Developing a Sound Mind: an interview with Michael Sullivant Part 2

Once again, the boys are back with Michael Sullivant. Tune in as Michael talks about developing a nest of virtues, how the ancients intuited spiritual growth, synchronizing the mind with Christ, and much more! 

For more about Michael Sullivant, visit: radiusministries.org

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Transcript

00:00:17:47 - 00:00:44:55
Michael Sullivant
I call it a nest. Did I ever tell this to you guys before? No, I don't think so. There's, like, a nest of virtues, virtuous motivations. But don't just think of joy as a. It's a virtue. It's a virtuous motivation. It's true. It impels us through life. Love impels us through life. Joy impels us. Peace tells us these are great, great, virtuous motivations.

00:00:45:00 - 00:01:05:26
Michael Sullivant
So I've got this nest of virtuous motivations that have been built up in the pre conscious part of my being the, the upstream part of me, that's that's non-verbal. The. Part of me. Part of me. Part of the free part of me.

00:01:05:31 - 00:01:12:09
Murray Dueck
Part of me that's drawn from.

00:01:12:14 - 00:01:39:26
Joshua Hoffert
When it comes to, you know, having been in pastoral ministry, right, as you said, vocational ministry for most of your life, except for your three year stint in business. And when you look at the the maturation of discipleship models, and how we understand that, and you think back to 40 years ago and, or even 50 years ago when you're on The Disciple, you're on the campus and you're seeing people get saved.

00:01:39:31 - 00:01:54:10
Joshua Hoffert
What, what how do you see the difference between those then and now, given what you're saying? Yeah. Because I think there's a I would imagine you would have a note. You've noticed a vast difference between where you guys are at now and what you saw back then.

00:01:54:15 - 00:02:20:54
Michael Sullivant
Yeah, it's really true because the models that were being held out to us by the evangelical world were very westernized, number one, you know, from the enlightenment. And, the grandchildren of the enlightenment, you know, rational thought is elevated and, and, conscious choice is elevated to a place in the hierarchy of motivations that they don't belong in.

00:02:20:59 - 00:02:55:39
Michael Sullivant
So there are more important motivations that are above those, that are things like love, joy, peace, belonging and group identity that comes from belonging. And having a mutual mind with a greater mind is another one. So these are the the non-verbal pricks, conscious motivations that are primary and and those are the ones that create this. I call it a nest.

00:02:55:40 - 00:03:34:10
Michael Sullivant
Did I ever tell this to you guys before? No, I don't think so. There's like a nest of virtues, virtuous motivations. Or don't just think of joy as a as a virtue. It's a virtuous motivation. It it impels us through life. Love impels us through life. Joy impels us. Peace compels us. These are great. Great, virtuous motivations. So I've got this nest of virtuous motivations that have been built up in the pre conscious part of my being the, the upstream part of me, that's that's non-verbal.

00:03:34:15 - 00:03:51:53
Michael Sullivant
We didn't talk about those virtues like that. Oh, not right away. So how would you fit that into. I guess I I'm sure it's going to fit right here, but unless you become like a little child, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Like there's got to be that whole little child. Because the little children live out of joy and heart phase connection.

00:03:51:54 - 00:04:14:59
Michael Sullivant
And and, I mean, that makes way more sense of this, that verse. If we're thinking about these things now, this and I and I think the maybe the most outstanding virtue of the child is vulnerability. And so that, again, is something that we don't esteem, in the history of evangelicalism and fundamentally, yeah, in the Christian church.

00:04:14:59 - 00:04:44:26
Michael Sullivant
And so now we're starting to wake up like, oh, being vulnerable, being like Paul in Second Corinthians. It's all about weakness, right? I'm yeah, yeah, yeah. But he's strong. And we have been ashamed to be weak in acceptable ways. Weaknesses that are acceptable weaknesses. Right. And there are many acceptable weaknesses. So little children aren't ashamed of being weak.

00:04:44:31 - 00:05:10:16
Michael Sullivant
But we are, because we've been taught we're not supposed to be. So we put on front of being strong, and I put my best foot forward and my strengths to you guys so that you will accept me and appreciate me. But, man, don't don't require me to share something about a weakness, right? Right. Because then you might not like me, or you might reject me, or you might not pay me or whatever.

00:05:10:18 - 00:05:11:07
Michael Sullivant


00:05:11:12 - 00:05:31:21
Joshua Hoffert
I, I think I think, Michael, you've single handedly pinpointed what attracted Marie and I to writings like the Desert Fathers in the first place. Is. And what? That's right. Like, we had, back at the end of the year, we had Andrew Arndt on, who's a pastor in Denver and wrote a book about the Desert Fathers as well.

00:05:31:21 - 00:05:55:17
Joshua Hoffert
And, and, and so just thinking about his story that what we saw in the faces of those people and what they were writing was a willingness to be weak and to share from that place of weakness and then and then rhythms of life, like one of the one of the common practices which eventually the Catholic Church, you know, so dubbed consolations and desolations.

00:05:55:22 - 00:06:14:05
Joshua Hoffert
But you, you go all the way back to the Desert Fathers, and this is a monk at the beginning of the day, should search his heart and see anything he did that pleased the Lord, and anything he did that displeased the Lord. And at the end of the day, he would do the same thing, like be okay feeling that that grief or shame, and works through it in context of your union with him.

00:06:14:10 - 00:06:15:23
Joshua Hoffert
Right? That's essentially what he's.

00:06:15:24 - 00:06:16:25
Michael Sullivant
There, just like.

00:06:16:26 - 00:06:19:58
Joshua Hoffert
God love you. They're exactly yes. Like God love you. They're in the midst of your heart.

00:06:19:58 - 00:06:21:54
Michael Sullivant
Before you do it. Every day.

