What are we being healed of?

When it comes to salvation and healing of the soul (see all the previous episodes on the spiritual life), what exactly are we being healed of? Is it sin? Our hurts and brokenness? Our disillusionment? The early fathers of Christianity often spoke of healing in relation to "the passion". What did they mean by that?
Join Josh and Murray as they dive in to what the earliest "voices from the desert" had to say about healing of the soul.

For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/

For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/

Transcript

00;00;15;09 - 00;00;20;02
Joshua Hoffert
You.

00;00;20;05 - 00;00;21;11
Joshua Hoffert
Which is what he says.

00;00;21;11 - 00;00;26;22
Joshua Hoffert
What happens? Live here. Your desires for revenge. Try to cannibalize them.

00;00;26;24 - 00;00;31;18
Murray Dueck
For your own. And that's a great way to say it all the time.

00;00;31;20 - 00;00;36;06
Joshua Hoffert
You. Yes. That's a great mankind's turn as well.

00;00;36;07 - 00;00;59;02
Joshua Hoffert
Mankind's turn in upon himself. At that point.

00;00;59;04 - 00;01;00;25
Joshua Hoffert
You.

00;01;00;28 - 00;01;11;10
Joshua Hoffert
Welcome, everybody. For days. Desert. Desert doesn't desert. Oh. Now, if you.

00;01;11;12 - 00;01;18;08
Murray Dueck
If you know, that's the first time we have posted the hours at the same time, and it almost sounded like.

00;01;18;10 - 00;01;27;01
Joshua Hoffert
A chord or different. That humbles you. That's right. The first time. Yeah. Who was? Who was lead and who was rhythm and.

00;01;27;03 - 00;01;29;06
Murray Dueck
Dealt with our faith. Maybe. That's good. We're finally.

00;01;29;06 - 00;01;56;07
Joshua Hoffert
Here. Sorry. Yeah. There you go. Today's topic. That's right. It does fit into today's topic. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's absolutely right. I'm. I'm just thinking, you know, with our with the conversation we're planning on having today and seeing where it goes, hopefully, for, for anybody that's on our Anglican, Orthodox, Catholic track that maybe Saint Maximus will be with us today.

00;01;56;09 - 00;02;24;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. You know. Yes. Yeah. For any of our evangelical leaders. Yeah. For any of our for any of our evangelical or charismatic friends. We don't actually believe that stuff anyway. Yeah. And, on it. Yeah. Well, we'll walk the middle ground for everything. For everything. Right? Yeah. There you go. Yeah. One of my favorite books on, Praying the Scriptures is written by,

00;02;24;24 - 00;02;45;23
Joshua Hoffert
I sent you a copy of it. The lectio divina from Father Luke. Oh, yes. Yes. Hermitage, the hermitage in Nova Scotia. And, I thought, you know, I was thinking, I, I really would love to help him publish this book to a wider audience. Right. And then. But then I was thinking of my charismatic and evangelical friends.

00;02;45;23 - 00;03;05;08
Joshua Hoffert
When Father Luke is asking is telling you. Well, now ask Saint Paul to be with you as you read his book so he can explain them to you. And I thought, yeah, I know my evangelical charismatic friends would have, a bit of a problem with that one. So. Yes. Yeah. You know.

00;03;05;10 - 00;03;08;03
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Lots of stories of that, though, in the Desert Fathers.

00;03;08;04 - 00;03;09;11
Joshua Hoffert
That's true. Absolutely.

00;03;09;12 - 00;03;15;20
Murray Dueck
Anthony's asked about something about Moses. So he walks off into the desert. He goes, hey, Moses, what does this mean?

00;03;15;22 - 00;03;15;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;03;15;28 - 00;03;20;09
Murray Dueck
This voice goes, right. And there was it already said, but he's like, he comes back, okay, here's what he meant.

00;03;20;10 - 00;03;40;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. It's like, oh yeah, I like that word. I think on some level you've got you have to be okay with having room for mystery when it comes to all of these kind of things. And so to just go, you know, I mean that's, that's evil or to go wholesale, we can explain it perfectly is like, either way, I'm just.

00;03;40;22 - 00;03;55;08
Murray Dueck
You know, used to do an episode on saints because, you know, I'm just because, they show up a lot, but but I remember father Mike and I had this conversation. I at least I think it was father like, but it was someone in. And I said, okay, surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, you know, Hebrews, whatever.

00;03;55;08 - 00;03;58;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Which is where a lot of that idea would come from. Would be.

00;03;58;15 - 00;04;12;17
Murray Dueck
And I'm like, and here's the argument to, to rip that apart. Therefore you're surrounded by such great cloud. When you see the word therefore, you got to look back to see what it's there for. That's what you're taught. So Hebrews you know, 11 is specific guys. Abraham, Moses.

00;04;12;17 - 00;04;13;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right.

00;04;13;17 - 00;04;32;00
Murray Dueck
Right. It's not everybody. Yeah. And then each comment is really interesting. Oh well have you read further. Like what do you mean? He goes yeah. So you've come to Mount Zion to thousands of angels and joyful assembly to the church of the firstborn. I'm getting the order a bit wrong here. Yeah. To the spirits of righteous men made perfect.

00;04;32;02 - 00;04;37;01
Murray Dueck
So you've come to them too, right? It says it right there. Like, I didn't know that verse was there.

00;04;37;01 - 00;04;54;08
Joshua Hoffert
Actually, I think that's the funny part about why that's the fun part about all this stuff is, is what you and I, I think the journey we've been on for the last, you know what, 20, 20, 30 years for you and, you know, ten, 20 years for me now.

00;04;54;08 - 00;04;57;01
Murray Dueck
I've been doing the Jesus Prayer for 20 years. It's.

00;04;57;03 - 00;05;07;19
Joshua Hoffert
You know, it's like what we what we come across is a reading of the scriptures, just like you said. I don't remember that verse being in there. Right. Or I never read it.

00;05;07;19 - 00;05;08;16
Murray Dueck
Put that there.

00;05;08;19 - 00;05;10;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Who put that there? Or when I.

00;05;10;22 - 00;05;12;00
Murray Dueck
You never and.

00;05;12;02 - 00;05;28;08
Joshua Hoffert
I never thought about that, that were coming to the spirits of men. Righteous men made perfect. I just kind of thought, oh, you know, that's nice and lovely, but I think that there's angels we can be brought to, so why wouldn't I think that? So, you know, so it's like, oh, I hadn't really thought about that. Yeah.

00;05;28;08 - 00;05;31;23
Murray Dueck
It's right there in the text. That's,

00;05;31;25 - 00;05;54;18
Joshua Hoffert
That's what happens to us. We get, we get. Yeah. Stuck in the echo or theological echo chamber. And then we go, well, that's the only way to think and the only way to read the text. And we go, oh, we're just actually missing quite a bit of it. And, and that's been really helpful coming across the fathers and looking at, you know, Orthodox authors, Catholic authors, evangelical.

00;05;54;22 - 00;05;58;10
Murray Dueck
Yeah. I mean, the churches believe this stuff for thousands of years.

00;05;58;10 - 00;05;59;07
Joshua Hoffert
So, yeah, for sure.

00;05;59;13 - 00;06;10;07
Murray Dueck
That's the question. Why is it really a good question? Like what's your point of view here? And, and and there is a verse. There it is. And who would have known that was there these blind spots. You know, you just cut them out somehow.

00;06;10;09 - 00;06;33;10
Joshua Hoffert
I remember hearing a, I, this was just a someone was telling me about it, actually, there's a it's there was the I think it was the guy, the Orthodox priest. Saint Hermans of Alaska there in Langley. I think, can't remember his name. Father Farrelly, maybe, as I would have used. Yeah. Carly. Yeah. Farley.

00;06;33;10 - 00;06;40;19
Joshua Hoffert
Maybe. And he he was talking to a group of reformed students.

00;06;40;22 - 00;06;40;29
Murray Dueck
Nice.

00;06;41;06 - 00;07;00;14
Joshua Hoffert
At a reformed seminary. Yeah. And, and they were talking. They were asking him, like, why do you guys think. What, like you guys talk to dead people? Like, isn't that necromancy? And he goes, you guys talk to dead people all the time, and the students go, what are you talking about? And he says, have you ever had a conversation with someone on the street?

00;07;00;14 - 00;07;23;09
Joshua Hoffert
And they're like, well, yeah, of course. They said, well, they're dead in their trespasses. You talk to people all the time. Who's more alive? Those that are with Jesus are those that are walking the streets that don't know him. And I was like, like, oh my goodness. My head. Just like, yeah, you're like, oh, so those are that's what we mean is that we're, we're looking at the scriptures and we're trying to bring a fresh lens.

00;07;23;11 - 00;07;30;15
Joshua Hoffert
Our peel back the lens and go, what have we missed in here? And so that in a way brings us to the topic of the day, right? Yes.

00;07;30;19 - 00;07;36;26
Murray Dueck
Is I love this topic. We can just keep going on it. But let's let's leave this for another day. Yeah, that's enough for everyone.

00;07;36;26 - 00;07;37;19
Joshua Hoffert
To me. I mean.

00;07;37;19 - 00;07;49;04
Murray Dueck
If you want to dig around on this a little bit, there is a good blog if you can find it by somebody by the name of if I remember correctly, Lynnette Furner h o r n r Lynette Horner.

00;07;49;08 - 00;07;49;21
Joshua Hoffert
Okay.

00;07;49;21 - 00;08;07;18
Murray Dueck
And if you she was an evangelical that became orthodox. If I remember she put out a couple really good posts on Mary and on Saints part one and part two on Saints and on Mary, that if I was having a talk, I would probably just quote those things anyway. So if you're interested. Yeah, go dig them up there.

00;08;07;18 - 00;08;08;19
Murray Dueck
It's worth your time.

00;08;08;21 - 00;08;22;22
Joshua Hoffert
All right, I if I can find a link I'll put it in the, video in the description. Really well done. Yeah. Because we're I mean, we're always what I'm interested in is being challenged in my presuppositions. Yeah, yeah.

00;08;22;24 - 00;08;33;21
Murray Dueck
And that that will definitely do that. And her coming from a charismatic evangelical background can explain it. Okay. Here's why they do it. It's really it's worth your time if you're interested like into into that kind of thing.

00;08;33;21 - 00;09;04;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. You know this in a way from speaking on the in the charismatic world, there's most charismatic people wouldn't have a problem with you know, a deceased prophetic figure showing up to you in a dream absence, providing insight and wisdom and going, oh, there's much in the Kingdom of God that remains a mystery to us. And, so anyway, I just I think that we've all got our own, peculiar ways of reading scripture and I want to be challenged and see a broader picture.

00;09;04;23 - 00;09;09;13
Joshua Hoffert
And, you know, like I said, in a way, that's what we're doing today when we talk about the passions.

00;09;09;15 - 00;09;11;13
Murray Dueck
Okay, let's get in it.

00;09;11;16 - 00;09;39;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Well, we, we essentially we left off last week and we were talking about, there's a difference between covering a wound and pretending it's not there, which is essentially when our, our, the, the aim of our Christianity is saving as many people as possible versus the journey of healing. We cover the wound and pretend there's no longer a wound.

00;09;39;01 - 00;09;49;24
Joshua Hoffert
There, and then it festers and it's not taken care of. And there's no the process never plays out. So we talked about that. Yeah. Maybe you could be.

00;09;49;24 - 00;10;00;23
Murray Dueck
Sure that story one more time, Josh, because I think it's going to be a good anchor point for where we're going here today of. Yeah, you cut your arm on that under the carriage of the car there.

