Questioning theology and meeting a priest: an interview with Chris Hawthorne Part 2

In part 2 of their conversation, Murray, Josh, and Chris talk about ancestral sin vs original sin, discovering the Desert Fathers, the Dark Night of the Soul, the potential witchcraft of "once saved, always saved," and much more)! Tune in this week as they dive in with Chris Hawthorne, the Fr Deacon at Holy Nativity Church in Langley, BC, Canada.

For more about Chris and the Holy Nativity Church visit: https://www.holynativitychurch.ca/

For more about Voices from the Desert and to join the Patreon, visit: https://www.patreon.com/VoicesfromtheDesert

Transcript

00;00;17;18 - 00;00;27;18
Joshua Hoffert
I kind of think that the popular notion of salvation is basically witchcraft. Oh, yeah.

00;00;27;20 - 00;00;33;15
Chris Hawthorne
I think you have to unpack that a bit, Josh, seeing as I'm kind of trying to help you get in more trouble. Okay?

00;00;33;18 - 00;00;41;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, right. Thanks, Joe. Thank you. Chris. It's grabbing that way. It's akin to an incantation.

00;00;41;02 - 00;00;42;22
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Oh, I see what you're saying.

00;00;42;23 - 00;01;10;07
Joshua Hoffert
It's akin to an incantation that produces a desired result. But I'm not responsible for anything that happens afterwards. I the be the only person.

00;01;10;10 - 00;01;18;03
Joshua Hoffert
And just thinking about my own journey. Because in a way, there's there's similar timeframes.

00;01;18;04 - 00;01;18;22
Chris Hawthorne
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

00;01;18;23 - 00;01;20;25
Joshua Hoffert
Well, you know, it's 2013, 20.

00;01;20;25 - 00;01;22;07
Chris Hawthorne
14.

00;01;22;10 - 00;01;46;08
Joshua Hoffert
And, yes, 20, 2011 is when we went through a major shake up in that we had been my wife and I had been serving in a ministry in the Lower Mainland in BC, and, the, the husband wife that were running it at that point, their marriage kind of crumbled right before us. Yeah. And the whole thing fell apart.

00;01;46;08 - 00;02;12;20
Joshua Hoffert
That's when I and I ended up taking over. Not not because, not because I was, like, the heir apparent, but because I was one of the only people left, and I didn't have anything else to do. Yeah, because I was in Canada. I was married to a Canadian in Canada without a work permit, working on the permanent residency stuff so I could, I could I was like, well, I can do it because I don't have anything else to do, right?

00;02;12;20 - 00;02;44;17
Joshua Hoffert
I literally can't do anything else. And, so I ended up taking over that that ministry. Yeah. But was that so that was 2011 and that was really the inauguration into that. I, like God has totally abandoned me. I don't feel his presence and I don't hear his voice. And I've done. I'm so low. And I remember I would sit in my room that the office room I had, we'd we,

00;02;44;21 - 00;03;12;20
Joshua Hoffert
And this is how charismatic, you know, we we were are in that sense, my mother in law had gone to Bethel and did three years at the school there down in Redding. And so we were we were staying in her house while she was gone for our first few years of marriage. The one of the one of the, one of the rooms was the office room, and I had a prayer chair in there, and I would sit and I would feel totally empty.

00;03;12;22 - 00;03;36;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Like nothing. And it's like, you know, you're supposed to feel like tears and emotions and. Yeah, I'd feel nothing. Yeah, right. And I would just sit there and I remember resolving it was like six months straight. I would, I didn't resolving the whole season actually lasted about two years, but I would resolving that I'm okay. Like, I know that you exist and I know you're good.

00;03;36;02 - 00;04;03;22
Joshua Hoffert
I'm not convinced that that's not the case. But I don't understand this. But I know that I want to know you, so I'm just I'm just going to keep doing this consistently, right? I'm still going to show up. And you might not be here. Am I perception of you might. I might not be able to see you. And, but I'm just going to I'm going to sit here with the word on my lap, and I'm going to act as if you're here.

00;04;03;24 - 00;04;30;03
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Yeah. And and that was so, you know, you want to quote unquote, call that the dark night of the soul. Well, yeah. You know, that's the it's it's there's, there's I, I read John of the cross Dark Night of the soul back in 2007 and didn't understand a word of it. And and then, you know, a bonus is in his letter 13 to his disciples, you know, Bishop of Monas is a disciple of Anthony.

00;04;30;06 - 00;05;02;06
Joshua Hoffert
He, he talks about that, that, being forged in, in solitude with the Lord in the wilderness and his, his one paragraph is enough to sum up the whole thing. You know, you get John of the crosses. He wrote four books, and they're all basically the same thing over and over again. And, and so it wasn't until I came out of that and I remember coming out of it, like, it was like there was like a light turned on, and and it wasn't that I felt emotionally put together.

00;05;02;06 - 00;05;28;20
Joshua Hoffert
I still felt discombobulated. I still felt empty and depleted, and but I remember coming out of it, and, I was actually teaching a class, and I was teaching a section on the dark night of the soul. This is one of John Paul Jackson's classes. You would. You would probably know that name. Yeah. Yeah. And, so I was teaching a section on The Night of the soul when it dawned on me that that's what I'd been in the last two years.

00;05;28;23 - 00;05;29;01
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;05;29;01 - 00;05;29;24
Murray Dueck
While your teaching.

00;05;29;24 - 00;05;53;12
Joshua Hoffert
Was. I was teaching. But it dawned on me, and I almost started weeping because I because I was, I was teaching about how it's his mercy and care to lead us in the seasons like that. Right? The preparation right now. Now, Mike, I would characterize it under, thesis for I would that's probably a better way of talking about that whole journey that the three stages of the spiritual life there.

00;05;53;15 - 00;06;19;09
Joshua Hoffert
And, and, and I particularly acute sense of or or I, I find that, what's his name, Silwan and sor for neither the enlargement of the heart. Right. The that talking about the divine abandonment. Yeah. And stuff like, that's just better language, I think. And and helpful understanding. I think their stuff is actually more helpful an application than John of the cross.

00;06;19;09 - 00;06;41;23
Joshua Hoffert
So I'll just put that disclaimer out there. I actually wrote a book called Dark Nights of Spiritual Struggle, a little 50 page booklet to try and help people find their way through those kinds of seasons after, you know, years after I came out of it going, I wish someone would have handed me this book. What would I say to someone who was either coming out of it, was in it so that they could find some hope in the midst of the process?

00;06;41;26 - 00;07;00;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. And, and so, so coming out of it and, and not and the thing I think that struck me the most was and this is where I'm hearing what you're saying and going, oh, yeah, I can see that. The thing that struck me the most was that I thought when you came out like this, because it had been taught to me, right.

00;07;00;08 - 00;07;19;01
Joshua Hoffert
Like people taught me, this is what. So I had some. I had, thankfully, at least had some kind of context that this can happen. And but I remember when I came out of it, I was like, I was. So in a way, I was almost disillusioned because I was like, I thought you were supposed to be more perfect when you came out of this.

00;07;19;07 - 00;07;46;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I thought you were supposed to be more put together, and I feel less in control than I ever have. I feel less, able than I ever have. Right. And I feel more aware of just how, you know, not how much work there is to do, but just how how easy it is for me to be a human in the baser sense of the word.

00;07;46;13 - 00;07;46;23
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;07;47;00 - 00;07;49;07
Chris Hawthorne
See, that sounds really awesome. And that sounds.

00;07;49;09 - 00;08;07;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I wanted that. Well, so then that's when I discovered the Desert Fathers. Yeah. But the here and here's where I'm, I'm thinking about, you know, that I didn't like here. So this is this is the funny part I'm thinking about this or just the interesting part. I, I didn't have a father. Mike. Yeah, I did, because I didn't know.

00;08;07;19 - 00;08;25;20
Joshua Hoffert
I mean, I was in right at that point. Yeah. We, we live pretty close to each other, but we didn't know each other, so I didn't and I and really because I had moved to Canada, was involved in a community that that was upended when the, when the marriage of the, leaders fell apart. I didn't have any friends.

00;08;25;23 - 00;08;54;12
Joshua Hoffert
I didn't have any community. We had we had had a small house church that I had a couple people going to. I didn't really know Murray at the time. I think maybe Marina had chatted once or twice. I didn't know Steve, our mutual friend Steve. So 2011, 2012, 2013. It wasn't until 2012 that I started working for the church that, that I ended up meeting her brother through, so I didn't have anybody around me to help care.

00;08;54;15 - 00;09;11;13
Joshua Hoffert
I had my own dad. I would call him and talk to him. Right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And and I would wrestle with with my wife. We were not wrestle physically, you know, when we did that, that was fun. But the, And she would wear and she would wear. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah, we were married after all.

