The Growing Divide: Is Jesus the Problem? A dream examined...

It seems that today we are trying our best to build, cast vision, influence, spread the word, bring the kingdom, and create space for the miraculous in our churches and communities. Sometimes, it seems as if the problem is not us, but Jesus. If Jesus would just get on board with our plan things would go swimmingly. Murray had a dream a few years ago that illustrates the point perfectly. And it all has to do with the inner way. Tune in as Josh and Murray share their perspectives!

For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/

For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/

Transcript

00;00;15;29 - 00;00;25;04
Speaker 1
Meet. People were coming and growing, and he would have us. And we're like that. And they'd be walking away. I mean, equipment, you know, a place up.

00;00;25;05 - 00;00;34;27
Speaker 2
And that's probably what the disciples try. I so imagine disciples running after people. Oh, no no no no no. It's okay. Yeah.

00;00;35;00 - 00;00;37;17
Speaker 1
It just it's okay. Just hang around. You get it eventually.

00;00;37;21 - 00;00;42;19
Speaker 2
It's spiritual bread. Yeah. It was funny. The dream. Right.

00;00;42;26 - 00;01;01;28
Unknown
Once he got on here. Oh he's like I mean. You.

00;01;02;00 - 00;01;13;22
Speaker 2
Hey, everybody. And welcome to another episode of voices from the desert Rose are out.

00;01;13;24 - 00;01;18;16
Unknown
And sold for 1000.

00;01;18;19 - 00;01;25;01
Speaker 1
I'm going to make a recording of my sheep dogs Desert when the Dremel. This was a nice little building tool goes off. They start to howl like you wouldn't believe.

00;01;25;02 - 00;01;51;00
Speaker 2
Oh, really? Oh, oh. Oh, yeah. All right. And for the record. For the record. Yeah. I have met your sheepdogs, haven't I not? Yes, that's right everybody. I was in BC last week and I stumbled upon Murray's ranch. And let me tell you, there's, there is poop everywhere. Yeah. The busy. Yes. Yeah. Ranch or farm. What would you say?

00;01;51;00 - 00;01;52;16
Speaker 2
It's a farm, right? Yeah.

00;01;52;16 - 00;01;53;29
Speaker 1
20 acres is probably more.

00;01;54;01 - 00;02;17;16
Speaker 2
Yeah, probably. Yeah. That's right. Yes. So I got to meet all the pups. Yeah. I got, Aiden successors. I met them, right. I met the they were quite dirty. Yeah, yeah, I met the sheep that doesn't know that he's a sheep and thinks he's a dog, right? Yeah. And he followed me around. I, I made the mistake of petting him right on the head.

00;02;17;19 - 00;02;20;27
Speaker 2
And then he followed me around the rest of the time. Yeah.

00;02;21;00 - 00;02;23;00
Speaker 1
And, get me out of here, pal.

00;02;23;04 - 00;02;34;06
Speaker 2
Yeah, that was wonderful. He was? Yeah. Kept me out of your. That's right. He was. He was like, oh, yeah, scratch my ears and pet me. And it was like, yeah, he thinks he's a dog. He's so.

00;02;34;06 - 00;02;37;02
Speaker 1
Mad that he can't live in the house like you stand for me doing.

00;02;37;02 - 00;02;37;25
Speaker 2
Like. Oh, yeah.

00;02;37;25 - 00;02;42;18
Speaker 1
Listen, at the puppy I just got this look at just depressed.

00;02;42;20 - 00;02;45;09
Speaker 2
Where are the other sheep, then?

00;02;45;11 - 00;02;48;13
Speaker 1
Well, they sleep, in the front yard. They have a shelter, so they.

00;02;48;13 - 00;02;51;11
Speaker 2
Are around there. But because he wasn't around any of them, I never saw that.

00;02;51;11 - 00;02;52;02
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah.

00;02;52;04 - 00;02;52;28
Speaker 2
Oh, my God.

00;02;52;29 - 00;02;55;18
Speaker 1
He hates you. He's not a sheep. According to him, he's a dog.

00;02;55;18 - 00;03;04;10
Speaker 2
Yeah, or even a cat, you could tell. Yeah, he was way. He was really comfortable just following along beside us when you were showing us around. It was awesome.

00;03;04;10 - 00;03;06;14
Speaker 1
Yeah. Mary had a little lamb, right?

00;03;06;14 - 00;03;07;00
Speaker 2
That's right.

00;03;07;00 - 00;03;09;23
Speaker 1
So to school, I confirm that.

00;03;09;23 - 00;03;24;04
Speaker 2
Could be. That's right. I've confirmed that the farm is a real farm. That there's actually, a hobby happening there, you know, recovering the, animals that have suffered abuse on some level. Right.

00;03;24;06 - 00;03;30;24
Speaker 1
Eden's way. Farm sanctuary. Everybody go to YouTube. I'm not sorry. Facebook or, Google and check it out.

00;03;30;24 - 00;03;50;10
Speaker 2
And also, for the record, for those people that, have followed and, been around Murray for a long time, you know, we're taking maybe Samuel's mantle. Graduates, I know there's people that listen to the show. I have seen Murray on a tractor. And, yes.

00;03;50;13 - 00;03;52;04
Speaker 1
You'll never forget it. It was only 30s.

00;03;52;05 - 00;04;01;16
Speaker 2
Yeah. You got off the tractor and you said. I bet you that, Well, how did you say what did you say? You jumped off the tractor and said you brought. You'll probably. You've probably never seen that before or something like that. Yeah.

00;04;01;17 - 00;04;03;00
Speaker 1
You you'll never get that image out.

00;04;03;01 - 00;04;22;25
Speaker 2
You'll never guess. That's right, that's right. Yeah. You'll never get that image of your hair. And it was like I told, they're in that today. Murray was on the tractor. Like, here's the guy who was doing all the prophetic training in front of the classes. And now I just watched him move the tractor like it was nothing. You know, it would take me about 25 minutes to figure out how to turn it on.

00;04;22;27 - 00;04;43;05
Speaker 2
And then I'd probably run it through the side of the house before figuring out how to go forward. So, yeah, it was happy. Yes, yes, it was wonderful getting to see the getting to see the farm and meet the animals and survey the landscape. And you took us up to the top and we got to, see the prayer mountain and all this kind of stuff.

00;04;43;05 - 00;04;47;11
Speaker 2
It was awesome. Oh. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. Great fun. So.

00;04;47;14 - 00;04;58;07
Speaker 1
So I'll throw a plug in here while we do it. Yeah. Speaking of courses, I'm still doing, and you are to of courses online. We have a little four week course starting October the 22nd.

00;04;58;14 - 00;05;00;18
Speaker 2
There you go on a Monday.

00;05;00;20 - 00;05;21;15
Speaker 1
And it's four weeks on called surprised by the Voice of God. And it's it's kind of introductory. It's just to, you know, why do we want to hear God speak right, right. You'll leave us in on this nature. So one on dreams, one on, crazy physical events like what you just had happen. One on spiritual sensitivity and one on learning to have vision.

00;05;21;15 - 00;05;28;28
Speaker 1
Just, you know, so if anybody's interested for weeks, come and join us. Sammy's mental.com or Sammy's mental Facebook.

00;05;29;05 - 00;05;35;12
Speaker 2
There you go. Find that there'll be a link in the show description to schools mental.com as well. So you can.

00;05;35;12 - 00;05;40;00
Speaker 1
Also find I know I haven't told anyone when you said this is a guy that did classes. Oh yeah, I should actually tell.

00;05;40;00 - 00;06;04;09
Speaker 2
Them I'm doing that. So that's right. Yeah. It was, it was I think I can recount last Monday when Murray walked into the meeting that, you know, we were both attending, in Kamloops at Kamloops. That's why I was there. Yeah. The, the, organization that both of us belonged to, we had our annual gathering, and so we were both there.

00;06;04;09 - 00;06;10;08
Speaker 2
Murray the birdie looked at me and went, it's so weird seeing you in person. Yeah, yeah, I didn't.

00;06;10;08 - 00;06;11;17
Speaker 1
Feel any different.

00;06;11;20 - 00;06;28;15
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's right. It's always digital. And then I had someone go, oh, you know, like, where do you live in Kamloops to me. Right. And I was like, oh really? Even bc I thought you were like close to Murray. Like you guys are always recording together and it's like, across the.

00;06;28;18 - 00;06;32;25
Speaker 1
That's nice to know. That's how we got it at, right at the same time we.

00;06;32;25 - 00;06;52;21
Speaker 2
Recorded together, let alone who it was also. But someone, someone had mentioned seeing the videos together and, oh, we live close to each other. It's like, oh, no. So, Yeah. Anyway, we had a great time, had coffee together, got to wander the food, had some sushi together, got to wander. The property was great. Wonderful thing out with uma.

00;06;52;23 - 00;06;59;22
Speaker 2
So and and we've got a doozy of an episode lined up for today, I think. I hope so, yeah.

00;06;59;26 - 00;07;01;29
Speaker 1
That's what your definition of doozy.

00;07;01;29 - 00;07;02;13
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;07;02;16 - 00;07;04;15
Speaker 1
That's right. That's a word that's probably.

00;07;04;15 - 00;07;10;00
Speaker 2
What's that mean? Yeah, that could be any number of things. Right. We might put you to sleep or we might.

00;07;10;02 - 00;07;12;25
Speaker 1
I have one cow when it poops. It's a doozy.

00;07;13;00 - 00;07;21;05
Speaker 2
Yeah, I, yeah, if we had a doozy of an episode, like, that would be, takes on a whole.

00;07;21;08 - 00;07;24;07
Speaker 1
But like I said, that word is, you know, you could apply it like.

00;07;24;09 - 00;07;46;19
Speaker 2
Like in many ways. Yeah. And and for those of you that are potentially watching this on YouTube, you'll notice that my bookshelves are empty behind me. Murray was quite shocked and, well, not shocked, you know, but we're we're moving our office space. So, right now we're packing everything up and putting it, storing it away for a couple of months while we, figure out a couple things.

00;07;46;19 - 00;07;48;19
Speaker 2
So that's why the.

00;07;48;21 - 00;07;50;02
Speaker 1
It's shelves are empty.

00;07;50;04 - 00;07;51;05
Speaker 2
You know, I don't. My God.

00;07;51;06 - 00;07;51;25
Speaker 1
Is part.

00;07;51;28 - 00;08;15;08
Speaker 2
My my X-Wing star Wars X-Wing. Yeah, that's that's my am I big Lego. The other starship, the Voyager Collector's Edition. Like little, big, huge one back here that the kids and I built one Christmas is missing. So makes me feel I should put those back. I know, just for. Just for the recording. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. That's right, that's right.

00;08;15;12 - 00;08;15;21
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;08;15;23 - 00;08;17;25
Speaker 1
All those theological books put back the Lego.

00;08;17;25 - 00;08;35;20
Speaker 2
Yes. And and that's also why, by the way, my trip out to B.C. is also why there was not a new episode posted for the podcast last week. So for those of you that were forlornly waiting for a new podcast, that's right. Murray and I were busy having sushi when I would normally have been editing. So that's true.

00;08;35;20 - 00;08;45;23
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. And I don't regret it one bit. So yeah. Although remember the sushi guy when I asked for an extra little thing of dipping sauce for the,

00;08;45;25 - 00;08;46;20
Speaker 1
He called you out?

