Developing a Sound Mind: an interview with Michael Sulllivant Part 1

Today on the Voices from the Desert, Josh and Murr interview Michael Sullivant and dive into a discussion on discipleship, the sound mind, and spiritual formation. Michael Sullivant is the founder of Radius Ministries along with his wife Terri Sullivant. Michael also serves as the Director of Relational Networks for the Life Model Works. Tune in and this conversation will stimulate your brain!

For more about Voices from the Desert, visit out Patreon page: patreon.com/VoicesfromtheDesert

For more about Michael Sullivant, visit: radiusministries.org

Transcript

00;00;17;25 - 00;00;18;27
Michael Sullivant
And then he's the.

00;00;18;27 - 00;00;40;18
Michael Sullivant
Spirit of saffron, as was the spirit of a sound mind. Or the spirit of this somewhere. Or some translation and self-discipline. It's a hard word to translate into English. This one morning I was writing a little blog about it or referring to it, and I just felt like I was supposed to write to write a gift, send him an email.

00;00;40;22 - 00;00;57;03
Michael Sullivant
So I did. I sent in to write an email. He wrote back in three minutes he says yes, this word is everything to do with the health of the mind. And it is, not a word, not the kind of word that we have an English equivalent for.

00;00;57;06 - 00;01;09;21
Joshua Hoffert
This word is different.

00;01;09;24 - 00;01;17;27
Joshua Hoffert
Welcome, everybody, to another episode of voices from the desert. Desert.

00;01;17;29 - 00;01;23;28
Murray Dueck
Ow ow ow ow ow ow ow.

00;01;24;01 - 00;01;26;05
Joshua Hoffert
Did you get the sheepdogs attention?

00;01;26;07 - 00;01;32;12
Murray Dueck
Yes. Yeah. He's like. He's like. Right? He's like. Like, what's going on?

00;01;32;14 - 00;01;33;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

00;01;33;16 - 00;01;34;03
Murray Dueck
I guess like his.

00;01;34;03 - 00;01;36;12
Joshua Hoffert
Stable of sheep dogs have been.

00;01;36;15 - 00;01;38;02
Murray Dueck
What are you doing down there?

00;01;38;04 - 00;01;51;19
Joshua Hoffert
Part and parcel of the show. That's right. Murray, actually, yeah, we've been we've been we've been through the ups and downs and voices of the desert. Because you had Aiden, and then Aiden had an unfortunate,

00;01;51;22 - 00;01;53;07
Murray Dueck
Yes. And untimely.

00;01;53;07 - 00;01;59;26
Joshua Hoffert
End. And then you were able to get two dogs that are related to Aiden. Yeah. What are their names again?

00;01;59;28 - 00;02;01;27
Murray Dueck
Callum and Evelyn.

00;02;01;29 - 00;02;03;03
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Evelyn and Callum.

00;02;03;03 - 00;02;03;16
Murray Dueck
Inside.

00;02;03;16 - 00;02;05;14
Joshua Hoffert
There is something close to the Aiden.

00;02;05;14 - 00;02;08;16
Murray Dueck
So siblings, I would say different litter, but same parents.

00;02;08;19 - 00;02;09;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. So so.

00;02;09;28 - 00;02;15;26
Murray Dueck
Wonderful. Very hairy. Both very wonderful little friends. They are brilliant, you know, recommend this breed for anybody.

00;02;15;28 - 00;02;20;14
Joshua Hoffert
I have three kids and each one was a different litter, but same parents and they're called.

00;02;20;14 - 00;02;23;21
Murray Dueck
So there you go. I must work that dogs too.

00;02;23;24 - 00;02;34;07
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Yeah yeah yeah yeah. That's right. So they've been they've been kind of a staple of the show and also and your other sheepdog, which is a sheep that thinks it's a dog.

00;02;34;09 - 00;02;44;02
Murray Dueck
So I have a sheep that believes it's a dog, a bottle raised lamb who lived in the house for a while. And now Richard's live, you know, occasionally.

00;02;44;02 - 00;02;45;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;02;45;19 - 00;02;51;24
Murray Dueck
And luckily we have locks on our doors that sheep had a hand. It would pick those logs, let me tell you.

00;02;51;27 - 00;03;09;08
Joshua Hoffert
You. But that's the one time I went and visited Murray's, farm when I was out there in September. The the sheepdog was totally. It follows you around like it does not hang out with the sheeps. It follows you around like it's a dog and expects you to pet it and rubs up against your leg and everything.

00;03;09;08 - 00;03;31;21
Joshua Hoffert
It's like it learned a whole. It's an interesting one where it's, hung out with a totally different set of, it learned instincts from the dogs in the house and for Murray, and, now it's learned a whole new way of being because of who had spent time with. And I think that's such an interesting parallel to part of today's today's topic.

00;03;31;21 - 00;03;39;26
Murray Dueck
Everybody, if you want to see these animals go to at Eden Farm Sanctuary and you can see all the stuff that we do with animals.

00;03;39;29 - 00;03;58;05
Joshua Hoffert
They've got an Instagram where you can see pictures and videos of the animals, and you can look at the website and it's a farm, it's an animal recovery site, actually, where you take animals that have been in abusive situations and, help rebuild, rehabilitate them and give them a home or at least.

00;03;58;05 - 00;03;59;11
Murray Dueck
A peaceful.

00;03;59;13 - 00;04;01;28
Joshua Hoffert
Last couple years of their life, you know?

00;04;02;01 - 00;04;03;10
Murray Dueck
Yeah, exactly.

00;04;03;12 - 00;04;25;05
Joshua Hoffert
As peaceful as a farm can be. So, Yeah. Yeah. So, anyway, it's a beautiful place, but, yeah, you should check it out. So the other, the other bit of news before we, we dive in is that we have officially started a Patreon. So Murray and I don't even know really what a Patreon does all that much, but we heard from we're going to figure it out that we're supposed to figure it out, and that's what you're supposed to do.

00;04;25;05 - 00;04;43;28
Joshua Hoffert
So, with the Patreon, you can go to Patreon.com slash voices from the desert. And right now there's just you can either join as a member for free and interact with some of the stuff. Or you can there's a paid, there's a paid tier, which is just eight bucks a month, and we're doing.

00;04;43;28 - 00;04;44;17
Murray Dueck
Patreon.

00;04;44;17 - 00;04;46;24
Joshua Hoffert
Essentially, what you get when you pay for it.

00;04;46;24 - 00;04;47;28
Murray Dueck
Is you do.

