Discovering Life in the Wilderness: an interview with Andrew Arndt Artwork

Voices from the Desert

In the early days of Christianity, men and women fled to the desert and became the wisest sages of their era. Voices from the Desert explores how the wisdom of Ancient Christianity applies to our modern world. Where do the streams of historic Christianity intersect with contemporary Christianity? And how do we come to know God deep in our heart? Join Joshua Hoffert and Murray Dueck for a deep dive into the mystics, union with God, patristic theology and what it all means in our modern world.

All Episodes

Voices from the Desert

Discovering Life in the Wilderness: an interview with Andrew Arndt

December 18, 2024 • Joshua Hoffert and Murray Dueck

This is the last podcast of the year folks and it is a doozy. Murray and Josh welcome a new friend, Andrew Arndt - someone like them. Andrew discovered the Desert Fathers while going through burnout and disaffection from the "Charismatic Church". What he discovered in the fathers and mothers of the 3rd and 4th century transformed his life, ministry, and his approach to leadership. So much so that he wrote a book about it: Streams in the Wasteland. Tune in as they dive into the practices and theories of the ancient monks and what they might say to us today.

For more about Andrew Arndt and to order his book visit: http://andrewarndt.com/

For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/

For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/

To donate to the Voices from the Desert podcast, visit this link and make a note using the "Special Instructions" option that the donation is towards Voices from the Desert: https://www.paypal.com/donate?token=qWPLXGRcDw5Ot45OWog1RoXQmcyzjHoB14nyO78BQ3mC1znnta9ehmP8P8DKoRT3Dv3Sr_58Y5qzGY49

00;00;15;28 - 00;00;35;19
Andrew Arndt
what I did not anticipate was how disorienting that was going to be for me on an existential level. So what is very strange is that on paper, you know, our church in Denver was, 4 or 500 people. It was never very prosperous. It did have an outsize kind of national.

00;00;35;21 - 00;00;42;12
Andrew Arndt
Platform for a number of reasons, like without us. But on paper, the move to new.

00;00;42;12 - 00;00;44;20
Andrew Arndt
Life is a promotion.

00;00;44;24 - 00;00;45;10
Andrew Arndt
Of every.

00;00;45;10 - 00;01;03;21
Andrew Arndt
Kind. You're going to make more money. It's a bigger platform, you know, like this church has a bigger reputation. There's more stability and probably a brighter future for you here. All that said, and I, I just didn't feel that way. To me, it was like being exiled.

00;01;03;23 - 00;01;17;12
Andrew Arndt
I was I was so lost. You.

00;01;17;15 - 00;01;22;28
Joshua Hoffert
Hey, everybody, and welcome to another episode of voices.

00;01;22;28 - 00;01;30;27
Andrew Arndt
From the deserts. Out. I'm.

00;01;30;29 - 00;01;35;15
Murray Dueck
You know, I did that, okay? Because the sheepdog here perked up and looked right at that.

00;01;35;17 - 00;01;37;28
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, I thought you put them outside of there. Right in there with.

00;01;37;28 - 00;01;44;00
Murray Dueck
You know, they came back. They did. I look at it. Make it man. So a they like that one. That's good. Right.

00;01;44;00 - 00;02;07;03
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Well there's probably, there's probably actually no. What my big experience today having ribs kind of related to coyotes as I, I dropped my wife off at a meeting and when I picked her up with the kids after school, a little fox walked out from the amidst the trees and just sat on the road right behind our car.

00;02;07;07 - 00;02;14;04
Joshua Hoffert
I have about 30 pictures and we come to find out the person she was meeting with has been feeding the fox.

00;02;14;06 - 00;02;14;23
Andrew Arndt
Oh yeah.

00;02;14;23 - 00;02;30;03
Joshua Hoffert
And so one of my kids handed the fox an egg. It came up and it was quite the experience. So, yeah, Pi is a land of foxes. That's, so, you know, a G. But I guess that's coyote adjacent. But so big of.

00;02;30;08 - 00;02;33;15
Murray Dueck
We're trying. We're trying to make our land a land of without fox.

00;02;33;15 - 00;02;41;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. That's a big it's a big difference for you, Murray, than it is. Yes. You wouldn't want to feed the foxes. These are tiny little guys. They're cute, you know.

00;02;41;16 - 00;02;41;29
Murray Dueck
Oh that's.

00;02;41;29 - 00;02;46;21
Joshua Hoffert
Cool. It does beg the question. What does the fox say? I guess, we'll get our popcorn.

00;02;46;22 - 00;02;48;19
Murray Dueck
You don't even want to know. Really?

00;02;48;21 - 00;02;48;27
Andrew Arndt

00;02;49;04 - 00;03;15;09
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Yeah. So, well, we have we have, a new friend as a guest today, and, we've, we've had, kind of a, for those of you that have been wondering why we haven't had any episodes recently, in the last couple weeks. Well, we're taking a bit of a break for the holiday season. And we thought, well, we've got we've got one scheduled right in the midst of this.

00;03;15;09 - 00;03;32;21
Joshua Hoffert
And, you know, this is an exciting one. And so I'm going to turn it over to Murray. Murray, you can maybe frame a little bit what we're hoping to talk about today, and then we'll introduce our guests. So, Murray, what are your thoughts about the today's episode?

00;03;32;24 - 00;03;39;26
Murray Dueck
Well, everyone, you know, just thinking about our journey, I it's, And knowing we.

00;03;39;26 - 00;03;42;02
Joshua Hoffert
Found someone like us.

00;03;42;04 - 00;03;43;03
Andrew Arndt
Yes.

00;03;43;06 - 00;04;00;29
Murray Dueck
That's exactly where I was going with that. You know, for all two of our listeners, you're actually are listening to this. No, that's not true. It's interesting how many people seem to be on a journey of discovering the Desert Fathers. And the reason that's important is. And, you know, we just talked a little bit about Andrew with this.

00;04;00;29 - 00;04;28;10
Murray Dueck
I'm looking forward to getting his journey, is that there's our good friend of ours who we would consider kind of our spiritual father always says, if God saying something one place, he's saying it everywhere. His voice is like rain. It falls everywhere. Yeah. And if the Lord's doing it, you can find it everywhere. And and I think that's a good illustration for today, Andrew, that we found you hearing and doing the same thing as an echo or vice versa of, of what we're doing.

00;04;28;17 - 00;04;53;13
Murray Dueck
And this is going on in like people's lives everywhere, especially charismatics who are going, you know what? Something's missing. And there is this journey and we're meeting people. And then we go you to really you to and and find your tribe. I always think is is such a a beautiful thing because you're finding the same fingerprints of Jesus and the find that means something's afoot.

00;04;53;13 - 00;05;13;09
Murray Dueck
There's a journey going on here. There's breadcrumbs. So you're our crumb man. We appreciate that. So I'm. I'm just looking forward, everybody, for you to come with us on this journey and just again hear what the Lord's doing in regards the ancient church making it alive today all over the place. So come with us. It'll be good.

00;05;13;14 - 00;05;18;10
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. So this is, Andrew. Aren't that how you say it, Arndt?

00;05;18;13 - 00;05;19;08
Andrew Arndt
Yes, sir.

00;05;19;10 - 00;05;22;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that d in there kind of throws me off a little bit when.

00;05;22;22 - 00;05;26;22
Andrew Arndt
People struggle with it. It's. It's more consonants than we're used to seeing in a row.

00;05;26;22 - 00;05;28;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. Yeah. That's right. Yeah.

00;05;28;07 - 00;05;29;01
Andrew Arndt
We don't know what to do.

00;05;29;02 - 00;05;30;06
Joshua Hoffert
I think ardent.

00;05;30;09 - 00;05;32;21
Murray Dueck
You could be a minute. I aren't I think we've got some of those.

00;05;32;27 - 00;05;34;12
Andrew Arndt
Yeah, I do, yeah.

00;05;34;14 - 00;05;40;07
Joshua Hoffert
Murray, can you had to change the spelling of your last name just to get away with being a Christian minister, right?

00;05;40;09 - 00;05;42;05
Murray Dueck
I did you want to get into there?

00;05;42;05 - 00;05;44;23
Andrew Arndt
I get it, That's it.

00;05;44;23 - 00;05;47;01
Joshua Hoffert
Episode another time.

00;05;47;04 - 00;05;49;13
Andrew Arndt
That's right. Yeah. I needed inner healing.

00;05;49;20 - 00;05;52;18
Andrew Arndt
My not mine is an old German name. It used to be.

00;05;52;18 - 00;05;53;20
Andrew Arndt
Accurate.

00;05;53;23 - 00;06;04;11
Andrew Arndt
And I think we go talk about struggling with the D. They struggled with the hack and the devil. So they got rid of all that stuff and shrank it down. And did it make it better?

00;06;04;14 - 00;06;05;21
Joshua Hoffert
Well, see, I think the.

00;06;05;23 - 00;06;06;18
Andrew Arndt
The jury's out.

00;06;06;23 - 00;06;07;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. The jury.

00;06;07;15 - 00;06;18;25
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I hear yeah, I hear mine use mine's du EQ now doing, but supposedly at one time it might have been duck with the two dots over the you. Right. So it would have been.

00;06;18;25 - 00;06;21;14
Andrew Arndt
Did you get headache?

00;06;21;18 - 00;06;23;00
Murray Dueck
Of course. Nobody can pronounce that.

00;06;23;00 - 00;06;25;24
Andrew Arndt
And you go off that. Man, this doesn't.

00;06;25;27 - 00;06;27;02
Joshua Hoffert
Really go over very well when.

00;06;27;02 - 00;06;28;07
Murray Dueck
They got proper German.

00;06;28;07 - 00;06;28;22
Andrew Arndt
That's funny.

00;06;28;22 - 00;06;34;01
Joshua Hoffert
When they when they introduce Reverend Dick to speak. Now he just doesn't go over very well.

00;06;34;01 - 00;06;35;07
Andrew Arndt
So. No, no.

00;06;35;13 - 00;06;36;25
Murray Dueck
Well you see where that's going already.

00;06;36;25 - 00;06;38;20
Andrew Arndt
You it. Yeah. That's right. Yes.

00;06;38;22 - 00;06;41;03
Andrew Arndt
And in the age of church scandal we just don't need anymore.

00;06;41;03 - 00;06;42;07
Joshua Hoffert
We just don't need anymore.

00;06;42;08 - 00;06;49;24
Andrew Arndt
I mean, we got a new one every day on the church bulletin board. I was like, yeah, yeah, man.

00;06;49;25 - 00;06;51;05
Joshua Hoffert
So Andrew is.

00;06;51;06 - 00;06;53;08
Murray Dueck
Back to do it. Yeah. Back you did.

00;06;53;15 - 00;07;37;12
Joshua Hoffert
Andrew has an interesting journey. He was sharing with us before, about the church. He's presently, on the executive pastor team, executive team, pastoring one of the, the campuses is in Colorado Springs. And so there's a whole journey there as well, and a and a story there. But, what attracted me to Andrew in the first place was, the I had was listening in on a, it was an online course or an online event, and it was a short end or maybe a 45 minute interview talking about, really going over some of the principles in your book and, and, and, but looking at the Desert Fathers and now actually,

00;07;37;12 - 00;07;56;21
Joshua Hoffert
I kind of listed through all the presenters and my public confession and honesty, and I think yours was the only one I listened to. I looked, oh, the desert finally got a guy talking about that as her father, Sarah, was into that. And, and the other there was other good ones and other good presenters, but yours was the one that attracted me.

00;07;56;21 - 00;08;13;18
Joshua Hoffert
And so I was listening to it and going, oh, man, I should reach out to this guy. And so it turns out you had written a book just a couple of years prior called streams in the wasteland. I think you can see in the background there, you've got a, poster about that. And I've been I haven't gotten through the whole book.

00;08;13;18 - 00;08;35;09
Joshua Hoffert
I've been making my way through it. And I was going, this guy's got a journey and a story to tell. And, so, so I reached out to Andrew and said, hey, let's see if we can get him on the podcast. And he's speaking our language. And we've been doing this for marine. I've been doing this for two and a half years now, two years, two and a half years now.

00;08;35;11 - 00;08;50;28
Joshua Hoffert
We've gone through the, looking at the Desert Fathers, looking at the teachings, looking at individual, and we've had, we've had, we have a great or Orthodox priest friend that we have come on here to correct all of our theology. Oh, you'd like him?

00;08;51;00 - 00;08;51;17
Andrew Arndt
Yeah, I bet.

00;08;51;22 - 00;08;52;13
Murray Dueck
He's a good guy.