00;08;46;21 - 00;08;50;29
Speaker 2
He called me out? Yeah. He was like, it will not be good with that sauce.

00;08;51;01 - 00;08;52;19
Speaker 1
Yes, you ruin it, you'll.

00;08;52;19 - 00;08;55;07
Speaker 2
Ruin it is what he said. I really appreciated that. Yeah.

00;08;55;07 - 00;08;56;03
Speaker 1
So he was right.

00;08;56;06 - 00;08;58;17
Speaker 2
He was right. Actually. He was. Yeah.

00;08;58;20 - 00;09;00;23
Speaker 1
Talking about humility and life lesson.

00;09;00;28 - 00;09;22;05
Speaker 2
That that brings us to the topic of every one of our podcasts received. It seems to. Yeah, yeah. Well, Murray, you you you would message me of the day going, well, you know, maybe we could talk about this. And you were sharing a, dream that you'd have. How long ago would you have the stream that you shared?

00;09;22;06 - 00;09;32;20
Speaker 1
Oh, it's one of those that you'll never forget which which always makes it seem really fresh. If you've ever had right dreams. And it kind of burned into my memory. But I bet you it was a year ago.

00;09;32;20 - 00;09;33;20
Speaker 2
Okay.

00;09;33;23 - 00;09;36;25
Speaker 1
Somewhere within that time period. I don't think it's more than that, but it could be.

00;09;37;00 - 00;09;56;00
Speaker 2
We've been on this. Yeah, that's right, that's right. We've been on this track of, the inner way of Christ. Right. Actually, I had I read recently in the Psalms. Psalms is Psalm 88 or 89, something like that. Oh, I was loud.

00;09;56;04 - 00;09;59;09
Speaker 1
That's my internal life coming external.

00;09;59;12 - 00;10;23;09
Speaker 2
And it it talks about how, that, says blessed as a man. What the, the, the Book of Common Prayer, which I had one here. The translation of the Book of Common Prayer says, blessed is the man whom in whom, in whose heart are the pilgrim ways, and, the, the and the pilgrim ways.

00;10;23;09 - 00;10;52;11
Speaker 2
The the word is very specific. And it was the, the roads in the, in the hills that all came back to Jerusalem. Oh, right. So that people would take the pilgrim roads to come back for the feasts and the gatherings and all that kind of stuff. Right. And, and so the, the, you know, ostensibly the spiritual meaning of the text is, blessed is the man in whose heart is the road home.

00;10;52;14 - 00;10;53;14
Speaker 2
Right. Wow.

00;10;53;14 - 00;10;54;12
Speaker 1
That's beautiful. Yeah.

00;10;54;12 - 00;11;15;13
Speaker 2
It is. Well, and that's what we've been talking about is we've been on this kick for a while, is talking about what's it like to take the inner journey home. All right. Home being to to our home is not of this world, right? Our home is the heavenly city. And so we've set our sights there, and we live our life.

00;11;15;13 - 00;11;32;09
Speaker 2
I actually, I, I read a quote the other day by Bob Mumford, of all people, who I don't think we've ever brought up, but I picked up a book of his recently. He said, it's very difficult to get lost when you're on a straight road. And I thought, that's a good point. That's a really good point.

00;11;32;12 - 00;11;52;14
Speaker 2
Right there. You have to you have to purposefully get lost if you're on the straight road and you have to go, nope, this road isn't doing it for me. And and some of our the that we've talked about are your the theories of salvation, the way we see the church's place in the world where we're aiming all these things.

00;11;52;17 - 00;12;12;23
Speaker 2
It's like the existential crisis happens for Christians because these things cause them to question the road they're on. When realistically, the road is a straight road, it should be quite simple. It's the Pilgrim road and it's the road home. How do we get there? Humility. Tenderness, love, kindness.

00;12;13;00 - 00;12;14;02
Speaker 1
Live out of the Beatitudes.

00;12;14;02 - 00;12;33;16
Speaker 2
We live out of the Bible. Say, this is the. That's the pilgrim road. That's the pilgrim road that's in the heart. So that's what we've been talking about is the inner way and, and, and what part prayer plays in that inner way, which prayer is the inner? It's not like it's to separate and distinct. It is the road is prayer, and prayer is the road.

00;12;33;19 - 00;13;15;23
Speaker 2
And, and so that's what we've been talking about. And so it kind of has brought us, in the course of our conversation to a conversation around the passions, the things that mark us and the things that we need to recover from. And so in the context of all of that giving this recap, Murray, Murray was thinking about this dream that he had and how accurately so accurately it illustrates the mark the passions have upon us, but also in, in, in, in a bigger way, how we do, you know, the kind of problems we have when we see the church and our role in the world through some of these lenses

00;13;15;23 - 00;13;19;25
Speaker 2
we've talked about before. So do you want to share the dream? Yeah, let.

00;13;19;25 - 00;13;22;20
Speaker 1
Me share it. So everybody as I, as I pull it up here.

00;13;22;23 - 00;13;23;10
Speaker 2
It'll be a great.

00;13;23;10 - 00;13;48;21
Speaker 1
To talking about the passions. Last week. And you know, what are these passions and, and, and, you know, the churches had very specific ways to deal with them. And I, again, I think they break them down. The ancient desert fathers would break them down into. Yeah. And incisive, I think, which be I mean sense passions of the soul appetite ev which would be passions of the body like sex and gluttony.

00;13;48;24 - 00;13;50;18
Speaker 1
And then you said, what was the third one? Always forget that.

00;13;50;18 - 00;13;53;02
Speaker 2
Rational. The rational. Yeah. Which is the.

00;13;53;02 - 00;14;17;01
Speaker 1
Mind. Right. So for the appetite it of you fast for the rational. You do, do spiritual reading and for the, I guess the, insensitive. It's the Jesus prayer. So I mean, so, you know, you know, we need we can go into that a lot more. But the point is, the church is identified some very significant issues in mankind that need healing.

00;14;17;04 - 00;14;37;14
Speaker 1
And they need to be addressed like wounds. They need to be addressed. And to get that across. I hope we've got that across already. I thought, well, you know what? I have this dream. Maybe this would help people realize part of the problem, you know, these different sins, insensitive would be these ones in this room might be sins of emotion.

00;14;37;16 - 00;14;55;05
Speaker 1
Right. I think if you want to put it that way. And rational. What is my plan? What am I planning? You know, this inner world that needs healing. It's so broken. I think this dream we really models, you know, the knowledge of the tree of good and evil, the fall, the brokenness in mankind. And it needs healing.

00;14;55;07 - 00;15;14;11
Speaker 1
So we. You know, I still think we think it's a minor sin. I'm going to come under judgment. I you know, I think a lot of our way, we look at mankind or even the church. It's more like, no, you're broken. You need healing, right? We we need to have a different paradigm. So, you know, I hope this dream helps with that.

00;15;14;13 - 00;15;15;17
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;15;15;19 - 00;15;25;26
Speaker 1
All right, so here we go. And I titled it The Stones and the Dragon and Jesus. I don't know why. The dragon. I should take that out of there anyway, I'll edited it another time.

00;15;25;29 - 00;15;28;28
Speaker 2
There you go. Had this dream.

00;15;29;01 - 00;15;45;14
Speaker 1
I had this dream. We were hanging out with Jesus as of today, 2024. And I was one of the disciples. My friend Scott was there, too, and a bunch of other people I knew as well. Jesus had chosen us to be his disciples. Just like on the TV show The Chosen and we were waiting for big things to happen.

00;15;45;14 - 00;16;07;01
Speaker 1
We've been following them around now and boy, something's going on. Healings are happening. People are being delivered. It's amazing. This puppet popularity continues to increase. More and more TV stations were picking up what he was doing. The crowds were getting bigger. It felt like being a part of something very big that was going somewhere. But Jesus was pretty enigmatic.

00;16;07;03 - 00;16;27;00
Speaker 1
You could never know quite what he was going to do or say to keep building the audience. It was quite frustrating as he almost didn't seem to have the people skills to pull it off. He was missing some tact or something, and it was almost as if he needed people like us to help him understand normal people. But miracles are always happening and so you could just put up with that.

00;16;27;00 - 00;16;39;17
Speaker 1
So I think in the dream he was meet, people were coming and growing and he would offend them. And we're like, and they'd be walking away. He didn't mean it quite like that. You didn't quite understand or, you know, like, oh my goodness, what's going on? But then something would happen.

00;16;39;18 - 00;16;48;02
Speaker 2
Probably what the disciples tried to get him. I could so imagine the disciples running after people and going, wow, oh no, no no no, it's okay. Yeah.

00;16;48;05 - 00;16;51;05
Speaker 1
Yeah, just it's okay. Just hang around. You'll get it eventually. It'll it's.

00;16;51;05 - 00;16;54;15
Speaker 2
Spiritual bread. Yeah, yeah.

00;16;54;17 - 00;17;08;14
Speaker 1
But it was funny in the dream were like, you know what? He's got all these gifts, all these miracles. God's doing stuff. He's got to be the Son of God. But, boy, he doesn't know how to work with people. He offends everybody. Like, well, you know, if he's going to build something, that's a sure the wrong way to do it.

00;17;08;14 - 00;17;32;28
Speaker 1
He really needs us as intermediaries with the culture. Right? You know that. That's what we were thinking. It was quite it was quite interesting. So, okay. Jesus had become a more enigmatic and even rude also, as we disciples had become more famous, being interviewed on The View and the talk shows to get the word out, he see more strange talking in riddles, disappearing, not spending time with us, or explaining things.

00;17;33;01 - 00;17;49;27
Speaker 1
I personally felt very lost and left out. Jesus hadn't talked to me personally for weeks, and even when he was around, he was answering everyone else's questions and giving them tasks, but not me. I felt like a second string goalie who was always sitting on the bench watching everyone else play. And I wasn't the only one feeling like this either.

00;17;49;27 - 00;18;11;15
Speaker 1
Scott, my friend, had gone angry, disappeared, and another disciple decided to challenge Jesus on live television. So I that would it be Judas. This disciple had really hit it off with the news media and he'd become their voice. He was great on the TV shows and talk shows, explaining what Jesus his message was. And, the TV's crews really trusted this guy.

00;18;11;17 - 00;18;29;07
Speaker 1
I remember watching Jesus come out of the building and his disciples was this disciple was standing there with the news crews, ready to challenge Jesus to his face. Where are you? Why are you skipping these meetings? What are you doing to these poor TV crews that are all set up? Jesus was not doing what everyone expected and was messing up prime time and all the TV ratings.

00;18;29;13 - 00;18;52;19
Speaker 1
People had committed to following him, and now they were turning the channel to the TV channels. Sorry. And now they were turning the channel and the TV channels that had committed them were angry about this, like Jesus had done it to them on purpose. In the midst of all of this, it felt like we had held it together just long enough to get to the final airing of The One Big Show.

00;18;52;22 - 00;19;13;05
Speaker 1
It was going to be held inside a Save-On-Foods building, which is a grocery chain in our part of the world. We all walked in with Jesus in the building and the building was empty. Just a white tiled floor. Not even a shelf. Jesus just said, well, this isn't going to happen and walked out. No meeting, no TV cameras, no people, no miracles.

00;19;13;05 - 00;19;19;28
Speaker 1
People were done angry, I think. Angry enough to kill them. Don't don't. Here we thought.

00;19;20;00 - 00;19;21;13
Speaker 2
The plot thickens.

