Voices from the Desert: WE ARE BACK!

We are back! After a cross country move and many happenings on the farm we are finally back for more Voices from the Desert! Tune in as Murray and Josh revisit why they do what they do and what to expect in the upcoming episodes of your favorite desert podcast. 

For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/

For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/

To check out our Patreon and support us go to: patreon.com/VoicesfromtheDesert

Transcript

Joshua Hoffert (04:05)
And well, Murray, welcome back to

Murray (04:06)
I had a friend who was so good at it. well.

Okay.

What have you

Is it my turn or your turn? Beginning of a year, who does it?

Joshua Hoffert (04:27)
I don't know. It's it's

I don't know. It's been too long. So let's do it together. All right, three two one voices from the desert

Murray (04:35)
Voices from the desert! Desert,

desert.

Joshua Hoffert (04:45)
Whoop whoop whoop!

Murray (04:47)
You know, I can get my dogs to do that quite well. If I get a Sawzall out or, and you just hit a certain pitch, they just go nuts. So I'll try it out. I'll bring it one day and I'll turn it on and they'll just go, it's that pitch that, yeah, that's right. They'll, they're going to get in. They want to be in on this. So they'll be very happy.

Joshua Hoffert (04:58)
There we go, that'll be our intro, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, it's been, you know, it's been, what was our last, we did that. We did, we recorded an episode and I think we put it out in December, right? With, and yeah, sometime before Christmas, but that was the only episode we recorded probably from October on, I think it was been a while since we've recorded, maybe November. It was, that was with we've, there was some

Murray (05:13)
Yeah, somewhere before Christmas, before Christmas break.

Yeah. But then again, you have moved from Prince Edward Island to Chilliwack, British

Columbia.

Joshua Hoffert (05:30)
There was some major changes that have happened in the last four or five months. And so that there is a reason behind that. And here we are now and settling back in and we're actually we're we're in the grand scheme of things. When you look at the map anyway, as the grand scheme of things, we're quite a bit closer to you than we were before.

Murray (05:33)
Yeah.

Just settling back in.

Yeah,

you don't have any excuse not to visit me now. It's only two and a half hours. I'm only two and a half hours from Chilliwack, I think.

Joshua Hoffert (05:57)
Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah Although funny

enough the last time I saw you was after I flew in, know back in September So and now that we've driven through I haven't seen you yet. So we'll have to Yeah, that's I don't know who that I Drove all the way across the country. You know, you can drive down the coca-cola Mmm, no, no, no, no, we didn't know we crossed near Osoyus at the border there

Murray (06:06)
yeah, yeah. That's right! You drove through and didn't stop, although that was...

Did you come down here? Did you come down number one and pass me through Kamloops or no?

yeah, you're

in the States there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (06:25)
Took the three and

then basically hit hope there. hope is a city that we live close by now.

Murray (06:33)
Yeah, and often when

you drive past it, you're beyond hope. Bum, bum, ba. Yeah. Yeah, everybody says that joke.

Joshua Hoffert (06:37)
Yeah, it becomes a metaphor and bad dad jokes. Yes. That's right. That's right.

Yeah. Well, everybody, we're back to our, the podcast voices from the desert. I know you guys have been clamoring for a new episode. And I mean, I've been, I, five of you, I've been pretty surprised actually that people have been listening and catching up on all the previous episodes. I mean, we had

Murray (06:53)
All five of you.

I'm sorry.

Joshua Hoffert (07:04)
50 or 60 episodes, I think. can't remember how many, you know, I think you're supposed to keep track of those things and celebrate milestones. I do know that we're over 10,000 downloads. So I do know that that's amazing. Yeah. That is, that is shocking. So I don't know where we're at now. cause I don't necessarily track the stats. but I know that we haven't recorded since October, except for our Andrew aren't interview, which was fantastic by the way. Right. That was really fun. Yeah. So we'll have Andrew back on at some point.

Murray (07:06)
Wow.

That's amazing. I'm still shocked at that.

Yeah, that was really good. That was really good. Meeting a fellow traveler.

Joshua Hoffert (07:34)
That's right. That's right. Yes. Uh, what did he call the desert fathers were, um, cartographers, uh, cartographers of the soul. that what he said? No, it was, was something like that. I really liked his language. Yeah.

Murray (07:44)
like that. That brilliant statement. Actually that reminds

me to find, whoops, as you do that, a particular quote that I like.

Joshua Hoffert (07:52)
So, yeah, so everybody,

just, just, an update by way of things. If you didn't know, I have moved across the country from Prince Edward Island to back to British Columbia, where my wife is from. And we spent where God lives. We spent the first 10 years of our marriage. no, eight years of our marriage, 2000. yeah. Eight years of our marriage here. And,

Murray (08:08)
where God lives.

Joshua Hoffert (08:21)
We live now in Chilliwack, British Columbia, and close by to a good friend that we've had on the podcast a number of times, Steve Schroeder and close to Father Mike too. And so this was, this is where we've been for the last four or five months and the whole journey of packing things up, finding a new place, getting everything taken care of kids in new schools. And we drove all the way across.

Murray (08:44)
No, boy.

Joshua Hoffert (08:49)
You know, almost as far as you can go, there's only a few, there's only a few points that make the journey further. we have a chocolate lab that made the drive with us. took us about 10 or 11 days to make the whole threat, the whole trip. stopped and visited friends. we went and stayed in Chicago. We had deep dish pizza in Chicago and we had, we had Detroit style pizza in Detroit.

Murray (09:11)
that would have been good.

Joshua Hoffert (09:15)
With the place that all the redditors said was the best place to go. And let me tell you, I think it was called lose if I remember right. And that pizza was really good. That was like, if you're in Detroit, go there. That's the pizza place to go to. And, I've had a couple other Detroit style places and nothing quite, quite holds the candle up to that place in Detroit. So we, I mean, we made the whole trick, right? We saw Mount Rushmore at some point. I'm sure I'll share more about that on another episode. we just,

Murray (09:17)
you

Joshua Hoffert (09:45)
It was a jaunt down. almost did Yosemite, but it was just a little bit too far out of the way. And, yeah, we drove all the way across the country and, it was, it was quite the journey. Okay. Taking three kids and a dog, and making the trek all the way across. So Murray has found his book and he's, he's back on and, I had to grab a book.