00;08;52;14 - 00;09;10;26
Joshua Hoffert
We've we've been we've dove into Theosophists and. Oh, God. Bridal paradigm in the early church, in the early church writers and all that stuff. So he's Andrew speaking our language. And so it's like we got to have this guy on here. And so, Andrew, without further ado, you know, I've, I've, I've made people think very highly of you.

00;09;10;26 - 00;09;12;23
Joshua Hoffert
So please don't disappoint them or disappoint.

00;09;12;24 - 00;09;14;13
Murray Dueck
And you know what? As you get.

00;09;14;13 - 00;09;20;02
Andrew Arndt
Started, I'll try to love your book. I want to try to. And then that's very that's that would be very dessert.

00;09;20;02 - 00;09;20;19
Joshua Hoffert
Father.

00;09;20;22 - 00;09;23;16
Andrew Arndt
Exceed our expectations. It would be very dessert, father.

00;09;23;16 - 00;09;38;14
Joshua Hoffert
It would, I would yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. So. So tell us a little, just a little bit about yourself and then you know what, what you're presently doing. Yeah. And then we'll, you know what? In different things like your what websites people can go to find and.

00;09;38;14 - 00;09;39;15
Murray Dueck
What your book tell.

00;09;39;17 - 00;09;45;11
Joshua Hoffert
A little about the book too. And then we'll dive into Murray's got a big banger question right off the bat. Yeah.

00;09;45;13 - 00;09;55;25
Andrew Arndt
Well a grateful to be on the podcast. And so I'm super grateful that we got introduced to one another. I was not aware of the work that you guys were doing. So like I was telling.

00;09;55;26 - 00;09;57;22
Joshua Hoffert
Not many people are because we're.

00;09;57;29 - 00;09;58;20
Andrew Arndt
You know.

00;09;58;23 - 00;10;01;19
Joshua Hoffert
It's hard to promote yourselves when you follow the desperate of authors.

00;10;01;19 - 00;10;05;11
Andrew Arndt
So, yeah. How did Henry now once and sell all of those books.

00;10;05;11 - 00;10;07;26
Andrew Arndt
About the about. Oh that's correct. Yeah.

00;10;07;28 - 00;10;12;28
Andrew Arndt
That's there's an abiding conundrum. I think it's just that Henry now and could write about anything.

00;10;13;01 - 00;10;14;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. That's true, that's true.

00;10;14;24 - 00;10;16;03
Andrew Arndt
Yeah.

00;10;16;05 - 00;10;34;17
Andrew Arndt
But I'm grateful to I can't wait to listen to more of your episodes and hear what you guys are talking about. And you probably have as much to teach me as I have to share with you guys. But the Desert Fathers and mothers definitely have been really important to me. So, brief flyby on my sort of biography.

00;10;34;17 - 00;11;05;16
Andrew Arndt
And that might set the stage for the question that Murray wants to ask. But I'm 43. I'm born and raised, in the charismatic, non-denominational world. My parents, were Lutheran, you know, cradle Lutherans and came from a long line of cradle Lutherans. And then when the Charismatic Renewal swept through our country in the 60s, in the 70s, their faith was not a vibrant faith by any stretch.

00;11;05;16 - 00;11;33;22
Andrew Arndt
I don't know that they really had a personal relationship with Jesus, and this charismatic renewal thing happened, and it it just awaken them to, oh, God, not as an idea, but God as the living source of all that is. You know. Right. Which is honestly, actually in the in the years that I've sojourned with the Lord, I think that's how I've come to define the charismatic intuition at its core.

00;11;33;25 - 00;11;45;15
Andrew Arndt
It's like God is not an idea, and we're not living in the memory of a dead god. You know, like God is alive. He's real. Anything can happen. Stick. Stay on your toes. You know, that.

00;11;45;15 - 00;11;46;24
Andrew Arndt
Kind of thing. But that.

00;11;46;29 - 00;12;08;04
Andrew Arndt
That that was that experience that they had. I think it was in the 70s when they really met the Lord. They began meeting in the basement of a Catholic church with some friends of theirs for prayer. And the spirit moved on them. And the group grew and eventually they planted a church out of that. So that was the I was the context that I was raised in.

00;12;08;04 - 00;12;39;29
Andrew Arndt
Wow was this charismatic church that was honestly, it was really pure hearted. It also had pretty good, and this I didn't realize until years later, but it had pretty good doctrinal foundations because they had all been catechesis, prayer, you know what I mean? So they were all coming in as Lutherans and Catholics, and even though they were kind of giving the arm bar to their to the church of their upbringing, the deep substructure of the faith was still there.

00;12;40;01 - 00;13;03;03
Andrew Arndt
So even though we were singing, you know, all of the charismatic camp tunes, you know, I can run through a troupe and leap over a wall. We were also singing Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty, you know, right there early in the all of that, you know, singing songs to the Trinity and, and all of that. So it was there, but I did and this is important part of my story, I think.

00;13;03;03 - 00;13;21;26
Andrew Arndt
And Walter Brueggemann, the great Old Testament scholar, said that any community that wants to exist beyond a single generation has to can commit itself to the work of teaching. And so one of the things that the church in my upbringing didn't do a good job of was like making explicit that deep substructure of the faith.

00;13;21;28 - 00;13;22;20
Joshua Hoffert
Sure.

00;13;22;23 - 00;13;37;13
Andrew Arndt
And so we were we were so much of it was just kind of the subjectivity of the spirit. And when I left that church, I went to Oral Roberts University in Tulsa, Oklahoma, which for me was like an epicenter of charismatic Christianity.

00;13;37;13 - 00;13;38;15
Murray Dueck
I know for sure.

00;13;38;15 - 00;14;02;01
Andrew Arndt
And it was during our use, I think they were, oh, I use Darkest Years. I just the wheels were coming off of leadership, financial mismanagement everywhere, but also just stupid doctrine being taught and the chapel services. I just remember they were like celebrations of heresy, but there was nobody in the room, outside of those that were in like the Bible and theology department, but they couldn't raise their voices loud enough to really be heard and to check that in.

00;14;02;01 - 00;14;02;07
Andrew Arndt
Paul.

00;14;02;07 - 00;14;03;17
Andrew Arndt
Sure.

00;14;03;19 - 00;14;18;05
Andrew Arndt
And I remember thinking at that point, I was a business student there who felt called to ministry and kind of knew I was going to go on to study theology. I remember thinking, oh, if this is what Charismatic Christianity is, I can't have anything to do with it.

00;14;18;08 - 00;14;19;19
Andrew Arndt

00;14;21;02 - 00;14;50;24
Andrew Arndt
And honestly, like when I went to seminary, I went to seminary in Chicago, went to Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, God Reformed Seminary in the Upper Midwest. And I remember walking into that just being like, If the Holy Spirit, I'm going to read the Bible and study church history. And if the Holy Spirit is a real thing that I can defend biblically and theologically, and the charismatic experience is a real thing that I can defend biblically and theologically, sign me up for it.

00;14;50;24 - 00;15;18;02
Andrew Arndt
But if not, I want Jesus, I want God, I want the truth, right? And I'm so I'll let go of all that other stuff. And so I held that real. I held my charismatic roots very lightly for like a year. And then I had this profound experience. I was working on a paper for one of my New Testament classes, and I was reading some crusty old bit of Dutch Reformed theology.

00;15;18;04 - 00;15;18;21
Murray Dueck
Oh, boy.

00;15;18;26 - 00;15;50;13
Andrew Arndt
And it was. It was Gearhart, as Vos. And he said something crazy. And, this is going to it's going to sound ridiculous to you that I know this quote, but I only know it because it was it left such an impact on me and it honestly changed my life. He said that the proper sphere of the sphere of the spirit is the future eon, and from thence he projects himself into the present and becomes a prophecy of himself and his eschatological operations.

00;15;50;16 - 00;15;53;26
Joshua Hoffert
And basically and he writes theology right there.

00;15;53;28 - 00;15;58;15
Andrew Arndt
That's like in a nutshell. Totally. Yeah. But I've read.

00;15;58;15 - 00;16;23;08
Andrew Arndt
That, and I was like, it suddenly clicked. Yeah. I was like, wait, what is the spirit? The Creed says that the spirit is the Lord, the giver of life. The fullness of the life of God exists in this future that God is bringing. And what the experience of the spirit is now is a taste of the life of God ahead of time that helps pull us into the future and pull the future into us.

00;16;23;08 - 00;16;37;28
Andrew Arndt
Until finally there's a convergence between right, heaven and earth. And so the implication was immediate for me was like, there's no way to participate in the future that God has for us unless we say yes to all that the Holy Spirit is and has.

00;16;38;01 - 00;16;41;01
Andrew Arndt
And I mean to talk.

00;16;41;01 - 00;16;42;10
Andrew Arndt
About a life changing moment.

00;16;42;15 - 00;16;43;15
Andrew Arndt
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;16;43;19 - 00;17;05;17
Andrew Arndt
And so what I realized in that moment was that I could have my charismatic background. But what I didn't need to have was all of the other baloney that went with it. And so that was I was probably 22 or 23 at that time. And so a lot of my experience since then has been kind of like a how do I hold on to the core intuitions?

00;17;05;19 - 00;17;29;09
Andrew Arndt
How do I stay close to what the scriptures and the best of church history has taught us about the Holy Spirit, while stripping away all of this stuff that's not of the spirit, that's of the flesh, you know, blah blah, blah, to try to come up with a pure form, of charismatic Christianity. So then the upshot of all of that was realizing that that theology was a good friend of the charismatic experience.

00;17;29;11 - 00;17;50;23
Andrew Arndt
It could actually help. That's a it was actually it could actually help deepen our conviction about what the spirit does. And then I think another thing that kind of happened in that same season was that I realized that one of the ways that we embody theology is by liturgy. So our convictions about who God is as father, son, and Holy Spirit.

00;17;50;26 - 00;18;11;25
Andrew Arndt
One of the ways that we institutionalize those things is through our worship together. And so if you want to really take this fire of the spirit and contain is the wrong word, but I think you know what I mean. Put it inside a structure where it can be really life giving and helpful rather than destructive in the ways that had been destructive in my past.

00;18;11;27 - 00;18;32;29
Andrew Arndt
You need a theology, and you kind of you needed a sensibility about how worship should go. And that was like, that happened at the perfect time for me, because I'm preparing for ministry and trying to figure out how do you how do you do church? What does it look like to lead God's people, especially in an increasingly secular age, post-Christian environment?

00;18;33;01 - 00;18;53;10
Andrew Arndt
You know, Charles Taylor has talked about this is like the age of like people are disenchanted, you know, the sacred canopy has like closed in on them. They can't there's this hunger and thirst. So what does it look like to embody the church in an age like that? So I left seminary at 23. That was back in a lot of, you know, 2006.

00;18;53;13 - 00;19;16;21
Andrew Arndt
And, I served as an associate pastor at a church in Oklahoma for a little bit, kind of working out some of these ideas went on to plant a church with some friends in Denver in 2009, which was a really cool experience. I did that for eight years, and we really that was like an opportunity to put like the best of our convictions about what the church could be like in flesh there.

00;19;16;24 - 00;19;44;13
Andrew Arndt
And so we were we called ourselves like a, a charismatic, charismatic, justice driven, liturgical, neo monastic network of house churches, blah, blah, blah. I was like, all the best things that we could think of, right, for the church. And what was neat was that it resonated with people like it kind of works. We had sort of created a way of doing discipleship information and mission together that made sense to people that were otherwise a little bit disenfranchized with the church.

00;19;44;13 - 00;20;04;25
Andrew Arndt
So that was cool. I did that for eight years. We felt like there's a long story there, so I'm sure we'll get into. But the Lord, we felt like the Lord is like leading us to lay that down. And then we came. We were invited by by some friends to join the staff of New Life Church here in Colorado Springs, which is very bizarre for me because I never expected to be here.

00;20;04;27 - 00;20;30;18
Andrew Arndt
But New Life Church was kind of part of new Life. Church is one of the main institutions in my charismatic world. When I was a kid, Wow and New Life's founding pastor used to come up and preach at our church when I was a kid. And so to be here as the sort of, sort of rebel Reve built, transformed version of charismatic Christian that I am is really bizarre to me.

00;20;30;18 - 00;21;06;09
Andrew Arndt
Yeah, it's a very weird. It's a it's the full circle moment that I'd kind of never expected to happen. Right. But has happened. And New life, a non-denominational, charismatic church is the kind of church somehow by this extravagant work of God's Spirit and mercy is a church that can contain this kind of sacramental awareness, a great tradition sensibility about how to be charismatic and, and then somehow one of its pastors is also a guy who's really into the desert folk, you know, like, really into mockery.