00;09;11;13 - 00;09;33;15
Joshua Hoffert
So it's totally legit and holy before the eyes of the Lord. The, but we would talk about this stuff, and that's when I discovered, the Desert Fathers, and so I, I can't I was given, actually, Aaron got me a copy of Bernard Mcginn's. It was like a history of Western mysticism. Mysticism in general wasn't Western.

00;09;33;20 - 00;09;55;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. And and so it showed the periods of time and quotes and passages, under different topics. And so I would I was as I was going through that, I would go, oh, like, who's this person. That's an interesting, you know, a few paragraphs on this particular topic. And so I'd, I'd go and I found out that you can find most of that stuff as PDFs online.

00;09;55;04 - 00;09;56;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. It's all in the public domain.

00;09;56;23 - 00;09;57;19
Chris Hawthorne
Right, right.

00;09;57;21 - 00;10;17;13
Joshua Hoffert
And so my first version of the apothic, a patch from the desert, the sayings of the Desert Fathers, was a PDF that I found online because I had seen a quote in Bernard Mcginn's thing and came across like, oh, that, that. And then all of a sudden I'm reading the desert sayings of the Desert Fathers, and I'm going, Holy moly, they've just described my experience.

00;10;17;14 - 00;10;20;02
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah. And you're like, I'm not the only one.

00;10;20;02 - 00;10;21;26
Joshua Hoffert
I'm not the only creature.

00;10;21;29 - 00;10;29;05
Murray Dueck
That has got a rebuked the devil and fires more and more and shout more and scream more. Come on God, break through.

00;10;29;07 - 00;10;32;06
Joshua Hoffert
And but and you're like, but I didn't I didn't have anybody.

00;10;32;06 - 00;10;32;25
Murray Dueck


00;10;32;28 - 00;10;49;27
Joshua Hoffert
There was, but I didn't have anybody to help me through it in that same sense. Right. I was just, I was reading that and then I would get, you know, I would get something else. And then I get, you know, Macarius Homilies and I'm like, oh, my goodness, of course, this makes so much sense. And then eventually I get the ever Totino's.

00;10;49;27 - 00;10;53;05
Joshua Hoffert
I ordered a whole swaths from the yeah, I got a CTO.

00;10;53;10 - 00;10;54;10
Murray Dueck
From Josh out.

00;10;54;10 - 00;11;18;08
Joshua Hoffert
Of that I gave I gave Maria free set. I gave I started working through that and that was around that time where I was like, as I had come out of so 2015, 2016 where I was, you know, starting to my, my faith has been quite restructured in that sense. Yeah. Right. And, and I, I'm no longer all that evangelical at that point.

00;11;18;10 - 00;11;56;00
Joshua Hoffert
And I'm, I've got, I've got, I've got a vision on some level of a different way of seeing things. Right. And but it was metered out through the writings of the Desert Fathers largely. And and I had read Catholic guys before that and, and after that, you know, Teresa of Avila and Salisu and, and you know, and but it was, it was that and then I started working through the average Latinos, the four volume set, which is kind of the big compilation of, of the writings of the Desert Fathers.

00;11;56;02 - 00;12;18;20
Joshua Hoffert
And it was in the midst of that that, it things started to make more sense to me. I would just come across the concepts and go, yes, right. And so that was when I was like, I need to write about these things because there's other people that are going to go through my experience, and they're not going to have anybody that's been able to say, hey, look, there's a better answer than just hype yourself up more emotionally and then eventually crash and burn.

00;12;18;20 - 00;12;19;06
Chris Hawthorne
Yeah. Totally.

00;12;19;06 - 00;12;45;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And, you know, worship service wasn't and I was gone. You know, it was painful. I was going through like friends, rejection from friends and broken relationships. And I was like, what is happening here? I'm so alone and abandoned. And, and so it's interesting. I can hear so much of your experience. Yeah. And the and the point where we diverges and father Mike helped me and I'm like, I wish I would have had a father Mike, at that point to help me.

00;12;45;02 - 00;12;47;26
Joshua Hoffert
Right. But thankfully, I had some of the Saints to walk with me.

00;12;47;26 - 00;12;54;00
Chris Hawthorne
Yeah, yeah. And and so. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Exactly. And neither of us are dead yet. So there's still hope, right?

00;12;54;02 - 00;12;55;25
Joshua Hoffert
I'm not. Yeah.

00;12;55;28 - 00;12;56;26
Murray Dueck
I'm not dead yet.

00;12;56;26 - 00;12;57;15
Chris Hawthorne
Exactly.

00;12;57;15 - 00;13;01;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. I'm happy. I'm, Yeah.

00;13;01;15 - 00;13;12;26
Chris Hawthorne
This this this this kind of like the way Saints Ronnie talked about is is sylvan's, spiritual child. Yeah. Is the way up. Is the way down, right? Right.

00;13;13;01 - 00;13;15;09
Murray Dueck
Yeah. There's a good statement, right?

00;13;15;09 - 00;13;33;17
Chris Hawthorne
And this is the thing. Right? So, like, you want to be first will be last. You know, you want to. You want to save your life. You got to lose it. Like it's that paradoxical thing. So, like, yeah, we are failures. And so and that's the, that's the wild thing about the saints too, right? The like these holy people, how do they talk about themselves?

00;13;33;20 - 00;14;00;07
Chris Hawthorne
It looks from an outside perspective, like, oh, so much toxic shame. I'm a sinner. I'm the worst of sinners, right? But like they were granted this awareness, which is within the Orthodox tradition, we have this prayer, this prayer of Saint Ephrem, which at the end says, Grant me to see my own sin. Yeah, exactly. Yes. That's a lovely one I especially really love about the Garden of Eden.

00;14;00;07 - 00;14;00;29
Chris Hawthorne
That's an incredible.

00;14;00;29 - 00;14;02;27
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's right.

00;14;02;29 - 00;14;03;04
Chris Hawthorne
But.

00;14;03;04 - 00;14;06;28
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Why would I want to see my own sins? I want to.

00;14;06;28 - 00;14;24;07
Chris Hawthorne
Meditate on that, why would I? Well, because that's part of the reality that when Christ shines as light in our lives, we see more clearly the work that needs to be done. And it doesn't feel great, but like that's like, if I'm aware that I have cancer, I'm more likely to go to the hospital and accept the treatment from that.

00;14;24;07 - 00;14;26;18
Chris Hawthorne
That's right. And so the right.

00;14;26;18 - 00;14;27;12
Murray Dueck
Way to say that.

00;14;27;15 - 00;14;36;15
Chris Hawthorne
You know, and so I think there's and it and on top of that it produces humility. Right. Yeah. And then I'm not going to be such a jerk to all my friends because I'm like, oh yeah.

00;14;36;17 - 00;14;37;25
Murray Dueck


00;14;37;28 - 00;14;49;01
Chris Hawthorne
Yeah, I'm upset with them because I think they're all a mess and they're jerks. But oh yeah, I'm a jerk to. And so. Well, if I can be 10% less likely to point my finger, thank God. Right.

00;14;49;03 - 00;15;10;06
Joshua Hoffert
In a way, you've I think you kind of in an adjacent way. You've touched on one of the major differences between the evangelical world, the Catholic world and the Orthodox world is is the nature of sin. And, you know, that's one of the big distinctions, right? Like when you go in the evangelical world, we I well, I that I'm just kind of playing the devil's advocate.

00;15;10;08 - 00;15;24;03
Joshua Hoffert
But we would go, oh, it's original sin. And so now you need a, a legal adjustment. Yeah. To get you free from that. Right. And in the Orthodox world, you would go like you would say, I think the term is ancestral sin, right? Is I think, yeah.

00;15;24;03 - 00;15;24;29
Chris Hawthorne
That's that's the term.

00;15;24;29 - 00;15;45;14
Joshua Hoffert
Something. But yeah, but it's characterized more as a sickness. Yeah. That's inherent to humanity that needs to be healed. Yeah. And and so you're going, well tell me what the sickness is. Yeah. Where in the in when it's a legal realm post. Augustinian original sin. Thing is it's not. It's you're like, okay, well, I said the prayer.

00;15;45;14 - 00;15;47;07
Joshua Hoffert
Why didn't everything get better?

00;15;47;09 - 00;15;47;27
Chris Hawthorne
Right?

00;15;47;29 - 00;16;06;28
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Like now I'm now I'm justified by faith. And so I have the I, I said the prayer, I have the faith, but I'm it's not I'm still a mess. And it throws people for a loop. Yeah. Because they're going I thought it was supposed to get better. And it's like, if you understand, like, actually, no, it's not supposed to get better because there's a lot of work to do now.