00;04;48;01 - 00;05;09;08
Joshua Hoffert
Some free pre-roll of the of our interviews, where you hear us talking about the topic upcoming and planning through that, and then some exclusive, some exclusive content like that, and then we'll, we'll be doing, webinars with just with Patreon subscribers. So you can look at Patreon.com slash voices from the desert. The link will be in the podcast description.

00;05;09;10 - 00;05;11;29
Joshua Hoffert
And that way you can support Marie and I in the show and all the while.

00;05;12;01 - 00;05;12;14
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;05;12;16 - 00;05;12;27
Joshua Hoffert
We have on.

00;05;12;28 - 00;05;15;17
Murray Dueck
Thank you and.

00;05;15;20 - 00;05;40;28
Joshua Hoffert
So, without further ado, we have a repeat customer actually today and, who's become, a friend of the show, a friend of mine and, a friend of Murray's, and just a wonderful, wonderful man with, more experience than I have for sure. And, I would say more than Murray and I combined, but I don't know if that's.

00;05;40;29 - 00;05;43;03
Murray Dueck
I was going to say that, actually. I'll take that as well.

00;05;43;03 - 00;06;04;28
Joshua Hoffert
But, Murray, you've been around for a while, too, so, you know, I at least I'll say, between the three of us, it's got to be more than 100 years. So we'll go there. So, and. Yeah. And, and Michael carries the bulk of that weight. So, it's like when they say the to the, to these two NBA players, they scored 70 points together and one guy scored 68 and one guy scored two.

00;06;05;00 - 00;06;06;17
Joshua Hoffert
You know.

00;06;06;19 - 00;06;21;21
Murray Dueck
Yeah. That. Yeah. That's like that old stat about which brother which set of brothers in the NHL has the most points ever. And like the stats needs, I think there are seven of them. Yeah. And the record goes to Wayne Gretzky and his brother and Wayne Gretzky. His brother had like two points.

00;06;21;23 - 00;06;29;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. There you go. That's right. That's exactly what it's like. That's what we're saying. So we have we have our wonderful friend Michael Sullivan.

00;06;29;09 - 00;06;32;20
Murray Dueck
Yeah. So he's like Wayne Gretzky is what we're saying. Yeah. He's like Wayne Gretzky.

00;06;32;20 - 00;06;35;11
Joshua Hoffert
We're like Wayne Gretzky, his brothers. Yeah. That's right.

00;06;35;13 - 00;06;36;21
Murray Dueck
That was the point of that.

00;06;36;23 - 00;06;44;01
Joshua Hoffert
That's like, wait, when you're talking to people that are either Canadian or live in Canada, you got to put up with hockey analogies. So yeah, that's

00;06;44;03 - 00;06;48;03
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that's how you know, or Canadians made us that in donuts.

00;06;48;03 - 00;07;05;11
Joshua Hoffert
Probably. Yeah. Or and cheese curds on fries. So we've got Michael on the show. Michael's with life model works. He's been he's been in pastoral ministry leadership ministry, inner healing ministry, you know.

00;07;05;13 - 00;07;06;14
Murray Dueck
Prophetic ministry, you.

00;07;06;14 - 00;07;24;06
Joshua Hoffert
Know, prophetic ministry, spiritual direction, information. In that sense for, you know, since what the mid to late 80s I think is, or was it the early 80s or was it your first. Well, I can't remember exactly what the date was, but I know it's been a while. You've been further back. You say it even further back. Late 70s.

00;07;24;08 - 00;07;25;09
Murray Dueck
Something.

00;07;25;12 - 00;07;52;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. So, here's that. Just a wealth of experience. And he's seen the, the the ebb and the flow and, and been directly involved with some major, major impactful ministries, major impactful movements, and currently working with Jim while they're in the group at Life Model. And you're the director of the relational networks. Is that what it is?

00;07;52;21 - 00;08;21;13
Michael Sullivant
Yes. And I'm actually changing my status or my okay. And coming up at the end of June. Okay. I'm, I mean, I was a life model ambassador, and so is, is I'm actually leaving the staff. Yeah, sure. I'm going to be like, a free agent, on behalf of the organization. Right. And then begin to build, a ministry that my wife and I started many years ago that we've never been able to really pay much attention to.

00;08;21;16 - 00;08;23;24
Michael Sullivant
So. So anyway, we're excited,

00;08;23;27 - 00;08;24;18
Murray Dueck
Wonderful.

00;08;24;20 - 00;08;39;26
Michael Sullivant
Behind that, that, new direction. And I'm going to be doing a lot more, coaching, I would say. I'm not sure I like that word, but like, guide spiritual, spiritual guide to people and especially to leaders around the country.

00;08;39;29 - 00;08;40;12
Murray Dueck
Oh, isn't that.

00;08;40;12 - 00;08;41;18
Michael Sullivant
Wonderful for other places, too?

00;08;41;19 - 00;09;06;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's awesome. I get the the hesitancy to, you know, coaching tells people what to do. A guide helps to go, well, maybe this direction. And, you know, there's a big difference between those two approaches. And, and here's what to do and how to think. That's not that's not, that really. You know, that it doesn't that doesn't create robust disciples of Jesus and maybe disciples of a system.

00;09;06;22 - 00;09;09;12
Joshua Hoffert
But we're looking for disciples that look like Jesus.

00;09;09;15 - 00;09;26;00
Murray Dueck
Yeah. I gotta throw in a funny story right there just because it fits. John Sanford, this pastor. What I always kind of critique him and he love the critique and the what the pastor said. Who is John Sanford's like an old Indian sage who walks off into the wilderness and comes back bug eyed and goes, not that way, boy.

00;09;26;00 - 00;09;31;20
Murray Dueck
He's not that way. So.

00;09;31;22 - 00;09;36;10
Joshua Hoffert
We're hoping Michael can tell us today a couple of not that way moments and a couple of that way.

00;09;36;10 - 00;09;42;18
Murray Dueck
Moments. Yeah, a little bit of both. You've got to experience. Let's hear it. So we don't we don't do that.

00;09;42;21 - 00;10;07;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah that's right, that's right. So I, I, I met Michael a few years ago I think through a, some mutual podcast, friends, you sent me a message after seeing a remnant radio episode, and we connected, and then we joined one of your groups, and we've just stayed connected ever since, so. Oh, wow. And, you know, we drove pretty close to you when we were driving across the country, so we were eight hours away.

00;10;07;03 - 00;10;27;04
Joshua Hoffert
So it's not it's too far to make a bit of a jaunt down there. But you know, we could have waved on the way through, I guess. So, yeah. So, Michael, tell us this just for people that are new to the show, tell us a little bit about your family because you have kids, you have a wonderful wife.

