Where do we go from here? An interview with David Takle part 2

Today, much of the church practices a theology with moral law at centre of the gospel. How are we to reclaim a theology centred on the the actual gospel? Did God come to make a more moral people, or is the gospel about something more profound that that? Join Josh and Murr as they dive in with David Takle from Kingdom Formation Ministries.

For more about David Takle and Kingdom Formation Ministries, visit: https://kingdomformation.org/

To purchase books by David, including Copernicus 2.0, visit: https://humbleshack.net/david-takle/

To support Voices from the Desert, visit out Patreon: patreon.com/VoicesfromtheDesert

Transcript

00;00;17;22 - 00;00;39;02
David Takle
That's like going to the doctor and saying, I've got an incurable disease. The doctor says, what will you do? You're terminal. You're going to die from this. I have a solution. Now. And he highlights all of your symptoms on this computer. Hits the delete key. Wipes it off and says there. Solve the problem. No, that's not how it works.

00;00;39;05 - 00;00;45;10
David Takle
Jesus, come to save us from guilt. You came to save us from evil.

00;00;45;13 - 00;00;47;20
Murray Dueck
Oh, good. Good. We're good.

00;00;47;23 - 00;01;12;00
David Takle
That's what was destroying his family. What good does it do to pardon everybody if it doesn't get rid of the problem that ruined his family in the first place? That's what family.

00;01;12;02 - 00;01;37;29
Joshua Hoffert
So I'm wondering. I'm curious if, David, if or what you would say in terms of, you know, being 74 now and having walked with pastors and leaders and local churches and all of that. What are some of the ways, you know, maybe we've got a pastor listening who's going, yeah, I get it, but I don't know how to get my people there or I don't know how to get I don't know how to implement some of these things.

00;01;37;29 - 00;01;54;27
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Like, so what in in Practical Wisdom or in terms of your, you know, just experience. How do you you're a leader, you're looking at it, you're going, I want it, I want to move in that direction. I don't know how to do it. What's the, you know, what might you say to that person?

00;01;55;00 - 00;02;18;05
David Takle
Well, yeah, there's two main areas. One is, how do you bring anyone out of legalism, right? The second would be, how do you bring a church out of legalism? If you have like your question was, if the pastors on board at the pastor has, you know, she seen, the light and is learning to walk with God.

00;02;18;07 - 00;02;25;01
David Takle
Differently his, his challenges than trying to bring this to his congregation?

00;02;25;03 - 00;02;28;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

00;02;29;01 - 00;02;33;01
David Takle
You know, that that actually that you're talking about a miracle because,

00;02;33;03 - 00;02;36;24
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I was going to say that. Good way to get shot.

00;02;36;27 - 00;02;38;01
David Takle
Well, first of all, I'm going to.

00;02;38;01 - 00;02;41;22
Murray Dueck
Pull all your fences down, everybody. It's going to be great.

00;02;41;24 - 00;02;57;21
David Takle
The first problem is that pastors are really, really hard sell. I mean, for a pastor to make this transition is there's a big you know, they've got they've got so many years invested in teaching.

00;02;57;22 - 00;02;58;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;02;58;24 - 00;03;11;08
David Takle
Yeah. A legalistic, a legal centric theology. To try to back, to try to say, you know what? I was wrong is that's a tough thing.

00;03;11;08 - 00;03;14;11
Joshua Hoffert
To make in a way that have tried.

00;03;14;14 - 00;03;44;21
David Takle
To if the miracle happens and the pastor makes the shift he needs to, I'd say I think the first thing you need to do with your congregation is casting vision. You need to start asking questions, you know, and having little, just little slivers of truth, come out week to week about, you know, we've tried this and it doesn't work, you know?

00;03;44;23 - 00;04;20;10
David Takle
What are we what are. You know what's missing? You know, you know, talk about talk about things like, dysfunctional families. What's that? What's the solution when you come away? You know, you have a history of abuse. How do you get set free from that? I mean, you have to start casting a vision for, you know, it is possible to hear God, you know, and give some real simple, you know, non.

00;04;20;13 - 00;04;25;05
David Takle
What do you call it? Non, non sensational examples.

00;04;25;07 - 00;04;27;00
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;04;27;02 - 00;04;58;06
David Takle
People tend to think that hearing from God is like, you know, the ceiling opening up and, Right. You have to you have to normalize these things that, you know, that spirit to spirit communication is a real thing and that, we can learn to sense what that is. And, and that discernment is something that takes time to discover and learn and, it's okay if we don't get it right the first time, you know?

00;04;58;08 - 00;05;07;20
David Takle
So there needs to be, you know, permission to be human. There needs to be permission to be on a journey. You need to cast a vision for journey. It isn't just.

00;05;07;21 - 00;05;08;01
Murray Dueck
That's a.

00;05;08;01 - 00;05;26;13
David Takle
Very. It isn't just, you know, you got saved. And now hang on until Jesus comes, you know, and try real hard to be good. There's a journey of what is sanctification? What does it look like? Yeah. You know. Right. And so there's a lot of vision casting that has to go on.

00;05;26;15 - 00;05;27;19
Murray Dueck
And that's a great way to.

00;05;27;19 - 00;05;49;24
David Takle
Say go to I know the Bible passed you just like, go to the book of Ephesians and see what is God doing on the planet. God really wants to restore creation to himself. What does that look like? What does that mean? What does it mean for me to be restored to God? What does a relationship with God look like?

00;05;49;24 - 00;06;18;12
David Takle
How do you know we're not talking about a relationship with your favorite author? You know this. What does it look like to actually communicate with an invisible God? Well, how is that similar to human relationship and how is it different? I mean, you have to talk about some really basic stuff, right? But cast a vision for, you know, what's possible in.

00;06;18;15 - 00;06;21;06
David Takle
I mean, you are turning the Titanic around here.

00;06;21;08 - 00;06;43;15
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Yeah. You don't want to be just shuffling the deck chairs right on on the deck. That's right. So, you know, it's funny, like, in in the charismatic circles, you know, going Mennonite brethren and then vineyard and then that, you know, I find one of the the problems is, yeah, we do hear God. God speaks today, but it's always in the context of vision or winning.

00;06;43;17 - 00;07;05;19
Murray Dueck
So, I mean, you're not going to have somebody ever say, hey, I'm really screwed up and I'm struggling with alcohol. You know, like, no one's ever going to say that because that means you're weak and that means your relationship with God, that he's talking to you. You are doing it. So you're the problem. So, so hearing God's voice is always cast into it either has to be victory because you can talk about your problems in past tense.

00;07;05;22 - 00;07;28;16
Murray Dueck
I had a problem, but now I go, right? Right. And you build into your people this fear of anybody being real. Because if you praise God. Hallelujah, brother. Everything's great. God loves me, you know, without. And then you go home with everything hidden in your heart. I mean, yet God is speaking, but the you know, when that's model to you, it creates this, you know, environment of individualism and the terror of that doubt.