00;16;06;28 - 00;16;07;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;16;07;24 - 00;16;12;06
Chris Hawthorne
Right. Just took my one med, you know, my one pill.

00;16;12;08 - 00;16;12;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;16;12;23 - 00;16;29;21
Chris Hawthorne
So they better. Right? Sometimes there's like. That's right. Medicines over a period of time. Right. So like, yeah, it's like real life, right. You know, and then like, right. It makes sense of so many other things. Right. Like, so why why was I so screwed up? Well, your dad was an alcoholic. That was his sickness. And did it.

00;16;29;21 - 00;16;30;09
Murray Dueck
Affect and.

00;16;30;12 - 00;16;34;27
Chris Hawthorne
Did it affect him? Yeah. And it affected everyone around him. Right.

00;16;34;27 - 00;16;35;10
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;16;35;15 - 00;17;05;00
Chris Hawthorne
And that's Adam, right? Adam started the train, and then all of us, we add our $0.02, and before you know it, the whole cosmos is messed up. And I think we get that experientially. But so, sure, it gets past that mechanistic kind of way of like where, you know, I have to do this thing or say this thing and expecting some sort of transactional result, like if it's a healing metaphor, I, we kind of get that a bit easier, I think.

00;17;05;03 - 00;17;05;14
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;17;05;15 - 00;17;26;20
Joshua Hoffert
You know, in a way, I, I, I just want to say this and I want to give space. I've dominated talking. So I want to hear Murray's thoughts. The I, I, I like saying things that get us in trouble, you know, so I've noticed that I kind of think and, you know, hear me as I say this all, I'm looking at you two because I know you're right.

00;17;26;20 - 00;17;46;04
Joshua Hoffert
Now you're subject to your subject. I'm co-host. Right. So, it's kind of thing. Yeah, I kind of think the the popular notion of salvation is basically witchcraft. Oh, and, you know, out of mercy, I think I think.

00;17;46;04 - 00;17;51;06
Chris Hawthorne
You unpack that a bit, Josh, seeing as I'm kind of trying to help you get into more trouble, apparently.

00;17;51;08 - 00;17;52;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. Yeah.

00;17;52;14 - 00;17;55;19
Murray Dueck
Thank you Chris I appreciate it. It's grabbing. That's okay.

00;17;55;25 - 00;17;58;20
Joshua Hoffert
It's akin to an incantation.

00;17;58;22 - 00;17;59;02
Chris Hawthorne
Yeah.

00;17;59;03 - 00;18;00;15
Murray Dueck
Oh, I see what you're saying.

00;18;00;16 - 00;18;11;23
Joshua Hoffert
It's akin to an incantation that produces a desired result. But I'm not responsible for anything that happens afterwards. And so, yeah, in a way, it's a claim.

00;18;11;23 - 00;18;13;02
Murray Dueck
The magic wand over me.

00;18;13;02 - 00;18;39;24
Joshua Hoffert
Wave the magic wand. I've said the incantation. I've practiced the magic. Yeah. And now I have acquired the result, and I'm good. Right? So I've manipulated the system, and now I'm outside of responsibility. And, And so I kind of think, in a way, the way we characterize it is and I get, you know, I get it like the, the, the, the, the popular notion coming through the West, John and Charles Wesley and the Reformation, the revivalists and all that kind of stuff.

00;18;39;24 - 00;19;02;09
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Was like, well, we got massive crowds of people. So how do we facilitate this whole thing? Yeah. And and what what started out as Jonathan Edwards preaching, you know, sinners in the hand of an angry God, and everybody's concerned that the earth is going to open up and swallow them. So there's a tangible reality to the preaching of the word that impacted them and moved them.

00;19;02;09 - 00;19;16;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. You know, what started in that turns into we preach the gospel message and you say a prayer, right? And and now you're saved. And that's where it's like, yeah, that kind of turn a new incantation. Yeah. And yeah. So without any real.

00;19;16;29 - 00;19;23;08
Chris Hawthorne
Substance, it's a very old way. Yeah. You in a sense, like a pagan way of thinking. Yeah. But it's not super modern.

00;19;23;14 - 00;19;26;23
Murray Dueck
It's very agnostic, you know. Agnostic in a way, isn't it?

00;19;26;27 - 00;19;36;21
Chris Hawthorne
Yeah, well, I think so. Systems are great because you can you can package them, you can understand that. You can see the periphery and you don't need a relationship for a system. Yeah.

00;19;36;22 - 00;19;37;15
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Yeah.

00;19;37;15 - 00;19;38;15
Murray Dueck
Yeah. There you go.

00;19;38;22 - 00;19;43;04
Joshua Hoffert
Which is I can still be in control. Yeah, yeah. But the more control.

00;19;43;06 - 00;19;44;11
Murray Dueck
The worse it gets.

00;19;44;13 - 00;19;45;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah.

00;19;45;08 - 00;19;46;29
Chris Hawthorne
Right. Yeah. But I think.

00;19;47;04 - 00;19;47;25
Joshua Hoffert
That's what I mean by.

00;19;47;25 - 00;20;07;04
Chris Hawthorne
That. I think eventually anyone who's got a grain of self honesty, you know, or self-awareness, eventually they figure out, Is this it? You know, I think I think most people, they might start there, but I think they, they at least unspoken, they take their head out of that camp and it's more fluid at some point. They have to.

00;20;07;04 - 00;20;25;29
Joshua Hoffert
Be. Yeah. Yeah. At the very least, what we can do here is we can help other people who have wrestled with it not realize they're not alone. Yeah. And wrestle with it. Right. Because because in the in the context of the evangelical church, it's it's like, oh, you're not allowed to question those things. Yeah. And as soon as you question those things, you're an outsider.

00;20;25;29 - 00;20;36;12
Joshua Hoffert
And it's like, you know, stop telling people they're an outsider, right. Like you're actually they mean you guys are actually the outsiders. Like you started the outside thing like 500 years ago.

00;20;36;15 - 00;20;40;09
Chris Hawthorne
Yeah. Okay. So yeah, they're the new kids on the block, so to speak. Yeah.

00;20;40;09 - 00;20;41;13
Joshua Hoffert
So to speak, anyway.

00;20;41;17 - 00;21;01;27
Chris Hawthorne
But I also try to I feel like, yeah, besides this, with my products and friends, especially when we start getting into church history, I'm like the first thousand years of church history. That's our collective inheritance. There was only one. There's only one church up until the first thousand years. And so that collectively, all of ours. So like if you're looking into it, don't think, oh, I have to become orthodox.

00;21;01;27 - 00;21;07;08
Chris Hawthorne
Think about I'm looking to recapture the truth that is from my ancestors. You know that just.

00;21;07;10 - 00;21;08;21
Murray Dueck
But well said, well said.

00;21;08;22 - 00;21;25;22
Chris Hawthorne
That's just as true for all of us. So, you know, kind of taking the scariness out of it a little bit because. Yeah, that the, the church always thought it well, always thought of itself. Don't be too broad. We're talking about the church fathers because there is some, diversity. But yeah, they talked about the church hospital, so.

00;21;25;22 - 00;21;29;20
Chris Hawthorne
Right. Yeah. You go with your sickness, you go to the hospital.

00;21;29;23 - 00;21;33;10
Joshua Hoffert
You know, Augustine talks about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The original sin guy.

00;21;33;15 - 00;21;41;11
Chris Hawthorne
It's it's not, it's, you it's not a weird fringe thing, you know? So. Yeah, I found it helpful.

00;21;41;11 - 00;21;46;23
Joshua Hoffert
Sorry, Maria. I don't know you feeling the need to disavow anything, it looks like.

00;21;46;23 - 00;22;00;27
Murray Dueck
Well, yeah, it'd be good to talk. Yeah, I it I got stuff to say on this, but I just had this picture of a big. Well, you know what I did, and I've been hampered by a little bit of a wander there. And at Saint Augustine walks up to me and goes, hi, I'm the original sin God.

00;22;01;00 - 00;22;17;15
Joshua Hoffert
It's like, yeah, that's right. That's what he's known for out there were you? Yeah. You're. That looks good. Fill the hole, all the bookcases behind me and more. And he's the original sin guy. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'm sorry. Yeah. You know, that's right, I.

00;22;17;16 - 00;22;18;20
Murray Dueck
Don't do I always laugh of that.

00;22;18;20 - 00;22;20;01
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And,

00;22;20;03 - 00;22;24;01
Chris Hawthorne
God willing, they've, I know they've had that discussion. Yeah.