00;10;27;06 - 00;10;32;23
Joshua Hoffert
All this stuff that you love to talk about as well. So tell us a little bit about just your own life.

00;10;32;25 - 00;10;43;01
Michael Sullivant
Yeah. Thank you. It's great to be with you guys again. So, I, I was raised in Detroit, actually, so the hockey fits pretty well there.

00;10;43;03 - 00;10;50;16
Joshua Hoffert
So we stopped in Detroit and had Detroit style pizza from one of the authentic old places there. It was amazing. So yeah, it's.

00;10;50;16 - 00;10;51;12
Michael Sullivant
Really good stuff.

00;10;51;12 - 00;10;51;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, it.

00;10;51;29 - 00;10;52;22
Murray Dueck
Is.

00;10;52;25 - 00;11;22;10
Michael Sullivant
So yeah. So that's where I was raised between the ages of eight and 18. I graduated from high school in northeast Detroit and went away to college. And, right before I left for college is when I came to Christ. So that was 1973. And, I had a remarkable conversion experience that was, marked by, some miraculous things, which, you know, wired me for.

00;11;22;12 - 00;11;22;19
Murray Dueck
The.

00;11;22;21 - 00;11;24;01
Michael Sullivant
Supernatural.

00;11;24;02 - 00;11;24;12
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;11;24;17 - 00;11;49;22
Michael Sullivant
For lack of a better word, the supernatural side of our faith because it was just, normal to me. Because of the visions I experienced when I came to Christ. And then. And then the gifts of the spirit started to manifest in my life as well, very suddenly. And so then when I went away to college at Miami of Ohio, which was a big hockey school, by the way.

00;11;49;27 - 00;11;55;06
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, okay. Yeah. Did you track with the hockey guys, I guess? There you go.

00;11;55;09 - 00;11;57;27
Michael Sullivant
Yeah, it wasn't back in my day, but it is now.

00;11;57;28 - 00;11;58;14
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, okay.

00;11;58;14 - 00;12;18;17
Michael Sullivant
Right. Hockey school. But anyway, I started to just share my story with my dorm mates, and 13 of them came to faith. That first year. And it was the beginning of an awakening on our campus. And in the next four years, when I was there, there were about 500 more students that became, oh.

00;12;18;17 - 00;12;20;04
Murray Dueck
My goodness, this.

00;12;20;06 - 00;12;46;06
Michael Sullivant
Through that crew of people. And we were just doing the basics, you know, we were praying, we were reading the Bible together. It was that morning together. And and the, the Spirit of God was, falling upon people and upon our gatherings, we were baptizing each other in the pools on campus. And of course, that's amazing.

00;12;46;06 - 00;13;14;22
Michael Sullivant
And we were sharing our faith, you know, very naturally with other students. And so actually, that's how I got involved in Christian leadership was, you know, I, I was, God was using me as a catalyst for that student awakening. And I started preaching, weekly when I was 19 years old. So I don't I don't recommend that, that's what happened.

00;13;14;22 - 00;13;18;20
Joshua Hoffert
In a theological expert at 19 years of age. Look at that. Oh my.

00;13;18;20 - 00;13;20;06
Michael Sullivant
Gosh. Just like.

00;13;20;08 - 00;13;21;02
Joshua Hoffert
I was.

00;13;21;04 - 00;13;30;18
Michael Sullivant
Those poor listeners, but but I was I was on fire. And it was the fire that made the difference, you know? Yeah. And so we it.

00;13;30;18 - 00;13;34;25
Joshua Hoffert
Fills the gap with bad preaching. Fire really fills the gap, doesn't it? Yeah.

00;13;34;28 - 00;13;46;22
Michael Sullivant
I, so so we were, we were really, we experienced something very special, and, and I'm still in touch with many of those really?

00;13;46;24 - 00;13;48;03
Murray Dueck
Wow.

00;13;48;06 - 00;14;07;29
Michael Sullivant
I've heard it in those years and stayed, you know, kind of reconnected because of Facebook and other platforms, you know, nowadays. And it's just finding people again. So it's really fun in that sense. So I married my wife in 1977. Terry. She married me, I married.

00;14;07;29 - 00;14;09;14
Murray Dueck
Her, and,

00;14;09;16 - 00;14;10;17
Michael Sullivant
We,

00;14;10;20 - 00;14;13;06
Joshua Hoffert
We was it was mutual. That's good to know.

00;14;13;09 - 00;14;17;11
Michael Sullivant
It was mutual. And it still is. It's better than ever, by the way, guys, it gets better and better.

00;14;17;11 - 00;14;18;19
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Oh, that's good to hear.

00;14;18;26 - 00;14;44;22
Michael Sullivant
I like getting older. Don't let anybody you know tell you otherwise. Getting older is really a blast. So we have five adult kids that are all married and they're all following Jesus. All of our kids and our in-law kids are following Jesus and and then, 15 grandchildren. Wow. Who? The Holy Spirit started to pick each one of them off, as they're growing up.

00;14;44;22 - 00;14;47;08
Joshua Hoffert
So that's what we're excited about.

00;14;47;10 - 00;14;53;15
Michael Sullivant
You know, our family life, we're a clan, we're tight knit, and, and we're very blessed.

00;14;53;17 - 00;14;57;07
Joshua Hoffert
So that's a they all live close to you. Are they all close?

00;14;57;12 - 00;15;12;17
Michael Sullivant
Two of two of my five are in town. So seven of our grandchildren are here. Great. And then I have two sons in the Nashville area and another son in northwest Arkansas, which isn't too far north.

00;15;12;18 - 00;15;34;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's all. Not that's not. Yeah, that's that's within earshot for sure. It's wonderful. Yeah. Well, in the in the age that we live in, that almost has become exceedingly rare. So I've got it. My. Yeah. No, I've got family all over the map in California and the US. So yeah. Yeah. So that's wonderful. What a blessing.

00;15;34;11 - 00;15;49;17
Michael Sullivant
Yeah, yeah. So, so Terry is my wife, and Terry is a pastor, ordained minister and a life coach. That she that she reaches out to, people that haven't come to faith yet as a life coach. And she's led a number of them to.

00;15;49;17 - 00;15;50;21
Murray Dueck
Oh, okay. Wonderful.