00;10;00;26 - 00;10;27;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. I was saying I, I was, bouncing a volleyball and it kind of careened off of a rock and went rolling underneath our old Jeep Cherokee. And I reached under to pull it out from the back of the vehicle and ended up slicing my arm open on the, on the exhaust pipe. And, and I didn't actually even realize how deep the cut was until I got inside and realized I'd cut it down to the fat layer roof.

00;10;27;10 - 00;10;53;05
Joshua Hoffert
And, so my mom, you know, took me. I was probably 15. Yeah. I wouldn't have been even 16 at that point because I wasn't driving. Wow. So I would be 14, 15 and grabbed a towel and put it over the wound and had to wait in the air, and they had to give me a bunch of, you know, local Novocain shots to to freeze the skin.

00;10;53;05 - 00;11;23;10
Joshua Hoffert
And then they did two layers of stitches, about 20 or 30 stitches and about as many shots all the way around the inside and the outside of the wound to pull it together. Right. So the reflection last week was if I just put the if I leave the towel over the wound and then open it up every now and then to try and convince people that it's that it's healed, it just ends up spraying blood on people or being infected and getting worse and worse and more, more painful to the touch.

00;11;23;12 - 00;11;51;23
Joshua Hoffert
But there's an actual process to the wound being healed and that's, you know, covering it at first and then exposing it to the doctors and then letting the doctors, medicate, medicated and then having them tend to it and dress it and cover it. And then eventually the wound slowly heals and so there's a process to healing and, and actually the word for salvation in Scripture, the Greek word sozo literally means to be healed.

00;11;51;25 - 00;12;25;09
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, wow. The process of salvation is a process of healing. So the question is, you know, I think we talked we we posed the question last week, why does all this even matter? Yes. And then the the question that we're really addressing this week is, what are we building? What are we being healed of? And because most people in our circles would just kind of, maybe blithely say sin or our hurts, right?

00;12;25;09 - 00;12;43;23
Joshua Hoffert
And, you know, oh, for sure, that would that would have been, that would be, you know, the traumas of our of our life or the, the, you know, the, the sin nature would be healed of. But the fathers had a bit of a different idea when it came to the journey of healing and what we're being healed of.

00;12;43;25 - 00;13;03;06
Joshua Hoffert
And it's summed up in this word that we're going to talk through today called the passions. And so we want to talk about today's what what what is that? What are the passions? What do we mean when we say the passions? And maybe you've heard what we're not talking about. Being passionate about something. Yeah.

00;13;03;12 - 00;13;12;25
Murray Dueck
I'm all for this ministry. I'm passionate for Jesus. That is not the definition of the word that we, that we or the Jesuit fathers are using, especially today.

00;13;12;28 - 00;13;25;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. In, in, in a, in just in a rough way. I mean, to the to be to have a passion means to feel strongly about something. Right. So in, in one sense, there is.

00;13;25;09 - 00;13;26;08
Murray Dueck
A 30,000ft.

00;13;26;08 - 00;13;54;05
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Yeah. Yeah. In the. Yeah. Exactly. There's the passions are feeling strongly about something but they're not. They're the word passion has a particular theological, underpinning and so much so that in the, in the contemplative way there, there's a term that you'll come across occasionally and the state of it can be something like there's a state of spiritual maturity is to be dispassionate.

00;13;54;07 - 00;14;21;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. Right. And I remember the first time I came across that term, I was like, especially in my charismatic background. Right. Well, no, we've got to be passionate. We can't be. Yes. That's right, that's right. And so what do they mean, dispassion? Like, you know, we're in worship and we're expressing ourselves and we're passionate about Jesus. And well, that's not really what is meant by that.

00;14;21;06 - 00;14;30;17
Joshua Hoffert
And there's a lot more nuance to it. So Murray, in a, in a nutshell, what would you say? What do we mean when we say the passions?

00;14;30;19 - 00;14;37;08
Murray Dueck
Wow. Okay. So everyone you could.

00;14;37;11 - 00;15;01;02
Murray Dueck
It's a, you know, a little bit of a tough word to define. I would actually even say you're you're looking at habitual patterns of sin in the personality that are the result of the fall. So I again try I needed to find this in such a way that. I would think that we.

00;15;01;02 - 00;15;04;12
Joshua Hoffert
All,

00;15;04;14 - 00;15;27;11
Murray Dueck
It's hard to put this in the sentence, everyone, let's just, let's just say that that because of the fall, our souls. Now, instead of looking to the Lord for peace and life and getting a identity, we'll see this even in the in the fall with Adam, suddenly he's hiding. Suddenly he's blame shifting. He even blames God, according to the fathers.

00;15;27;13 - 00;15;54;09
Murray Dueck
You know the woman you put here with me, right? She that you did this by putting this woman here, you know, and and and so we see these patterns in the human heart, right? Patterns that are that can be kind and they. They empower sin. How about that? They are a result of the fall, but they're also the result of our own brokenness, our own, maybe even our own personality type.

00;15;54;09 - 00;16;20;24
Murray Dueck
I would think a little bit, family patterns, they're ingrained ways of doing things, like what you said about the law of sin and death. I would almost say that that there are these, these things inside of us that are deeply broken, that actually empower our sin. Right? So if I am feeling neglected, I might get angry, but it's the feeling of the neglect that's empowering my anger.

00;16;21;01 - 00;16;21;20
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;16;21;23 - 00;16;23;07
Murray Dueck
If I am feeling the.

00;16;23;07 - 00;16;29;08
Joshua Hoffert
Sin is when you lash out in the anger. Yeah, that's the passion and the passion in the center. Two different things.

00;16;29;15 - 00;16;49;20
Murray Dueck
That's right. There are two different things I could, be out of. I could be afraid. I could be afraid of of running out of money. So I may go steal something, right? Or covet something. My brother has a coven. This is a sin. The stealing would be the sin. But the fear is something in my heart that I believe to be true.

00;16;49;22 - 00;17;18;05
Murray Dueck
That rises up under pressure, that is unhealed. It needs healing. It needs to be transformed. And it's that brokenness, that level of, healing is empowering my sin nature. I could be a leader in the church, and, I might not, I might be getting my identity from, people liking my good sermons. Right. And let's say I don't prepare enough or I don't have time.

00;17;18;05 - 00;17;40;28
Murray Dueck
I have a bad sermon and nobody likes it. And then I have this feeling of rejection or, I didn't fulfill my destiny. I'm not living up to the standard that I have. Right? So therefore I get angry, I get judgmental. But that underlying passion there of I need a identity from what I do would be a passion.

00;17;40;28 - 00;18;07;08
Murray Dueck
And it starts to drive my judgment and my and my, performance. Right. So these underlying rooted condition of the soul that are not connected to the Lord, but are connected now to self for, a sense of purpose, a sense of of boundary, a sense of of progress or failure or success.

00;18;07;11 - 00;18;08;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;18;08;04 - 00;18;13;22
Murray Dueck
The passion, if you want to put it that way. If I wanted to boil it down, I'd still not quite right, but. Well, that helps.

00;18;13;28 - 00;18;24;07
Joshua Hoffert
I think if we. Yeah, that's super helpful. And because we can, we can build off of there too. If we, we can take an even you know, we're at 30,000. Let's go 50,000. Right.

00;18;24;14 - 00;18;25;10
Murray Dueck
That might be helpful.

00;18;25;13 - 00;18;54;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So maybe we'll see. That's for me. Or maybe that's where air starts to thin out and we start. That's right. And. Yeah. So, so the the passions are, like you said, mercy. The passions are the result of the fall. But if we look at the makeup of man, the makeup of man is not absent. Passionate display the makeup of man in in a sense, man has a sensual nature from the get go.

00;18;54;21 - 00;19;22;03
Joshua Hoffert
Because God has a sensual nature, sensual in the sense of, you know, sensual kind of takes on a connotation today that maybe that's very more, provocative. Right? But that's not what we mean. We mean the ability or capacity of the human to have to emote and have affection. So, human, human humankind is made that way from the beginning.

00;19;22;06 - 00;19;46;27
Joshua Hoffert
And this is where God looks at humanity. He looks at Adam and he says, it's not good that he's alone. Yes, but he needs someone to walk with him. He and the. And, you know, Adam recognizes the passion for, even names her Eve. Right? This is bone of my bone. Flesh of my flesh. So Adam, from the get go has an affection for even Eve for Adam.

00;19;46;27 - 00;20;14;21
Joshua Hoffert
This is a good, healthy, beautiful thing because mankind is created with the sensual nature. Just like God has a sexual nature. He has an affection, an emotion, and a, part of the being of God is the expression of his wants, desires and wishes. And we can see that in the person of Jesus. To Jesus had, he had great the motive and a great a motive aspect to himself.

00;20;14;21 - 00;20;40;25
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Is he, you know, is moved at the plight of the woman with the issue of blood. He gets angry at the, the man with the withered hand. When the Pharisees don't want him to be healed on the Sabbath, he, he rejoices exceedingly. I think it's in John 17. Over the disciples. He weeps at the tomb of Lazarus.

00;20;40;25 - 00;21;12;24
Joshua Hoffert
Right. We see this emotive, affectionate, display of Jesus. And so it's not a when we talk about passions, it's not a lack of passions, it's not a lack of passion. It's the the sensual aspect of mankind, the emotive affection aspect of mankind that gets completely twisted in itself as a result of the fall. That's right. The fathers, they look at that, that emotive, desiring, and even the rational aspect.

00;21;12;24 - 00;21;35;20
Joshua Hoffert
Right. The ability to think and and process and express, I mean, Jesus, God is described as the, the word right, the ability to express oneself in being and form and function. So mankind is a reflection of God, expresses himself in rational thought and modes himself and has affection. And we see that right from the get go in his.

00;21;35;21 - 00;21;53;22
Joshua Hoffert
You know what we would imagine, Adam? The tenderness of naming each one of the creatures and the emotive aspect of that, and the rational aspect of that, coming up with a name and, and all of this. Right. We see this in Adam as well as a reflection of God. I see it in Jesus as the picture of God.

00;21;53;25 - 00;22;06;29
Joshua Hoffert
So the the fathers would say, when we look back at this, we can look at someone like Basil, or actually we can look at someone like, yeah, well, just look at Basil. I've got a quote that's a good quote. I like that doctor up right here. Just to just to.

00;22;06;29 - 00;22;08;25
Murray Dueck
Help trying to find a quote as we're talking.

00;22;08;29 - 00;22;09;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's.

00;22;09;15 - 00;22;11;26
Murray Dueck
Driving me crazy.

00;22;11;29 - 00;22;31;17
Joshua Hoffert
Basil said this, he said, and I want to go through a few different things that Basil said and that, Isaiah of Skyy to said to, you know, voices from the desert. Isaiah and Basil were both considered desert fathers. Basil said this first, the power to rule was conferred on you. Oh, human, you are a ruling being.

00;22;31;19 - 00;23;02;04
Joshua Hoffert
Why do you serve the passions as a slave? Why do you throw away your own dignity and become a slave of sin? For what reason do you make yourself a prisoner of the devil? You were appointed ruler of creation and you have renounced the nobility of your own nature. So what? What Basil saying is that we have become something that we are not, that we are initially given a nobility and a dignity and Jesus comes and restores that nobility in that dignity.

00;23;02;07 - 00;23;23;14
Joshua Hoffert
But we forsake it by becoming a slave of the passions, and we become a slave of the passions, so much so that we end up in sin. And and this is what Paul, he talks about this in Romans seven, which we'll get to as well. That's by by coveting leads me to sinning. And the covet covetousness would be a passion.

00;23;23;17 - 00;23;49;22
Joshua Hoffert
And, so I'm going to go through a few different things that Isaiah says. Just to give you even more context for this, Isaiah says, I do not want you to be neglectful, my brothers, that in the beginning, when God formed Adam, he placed him in Paradise with good senses that were formed in accord with nature or the ability to express himself, or the ability to be affectionately fond, as he is with Eve, as he is with the animals, as he is with God.

