Distinctives, leadership, and the flaws in denominational thinking

On the podcast today, Murray and Josh interview their good friend Steve Schroeder, the President of CMA (www.canadacma.org). Steve talks about above the line thinking, hub and spoke ministries and churches, shifting to an open architecture mindset, and the difference between call and assignment. The boys go deep in this one. Join the Voices from the Desert crew as they dive in!

For more about Steve Schroeder and CMA, visit: https://canadacma.org/
For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/

Transcript

00;00;00;20 - 00;00;22;04
Steve Schroeder
You know my dad, my dad said, tell me some things about about leadership. I when I answered him once, like, like he's 93 and he's in a vulnerable state right now where people have to help him around and it's it's difficult. Well, I said in once, you know, what's the one thing you want me to tell leaders or remind leaders of?

00;00;22;04 - 00;00;49;00
Steve Schroeder
And he said, just remind them to be humble. And we we take that. And, you know, it's a crazy thing. Tozer in his book, said, he said, when you're in prayer meditation, write down what you believe to be are your virtues. Oh, and in reality you will realize that they are actually your weaknesses. Oh, because it's still all about you.

00;00;49;02 - 00;00;54;11
Josh Hoffert
Right. It's really good.

00;00;54;13 - 00;01;04;24
Steve Schroeder
It's still all about you. Yeah. And that's that dilemma where God hasn't done what we want him to do for us. It's still about us.

00;01;04;26 - 00;01;35;08
Josh Hoffert
Yeah. I think that's that's what. Why don't we pause just to do station identification and keep that? We've got this. Well, just stay intro control, and then we'll keep that conversation.

00;01;35;11 - 00;01;39;10
Steve Schroeder
Moving.

00;01;39;12 - 00;01;46;07
Steve Schroeder
You.

00;01;46;10 - 00;02;03;00
Steve Schroeder
Welcome, everyone, to voices from Denver. This is, Yeah, it was at a school year. Yeah.

00;02;03;03 - 00;02;15;17
Murray Dueck
I don't know. I've been thinking about Scooby Doo and I thought I would change it up today because we're working on a mystery. We're working on a mystery with somebody. You know, I had a comment the other day. We better bring in somebody who knows what they're talking about.

00;02;15;19 - 00;02;22;17
Steve Schroeder
Yeah, that's right. But I went in, I'm hoping it's going to be you. So we're hoping.

00;02;22;17 - 00;02;27;17
Josh Hoffert
Yeah, we've we've pulled the mask on and gone or pulled the mask off and on. It's Steve Schroeder.

00;02;27;19 - 00;02;29;10
Steve Schroeder
Yeah, yeah.

00;02;29;13 - 00;02;31;00
Josh Hoffert
He's the culprit. Yeah. That's right.

00;02;31;01 - 00;02;35;07
Murray Dueck
We're going to jump into the Mystery Machine and take it around the block here everybody.

00;02;35;09 - 00;02;37;06
Steve Schroeder
Yeah. So I was I was editing.

00;02;37;06 - 00;02;46;02
Josh Hoffert
An old, old podcast episode from a few months ago and came across the one where Murray, you sounded like a sick and wounded coyote. It was pretty funny.

00;02;46;06 - 00;02;48;00
Steve Schroeder
Oh, really? Yeah.

00;02;48;02 - 00;02;56;09
Murray Dueck
I always try to change it up a little bit. Steve. I just, like, gotta do what would sound good echoing in a canyon. That's just anything to me would be fine.

00;02;56;11 - 00;02;59;15
Steve Schroeder
Yes, yes. Yeah, it's.

00;02;59;17 - 00;03;04;22
Josh Hoffert
About the desert. So. Yeah. Well, murder.

00;03;04;24 - 00;03;05;13
Steve Schroeder
Well,

00;03;05;16 - 00;03;13;19
Josh Hoffert
Well, by the way, I guess we should say this is. This is Murray. Do it. I don't I don't do this very often. This is. Yeah, we do it. He's across the way across the country.

00;03;13;19 - 00;03;14;29
Murray Dueck
I am in the desert.

00;03;15;01 - 00;03;15;06
Steve Schroeder
Yeah.

00;03;15;10 - 00;03;18;26
Murray Dueck
I literally supposedly, I think.

00;03;18;28 - 00;03;19;12
Steve Schroeder
Arizona.

00;03;19;12 - 00;03;27;11
Josh Hoffert
Dark tundra for a little while in the desert other times. So he runs same old. Yeah.

00;03;27;14 - 00;03;37;24
Murray Dueck
And drive does win ministry. Then Steve is like our Uncle Steve. We we would kind of call him more like a spiritual father, but but we'll get a good Uncle Steve story.

00;03;37;24 - 00;03;41;27
Steve Schroeder
I just you will be. Yeah.

00;03;42;00 - 00;03;50;02
Josh Hoffert
That's right. We've had Steve on the podcast before and we thought, we'd have him on again because he's a good friend and we like spending time with them, so.

00;03;50;04 - 00;03;57;23
Murray Dueck
And why not go straight to the source? He's where Josh and I go to figure things out. So we're just gonna take all of you with us today.

00;03;57;25 - 00;04;01;09
Steve Schroeder
That's right, that's right. Three of you. Thank you.

00;04;01;09 - 00;04;12;16
Josh Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. So everything Steve is going to fix, all the things that we've said that we shouldn't have said. So yeah, he's got the he's got the ultimate delete key for us. The backspace key. Yeah.

00;04;12;19 - 00;04;20;15
Steve Schroeder
So that's like don't make me use it. Just delete. Yeah.

00;04;20;17 - 00;04;22;12
Murray Dueck
It's like the nuclear option right.

00;04;22;16 - 00;04;22;28
Steve Schroeder
Yeah.

00;04;22;28 - 00;04;43;18
Josh Hoffert
That's right, that's right. Well and and we were thinking Murray and I, we've been, we've been kind of talking through the way God forms leaders. The, you know, contemporary culture and want to, you know, one of the, one of the conversations we had was what's our what's our the aim of our of, what's the aim of the church?

00;04;43;18 - 00;05;10;27
Josh Hoffert
Is it to conquer the world? Is it to be the judicial witness in the world? You know, we talk through all that kind of stuff. So, Steve, as a, a leader of leaders, you know, he's overseeing networks of leaders and helping, You know, I think I think Steve would would, you me, the one word is bristle, but if I, I don't speak too highly of you because I know you just would go.

00;05;10;27 - 00;05;19;07
Josh Hoffert
Oh, no. So he leads leaders and he helps them, find their place in life. So we'll just say that. Is that fair.

00;05;19;10 - 00;05;21;03
Steve Schroeder
To. Yeah.

00;05;21;05 - 00;05;23;18
Josh Hoffert
And so we thought we thought, you know, with all the, with all.

00;05;23;18 - 00;05;24;26
Steve Schroeder
The.

00;05;24;29 - 00;05;48;02
Josh Hoffert
You know, the questions people have about leaders and what's this like the last what from political leaders and church leaders and everything. It's always seems to be so topsy turvy that we bring on someone who, we both look at as a place of, inspiration, wisdom and strength. So that's Steve Schroeder for you.

00;05;48;04 - 00;05;56;19
Steve Schroeder
You know, jump in with a quick story, you know? Yeah, yeah. Go for it. Yeah. Well, he it's it's great to be with you guys. I wish. I wish we were all actually in a room one day.

00;05;56;19 - 00;05;57;28
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that would be just.

00;05;57;28 - 00;06;04;00
Steve Schroeder
The vibe is so much more fun. Yeah. Than online.

00;06;04;02 - 00;06;07;26
Josh Hoffert
But it's easier to edit the audio afterwards when it's like that, too, so.

00;06;07;28 - 00;06;38;18
Steve Schroeder
I, I, I'm not one who loves great introductions, because it's like way too much to live up to. And so when, when we gather in different meetings and whatnot, you know, when you introduce a speaker traditionally it's, you know, this is what the person's done, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know what they've accomplished? They've written books, they visited, you know, you know, 4000 countries of the world, you know, those kind of things.

00;06;38;21 - 00;07;06;05
Steve Schroeder
And, and we and it really inflates us a little bit. Right. And, and it also validates the people that are in have invited the guest in, you know, oh, this is who we know and this is what they do. But recently what we've done is, when we get up to introduce somebody, we say, please don't introduce us by what we've done, introduce us by what we mean to you and who we are to you, and walk that out from a place of affection.

00;07;06;05 - 00;07;27;11
Steve Schroeder
And so we put it in a church words. And I said that the pastor said, please don't introduce me, for you know what I've done or what I'm doing. Introduce me for you know who I am to you. And so he gets up and he goes, now Steve told me, we know Steve does a lot of things, you know, but this, you know, Steve told me, to introduce him to, to, who he is to me.

00;07;27;14 - 00;07;41;23
Steve Schroeder
And so and then he said and then he went on to say, you know, there's a setting on your dryer. It's not it says normal, you know, and, and Steve's not a sitting on your dryer, but he's just a normal guy.

00;07;41;25 - 00;07;49;04
Steve Schroeder
I just thought that's the best introduction, I think, ever. Yeah, he's just a normal guy. Well, you know, I'm.