00:06:21:58 - 00:06:44:48
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. Every day. So you see these rhythms that are baked into, you know, that, you know, you look back at, movements in Christian history and you look at the that particular movement, the Desert Fathers is one that produced great mature disciples. Why did it produce great, mature disciples? Well, fundamentally, they're operating on a level that you're talking about.

00:06:44:53 - 00:06:46:57
Joshua Hoffert
And and without realizing that 18th.

00:06:46:57 - 00:06:48:45
Michael Sullivant
Century German theologian.

00:06:48:50 - 00:07:15:43
Joshua Hoffert
They were not exactly. And so I think that's what's attracted us beyond the history of the Evangelii church and, you know, great theological, theological teachings and all that. Right. Outside of maybe Sophie Day, we talked about that on the on the podcast many times. I like poking at some of the Lutheran isms. But we look back and we go, oh, there were people practicing things that we don't practice today.

00:07:15:48 - 00:07:34:44
Joshua Hoffert
And, and they're fundamentally based off of the principles you're talking about. But like you said, we've with humanities never lived in an age where it understood the brain like it does today. And we're going. So you're pinpointing, I think, why so many of us have been attracted to those ancient writings going. Anthony didn't talk about how amazing he was.

00:07:34:49 - 00:07:52:28
Joshua Hoffert
He talked about how weak he was and and people flocked to it. And they go, look at this guy who says he's weak. But none of them believed he was weak, right? They all thought he was strong because he talked about how weak he was. And it's like, it's so counterintuitive. And look at this, this practice here, this practice here.

00:07:52:42 - 00:08:10:29
Joshua Hoffert
These are so helpful for me. And and so I it's almost a in a way that because of the, the neural theology, we're recapturing of value another layer of value for why these things are so important in our daily lives. Yeah. Right. And and I like why they produce such maturity.

00:08:10:44 - 00:08:19:09
Michael Sullivant
Yeah. Now that we now that we know more profoundly how the brain operates, it allows us to cooperate more effectively.

00:08:19:13 - 00:08:20:17
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Yeah.

00:08:20:22 - 00:08:27:20
Michael Sullivant
To become like Jesus. And so we're we're just the knowledge is helping us to get on board, you know, and it's.

00:08:27:27 - 00:08:28:18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00:08:28:22 - 00:08:35:49
Michael Sullivant
It's, it's, it's things that are that the ancients intuited, but they just didn't have the science. For now, we've got to validate it.

00:08:35:56 - 00:08:58:44
Joshua Hoffert
Which is which is an excellent thing to point out because this doesn't mean that what what that you're inventing anything new, you're just rediscovering why they worked so well in the first place. Yeah. And and we tended to lose sight of that because we emphasized functional Christianity as opposed to what you were talking about. The, the nest of virtues.

00:08:58:49 - 00:09:07:24
Joshua Hoffert
Right? It was like, just don't sin and stack some chairs and do a Bible reading plan and you'll be okay. All right.

00:09:07:29 - 00:09:09:47
Michael Sullivant
Recite the doctrinal statement, you know.

00:09:09:51 - 00:09:11:05
Joshua Hoffert
Recite the doctrinal statements.

00:09:11:05 - 00:09:12:22
Michael Sullivant
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right.

00:09:12:34 - 00:09:29:36
Joshua Hoffert
Make sure make sure you take the word Catholic out of any of the creeds. If you're going to do any of the creeds, you're going to take the word Catholic out of there. And, you know, it's just it's funny how we got so caught up on some of the little things that determine the entire theological underpinning. And you're like, well, that was weird.

00:09:29:40 - 00:09:30:52
Joshua Hoffert
So I love, you know.

00:09:30:52 - 00:09:47:48
Michael Sullivant
The other thing that is really good to learn this stuff is that, I mean, even still, you know, to the left side of the brain is is like, what a and for the left side of the brain to go, oh, you may be there is some science behind this. Maybe I'll shut up for a while and I'll let the other part of the brain lead.

00:09:47:53 - 00:10:10:31
Michael Sullivant
Yeah, I guess it's going to be okay. You know, it just. It gives you permission, right? Yeah, it gives you permission, which is beautiful. It is beautiful. Yeah. So I'm going to come back to the nest. So if you've got these, these this virtuous nest, of virtuous motivations, these are the things that are really moving us through life more powerfully than anything else.

00:10:10:31 - 00:10:36:20
Michael Sullivant
Then sadness comes to us, and there's a place for it. Come and sit in the dark. Oh, God. Oh, I'm sad right now. Why are you sad? Oh, because my dog, we had to put our dog down, right? And I feel the sadness and and so now feel it. Okay. Validate the big emotions need to be validated. Rather than talking people out of them.

00:10:36:20 - 00:11:06:29
Michael Sullivant
They need to be validated that, you know, like, I'll give you an example. When Jim Wilder was called into, session with a, a, therapist and a suicidal client, and so, so he was there to help the, therapist learn to be a better therapist. So the suicidal person starts to tell about their suicidal tendencies, season thoughts, and some things that had happened to them.

00:11:06:34 - 00:11:32:55
Michael Sullivant
And the therapist wanted to interrupt them and tell them it wasn't so bad. And Jim Wilder said, no, no, no, no, it that really was bad. In fact, that was probably more painful than you're even telling us. And the therapist started to panic a little bit because Jim Wilder is getting that person to validate.

00:11:33:00 - 00:11:33:45
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00:11:33:50 - 00:12:03:11
Michael Sullivant
You know how how powerful that negative experience was in their life and how bad it really was. And so as he started to take a little charge of that session, that suicidal patient started to get some healing because somebody was validating what they were experiencing. Right. And even helping them to validate themselves even more. Oh yeah. Wonderful. Oh, wow.

00:12:03:15 - 00:12:03:55
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00:12:04:00 - 00:12:24:47
Michael Sullivant
And and bringing it over into the nest. So the sadness has a place to sit. The anger has a place to sit. Like, okay, I'm angry right now. I wonder why God is allowing me to experience this thing that's making me angry. Does he have a purpose for it? Is there is there a reason for this trial that I'm going?