Murray (10:11)
I had to grab a book. You said something that totally

twigged me to read a particular quote.

Joshua Hoffert (10:15)
Yes.

Yes. So, so yeah, we've we've made the trek. And here we are. And the whole journey, you know, from from making the decision to make the move, and then making our way all the way across and finding a place and everything. There's so many moments that were just god moments. I mean, we started the whole thing going, how in the world are we going to be able to afford this? You know, it's it's a

Murray (10:22)
probably Traveler.

Joshua Hoffert (10:44)
It's not cheap. Yeah, it's

Murray (10:44)
BC means, British Columbia means bring cash as I have been told by my American friends.

Joshua Hoffert (10:49)
well, it's more expensive here. And then it's also expensive just to get your stuff across the country, right? And and to drive across the country is no joke. So we I mean, people people donated, they supported us. It was just crazy how everything happened.

Murray (10:57)
Yeah.

But would it be cheaper

if Canada was the 51st state of the United States?

Joshua Hoffert (11:09)
Well, then we wouldn't have to deal with the exchange rate. So maybe we'll have to do a whole episode on the benefits and the detriments of that happening. So, yes. Yeah. Yeah. There's I don't, I think it is true. now been affectionately dubbed governor Trudeau. So yes, I don't understand how the guy keeps making decisions by the way. So didn't he resign and then he killed, he still keeps passing policy. like, how do you resign and still keep doing that? It's so shady.

Murray (11:11)
Yeah, we don't want to talk about that. Instead of throwing it out there, just throwing it out there.

Yes.

Welcome to Canada.

Joshua Hoffert (11:39)
So

yeah, well, that's right. Welcome to Canada.

Yes. We saw many cyber trucks on the drive. That was very exciting for, especially for my youngest or six year old. He's, he's a big fan of, I guess a big fan of Elon Musk, you know, although a lot of people are nowadays. Yeah. But his, his, his fandom has nothing to do with the department of government efficiency. His fandom has to do with the lines on the cyber truck. And so this is what I found out. Okay. This is what I found out.

Murray (11:48)
really? That's cool.

Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (12:14)
I was trying during Christmas to get a hot wheel, Cybertruck hot wheel for, um, our youngest son. And, they've become very collectible. So people sell them for like a hundred dollars, $50 online, but you can go, if you can find them in the store, you just pick them up and then go sell them on eBay or whatever. If you do that and, uh, people, people are doing that. So you can go buy a hot wheel Cybertruck in the store for 2 99. If you can find it.

Murray (12:30)
my.

Joshua Hoffert (12:44)
Right. But if, if you're trying to buy one for your kid, you're probably going to have to spend 50 bucks on it. So it's like, Oh my gosh, of course people have done this. So, uh, so that's been, uh, that's been the last four or five months for us. And now we're here in Chilliwack. We're, uh, we're reestablishing. Very yes. That's right. Maybe, maybe not even quite an hour. Yeah. Something like that. So West coast of Canada.

Murray (12:50)
Wow.

We're just very close to Vancouver everybody, it's probably an hour out, probably not even.

Joshua Hoffert (13:14)
And, yeah, that's been good being back and connecting with old friends. And now we're relaunching the podcast. And one of the big things that we have coming down the pipe with the podcast is we're putting together a Patreon. And, so the Patreon will grant access to previously unseen content. And, the Patreon subscribers, when we have the Patreon ready to go, it's almost there. When we have it ready to go, we'll.

Murray (13:27)
Mmm, yes.

And you can ask

questions and interact with us and we'll do that all through the Patreon.

Joshua Hoffert (13:44)
people ask questions, you'll get. That's right.

You'll get access to all the videos, all this kind of stuff like we've got we've got

Murray (13:52)
And eventually we'll actually,

I mean, we'll see how that goes, but we always joke we should have always filmed the first hour, because we always talk about all this stuff and then, and I regret it now that we didn't, because, moving forward, yes we did, yes we did, we did it again.

Joshua Hoffert (14:00)
Yeah, that's right.

And we did it today, right? We did it today. Yeah. Yeah.

So you get, I w want to record Murray's candid responses to some of the topics I present to him. So yeah, that he's not Murray's not in, he's, doesn't follow the charismatic news anymore. And so yeah, at all, which is good. Yeah. And I don't, I saw like, yeah, yeah, that's right. What the heck happened?

Murray (14:17)
Yes, that I don't.

at all which may offend some of you but so you know the judge tells me I'm like what is going on no one me about that

Joshua Hoffert (14:35)
Yeah, that's right. So

I want to record these moments and offer them to our Patreon subscribers.

Murray (14:40)
Yeah. You know,

there's two versions of Mennonites, I will say. And you know, I haven't been into a Mennonite church for 30 years, just so you know. But I still, you it's a genetic thing. So there is the Mennonite guy that goes to church and works hard and, you know, keeps his heart shut down. And then there's a Mennonite guy who plays hockey and beats the crap out of everybody and kicks him in the back of the shin pads. Because when you're, all is fair. And all that pent up stuff comes out. So.

Joshua Hoffert (15:01)
Ha

Yes.

Murray (15:09)
Depending on what it is you share with me that I don't know coming, you might get either one those guys. Because it's like, what? Pull the shirt over the head and start punching like in hockey.

Joshua Hoffert (15:14)
That's right, that's right. And you know what, Murray? You know what, Murray? That's right.

You know what, Murray? I love both versions of you.

Murray (15:24)
well thank you.

One is maybe, I was going say one is probably more redeemed than the other but that's probably not true. They're just needing redemption in different ways, we'll just say.

Joshua Hoffert (15:33)
Hey, I, what was

it? Um, I think it's Jim Wilder who said one time, uh, it was a, was in a book. I don't know which one anyway. He's connected with Michael Sullivan. We'll have Michael back on the podcast. Uh, he said, um, you know, anger is not so much a bad thing. Jesus got so angry one time that he healed a guy. And so if that's the outlet of your anger, like, you know, great. Yeah, that was rude. Yeah.

Murray (15:54)
Ha

I hadn't thought about that. That's brilliant. It's probably paraplegic. It's probably

talking about the paraplegic.