00;22;24;04 - 00;22;25;29
Murray Dueck
Yeah, they were they worked that one out.

00;22;25;29 - 00;22;32;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Right. But he and Basil the Great sat down and went, well, you know. You sure? Basil should have.

00;22;32;19 - 00;22;34;08
Murray Dueck
Read the Greek Fathers.

00;22;34;10 - 00;22;37;14
Chris Hawthorne
Well, that was his problem, but he didn't know Greek.

00;22;37;17 - 00;22;55;04
Murray Dueck
Right. That's right. He didn't know Greek, did he? Didn't read the Greek Fathers. He had no understanding of those things, which is quite interesting for somebody who is, you know, a lawyer and very well educated. And there's this whole aspect of the church you just goes, well, just get rid of that and begin again. Yeah. So yeah, it's quite interesting anyway.

00;22;55;08 - 00;22;55;22
Chris Hawthorne
Yeah.

00;22;55;23 - 00;23;10;28
Murray Dueck
So he's got the best quotes. He's got the best quotes. The heart is restless until it's finds its rest in you. Right. That's a good quote. He saw us so we could begin to learn how to seek him, you know. You know the guy. You guys got a little flash, you know. Yeah.

00;23;10;29 - 00;23;11;29
Joshua Hoffert
So. Yeah.

00;23;12;03 - 00;23;13;09
Chris Hawthorne
There you go.

00;23;13;11 - 00;23;27;28
Murray Dueck
Have you ever heard. I've. I've shared this before, but, Chris, have you ever heard this story? It's a good story. He's sitting on the beach by the ocean trying to figure Trinity out. He's figures. I can figure this out, and he's trying to figure it out. And there's some little kid taking a spoonful of water out of the ocean and dumping it a hole.

00;23;28;00 - 00;23;30;15
Murray Dueck
And the kid does this again and again. Have you heard this? You look like.

00;23;30;15 - 00;23;32;26
Chris Hawthorne
You. You seen, but keep telling it. But it sounds.

00;23;32;27 - 00;23;48;12
Murray Dueck
Oh, yeah. So finally he's like, what's with this kid? So he walks up to the kid. No, what are you doing? Because, well, I try to dump the ocean down this little hole. And Augustine laughs. And God, they'll never be able to do it. And the kid smiles and goes, isn't that like you trying to figure out the Trinity head disappears.

00;23;48;14 - 00;23;50;00
Chris Hawthorne
There you go.

00;23;50;03 - 00;23;51;20
Murray Dueck
Yeah, there's some mystery. Fauria.

00;23;51;21 - 00;24;00;28
Chris Hawthorne
Holy. I mean, I forget which church father said it, but they also said something along the lines of the Trinity is a crucifixion for the mind. It's like.

00;24;01;00 - 00;24;01;21
Joshua Hoffert
Like.

00;24;01;24 - 00;24;04;07
Chris Hawthorne
Yeah. Like good luck with that one.

00;24;04;10 - 00;24;05;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;24;05;19 - 00;24;13;12
Murray Dueck
Oh man. You know, in that regard, I think it was Gregory of Nyssa said, God's name is not to be known. It's to be wondered at.

00;24;13;14 - 00;24;14;17
Chris Hawthorne
Yeah. You know.

00;24;14;19 - 00;24;36;13
Murray Dueck
Just because we want to know what we think, if we know it as Westerners, if I know it, then I know, then I know, then I know God. If I just know this and, and, I, you know, again, you know, that latest lady goes to see this monkey and he says to the monk, have been reading Saint Maximus because you've been reading Saint Maximus, then how will you be saved?

00;24;36;15 - 00;24;46;08
Murray Dueck
Meaning like, just because you've read it doesn't mean you know it. You haven't lived it if you just read it in a book. And, you know, we we just think so much. If I read it, if I do this, I'll get this.

00;24;46;08 - 00;24;46;23
Chris Hawthorne
Yeah.

00;24;46;23 - 00;25;08;28
Murray Dueck
You know, and that's kind of that witchcraft thing that we think if we do this, we'll get this. And it used to drive me crazy because I, I remember you yelling at God. God, your word says, if I seek your face, all these things will be added to you. But they're not, you know, like what the deal and I it because he's thinking about making me, you know, be like his bride to reign will rule them forever.

00;25;09;05 - 00;25;29;12
Murray Dueck
And I'm thinking about how do I get out of the problem I'm in, in the moment. So I'm stuck in time thinking about how do I function in time? And he's thinking eternally. Yeah. And we're not even on the same scale of. Of what? We're even comparing life to. Yeah, yeah. And then I should do this. I should get this and it'll affect this.

00;25;29;14 - 00;25;56;10
Murray Dueck
And Lord's like, no, I'm thinking eternally of your development into becoming and and I remember, you know, I remember there was a poll. If somebody asked me where it is, I'll never be able to find it. So my apologies, but, one of the big, organizations, Christian, you know, outreach organizations did something a bit British Columbia Institute of Technology and have all they people they they shared the four spiritual laws with, you know, are you a sinner?

00;25;56;10 - 00;26;17;06
Murray Dueck
Do you believe that Jesus made their way right. And, and out of all the people they talk to? And I don't know exactly what that number is, but it's in the hundreds. I think it's supposedly 90% of the people prayed the prayer. Yes, I and they came back a year later and they couldn't find any Christians. And they said and they asked themselves, the people why?

00;26;17;06 - 00;26;39;20
Murray Dueck
Because. And their response was, well, it didn't work. And and the reason is how it was explained to them. If you pray this now, you're going to magically isn't real. Exactly. Once you do this, you're going to get all of this. Yeah. And, and, and I remember one spiritual directors had and had said, I guess he, I think it was a Catholic guy.

00;26;39;22 - 00;27;01;07
Murray Dueck
All these Protestants started come to him and he was starting to get really bothered. He goes, I don't understand. Like they go they go now, is it going to get better? They keep saying this to me now. Is it going to get better? And his friends said to him, you don't understand. When the charismatics come to you, what they're thinking in their head is they want that Paul knocked off the Saul knock off the horse conversion experience, or now they're Paul.

00;27;01;07 - 00;27;12;23
Murray Dueck
Everything's changed. They don't understand what they're getting is walking with Jesus on the road to a mass where they're not figuring it out, and Jesus is talking to them and they don't get it. And then when they do get it, he disappears.

00;27;12;25 - 00;27;14;07
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, I like that.

00;27;14;07 - 00;27;34;04
Murray Dueck
They're not understanding the transition. They just want a powerful experience. Bring me the anointing. We're done. Right. And it doesn't it doesn't work that way. But that's that whole magical thing. If I do this, I do this. I'll get this. I just got to pray more fast, more, declare more, go to more conferences, and and you just go, you know, you know how I ended up with the father mixing?

00;27;34;04 - 00;27;55;10
Murray Dueck
Well, getting to the whole thing. And it's on our, like, first session, first year when I was doing God Rock and it all fell apart. I mean, I heard God, like, audibly say to me very kindly, I've beaten you. I, David, like, how do you explain that in the charismatic setting, when you're trying to win and overcome all the time and the Lord's, and when do you beat you?

00;27;55;12 - 00;28;13;27
Murray Dueck
You know that? And I that's what led me to the Desert Fathers is like, who teaches this? Yeah. Nobody in my charismatic structure was talking anything about, transition of losing. I mean, you know, if I, if I did a conference on suffering, I know exactly what would happen. You know, one would come, I get a day off.

00;28;14;00 - 00;28;14;23
Murray Dueck
So Chris.

00;28;14;23 - 00;28;15;22
Joshua Hoffert
Chris would come, right?

00;28;15;22 - 00;28;36;25
Murray Dueck
Chris Christie would go. So. So I didn't mean that's how I tripped into the Desert Fathers without getting into that more because that's on a tape somewhere. It's like, well, who believes in this? And you start to read the follow. Caleb, I think I was I had read, Mike Stewart, who was an Anglican priest, had given me the way of the Pilgrim, and that's what started to mess me up with that book.

00;28;36;26 - 00;28;37;11
Murray Dueck
And then they.

00;28;37;11 - 00;28;38;12
Joshua Hoffert
Turned me on to that.

00;28;38;15 - 00;28;45;23
Murray Dueck
Galea. Yeah. And then you buy the file locally and you start. Oh, God. And you start talking in falsetto, read in that way, you know, it's all. Yeah, you go.

00;28;45;24 - 00;28;46;28
Chris Hawthorne
Even save.

00;28;47;00 - 00;28;47;08
Joshua Hoffert
Me.