00;21;06;11 - 00;21;25;13
Andrew Arndt
And so somehow that somehow that works here, and I'm really grateful for that. So I do like you said, I serve on our senior executive team here. And then I also lead we planted a new congregation, a new life church on the east side of our city. So I lead New life East, and that's the congregation of the, you know, 4 or 500 people.

00;21;25;16 - 00;21;30;02
Andrew Arndt
And, and they're wonderful and we're loving life, so.

00;21;30;03 - 00;21;30;24
Murray Dueck
Oh, wonderful.

00;21;30;29 - 00;21;46;05
Andrew Arndt
Yeah. So we're we're. Yeah, we're in a good spot. I've been married to my wife for 24 years to celebrate 24 years. We have four teenagers. And, so there's not a, there's, there's no there's no moment of our day that is unaccounted for.

00;21;46;05 - 00;21;49;09
Joshua Hoffert
I'll just. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;21;49;11 - 00;21;52;24
Andrew Arndt
Yes. Yeah, we get that.

00;21;52;24 - 00;22;17;17
Joshua Hoffert
We actually just as a, the to complete the circle fully for you, we had a, the church that we serve at, here in P.E.I., we had a lady on staff, who was from Denver and went to New Life. And, I'm just remembering that now. Actually, I was on staff. She was. She was our office admin.

00;22;17;20 - 00;22;39;28
Joshua Hoffert
Wow. And spoke very highly of the church back there. So small world. Yeah. That's, I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right. Jean was down there and went to that. I remember that now. So anyway, there you go. So yeah, that's what they, you know, when, when you meet enough people that are in Canada, I can't say I'm Canadian, but you, you meet enough people that are in Canada and you realize Canada operates like one small it's like a small town.

00;22;40;05 - 00;22;43;03
Andrew Arndt
So that's pretty much Canada for you.

00;22;43;06 - 00;22;43;24
Andrew Arndt
Amazing.

00;22;44;02 - 00;22;46;05
Joshua Hoffert
There's Canadians everywhere.

00;22;46;07 - 00;22;47;01
Andrew Arndt
Yeah. Well, let.

00;22;47;01 - 00;23;16;24
Murray Dueck
Me ask you one question about what you shared. I'm just curious. So I mean, just start up growing up with this group and then go through everything you have and find this incredible love of the desert Fathers and end up being right back there. What what what strikes me is really cool. What strikes me as weird, because now you're seeing it through a different pair of eyes, like, do you ever think to yourself, man, if I could go back to my younger self here when I was here back in the day, I would grab myself and I tell myself this.

00;23;16;26 - 00;23;18;08
Murray Dueck
Yeah, you ever you everything.

00;23;18;10 - 00;23;45;05
Andrew Arndt
I wouldn't, I wouldn't change anything. I, I had to go through what I went through. Yeah. To become who I needed to become. And honestly, the desert fathers and mothers would not have meant anything really to me. At 16, 17, 18. I just didn't I don't know, I think the spirit has to create an appetite. It has to hit you at the right, right moment.

00;23;45;08 - 00;24;03;14
Andrew Arndt
And they hit me at the right moment. They hit me at a crisis point in my life where I was not sure who I was anymore, and I wasn't sure what I was supposed to do. And all of a sudden, these folks from 1700 years ago kind of wandered up beside me and they went, oh, you look a little lost.

00;24;03;16 - 00;24;04;14
Andrew Arndt
We can.

00;24;04;17 - 00;24;05;07
Murray Dueck
Let's hear that.

00;24;05;07 - 00;24;05;23
Andrew Arndt
Story.

00;24;05;24 - 00;24;06;05
Andrew Arndt
Yeah.

00;24;06;11 - 00;24;08;11
Murray Dueck
So that would be great.

00;24;08;14 - 00;24;35;16
Andrew Arndt
So the timing is the important thing. So I mentioned that I started helping with that church in Denver in 2009. And at that time I was 28 and, constantly looking for friends and ministry, trying to figure out what my identity as a pastor was and who are the voices that resonate with me. And very quickly, I mean, right, obviously.

00;24;35;16 - 00;25;03;29
Andrew Arndt
And Walter Brueggemann kind of on the biblical side, Bonhoeffer on the theological side. And some Bart was kind of making sense to me. But then, like on the pastoral side, it was like Eugene Peterson. I was reading a lot of Eugene, of course, some of the Ren Avari guys, Dallas Willard and Richard Foster. But Eugene was really resonating with me and Henry now and was really resonating with me, as he has for so many of us.

00;25;04;01 - 00;25;27;13
Andrew Arndt
And so I knew now and stuff inside and out. I knew the way of the heart, which I'm sure you guys have talked about. That's Desert Fathers solitude, Silent prayer. I resonated with it, I loved it, I taught on it, but still they were not. They didn't. The the desert folk did not connect with me as deeply as they were going to at that point, because I hadn't been through the crisis that I needed to go through.

00;25;27;13 - 00;25;57;15
Andrew Arndt
And the crisis was we went through a leadership, situation in our church in 2014 that was very difficult and very complicated. And, we don't need to get into that, that story at all. But it's set in motion, a series of dynamics at that church that, eventuated in us feeling like in 2016 and 2017 that it was time for us to step away from the church.

00;25;57;18 - 00;26;21;06
Andrew Arndt
And not because there was any brokenness in the relationship. It was just sort of one of those things where you're like, you can see the hand of God on it, like, this is happening right now. Can you admit that this is happening and just go with it? You know, and what was really difficult about that for me was that when we moved out to the to Denver in 2009, I, was a useful ignorance.

00;26;21;06 - 00;26;41;27
Andrew Arndt
What was it was an ambition I don't or was it a good heart? I don't know, but I just remember thinking, I'm 28, I want to do this for 30 years. 30 years was kind of a symbolic number for me of like an adult work, a life work. And then I'm going to ride off into the sunset. I'm going to retire at 60 or whatever, and kind of be the old fart wandering around here.

00;26;41;27 - 00;27;09;11
Andrew Arndt
And that that was like a dream scenario for me. And so 2829 3031 the church is rounding into shape. It's starting to do well. And I loved being that guy. I loved being the guy who walked into a room and could say, like, I pastor that church. And people were like, oh, you pastor that church, the neo, you know, the neo monastic, charismatic liturgical justice, blah blah blah, and, you know, all of that.

00;27;09;11 - 00;27;32;10
Andrew Arndt
They just thought it was cool and I felt cool again. I had something to talk about. And at that age, yeah, you're in that age of needing to prove yourself. So it felt like, I'm doing it. I'm doing what I'm supposed to do as an adult. You know? I'm succeeding. I'm winning. This is great. And when that all gets stripped away.

00;27;32;13 - 00;27;55;10
Andrew Arndt
Yeah, well, what do you do? And even though we knew that the Lord was leading us here to new life, what I did not anticipate was how disorienting that was going to be for me on an existential level. So what is very strange is that on paper, anyway, you know, our church in Denver was, 4 or 500 people.

00;27;55;12 - 00;28;19;26
Andrew Arndt
It was never very prosperous. It did have an outsize kind of national platform for a number of reasons, like people kind of knew about us. But on paper, the move to new life is a promotion of every kind. You're going to make more money. It's a bigger platform, you know, like this church has a bigger reputation, there's more stability.

00;28;19;26 - 00;28;42;24
Andrew Arndt
There's probably a brighter future for you here, all that stuff. And I, I just didn't feel that way. To me, it was like being exiled in Paradise and I was I was so lost. I didn't know who I was anymore. I didn't know what my life work was supposed to be. I just I just didn't know it. It was like a comprehensive existential stripping.

00;28;42;26 - 00;29;11;14
Andrew Arndt
And I was so lost in that season. And somebody said to me, well, you need to read The Desert Fathers and Mothers. And I was like, well, I know the Desert Fathers and mothers. And they were like, no, you don't. You haven't really read them. I was like, well, why do I need to read them? And it was basically like the person was like, the thing that you're trying so hard to avoid, they ran to, you're running away from it, the stripping away like you're struggling so badly.

00;29;11;17 - 00;29;29;05
Andrew Arndt
They sought this experience out and they saw that it was a sure pathway to God. And I went, okay, you got me. And so I've told a lot of people that I, I didn't know any of the other thing to do. So I picked up Benedict Awards alphabetical collection of this.

00;29;29;07 - 00;29;30;08
Andrew Arndt
Yes.

00;29;30;10 - 00;29;57;17
Andrew Arndt
And I just started reading them devotional, and I would finish reading the scriptures in the morning, and then I would pull out her book and I would start reading through it. And what they did is they helped me know not only that, like, they help me know not only that I was going to be okay. They also help me know that they, like, gave me a new language, even for defining what okay ness meant.

00;29;57;19 - 00;30;06;29
Andrew Arndt
And I think up to that point, okay, ness was like, hey, you're going to get through this and everything is going to go back to normal. And they were like, no dummy.

00;30;07;02 - 00;30;07;23
Andrew Arndt
Okay.

00;30;07;25 - 00;30;23;23
Andrew Arndt
Okay, this is not. It's not everything going back to normal, okay? Ness is dying with Jesus. Yeah. And being totally transformed by that. So resurrection.

00;30;23;23 - 00;30;27;24
Joshua Hoffert
Which all blows that no dummy.

00;30;27;26 - 00;30;31;05
Andrew Arndt
ABBA. Andrew. Yeah. That's right.

00;30;31;07 - 00;30;35;17
Andrew Arndt
The entire tradition, you know, like resurrection is not.

00;30;35;19 - 00;30;36;08
Andrew Arndt
Not.

00;30;36;10 - 00;31;00;13
Andrew Arndt
Resurrection is not resuscitation, right? Resurrection is death. And you get pulled into a whole new mode of being as the dead person that you have become through the experience. So what started happening as I read them was that they just gave me language. I and in streams in the wasteland here, I called them Cartographers of Holiness for me.

00;31;00;15 - 00;31;01;16
Andrew Arndt
They gave me a they.

00;31;01;16 - 00;31;27;04
Andrew Arndt
Gave me, like, language for mapping out what a new kind of holiness might look like in my life. And, so I found them to be really delightful friends. And then I think the other thing that they did for me, which led to the writing the book, was I started seeing where they are actually putting their finger on a number of pathologies that are still existent in our culture, and they're offering solutions for those things.

00;31;27;04 - 00;31;43;05
Andrew Arndt
So to they're talking to us about how to live in a way that's more humane. So I found my what was weird was that as I started sort of ingesting their sayings, all of a sudden I was pastoring out of there saying to other people, so I would just find myself being like, well, you know, they'd be sharing something that they were going through.

00;31;43;05 - 00;32;13;24
Andrew Arndt
I'd be like, oh yeah, well, it's like ABBA so-and-so says blah, blah, blah, blah blah. So have you ever considered and and something in that kind of aphoristic quality of how they talk, that kind of like proverbial bang, they just say a thing that kind of flashes a strobe light on some element of your existence. They were helping me do that with my people and throwing open possibilities in their own experiences, suffering and doubt and deconstruction even that would otherwise have not really been available.

00;32;13;24 - 00;32;47;01
Andrew Arndt
So, I don't know, Murray, if that at all answers your question, but I, I do wonder if the timing thing was so critical for me. I just couldn't of receive them at 18 and even at 32, they weren't as meaningful to me as they were going to be. Right. And I think it's not until you come to that moment where everything is being torn away there, then you're really positioned, you know, to meet somebody like amazing Cleric who says, well, you know, I put my foot on the ladder and you know what I mean?

00;32;47;01 - 00;32;47;19
Andrew Arndt
And she's talking about.

00;32;47;19 - 00;32;49;20
Andrew Arndt
That before I keep.

00;32;49;20 - 00;33;07;28
Andrew Arndt
Death before my eyes at all times. And you go, oh, shoot. Like the ladder is like Jacob's ladder. Angels descending, ascending and descending. But it's about death. It's about dying. It's about letting go. So but you have to be in that place almost, where life kind of forces you into it before you can really receive it.

00;33;08;05 - 00;33;43;11
Joshua Hoffert
So I remember one of the first, I think, the first contemplative book I read, and I would have been maybe 26, 27. So I'm 43 as well. We were involved with a, ministry called Streams Ministries teacher, prophetic type, John Paul Jackson. Some of the people know who that is. And he, he'd make reference to, actually in the introduction to one of his courses, he talks about being formed by the Desert Fathers, although he never quoted them once, which I thought was funny.