00;23;49;24 - 00;24;18;28
Joshua Hoffert
The ability to rationally express himself. And, when he names Eve and he names the animals and he prophesies over Eve. So we see this this, natural state of Adam is not like when he's innocent. It doesn't mean he's ignorant in the sense of, he has no thought or desire or affection. He has. All those things is a reflection of God, who we see embodying those things.

00;24;19;00 - 00;24;40;20
Joshua Hoffert
So, Isaiah, he goes on and he says, desire is the normal state of the mind. For without desire for God, no love exists. So the point he's making is that you can't actually love or pursue God without the natural state of what we would call what the fathers would call passions. But that in the natural state, right?

00;24;40;20 - 00;24;47;22
Joshua Hoffert
Desire for God is a beautiful thing. But lust of the flesh is the twisted, manipulated version. That's right.

00;24;47;28 - 00;24;50;12
Murray Dueck
That's the all is done to mankind.

00;24;50;13 - 00;24;50;26
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly.

00;24;50;26 - 00;24;51;27
Murray Dueck
Twisted.

00;24;51;28 - 00;24;52;10
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;24;52;10 - 00;25;12;02
Murray Dueck
Which means healing. And I'm just going to add. Yeah, Josh is going to keep going here. Does everybody just think about this again. Is the church is a place of healing like like again it's we think of sin as okay, well justice now God's going to punish me, right? Instead of going, okay, now what's in the heart here that needs to be healed?

00;25;12;06 - 00;25;14;00
Murray Dueck
So the sin goes away?

00;25;14;02 - 00;25;14;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, right.

00;25;14;21 - 00;25;27;06
Murray Dueck
That there has to be a deeper view. So we're looking at there are these things were good in their intent, but it become twisted. How do they get healed by the church and walking with God. So they go back to the original purpose.

00;25;27;12 - 00;25;28;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah that's right. Okay.

00;25;28;22 - 00;25;30;14
Murray Dueck
Sorry, sorry. Keep going. I just wonder. Yeah.

00;25;30;16 - 00;25;31;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's it.

00;25;31;03 - 00;25;32;21
Murray Dueck
Think of it that way as you're listening to this.

00;25;32;21 - 00;26;09;00
Joshua Hoffert
That's right, that's right. It it it I mean human procreation, which God says from the get go, be fruitful and multiply. Meaning, you know, and he gave mankind a sex drive, right? A desire for procreation. So that's a good and holy and healthy thing, multiply and fill the whole earth with image bearers of me. That's the that's the call of mankind is to, you know, to be moved by desire to beautify the earth, you know?

00;26;09;02 - 00;26;33;07
Joshua Hoffert
So, one of the things I remember a quote from a, psychologist, Dan Allander is a Christian psychologist. He said, and I think this is in the book The heart or the not the book, the movie documentary. The Heart of Man. Great documentary for anybody that wants a good documentary on sexual brokenness. Is he said lust is desire gone mad?

00;26;33;09 - 00;27;02;16
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, such a good way of describing that. Desire in its natural state is a beautiful, healthy, holy thing. Man desires. Eve. Right. God desires that man would have a partner. God desires man. Man desires God. This is all beautiful things. These are all the natural state of humanity, right? Yes. When lust enters the picture that man desires woman, woman or woman desires man for their own end, not for the beauty inherent in the thing.

00;27;02;24 - 00;27;21;18
Murray Dueck
You know that. That reminds me, I quite a long time ago, I was flipping channels. I don't even have a TV anymore. But back in the day and this tattoo show came up, you know, you know, one of these real life kind of things, and they're interviewing people coming in here getting tattoos. So, okay, I'll watch this. So this guy was getting this tattoo over his heart or something.

00;27;21;18 - 00;27;39;26
Murray Dueck
And the, you know, the tattoo artist said, so why are you in here doing this? Because, well, I and this guy's pretty honest on camera. I, I've really overcome an addiction to port Ography. And I'm celebrating by getting this tattoo and the camera cuts to the tattoo artist face like he's got this really puzzled look, like what? You know?

00;27;39;29 - 00;27;53;17
Murray Dueck
And as the guy walks out with his new tattoo and he thanks everybody, the tattoo artist says to his buddy, that's that was kind of weird. I thought photography was a hobby. I didn't know. It was like like just his view of sin.

00;27;53;18 - 00;27;55;06
Joshua Hoffert
It's like, right?

00;27;55;08 - 00;28;00;12
Murray Dueck
No, this is something that used to be rooted out of significant internal brokenness.

00;28;00;17 - 00;28;01;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. You know.

00;28;01;27 - 00;28;21;24
Murray Dueck
That desire needs to be changed. And and, and again, it's funny that certain, you know, certain things that we see is really, really horrible and need to be changed. But other words in the church, like gossiping, judging one another. And they'll anger, self-pity.

00;28;21;27 - 00;28;22;06
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;28;22;09 - 00;28;24;05
Murray Dueck
They also need to be healed. Right.

00;28;24;05 - 00;28;27;11
Joshua Hoffert
And so, like.

00;28;27;13 - 00;28;33;26
Murray Dueck
Anyway, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I just it's such a funny thing. I saw these guys looked at each other like.

00;28;33;28 - 00;28;55;23
Joshua Hoffert
It's a great point. Maybe. Like what? Like, well, it's a great point, because. And part of that is that even as we're talking about the passions, like some of these concepts are totally new to some of our listeners. Yeah, they're they're just the same way the guy goes, wait, I didn't know that was an issue. Yeah. Right. Like, yeah.

00;28;55;23 - 00;29;25;06
Joshua Hoffert
So so some of our, some of our listeners are go wow with the passions. I, you know, I thought Christianity was we're going to conquer the earth. And you know, we get everybody to say the sinner's prayer. And but there's other other thought processes go and everything. And so, so here's, here's one way we can characterize this that I think would be helpful for people to, when Adam names Eve, he says, you know, this is bone in my bone, flesh of my flesh.

00;29;25;06 - 00;29;45;07
Joshua Hoffert
I was just looking it up to refresh my memory. It says A man. Therefore, a man will leave mother and father and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh right. So there's there is desire inherent in that statement. Yes. And the reason why they're joined is to create something new, right? They become one flesh.

00;29;45;07 - 00;30;12;00
Joshua Hoffert
They become one. It's not, that one subsumes the other and overwhelms the other, right? They become one flesh. And this is the whole the whole point perfectly equal and, and complementing forces, man and woman. Right. They become one flesh. So this is desire in a natural state. That's beauty and good, beautiful and good and holy. They create something new.

00;30;12;03 - 00;30;42;01
Joshua Hoffert
One flesh. Versus the ramifications of the fall. Genesis three. When God says to Eve, your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you. Now, we've gotten that natural state twisted because of what's happened. Yeah. All right. So no longer is it we come together in unity in unison to produce something new. Now it's,

00;30;42;04 - 00;31;21;02
Joshua Hoffert
Your desire will be for him. Not your desire will be for the the one flesh. Right. That's the the desire for the one flesh, the union. Your desire will be for him and he'll rule over you. So totally changes and twists. What the initial attractive element was. Yes. Right. The initial attracted that it was, And in a way it's a, it's the, the, the one flesh is a picture of union with, you know, the, the, the term, the term that they'll become one flesh is used throughout the Old Testament to talk about God and his relation to his people.

00;31;21;05 - 00;31;51;01
Joshua Hoffert
So it's a picture of that. And now we get the twisted version of this is, you know, desire for that person to come into your life, not desire to create something new and beautiful. So you can see both the same thing. They're both essentially the same source. One's become twisted. And the father's call that the passions one is called the natural state, which is desire for union and love and procreation.

00;31;51;04 - 00;32;08;03
Joshua Hoffert
So desire is a good thing, but lust is when it becomes twisted. And now I use and so lust is I cannibalize that thing for my own need, which is what he says happens with Eve here. Your desires for your man, and he'll rule over you, right? You cannibalize that person for your own needs.

00;32;08;05 - 00;32;13;07
Murray Dueck
And that's a great way to say it with with all the passions, in a way, our own need.

00;32;13;09 - 00;32;13;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

00;32;13;19 - 00;32;15;06
Murray Dueck
That that's a great.

00;32;15;08 - 00;32;40;25
Joshua Hoffert
Mankind's turned well, mankind's turned in upon himself at that point, rather than looking at God and receiving life and sustenance from God. Mankind is now, you know, just just well, like I said, mankind begins to cannibalize everything around him, right? And and he says the same thing about man. He says you're going to have to work in order to eat.

00;32;40;25 - 00;32;54;08
Joshua Hoffert
You're going to have to cannibalize all of creation to sustain you to man. So man's whole role is completely shift not because of something God did, but because something man did. Yeah, right. This is this is the fall.

00;32;54;11 - 00;33;02;06
Murray Dueck
And I, you know, and I think what I originally heard, the Lord saying these things to Adam and Eve, how I was tired, it's like, well, now I'm putting judgment on you on judging.

00;33;02;06 - 00;33;02;14
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;33;02;20 - 00;33;04;03
Murray Dueck
Here's what you're going to get.

00;33;04;05 - 00;33;04;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;33;04;18 - 00;33;15;27
Murray Dueck
And and that's not what's going on here. It's, it's Lord saying, well, unfortunately this is the you're going to reap what you sow here. This is how it's going to go now in a broken world. He's making.

00;33;15;29 - 00;33;49;26
Joshua Hoffert
Mistakes. Exactly. Fact is it right is see, I think and this is, this is something that always got me it growing up in evangelical church is why was it's like was sin added as an extra element into Adam and Eve that now needs to be removed? No, actually the natural state of mankind has been corrupted away from. Well, here's here's an interesting thing, actually, in Genesis 322 it says, the Lord God said, behold, the man has become like one of us to know good and evil.

00;33;49;26 - 00;34;11;24
Joshua Hoffert
And now, lest he put out his hand, and take also the tree of life, and eat and live forever. Therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So mankind was, the corrupting element of mankind was not an additional element that was added to him. The corrupting element was the removal of the sustaining force of life.

00;34;11;24 - 00;34;27;04
Joshua Hoffert
Mankind became so twisted. Yeah, became depraved and became. Now, because I no longer have access to the tree of life, I actually have to cannibalize everything around me to sustain myself because I no longer have the sustenance of him. Right.

00;34;27;08 - 00;34;31;20
Murray Dueck
You know, that reminds me of this quote, which we just kind of fell into here.

00;34;31;21 - 00;34;32;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, go for it.

00;34;32;19 - 00;34;40;20
Murray Dueck
I shall read out of a book, entitled Orthodox Psychotherapy The Science of the fathers, which I can't say that.

00;34;40;20 - 00;34;43;11
Joshua Hoffert
I,

00;34;43;13 - 00;34;48;28
Murray Dueck
I understood half of it, but. Okay, let's give me a second here.

00;34;49;00 - 00;34;54;02
Joshua Hoffert
Doo doo doo doo doo. Okay.

00;34;54;04 - 00;34;54;15
Murray Dueck
Should I.

00;34;54;15 - 00;34;57;13
Joshua Hoffert
Speak while you're while. Oh, here we go. Yeah. You got it. Okay, I got it.

00;34;57;14 - 00;35;16;15
Murray Dueck
Okay. So, according to the teaching, this is, again from the book I just mentioned. According to the teachings of the fathers, the passions are divided into those of the body and those of the soul. Soul has its related passions. So you think anger, you think lust. And the. And you know, the body, you know, drunkenness, sleeping.

00;35;16;15 - 00;35;18;07
Joshua Hoffert
Around, right?

