Encountering God at Burning Man: and interview with Will Spencer Artwork

Voices from the Desert

In the early days of Christianity, men and women fled to the desert and became the wisest sages of their era. Voices from the Desert explores how the wisdom of Ancient Christianity applies to our modern world. Where do the streams of historic Christianity intersect with contemporary Christianity? And how do we come to know God deep in our heart? Join Joshua Hoffert and Murray Dueck for a deep dive into the mystics, union with God, patristic theology and what it all means in our modern world.

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Voices from the Desert

Encountering God at Burning Man: and interview with Will Spencer

April 23, 2025 • Joshua Hoffert and Murray Dueck

On the podcast today, Josh sits down with guest host Rob Mazza to interview podcaster Will Spencer. They talk about Will's journey from the New Age rave scene in San Francisco to encountering Jesus in the desert of Nevada, and then the long circuitous route to salvation and healing. Will has been helping people find meaning and purpose in life, and find Christian hope in the midst of a rapidly changing world.

You can find more about Will Spencer at: https://www.youtube.com/@willspencerpod

For more about Voices from the Desert, visit our Patreon page: https://www.patreon.com/VoicesfromtheDesert

Joshua Hoffert (00:00)
Okay. Hopefully that's, it kept giving me a notification saying it was trying, it was needed to reconnect and reconnect and reconnect. So, um, maybe it just needed to be refreshed. it's a computer. Um, yeah. Okay. So thank you, Jesus for helping me. That's the, that's one of the desert fathers says the more desperate to the realization, the need, the shorter the prayer becomes when you have a

Will Spencer (00:11)
Yeah.

Ha ha.

Joshua Hoffert (00:29)
burning house, your prayer becomes help. yeah, so help. So yeah, hopefully that hopefully that clears that up. I can't find a way to pause the uploading so that I can just upload it afterwards.

Rob Mazza (00:34)
this.

Will Spencer (00:47)
Well, you look and sound much better now, so I think it's working. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (00:49)
Okay, good. Yeah.

I feel less stressed. So yeah, okay. So kind of overview just just in terms of what the flow would be. And I'm just we'll just go wherever the conversation takes as well. But this is just some ideas throwing out is the the the idea like, like I was saying, I was listening to Alex O'Connor talk about, well, you got to remove john from the Gospels, because that's a later thing that

that the tradition developed over time that Jesus is the son of God and he's not actually the son of God. And there's all these thoughts that are in the public sphere. And I know the new age years ago started really diminishing. Jesus is the son of God and he's just the teacher or even the spirit guide, you know, or whatever. And so I'm curious that you were so heavily involved in that. How did any of those thoughts

Will Spencer (01:42)
Hmm.

Joshua Hoffert (01:48)
How did you come to grips with the deity of Christ as a reality? so that was one question I was thinking about. And as you would wrestle through some of those ideas, especially between, you meet the Burning Man team, see a different picture of what Christianity would look like through them, and then spend time.

Will Spencer (01:55)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Hoffert (02:18)
traveling the world and looking at all kinds of different spiritual approaches and go, actually, this Christianity one does make sense. So being exposed to a lot of that. anyway, that'd be interesting to talk through. then, you know, we're we're I'm interested, especially in the podcast and the journey of discovering what Jesus is like, and how did he impact you in a very personal and tangible personal and tangible way.

So what was, what were those first moments like where you started to engage with, maybe there's something more to this than I thought. And then what was the, what was the decision moment? Like was, you know, what, what was the, what was so profound? Like I remember Rob saying at one point when we were doing some teaching where you ask people to make a, a lifelong decision. You give people more grace for making a decision about buying a house than you do about becoming a Christian.

And we often do. And so, you know, that's a huge decision for you. So how did that go? And then where are at today? That's kind of the overview of personal journey of will. So. Yeah.

Will Spencer (03:21)
Yeah.

Okay,

yeah, I can definitely speak to, I can speak to all of that in my own way. Maybe I won't answer the questions in expected ways, because I think my journey might have looked a little different, but yeah, can answer all of those.

Joshua Hoffert (03:37)
Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. And that's,

I have no expected way for you to answer it. So there's no expected way for you to answer it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just happy to get to know you and what.

Will Spencer (03:46)
Wrong answer. Zero points.

Rob Mazza (03:54)
That's what

pulled you to the first and second century metrics that he so studied.

Joshua Hoffert (03:58)
Ha!

Will Spencer (03:59)
Hahaha

Joshua Hoffert (04:02)
Yes. Yeah. Well, in my like, I look at the studying Christian history for so long, you look at like, you have the the the conversion moment, I guess, if you will. It typically happens because some kind of encounter is transpired. And the encounter could be like Anthony the Great walks into a church service and he hears the words

being preached in Isaiah, though your sins are a scarlet, I'll make them white as snow. He has a profound turning moment and he decides to sell everything and go into the desert and learn from some of the Christians that are practicing the way of Jesus in the desert. And so his encounters through the preaching of the word, right? The spirit just touches him in such a profound and dramatic way. You've got one of the other early church fathers, Pecomios is conscripted into the Imperial army.

Will Spencer (04:50)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Hoffert (05:01)
He goes and he's fighting a war and his side is occupying a city on the losing side. Eventually they win, the conditions are becoming very dire for them in the place they're at. And the Christians in the city take care of them. And he resolves, because of the tenderness of the touch of these guys, to go to the first church that he comes to after he gets out of the army and dedicate his life to following Christ. So his encounter came metered through other Christians.

But then you've got other guys who the encounter came metered through a dream or a vision or some kind of some kind of profound spiritual experience. And so there's always something that awakens the heart like that. And so that that's the kind of thing I want to talk about is what awakens your heart and what were the moments along the way. yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, wherever that goes from there. So. Yeah.

Will Spencer (05:49)
Okay. I can do that.

All right, rock and roll.

Joshua Hoffert (05:58)
Good, okay, so we're recording. Yeah, so Jesus, be with us. We just set aside this time for you. And Father, I ask that you would be with us and I bless Will, I bless Rob, and Father, would you be with me? This is, have this conversation that would be an enriching conversation, one, for all of our friendships, and two, for the people that are listening that...

that those that are wrestling with some of the things that we're going to talk about, they'll find a step on the journey towards you. And the father you'd anoint, you'd anoint will now that your spirit would flow through him and that you'd speak through him that people would hear his journey and that hear parts of themselves in that and they'd find a glimpse of you in that. So I bless him bless Rob and father thank you for divinely orchestrating this and

We set the time aside for you that it be an honoring and glorious time to you. Amen. Okay. And I invited, you know, Rob I invited for the journey. He's a friend of both of ours. So whatever you have to add, Rob, whatever questions you kind of percolate then.

Will Spencer (06:59)
Amen.

Rob Mazza (07:10)
I was wondering,

am I gonna be the fact checker or what?

Joshua Hoffert (07:13)
Yeah,

Will Spencer (07:13)
Just give scores just like yeah three out of ten. That's not what I told him at all. No That's that's not what happened. I was there Just shake a head shakes of disapproval the entire times face bombing

Joshua Hoffert (07:13)
you might be. Yeah, that's right. That's Yeah, that's Yeah. Yes.

Rob Mazza (07:16)
Alright.

Now I that.

Joshua Hoffert (07:36)
Let's see...

Rob Mazza (07:37)
It'll be more authentic. I'd tune into a broadcast like that.

Joshua Hoffert (07:40)
Hahaha

Will Spencer (07:41)
just with with a with a judge just just silently

judging the conversation he never says anything he just actually i think i have hold on i do hold on a second

Joshua Hoffert (07:47)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rob Mazza (07:55)
You thought Trump and Zelensky was a thing? You ain't seen nothing yet.

Will Spencer (07:56)
Okay, now I have a prop that I can,

hold on, I can't hear you guys if talking. Okay, cool. I have a prop that I can use now because I thought I had it in my office. Okay, cool.

Joshua Hoffert (08:06)
good, there we go, awesome. Yeah, yeah, very good. Okay, so.

Rob Mazza (08:11)
I've always wanted

to have a flannel gram, you know, like they use in Sunday schools. And I want to bring one on the stage, a ginormous flannel gram. Here's Jesus, clap. And here's you with a piece of flannel.

Joshua Hoffert (08:15)
I remember those, that's right.

Yes. Yeah, yeah. Those-

Will Spencer (08:26)
You

Joshua Hoffert (08:26)
I wonder if there's any churches that still use those for Sunday school. Yeah.

Rob Mazza (08:29)
I

want to bring it back though with my own quirkiness to it.

Joshua Hoffert (08:34)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. okay. Let's, we'll get going. So I'll do a little intro and I'll introduce both of you guys since you're both guests and, Rob, you're kind of playing the part of Murray, my typical cohost, but he couldn't be here. So, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. We have a replacement for Murray. So, okay. All right. Three, two, one.

Rob Mazza (08:37)
that is...

Murray.

Joshua Hoffert (09:02)
Hey everybody and welcome to another episode of Voices from the Desert. Desert.

that normally that's where Murray would come in with the Coyote howl. So you know, that's kind of how we start things. But for those of you that are listening versus watching, you're gonna go, I didn't hear Murray here. What's going on? Is this just Josh? You can hear some maybe restless voices in the background a little bit. And so anyway, we've got two, I've got a replacement Murray for this. We've got Murray. Number two, his name is not Murray. It's Rob.

He's a very good friend, a long time friend. I've known Rob since meeting him at Stonehenge in 2008. So that was our introduction to each other 16 years ago. And we became friends and we've been friends ever since. And Murray couldn't be here today. So I asked Rob to fill in for Murray as my cohost and Rob and I was my, my wife and I, everybody that you guys know, we drove across the country. We moved from

Eastern Canada to Western Canada and we happened to stay with Rob and Katie, some very good friends in Coeur d'Alene on the drive across. And we had a dinner with their the group of friends that are there that we've known for many years, been involved with different ministry initiatives, outreaches to crazy places like Burning Man that we'll be talking about today a little bit. And, and one of Rob's friends, a mutual friend named

Barb was mentioning this guy that she had met through Burning Man. She had been part of the team. Actually, I was going back through his name's Will Spencer. He's right there. He's here. Will, I was going back through your Facebook posts, looking at some of the old ones and went, there's a picture of Burning Man with you standing there with Barb and talking about the term like 2017 or 2018 or something. It's helpful that I don't think we were friends on Facebook. So there's only a few.

Will Spencer (10:53)
Hahaha

Joshua Hoffert (11:08)
Facebook posts that I could actually look at. So it was easy to scroll back far. And, and so there it was, was Barb with Will right there. so, and Barb was telling me about this awesome guy who he started a podcast. He'd had this long circuitous journey through, drug addiction through, and I think you started off as a, in the, as a technology guy, right. And was that, was that in the Silicon Valley or something like that? were,

Will Spencer (11:10)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (11:36)
working for tech companies and end up getting into drugs or very straight laced, but get into drugs and then ends up at Burning Man, exploring new age and all this kind of stuff and meet the team. These wild kind of these Christians that go to Burning Man to minister and prophesy over people at Burning Man and meet them there. And then five years later, you give your life to Jesus. start a podcast.

And, and your podcast, you talk about all kinds of crazy, you know, the, crazy, but the variety of topics of, politics, economics, what it means to be. And you started off, what does it mean to be a man? The Renaissance of men was one of your real passions there. And, and so, so I'm just meeting Will. had a conversation the other day and, I thought,

Will Spencer (12:25)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Hoffert (12:33)
Hey, that'd be awesome to be able to talk with Will about this whole journey and where he's at. So Will, it's great to have you on the podcast. Great to have you on Voices from the Desert. You're kind of like, I think you might be a poster child for a voice from the desert. So, you know, that really seems apropos. So Will, why don't you tell us just a little bit about what you're doing now and...

Will Spencer (12:50)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Joshua Hoffert (13:00)
the Will Spencer podcast and yeah, what's your doing now? So welcome to the podcast.

Will Spencer (13:07)
Thanks for having me, Rob. It's good to see you. I'm sure we'll get into the story of how Rob and I met, but Rob, it's coming up on 10 years, 10 years, actually. It'll be 10 years in August. So, which is just pretty incredible. So, I host the Will Spencer podcast. Again, it was formerly the Renaissance of Men. On the Will Spencer podcast, I host conversations with authors, leaders, and influencers who sort of help us understand the way the world is changing today. So it's a...

Joshua Hoffert (13:15)
Yeah, absolutely.

Rob Mazza (13:20)
I know.

Will Spencer (13:36)
Christian podcast, a Christian worldview podcast. Not everyone that I interview is Christian, but most of the people are. And I sort of help people figure out, well, what are some of the factors that have made the world the way it is today? Where are things going and how can we take things in a more Christian direction? So that's the Will Spencer podcast. You can go to linktree slash Will Spencer and you can find all of that. I'm also a men's counselor by trade and I'm starting that business up again very soon, which I'm very excited to do. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (13:48)
Sure.

Okay, that's awesome. Yeah,

that is awesome. I didn't know that. Well, we'll make sure when the website and everything's up there, we'll make sure we'll update the podcast description and point people that way. That's such a needed thing. And then I'd kind of be remiss if I didn't mention Rob a little bit more.

Will Spencer (14:12)
Fantastic.

Joshua Hoffert (14:19)
than just Murray number two. for those of you that are listening, Rob, Rob and I, like I said, we met in Stonehenge in 2008 when he was involved with a team of Christian weirdos that thought a great thing to do would be to go to the summer solstice festival in Stonehenge to do an outreach. And they invited a couple of us that were interning with a ministry we were all connected with called Streams Ministries.

And so we showed up to Stonehenge not really knowing what to expect. And I think they call that bright eyed and bushy tailed. And we walked into quite the experience there. We met some druids and saw a lot of drunk people. So yeah, that was pretty much it. So Rob has been involved with Streams Ministries for a long time.

and teaching courses and helping people hear the voice of God and this kind of stuff. But Rob, and actually a woodworker by trade and actually quite a well accomplished one in his years. So Rob, what do you do today?

Rob Mazza (15:31)
What do I do today?