00;15;50;24 - 00;16;20;05
Michael Sullivant
Through just, you know, they're they're in a teachable moment when they're looking for coaching. So, she's had a tremendous impact on those people. So, Yeah. So I've been, a vocational minister my whole adult life, except for, one three year period when I went in to the business world to take a break, which was a really great, wonderful break and then gravitated back into active ministry in 2011.

00;16;20;08 - 00;16;28;22
Michael Sullivant
Okay. So, yeah, I've been a pastor teacher. I've been an educator, an author. I'm kind of a wannabe poet.

00;16;28;25 - 00;16;30;10
Murray Dueck
Oh, interesting.

00;16;30;16 - 00;16;57;05
Michael Sullivant
And I'm also becoming, an ambassador for life model. Works. Actually, more than life model works. It's just life model. A life model ambassador. Right. And, it's kind of a new animal on the block. And, several of us are going to have that role where we just rove around as free agents and spread the goodness of the neuro theology that we've learned.

00;16;57;11 - 00;16;58;16
Joshua Hoffert
And write with.

00;16;58;22 - 00;17;07;29
Michael Sullivant
You know, sound biblical, theology and practice. And so, we're excited about that shift that's underway.

00;17;08;02 - 00;17;40;02
Joshua Hoffert
Wow. That's wonderful. You, you said something last time you were on, and maybe we could use this as a launching point for talking about the brain, and, that the the phrase in second Timothy one for, that that the Holy Spirit would give you a sound mind. Right. Love power and of sound mind and, and that word for sound mind, you said, literally translates as mental health.

00;17;40;05 - 00;18;05;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And which obviously is a big topic for today. And, the, the, you know, the stigma or the stigma stigma that's a different thing than stigma. The, the stigma is, has lessened. I like I say, gentlemen, I work with who has dealt with schizophrenia, and I was surprised by just how open he was in talking about it.

00;18;05;20 - 00;18;31;19
Joshua Hoffert
And because you know, to 20 years ago, someone says they have schizophrenia, everybody runs away screaming. And today it's like, oh, actually, we can actually have good conversations about mental health. But one of the things that that is frequently not addressed in terms of the secular world when it comes to mental health, is just how much Christianity can add to the table when it comes to developing that.

00;18;31;19 - 00;19;02;23
Joshua Hoffert
Actually, in the in Scripture, the part of the role of the Holy Spirit is to develop mental health within the person. And I think that's one thing that you guys have so, so well articulated. And so what, when it when it comes to the power, love and mental health and the Holy Spirit and, and then the four layers of the brain and and how the brain it's you've said it's more than just conscious thought because sometimes we talk about the brain as as well as just conscious thought.

00;19;02;23 - 00;19;23;22
Joshua Hoffert
Right. But now, you know, we've talked we've talked kind of a little bit over the years on the podcast and other places about pre-verbal trauma and pre, pre cortical trauma, this kind of stuff. My wife is involved with heart sink. Actually we're having Father Andrew Bishop Andrew on in at the end of April. To talk more about this stuff too.

00;19;23;22 - 00;19;34;10
Joshua Hoffert
So we're definitely diving in. But what just just kind of give us that maybe just talk, okay. When it comes to those kind of topics.

00;19;34;13 - 00;19;57;12
Michael Sullivant
Yeah. You know, I, I did a word study many years ago on the the third word there in the lineup. It's it's only it's one word in Greek. It's Safronov. Samos is the root word. And it's a very rare biblical word. It's only used, you know, two times, in the New Testament. In either form, in terms of the root word.

00;19;57;12 - 00;20;19;16
Michael Sullivant
And so it's really rare. And yet Paul makes it one of the big three there in second Timothy one seven, where he's talking about the Holy Spirit, because he says in verse six that Timothy, through the laying on of my hands, you know, you you were blessed and, and and then he says, For God has not given us a spirit of fear.

00;20;19;18 - 00;20;20;20
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;20;20;23 - 00;20;40;25
Michael Sullivant
So it's he's talking about the spirit, and he and he defines the spirit as a spirit of power, which, you know, makes sense to us that the spirit is a spirit of power. You read the Gospels and you see the power dimension of the spirits person and work. I think of those two things. He's a he's a powerful person.

00;20;41;02 - 00;21;04;06
Michael Sullivant
He's God, and his work is powerful. He has powerful dimensions to his work. And then he's a spirit of love, which, yeah, that makes total sense. And of course, loves right there in the middle between the two. And then he's the spirit of Souffrant of Samos. The spirit of a sound mind or the spirit of discipline or some translations.

00;21;04;06 - 00;21;45;15
Michael Sullivant
Self-discipline. It's a hard word to translate into English. And because it's, it's just, really a layered word, it's amazing word. And I'm surprised it's not used more. Yeah, for sure, but it it's basic really, as I've studied that word, it's about, an internal within the human. It's a, it's the regulation and synchronization of all the inner being with, with beauty and, and, proper function and just a, a bunch of stuff that exudes from it.

00;21;45;15 - 00;22;13;04
Michael Sullivant
So, yeah, the, I'm trying to I'm trying to remember the commentator, that I read that has the best, description of it. And, I might think of his name in a minute, but anyway, I as I was, I've been translating it mental health for the last few years. And this one morning I was writing a little blog about it or referring to it, and I just felt like I was supposed to write to N.T., right.

00;22;13;07 - 00;22;41;04
Michael Sullivant
Give send him an email. So I did. I sent anti-riot an email he wrote back in three minutes. He says, yes, this word is everything to do with the health of the mind. Wow. Oh, and it is, not a word, not the kind of word that we have in English equivalent for. And, so, you know, he affirmed, you know, my, intuition about it, about translating this word as mental health.

00;22;41;06 - 00;22;55;03
Michael Sullivant
The other time it's used, it's actually used two times for the same story. And it's the story of the gathering demoniac. And it says, really, it was delivered, you know, he was free and he was sitting at the feet of Jesus.

00;22;55;06 - 00;22;55;23
Murray Dueck
In his right.

00;22;55;23 - 00;22;59;04
Michael Sullivant
Clothed and in his right, right mind.

00;22;59;07 - 00;23;02;13
Murray Dueck
Interesting is oh, word.

00;23;02;16 - 00;23;06;16
Joshua Hoffert
So, so only Timothy. And then there, those are the two places.

00;23;06;19 - 00;23;20;06
Michael Sullivant
Yeah, yeah, in the two Gospels is surprising. Is, is is mentioned. Oh, and then in second Timothy one seven. So yeah. So I like to say it this way, the Holy Spirit knows mental health.