00;07;49;06 - 00;08;15;05
Josh Hoffert
Just thinking about that, Steve. Like diving into leadership and culture and everything. I'm just thinking about in the just just introducing you in this context and going, you know, Murray and I, we just we just started by talking about our affection for you. Right? We turn to Steve, and he's the one that helps us. Right. But the funny thing is, culturally, I'm going, oh, but it's a podcast.

00;08;15;05 - 00;08;30;27
Josh Hoffert
You know, I've got to tell him what he's done. I got to tell him what he's responsible for and all of that. Right? There's this pressure that kind of looms in the background that goes, well, it's not enough for me to talk about how affectionate I am for him. I've got to tell people his accomplishments so they think highly of them.

00;08;30;29 - 00;08;34;04
Josh Hoffert
And it's like a whole, where does that kind of pressure come from?

00;08;34;07 - 00;08;37;25
Steve Schroeder
Yeah, yeah. Or actually listen to what he says.

00;08;38;00 - 00;08;41;06
Josh Hoffert
Or listen to what he supports, right. Yeah.

00;08;41;08 - 00;08;43;04
Steve Schroeder
Yeah. That's true.

00;08;43;07 - 00;09;03;16
Murray Dueck
Well, I got to tell a little story. It keeps going through my brain. So I'm going to tell it okay. And Steve can correct it like that's about his life. So, it's always stuck with me and and and it's, it's such a miraculous living by faith story. But that's not about the part of the story I'm going to tell.

00;09;03;18 - 00;09;07;21
Murray Dueck
It's just this one little piece of holding a ladder.

00;09;07;23 - 00;09;09;25
Steve Schroeder
But that.

00;09;09;27 - 00;09;11;18
Josh Hoffert
I know this story. So great.

00;09;11;20 - 00;09;31;14
Murray Dueck
So, Steve, by faith, the Lord asked them to have faith to get this Save-On-Foods building. It's kind of like, you know, for you, American Safeway or, you know, a big shopping, food store that's kind of gone defunct in this town of hope. And God says, believe for it, you know, to get it, make it into a church.

00;09;31;14 - 00;09;55;08
Murray Dueck
Right. So and see, Steve's going to have to correct this, which is great. And and so he does. He does. And God provides that all these crazy things that happen. And it's this, this incredible story and and maybe it's as you get older, you're drawn to, to different parts of the story, you know, but there's this great part where the Lord has said, you know, and they're renting it out to some other people and, you know, they're sharing this space.

00;09;55;08 - 00;10;11;15
Murray Dueck
And so there's another church renting part of this building to. And, the Lord has said to Steve, don't put your name on the building. Right. Don't put your name on the building. Just. Okay. You know, so here's said faith forward and believe forward. It did all this stuff that God says, don't put your name on in your church's name.

00;10;11;17 - 00;10;35;04
Murray Dueck
And he walks around the corner. There's the other church putting their name on the building. And the Lord said to Steve, go hold their ladder. The wind gets a little rough up there. It might blow it, blow their side down. So there's Steve holding the ladder of this other church, putting the name up on the building. He had faith for.

00;10;35;07 - 00;10;37;19
Steve Schroeder
That is beautiful.

00;10;37;21 - 00;10;47;06
Murray Dueck
And, out, of course, eventually they took their name now, Duke, because they realized, hey, we're a community. But still, what a beautiful thing. The making of a leader right there.

00;10;47;08 - 00;11;24;09
Steve Schroeder
Yeah. That is true. It's the making of like. And that the making of a leader. It never stops because it's never about the work. It's not about the building or anything like that. It's. Who am I becoming? And why am I becoming more like him? And it's a process that goes on it. Even when we were at our, CMA gathering or national gathering, three weeks ago, I had said that I had to said, you know, I had this huge sense of the majesty of God and the weightiness of his presence.

00;11;24;12 - 00;11;48;13
Steve Schroeder
And I felt nudged by the Lord to ask a few people when they share, before they share, tell them what CMA means to you. And I never do that. I never do that. So the Lord says, I want you to do that. So I did it. And the first person gets up and shares, you know, and this is how they started.

00;11;48;15 - 00;12;08;07
Steve Schroeder
It's the sweetest person. And I love her dearly. And in what she's doing in her yes to Jesus. And she says, oh, I just am so grateful for CMA. You know, Steve is just like a dad. He reminds me so much of my dad and he's just been there for me. And I'm going, oh, this is now.

00;12;08;10 - 00;12;28;17
Steve Schroeder
You're not telling them what you. Maybe you tell them what I mean to you. Like, this is getting a little. This felt awkward. And then the next person gets up and oh, and what I did was, she said, oh, you remind me of my dad. And in a jest, I said I would rather be rude. I would rather that I remind you of your brother, not your dad.

00;12;28;19 - 00;12;51;17
Steve Schroeder
You know, it's, Yeah. And, and so, so then the next person gets up and they do the same thing. They don't see what they are weeping. Oh, Steve means so much to me. And, he's just like this, dad. And, And I'm going. I'm starting to hear my name far too much in this place.

00;12;51;19 - 00;13;11;08
Steve Schroeder
Yeah, it's not a good thing. I remember Francis Chan once said, when he left his church at Simi Valley, he said, the moment I hear my name being spoken more than Jesus, I'm done. And I have this in the back of my head. And so I'm deflecting, deflecting, deflecting, you know, and, and 3 or 4 times that happen.

00;13;11;11 - 00;13;36;15
Steve Schroeder
And I deflected it all and, and, and because I didn't want, I never wanted any kind of or I guess it's an aversion to a political spirit. No, I don't want any body to rally around a person other than Christ. And anytime you see a political spirit, they're rallying around a person or a cause or something like that, other than Christ.

00;13;36;17 - 00;13;58;12
Steve Schroeder
And it's they're trying to fulfill their own, you know, like we hear it, we watch it in, in church leadership all the time. Well, I'm a spiritual father and I have this many sons, but we gathered them to myself and and we have this pride, almost like we built this trowel in this barn. And we're our spiritual sons or these beautiful stallions that we're showing off to everybody.

00;13;58;12 - 00;14;24;20
Steve Schroeder
Look how what a great ranch owner I am, you know? And so I'm just going opposite of that opposite, opposite, opposite. So I get home and the Lord's in my, in my morning time with the Lord. He goes, hey, by the way, you know, you you were deflecting like everybody was sharing about how that you, they love you and you were deflecting that.

00;14;24;22 - 00;14;54;25
Steve Schroeder
He said, I'd like you to repent. Oh. And so, I mean, again, it's not about the work. And, you know, trying to protect the work. I was missing his heart because I was hearing his heart, but I was I, I wanted to deflect it, you know. And so I called I called up the first person and I said, you know, you told me, I reminded you of your dad, and and I was pushing that away, and and I just need to repent.

00;14;54;27 - 00;15;24;03
Steve Schroeder
And if you see me that way, then I'm just really humbled and honored. And I don't want to take that from you. Right. She, you know, cries. Oh, great. So then I like person, I repent like I repented like four times because I realized in it I wasn't I was more deflecting me rather than what is the Lord doing in this?

00;15;24;05 - 00;15;51;14
Steve Schroeder
And it's organic and beautiful and natural. It's again, it's that making of a leader. There's no endgame other than am I more like him? More like Christ, you know, and and in that and and of course. And then someone said to me, because I when I introduce myself, I've often introduced myself as Uncle Steve and they said, is the era of Uncle Steve over.

00;15;51;16 - 00;16;16;07
Steve Schroeder
And I went, I wonder, you know, I just want to be this brother to everybody. And I realizing that there there's, there's something more in that. And I know it's a bit of a rabbit trail here, but about leadership. But it's not, it's not up to me. And he said, this is, you know, the only answer to a political spirit is the spirit of a mother and a father.

00;16;16;09 - 00;16;40;17
Steve Schroeder
Oh, interesting. And I went, oh, I said, tell me about that. And he says, this is it's not, you know, a political spirit rises up to establish itself as a ruler and want to be recognized as ruler. And the only antithesis of that is what mothers and fathers do and who they are and what they bring. And he said to me this.

00;16;40;17 - 00;17;09;11
Steve Schroeder
He said, you know, the one of the first strong revelations of the political spirit took place when Israel decided they didn't want to be led by Samuel. The they wanted a king. And when Samuel said, oh, Jesus, you know, or God, they're they're rejecting me. And he says, no, they're not rejecting you, Samuel. They're rejecting me. They don't want me as their dad or father.

00;17;09;11 - 00;17;39;08
Steve Schroeder
They want a king like everybody else. It's a political spirit. And I went and then he says, and the way the father said to me, the way I answered, that was I raised up David, a man after my own heart. And I said, well, how is he a father? And he said, this. The first instance of God attempting to thwart and crush the political spirit was in the affection that Jonathan had with David.

00;17;39;11 - 00;18;04;28
Steve Schroeder
Or Jonathan was heir to the throne. And because of his love and affection for David, he said, oh, I'll give up my place. It's, it's rightly yours. Right. And you go no political spirit in Jonathan like you stand at all like zero you know, and and then you watch it where David, you know, is in the cave with Saul and he cuts the garment in and it feels terrible.