00;19;21;15 - 00;19;38;07
Speaker 1
Yeah. Here we thought Jesus had come to do something special for mankind. But it turned out he was always offending us, abandoning us, ignoring us. We were done with it. We had left everything to follow Jesus for this. At the end, a few of us were left. We had no idea where Jesus had gone or if he was coming back.

00;19;38;14 - 00;20;01;15
Speaker 1
It felt like we were all national embarrassment on public TV. We were tired, abandoned, disheartened. It felt like we were beaten all black and blue by our expectations. What people thought of us, Jesus. Jesus continually changing his mind and disappearing. And what was this all meant for our personal lives, our families, our kids, our careers? As a few of us remaining, we're sitting around this table talking and we hadn't slept in days.

00;20;01;15 - 00;20;21;16
Speaker 1
I have been brackets. One of us began to read out of the Bible, or maybe it was something Jesus had given us personally as this person began to read. We can understand from the scripture about dragons eggs, and a clarifying thought. The eggs were actually gemstones of great value. As this person read, we began to see everything that had just happened in the new light.

00;20;21;23 - 00;20;41;03
Speaker 1
According to this text, we mankind were incredibly broken, in fact, that we had taken on many aspects and attributes of the dragon. At that moment. I looked down and my fingernails even looked a little bit like talons. It was like all of us, without knowing it, were covered in dragon scales. But inside of each one of us were hidden.

00;20;41;03 - 00;20;57;26
Speaker 1
All these precious jewels. But the only way to discover the precious jewels was to first see that you were covered in dragon scales. Then they hit the dragon scales and then want to get rid of them. And then you could get at the treasure that was really buried deep inside of us, which would be a symbol of the kingdom of heaven.

00;20;57;28 - 00;21;17;06
Speaker 1
The only way to do all of this was to hate the parades of people, to forget about our own personal needs and futures, and to quit comparing ourselves to one another and choose to love anyway and believe we are loved by God. Once a person can do all of this, a little pouch would open up on their arms and the dragon scales would give way and the jewels would just come tumbling out.

00;21;17;09 - 00;21;37;08
Speaker 1
There were hidden inside of us the whole time, and suddenly all of Jesus enigmatic actions, slights, direction, feints, pretend meetings you don't meet. Since he was trying to send the mind to reveal the heart he was trying to get us to see the dragon scales were all covered in trying to get us to see all thus self self capitalized.

00;21;37;08 - 00;21;55;03
Speaker 1
We lived in to begin to hate it, to find the jewel of the kingdom hidden inside ourselves. That was it. That was only revealed by losing our lives to find it. As we were sitting around the table beginning to understand these things, the Holy Spirit came upon all of us and we suddenly understood the love of God individually for each of us.

00;21;55;06 - 00;22;11;23
Speaker 1
He was just waiting to pour the spirit upon us. But we first needed to be offended to discover a love of self, then hate it, then choose to love despite and then freedom from the things of the world came. And then the precious jewels and the infilling of the Holy Spirit began.

00;22;11;25 - 00;22;26;02
Speaker 2
My Amen. Amen. There you go through, right? Yeah. And for those of you that are listening, you can maybe pause and rewind and listen to it again, because there's a lot to take in there. Yeah.

00;22;26;05 - 00;22;27;13
Speaker 1
You need to hear it at least twice, I think.

00;22;27;13 - 00;22;57;27
Speaker 2
Yeah. And. Well, yeah, the here's here is, I mean, there's so many things that we could talk about here with this one. I love that you the the the final, you know, the final push where you guys are. You see the dragon scales, you see your the talons. There's something hidden within. This is what you've just described is, but we've talked a lot about is the thesis journey.

00;22;58;00 - 00;23;00;03
Speaker 1
Yes. And it does fit right back to that again.

00;23;00;03 - 00;23;00;22
Speaker 2
It really does.

00;23;00;25 - 00;23;03;23
Speaker 1
Which is the whole point of the whole journey. Right. We've got.

00;23;03;25 - 00;23;23;07
Speaker 2
Propagation. We've got the stages of progression. Right. Oh my goodness. I'm, I'm recognizing all these patterns and habits I didn't realize I had them. Yeah yeah. We've got illumination. There's something inside that God is trying to get at. I can't get to it unless I throw off this other stuff. Right.

00;23;23;12 - 00;23;28;07
Speaker 1
Which is funny. I never thought about that until you said it right now. All right. It's. You're right for illumination.

00;23;28;09 - 00;23;45;25
Speaker 2
And then you've got the deification part where now we can be filled with the spirit. Now we have a revelation. And that what the the catalyst for being filled with the spirit in the dream is the revelation of the love of God, which is, you know, this. It's entirely biblical, right? It's like, it's funny how biblical it actually is.

00;23;45;28 - 00;24;06;17
Speaker 2
And, and so you've got you've got it just encapsulated in that last part. You have the that personal, you know, as we've had father Mike on talking about the personal and the corporate journey of the Osis. Right. And how the, the you know, he used the analogy of the different layers of the forest. They're all kind of growing at different stages at different time.

00;24;06;21 - 00;24;29;11
Speaker 2
Right. And so there's overlap and there's where I'm recognizing how dragon like I am. But at the same time I'm recognizing how dragon like I am. I'm recognizing that God's put treasure hidden deep within the human heart. And so it's it's not just okay, now, statically I see sin, I see holiness, I see God, you know, it's this.

00;24;29;11 - 00;24;54;04
Speaker 2
Yes. It's this beautiful, you know, what's the word I'm looking for? An organic way of growing and recognizing what he's doing and how he's doing it. Right. So we've got we've got that the the the the layer of the dream that is, very much the pilgrim Road home. Right? That we were just talking about it very much is.

00;24;54;04 - 00;25;12;27
Speaker 2
But we also have this layer of the dream that serves on this macro level, which I love, the first part of the dream and how it's, it's it's to me and this is what the thing that I think really captured me about the dream and why we wonder why I wanted to have the conversation, you know, when Mary brought it up.

00;25;12;29 - 00;25;31;19
Speaker 2
Is the growing divide in the dream between the way your group as disciples do things and the way Jesus does things? Yeah, right. And there's this, there's this. You know, it starts off with this like, hey, we're part of the club. Like, you know, this is.

00;25;31;21 - 00;25;32;25
Speaker 1
The chosen man.

00;25;32;26 - 00;25;56;16
Speaker 2
Right? We're chosen. Yeah. We're it. Right. So there's this. And then over ten years, like, you know, he's doing miracles. We get to hang out. It's like a rock star. We're the posse, right? Yeah. And then there's this growing divide between the. The more, the more structure and promotion gets in the mix. Right. So like, we got to go on this show and this show and I mean they're going on The View.

00;25;56;16 - 00;26;11;21
Speaker 2
So it's evil from the get go. Yeah. Yeah I, I did catch that. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Well you know this is where we'll, we'll talk about that. It's not about the, the latest from The View. They're probably perfectly nice if you met them in real life. They're not nice on their show but they might be nice in real life.

00;26;11;23 - 00;26;13;23
Speaker 1
I've actually never watched it, so.

00;26;13;25 - 00;26;33;21
Speaker 2
Yeah, you don't need to. I've just seen clips, but yeah, there's a really, really funny clip with, oh. What's his name? Gosh, the comedian, that's right. You know, Norm, Norm MacDonald.

00;26;33;23 - 00;26;34;28
Speaker 1
Oh, okay. Yeah.

00;26;35;05 - 00;26;56;20
Speaker 2
Anyway, any any of you that are looking for a laugh, go look up the Norm MacDonald, norm MacDonald, Barbara Walters clip. It's it's really funny. Is it talks about, Clinton killing people in the white House. It's really funny. Oh, boy. Anyway, anyway, well, sidenote that's a totally off off topic bracket. Yeah. In brackets. Now back to dream.

00;26;56;20 - 00;27;21;13
Speaker 2
Right? So there's this growing rift between the disciples and Jesus and and and you know, it. It's so funny because in we were saying this before we went, and started recording is what strikes me is that as the group of disciples, the disciples look at Jesus and he's actually the problem, right? He's the one who called them.

00;27;21;16 - 00;27;35;00
Speaker 2
He's the one who's doing the miracles. But basically, by the end of the dream, the disciple, the group of disciples you're in, are you guys are going, well, if you just get on board, like, everything would be fine, all right? But you just.

00;27;35;03 - 00;27;36;19
Speaker 1
Take the kingdom already.

00;27;36;19 - 00;27;37;09
Speaker 2
Just. Yes.

00;27;37;09 - 00;27;39;12
Speaker 1
Go sit on the throne in Jerusalem.

00;27;39;14 - 00;28;14;16
Speaker 2
Right? If you would just do it. That's right. If he'd just come on. And I was thinking about it, it's like. I mean, it's so perfectly encapsulates the, the, the contemporary 21st century church culture that we find ourselves in. Yeah. And, where it's all about the vision. It's all about strategic planning. It's all about grow, build how, you know, how do you like, just just, you know, conversations with pastors this past week, you know, how, how do we grow our church?

00;28;14;16 - 00;28;34;16
Speaker 2
What are the growth strategies? What's the vision? What's the implementation? How do we how do we hold meetings where miracles happen? You know, we have revival meetings like we're promising. I don't understand this. We promise a revival meeting before revival even happens. When we say this right now, a revival is a type of meeting. It's not even a thing that happens.

00;28;34;19 - 00;29;00;15
Speaker 2
And it's like. It's like we have all this way of doing and growing and building and and most of the time we're just hoping that Jesus shows up and then he oftentimes doesn't in the way that we hope he does. Right? Yeah. And then and then if you think about it, you're just we're just pinpointing that realistically what the where the church stands today is essentially we're going like, Jesus, we've done it all.

00;29;00;15 - 00;29;25;20
Speaker 2
You're the problem now right? That's kind of that's and I think the dreams very accurate in that sense is our problem is not with the culture around us. Right. Like we've got the woke culture and the culture wars right? Yeah. Yeah. We've got the broken institution, the political institution, the broken education system. And so the church loves to point at all those things and saying, you know, that's the problem with the world.

00;29;25;20 - 00;29;45;04
Speaker 2
But I think what the church is really saying is Jesus is the problem because he hasn't shown up in the way. And we've been doing all the work and we've been strategizing and building, and we have the miracle meetings, and then nothing happens and nothing changes. So realistically, what we're saying is actually Jesus, if you just change and get on board with what we're doing, things would start to progress again.

00;29;45;04 - 00;30;07;28
Speaker 2
And you're the problem. And that's where we are headed. I think that is quite prophetic in that sense, where we're headed as we go. If Jesus would just change how he did things, then we could finally start getting along with the business of building the kingdom. And it's a yes man. I was looking at that going, oh, we're like, let's spread the word, bring the kingdom, preach the gospel, create space for miracles.

00;30;07;28 - 00;30;13;15
Speaker 2
If Jesus would just get on board, maybe it would all happen. Yeah. And and then he began.

00;30;13;18 - 00;30;20;11
Speaker 1
And I think we all think that way. I mean, if we just look at, unfortunately, the things that have happened, you know, in Mike Nichols ministry or Rick Joyner's.

00;30;20;13 - 00;30;22;04
Speaker 2
Yeah. That's right. I mean.