00;23;20;08 - 00;23;21;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

00;23;21;12 - 00;23;44;11
Michael Sullivant
Or Jesus knows mental health is like course they do, right? No. God made the human being. He designed us. And Jesus is the Prince of Life. And do you think the Prince of Life knows anything about mental health? Yeah, yeah, of course he does. And the God who made our brains and he made them a long time ago.

00;23;44;11 - 00;24;16;01
Michael Sullivant
They're like quantum computers without wires in the skulls. And they've been here a long time. But God's the one who designed it and knows it like no one else. And, And so the the one who made the human brain also wrote scripture. And so this is like they match their perfect match for each other. And, and when we are converted and saved, you know, in the big sense of the term, when we're saved, it has implications for our mental health.

00;24;16;03 - 00;24;23;23
Michael Sullivant
It has implications for our bodies. Because Christian spirituality is an embodied spirituality. Right?

00;24;23;27 - 00;24;24;18
Murray Dueck


00;24;24;20 - 00;24;53;13
Michael Sullivant
Our bodies, our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit. Paul says. And, and of course, the Holy Spirit resides in the inner being as well. But he's also influencing our bodies, and we want to present our bodies like Romans 12 says, present your body to God as a living sacrifice. And and it's interesting because it says that leads to the renewing of the mind.

00;24;53;15 - 00;25;00;19
Michael Sullivant
Right? And so there's a body mind connection in Romans 12.

00;25;00;21 - 00;25;01;10
Murray Dueck
Yes.

00;25;01;12 - 00;25;26;11
Michael Sullivant
That makes total sense. And that God does not bypass. He doesn't bypass our physical beings, our physical bodies, and he doesn't bypass our brains to help us become more like Jesus. He utilizes the human brain, the Holy Spirit utilizes the human brain. And this is true for Jesus as well. He was incarnated as a true human and is the true human.

00;25;26;18 - 00;25;36;28
Michael Sullivant
And the father in the spirit did bypass Jesus's brain to help him mature and grow to into who he is. You know who he was? That's right. Who he is.

00;25;37;00 - 00;26;14;03
Joshua Hoffert
It's actually an early church group. That's an early church. Heresy is the it happened just before the council of, I think it's Nicaea. It was either in between Nicaea and Chalcedony or just before Nicaea, where it was. Jesus was embodied but had no rational mind. He was just God with skin. Basically. And and it was firmly discounted as a, as a heresy because well, and and the under the underlying an undercurrent of the early church theology when it comes to when it comes to the redemptive narrative is for him to redeem humanity.

00;26;14;03 - 00;26;31;09
Joshua Hoffert
He had to assume all that it mean to be human, everything he assumed he redeemed, what he did not assume, he did not redeem. That's essentially the the the. Alright, so so he has to he had to have God had to have worked through a human mind and and a spiritual mind being renewed in the spirit of your mind.

00;26;31;09 - 00;26;33;14
Joshua Hoffert
Right. That's that Romans 12 verse as well.

00;26;33;16 - 00;26;35;24
Michael Sullivant
That's that's wrong. That's actually Ephesians four.

00;26;35;24 - 00;26;37;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Ephesians four. Okay.

00;26;37;02 - 00;26;38;24
Michael Sullivant
Right out of your mind. Yeah.

00;26;38;26 - 00;26;39;21
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Exactly.

00;26;39;21 - 00;26;44;00
Michael Sullivant
Spirit mind connection as well as a body mind connection.

00;26;44;02 - 00;27;10;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. If you didn't you didn't bypass the humanity in order to accomplish something on Earth. He actually works through humanity because that was part of the redemptive narrative. And, you know, you're it's funny that we're just kind of when we start, I this is this sometimes is the way I think about it. When we start removing some of the, like, bad thoughts in the sense of, you know, bigger thoughts about philosophy, ideas, theology, they tend to stick around.

00;27;10;25 - 00;27;33;18
Joshua Hoffert
It's not like they just fade into obscurity. And when we start to parse them out and go, well, maybe not, that's not what the Bible teaches. Maybe that's not what the Bible teaches. What emerges is a much clearer picture, and what you're describing is a much clearer picture of when the Holy Spirit embodies himself within someone mental health has the potential to start to flourish.

00;27;33;20 - 00;27;53;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And, you know, I'm just thinking, you know, we've been given the mind of Christ. We're being renewed in the spirit of your mind. There, the body mind connection you're talking about in Romans 12. It's like, yeah, as we as I think this is me just thinking out loud and trying to process what you're saying as we start to look like him.

00;27;53;24 - 00;28;03;23
Joshua Hoffert
Are are the the health of our thinking changes because it's no longer our thinking, it's our thinking with his thinking. That's. Yeah, yeah.

00;28;03;24 - 00;28;08;26
Michael Sullivant
And it's it's it's, we sometimes refer to this as the mutual mind.

00;28;08;28 - 00;28;09;22
Joshua Hoffert
There you go. Yeah, it's.

00;28;09;22 - 00;28;10;13
Murray Dueck
A nice term.

00;28;10;16 - 00;28;35;18
Michael Sullivant
But that we have a capacity, even a physical capacity in our brain to to experience a mutual mind with another person. And, and the way that it primarily happens is through, looking at a person's face. Another person's face. And so the face of God, you know, the great, high priestly prayer is may the Lord cause his face to shine upon you.

00;28;35;18 - 00;28;44;18
Michael Sullivant
So when we see the face of God. And it's also interesting that in the Hebrew there's no singular form for face. It's always plural. And so may the.

00;28;44;18 - 00;28;45;18
Joshua Hoffert
Faces.

00;28;45;21 - 00;29;11;18
Michael Sullivant
God shine upon you. And so these are facets of God's nature that he he's like this gem that with the infinite number of faces that turns toward us with a particular facet and reveals a facet of his nature to us that changes us because we're touching the face of it. We're seeing the face of God in that metaphorical sense.

00;29;11;18 - 00;29;13;27
Michael Sullivant
It's beautiful, just not so metaphorical.

00;29;14;00 - 00;29;40;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. That's we we try and make it more metaphorical than it actually maybe is. Right? Yeah. Wow. That's fascinating. I sorry, I'm just coming off this cold, so a little bit of coughing. Well, maybe that kind of leads us to the makeup of the brain as something more than just conscious thought. Right? Because you talked about the spirit mind connection.

00;29;40;01 - 00;29;58;15
Joshua Hoffert
The body mind connection. So what? When you say them, the brain is more than conscious thought. I mean, we know about it's kind of entered into popular vernacular, defense mechanisms. So we know that we have an autonomic nervous system. We know that we have, subconscious thoughts that.