00;18;04;28 - 00;18;32;14
Steve Schroeder
He realizes there's that political spirit wanting to seize what and take what is rightly ours and is like, I'm not going to do that. And then you find in the story, the next appearance of the political spirit is with, you know, when David is dying and Absalom goes, oh, I'm going to take this. So ordains himself as king, sets himself up as a big party.

00;18;32;17 - 00;18;57;20
Steve Schroeder
And Bathsheba says to David, you know, Absalom set himself up as king, but you promised me that Solomon would reign on the throne. And so David goes, yeah, I love you, honey. Let's. And so they install Solomon as king, and it's a bigger party. And Absalom runs terribly, you know, they're all fleeing for their lives, you know, because they wanted to kill David.

00;18;57;22 - 00;19;23;08
Steve Schroeder
And then. And then you realize the heart of it, that in David, when when the commander comes back and says to David, you know, Absalom is dead, is no longer a threat. And David runs the guy through with his sword because the grief for his son. That's just the worst news I could hear that he died.

00;19;23;10 - 00;19;50;15
Steve Schroeder
I never wanted that. I never wanted him to chase me. I never wanted my heart. And still for him, you realize that heart of a father and and so in, in my journeys as I'm walking this out leadership in life, I'm realizing, that's really the end game. It's. Yeah. To be like the father and everything and not push that away.

00;19;50;17 - 00;19;59;07
Steve Schroeder
Becoming more like the father. And, Yeah. So it's been it's been a shaping time for me to be good.

00;19;59;10 - 00;20;23;08
Josh Hoffert
Well, and I wonder if, you know, one of the one of the things that you talk about, in regards to, you know, kind of what you're saying is the open architecture leadership versus hub and spoke leadership. And I wonder if, you know, in that, in that, you know, I'm, you know, I'm hearing my name too much.

00;20;23;11 - 00;20;38;06
Josh Hoffert
You know, that whole thing that happened at the annual gathering, was there a bit of a what, you know. Well, I don't I don't want to be hub and spoke. That's not who I am. I don't want to be the person in the middle. Everybody doesn't revolve around me. Right? Yeah. And.

00;20;38;09 - 00;20;39;05
Steve Schroeder


00;20;39;07 - 00;20;54;24
Josh Hoffert
And so I because I'm just thinking, like you said, you were a bit I don't know what you said, but you said something like you were a bit embarrassed. You were hearing your name. So it was awkward. It wasn't. You were it was. Oh, it was only awkward to you. It wasn't awkward to anybody else. Because all of us are looking.

00;20;54;25 - 00;21;19;20
Josh Hoffert
Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's Steve to us too, right? That's how we're all thinking in the room, right? But we're not thinking. Oh, answer. So awkward. They're saying so many nice things about a guy that we're so affectionate. Well, yeah, and but you're in so, part of the reason why I think people gravitate towards leaders like Steve is he doesn't require anything of me.

00;21;19;20 - 00;21;44;09
Josh Hoffert
He just loves me. And that's such a different dynamic than we're used to in the body of Christ is. It's so hub and spoke is I just as long as I'm related to the leader in the middle? I have purpose and value. Yeah. And and so something you've been talking about for a number of years now is, is and I wonder if you would still use the same language, open architecture versus having spoke, what's it.

00;21;44;11 - 00;22;10;27
Steve Schroeder
Yeah, I definitely use the same language because it's not my language. It was something that he, showed me and revealed to me, and how the body of Christ is still very much hub and spoke and not always leader centric. Sometimes the hub and spoke is cause centric. Yeah, or or theology centric teaching. Right. So certain.

00;22;11;04 - 00;22;13;14
Josh Hoffert
Or the ministry or ministry centric is.

00;22;13;16 - 00;22;39;16
Steve Schroeder
Ministry centric or those kind of things. And I think that that's where we we lose the sense of family because, you know, even in my family, you know, I've got four grown adult kids. They're all different. But they don't once they leave the home and they marry and they do different things, they're they're not under my authority the same way they were when they were under my roof.

00;22;39;19 - 00;23;01;02
Steve Schroeder
And yet I still have that. What does that look like to move? You know, we live and move and have our being together. But in this organic nature of, open or, and open architecture is simply where the different. So my kids relate to one another and they relate to me, but they don't have to go through me to relate to them.

00;23;01;04 - 00;23;25;09
Steve Schroeder
And that's that's what open architecture really is. It's teaching them how to communicate well to one another, without having to always come back to me, even though I'm they're my offspring. And I think it's the same way that, you know, as they're, they're growing and and individuated and that, you know, that's the beauty is I want them to become mature.

00;23;25;12 - 00;23;50;13
Steve Schroeder
And it's the same thing with Christ with us. You know, we'd go through Christ to get to the father because Christ is the father. You know, representative of the father in the flesh. But he wants us to relate to the father. And, and that's, that's a that's a big part of that open architecture. I think open architecture is the is the Trinity.

00;23;50;15 - 00;24;14;07
Steve Schroeder
They're all one, but they're all unique and they're it's not. You know, the Holy Spirit doesn't have to go through the father or through the son. Like it's like there's something more organic, mentally beautiful. And it's still a mystery in that. But I would say that that's, you know, we in in a, in a hub and spoke we it's we are still looking at what you know it goes back to the early comment we made here.

00;24;14;13 - 00;24;41;12
Steve Schroeder
You know I'm not happy with God because he didn't do things the way I thought you should. And so hub and spoke is really much, much more that I need to maintain some control to accomplish the things I think we're supposed to accomplish for God. And it it's it's, Yeah, it's a it's a it's a sacred place to be a not hub and spoke where everything has to come back to the center, to the focus.

00;24;41;12 - 00;25;04;27
Steve Schroeder
And that's why even in church culture, where we see ministries implode, very oftentimes, they were hub and spoke. And so when the leader goes, then, you know, we always say, you know, will the ministry exist if the leader isn't there? I don't know if that's the best question. You know, because then we we're still focusing on the on the work.

00;25;05;00 - 00;25;05;28
Josh Hoffert
Not right.

00;25;06;00 - 00;25;25;17
Steve Schroeder
Who are the people becoming that are associated or moving around that word? It's like when I go to churches, I was at a church once and they they were they said, oh, we're going to, you know, they were a different denomination. And they said, we're we're starting on a series to share our our 11 distinctive. And I went, oh okay.

00;25;25;17 - 00;25;47;24
Steve Schroeder
I'm not part of this denomination. You know, you're going to share with me. Your distinct is in there. First distinctive was we care for the poor. I said in my brain I'm going when was that yours. Like everybody we all care for the poor. That doesn't make you distinct from. Because when you say that we're distinct from others, you're you're again focusing everything back on yourself.

00;25;47;26 - 00;26;14;08
Steve Schroeder
And, and I thought I heard Jesus say to me, the important thing isn't to share your distinctiveness, to to see people become mature and strong so that wherever they go, they're going to be okay. Not, oh, you know, you know, we do this sometimes. Oh, I'm part of this denomination. So I'm moving to Ontario. I'm going to look for a church just like the one I had, you know, same group, same denomination, give us the same beliefs, distinctive.

00;26;14;11 - 00;26;38;00
Steve Schroeder
And you realize, well, you're you're it's still hub and spoke for them. They're not strong and can go anywhere and be okay or be in prison and be okay. They still they still need to focus on, you know, something as an anchor, a work of an organ or an expression rather than who they are becoming in Christ.

00;26;38;03 - 00;26;52;04
Steve Schroeder
And are they becoming more like Christ? So. So I yeah, I would use the same language hub and spoke versus open architecture. Yeah. Yeah. It's good language.

00;26;52;06 - 00;27;18;11
Murray Dueck
So as, as a leader that transition I'm just thinking of the people listening. And just the language around becoming versus doing as far as development. As for you as a leader, as somebody who has been in leadership, how did you make that change? What were some of the things that really marked you in going from, like a hub and spoke mentality?

00;27;18;14 - 00;27;32;11
Murray Dueck
Because that would be typical for people. You, you've ministered with around people who led you. Do you've had to buck the trend a little bit, you know, and, and and really look at things a, a different way to get here. How did that process.

00;27;32;14 - 00;28;04;19
Steve Schroeder
As it happens, it's yeah, it's a great question. I think I think for me, it began before I was assigned, any type of official leadership. It actually began in me in my grappling with my identity as a person with Jesus Christ. And then my call, because your identity and your call, I would say it or, you know, above the line, your assignment is below the line.

00;28;04;19 - 00;28;28;18
Steve Schroeder
That's kind of language we can we won't be necessarily need to get into today. But but there's so when I would see leaders or know that I'm I'm a child of God. I'm his son. I have this calling on my life, but I don't I can't see how it fit, you know. So I was it wasn't I had an assignment already.

00;28;28;21 - 00;28;48;04
Steve Schroeder
I had a I had a, you know, an understanding of who I was in my call, but I didn't sit with that with the hub and spoke like I was a spoke that didn't feel part of the wheel. And I think that that happens a lot with individuals because then it's hub and spoke to leaders is going, you know, you have to dress like what you do.

00;28;48;05 - 00;29;10;24
Steve Schroeder
You have to talk like we do. You prophesy, right? You do. You read the Bible translation, we read. We do. And you go, oh, I'm just I, I don't feel like I like I'm striving for acceptance. And so and I realize in, in hub and spoke, you're striving for acceptance to whatever the hub is. It's almost never Christ almost never.