00;28;47;10 - 00;29;08;02
Murray Dueck
Oh, Jesus. And you, you know, you read The Case of Jerusalem and he says, when the things of the heart begin to be exposed. I'm paraphrasing. Yeah. And just because the circumstances and stages, the circumstances, pushing it up disappear does not mean the heart is here. Because when the circumstances come back, the things into the heart emerge again.

00;29;08;02 - 00;29;24;11
Murray Dueck
I'm like, yep, that's my life. That must be transformed. Oh man. So yeah, yeah. And you just end up going exactly. Yeah. That's yeah, that's a spiritual principle. That's what I'm expecting. Anyone else out there who believes this stuff.

00;29;24;13 - 00;29;46;10
Chris Hawthorne
And that, you know, that was another aspect that really felt like, okay, I can do the rest of my life here was, yeah, Orthodoxy had this very rich theology of suffering and failure. Yeah. And yeah. And so I was like, oh, okay. So it brought up a, bigger picture to what it means to be human, because, I mean, you're not going to get out of it.

00;29;46;13 - 00;29;50;13
Murray Dueck
Bigger picture what it means to be human. I'm sorry. That's brilliant. But I mean, that's.

00;29;50;13 - 00;30;13;24
Chris Hawthorne
That's the thing. It's because, like, I say this to some of my relatives and friends, like, because the picture I think that I used to have was, was kind of an upward picture, right, of breakthrough for, empowering leaders. Yeah, I don't mean bad per se, but it's just incomplete, right? First off, not going to be leaders, and most of us even shouldn't be.

00;30;13;24 - 00;30;18;12
Chris Hawthorne
And I say that as I'm wearing this, Lord have mercy on everyone else. And me.

00;30;18;14 - 00;30;21;29
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Right. And we have to have.

00;30;21;29 - 00;30;33;28
Chris Hawthorne
A place for a superior spirituality that is both good in the fullest sense and on another level, kind of mediocre, you know, like, you know, very human.

00;30;33;28 - 00;30;35;00
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Very human.

00;30;35;00 - 00;30;53;16
Chris Hawthorne
Like most of our lives is the mundane things, you know, doing the dishes, taking the dog out, repairing the roof. But if we can find a way to go, well, where's God in this? Yes. And how does this fit into my overall picture of trying to be saved? Asterix? What does that mean?

00;30;53;18 - 00;30;56;07
Murray Dueck
Oh boy. Yeah, there's another Jorvik, right?

00;30;56;10 - 00;31;17;00
Chris Hawthorne
So yeah, it was really helpful because it completely reframed things. But then the other problem was as soon as I started looking in that direction and, and answering one question, it was like a thread that was being pulled and it was, yeah, was connected to so many other things. So yeah. Yeah. But you know, you do what you can one step at a time.

00;31;17;00 - 00;31;19;24
Chris Hawthorne
Yeah. You know, and I mean I don't.

00;31;19;24 - 00;31;20;22
Murray Dueck
Think I can this.

00;31;20;22 - 00;31;28;00
Chris Hawthorne
Blame anyone in that camp for thinking those ways is so much of the way that we think. It's just it's modern modern.

00;31;28;03 - 00;31;34;19
Murray Dueck
It's just culture. Right? Yes. Yeah. Oh, business has now become the, the apostle of the church.

00;31;34;19 - 00;31;36;15
Chris Hawthorne
Yeah. Or like, who doesn't want to say a.

00;31;36;15 - 00;31;37;29
Murray Dueck
Prayer and you're good.

00;31;38;02 - 00;31;40;06
Joshua Hoffert
That sounds super. Right.

00;31;40;08 - 00;31;59;29
Chris Hawthorne
And not to mention, like, it's so easy when you take that off the table is like, oh, you know, once they always say this. And the thing, of course, that provokes anxiety because that. Yeah, then I have some much bigger and scarier questions like, how am I doing spiritually, you know, or what? What do I do now that that that's not on the table?

00;32;00;04 - 00;32;04;20
Chris Hawthorne
Yes. Yeah. Right. Right. I think to feel nervous about even asking that question.

00;32;04;22 - 00;32;24;23
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that's a big question. And, and everybody out there, I mean, we should talk about it just briefly this being safe thing. I mean the the famous story is closest where who's passed away now? God bless his soul. He's on a train. We're in the big cross. We're in the, you know, the man dressed in the beard and and this, Protestant walks up to him and goes, brother, are you saved?

00;32;24;25 - 00;32;29;19
Murray Dueck
And close to where thinks about it for a second. He goes, I'm in the process of being saved.

00;32;29;24 - 00;32;31;04
Chris Hawthorne
Yes, yes, yeah.

00;32;31;05 - 00;32;42;25
Murray Dueck
And and that being saved, we as charismatics would say we were unveiled. Faces we beheld his glory and were changed from glory to glory. That's change is being saved.

00;32;42;27 - 00;32;55;29
Chris Hawthorne
Right? Yeah. Well, it's it's a dynamic process as much of life. Right. Like. Yeah. What does growth look like? Well, you know you don't. Yes. You notice you're growing. You just as Father Michael says, you notice that your clothes are getting smaller. It's so it's like.

00;32;56;00 - 00;32;58;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I

00;32;58;12 - 00;32;59;01
Murray Dueck
Like oh.

00;32;59;04 - 00;33;17;10
Chris Hawthorne
A slightly off here and you. And so you don't notice yourself growing and I think, I think are even some in some ways for some of us our obsession with am I growing is a little bit of a mix of anxiety and a desire from for some sort of accomplishment. And I mean time in the water, where do you go?

00;33;17;10 - 00;33;36;24
Chris Hawthorne
And that isn't a thing, right? We want to know, okay. Right. But and I say, I'm preaching to myself now here too, it's like, how much of my spiritual life is me spending too much time looking here and not enough on the goodness and mercy and love of God? Yes. Right. So if I don't know. So that's okay.

00;33;36;26 - 00;33;49;10
Chris Hawthorne
God is in control and he loves me infinitely more than I love myself. So. And he knows how much of a mess I am. So like, yeah, God, I'm a mess, but I'm your mess. So, oh.

00;33;49;10 - 00;33;50;08
Murray Dueck
That's a good way to say it.

00;33;50;12 - 00;33;50;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah.

00;33;51;04 - 00;33;53;08
Chris Hawthorne
That's also a Father Michael ism.

00;33;53;11 - 00;33;57;03
Murray Dueck
Yes, yes. Yeah a couple. Yeah a couple in there.

00;33;57;06 - 00;34;01;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Oh there you go. You wear it. Well then you you do.

00;34;01;08 - 00;34;03;02
Murray Dueck
It's brilliant.

00;34;03;05 - 00;34;03;22
Chris Hawthorne
Oh yeah.

00;34;03;25 - 00;34;05;10
Joshua Hoffert
Chris do you have a couple more minutes.

00;34;05;10 - 00;34;06;13
Chris Hawthorne
Yeah I told you. Yeah.

00;34;06;15 - 00;34;21;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah I, I want to the question I want to ask just as we were maybe we'll kind of use this to start to wrap up I guess because we it's been long. It's been good. I, you know, you look at the recording clock and you're like, oh, that's actually been quite a while.

00;34;21;29 - 00;34;27;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah. There's so many things that little off roads here. We going to talk about essays. We get to talk about relics.

00;34;27;12 - 00;34;27;28
Joshua Hoffert
So we can.

00;34;27;28 - 00;34;35;06
Murray Dueck
Talk about the word salvation. We talked about ancestral sin versus original sin, which we really should at some point.

00;34;35;09 - 00;34;40;26
Joshua Hoffert
As, yeah, we should have a whole episode on that. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Well, I'll have you come back as an expert on the topic.

00;34;40;29 - 00;34;41;09
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;34;41;12 - 00;34;47;04
Joshua Hoffert
We'll have Chris come back as an expert on the topic of the difference between ancestral and original. So have to do so, man.

00;34;47;09 - 00;34;50;17
Chris Hawthorne
All you have to do some homework. So I don't ramble in weird direction.

00;34;50;17 - 00;34;54;18
Joshua Hoffert
We give you three years to research and write a dissertation. And then we'll talk.

00;34;54;18 - 00;34;59;01
Chris Hawthorne
About I got two pieces coming up before too long here. So we'll see. Okay.

00;34;59;03 - 00;35;00;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. You know, there's this is.

00;35;00;27 - 00;35;04;16
Murray Dueck
I'll send you a great link, Senator. Josh, I'll I'll send it over to you. Like it? It's good.

00;35;04;22 - 00;35;05;04
Chris Hawthorne
Exciting.