00;35;18;09 - 00;35;43;09
Murray Dueck
Balboa, gluttony, etc. before. But so here we go. Before the fall, man's soul was open to God and nourished by God's grace. Certainly man would have to struggle to reach full communion and union with God. But even at that time he tasted the grace of God. Thus the soul was nourished by uncreated grace, and the body was nourished by the soul, filled with grace.

00;35;43;12 - 00;36;01;22
Murray Dueck
So God in the soul is poured out to the body. Everybody's happy. The whole man tasted the gifts of God since the fall. The soul separated from God, the real source of life. Quoting the file. Okay. Leah here.

00;36;01;25 - 00;36;17;12
Murray Dueck
Let's see here. Thus the soul. I should have put my glasses on. Thus the soul was nourished by and created grace. And the body was nourished by the soul filled with grace. The whole man tasted the gifts of God. Since the fall, the soul separated from God. The real source of life in quotes seeks nourishment from the body.

00;36;17;14 - 00;36;36;27
Murray Dueck
In this way the passions of the soul are born, so can't get God anymore. So now it's gonna turn to other stuff. The body for its part in part not finding life in the soul, turns towards external things and as is natural, becomes enslaved to matter and in prison in the cycle of corruption. That's the pleasure loving body.

00;36;36;29 - 00;36;44;12
Murray Dueck
But sorry. Thus the pleasant, loving bodily passions appear whereby men struggle to draw a life in joy for material things.

00;36;44;19 - 00;36;44;28
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;36;44;28 - 00;37;11;03
Murray Dueck
This is a death of the body, and especially if the soul. If, however, through asceticism and prayer and the life in Christ, we make the effort to turn our souls towards God in order to be nourished by him. The body is that then nourished by the soul, filled with grace, and thus the whole man is sanctified. We see this in the saints of the church, in whom, during theory all the bodily functions are suspended.

00;37;11;05 - 00;37;22;08
Murray Dueck
So in other words, they get to such a point they're not tempted by nothing anymore, because they're just busy beholding the divine love of God. And can stay there. In theory, of course.

00;37;22;10 - 00;37;25;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah, that that's very good.

00;37;25;10 - 00;37;51;04
Murray Dueck
But if you think everybody think about, Oh, somebody who is afraid or somebody who's insecure or somebody think about those things. Right. And let's say it's just particularly bad, you know, somebody insulted them or they've run out of money or okay, well, now they could you they could use the body to negate those feelings. They could.

00;37;51;07 - 00;37;51;17
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;37;51;17 - 00;38;11;22
Murray Dueck
Have to drink. Go, go. You know, medicate with alcohol. They can medicate with drugs. They could, need to go on holiday. Suddenly. I just need to go on a trip. They could. Right? They need to satiate it somehow. Right. So instead of healing the cause, they're. They're working on bandages, right? They're just.

00;38;11;22 - 00;38;12;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;38;12;18 - 00;38;14;08
Murray Dueck
Trying to put a bandage on things. Yeah.

00;38;14;08 - 00;38;39;03
Joshua Hoffert
The cause is that mankind has lost, or that individual has lost sight of the face of God in perfect trust and in perfect love. He's got me. This is Jesus's call to humanity, to re-embrace looking to the father for everything, right? He says this in Matthew six. We're going back to Matthew six again, right? Matthew six, the end of Matthew six, the result of the inner way.

00;38;39;05 - 00;39;01;21
Joshua Hoffert
Right? When you go into your closet, when you pray, you go in your closet. No, our father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Those who are of one eye are full of great light. Yes. Right. Going down into now, God's going to take care of you. And so all the things you try to add to yourself.

00;39;01;21 - 00;39;25;12
Joshua Hoffert
Who? Who? Jesus says it specifically, who can make anxiety. Take care of yourself. Right. It says that. Has anxiety ever helped you and added a day to your life, right? So he goes rather seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. So he's drawing people back to that place of loving union and gazing on the father, right?

00;39;25;12 - 00;39;48;11
Joshua Hoffert
Whereas in the fall of Adam he goes, Adam, you're gonna have to kill the earth. Eve, you're going to love your husband right now. You've lost sight of the face of God because you've removed yourself from that place of union and, being captivated by his glory. Yeah. So now you try and find things to placate that. That's exactly what we see in the fall.

00;39;48;13 - 00;40;08;20
Joshua Hoffert
The twisted ness of human nature, all that, like human nature, didn't change. It became twisted. It was still the same. Still the same things like Isaiah goes on and he talks about how the natural form of the mind is ambition, because without ambition there's no advancement towards God. How could you ever, without ambition, not move towards God? So like like, oh, ambition is evil.

00;40;08;20 - 00;40;38;10
Joshua Hoffert
No, no no no. The am using ambition to again, cannibalizing everything around you to build yourself versus ambition for desiring God and moving towards him. Ambition and becoming good, okay. And becoming like him. Exactly. Ambition is a good and healthy thing. God gave mankind an ambition to subdue the earth. This is, he told him from the get go, subdue the earth and, be fruitful and multiply and so he gave man ambition in his command.

00;40;38;12 - 00;40;42;12
Joshua Hoffert
Mankind takes his ambition and uses it to serve his own ends.

00;40;42;14 - 00;40;50;13
Murray Dueck
So I know the Desert Fathers are fond of quoting that anger is. It is right and holy. Yeah. You use it against the devil.

00;40;50;20 - 00;40;51;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's right.

00;40;51;18 - 00;40;53;13
Murray Dueck
Lads, I mean it. It's there for you to go.

00;40;53;13 - 00;40;55;02
Joshua Hoffert
No, that's right.

00;40;55;05 - 00;40;58;26
Murray Dueck
I will. I mean, it has a purpose that inside of you be based because you're caught.

00;40;58;28 - 00;40;59;12
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;40;59;15 - 00;41;06;03
Murray Dueck
Not to follow the enemy. That when you're, you're living out of your core value, when the enemy does something, you're like, I will not succumb.

00;41;06;03 - 00;41;29;16
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. That's Isaiah is the very next one. Yeah. Oh, Isaiah Titus anger as well as the normal state of the mind. And you're like what? That makes me angry. Yeah. Why does that make you angry? Anger as well as the normal state of the mind. Because lacking anger were unable to achieve purity unless we're angered by all that is planted in us, by the adversary.

00;41;29;18 - 00;41;50;04
Joshua Hoffert
So. So imagine if Adam and Eve got angry with the devil that he could possibly designed to take away their gaze towards God. Yeah, that changes everything I had. I had a dream one time, years ago, where I was approached by a, a spiritual father type in my life in the dream, and he said to me, you know what, Josh?

00;41;50;04 - 00;42;19;26
Joshua Hoffert
You need to get angry at everything that would hold you back. And and that's the normal state. That's like like Isaiah says, the natural state of anger is having it, having it fueled towards what the devil would do to destroy your life and what the devil would do to destroy the lives of others as well. You know, that's a little bit more nuanced, too, because, you know, all of a sudden we think we're helping other people, but really we're turned them down.

00;42;19;26 - 00;42;27;11
Joshua Hoffert
So this is where things get pretty confusing, because you get human, a desire in there, you get motives and all of that. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

00;42;27;12 - 00;42;39;29
Murray Dueck
Well, you know, if you don't mind, I'll share shared story. I wanted to share previously when we're talking about the church as a hospital which which again, everybody. You know, the church is a place where the person should be being healed.

00;42;40;04 - 00;42;40;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;42;40;28 - 00;43;02;18
Murray Dueck
So and I just a difference between because if you're not looking at the passions as being the things that feed sin, and you just look at somebody for the sin that they're doing, we can really go to judgment. Well, look at this guy's doing this, that guy's doing that. And then we're falling into a passion ourself of judgment.

00;43;02;20 - 00;43;02;28
Murray Dueck
Right?

00;43;03;05 - 00;43;09;20
Joshua Hoffert
And our prescription for healing is, a legal transaction.

00;43;09;22 - 00;43;29;14
Murray Dueck
Yes. Right. Exactly. Suddenly it's a it's a legal transaction. So. So I was doing this tune God Rock back in the day. So we're doing this outreach, you know, with this church service for street kids basically. Right. And so you got a couple hundred kids there. And in walks this young guy, he's about 18, six foot two big guy wearing jackboots.

00;43;29;17 - 00;43;47;28
Murray Dueck
You know, I can't remember head shaved, big punk thing going on this back in like 96, 97. Pretty old Nance and seen that long ago. But and he's angry he's standing there I mean his life goal was to move to South Africa and join a white militia. It's pretty angry guy, you know. And you could feel it, you know, like, oh boy, what's who's this guy?

00;43;47;28 - 00;44;11;25
Murray Dueck
And he'd stand there in the middle of the room with his arms crossed, glowering at everybody. And he's pretty tall and and at that time, everybody was just, you know what? You'd pagans feel like you. So everybody would dance around. They would put their hands on him. It was pretty funny, but you just glowering, right? So about three weeks in, he's back and he's got his poles of anger, and suddenly the presence of God comes on him and he folds over like a hinge.

00;44;12;01 - 00;44;27;03
Murray Dueck
His feet come out from under him, and he falls right on his shaved head, bang! Big goose egg on the cement floor and man full on demonic. I've never seen it quite this bad. Demonic manifestation is either rolled back in his head, he's foaming at the mouth like, and people are freaking out, right?

00;44;27;09 - 00;44;27;18
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;44;27;18 - 00;44;40;27
Murray Dueck
So we drag him into the back room. I know his name is Curtis now. I mean, it could have been Conrad. Bit of an argument about that, but I, you know, and he's so angry, he's like raging and and so I have him in the house, in my office. I've got a couple of guys with me. Guys, you know.

00;44;40;27 - 00;44;58;05
Murray Dueck
Curtis, what's going on, what's going on? And all he's saying is that we're dad and he's like, oh, dad, kill you, I'll kill you and set about, you know? And the Lord finally says, just get him to say about his dad what he needs to say. Curtis, what do you need to say? He freaks out. He starts punching the walls and screaming it.

00;44;58;07 - 00;45;18;00
Murray Dueck
I mean, all the anger you felt before now is, oh, there it is, right? And and after about 30s of this, he falls into the ground and he curls up in a little fetal position. He starts to weep like a little baby, and he's like, dad, you know, why have you kicked me out of the house? I'm living on the streets, living in a cardboard box.

00;45;18;03 - 00;45;27;07
Murray Dueck
I'm so alone. Nobody loves me. And he's weeping and weeping. The Lord says you deal with all that pain. The anger will go away, right?

00;45;27;11 - 00;45;28;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;45;28;13 - 00;45;48;12
Murray Dueck
Because all the pain, that's all the passion. That's that stuff. Right? Right. But when we look at another human being and go, wow, that's an angry person. And we don't realize the wounding of this stuff, that's empowering it. And we step into judgment without seeing the process that's going on in people's hearts, even our own. We go to judgment.

00;45;48;12 - 00;45;49;13
Murray Dueck
We go to law.

00;45;49;15 - 00;45;50;05
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Right.

00;45;50;06 - 00;46;10;08
Murray Dueck
Instead of healing the passion that's there. And so for Curtis, of course, we he got saved, which is great. Got him a place to live. And you know what? He came back two weeks later. People didn't recognize it. You know, he she did. You know, he took out all these studs and rings and changed his clothes. And suddenly he was a pretty calm guy.

00;46;10;09 - 00;46;31;13
Murray Dueck
Right? So, I mean, so wounding and passions, there's some overlap there, but, but, but when we look at the church as a hospital for healing passion, we start to see each other that were broken people rather than, oh, look what they did, they must be like this. And I instead of going, why? I wonder what happened in their life that caused them to be this way, right?