Jack of all trades, master of none is something I've always embraced rather proudly. So, you know, we're still pursuing post-Burning Man, how to reach the culture. And we spent a dozen years working in a sympathetic coffee cafe with the street people, new age people, college students, whatnot. And we still are working on ideas. How can we get out there and how can we connect with the culture?

Joshua Hoffert (15:41)
There you go.

Rob Mazza (16:08)
And I don't know. Yesterday I just restarted a writers group that I dormant for a few months and I'm pretty passionate about poetry and prose being part of our prophetic language, part of our kind of a narrative that's popular in the culture. But we have a lot to say as believers in the way we say it and the power that emanates from our words.

Joshua Hoffert (16:38)
That's right.

Rob Mazza (16:38)
So

I, last night went swimmingly well. It was really good. Yeah, there's just a variety. Katie and I do a lot of counseling as well, all over the board. And we're also working with Barb on Arthur Burke's Redemptive Gifts and trying to make it more understandable on a church level. So I'm kind of working with the women. They seem to be.

the spiritual ones that want to push. And so I'm the token guy in there really just supporting Barb and Katie and I are, Katie's my wife, getting behind Barb and this idea of learning your design is very important. It's hot on God's list that you know your design and operate out of that. And you don't get all sidetracked in directions you shouldn't be. Plus you learn how to honor.

Joshua Hoffert (17:14)
go.

Rob Mazza (17:39)
is the design in others and you think it's a key for the future. They know you are Christians by the love you emanate, but if we don't know how to get along with each other or read one another spiritually, they're working hard on that on the other side, so to speak. We on the other hand just sort of say, well, you're saved, just go to a church. And I think there's a lot more to it than that.

Joshua Hoffert (17:46)
Right.

Yeah,

yeah, absolutely.

Rob Mazza (18:09)
Yeah,

that's sort of a short version. Actually, the only thing I've done with woodworking is the last two months I've been passionately making a writer's desk for myself. That's been a dream for maybe 12, 15 years. so I sort of laid that to rest, but I got a shop full of tools that talk to me all the time when I go in there.

Joshua Hoffert (18:27)
Well, there you go.

Rob Mazza (18:38)
I've been satisfied

Joshua Hoffert (18:38)
There you go

Rob Mazza (18:38)
some of that lately. It's a pleasure to be here.

Joshua Hoffert (18:41)
Yeah, very good, very good. Yeah,

it's good to have you here, Rob. Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah.

Rob Mazza (18:47)
Two old friends now, you know as you guys go back at least ten years and

Will Spencer (18:50)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Mazza (18:54)
Maybe 15 for you. I don't know

Joshua Hoffert (18:56)
Yep.

Yep. 2008. So, uh, Will, I'm curious, just when you mentioned that the, your podcast went, you started a podcast as Renaissance of men and now it's the Will Spencer podcast. And so what, what was the, what was the, the, um,

Will Spencer (19:09)
Mm-hmm.

That's right.

Joshua Hoffert (19:19)
the catalyst or what was the moment where you're you're looking at a renna the term renaissance of men like what's that's obviously a thing that's near and dear to you then as men recapturing who men are. I'm assuming based on the name of the podcast anyway what it used to be. So sure, Well, I think you're the scope of interest is much more than than simply that.

Will Spencer (19:38)
Yeah, that's the reason why I changed it though.

Joshua Hoffert (19:49)
But what was, you what was that thing that was, know, 2020, you go, I'm going to, I'm going to start a podcast about how helping men see their way in the world. What was that about?

Will Spencer (19:58)
So the story actually begins in 2001. So I took a class on Carl Jung in my senior year in college. the class was talking about the Lord of the Rings movies were about to come out. And the professor was talking about how, again, it's Jungian psychology, about how the different characters in the fellowship of the ring represent different aspects of

Joshua Hoffert (20:02)
Okay.

Right.

Will Spencer (20:27)
of masculinity and manhood. And so I listened to that and I thought that was very interesting because the only picture of manhood that I'd ever been given was pizza and football and beer. That was the fraternity boy, the rap boy was kind of in the football player. That was the only valid version of masculinity that I think I had ever seen presented to me by culture. And so here they're talking about the Lord of the Rings as another way to understand what it means to be a man.

Joshua Hoffert (20:41)
Yeah. Yep.

Will Spencer (20:55)
And I was like, this was very compelling to me because here's a completely different picture of different versions of masculinity that I can bring forward in myself. And so it helped me realize that, maybe I'm not broken because I'm not that. Cause I thought, well, I've never been the frat boy. That's never, that's never been me. So there must be something broken about me as a man. And I really believe that. But so with this class, it showed me there's actually more to it than that. And I thought that was very interesting.

Joshua Hoffert (21:10)
Right. Right.

Will Spencer (21:22)
And so you take that and you run it forward. That sort of started the wheels turning in my mind for 12 or 13 years. And then you run it forward to an organization called the Mankind Project in 2013, which based on Jungian psychology, did a 48 hour men's initiation retreat. And so I go on this retreat in 2013. here are, I think there are probably 50 or 60 guys who are attending the retreat and 50 or 60 staff members who are leading it, who have all been through it already.

Joshua Hoffert (21:39)
Okay.

Will Spencer (21:51)
And you have men from all walks of life, all ages from like 18 to 70 that are all struggling with this question. What does it mean to be a man? And this was shocking to me. And the guys who were leading the retreat, they weren't professional therapists. They were just everyday guys who worked in every industry you can think of. And so I realized that I'm not the only one who's been struggling with this question. And this organization had initiated quote unquote, something like 60,000 men around the world and had been going for 20 years. I was like,

Joshua Hoffert (22:06)
Right.

out.

Will Spencer (22:21)
What is going on? so carrying some of that information, I started attending men's groups. So in the therapist's office, so he would facilitate a circle of men. We'd just get together and talk about our lives. We weren't friends. We were friendly, but we weren't friends. So we would have that sort of anonymity. And then I went to travel, which I'm sure we'll get to later. And in 2018, I discovered something called the Manosphere. So the Manosphere was an online sort of globalized men's community.

of men figuring out other aspects of what it means to be a man. So more outward focused stuff like physical fitness and personal finance and wealth building and stuff like that. And so I was looking at what I had learned from the world of Jungian psychology in this retreat called the mythopoetic men's movement was what it was called. And so here you have a group of men that are talking about men's inner lives, guilt and shame and quote unquote, trauma and personal histories and stuff like that, family of origin stuff. And then you have this other group of men that are talking about men's outer lives.

Joshua Hoffert (22:55)
Sure.

Will Spencer (23:19)
like, you know, making money, getting fit, stuff like that. And so, but both of these two groups didn't seem to know about each other. And I found that to be really odd because I had navigated through both worlds. It's like, how can there be all these men around the world that are talking about what it means to be a man and they don't seem to know each other. So I started the podcast in 2020, because I thought I had been blessed to learn so much from a lot of these men at the time. I was like, well, I need to talk to all of these influencers so they all know about each other.

Joshua Hoffert (23:30)
Right.

Will Spencer (23:47)
And so they can see that there's something much larger than all of them going on. And so the way that I described at the time is you have a big circle of men that are standing facing away from each other. And I'm like in the helicopter over it, like, hey, guys, turn around. And so they can all turn around and look like, there's something so much bigger going on. So that was the purpose of the podcast originally.

Joshua Hoffert (23:59)
Right.

Right, right. That's really good. Yeah. I love that the the picture of there's a in our in my group of guys that I hang out with here in BC in Canada. One of the questions we pose is, which member of the fellowship are you? And so that's that is that is one of the de facto things that we talk through and the guy who kind of we would navigate.

following his but he's a spiritual father to many of us he sees himself as Aragorn and you know he sees that the in the in the movies anyway the reluctant King and willing to go but he's reluctant to put to pick up the sword so anyway we're talking about this stuff all the time and I love that this different picture of what it means to be a man so I had seen that that was the original name of the podcast so it definitely intrigued me yeah yeah

Will Spencer (24:38)
course.

Joshua Hoffert (25:04)
So going back, you, the journey, you know, into drugs, new age, Burning Man, all of that, weren't raised in a Christian home. was that? What's your background? What's the, what's the story of origin there for you?

Will Spencer (25:26)
My family is all liberal atheist, secular secular Jews. So my, my, my mom and my dad, both my mom passed away in 2006. She would, she was group Jewish, both, both of her parents were both my dad's parents were my whole family is Jewish, but they don't, they don't have any real belief in God. would do, you know, all the religious rituals, you know, Passover and Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. And I was bar mitzvahed and we would go to

Joshua Hoffert (25:33)
Okay.

Okay.

Will Spencer (25:55)
we would go to, high holiday services, Rosh Hashanah, you know, every year, but it never had any theological grounding. never really talked about, we never really talked about God all that much or at all. Really. It was, we do these things because we're Jewish and this is what Jewish people do, but there wasn't really much conversation about God.

Joshua Hoffert (26:14)
Right. So those are not a, not not a component of faith or anything when that came. So what was the intriguing part of what was the, the, part of you that when I want to be involved in something, you know, quote unquote spiritual from Jungian psychology to a new age and Burning Man, what, you know, if you'd have no background, that's really

some of us raised in church or whatever, we have some kind of religious affinity in our family of origin. if that's not there, what was the moment that said, I think I want to explore something deeper.

Will Spencer (26:48)
think it was always just part of me. Like when I was a little kid and all the other boys and girls were reading, I don't know, the Hardy Boys or whatever, I was always the kid reading the Bigfoot and UFOs and Loch Ness Monster Books from the library. And then when I was 12 and I was getting ready for my Bar Mitzvah, my Torah portion was the Ten Commandments. And so that wasn't something that I chose. It was just providentially assigned. And so I remember sitting with the rabbi learning about my Torah portion, just

Joshua Hoffert (26:59)
Hahaha. Yeah.

Will Spencer (27:17)
You know, so one of the appointed times and I remember he said the the second five commandments are there so you don't violate the first first five commandments something like that and And I remember seeing in his office. I've been like, that's really interesting I wouldn't have thought there was that internal logic to it. And so I guess I just always had a sort of spiritual curiosity, you know, I remember I went to a Jesuit high school because it the best high school in town and I enjoyed my religious studies classes and

Joshua Hoffert (27:43)
Right.

Will Spencer (27:45)
Then I went to college in the Bay Area in the late 90s as the rave scene was exploding, Eastern mysticism that was sort of leftover from the 1960s really combined with a lot of institutional support in the new age and just exploded culturally. And I found my way into that world and found more things of spiritual interest to be involved in than were perhaps good for me.

Joshua Hoffert (28:08)
Right. Right. Could you go back in in that that time when you were 12? Can you think was there a time where you were on some level aware that that whether there's a hunger for some of the maybe the mysterious? Was there a moment where you were aware pre pre

obviously pre 2020 but even pre rave scene and everything that there's something bigger than you you're aware of a presence or aware of something

Will Spencer (28:39)
That's a really good question. think I can't really identify a moment in my life where I first had that conscious thought. I think perhaps it was always just a part of me that came out over time. Like I can't ever say that there was a moment where I suddenly realized that there's a God or something bigger than me. I think I just always had that intuitive knowledge that there were mysteries beyond my understanding and I went looking for them.

Joshua Hoffert (29:05)
Sure.

Will Spencer (29:08)
I'd have to think about that one more, just off the top of my head, I can't really think of any particular moment where I went from being a total, I don't want to say atheist, a non-theist or whatever, to suddenly believing in something higher. think on some level I've probably just always taken it for granted somehow that there is a higher power, divine mystery, whatever language you want to use.

Joshua Hoffert (29:30)
something innate that's always been there. Yeah. Yeah.

Will Spencer (29:32)
Yeah, yeah, and

that's funny because I've gotten into conflict with family members over that because I think I've always been in a sense, we'll say spiritually minded and not all of my family members are and not everyone is. And so I've sort of existed with this, I don't know, innate understanding in a way that I guess others haven't had. So that's unusual for me, but I've learned to navigate it, I guess.

Joshua Hoffert (29:58)
Right, right. What it's getting into the rave scene in the 90s into the 2000s as Eastern mysticism and new age and new thought is just exploding. You know what, what? Well, one, what was that like? And was it as a spiritually hungry person? What was it like? Like I, know, a lot of people that are going to be listening, maybe raised in church, maybe they were disaffected.

Will Spencer (30:10)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (30:28)
with the religious system and they find answers in a different denomination or different theological approach, whatever, right? But your journey is way different than that in that sense, right? It's almost the complete opposite, but, but you're disaffected with the answers that you were getting in your, in any kind of religious sense in your upbringing. And you're going, I'm looking for, I'm looking for an answer of some kind. So what was that like getting into?

Will Spencer (30:39)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (30:58)
You know, I can't, I'm trying to picture a, a, kind of substance that you would be given by new age rave scene to answer a deeper spiritual need. Like that's what I'm trying to picture.

Will Spencer (31:13)
Yeah,

yeah, I don't know that I would ever say I was disaffected, but the answers that I was given, I think it was just a natural curiosity that led me. So again, I grew up in a Jewish family, nominally Jewish, religious ritualistic, but not talking about God. I went to a Catholic Jesuit high school, which I don't recall ever hearing the gospel preached. I think they just kind of take it for granted.

Joshua Hoffert (31:22)
Sure.

Will Spencer (31:39)
And then I went to college and I started reading Carl Sagan, who's sort of a skeptic mystic, right? And so this is three steps along the road of my own curiosity. And then I found my way into the rave scene. And the thing with the rave scene is that there's a couple big hooks. One is that it's deeply experiential. So you take very powerful psychoactive drugs, whether it be acid or mushrooms or ecstasy, the most popular ones.

Joshua Hoffert (31:39)
Sure.

right?

Sure.

Will Spencer (32:08)
which have a real visceral component. have very loud thumping sound, which you can actually feel in your body. You have feelings of community and feelings of belonging. And you have all this iconic imagery of essentially Eastern mysticism, New Age kind of stuff. So it's sort of designed not to appeal to your rational mind. It's supposed to bypass and switch off the rational mind and just feel.