Joshua Hoffert (16:04)
Yeah, well, the man with the withered hand, that's the one he got so angry. He healed them. Yeah. He got angry. Said he actually, it's the same word that it's used in Romans one when it says that God's revealed his wrath against all of mankind. Jesus was full of rat. Yeah. Yeah. It's a really strong word. Yeah. He got so angry. He healed someone. So if that's the outlet of your anger, I don't think you have a whole lot to worry about. So yeah. Yeah, that's right. So

Murray (16:08)
is it?

really? Are you serious? That's the same word? Wow!

Very fascinating, that's fascinating.

Joshua Hoffert (16:31)
So anyway, everybody, we're we are here and we're, we're starting on a whole new season, I guess, if you will. And we've got a few, we've got a few guests lined up that I'm really excited for working on. Michael Sullivan's going to be back. We've got Bishop Andrew Bishop, Andy Miller, Andrew Miller, who started heart sink. My wife works with heart sink. and that's a brilliant, brilliant approach to, to inner healing and, and

Murray (16:54)
Yeah, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant.

Joshua Hoffert (17:01)
rest and bringing the soul back into alignment with Jesus. we've got David Tackle is going to be on the podcast. We've been in contact with him. Hopefully we'll nail that down. And, he's a great, writer on spiritual formation. just a wealth of information we've got, there's a number of people that we have lined up, that I'm really excited about and are going to be just excellent, excellent guests to have on the podcast. And so we've got stuff coming down the pipe, that I'm excited about.

Murray (17:07)
Mmm.

Joshua Hoffert (17:30)
And, and yeah, so what's new on the farm, Murray? What have, what have people missed?

Murray (17:36)
Wow, boy, it's been a couple tough, February's been a tough month. So we had a pipe break and flood the bottom of the house, not this house, the other one. So then we had to get insurance to come in and try to pay for that. And then they said no, and then they said yes, and now there might be asbestos in the walls. so that's where that is. And then last week, the pump broke in the well, cracked off this pipe, fell into the

Joshua Hoffert (17:38)
You

man, one thing after another.

Murray (18:03)
well and then pumps seemed to work got it out it didn't work shorted out had to buy a new pump $2,500 and then went to get it car didn't work good story good ending and then then the the company that sells the pumps as well if you don't have it installed by a professional then it's going to avoid your warranty and then you get hold of those guys add another $1,500 to that and then the pump that didn't work i had brought it into

Joshua Hoffert (18:16)
my gosh.

man. Right, right.

Murray (18:33)
repair place. I figured wow, Maze will keep it as a backup. Turns out there was nothing wrong with it. Cost me 80 bucks. And yeah, so yeah, it's been that crazy, hey? Because yeah, thank you, Lord. Because that's last two weeks, everybody, right there. That's the last two weeks of my life. but yeah, absolutely.

Joshua Hoffert (18:41)
There we go. Right. God redeems all things. Even water pumps.

Yeah, that's only the last like two weeks.

Yeah, that's Eden's Way Farm Sanctuary, by the way, which you can look up on. You can Google that.

You can look it up on Instagram as well, and you'll see pictures of the animals and Murray and his wife, Jay run a recovery farm for animals that have been through different abusive situations. And I was out there visiting. They've got cows and all kinds of cool stuff. Yeah. And they've got a sheep that doesn't realize it's a sheep and, you know, thinks it's a dog and

Murray (19:10)
Yeah.

Yup, peacocks and cows and thinks it's a dog. Yeah, I got some turkeys now that were

saved from... Let's just say the person who owned these turkeys had named both of them after a mass murderer.

Joshua Hoffert (19:29)
Okay, alright, well...

Murray (19:31)
So now they are named after saints. I converted them, or jaded.

Joshua Hoffert (19:35)
So you saved them and they've been saved. Yes.

Murray (19:38)
That's right, so it's like,

for all of you out there that just went, what? Like, yeah, animals can get abused and they need people to care. First calling in mankind to everybody is what? Creation care. So that's a thing we should introduce. We should have a thing with Jay one day and talk about that. That would be an interesting topic. So anyway, yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (19:45)
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right.

Yep. That's Genesis one, two, and three, right?

That would be a really interesting topic. That's right.

So we'll put it on the schedule. We just got another new topic that's coming down the pipe then I guess. So, you know, all kinds of things. Yeah.

Murray (20:09)
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of been written on that. think people don't realize

that, I mean, you know, if I say any more about it, we're going to get off on a tangent here, let's just say the lion and the lamb are not... So go ahead.

Joshua Hoffert (20:18)
Yeah, suffice it. Just read the stories. Yeah. Well, read the stories about

Francis of Assisi, right? And you'll see there's lots of animals involved in those stories. And, know, some people might say they're apocryphal, but a lot of them are right from the early followers. Like that say they saw it firsthand accounts. Like, you know, I've got this

Murray (20:27)
and animals.

Well, Father

Mike told me that his spiritual father who lives, you know, kind of in a hut up on a mountain, that the wild birds just land on him all the time. They just sense the great, yeah, the omnibus, this book. It's huge. But yeah, the wild animals just, yeah, come up and land and, yeah, they don't feel once mankind has got the knowledge of the tree of good and evil worked out, those passions, they sense that piece of Christ and they go, hey, that guy over there is shining like Jesus. Maybe I'll walk over and let him pet me.

Joshua Hoffert (20:48)
St. Francis of Assisi, the omnibus of sources. Yep.

That's right.

It's

yeah, yeah, it's a It's a thing. It's a thing so well

Murray (21:11)
So you read a lot about that stuff everybody. Look out, read everybody,

read St. Jerra, it's like Geronimo, but it's Geresimo and Jordain's the lion. And that's one of my favorite, Jordain's. He gets named after the Jordan River the lion. And it's a good story, read that. You'll type it in on Google, it'll come up.

Joshua Hoffert (21:25)
Garroth, yeah, I know what you're talking about. He's... Yep.