00;46;31;14 - 00;46;56;16
Murray Dueck
I wonder what's motivating that behind the scenes and having compassion, right? Otherwise, you fall into the sin of our own passion of judgment and criticism. That's right. Right. And to see people and ourselves all in a need of healing. And again, that comes back to the quote last week, which I don't have it with me of the life is like a hospital room, and we're all sitting there with various ailments.

00;46;56;18 - 00;47;13;13
Murray Dueck
One of the Desert fathers said this ailment of the eye and one of the heart and one of the feet and and we're so busy like looking after our own pain. If somebody shouts out of their pain, we don't even hear it because we're busy looking after our own passion. We're like looking after our own stuff in the waiting room, right?

00;47;13;13 - 00;47;37;07
Murray Dueck
Which is which is this life? You know? So anyway, that's that when we're talking about it, it just kept going through my brain to share that. So and it's, you know, it's just a matter of I mean, that causes us to see people differently, the church differently. Right. And even even ourselves. Again, good old Saint Seraphim said, work on yourself and thousands will be saved.

00;47;37;08 - 00;47;38;00
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;47;38;03 - 00;47;44;20
Murray Dueck
You know, that's that's what you're working on, all this stuff, and it's.

00;47;44;22 - 00;47;46;19
Murray Dueck
Not an easy process.

00;47;46;22 - 00;47;48;12
Joshua Hoffert
You know, it's.

00;47;48;15 - 00;48;07;07
Murray Dueck
I, I remember, again Peter Zero in his book. Great book. We've mentioned this before, emotionally healthy spirituality. And he said one of the I he's a desert father lover level lover two. Yep. Where he said one of the main problems of the church is that people serve God to avoid God.

00;48;07;10 - 00;48;09;22
Joshua Hoffert
And that's such a good point. Yeah.

00;48;09;22 - 00;48;34;03
Murray Dueck
And the problem, sometimes if we're doing and serving and doing all this stuff, but we're actually not healing our own issues, we can become judgmental of somebody like Curtis because, you know, we don't we have no mercy because we ourselves have not looked at our own stuff. Right. It's it's not a priority in the church. This becoming, this salvation, like the word healing, like you said, right?

00;48;34;11 - 00;48;49;08
Murray Dueck
That embracing this, this process and it's, you know. So easy to pray for other people and do stuff than it is sometimes to go, okay, what motivated me to do. Right. And this is why the examine is such a powerful thing, right?

00;48;49;08 - 00;48;50;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. We've talked.

00;48;50;00 - 00;49;01;23
Murray Dueck
Why did this come up in my heart? What is motivating this and getting to see see patterns and reasons and outworking and. Yeah. Anyway.

00;49;01;25 - 00;49;36;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, well, you could say the that the, the passions because okay, again, mankind has a natural state and he has a passionate state, natural state, desire for God, passionate state, cannibalizing others to serve his own end. So, so you could say that the way man goes from natural state to passionate state is wounding, which is what was inflicted at the fall, was the great wound of the world.

00;49;36;17 - 00;50;13;04
Joshua Hoffert
And yes, you know, that's what Satan did in the in the fall. And the wound was broken. Communion from God. Yeah. That was the wound. So, so the, the you know, the purpose of Jesus is to heal that wound and restore communion with God. And so the you could say the passions are the result of inner woundedness and the, the, the journey of healing is not so much to, remove, you know, say it's lust, you know, that you that someone struggles with.

00;50;13;04 - 00;50;25;26
Joshua Hoffert
Right? The journey of healing is not so much to remove lust though. That is what happens. The journey of healing is to restore desire for God. Yeah, desire. Exactly. So that is what healing is, is.

00;50;26;00 - 00;50;44;09
Murray Dueck
And that's so important everybody. Because because again, if we have a church thinking like, I just need to get over it, I need to forgive me instead of going, no, there's actually something good in there that needs to be brought up. The weeds need to be pulled, but the life needs to be to be brought up. That's right.

00;50;44;09 - 00;50;47;11
Murray Dueck
Things need to be transformed back into their purpose.

00;50;47;14 - 00;51;08;00
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. And and I think this is what Paul is getting at. We've mentioned this as we were kind of talking about what to talk about what Paul's getting at in Romans seven when he's talking about, he, he identifies two laws. In Romans seven, he identifies the law of the Old Testament. That's that is good and healthy, right?

00;51;08;00 - 00;51;24;01
Joshua Hoffert
That shows me, Paul talks about how I didn't know covetousness was a sin until I read the law. And I went, oh, I'm not supposed to do this right? And but then he also talks about the law of sin and death. It's at work in his members. And he characterizes that law before him, and he before he calls it a law.

00;51;24;01 - 00;51;42;10
Joshua Hoffert
He characterizes it in, in, verse five as a sinful passion. He talks about we were in the flesh and the sinful passions were aroused by the law, which are at work in our members to bear fruit to death. So that's the law of sin and death bearing fruit in our members. Right? And they're the sinful passions.

00;51;42;10 - 00;52;04;27
Joshua Hoffert
So Paul uses this language, right? We're not talking about the this is this is firmly biblical language, the passions. It's the Greek word pathway. And it means forceful feeling, right? Affective emotion basically is what it means. Yeah. So, you know, you think of pathos, right? The ability to empathize and feel that's that is what it is. Sinful passions is the twisting from the natural state.

00;52;04;27 - 00;52;27;04
Joshua Hoffert
So Paul says, Paul says, I recognize that the law is good and holy, but it it only shows me what sin is. Yeah, right. It doesn't produce the lasting change. Then he gets on to the third law of Romans eight, which is the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus. But it's interesting, this law of sin and death at work in the members.

00;52;27;06 - 00;52;52;05
Joshua Hoffert
So the question is when you're when we're talking about that is what is a law. So what does Paul mean when he calls it a law. And I think you could characterize a law in a couple of different ways. A law is a a system of rules designed to keep a person safe. Right. The term itself law hasn't changed all that much over 2000 years.

00;52;52;05 - 00;53;16;04
Joshua Hoffert
A system of rules to keep someone safe. Thinking of driving down the road. There's a system of rules designed to keep you safe right from other drivers. So a system of rules to keep someone safe. The law is the, the principles that a body of people are governed by to keep them moving in a particular direction and keep everything functioning properly.

00;53;16;07 - 00;53;45;16
Joshua Hoffert
Right. This is what a law effectively does. So we have layers when we think about what a law is. Right? So the a law that produces sin and death, that's working in your members is on one level, a self-protective measurement to keep me safe from harm. These are things I learn through and through the course of my life, as a result of the wounds that I've experienced to keep me safe from harm.

00;53;45;19 - 00;54;10;07
Joshua Hoffert
So, you know, Murray rejects me and so I. Yeah, I know that I'm going to be rejected. So I reject Murray for I lash out first. Yeah. I'm not going to get close to him because I know what it means to be hurt. And I've been hurt before. So now I've got a law in my members that's designed to protect me, but it actually ends up hurting me over the long term, because now I can't effectively have communion with others because I've cut myself off from relationship, because I've been hurt.

00;54;10;07 - 00;54;30;08
Joshua Hoffert
So the passions are now at work because a law is at work in my members. They're producing. It's producing death. It's not producing life. Right? It's cutting me off from others. Or I, I learned that I can manipulate people, right? I can give someone a compliment when I'm feeling down, and they'll come. They'll. They'll like me, right?

00;54;30;08 - 00;54;46;21
Joshua Hoffert
I learn all, or I can give someone a gift and I can win their affection. I learn when I'm feeling a certain way that if I use my actions to produce the result in someone else. Now I've got a law that governs myself and shows me actually I can behave this way and I can get what I want out of that person.

00;54;46;28 - 00;55;10;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, so my law actually teaches me to cannibalize someone else. And so I've got layers of behavior that are at work in my members. My body parts you can think of, you know, anybody that like Murray, you like you do a lot of running, right? And so you have trained your body, you have trained your members to run.

00;55;10;06 - 00;55;23;26
Joshua Hoffert
You know, there was a point where you were doing a lot of long distance running, right? Yeah, yeah. So you trained your body to kick into gear when you went a specific amount of time. Right. Your body has learned patterns and habits, right?

00;55;23;28 - 00;55;26;07
Murray Dueck
I wish I could remember it better.

00;55;26;09 - 00;55;38;04
Joshua Hoffert
Well, I had a law, at work, at something. Yeah, right. I love playing basketball. I'm going to play basketball tonight. I've got a law in my body that helps govern how I play the game. I it's, you know, I learn.

00;55;38;04 - 00;55;39;05
Murray Dueck
Very nice patterns.

00;55;39;08 - 00;55;51;25
Joshua Hoffert
And repeated behaviors. And, I had a great moment the last time I played basketball, when one of the young guys walked up to me and said, man, you're just automatic from three. You shoot three. So well, I was like, ha ha.

00;55;51;25 - 00;55;52;20
Murray Dueck
Ha, that's great.

00;55;52;20 - 00;56;06;18
Joshua Hoffert
43 and you're 17. And I like hearing that from a 17 year old. Right. But that's a lot. That's a law in my body where I know this is that, you know, I know the routine and the rhythm that I've taught myself. The law is that.

00;56;06;20 - 00;56;07;24
Murray Dueck
Let me give a couple examples of.

00;56;07;27 - 00;56;09;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, go for it, go for it.

00;56;09;07 - 00;56;28;02
Murray Dueck
Because so my family growing up, if you want to think of law or, you know, because we all have family patterns, we have our belief systems. And that's a part of law of sin and death. And you think that's the way the world works, but, you know, not for everybody. Yeah. So one there was my mom was scared of everything and everybody.

00;56;28;02 - 00;56;47;01
Murray Dueck
So I often wonder what happened to her in her childhood. But one had one friend taught me really clear the law would be you can't trust anybody. You got to do it all yourself, right? Well, then where does that come from? Fear. And that's so I remember what I was on staff at this church and everything was going pretty good.

00;56;47;01 - 00;57;03;22
Murray Dueck
I valley this is really early days. And then the Christmas banquet is coming and I had to do it all. I had to get the musicians, I had to decorate the place. I had to get the food at four. If you believe you got to do it all yourself. It was killing me. But I believe that that was my family upbringing.

00;57;03;22 - 00;57;24;13
Murray Dueck
Don't trust anybody. And luckily I was like, I can't live like this anywhere. This belief system doesn't work. You know, luckily, people showed up. Hey, can I help with this? Could I bring the food? Would you mind if I, you know, I and I learned. Wow, this law is a lie, right? Passion. And, but that it was running my life.

00;57;24;13 - 00;57;41;12
Murray Dueck
That belief system. You can imagine how that affected everything. So I'll give you one more. This is kind of an important one for me. I had this guy. This is what got me and Josh was talking, and, we'll call him Chaz. We'll just make up a deeper. And he.

00;57;41;14 - 00;57;46;00
Joshua Hoffert
You know, I knew someone named Chaz, so I've got. Oh, do in mind. Okay, I think there's.

00;57;46;00 - 00;57;48;12
Murray Dueck
A guy down the road who's a farmer here named.

00;57;48;12 - 00;57;49;27
Joshua Hoffert
Chaz. Oh, there you go. He's quite a.

00;57;49;27 - 00;58;06;23
Murray Dueck
Guy. So we'll call Chaz. So, he was enforcer in junior hockey. He was the kind of guy that would that they'd send out the brake heads, you know, and he was kind of that way. So a a super confident, super cocky. And if you ever told him not to do something, he would do it to spike, right?

00;58;06;24 - 00;58;18;20
Murray Dueck
That's a passion. So I remember he's in my house and I said, see this alarm on the wall? We rented this house. Nobody touch it. Well, guess what? He's gotta do. He's gotta go over there and smash all the numbers and set it off. And it was horrible.

00;58;18;20 - 00;58;28;21
Joshua Hoffert
So that's Paul, that's Paul. Right? That's that there was a law told me what not to do. And I went and did it anyway. Yeah, I got a different law at work in my members. That's right. Yeah.