Joshua Hoffert (32:23)
Right.

Will Spencer (32:38)
And so one of the biggest hooks of the world at the time was feeling a sense of community and belonging, because I think that one of the big appeals of the rave scene was a sense of chosen family. People who grow up in broken homes, you know, whether they're the children of divorce or various abusive or abdicating situations. And so they find amongst themselves and they're usually in their twenties, maybe late teens, a sense of family and belonging that they didn't have when they grew up.

Joshua Hoffert (32:58)
Right.

Will Spencer (33:08)
So you can think of it as of like catechizing kids through sensory input, sensory overload in this alternative set of values. And I think that was probably some of the hook for me. But of course, it was also presenting all these different competing spiritual systems that I just had an innate curiosity about. Just like, how does this work? But that grew over time.

Joshua Hoffert (33:12)
Sure.

Right, right. you know, it's it's using the language of catechizing is kind of funny because, you know, in a way, do you think back to the history of the Catholic Church, pre reformation? Yeah, and into the iconoclastic controversy in the ninth and 10th centuries, going we need to represent God through art form that draws people into a place of encounter, or at least mystical contemplation.

you know, and and so the whole in a way, the cathedral is developed the the iconic iconography of the East and the West, although the West rejected iconography, not in the same way that the East did. But but the artistic representation, a lot of it developed to in a sense, it wasn't so much to bypass the rational mind as it was, because the rational mind was underdeveloped, like people didn't have

an actual copy of the Bible to read. And so let's bring them into a place where they can contemplate this through art. And then the whole sensory experience of, of a typical liturgical service, what you're describing it, I'm thinking, yeah, I could see, you know, in a way that the building off of the traditions of men that we're talking about, is we've got an incredibly sensory experience. If you walk into an 11th or 12th century church,

I have some friends that are Eastern Orthodox monks in Nova Scotia. And I've done a few, I'll just send them an email. I'm not in the East Coast anymore, so I can't do it anymore. But just to get away to a place that's quiet, I would go there and spend a couple of days. And the overwhelming sensory experience of walking into a small chapel that's had

Rob Mazza (35:07)
Thank you.

Joshua Hoffert (35:31)
incense burning for decades and decades and decades. And that all the light is coming through, you know, colored paint windows. And it's like, it's sensory overload, even just standing in there is sensory overload, right? And I couldn't, I mean, I couldn't imagine being in the rape scene and the sensory overload that, that you're on there. It sounds a little bit like the Lost Boys of Peter Pan. Right.

Will Spencer (36:01)
Yeah, very Yeah, very much so. I mean that's why in San Francisco you have the dual income, which is where I was living at the time. That's why you have the dual income, no kid, no kids, Peter Pan syndrome, very common. That phrase is used openly of people recognizing that they want to remain, you know, childlike and not necessarily immature as long as they can and the lifestyle

Joshua Hoffert (36:01)
coming together and yeah.

Right.

Okay.

Will Spencer (36:28)
There's endless sense pleasures to enjoy, particularly in San Francisco, you know, for money and enjoy things to join the weekend. Why would you give, why would you give your life to the burden of a child when you can continue enjoying yourself, you know, forever? Yeah. You can continue being the child. Yeah. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (36:33)
Right.

as a child. Yeah. Right. So what like

what happens? I'm just curious what happens. You mentioned that the demographic tends to be in that maybe early to mid late 20s. What happens when people don't ever get out of it, and they end up in the 40s and 50s? What happens there? What's in your in your you know, you're observing it.

Will Spencer (37:02)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. mean, what would usually happen is people would reach usually around their early thirties and a combination of things. Maybe they would find someone that they fell in love with or a long-term girlfriend or boyfriend. They're like, wow, we should maybe consider getting married, you know, cause they've been together for a while. And so they would start thinking about marriage and kids are still built into us. Like it's part of who we are. And so that instinct is quite hard to express actually.

Joshua Hoffert (37:35)
Yeah.

Will Spencer (37:40)
So there's that, maybe inevitably they wouldn't be able to party as hard just because you can party much harder in your young 20s than you can in your early 30s, that's for sure. And so a Saturday night or Friday night carries over until like Monday morning. It's like, I can't do this anymore. Sometimes people get, they just get bored with it. Or if people leave, the groups change, new kids start coming in and they don't relate as much to the music that the younger generations like.

Joshua Hoffert (37:47)
That's true.

Will Spencer (38:09)
And it or it could just be like they just get over it or they hit rock bottom and there's all kinds of reasons why people you know begin to take their exit and Usually there's you know, some people will exit hard they just exit and they're gone You don't see them again and they go and they build a life and you know Oh whatever happened to that guy some people will hold on and they'll still try to do Some of that old kind of stuff and never fully transcend and let it go

Joshua Hoffert (38:13)
Right.

Will Spencer (38:37)
And then some people end up being lifers holding on to some dream of something that they're not ever fully able to release. And sometimes those people hang around into their forties and fifties chasing after something that's long gone. And maybe they even catch it later in their life, but it inevitably never turns out to be as good as what they had hoped just because it took so long. I mean, that does happen, but they pay a very high cost in terms of the other things that they miss out on in life.

Joshua Hoffert (38:50)
Right?

Right.

Will Spencer (39:07)
Spending two three four nights a week in big dark loud rooms with strangers It's very sad. It's it's a it's a very sad. It's a very sad world At a certain at a certain point once you get to that age. Yeah and then you of course the last thing I'll say is of course you have the people that made a career and a life out of it You know, of course you have people that were successful in that world whether they be as promoters or as DJs maybe they've cobbled together a nice middle-class lifestyle, but it's in

Joshua Hoffert (39:15)
Right. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

right.

Will Spencer (39:36)
very difficult to hold on to. And so unless you hit superstardom and you hit it big, know, financially, you've got a career with a shelf life for sure. And that's a whole other conversation.

Joshua Hoffert (39:43)
Right.

Right.

Yeah, yeah.

Rob, can interject at any point, by the way. And yeah, any thoughts?

Will Spencer (39:53)
Yes, please.

Rob Mazza (39:57)
I was thinking about as you laid out the bones of...

rave community, know, going the Burning Man, which was sort of the middle ground where we met you, and I call it middle ground because it's not conventional church at all what we were doing. But we were dedicated to bring the presence of God in a form that we, I mean, Holy Spirit coaching us tremendously. was a learning curve the first.

two to three years of really getting it and having the Lord open our eyes to the kind of community they were looking for. And could we enter into it at some level with principles of the gospel and also the supernatural part of God. Our favorite prayer is kind of help Holy Spirit because at this junction

It seems like we're making it up as we go along, but as we enter into, we would do these things called encounters with our Burning Man guests, and we'd be totally in the moment. And, you know, we'd be trying new things, and then we'd be going afterwards when we would discuss among one another, is that scripturally fit at all? And we'd have these discussions, you know, and

A lot of times we have that, this is that moment like you find in scripture. This is what was spoken of in the prophet Isaiah or this is what we had of a reference point. But God would just put us on edge with, you know, people that were so far outside our understanding. But I think the thing I wanted to say about community that, and I know I'm jumping ahead to the Burning Man experience, but I think

Joshua Hoffert (41:38)
Right.

Rob Mazza (42:00)
The idea of finding community, that puts you solidly in the realm of Father God. And defining Father God as the source of every good and perfect gift. He's the one, he's the originator from Genesis, right? And then we jump to John, God so loved the world he gave.

the highest gift possible, his very own son. So that part of it is very evident in how we viewed, how are we going to father the people that come because the head of community is father. And you go to scripture, I forget where it is, I think it's in Galatians or something, can correct me, or Ephesians, he's the...

Joshua Hoffert (42:30)
All right.

Rob Mazza (42:54)
One virgin says, he's the father of every fatherhood created. And I'm sorry, I can't remember the address of that. But yeah, but we seriously embrace that. I remember having an encounter with God when I took over the leadership of the team where he says, you are the mothers and fathers of Burning Man.

Joshua Hoffert (43:03)
It's in the Bible. That's all right.

Will Spencer (43:05)
Hahaha

Rob Mazza (43:19)
And it was like, do you believe it? And, you know, nod your head if you agree. And in my prayer conversation early one morning when it was, I forget what year, 2007, I think, or 2008. And I said, yes. And told the team in our morning meeting, and there was this unanimous, yes, that's who we are. Embrace it, whether you, you know.

Joshua Hoffert (43:22)
No.

Rob Mazza (43:46)
Try to internalize it the best you can because it's It's a lost generation and we're the closest thing to father mother that they're going to encounter. And that was a lot of basis of how we came at people like Such As Yourself. That was the hidden secret sauce, so speak. We will love you, Lord, helping us. We will love you in spite of...

maybe shock or lack of understanding of where we're, because we had so many diverse people come through our doors of our tent. We had to adopt this God move through us as a father and mother to help see them. And the first result toward community is we built trust very often in these encounters we had with people within.

10, 15 minutes, which is probably the most important thing. It's funny, I think twice in the last two days I've been talking about this with people that have been coming by the house and a couple of groups I've had is the building the trust was the thing. And then looking at us and just pulling out of them, there's a certain God given sense. We had this...

absolute faith that he put eternity in the heart of men. It's in Scripture. In every man and every woman. And we were going to believe for that. We were going to find it. We were going to tap into Will Spencer's hunger. Maybe in spite of himself or whatever difficulties he's going through. That was our attitude for everyone.

And I mean, there were people into really dark things there that you would think like it can't work with them, but very few people were that far gone or and you could corroborate this Josh to that far gone that we had to turn away, you know.

Joshua Hoffert (46:00)
Right. Yeah. It was very, very few and far between that that happened. Yeah. It did happen, but yeah.

Rob Mazza (46:02)
There was always some level of, yeah, and I think what

they saw is they're looking for these people are connecting with something higher and something different. So they hung around. And then it would get deeper into an actual encounter with God of some form or another. Even if we just held them in our arms and they cried and...

Joshua Hoffert (46:19)
I'm

Rob Mazza (46:30)
We gave them an actual formal father or mother blessing. So I want to take up all your time, but that's what I keyed in when I hear you talk about the community of Rave. I automatically go to the place like, yeah, that's what they're looking for. In healthy Christian communities, have.

Joshua Hoffert (46:36)
I'm... Yeah.

Right.

Rob Mazza (46:58)
We have a music format. Creativity ought to be super important to us. And in some circles, there's a whole renaissance going on about God is represented by creativity, you know? And sound, light, color, all these things speak of God. So.

Will Spencer (47:17)
Hmm.

Joshua Hoffert (47:18)
Hmm

I'm, I'm, I have a thought.

Just for clarity sake too, before I share that thought, we've talked about Burning Man a whole bunch, but I'm sure there's people that are going to be listening that go, what do they mean Burning Man? And yeah, what is Burning Man? So just as an aside to that, Burning Man is a festival that has been going on since, I think it moved to Nevada in the mid nineties, something like that, right? It's been going on in the Nevada, San Francisco. Yeah, it started out in San Francisco. It was a gathering of people who

Will Spencer (47:41)
What is Burning Man?

Rob Mazza (47:54)
I it started in San Francisco, what, in the 80s?

Joshua Hoffert (48:01)
burned a wooden effigy on the beach just outside of San Francisco with the idea of bucking the societal trends and we're kind of being countercultural and we're burning the man, so to speak. so then the move, I think there was a lot of guns and stuff like that first off as well out in the desert and a lot of shooting and, and it got a bit more formal in that sense, but it's a, it's a

essentially a music festival that takes place in the desert of Nevada now. And that centers around a lot of new age Eastern mysticism practices. And people go, what was the last number of people that when I was going out there, it was getting up to 60 7080,000 people for a week long. It's still it's still there. Yeah. So about about that many go out and they basically create a city in the Nevada desert.

Will Spencer (48:50)
Still there. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (48:58)
and live off grid for a week. And I mean, there's lots of setup and lots of tear downs. So there's city exists for more than that. I think you can look on Google maps and find the city there. When you look at the satellite images. So lots of people go there with it's like kind of their major life experience through the year that gives them the juice to go through the rest of the year.

Will Spencer (49:26)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Hoffert (49:26)
And,

uh, it's where they find their community, their sense of belonging and purpose. And so what Rob is the part Rob hasn't said is that there was a group of weird Christians that decided to go out there in the early two thousands. Initially we're giving out water to people and then eventually, um, moved with some others and started a, uh, essentially a ministry tent with, not a very, you know, kind of

removing the religious trappings and language to be able to reach into the culture there. And so, so that's Burning Man and the team. So what I'm curious about with all of that, I think that's an accurate representation of Burning Man. You can say a lot more about it.

Rob Mazza (50:12)
I would say it'd be fair to say there's a...

trying to remember the 10 principles of Burning Man. It's been so long since I've been in SAVA. But there's a high degree of freedom of self-expression there. Kind of a man is a measure of all things.

Joshua Hoffert (50:20)
Yes, yeah, it has been a while.

There you go. Yeah. Yeah.

Will Spencer (50:30)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (50:33)
What was your name at Burning Man Wheel?

Will Spencer (50:37)
oak and rob and the spirit tree and people gave me that name yeah they did well i've i have an oak tree tattooed on this bicep now and i got oak leaves on this one so yeah

Joshua Hoffert (50:38)
did they really? Okay. well, that's, wow. Okay.

Okay. so Rob.

Rob Mazza (50:52)
Then you're gonna, you know, if you get married soon, there'll be acorns.

Will Spencer (50:58)
If only I could bring myself to get more tattoos.

Joshua Hoffert (51:00)
Yeah.

Rob Mazza (51:02)
Sorry.

Joshua Hoffert (51:04)
So what

I'm what I'm curious about then given what Rob shared about the the the the team's thought process in light of you know, what's clue in a minute to make him think about it in light of the rave scene. You said 2015 without the first time you went to Burning Man was 2015. Or had you been before?

Will Spencer (51:23)
No, the first time I

had been before, the first time I went was in 2003, and then I went back in 2013. So was my third time at Burning Man.

Joshua Hoffert (51:28)
Okay.