00;29;58;21 - 00;29;59;03
Murray Dueck


00;29;59;03 - 00;30;16;25
Joshua Hoffert
You know, all that. So this is all kind of popular, popular vernacular, right? So when you say that the mind is the brain is more than just conscious thought. What do you mean by that? Yeah. And and then maybe you can talk about the four layers of, of the brain. In light of that as well.

00;30;16;28 - 00;30;50;08
Michael Sullivant
Sure. Yeah. So, you know, God made the human brain a long time ago. It's got this line right down the middle of it, right. That separates the two hemispheres. And and since the 1990s, we've been able to take pictures of the human brain with people who are alive. And so since the 1990s, the scientific community, the neuroscience community has learned tremendous things about the human brain that we didn't know before.

00;30;50;10 - 00;31;15;27
Michael Sullivant
We we had a functioning brain. We had descriptions for how the brain function and the outcome of its functions. But we didn't have the scientific knowledge. Right. What was actually happening, within the brain, and so we're the first generation of humans that know why we have two hemispheres.

00;31;15;29 - 00;31;17;14
Murray Dueck
For the right side.

00;31;17;15 - 00;31;50;29
Michael Sullivant
Just think about that. And so you can say, well, that's just, you know, human human knowledge, you know, coming our way, building on itself. But I think of it as the providence of God, that we know now how he designed our brains much more beautifully and clearly than we ever did before. And so a number of things that have been learned about the brain is, that it's it's doing all kinds of things for us that we don't have to think about.

00;31;51;02 - 00;32;14;15
Michael Sullivant
We would be if we had to think about everything that we needed for life and breath and all things. It would overwhelm us. The brain filter out a bunch of reality so that you can get your work done. And but the brain is doing all kinds of things for us. The brain is regulating your heartbeat. The brain is regulating your blood pressure.

00;32;14;15 - 00;32;49;25
Michael Sullivant
Your brain is regulating in your sleep cycle. Your brain is regulating all kinds of things about you, and filtering out a bunch of stuff that you don't need to know, so that you can have a life because you'd be overwhelmed with reality if you saw it all. So the the basic difference between the left hemisphere and the right is that the left hemisphere is where your conscious thoughts are, are forming, you know, and it's also where your decisions are being made.

00;32;49;25 - 00;33;19;25
Michael Sullivant
It's also where you're getting you're getting, words for, for the reality that is coming your way. And that reality is coming from the right side. And so the first part of your brain that becomes aware of some new information that comes through your senses, through your spinal cord, through your senses, and the first part of your brain that activates with that new information is at the bottom right of the brain.

00;33;20;03 - 00;33;45;01
Michael Sullivant
So you kind of turn your head to the right, to the left. Here, here's my right brain. So deep inside my right brain, near the spinal column is where that first level is activated. And and it's the, thalamus, and we call it level one. It's. And so the level one is very well developed at birth. You know, a little baby has a well-developed thalamus.

00;33;45;03 - 00;34;05;01
Michael Sullivant
And so what's it therefore. Right. What's the thalamus there for. Well, what we what we know now is it's there to first of all say is this new reality, something personal to me? You know, if it's not personal to me, then I'm going to filter it out. So it filters out the stuff that you don't need to read just.

00;34;05;03 - 00;34;31;20
Michael Sullivant
But oh, I, I'm at the airport and I'm looking for my, my wife who's meeting me at the airport, and I'm scanning all the faces and oh, there there's my wife. It's like, oh, that's personal to me. Yeah. I'm going to pay attention because she's my ride and she's my wife. Right. So and facial recognition is part of that function as well, that little babies within weeks can, can start to develop facial recognition.

00;34;31;23 - 00;35;02;22
Michael Sullivant
So if you think of computerization, you know how easy is it to program a computer to do an algebra problem. It's pretty easy. But how how how complicated it is to do facial recognition. Oh, that takes a lot of programing. Well, this little infant is brilliant because it recognizes it's mama's face. Right. And and the facial, the face to face relationship is very, very fundamental to human development.

00;35;02;24 - 00;35;25;10
Michael Sullivant
Eight hours a day, a mom and a baby are meant to have facial, face to face interactivity with each other. And the mother is downloading the organs, the organization of her brain into the baby's brain. Because a baby's brain is spaghetti brain. It's not organized. And so how does it get its brain built? How does it get its brain developed?

00;35;25;10 - 00;35;59;04
Michael Sullivant
It's through facial recognition, with mom reading each other's faces. And it's by the touch and by the smell. These are the things that cause a little human being to to grow. But the other thing that the thalamus does is it registers something very important which is belonging. And so that little baby down deep inside, if it's being delighted in by mama, it says, I belong and she belongs to me.

00;35;59;04 - 00;36;27;07
Michael Sullivant
I belong to her, she belongs to me. And then after a few months, few weeks, few months, mom's interacting with dad and the baby watches the interaction between mom and dad and and it sees that mom trusts this person, this face. And so the baby starts to trust dad as well, right? Bonds with dad. So the belonging part of us is down deep inside of our brain.

00;36;27;10 - 00;36;56;25
Michael Sullivant
And unfortunately, a lot of people don't get that experience of being delighted in, because that's the dynamic. It's about being delighted in by someone that you belong to. And if you don't get that and your thalamus is not regulated and it's it's it's hurting and it's but it's meant to be, it's meant to be ministered to by, a face delighting in that, in that person.

00;36;56;27 - 00;37;07;21
Michael Sullivant
Right. So that's level one. And and so it's personal to me and I'm delighted in and you know, I belong.

00;37;07;23 - 00;37;08;08
Joshua Hoffert
I'm thinking.

00;37;08;09 - 00;37;09;13
Michael Sullivant
That's awesome.

00;37;09;15 - 00;37;33;07
Joshua Hoffert
I'm thinking just a side note to that, that I wonder if because there's so many inner healing models today. Right. And with varying degrees of success and you can track but some of them track numbers and stuff like that. But I'm going, I wonder if all of it is. We just stumble into finding people that make us feel belong, belonging and acceptance and love.

00;37;33;09 - 00;37;53;18
Joshua Hoffert
And it has less to do with, oh, this is the mark because people get so caught up with, well, this is the model. That's right. And it has less to do with this. Is the model right? It has more to do with, oh, he saw me. He knew me. He loved me anyway. And all of a sudden that part of my brain starts to turn on and goes, yeah, oh, I'm safe here.