00;29;10;26 - 00;29;37;08
Steve Schroeder
It's usually how do we further the cause or the ministry or the role or you know, and so I had to, I had to remind myself or I'm a person in relationship with God that I'm not identified by my my role or my assignment or my function and and how I walk that out. I still remind myself that often.

00;29;37;11 - 00;30;10;24
Steve Schroeder
Jesus. It's just you. It's you and me and the assignments come and go and I, I love you and a lot of people like you. And so there's that process of you know like when, when you, you, when he is everything to you, that's the, that's the track he has you on. And then he'll, he'll, you know, give you assignments and how you walk out.

00;30;10;24 - 00;30;36;10
Steve Schroeder
That assignment is based on who you are in him, not who you are to the people around you. That's where that's where all the fights and wars and where the the all the, all the wars in church life is, are all, all about our assignment, never about our identity or our calling, ever. It's always we and I would just say that's below the line, you know, like for me I, you know, I well, I know Josh and I talk about this.

00;30;36;10 - 00;30;44;08
Steve Schroeder
It's, you know, give it up, get above the line. Your identity and your calling are above the line. Your assignments below the line.

00;30;44;10 - 00;31;01;26
Murray Dueck
Well, let's let's talk about this line because we mentioned it a whole bunch of times. Let's go through that a little bit. What that means. And it's a good schematic I think for people to maybe get some clarity for themselves to work it out in their own lives. So. Yeah. Could you, you know, break that down a bit, Steve, for us, because that's.

00;31;01;26 - 00;31;02;25
Murray Dueck
Yeah, it's very helpful.

00;31;02;25 - 00;31;23;14
Steve Schroeder
So when I'm, when we're navigating anything in our family or our, our life or our ministry or work or job or whatever, whenever there's conflict, I would have this, so when I have three pillars in my life that I realign my heart to the father, the first one is, you know, Steve, don't believe. The second one is don't get offended.

00;31;23;14 - 00;31;44;09
Steve Schroeder
Third one is, remember the big picture, Steve, it's not about you. So the above the line I would with the big picture, I go, whatever's happening in the chaos that's happening, I gotta fly higher than what's the what. I'm where I'm flying because I'm just going to get taken out or get caught up in the fear and the chaos.

00;31;44;11 - 00;32;04;15
Steve Schroeder
And so if I'm flying at 20,000ft, I mean, disaster looks terrible. I need to get up. You know, we were the George and I would talk about this. I'd say, Josh, we need to fly. Like, you know, at 80,000ft, you know? And then the next day, I go, we need to fly at 120,000ft. For them, I try.

00;32;04;16 - 00;32;05;20
Josh Hoffert
I'm trying to get up there.

00;32;05;24 - 00;32;35;10
Steve Schroeder
Yeah, but what it is, is, is so that you get, you you you see things from God's perspective, not ours. And so, it's really important because we will get lost in the forest for the trees if we don't get higher. So then, as we're navigating it out, I was having a conversation with someone at a restaurant, and we were just talking about stuff, and I said, you know, we're in a season where pivoting is really important.

00;32;35;13 - 00;32;55;17
Steve Schroeder
Because stuff's happening and, and pivoting in, in the natural world is, you know, we either go left or right. Okay. So there's an obstacle, you know we need to pivot. There's problem. We need to pivot. And the Lord said to me when you when there's an obstacle please pivot but not laterally or pivot up. Get above, get above.

00;32;55;17 - 00;33;29;19
Steve Schroeder
What's going on? Get your eyes on me. It's like Mary, your book, you know, set your, you know, on things above just the title alone and, you know, get that look for that alone. It's it's on things above. What. Oh you're pivoting up, where Christ is so in you and so in that I would say, you know, we need to pivot above the line that above the line for me when I pivot up and I see chaos or, you know, there's my identity in Christ, I'm a some, he doesn't require anything other of me other than love.

00;33;29;27 - 00;33;54;18
Steve Schroeder
And to be, my calling. My calling isn't my assignment. It's the nature of himself that he's put in me. Paul said. I'm called to be an apostle. His assignments were they changed everywhere one city, the next city, the next place. That wasn't his call. His call was to, was to the father and from the father, not appointment from men.

00;33;54;20 - 00;34;21;06
Steve Schroeder
And the revelation that he got in his calling as a set apart one as the apostle was, I'm set apart. And being sent by him where I don't know, changes what assignment looks differently? You know, when he's in Ephesus and then he's in prison and then he's, you know, on a on a ship, you know, and and then he's and then he's with a crowd around a fire and a viper, like, all the assignments change and the things.

00;34;21;11 - 00;34;42;03
Steve Schroeder
But he knew in his heart. I'm. I've been, you know, I'm one with him, and I know I'm being sent by him. I don't know what it's going to look like. And no matter what it looks like, I need to stay there. Because when. When his assignment was prison, like, how did he worship and how did he have joy?

00;34;42;03 - 00;35;07;01
Steve Schroeder
And how did you get all these? You know, he kept his eyes on things above. That's why he writes that set your minds on in Colossians three, set your minds on things above, not on the earth where Christ is seated at the right hand. For, you know, there's this place that he just pivoted up. And so, I encourage people, you know, live above the line, live above the line.

00;35;07;04 - 00;35;30;10
Steve Schroeder
And that's just kind of in a nutshell of that. And I don't think it's for Lee just for leaders. I think it's it's for people, individuals. And your assignment may be to lead a group or a ministry or Sam mantle or wind or CNA or, you know, when I was pastoring the church and hope my assignments, I had so many assignments, you know, I was a city counselor.

00;35;30;10 - 00;35;59;03
Steve Schroeder
I was passed through the church, I became leader. KMA you know, I was part of freshman ministries on the board of Samuel's Mantle. That was an assignment. That's an assignment. But that's not my identity or my calling. And, and and just learning to live with a bigger picture and, and focusing on him and loving him, because that'll take you anywhere and that'll get you through anything, you know.

00;35;59;05 - 00;36;03;12
Josh Hoffert
So, Steve, would you say.

00;36;03;14 - 00;36;06;14
Steve Schroeder
Call.

00;36;06;17 - 00;36;34;07
Josh Hoffert
Call an assignment. Right. Assignment being the thing that's presently in front of you to do that. And, you know, call I like to say that in relation to the father Paul's and possible that's from the father. So what happens or would you say, some of the stuff we witnessed today, in terms of leadership, is because assignment has been pushed above the line and taking the place of call or misunderstood with call.

00;36;34;09 - 00;36;55;18
Josh Hoffert
Like what happens when that happens when you go, well, Michael, like you had said, the, the you know, when one person, the, the person who leads a ministry passes away or moves on or whatever, then the question is, well, how do we preserve the ministry right. And and usually the response is, well, there's a call on the ministry to do something.

00;36;55;20 - 00;37;16;09
Josh Hoffert
But I, I've often thought, well, ministries aren't called. People are called. And and so but it seems to me that a lot of that happens is that the vocational assignment ends up above the line and then that's fights happen. Identity derives from that and all that. So do you see that or what happens when that happens.

00;37;16;11 - 00;37;24;20
Steve Schroeder
Well I think yeah, I just to clarify for me, I don't believe assignment ever makes it above the line.

00;37;24;23 - 00;37;26;26
Josh Hoffert
Well, I just mean people try and push it up there.

00;37;26;26 - 00;37;49;20
Steve Schroeder
Well, no, I said, well, that's kind of, but I think people should lower themselves, take themselves out of focusing on their identity. And they're calling to Paul. Calling was is it? I'm called to be a bondservant. I was his call it like his call. We think that Simon was his call. It wasn't to me. I'm a born servant.

00;37;49;20 - 00;38;13;09
Steve Schroeder
I'm I'm for him. And wherever that takes me. If I got to make ten, I'll make ten. If I'm in jail, I'm in jail. But what we do is we lower ourselves to the level below the line and leaves out those places and our cause, or our agenda or our ministry or our work becomes. And that's why there's fights and you'll find it.

00;38;13;09 - 00;38;34;13
Steve Schroeder
You'll you'll have a disagreement with someone in ministry over something in ministry. You realize, well, they're not living apart up here. They've they've lowered themselves to how do we navigate? And a lot of church life right now is spent on trying to figure out how to navigate below the line. Right. Not live above the line and below the line should work out.

00;38;34;15 - 00;39;01;15
Steve Schroeder
But like we're, we're watching leaders all over implode and, and that's unfortunate because many of them aren't coming forward saying I because I live above the line God is convicted in my heart and I need to do this in my life. I need to step away for a while. I need to work on this. They're being caught. This is all below the line, and they're trying to defend their ministry, and they're trying to salvage it, and they're trying to fix it, and they're trying to.

00;39;01;22 - 00;39;29;05
Steve Schroeder
That's all below the line. And and I sometimes I say, do this. I'm going. I hope this happens with me. You know, Lord, work in me to the place where there's anything in me that you want to work in or work on that maybe you don't want me in a place of doing a certain assignment that I need to pull out of that assignment to, to, in order to maintain my my heart above the line, help me pull away from that fleshly.