00;07;28;16 - 00;07;33;19
Murray Dueck
I said I just so hard. Yeah. You know, he also just being honest and real about life and.

00;07;33;20 - 00;07;55;15
David Takle
And he's also going to have to, the pastor needs to find a few individuals in his church that are catching the vision. Train them and, and then develop some small groups that can be experiential in nature, where people can literally share their stories, where it's safe to share their stories.

00;07;55;15 - 00;07;57;21
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;07;57;23 - 00;08;06;17
David Takle
And, and then experiment a little bit with hearing God. Let's have a group, like, show Davina here. Let's take a little passage of Scripture.

00;08;06;18 - 00;08;07;06
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;08;07;09 - 00;08;32;08
David Takle
Everybody should quiet for 20 minutes. Journal every anything that comes into your mind about this passage, and then we'll talk about that for another hour. You know, that's a small group. And after a while, people begin to tell the difference between the human analyzing a passage and a passage landing on your soul.

00;08;32;10 - 00;08;33;04
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;08;33;06 - 00;08;59;04
David Takle
Yeah. And then they begin to say, oh, this is how God speaks to me through the word at once, so they can hear God through the word. Personally, it's not just something to study and apply, but once it lands on their soul and God can speak to them, then what if God could speak over and above that and address?

00;08;59;07 - 00;09;25;19
David Takle
How does this impact your connection with that brother that you can't stand? Yeah. You know. Right. What does that mean? How about this person? You can't forgive? How could that feed into that? You know, and make it real in your own life? And I think small groups can help people experience some of this. Beautiful. Because it has to be experiential learning.

00;09;25;20 - 00;09;58;01
David Takle
We've we have found now we've introduced forming into some pretty, legalistic denominations and, and some of the feedback we're getting is like, oh my gosh, this is a big paradigm shift. So once people catch that and they say, I like it, though I like it. I like the what? I don't really understand it, but I like it, you know, and, and so, because it's an experiential course.

00;09;58;04 - 00;10;17;00
David Takle
People begin to practice listening to the word and practice listening for something differently than other than their traditional Bible study method. And, and they start to catch something that can't be conveyed in words.

00;10;17;02 - 00;10;17;29
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;10;18;02 - 00;10;26;04
David Takle
And and so it's that kind of because we're going back to how does a person come out of legalism at all?

00;10;26;06 - 00;10;26;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;10;26;24 - 00;10;58;01
David Takle
For myself, it was a life crisis. All right. And I think that's not uncommon. A lot of legalists have their world shattered at some point, and they have to decide whether or not to jettison their faith or look for a deeper meaning. Those are the kind of, choices in front of them. And, when you have this crisis of faith, you have to do something with it.

00;10;58;04 - 00;11;20;15
David Takle
And so a lot of people will go into therapy. They'll they'll try a recovery program. They'll try a 12 step program. They'll start reading books from authors they hadn't read before. They're going to conferences. They start looking for resources outside their church. Well, what if the pastor was that resource.

00;11;20;17 - 00;11;20;29
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;11;21;02 - 00;11;46;22
David Takle
Okay. So that when a life crisis hits, the pastor can intervene and say, let me show you a God that cares about what you're going through, right? And and how you can interact with that God for comfort and those kinds of things. Okay. So take advantage of life crises. Some people make the change just they're going through stages of faith.

00;11;46;23 - 00;12;08;23
David Takle
You know, you move from we kind of start off with this concrete religion. And at some point, a lot of us become skeptics, like, there's there seems to be some gaps here. What's going on? I went through that stage as well, just like there has to be something more than what I'm being told, because it doesn't quite match what I see in the New Testament.

00;12;08;25 - 00;12;41;28
David Takle
Right. Right. Another way people make the the leap is through experience in inner healing. If the pastor or somebody in the church knows how to do how to help people through inner healing, when someone has, you know, comes face to face with, a trauma that they can't resolve. Spend some time with the inner healing. And when they find out what God can do and how much God likes doing it, it opens another world to them.

00;12;42;00 - 00;13;04;01
David Takle
Then you say, this is just a glimpse of something bigger that you know you might not have seen before. So there's we have to look for these different cracks in the in the legalistic worldview and help people with navigating those things. Right.

00;13;04;03 - 00;13;05;06
Murray Dueck
You know.

00;13;05;09 - 00;13;45;16
Joshua Hoffert
I think that kind of leads us to maybe one, maybe the biggest question of the day. And you you alluded to it earlier. When we started talking about this, how, really the major problem is the way the gospel is understood. Yeah. And, so your latest book. Right. You've just you just you wrote it, you talked about that Copernicus 2.0 is is looking at the fundamental misconceptions about our major theological points and recapturing I, Copernicus, for those that don't remember full disclosure, I.

00;13;45;19 - 00;14;03;20
Joshua Hoffert
I knew the name Copernicus, but I couldn't remember what Copernicus was known for. So I had to Google a, so when I Google them, I went, oh, yeah, of course, that's a that's what the name of the book means, that Copernicus was the guy who theorized that all the planets revolve around the sun, not around the Earth.

00;14;03;23 - 00;14;37;28
Joshua Hoffert
And so the kind of the I from what I gather, I haven't read Copernicus, but from what I gather, the theory is were recapturing a theology that makes God front and center, Christ front and center as opposed to mankind, and for all of our our conceptions. I think lots of people think about the, the purpose of, for instance, the, the the purpose of Jesus coming was to, deal with the sin of mankind as opposed to.

00;14;37;28 - 00;14;56;00
Joshua Hoffert
And so man is the center of God's purpose, as opposed to the purpose of Jesus coming was to restore creation to the father or bring creation back to himself. And he's the center of the gospel story as opposed to mankind being the center of the gospel story. So anyway, that that would be my way of understanding that.

00;14;56;00 - 00;15;23;27
Joshua Hoffert
So when you're talking about some of the misconceptions, how what what would you characterize as some of the major misconceptions that get that get us so far off base? And, and how would you're articulate some of those? Yeah. And how do you see some of those things informing our practices in a, in a way that hinders spiritual maturity or spiritual vibrancy in our churches?

00;15;23;29 - 00;15;56;06
David Takle
Yeah. Yeah, I would, I would phrase it, I think, I think the problem is that most of the Christian world in the West has placed moral law at the center of the theological universe. And you can see this in the way that, that the gospel is usually presented. And I'm going to use kind of a oversimplified version, something, you know, when I was growing up, we used to have a track called The Roman Road.

00;15;56;08 - 00;15;56;21
David Takle
And,

00;15;56;25 - 00;15;58;05
Joshua Hoffert
Right, right. The Roman road.

00;15;58;12 - 00;16;28;03
David Takle
And so we would take a bunch of verses on to Romans and say, look, everyone has sent your sinner, shouldn't requires punishment and eternal damnation. But Jesus died to get you out of that. And and what you need to do is believe that and say this prayer says in Romans ten, if you confess, Jesus as Lord, you're saved.