00;35;05;04 - 00;35;29;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah. The the question I what I just kind of want to dive into over the next, in the next couple of minutes is, now you are on the priesthood trajectory. Yeah. Right. So it's one thing to go, okay, I'm wrestling with the, you know, the low part, and. Okay. Father Mike helped me see some of this, and I've discovered a robust appreciation for this.

00;35;29;03 - 00;35;32;19
Joshua Hoffert
And and so now we're all in. Yeah. Orthodox church. Right? Yeah.

00;35;32;19 - 00;35;33;22
Chris Hawthorne
Oh, yeah.

00;35;33;25 - 00;35;56;05
Joshua Hoffert
So I, I can't imagine that you and I'm going to go to the Orthodox Church to become a priest. No. When you guys. So, so what's what's that been like? Like what? What was one I guess one of the. Maybe we could start with this one. What was the moment where you went? I see something that the fathers highlighted to me, and that's where I want to go.

00;35;56;07 - 00;36;08;07
Joshua Hoffert
What was that moment? Because it's such a that's a like you know, in a way, it's like like, you know, you've said it a couple times where it's like, how, Lord have mercy on me. I, I think I might be called this way. Yeah.

00;36;08;10 - 00;36;29;29
Chris Hawthorne
That's a good question. You're not the first person to ask it. So I've had to think about it a bit at least. So like prior to becoming Orthodox, I mean, back when Robin and I were looking even to get married, you know, I said, you know, maybe at some point and, you know, as a young person speculates into their future, maybe I'll be a pastor.

00;36;30;02 - 00;36;33;20
Chris Hawthorne
But it was it always kind of stayed in that maybe, maybe, maybe right now.

00;36;33;21 - 00;36;41;29
Murray Dueck
I always thought that you would be, believe it or not. So I'm not surprised you became a priest. But I always thought was you would do a great work for youth, for Christ. Well, you really work well.

00;36;41;29 - 00;37;05;26
Chris Hawthorne
And I think that's I appreciate that encouragement. And I've had other people say similar things, so it lets me know that I'm not totally deluded, at least. So that's good. Ha. I think I, I think I've always just wanted to help. And I was comfortable with helping. Right. Which is why getting involved in ministry and various degrees and and just unlimited made sense because, like, there's stuff that needs to be done.

00;37;05;26 - 00;37;29;00
Chris Hawthorne
And it kind of that continued when I became orthodox. So I was like, oh, we don't have a youth group. And so I was able to figure out how can we do that? And so I just did it because I was like, the work needs to be done. And I wasn't looking for like huge, glitzy glam me like I was at that point going just having kids be together, developing friendships and being being of the same faith together.

00;37;29;02 - 00;37;50;03
Chris Hawthorne
That's good. That's a good thing. Like, we don't have to shoot for the moon. And so it really started, when Father Michael kind of tapped me on the shoulder and said, hey, have you thought about seminary? And in a very father figure, in a very Father Michael way going, you know, like it's I'm not saying, you know, you have to or like, I know anything special, but, you know, I guess he kind of saw something, right?

00;37;50;05 - 00;38;10;05
Chris Hawthorne
Yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, we thought about that for a while, and Rob and I talked about that. What that would mean. And then. Yeah. So it was kind of one baby step at a time. So we talked about, there's a diaconate, training program, which is essentially three years in seminary. It's kind of a master's level kind of thing.

00;38;10;05 - 00;38;28;22
Chris Hawthorne
In fact, at the time, in order to do that, I had to go back to school to get a bachelor's. But, at the time, it practically made sense anyways, because I was at Youth and Limited, I didn't have any, on paper level of, like, transferable skills. So I got a bachelor's in social work, got into the helping field, you know, yeah.

00;38;28;23 - 00;38;45;23
Chris Hawthorne
Figured out that whole world. And then that allowed me to get the three years of seminary, in order to become a deacon. And so in that time, we had time to think about it, about how to wrestle with what that meant. And then it was just a matter of baby steps until I was like, okay, so let's talk about the priesthood.

00;38;45;23 - 00;39;11;00
Chris Hawthorne
Is that something where okay with and it's more like along those lines, because I know myself now enough to know I'm actually more comfortable as a helper than a leader. Sure, I if Father Michael could just live forever and I could be the, I could be the deacon, I would be in the zone. I would love it because I get to be at services all the time.

00;39;11;00 - 00;39;24;02
Chris Hawthorne
I get to help, and I'm comfortable there. I'm less comfortable as a leader. But I've been told that's a that's a good quality to to not do not like it. I'm like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense because I mean, you see that. You see that in the church Fathers, you know that all.

00;39;24;02 - 00;39;26;13
Joshua Hoffert
The best number ones are better than number twos.

00;39;26;13 - 00;39;33;22
Chris Hawthorne
Right? Yeah. And the way they did it is they'd be like, oh, I'm falling to the dessert. And then the Emperor would bring, you know, his soldiers and bring them back.

00;39;33;23 - 00;39;37;11
Joshua Hoffert
Drag them back. That's right. Yeah.

00;39;37;13 - 00;39;47;07
Chris Hawthorne
So yeah. So it was a we baby stepped our way kind of into it. And now here we are. And you put on these and it feels really real.

00;39;47;09 - 00;39;48;29
Joshua Hoffert
Like, oh, I, I yeah.

00;39;49;00 - 00;40;01;12
Chris Hawthorne
It's a choice, I guess. But, you know, I'm just trying to one step at a time and just pray that, you know, that I would not be a stumbling block to anybody, really. I mean, God's oh.

00;40;01;12 - 00;40;02;03
Murray Dueck
God bless you.

00;40;02;04 - 00;40;15;17
Chris Hawthorne
God's going to do his thing. And if I can just not get in the way, that'd be great. Like, you know, like, and I that's really what I'm hoping for because I know how much of a schmuck I am. I have a wife, that acts as a very great mirror to remind me that. And I got kids.

00;40;15;17 - 00;40;16;17
Chris Hawthorne
I mean, come on. Right.

00;40;16;24 - 00;40;17;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;40;17;13 - 00;40;21;07
Chris Hawthorne
So I know I'm a schmuck. So if I can just be less of a schmuck, that'd be great.

00;40;21;13 - 00;40;23;01
Murray Dueck
You could be God's schmuck.

00;40;23;04 - 00;40;28;01
Chris Hawthorne
Right? Yeah. And if I'm good. There you go, schmuck. Let's just be God's schmuck and, you know.

00;40;28;04 - 00;40;28;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;40;28;24 - 00;40;47;25
Murray Dueck
Okay, I got a question for you that, if you don't mind me thrown out there to God, it's in the in the same vein. Okay, cool. Around the same topic. So, you know, you and me and Josh all coming from the vineyard, you know, very, very presence, experience, you know, back to that saying, you know, the Orthodox Church in the vineyard are on different streets, but we share a back alley.

00;40;47;28 - 00;41;04;16
Murray Dueck
Yeah. You know, I do think that's true. But let's let's break that down just for a minute here. So. Because because for me, at first, yeah, I mean, I came out of a Mennonite church. We'd stand up, sit down, turn to him. This, read this. It's kind of a liturgy. I'm like, how boring to do written prayers.

00;41;04;17 - 00;41;14;20
Murray Dueck
I mean, like the spontaneous Holy Spirit things. Pretty cool, right? Right. And and then all of us are kind of drawn now to liturgy, almost very thing. Same things that we escaped.

00;41;14;28 - 00;41;15;09
Chris Hawthorne
Yeah.

00;41;15;09 - 00;41;40;20
Murray Dueck
But my experiences and I like to hear everything is that when I'm at Holy Nativity, the presence is there, you know, and and I'm like, oh, I could be a charismatic here. Like, how did you bridge those worlds of vineyard to charismatic, going back to a liturgical style place where most of most of people would go, well, why are we going backwards?

00;41;40;23 - 00;41;41;18
Murray Dueck
You know.

00;41;41;21 - 00;41;42;28
Joshua Hoffert
I hungry question.

00;41;43;03 - 00;42;08;07
Chris Hawthorne
Yeah. Spirit. Right. Yeah, I've heard that. Where's the Holy Spirit. Because it doesn't look culturally at all the same. Like culturally it's. Yeah, it's alien. It's alien to most Protestantism in general. Like. Like what? From what it looks like. Right? Yeah. Slowly. It was a definite slow thing. Like, I think the thing that drew me was the theology that gave me, a quality and a substance I was missing.

00;42;08;09 - 00;42;19;05
Chris Hawthorne
But the package, the way it looked like the liturgy, the vestments, all the stuff it was. Yeah, yeah, it was weird, and I was I was not sold on the smells and bells and men and weird outfits.

00;42;19;05 - 00;42;21;09
Murray Dueck
Smells and bells of men in dresses.