00;39;29;05 - 00;39;53;16
Steve Schroeder
Is that that assignment that's limited to this earth to work on the place in my heart like I'm hoping leaders, you know, if we if we really encourage them to live in him, for him, to him, to him, them, you know, you'll find it. You'll have any of the disagreements you have with people in ministry. You just go.

00;39;53;18 - 00;40;19;21
Steve Schroeder
They're living below the line. Where they've made it, you know, like this is my, my and they say it, this is my calling and they. And how do you refute that. Right. And yet you realize your assignment isn't your call that can change. And you have no control over that sometimes like Paul, like Paul got apprehended and thrown in jail.

00;40;19;24 - 00;40;42;15
Steve Schroeder
That wasn't his choice. Oh, I think I'll. I think God's calling me to prison. I'm going to go to prison. He did didn't wasn't his choice. And there's I, I think that that's why we have the the chaos. We do. And I think that we, we've even made causes our even our even being cause driven is below the line.

00;40;42;15 - 00;41;07;28
Steve Schroeder
I think, yeah. You know, like our, our you can have a passion for a nation and that's below the line. Still, because, you know, I mean, you could have a passion for, Czechoslovakia. And then you go, oh, crap, you change the borders. They cut that place in half. Now. Yeah. Republic. No word. My passion. Like, where's my call?

00;41;08;01 - 00;41;11;10
Steve Schroeder
I had a real burden for Czechoslovakia. Now what?

00;41;11;12 - 00;41;13;29
Murray Dueck
And you go now. You just have.

00;41;14;01 - 00;41;27;23
Steve Schroeder
Well, but but we we do that because we, our we don't understand it, and and we're on that place, you know, even eschatology. Someone.

00;41;27;27 - 00;41;29;02
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Very true.

00;41;29;05 - 00;41;53;28
Steve Schroeder
Show me your eschatology and I'll show you, you know, your focus and your passion and your life. Like, is your eschatology to behold him, see him because he's coming back. That's my eschatology. Or is it? Right? You know, we're going to, you know, Jesus, when you come back, I want to sit on either side of your throne and we're going to make this work.

00;41;53;28 - 00;42;18;15
Steve Schroeder
And it's going to restore the kingdom. And show me your eschatology, you know, and you know, and I wrote it this way. I thought, what's the one thing I should, should say is do this podcast. And I said, we often espouse good teaching and causes versus being his spouse.

00;42;18;17 - 00;42;19;16
Josh Hoffert
Right.

00;42;19;19 - 00;42;25;08
Steve Schroeder
We espouse a lot of things, but it it takes us away from being.

00;42;25;15 - 00;42;27;26
Murray Dueck
Should be a spouse instead of.

00;42;27;29 - 00;42;28;12
Steve Schroeder
A.

00;42;28;14 - 00;42;30;05
Josh Hoffert
Spouse.

00;42;30;07 - 00;42;37;05
Murray Dueck
Vs a spouse, be a spouse instead of a spouse. There's a good to work on. That's a good saying in there somewhere.

00;42;37;08 - 00;43;03;13
Steve Schroeder
Well because we espouse we adhere to good teaching and and causes and we, we, we proclaim them all. And I was watching a, a gathering the other day and I went, Jesus says to me, yeah, there's a whole lot of yelling going on in that one. We're declaring we espouse a lot of things, but are we becoming more in union?

00;43;03;14 - 00;43;16;16
Steve Schroeder
Are we? Are we his spouse? Do we walk? We go in. I'm in the father and the father's in me. Right? I'm becoming more my beloved son. He is mine.

00;43;16;18 - 00;43;22;20
Steve Schroeder
Yeah.

00;43;22;23 - 00;43;25;28
Murray Dueck
Okay, well, can I ask another question, Josh? Sure. You got something?

00;43;25;28 - 00;43;26;28
Josh Hoffert
You know, you got.

00;43;26;28 - 00;43;27;14
Steve Schroeder
No go.

00;43;27;14 - 00;43;50;06
Murray Dueck
For it. So just. I know it's something that's meant a lot to me that you've said to me personally that, I think sits in here. Right. Well, and it's something I've run into. And again, it's very, it's very spoke, it's spoken, hub spoken. We'll kind of thinking, but but you still hear it a lot in regards.

00;43;50;08 - 00;44;14;26
Murray Dueck
Who's covering are you under? You know, you get this comment. Sure. And, and it's, it's to portray I think people use it to, to really portray some level of spiritual maturity or humility. If you're under somebody covering, you're humble. If you're under somebody's covering, you're connected to their anointing. But in the end, it turns out often I found it to be quite controlling.

00;44;14;28 - 00;44;35;12
Murray Dueck
And and also, it makes you feel like if you're not plugged in to spoken, well, there's something wrong with you, because then you're not under covering. Right? And it's kind of, spiritual izing. Well, I have, you know, Spoken Hub thinking. Right. So, because that's the term you've bumped into to over, you know, a long time.

00;44;35;14 - 00;44;37;05
Steve Schroeder
So just for.

00;44;37;07 - 00;44;46;22
Murray Dueck
Me. Yeah. Really? You really. There you go. Right. It's a pyramid scheme. So, I mean, it might be good for, you know, just people out there to hear somebody who, you know, who is, you know, a leader in the church.

00;44;46;22 - 00;44;53;23
Steve Schroeder
And yeah, you know, they know,

00;44;53;25 - 00;44;58;07
Steve Schroeder
Covering the the.

00;44;58;09 - 00;45;28;13
Steve Schroeder
And I'll say it this way, if we're using the, the, the concept of above the line and below the line, the teaching, the predominant accepted, adhered to teaching often on covering is is below the line and comes from a political spirit. So a political spirit is below the line. Above the line is the spirit of fathers and mothers.

00;45;28;13 - 00;45;53;17
Steve Schroeder
God is our father. We are his kids. You know, our, our, our call is to be like him, to become like him or not. It's not our assignment or assignment is, I'm with my call and my identity are in him as a son in that I'm, like, becoming like him. Whatever my assignment is, them. I'm going to represent him.

00;45;53;19 - 00;46;20;04
Steve Schroeder
And it's going to flow from above the line. The concept of covering. Are you under somebody covering is is not I don't think it flows from the heart of mothers and fathers. I think it's from the spirit and it's still about control. And and so and I learned I learned about covering years and years ago when I was, I was given an assignment by the Lord, I was pastor your church.

00;46;20;07 - 00;46;44;16
Steve Schroeder
And the Lord said to me, I want you to run for, you know, city council and I won't. I will never do that. I don't want to do that. And the Lord said to me, you don't realize and understand that it's not about you. I want the seat, but I need a body. And it goes back to the understanding that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit.

00;46;44;19 - 00;47;14;16
Steve Schroeder
They're not ours. We still, we still want them to be ours. And we can wield Christ wherever we go. But he goes no, no, no, no, no, I want your body. So I went, oh, you want the seat? So now I'm a city councilor as well as everything else I'm doing there. And, one of our portfolios was working with First Peoples, and, we were they were opening a new center.

00;47;14;19 - 00;47;37;24
Steve Schroeder
And part of the protocol when you're in office is when another political group and because they are, you know, chief and band and elders, did you bring a protocol gift to the gathering and you present them to the chief? And so, the mayor says to me, Steve, what do we bring? And I said, let me ask these.

00;47;37;27 - 00;48;01;28
Steve Schroeder
Let me ask the father, what to bring. And he goes, okay, no. And and he, but and there's a, there's a long history of story of that, the reason why he said, okay, but we won't go into that right now. But, I said, well, what do we bring? And he said, buy the most expensive Hudson's Bay blanket you can find.

00;48;02;01 - 00;48;22;10
Steve Schroeder
And I said to the, to the mayor, because the mayor said, what did he say? And I said, I was by the most the most expensive Hudson Bay blanket you can find. And he goes, oh, that would be so offensive because it was such a political war, people, that Hudson's Bay didn't treat the First Peoples right. And there and I said, no, no, no, no, no, people didn't treat them right.

00;48;22;12 - 00;48;46;26
Steve Schroeder
But have you ever noticed what First Nation chiefs where as their performance, the blanket he goes. Yeah. And I said, I said, so what we're going to do is we're going to give them a blanket because we want to tell them that we're here as a government not to lorded over them, but to keep them warm and comfort them in all the arms.

00;48;46;26 - 00;49;10;24
Steve Schroeder
I said the reason the First Nations wanted a blanket was that it kept them. They were wool and they kept them warm, even if they got wet. Because wool, nature, even if it gets wet, it'll keep you warm. We're the first. Didn't do that. So it became a coveted item right. And, and the Lord said to me, you know, when you tuck your kids into bed at night, what do you use now?

00;49;10;25 - 00;49;40;00
Steve Schroeder
What a blanket means? Said this, you cover their head. And I went, you know, and he said, that's true. Cover in. You tuck them in, you let them know they're secure. They're that you cuddle with them. You they're warm, but you never usurp their authority or their headship. To me. And I never forgot that. And we came to brilliant.

00;49;40;03 - 00;50;01;09
Steve Schroeder
My heart. We're here just to tuck you in, not to lord over you and not to govern you. We want Christ to govern you. And again, that goes to hub and spoke versus open architecture because hub and spoke. Yeah it does doesn't. We're going to cover you. You're under our covering. And then I have a certain mantle a blanket that you're going to covet.