00;16;28;05 - 00;16;53;05
David Takle
So repeat this prayer. So which basically says, I agree. I agree, Lord, that I'm a sinner and that I can't get to heaven without you. And I need your help. Please save me. Amen. That's not much more than that. Is the sinner's prayer. Then I tell you. Okay, now, in Romans ten, it says, whoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

00;16;53;08 - 00;16;58;28
David Takle
Did you call upon the name of the Lord? You're saved.

00;16;59;00 - 00;17;00;06
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;17;00;08 - 00;17;22;02
David Takle
Well, what happened there? Nothing happened to the person. A legal transaction supposedly happened in heaven. And believe it or not, I even read a current author recently who said, the merit of Christ is transferred to your account. So, I almost threw up.

00;17;22;04 - 00;17;24;17
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Right. Imputed righteousness. Right?

00;17;24;18 - 00;17;45;07
David Takle
Exactly. So that. So that somehow this legal transaction happens in heaven. So from now on, when God looks at you, Jesus stands between you and God. So you can't really see you. You just see is Jesus. And he thinks you're holy. So he got, I don't know, was just a mind game.

00;17;45;09 - 00;17;45;25
Joshua Hoffert
God winked.

00;17;45;25 - 00;18;18;11
David Takle
Him. I mean, apparently God can't see through Jesus. I don't know what that. So. But but there's this idea that know. Let's come back to the core of it. The problem facing humanity is you broke God's laws. That puts moral law at the center of your theology. Okay. And the only way to get past this is to be flat out forgiven for breaking God's laws.

00;18;18;13 - 00;18;54;19
David Takle
And you can do that because of something Jesus did. All right. Well. This completely. If you read the first three chapters of Ephesians, this is not what God's doing. He's not going around pardoning people. That's not the plan. The whole reason for creation is God wanted a big family of billions of people. All right. Well, the family went off and did their own thing, and they're not the family anymore.

00;18;54;21 - 00;19;34;19
David Takle
They left God. So God said, I'm not I don't I'm not giving up. I want my family back. And so he sent Jesus to seek and save the lost and bring them back. And God is recreating his family. Well, what is the family of God? It's children who want to show off family resemblance. All right. So the gospel is, that you can you can be adopted by God and be a child.

00;19;34;22 - 00;20;06;01
David Takle
How does that happen? Believe it or not, through death and resurrection. Read Romans six. You died with Christ. Christ didn't die instead of you. You die with him. All right. There's no substitution. In fact, there's a verse. I think it's in Deuteronomy that banned substitution for capital crimes. I'd have to look it up. Interesting. Yeah. It's actually against the law to substitute people for capital crimes.

00;20;06;04 - 00;20;28;12
David Takle
So Jesus was not a substitute. He's the forerunner. He showed us how this is done. If you die to yourself, you can be resurrected with a different kind of life. All right. Paul says we died with Christ. I am crucified with Christ. Why do you think Jesus said, pick up your cross and follow me? Yeah. We're supposed to die with him.

00;20;28;15 - 00;20;56;17
David Takle
Well, it means get rid of. And Colossians put off the old nature. Put on the new. All right, so we have this massive problem with the gospel, and it leads to a huge problem with Christian identity. You know, there's a there's there's two main versions of it that are awful. One is what Willard called miserable sinner Christianity. And that happens because of the transaction in heaven.

00;20;56;20 - 00;21;22;21
David Takle
You know, God, God cleared my record, but I'm still a miserable center. That's like going to the doctor and saying, I've got an incurable disease. The doctor says, well, look at your terminal. You're going to die from this. I have a solution now. And he highlights all of your symptoms on his computer. Hits the delete key, wipes it off, and says there, solve the problem.

00;21;22;23 - 00;21;35;29
David Takle
No. That's not how it works. See, God didn't come to save us from Jesus. Didn't come to save us from guilt. He came to save us from evil.

00;21;36;01 - 00;21;38;14
Murray Dueck
Oh, good. Good way. Good, good. Set up.

00;21;38;15 - 00;21;49;08
David Takle
That's what was destroying his family. What good does it do to pardon everybody if it doesn't get rid of the problem that ruined his family in the first place?

00;21;49;11 - 00;21;51;13
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;21;51;15 - 00;21;52;14
David Takle
Okay.

00;21;52;17 - 00;22;07;09
Murray Dueck
I mean, it's so. It's so right there. Right? You know, here Jesus is eating with sinners and tax payers. So the Pharisees legal issue, you know, look at you breaking the law. It's about justice. And Jesus goes, no, no, no. This is a medical condition. Exactly right.

00;22;07;11 - 00;22;37;16
David Takle
Exactly. Sin is a is a is a disease of the soul. And if you don't deal, what's that? Then you haven't solved the problem that ruined God's family in the first place. Yeah. Jesus came to destroy the work of the devil for not just pardoning people, for having broken the laws. It's a big difference. All right. So? So the other.

00;22;37;18 - 00;22;42;14
David Takle
That's miserable sin or Christianity where nothing changes for the person. And you go to church.

00;22;42;17 - 00;22;46;17
Murray Dueck
I think it Luther. Was it Luther that said, man is snow covered dung?

00;22;46;19 - 00;22;51;21
David Takle
I think he said a lot of things, like, like bolts and boldly.

00;22;51;24 - 00;22;52;22
Murray Dueck
Yeah. It's like and.

00;22;52;22 - 00;23;16;16
David Takle
And Luther, I want exact it's, you know, there's some nuances total Luther that make it hard to put him down, but but his followers mostly came up with the idea of weekly absolution. You really. I mean, you go to church, you take communion. You know, everything's fine. Now go home and try to be good. You know, and Catholicism is much the same.

00;23;16;18 - 00;23;41;06
David Takle
It's like, miserable, centered Christianity. You're never going to amount to anything, but that's okay. God doesn't care anymore because of what Jesus did. All right. Now, the other is what we call the two nature theory. And that's what permeates most of the evangelical world. Now that that when you get saved, a new nature moves in alongside your old nature.

00;23;41;08 - 00;23;47;00
David Takle
And these two fight. Now you've heard the analogy of the dogs, and you have to feed one instead of the other.

00;23;47;06 - 00;23;47;29
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;23;48;01 - 00;23;48;19
Murray Dueck
Oh, yes.

00;23;48;19 - 00;24;13;10
David Takle
Yeah. So you have this old nature. New nature. You cannot find a true nature theory in the New Testament. You do find a war, an internal war. But it's not against the old and the new. The old died, and you have a new nature. Both natures have flesh and spirit. Let me clarify. You know, I just this was like a revelation.

00;24;13;12 - 00;24;41;24
David Takle
It's just that under the old, under the old nature. The flesh dominates the spirit and crushes it because of sin, under the new nature. The spirit is now in control and has the ability to purge. What? The power of God with God to purify the flesh. It's a different kind of war. It's still flesh and spirit. But this is the new nature, and this is the old nature.