Okay, okay, so you've been there a few times before.

that that what Rob described as mothers and fathers, what was your experience like? Why did for one, why did you go to Burning Man in the first place, 2003 and 2013? And was it just the natural progression of because now at by 2013, you're getting past that mid 20s age as well, correct? And

Will Spencer (51:51)
Hmm.

In

2013 I was 35.

Joshua Hoffert (52:04)
Right. So you're, you're kind of on the tail end of what the acceptable ages are in the rave scene in that sense. And, isn't yet. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, so what, you know, what coming into the team every and everything too, in 2015, what was your experience like? And was what Rob described accurate and we're fact checking Rob now.

Will Spencer (52:13)
Yeah, I mean, got to get in there. Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah.

Well, that's funny. No one's ever asked me that before. Why I went to Burning Man each different time, because there was a different reason each time. The first time I went to Burning Man in 2003, so when I came into the rave scene in 2000 was how I found my way into that world. Y2K actually, like New Year's Eve 2000. I discovered a desire to travel the world. And my family did not travel when

Joshua Hoffert (52:39)
Okay. Right.

Okay.

Will Spencer (52:59)
When I was growing up, I never felt any lack for travel. It was never anything that I had wanted prior to that. It wasn't anything that anyone in my family did. I just suddenly was gripped with this desire, like I really want to travel the world. And it kind of became my North star for many years. So I went to Burning Man in 2003 because some of my friends were planning to go. They eventually backed out because it's a whole big effort. I decided that I would go anyway without them to another group of friends who I knew was going to be there.

because I thought it was going to be a good first step in learning how to actually backpack overseas. It's like, OK, Burning Man is an American city, right? It's not like the rest of the states that everyone speaks English, but it's got its own culture, its own way. Can I go and can my own psychology handle being in this foreign environment for several days? don't think I was probably there for five or six days or something. Can I? Will I be?

Joshua Hoffert (53:35)
Okay, okay.

Sure.

That's right. Interesting, right?

Right. There's a couple of cities I've

been to in India that remind me of Burning Man. You know, it's yeah. Yeah. Well, Ludiana was one for sure. Just outside of Ludiana going, this kind of feels like it's dusty. There's motorcycles everywhere. And I was like, you know, some of the outskirts of Ludiana really remind. And then you see these signs that say, psychic this way or new age or not new age, but, Yogi, you know, they'd have this guy this way.

Will Spencer (53:58)
Yeah, which ones? okay.

Joshua Hoffert (54:23)
So I thought, that's interesting. That kind of reminds me of, I've got a picture that I could, I think I probably showed Rob over the years. It's like, it looks like a little bit like a street in Burning Man. Anyway.

Will Spencer (54:33)
What region of it just real quick because I've been to India what region of Punjab? Oh, okay. Yeah, that's great out there Yeah, it's a very different culture out there. So so that was why I went in 2003 because I wanted to see if my psychology could handle because I was Very different person back then very insecure, you know would sometimes have mood swings and just dealing with a lot of anxiety and so I'm like Okay, if I take myself out of my stable home environment and I go into this foreign land

Joshua Hoffert (54:36)
That's Punjab. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Will Spencer (55:04)
Will I be okay? And not only was I okay, I totally thrived. Like I had a great time. So that's why I went in 2003. I went back in 2013 because a couple that had just gotten married, they were doing a ceremony. It was part of their honeymoon to go to Burning Man. And they invited me and my girlfriend at the time to join them in an RV. And so my girlfriend liked RVs. I was a tense guy. So we weren't gonna go to Burning Man together unless we went in an RV.

Joshua Hoffert (55:08)
Right. Right.

Okay.

Will Spencer (55:33)
RV became available so we're going to going to Burning Man's that's why I went in 2013 and then in 2015 I had just broken up with that girlfriend and so I'm like oh I can suddenly go to Burning Man now and sleep in a tent and do things my own way I got nothing else going on I guess I'm going to Burning Man and that all came together maybe a week or two before the festival like August 1st 2015 there was no thought in my mind of going to Burning Man August 20th you know

Joshua Hoffert (55:33)
Alright, there you go.

Right, right.

Okay.

Will Spencer (56:03)
Three weeks later, I'm going to Burning Man, which is how it works in the Bay Area. So that's why I went in 2015 and what ultimately led me to Spirit Dream.

Joshua Hoffert (56:05)
Right. Right.

Is that the first time you met?

Okay. So you hadn't met them before? No. Okay. Cause I was there in 2013. So that, but I was at, yeah, we might have, you know, I remember one morning Rob and I jumped on bicycles and rode out in the Playa early in the morning. may have crossed paths at some point out at the temple or the man. So yeah.

Will Spencer (56:13)
No, no, in fact,

I love that thought, like we walk past each other, you know, yeah.

I just, I love the idea of thinking about all the people who are in our lives now.

If we could look and see the times when we crossed paths with them or were standing right next to them and had no idea, no clue. Yeah. But so yeah, as a result of that breakup that I actually ended up at the Spirit Dream Tent in 2015 because there's a whole big story of arriving to the festival and why I ended up camping with the people that I did. They weren't expecting me. I just showed up like, hey everybody.

Joshua Hoffert (56:40)
Yeah, no clue, no clue. Yeah.

you

Will Spencer (57:00)
Like,

Will, what are you doing here? That's a long story. You got somewhere for me to camp? So I just set up my tent and I woke up the following morning. Let's say I got there on Wednesday, woke up on Thursday. And as I'm getting up and going about my business outside the tent, the guy who's camping next to me gets up and says hi and introduces himself. He's like, what brings you to Burning Man? I said, oh, well, I just went through a breakup. And so I just out here to, I don't know, relax and wind or whatever. And he said, well, if you're grieving over the breakup.

Joshua Hoffert (57:03)
Yeah.

Will Spencer (57:29)
There's a camp called Spirit Dream I just went to visit yesterday and they're great. You should go check them out. I'm like, okay, that sounds cool. So that's how I ended up at their camp. And then I think I probably had some breakfast and just rode straight over to the camp. And I think I was the last person seated for the morning session, if I recall. One of the last people, yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (57:36)
Right.

Okay.

Right. So that, do you remember meeting Rob for the first time?

Will Spencer (57:55)
Yes, but it was Barb and Katie and Larry were in my encounter group and then Rob I'm sure I met you after that whole process was over. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (58:01)
Okay.

Rob Mazza (58:04)
I was

kind of the gatekeeper at the door, so to speak, with our co-leader at that time. Yeah, so I probably met briefly or you passed, but usually we would seat you with Katie and Barb and Larry.

Will Spencer (58:18)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (58:28)
I was

the team lead for Barb's first year, by the way, for 2012, I think I was her team lead for the pretty much a whole week. And Barb, in her first year was terrifyingly nervous and barely said anything, barely said anything. So was for, many of the days, was just me and Barb and I did almost all the talking because Barb just didn't know. She didn't know what to say. But then the next year she was like, totally different gung ho.

Will Spencer (58:44)
I bet.

Joshua Hoffert (58:58)
everything. I remember that. I remember at one point asking, Barb, can you pray a mother's blessing over this person? And Barb said, no, I can't. I'm sorry.

Rob Mazza (59:13)
Oh, those poor, our poor team people. I mean, think she said she spent some time in the RV just wailing in tears.

Joshua Hoffert (59:13)
Yes.

yeah, yeah, I can see them. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

Rob Mazza (59:24)
What did she snap into it?

And we were kind of

a semi-Jovial attitude, like, well, why did you join? You're going to be stretched to the max, but we'll catch you and try to hold you.

Joshua Hoffert (59:35)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

So what, so we'll, what was that? Yeah, she really did. Yeah. So that's, so that's 2015. Barb is different than 2012 barb. And, yes. So what was that like coming into, did you have any clue that the, team was anything beyond just some spiritual people, any, any indication or anything?

Rob Mazza (59:46)
man did she step up. Like, yes, she really did.

Will Spencer (59:50)
yeah.

Very much so.

No idea, no idea. mean, I...

Joshua Hoffert (1:00:10)
No, yeah, I know a couple people

would come into the tent and go, I recognize some of this art, it looks a little bit Christian or I remember one girl in 2013, I think who was from Israel. And she definitely recognized the the the temple imagery and stuff like that that Andrea Andrea had put up there. And she was like, well, she mentioned it afterwards. So so you had no clue, though.

Will Spencer (1:00:34)
Yeah. So

no, in fact, that's I'm glad you mentioned that because as I'm sitting in the tent, I'm looking around and, of course, having been to Burning Man, you can walk into a camp and you can kind of figure out what spiritual neighborhood quote unquote they're in like, there's a Shiva statue or there's some Alex Gray artwork or there's a Buddha or there's an alien sitting on a mushroom. You know, you can you can get a sense like what do these people believe, right?

Joshua Hoffert (1:00:52)
Sure.

Right. Yeah.

Will Spencer (1:01:02)
And so I'm sitting

around as I'm in this encounter, looking around at the art and like there's a bull and that's an eagle and that's like a swirly painting of something. I don't know what that is. And I'm like looking around being like, who are these people? What do these people believe? It was so strange. I'm like, I could not figure out, you know, I was like, I don't know, is this some sort of esoteric weird thing? I don't know. But it looked, all the art was of course, you know, very, it's Andrea's style. So that kind of watercolory kind of like,

Joshua Hoffert (1:01:15)
Right.

Yes.

Will Spencer (1:01:31)
soft kind of like pastel kind of thing. So it was all very, very inviting and a very softer feeling. So it wasn't kind of like hard edged, but I was like, I got, where am I?

Joshua Hoffert (1:01:43)
Right.

Rob Mazza (1:01:44)
I

think we joked that your Andrea Barrethor was our head artist and it all started in Coeur d'Alene and we were talking in Calypso's Cafe where we did our little outreach stuff and we were talking about, she needed a theme for art. And I said, how about wheel within a wheel? And then we started talking about the images from Ezekiel. So it.

Joshua Hoffert (1:02:07)
yeah, that's right.

Rob Mazza (1:02:11)
It finally filtered down to we decorated the what we call the encounter tent in early Ezekiel. Ezekiel chapter one.

Joshua Hoffert (1:02:20)
Yep.

Will Spencer (1:02:20)
Early Ezekiel. Mid-century modern

early Ezekiel industrial farmhouse.

Joshua Hoffert (1:02:28)
That's right. Well, and it even I remember that year it even went to the point where the the we put all we laid out all the tiles in the encounter tent. And then the only tiles we had left for the back of the tent were a different color. And so all the tiles in the back of the tent were a different color than the front of the tent. And then and the and there was the the sheet that was lowered down and she she had written something in Hebrew I can't remember what it was.

Rob Mazza (1:02:57)
think it was mercy

Joshua Hoffert (1:02:58)
Yeah, I think it was mercy.

Rob Mazza (1:02:58)
in Hebrew.

Joshua Hoffert (1:02:59)
And it was like, and I don't even think this was planned, because I was just kind of going to be the if you want, if people need just a space, after the encounter, they can go back there. And we were like, this is like, it's like the Holy of Holies, you go underneath the curtain, and there's a totally different. There's a totally different floor here. It was like, we inadvertently created a representation of the temple.

as well as all of the imagery from Ezekiel. I remember some of it you kind of stumble into and some of it was pre-planned. yeah.

Rob Mazza (1:03:33)
Yeah, that's true. Because we wanted

to make, in essence, a chill space for people that were so impacted by God. we were always uncomfortable about letting them loose to go back into the public space of Burning Man. It's so very eclectic and weird and filled with all kinds of influences. We wanted them to soak in the presence of God. So we created a chill space.

Joshua Hoffert (1:03:40)
Great.

Yeah.

Rob Mazza (1:04:02)
And we just happened to choose these angelic wings that said mercy and God bless the space in essence. was people who would get their world rocked and just lay back there and soak it in for, you know, sometimes, sometimes he'd even fall asleep.

Joshua Hoffert (1:04:12)
Yeah.

Yep.

So.

Rob Mazza (1:04:26)
Some of it was

semi intentional, a lot of it just happened. Suddenly we go, we created holy of holies.

Joshua Hoffert (1:04:31)
Yeah.

Yeah, I remember that. Yeah.

So will what was there a moment you clued in like that that particular week that you went, maybe they're maybe they're Christian. Maybe like, or do they say something? Did you come back throughout the week or

Will Spencer (1:04:55)
don't know, I guess you don't know the story. okay. Gosh, well I ended up having a three and a half hour encounter with Barb and Katie and Larry. Yeah, we just kept going. I I had done so much inner work stuff in San Francisco and other modalities that I just had an appetite for it. Like, yeah, keep it coming. So I don't know, do you want me to?

Joshua Hoffert (1:04:57)
I don't, have no idea what the story is. I really don't. I don't.

wow. Okay. Okay.

Sure.

Right.

Will Spencer (1:05:21)
Do you want me to tell the full story or do you want me to just, I can answer your question? Okay, cool. So the first, well, I appreciated Rob that you had said that you were trying to be the mothers and fathers of Burning Man because that was the essence. I don't know that I'd ever heard you say that before, but that was the essence of my encounter as I'm sure we've talked about before. There were two big turning points of that encounter. I'm sure we talked about a ton of stuff, but the two turning points that I remember was first with Barb.

Joshua Hoffert (1:05:22)
Yeah, yeah, Yeah, go for it.

Yeah, don't go for it. I'd love to hear it.

Will Spencer (1:05:51)
Now my mother had passed away in 2006. She had ended her own life, right? And so, but her name was Barbara also. And so here I am talking to Barb and I don't know at what point I found out that was her name, probably because I said my mother. Barb asked, what's your mother's name? Barbara. So probably at that point is when I found out Barb's name. But I remember one of the characteristics of my upbringing was I had a very smothering narcissistic

Joshua Hoffert (1:05:55)
Sure, of course. Wow.

Right, right.

Will Spencer (1:06:21)
mother. term, the current term is son husband. When I grew up, the term was spousalizing the idea that the mother pulls away from her husband and meets, gets her emotional needs met with her son. And so that was, that was what characterized my upbringing with my mom, never wanting to really let me go and just holding on to me as the purpose of her life essentially. And so when I, when I met Barb and started talking to her, now this is 2015 me like

Joshua Hoffert (1:06:22)
Okay.