00;58;28;21 - 00;58;49;13
Murray Dueck
So this guy, he's leading one of my home groups and you got to work with what you got. And he was a good guy, but he had this problem. He was a good guy. He was confident. He was strong. He was he people could could follow him. He was a good leader. But underneath there is this, you know, ornery with all that confidence, with all that toughness.

00;58;49;13 - 00;59;12;06
Murray Dueck
This is like, you know what? I'm going to do it my way. Yeah. So underneath is this cocky passion right. So so he decides to date this girl whose dad, had a sex change. And Joe. So she's never known a strong man. Never known a man. Confidence. Never been looked after, never been around, you know? So he is fulfilling in her this need for this male figure.

00;59;12;08 - 00;59;26;07
Murray Dueck
And then he's rescuing her because, you know, she's this broken mess, right? And you can just see the massive amounts of dysfunction here, right? Sure. And and they're both home group leaders and you know, they're going to break up eventually. And this is going to be a massive disaster.

00;59;26;13 - 00;59;26;23
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;59;26;23 - 00;59;43;08
Murray Dueck
So I'm just looking at this. And but I know if I tell Chaz to his face, don't date her because this is going to go into the garbage can because this is why you're doing it right. He's going to do it despite me. So, so because that's his passion. I'm going to fight you because I'm right. And so I'm like, well, what am I going to do?

00;59;43;11 - 01;00;03;09
Murray Dueck
Right? Because I could have put the law there. Do you're not allowed to do this. Stop. Right. The law says I'm the pastor. You're going to do it my way, right? But I need heart healing to happen here. I need them to see what's going on. I need I need a deeper level. So, you know, I felt the Lord say right out a prophetic word, what's going to happen or what you think's going to happen.

01;00;03;14 - 01;00;20;25
Murray Dueck
They're going to break up and here's what's going to happen. You're going to learn some humility. You're going to learn to have some kindness, you know, and write it out, mail it to yourself. So I wrote out this word, not an original idea. It was a good idea, but you know, about how to do that. So I put it to the post office.

01;00;20;25 - 01;00;38;18
Murray Dueck
He put a date stamp on it. So, you know, and I put it in my drawer and I waited. I left it there for two months, I think, and suddenly they broke up. Two months later, Chaz comes in my office weeping, angry, angry. And it this girl did this to me after everything I did for her. Right here.

01;00;38;18 - 01;01;00;24
Murray Dueck
I got a letter for you. Please. Like what? And I passed him this thing, and you read it and fell on his face, weeping before God. Wow. Because he realized, oh my goodness, everything in that letter came true, right? The point was for him to realize he had some judgment. He had some anger. He was trying to get a identity out of saving this girl and show everybody in youth, look what I can do and right.

01;01;00;27 - 01;01;14;02
Murray Dueck
And you know what? It dealt with the passion. Rather than just, say, a working of the sin right. And and that's how it works in healing as a church and a person.

01;01;14;04 - 01;01;27;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. Our our his his capacity to love God, to love himself and to love others was, you know, was being restored in that moment. Yeah. Right.

01;01;27;10 - 01;01;52;27
Murray Dueck
And he became such a good whole group leader instead of look at me. Look what I can do. I'm a leader. I can. He was, I think he went into social work in the end, just because he. He realized he could believe for people. But he realized people are broken in need and need help. That whole part of that passion of needing a identity and needing to be strong and needing to be the one that saves people started to get dealt with at that point, right?

01;01;52;29 - 01;02;03;21
Murray Dueck
Well, you're right, it is change. But the gifting of confidence, the gifting of helping people, the gifting of of believing got redeemed and started to get shaped in a different way.

01;02;03;23 - 01;02;29;20
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Right. Well, I mean, from the like going back to Genesis, right? The, the mankind lost sight of God. That's essentially what happened in the garden. Mankind lost sight of God. So now, you know, in the in the story of Chaz, Chaz catches a glimpse of God again. Yes. Right.

01;02;29;24 - 01;02;30;20
Murray Dueck
Exactly.

01;02;30;22 - 01;02;40;08
Joshua Hoffert
In the prophetic word. Right. This is what the father was like because the father's, the father's nature is always communicated in, in a prophetic word should always be anyway. Right?

01;02;40;16 - 01;02;42;09
Murray Dueck
There's our prophetic nature, guys.

01;02;42;11 - 01;03;07;13
Joshua Hoffert
So he catches a glimpse, jobs, catches a glimpse of God again, finds himself, finds the love of God, is able to love himself and love God and love people. And that's restored. And so he is on the journey of catching a glimpse of God again. So the passions are the things that deter us from seeing God as He truly is, because they end up causing the gaze of our heart to look at us rather than him.

01;03;07;15 - 01;03;09;27
Joshua Hoffert
And, and this is.

01;03;10;00 - 01;03;11;12
Murray Dueck
Can I give it? I'll give you another example.

01;03;11;13 - 01;03;12;07
Joshua Hoffert
Go for it. A biblical.

01;03;12;07 - 01;03;13;11
Murray Dueck
A biblical example. What?

01;03;13;13 - 01;03;15;06
Joshua Hoffert
So it's going to see.

01;03;15;06 - 01;03;38;27
Murray Dueck
This in Scripture. Think about Abraham, Abraham the father of faith okay. And I'll do this a little quick, but please read it. So here's Abraham, father of faith. He gets this prophetic word, you know, go to a land that I've called you. You don't know where you're going. Okay? There's some faith. Okay? When he gets there, Pharaoh sees his wife and he goes, hey, I just you just tell him you're my sister and otherwise you're going to kill me, right?

01;03;38;29 - 01;03;56;29
Murray Dueck
So for my sake. So he's got a major fear issue. He's got a fear of death issue. Right? It's right there. Fear of death. So God does not rebuke him. You know, he gets another prophetic word. And, you know, Eliezer will not be your, you know, your inheritor. It will be a body sent out of your own body.

01;03;56;29 - 01;04;18;03
Murray Dueck
Right. Okay. So then he screws up again. He decides, well, I'm getting old. Fear of death again. I don't have a have a descendant. I'll go. You know, I'll have Ishmael, you know, let's that's what we'll do. And, And the Lord gives him another blessing. No, he doesn't rebuke him, gives him another blessing. Right. And then he does it the same thing again with Abimelech.

01;04;18;05 - 01;04;34;16
Murray Dueck
Right. He takes his wife, who's 90 at this point. So she either was a real hot 90 year old or a bimbo, like needed glasses. I mean, it's one or the other, know, and, and he says the same thing because he's afraid he's going to get killed. Let her take you, and then God intervenes, saves us. But again.

01;04;34;19 - 01;04;58;01
Murray Dueck
And but if you look at the end of the story, finally he's got Isaac, and now God offers him to sacrifice in and he takes them up the mountain. Now, remember, he always wiggles his way out. He's always finding a way out of death. That's his major fear. And now at this point, he goes, you know what? God is risen from the dead.

01;04;58;04 - 01;05;23;03
Murray Dueck
No more fear dead. That's the passion in Abraham's soul. God has been working on for 30 years. And then when he finally, you know, raises a knife, God says, now I know you know that you truly fear me, right? Right, instead of people. And that whole thing was a journey of Abraham's inner healing from the results of the fall, so he could become a father of nations.

01;05;23;06 - 01;05;24;28
Murray Dueck
That's what that's about, about him.

01;05;25;00 - 01;05;48;03
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Well, I'll tell a story that will personalize that to, to to me. I because it's a, it's in a, you know, much smaller sense. I wasn't trying to kill anybody. The I, I remember a, number of years ago, I was having a conversation with a friend about some, initiatives that we could have worked on together.

01;05;48;05 - 01;06;06;10
Joshua Hoffert
And we were talking about prophetic ministry and things like that. And, and I shared some thoughts about what I thought the purpose of prophetic ministry was all about. And the person I was talking with just kind of, you know, they just kind of was like, oh, yeah, I don't really think that this is what I think.

01;06;06;12 - 01;06;36;02
Joshua Hoffert
It was an inconsequential little, reflection on that person's, you know, on that person's behalf. But it really it really threw me when they just kind of discounted what I said, and, kept moving on, and, and I, you know, I, I was a bit thrown by that, but I, you know, I didn't think much of it. I that call ended and I had to go into a meeting where I was meeting with some other leaders and, and I could tell I was kind of aloof.

01;06;36;04 - 01;06;57;00
Joshua Hoffert
I'm a bit prideful. I was flip, I remember sitting back in my chair, you know, kind of like this, but and I wasn't really aware why I was doing it. I just remember doing it. I was like, wow, I feel I feel a bit not like myself right now, but I couldn't, you know, I couldn't really pinpoint it, but I could feel like I don't really feel myself, like myself.

01;06;57;03 - 01;07;26;25
Joshua Hoffert
And this is where, you know, thankfully, having language now talking about, watchfulness of the heart. Right. I could, I could catch these things before they really spiraled. And, so then the next morning, I'm, you know, I'm sitting just dialoging with the father in my morning devotions, trying to hold myself before him. And I can feel this bubble of emotion off to the side.

01;07;26;28 - 01;07;43;26
Joshua Hoffert
I can feel it there. And I'm going. I don't really like how that feels. Right. And it and, and I could tell that if I leaned into it I would probably just start crying in, not in a comfortable way but in an uncomfortable way. But and I was gone. It was kind of feels like anxiety, kind of feels like stress.

01;07;43;26 - 01;08;02;11
Joshua Hoffert
I'm not I'm I know this feeling, but I don't know where it's I, I'm, I'm not comfortable with it. I feel like the closer I get to it, the more I feel like crying. And and so I'm kind of trying to hold that before the father knowing okay I, I this is here, this is present, I'm feeling this is real.

01;08;02;11 - 01;08;28;26
Joshua Hoffert
Like why am I feeling this way. Why do I feel so off. And as I'm kind of leaning into it and just trying to present myself before the Lord in morning prayer, all of a sudden it clicks. That's the same way I used to feel when I got into arguments with my dad when I was a young kid, and I felt like he didn't listen to me and he would just discount my opinion.

01;08;28;29 - 01;08;46;07
Joshua Hoffert
And then, you know, everything was his way. And, you know, I was maybe 13, 14, 15, I, I got my dad used to tell me I should be a lawyer when I grew up because I wound up arguing, but he would just sit there all calm and cool and collected and systematically take down each one of my points.

01;08;46;09 - 01;09;11;13
Joshua Hoffert
And I would. I get increasingly frustrated and I'd start crying and in, you know, outbursts of emotion that I didn't know how to control. And and I realized that that's what I was feeling. I felt the same way. And it dawned on me that when my friend the day before hadn't listened to me, I felt neglected, that it was the same way I used to feel when my dad did that.

01;09;11;16 - 01;09;39;09
Joshua Hoffert
And so then, because I felt that now it had influenced how I acted in the leadership meeting that happened directly afterwards. Right. So I had a wound because I'd felt neglected, that turned into a passion, that turned into a sin, which was the pride and arrogance that I treated everybody else. So I actually I went the next day when I realized this, I went to the leaders that I was meeting with, and I apologized to them for my ideas.

01;09;39;09 - 01;10;05;06
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, wow. The the day before, I said, I'm learning things about myself. And so I so that's that's in a, you know, nice little neat 24 hour period. Yeah. Now you feel, oh, something's going on here. But this is where I think the fathers give us language to express that journey of healing. Now I understand. Oh, I felt that way because of something that happened to me when I was younger.

01;10;05;13 - 01;10;23;27
Joshua Hoffert
I, the father, helped me to see that he help me process through it. And now I can be more completely myself because I restored, because I can't look at him when I'm feeling all that anxiety. Right? Yes, because I'm looking at the anxiety for you. And so now I can look at him. Right? And then I had a conversation with my dad, said, hey, dad, this is what I'm learning about myself.