00:12:24:56 - 00:12:48:43
Michael Sullivant
Oh yes. Anger can lead me to intervene in a situation that needs intervention. And Jesus did this on several occasions, right? Where he's in the synagogue on a Sabbath day, and there's a man with a withered arm and the religious leaders are like, is he going to try to heal him because you're not supposed to heal on the Sabbath?

00:12:48:44 - 00:12:59:20
Michael Sullivant
And that's work. And Jesus was mad and he healed the guy out of his anger and out of his passion. He healed him out of his anger.

00:12:59:25 - 00:13:08:24
Joshua Hoffert
Same word in Romans one for wrath. Let's see. It's the same word that's used in Romans one and in the marketplace. It's not interesting. So he was wrathful. It's.

00:13:08:29 - 00:13:09:07
Michael Sullivant
Yeah.

00:13:09:12 - 00:13:10:32
Joshua Hoffert
So he was hot and bothered.

00:13:10:34 - 00:13:32:08
Michael Sullivant
But this is a, this is a a big emotion. Yeah. Being used for good because Jesus is being himself. And this is one of the goals when you're going through big emotions is the way that you can metabolize them, is to interact with Jesus. Stay connected to Jesus in the big emotion and and then say, what does it like me to be myself in this situation?

00:13:32:08 - 00:13:56:45
Michael Sullivant
And how can I be my best self and my Jesus is best self? In that moment was to heal the guy you know from his withered arm and take the heat. You know that he had to take. So this is true for all these big emotions sadness, anger, disgust, shame, fear and despair. We're meant to validate them when they come.

00:13:56:50 - 00:14:17:41
Michael Sullivant
We're meant to interact with Jesus around them, stay connected to him in real time, and listen for his his still, small voice to be who you are and and who you're supposed to be. And and then God will work good out of the trial.

00:14:17:46 - 00:14:39:36
Michael Sullivant
So that's that third level of the brain. This is where those those big emotions are hardwired. They have circuits in that part of your brain. Yeah. What's the name of that part again? One more time. Just the cingulate cortex. Got it. Okay. It's done. Remember all this? It's level three. Level one is the, thalamus, the belonging, the, you know, the,

00:14:39:41 - 00:15:13:37
Michael Sullivant
I'm loved and cherished even though I'm weak. The second level is the fear. Yeah. Right below God. Right. Flight and freeze and fawn. And then the third level is the, relational circuits, are on, you know, you have relational circuits there. You also have these big emotional circuits there. And you also have this ability to come into a mutual mind with another person, one person at a time, where you look into their face, they're looking at your face, body language, whatever.

00:15:13:48 - 00:15:40:15
Michael Sullivant
And here's what I say is, oh, I get you right non-verbally. Right. It's nonverbal, I get you, I see you, I get you, you get me. Wow. We're on. We are synchronized. So this is a synchronization of human beings one with another. And of course God's a person too. And so he wants to synchronize with us. And this is where the mind of Christ I think comes in on the physical level.

00:15:40:19 - 00:16:01:02
Michael Sullivant
Yeah. That we are we come into a mutual mind with God and we share his thoughts, and he's sharing his thoughts with us. And and we're on the same page. Well, the, the fourth level of the left of the right hemisphere is the executive control center of the system. And it's it's the it's got this tremendous power.

00:16:01:06 - 00:16:27:20
Michael Sullivant
It's, it's right behind your right eyebrow and it grows. And to be a sixth of your brain, it's continuing to grow. This is the plasticity part of the brain. It continues to learn throughout your lifetime. It's building new neural connections all the time. And it has, the ability to be a host to your true identity, to joy and to maturity.

00:16:27:25 - 00:16:52:53
Michael Sullivant
And so it's it's meant to be in the driver's seat for the lower levels of that of the brain. And it's able it has like a mute button that it uses for the amygdala. So, you know, my amygdala is going off, but my prefrontal cortex on the right side is saying, no, you don't need to be afraid right now.

00:16:52:57 - 00:17:12:54
Michael Sullivant
It's the mute button and silence. Is it? So I don't even think like, if you were a little kid and you got bit by a dog, your amygdala in your in the amygdala part of your brain, you're afraid of dogs, but you've learned through the years with wisdom and maturity that not all dogs are bad and not all dog.

00:17:12:55 - 00:17:25:06
Michael Sullivant
Right. And so now your prefrontal cortex has the way of looking at the dog situation and hitting the mute button, say, you don't need to be afraid of this dog. And is this a friend?

00:17:25:06 - 00:17:48:08
Joshua Hoffert
Is that is that the is the prefrontal cortex? Correct me if I'm wrong. Is it the part of the brain because isn't it that the male brain reach it's reaches maturity between 20 and 25, and the female brain reaches maturity closer to the age of 18? Is that the. That's the when the prefrontal cortex does kind of developed and set in.

00:17:48:08 - 00:17:50:44
Joshua Hoffert
That's when the mute button starts to exist. Yeah.

00:17:50:51 - 00:17:52:11
Michael Sullivant
Yeah I would.

00:17:52:15 - 00:17:52:48
Joshua Hoffert
Have of that.

00:17:52:57 - 00:18:19:27
Michael Sullivant
Yeah I'd say that's true. And then I would also add and your right prefrontal cortex is continuing to mature and it's continuing to grow throughout your life span. And so we're lifetime learners. And you're right in your brain is continuing to grow. And and it will help you. Oh if it's regulated and synchronized with the other, levels of the brain, then you're going to become a brilliant person.

00:18:19:32 - 00:18:46:45
Michael Sullivant
And then your left hemisphere for it passes its reality over to the left for filing and for words and for, conscious thinking and for choices. And so your left hemisphere falls in line. Well, when that right hemisphere is regulated and synchronized, so you become a brilliant person, a brilliant Jesus follower, and you're so how does.