Right. Yep.

Yep.

Right. Right.

Will Spencer (1:06:49)
I might be unrecognizable in some ways. But when I was talking to Barb at the time and she was explaining to me that she had a son, you know, and it was her job to let her kids go, right? She's not supposed to hold on. Even though it kills her, even though it hurts her to release her children into the world, she has to sacrifice herself and let that go. As much as it pains her, she has to go let them go adults. And I remember sitting across from her and I was like, I'm sorry, what?

Joshua Hoffert (1:07:13)
Right.

Will Spencer (1:07:19)
Like I had never heard such a thing before. Like you had just, you just told me something that doesn't exist. This is so completely outside of my paradigm that a mother can actively, consciously, willingly sacrifice herself for her kids, because that was not my, that was not my experience. My sister and my father and I all became, sacrificed ourselves for her in many ways. So that was such a huge paradigm shift to actually encounter that.

Joshua Hoffert (1:07:20)
Right. Right.

Right.

Right.

Right.

Will Spencer (1:07:48)
mother energy from, know, Barb's lovely. My mom was very beautiful and the same name. And it was like it was like looking in a mirror in a way. And that was that was very powerful for me to see that. was like shocking. And so that was the first sort of touch point. And then later, I'll say probably an hour or so later, we were talking about whatever. was mostly interacting with with Katie and and Barb. And I remember Larry had been quiet for much of the encounter.

Joshua Hoffert (1:07:57)
Yeah.

Will Spencer (1:08:16)
And Larry's an older man. I he was in his probably in his late 60s, early 70s at the time. And he was just kind of reclining, not really. He was engaged, but he wasn't really talking a whole lot. And I was I was talking about my desire to travel the world and my ability to do that. And I was starting to feel inside myself like this guy over here is he's not speaking. And I was starting to feel some sort of judgments or starting to believe that there were some judgments on his part. And I was and it was really.

Joshua Hoffert (1:08:42)
Right.

Will Spencer (1:08:44)
It was really hanging me up and I was like, okay, I'm sorry. I just have to stop for a second. And I turned to him and I didn't want to just assume that I was picking up on something that was really there. Like I wanted to say, I just want to check something out with you. Like I'm feeling like maybe I'm being judged or something like that. You know, I wasn't accusing him of doing that. It was just like, this is just what I'm feeling and I want to check that out with you if that's real. He's like, no, that's fantastic. I think it's awesome that you want to do that. I'm like, really? It's like, yeah, I think it's great.

Joshua Hoffert (1:09:04)
Yeah.

Will Spencer (1:09:12)
And that was because he was probably holding some of the dad energy as well, feeling some of those judgments and resentments. And so that was a big, I gave him a big hug. And that was a big moment for me as well to feel like I could be blessed in my desire to travel the world that I mentioned earlier that I discovered 15 years earlier. I had held onto that dream for 15 years and never let it go and never did anything to compromise the ability to make that happen. So I never got married. I never had kids. I never bought a house.

Joshua Hoffert (1:09:17)
Right. Right.

Right.

Will Spencer (1:09:41)
Like I lived, I didn't live a transient life, but I lived a life somewhat off the ground to make it possible for me to go do that travel. And I did it for 15 years. And so here I am at Burning Man with this group, like, hey, is it okay for me to go do this travel thing? And they're like, yeah, of course it is. You don't need our permission. I'm like, I don't. I guess I don't, do I? But that's where I was at the time in my life. It was like, I had so stuffed down my own desires trying to, you know, bend myself into.

Joshua Hoffert (1:09:41)
Right.

Right.

Right. Right. Right. Yeah.

Will Spencer (1:10:08)
Pretzel for other people that was like the notion of me having this thing that I want and I can just go do it and Needing to get permission from complete strangers was where I was at and they gave me that permission Obviously I did I knew I didn't need it at that point, but it's like okay cool So that was a big turning point of my life that okay now I'm actually gonna go do this travel thing after 15 years So that was one of the big things that that came out of that whole encounter was this, you know shift of my direction but the but to answer your

Joshua Hoffert (1:10:15)
Right.

Right.

Yeah. Right.

Right, right.

Right. That's interesting.

Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead.

Will Spencer (1:10:39)
Yeah,

yeah, I'll finish the story and then we can unpack it from there. And so and so we're at the end of the encounter. It's been three, three and a half hours. And I'm like, yeah, I think I'm complete. I think I'm good. And so I think I'm not sure. I'm not sure what Katie said. I think she may have said, can I pray for you? Something like that. And it's like, of course. So I think you I think there had been a foot washing as well. Like this is new.

Joshua Hoffert (1:10:41)
Yep. Yep. Yep.

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah.

Will Spencer (1:11:06)
So

Katie went to go stand behind me as I'm seated. And she puts her hands on either side of my head. And she starts praying. And I can't hear what she's saying. I can't make out the words that she's saying. So I've got my eyes closed. And so with my eyes closed, I suddenly have this vision of the Playa. I can still see it. And so it's like there's this Playa, the road. And there's all these tents. And the flags are flapping in the breeze. And I can, it's.

really vivid and as I'm standing there looking over the scene, this man walks up to me and he's got goggles on. It's like, can't really, but I can see the shape of his face and his hair. I'm like, it's there. I'm like, okay. And then the face without speaking seems to insist like, no, look, like, okay. Like, look, I see you. Again, the goggles and the hair and all this stuff. And so then the vision ends and I opened my eyes and Katie says to me, there's someone I want you to meet. I'm like, okay.

So she takes me to the front end of the tent, the other side of the tent. So when I had walked in, there was this pillar, it seemed, hanging from the ceiling. And I had gone on one side of the pillar and walked down to the encounter tent. She took me to the other side of the pillar that I could not have seen when I walked into the tent. And she walks me to the pillar, she walks me around, she points me up at it, and there was the face that I had just seen with my eyes closed. And you know the face that I'm talking about. Yeah, yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (1:12:17)
Right.

Yeah.

Wow. Wow. Yeah, I know. Yeah.

Will Spencer (1:12:34)
minus

the Burning Man goggles. So I fell down on my knees and put my head in the dirt and bowed down and just stunned. I didn't know what to do. Like, what do do?

Joshua Hoffert (1:12:36)
Right. Wow.

Just stunned. Yeah. Right. Right.

Rob Mazza (1:12:49)
I

might interject for the audience's sake that what he saw was our friend, artist had painted the four faces of Ezekiel. We have the eagle, the ox, the lion, and then the face of a man. But for the face of the man, she took a representation of Achaena's picture of Jesus, which we thought is one of the best.

Will Spencer (1:12:52)
Please.

Joshua Hoffert (1:12:53)
Wow.

Rob Mazza (1:13:17)
representations of Jesus out there and she painted these things on silk and basically when you look up there's Jesus.

Joshua Hoffert (1:13:18)
Right.

Will Spencer (1:13:29)
Yeah,

do you want to see a photo of me? I can show you the photo of me on my knees. Yeah, I think I can, if I can share my screen. Yeah, it looks like I can allow. Let's see, window, there it is.

Joshua Hoffert (1:13:30)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Will Spencer (1:13:47)
You see that? Yeah. You can see, here's the, I don't know you can see my mouse, there's my, there's my, the top of my head, because I put my top of my head in the dirt, and you can see my dirty toes, my dirty feet from standing.

Joshua Hoffert (1:13:48)
Okay. Yeah.

so

you had just got, you would just come down, you're on the feet, you're on your knees and you would just put your head into the dirt. Wow.

Will Spencer (1:14:03)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't know who took that photo, but I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful that they did. And I think it was at that, yeah, it's an amazing shot. I'm so glad to have a photo of that moment. I almost can't believe that it's real, that I have that. So I think it was at that moment earlier, I'm like, who are you people? And they're like, we're Christians.

Joshua Hoffert (1:14:11)
Yeah.

Rob Mazza (1:14:15)
Great job.

Joshua Hoffert (1:14:18)
Yeah.

Will Spencer (1:14:32)
Like, what are you doing here? You know? So they explained. And just, I love this part. When I was with Katie there on the dirt, I was like, okay, I'm pretty sure I know who that is, but let me make sure I ask, like, is that Jesus? Because, I mean, you know, because it wasn't, didn't have the long hair and all that. I just wanted to make sure like this isn't some guru or whatever. You know what I mean? Like just making sure, I'm pretty sure that's Jesus, but let me, because I knew if I went away later, I'd be like,

Joshua Hoffert (1:14:34)
Ruh-huh.

Yeah.

Right, for sure, yeah.

Will Spencer (1:15:02)
Am I really sure that was Jesus or some other guy? So yeah, that's, that's the.

Joshua Hoffert (1:15:04)
Right, right.

Rob Mazza (1:15:05)
That's a wise spiritual question when you have

Joshua Hoffert (1:15:08)
Yeah.

Rob Mazza (1:15:08)
an encounter

with a high-level being. Are you Jesus or not?

Joshua Hoffert (1:15:12)
Yeah.

Will Spencer (1:15:13)
That's that is Yes, I'm pretty sure that's that that's the question that we're directed to ask in scripture or something like that. Yeah

Joshua Hoffert (1:15:20)
Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah,

that's right. Yeah, you're being very scriptural without even realizing it before. Right? Yeah, yeah.

Will Spencer (1:15:27)
Yes, Trust

Rob Mazza (1:15:28)
Congratulations.

Will Spencer (1:15:29)
but verify.

Joshua Hoffert (1:15:31)
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. Wow, that's amazing. I haven't heard the story at all. So I'm that's fresh ears being able to hear it. But I mean, having having had for three years doing the Burning Man thing, like, that's just amazing what happens with people. And, yeah. So you so you go? What are what? What are you guys? Like there was something? Yeah. Who are you people? Yeah.

Will Spencer (1:15:56)
Yeah, who are you people?

Joshua Hoffert (1:15:59)
And so they just they told you Yeah, did you did you hang out a little bit or do it? Because if you're the last person before Well, you guys went right through lunch then at that point. If you were the last person let in what like how did you can like, you know, so you stayed in contact? Was that was at the end of that of your contact with them on in 2015 at Burning Man? Or did you just keep coming back and

Will Spencer (1:16:12)
Yeah.

Yeah, I don't remember what I left and I don't remember what I did for, I don't know, next day or so. I did meet up with you guys again at least one more time. This would have been on Thursday, I think, when I walked into the tent. And so I either got together with you guys on Friday or Saturday before you guys were packing up to leave, something like that. So I did come see you guys again at least one more time. then I think it was probably on the playa you told me about the Art of Hearing God class that you were doing.

Joshua Hoffert (1:16:37)
Okay. Right.

Will Spencer (1:16:57)
in Carson City, Nevada, which would have been in October. And so I drove up to Carson City for that from the Bay Area. And I still have my Art of Hearing God book that I got. This is the one that I got from that weekend. I kept it.

Joshua Hoffert (1:17:04)
Okay. There. there you go. Yeah.

Okay. Right.

Right. There it is. Yeah. I recognize that very well. So what was that like? Like what? So what was that like the going? So you've, know, is that hopefully we're, can you hear me? And is it working? Okay. Okay. Good. what was the intervening months, right? You've got this.

Rob Mazza (1:17:15)
Yeah.

Will Spencer (1:17:16)
And then I went, yeah.

glitching out again.

Yep, you're back. You're back.

Joshua Hoffert (1:17:39)
profound moment with Barb, with Katie, with Alan, with Jesus. And then you're waiting until what? So it's been what three months, two or three months until the Carson city thing. what was that? What was the intervening moments like? Was it like, did that really happen? Was it, did you, did things germinate more? What was, what was going on inside at that point?

Will Spencer (1:17:48)
Hmm.

Yeah, you, I think you, you, you're, you've glitched out for most of that question. So I will, I think I picked up on some of it. What were the intervening months like? So I, I, yes, I wouldn't say that I, didn't get converted at that time. I was still of the mindset that all religions are equal paths up the mountain. And so I had just collected the Christianity Pokemon in a sense, you know, Hinduism, Buddhism, all this different stuff. like, cool.

Joshua Hoffert (1:18:14)
Yes.

Will Spencer (1:18:34)
Now I've had an encounter with Christians because they're hard to come by in San Francisco, or at least I thought they were. I had not encountered any, but I believed that the Spirit Dream folks were faithful Christians and they are. But it wasn't the sort of experience where I walked away thinking, my gosh, I've got to get saved or I got to read the Bible or anything like that. was just, I just kind of put it up on the shelf with the other religions and continued on my way.

Joshua Hoffert (1:18:40)
Sure.

Will Spencer (1:19:03)
was after that that I got into ayahuasca, which perhaps we can talk about. And I just continued in my new age kind of practices and beliefs. But I think what really changed for me, I went to the art of hearing God class. I didn't quite know what to make of any of it. I I listened to it and I took it in. like, OK, they're clearly very sincere about what they believe. I don't understand it at all. I didn't reject it. But I just didn't understand it. I didn't have a framework.

Joshua Hoffert (1:19:19)
Sure.

Right.

Will Spencer (1:19:29)
to understand it. But I do remember there was another couple that were clearly from the Bay Area as well, perhaps Berners, that were sitting there. And they got up and they left the first day because it was too much Jesus for them. But I stayed through the whole course, even though I couldn't understand really what was going on because it wasn't for me, technically. But then I went to spend Christmas up in Coeur d'Alene.

And it was that Christmas that actually really began to shift things for me because, you know, I got to see that the people that they were on the Playa is who they were in private as well. That they were equally joyful and warm and inviting and loving, you know, and they were nothing like any of the other Christians that I had met, not in my Catholic high school or not in the not in Silicon Valley where I had known a Christian man, I believe. we lost him. He's gone. I'll keep talking.

Joshua Hoffert (1:20:06)
Right. Right.

What?

Rob Mazza (1:20:26)
We're adrift without the host.