00;37;53;18 - 00;38;11;22
Joshua Hoffert
I can actually express this, right? Yeah. And it's actually where we we stumble into moments of healing, but it's not stumbling because it's actually from a more mature person. Yeah. And so anyway, I'm just going, oh yeah, it's probably more that, hey, there was a caring person that listened to me and that heard me. And

00;38;11;25 - 00;38;41;04
Michael Sullivant
Anyway, someone who delighted in me and and it's not this is the other aspect of it that I didn't mention. It's it's delighted in in me even though I'm weak. You right vulnerable even though I don't have any resources. So this is what the human being needs at a very fundamental level that I'm delighted in. I belong even though I'm so weak and I don't have much to contribute.

00;38;41;07 - 00;38;41;14
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;38;41;15 - 00;39;10;23
Murray Dueck
Right, man. Yeah. Do you know, what do you think, Michael, about just quick? Because I, I've heard that, the secret Life of the Unborn Child. There's a book that came out in the 90s somewhere about Tab Mary having, you know, baby, and going to see Elizabeth and, you know, John jumping in the womb that that, Jewish mothers would, would take their kids away for the first nine months and go somewhere very, very peaceful, stay with a relative just so that environment would affect that baby in that way.

00;39;10;23 - 00;39;12;21
Murray Dueck
Do you know anything about that? Have you heard that?

00;39;12;23 - 00;39;14;15
Michael Sullivant
I have not heard that.

00;39;14;17 - 00;39;18;20
Murray Dueck
But. Okay. I'm sorry. It just it's. Yeah, it seems to fit there.

00;39;18;22 - 00;39;42;08
Michael Sullivant
To to have a peaceful environment, you know, that's really awesome because babies their, their guard is down. So whatever they experience, they will register it as normal. So if they're being abused somehow, don't register abuse as normal because their guard is down later on it, their guard starts to build and go up and you're going to filter out something that's harmful.

00;39;42;08 - 00;40;03;05
Michael Sullivant
But little babies don't do that. Yeah. Wow. Oh, so we want little children, little infants to know that it's normal to be delighted in it. In your weakness, it's normal for you to be, to belong, even though you're you're not contributing anything to the group. Right.

00;40;03;12 - 00;40;04;00
Murray Dueck
Wow.

00;40;04;03 - 00;40;30;04
Michael Sullivant
This is wonderful. Baby needs to know this is the fantastic. The next thing about the brain, the next level of, processing the information. Because it's like a it's like a conch shell. That's the way your brain is designed, right? It grows. Right. So there's you probably beautiful, you know, mathematics behind that, right? How things grow and the spirals and everything in the world.

00;40;30;04 - 00;40;33;02
Michael Sullivant
Right. There's something right. Right. Almost divine about that.

00;40;33;05 - 00;40;33;26
Joshua Hoffert
The Mandela.

00;40;34;00 - 00;40;34;09
Murray Dueck
Effect.

00;40;34;12 - 00;41;01;00
Michael Sullivant
At some level, the next level is the amygdala, and that right side is the it's the part of the brain that that, is like a guard shack. That's, that's saying this is good or this is bad or this is scary or it's bad and scary and it's sending out very primal chemicals of fight.

00;41;01;03 - 00;41;03;23
Murray Dueck
Flight or freeze. Hey. Yeah.

00;41;03;24 - 00;41;31;20
Michael Sullivant
So you know, those are the chemicals that are released. And so, it's there to save your life when your life is threatened. But many people, amygdala are overactive, and they're afraid. They're living in fear, because, their amygdala is are overactive. And, they, they didn't get that belonging in that light that they needed at the lower level.

00;41;31;22 - 00;41;55;21
Michael Sullivant
And so their amygdala is, are they actually swell up and they send out chemicals of fight, flight, freeze and fun when you don't need to. And so this is where the self calming comes in to actually there are exercises that you can do that directly affect that amygdala on the right side that tells it to calm down. Right.

00;41;55;23 - 00;41;58;04
Michael Sullivant
You learn to calm it down.

00;41;58;08 - 00;41;59;16
Murray Dueck
Oh I want to know these.

00;41;59;23 - 00;42;35;06
Michael Sullivant
Yeah. So they're very semi. So they're they're very simple one. They're they're physical things that you can do because this is the way God's designed. So intentional breathing exercises. One of the ways to directly affect your amygdala and, and tell it to calm down. And so, like the Navy Seals will do box breathing for seconds in hold for four seconds, four seconds out through the mouth and through the nose, out through the mouth, four seconds out.

00;42;35;08 - 00;43;02;26
Michael Sullivant
And then for seconds of not breathing at all. And they do that box breathing before they go into an event to calm their nervous system. And and so your nervous system has two sides. It has the sympathetic which is the high energy. And then you have the parasympathetic, which is the lower energy. And a lot of people's sympathetic nervous systems are amped up, and they need to learn to bring them down and then that side down.

00;43;02;26 - 00;43;11;00
Michael Sullivant
So the intentional breathing is one way to do that. So one of those parents, which for me go ahead.

00;43;11;02 - 00;43;30;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Well, I'll just say as parents we do that right. So just take a deep breath. And we say to our kids all the time, like without even realizing what we're doing, is saying, you're amygdala is swell up a little bit. You know, you need to calm it down. You take a deep breath. And yeah, we did. We did that just the other night with my son was having a bit of anxiety over he wasn't feeling all that well.

00;43;30;15 - 00;43;52;23
Joshua Hoffert
And I went in and he was doing these short, quick breaths. I said, Finley, calm down. The short, quick breaths are not going to help you. Let's take a couple deep breaths. It was amazing how quickly he was like, oh, okay, okay. There was just, you know, it's we instinctually know these things. And then we totally forget when it comes to spiritual maturity or emotional maturity, like.

00;43;52;25 - 00;44;09;16
Murray Dueck
Well, even, even the saying, like before you say something stupid, count to five, you know, what do you what do you do it. Same thing. Okay. Yeah. If you pay attention to your breath while you're counting the five, you'll realize there's a change there. Yeah, absolutely. You know, you. It's so funny. There's some instinctual things we just don't talk about.

00;44;09;16 - 00;44;14;04
Joshua Hoffert
Some of the some of the rhythmic. Yeah. Go ahead. Sorry.

00;44;14;07 - 00;44;19;15
Michael Sullivant
We're the only creatures God has made that are able to do intentional breathing.

00;44;19;17 - 00;44;21;28
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, well, that's an interesting statement.

00;44;21;28 - 00;44;24;14
Murray Dueck
But yeah, that's really something else.