00;24;41;25 - 00;25;09;06
David Takle
They're completely different. You're not under bondage anymore. You're not a slave of righteousness. And you can purify the flesh. So don't. This is if you have a if you have. See the problem with the, the two nature theory is that you have an old nature that's irritable, irredeemable. It's never going to amount to anything. You have a new nature that's already perfect and doesn't need change.

00;25;09;08 - 00;25;13;21
David Takle
So if this were can't change and this world doesn't need change, how do you change?

00;25;13;23 - 00;25;17;17
Murray Dueck
Yeah, you're completely stuck. There's a wrench in the gears right there.

00;25;17;18 - 00;25;49;29
David Takle
Well, and that's where they reversal resort resort to willpower. You're going to handle this with willpower, right? Well. Try harder. Turns out right that the will is not autonomous. I love I love Dallas Willard's picture of the. Well, the it's under it's under pressure from thoughts, feelings, social pressure, even your body. And what condition that's in your will is.

00;25;50;01 - 00;26;16;26
David Takle
So you're you're you're asking the will to reform all the things that's under pressure from it. It's not going to happen. You can't get there from here. All right. Yeah. You need an entirely different scenario, which is a new nature that can cooperate with God to destroy the works of the enemy.

00;26;16;29 - 00;26;37;07
Murray Dueck
Wow. Yeah. I got gotta tell you, I just a quick little story right there, if you don't mind. I was going in the burnout. Everything was crashing. Everything and everything I tried to do broke everything. And. And so I was already on stress leave because I. I was in burnout, and, but everything else was break into my car, would break my computer.

00;26;37;07 - 00;26;59;15
Murray Dueck
And every time I try to fix it, I'm going to fix it. It would break, you know, and and I remember, you know, the Lord had given me enough light. I thought, okay, now it's going to get better. And I, I, I, as only a young, stupid young man can do. I, I was out for a walk, you know, and the country and I looked up at this mountain and there was that the sun was coming out from under a cloud, and there was a path up that way.

00;26;59;15 - 00;27;13;01
Murray Dueck
And I got it in my head for some reason, God was up there. And if I could just get up there, everything's going to be better. I'm going to journey. That's what I got to do. So I'm hiking up. I'm hiking up this mountain. I'm. Yeah. It's good. Yeah. You know, we're going to make it. We're going to do it like, well, right.

00;27;13;03 - 00;27;36;22
Murray Dueck
And I don't know what's actually happening. It's clouding over and I'm going up this path that I think gets gets to the top. And suddenly I come out of the trees. I'm at this crossroad of logging roads and it's raining, and my path has got and I, I look her, I'm like. And I yelled to God at the top of my lungs, you can't get there from here, you know, not realizing that was the whole point.

00;27;36;24 - 00;27;39;13
David Takle


00;27;39;15 - 00;27;59;23
Murray Dueck
And then, I did, somebody gets this verse for me, says, hey, I was praying, I got a verse for you. Can I come over and read it? Okay. And the verse was stand at the crossroads and wait, ask for the ancient path as for the good way. And you will find rest for a while. And there I am, on this mountain, standing at this crossroad, said, okay, something's going on.

00;27;59;23 - 00;28;18;04
Murray Dueck
And but what happens is I'm out with this person, you know, I'm still. I'm good. Midnight, man. Work equals love. That's that's the thing for us. And and, they asked me this, this simple question is I can't. Everything's breaking and I'm getting mad. Everything's breaking my car, my computer, everything. And they said. And they just asked me this question.

00;28;18;04 - 00;28;42;21
Murray Dueck
So any time growing up, everything broken, you had to fix it in your own will. And I'm like, all this stuff about my relationship with my dad. Oh, boy. Like, just for Street. And I never dealt with it, never looked at it, you know? And, suddenly I realized why I couldn't get there from there. And it's it took quite a lot, you know, there's a journey of healing.

00;28;42;21 - 00;29;02;17
Murray Dueck
I had to start and unravel this stuff and realize my will is not going to be able to do this. And, but that was a statement. I can't get there for a and I was so bad, like, oh, this is your fault. I'm trying my best. Get on it up there. Not realizing that, he had to rip out all the wiring for me to start all over.

00;29;02;17 - 00;29;05;16
Murray Dueck
So anyway, I just I just struck my heart to heart, soul.

00;29;05;16 - 00;29;29;12
David Takle
And all of this makes sanctification impossible from the legalistic perspective. You know, if you don't have a character character change, if you ever have a change, your identity. In fact, I've got a book on the shelf called Five Views of Sanctification. I had to read it in seminary. It was the most depressing book I've ever read. For these are five theologians, all right?

00;29;29;12 - 00;29;53;22
David Takle
From different, different traditions. Four of the only one that came close to us was the, the, Who, Oh my gosh. See, this is what happens when you get old. Your brain starts slip. But, who are the two brothers that were reformers in the 19th?

00;29;53;24 - 00;29;55;29
Joshua Hoffert
John and Charles, the Wesley. Wesley I.

00;29;55;29 - 00;29;57;07
Murray Dueck
Mean. Wesley. Yeah.

00;29;57;10 - 00;30;22;04
David Takle
The Wesley and theologian got it, got it. He knew you had to engage with God. Okay. For this process. Right. The other four, they would they would quote a lot of verse if one of them in particular quote a lot of verses about the Holy Spirit does stuff, a lot of verses that people have to do stuff. And his conclusion was, if you try really hard, the Holy Spirit will give you the the strength to do it.

00;30;22;07 - 00;30;56;01
David Takle
There's like, okay, that is so easy to debunk. How many do you know? Do you know what the rate of pastor burnout is? It's astronomical. Now, if anyone was trying hard, it's the pastor that burnout. Yeah. Where is the Holy Spirit helping them. Right. Something's not working here. This is not the path. But why is a leading theologian with a Ph.D. teaching this?

00;30;56;04 - 00;31;07;27
David Takle
It's because he has a broken Christian identity, a broken view of God and a broken gospel. That's the only way you can get that right.

00;31;08;00 - 00;31;14;13
Joshua Hoffert
PhD stands then, for pretty hokey degree.

00;31;14;16 - 00;31;19;00
David Takle
You know, if you've got a faulty worldview, you're not going to get there.

00;31;19;02 - 00;31;46;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah. That's right, I think. I think Murray may have cut out Murray from us. Yeah. He froze. We'll see if he comes back. Hey, everybody. Joshua Hoffer here. Murray and I have officially launched our Patreon. You can head on over to Patreon.com slash voices from the desert to check it out. You can support Murray, and, you can support the podcast by signing up as a member there on Patreon.