Will Spencer (1:20:28)
We'll just play it cool. Everything's fine. anyway,

just to finish answer the question, it was spending time with you guys that Christmas that I think really planted something in my heart of like, okay, there's something to pay attention here because it was that personal bond that was formed that got me recognizing that this is not like some abstract thing. This lives in people. And so that contact that we had while I was overseas traveling for that four years, that

continue to kind of like keep me on a line connected to you guys so I couldn't go flying off into the cosmos and I could always check in with you. And so that was what really did it for me.

Rob Mazza (1:21:05)
Yeah.

Yeah. And we saw that, you know, there's an exchange of life between us. We saw that transpiring in you. And I think it was equally important to us that as a core value, we're the there's this thing about you're different on the mission field or you're different when you're doing this thing called evangelism than you are in your default world.

Will Spencer (1:21:14)
Hmm.

Rob Mazza (1:21:34)
In a sense, we have none of that. There was an intentionality of building our own sub-Christian community where we're going to live like this all the time, like we mean it. What you see is what you get, warts and all. Nothing to hide and so on. Do the best we can. Thank you. Thank God that...

Will Spencer (1:21:38)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (1:21:59)
Right. I think I'm back. Can you hear me?

Rob Mazza (1:22:04)
You you notice that.

Will Spencer (1:22:06)
Yeah, I couldn't help it. Yes, you are back, Josh. We can hear you now. Yeah, I mean, I couldn't help but I couldn't miss it. I mean, I remember I think it was one of the first nights I was there, maybe the first night we were at Barb and Andrew's house and are like, oh, here's Andrew's a hunter. So here's some bear and here's some pheasant and here's some rabbit and here's some wine. And, you know, it was was just it was so joyful. And I never I never felt any pressure. You know, I never felt like there was any

Joshua Hoffert (1:22:08)
Okay, good, thank you.

Will Spencer (1:22:36)
there was any expectation, you know, and I remember, think they, don't remember, I think it was Barb who might've like sort of accidentally invited me, you should come up and join us sometimes. Like, well, I have all these air miles that I have to use before I go overseas so I can come up. And so it was just, it was just very welcoming and inviting. And I, again, I never felt like I was, not that I anticipated feeling like I was trapped or anything like that. I didn't see that coming. I didn't expect it, but it was just, you were, we were just all happy to be around each other and.

and you were happy to have me there. And I think that that was what left an impression. I might have been open to a conversation about these things, but I don't think I would have been ready for it. I might have sat down and had a conversation, but I don't know that I would have had a framework to understand Christianity because I still had to spend another five years building that.

Joshua Hoffert (1:23:25)
Right, right. I remember doing an outreach one time at a a farmer's market. And just by way of this is all in a short 15 minute window, but by way of comparison. And we were working with a lady who was new to the team. And some saw a group of young women who went to a local college had a dream that they wanted some insight.

into which had to do with taking a test and not showing up for class, that kind of thing. so we interpreted the dream. You know, it's a pretty common dream, but we interpreted the dream and the girls were really like, my goodness, that's exactly how we feel. They were very warm and open. And then the lady goes, so now are you ready to give your life to your Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ?

Yeah. And it was like the walls just went right up and they turned around and walked right away. And I was like, you know, no, not yet. Right. Like that's the just give the person time to process things. Think through this profound thing you've said to them and maybe they'll come back to you, but maybe they'll come to someone else later and there'll be another interaction. But you just got to let it go at that moment. Yeah. And, can't like, you're like, you know,

Will Spencer (1:24:23)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (1:24:48)
You're not ready for a conversation. You've got to piece things together. What, what in that, in that, so you had five years of piecing things together where you took the call to travel pretty seriously at that point. I was, again, I was looking at your, Facebook and seeing you were all over the place, you know, in, India. And I think you, I think I noticed you said you were in Singapore. and, and I don't know all, okay. I've been to Singapore and India, both. I love both those places.

Will Spencer (1:25:06)
Yeah.

South America, Asia.

Joshua Hoffert (1:25:18)
I'm curious in that window of time as you were piecing together, maybe your worldview is kind of being disassembled a little bit and you're looking at different things. Because in the New Age community, Jesus is a great teacher. He's oftentimes referenced. You look at books like The Secret that take all kinds of biblical truth and rip out the kind of redemptive

death to self cross all that kind of stuff. so what, like, what were there challenges for you in that sense? Theologically? mean, I'm sure there were theologically, but just disassembling some of those common mischaracterizations of who Jesus is, what he's like, was that part of the five year journey? Was that, or was it just really going, like I told you, I, that your story reminded me a bit of this,

Greek Orthodox guy who wrote his autobiography that the guru is the young man and elder Paisios where he goes has an encounter with Jesus through Paisios and actually wanders around in stupor for like three days going what just happened to me and then decides to go to the yogis in India to study under them and just gets like it's he just gets really messed up and

Will Spencer (1:26:25)
Mm-hmm.

Now.

Joshua Hoffert (1:26:45)
And then eventually, he actually has a vision, Paisios shows up in a dream and dispels a bunch of demonic strongholds. And eventually he comes back and realizes that through the intercession of Paisios, he's been saved from that. And now he's on his journey to Jesus. So anyway, you know, just it sounded, it's not that there's all that much crossover, but when Rob and Barbara were telling me the story, thought, I remember that story.

So I'm just curious how, what that disassembling and putting back together was like for you, or if you would even think of it that way.

Will Spencer (1:27:20)
I didn't

have too many preconceived notions of Jesus just because I didn't know how to properly encounter Christianity. It's not part of the New Age world really. It's actually force.

Joshua Hoffert (1:27:30)
Okay, right.

Not even through the Jewish,

any of the Jewish or Jesuit. Not really.

Will Spencer (1:27:38)
I mean,

I, well, like, I think I grew up, growing up Jewish, I knew that I could be anything I wanted, just not Christian. I knew, I knew that. Right. And so that was never said to me outright, but I think I just picked it up kind of environmentally. Yeah. It's, it's very, it's not calm. It's not uncommon at all. and I don't recall in, in my, in the Jesuit high school, hearing the gospel, hearing too much about Jesus. I know I remember sophomore year, I had a,

Joshua Hoffert (1:27:45)
Right, Yeah.

It's a cultural thing, yeah.

Yeah.

Will Spencer (1:28:08)
biblical textual criticism class and there were some moral discussions, but there was never a moment. There's of course many masses I was required to attend, but there was never a moment where I felt like I was being introduced to who Jesus was as a person. They were in English. I mean, they might as well be in Latin as far as I was concerned. Like, I don't know what's going on here. They didn't make any effort to explain it either. So I don't really know why, but that's how it was. Or at least I don't remember if they did.

Joshua Hoffert (1:28:16)
Sure.

Right. Were they in English or were they in Latin? They were in English, Yeah, sure. Yeah. Right.

Right.

Yeah.

Will Spencer (1:28:36)
But

in the New Age world, Jesus isn't talked about very much. It's excluded. We don't talk about that. Now, the way that Jesus shows up in that world, at least in my experience, Jesus didn't exist. He was mythological. He wasn't real. Buddha was real. Jesus was not real. I did have that idea. We can talk about that. And the other idea I had encountered that I don't think I ever really found compelling was the idea of Christ consciousness.

Joshua Hoffert (1:28:54)
Right.

Yeah.

Will Spencer (1:29:04)
the

idea that Jesus was a man, like any other man, and that he had attained such a high level of spiritual realization, he had embodied this Christ, transcendent Christ energy. So I think those were the only two ideas that I really had. When I worked for a tech company in 2000, the startup that I had done, I worked with a man who, he was a Christian, but he was a.

Joshua Hoffert (1:29:15)
Right. Right.

Will Spencer (1:29:30)
I think charismatic lowercase C and upper case C where he would just sit at his computer. I was the only person who like got along with him because I found him entertaining, but he would send it as a computer and be like, praise Jesus. Praise the Lord. Bam. Like working on his working on graphics as a graphic designer. And so all day long, praise Jesus. Just like that. I just I just found him. He was a trip. And so his name was Jeff and he was a friend of mine. But that was really the only the only experience I'd really had. And I guess one time in the summer 2000

Joshua Hoffert (1:29:41)
Ha

Right.

Will Spencer (1:30:01)
One to summer 2002 he and I kept in touch I was in a really low place emotionally and I was like I just need to talk to somebody and so he and I talked for a while and he kind of manipulated me into doing the sinner's prayer and I could tell you that that did not make me saved at the time if it did it took about 18 years to kick in something like that. So Yes, yes, well and I did I walked away feeling really gross after that and I did I never spoke to him again after that

Rob Mazza (1:30:21)
It made Jeff feel good.

Joshua Hoffert (1:30:24)
Yeah.

Right.

Will Spencer (1:30:29)
And so like those were the really the only experiences that I had with Christianity, like growing up Jewish, knowing I can't be Christian, you know, knowing that they were the big political bad people out there in the world, you know what I mean? Especially from within the San Francisco worldview and some distant ideas. But it was something that I just had very unformed. And so that's why meeting the spirit dream folks and coming to Coeur d'Alene was so powerful for me because I finally met people who embodied Christianity in a way that somehow I knew that they were supposed to.

Joshua Hoffert (1:30:40)
Sure. Yeah.

Will Spencer (1:30:59)
I couldn't have told you anything. I just knew that Christians were supposed to be this kind of person and I just hadn't experienced it. So then I met people who were that kind of people and that really made an impression. But I didn't have so much to unwind in my perceptions of Jesus, really more Christianity as a religion, but I didn't have much formed about it to begin with. In fact, I would probably say I knew very little about Christianity at all, like at all.

Joshua Hoffert (1:31:01)
Right.

Right, right. I'm in one way, in one sense, guess my, background for my question is a guy I used to play basketball with who always had questions about Jesus, but was heavily influenced by new age authors at least. So he'd read about the Christ consciousness thing. He'd read about how Christ was a great teacher. And so he, he really liked the idea of religious syncretism.

Will Spencer (1:31:40)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (1:31:52)
And, and so he'd always have questions for me. Yeah, but he but it was really hard to actually have a conversation with him because well, I read this guy and he said this, you know, and so we just kind of discount anything that had to do with actual Jesus divinity, except for one time, when he twisted his ankle in a game, and pretty bad. And I said, Can I pray for you? So I did and he's like, yeah, I like prayer. Yeah.

Will Spencer (1:32:03)
yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (1:32:21)
And then the next day I saw he posted on Facebook and he said, look at what my vegan meal has, my vegan diet has done. I twisted my ankle so bad yesterday is perfectly fine today. And I commented or I sent him a message and I said, or it could have been Jesus and the prayer. And he's like, I forgot about that. That's right. You know? Yeah. So I was like, Oh, okay. Yeah. I, you know, well, he was open. So I, there was, there was the, kind of the followup to him.

Will Spencer (1:32:40)
Okay? Better response than I expected.

Joshua Hoffert (1:32:50)
was he, I had these conversations, but I just couldn't, he invited me to this syncretistic religious Facebook group. And he always had, he tagged me in every question that you'd get some of the dogmatic Christian responses that he's going, that doesn't make any sense to me. how do I read the Bible with the Holy Spirit? These people are telling me I can't read the Bible and how do I do that? So he tagged me, right? Cause these people wouldn't explain it to him. Yeah. So he always had these questions.

But I can never quite get through to him. then, and then this one guy who was a worship leader in the area ended up passing away kind of quite suddenly he got sick. And when everybody was doing the Facebook Memorial thing, then this guy I knew tagged this worship leader on Facebook. I was like, what the heck? did he know him? And he said there was one day where they they crossed paths hiking because both of them are avid outdoors people. And they struck up a conversation as they were crossing paths and

ended up chatting for quite a while about Jesus and the worship leader had encouraged him to read John with a fresh set of lenses and ask questions. And this guy said, now that you've passed away, I'm going to do that in memory and honor of you. I thought, so interesting that, you know, that God puts him. So I don't know what ever happened with that guy, but, I know that God had things along the way. So I was thinking kind of about him when I was wondering if you had some of the, if you had to contend with some of those things.

Will Spencer (1:33:54)
There you go.

Beautiful.

Joshua Hoffert (1:34:15)
Like I know he had to, he very heavily influenced by that stuff.

Will Spencer (1:34:20)
I think, no, not so much. I think it took me a minute, and by a minute I would say maybe a year less than two to recognize that all other world religions are false. know, because I think for a while I was like, well, all religions are equal paths up the mountain, but Christianity is the only one that gets you that last little bit of the way. I think I might have had some idea like that floating around. But it was a real big moment where I was like, well, wait a minute.

Joshua Hoffert (1:34:32)
Okay.

Sure.

Sure.

Will Spencer (1:34:48)
Jesus is the way, the truth and life and no one can come to the Father except through him, then everything else out there is false and going the wrong way. It's like, it's not the...

Joshua Hoffert (1:34:56)
Right. So what was that moment like? Was it, was it just that,

or was there, what was, what was the, what was the, how did that alter everything?

Will Spencer (1:35:06)
was really scary, but not for me. I suddenly got very scared for the world. I'm like, wait a minute. If this is real, and I believe what this says is true, then this entire world is drowning in darkness. it just made me terrified for the... mean, because I had been to India, I'd been to South America, I'd been to all these countries that showed not the slightest presence of Jesus anywhere. Not that I was paying attention, but I didn't really see it. And I was like...

Joshua Hoffert (1:35:08)
Okay, right.

Sure.

Right.

Sure.

Will Spencer (1:35:34)
I've been to the Kummela Hindu Festival, which at the time in 2019 was the largest human gathering in history. 250 million people. They just did another one that had 400 million people. Right. It's massive. And so I had been, it's 1000 % straight up Hinduism. People travel across the entire country, deeply impoverished people travel across the entire country to bathe in the Ganges River, you know, and sit at the teaching of countless gurus.

Joshua Hoffert (1:35:43)
Okay. my gosh. Wow. Yeah.

Sure.

Will Spencer (1:36:03)
you know, to get favor from the gods, know, on astrologically Vedic astrologically auspicious dates and times. I'd been there. And so here's 200 million people in one country. You know, there's how many people are in India billion just lost in darkness. And that was just that was really shocking. It was really, really shocking to me. But I couldn't find any conclusion other than that. Like, well, this this must be true. And this just mean this must just be how it is.