Yep. That's another one. Yeah. Well,

that's, that's, mean, that's kind of what we do here at Voices from the Desert, right? We love studying the rhythms of the early church fathers, the ancient way. I think that Voices from the Desert, we're kind of pulling off the desert tradition of desert monasticism, but really the desert being the barren place of the heart.

that God comes in and terraforms and comes alive to his kingdom. And so what we do at Voices from the Desert is we like to talk about that journey, whether it's the stories that everybody can, you know, each one, each person has a story of how the Father met you and terraformed that inner, that inner barrenness. What I was struck just the other day about how in Mark 1, Jesus goes into the wilderness and all the people follow him when they hear about him.

Murray (21:59)
Mmm. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (22:25)
So it's like the wilderness is the place where Jesus goes and people encounter him. Right? It's another, just another layer of that. And, so that, you know, that's really what we mean by voices from the desert, but we thought as we're kind of, you know, we've taken such a long hiatus and we're getting back into the swing of things. just talk about refreshing and revisiting why we do what we do.

Murray (22:34)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (22:51)
And, you know, for all the listeners that are kind of current up to date, maybe we kind of we talked it long form in the episodes one and two about our story and journey and how we came to the place that we're at. But just, know, in brief, Murray, why do we do what we do? And here at the podcast, but even just generally speaking in kind of all the all the things that we're endeavoring to

Murray (22:55)
Hmm

Joshua Hoffert (23:18)
All of our endeavors, guess, not endeavoring to, all of our endeavors.

Murray (23:22)
Okay, well, I'm gonna read you a crazy quote with that that I just realized.

Because it's such a good question, how did we get into this? And Father Mike was always fond of saying the Orthodox Church and the Vineyard Movement are on different streets, but we share a back alley. And what did he mean by that? And it's true. Because the Orthodox Church are, we should say, the Desert Fathers. We'll use that term, the patristics.

Joshua Hoffert (23:45)
Right. Yeah.

Murray (23:58)
You know, they're as charismatic as we are. And that's very important, because I dream, I pray for people, they fall over. That stuff just isn't gonna stop happening. I prophesy, I see things, it's not going away. there's orthodoxy, right, thinking and orthopraxy. So there's my orthopraxy, that's what I do, it works. But what's my belief system that's flowing out of? What's my orthodox here? And so...

Joshua Hoffert (24:02)
Yeah.

Right.

That's right. Which actually influences

what you do. So.

Murray (24:27)
That's right. So how

we think, what we believe influences what we do. So whatever your core value is, you're going to do. Right? That's, you know, that's a good lesson for another day. But, so, but I'm going to read you this. Yeah. So I'm going to read you a couple of quotes here. so this is, first John three, two to three. How about that? These are my notes for Wednesday night. dear friends, now we are children of God.

Joshua Hoffert (24:39)
Or go back and listen to the last 60 episodes and you'll catch on to that too. Yeah.

There you go.

Murray (24:57)
and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." So think John's encounter of Christ in the book of Revelation, right? All who have this hope in him purify themselves just as he is pure. Okay, so this purity thing, what's this all about? Why is that important? know, once we're saved, aren't we always saved? Like, once we start walking with Christ, you know?

Joshua Hoffert (25:19)
Hmm.

Murray (25:25)
Do I need inner healing? Do I gotta work on my heart? Like, what's that all about? But, so I'm gonna mess you all up by quoting good old Ignatius of Antioch. So this is a disciple of the Apostle John, I believe, direct relationship. I think Ignatius of Antioch, according to tradition, is the kid that Jesus put on his lap when he said, unless you become like a little child. So, now he's a pretty old guy at this point. He's about 90, maybe.

Joshua Hoffert (25:29)
Right.

That is, yeah, that's the story.

Murray (25:55)
even older than that. And he has a dream that his pillow catches on fire and he knows because of this dream he's gonna be murdered. Right? He just... is it? I'm sorry. No, no, I don't think so.

Joshua Hoffert (26:01)
That's polycarp. That's polycarp.

Ignatius met, yeah, polycarp is the one who has the dream of the pillow catching on fire. The martyrdom of polycarp.

Murray (26:12)
so anyway,

well Ignatius knows his captors from a dream are coming to get him and he's waiting and he's prepared this big meal and he's, hey guys, let's have this big meal. And they're taking him off in chains to Rome and he's got to walk all the way from Antioch, I think. I mean, that's a long walk. And he writes a letter to his followers and this is what he says. It is better, because they're trying to bribe people to get him out. You know, they're going to, we're going to just bribe people, we'll get you free. And he says this to them.

Joshua Hoffert (26:39)
Right. Right.

Murray (26:57)
So in other words, he's saying that when I go there, I'm truly alive. But if you make me stay here, it's like being dead. Right? He's flipping it around.

Joshua Hoffert (27:02)
Right. Right.

Murray (27:11)
Suffer me to receive the pure light. When I shall have arrived there, I shall become a human being. Suffer me to follow the example of the passion of my God. I will become a human being. So in other words, okay, what are we now then? And the point is that we are all in the process of birth pangs upon us, as he said. And you could think of this life being here as like being in the womb.

Joshua Hoffert (27:34)
Yeah.

Murray (27:40)
in which we are being formed and being developed, and then we are birthed into who we really are. And that's an important thing. That as a charismatic, is that what we're thinking? Or are we thinking about our vision, our goal, our ministry, our calling, our destiny? Or are we thinking about becoming like Christ? See, these are different things, right? And so,

Joshua Hoffert (27:47)
Right.

Right.

Murray (28:08)
You know, with the Desert Fathers, they're as charismatic as we are. So I'll read you a couple things, just, cause you'll be blown away. I love this as a story. I love this book, everybody. If you ever want to get a really good book, Wounded by Love, The Life and Wisdom of Saint Porphyrios, who died in about 1994. mean, very, very recent guy. But, so, in the story I'm gonna read you, he's a young punk. Yes, yeah, definitely is.

Joshua Hoffert (28:19)
Which one is it?

yeah, your new one.

Is he an Athonite guy? Yeah, okay.

Murray (28:39)
Although I think he spent his life working in a hospital in Athens, I think. And he got really, really sick and he couldn't eat the food on Mount Athos anymore, basically. I think that's how the story goes. So here he is as a young punk on Mount Athos. He hasn't left yet. And he has this experience. Now how many of you charismatics would love to have this experience? One morning about half past three I went to, and I don't know what all these rooms are, but I went to the Catholicon.

Joshua Hoffert (28:43)
Okay, right.