00:18:46:50 - 00:18:47:37
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Go ahead.

00:18:47:42 - 00:18:48:45
Michael Sullivant
Now you go.

00:18:48:50 - 00:19:18:14
Joshua Hoffert
Okay the how then then the big question is so you, you shared some of the self this some of the self quieting. Yeah. Right. For for calming the amygdala. And so then okay now you're talking about synchronization from level four or. Yeah right. Prefrontal cortex all the way down to the thalamus. So are there exercises that help facilitate that.

00:19:18:19 - 00:19:42:02
Joshua Hoffert
How how does someone become synchronized. Because I think sometimes we think you people stumble into spiritual and emotional maturity without realizing that, no, just the right set of factors existed. And and it looked like an accident, but it's actually intentional. Yeah, yeah. Whether they had wise mentors or whatever. So what what produces that synergy between the four levels and how do we how do we help get there?

00:19:42:14 - 00:19:44:20
Joshua Hoffert
How do we help? How do we get ourselves? How do we help people get there?

00:19:44:22 - 00:19:59:57
Michael Sullivant
Yeah. Well, there's there's two main means of this happening in our lives. The first is that we become securely attached to someone with a more mature brain, a more mature soul. Then we have.

00:20:00:02 - 00:20:14:00
Joshua Hoffert
A does that exist to, for, for ad infinitum, like, you know, is there, is there like an age where it's like, okay, I don't need that securely attached older, wiser person? Or is it kind of like, no, we always need that around us.

00:20:14:05 - 00:20:23:48
Michael Sullivant
Well, I think that I think that you could let's say I had that with my grandfather and now he's passed away. But the goodness of that is still is still.

00:20:23:48 - 00:20:27:47
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. You know, it's not passed away from you, but it's.

00:20:27:52 - 00:20:44:46
Michael Sullivant
Yeah. But the more that the more people that you do are able to have that within. And we do have a limitation when we can't have it with everybody. So it's going to be a circle of people in your life, maybe a different circle from one stage of life to another at any given time you can be.

00:20:44:46 - 00:20:45:33
Joshua Hoffert
But it's always they're.

00:20:45:36 - 00:20:48:05
Michael Sullivant
Really attached to so many people, you know, the.

00:20:48:05 - 00:20:49:31
Joshua Hoffert
Need is always there anyway.

00:20:49:35 - 00:21:23:43
Michael Sullivant
Yeah, the need is always there. And and what happens is they get behind what we call the firewall of your life. And when they get behind the firewall is it gives them the natural authority to speak into your identity and character. So so they've earned that kind of intuitive respect, you know, that you give to them. And and so they have a tremendous power to, for good, to bless you, to help you and to download their skills, their brain skills to you.

00:21:23:47 - 00:21:37:00
Michael Sullivant
They've got a bigger mind. And you do and you're you're getting this bigger mind influence and it's helping you. It it literally is rewiring your, your brain because of their, your relationship with that person.

00:21:37:00 - 00:21:54:35
Joshua Hoffert
Their presence in your life. And you're seeing their face and you're experiencing mutual mind with them so that when you say download, it's not oh, they gave me the four teaching points. Yeah. It's I spent like I spent time with them. It's nonverbal. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Yeah I just I want to clarify that there's not a point where people go, I have reached maturity.

00:21:54:35 - 00:22:15:35
Joshua Hoffert
I no longer need anybody. Right. And I want to clarify that it's not I sat under someone's teaching. And so now I do what they did. Yeah. Yeah. It's not so transactional is that it's it's much more it's relational. It's not transactional at all. It's I spend time with and I'm influenced by them. And because of their role in my life, they I love that they've got behind the firewall.

00:22:15:35 - 00:22:20:00
Joshua Hoffert
And now they have they have intuitive access to teach me what kind of person to become.

00:22:20:13 - 00:22:49:05
Michael Sullivant
Yeah, I had that with Dallas Willard. Okay. Right. I didn't see Dallas a lot, but when we did, there was something very special there. He got behind my firewall and I feel his influence to this day. Sure. Interesting, right. And it wasn't because of what he said. It was because of his body language, his look, the look in his eye, the look on his face, the way he would interact with me, the way he would touch me.

00:22:49:10 - 00:22:52:15
Michael Sullivant
I was deeply affected by that man.

00:22:52:20 - 00:22:53:04
Joshua Hoffert
Right, right.

00:22:53:08 - 00:23:30:19
Michael Sullivant
So he got behind my firewall. And so that's number one. Is somebody wise, somebody mature, somebody with a well-developed life, get gets behind your firewall. The second thing that that helps us with this is storytelling. So it's not interesting okay. So. Right. Storytelling is a very important means of actually in integrating the virtues that are meant to be integrated from the, the, the story of that person or, you know, whatever.

00:23:30:31 - 00:23:57:30
Michael Sullivant
So storytelling and we teach about storytelling. We teach the best way to tell a story, because the way that you want to tell a story is by getting your listeners to actually track with in their brains, they're actually tracking with the process of the story at every level. And so there's a there's a special way to tell a story that accomplishes that.

00:23:57:35 - 00:24:29:46
Michael Sullivant
So I can just outline that for you real quick. So first of all, it's a story that's autobiographical. I'm telling you my story out of my experience. Right. Number one. Number two, I'm using words that have emotions, emotional words for the story. Then I am using physical gestures that are appropriate, and the volume of my voice and the tone of my voice are appropriate for the storytelling for that particular story.

00:24:29:51 - 00:24:52:06
Michael Sullivant
And then I am finishing the story by telling you how it was like me to do what I did, or if I didn't act like myself, how I failed to do that and and that if I had to do it over again, here's how I do it. Those are the elements that create a good story. And it's under three minutes.