00;33;43;14 - 00;33;56;13
Joshua Hoffert
But there's a section in one of the courses I end up I ended up I taught those courses for about ten years and was deeply involved in the ministry. There's a there's a section on the dark night of the soul.

00;33;56;15 - 00;33;57;09
Andrew Arndt
Yeah.

00;33;57;11 - 00;34;17;18
Joshua Hoffert
And so I, you know, and there was a few quotes from John of the cross, but I, I was, I, I'd hear him talk about it, I go through the notes and I the way my brain I discovered the way my brain likes to work is I don't want to know what you think about this concept. I want to know what the guy who wrote about the concept said about the concept right?

00;34;17;21 - 00;34;24;02
Joshua Hoffert
So I bought a copy of The Dark Night of the soul, and that was the first book I read.

00;34;24;04 - 00;34;24;21
Andrew Arndt
Wow.

00;34;24;23 - 00;34;33;21
Joshua Hoffert
And the second one I read was, Teresa, Teresa of Avila was about the interior, not interior mansions.

00;34;33;24 - 00;34;34;18
Andrew Arndt
Autobiography.

00;34;34;22 - 00;34;35;25
Joshua Hoffert
Autobiography.

00;34;35;27 - 00;34;38;02
Andrew Arndt
Yeah. I'm reading that. I'm reading that again right now.

00;34;38;02 - 00;34;45;26
Joshua Hoffert
It's just. Oh, it's so good. I, I've, I've read it since, but I remember reading John of the cross and going, what in the world is this guy about?

00;34;45;29 - 00;34;47;10
Andrew Arndt
What do you think of it?

00;34;47;15 - 00;35;21;07
Joshua Hoffert
I wasn't well, I wasn't at all. And and then I read it years later and I went, that's what it's about, you know. And so I totally resonate with what you're saying. You know, it was. Yeah, it was probably a good ten years in between the first time I read it and then I read it again. And what I've been through the dark night of the soul, I now I got framework, I can I actually I, I had I read it again as I was coming out of a season like that, about a two year period of darkness and silence and, it was like, and I remember I, I was actually teaching, at

00;35;21;07 - 00;35;31;25
Joshua Hoffert
a, at a small class on the dark night of the soul, realizing I was coming out of that as I was teaching. It was a surreal moment, and I almost lost it weeping in the class.

00;35;31;27 - 00;35;32;09
Andrew Arndt
Yeah.

00;35;32;11 - 00;35;48;26
Joshua Hoffert
Teaching the people about the dark night of the soul, realizing that's the experience I had just been in, but I didn't have language for because I didn't understand it. And I'd read the stuff about it, and it just dawned on me that none of us really care. He had my the season I'd been through had been, because of his love.

00;35;48;27 - 00;35;56;29
Joshua Hoffert
Actually, I read recently, Psalm 119, it says, out of my fervent desire, my soul is crushed.

00;35;57;01 - 00;35;57;17
Andrew Arndt
Oh.

00;35;57;17 - 00;36;05;08
Joshua Hoffert
Like, not out of the difficult circumstances I go through, but the fervent desire that keeps me moving towards him.

00;36;05;11 - 00;36;06;18
Andrew Arndt
Wow. Oh, man.

00;36;06;20 - 00;36;16;06
Joshua Hoffert
You know, and then, oh. Just totally different context for what I used to think the spiritual life was about, you know, hardship, difficulty crushing.

00;36;16;08 - 00;36;22;20
Andrew Arndt
Oh, isn't that the most interesting thing, that our own transformation changes how we read and understand things?

00;36;22;21 - 00;36;23;13
Joshua Hoffert
Totally.

00;36;23;16 - 00;36;30;24
Andrew Arndt
And yeah, there are depths or depths to texts that are inaccessible to us until we want to.

00;36;30;25 - 00;36;32;10
Joshua Hoffert
Read it a million times.

00;36;32;13 - 00;37;01;15
Andrew Arndt
But the relationship kind of works both ways, too, that those texts will help us do the work that we need to do to die and sometimes I think, you know, like when we get baptized, we're put underneath the water. And that is a sacrament of the death and the rising with Christ that we're to experience, but that initiates a series of deaths that we're going to go through in our lives that are really a preparation for the one death by which we fully give ourselves over to the Lord.

00;37;01;15 - 00;37;30;12
Andrew Arndt
But in the same way that you don't baptize yourself when you are undergoing these subsequent deaths, but you need friends to hold you under the water. And I think for me, that's what the desert folk were, is I was kind of like I had fallen in this pool and I was dying, and I kept trying to get up out of it, and they were like, no.

00;37;30;14 - 00;37;34;19
Andrew Arndt
They die a little bit more. I stop fighting this. I think it's been said.

00;37;34;20 - 00;37;37;12
Joshua Hoffert
You'll kill you in the most killing way possible.

00;37;37;15 - 00;37;38;06
Andrew Arndt
That is so.

00;37;38;06 - 00;37;58;14
Andrew Arndt
But that's so true. So here's the so this I'll just say this because I think it's an important part of the story. The first 18 months that I was out here, guys, I kept trying to concoct my own resurrection stories come back tales. So I like I used to be this guy who did this thing, and I got to get back on the pony as fast as possible.

00;37;58;14 - 00;38;16;29
Andrew Arndt
So every week I was like, this is the week I tender my letter of resignation. And I tell them that I'm going to move back to some cool city somewhere, Austin or Boulder, Colorado or wherever. And I'm going to plant another really cool church.

00;38;17;01 - 00;38;24;20
Joshua Hoffert
You like Dread Pirate Roberts and Princess Bride, you know? Yeah. Go to sleep. I'll most likely kill you in the morning.

00;38;24;22 - 00;38;25;19
Andrew Arndt
So,

00;38;25;22 - 00;38;37;05
Andrew Arndt
I that's what I kept. That's what I kept doing. Yeah. And the point, the turning. And again, it was the desert fathers and mothers and some others. But they were like, I just stop doing that.

00;38;37;08 - 00;38;37;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;38;37;29 - 00;38;51;22
Andrew Arndt
Like what? Just lie in the grave that the Lord has prepared for you here. And you know how, like when we conduct a graveside service, one of the final things that we say is like, rest in peace.

00;38;51;24 - 00;38;52;23
Andrew Arndt
Right?

00;38;52;25 - 00;39;12;10
Andrew Arndt
And I think that the Lord wants to do that with us in our lives when we go through seasons of death, is that he wants to he's created a little grave for us, and that grave is not a punishment for bad things that we did. It's a bad it's a place for us to rest. I think that the Lord is like, man, you are so tired and you've been complaining about how tired and worn out you are for so long.

00;39;12;10 - 00;39;35;06
Andrew Arndt
I've prepared a bed for you. Why don't you just rest in peace and leave the work of resurrection to me? Jesus doesn't raise himself from the dead, and neither do we. That's the work of his father. Amen. And so the turning point, spiritually for me was, I remember just kind of like waking up one day and being like, this is how stripped back I got in my life.

00;39;35;09 - 00;39;44;23
Andrew Arndt
I woke up one day and I was like, I'm breathing. I can't believe I'm breathing.

00;39;44;26 - 00;39;46;00
Andrew Arndt
Wow.

00;39;46;02 - 00;40;09;06
Andrew Arndt
Life is a gift. This is amazing. I have a body that can do things. I can go on a jog, I love jogs, I'm going to go on a jog today. I am married to a woman who really, genuinely cares about me. Can you believe that I have.

00;40;09;06 - 00;40;10;07
Andrew Arndt
These kids.

00;40;10;10 - 00;40;13;29
Andrew Arndt
That are interesting and funny and amazing?

00;40;14;01 - 00;40;18;22
Andrew Arndt
Unbelievable. I have a job. I have a job.

00;40;18;24 - 00;40;23;24
Andrew Arndt
They actually this at this blue building that I work at New Life Church.

00;40;23;26 - 00;40;32;18
Andrew Arndt
They pay me to talk about Jesus in front of people and with people one on one. That's not thing.

00;40;32;20 - 00;40;50;14
Andrew Arndt
So the whole thing really did feel like a grave to me. And then all of a sudden I realize I was like, oh, the Lord is my shepherd. I don't lack anything. The boundary lines have fallen for me in pleasant places like this grave. Being in this grave with Jesus is all the resurrection I could ever want. I don't want it.

00;40;50;15 - 00;41;12;09
Andrew Arndt
I don't need anything else. I'm alive with Jesus in this bed that he has made for me. This is amazing. Which honestly, back to Saint John of the cross. That is what he's doing. Yeah, he's saying that in that place where darkness in shrouds you in that, in that in the the dark night of the soul Canticle, that place where darkness in shrouds you.

00;41;12;11 - 00;41;39;11
Andrew Arndt
That's actually a place of intimacy with God and the kind of generative life that can happen in relational intimacy. And so I just needed that, and I needed people who could convince me of that so that I could die. The death that I needed to die. And I think if I think short of that, if I hadn't had those people, I would have just clamored right up out of the baptismal trough before the work of that season was complete.

00;41;39;11 - 00;41;54;00
Andrew Arndt
And I think what I've learned since then is just when you're in those spaces where it feels like death is around you, you don't have to fight it. You just don't have the you just don't have to fight it. It's actually this is death is even death is part of the ministry of the spirit in our life. Amen.

00;41;54;01 - 00;41;55;24
Andrew Arndt
Before, let it be well.

00;41;56;01 - 00;42;17;29
Joshua Hoffert
And when you've been. I've heard it said, when you've been through a dark night of the soul. You always keep one foot in. In this. You're. You're just aware, you know. Yeah, I. And the thing is, when when using that language, you know, we could go at Marie and I, I've talked about, a mona's. The bishop talks about the dark night long before the dark night.

00;42;17;29 - 00;42;44;07
Joshua Hoffert
Right? And his letters to his disciples. It's it's fascinating stuff. And it's not it. This isn't a John of the cross thing. It's a it's, you know, Paul talking about being dwelling in unapproachable light, that kind of stuff. Yeah. But anyway, I, I, I, I the way it had been taught to me, I assumed that when I went through that kind of season or if I was going to go through that kind of season, you know, the jury's still out on whether everybody goes through it.

00;42;44;10 - 00;42;55;11
Joshua Hoffert
Maybe they do. I thought I would be more. And I think it's just what you were saying. I'd be more whole and complete, and I'd come out feeling like a man full of faith.

00;42;55;13 - 00;42;56;07
Murray Dueck

00;42;56;09 - 00;43;21;25
Joshua Hoffert
And I came out going, I'm so much more aware, of how fallen and broken I am, but so much more aware of how gracious and loving and kind and tender he is. And my foot's always sitting there going, I know what that's like. And, and the first time I, I toe dipped back into it, I, I had a little existential dread.

00;43;21;27 - 00;43;22;14
Andrew Arndt
Wow.

00;43;22;15 - 00;43;27;19
Joshua Hoffert
And was like, I thought I already went through this. I didn't know I had to go through it again.

00;43;27;22 - 00;43;28;26
Andrew Arndt
Right.

00;43;28;29 - 00;43;45;20
Joshua Hoffert
And I and I realized, no, it's not, it's not, you know, one and done. It's like the Lord, how do you sit in that grave? Like what? What I was thinking as you were talking, it was, it's go into your cell, and your cell will teach you everything you need to know, you know? Yeah, yeah.

00;43;45;20 - 00;44;03;10
Joshua Hoffert
It's that same principle, right? This dessert principle. Go into your cell. Yeah. Just be there with Jesus and not. You don't have to go out of the cell and try and do great things and accomplish great things. Right. I think you mentioned it in the intro of your book, Water the Dead Stick and see if it comes back.

00;44;03;10 - 00;44;05;18
Andrew Arndt
And, that's the good. Yeah. Right.

00;44;05;20 - 00;44;06;03
Andrew Arndt
Right.

00;44;06;05 - 00;44;08;09
Andrew Arndt
It's so simple. Right? It's like, oh, it's got.

00;44;08;09 - 00;44;30;28
Joshua Hoffert
To be more profound than that. Well, no, it's actually pretty simple. Yeah. Just water the dead stick a little bit every day and you'll see something begin to sprout again. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be complicated, but we want it to be profound. And it's like, no, it's it's just right back there with him is and and the and the lesson really is as simple as his good kind and tender.

00;44;31;00 - 00;44;48;17
Joshua Hoffert
And because it's so easy to lose sight of that. Right. It's, it's the I think it's in the lamentations, it says that, Jerusalem lost sight, Jerusalem lost sight of her destiny. And she has fallen astonishingly it's. And the destiny is he wanted to be in her does it right. That's the destiny.