01;10;23;27 - 01;10;38;05
Joshua Hoffert
I wasn't trying to I don't have a good yes. I wasn't trying to get him on anything. And and I told them, this is what I'm learning. I'm I had a great relationship with my daddy, so, you know, I should have listened to you more. I really, I didn't I was just focused on trying to fix the situation.

01;10;38;05 - 01;10;57;03
Joshua Hoffert
I should have listened to you more. I'm really sorry about that. So I didn't expect that from my dad at all. And it turned into this beautiful moment with my dad as well. But that's where we go. The the the wound, the defense mechanism, the anxiety, the passion, the sin. And and now we've got the beginning, middle and end, right?

01;10;57;03 - 01;11;03;09
Joshua Hoffert
And I can go, oh, but now when I feel that way, I can catch it and I can go, oh yeah.

01;11;03;09 - 01;11;11;29
Murray Dueck
Which brings us back. I guess we should do that next week. Maybe. Yeah. Or next time, which is, has six layers of guarding the heart.

01;11;11;29 - 01;11;16;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. How do we actually go about doing that? Right. There's you.

01;11;16;12 - 01;11;33;05
Murray Dueck
I'll just say, you know, guys, if I maybe. I'm sorry. One thought here. Just a quick one. Just quick what I last week when I, you know, mentioning, you know, Bishop Callistus where is on this train and I guess he's in his robe squaring the cross. And this, you know, guy walks out to me, his brother. Are you saved?

01;11;33;07 - 01;11;36;21
Murray Dueck
And his response again is, I'm in the process of being saved.

01;11;36;21 - 01;11;37;16
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

01;11;37;18 - 01;11;47;29
Murray Dueck
And so what we're talking about is work out your salvation with fear and trembling. This is the process of being saved. That's right. You know, especially when you see the word is salvation is healing.

01;11;48;05 - 01;11;48;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;11;48;15 - 01;11;58;21
Murray Dueck
The soul is in the process of being healing. And the part or with that, that's the church is a hospital. That's Christianity. It's the way the ancients saw it.

01;11;58;24 - 01;12;41;09
Joshua Hoffert
That and the the because the natural state of humanity is to desire God. Yes. The unnatural state of humanity is to turn that desire outward. So to be saved is to constant return to a place of divine love. And, the and then to be in the process of being saved is to become more and more and more aware of the marks upon my soul that interfere with the natural state of who I am, that that that natural desire would arise.

01;12;41;12 - 01;13;05;13
Joshua Hoffert
So, so salvation. And again, we get back to this whole thing. If salvation is a legal justification that happens in a moment of time, I say a prayer and I'm forgiven. And people struggle with that because it doesn't fix the problem. Yeah. Because the problem is not a legal issue. The problem is a learned behavior issue. That's the word.

01;13;05;13 - 01;13;28;24
Joshua Hoffert
That's what the word law is implying in Romans seven. Yes. Right. So that's right. So now okay. Now our means for addressing the problem of change. Because what I'm attempting to do is avert my gaze or readjust my gaze because it has been averted, a readjust my gaze so that I'm seeing him all over again. Right. This is Jesus.

01;13;28;24 - 01;13;29;10
Joshua Hoffert
Blessed are.

01;13;29;10 - 01;13;30;04
Murray Dueck
Those perfect.

01;13;30;11 - 01;14;02;09
Joshua Hoffert
You know, blessed are those who don't see and believe they've had their heart, not physical eyes. They've had the eyes of their heart revert re initiated to see the beauty of God. And the disciplines are all about trying to continue to hold yourself there. Like if you think about the the everywhere from the greatest Christian monastics all the way down to Benny Hinn, okay, all the way down to Benny Hinn or up in, I don't know, whichever way it goes, right?

01;14;02;09 - 01;14;09;01
Joshua Hoffert
Or a cross over to Benny Hinn. Good morning, Holy Spirit. That's the whole point of good morning, Holy Spirit. His book. Right. Those is great.

01;14;09;01 - 01;14;10;14
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that's a great book, everybody.

01;14;10;14 - 01;14;33;24
Joshua Hoffert
I listen, the whole point is keeping your eyes fixed on him. And if we if we get everything, you know, if you get anything else from this, it's that keeping your eyes fixed on him. You know, that's what healing is all about. Healing helps that happen. And healing, the result of seeing him is healing will happen. So,

01;14;33;26 - 01;14;36;07
Murray Dueck
And I think I got a a nice quote about that.

01;14;36;09 - 01;14;57;05
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, Marie's bringing it up, and we've got more to say, like, okay, well, so, you know, that's a, the theory of, you know, essentially a theory of humanity from the perspective of the early Church Fathers. And, and then, you know, we've incorporated some others there. But then, you know, what's the means by which we get there, right?

01;14;57;05 - 01;15;15;27
Joshua Hoffert
That's another question. How like, we've always we've we've asked the question. Jesus says, when you pray, go into your inner closet or your inner room. Well, how do you get there? Right. Same kind of same kind of idea. We want to get into that in a room so that we see the father and the father sees us, and that's the place that we end up getting robbed from so much.

01;15;15;27 - 01;15;39;18
Joshua Hoffert
And, you know, it's interesting that when Jesus characterizes how to do that, he talks about walking away from pride. He talks about walking away from lust for material gain. He talks about reorienting, where the eyes of your heart look not to earthly treasure anymore, right? He talks all about the way to maintain sitting in that inner chamber with the father is.

01;15;39;20 - 01;15;41;10
Joshua Hoffert
Let's deal with the passions.

01;15;41;12 - 01;15;57;10
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And just. I was going through my mind. Everybody just think about Jesus is doing this all the time. And this is part of his calling in Luke to an old guy, Simeon prays over the baby Jesus. Right. This child will cause a rising and falling of many. So the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed.

01;15;57;11 - 01;15;58;03
Joshua Hoffert
There you go.

01;15;58;06 - 01;16;15;11
Murray Dueck
That's what it's talking about. So think a rich young ruler. I mean, the rich, young, young rulers. He goes, you know, what must I do to inherit the kingdom of God? I think that's what he says. And you go, yep. And Jesus says, he goes, I've done this all my life. I've done all these things. Well, now Jesus is looking at what's in his heart, the passion.

01;16;15;14 - 01;16;37;25
Murray Dueck
Then sell everything you have. Give to the poor. Follow me. And he goes away sad because he has many. Because he's attached. He's got an attack. That's right. He thinks that's the passion there or he does it to the Pharisees all the time. You know you love to take the best seats in the temple and do all this stuff, and you know you love the praises of man that will do the passions, right, because they're fulfilling the law.

01;16;37;25 - 01;16;39;12
Murray Dueck
But but look what's in the heart.

01;16;39;19 - 01;16;39;29
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;16;40;00 - 01;16;41;28
Murray Dueck
This needs to be healed.

01;16;42;00 - 01;16;42;21
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

01;16;42;24 - 01;17;04;28
Murray Dueck
And and I personally think like, I think we need to read it this way personally. When, when and we might have mentioned this before, but go, go read it and see when Jesus says to the disciples, you know, you're all going to abandon me, you know? And Peter goes, surely not, Lord, I'll never abandon you. And then Jesus says, you know, I you know, I prayed for you that your faith may not fail.

01;17;04;28 - 01;17;23;01
Murray Dueck
But when you turn back, strengthen your brothers. Well, how is it possible, like he's not going to. His faith won't fail. Jesus prayed for me, but he's going to turn back. What's Jesus doing with Peter? Yeah, well, if you look at Peter, he's got a passion. He's very cocky. Even though they all fail you. I'll never fail you.

01;17;23;07 - 01;17;34;02
Murray Dueck
Right? Right. See, with Peter all the time. And Jesus is helping Peter see what's in his heart. And when the rooster cries, three cross three times looks right at him. And Peter goes,

01;17;34;04 - 01;17;35;05
Joshua Hoffert
I see it.

01;17;35;05 - 01;18;00;09
Murray Dueck
Oh my goodness, I'm not as strong. And then. And then Jesus, what does he do here? He establishes him as a leader. What Peter sees what's in there? Feed my sheep. Right. Like, oh, Lord, I'm. You know, anyway, we kind of went over that before, but it's important to see Jesus is intentionally pushing up what's in people's hearts, right to to bring healing.

01;18;00;11 - 01;18;30;11
Murray Dueck
So they so again, you know, we get to this point and this is a quote of Saint Gregory Palamas, the sense of the love of God and our own love towards God are the things which transforms and cures the passions. To mortify the passable part of the soul does not mean that we enclose it idle and motionless in ourselves, so we don't just lock away things, but with that we turn it from its connection with evil to lust, to love, anger to fighting for people to to the love for God.

01;18;30;13 - 01;18;56;03
Murray Dueck
But, but, but this change to love for God does not happen without a life of love in any case, when one is ablaze with love for God, which is a divine inspiration, when the whole inner world is transformed, it is warm by divine grace and sanctified when the love of God dominates the news. Back to that again. It frees it from its bonds, persuading it to rise above not only sensible things, but even transitory things of its life.

01;18;56;03 - 01;19;06;11
Murray Dueck
Yeah. So if you if you look at what Josh just told his story there, right, he freed that part of his heart from, from the bondage to this world of what people think of him and everything.

01;19;06;11 - 01;19;06;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;19;06;22 - 01;19;28;01
Murray Dueck
And he reconnected it to the love of God. And then suddenly it didn't affect him anymore because he he he helped it transform for its original purpose, which is connection to the Lord and even how it brought him back into connection with the church leaders the next day and into love for his father. See that there is a transformation going on.

01;19;28;03 - 01;19;48;25
Murray Dueck
And and so the Desert Fathers are saying, hey guys, right. This goes into blessed are they pure in heart, for they shall see God. Right. This goes into and they would say, just so you know, these people who like float as father likes is floated. What did he say? Yeah, we have people who floated a glow like a light bulb do.

01;19;48;28 - 01;19;49;08
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

01;19;49;08 - 01;19;52;17
Murray Dueck
Well, we also have people who sit on the back of the church steps and smoke cigarets.

01;19;52;17 - 01;19;53;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right.

01;19;53;24 - 01;20;07;06
Murray Dueck
But but they would say, you know, these people are having these encounters with God, floating off the floor. That's just a normal human being. That's not somebody being really gifted. That's somebody who's dealt with the passion.

01;20;07;11 - 01;20;07;22
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

01;20;07;22 - 01;20;30;03
Murray Dueck
And being chained to this earth of fear and loneliness and anger that that stuff's all done right. And then blessed to the pure in heart who see God, that their nature is back pre-fall and all this stuff is taken out of them. And that lifelong journey ends with just knowing God in this way. Right? And they said, that's just a normal human being.

01;20;30;05 - 01;20;34;06
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And that's a crazy thought. I mean, that that's like way down the road here that.

01;20;34;08 - 01;20;35;06
Joshua Hoffert
That we'll get there.

01;20;35;09 - 01;20;42;21
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Ever get there. But but the idea is, is that wow. That's just a normal human being one. How much healing do we need in our soul?

01;20;42;24 - 01;20;43;09
Joshua Hoffert
Lots.

01;20;43;09 - 01;20;53;22
Murray Dueck
Right. Lots and lots like Mike. Right. But it's possible. And that's a journey the church has taken very seriously for thousands of years.

01;20;53;22 - 01;20;57;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And and offers a lot of insight on.

01;20;57;11 - 01;20;59;21
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And and you know, that's what we're talking about.