00:24:52:11 - 00:25:23:42
Joshua Hoffert
Right now I can think of. I'm just I'm laughing at myself because I can think of how many times I cornered a friend when, like after my parents divorce, for instance, they separated. I was 18 and there was a lot to process there, but I remember how many times I told a friend that story in in and and just going, yeah, it was pretty much not, you know, intuitively, I guess, on some level, telling my story in a way that mirrors those things that helped me.

00:25:23:53 - 00:25:42:24
Joshua Hoffert
It wasn't so much about educating them. I realized after the fact it was I was processing it and trying to understand how it impacted me and the kind of person I was after it happened. And so I would tell the story to people and I again, I can't even tell you how many times I don't think I even cared if they heard me.

00:25:42:29 - 00:26:05:35
Joshua Hoffert
I was trying to tell my story right. And and I can reflect back on that and go, yeah, I did that. I've done that a few different times with with traumatic, painful episodes that we've been through and the need to tell the story lessened with time as I was able to find people around me that could hear me, understand me, empathize with me, and and speak into that as well.

00:26:05:39 - 00:26:16:01
Joshua Hoffert
So I'm just going, yeah, that makes total sense to me, because I could think of doing that intuitively without even realizing I was storytelling to help process difficult things.

00:26:16:06 - 00:26:46:29
Michael Sullivant
And, and, and also, you know, beautiful things, and just, you know, like, you know, Murray's really good, let's say, at, managing his anger and I'm not. And so maybe the other way, Murray and I become friends. He gets behind my firewall because I trust him to that degree. And and I say, you know, Murray, I've notice how you just handle anger so well.

00:26:46:34 - 00:27:10:43
Michael Sullivant
How did you learn that? And that sense that that's sets him on a journey of, yeah. Where did I get that from? You know, realizing, oh, it was his grandmother, you know, and the way that she taught that she modeled. It's modeling. She modeled that. Interesting. Yeah. And it's I realized now that I got that from my grandma, you know, she loved Jesus.

00:27:10:43 - 00:27:41:06
Michael Sullivant
And she was like this. And I just took that in, you know, because she was one firewall. And so now Murray's told me the story of his grandmother and how she taught him without even trying, taught him how to manage his anger. And then I can adopt his story into my life and into my in, into my brain, literally, so that the next time I am angry, you know what's going to happen.

00:27:41:06 - 00:27:57:28
Michael Sullivant
I'm going to think about my conversation with Murray and his grandmother, and I'm going to my brain is going to try to help me by saying, be like Murray, be like Murray, and be like his grandma. You can do that. You can be like anything, and we can imitate each other. In the Michael.

00:27:57:28 - 00:27:58:07
Joshua Hoffert
Sullivan.

00:27:58:13 - 00:27:59:00
Michael Sullivant
Word.

00:27:59:05 - 00:28:06:00
Joshua Hoffert
And Michael Sullivan didn't even realize that. He just made a case for the Saints in the Catholic, in the Orthodox tradition.

00:28:06:05 - 00:28:08:53
Michael Sullivant
Yes he did. Did he, very good.

00:28:08:55 - 00:28:19:18
Joshua Hoffert
Well, people we look to and learn from and imitate and go, that's an example I want to know anyway.

00:28:19:23 - 00:28:50:16
Michael Sullivant
Yeah. Right. You're built for stories, you know, and that's, you know, this is feeding you, you know, you're you're the stories of the fathers and mothers of the faith right from centuries ago. You're feeding on those stories, and those stories are changing. You know, and that's the way we're built. Were designed for stories and storytelling. And this is, again, something that's very different from the models of discipleship that we were handed in our early days as evangelical.

00:28:50:16 - 00:28:56:47
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. Oh, no one was saying storytelling as a way of producing spiritual maturity. Who was saying that 40 years ago?

00:28:56:49 - 00:29:06:51
Michael Sullivant
You know, you know, I remember that saying, like, you're like a German theologian. Why you say in two words what you can say is 12, right? So,

00:29:06:56 - 00:29:08:08
Joshua Hoffert
That's funny, Mary.

00:29:08:13 - 00:29:27:10
Michael Sullivant
But yeah, but the whole thinking, I mean, when you think about parables like, why are there so many parables? Why is so much symbolic language there? It is, right there. You know, you know, we do an activation and and it's not originally to meet, where, where somebody has to write out their life story as a parable or, or a, you know, a Disney story.

00:29:27:10 - 00:29:43:53
Michael Sullivant
They have to write it out. And then one person listens to the story from, like, the point of view of a healer and one as the warrior and one as the teacher. And you, you pray for them from that perspective. If they after they've told you your life story and it's so you like, you know, and it's not not originally to me, it's from this guy Jim McNish.

00:29:43:53 - 00:30:01:19
Michael Sullivant
But what a and it's so powerful. And people are like, I don't get this. And then when they do it, it's because they know in their bread what those seeds in their, their story is really going to. And it just accesses those points by story. It's it's brilliant. So it's good to see this line up with the actual functioning of the brain.

00:30:01:19 - 00:30:04:10
Michael Sullivant
Like, yeah, it's fascinating. Wow.

00:30:04:15 - 00:30:08:27
Joshua Hoffert
It's wonderful. Do you have a couple more minutes?

00:30:08:32 - 00:30:12:50
Michael Sullivant
Yeah, sure. Can you walk us through so a couple things, Michael, like.

00:30:13:03 - 00:30:27:33
Joshua Hoffert
Well, I want to ask you a question, and then. Yeah, I want I want to ask one more, one more question in regards to what he said. And then I want to get there. There is maybe maybe if you have time to run Marie and I through at least one exercise and then. Because when we can model it right.

00:30:27:33 - 00:30:53:06
Joshua Hoffert
We've talked about modeling and how important that is. So you model it to us and and that way we'll all embody Dallas Willard through you. And now we've got more cult of the Saints. You know, our, our Orthodox and Catholic listeners will go see, we've been trying to tell you all along, but the question is, okay, you've got the trust invites access intuitively behind the firewall.