00;42;21;11 - 00;42;21;20
Chris Hawthorne
Yeah.

00;42;21;21 - 00;42;28;09
Joshua Hoffert
No, you guys do the spoon. The spoon? Yeah. For communion. For communion. Oh.

00;42;28;11 - 00;42;44;21
Chris Hawthorne
You know, I'm not, I'm not a germophobe, naturally, but that. Yeah. You know. Oh, okay. And now I'm the deacon. And part of the deacons job after the Divine Liturgy is you consume the remaining gifts. So, whatever's left in that chalice, that's yours.

00;42;44;21 - 00;42;50;25
Joshua Hoffert
And that's what you guys do. The spooning into people's mouths like that one, or do they? Or is it direct drinking?

00;42;50;28 - 00;43;07;20
Chris Hawthorne
Yeah. No. Yeah, we do the spoon. And that can look like a variety of different things depending on where people are at. Some people who are a bit more like a germaphobe. Ick. Like I'm no judgment. Right. Then you'll do what we call it, a baby bird. They'll tilt their head back and open, and you just drop it in.

00;43;07;22 - 00;43;10;01
Joshua Hoffert
Is that a deacon phrase? The baby bird.

00;43;10;03 - 00;43;13;07
Chris Hawthorne
That's it. Yeah, that's an in culture phrase. Like you're like, yeah.

00;43;13;07 - 00;43;15;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah, I love it. That or someone else does it.

00;43;15;29 - 00;43;18;02
Murray Dueck
That's brilliant. I love it. Great. And so.

00;43;18;02 - 00;43;33;00
Chris Hawthorne
Yeah. So they engage to the degree they're comfortable and you know. Yeah. Yeah sure. So yeah. Yeah yeah. So we do the spoon. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah it was sorry. Go on I'm trying. Remember what your question was. The and I'll.

00;43;33;03 - 00;43;51;15
Murray Dueck
Well, just for the charismatics out there, I'll tell you a crazy story super quick. So, so and just so you know, everybody and I really regret this knowing father Mike for ten years, he'd always say to me, just come for five services. Yeah, just for you. Just to get used to it. And, you know, I because I was leading Samuel's mantle at the same time and I couldn't figure out, you know.

00;43;51;15 - 00;44;00;15
Murray Dueck
So I get that used for crap. Where am I? I only went like in ten years, maybe seven times. And. Oh, I so regret it. Maybe nine. You got that?

00;44;00;17 - 00;44;02;05
Chris Hawthorne
I didn't then you're good.

00;44;02;08 - 00;44;13;17
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah. Well, one day we're sitting there, so, you know, bring in Jake because Jane are going to get married. And I said, you better get used to the fact that I'm into this. Right. So we're sitting on the on the pews. Yeah. And you know, you got all the icons up front, you know, all the pictures everybody.

00;44;13;17 - 00;44;17;15
Murray Dueck
And on each end is an angel Gabriel and one side and Michael and the other. They're wearing red.

00;44;17;22 - 00;44;18;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Okay.

00;44;18;18 - 00;44;24;25
Murray Dueck
And so most of the service people are standing. So you can't really see those icons really good. Because there's all these bodies in the way.

00;44;25;01 - 00;44;25;19
Chris Hawthorne
Yeah.

00;44;25;22 - 00;44;32;09
Joshua Hoffert
And there's no see like that's something that people don't understand. There's no seats. Yeah. There's a there's a bench outside but there's no seats in an Orthodox church.

00;44;32;09 - 00;44;49;10
Murray Dueck
Yeah. So us newbies get to sit around the bench on the outside. So then they know you're a newbie. So. So I'm sitting on the bench and I'm sitting there. Everybody's standing, and somebody is, like, wearing bright red clothes, standing in the crowd. I'm thinking, who the heck is dressed like that? What are you, a gangster like, who comes to church wearing your pajamas?

00;44;49;12 - 00;45;05;26
Murray Dueck
That. That's what I'm thinking, right? Like nobody who dresses like that. So who is that? So I'm trying to see because they're right in the middle of the crowd, right? And I'm like. And then when everybody sits down because there's a moment, they sit down for that short little preacher. There's nobody in right there. It's an icon on the wall of the angel.

00;45;06;01 - 00;45;26;03
Murray Dueck
I'm like, okay, that was not on the wall that was standing in the crowd. And then when they bring the communion elements up to set him up, they set him up on exactly the spot the guy was standing. And I'm like, okay, that's really weird. Well, I mean, I'm not, but man, I saw that as real as anything I've ever seen as a charismatic.

00;45;26;03 - 00;45;29;24
Murray Dueck
Right? Father Mike yeah, stuff like that happens. That was that. He was like, yeah.

00;45;29;26 - 00;45;54;10
Chris Hawthorne
And that's the piece. That's the piece. It's like while there's a different emphasis of sorts, like you're not going to hear, Orthodox priest or generally writers or even parishioners talk about that as an emphasis. But yeah, so many stories of saints that are just so weird that we're going to weird the charismatics any day of the week, like, trust me.

00;45;54;14 - 00;45;54;26
Chris Hawthorne
True.

00;45;55;00 - 00;45;59;10
Murray Dueck
Yeah. I like it's say, it's more charismatic than the charismatic. It's very interesting.

00;45;59;13 - 00;46;05;02
Chris Hawthorne
But I mean, I mean, I say it's kind of unfair. We got 2000 years of history, the charismatic good since the 70s.

00;46;05;02 - 00;46;07;05
Murray Dueck
So that's that's true, right?

00;46;07;07 - 00;46;08;28
Chris Hawthorne
Fair competition. Right, guys?

00;46;09;01 - 00;46;09;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;46;09;09 - 00;46;11;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah. But yeah. So so yeah.

00;46;11;17 - 00;46;17;29
Chris Hawthorne
People see God, but people see angels. People see the saints. People see. Yeah.

00;46;17;29 - 00;46;19;24
Murray Dueck
That's a talk. Do we? They'll do it.

00;46;19;26 - 00;46;44;29
Chris Hawthorne
Us. Right. So there's all kinds of things. But I mean, you you can't spend any time in any branch of Christianity without admitting you believe in weird stuff. You believe in a virgin birth, you believe in a God man and talking snakes and talking donkeys and bones that when you throw up dead person on, they come back to life like, come on, you're part of a weird faith.

00;46;44;29 - 00;46;45;21
Chris Hawthorne
Just own it.

00;46;45;21 - 00;46;47;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, right.

00;46;47;17 - 00;47;02;16
Murray Dueck
Oh that's right. You know, father Mike told me this story, and it just because I was, I was working on the same thing, which I'm, you know, I'm still working on. Oh, yeah. And I'm like. And bones and stuff and and relics. So we're talking about these things. And he goes, yeah, we believe in healing just like you guys.

00;47;02;16 - 00;47;23;13
Murray Dueck
Okay, I'll be okay. And he goes, and he says, In San Francisco, there's a church to Saint John, right? Saint John changed his eyes. Bones are there. And once a year they bring them out. They bring the bones out. Right. And the priest will take a little cotton ball on a pair of tweezers, dip it in some oil, rub it on the bone, and then they'll anoint the person on the head with that.

00;47;23;13 - 00;47;50;20
Murray Dueck
Right. And then people get healed. I'm like, okay, that's weird. And he goes, and now here's the surprising part. When they get healed there, they have this thing. They do whatever part of their body gets healed, they make a little silver pendant and they bring it back and they hang it in the reliquary of the saint. Yeah. So when they open it up one day a year or whatever it is, or a week, there's a thousand and thousands of these little silver pendants of all the people that have been healed hanging there.

00;47;50;26 - 00;47;57;23
Chris Hawthorne
And you can barely thousands of on for all of them. There's just covered. Covered.

00;47;57;26 - 00;48;01;28
Murray Dueck
My brain just blew right out of my socks. I'm like, what? Like.

00;48;02;00 - 00;48;03;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, what?

00;48;03;12 - 00;48;23;24
Murray Dueck
Yeah. But you know, once the Spirit of God is on top, that it stays there. Well and everybody that's why the glory as evangelicals you got to get this bodily resurrection. Everybody. Why? Because the holy human body is sacred. And God wants to fill it with His spirit and he will for eternity. And that's why we get raised up, raised bodily.

00;48;24;01 - 00;48;24;20
Chris Hawthorne
Yeah, it's.

00;48;24;20 - 00;48;34;06
Murray Dueck
In our own. It's our our own theology and that it's posted. That's why this stuff happens. It proves a sacredness of physicality of the human.