00;31;46;25 - 00;32;26;16
Joshua Hoffert
You'll gain access to the video podcasts long before anybody else will. That's right. We're recording videos of these and releasing them on Patreon long before they'll be available on any other platform. Also exclusive to our Patreon members, you will gain access to our free recording conversations. We've been talking about this for the last year and a half. About recording our conversations leading up to the podcast, but we're finally doing it so you'll get Murray and I our thoughts leading up to the recording, how we're planning things, the kind of things we're talking about all off the air conversations and and our conversations with our guests, all the all the things we've been talking about before

00;32;26;16 - 00;32;40;24
Joshua Hoffert
we start recording. Oh, we're going to record those and just candidly work through that the same way. So you'll gain access to that. And we'll be hosting digital meetups so that we can you can get to know us and we can get to know you. We'd love to hear from you. We'd love to answer your questions along with you.

00;32;40;26 - 00;33;05;14
Joshua Hoffert
And we'll be able to engage with you through our Patreon, your posts and comments and shares, and down the line, we'll be sharing resources with you, like pre-released book chapters and and book apps or excerpts that we're working on. So we have all kinds of things planned for our Patreon, and you can sign up now if you go to Patreon.com, Armed Voices from the desert, support Murray, support myself and support the podcast, and we'd love to see you there.

00;33;05;16 - 00;33;38;12
Joshua Hoffert
Now back to the podcast. How in that? So then in that sense, it the I mean, I think that the, you know, the pathway is pretty obvious and direct, because all of those theological conceptions then influence how we think and practice. Yes. So theology influencing it. Or the proxy, I guess. Right. Yeah. And and so, you know what.

00;33;38;12 - 00;33;57;24
Joshua Hoffert
What's that? So there's, there's obvious now if you're going, well, the Holy Spirit doesn't do this. I mean, Charles or John Wesley in his journals talks about he struggled and struggled and struggled and struggled until he had a personal moment that the Holy Spirit came through and touched him and he was set free. And all of a sudden it's like, oh, it's not my effort.

00;33;57;24 - 00;34;23;12
Joshua Hoffert
It's is like he he talks about this in his in his journals. So yeah, that the way that we think that sometimes we don't think that, you know, we were able to with I think the modern Western mind thinks we can remove, can remove I the way that I conceive of myself and the way that I live my life.

00;34;23;14 - 00;34;48;13
Joshua Hoffert
Those two things don't have to be one in the same. Oh, my. Yeah. And that's that's how people that I'm a good. I'm a good person, right. Never mind that. I'm planning murderous thoughts every time I drive down the highway, because I can't stand the people that I'm driving. Right, right. But I so I have one conception of myself that is totally different than my actual lived reality, but.

00;34;48;13 - 00;35;02;28
Joshua Hoffert
And I. And there's no wonder that, you know, mental health and anxieties through the roof. Right? Because who I who I am and how I live are to wildly different things. Murray, you didn't miss too much, but, now Murray's back. We lost him for a second.

00;35;03;01 - 00;35;08;20
Murray Dueck
Yeah, my computer died there. I got too excited. I just sucked all the power. All right. Welcome.

00;35;08;27 - 00;35;09;22
David Takle
Welcome back.

00;35;09;25 - 00;35;21;03
Joshua Hoffert
I, yeah, we were we were just starting to talk about how our how the our theories of theology influence our practice. And, Yeah. So I was going to toss that back over to.

00;35;21;03 - 00;35;22;16
David Takle
Yeah. Yeah. I like the word.

00;35;22;18 - 00;35;22;28
Joshua Hoffert
David.

00;35;22;28 - 00;36;09;18
David Takle
On that. Because it makes you think about, you know, it's it's an odd word that most people aren't familiar with, but, I, I like, I like N.T. Wright has a very simple but profound, model of worldview that our worldview consists of, I don't know, 4 or 5 elements. The stories we tell, the big stories, like how life actually works, the, the thoughts and beliefs that are embodied in that story and, the, the, the, the icons, the images that encapsulate that story for us.

00;36;09;20 - 00;36;32;23
David Takle
And what, what meaning we put in those and, and how does it how does that live out? What's the praxis? What is the actual way that we function and what people don't realize? Like you said, the, people often blame their head, heart split. You know, I, I know the right theology. I just live differently out here.

00;36;33;01 - 00;37;02;05
David Takle
Okay? The problem is that there's explicit beliefs that we can verbalize and there's implicit beliefs that we have, but that's our formation, how we have actually been formed and who we are deep down inside, which we might not even be in touch, where we might not be aware of. Yeah, it's so I can even verbalize. I can say, well, it's really bad, you know, contempt is a bad thing.

00;37;02;05 - 00;37;30;02
David Takle
You shouldn't utter contempt for people. And, you know, I can feel contempt for everybody. The bad drivers, the the, the, the people who can't get past their alcohol. You know, I, I'm, you know, I can be very judgmental and yet. Yeah, I know contempt, Jesus and contempt is a bad thing. So I agree with him, you know, so your implicit beliefs come out in your practice, right?

00;37;30;02 - 00;37;30;18
Murray Dueck
Yes.

00;37;30;21 - 00;37;34;12
David Takle
You want to know what you really believe? Look at how you live, right?

00;37;34;15 - 00;37;52;27
Murray Dueck
You know. And you know what's funny? Often, I think this is why death on the cross is so important, because I, I remember Morton Kelsey, you know, the old Episcopalian minister back in the day, he he told the story of, and it just always fits together well for me of this hiker. He's going up this mountain, trying to get to the top, and he comes to a part.

00;37;52;27 - 00;38;08;02
Murray Dueck
There's a chasm, and you get to the top. He's got to cross to the other side. He doesn't always going to do it. Suddenly he realizes there's a little cable from his side to the other, and he sees a man on a bicycle coming towards it with somebody on the back because of. And he's like, okay, well, that's interesting.

00;38;08;02 - 00;38;26;19
Murray Dueck
If that guy gets to his side, the rider on the back of the bike gets off and the bike rider says to the hiker, hey, think I can do it again? And hiker goes, absolutely. He goes, well, get on, let's go. You know that. Well, what's the you really believe in his heart in this moment, right? Like I could die.

00;38;26;19 - 00;38;45;21
Murray Dueck
I mean, what if he could do it again? I mean, what you say you believe and what's really in the heart are not necessarily the same thing. And it seems that under pressure, you know, in the death process, we start to discover that these implicit belief systems begin to emerge. Right. So, well, like, how do you. Yeah.

00;38;45;23 - 00;38;47;14
Murray Dueck
Sorry about this and how you were a.

00;38;47;14 - 00;39;06;21
David Takle
Very common example. There's, you know, almost any, any Christian that you interview, you would say reading the Bible is important and. All right. How many hours did you spend the last month reading the Bible? And they have a very different answer, right?

00;39;06;24 - 00;39;07;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah.

00;39;07;12 - 00;39;07;27
Murray Dueck
So where do you.

00;39;07;27 - 00;39;33;05
David Takle
Go actually believe it. You see, there's you can you can be have a very firm conviction about reading the Bible that doesn't impact your life at all. What is that? Well, I find other things more pressing. What it really comes down to, you know.