00;44;24;17 - 00;44;59;16
Joshua Hoffert
When you when you look at the training for prayer in the monastic history, oftentimes they had prayerful techniques that incorporated breathing, deep breathing in the presence of Jesus, breathing out like there's they're incorporating these kind of these kind of prayerful exercises right in there all the way back to the very beginning of the monastic movements. Right. It was it's not, you know, you can track that stuff back to, probably at least intentionally talked about in the fourth and fifth centuries and if not earlier in that.

00;44;59;18 - 00;45;00;26
Murray Dueck


00;45;00;28 - 00;45;32;24
Michael Sullivant
Yeah. So, so the, you know, the intentional breathing techniques calm the parasympathetic nervous system brings it back down to balance. Right. And you experience peace. And so the you again you have that body mind connection going on right. Body brain and then brain to mind. Mind is bigger than the brain. We don't we don't equate the mind with the brain.

00;45;32;27 - 00;45;57;25
Michael Sullivant
And we don't equate the, the soul with the brain. There's nothing about the brain that matches fully what the soul is, or what the mind is or the spirit, but but there's an interface and and the the spirit and the mind and the soul utilize the body. You know, the person. And so our brain is not bypassed.

00;45;57;25 - 00;46;22;13
Michael Sullivant
Our brain is incorporated into growth. Right. So, so that's that second level is the is the amygdala that's there to save your life if your life's in danger, you know. But if you're not, if you don't need to be afraid then it's good. And it's not sending out the chemicals. And the information is processed further into the brain.

00;46;22;15 - 00;46;49;28
Michael Sullivant
For your good things to happen. So that next level of the brain is the cingulate cortex, because we're talking about, like a master, a master control system for the brain. When that master control system is regulated and synchronized, then the rest of the brain optimizes automatically. So that third level is, got several, wonderful features about it.

00;46;50;00 - 00;47;08;08
Michael Sullivant
One is that, it's where you relational circuits are, and we actually have relational circuits in our brains. And what that means is the way that I like to tell people, because they can relate to it when they hear it, is, how do you know when you're in relational mode.

00;47;08;10 - 00;47;08;23
Murray Dueck


00;47;08;25 - 00;47;32;06
Michael Sullivant
How do you know when you're not in relational mode. Well when you're in relational mode those circuits are on. When you're not in relational mode, those circuits are dimming or they've gone off and God designed us to operate best to function best when our circuits are on. He wants us to live with our circuits on. And so we should.

00;47;32;06 - 00;47;54;26
Michael Sullivant
We learn and teach people to notice the difference and learn to turn them back on if they are dimming or going off. Because this is relational intelligence, and you can even go to sleep and still keep your relational circuits on, because God may want to interact with you relationally while you're asleep. And so you learn to keep your circuits on.

00;47;55;04 - 00;48;24;25
Michael Sullivant
You stay relationally aware, right? It's not about it's not about, attachment. So you can you can have distance. You can kind of disengage. We need to disengage at times from the people around us. We need some solitude. We need sleep. We need rest. Right. But you still keep your circuit, your relational circuits on, even if you're even if you're not engaged with a person in the moment.

00;48;24;27 - 00;48;56;02
Michael Sullivant
This part of the brain is also, where we have, our emotions, our big emotions are wired into that part of our brain, that right hemisphere. And so these, our primal emotions, they are, anger. Sorry. Sadness, anger, disgust, shame, fear and despair. They're. Those are the big six that are hardwired into the right hemisphere.

00;48;56;02 - 00;49;23;00
Michael Sullivant
They have circuits in your right hemisphere. And so what that means is when something happens in your life around you, in your in your environment, that's causes you to be sad or angry or disgusted, you don't choose whether you're going to feel those things. They just happen that your your circuit is triggered and they happen. And so those are the big six.

00;49;23;06 - 00;49;47;04
Michael Sullivant
There are other parts of the brain that are host to other kinds of emotions, but those primal ones are all hard wired into the right hemisphere, and they're hardwired there by God's creation. There's a reason for these big emotions. So we are meant to feel them. We are meant to validate them. We are meant to, experience them.

00;49;47;10 - 00;50;09;11
Michael Sullivant
And and this is what I call the trials of life. And, you know, you go through trials and the trials are meant for good. And so that's what these big emotions are meant for. They're meant for good because there's something to learn. There's something about God to learn. There's something about life to learn. There's something about, the warfare in our world to learn.

00;50;09;11 - 00;50;41;03
Michael Sullivant
There's something about yourself and other people you're meant to learn. And so we're disrupted by these big emotions. But they are meant to be accepted and validated. Like, I really am sad right now. And there's a good reason for it. And so you could say, well, why would God ever want a person to feel sad? And they asked one of the answers would be, well, for the purpose of developing compassion, because compassion is to feel sadness with another person.

00;50;41;06 - 00;51;08;22
Michael Sullivant
But people need compassion. And so you need to know sadness so that you can have compassion. Right? So these are there's redemptive reasons for these big emotions. And they're meant to be experienced, validated, and they are meant to be then metabolized so that you're not living in sadness, but you've experienced sadness for a good reason, and you've learned something from it and something good has come out from it.

00;51;08;24 - 00;51;11;01
Michael Sullivant
All right. Wow. That makes sense.

00;51;11;03 - 00;51;33;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's. Yeah, that's a that's an emotional intelligence. Right. Well there's and then even thinking of another layer, there's multiple times in Scripture that talks about the Lord being, you know, grieved over the Holy Spirit can be grieved by our actions. The Lord is grieved over what happens to the nation of Israel. The people walk away from him.

00;51;33;05 - 00;52;08;28
Joshua Hoffert
So sadness is also an aspect of him, right? You had said, we experience a big emotion. One of the things we learn about is, you know, we learn the empathy, but we also learn, oh, sometimes he feels that way. Yes. And unless I went through that, I would know that he felt that way. And, you know, it's interesting to me that I think you could probably characterize, the typical the typical 19th 20th century discipleship model.

00;52;09;01 - 00;52;19;07
Joshua Hoffert
I don't think it would characterize itself around helping you experience big emotions. It would characterize itself probably around big emotions are a thing to be avoided. An image.

00;52;19;12 - 00;52;20;00
Murray Dueck
Pops into a.

00;52;20;00 - 00;52;23;15
Joshua Hoffert
Little bowl. Swallowed. Yes. Yeah.

00;52;23;22 - 00;52;27;07
Murray Dueck
I'm feeling an emotion right now. We just discussed because my cat once again.

00;52;27;07 - 00;52;29;12
Joshua Hoffert
So you can you can.