Okay, right.

Murray (29:06)
to the Holy Trinity Church for the service. It was still early. The bell had not yet been sounded. No one was in the church, and I sat in a narthex beneath a stairway. I was hidden from sight and was praying. All of a sudden, the church door opened, and in walked a tall elderly monk. It was old Demas. As soon as he entered, he looked around and saw no one. So then, holding a large prayer rope, he started to make rhythmic prostrations, rapid and numerous, and at the same time repeating continually, Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me.

Joshua Hoffert (29:15)
and Arthex is the entry. Yeah.

Murray (29:36)
After a

He was bathed in grace and he shone in light. That was it. Immediately his prayer was communicated to me. Immediately I entered into the atmosphere surrounding him. He hadn't seen me. Listen, I was deeply moved and I started to shed tears. The grace of God came upon my pitiful and worthless self. How can I describe it to you? He transmitted the grace of God to me. The grace that Saint possessed radiated into my soul. He transmitted to me his spiritual gifts of grace.

So old Demas had fallen into ecstasy. It happened without his willing it. He couldn't control his experience. That's not right either. What am I saying? I can't express it. It's a seizure by God. Divine catalepsy. You know, again, think Toronto Airport. These things cannot be explained. They cannot be explained at all. And if you explain them, you fall very wide of the mark. No, they cannot be explained, nor can you be rendered in books. OK, so I'm going to just read the...

Result of this after this service I went into the forest alone full of joy and exultation madness I walked towards the hermitage silent in prayer I ran through the forest passionately jumping for joy and stretching out my arms wide in enthusiasm And I shouted out loud glory to God. good glory to God. good If you had seen me from behind you would have seen a cross my head was lifted high I raced as if taking off to the heavens. I wanted to fly what I'm telling you is true

And then this happens.

I took their backpacks. How did you know we were coming? the elder. I didn't reply. But when we arrived at the hermitage, I approached the father, Pentamelion, and secretly told him, I don't know how to explain this to you. But when you were on the other side of the hill, I saw you loaded with your backpacks. And I ran to meet you. The hill was like a pane of glass. And I saw right through it. And I saw you on the other side. And the gift of divine sight had passed from old Demas to him.

Joshua Hoffert (32:30)
Well, there you go.

Murray (32:32)
Yeah. here's what he talks about Christ. A little bit later we get some of his theology. He's got lot more ex-

Joshua Hoffert (32:39)
So here this

I want to just interrupt you real quick, right? Cause I want to make a point and I want to hear, I want to hear the rest of it. Just a quick side point. Cause in Marie and I have been involved in charismatic context for a long time. Right. And, and one of the things that I'm sure Murray's come across and I've come across as someone going, let me impart my gifts to you. Right. And, and so then there'll be an impartation line, a prayer line and you know, releasing a gifts and all this kind of stuff. And I want to point out.

And this is why we find these kinds of stories helpful to bring context to the culture that we see in the Charismatic Church is, is what happened here was a divine transference, if you will. Right. It wasn't the guy wasn't looking for a gift. wasn't trying to release a gift. He wasn't trying to make something happen. All he was doing was witnessing an intimate moment between the Demas and the Lord.

And he was profoundly impacted by the Holy Spirit in that moment. So there wasn't actually any intentionality in between the two in that sense. Right. So, so my point is Demis didn't decide to release something to Porfirio's Porfirio's was impacted by Demis's presence. And because he was impacted by Demis's presence. Now their context is the divine foresight or the divine site that Demis had went to Porfirio's.

Murray (33:45)
Absolutely.

Joshua Hoffert (34:04)
but not intentionally, not because they had a prayer meeting, someone laid on hands and said, I impart my gift to you. This is something that the father did sovereignly because he saw the passion of the two men or whatever. You know, it's a mystery as to why the Lord did it. My point is that it's something that was orchestrated by the Holy Spirit, not because we had a good plan for a meeting and we're going to do impartation and pray for people. And

Murray (34:16)
Yeah, yeah, yeah!

So yeah,

matter of fact, they're trying to hide that stuff and let God, so the old, know, in Elder Zacharias is, yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (34:29)
Exactly. Exactly. That's the back alley that father Mike's talking about, right? It's like, we see the

same thing happening, but there's a entirely different context. Yeah.

Murray (34:40)
Different culture. I mean, and

Demas, the old guy, lives in a shack on top of the mountain and doesn't talk to people. He's had a vow of silence. He doesn't know anybody. And because they believe Elijah is a man just like us, he prayed and it did not rain for what, three years and he prayed again, that they would believe that prayer is a number one calling of the church. And that in the midst of that lifestyle,

Joshua Hoffert (34:50)
Okay, right.

Right. Right.

Yeah, that's good.

Murray (35:09)
God does these things. Well, we believe prayer is something that happens 20 minutes before service and it's done by ladies in their 60s, mainly. Because it's not the work of the church. No, prayer is the work of the church. And see again, that's a different cultural context. And it's important to see. And I'll read you one more quote from this guy. Why I like the Desert Fathers. And believe it not, they have their own little cultural niches too, right? But I really like...

Joshua Hoffert (35:15)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

Murray (35:40)
His view of Jesus.

Joshua Hoffert (35:42)
I think as you're as you're flipping to that, one of the things I'll say is, I it's just the same with with, you know, we're gonna run the gamut with from from the reformers, you know, Wesley and and Methodism guide. Who am I thinking of?

Murray (36:03)
Calvin?

Or Wesley?

Joshua Hoffert (36:04)
Not Calvinism,

no, there's Wesley and Jonathan Edwards and, you know, some of the great reformers and then, you know, Luther and Calvin and all them. and you can run the gamut from them to contemporary NT, right? You know, you know, Anglican Bishop that everybody knows. or, or, what's his face? The, the, the word on fire guy.

Murray (36:08)
Hiya.

yeah,

Bishop Robert Barron.

Joshua Hoffert (36:32)
Yeah, Bishop

Robert Barron's of the Catholic guy, right? We can go there. You know, one of the foremost examples of that we can run the gamut. or we can even the, the, Orthodox guy who's, you know, kind of on the fringes there out in Australia. what's his face? yeah. Mari Mari, right? That's right. The priest out there, Mari Mari, very, very well known in the sense of, so these guys are all, you know, we can run the gamut in terms of who we're looking at, right?