00:30:53:10 - 00:31:15:33
Joshua Hoffert
So I'm guessing that based on life experience, the wrong kind of person can get behind the firewall. What? How do you what do you do personally? They someone's listening and they go, oh, my goodness, I've been influenced by this person. I didn't even realize it or whatever. You know, I've got the wrong kind of people behind my firewall.

00:31:15:38 - 00:31:33:44
Joshua Hoffert
So what do you do with that? And how do you help people get out of that? Because that would be very delicate and tender, I would imagine at that point. And, you know, the amygdala is on overdrive, the thalamus is is not developed through attachment. And now I'm listening to the wrong people later in life because I'm so lacking those things.

00:31:33:49 - 00:31:37:43
Joshua Hoffert
And my firewalls all screwed up. So what do you do at that point?

00:31:37:47 - 00:32:10:11
Michael Sullivant
Yeah. I think that the the simplest way I can answer that is, we encourage people to start, like, seriously praying to God that he will, that he will give them the wisdom to not be so close to the people that they shouldn't be so close to, and that he would help them through that process of changing the nature of that relationship and ship.

00:32:10:16 - 00:32:12:18
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And that is that can be hard. Yeah.

00:32:12:20 - 00:32:32:59
Michael Sullivant
And then to pray that God would give you some healthy people. Yeah. And bring them your way because the way that these negative relationships or these, these, destructive relationships are overcome is primarily through new relationships that are.

00:32:32:59 - 00:32:49:37
Joshua Hoffert
Health care, right? Right. Yeah, that makes sense. So there's not like you pay one 2995 and it's fixed like that. It's it takes time, prayer and wisdom and that transparency that you were talking about do with new with new, healthier people.

00:32:49:50 - 00:33:15:52
Michael Sullivant
Yeah, yeah. You got to know you got to find your spiritual family, right. You know, and I would think having some understanding of these levels of the brain and what's influencing what eventually you could probably see your pattern a whole lot easier, with these people. Oh, my amygdala is kicking in. Look where I'm going. You can become a little bit more objective about when I'm with this, these people, I end up here emotionally.

00:33:15:52 - 00:33:28:11
Michael Sullivant
Why is that? And when I'm with these people, and I would think this would really help, just knowing this, developing the right kind of relationship to would push you that way. Right? Yeah, yeah. Very good.

00:33:28:11 - 00:33:43:37
Joshua Hoffert
So we're going gonna when we have, Bishop Andrew on, we're going to have to have him see because the, the heart sink model has four distinct parts, right. You got your identity, you've got your function, you've got your emotion and your guardians. Which which he says roughly line up with the four layers of the brain as well.

00:33:43:41 - 00:34:05:13
Joshua Hoffert
And and so we'll have to have him see if he can speak into that. Also in terms of how they approach that, synchronizing the four parts with Jesus. So that core right or true idea or true self can actually emerge and be forward with everything else working in line with that. It's very, you know, it's in a way it's very similar.

00:34:05:18 - 00:34:30:10
Joshua Hoffert
And it's a it's a beautiful thing when you actually see what is the, the, the language. When my wife was doing her psych degree, was was it actualization, a fully actualized person? Is that what do I can't I think that was the terminology. When you see them, you go, there's something different about them. And I, I'm, you know, like you said with Dallas Willard, I want to be around this person.

00:34:30:14 - 00:34:50:22
Joshua Hoffert
And, I something about when I'm around them just makes me feel more like myself. I actually think when it comes to prophetic ministry that that and and, like Marina, I have a friend, named Steve and, Steve Schroeder. He's been on the, on the podcast many times, actually. He tried calling me while we were talking.

00:34:50:27 - 00:35:14:41
Joshua Hoffert
And I find that when I'm around Steve, who really is truly an apostolic overseer to a whole bunch of, pastors and leaders across Canada, and, and he's the kind of apostolic guy who would never call himself apostolic, you know, the best kind. And I, I find that when you're around someone like that, that prophetic ministry can flourish because it feels so safe.

00:35:14:46 - 00:35:23:04
Joshua Hoffert
And I feel like, oh, I can I, I like this joke that there's no, there's nothing I can say that Steve can't fix.

00:35:23:08 - 00:35:24:35
Michael Sullivant
Yes.

00:35:24:40 - 00:35:49:54
Joshua Hoffert
Right. When you have that kind of influence in your life, prophetic ministry becomes so much safer, so much more robust, so much more helpful. Because I'm because one, I'm also modeling that that father son dynamic that I see in there. Right. And I'm going, oh, I'm learning from him and I'm learning from that person. And now I actually sets a safe, a safe standard for what this looks like.

00:35:49:58 - 00:36:10:04
Joshua Hoffert
And and I really think that, that, you know, the, the church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets and all that. And I think it has more to do with what you're talking about in terms of modeling and people behind the firewall to influence me, than it has to do with charge forth for the kingdom and plant churches.

00:36:10:12 - 00:36:39:04
Joshua Hoffert
Functional title I up the stonework. Oh, I'm looking at it going this, this if, if even if implemented on 50% would produce a healthier, version of the spiritual gifts than what we, you know, what we've seen to date anyway. And, you know, there's certain places where I love, I think it was Graham Cook who said what they used to do was every every new person went headphones or chicken in and out.

00:36:39:16 - 00:36:57:49
Joshua Hoffert
Every new person that came into their church and their church was relatively small at this point. I think this was still in who was in England? They would they would, they would bring them in, prophesy over them, record that, then follow up with them over the next year about how, you know, how are things going, how do you feel about that?

00:36:57:49 - 00:37:15:04
Joshua Hoffert
How are we working that out? So it was a community thing together, and they were walking the person on the journey that they had all discerned from the Lord. And in a way, you, like Mary and I, have looked at this, you can look back at the early church documents and go, you know, the the new person that comes in, they should meet with the bishop.