00;50;01;12 - 00;50;26;00
Steve Schroeder
Because I have it. And so right. Come under my, my authority, my blanket in order to be and then, you know, and then it's it's sad. It's really, really sad. And you see that with leaders all over. I think it was John Wimber that said it to John Paul Jackson. He said, you know, when he was dying, he said the leaders, a lot of them didn't come.

00;50;26;00 - 00;50;39;04
Steve Schroeder
They just wanted my they covered my, my mantle. They didn't love me. Yeah. And that's that's super sad. Yeah. Yeah. So.

00;50;39;07 - 00;51;06;04
Josh Hoffert
Question about call assignment covering above the line. All of that. One of the things that you said, Steve, was that it's and you charted it out so well in the beginning that the political spirit over against the, spirit of a father or mother and God brings fathers and mothers and that brings a, an end to the political spirit.

00;51;06;04 - 00;51;13;02
Josh Hoffert
It's only it's the only antidote to a political spirit, right. So, you know, and then relating that to, you know.

00;51;13;02 - 00;51;14;04
Steve Schroeder
You.

00;51;14;06 - 00;51;19;12
Josh Hoffert
Put fathers and mothers, that's a call above the line. We're all in relation to the father that way.

00;51;19;12 - 00;51;22;06
Steve Schroeder
So,

00;51;22;09 - 00;51;54;12
Josh Hoffert
The the question I have is then is, is the present some of the predicament or looking at the hub and spoke and living out of assignment. So because this is other language we've used in the past, how is that related to the spirit of an orphan, John? Is it is it basically, you know, is that kind of sum up everything or how would you how would that play into that?

00;51;54;14 - 00;52;25;11
Steve Schroeder
Well, it has everything to do with it because orphans live below the line, right? They they don't they don't rest. They above the line again is your identity and your call. My identity is I'm a son. My call is to be like my dad is in everything. I'm a bond servant. I'll do whatever he says. I'm surrendered to him.

00;52;25;13 - 00;52;56;16
Steve Schroeder
Whatever assignment he gives me, I'm all in. That's that. My call is to. Follow him. Do what he says. That's my call. And I'm marked by that. And it was never something man did for me. It wasn't. I was ordained by men. It was. I was called by him. Right. And that that right. That is the whole concept of orphan.

00;52;56;16 - 00;53;27;18
Steve Schroeder
This when there, when we live below the line more than we live above the line, it's revealing our awesomeness right? And when we get caught up in things or even disagreements, it reveals and it reveals our orphan. It's unfortunate. And this is where it really becomes important. The degree of your awkwardness is when you look at somebody else's work from that same point, at that.

00;53;27;20 - 00;53;49;21
Steve Schroeder
Right. Rather than I do to get above the line. My work right is the enemy wants to me to live in my old orphan. This right. Not in who I really am in him, but I'm in my work. And so that's why the the rumors and the fights. I mean, you look at it with the political spirit and with politics.

00;53;49;21 - 00;54;14;20
Steve Schroeder
We've got three political wars going on right now, two in Canada, BC we're having an election and, you know, eight days, nine days. The it's the states, it's November the 5th or whatever. And all their awfulness on both sides are showing. Right? I'm attacking you. You're attacking me. You're worse than me. I'm, you know, and and realize it's live above the line.

00;54;14;20 - 00;54;40;13
Steve Schroeder
And that's where America like, if you look at the political situation in the States, they're going, we need to live above the line. There's a bigger picture going on here of them. And and more is being revealed as they walk it out on the corruption in government and in life, you know, and that's happening in a lot of and it's happening in the church, too.

00;54;40;15 - 00;55;03;29
Steve Schroeder
You know, we're God is is realigning and revisiting wineskins everywhere and it. Yeah. The orphan this part is I think when, when, you know, Paul said it this way. Why are you being pulled back? It doesn't quite say. This is my paraphrase of a number. Why are you being pulled back into your awesomeness? Why are you returning to that?

00;55;04;01 - 00;55;31;10
Steve Schroeder
Right? You know, and Paul said to the Galatians, he says, why would you think that Christ isn't enough? Why would you be pulled back into your awesomeness where you think you can? You can do something about this to fix it or to make it better, you know, or and you know, you're and orphans or governed by rules. They have to be, and they're not governed by love and affection and their heart being transformed and renewed daily.

00;55;31;13 - 00;55;32;11
Josh Hoffert
Yeah, right.

00;55;32;13 - 00;55;59;05
Steve Schroeder
And that goes back to we we can talk about a lot of really good things. We can espouse things. But are we his spouse? You know, you know, right. Again hub and spoke is pause driven. You know, even our eschatology, you know, what is it? My dad always said this about the book of revelation because he taught in Bible school.

00;55;59;05 - 00;56;22;12
Steve Schroeder
He said, it's not the revelation of end times, it's the revelation of Jesus. And it's beautiful. Yeah. Never forgot that, you know. But everybody's made it. Not about Jesus. They've made it about the end times and how it'll be better for. Yeah. That's right. And you realized you know like he's coming when you read revelation 20 2122.

00;56;22;13 - 00;56;46;22
Steve Schroeder
You know like, I saw a new heaven and a new earth, and the old earth was passed away. And, you know, the whole I saw the New Jerusalem, the holy city descending from the throne of God dressed like a bride. And his habitation is among men. His whole desire is to be with us. Yeah. We together. It's not to how we're all going to reign and rule.

00;56;46;22 - 00;57;00;18
Steve Schroeder
It's like I want to be with you. It's like the garden creates Adam and Eve so that he could be with them. He just wants to be with us. Yeah, I that's just that's beautiful. Yeah, it's really that.

00;57;00;18 - 00;57;23;16
Josh Hoffert
Or. I'm just thinking about a for a moment. The father visited me in regards to, awfulness. Call an assignment. And I was, the the ministry I was working for. You guys all have. I've told you all this story before, but it's been a while. The founder passed away, right? John Paul Jackson. Not everybody would know who he is, who's listening, but he he passed away.

00;57;23;16 - 00;57;57;26
Josh Hoffert
And I remember going down to Texas to go to his memorial, and we had a, a smaller gathering the day before the big memorial that was, you know, funny enough, Robert Morris's church, you know, talking about leaders and awfulness and all that kind of stuff. But, and I, I, I recall distinctly sitting in the back of the room and watching these people go to the front and talk about how much affection they had for John Paul at this smaller gathering at the, at the offices, of the ministry.

00;57;57;28 - 00;58;15;21
Josh Hoffert
And, and I hadn't seen like I had been working for the ministry for I don't know, at that point for probably, on a in various different capacities for about seven years, probably at that point. Well, and I'm watching all these people go to the front going, I don't.

00;58;15;21 - 00;58;16;13
Steve Schroeder
I've.

00;58;16;16 - 00;58;35;13
Josh Hoffert
Never even met any of these people. They've been just coming out of the woodworks. Yeah, I had been pretty heavily involved for a number of years. And, and I remember standing back in the back of the room in judgment going, these people, they're not evil like they don't know the ministry. They don't know John Paul. They don't know what any of this stuff.

00;58;35;14 - 00;59;02;24
Josh Hoffert
I remember standing back in judgment and looking at them and just kind of going, who the heck is that? Who the heck is that? Who, like, is that? And, you know, my orphan was showing dramatic, and and the Lord spoke to me very clearly and he said, if you're a son. Then these are your brothers and sisters.

00;59;02;26 - 00;59;17;10
Josh Hoffert
And he said, and if you're a son, then you're an inheritor in the kingdom. And then he said, and if you have an inheritance, then your responsibility is to help your brothers and sisters walk in their inheritance.

00;59;17;12 - 00;59;18;09
Steve Schroeder
Wow.

00;59;18;12 - 00;59;37;08
Josh Hoffert
And I went over and I sat back, you know, crushed in the best way possible. And, you know, I'm just thinking about that in light of what we're talking about. Because because the temptation then is, you know, I guess ostensibly, I don't know that I'm the kind of person that would do this, but the temptation would be.

00;59;37;11 - 00;59;38;12
Steve Schroeder
Well.

00;59;38;14 - 00;59;56;10
Josh Hoffert
You know, flowing from wool, they're, you know, they're not involved. Well, let me just show them how great my gift is so they'll know how great I am. Right? And now I'll become the hub. And then they have to relate to me. And, you know, then. So the orphan dives into a moment and goes, well, I'll build it off based on that, based off of that.

00;59;56;13 - 01;00;10;27
Josh Hoffert
But the father comes in in the moment and says, no, your responsibility is to connect them with me, is to let them recognize what they all have and who they are. And you're sitting here going, well, you know, you're pointing to your point. And what made me think about that was I was pointing the finger and going, look at all these orphans.

01;00;11;00 - 01;00;13;06
Steve Schroeder
Right? Yeah.

01;00;13;11 - 01;00;15;14
Josh Hoffert
And I'm the orphan, the one that's doing it. Right.

01;00;15;14 - 01;00;17;02
Steve Schroeder
Because you're like, well.

01;00;17;06 - 01;00;27;23
Josh Hoffert
I'm so important. And I knew more and look at how great I am. I'm so thankful for moments like that where the father didn't let me go down that road.