00;44;48;20 - 00;44;49;05
Andrew Arndt
Yes.

00;44;49;08 - 00;44;55;29
Joshua Hoffert
It's not a profound like it doesn't end. It's not more profound that he wanted to reside in her midst.

00;44;56;02 - 00;44;57;11
Andrew Arndt
Yeah, yeah.

00;44;57;13 - 00;45;00;03
Andrew Arndt
And lead her through the journey of mortality.

00;45;00;05 - 00;45;01;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, exactly.

00;45;01;05 - 00;45;15;21
Andrew Arndt
Which is an inevitable journey for all of us. And that journey. I love what you're saying about you. Don't just do it once. And even when you undergo the great struggle, there is this part of you that's like, okay, so I graduated from that now, right?

00;45;15;22 - 00;45;16;28
Andrew Arndt
Right, right. And I'm.

00;45;17;01 - 00;45;37;22
Andrew Arndt
And that's my temptation. I went through this whole thing like that process that began in 2014 that was so painful. So no, actually 2013, because the crisis of 14 was really predated by a lot of stuff that was very painful. It didn't really come to full term until, you know, kind of that pivot at that turning point moment that I talked about until late 2018.

00;45;37;22 - 00;45;39;12
Andrew Arndt
That's a five year block.

00;45;39;15 - 00;45;40;15
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;45;40;15 - 00;45;44;16
Andrew Arndt
So there's this part of me that's like, okay, so we did that. Now.

00;45;44;18 - 00;45;47;24
Andrew Arndt
But that even that yeah is a John.

00;45;47;24 - 00;45;57;02
Joshua Hoffert
Talks about the the the layers that you know he talks about the second to say you know there's the dark night of the sense and there's the dark night of the spirit and there's the dark night of the soul. And.

00;45;57;05 - 00;45;58;02
Andrew Arndt
Right. And he.

00;45;58;05 - 00;46;04;20
Joshua Hoffert
He comes at it from different angles, each one of them. But it's the same basic experience. I love that, yeah. The darkness of intimacy there is.

00;46;04;26 - 00;46;28;21
Andrew Arndt
It's it's the it's a exactly it's a training. And what's the training for. And some of the ancients have talked about how what our discipleship really is. It's an hours moreand it's the art of dying. So this mortal journey that we're on, it's leading us to the grave. And even though kind of in the first half of life, there tends to be kind of this accumulation of things.

00;46;28;23 - 00;46;45;17
Andrew Arndt
That's all in illusion because naked we came from our mothers wombs and naked we will depart. And the quicker we realize that the better. So if you're going to deal with kind of the second half of life in the right way, you really are going to have to learn how to let go of things. And that is what it is.

00;46;45;22 - 00;47;06;06
Andrew Arndt
It is you're going to have to let go of the institutional power that you've accumulated. Your money is going to start running out. Your kids are going to leave the home. Relationships are going to end people. Even if you made a name for yourself, people are going to start forgetting about you. And at some point the life is going to ebb out of your body.

00;47;06;09 - 00;47;07;12
Andrew Arndt
It's dying.

00;47;07;14 - 00;47;09;01
Andrew Arndt
And what Jesus.

00;47;09;01 - 00;47;29;09
Andrew Arndt
Teaches us in his life is not how to win what Jesus. I mean, we've set of people have said this about the Gospels is that the Gospels are basically passion stories with intent with with, with extended introductions. Jesus is teaching us how to die.

00;47;29;11 - 00;47;29;29
Andrew Arndt
Yeah, that's.

00;47;29;29 - 00;47;30;18
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;47;30;21 - 00;47;33;13
Andrew Arndt
That's what he's that's what he's doing. Yeah.

00;47;33;14 - 00;47;51;14
Andrew Arndt
And then when he comes back from the dead, it's not a return to the old form of life. It's he's been raised by the father into this new, whole, new form of existence that incorporates all the dying that he did. He still has the wounds and the scars and all that. And they haven't they? And actually, it's important to say that they're wounds, not scars.

00;47;51;20 - 00;47;52;14
Andrew Arndt
Yeah.

00;47;52;16 - 00;48;10;14
Andrew Arndt
They haven't been papered over. They're still open, but they're being transported. And that can happen to us before our death. Is that as we let go, we can be taken up into the life of the spirit, where the things that we went through, they don't get papered over in any way, but somehow they're transfigured by the presence of of God.

00;48;10;17 - 00;48;16;17
Joshua Hoffert
I, I want to I want to read this, passage to you. From a bonus, I'd reference Tim because it's just something.

00;48;16;19 - 00;48;19;00
Andrew Arndt
I want to hear it. I was hoping I could relate.

00;48;19;02 - 00;48;20;02
Andrew Arndt
Yeah, okay. Go for it.

00;48;20;04 - 00;48;23;01
Joshua Hoffert
So, a bonus for century, disciple of Anthony. Okay.

00;48;23;01 - 00;48;23;22
Andrew Arndt
Yeah.

00;48;23;24 - 00;48;41;16
Joshua Hoffert
So, so he says this little, tiny, little Darius Chitty put together a tiny little collection of a bonus letters, and, Murray and I have taught Murray's most probably the exact quote I'm going to pull up. We've talked about this a little bit. He said this, he said, this is why the Holy Fathers also withdrew into the desert alone.

00;48;41;18 - 00;49;05;13
Joshua Hoffert
Men such as Elijah the Jewish Bite, and John the Baptist. For do not suppose that because the righteous men were in the midst of men, it was among men that they achieved their righteousness. Rather, having first practiced much quiet, they then received the power of God dwelling in them, and then God sent them into the midst of men, having acquired every virtue, so that they might act as God's provision and cure men of their infirmities.

00;49;05;15 - 00;49;31;04
Joshua Hoffert
For they were physicians of the soul, able to cure men's infirmities. This was the need for which they were dragged away from their quiet and sent to men. But they are only sent when all their own diseases are healed. For a soul cannot be sent into the midst of men for their edification, if it has some defect of its own, and those who go because they are made perfect, go with their own will, and not at God's.

00;49;31;06 - 00;49;32;08
Andrew Arndt

00;49;32;12 - 00;49;34;13
Joshua Hoffert
Wow, that's one of my favorites.

00;49;34;15 - 00;49;35;05
Andrew Arndt
Yeah.

00;49;35;08 - 00;49;50;00
Joshua Hoffert
It's not a papered over. We have, you know, oh, the wound doesn't exist or their diseases are thoroughly explored and they become, physicians of the soul, and they're dragged away from their quiet and sent to men to edify them because they've been healed.

00;49;50;02 - 00;50;19;22
Andrew Arndt
Well, physician, physician and physician, heal thyself. You know, unless you have really experienced the transforming power of God, how can we lead people? And I love that. How the the dragged away really grabs me, because I think once you have learned the sweetness of the cell. Yeah, once you've learned the sweetness of life with God where you don't need anything else, then to be dragged away from that into public responsibility is less alluring to you than it was when you were 26, right?

00;50;19;23 - 00;50;39;16
Andrew Arndt
27, 28 and and that's what you start touching on. That's actually when you're really free with respect to it. When I don't need that power, when I don't need that opportunity, when I don't need that money to complete myself, now I can really use it in a way that blesses other people, and I'm not captive to it. I'm not in bondage to it.

00;50;39;16 - 00;50;59;20
Andrew Arndt
And now we're really on the doorstep of what? Later on, Thomas at campus would say where he would say the only person that can safely be in public is the person who would prefer to be a private. The only person who can be safely trusted to speak is the one who would rather be silent, and the only one who can safely lead is the person who would rather obey.

00;50;59;22 - 00;51;21;17
Andrew Arndt
It's the lust for all those things I have to speak. I have to be around people. I have to be in charge. That's the thing that cannot be trusted. And if we will listen to them, the desert fathers and mothers, I think, provide a cleansing for all that. They'll help disabuse us of the notion that somehow we can find completion in those things, that it's just enough that we are with God.

00;51;21;20 - 00;51;34;10
Joshua Hoffert
In the poem of a poem. I just read this today, this morning of a Pullman. I've been going back through the, one of the collections of sayings and a poem and said, the man who desires to teach rather reproved his neighbor.

00;51;34;13 - 00;51;35;00
Andrew Arndt

00;51;35;03 - 00;51;36;01
Andrew Arndt
Yeah.

00;51;36;03 - 00;51;41;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I just said so. Said you? Yeah, yeah. And lose the desire and then you'll be helpful.

00;51;41;24 - 00;52;01;20
Andrew Arndt
Yes. For sure. I was reading a I'm reading through the Philip Kaleo, which is so closely related in so many ways. The. Yeah, yeah, one of the, one of the guys I was reading not long ago just talked about the he was talking about the folly of those who come to a moment of spiritual insight, and then they go, oh, well, I need a lot of followers now.

00;52;01;22 - 00;52;02;23
Andrew Arndt
I,

00;52;02;25 - 00;52;26;09
Andrew Arndt
And I just it's funny. It's funny to me. And and it winds up he's it's very actually prescient because he articulates the perverse relationship between that leader and their followers. So the followers need the validation of being like, I'm connected to somebody, right? And the leader needs the validation of like, look at all these followers I have. And I go, man, if only you could have seen social media.

00;52;26;11 - 00;52;28;09
Andrew Arndt
Yeah, very good.

00;52;28;11 - 00;52;30;27
Joshua Hoffert
I don't know if they would have written the file locally or they would have just like.

00;52;30;27 - 00;52;39;14
Andrew Arndt
No, we're we're just done. It's not fixable. We do. Yeah. That's right, that's right. It's not fixable. It's gone.

00;52;39;14 - 00;53;00;18
Andrew Arndt
Too far. But again, that's the kind of holiness that they train us in where it's like, okay, you had a moment of revelation, of insight, of intimacy with God. Why are you out on the street corner selling it? Why are you trying to parlay it into something? Why don't you just sit in your.

00;53;00;18 - 00;53;02;02
Andrew Arndt
Cell.

00;53;02;04 - 00;53;18;24
Andrew Arndt
And let that seed that the spirit has dropped into your spirit, let it, like, push its roots deep down into the soil of your life so that it sprouts up into something that bears fruit and feeds people without you having to manage that or manipulate it, or without.

00;53;18;24 - 00;53;22;04
Andrew Arndt
Frankly, you even knowing anything about it.

00;53;22;06 - 00;53;40;24
Andrew Arndt
Can we let the fruit, the work of the spirit, really come to term in us? Or are we just so anxious to make a name for ourselves that we're out there kind of making it happen in our on our own, you know, and that, I mean, that that kind of thing was such a it was, it was, a liberating rebuke to me.

00;53;40;27 - 00;53;55;07
Andrew Arndt
I think when I read them, I was like, man, there's like this whole mode of doing ministry that just was not right. So part of what's been fun for me the last few years is, kind of as I was sort of coming into that, you know, I talk about that season of being like, I'm dead with Jesus.

00;53;55;07 - 00;54;15;21
Andrew Arndt
That's all the resurrection I could ever want. It was right about that time that the senior pastor of our church here came to me and was like, hey, the east side of the city is growing. And we don't have a presence out there, and there are people that are spiritually marooned, you know, would you consider would you consider launching a congregation out there?

00;54;15;23 - 00;54;21;11
Andrew Arndt
And whereas at so you talk about being dragged away. Right. Whereas at 28 I would have been like, this.

00;54;21;11 - 00;54;22;26
Andrew Arndt
Is the big opportunity.

00;54;22;27 - 00;54;24;08
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Right.

00;54;24;10 - 00;54;32;13
Andrew Arndt
37 and having died in that way, I was like, yeah, I think you got the wrong guy.

00;54;32;15 - 00;54;35;04
Andrew Arndt
I thought, I know I don't want to do that.

00;54;35;06 - 00;54;59;07
Andrew Arndt
And it took a long time to convince me that that was something that the Lord is really leading me to do. And honestly, this is, I think I needed the desert fathers and mothers to even get me to this point because of their emphasis on obedience, how important obedience is. I went through about a 6 to 9 months stretch with that whole thing where I was laying that before the Lord in my usual way.

00;54;59;10 - 00;55;15;06
Andrew Arndt
God, what are you saying? Are you leading us into this? You know, I'm kind of searching my heart for a leaping of the spirit, you know? Is there something in me that that says, yes, I'm kind of looking for a Macedon and call, you know, Andrew, come and preach the gospel on the east side of the city, you know.