00:37:15:04 - 00:37:33:21
Joshua Hoffert
The bishop should seek the word, seek the Lord for this person and pray for them. And they should. If there's any words that are shared, the community should hear. They should seek this. Like you see this stuff and you're like kind of how they used to do it. And and so I'm, I'm just loving hearing the principles.

00:37:33:26 - 00:37:40:09
Joshua Hoffert
So, anything else, Murray, that you want to heal? Sorry. Oh. That one.

00:37:40:14 - 00:37:43:55
Michael Sullivant
I want to dive in here and let's, put some boots on the ground to this, and and let's.

00:37:43:55 - 00:37:44:26
Joshua Hoffert
Do it.

00:37:44:31 - 00:37:45:41
Michael Sullivant
If I so means to me.

00:37:45:48 - 00:37:52:54
Joshua Hoffert
And 5 or 10 minutes, Michael, just to run us through maybe 1 or 2 exercises so that people can go, oh, that's what that's like.

00:37:52:54 - 00:37:53:53
Michael Sullivant
Yeah, that would be wonderful.

00:37:53:58 - 00:37:55:37
Joshua Hoffert
And maybe we'll end with that.

00:37:55:42 - 00:38:23:10
Michael Sullivant
I think we'll do one that's quick. You know, okay. And simple. This is, this is another way to calm the amygdala. You've got the physical things that you can do, yawning, intentional breathing, tapping your vagus nerve is another thing you can do. So, yeah. And, and then tensing all of your muscles from head to toe and relaxed, tense and relaxed, tense and relaxed all the way down.

00:38:23:15 - 00:38:47:48
Michael Sullivant
Those are the physical things that you can do. But then there's a devotional, thing that you can do to calm yourself and self calming is that skill. It's a brain skill in some people never learn it. It is the leading predictor of mental health throughout your whole life span, as if you've learned to to calm yourself. So, so let's do a devotional one.

00:38:47:48 - 00:39:13:55
Michael Sullivant
It's real simple. So will all three of us do it? Okay. Okay. You can. If it's taking a little time, you can edit out the parts that are taking time for the audience later, but, it won't take very long at all. So each one of us think about something, that you are sincerely grateful for. Sincerely grateful for.

00:39:13:59 - 00:39:24:26
Michael Sullivant
Like, like, oh, thank you, Lord so much. So I just landed on mine. Let me know when you got yours.

00:39:24:31 - 00:39:25:27
Joshua Hoffert
I got mine.

00:39:25:32 - 00:39:46:03
Michael Sullivant
Okay? You got yours. Okay. So now we let's go ahead and share with each other in the audience. So mine is I fell when I was on vacation and I should have hurt myself really badly, and I didn't. That's my gratitude.

00:39:46:08 - 00:39:46:43
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00:39:46:48 - 00:39:49:08
Michael Sullivant
All right.

00:39:49:13 - 00:39:50:23
Joshua Hoffert
Or, you know.

00:39:50:25 - 00:40:15:50
Michael Sullivant
Mine is, my my son, who lives here with us. His is out working as I'm in here and, and, he just needs a place and and, I am so thankful he's a place where he can be. It makes me very thankful. Oh, you're tearing up in your gratitude already. Beautiful. Thank you. Ma'am. All right, go ahead.

00:40:15:50 - 00:40:30:04
Joshua Hoffert
Josh, mine is the the story I shared with you before we, before the podcast about seeing Mount Rushmore with my family, and and just how meaningful that was. I was so grateful for that moment with my family and with the Lord.

00:40:30:09 - 00:40:56:39
Michael Sullivant
And and so you've already gone to the next step of the exercise, Josh, with yours, which is now interact with God around the the, the gratitude and listen for his response to your gratitude. So, Lord, I'm so thankful for. And he says, oh, yeah. And says something back to you, whispers something back to you. He's already done that for you, Josh, but maybe he'll say something more.

00:40:56:44 - 00:41:22:34
Michael Sullivant
Lord, is there anything more you want to say about that? Okay, so that's your your assignment. So so let's take a moment and just listen for his response to our gratitude. What does he think or feel about your gratitude to him is the question.

00:41:22:39 - 00:41:26:52
Michael Sullivant


00:41:26:56 - 00:41:33:48
Michael Sullivant
Let me know when you've got your response. Yeah, I've got mine.

00:41:33:53 - 00:41:41:49
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. I'm good.

00:41:41:53 - 00:42:17:56
Michael Sullivant
Thank you. Laura. Yeah. To go. So mine is very, very clearly came back to me. Michael. That was a that was an attack from the devil. And I protected you, from something terrible. To preserve you and to let you know that I'm right there with you. Amen. Every situation of life. So that's mine.

00:42:18:06 - 00:42:21:27
Joshua Hoffert
And. And he knew that we needed you on the podcast, so.

00:42:21:41 - 00:42:26:42
Michael Sullivant
Yeah. I can show you. I don't know if you want to show this on the.

00:42:26:46 - 00:42:28:04
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, wow. Oh, wow.

00:42:28:05 - 00:42:44:24
Michael Sullivant
That was pretty recent. That's where I hit the wall. Could have been my head. Oh, my. Wow. I ducked my head instinctively, and I felt God's arms around me and my shoulder hit instead of my head. Wow.

00:42:44:29 - 00:42:46:04
Joshua Hoffert
Wow.

00:42:46:09 - 00:42:52:25
Michael Sullivant
That looks pretty recent. Do a setup a few days ago. Amazing. Holy smokes.

00:42:52:29 - 00:43:11:53
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. I, I mean, I was thanking him for the moment, and I, I felt like he said right back to me. I'm so grateful that you waited. And grateful that you waited for me. So that was. That was what I heard him say.