00;30;22;07 - 00;30;39;29
Speaker 1
Is that not this? Right? Yeah. Let's build this big center and get on it and then do this and that. And and then we're not working on our inner lives and nothing's changing there. Yeah. And then we reap this and we wonder what's going on. Right. And how many times does that happen now? I mean, the big church in Texas, who's that guy?

00;30;39;29 - 00;31;01;25
Speaker 1
100,000 Robert Morris. Yeah. And then, you know, Mars Hill, I mean, let's, you know, let's just go on and on. And it's it's like we have a cultural paradigm of, of, you know, the, the and apostle Lee is a CEO. He you know, that's what we're thinking, right? He builds it. That's his job. Start things right. You know, his job is to model the nature of Christ.

00;31;01;28 - 00;31;02;10
Speaker 2
Right.

00;31;02;13 - 00;31;07;11
Speaker 1
Right in the midst of things, which is, you know, right. If you know, to have Steve Schroeder.

00;31;07;15 - 00;31;30;05
Speaker 2
Well, here, here. Yeah. We should here's the thing. Well, we have we have actually, we were going to have Steve on and then personal life circumstances happen. So, the thing is there's lots of conversations today. Well, we're taking our city for Jesus, right? That's you'll find that conversation quite often happening in church circles. And so we're strategizing around the vision for taking the city.

00;31;30;07 - 00;31;35;08
Speaker 2
And so what that means is we have to have better services, bigger services, more bombastic services.

00;31;35;09 - 00;31;36;24
Speaker 1
Better worship leader, better worship.

00;31;36;24 - 00;31;37;07
Speaker 2
Leader, better.

00;31;37;07 - 00;31;38;01
Speaker 1
Preaching.

00;31;38;03 - 00;31;58;25
Speaker 2
Better better social media, better graphics. You know, we've got to have all that kind of stuff, right from the from the beginning to the end. We have to have better things so that so the strategy isn't how how did Jesus go about impacting the world? The strategy is how can we do it and then have Jesus come alongside us?

00;31;58;27 - 00;32;19;00
Speaker 2
Yeah, right. Because because Jesus goes he goes out and he goes, well, let's go feed the poor guys, right? That's his strategy, right? He's focused on the the locus of his ministry is the individual in front of him, not the city that he's trying to win. And so he goes, let's pray for this one person. Let's change this one person.

00;32;19;02 - 00;32;32;00
Speaker 2
Right. Let's bring food to this one person. Let's pray. Let's give sight to this one person. So he's terrible at building an effective strategy for conquering a region. It's terrible at it because.

00;32;32;02 - 00;32;32;26
Speaker 1
He's always focused.

00;32;32;26 - 00;32;34;19
Speaker 2
Individual is way too focused on them.

00;32;34;19 - 00;32;38;28
Speaker 1
Instead of focusing on building a corporate structure.

00;32;38;28 - 00;32;54;02
Speaker 2
He's. Yeah, there's there's he doesn't care. And then even when he has the corporate gathering and he goes, hey, you guys are going to eat my flesh and drink my blood, right? All the offense. That's right. Your friends, all of them. Right. And then only 12 are left and they're like, well, we don't have anywhere else to go.

00;32;54;02 - 00;33;16;02
Speaker 2
So. Right. They're still trying to wrestle with getting it. And you're like, he was he had no in the in the in the contemporary sense. He had no strategic vision like he would be. He would drive most vision quote unquote visionary strategic leaders. Crazy because they go, well, what's your vision for the ministry? And he would go, well, that person right there, it would be, well, you say that person.

00;33;16;02 - 00;33;20;11
Speaker 2
Yeah. You my flesh drink my blood. Is it that person right there? That's my vision for the ministry.

00;33;20;11 - 00;33;21;21
Speaker 1
Who? Touch me. Yeah. What?

00;33;21;27 - 00;33;22;08
Speaker 2
That's right.

00;33;22;09 - 00;33;23;27
Speaker 1
Thousand people are. Are you? What are you talking about?

00;33;24;00 - 00;33;52;09
Speaker 2
Right, buddy? Talk to me, my guy. Yeah. That's right. Marble's. My vision for the ministry. Is this woman broken in blood, broken, broken. And with the issue of blood, right? That's right. So he's he. It's like. It's like it's still. It's so stands in opposition to build, conquer, grow. And it's not even like build, conquer, grow are necessarily the wrong thing to do, but they replace like.

00;33;52;11 - 00;33;53;16
Speaker 1
Like who's the problem that's.

00;33;53;16 - 00;34;19;10
Speaker 2
The problem is they replace the formation of the of the inner man who goes. Because it's the distinction between this, right? It's like, let's go into the streets of our city to win our city versus let's go feed the poor. And suddenly our city comes to us, right? It's the it can be the same exact idea and implementation from an entirely different posture.

00;34;19;15 - 00;34;31;06
Speaker 2
And this is where are the are the is the road home in your heart, or is the road to your own exaltation in your heart? Which one's there? Right? Yeah.

00;34;31;06 - 00;34;34;04
Speaker 1
Until God offends the mind to reveal the heart like the. Yeah.

00;34;34;04 - 00;34;34;21
Speaker 2
That's right.

00;34;34;22 - 00;34;42;13
Speaker 1
You know, Simeon, the old guy prays over Jesus at the temple, right? This child will causing the rising and falling. So the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed.

00;34;42;13 - 00;34;51;20
Speaker 2
I you know, I, I had this thought once, Mary, and this might be really, really, really cool. This might be one of the most controversial ones I've said. I hope it is. Oh, it's probably not.

00;34;51;23 - 00;34;52;29
Speaker 1
You mean other than.

00;34;53;02 - 00;34;56;11
Speaker 2
The. Yeah, or whatever it is. So, yeah, in.

00;34;56;12 - 00;34;56;29
Speaker 1
Society.

00;34;57;00 - 00;35;02;23
Speaker 2
You know, salvation by faith alone destroyed modern society. That's still one of my favorites.

00;35;02;25 - 00;35;03;16
Speaker 1
I'm still, like.

00;35;03;18 - 00;35;07;05
Speaker 2
Covering for that. Well, this one. Yeah. This one. It's a little smaller in scope.

00;35;07;05 - 00;35;08;29
Speaker 1
Oh, okay.

00;35;09;01 - 00;35;30;10
Speaker 2
The with the current state of prophetic ministry, which we talked about in the Prophetic Manifesto. Right. So not to not to belabor the point too much with the current state of prophetic ministry. I, I sometimes I wonder if all of these prophetic voices that are going like, you know, this person's going to be president because it's all starting up again, right?

00;35;30;10 - 00;35;51;13
Speaker 2
This person is going to be president and God is going to make America great or Canada great, and revival of, of, spiritual interest and all the stuff that's kind of accompanies the election cycle in the States. And there's one probably coming up pretty quickly with Canada too. So the fervor is increasing in in Canada as well. Right.

00;35;51;15 - 00;36;18;20
Speaker 2
If you know, it's like it's like on some level God's like, well, I would really like it if candidate A gets in whatever, right? Trump, whoever, I would really like it. But you know, all these prophetic voices I they're so doing this for the wrong motive. You know, building a ministry, building a platform, you know, building a voice influencing generation versus just becoming like him.

00;36;18;20 - 00;36;37;26
Speaker 2
Right? That I just think I will have I I'll have to resist the prophetic know I might want like it like this. I might want you might want Trump or whoever in office. But he goes, I'm just not going to put him there because I can't qualify those prophetic voices by following through with that.

00;36;37;28 - 00;36;39;19
Speaker 1
Oh, boy, you know.

00;36;39;21 - 00;36;45;24
Speaker 2
That's right. That's the one I'm getting you in trouble with is. Yeah. Well, sometimes I wonder, sometimes I'm wondering if he's just saying fine.

00;36;45;24 - 00;36;49;07
Speaker 1
Sometimes it's just my little head out of my little bubble and make a political comment.

00;36;49;10 - 00;36;50;17
Speaker 2
He's just sitting there going.

00;36;50;17 - 00;36;51;16
Speaker 1
As a Canadian.

00;36;51;18 - 00;37;00;19
Speaker 2
He's just a god's just sitting there going, yeah, I want to do it. But that means that I have to qualify. And all this crap, all this crap. Exactly.

00;37;00;22 - 00;37;15;19
Speaker 1
Well, you know, and here's the problem that I have with with all of this. And I heard one politician say, when my father told me here, heard one politician say about Trump, I disagree with everything he had says. And I agree with almost everything he does.

00;37;15;24 - 00;37;16;28
Speaker 2
Sure. Yeah.

00;37;17;01 - 00;37;43;05
Speaker 1
Okay. So there you go. I think I'm kind of there too. I think so, but here's here's the problem that that everyone doesn't get. You don't get to be. And I'll drop my language. I'm a little bit a jerk and a mean person and and do that stuff and reveal a very angry inner world. And then suddenly God say, oh, you're a great president.

00;37;43;07 - 00;37;43;29
Speaker 2
Right? Right.

00;37;43;29 - 00;38;03;10
Speaker 1
And and because you're, you're, you're making it all about externals again. Okay, you'll do this, you'll do this, you'll do this. It's all going to change. And the Lord is looking at his heart. Remember what did David say about King Saul? Don't look at the external. The Lord looks on a person's heart. And you know what? If he could just keep his freaking mouth shut, the guy gets shot.

00;38;03;14 - 00;38;10;13
Speaker 1
He looks like a hero. All you have to do is be a father and just. Just love people and what does he do?

00;38;10;15 - 00;38;12;01
Speaker 2
You know? You know.

00;38;12;05 - 00;38;36;01
Speaker 1
He just starts trashing people again. You know what I believe 100%. The Lord would exalt him if he could just love and change his heart. Yeah, but if he does not, I think I don't think he's going to win. If he doesn't, I just don't. And it's kind of like, because the inner world matters, everybody you don't, you reap what you sow.

00;38;36;06 - 00;38;54;10
Speaker 1
And I think God would love to give this to him. But if he does not change the anger and disposition of his inner man, the Lord will not stand with him. That's what I think. I mean, we'll have to go back and delete that out of this, because, you know, we're never. But then I think the Lord will resist him anyway.

00;38;54;10 - 00;39;02;03
Speaker 1
It doesn't matter if he wins or loses. What matters is this is going to change, and the Lord will step it.

00;39;02;07 - 00;39;04;16
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, that's.

00;39;04;23 - 00;39;05;10
Speaker 1
Dollars to.

00;39;05;10 - 00;39;07;11
Speaker 2
Donuts.

00;39;07;13 - 00;39;08;25
Speaker 1
Anyway, I could just get kind of the.

00;39;08;27 - 00;39;11;00
Speaker 2
Yeah, I'm we're not, we're not. You're right. We're not trying.

00;39;11;03 - 00;39;22;06
Speaker 1
But politically there's a problem. And the problem isn't just Trump here. The problem is the church does not care about his inner world. Yes. Doesn't care at all. It's all about what he can do for them.

00;39;22;07 - 00;39;24;16
Speaker 2
And that's that's the picture in the dream. Yeah, that's.

00;39;24;16 - 00;39;42;10
Speaker 1
That's the picture in the dream. And and we're all doing it and every day. Right. And we're like, well, we can cast all this stuff off because inner world doesn't really matter. Well, no, that was Jesus's whole point in the gospels. That is why he was offending people to reveal the heart. That's why he says to the rich young ruler, sell everything.