Joshua Hoffert (1:36:05)
Right.

Right.

Rob Mazza (1:36:10)
you

Joshua Hoffert (1:36:18)
Yeah, 1.2 I think, yeah.

Will Spencer (1:36:32)
It was profoundly humbling moment as well to recognize that like this wasn't due to any goodness on my part that I've been given this, right? So yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (1:36:40)
Right. So what was it?

So were you reading the, was it the, you read the verse? What was the, like, I'm one, cause there's lots of people who've read the whole Bible and not come to that conclusion, right? Uh, yeah, they've come to a completely opposite. They didn't read it very closely. No. The Jesus says in John 14, I'm the way, truth, no one comes to the father except by me. Right. And so you see that and that, and it grips you.

Will Spencer (1:36:54)
I didn't read it very closely.

Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (1:37:09)
Right? Like in a very profound

life altering way. And this sounds a little bit like, you know, like I was saying earlier, earlier, Anthony the great going, though your sins are a scarlet, I've made them white as snow and it grips him and forever changes his life. Right. And so what it was, was it the private study? Did you hear someone speaking at what, what was that moment?

Will Spencer (1:37:22)
Yeah, yeah.

I don't remember. I honestly don't remember. think because I didn't really start reading the Bible daily until 2023. And so I already knew that by 2021 2022. So I don't know whether it was a YouTube video or a book that I was reading or some or someone that I was talking to. Yeah, I really I honestly don't remember when it hit me for the first time, but I remember. Oh, I don't remember why it hit me, but I remember that it did. Maybe it was the whole. Yeah, maybe it was the Holy Spirit. I can remember I was standing in my apartment.

Joshua Hoffert (1:37:36)
Right.

Okay.

Interesting, right?

That it did, yeah.

Will Spencer (1:38:02)
You know, I remember right where I was standing, too. I could have just been thinking about it. And yeah, it was it was it was a real moment. And I think in that moment, I just chose not to fight it because, you know, there's lots of ways to respond to that. No, no, there's no surely all these people can't be lost. Surely there's some other way or, you know, what? It's like, well, maybe not. Right. And and yeah, that was a big moment.

Joshua Hoffert (1:38:07)
Right.

Right? Sure.

Right. Right.

Or it's or

it's the, the barter men who basically wants to get rid of the whole gospel of John, because he, you know, it's a later invention, right? It's Jesus actually claiming to be God. And so there's all kinds of ways people try and remove that moment. And so, wow, that's. Yeah.

Will Spencer (1:38:36)
sure.

That's it's so wrong. It's so

deeply, deeply wrong to try and do that. You're depriving people of the one hope that they have in this world for fear of whatever hurting their feelings or whatever. Why would you? Who cares? Like hurt their feeling. Don't do it intentionally to hurt their feelings, but hurt their feelings. Save their souls, you know? But yeah, and I see that everywhere. I mean, that's I see that people trying to soften the edges of that and.

Joshua Hoffert (1:38:51)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Will Spencer (1:39:10)
You know, of course, it's fair to say like none of us know what's on the other side, but we know what scripture says and this is what it says. And so if that's true, then there's a charge to go and disciple the nations. And that's why that that's why he says that, you know, and it's not without precedent as well. I mean, look at look at Noah. Right. Look at Abraham. Moses like it's not that it's not some new thing that the whole world is lost, you know, and salvation comes from a very small set of people. The new thing is that there's

Joshua Hoffert (1:39:17)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

Will Spencer (1:39:39)
millions of those people on earth today. That's the new thing. If you go back to Noah's day, everybody was wiped out because they were all lost except for one guy. Right. So it's not a new thing.

Joshua Hoffert (1:39:44)
Right.

Yeah.

You got any thoughts, Rob? You seem pensive.

Rob Mazza (1:40:00)
No,

I thinking we hadn't let go of Will in his wild journey of four or five years, whatever it was, because he would post pictures. I don't know if you sent any directly to us, but I think we followed you on Facebook. He's a great kind of photojournalist about his whole journey. Of course, our point was...

What's he doing now? know, doing ayahuasca 10 times and doing high level Buddhist meditation. So we did all we can do to pray. We just said, Lord, you know, what was deposited in him at our house at Burning Man and any other source? We jealously cover that in prayer and declare God's word will not fall short of its goal of hitting the mark.

Joshua Hoffert (1:40:34)
Alright.

Will Spencer (1:40:38)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Hoffert (1:40:38)
Right.

Alright.

Rob Mazza (1:41:00)
God's word will endure in a man. And I think that was our main basis for prayer. We weren't, I guess to say we weren't overly alarmed. We were surprised at what this gentleman put himself through. As Riley said, I think he's stress testing everything to the max. And I mean, I'm just amazed that

Jesus in your process and that's the question were you aware at various points when you're doing these crazy things and you told us some amazing stories about how weird and degrading the whole ayahuasca thing was you know it seemed to me it was very obvious that God was you know looking over your shoulder standing by you in some some form you know

Will Spencer (1:42:01)
I don't know that I would say that I felt that presence. I mean, it would be easy for me to read back into my experience that feeling, but I can see it now. I was definitely protected from the worst consequences of my decisions. All kinds of drugs, altered states, spiritual practices, you know, in India and Bali and stuff like that. So I could see and I went for it. You know, I don't do anything halfway.

Rob Mazza (1:42:08)
you

Joshua Hoffert (1:42:11)
Sure.

Will Spencer (1:42:25)
And so, so I really went for it and I can see now that God was protecting me. My experience was that I was never looking for belonging. I, and I think what catches a lot of people in the new age is the same thing that catches a lot of people in the rave scene. They're looking for something to belong to. And I was no longer looking for anything to belong to. was, I was traveling with a genuine spiritual curiosity, like help me understand. Okay. Okay. Let's do ayahuasca. Show me the worldview.

Joshua Hoffert (1:42:45)
Right.

Will Spencer (1:42:55)
And then let's take the worldview apart from the inside or here's Buddhist meditation. Show me this and let me take it apart from the inside. Cause I was looking for truth. I wanted to understand. didn't, I don't want to be part of this community of meditators. Like, great. I'm glad that you're all happy with it. I'm glad that you're all doing ayahuasca and you're all friends and it's that's fantastic. I want to understand. And so, and I think, I can give that to God as a form of protecting my own mind from giving myself over to anything.

Joshua Hoffert (1:43:12)
Right.

Sure.

Will Spencer (1:43:22)
And always maintaining it, like committing to it and doing the thing, but always maintaining a sort of intellectual remove. Even, even when I was in the depths of my ayahuasca experiences, seven ceremonies in 12 days at a retreat in, in Peru. And then I had done eight other ceremonies and other circumstances, but even in the midst of that cycle of seven, I was taking notes in my head about the whole experience. And I was, I observed that like, wow, I'm still here taking notes on my own experience. I'm not lost in it.

And I think that was a big part of it. It was that I didn't want to belong. I didn't want to just have the experience. I even said before I left to travel, this was March of 2016, that I even said that I was looking for God. Now, I didn't know what that meant. I had a particular conception in my mind, roughly. But I was sincere about it, even though I didn't know what I was saying. And so I was looking with the intent to discover and learn.

Joshua Hoffert (1:43:53)
Right.

Will Spencer (1:44:21)
And I think that protected me in many ways from being like, this is fun and I enjoy this. Let me just hang around. It's like, well, I got a nice experience out of this, but maybe I didn't find, let me go try the next thing. And so I just, tried all the things until there was one thing left. And that's, that's true.

Joshua Hoffert (1:44:22)
Right.

Right. What you have a thought? ahead, Rob.

Rob Mazza (1:44:46)
It's just a little comment and I don't know, it's something I always think of is there's tremendous agency God gives humanity. I always say one of the two most blessed things God gives us is hunger.

that ability to ask questions and go deep.

And it's such a wonderful gift. The other thing is free will. That he's so audacious to give. Humankind goes, you need to come to me of your own volition, period. No manipulation, you know, something that's so rooted in your own heart. Because with the heart, man believes unto righteousness.

I give you that freedom to work that out. And I also give you that power of free will to, even in a state of where you were, it was pretty obvious that these boundaries, I like to paint in the picture of free will. can say, no, I don't need that to be, I'm not going all the way in. All right, there are points in this journey.

At least the way I heard you tell the full version of it, you just said, no. Even in the midst of some of that ayahuasca stuff, there was like, there was this will to say, no, you're not getting any further with me. Is that correct? And I don't want to say something inappropriate here, but yeah.

Will Spencer (1:46:25)
Yeah, I never

I would

say that there were circumstances where I said, I don't know if I believe that. I don't know if I want to do more of this. don't know if I want to be part of this community or make this my religion, because people do make little subsets of the New Age their religion. There's that. And I think there were also circumstances where God said to me, no, you're not going to study that anymore. Like I studied tarot and Kabbalah for two years in San Francisco before I left to travel. And so it was

Joshua Hoffert (1:46:54)
Right.

Will Spencer (1:46:57)
two years of a 15 year curriculum as part of an actual school that taught this stuff. And so I got to the end of, I did three courses, two years of daily training and study in total. And I was never able to progress beyond that to the next. Cause I think I saw everything that I needed to, and then God snatched me out of that. Okay. You've seen what you needed to, and now you're going to move on. So I think there was, there was part of me, it's like, this doesn't seem, I know that there are a lot of people in this room that are really part of this.

they like this teacher, they like this teaching, and this is now the whole framework of their life. And I know, I shouldn't have that. Next thing. And there were things God's like, Will likes, I did enjoy that study. He's like, nope, you're done. So it's both.

Joshua Hoffert (1:47:34)
Right.

Right? What? So, with the rave scene getting involved in that, and you mentioned that, that one of the most powerful attractants is that sense of belonging and that you were, you were deeply insecure, anxious and all of that at that point in your life. Right. And, so was that, so the rave scene part of the attractant for you was that sense of belonging then. And then, right. And then the,

Will Spencer (1:47:46)
Hmm.

Very much so.

Joshua Hoffert (1:48:07)
the, maybe we call them the Will Spencer experiential years. The sense of belonging wasn't really what drove you. It was really a desire to understand and find what is true and what's not. Right? That's that'd be fair to say. Yeah. So I'm curious. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yep.

Will Spencer (1:48:22)
Yeah. Yeah, that's... Let me interject something in that really quickly. Yeah,

so Hank, because I've never actually put this... Your question helped me put this piece together. So one of the reasons that I no longer needed that sense of belonging was because I had studied and put into practice so much about what it means to be a man, that I had cultivated my own sense of being a man going forward to 2013, to these men's groups.

Joshua Hoffert (1:48:44)
Okay. Right.

Right.

Will Spencer (1:48:49)
coming to understand my own individual separate identity as a man, as Rob said, my free will to self-determine my life. That's why I ended that relationship which sent me to Burning Man because I was in a relationship with a woman who was, she was 20 years older than me. It was not a great relationship. It was not a healthy relationship. It was not going anywhere. She couldn't have kids even if she wanted to and she didn't. But I wanted to travel and I wanted to be a husband and I wanted to be a father.

Joshua Hoffert (1:48:59)
Right.

Right.

Will Spencer (1:49:16)
And it was in that summer of 2015, as part of being in these men's groups and part of going to therapy, that I had discovered that my desire to travel and my desire to be a husband and a father, ultimately, these were good desires. There was nothing wrong about these things. And even if it hurts someone else, that doesn't make the thing itself wrong. So I had spent 15 years like learning what it means to be a man, to be able to say, this is me, this is who I am.

Joshua Hoffert (1:49:17)
Right.

Right.

Alright.

Will Spencer (1:49:42)
This is the direction I'm going. I don't mean to hurt you. I know it hurts, but I'm not trying to hurt you. This is the direction I'm going to go. And so I ended the relationship, which is what sent me to Burning Man. So I was already carrying, which is why I met Spirit Tree. So I was already carrying this separate self-identity of knowing who I was in a really good way of being like, okay, I'm good inside this mind, heart, and body. And so now I can take this on the road and know that I don't need to give myself over to something.

Joshua Hoffert (1:49:50)
Right.

Will Spencer (1:50:12)
unless it's the right thing. I've never actually put those pieces together, so thank you.

Joshua Hoffert (1:50:15)
Right.

Yeah. And so then that, yeah, you're welcome. I'm just thinking out loud in a way, I guess that's what you do when you're interviewing. so in a way when Barb and Alan, you know, quote unquote, gave you permission to pursue the dream, was just the icing on the cake at that point. It was, it's kind of signed off on all the things that have been going on beneath the surface of this is my identity and I can actually make decisions for myself and be my own entity. And,

Will Spencer (1:50:23)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (1:50:48)
I'm not to say it wasn't profound. I'm just like, it was kind of the culmination of years of putting that together.

Will Spencer (1:50:49)
No, no, no, no, no.

Well, wasn't, I think you're directionally right. Like I had taken this desire and I had never given up on it, but I had stuffed it down so far inside myself that I thought it was never going to be. And so like overcoming that relationship was such an enormous effort. took months and it would just caused all these ripples throughout my life. In many ways, there's still impacts of it.

Joshua Hoffert (1:51:05)
Right. Sure. Right. Sure. yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Will Spencer (1:51:24)
people who shouldn't be involved who are quite mad at me for ending this thing 10 years ago, essentially. but over getting over that hill required such enormous expenditure of energy that it was only once I got to the side that I realized like after having talked to Barb and it was Larry and saying like, wait, yeah, I can, I can do this now. Is this okay? Right? Like, because, because I knew that I could self-determine to do to end the relationship and send my life in a new direction.

Joshua Hoffert (1:51:29)
Right, right.

Larry, sorry Larry, yeah.

Right.

Will Spencer (1:51:54)
But that was the moment where it dawned on me like, wait, I can actually do this thing. And it's been 15 years of holding on to this dream and suppressing it. Like, I want to go do it right now, but being committed in this situation that was over is like, can I go do this now? And so yes, it was the culmination. Like, I didn't really need their permission. But for me to be able to speak that was a little bit like, is it OK if I do this now? Is that really possible now? So yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (1:51:58)
Right.