00;48;34;08 - 00;48;45;05
Chris Hawthorne
Yes. Yeah. And we're kind of like by default as modern people, kind of gnostic. We're like, yeah, virtuality is kind of in our hearts, in our heads. But when we get to the body stuff or like.

00;48;45;07 - 00;48;47;08
Murray Dueck
It's a little weird, but I mean.

00;48;47;11 - 00;49;07;27
Chris Hawthorne
But if, if, if the human body cannot participate in divinity, we have a theological problem. Because what was. Yes. What was Jesus? He was fully man and fully God and and and not a way that you can separate is not like a vessel containing it. And it didn't, you know, like it's like it's. Anyways, we won't get at that else.

00;49;08;00 - 00;49;14;16
Murray Dueck
Oh well, it's a really good it's a because there are big theological questions here when you, when you think about it, if God.

00;49;14;17 - 00;49;15;17
Joshua Hoffert
That's what undergirds it.

00;49;15;17 - 00;49;29;25
Murray Dueck
Yeah. It makes our human bodies sacred. Suddenly they're not anymore. But then why are we being raised physically for eternity? No, that's because they're still sacred. Yeah. So it's like, oh, are your brains going to work on that? So everybody just wanted to mess you up a little bit.

00;49;29;25 - 00;49;35;25
Chris Hawthorne
But if you want another weird, relic story, just like, just to push the extra buttons, so.

00;49;35;26 - 00;49;37;04
Murray Dueck
Oh, yeah. Why not on.

00;49;37;04 - 00;50;05;28
Chris Hawthorne
Mount Athos, which is a little peninsula in Greece that has, monasteries, a lot of monasteries on it. It has for the last thousand years. So anyways, there's lots of relics there. One of them is the hand of Saint Mary Magdalene. My. Yes. So pretty old, right? But, incorrupt, which means it has not, disintegrated to the rate that a normal human body should by now.

00;50;05;28 - 00;50;26;01
Chris Hawthorne
It should be nothing. Yeah, yeah, but it's not. You can still see it. It's they've got it in special container. It's brought out so people can venerate it. Not worship, but venerate it. Yeah. Here's the crazy part. Other than the fact that it exists at all, it's still. It's still body warm. Like, it's still like top of normal.

00;50;26;04 - 00;50;33;01
Chris Hawthorne
And so. Oh, that's not weird. I don't know what. That's weird. Yeah.

00;50;33;03 - 00;50;34;12
Murray Dueck
So. Yeah. Yeah, that's for.

00;50;34;14 - 00;50;36;07
Chris Hawthorne
Lots of fun stories.

00;50;36;09 - 00;50;36;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

00;50;36;20 - 00;50;53;17
Murray Dueck
Yeah. So for you evangelicals, you venerate stuff too. Just so think about again, jumping on the communion elements or ripping pages out of your Bible. You would go, I would never do that. Why? Because you venerate the Bible. You treat it as holy. It's, you know, worshiping it. You're treating it as holy. So it's it's so, you know, everybody.

00;50;53;17 - 00;50;53;28
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;50;53;28 - 00;51;06;16
Chris Hawthorne
It's an honor and respect because the other half, we will only say we only worship God. That's. Yes, biblical. That's really basic. That's 101. Oh, we lost Josh. Hopefully he's.

00;51;06;16 - 00;51;07;13
Murray Dueck
Come. Josh is gone.

00;51;07;19 - 00;51;09;00
Chris Hawthorne
Okay. We'll just say he's taking a break.

00;51;09;00 - 00;51;12;00
Murray Dueck
Now. We can actually talk. Really?

00;51;12;02 - 00;51;32;10
Chris Hawthorne
Yeah. But what we do, we do on are things because. Because, Yeah. If you if you, if you love God, you're going to honor all the people who he's friends with. You're going to be thankful for all the things he's given us, like thank God, you know, the scriptures have been passed down by his disciples to us.

00;51;32;14 - 00;51;45;08
Chris Hawthorne
Thank God for it. Right? What a blessing. And so we honor it. We respect it. And and that idea trickles out. I mean, that's why we should be, you know, we should venerate creation, venerate. We honor it because, God.

00;51;45;16 - 00;51;46;20
Murray Dueck
We honor it. Yeah.

00;51;46;21 - 00;51;53;04
Chris Hawthorne
Honor because God made it. It's, you know, it's beautiful. It's good. It's beneficial. All the things that's beautiful.

00;51;53;04 - 00;52;15;04
Joshua Hoffert
And in that sense, we don't we don't in the in the Protestant world, we don't like, like, I, a couple of years ago, I remember with the church that we were attending back in, P.E.I., someone came in the night and threw a rock through the window. Yeah, right. And because they then that person was struggling with mental health issues and stuff like that.

00;52;15;04 - 00;52;34;18
Joshua Hoffert
Right. But they were taking it out against God, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But people are it's like oh like, you know, it's like you're in a way you're going ISO you're going to get struck down by lightning. Right? Because I know because it's a, it's something that's, it's you're desecrating a holy thing in people's minds. Right. But we have the system tuition.

00;52;34;18 - 00;52;35;03
Chris Hawthorne
Right. There's that.

00;52;35;04 - 00;52;36;16
Joshua Hoffert
We have the intuition. Yeah.

00;52;36;16 - 00;52;41;22
Chris Hawthorne
Yeah. You know don't step on it. Right. Why? Because there's a person there.

00;52;41;24 - 00;52;45;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. I mean there's a it would desecrated. Yeah, exactly.

00;52;45;00 - 00;53;07;22
Chris Hawthorne
There's implications for cremation. Right. The Orthodox don't. Yeah. Nate. Oh. Why. Because. Yeah. Because that is it's not you're not a soul. And you have a body. You are the the two combine, right? You are. You are, man. You are, spirit and flesh. You know, there. Yeah. Anyway, so.

00;53;07;24 - 00;53;08;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, it's.

00;53;08;29 - 00;53;12;08
Murray Dueck
It's brilliant to talk about this. Yeah. It's good. I think everybody really think.

00;53;12;12 - 00;53;33;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Well we have like a billion other things we could talk about. So we'll have to have Chris back on. Yeah. Chris, back on the podcast. It's been wonderful. Yeah. I mean, this conversation I just seeing seeing the journey and I think it will, we will, call it, to a close at this point. We've we've taken 2.5 hours, I think, of Chris's talk that'll.

00;53;33;14 - 00;53;38;19
Murray Dueck
Yeah. That's so great. Thank you, Chris, for all your time. It's good to see you again, my friend. Good to see you guys.

00;53;38;22 - 00;53;39;10
Chris Hawthorne
Next time.

00;53;39;13 - 00;53;40;09
Joshua Hoffert
To see you.

00;53;40;09 - 00;53;41;05
Chris Hawthorne
At some point.

00;53;41;07 - 00;54;08;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. We'll do we'll do something like that. That's that. Mary, I was just chatting about doing some of the stuff like that. So, So yeah. So everybody, thanks for joining for the journey. And we hope that, in listening to Chris talk about his story and sharing notes and, and thinking about the whole journey, that you guys heard something of your own story in there that you can find, solidarity and going, I've had some of the same questions, too.

00;54;08;23 - 00;54;19;03
Joshua Hoffert
And if you'd like to reach out to if you're in the Lower Mainland, you'd like to reach out to, Chris and the church of the Holy Nativity. You can find them. They have a Facebook profile. They have a website.

00;54;19;03 - 00;54;19;20
Murray Dueck
Wonderful.

00;54;19;20 - 00;54;37;07
Joshua Hoffert
Just Google church of the Holy Nativity and you'll find you'll find that father Mike has a podcast where he talks about some of the the challenges of the spiritual journey from an orthodox perspective called, praying in the rain. Yeah. And, you know, Lord willing, maybe you'll take over that, too. So, one.

00;54;37;07 - 00;54;38;11
Chris Hawthorne
Step at a time. One step.

00;54;38;18 - 00;54;40;14
Joshua Hoffert
One step at a time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;54;40;14 - 00;54;43;25
Murray Dueck
But you can go praying on a cloudy day. You could just.

00;54;43;27 - 00;54;44;06
Joshua Hoffert
You know.

00;54;44;07 - 00;54;45;29
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Soften it a little bit.

00;54;46;01 - 00;54;54;04
Joshua Hoffert
There you go. Yeah. So, so thanks everybody for tuning in. And thanks, Marie, for always being a good friend. Yeah. Thank you.

00;54;54;11 - 00;54;55;19
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah. Best thing.

00;54;55;22 - 00;55;07;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's the best thing. Yeah. And so Chris until next time. And everybody else until next time. Thank you for tuning in. Bye, everybody. Oh.