00;39;42;10 - 00;40;02;03
Speaker 1
Follow me. He picks the one issue and pokes it up right? And he's doing it all the time because he cares about what's in the heart of man. To the Pharisees, to to Peter, right? All the time. And because it's a big deal, the transformation of the inner man. And if he has to offend people, he's going to do it.

00;40;02;05 - 00;40;08;01
Speaker 1
That's right. Why? Because people are sick and they need to get healed. And if they can't see their sickness, they'll never get past it.

00;40;08;01 - 00;40;09;03
Speaker 2
That's right.

00;40;09;06 - 00;40;26;11
Speaker 1
And if you can't understand which belief systems are binding, you let alone hate them, let alone change them. So if you just look at belief systems of the world, they'll jump right in. It's okay to have a president who does all these horrible things, because I'm going to get what I want and what our country needs.

00;40;26;13 - 00;40;27;05
Speaker 2
Right?

00;40;27;08 - 00;40;34;02
Speaker 1
And then we can just toss all that out. I mean, that's that that's the belief system over the whole nation. No.

00;40;34;05 - 00;40;54;00
Speaker 2
Yeah. And large and a large portion of the church, too. And it is it is in the dream, you know, it's like we want we want a version of Jesus that will come. And while the crowds and that will, that will help establish our fame and, that'll show up on the talk shows and make sure that, you know.

00;40;54;00 - 00;41;14;18
Speaker 2
Well, okay, he's here. So we're credible, right? This is this is the version of Jesus we want this is the version of a political leader we want. And it's just by the time the dream is moving into the second portion of the dream, everyone is so frustrated with who Jesus is, they don't want him anything to do with them anymore.

00;41;14;20 - 00;41;22;29
Speaker 2
I know, right? Which is not a political thing. Okay, go for I am. But the political hour with I'm sorry.

00;41;23;07 - 00;41;44;15
Speaker 1
I've resisted this for two years. Two years. I've said now. Oh. Okay, okay, everybody, check it out. You want to check it out? When they lost the last election, there's Rudy. They they post, they're going to have a meeting to. I think they declare that they want the Republicans. Right. Okay. And so they book the Four Seasons.

00;41;44;18 - 00;41;45;04
Speaker 2
All right.

00;41;45;04 - 00;42;07;11
Speaker 1
And and, and there's Rudy Giuliani, and they didn't book the hotel. They book Four Seasons Landscaping by accident. Right. And they're on one side of Rudy Giuliani is a sex shop, and the other side, a, funeral home. And he's standing right in the middle. And right then as he's talking about how they won, the reporters says, oh, by the way, the results came out, you lost.

00;42;07;14 - 00;42;13;24
Speaker 1
Right? So just think about that picture. Yeah. What are you seeing there and what happened? What's happened to Rudy Giuliani in the last couple of years?

00;42;13;24 - 00;42;14;15
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;42;14;17 - 00;42;31;23
Speaker 1
Where is he? So, you know, God loves that guy, but what's happened to it? Where is he? Yeah, when God wants to go. We're dealing with your stuff now. He's more than capable. And Trump has been given a very, very long leash.

00;42;31;26 - 00;42;32;07
Speaker 2
Right.

00;42;32;14 - 00;42;36;05
Speaker 1
But God disciplines those. He loves.

00;42;36;08 - 00;42;37;20
Speaker 2
This. And just for.

00;42;37;23 - 00;42;38;16
Speaker 1
All I will say.

00;42;38;23 - 00;42;40;06
Speaker 2
For the record, by the way, just you.

00;42;40;06 - 00;42;44;10
Speaker 1
Can think I'm crazy for saying that, but that's fine. Yeah, but you don't get away with stuff.

00;42;44;12 - 00;42;51;25
Speaker 2
That's true, that's true. The the thing it like, just as a as a disclaimer.

00;42;51;25 - 00;42;53;05
Speaker 1
We can delete that, right? No, no.

00;42;53;05 - 00;43;12;08
Speaker 2
Well we're not we don't need to. It's that as a disclaimer, I have show notes about what we were going to talk about. And Trump was not in the picture. And politics. Yeah yeah yeah. Right. Sorry. That's no no no no that's fine. It's perfectly fine. It's it's just it's funny how things I brought it up so. Yeah.

00;43;12;11 - 00;43;12;20
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;43;12;21 - 00;43;14;24
Speaker 1
Well just Google search it.

00;43;14;26 - 00;43;36;24
Speaker 2
Yeah. Well it's true. Yeah it is true. It's it's in a way the dream so highlights the arrogance of the modern church and the contemporary and the contemporary leader. It's that it's like it's it's like, well, well, since we've left everything behind, you somehow owe us something.

00;43;36;24 - 00;43;46;27
Speaker 1
Now, like in the dream. That was that way. But I remember the disciples, you know, we've left everything for you. You will sit on 12 thrones, judging 12. You know what's in it for us?

00;43;46;29 - 00;44;09;27
Speaker 2
What's in it for us? And that and and the whole thing, the the entire thrust of it is never. And this is the problem with humanity, right? We even do it with the Bible. Right? Would we look at the Bible as the revelation of sin and, the redemption of mankind when the when the Bible is are evident revelation of the nature of God, we've put mankind in the center, not God in the center.

00;44;09;28 - 00;44;38;03
Speaker 2
Right? We keep doing it over and over and over and over again. We become the middle of the story, and he's the middle of the story. So we get into, you know, like whatever, whether it's, you know, whether it's church, just attending a local community, like you go people attend the community, and they evaluate the community based on the programs that it has, the kind of speaker that it has, like what's in it for me and going, you know, what kind of music it has?

00;44;38;10 - 00;45;01;02
Speaker 2
Is it liturgical? Is it not as it cares? Charismatic, is it not? Right. We go in a way that says, I'm evaluating how this fits my needs. So that's the just the average church attender and then the church leader, you know, goes, like, what's in it for me? Like, what am I getting out of it? Right.

00;45;01;02 - 00;45;18;10
Speaker 2
It's a, it's a what's my salary? Can I keep doing it. How much money do we have. What's the budget like. Like all these things are subtle. How they work themselves into the mind of whether it's your lay person attending a church or your leader pastoring and leading a church. All of it works itself in. It's the enemy.

00;45;18;10 - 00;45;32;23
Speaker 2
The enemy just keeps coming back and says, it's about you, it's about you, it's about you, it's about you. It's not about Jesus. Right? He got the whole thing started. We don't need him anymore. We just need him to show up and do some miracles. And if he just did that, then all of our stuff would built, right?

00;45;32;23 - 00;45;51;03
Speaker 2
That's. It's about me. It's not about him. And so we go into this whole journey drawn by him, but eventually we go, it's like Paul or Paul going to the Galatians, you foolish Galatians. Are you going to start in the spirit into the flesh? I will start in the spirit and we go, but it really is about me, right?

00;45;51;03 - 00;46;09;02
Speaker 2
You know, I need this, I need this, I need this, and I need this. And look, it's the when it was the last time you thought about attending a church or as a leader of church, what is God or what's the father? What's Jesus? What's he getting out of my life? When was the last time you thought that.

00;46;09;03 - 00;46;20;14
Speaker 2
What's he getting out of my life. What pleasure is he taking out of my life. And then. And would that change if I thought about him and the end of him. Right. The end goal of.

00;46;20;17 - 00;46;33;25
Speaker 1
And I always say we should throw in there a good question. I think we should ask ourselves in every situation. And it's hard to do. Lord, how how does every situation I'm in, good or bad, right? How does this make me more like you?

00;46;33;29 - 00;46;35;02
Speaker 2
That's right.

00;46;35;05 - 00;46;52;18
Speaker 1
And we should ask the question instead of, oh, I just need the breaker anointing. I just somebody need to give me a destiny word. I need someone if somebody just laid hands on me. And, you know, I think we should not stop asking for prayer. Jesus asked the cross be taken for him. And Paul said, Lord, take this thorn in the flesh away.

00;46;52;21 - 00;47;04;13
Speaker 1
And you know, you know, it was better that in each case it wasn't right. And, when I'm weak or I'm strong. That's right. I was talking about the same thing of the dream here. Right?

00;47;04;16 - 00;47;08;28
Speaker 2
And, Yeah. Go ahead, Mary, you got more.

00;47;09;01 - 00;47;28;16
Speaker 1
Well, you know, we just again, in context, the idea is, I mean, you just look at the temptations of Jesus by the enemy when you talked about the enemy, there are many to go. But what is he offering? All the power of all the world, right. They bow down and worship me. I'll give you. I'll give you everything, right.

00;47;28;16 - 00;47;44;13
Speaker 1
Power. I want to power. Yeah. Jump off the temple because you can't be killed. And the idea is everyone's going to see a miraculous. You know, everyone's going to just see how chosen. Yes, because he's going to jump off in the middle of these people. They catch him and like, whoa, this is the guy. Lord, prove my gift.

00;47;44;20 - 00;47;48;06
Speaker 1
Prove my anointing. Right. That's a temptation. It's from the devil right there.

00;47;48;06 - 00;47;48;25
Speaker 2
Right.

00;47;48;27 - 00;48;12;25
Speaker 1
And and you know, even the last one, I think we get it wrong. If you are the Son of God, eat this bread. You know, it's not about. He's hungry. It's about when Jesus multiplies food, everyone goes, surely this is the prophet coming into the world. And they try to make him king by force, right? So the idea is the Messiah is supposed to do the works of Moses, and one of those things is multiplying food.

00;48;12;26 - 00;48;29;26
Speaker 1
Right? Right. And so, you know, prove your gifting. Let everybody see that you got you got a gift. What kind of anointing you have. Let me let everybody see what your gift is. Right? Right. That's right. And I think we're tempted by the same temptations all of the time, based on our fears and insecurities and pride. I at least I am.

00;48;29;26 - 00;48;36;17
Speaker 1
Yeah, I'm certainly not immune to this. I mean, I, I can think of like four things going on in my life right now that I'm nervous about.

00;48;36;20 - 00;48;38;14
Speaker 2
Right? You know.

00;48;38;17 - 00;48;47;26
Speaker 1
So I, I think it's just like you said, it's a mankind issue. It's a brokenness issue. But then the enemy is just, you know, he knows where our weak spots are, right?

00;48;47;28 - 00;49;20;07
Speaker 2
Right. Well, and the thing is, as a brokenness issue in most a lot of the time, I'll just say a lot of the time speaking for myself and people around me that that where I'm walking with, we have even a hard time acknowledging that it's an issue and and going like, like I said to Marie earlier before we started recording, one of the things I've been thinking about has been the words of John the Baptist, where he says, I must decrease so that he might increase.

00;49;20;09 - 00;49;36;06
Speaker 2
Right. This is in John three, I think. Yeah. John three and and, you know, today the, the modern day cry is I must increase so that he can increase. Yes.

00;49;36;08 - 00;49;37;13
Speaker 1
And it's a good way to say it.

00;49;37;14 - 00;49;58;20
Speaker 2
It's so backwards. Right. John was like, oh he's on the scene now. And so I have to disappear. And so who's saying who's saying, you know, thinking of the spiritual sense of the words. Right. We're we're we're interpreting them on a deeper level, not just the practically Jesus is on the scene. And so John's going, well, he's the real deal.

00;49;58;23 - 00;50;19;15
Speaker 2
It's like, who's talking that way today? That goes, well, how do I decrease so that Jesus increases in our midst? How do I do less? How do I diminish what I'm doing so that what I'm doing bears more fruit for him? Right. Yeah. As opposed to, you know, when when the whole thing is I have to increase you spread yourself so thin rather than I can.