Murray (36:39)
He's great. I like him.

yeah, Mori Mori? Mori Mori?

Joshua Hoffert (37:01)
theologically, practically, all that kind of stuff. what I think I could speak for Mary when I say this is what we're looking for is not theological consensus. What we're looking for are people that help us to know Jesus. And so we might go, okay, well, maybe we wrestle a little bit with this theological idea or this theological idea. mean, some of Luther's idea we really wrestle with. Some of Calvin's idea we really wrestle with. But some of the stuff he says, like Calvin says that the human heart is an idol factory. That's genius.

Right? That's really true.

Murray (37:31)
Yeah, the desert fathers

would all put up their hands and say, Amen.

Joshua Hoffert (37:34)
Amen. Yeah,

exactly. And so what we're doing is, and this is, in, kind of the next phase, revisiting this is that we're not going, you need to become Anglican if we start quoting NT Wright, or you need to become Catholic, or you need to become Orthodox, you need to become reformed, or whatever. What we're saying is we're looking at the scope of Christianity and going, who helps me to know Jesus? And who helps me walk this life out in a way that's profound and simple and loving and serving? And, and these are the people that we found.

Murray (37:56)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (38:04)
primarily, especially the Desert Fathers in helping us get there.

Murray (38:07)
You know,

and there's an old saying that is that religion isn't the worship of ashes, it's the preservation of fire. And C.S. Lewis himself said, every modern book you read, you should read two ancient ones. yeah, and you should read, he says you should read the Church Fathers every hundred years back. Because if it's the same humanity, it's the same Holy Spirit, he's probably saying a lot of the same things.

Joshua Hoffert (38:13)
There you go. Yeah.

Yeah, there we are quoting C.S. Lewis, you know.

Murray (38:34)
Like, so what has the Holy Spirit been doing and saying to the churches as he has walked with humanity? Right? And these are important things because we can get caught up in all kinds of things that are just new theology that are in our day, you know? And the Spirit of God's been doing a lot of stuff for a long time.

Joshua Hoffert (38:42)
Yeah.

Right.

That's right.

Well, that's why I know people are going to listen and they're going to go, well, they're just, you know, Murray's Orthodox or Josh's Anglican. It was like, no, actually we're just, we're not actually, but we're there. You guys know, I love Murray that, yeah, yeah, that's right. And Murray's talking about his Mennonite past, right? Is, is upbringing. So what we're saying is that we've found a lot of life in these writings. And, and so, uh, we'll reference all of them. Like,

Murray (39:03)
No we're not, to be honest. I'm a Charismanodox, as we've talked about before.

Joshua Hoffert (39:22)
And we'll study all of them and read all of them. So anyway, that's, that's what I'm trying to say about that. But I will say that, Solafide and Solascriptura are single-handedly responsible for the demise of Western civilization. So we'll get that one out there again. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. We did actually. Yeah. So I'll just, you know, just a plug. Yeah. Join the Patreon. You'll find out more.

Murray (39:38)
And if you're like, what? That's in a previous episode, you can look back and find that. Because we talked a lot about that.

Yeah, that's right.

Well, let me read this page on his theology, this is true. And I'll read you one more thing and then I'll shut up. So here's on divine Eros. here is, so what does this guy believe this Saint Porphyrios actually? Christ is joy, the true light, happiness. Christ is our hope, our relation to Christ is love, Eros, passion, enthusiasm, longing for the divine.

Joshua Hoffert (39:52)
Yep.

Murray (40:14)
Christ is everything. He is our love. He is the object of our desire. This passionate longing for Christ is a love that cannot be taken away. This is where joy flows from. Christ himself is joy. He is the joy that transforms you into a different person. Every charismatic out there is like, yes, amen. It's a spiritual madness, but in Christ. The spiritual wine inebriates you like pure, unadulterated wine. As David says, you have anointed my head with oil and your cup intoxicate me most highly.

Joshua Hoffert (40:33)
Yeah.

Murray (40:44)
Spiritual wine is unmixed, unadulterated, exceedingly strong, and when you drink it, it makes you drunk. This divine intoxication is a gift of God and is given to the pure in heart. See, there's that pure in heart thing again. What's that doing there? And you know, that word would pulse as if we're out of our minds, it's for God, but if we're in our right minds, it's for you. That word there is ecstasis.

Right? It's where we get the word ecstasy from, which is what he's talking about, that these things still happen. Now, to put all this into a context, just quickly, why is this stuff important? What's the different paradigm? Why does the Orthodox Church and the Vineyard, why are they on different streets, but they share a back alley? Well, because their view would be this. And this is, um, uh, yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (41:33)
This is something we really appreciate about

the Orthodox guys.

Murray (41:38)
And so I'll just read you this quote. This is, I would recommend everybody get this book too. The Orthodox Way by Bishop Callistus Ware, who I think passed away last year.

Skeptical about her way of life, for he himself was a great wanderer. Serapion called on her and asked, Why are you sitting here? To this she replied, I am not sitting, I am on a journey. I am not sitting, I am on a journey. Every Christian may apply these words to himself or herself. To be a Christian is to be a traveller. Our situation, says the Greek fathers, is like that of the Israelite people in the desert of Sinai. We live in tents, not houses, for spiritually we are always on the move.

Joshua Hoffert (42:25)
room.

Murray (42:34)
We are on a journey through the inward space of the heart. A journey not measured by the hours of our watch or the days of a calendar.

For it is a, sorry, gets me a little emotional, I don't know why. For it is a journey out of time into eternity, which is back to Ignatius, right? This becoming like Christ, this mystery of being like him, of the transformation of the heart, of traveling through the inner parts of our heart and seeing what needs to be healed and repented of, but then the glory of God moving in, this journey of becoming and experiencing like Christ, like.

Porphyrios is talking about. That's Christianity in the early church. And that's a journey we're still on, whether we want to be or not. We with unveiled faces, we behold his glory and we're transformed, right? From glory to glory.

Joshua Hoffert (43:25)
Yeah.

I think I could quote

the great charismatic prophet, Bill Johnson. I don't, I'm just being funny when I say it that way. did nobody take me out of context with that? Jesus Christ is perfect theology.