00;39;33;08 - 00;39;36;06
Joshua Hoffert
Or do I have other appetites that I'm feeding? You know.

00;39;36;09 - 00;39;44;10
David Takle
When I read the Bible, it doesn't really do much for me. And so I've kind of drifted away from that. I mean, there's something else going on. All right.

00;39;44;14 - 00;39;45;12
Murray Dueck
Right. Yes, yes.

00;39;45;14 - 00;40;10;08
David Takle
And so you have to get in touch with your implicit beliefs. And one of the ways is just paying attention to how you live, asking other people for feedback and how you live. If you have a safe group. Yeah. Or you know, reflection, meditating, read some scripture, see how it lands on you and think about right?

00;40;10;09 - 00;40;31;20
David Takle
Do I live that way? And if not, why not? You know what injuries or am I? Like you said, what injury? From my father is like, clouding my vision of God. Or you know what else? You know? I mean, we have to. We have to address these things and teach people how to address them.

00;40;31;23 - 00;41;04;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. I have a I just a quick story that illustrates that in my own life. The I was I was this is before my wife and I were before my wife and I were even dating. Yeah. And, I had feigned I was disinterested in her, though. We were friends. And I was driving one day, just a short little drive, minding my own business, and I had this thought flitter through my head that I had to recapture and think back.

00;41;04;26 - 00;41;29;28
Joshua Hoffert
What was that thought? You know, I it just kind of crossed the surface of my awareness, and I had to stop and pause and think and pull it back. And the thought was, I can't let myself be attracted to Aaron, because if I'm attracted to Aaron, I'll be in danger of repeating the mistakes of my parents, and I'll never let myself be hurt like I saw my parents hurt when they went through their divorce.

00;41;30;01 - 00;41;50;12
Joshua Hoffert
And and when I pulled it back and considered it, I went, oh, my gosh, I've been thinking that way for a long time. And that's ruled the way that I think about my relationship decisions. Yeah. And it was it was like I, it had been lodged in there for so long, but it was only God who pushed it right just there.

00;41;50;12 - 00;42;02;11
Joshua Hoffert
And he goes, it's the invitation, right to go. What was that? Yep. Like and I had to pull it back, think about it. And actually then about five minutes later, I got into a head on car accident and.

00;42;02;18 - 00;42;03;05
Murray Dueck
Oh my.

00;42;03;09 - 00;42;14;03
Joshua Hoffert
God, kind of further cemented the whole situation home. Everybody was okay, but wow, it was like, yeah, you know, it happened not because I was thinking about the thought it was someone pulled right in front of me.

00;42;14;03 - 00;42;14;22
David Takle
Right.

00;42;14;24 - 00;42;34;27
Joshua Hoffert
But but that significantly altered the direction of my life. And so I, I said to myself, I'm well, I'm not going to let I'm not going to let that thought determine my right choices from here on out. I don't want to be that person, right. I don't want to be. I'm going to I'm going to be lonely and hurt, right?

00;42;34;27 - 00;42;56;18
Joshua Hoffert
If I keep that, keep that thought. Yeah, that's the guiding direction for my life. So Aaron and I were dating about a week later, but I went to a, I went to a, spiritual father in my life. So this is what I'm realizing. What do you think? I think it's a good thing that you and Aaron would start dating and he help, you know, counsel me through that.

00;42;56;18 - 00;43;02;14
Joshua Hoffert
And I just turned on the juices. At that point, I was flirting with her like, no. Get out.

00;43;02;17 - 00;43;04;06
David Takle
Oh.

00;43;04;09 - 00;43;05;27
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I bet you heard about that.

00;43;05;27 - 00;43;26;26
Joshua Hoffert
I bet she liked what she really liked me. And and I know that she was kind of, done with my with my lack of interest, and I don't blame her at all. She was really frustrated, but. But that was that whole thing was I had this implicit belief and I, you know, and I could think back to every relationship that I was interested in.

00;43;26;28 - 00;43;47;16
Joshua Hoffert
And I realized it was I could control the outcome so that I'd never get hurt. And it was just and it would have been a terrible decision to go date that person or that person. And, and it was an implicit belief that guided my thought, guided my direction and my practice, and it was only the Holy Spirit going to pay attention to this thought.

00;43;47;17 - 00;43;56;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that. And now I'm, you know, we've been married for 16 years with three kids and are very happy. So I'm very happy that I did that.

00;43;56;11 - 00;44;27;03
David Takle
Yeah, exactly. You know, and I think in our healing, the inner healing process mostly deals with implicit beliefs. Yes. And so, like, you know, I, I relayed, relayed a story in, truth about lies where, because because of my family system and we all were very much estranged from each other. You know, there's five kids in my family, but every one of us will say it feels like I grew up alone, so.

00;44;27;03 - 00;44;28;19
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Right.

00;44;28;22 - 00;44;59;23
David Takle
So. And and three of the, my family members in particular just were constant adversaries to me. I just never it was a constant source of emotional trauma. And so, years later, as a, as a 30, 40 years old, I don't remember exactly what it dawned on me. You know, this isn't good for me to have this animosity that I still have for these family members.

00;44;59;23 - 00;45;22;06
David Takle
I need to forgive them. I need to reconcile with them. And so I started, I wrote letters, I called I, you name, I've tried everything. And six months go by, something else happens and I can't stand them again. All right? I could not get past this. It's like, and I over and I did everything. Any Christian counselor.

00;45;22;06 - 00;45;52;14
David Takle
What? Who told me to do. Well, at some point, it just. I have to be done with the Lord. And I finally learned about inner healing. Said, Lord. Let's try this one. I have no idea what's wrong with me. I cannot forgive these people. I can't stand them. I've tried everything I give up. What am I missing? God gave me an image of my family out in about 12ft of water, trying to float and stay and breathe and.

00;45;52;14 - 00;46;15;04
David Takle
And in order to stay there very long, they have to grab the person next to them and shove them down so they can, you know, use them like a flotation device. And, and then, of course, someone grabs them and pushes them under and there's all this thrashing and trying to trying to breathe. They're not being mean. They're desperate.

00;46;15;07 - 00;46;42;27
David Takle
Once I saw they were desperate and and it broke my heart. I had no problem forgiving them and moving forward. Right. It was like I had no idea that I had classified them as mean spirited bad people. Once that it's like they're not bad, they're desperate.

00;46;42;29 - 00;46;43;21
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;46;43;23 - 00;46;47;22
David Takle
There's a big difference.

00;46;47;24 - 00;46;49;05
David Takle
Yeah. And so.

00;46;49;07 - 00;46;49;14
Joshua Hoffert
That.

00;46;49;14 - 00;46;57;25
David Takle
Is God pulled that implicit belief out and said, you know, you don't you're not looking right. You don't see them.

00;46;57;28 - 00;46;59;06
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;46;59;08 - 00;46;59;26
David Takle
And well, that.