00;50;19;15 - 00;50;51;09
Speaker 2
I can disciple 12 people, probably realistically three. Right? I can pour myself into three people that they might bear the fruit of God in their lives. And I can do that really well. Right. And this is what we're looking back in the Desert fathers, right. We're all called voices from the desert. You had small communities developed around, affectionate relationships of a spiritual father pouring into a couple of spiritual sons, and great fruit was born because of that.

00;50;51;09 - 00;51;10;23
Speaker 2
Not. I like even thinking Anthony the Great and his retreat into the desert. Right. He doesn't go, okay, now, I've been in the desert for 20 years. I found the Holy Spirit. I'm going back into the world and building my ministry. Right? He comes kicking. He's like dragged kicking and screaming out of the desert. He doesn't want to go.

00;51;10;25 - 00;51;33;22
Speaker 2
He only goes because people keep coming to him. And eventually a whole community of monks settles in the lower desert just below the fort where he's at. And he's he's basically so inundated with requests, he finally resolves and says, all right, I'll come out only because they need me. He's not interested, right? He's not interested in building a thing.

00;51;33;25 - 00;51;53;03
Speaker 2
And we're so interested in building a thing. Yeah, and the first step of the dream of coming to grips with what Jesus was actually doing and realizing how to walk with him in the midst in the dream with Mary, was recognizing, I've got some dragon skills I need to deal with. All right. That's the very first thing. And even then, we're still only dealing on an outer level, right?

00;51;53;03 - 00;51;55;18
Speaker 2
We're not even dealing with the treasure hidden within. We're just going.

00;51;55;21 - 00;51;56;07
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;51;56;09 - 00;52;00;03
Speaker 2
Oh, I've got some stuff, man. I've got some for father.

00;52;00;03 - 00;52;04;18
Speaker 1
Saint Seraphim said, work on yourself and thousands will be saved.

00;52;04;19 - 00;52;05;15
Speaker 2
Yeah. That's right.

00;52;05;17 - 00;52;07;21
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's right. I get that in the right order.

00;52;07;24 - 00;52;23;14
Speaker 2
I've got a, quote that I, read to Murray earlier. It says this is from Francis Frangipane, who said this to a to inoculate me from the praise of man. He baptizes me in the criticism of man until I died to the control of man.

00;52;23;17 - 00;52;25;22
Speaker 1
Wow. Should read that one more time, I think.

00;52;25;22 - 00;52;41;17
Speaker 2
To inoculate me from the praise of man. He baptizes me in the criticism of man until I died to the control of man. Wow. Who and those, you know, those kind of conversations are few and far between today. It's strategic vision. Well, it's.

00;52;41;17 - 00;52;42;20
Speaker 1
It's it's well there's a.

00;52;42;27 - 00;53;06;26
Speaker 2
There's let me say this, there's a disconnect between the conversation because I'm not saying people won't have the conversation about inner formation. Yeah. There's a disc in act between the conversation and the reality of it and the actual implementation and the practice. Yes. Because the practice, though, you can have a conversation that says formation according to the image of Christ people.

00;53;06;28 - 00;53;34;04
Speaker 2
No one's going to disagree with you on that one. Still, the culture says, build the vision, go for the big thing. Make sure you impact huge numbers. Do social media to influence people. No one's saying decrease your presence so that you can be a more effective for the one, right? So that's what I mean is that there's a disconnect between the the understanding of the inner way and the lip service of it and the practice of the culture in contemporary Christianity.

00;53;34;06 - 00;53;52;18
Speaker 2
There's a disconnect between the two, and we haven't found a way to bridge those two things, because we're still talking but not acting. And so. Because because I can say as a theory, yeah, we should let's decrease so that he can increase. I can say that as a theory, but practically then what am I going to go do?

00;53;52;18 - 00;54;04;14
Speaker 2
How am I going to implement that? Right. Because now it sounds good, but it's painful to practice because the flesh dies and it's never it's never pretty when the flesh dies.

00;54;04;16 - 00;54;24;28
Speaker 1
Yeah. So, you know, it's it's again, you know, I have a very good friend of mine who, who, has an inner healing ministry, and, you know, they are involved in this church. Good visionary leader guy and and any time, you know, there's a couple freaking out fighting or somebody needed deliverance ministry, he would call them, hey, can you do this for me?

00;54;25;00 - 00;54;40;26
Speaker 1
But he would never announce their ministry from the front or let anybody know it's there, right? Because it it took away from the direction of the church and we don't really want to see everybody that's broken. We need them to serve. We need them to get out there and serve. We don't want them all go get in their healing and quit serving.

00;54;40;29 - 00;55;08;02
Speaker 1
We need them to go do the work of the ministry. So and they were eventually they just really burned out, right? And I mean, in the vineyard movement in the Fraser Valley, as far as I know, when they, they, they, this is back in the 90s, they, you know, the big church laying the vineyard at the time at 1500 people, if I remember this correctly, they they split it into five churches, you know, in different cities.

00;55;08;04 - 00;55;20;18
Speaker 1
And then they hired a visionary leader for each church and hired one guy to do all the marriage, all the hospital visitation, all the counseling for all five churches, because that wasn't worth funding.

00;55;20;22 - 00;55;21;21
Speaker 2
Right. And that.

00;55;21;21 - 00;55;23;04
Speaker 1
Guy and they burned him out and killed him in a.

00;55;23;04 - 00;55;26;25
Speaker 2
Year in less than a year, probably burned out after a month.

00;55;26;27 - 00;55;33;22
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. And he never really recovered from that, be honest, because that's not where the money needs to go. And he's in the building.

00;55;33;27 - 00;55;35;01
Speaker 2
Right. Like.

00;55;35;03 - 00;55;35;22
Speaker 1
Well.

00;55;35;24 - 00;55;38;05
Speaker 2
How about how about spiritual care.

00;55;38;07 - 00;55;55;15
Speaker 1
That's how about spiritual care. Yeah. Right. Transformation. How about so where is that in the churches. Like who is running that. How is it promoted. How is you know, if I think if a church has that, that's a good place to be. But if it's nowhere to be seen, that's a bit of an alarm bell, really should be a bit of an alarm bell.

00;55;55;15 - 00;56;11;09
Speaker 1
Like, wait a minute. And and you know, I always like John Wimber statement to I mean, you know, he didn't necessarily mean well either, but God bless him. Right? I mean, I think we're all broken. We gotta understand. We're all just, But he said never. And maybe it was John Arnett, but I, you know, I know John are in it for sure.

00;56;11;09 - 00;56;14;12
Speaker 1
Said it, but I think Wimber to never trust a leader without a lip.

00;56;14;16 - 00;56;15;14
Speaker 2
Yeah. That's right.

00;56;15;19 - 00;56;38;13
Speaker 1
Yeah. And you know, it's funny, like, if you're just in a church and all your leaders telling glory stories all the time, and they're not telling you their brokenness or what they're going through, that's a good point. Everybody's got the power in a jar of clay. Yeah. And if you're hiding the jar of clay, the problem is as leadership, if you model that no one in whole groups, no one in your church is ever going to talk about their brokenness because because it's shameful.

00;56;38;13 - 00;56;59;01
Speaker 1
It's it needs to be hidden, right? That no one talks about it in this church, you know? Glory hallelujah. How are you growing? How are you doing? Who's getting ill? I was you're fine. You know, you can't talk about it. And. Yeah, and you know what? That's not a safe place to be as far as I'm concerned. Know you need to be in a place where people are embracing their inner world and, you know, and letting God do all the other stuff, too.

00;56;59;01 - 00;57;09;06
Speaker 1
It's not that either or, but they need to be like two feet. You need both of these. You need the power inside the jar of clay. Yeah. And sometimes God's working on the power. Sometimes he's working on the jar.

00;57;09;10 - 00;57;10;25
Speaker 2
That's right. Right. That's right.

00;57;10;27 - 00;57;26;23
Speaker 1
And it's important to, to realize that God cleanses are like, you know, we're back to a mona's, you know, statement, right? Don't go back 20 years in the desert and said, hey, you're ready to go serve, right? Get everything right up inside.

00;57;26;27 - 00;57;27;12
Speaker 2
That's right.

00;57;27;13 - 00;57;35;03
Speaker 1
And, and so these passions, you know, they, they take time to, to wither, they have to wither.

00;57;35;06 - 00;57;57;17
Speaker 2
Yeah. There's a there's a, the, you know, the I find the desert father so instructive in some of these things. And it would be beneficial for pretty much any leader to pick up a copy of, The Sayings of the Desert Fathers. Whatever, whatever copy. You can have your hand lay your hands on. Yeah, because there's just so many helpful insights.

00;57;57;19 - 00;58;02;04
Speaker 2
So here's one in particular. I just read this this morning. This is from ABBA Isidor. ABBA, meaning.

00;58;02;05 - 00;58;03;04
Speaker 1
Father. Oh, yes.

00;58;03;05 - 00;58;35;21
Speaker 2
Isidor. ABBA Isidor, said when his when his little gizmo die. Meaning those thoughts that you can't shake. Right. This charged in true. You know, the contemporary culture would call them intrusive or impulsive thoughts. Yeah. They're thoughts that you can't get away with. Get can't get away from when when his little, little gizmo used to say to him, you are a great man, he would say, back to the little gizmo, am I like ABBA Anthony then?

00;58;35;21 - 00;58;56;19
Speaker 2
Or have I become like Albert, Pombo, or the rest of the fathers who have been pleasing to God. So his so contextually, you know, he's got this thought, hey, I'm pretty good now. Then he goes, well, am I does that am I, am I better than Anthony? Am I better than Pombo? I'm a better the rest of the fathers.

00;58;56;21 - 00;59;16;28
Speaker 2
The implication being no, of course I'm not. So then he would say this. When he produced these examples, he experienced repose. But when the enemy used to discourage him, saying he would be cast into chastisement after all this, he would say, Even if I'm cast into chastisement, I will. I will find you beneath me. Yeah. So he's got he's got the he's got the opposing thoughts.

00;59;16;28 - 00;59;34;03
Speaker 2
Right. You're pretty great. And so how would he deal with that? He would say, actually, no, I'm not greater than those guys. And so then the enemy would say, oh, well, you must be pretty miserable. Then. You must be horrible if you're not as good as those guys. Right. And so what would you say then? Well, I'm not as bad as you.

00;59;34;05 - 00;59;57;09
Speaker 2
Yeah, right. That's right. And so, so all that. I just share that to share that there was a strategy that they had developed for dealing with visionary leaders that said, I'm going to build something great. And examples of Isidore were instructive. Whenever you have that thought that says, I'm going to go make something great of myself, remember, you're not that great.

00;59;57;11 - 01;00;20;22
Speaker 2
That's essentially what the what the principle of the story is, right? Yeah. Tell yourself you're not that great. But also remember, you're not that bad either, right? It's it is, I think it's one of the, famous, Amos, the Desert Mothers. She said, we have to be aware enough that when someone is immature, we encourage them that God loves them.

01;00;20;24 - 01;00;27;03
Speaker 2
And when someone's mature, we remind them that they're not perfect. Yeah, well, there you go. There's a there's. Yeah.

01;00;27;03 - 01;00;31;10
Speaker 1
How you broach it with different people in different. It's different. That's very wise.