01;00;27;26 - 01;00;28;15
Steve Schroeder
Yeah. One of the.

01;00;28;15 - 01;00;32;13
Josh Hoffert
Mystery of it is it's like some people go down that road and we're like, well, what do we.

01;00;32;13 - 01;00;33;03
Steve Schroeder
Like?

01;00;33;06 - 01;00;40;07
Josh Hoffert
You know, you want to wring their neck and bring them back, but. That's the frustration.

01;00;40;10 - 01;01;08;29
Steve Schroeder
Well, that's part of maturity too, is not wring their neck. Hahahahaha. Right. That you know I'm getting there. Well but but also, you know, there's so many things that we we want to champion. Because of our awkwardness, I think that the real spirit of apologetics out there that is more their own sphere of getting it wrong than getting to know him.

01;01;08;29 - 01;01;21;29
Steve Schroeder
Right. And so the question is, how do I get it right? Right. Because I don't want to find out. I got it wrong and that's it. That's a hard place to be to.

01;01;22;02 - 01;01;44;19
Josh Hoffert
I said to Murray one time, this was this wasn't that long ago. I said, Murray, I don't think anybody would ever claim that. They're right on everything that they think about. Like pretty much everybody would go, yeah, I'm fallible. Not everything. I, you know, there's things that I believe that aren't true for sure. Right. And I said, but the problem is when then you ask him, okay, can you tell me one of the things that you believe that's not true.

01;01;44;21 - 01;01;50;05
Steve Schroeder
Yes. So so functionally, they say they live.

01;01;50;05 - 01;01;53;13
Josh Hoffert
As if everything. They live as if they're perfect.

01;01;53;16 - 01;01;53;23
Steve Schroeder
Right?

01;01;53;23 - 01;02;02;15
Josh Hoffert
They live as if they're God. They don't recognize. They won't even admit. Oh, well, you know, that one's probably wrong. And that one's probably wrong. You know.

01;02;02;17 - 01;02;50;21
Steve Schroeder
But they don't. Those that category of people or that arena of people rarely have friends that they can hang out. You have a coffee or do whatever and talk things through, right? They don't have that. You know, you when you you know, I love following Lewis and Tolkien and, and, you know, that whole group, they call themselves the inklings, you would gather, you know, once a week and for strong tea and they would, they would bring a page or two of what they've been working on, and they'd read it to the, to their friends and then their friends would rip it all apart and you realize, but that was this.

01;02;50;23 - 01;03;15;11
Steve Schroeder
They were so enamored by their own writing, they had this friendship. Right? And that's where everything evolved out of. And so, you know, Lewis would say to Tolkien, oh, you're taking way too long to write Lord of the rings. And oh, and what about this and about that? And in talking with, say, to Lewis, oh, you're doing this way too quick.

01;03;15;11 - 01;03;50;12
Steve Schroeder
And it's just, you know, they would, but there was this love and affection for one another that who they were together helped produce, you know, good work. Right. And, and, and often, and this is hard to sometimes I find like often and it goes I'll just share one other thing that the Lord showed me about this, but we long for the affection and friendship of others, and sometimes that doesn't quite happen the way we hope it would.

01;03;50;14 - 01;04;20;00
Steve Schroeder
And so there's a, there's a not so much a disillusionment, but, a longing that it could be better. And sometimes we get, you know, and and that's why the, you know, it says about Jesus, he's a friend that sticks closer than a brother. You know, but we I came to the place where I said, you know, and I see this through a few, when you're when you're living your life, pour yourself out.

01;04;20;02 - 01;04;46;16
Steve Schroeder
Don't invest in them, hoping that your investment will bring a good return and they'll become a good friend. You need a good friend, and love them. And if there's a misunderstanding them, sometimes that's that's that's really hard. I don't I don't think anybody likes that. Nobody likes separation. Nobody likes divorce. Nobody likes those kind of things.

01;04;46;16 - 01;05;06;25
Steve Schroeder
But they do happen. But never stop loving. Never stop. It's the same, same thing about mature spiritual maturity. We look at leaders who have fallen, and we try to figure out why they fail. How do we avoid that in the past in in, in the future? And the Lord goes, well, who am I to you? And who are you becoming more like me?

01;05;06;25 - 01;05;16;26
Steve Schroeder
And are you facing me? You're really spending so much time in order, man. Amount of time trying to figure out what went wrong there. What about you?

01;05;16;27 - 01;05;17;19
Josh Hoffert
Right?

01;05;17;21 - 01;05;49;29
Steve Schroeder
Who am I in? And are you becoming more like me? And then the people around you will watch you as you're really. Paul's great. Great. I mean, if you had to see what's Paul's greatest statement ever, I mean, I don't know many that would say it isn't that I might know him. Right. Not that I got it, but I'm pressing on to the high to what he has apprehended me for and called me for the assignment.

01;05;49;29 - 01;06;20;07
Steve Schroeder
How well did I do with the assignment? It's. I'm pressing on because I've been seized by him, and I want to be like him. And, And, you know, it's like, how do we avoid, you know, church mess? I. Become like him, focus on him. You know, it's, don't get caught up in the work. Yeah, it's it's it's not always easy, though.

01;06;20;10 - 01;06;31;21
Steve Schroeder
Yeah. Know I'm grateful, Peter. I'm very grateful for my friends.

01;06;31;24 - 01;06;36;12
Steve Schroeder
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Me too.

01;06;36;14 - 01;07;03;06
Josh Hoffert
You you made a comment. You know, we were laughing about my, mis rendering of one of your favorite phrases. And, you like to say, and you, like said. You said you learned this from your father. When God speaks, he speaks like rain. He doesn't speak. It's spigots. And so for a long time I used to say that and I quote you and I have notes where I've written it out the.

01;07;03;10 - 01;07;21;19
Josh Hoffert
Yeah. Don't speak. When God speaks, he speaks. It's spigots all over the place. And I said that publicly multiple times when I was teaching. Steve Schroeder says this. It's a really good point. And somewhere in the ether, you know, someone thinks that that's what you said. Anyway.

01;07;21;21 - 01;07;42;05
Steve Schroeder
That's why you guys. But you that's why I said one day, I said memorize said book. Josh, I says, if you hear something from me and and you think it's great or whatever, fine, you know, use it and then use it again, but it needs to become yours, not just. Oh, Steve told me. So you're rendering this obviously, he speaks out of spigots everywhere now.

01;07;42;06 - 01;08;14;12
Josh Hoffert
Well, now I know. Now I've got it right and I can claim it as my own. But the one that was wrong, they all think you said, but what you said, you said one of the things that that helps to do is, And this is something I think you were quoting your dad in that is that, it it essentially buttresses when I understand that it buttresses us in our culture from being connected in, you know, a hub and spoke mentality like, oh, well, we can only go to this one person to hear or to listen.

01;08;14;17 - 01;08;37;15
Josh Hoffert
This is what it's got to be right. And so part of part of my the reason I bring that up is, what what you're saying isn't necessarily, it's not new. It's just another, you know, it's not like a new understanding of the Kingdom. But it's a much needed revisiting, you know, the revisiting of wineskins. Right?

01;08;37;18 - 01;08;54;29
Josh Hoffert
So what? Yeah. What part does that play where that kind of cultural understanding that God speaks like rain? Yeah. And I know that's part of your practice, is you like, listening for the sound. What is the father saying? And through multiple different people. My how does that play out.

01;08;54;29 - 01;09;07;02
Steve Schroeder
So my just for my dad's mentor shared it with him and he shared it with my dad, shared with me that God speaks. When he speaks, he speaks like rain, never out of his spigot.

01;09;07;05 - 01;09;10;19
Josh Hoffert
So there's apostolic succession to the to the right veracity.

01;09;10;20 - 01;09;12;11
Steve Schroeder
Yeah. And it also you.

01;09;12;14 - 01;09;13;18
Murray Dueck
Just the spigots succession.

01;09;13;22 - 01;09;40;23
Steve Schroeder
Yeah. You see it's brilliant in cults where the cult leader goes, I have the way and the truth and the life. Right. Come to me. Right. You know, it's he's a spigot. My dad and I, we learned this and that. The gospel needs to be the gospel in every corner of the world. The regardless of the culture. It's the sound of God's heart being expressed in whatever culture or language.

01;09;40;24 - 01;10;04;05
Steve Schroeder
It's it's it's. And and when he visits, he visits like rain. So when we go back to let's use, let's pull a, rabbit out of the bag and go, you know, there's lots of controversy over, you know, cessation is versus continue as, you know, where, you know, the gifts of the spirit and the, the expression of the of the spirit and whatnot is in the earth.

01;10;04;07 - 01;10;29;17
Steve Schroeder
And people would say, oh, that's a North American thing. And you go, no, the Desert Fathers had it and happens in Africa and happens in India from places where they they've had no concept of the teachings. Sure. But you see God speaking everywhere and, and and that's, you know, my throat that this misses when you preach the gospel in your, you know, let's say you share the gospel in your church and you do an altar call.

01;10;29;22 - 01;10;52;23
Steve Schroeder
It should be no different than a dump in India. Right. Same truth. It's not something new. It's true. And and the sound of God echoes all the earth. So we say it this way to that. You know, I was listening to, you know, Bill Johnson talk the other day and I go, man. But like, I was reading from my journal from, you know, 20 years ago, you go.