Right. Right. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that before you went on, before you, you explored your life dream, found not even a sense of belonging. And cause I was thinking, you know, part of me, I'm thinking did, was it the experience with the team and going at Christmas and everything? Did that help you foster a sense of belonging? know, you know, some, some sendlets it may have there's someone I know when you have the kind of

know, spiritual mom and dads that Barb and Rob can represent. They can make I have some in my own life and Rob's been one in my life is, I actually feel comfortable just being myself, because I can finally express myself and know they're just doing it judgment free and they love me.

Will Spencer (1:53:02)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (1:53:10)
And, know, it's a, it's a sense of freedom. It's one, one, one of the things that has been said on this podcast a couple of times, Murray likes using this, this, the story where he's meeting with one of his friends who's an Orthodox priest and he's kind of goading him saying, you know, why do you guys, you guys take all your best people and lock them up in monasteries? Why do you do this?

And, you know, they're all hidden away, you know, and they're all the ones that are teaching on prayer and all this and knowing God and you're hiding them away in the monastery. Why do you do that? And the, the priest goes, his name is father Mike. goes, well, I mean, we don't, we don't really hide them in monasteries. You know, I mean, you can go to the monastery, you can visit them. They become, you become friends with them and they'll pray for you, you know, and eventually they become like a spiritual father or spiritual mother to you. And he turns to Murray and he says, Murray.

In your church culture, where do you guys find spiritual fathers and mothers? And Murray's dumbfounded at the question because it's not really baked into the culture. Sometimes we stumble into it and we're fortunate to have stumbled into it. But in the evangelical church, it's not necessarily planned. There's so much impetus is put on the head pastor to do that for everybody. And it's something that young men and women need desperately.

Will Spencer (1:54:18)
All

Joshua Hoffert (1:54:27)
is spiritual fathers and mothers to pour into their life and say, it's going to be okay, you can, you can try and fail. Like I like saying to friends of mine about my good friend Steve, who Rob has met a couple times, that Steve makes you feel so comfortable that you know, anything you screw up, can fix. And so I can just try and be the things that I'm called to be. And if I mess things up, I can go Steve help, and I know he'll be there to help.

but it just gives you a freedom to just express yourself. I go, and it's not so much that Steve has to always go, Josh, it's okay, you belong, you belong, you belong. But I've experienced that sense of, it's okay to be myself because I've got moms and dads that have poured into me. And now I don't have to find my place of belonging anymore. I can belong within myself, just being me. And then being a dad, being a husband, being a friend.

Will Spencer (1:55:19)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Hoffert (1:55:24)
And go, can not start a podcast, you know, cause I can just be myself. And, you know, I, in a way I kind of hear a similar sense of direction in your story, of that you've you've you're comfortable in yourself. And then you go, then it's after that that you go, I'm going to explore all these other things, which makes sense. You know, like, let's, let's, let's dissect. think I said to you the other day that when we were chatting, that the, the various different learning styles, right? Visual, auditory, kinetic.

And then one of the ones that really speaks to me is the argumentative learning style. want to understand the idea from the inside out so that I can pull it apart and see, it right or not? And if it's wrong, I don't want it anymore. Right. And in a way you, you did, I thought I was an all in person, but will, think you're putting me to shame in that sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what, what's the, what makes will tick today now?

Will Spencer (1:56:04)
Right. That's right.

I am a fully all-in person, that's for sure. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (1:56:23)
Like what's the, what's the thing that really gets you? know part of it is you had mentioned with the podcast now is trying to help people make sense of what's happening in the modern world. but even beyond the, beyond the surface of that, your desire to be a husband and father that's still alive and, and well, and, and the Lord's working there. And so what are the things that make you tick in the sense of, you know, if, if you could do anything.

Will Spencer (1:56:33)
Mm-hmm.

yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (1:56:50)
What would it be that you'd want to see change, transform? What would you want to do? Those kinds of things.

Will Spencer (1:56:57)
I mean, I do what I love now and God has blessed me massively because the same skills that I bring to the podcast, which is a lot of listening, a lot of asking questions that you're familiar with, having big conversations about big ideas, reading, you know, and that same set of skills is what I bring to counseling. It's the same thing, you know. I mean, obviously I ask less personal questions.

Joshua Hoffert (1:57:00)
Right.

sure.

Yep.

Right?

Will Spencer (1:57:24)
You know, and I have to be careful of that in some of my interviews. I can see things that they're saying. It's like, well, I want to ask that, but that might be, that might be a little much to ask in that question. But yeah, exactly. I have to be careful about that, but it's the same set of skills. so God has blessed me to get to be able to do that and to be able to do that. Like I never, I've said this multiple, I said this just the other day, actually, like if you had told me five years ago where I would be today, I would have said you're out of your mind.

Joshua Hoffert (1:57:31)
It would be touching something, yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

Will Spencer (1:57:53)
You know, you're on Will in five years are going to be Christian

evangelist podcast host and I was like, what? You're to be on camera in front of a microphone a couple times a week. I'm like, whatever. Forget it. Yeah. Right. But it's God has blessed it. I continue to do the work and God has really blessed the work with incredible increase. And it's it's incredible. You know, I've got thirty thousand followers on Twitter and

Joshua Hoffert (1:58:05)
Correct.

Will Spencer (1:58:21)
20,000 followers on Instagram and about to cross 10,000 subscribers on YouTube and people like what I have. They like what I have to say and they like what I have to say and they like the space I think that I create for my guests. I think they appreciate that when I have a guest on my podcast, I actually read their book. I'm careful not to book guests that I don't want to read their book.

Joshua Hoffert (1:58:26)
Right? Wow.

Right.

Will Spencer (1:58:45)
so that I can have an intelligent conversation. And they're always very grateful when I ask them questions from the thing that they've invested so much of their life into. And I enjoy passing that on to my guests. So what fires me up right now is continuing to do that, grow in that, do some more of my own content, my own thoughts, just because I'm new relatively in this world of Christianity. And I don't want to come in saying, look at me, I'm brand new. And I know all these things that I now need to tell you.

Joshua Hoffert (1:58:52)
Yeah.

Right.

Will Spencer (1:59:14)
believe very much in spending my time at the the feet of great teachers before I have anything to say. And so that's been the great blessing of the podcast is just, you know, I joke, you know, if you call a random famous or successful person and say, Hey, do you want to talk on the phone for an hour? They say, no. So do you want to talk on the phone for an hour and I'm going to record it and put it on the internet. And they say, yes. So it's a great opportunity to get to talk to incredible teachers who have blessed my life. And so I

I do what I love, I do what I love now. So I'm very grateful for that.

Joshua Hoffert (1:59:45)
awesome.

Yeah, that's awesome. I'm just thinking about how, of the things that, the refrain that some of my friends and I use, is it's better to be a voice of clarity than a voice of confusion. And, cause people, people are trying to make sense of the modern world and what what's got us where we are today. And how do I categorize all those things?

Will Spencer (2:00:06)
Hmm.

Joshua Hoffert (2:00:19)
In a way, that's the prophetic voice. That's what the prophetic voice is supposed to be, as opposed to kind of the charismatic prophets and how, you know, kind of the madhouse of what that's become. But actually making sense of what is the world like? That's, I mean, really, that's the ministry of Jesus too, on one level is this is what everything's like. I'm the way, truth and the life. If you look at me, you're going to see what it means to be a human walking this earth alive and alive and connected with God.

Will Spencer (2:00:28)
Hmm.

Joshua Hoffert (2:00:49)
And, know, that's one layer of what the ministry of Jesus was. This is, this is what life is. This is what the kingdom is. And so desperately, and I think that's one of the reasons people gravitate towards people like a Jordan Peterson who helped them make sense of this is what the world's like, and this is why it's got that way. And they become such a touching point for culture because I think, you know, in a way, that's why people vote for Trump. Like what he says about politics makes sense.

And they go that I can categorize that I can think about that. Right. It's with so many competing voices. It's, it's, you know, it's one of the, it's one of the most difficult things to do today to make sense of it. So well done. We'll on bringing that together and really making that your life pursuit. It's so desperately needed. So.

Will Spencer (2:01:39)
That's blessing from God. I think a big part of the message that I try to deliver to people is, you, the listener, can make sense of this. I believe in your capacity to assemble these pieces. I don't want to spoon feed people. I don't ever want to position myself as the guy who has all the answers, because I'm not. But I can ask the right questions of really smart people. And I believe very much in the intelligence of my listeners and their ability to process and understand and assimilate this.

Joshua Hoffert (2:01:48)
Yeah.

Right.

Will Spencer (2:02:08)
information for themselves, despite whatever their habits are, despite, you know, our short attention span from devices, despite their upbringing or their belief about their education. Like, no, I believe in you, the listener, as being able to process this information and let it enrich your life. And so I try to communicate that in what I do.

Joshua Hoffert (2:02:14)
Right. Yeah.

It's a very fathering thing to do. It really is to try and to, yeah, that's right. That's right. It very much so is.

Will Spencer (2:02:28)
What are the odds?

Rob Mazza (2:02:30)
Yeah, yeah, go figure. Go

figure that would become, I think that would become our base level, I don't know, atmosphere or about us is, they've been with Jesus and they become fathers. And I think, you know, looking at it from a 30,000 foot level, we're looking for a fulfillment of.

Will Spencer (2:02:49)
Yes.

Rob Mazza (2:02:59)
what the five-fold ministry looks like, specifically the restoration of a prophet and apostle. And fathering is really key to that. They are fathers, but also they are wise master craftsmen, which, do a dive through scripture at that word, five, wise master craftsmen, you're gonna end up right at creation.

know, wisdom was there as a wise master craftsman and Paul's words about knowing how to fit things together, visions for, knowing how to connect joints and knowing how to create families and structures. And this extends even into the structures of business. I work with a lot of business people and entrepreneurs that happen to be in our Sunday night group, Thursday night groups and

Joshua Hoffert (2:03:29)
Right.

Rob Mazza (2:03:58)
It's getting more exciting as they see their design and how it works in business structures. They're doing better than a lot of pastors with their understanding on people dynamics and fitting people together according to their design. And some people just don't fit on certain areas and they're beginning to use religious constructs to explain it rather than the business books.

Joshua Hoffert (2:04:11)
Right.

Right.

Rob Mazza (2:04:27)
which makes me very excited. Like they're recognizing these things come from God. And so in that sense, in a world that seems turned upside down, especially from COVID, I'm beginning to see like COVID was a blessing from the Lord because nothing ever went back to normal. Not really. And people try to do church again, people try to do this and that and business again. Some businesses fail. you know, the world is literally

Joshua Hoffert (2:04:46)
Right, right.

Yeah.

Rob Mazza (2:04:57)
You know, as God said, I will shake everything that can be shaken. But the good news is there are things that can't be shaken. That's the nature of God and his principles and of course, scripture, you know, and the consistency of God. So you gentlemen are in a good pocket, you know, pursuing that kind of thing as God leads you.

Joshua Hoffert (2:05:05)
Yeah.

Will Spencer (2:05:07)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Hoffert (2:05:22)
Hahaha

Yeah. Thanks, Rob. That's, that's very encouraging. Yeah. Well, I think that with that, we're, I think we're just about, I don't, my thing has restarted too many times. So I don't know exactly how long we've been going, but it's been close to two hours. know that. yeah. Yeah. So with that said, I'm, I can hear the kids and I think fatherhood is calling me and dinner time with the family.

Will Spencer (2:05:28)
Amen.

Mm-hmm.

Pretty close.

Mm.

Joshua Hoffert (2:05:56)
And so I think, we'll call the, well, Rob stomach is calling him. Yeah. And will so spiritual that he's fasting. So there we go. It's a good thing. It's a lost art form is what fasting is sometimes. so thanks so much, will for agreeing to come on and sharing. I know we could go for even longer and we'll to have you back on.

Rob Mazza (2:05:59)
Ice cream is gone, eh?

Will Spencer (2:06:00)
Yeah.

I do from time to time do that, but not today.

Joshua Hoffert (2:06:23)
And because I'd love to get into the modern take, how did the world, like you have all the guests talking about it, but let's hear Will's take on how the world got to where it is and what are some of the things we can do to, you know, on a personal way. I love, know, Jordan Petersen he's go Jordan Petersen goes, make your bed, right. A very practical way of changing your own world. And so that would be really good to have you back on to talk about some of the practical things that we can do in today's day and age.

Will Spencer (2:06:23)
Please.

Mmm.

Joshua Hoffert (2:06:52)
And, thanks so much for sharing and being vulnerable and honest and transparent and all those things. And it was just, it was so refreshing. So, thanks Rob for agreeing last second to come on and participate as Marie number two. So you did a, you did an adequate job filling in. I'll let them know that, and we have a backup for him. So yeah, there you go. Yeah.

Will Spencer (2:07:00)
Thank you, Josh.

Rob Mazza (2:07:07)
Been fun. Been fun to be with.

Thanks for setting a good platform for me. I'll practice the Coyote Howl next

time.

Joshua Hoffert (2:07:21)
Yeah, there we go. That's right. Yeah, I'll brief you a little bit more on that. That's right. So with that said, thanks everybody for tuning in. And our prayer for you is that what we were talking about really deeply touched you. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to us. In the show description, you can find the websites, my website, you'll find Will's website, Rob.

Will Spencer (2:07:21)
There you go.

Joshua Hoffert (2:07:46)
has a website somewhere, but I don't know that it's even doing anything. So maybe I'll link to your Facebook. Yeah. and, and we'd love to be a help. And especially as, as Will goes forward with, opening his counseling for men, and we'll make sure that we update the podcast description. So let me know when that's live and going forward, I'll update the podcast description for that. so, and point people to that and maybe we'll have you back to talk about that too.

Will Spencer (2:08:10)
Will do.

Joshua Hoffert (2:08:14)
And, yeah. So thanks guys and everybody, God bless. And it's been wonderful to be together.

People on this episode

Joshua Hoffert

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Murray Dueck

Co-host