00;46;59;26 - 00;47;23;26
Joshua Hoffert
And that's the Nexus to me. That's the nexus point that we were talking about earlier of prophetic ministry, inner healing and formative practices. The nexus point is now I now through a prophetic moment, revelatory moment. Right. My heart is softened and now I've got a new practice of forgiveness that rises up. And I actually see things as the father sees them.

00;47;23;28 - 00;47;42;11
Joshua Hoffert
I no longer see them through my broken perception. I no longer see them through my implicit belief that I didn't even I wasn't even aware that was there. I think N.T. right also says that the problem with the worldview is that you have a worldview. Yeah, yeah. But I but that's the nexus point, right? There is not. And that's where I find so frustrating.

00;47;42;11 - 00;48;02;19
Joshua Hoffert
Being involved in prophetic ministry for so long is that people assume that revelatory things are supposed to predict the future and tell us what the outcome is going to be when revelatory moments are to soften our lens so that we see things as the father does. And now we have a new posture of the heart, which gives us a new practice to form us.

00;48;02;21 - 00;48;24;03
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. And it's like, that's the nexus that we're looking for. If those things became commonplace in our life, in our practice, the dynamic in our communities would change and shift dramatically, and then we wouldn't have to have the conversation. Well, how does the pastor help that happen? Or how do you get someone out of legalism is everybody's just naturally doing it because they've learned to flow in that this is this is what the Christian life looks like.

00;48;24;05 - 00;48;54;02
Joshua Hoffert
Is God coming, revealing, shifting and altering so that we see things differently. And now we have a new practice and a new context for how we live God. And you know, the thankfully, the like we were saying earlier, the groundswell has happened over years and there's more of this happening. And, I'm, I'm thankful that as a 30 years your, younger that you've set the ground for those things.

00;48;54;04 - 00;49;06;12
Joshua Hoffert
You know, I'm 44. Thank you. And, can go. Okay, well, you know, what can we do? Hopefully, by the time I'm 74, we're even further along.

00;49;06;15 - 00;49;09;10
David Takle
All right.

00;49;09;12 - 00;49;13;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Well, I, I mean, I guess. Go ahead, Mary.

00;49;13;24 - 00;49;33;21
Murray Dueck
Well, I was just going to say back to your comment. Oh, God. Wanting a family and how talking to him supports that. You know, you look at what Ephesians one, to paraphrase, I pray God would give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation that you may know the future. No, that's not what it says. Yeah. That, you know, I mean, no, the glorious father revelation has a point.

00;49;33;21 - 00;49;49;26
Murray Dueck
Family knowing, being known. That's its point. Yeah. Right. To draw us into into intimacy not just with us, but family, community and love and and and to have that as a focal point of hearing God's voice. I mean, that's how families work, you know?

00;49;50;00 - 00;49;50;20
David Takle
You know.

00;49;50;23 - 00;49;55;26
Murray Dueck
And I so it's a beautiful it's a beautiful just talking about this is such a beautiful thing.

00;49;55;26 - 00;50;06;25
Joshua Hoffert
So yeah. Well, I, I think with I, I don't know if you realize that two out to more than two hours has gone, have gone by. Yeah. That's just kind of.

00;50;06;26 - 00;50;08;27
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And we're just kind of scratching the surface.

00;50;09;00 - 00;50;20;16
Joshua Hoffert
I'm like, we could probably talk for another two hours about all of this. So but I think, you know, maybe we'll just leave. We'll just leave the rest for another time and we'll have to have.

00;50;20;18 - 00;50;22;29
Murray Dueck
Oh, it'd be great to continue this at some point. Yeah.

00;50;23;01 - 00;50;24;23
Joshua Hoffert
Absolutely, absolutely.

00;50;24;26 - 00;50;31;24
Murray Dueck
Oh, that would be wonderful. Yeah. Listen to this. Because, like, getting the pot was starting to boil there. It was starting to, Yeah.

00;50;31;28 - 00;50;47;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right, that's right. So I think yeah. So we'll leave it there. We'll, we'll call this the, the, we'll wrap things up here. Any any last thoughts, David, to share with, well, the people that have been left out of.

00;50;47;12 - 00;51;13;26
David Takle
What we've talked about hence are revolved around the problem of legalism in the Western Church and how it has blinded, people to what God is really trying to accomplish. And and I'd like to say legalism is not just a bunch of rules that other the church down the road doesn't have. Lee. Legalism is an ideology. It is actually a worldview.

00;51;13;29 - 00;51;45;03
David Takle
That's right. It's the presuppositions. And the implications of it are so far reaching. And as we've discussed in some of these theologies, like the gospel and sanctification and identity, once you begin to expose what legalism is actually teaching, it doesn't make any sense. As you begin to see this. This is so out of sync with the New Testament that there's we've got to recover the real thing.

00;51;45;06 - 00;52;04;18
David Takle
And so I think there's a lot of value here in just exposing that the, the, the vacuous, elements in, in legalism and how it leaves us dry and that the church is far more legalistic than it than it is willing to acknowledge or.

00;52;04;20 - 00;52;27;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah. And and even, you know, I, having done a decent amount, I've gone to India a number of different times. Have you know, were traveling in different places. I'm sure, Murray, it's the same. That so much, because, you know, we can say Western Christianity, but so much of Western Christianity is exported into third world countries.

00;52;27;22 - 00;52;56;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And through our missions agencies and all that, which is one, you know, wonderful that we get to do those things. But, you know, we have a responsibility in one sense that what we're exporting is actually, either going to have great dividends or it's going to recreate the same problems we see now. And, and so, you know, we do have a responsibility in the sense of, hey, let's deal with this stuff now because we're gonna have to deal with it in other countries in the future.

00;52;56;10 - 00;53;16;23
Joshua Hoffert
They're going to have the same problems that we have where you see this rapid growth of Christianity. But is what's underpinning some of the theological substructure. And what's the what's the ground of the faith? Is the ground of the faith where it starts an encounter, Holy spirit, grace, what are we teaching and what are we forming? And that's a really important thing.

00;53;16;26 - 00;53;20;03
Murray Dueck
And and yeah. How about the bicycle wheel.

00;53;20;03 - 00;53;29;27
David Takle
And I, I wish I wish our, I wish our seminaries would catch this vision. There are a few that are working in that direction, I know.

00;53;30;02 - 00;53;30;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;53;30;17 - 00;53;31;11
Murray Dueck
Oh, well, that's good to hear.

00;53;31;11 - 00;53;56;01
David Takle
There's some work at Talbot. There's some work on issues. There's some. But, you know, when I was at Fuller, I had to take a missions class or. And the hard course was how important missions are, you know, and God is missional God. And we can prove it from chapter to chapter. Well, I wrote my when it came to write the term paper, I made a nuisance of myself.

00;53;56;03 - 00;54;02;23
David Takle
Yeah. That's something I wrote my paper on. You cannot export what you don't grow at home.

00;54;02;25 - 00;54;03;05
Murray Dueck
You.