Murray (43:34)
Haha, yeah.

Yeah, see that's probably

exactly quoted from a desert father. I have heard that before from somewhere. Brilliant.

Joshua Hoffert (43:51)
Yeah,

it's it's totally it's totally true. And and that's when we look at the early church, and we look at the patristic authors. And we're trying to find the vein where people explore that. And anybody that points me back to Jesus, man, that's my jam. And right. And so that's, that's, that's the journey of voices from the desert is, can we walk with and find people whether they're ancient, whether they're modern?

Murray (44:09)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (44:19)
who helped point us back to everything is about him. it's, you know, it's in terms of contemporary, just contemporary Christianity, it turns into so much other stuff than Jesus. And that's frustrating.

Murray (44:42)
You know, my father-in-law

is really, Eric is really keen on saying that a religious spirit is a spirit that talks about anything but Jesus. It'll talk about church, it'll talk about meetings, it'll talk about vision, it'll talk about ministry, but it doesn't want to talk about Jesus. And that's kind of, the Desert Father's, know, Perpherius would go, yeah! And it's the bane of our existence in the Common Age, I would say.

Joshua Hoffert (44:52)
Yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's right.

Yeah. And our, so, and our goal with, in the sense of, if we could even say we have a goal, I don't know that we have a goal, but our, our hope is that these conversations that we have and the people that we bring on, like we've had Anglican priests on, we've had just your kind of, and a pastor we've had Orthodox priests on, you know, it's like, we're just run the gamut, right? We've, we're, we've got, yeah.

Murray (45:39)
We're looking for Charismatics of all stripes

and sizes basically.

Joshua Hoffert (45:42)
That was

exactly. that, and that's the, that's kind of the hard thing. I love what Steve says when it comes to, yeah. Well, and Steve, Steve would say that, he always bristles a little bit when people talk about their church being charismatic or they try and have a, a, you know, well, we're, we're the charismatic movement. And it's just the care, the, whole ethos behind the charismatic quote unquote movement.

Murray (45:46)
And Michael Sullivan would be, and Steve would be good charismatics in our own streams.

Joshua Hoffert (46:11)
was not a theological principle. It touched churches regardless of theology. And so one of our friends who we've talked about having on the podcast, and we'll need to revisit John Rodham, he was the parish priest of St. Luke's in Seattle, which is the Anglican church that was kind of spearheaded the Charismatic move into the Anglican church. And they had all kinds of Holy Spirit stuff happening there. So the whole thing wasn't a theological, it would be.

Murray (46:36)
Mmm, that would be great interview

Joshua Hoffert (46:40)
The whole thing is not a theological position when we talk about the charismatic church or the charismatic expression. It's an ethos that centralizes encounter with the person of Jesus over and beyond anything else. And so I think that helps us, it helps Mary and I to go, well, when we're talking with these people, we're not so much concerned. What can they articulate to write the right,

Penal substitutionary atonement or whatever right like we're not concerned about that kind of stuff We're concerned about how does this person help me and lead me back into the place of Jesus and passion for him And I think that's that's how I do theology anyway, and I think that frustrates some people Because they want things more clearly defined and we're just not interested in it. It's not I don't find it helpful and

Murray (47:31)
You know,

think I could, Tommy Tenney put out this book years ago, Charismatic Guy. I think Graham cooked it forward to it. And he shares his story in the introduction, I think it was, there's this church and they, I guess they become a little bit demon focused in there. guess worship's playing, and the two pastors are talking, hey, do you feel that? Yeah, I feel it too, yes, somehow the devil got in. Something like that. And finally, there's that moment where the worship stops and somebody gives a prophetic word and someone stands up and goes, Thus saith the Lord, give me back my church.

You know, and I think the whole charismatic movement in every situation originally is, me back my church. You know, I am real, I exist, I do things, I am here. And when we look away from Jesus to meetings or performance or vision or anything, you know, I think the Lord shouts that out. Because when he comes, you know.

Joshua Hoffert (48:09)
That's right. Yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, I'm I kind of think I wonder if some of the reasons why we end up referencing Orthodox guys so much is if we were to put a scale out there, you know, this is for the scale being your evangelical Charismatic Church, right and we put a scale on it how far removed every denominational Expression was right we'd go, you know, you'd go

Baptist and you go Luther, Lutheran, you'd go Methodist, right? And you'd start moving it away from your typical evangelical charismatic. And then you'd get to Anglican and the, and high Anglican. And then you get to Catholic, right? And I think about the furthest removed you could get would be Orthodox. And in terms of, terms of how your typical person has been influenced or what they've heard or what they've experienced, right?

So, you know, about the furthest away they could be as orthodox. So we're just going, Hey guys, you guys over here, not that different over here. Let's introduce you to some of them and what they talk about and why we find them helpful. Right. So if you, if you imagine that line, right, you're going, Hey, let's, let's bring some of these guys like porphyrios who's

Murray (49:43)
And again, their theology

is important on the heart and becoming like Christ. And again, just because we're talking about it, I'll share this story that we've said so many times. But I'll do it quick. I was picking on Father Mike. Why do you lock all your best people up on monasteries? goes, we don't lock them up. But they'll pray for 20 or 30 years. You can go hang out with them. And one of them will become like a friend to you. And they'll become your spiritual mom and dad.

Joshua Hoffert (49:48)
That's right. That is their theology. That's it. That's it. That is the theology.

Murray (50:12)
How do you find spiritual moms and dads in your church culture? And I sat there with a little drool dribbling down my chin. Because again, it's not a value. Mentoring is not a value. Becoming is not a value. And you see that? That's an ancient view of the church, even the Celtic church. Soul friend. And wouldn't that be nice to have that functioning in the church again in a situation? And you know, yeah, it's an interesting thing. And so I.

Joshua Hoffert (50:18)
Hahaha

Yeah.

Right, right.

Yeah.

Murray (50:42)
I remember Schmeman, I haven't read a lot of his stuff and the one I read I didn't understand at all. So I mean he must have died fairly recently. And you know was kind of a little out of the box thinking guy. And I guess he was at the World Council of Churches or something. And he's an Orthodox guy and they sat him with Catholics. And he said, why'd you put me there? And he goes, well we thought you would like to. He goes, no, no, put me with the Quakers. I must be amongst my brethren. Right? Because they're...