00;55;15;06 - 00;55;36;24
Andrew Arndt
And I'm not getting anything. Nothing. And so I remember getting to this point where I was like, I'm not hearing yes from the Lord. And I'm also not hearing no from the Lord. So I went to my wife, I went to my two closest friends on staff, and I went back to my senior pastor and I said, I'm just going to lay this decision at your feet.

00;55;36;25 - 00;55;59;12
Andrew Arndt
What do you guys think? And if you think I should do this, then I'm going to take that to be the voice of God and I'm going to do it. But if you don't think that this is a good idea for me to do, then I'm not going to do it. And they have just unanimous me. They were like, you're and we love the place that you're in spiritually and emotionally, and you have the gifts to do it and you've done it before.

00;55;59;14 - 00;56;01;21
Andrew Arndt
You should do this, right? And I was like.

00;56;01;28 - 00;56;27;12
Andrew Arndt
Okay, the Lord has spoken. And and so it was like coming at it in that way from a place that was radically abandoned and surrendered and emptied is part of what has made this experience so joyful. I, and to my knowledge, I'm not. I'm sure there's some piece of me that's using it to prop up something as deficient in my personality, because my sanctification is not yet complete, but not at all in the same way that I was.

00;56;27;14 - 00;57;03;11
Andrew Arndt
There's just been more of an open handedness about it, and I feel like I can be in it as a leader that's more composed and mature and less attached to it and the wrong way, so that I can love in the right kind of way and be a support to it. And I think also another upshot for me on the leadership side is that when you're not inappropriately related to the thing that you're leading, because I don't need it to complete something in me, I can challenge in the ways that I need to challenge so I can be I can be a kind of, a strong moral and spiritual presence, even collectively, in

00;57;03;11 - 00;57;24;26
Andrew Arndt
a way that I wasn't able to before, because before I was too threatened by the idea that if I push too hard, if they reject me and this relationship falls apart, I'm going to have nothing left. Well, if you don't fear that, yes, that changes everything. And I think that's what makes Jesus the powerful presence that he is in the Gospels, because he have the human fear of death.

00;57;24;26 - 00;57;46;16
Andrew Arndt
Yes, but he had also wrestled that to the mat in a way that we hadn't. So that when he starts marching back to Jerusalem, you know, and his disciples are like a little while ago, Herod tried to kill you, and now you're going back there. What are you doing? And what does he say? He's like, you tell that Fox I'm going to talk about demons today and tomorrow.

00;57;46;16 - 00;58;06;11
Andrew Arndt
And on the third day I must reach my goal. And in any case, no prophet can die outside of Jerusalem. He's like, I'm bringing the noise right to your doorstep, and I know I'm probably going to get killed, but this is the will of God. So I'm coming for you. And I think we have to get free. And our spirit of the kinds of attachments that hold us back.

00;58;06;11 - 00;58;09;18
Andrew Arndt
And again, these desert folk, they just.

00;58;09;21 - 00;58;11;06
Andrew Arndt
They help.

00;58;11;08 - 00;58;22;10
Andrew Arndt
Chart that terrain. They help kind of give you a roadmap for coming into those sorts of emptiness and detachment that actually make us, I think, spiritually more powerful presences in the world in the way that God would have us be.

00;58;22;13 - 00;58;27;03
Andrew Arndt
Right. Yeah. Wow.

00;58;27;06 - 00;58;49;08
Murray Dueck
You know, it's, interesting caught up this, you know, kind of a modern guy, father Saint Silwan and Saints of Froni. These two modern guys, I think they wrote a book called enlargement of the heart. And, one of them says, and I like I like the way they say it, because when we quote this verse, you know, if a seed falls into the ground and dies, it'll bear much fruit, right?

00;58;49;10 - 00;59;23;05
Murray Dueck
But we're still thinking, really it's about fruit berry. And they would quote that very very different. They would say there's no resurrection without a death. Yeah. And and one of them says, you know, walk over to the abyss and look down and then take three steps back and have tea, you know, and just get comfort with with looking down and, you know, some of the modern Orthodox Desert Fathers guys, you know, during the day, they're, they have a coffee table and at night it's actually their, it's actually their coffee, and they sleep in it.

00;59;23;06 - 00;59;29;21
Murray Dueck
Wow. To remind them of hey, dead to self. You know, it's kind of, you know, they still do that. It's kind of a crazy thing.

00;59;29;23 - 00;59;32;20
Andrew Arndt
But it's a good practice. But it's a good practice now.

00;59;32;20 - 00;59;49;00
Murray Dueck
And that's what I why they're doing it. Right. It makes you know when you understand why they're doing it. It it's a good practice. It puts a little fear of God in you. I mean, the parable of the guy who builds a barn, and I get to store all my stuff and and hey, life is good. And the Lord says, hey, your soul is going to be required to you.

00;59;49;01 - 00;59;50;28
Murray Dueck
Yeah. You know, we just don't think about that.

00;59;50;29 - 01;00;08;23
Andrew Arndt
Yes. It is, it is salubrious for us to think about that. I, I feel like I read something in Arthur Brooks in the last year or one of his books where he talks about sight. He was talking about some kind of psychological health, and that people that ponder their death are even psychologically more healthy. And I think that that's I think that's for a couple reasons.

01;00;08;26 - 01;00;25;02
Andrew Arndt
One, that just makes you grateful for every breath. Another, you hold things more loosely. But I think it also you start seeing the importance of now and this moment, and it poisons you to just say the kinds of things that you need to say and do the kinds of things that you need to do.

01;00;25;05 - 01;00;27;14
Andrew Arndt
Yeah. So,

01;00;27;17 - 01;00;30;11
Murray Dueck
What how much of this ask a question that we.

01;00;30;11 - 01;00;32;08
Joshua Hoffert
Got going for 15 minutes? Something like that. Yeah.

01;00;32;12 - 01;00;34;01
Andrew Arndt
We're good, we're good. Yeah.

01;00;34;04 - 01;00;39;01
Murray Dueck
So you know, you'll see that, like, Father John Barry's a cool guy if you ever want to read it.

01;00;39;04 - 01;00;40;04
Andrew Arndt
I love.

01;00;40;04 - 01;00;41;28
Andrew Arndt
Him, I love his stuff.

01;00;42;00 - 01;01;06;26
Murray Dueck
How do you. Okay. How he talks about how Christ is has changed the purpose of death. Yeah. How how now death is actually the doorway to resurrection. Yes. And and, And when before, I mean. And the reason I bring that up is that we're so again, you know, without understanding what you're talking about, we're we try to all avoid it, you know, you know, there's there's again the story of, of the monk who goes to the abbot and goes explain dying to self.

01;01;06;26 - 01;01;18;01
Murray Dueck
And the abbot goes, go out to everything is great and cursed. Cursed with everything. You know what's weird? Yeah. Goes up to the grave and starts cursing him. Comes back and the. How'd it go? Nothing happened.

01;01;18;01 - 01;01;18;25
Andrew Arndt
Yeah, well, they.

01;01;18;25 - 01;01;39;09
Murray Dueck
Go well tonight and blessed. Yeah. Blessed with everything you have. Yes. That's weird. Does it comes back the next day. Abbot says what happened? Because nothing happened. Well, when you're like our our city goes cursing you, nothing happens. Bless you. Nothing happens. You're dead too. So yeah. You know and and with that, in the process of, of salvation.

01;01;39;11 - 01;02;00;14
Murray Dueck
So because, you know, we're looking at the use of death as a process of salvation, right? Yeah. So, you know, I remember Bishop close to where said he's on a train wearing his cross, you know, dressed in his robe. And this guy comes up to him and says, brother, are you saved? And his response is, I'm in the process of being saved.

01;02;00;14 - 01;02;20;16
Murray Dueck
Yeah. You know, how do you this process now? Because you embrace that brace, the concept of death. It's like little seasons. You said like it's not just one big one. There's there is this dying on the installment prayer plan, right. How do you how do you get that across to your congregants? This thinking like that. Because when we think salvation is I prayed the prayer, I'm done.

01;02;20;16 - 01;02;32;05
Murray Dueck
Now I'll just serve up. But I mean, you're looking at this from a different point of view and bringing that into a charismatic church. Yeah, like, do you have a is it just natural now for you to do it like you see it and then you draw people in or.

01;02;32;12 - 01;02;53;21
Andrew Arndt
Yeah, I think, I think it's you because I think it's ubiquitous for me now. So I think it's, I think it's just there. I think it comes up in pastoral counseling a lot with people. Yeah, that I see them and Charismatics just struggle so bad with this because the bad thing is happening. And what they want is a miraculous incursion of God.

01;02;53;23 - 01;02;55;18
Andrew Arndt
Reverse the bad thing.

01;02;55;21 - 01;03;00;23
Murray Dueck
So they want they want salt on the horse getting knocked off. Right? Yeah.

01;03;00;25 - 01;03;15;11
Andrew Arndt
Yeah. I mean, the moment and I, and I just, I think what I want to say about that is that that's not a wrong impulse per se. You know, like when you're when your child is, is estranged from you, for instance, it's not a wished. What should we pray for, Lord?

01;03;15;11 - 01;03;17;21
Andrew Arndt
Restore or please?

01;03;17;23 - 01;03;33;08
Andrew Arndt
Or when your health is failing you in some way? It's not wrong to pray God heal your. When your finances are not working, you pick your issue. That's not wrong. And the Jesus that we meet in the Gospels is not a Jesus. That's just like, oh well, you know, grin and bear it. Everything is the will of God.

01;03;33;08 - 01;04;01;04
Andrew Arndt
I mean, he's the healer. He does it. Yeah, yeah. But I think it's deepened. I think part of the thing that I always struggled with, with my charismatic heritage, was that it just didn't have good language for a robust, engagement with suffering. And so, yes, we pray for healing. I mean, probably every Sunday we've got some moment in our service where it's like, look, if you're struggling with this or you just need the Lord to help you with this, he's he's among us with pity.

01;04;01;10 - 01;04;24;16
Andrew Arndt
He wants to help you. But the other side of it is that when that miraculous turnaround doesn't come, what do you do? And is that the. Is the absence of that miraculous turnaround a sign of the absence of the spirit, or is God trying to do something in that? Is God harnessing that moment to change you in some way?

01;04;24;19 - 01;04;45;12
Andrew Arndt
And that's where I think, you know, again, like the psalmist says, like, even though the psalmist is constantly praying, God, deliver me help, the psalmist will also pray in Psalm 119. Man, it was like, oh gosh, they'll say it was good for me to be afflicted so that I might learn your decrees, that there is something about the suffering that I went through.

01;04;45;12 - 01;05;11;12
Andrew Arndt
It put me in touch with the truth of God in a deeper way. So I think for me, it's just given me maybe a more robust appreciation for the sheer dynamism of life and how it works that God can. God can both bless us by blessing us in the way that we understand blessing. And he can also bless us by not doing the very thing that we're asking in order to bless us in a much deeper way.

01;05;11;13 - 01;05;25;27
Andrew Arndt
Yeah. And in both cases, you know, it's happening. We're just getting blessed. Do you know what I mean? So that's Paul. He's like, I know what it means to abound, and I know what it means to be a base. And I'm good, I am good if I've got my pocket, if I've got my coffers full and everything is great, I'm fan of great.

01;05;26;04 - 01;05;41;23
Andrew Arndt
If I'm withering away in this cell and I'm on the verge of death, I know that I'm just going to be whisked away to be with Jesus in the presence of Jesus, drawing me close. So, And that again, as our fathers and mothers, the emptiness of self. What does that do to him in Philippians? He's like, I don't know.

01;05;41;26 - 01;05;56;26
Andrew Arndt
You know, I desire to depart with Christ, which would better be better by far, but you know, it's better for you and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So he's like, you know what? I think that now that I'm weighing these things, I think I'm going to try to stick around a little bit longer. Not because of me. It's not because I'm clinging to life, is I?

01;05;56;27 - 01;06;21;21
Andrew Arndt
Because your sake, I think I can still be helpful to you. That is the kind of thing that we need to go through. We're we're so open handed with our lives where it's like, if God brings this great thing, I'm asking for awesome. And if not, that's fine too. I'm just keeping company with Jesus all through this life and into the great a grave and on the other side of the grave.

01;06;21;24 - 01;06;37;06
Murray Dueck
That's great. Thank you so much for that. That's just beautiful. Yeah. Because that that's the trick, right? Taking people like when you're young, you're in this season of doing right and and then comes the desert off date and you're like, what the hell? I mean, you got to meet kind of people where they are and move them along.

01;06;37;06 - 01;06;37;19
Andrew Arndt
Yeah.