00;54;03;08 - 00;54;29;12
David Takle
Know, and and I, I fully expected pushback from the professor, but he gave me an a. All right, so I said, I'm at a loss here. What I wrote on my paper is not at all what you taught in the class, but you gave me an A. Why is that? He says, well, you're right.

00;54;29;14 - 00;54;37;06
David Takle
And my question was then why aren't you teaching it right?

00;54;37;08 - 00;54;38;27
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Do you have a response to that or. No.

00;54;38;27 - 00;54;39;25
David Takle
Did not.

00;54;39;27 - 00;54;41;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;54;41;10 - 00;54;42;14
Murray Dueck
Interesting. Yeah.

00;54;42;14 - 00;55;00;13
Joshua Hoffert
That I that's where, a good friend of ours, Steve Schroeder, he he's become fond of saying it. He's a pastor of pastors, you know, leads about a network of about 650 leaders or so. And he says there's a lot of work to do.

00;55;00;15 - 00;55;02;05
David Takle
Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

00;55;02;07 - 00;55;24;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. And it's. Yeah, it's very true. And actually, at our annual gathering, just in September, Murray and I were both there. And the keynote speaker, who is a, he's he oversees the spiritual formation program. Yeah. I can't read what university he teaches at. I think it's in Ontario. Right. I want to say that.

00;55;24;24 - 00;55;54;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And he said he did an audit of about what was it about 50 of the national seminaries in Canada to look at, who had an emphasis on prayer in their training. And he said, not a single one at best. You might have one course, but not a single one had an emphasis on prayer and any of their trainings in any of the seminaries that he looked at, and he said, you know, so he he wrote a book, the present centered life.

00;55;54;22 - 00;56;06;05
Joshua Hoffert
I think he called it. And, that is, you know, he's working in Canada to try and, you know, right. The ship in that sense. And so, again, the groundswell is happening. Yeah.

00;56;06;07 - 00;56;20;28
David Takle
That reminds me, we were talking yesterday about, at Fuller, every year, Dallas Willard would come in and take the demon students out to a Catholic retreat center for for two weeks.

00;56;20;28 - 00;56;23;24
Murray Dueck
Really two weeks.

00;56;23;24 - 00;56;41;14
David Takle
And they would come back transformed. All right. Yeah, yeah. Fuller never caught on on what I'm telling you. Yeah. I said where where where's the course on Dallas roller theology? Oh, we don't have one. Oh.

00;56;41;14 - 00;56;42;24
Joshua Hoffert
Come right.

00;56;42;27 - 00;57;12;05
David Takle
This man is changing the face of modern Protestantism. Well. Right. He's one of the one of the professor. Get this. One of the professors in in the spiritual formation department said, I think Dallas Willard believes in sinless perfection, so we can't really go there. Oh, it's like you have no idea.

00;57;12;09 - 00;57;16;13
Joshua Hoffert
John Wesley wrote a whole book about that and defended his position perfectly.

00;57;16;14 - 00;57;35;21
David Takle
No idea what Dallas Willard is teaching if you came up with that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No. So, I mean, so and Fuller is a research supposed to be a research seminary? But where's the research on Dallas Willard?

00;57;35;24 - 00;57;42;19
Murray Dueck
I can't I'm so shocked they let him in and do that then, because, Well, I mean, there there are.

00;57;42;21 - 00;57;47;20
David Takle
Someone in the, someone in the department knew what was going on, but I.

00;57;47;22 - 00;57;48;27
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah, but they.

00;57;48;27 - 00;58;01;08
David Takle
Didn't they didn't they didn't capitalize on it. They didn't like let's run with this. And most seminaries exist to maintain the status quo in their denomination.

00;58;01;11 - 00;58;01;21
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;58;01;21 - 00;58;15;13
David Takle
So they're not looking for anything new. I mean, if you don't train your pastors, it's no wonder they all burn out in five years. You know, they don't have any tools to help peoples change lives.

00;58;15;15 - 00;58;16;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;58;17;00 - 00;58;18;21
Murray Dueck
Yeah, absolutely.

00;58;18;23 - 00;58;23;21
Joshua Hoffert
All right. Yeah, yeah. Let's just. Yeah, we we like again. We can keep going. Yeah.

00;58;23;21 - 00;58;24;16
Murray Dueck
This is great. Straight.

00;58;24;18 - 00;58;31;29
Joshua Hoffert
We're it is. It's been wonderful having you on David. And and we'll for sure have you on again and we'll just keep diving.

00;58;32;01 - 00;58;36;05
Murray Dueck
And how did we get Ahold of of your books and courses. Yeah. How can we send them.

00;58;36;07 - 00;58;39;24
David Takle
Information, dawg?

00;58;39;26 - 00;58;41;14
Murray Dueck
Okay. Kingdom formation doc, I.

00;58;41;14 - 00;58;43;17
Joshua Hoffert
We'll put that in that description too.

00;58;43;19 - 00;58;44;05
Murray Dueck
Oh, great.

00;58;44;05 - 00;59;08;13
David Takle
That's that's really the place to start. All my books are on Amazon, but we recommend they get them. We have a wonderful, party distributor called Humble Shack, and you can look them up on the internet as well. They have all our books and, other books by, local people who have worked with Shepherd's House in the past.

00;59;08;16 - 00;59;19;23
David Takle
And, And of course, that way you can support, another ministry as well as me instead of Jeff Bezos. So.

00;59;19;26 - 00;59;21;02
Murray Dueck
Yeah. That's right.

00;59;21;04 - 00;59;23;22
Joshua Hoffert
What was the name of the humble? Was it humble.

00;59;23;22 - 00;59;27;24
David Takle
Shack? I think it's home or something. Oh, they have a shop.

00;59;27;26 - 00;59;53;15
Joshua Hoffert
We'll get all those into the account. Okay. Oh, wonderful. Yeah, we'll get all those links into the, into the episode descriptions, and people can follow that. Well, everybody, thanks so much for tuning in. This has been wonderful, refreshing, life giving, lots of things to chew on and think about and our our prayers that you're blessed and uplifted, blessed and uplifted by the Holy Spirit, and that he's encountered you and touched your heart, in the context of all of this conversation.

00;59;53;15 - 01;00;12;20
Joshua Hoffert
And if you have any questions and if you have anything you're trying to process and thinking about, you know, maybe stirred some stuff up, you can find either Maria and I on social media and you can send us a message. You can you can email either one of us. You can go to Wind Ministries, dot com or Samuels mantle.com and when ministries okay.

01;00;12;25 - 01;00;31;29
Joshua Hoffert
And Samuels mantle.com as it com Mary. Yeah it is there's links are all for all of those are in there. We'd be happy to help. And we can get you connected with David and and and the hearts of guys too. And we're going to have them on. And we're here for the journey and helping people find integration with the father and a whole new context for living engaging there.

01;00;32;02 - 01;00;38;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. So until next time, everybody. God bless and thanks for being here.

01;00;38;06 - 01;00;38;20
David Takle
Thank you.