01;00;31;11 - 01;01;00;11
Speaker 2
It's totally different. But just going back to this, this conversation about the inner way passions, the drive towards pride that lends itself towards arrogance to build something great and pretend you're doing it for God. Oftentimes you're doing it to earn God's approval without and and not being honest. In admitting that you want God's approval. So there's a lot of people out there building a structure, saying God.

01;01;00;11 - 01;01;23;01
Speaker 2
There's basically saying that our own fathers, do you approve of me? Yet verses The father has welcomed me into this, and we're partnering together, and I'm happy if it's one person or I'm happy if it's 100 people. And maybe it'd be good, or a thousand people. Maybe it'd be good. Murray, if you shared that, that story of you working on the chicken farm.

01;01;23;03 - 01;01;43;27
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I was just. You know, it's funny. There's a quote I don't like the first of, but it's. I think it's Saint Cillian, a fairly recent guy. I think it's still the one says. And maybe he's calling to Froni. Keep your mind in hell and destroy or not. Yeah, that kind of scary. But I like the phonies version.

01;01;44;02 - 01;01;49;22
Speaker 1
Walk over to the abyss, meeting your heart and look down, and then take three steps back and have tea.

01;01;49;24 - 01;01;50;03
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01;01;50;04 - 01;02;10;05
Speaker 1
That's right, you know. So the idea is, with both of those is. Yeah, look, there's brokenness in there. Take a good hard look at it and then realize God loves you. That's right for you. He's going to fix that. Yeah. You know it's his job. Don't despair. Realize it's there. Stay in the love of the father. So. So I come out of, a pretty big move of God in Bible college.

01;02;10;05 - 01;02;29;25
Speaker 1
It was pretty interesting. I think we prophesied and prayed over a third of the student body pretty good in a minute. I Bible college, right. So I was only 250 people, but still, you know, and they could pretty, you know, hey, look at me. You know, and then, the Lord says to me, I want you to walk away from your degree, and I want you to just go get a job.

01;02;29;27 - 01;02;42;09
Speaker 1
And then sovereignly, sovereignly, he puts us in a home church, which is no full time ministry ever. So now my degree is absolutely worthless, right? And and I get this job on this turkey farm.

01;02;42;10 - 01;02;48;01
Speaker 2
Well, you can make some notes on the back of it, right? I guess it's not totally worthless, but if I.

01;02;48;08 - 01;02;49;23
Speaker 1
Could my grocery list doodle.

01;02;49;23 - 01;02;52;03
Speaker 2
On it or something. Yeah, yeah.

01;02;52;05 - 01;03;10;03
Speaker 1
So I'm like, I'm so mad at God. I'm like, I, you know, I'm married. I got a kid maybe even by now. And I, you know, I could've went to university. I could have, could have got a job, or I can support my family, you know, and, and and you would just say to me, am I? And if you never minister again, am I am I enough for you?

01;03;10;05 - 01;03;26;24
Speaker 1
So remember I just said in a praying for a third of the student body, the power of God's move and things are happening. You know, churches are inviting us in to talk about what's happening. You know, word's getting out. And now here I am with nothing. And the thing is that this junk in my heart fear I'm never going to minister again.

01;03;26;27 - 01;03;37;11
Speaker 1
Anger about my degree, not having a place, not having a voice. All of it's coming up. And it was in there when I was doing well. I just didn't know it was right.

01;03;37;14 - 01;03;38;21
Speaker 2
Right, right, right.

01;03;38;24 - 01;03;39;19
Speaker 1
And, the.

01;03;39;19 - 01;03;48;11
Speaker 2
Passions themselves, very easily. They are deeply. They cover themselves and they make excuses for being there.

01;03;48;13 - 01;04;04;07
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. And so it took about honestly it took. And I remember my friend who was in charge of missions at the Bible school, I remember he was going for a walk and he just felt he should sit down. And he sits down. Lord says to him, Len, your love for missions is greater than your love for me.

01;04;04;09 - 01;04;08;15
Speaker 1
And and he was shocked. You could love the things of God more than God himself.

01;04;08;22 - 01;04;09;00
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01;04;09;00 - 01;04;23;17
Speaker 1
And it's you know, we need to check that. Are we talking about meetings? Are we talking about stuff? Are we talking about it with Jesus is doing in our lives? Right. You know that that kind of so and so this went on for about a year and a half. I mean, I'm on this farm. I'm like, I can be out of ministry for six months.

01;04;23;20 - 01;04;32;06
Speaker 1
I can be out of ministry for a year. You know, it's finally after about a year and a half, I remember saying, you know, Jesus, if I just have you, that's good enough for my life.

01;04;32;06 - 01;04;33;01
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01;04;33;03 - 01;04;51;28
Speaker 1
And then, I remember our, home church leaders said, hey, this pastoral couple is going to come for a visit. I'm like, pastors, why do we want them visiting? We're a hot church. You know, like, I was, like, offended. It was pretty funny. So they come by, gifts kick back in. I had prayed anybody might lay hands on them.

01;04;51;28 - 01;05;14;21
Speaker 1
I get a prophetic word. They hit the floor crying. Long story short, I end up getting hired on staff power. God shows up. I think a hundred hundred kids get saved in six months. I mean, season change, right? Season of desert into season of favor and you can't come out of your desert to suit you. It has to be this love thing.

01;05;14;21 - 01;05;25;12
Speaker 1
And when God puts you back in there, you have to realize, you know, Josie, I will lure her into the desert, and there I will give her back her vineyards and and the valley of weeping will become, you know.

01;05;25;19 - 01;05;27;29
Speaker 2
The door of a door of hope. Yep. Yeah.

01;05;28;04 - 01;05;49;18
Speaker 1
And I will betrothed her to me forever. And so, you know, there are the seasons. But we have to realize that favor isn't the only season here, right? Yeah. There's character development of what's in the heart. And. Yeah, you know, I've been through that probably, well, at least three times in the significant ministry being destroyed, everything being taken apart.

01;05;49;24 - 01;06;09;13
Speaker 1
And then God doing something new, probably at least that cycle of favor to character. Yeah. So it's, it's just. But we have to, as a church, know how to walk people through that and embrace it and look at inner change and you know, what is gone on. And anyway, yeah, it's important.

01;06;09;15 - 01;06;49;20
Speaker 2
Really well, and one of the things I think, again, the dream is instructive in requires all that we're saying, I just so I'm just so there with you, Mary. Is that, humility is the only way forward. Yeah. It really it it's it really is. And in the, in the the era that we're in right now where the contemporary culture around us is full of, you know, growth strategies, marketing strategies, vision strategies, all these things for every single company, every single brand.

01;06;49;22 - 01;07;14;21
Speaker 2
That's what we're inundated with. Humility is the way forward for the Christian and for the church and for the leader and for the lay leader. Humility is the way forward. And it's like if you have to convince everyone that your meetings are going to be the next best meetings, that anybody's been to, that you know, you don't want to miss this.

01;07;14;21 - 01;07;35;06
Speaker 2
It's going to be transformative. It's going to be life changing. Right? Let's just it's just people just throw that stuff out like it's, you know, like, yeah. Like just how you view water, you know, like it's just what you do or or after the fact. You know, those meetings shifted the landscape of the nation. Right. So when it's just changed, right.

01;07;35;06 - 01;07;55;28
Speaker 2
If you have to convince everybody that's the case, let's just let's just, you know, make it a little more fitting to pastoral leadership. If you have to convince people, or convince yourself that your church is somehow the best church in the city or in the region or in the neighborhood, which happens often. You know, we do this and no other church does this.

01;07;56;01 - 01;08;13;16
Speaker 2
It's like there's a whole there's another way the pride creeps its way in. You know, I've been to a lot of churches and none of our none of the churches do it like our church does. It? No. This is the thing. What? You've just taken the love God has given you for his bride and turned it into pride.

01;08;13;19 - 01;08;14;04
Speaker 2
And so.

01;08;14;04 - 01;08;30;19
Speaker 1
It's like. And you know, the way to do that. Check it everybody. I'm just going to throw this out there to check whether that's you, because we always go, that's somebody else. Think about another church in town that's not your denomination. Go, vacuum their sanctuary, go mow their lawn as a church. Go serve them somehow. Yeah.

01;08;30;25 - 01;08;52;24
Speaker 1
Even though you're not in agreement. Totally with their theology. You know, I'm just thinking, you know, I'm not thinking, J.W. witnesses or thinking. I'm thinking, like Baptist to charismatic, to vineyard to Catholic. Right? Orthodox. Go, go love them. See what comes up in your heart as you do it. Just even asking the question, what comes up in your heart because it's already there needs to be seen and the deal with it.

01;08;52;26 - 01;09;06;26
Speaker 1
You know, you got to walk against the passions it needs healing and how do you heal it? You give it something to do. And this is a way of the fathers, right? And in this case, go love those people. Go treat them as better than yourself. Go serve them.

01;09;06;28 - 01;09;08;05
Speaker 2
And.

01;09;08;08 - 01;09;13;00
Speaker 1
And you know, just watch what comes up in your heart and then watch how you feel after you do it.

01;09;13;03 - 01;09;14;06
Speaker 2
That's right. Right.

01;09;14;08 - 01;09;18;03
Speaker 1
That's the personal change of the inner man. There.

01;09;18;05 - 01;09;40;09
Speaker 2
Well, and and you know, church we've I mean, we've been I actually I was going to we've been talking about this since we started the podcast. Yeah. It really is it really is our, our theme. And a good friend of mine was saying, you guys, how you guys, you know, the audience may be small, but we definitely have a niche that, people love talking about.

01;09;40;12 - 01;09;42;25
Speaker 2
And, and I think there's, there's rooted.

01;09;42;25 - 01;09;43;03
Speaker 1
Right.

01;09;43;08 - 01;10;17;03
Speaker 2
Well, there's people tracking with us and, and that we're tracking with going like the way forward. Isn't self-promotion the way forward is in bigger and better meetings. The way forward isn't the best church in the city. The way forward is humble, humble love, tender service, doing the doing the works of Jesus in innocuous and and inconspicuous ways. Like Lord said to me a number of years ago, in Josh and Seasons of Preparation, which I think the church is in now, the church is always in a season of preparation.

01;10;17;03 - 01;10;37;17
Speaker 2
Like Jesus, the Jesus's, the bride has always been prepared. So we're always in a season of preparation when you're being prepared, serve well in obscurity. And I said to the Lord, well, what does what does it mean to be obscure, then? And he said, to be obscure means to not be seen by people. But you're always seen by me.

01;10;37;20 - 01;11;02;12
Speaker 2
And wow, I love that. That's wonderful. It's it's like what? Well, what's motivate, what's motivating the why of what I do. I if and absent humility, I always have motivation. If I don't have humility, I have motivation. And even with humility I'm going to wrestle with motivation. But at least I can recognize that the motivation is there. The motive lodges itself in the heart.

01;11;02;12 - 01;11;25;14
Speaker 2
It practices itself as a passion, gets angry when someone talks about your church in a pejorative way, gets angry, or gets anxious when not enough people show up to the meeting. Because what's that going to look like right now? You see? So you see the outworking of all these things, the anxiety that comes in and and then, you know, leading up to the meeting, well, we don't have enough people registered.