01;06;37;19 - 01;06;51;22
Murray Dueck
Because like you said, when you're young, if you went back in time and talk to yourself, you probably wouldn't be able to hear it. Yeah. Like, for me, I think back, if I could go back every seven years, that version of me went back seven years, I wouldn't have a clue what I'm talking about. I'm like, yeah, just, you know, we keep growing and change.

01;06;51;23 - 01;06;53;12
Joshua Hoffert
I'd probably call myself a heretic.

01;06;53;18 - 01;06;57;26
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, I'm absolutely sure. Like, why do you believe now? But wouldn't you.

01;06;57;26 - 01;07;21;22
Andrew Arndt
Wouldn't you guys say that your encounter with these guys, it just progressively frees you and it helps simplify what your approach is. And I have this one of my close friends on our staff here, one of the guys that I submitted the decision about new lives to. We are both. We're the same age and we're kind of the next generation of leaders as our senior leader prepares to retire.

01;07;21;25 - 01;07;37;10
Andrew Arndt
So there's lots of big things on paper coming our way, but I don't think either of us are in a place where we're like, yes, the big things are happening. We just always talk when we get together. We just talk about, here's the goal grow old and holy and then die.

01;07;37;10 - 01;07;38;20
Andrew Arndt

01;07;38;23 - 01;07;59;11
Andrew Arndt
Right. And so our spiritual conversation is really around that. How what is holiness looking like for us? Are we becoming holy? Are we tranquil in our spirits? Are we gentle in our spirits? Are we handling power that's being given to us in the right way? Are we are we forgiving? Are we stay in clean in our hearts, old and holy?

01;07;59;11 - 01;08;04;07
Andrew Arndt
This stuff doesn't do anything to you. It doesn't. It can't add anything.

01;08;04;10 - 01;08;05;15
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

01;08;05;18 - 01;08;27;01
Andrew Arndt
To your essential being. And the departure of it doesn't take anything away from your essential being. We just are who we are with God, and we're trying to be faithful to him, keeping company with Jesus in this life. So I just I think these guys, I think the deep dive into them again, it just helps strip so much of the.

01;08;27;03 - 01;08;34;04
Andrew Arndt
So much the extra stuff away that we use to prop up a sense of self that we should not be using to prop up a sense of self.

01;08;34;10 - 01;08;36;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right. So, you.

01;08;36;02 - 01;08;48;03
Murray Dueck
Know, I, I am coming out of the charismatic, the prophetic movement. I'll just say this one thing. It used to be there used to be this prophetic joke when two prophets meet each other, how do they greet each other? You're fine. You know you're fine. How am I?

01;08;48;05 - 01;08;50;15
Andrew Arndt
You know, like,

01;08;50;17 - 01;09;07;25
Murray Dueck
But the Desert fathers, you read how they would greet each other. They would say, how's your prayer? How's your prayer? You know, and it's and it's. And what they don't mean is how many hours you putting it. What they mean is how is the flow from the heart of the Spirit of God as you're communing with it? That's what they meet.

01;09;07;27 - 01;09;08;26
Andrew Arndt
Yeah.

01;09;08;28 - 01;09;18;24
Murray Dueck
And to greet each other, to ask that and realize that's what it's about. That's a big change, man. Wow. Move around there.

01;09;18;26 - 01;09;38;14
Andrew Arndt
Yeah. I mean isn't that it, isn't that everything. How is your how is your prayer. Are you dwelling with the Lord I and I. That is one thing. It is as a pastor, it's funny because, I used to and I think the, the Desert fathers and mothers have helped me with this, but there's a lot of other folks too.

01;09;38;17 - 01;10;06;18
Andrew Arndt
But I think as a pastor, I used to think of, like, hey, we got to make sure that we teach on prayer every once in a while. Yeah, there's a lot of things happening in the Christian life, and prayer is like kind of one of those things. So make sure you ride right. And I just almost every exhortation in my sermons these days is kind of like it sort of ends with like, well, just will you believe that Jesus is who he says he is and will you stay with him?

01;10;06;20 - 01;10;08;05
Andrew Arndt
Yeah. If right.

01;10;08;08 - 01;10;25;15
Andrew Arndt
If I can convince you to do that, to just stay with him. And that is what prayer is. It's just staying with Jesus so that Jesus can be, can it can be Jesus for us and be Jesus in the world. I think you're going to turn out okay. You know, it's like the mother. It's like the Mother Teresa thing that she said to Henry, now.

01;10;25;15 - 01;10;36;24
Andrew Arndt
And I think where she he was like, what do I need to do, you know? And she was like, well, spend an hour a day in adoration of the Lord and never do anything that, you know is wrong.

01;10;36;26 - 01;10;45;22
Andrew Arndt
And you'll be okay. I know, right, I love it, love that. Yeah. I love that.

01;10;45;24 - 01;10;49;24
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, yeah, that goes back to that. But it's got to be more profound than that.

01;10;49;29 - 01;10;51;28
Andrew Arndt
It's not. No it's not.

01;10;51;28 - 01;10;53;06
Andrew Arndt
No. Yeah.

01;10;53;08 - 01;11;13;04
Murray Dueck
I know there's one guy. It's funny. I think it's in one of Brennan Manning's books. He talks about going to see Mother Teresa, I can't remember the name was an intro. And he says, you went to see Mother Teresa? And she says, what can I do for you? And he goes, pray that I have clarity. And she goes, I will not pray that for you, because that's the last thing you're hanging on to.

01;11;13;07 - 01;11;18;08
Murray Dueck
Oh, yeah. You don't need clarity. No, you need, like, I think he said, relationships. Well, you need to clarify.

01;11;18;11 - 01;11;33;08
Andrew Arndt
You need reliance on the Lord. Will you? I think it was Joshua you brought up, Teresa of Avila, one of my favorite quotes from her. And this is it, because I do think I saw it when I was younger. In my faith, I thought the older I would get, the further I'd be able to see down the road.

01;11;33;08 - 01;11;35;19
Andrew Arndt
That's that clarity, peace and quiet.

01;11;35;19 - 01;11;37;17
Andrew Arndt
Oh yeah. No no no no no no.

01;11;37;17 - 01;11;54;11
Andrew Arndt
No no no no. That's one of the things that's had to die I don't I yes, I can't see more than a couple feet in front of my face. And, and she says, I think it's in the way of perfection. She says this, she says, though our sight is poor and the dust on the road blinds us.

01;11;54;13 - 01;12;15;28
Andrew Arndt
Yet in contemplation, the Lord leads us safely to the end of the day's journey, without our understanding how, and I think of that is true of the days prayer life. We keep going. But I also think it's just it's true of our story, our journey that for the most part, we just can't see more than five inches in front of our face.

01;12;16;00 - 01;12;28;05
Andrew Arndt
But in contemplation and adoration of the Lord and keeping company with Jesus, the Lord leads us safely to the end of our life's journey. And we don't. We just don't need to know a thing about it. We're not in the driver's seat here.

01;12;28;07 - 01;12;28;16
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

01;12;28;16 - 01;12;47;06
Andrew Arndt
Yeah, we're along for the ride, and every once in a while, the Lord invites us to put our hand on the steering wheel and to kind of do it with him. But he's, he's he's he's doing it. Then Mandy Smith, pastor down in Australia, I was interviewing her on our podcast at the church, and she had this great thing she said recently.

01;12;47;06 - 01;12;58;27
Andrew Arndt
Or she was like in prayer, I'm reminded that God's kingdom is doing just fine. And I love that. I just think that. That's right.

01;12;58;28 - 01;13;00;16
Andrew Arndt
You know, that is prayer.

01;13;00;16 - 01;13;04;21
Andrew Arndt
It's like, oh, God. So you're pretty. You're you're good at your job, aren't you?

01;13;04;23 - 01;13;09;22
Andrew Arndt
Okay. Yeah. All right. I'm gonna be good. I'm going to be fine.

01;13;09;22 - 01;13;11;27
Andrew Arndt
You're going to be fine. This is going to be fine.

01;13;12;04 - 01;13;13;14
Andrew Arndt
Yeah.

01;13;13;17 - 01;13;28;15
Andrew Arndt
Which liberates me to have joy and to celebrate those. Right? Yeah, I can I can be like a child because I've turned. I've turned the reins of the universe over to the king of the universe. And he's very competent at his job, right?

01;13;28;17 - 01;13;29;21
Andrew Arndt
That's right. He's very.

01;13;29;21 - 01;13;31;21
Murray Dueck
Very at ease in the driver's seat.

01;13;31;23 - 01;13;33;18
Andrew Arndt
Yes.

01;13;33;20 - 01;13;37;05
Murray Dueck
It's like Julian of Norwich. Right? All things will be well. Yeah.

01;13;37;07 - 01;13;40;26
Andrew Arndt
Will be wild. Yeah. And all things will be well. Yes. Yeah. Yes.

01;13;41;00 - 01;14;03;07
Joshua Hoffert
I'm thinking about these dreams I had when I was, younger. Yeah. Maybe ten, 15 years ago. And I'd be driving around in my dad's car just frustrated about the way he was going about, you know, taking this turn in this turn and I remember, I remember going, dad, what are you're going you're getting involved in all the traffic.

01;14;03;07 - 01;14;17;03
Joshua Hoffert
You're going the wrong way. This is so frustrating. And and, you know, I wake up and go oh I guess maybe I'm a little frustrated with the way God does things.

01;14;17;10 - 01;14;17;29
Andrew Arndt
Yeah.

01;14;18;02 - 01;14;36;04
Joshua Hoffert
You know, spending so much energy over one one just thinking about this. I for one I had you know, it's kind of a series progression of dreams. Yeah. And one of one of them I had. I'm driving with my dad, and I finally conceded that he can determine the direction we're going to go in this dream. Right?

01;14;36;05 - 01;14;47;09
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. Okay, fine. You can go wherever you want. And I'm saying this to my dad in the dream, I said, but I'm going to figure out what radio station we listen to.

01;14;47;11 - 01;14;53;26
Andrew Arndt
Okay. And I mean, you know, that whole.

01;14;53;28 - 01;14;58;06
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, I let go of a little bit, right? I don't need to tell you which way to do it now. Right.

01;14;58;06 - 01;14;58;29
Andrew Arndt
Yeah.

01;14;59;02 - 01;15;07;04
Joshua Hoffert
But I'm going to I'm still holding onto I'm going to hold onto this and this and that's fair. I can get a cell, sit in the grave.

01;15;07;06 - 01;15;08;15
Andrew Arndt
Yeah, yeah.

01;15;08;15 - 01;15;10;29
Joshua Hoffert
I don't have as many of those dreams anymore, thank God.

01;15;11;02 - 01;15;12;11
Andrew Arndt
Oh that's good. That's a.

01;15;12;11 - 01;15;14;09
Andrew Arndt
That's a really, really funny dream.

01;15;14;09 - 01;15;18;12
Andrew Arndt
Funny story. Well yeah. Wow.

01;15;18;14 - 01;15;22;13
Joshua Hoffert
So, okay. Do you have five more minutes?

01;15;22;15 - 01;15;23;09
Andrew Arndt
Sure.

01;15;23;11 - 01;15;35;28
Joshua Hoffert
Five more minutes. I've got a question. Not changing gears, but just going a little more granular. Yeah. The the my youngest son is six. His name is Cassian.

01;15;36;00 - 01;15;36;29
Andrew Arndt
Wow.

01;15;37;01 - 01;15;43;19
Joshua Hoffert
So I will say that the greatest feat of my life was convincing my wife that that was a good name for a child.

01;15;43;19 - 01;15;46;01
Andrew Arndt
So I'm.

01;15;46;03 - 01;15;55;23
Andrew Arndt
Maybe I'm for. I think Cassian is a great name, by the way, but I. It is fortunate for me that I encounter the desert fathers and mothers. After all, my kids were.

01;15;55;26 - 01;15;56;03
Andrew Arndt
I.

01;15;56;06 - 01;15;58;05
Andrew Arndt
Might I might have a poem and.

01;15;58;08 - 01;16;06;13
Andrew Arndt
And I, you know, I mean, I didn't know the carry around my. Yeah. That's right. We could call them Mac. That's right.

01;16;06;15 - 01;16;08;26
Joshua Hoffert
But not at least not John the Dwarf, you know.

01;16;08;26 - 01;16;11;09
Andrew Arndt
Well, yeah. Who I love. Yeah.

01;16;11;12 - 01;16;17;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah I do. So in terms of the the the. Yeah. Or the new voice. Yeah.

01;16;17;00 - 01;16;20;22
Andrew Arndt
That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

01;16;20;22 - 01;16;23;23
Joshua Hoffert
My wife has vetoed many names when it comes to.