Joshua Hoffert (51:09)
That's right. Yeah. Which

would be early, early charismatic. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

Murray (51:12)
Holy in his Holy Spirit. That's where the vineyard came out of. Wimber was in a Quaker church.

interesting, Anyway.

Joshua Hoffert (51:22)
Yeah. And that, and that's,

yeah, that's, that's right. So, well, I think Murray with that, we'll call our relaunching episode to a close. there's yeah, there's so much more. Yeah.

Murray (51:30)
Now there's so much more we could say about that question of, why? But

there's things in the ancient church that I think, like mentoring would be one. A personal holiness would be one. A life of prayer would be one. There's three right there that, boy, as Louis says, read the Church Fathers every hundred years back and you'll discover these things. And that it would be great for us to pick those up. Do I want to grow a long beard and wear a man dress? No.

Joshua Hoffert (51:42)
Yeah. Yeah.

the the the first

Yeah.

Right, right.

Murray (52:00)
Do I want to throw

out all modern worship? No. I don't.

Joshua Hoffert (52:03)
I was sold to Murray.

can, I'll put on my cowl right here in my hoodie. Right now, or I'm a Sith Lord. Maybe that could be that too. The thing is those, those first four or 500 years of, of Christian quote unquote Christian theology, you don't, you can't find people articulating a theological position that, that doesn't fundamentally find itself rooted in a personal encounter with the living God.

Murray (52:06)
Yeah, looks... Josh can look pretty monkey. He's got a pretty long beard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can pull that off.

Joshua Hoffert (52:31)
Like you, it's, there's nobody that's a Christian in name only that doesn't come until later. And that's actually a, an influence from the pagan cultures and how they had holy men that you would go to. So you can track this in the desert fathers and the desert fathers ended up being part of the problem in that sense, because people went to them because they were super holy, but because they lived their life based on a practical encounter with the Holy spirit. So that was the, that was the, the, what turned.

Murray (52:41)
interesting.

Joshua Hoffert (53:01)
the Jewish world upside down and then the Roman world upside down were these men and women who claimed that God came to them. And that didn't just come to them in for 33 years or three years, you know, but that he kept coming to them. And, and, and then they showed the demonstration of that. They lived a lifestyle that was totally different. And then there was miracles that were happening. So you're going there, there, their whole position was

Murray (53:07)
Mmm.

Joshua Hoffert (53:27)
the personal gods revealed himself to us and then he continues to reveal himself to us. And they weren't hinging it on what Paul wrote. They weren't hinging, I mean there was things that they were hinging on that, right? But they were hinging on a practical revelation of what God is like through the person of Jesus and then he comes to you personally and individually. And you can't find Christianity for 400 years without personal encounter at the core of the ethos of

you know, quote unquote, the religion. not, it wasn't really thought of as a religion. It didn't become a kind of an official religion until, you get to the four hundreds. was, it was, this is a lifestyle that's changed everything dramatically. So we're looking at it and go, can we get back to that? That we don't have people who just go to a conference and say a prayer and then, and are convinced because they've said a prayer, the sinner's prayer that now their sins are expunged and they're,

Murray (54:05)
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (54:25)
and they're set for eternity. Like, that's not the point. The point was that God is personable. He's personal and relatable and He has come, He's revealed Himself to you and now everything's changed about you because you know Him and you know what He's like and you can say, came to me here. Christianity is an ethos of encountering the living God. That's what it is. And so we're looking for that in who we talk to.

And that in who we read and that who we introduce the listeners to because we want, we would love for our listeners to catch a vision of his transcendent beauty the same way he's come to us. And we would go, Oh yeah, he's beautiful more than we could ever say. And you know, Murray's current, current flame. that is, uh, uh, porfirios and wounded by divine love his book, which is one that I covet greatly.

even though I'm not supposed to because Jesus said not to covet. So, but that's where we're at. And you know, if that interests you, then join us for the journey and keep your, keep your ears tuned for more information about the Patreon that'll be coming down. That'd be a great way to get involved with Voices from the Desert and help support the podcast. So any last thoughts, Murr?

Murray (55:21)
Ha ha ha ha!

No, I think you said it all like I yeah, so we will I guess the best way everybody to think about like porphyrios or or These people we quote is that these people are your Christian relatives who fought a good fight to know Christ and heard his voice and were persecuted by the church everybody and and quite drastically so and But they believed that an encounter with God was possible

Joshua Hoffert (55:59)
Yeah, there you go. Yeah, that's right. That's right. That's a good way of putting that.

That's right.

Murray (56:13)
They gave their lives for it because of, like Prophirio said there, know, Jesus is everything. And for them it was meeting a real living God, Jesus, who was the way and is the way, the truth and the life. And there is this history in the church that's beautiful and glorious. And, you know, we want to find as much treasure hidden wherever we can.

Joshua Hoffert (56:20)
Yeah, he is.

Yeah.

Murray (56:43)
reveals who Jesus is to us because he walks with his church. It is his bride and he is committed to her. Amen.

Joshua Hoffert (56:45)
There you go, that's right, I love that.

That's right.

Yeah.

We try and be quite ecumenical in that sense, right? We're looking at all the voices and trying to find who's pointing our way there. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, we do need to. That's a good point. John Rodham, our Anglican priest friend is now Catholic. So maybe he'll, maybe he'll count in that, or he'll give us some good, some good ways to point there. So anyway, everybody, thanks so much for tuning in. We're happy to be back.

Murray (56:56)
Yeah, we need to drag some Catholic guys on though. We need to track some down. Some charismatic Catholics. Just play fair, because we really haven't talked to that camp yet.

yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (57:21)
Lots of stuff planned. Keep tuning in, tell your friends about the podcast and let us know what kind of questions you might have and what things are bouncing around in your head. Send us a message. You can find Marie and I on Facebook or Instagram or any of those things too. So, let us know and give the podcast review if you would, cause that's always helpful as well. And we love, we love hearing back from the people that are following along on the journey. So blessings are friends and until next time, God bless.

Murray (57:29)
good.

That's really helpful too.

Alright, I think that was still an hour in the