01;20;59;22 - 01;21;26;07
Joshua Hoffert
You know in in the story with Peter. John as John, I think it's John 18 where, Peter and John 18 or 19 where Peter, goes in, goes, you know, follows Jesus and then denies him three times. Right. I caught this about a year or so ago that, the disciple who was with Jesus, ostensibly.

01;21;26;07 - 01;21;46;02
Joshua Hoffert
John. Right. John refers to himself in the third person, went out to the girl. The first denial went out to the girl and stood next to Peter and said to the girl, hey, let him stood up. Can you still hear me? For?

01;21;46;04 - 01;21;47;16
Joshua Hoffert
Who man?

01;21;47;19 - 01;21;49;23
Murray Dueck
You know, right now, at the very end, our connection is.

01;21;49;23 - 01;21;55;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, we're going crazy. Yeah it is. Can you hear me now? Oh.

01;21;55;19 - 01;22;02;24
Murray Dueck
You're back. Let's do over. If John went to. I can hear you now. Okay. I got to the part and and John went, stood by the girl.

01;22;02;26 - 01;22;13;10
Joshua Hoffert
So John, John goes out and says, yeah. So John goes out and says to the to the servant girl, let him come in. She goes to get Peter.

01;22;13;12 - 01;22;15;15
Murray Dueck
Right. Oh that's right, that's right. I told her, right.

01;22;15;15 - 01;22;44;09
Joshua Hoffert
And that's where that's the first denial is when she says, oh, are you one of his disciples too? So John, standing right there when Peter denies Jesus. Right. So which is fascinating. John hasn't lost sight of him because John is the man who rests his breast, his head on the breast of Jesus, the beloved disciple. So the disciple who knows he's loved doesn't lose sight of the lover of his soul and doesn't deny Jesus.

01;22;44;12 - 01;23;05;14
Joshua Hoffert
Peter, who deals with his arrogance and his pride, loses sight of Jesus and denies him. But they're juxtaposed against each other right there. Yeah, yeah. You know, John, anyway, it's it's it's so clear when you when you see oh John's actually standing there when Peter denies him. When did Peter deny Jesus. Totally. And he. Why. He's right there with Jesus.

01;23;05;14 - 01;23;23;15
Joshua Hoffert
Right. He's known. But and it says John, who is known by the girl. So he is known as a disciple of Jesus, okay. Being identified there because he hasn't lost sight of it, because the passions haven't the passions have been dealt a death blow. The this column is that one. Yeah. At least that one. That's right. So one, one last quote from a desert father.

01;23;23;15 - 01;23;41;08
Joshua Hoffert
I read this one just this morning actually, and I thought it was very appropriate given our topic. ABBA Fiona's, this rather obscure figure. Not a whole lot is known about them all, but Fiona said this. We are taken prisoner by the passions of the flesh because of our lack of mental attention in our contemplation of God, who.

01;23;41;10 - 01;23;46;27
Joshua Hoffert
That's basically what we said. So the whole episode summed up in the owner's as quote, right.

01;23;46;29 - 01;23;49;25
Murray Dueck
So how do you do that? I guess that's going to be coming.

01;23;49;27 - 01;23;52;25
Joshua Hoffert
It's going to be pretty quick. Another episode.

01;23;52;25 - 01;23;58;13
Murray Dueck
That's right guys, you know, there's a verse, it says, let the peace of God guard your heart.

01;23;58;14 - 01;24;00;18
Joshua Hoffert
How do you how do we do that? Well.

01;24;00;20 - 01;24;02;03
Murray Dueck
There is a verse about this.

01;24;02;03 - 01;24;04;16
Joshua Hoffert
There's lots of them about this stuff in.

01;24;04;18 - 01;24;06;11
Murray Dueck
Yeah. So we'll come back to that. We'll get there.

01;24;06;12 - 01;24;25;05
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. There's lots of them about this and that, that, we're hoping you'll find very helpful as we continue to talk about this and it'll give you another perspective, a fresh, a fresh. Oh, I never thought about that verse that way. I never thought about it that way. That's that's. Yeah. Right. Murray and I, I think you could say, Murray, our life has been full of those moments.

01;24;25;05 - 01;24;26;16
Joshua Hoffert
I never saw it that way.

01;24;26;19 - 01;24;31;01
Murray Dueck
Yeah. You today already mean just the one you just quoted about, John? I'm like, what you say.

01;24;31;03 - 01;24;53;01
Joshua Hoffert
You're right. Absolutely. That's right. There's a lot more to say about that one too. And John's the one who notices Jesus on the shore and points him to Peter, says, oh, right. Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah, he's the one who goes, hey, there's Jesus over there. No one else recognizes him, but John does. Why? Well, in this, his eyes never lost sight of them.

01;24;53;04 - 01;24;54;15
Joshua Hoffert
So, yeah.

01;24;54;18 - 01;25;17;16
Murray Dueck
It's funny with Peter that this is a reoccurring thing because, of course, you know, in acts 15, you know, acts ten, he brings the church in, you know, he's the guy the vision of the God and everything. He brings the Gentiles in. And then in acts 15, when they're arguing with the, you know, the Pharisees that are saying everyone must be circumcised, Peter says, And the Gentiles heard the gospel from my lips, you know, and he's like.

01;25;17;18 - 01;25;19;00
Joshua Hoffert
I'm the one who did it.

01;25;19;02 - 01;25;40;26
Murray Dueck
It's three. He's only eating with Jews again because he's scared. And, Paul has to keep them to his face, you know, you see the whole thing still, and you know, and there is a famous painting of Peter, fleeing Rome and, because he's going to get killed, he's fleeing Rome, and he runs into Jesus standing there with the cross.

01;25;40;28 - 01;25;53;29
Murray Dueck
And when he sees it, he turns back and goes, okay, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, you know, I'll get crucified. You get. Yeah. Find this picture of Peter. Oh, yeah. And Jesus meets him on the road. Hey, Peter. You forgot something.

01;25;54;04 - 01;26;02;22
Joshua Hoffert
One of these, he's like, oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. So what's the human heart here? Yeah, that's.

01;26;02;24 - 01;26;05;27
Murray Dueck
Yes. I'm not going to follow his pattern anymore. I'm going to do this different.

01;26;05;27 - 01;26;20;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. Right. That's right. That's a beautiful thing. Well everybody, we hope that this, this episode was enriching to you and enlightening to you. And, you know, we're going to talk more about the passions.

01;26;21;04 - 01;26;22;02
Murray Dueck
Make you think.

01;26;22;02 - 01;26;37;09
Joshua Hoffert
Anyway. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Make you think about how off base we are. Maybe. But we're just hope that, we're able to add a little bit of flavor to your walk with the father. So that's, that's our goal.

01;26;37;11 - 01;26;48;25
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And, you know, if you're looking for a book to read, like. Okay, I don't get this, you know, I, I would recommend kind of a modern one. I think it would be helpful. That book called, Mountain of Silence.

01;26;48;25 - 01;26;50;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. The mountain silence.

01;26;50;22 - 01;27;11;01
Murray Dueck
Maka midis. I believe he was Carioca. Some Archimedes. Yeah. And, it'll be a lot of concepts that are brand new. We've talked about a lot of them and still a lot to go, but if you're looking for a resource just to read, that's pretty modern. And, you know, asking these questions because, this guy's a university professor, right?

01;27;11;04 - 01;27;20;02
Murray Dueck
Who's never studied his own heritage, and he's asking, you know, this monk, these basically some of these questions. Yeah. Well, what about this? And what about this? So I would recommend that everybody.

01;27;20;03 - 01;27;20;16
Joshua Hoffert
It's a good one.

01;27;20;21 - 01;27;23;20
Murray Dueck
Yeah. My brain I don't get it. You're that I might help you. Yeah.

01;27;23;20 - 01;27;46;16
Joshua Hoffert
That book that book is helpful and and you know, I, I think, when it comes to because sometimes what happens when we start talking about, well, you know, listen to this Orthodox author or read this guy is, the kind of. Oh, but, you know, they don't they don't have the same theology that I do. Right?

01;27;46;16 - 01;28;01;26
Joshua Hoffert
That's one thing that that constantly comes up with these kind of conversations. And my response always to that is, I'm not reading them for a theological treatise. I'm reading them to understand the way of the human heart and how I can present myself to God.

01;28;01;26 - 01;28;18;23
Murray Dueck
And how God works with the human heart to and it's interest because. Lately, I've you know, it's not that just so you know, everybody that orthodox people, they've got their own issues, let's just say. And one of them.

01;28;18;23 - 01;28;19;22
Joshua Hoffert
Is, yeah.

01;28;19;25 - 01;28;39;12
Murray Dueck
We are the true church. And how we do everything is the right way. And you know, Father Mike's not. Yeah. And I hope you guys can hear that just how we meet to that. But there are a lot of that that are and and my response to them is because you're like, well, why aren't you converting? Like, why aren't you coming over?

01;28;39;14 - 01;29;03;29
Murray Dueck
You've seen the true way, basically. And my response is so I should take all the things God has shown me about his nature and how to walk with him and how to become like him. And I should just throw it away because your boat's the right boat. I don't think so. Right? Because what's my goal here? My goal is to know God, become like God, and be transformed in his image.

01;29;04;06 - 01;29;23;18
Murray Dueck
And and if the early church and the fathers. That's right. Help me with that. I am definitely going to do it. But if I have to throw out like the word that wonderfully, often a problem with picturing Jesus and wounding inviting Jesus in the memories. God, you know, I'm not going to stop that because I see all these people getting massively healed, you know, you know, modern worship.

01;29;23;18 - 01;29;33;01
Murray Dueck
I mean, I, I, you know, I, I could name a whole bunch of things, but I'm, you know, I, I don't need another box. I, I, I, I want to meet the person.

01;29;33;03 - 01;29;33;17
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;29;33;17 - 01;29;54;01
Murray Dueck
Jesus Christ. I want to become like this person. That's right. I, I'm not going to throw out all these ways that I know God. Just so suddenly you're one of us. Now. I'm like, I don't think that's the heart of the Lord. And when I read The Desert Fathers in the stuff Josh and I are doing, what I'm encountering are our principles.

01;29;54;03 - 01;30;07;19
Murray Dueck
And so one Orthodox guy I like watching online. You get called spiritual vitamins. These are your spiritual vitamins. You know, you take your spiritual life, right? But so so everyone, you know, I think that's true for all of us that we.

01;30;07;19 - 01;30;08;14
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;30;08;17 - 01;30;27;06
Murray Dueck
We need to glean from that from the whole church. So, so and Josh and I have this incredible love because, you know, the Desert Fathers have like, wow, that's how it works. I see these things in my heart. I need to be transformed. I need to understand contemplative prayer. I need to know how to shepherd my own heart.

01;30;27;09 - 01;30;36;12
Murray Dueck
You know, I need to understand that the working in the hearts of others so I can have compassion. I need you, you know. So I think I need to say in the midst of.

01;30;36;13 - 01;30;38;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;30;38;23 - 01;30;45;12
Murray Dueck
You know, we're not trying to swap one religious tradition for another, but we're trying to find that the fingerprints of God.

01;30;45;13 - 01;30;45;23
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;30;45;23 - 01;30;49;28
Murray Dueck
And I hope, I hope everybody today maybe you found some of those fingerprints yourself.

01;30;49;29 - 01;31;08;19
Joshua Hoffert
That's the hope. Yeah. That's right, that's right. So leave us a review comment, send us a message, let us know. What you're thinking, what you're dealing with, and, how impactful these conversations have been or not impactful. You know, you can like, yeah. Scathing hate comment. Are a two if you want to. That's right, that's right.

01;31;08;22 - 01;31;33;24
Joshua Hoffert
We'd like to hear back from you guys. So I guess Marie, that draws this episode to a close. And as we say, until next time, everyone. By virtue of research.

01;31;33;26 - 01;31;34;04
Joshua Hoffert
You.