01;16;23;23 - 01;16;24;09
Andrew Arndt
Yeah, it's.

01;16;24;12 - 01;16;45;16
Joshua Hoffert
The three kids. Yeah. But Cassian, she was like, oh, actually. And I had just finished studying, some of Cassian's writings. So I only bring that up because in your in your first chapter there in your book, you mentioned as, as kind of a framework for the desert practices. Cassian's constitutes the, the institute's in the conferences and his interviews with the monks.

01;16;45;16 - 01;17;02;22
Joshua Hoffert
So, you know, on a granular level, just, you know, we've talked talking kind of this big picture of everything on a granular level. What are some of the names that have stood out to you that really have spoken to you? But there's what, I remember how many names there are in the in alphabetical collection, but it's a couple hundred.

01;17;02;25 - 01;17;21;08
Joshua Hoffert
You know, you mentioned syncretic. Yeah. You mentioned Anthony. You mentioned we've mentioned a few. So who who for me. Macarius, a great guy. He gripped me with. Within the heart are many things, right? The the the lions and the tigers or. They're not the Tigers, but the lions are there, and every evil thing is there.

01;17;21;08 - 01;17;41;00
Joshua Hoffert
But there also lies the apostles, the kingdom, heaven, the angels, all things are there. Right? That was the quote that just went, oh my gosh, that that arrested my heart. And I went, I know what that feels like to have a lion sitting next to the kingdom and the and the battle between those two things.

01;17;41;00 - 01;17;42;02
Andrew Arndt
Yeah.

01;17;42;05 - 01;17;48;10
Joshua Hoffert
And so what I'm just curious on a granular level, what what were some of the ones that really just went, oh, that one grabbed me.

01;17;48;12 - 01;17;49;20
Andrew Arndt
And, you know.

01;17;49;23 - 01;17;54;11
Joshua Hoffert
You're you're, in a way, who's your patron saint, I guess is what we're saying.

01;17;54;14 - 01;18;17;20
Andrew Arndt
I don't I don't think I have one, but there are a few that have become definitional for me. I think it was Anthony the Great who said our life and our death are with our neighbor. And if we gain our brother, we have gained God. And if we sin against our brother, you know, we have we have sinned against Christ or we've scandalized, or if we scandalize our brother, we've sinned against Christ, and we didn't really have time to touch on it.

01;18;17;20 - 01;18;39;05
Andrew Arndt
But their emphasis on tenderness in relationships and the sacrament ality of relationships really changed my life. I think I had that instinct towards it, but they gave me a new language for our life and our death are with our neighbor, and if we gain them, we've gained God. And that's given me an instinct to just fight for relationship in all of the things.

01;18;39;05 - 01;18;52;14
Andrew Arndt
And congregational life is very messy, but we can fight for relationship. That's a guiding light for us in the storm. So I think that that has been a big one for me. I belong to ABBA Joseph.

01;18;52;16 - 01;18;53;08
Murray Dueck
Oh, yes.

01;18;53;10 - 01;18;54;05
Andrew Arndt
Oh, okay.

01;18;54;08 - 01;19;13;04
Andrew Arndt
Hey, as far as, like like I say, my office. Yeah, I do all this stuff. All this religious stuff. What? What more is left for me? And Joseph was known to be a holy man. And he stood up, and he raised his hands to the heavens and his hands. Right. And they became like ten lamps of fire and he said, if you will, if you wish, if you desire, you can become off flame.

01;19;13;06 - 01;19;43;19
Andrew Arndt
Yeah. And it's that that the spiritual life is more than just the management of religious detail, but it's about a real giving over to the Spirit of God that had a very big impact on me. John, John the dwarf, the watering of the stick that was planted in the ground. That story has become a definitional story for me of of learning the joy of what seems like feudal obedience, where I'm just doing this stupid thing over and over again.

01;19;43;19 - 01;19;59;19
Andrew Arndt
I don't really get why I'm doing it, but if I just stay faithful with it, the miracle happens and all of a sudden it bears fruit and it says that they took the fruit in a basket and they took it to the people at the church, and they fed the church. And then whoever was overseeing him said, behold, the fruit of obedience.

01;19;59;22 - 01;20;00;16
Murray Dueck
So yes.

01;20;00;16 - 01;20;20;29
Andrew Arndt
That one has been very definitional to me. And then we talked about Pullman. And he's he's such a tender hearted man, the shepherd. And I've loved all of his sayings, but the one that always stands out to me from him is where he says, teach your mouth to say what is in your heart.

01;20;21;02 - 01;20;21;27
Andrew Arndt

01;20;22;00 - 01;20;44;21
Andrew Arndt
And I honestly think that learning to tell the truth might be the hardest thing that we do in this life. How do I really communicate the right thing? How do I communicate the truth from my soul and not have it be polluted by all this false self stuff that gets in there? How do I say the truth and not have it be what I think I'm supposed to say?

01;20;44;21 - 01;21;05;04
Andrew Arndt
Because how do I tell the truth? And if we can figure out how to tell the truth, we might just stand a chance of becoming truthful persons. But we can only really tell the truth if we're continually encountered by the word. Who is the truth, you know? And so there's like this whole spirituality and a theology, honestly, of relationships that's implied in that very short saying.

01;21;05;06 - 01;21;13;24
Andrew Arndt
And I have fought hard for that over the last bunch of years, learning just to like, stop qualifying everything, start.

01;21;13;26 - 01;21;14;25
Andrew Arndt

01;21;14;28 - 01;21;40;05
Andrew Arndt
Stop trying to make everything more palatable for people, you know, like learn like the writer of Proverbs said, keep a keep. Oh, what did he say? Keep falsehood and lies far from me. Give me only my daily bread. You know. Keep falsehood and lies far from me. It's this. It's this emphasis on a simplicity of speech, you know?

01;21;40;07 - 01;21;53;17
Andrew Arndt
And Paul talks about that with his congregations. He's like, we didn't we didn't use fancy speech with you. We just separate the truth plainly. So I have been working hard on that over the years, and that's been really joyful and liberating. So those are the big ones that come to mind for sure, right?

01;21;53;17 - 01;21;56;28
Andrew Arndt
Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

01;21;57;01 - 01;21;59;18
Joshua Hoffert
Any last thoughts? More?

01;21;59;21 - 01;22;05;04
Murray Dueck
No, I mean, that's I mean no, that's great. If I ask anything else, we're going to be here in a minute.

01;22;05;04 - 01;22;07;18
Andrew Arndt
But I want to let him go eventually. Yeah, yeah.

01;22;07;18 - 01;22;18;11
Murray Dueck
We'll have to have you back, Andrew. Into the, the sacrament of. Yeah, this communication of the heart with people. Yeah, that's that would be awesome to talk about. Yeah. I mean, among many other things that just. We didn't get a chance. Yeah.

01;22;18;11 - 01;22;37;26
Andrew Arndt
And there's a whole thing about the miraculous here. I think it's interesting to talk about. You know, they can they really do teach us how to be charismatic in the right kind of way. And they the way they move in the miraculous. But it's done so differently than what we'd see. And a lot of what qualifies as charismatic in our day.

01;22;37;26 - 01;22;39;14
Andrew Arndt
It shocks us in all the right ways.

01;22;39;14 - 01;22;40;25
Andrew Arndt
Yeah, yeah. You know, there's.

01;22;40;25 - 01;22;53;02
Murray Dueck
A there's a great say, let's do this one statement back to Tyler1. For some reason, he said we should have a contest to see who is at the most humble. For unlike some who call themselves charismatics, we do not show off our gifts.

01;22;53;02 - 01;22;55;07
Andrew Arndt
That's it.

01;22;55;10 - 01;22;57;10
Andrew Arndt
That's it, that's it, that's it.

01;22;57;15 - 01;23;01;00
Andrew Arndt
Anyway, I just thought, oh, it's right there. It's so perfect.

01;23;01;01 - 01;23;06;07
Andrew Arndt
You have a really encyclopedic knowledge. Photographic memory. Well, one thing.

01;23;06;09 - 01;23;13;18
Murray Dueck
I used to use it for rock trivia, and I've slowly been healed and and stuff, you know, these guys in there and stack. So it's good for something amazing.

01;23;13;25 - 01;23;15;11
Andrew Arndt
Amazing.

01;23;15;13 - 01;23;18;06
Andrew Arndt
Well, I love talking with you guys. Thank you for having me.

01;23;18;10 - 01;23;23;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I Andrew, thank you so much for, for coming on the podcast and.

01;23;23;03 - 01;23;24;17
Murray Dueck
And tell us where they can get your book.

01;23;24;17 - 01;23;25;27
Andrew Arndt
Yes, yes.

01;23;26;00 - 01;23;39;07
Andrew Arndt
Yeah. The streams in the wasteland is available wherever books are sold, so on Amazon and, there is another one that I wrote before that kind of in the same vein and just learning how to die, well called All Flame, which comes from ABBA Joseph.

01;23;39;07 - 01;23;40;22
Andrew Arndt
Oh, right.

01;23;40;24 - 01;24;00;13
Andrew Arndt
So that's that's kind of how we're transformed by the Trinitarian God. And then I have another one coming out, if you don't mind me saying so. Yeah. The book coming out in the spring called, A Strange and Gracious Light How the Story of Jesus changes the Way We See everything. And so it's really looking at the story of Jesus from Advent to Pentecost.

01;24;00;13 - 01;24;20;13
Andrew Arndt
So using the church calendar as a framework and talking about the how the whole thing is gospel and how it how it transfigures the way that we see the world and transfigures our own lives. So lots of stories from my congregation. I do some good theological work in it, bring some literature and poetry together. It's like this. I've told people it's like a quilt that I made out of the life of Jesus.

01;24;20;13 - 01;24;25;10
Andrew Arndt
So, wow, that one's coming out in the spring. And that's and that's available for preorder on Amazon too.

01;24;25;12 - 01;24;40;06
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. Well, we'll put, we'll put, we'll make sure to put some links in the, description of the podcast. People can look up that all that stuff. Yeah. Thanks. And I be like I said, I've been going through streams in the wasteland. That's fantastic. Really liking it. And it is. Yeah, it's right back there.

01;24;40;08 - 01;24;41;23
Andrew Arndt
And I'm.

01;24;41;23 - 01;24;44;05
Andrew Arndt
Doing. Oh, sorry, I, I was trying to turn the lamp on.

01;24;44;11 - 01;24;47;18
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, I thought you were pointing at the, the the process right there.

01;24;47;18 - 01;24;50;24
Andrew Arndt
That it's a very. Yeah. Very dead brothers and mothers thing to do.

01;24;51;00 - 01;24;53;27
Joshua Hoffert
Hey project is it's inadvertent promotion.

01;24;54;04 - 01;24;58;07
Andrew Arndt
That's the best comment. Exactly. Thank you. Yeah.

01;24;58;07 - 01;25;23;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah that's right, that's right. Yeah. It it actually reminds me a bit of, I could always butcher the guy's name. John Cross. Savages. Savages is book in the heart of the desert, and, Oh is a good dive. We have that into, Anyway, so I'd. I'd encourage anybody to check it out as well. So. Well, without further ado, we will call this to a close.

01;25;23;11 - 01;25;41;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Thank you, Andrew, so much for coming on and and sharing your journey and sharing your heart. So, so tenderly and so, you know, just just, not raw is not the word I want, but, vulnerably honest. Yeah. Honest and real. Yeah, I love that. Yeah.

01;25;42;00 - 01;25;45;10
Andrew Arndt
Thanks. And but you guys, you guys set it up beautifully. Thank you for doing that.

01;25;45;13 - 01;26;08;14
Joshua Hoffert
Wonderful, wonderful. Well, everybody, thanks so much for tuning in. And, this this is, this will be essentially for our listeners, a Christmas treats in the holidays. And then we'll get back to the the daily grind in January of, weekly episodes. So looking forward to presenting this to the audience.

01;26;08;16 - 01;26;11;25

I think there's lots there. I'll teach you all things.

01;26;12;02 - 01;26;19;07
Joshua Hoffert
So thanks so much for sharing. And Murray, as always, incredible pleasure hanging out with your friends.

01;26;19;10 - 01;26;19;29
Andrew Arndt
Yes.

01;26;20;01 - 01;26;32;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. I can't wait until I'm back in DC and making all of the Fox. Yeah. So yeah, it's great. Anyway, everybody until till next time.

01;26;32;06 - 01;26;32;24

See you later.

People on this episode

Joshua Hoffert

Co-host

Murray Dueck

Co-host