01;11;25;14 - 01;11;49;22
Speaker 2
So can we keep fit the budget? We got to pay people. The anxiousness comes up. So now the practice is I've got to convince people how great we are. Yeah. And so the motive, the motive embeds itself in the heart. The passion works itself through. And then it comes out and then you never know that where that anxiety and where that anger and where that pride finds its outlet.

01;11;49;23 - 01;12;17;24
Speaker 2
Oftentimes it's pointed towards the people you care about the most, not the people you don't care. And so it's like, oh man, if humility is not the way forward, we're going to be going around the same track over and over and over again as for me, I'm happy being obscure, walking with Murray, having these conversations and a few people can listen to them and it's like, father, let's just keep following you.

01;12;17;27 - 01;12;29;02
Speaker 2
We're not going to put together a social media strategy and pay for promoted posts and try and get this thing as big as we possibly can. It's like, you know, God, God can do what he wants with it, right?

01;12;29;07 - 01;12;36;22
Speaker 1
You know, I struggle with that a little bit, just not nothing major because I but the whole like, should we be asking people to click like, you know.

01;12;37;00 - 01;12;46;16
Speaker 2
Yeah. That's how that's how sensitive we are to it right now. It's like it's like I don't even know if I can ask you to click like, or leave a review. I don't know if I should. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Like.

01;12;46;18 - 01;12;50;07
Speaker 1
Should we like and you know, you can go too far the right way.

01;12;50;10 - 01;12;51;26
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. That's right. You can't. That's true.

01;12;51;26 - 01;12;57;09
Speaker 1
So I struggle with that. Like oh should we tell. Because we want to get the word out. We would like if people.

01;12;57;12 - 01;12;58;28
Speaker 2
Right. That's right.

01;12;59;00 - 01;13;06;20
Speaker 1
Like if it helps people then it should. And but I do struggle with it because, you know, see episode one.

01;13;06;23 - 01;13;30;01
Speaker 2
You go back to me, I see, oh, that's obvious episodes. We'll explain why we struggle with those things. Yes, yes, it's hard when we'll explain it all. Well, and in a way, I think that there's a, there's a consistent beauty to how you do that, Marie, because you go, you know, you talk about the need for humility, but then you try and live in a humble, unassuming way, right?

01;13;30;01 - 01;13;53;11
Speaker 2
It's like you're not. You're not? Well, I was talking about the disconnect. Right. Well, we can. Yeah, we can talk about. Oh, yeah, we need humility. We need humility. But my next meeting is going to be the best meeting you've ever been to, right? Like the need for humility, the conversation around you, there's a disconnect between how church culture practices our values and what we do and what we recognize as truly important.

01;13;53;13 - 01;14;24;06
Speaker 2
And we can. And as modern Western, civil, citizens, modern Western people, we're really good at divorcing the practical identity. What I think about myself in my thought life, from how I live and express my life, we're really good at making those two things at odds with each other and going, oh, well, you know, but it's also why the the world has been set on fire with anxiety and depression because, oh, yeah, we can't, yeah.

01;14;24;06 - 01;14;27;17
Speaker 1
Look what social media does it. It's all about image and ego.

01;14;27;17 - 01;14;45;01
Speaker 2
But we can't live in likes. Then we can't square away the cities. Like there's a vast gulf between how we think about ourselves and how we live our life. Right? Yeah. And in that gulf is a thing called cognitive dissonance. And that that's.

01;14;45;01 - 01;14;46;16
Speaker 1
What that is. You can't.

01;14;46;16 - 01;15;09;17
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's exactly what that is. You can't get away. You can't get rid of cognitive dissonance when those two things are so wildly separate. How I live my you know, I'm a good, loving, honest human being. Right? But I cheat on my taxes, right? So I believe this about myself. But then in practice, I'm I live a different way.

01;15;09;17 - 01;15;27;28
Speaker 2
And now right in the middle of that is the anxious bubble that won't go away, because that anxious bubble is designed to cause me to look in here and go, why do I act this way and believe this way? And if I don't look in here, the anxious bubble just grows and grows and grows and grows. Yeah, right.

01;15;27;28 - 01;15;28;10
Speaker 2
And then I.

01;15;28;10 - 01;15;30;19
Speaker 1
Start. Everybody, this is Paul. And like Romans.

01;15;30;23 - 01;15;49;00
Speaker 2
Exactly what it is. Romans seven and eight. Right? Why do I do this? Why do I keep doing it? Because the anxious bubble keeps growing, because that cognitive dissonance isn't going anywhere. You say you're like this, right where the Israelites were the people of God. We follow him. Give us all your money. Right. The temple money. The temple guys.

01;15;49;02 - 01;15;49;14
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;15;49;14 - 01;16;07;17
Speaker 2
It's a cognitive dissonance right there. The anxiety bubble grows and it doesn't go away. And so now we self-medicate. We go to, you know, after there's nothing wrong with, medication or anything. I'm just going, you know, or there's a reason why we live the way that we do.

01;16;07;19 - 01;16;22;00
Speaker 1
And I might share this before, but I'll share it because it's a good story. So Paul Keating, the old prophet guy, he's with Jack, dear, and they're doing something in Australia. And the first night, PA, God comes and crazy things are happening and I think that you need said, come, Holy Spirit, the fire alarm. It set the fire alarms off.

01;16;22;00 - 01;16;39;13
Speaker 1
The fire department breaks. Right? Right. You know, crazy. Next night he goes on stage, if I remember correctly, how this goes. I mean, there's like 5000 people there. He drops his glasses. He bends over to pick them up. He steps on them on the way down to pick his glasses. He hits his head on the pulpit. Everybody's laughing.

01;16;39;15 - 01;16;59;01
Speaker 1
He can't find his notes. It's a clown show. And he just walks off. He just walks off the stage, you know? And Jack was really mad, right? Like this guy, you know, people are paying money for this, like, what's going on. And so the next day they're walking on the beach before the next meeting, and he goes and Jack says to them, so Paul, what happened last night?

01;16;59;03 - 01;17;10;20
Speaker 1
And Paul Keating says, you know, I've got this power in a jar of clay. And sometimes God wants to show off the power. Sometimes he wants to show off the jar. It's not up to me, right?

01;17;10;22 - 01;17;12;03
Speaker 2
Right, Ed.

01;17;12;05 - 01;17;16;10
Speaker 1
And to learn to be okay with that. Yeah. In our own lives.

01;17;16;11 - 01;17;18;13
Speaker 2
Right? That's right, that's right.

01;17;18;13 - 01;17;21;01
Speaker 1
I think that would be cool if we could.

01;17;21;03 - 01;17;23;00
Speaker 2
Yeah, I agree, and.

01;17;23;00 - 01;17;42;18
Speaker 1
You know, everybody, I really do think that you get to the point where, you know, turn the other cheek. You know, if somebody asks you for a garment, give them to, you know, consider yourself blessed when people hate you and you know, so really did the prophets, right? You can get to a point, believe it or not, where when these things happen, you do have joy.

01;17;42;20 - 01;18;03;26
Speaker 1
You can. But the fact that we don't and I, you know, very few people who do, but there's a few times I've touched that I can't see many, but but I realize that some healing has gone on inside and and and, and the reason that we don't, aren't very good at it is that we haven't made it a value that's.

01;18;03;26 - 01;18;04;26
Speaker 2
Right.

01;18;04;29 - 01;18;15;29
Speaker 1
To to look at it and work on it. You know, again, in the Orthodox Church, mentoring is the thing, you know, finding a spiritual mother or father in our church, it's doing the vision or learning theology.

01;18;16;04 - 01;18;16;17
Speaker 2
That's right.

01;18;16;17 - 01;18;34;16
Speaker 1
And none of that really helps you if somebody rejects you. Okay, I'm going to go look at my theology now, and I'm going to deal with this big wound in my heart. Right. You know what might get you the right way? But learning how to love, learning to be with somebody who knows how to do it, you know, those are important church culture things.

01;18;34;16 - 01;18;51;01
Speaker 1
And and to realize we're, you know, we're all broken. We're all working our way through stuffing. Right. You know, it. It's just a journey and just a journey of change and becoming a diocese. And we have these passions hidden inside of us. That's right. They need to be healed. And it's from that stupid tree.

01;18;51;03 - 01;19;10;07
Speaker 2
That's right, that's right, that's right. Yeah, yeah. Very good. Well, I think with that, that would be an excellent place to draw this episode to a close. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. And as with us, with all of these episodes, it's always wonderful to spend time with you, although it's also good to see you in real life, in person and around.

01;19;10;07 - 01;19;11;07
Speaker 1
Well, the pope is, you.

01;19;11;07 - 01;19;36;07
Speaker 2
Know, in the default world. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. That's right. Well, everybody, I hope that this conversation, brought some sense to you or at least frustrated you. And, and, you know, we're we're along for the journey, and we appreciate that. Each of you, you're along for the journey, and we've been having a good time and, enjoying it.

01;19;36;08 - 01;19;47;09
Speaker 2
Spend some time with some of you guys that have been listening. And the last week was I was away. And your feedback has been really, really, really encouraging.

01;19;47;09 - 01;20;01;20
Speaker 1
Yeah. Thank you everybody, for, that that's really nice. Yeah. And you know, we realize everyone, you know, hopefully you're listening because you're like, yeah I've experienced this in the church and I understand I see this and that. That's probably most of our, our audience.

01;20;01;20 - 01;20;02;17
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01;20;02;20 - 01;20;05;05
Speaker 1
And hopefully there's a few of you that haven't seen it and you're like, oh, I'm.

01;20;05;05 - 01;20;26;18
Speaker 2
So offended today. Yeah. That's right, that's right. Well you'll see it eventually. God bless you. You know Murray. Murray and I say Murray and I, I think I can speak for you, Murray, is that we've seen a lot of stuff yet we've refused to lose heart that the father still is pursuing a bride for his son. Exactly right.

01;20;26;22 - 01;20;27;00
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01;20;27;01 - 01;20;30;01
Speaker 1
That's what it's all about. Yeah. It's becoming, which we've talked about.

01;20;30;02 - 01;20;30;14
Speaker 2
That's right.

01;20;30;14 - 01;20;46;24
Speaker 1
And I watch those episodes, everybody, if you if you haven't, you know, I know, it's a bit I feel a bit of a shame, you know, shame. It's a shame. I don't feel shame. It's just a shame that that those episodes numerically on The Bride, a lot less people watch them. Which is a real shame, because that's the point.

01;20;46;25 - 01;20;48;07
Speaker 2
That is all the point.

01;20;48;10 - 01;20;57;10
Speaker 1
And to miss that, everything has a context which is loving intimacy with God, and to not get that if you skip those, you should really go back.

01;20;57;10 - 01;20;59;10
Speaker 2
Maybe I should go make some God.

01;20;59;13 - 01;21;01;01
Speaker 1
I wonderful future for you.

01;21;01;01 - 01;21;04;06
Speaker 2
I need some we need some better clickbait titles.

01;21;04;08 - 01;21;08;06
Speaker 1
Yeah, maybe that's what. That's it. Back to that again. Yeah.

01;21;08;09 - 01;21;39;28
Speaker 2
That's right, that's right. Well, full circle now. Yeah. Anyway, here we go. Yeah. We love you everybody. Thanks so much for listening. And we'll see you next week. Next week, next week. Sweet. Love is the boy slowly disappears. That's right. Yeah. Goodbye, everybody.

01;21;40;01 - 01;21;40;07
Speaker 2
You.