01;10;52;23 - 01;11;15;02
Steve Schroeder
Right. Well, it wasn't a Bill Johnson revelation. It was a God revelation to build John. Sure. And I had the same revelation. So whose is it? And and so that's where if you live below the line and it becomes political, you go, well, you're you're plagiarizing me for that sense rather than the truth of God. The God's released.

01;11;15;02 - 01;11;37;18
Steve Schroeder
And we want to celebrate and be joyful in the fact that God is being revealed in the earth and we're hearing it sound. It also helps me understand, you know, God, what am I hearing? Is this you? And then you, you hear it in other places and you go, you're speaking like rain. You are confirmed in your word in the earth.

01;11;37;21 - 01;12;12;01
Steve Schroeder
And therefore I recognize the validity of. Not only do I hear, but it's you. And there's some truth in that that even, you know, like, it all goes back, like rain comes from the source, from heaven. Revelation. And I think that sometimes we get our source wrong. I, I was sharing with someone the other day. I said, you know, they were telling me, you know, some train of thought in theology that they were talking about.

01;12;12;03 - 01;12;33;22
Steve Schroeder
And I went, I said, Lord, what's with that? And the words, that's all they have. Beaver fever like a beaver fever. Like, let's be what he goes. Yeah. He says beaver fever is when you pick up a parasite out of the water, you're drinking because there's either a dead animal upstream or that the animal has defecated in the stream and you're drinking from that stream.

01;12;33;22 - 01;12;50;06
Steve Schroeder
You're not drinking from the source. Oh, and I was like, oh, if beaver fever. So I hear, like I go, oh, that's just that's beaver fever. You're not you're not above the line. You're not drinking from the source. And revelation is all from the source, from him. Right. And that's why even with hub and spoke, we go back to that.

01;12;50;07 - 01;13;01;24
Steve Schroeder
People want to be the source. Come to me. Right. Tell you that. Right. God. And I have the revelation I have the corner on this and that's where you get weird. So I don't have that.

01;13;01;24 - 01;13;32;11
Josh Hoffert
Is like no it does because I, it will just made me think like the, the predominant conversation that have that that people have with you know, YouTube, YouTube channels and theologians and all that kind of stuff where it's my audience and it's curtailed to there ought to is my audience. And we go all, you know, Mike wingers on this or Justin Peters as this or the remnant radio guy said this or you know, it's.

01;13;32;11 - 01;13;34;18
Steve Schroeder
All for like.

01;13;34;18 - 01;13;41;12
Josh Hoffert
Just thinking about man, it's we only have a thought in relation to the person. Well yeah.

01;13;41;12 - 01;13;57;24
Steve Schroeder
That's it or or we have a thought we can monetize and therefore we need to curtail it so that the monetary comes that stream flows to right, right.

01;13;57;26 - 01;14;00;07
Josh Hoffert
Yeah. Man, we've got a lot of work to do.

01;14;00;09 - 01;14;25;12
Steve Schroeder
You know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The beauty though is that, that among among when there's an affection and a drawing among friends, we get to, you know, about them around. We get to put catch right and and hit the ball and we may strike out a few times, but we're in the game and we have the right to care about baseball because it's the World Series right now.

01;14;25;12 - 01;14;46;18
Steve Schroeder
You know, you got to love the game. Yeah, win or lose you know? Yeah, love the game. And that's, you know, love the father. Love love his you know love him more than you love his church. The reason David in in so many for it said, you know, I long for your for the house of the Lord because that's where God raised to him.

01;14;46;19 - 01;15;01;06
Steve Schroeder
Right, right. I want to be there where you are. God, I was one day in your house than a thousand elsewhere. Why? You're there right? You know, it's Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. Yeah.

01;15;01;08 - 01;15;18;12
Josh Hoffert
There's a, there's, phrase in the Desert Fathers or a question in the Desert Fathers when some people come to inquire of Anthony the Great, you know, they only offended the great part after he passed away and someone else called him that. So he never would call them so that they asked for obviously.

01;15;18;12 - 01;15;20;12
Steve Schroeder
He was like, yeah, yeah.

01;15;20;12 - 01;15;36;12
Josh Hoffert
Because, there's also John the Dwarf because he was short. So, you know, but they ask, well, hey, where's where's all the Anthony? And they said, wherever God is, that's where you'll find all the Anthony.

01;15;36;14 - 01;15;37;11
Steve Schroeder
But.

01;15;37;13 - 01;15;38;27
Josh Hoffert
Yeah, he's just with him.

01;15;38;29 - 01;15;41;28
Steve Schroeder
Yeah, yeah. And, and and he, you know.

01;15;41;28 - 01;15;58;23
Josh Hoffert
At one point he's asked, one of the disciples comes up to him and says, hey, I've asked more than you do. I pray more than you do. I live in solitude more than you do. But your name is greater than mine. Why is that? And Anthony shoots right back at him. Because I love God more than you.

01;15;58;26 - 01;16;06;05
Steve Schroeder
Oh. Why? Ouch! Yeah. Ouch. Well, you know, that's just it. It's it's.

01;16;06;07 - 01;16;11;06
Josh Hoffert
Well, as you're saying, it's just I want to be with him. I want to be near nearing its.

01;16;11;08 - 01;16;43;20
Steve Schroeder
This is. This is good. You know? Yeah. And my time with this, The church that I, one of the assignments I had was to establish a church in a town called Hope, and we had the acronym hope was he opens people's eyes and the long and short. That's where the story with the the building and the, you know, the the name on the building and the ladder and all came from.

01;16;43;23 - 01;17;16;07
Steve Schroeder
But the pastoral couple there, My friend Bruce and his wife, Janice. Janice just passed away in Friday of cancer. Oh, boy. And, and in December of 2023, the other pastoral couple, Gordon Sue Martin Gore, died of a brain aneurysm. So we had in ten months to, tragic deaths of the two pastoral couples in the church.

01;17;16;09 - 01;17;46;03
Steve Schroeder
And, I was with them in the hospital and spent time with them. Just they're just super dear to us. Very, very like family. And the Lord said, I want you to go up to Hope on Sunday not to preach, but just to stand next to your friend and be present and hear him sing and have him hear you sing.

01;17;46;06 - 01;18;30;04
Steve Schroeder
Worship to God that he words can't convey. What presence springs. You just need to be present. And I recognized, you know, in all of our great desire to understand the kingdom and leadership and all that, it were people of presence. And he just wants us to be present not only with him, but with one another. And I get to walk with you guys, like, you know, when we were at your place after the conference and walked your land and you scan the this my friends like, forget any of the stuff that's around it.

01;18;30;07 - 01;18;53;21
Steve Schroeder
It's, it was a joy just to be there and be present. Oh. Thank you. And, because we can get we can get caught up in stuff in the. You know, why did Janice die and what happened? And it's like, it's like job's friends job didn't need answers. You just needed people. Sit with them. You don't? Yeah. I don't want to figure this out.

01;18;53;21 - 01;19;35;08
Steve Schroeder
I don't need to figure this out. You know? And we spend a lot of time in our in our. It's because I sometimes when we want to figure it out, it's okay. But sometimes it's still about us. It's not about trusting in the one who is present with us. That when we're with him, it's okay. You know, and I think that, you know, even on this weekend, it was another great reminder, you know, because we look at the state of the world and we want to have answers and everything, and, and we have to go back to the promise that Jesus said, I will never leave you or forsake you.

01;19;35;11 - 01;20;01;27
Steve Schroeder
Yeah. No matter what this looks like. And I'm coming again for you to be not just for you. Like, like when, when when Janice died. Some of the sometimes was the prayer of you can go home now to be with Jesus and you realize what Jesus is in her. So he hasn't decided to leave yet, right? You know, and it's like there's this, you know, he's he's still present.

01;20;01;29 - 01;20;21;02
Steve Schroeder
And I'm, I'm just thankful for, being in an environment of church in the earth with my friends that are presence centered people, and we get to live that out. So I'm super grateful. That's awesome. Super grateful.

01;20;21;04 - 01;20;25;17
Josh Hoffert
Yeah. Well, we're grateful to Laura. I can't speak for Murray, but.

01;20;25;17 - 01;20;26;13
Murray Dueck
I am grateful to.

01;20;26;20 - 01;20;48;10
Josh Hoffert
Him. Yes. Yeah. Well, Steve, thanks so much for coming on to the podcast and just sharing your heart and talking about all these kind of things. It's it's an ongoing conversation. We're going, where are we going? Where's what's the father's speaking and what's he doing in the kingdom right now. And so we're so we're so appreciative of you making the time for us.

01;20;48;13 - 01;20;49;20
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Absolutely.

01;20;49;20 - 01;21;00;03
Josh Hoffert
Such it's such a great leader of men that oversees networks and all, you know, like has so many amazingly deep thoughts.

01;21;00;06 - 01;21;05;07
Steve Schroeder


01;21;05;09 - 01;21;08;29
Josh Hoffert
Yes. So, anyway, thanks everybody for tuning in.

01;21;09;00 - 01;21;19;10
Steve Schroeder
Man, that needs to use the washroom. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. Thanks, everybody, for tuning in. And, and some good stuff on.