00:43:11:58 - 00:43:23:01
Michael Sullivant
Yeah. Somewhere in Scripture. It's gotta be there somewhere where God says thank you. Because people hear him say that to them. Yeah. So often. Yeah.

00:43:23:06 - 00:43:24:03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00:43:24:08 - 00:43:51:28
Michael Sullivant
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. My mind for my son is, Thank you for seeing him. And, he would be. He's so very, very shy. Has same anxiety issues where he being with people is it's difficult for him. So. And I just felt like the Lord said yeah you're you're valuing what I value. Thank you for seeing that. No, that was my heart you're seeing.

00:43:51:28 - 00:44:24:04
Michael Sullivant
Thank you for seeing that. Yeah. There you go. To. So now we'll end by just, What is the face of God that is shining down upon us? In other words, he's the God who or he's the God of right. And it's a facet of his nature that he's revealing to us through our gratitude and his response to it.

00:44:24:09 - 00:44:33:54
Michael Sullivant
So mine is he's the God who is always with us.

00:44:33:59 - 00:44:45:05
Michael Sullivant
Amen. Or with me. He's the God who's always with me.

00:44:45:10 - 00:45:12:37
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, mine. Mine is, you know, there's a reason behind this, I think, is I'm just. What I see is he's the God who is so personal. And, you know, I think on, on some level, one of the things that hits me about how he responds to me about the memory is, you know, because of what he said in the first place is this is going to be prophetic, right?

00:45:12:37 - 00:45:35:17
Joshua Hoffert
There was a tendency to depersonalize it as well. It's prophecy. And I'm realizing that, no, no, actually, it's intensely personal, in some level. And writing about it, I, I because I just went to that, I depersonalized that and this is personal and intimate. And so I'm seeing the God who is personal. Yeah.

00:45:35:19 - 00:45:58:47
Michael Sullivant
So so that's kind of a new, a new feature is come. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just us do interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah yeah yeah. And mine is the statement would be I put the lonely in families and, but that's interesting, you know, that that triggers other things in me, which is quite fascinating, you know, like, oh, what are we talking about here?

00:45:58:47 - 00:46:43:30
Michael Sullivant
Exactly. So, you know, that's rolling into some other things, which is really wonderful, actually. Yeah. And so, Lord, we thank you for, receiving our thanks and our gratitude. And we are grateful that you have responded to us and that you're showing your face to us, or maybe more than one face, showing us faces, facets of your amazing nature to secure us, to let us know again that you love us so deeply and that you're glad to be with us and that you want to be our friend.

00:46:43:35 - 00:46:51:11
Michael Sullivant
Thank you, father. Yes, Lord. Amen. Amen. Well, that was wonderful. That was. That was the. Yeah. That's.

00:46:51:23 - 00:46:52:49
Joshua Hoffert
So that's the price of admission.

00:46:52:58 - 00:46:55:49
Michael Sullivant
To the amygdala, to comet.

00:46:55:54 - 00:47:09:56
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Right. So yeah. So that would be now, correct me if I'm wrong now, because one of the things you do sometimes with, with, an exercise like that is how you name the memory or name the moment.

00:47:10:00 - 00:47:10:12
Michael Sullivant


00:47:10:19 - 00:47:37:09
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Yeah. And that's another, another variation. And then you can go right back to that place when, when you know some you're, you experience sadness or anger to, to help find that connection back with the father. Oh that's right I remember that place right. Anyway, so this this is something people can do on their own. Like you don't have to have Michael Solar want.

00:47:37:14 - 00:47:40:04
Joshua Hoffert
But but it's good to have Michael sort of like.

00:47:40:06 - 00:47:44:14
Michael Sullivant
Yeah. And the resources there that they have to go even deeper.

00:47:44:19 - 00:47:46:22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Absolutely. And so those.

00:47:46:26 - 00:47:47:27
Michael Sullivant
Are holding people in that.

00:47:47:27 - 00:48:09:10
Joshua Hoffert
What I hope for any listener is that they would take, even the simple exercises that you shared about breathing techniques and tensing and calming the muscles, because a lot I mean, people deal with overwhelming, overwhelming amounts of anxiety today. And so here's some simple ways of trying to calm the nervous system and connect with the father's heart and rebalance yourself.

00:48:09:10 - 00:48:12:57
Joshua Hoffert
So we get to that place of being synchronized. And,

00:48:13:02 - 00:48:29:41
Michael Sullivant
And, and that took us, you know, each of us, maybe we spent five minutes in our, in our atmosphere of gratitude. Right. Five minutes, three times a day for 30 days resets your brain to a new normal.

00:48:29:51 - 00:48:31:00
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. Right.

00:48:31:01 - 00:48:34:50
Michael Sullivant
That is much more joy and much more peace.

00:48:34:55 - 00:48:45:51
Joshua Hoffert
Wow. Right. So five exercises like that, or three, three exercises like that five times a day for 30 days now.

00:48:46:04 - 00:48:48:42
Michael Sullivant
Three exercises a day for five minutes each.

00:48:48:42 - 00:49:16:43
Joshua Hoffert
There we go. There we go. Yeah. Sorry. That's why I got to clarify it. Three exercises a day. Five minutes each. 30 days. Helps the brain come back to that place about. So now we're talking about walking in that synchronization and maintaining that synchronization and getting back into that place of being synchronized. And I and that creates a map for your brain to get back there when you experience the big emotions.

00:49:16:54 - 00:49:18:20
Joshua Hoffert
Now I've got the resources I've got.

00:49:18:22 - 00:49:35:01
Michael Sullivant
It gets you. It gets your brain. It gets your brain to a place it's never been before. For many people. Right. Let's go through all of those three stages again, if you don't mind. Yeah. And I keep thinking of Monty Python because with George. 2 to 5. No, 3 to 3, like you just did that it was all done.

00:49:35:02 - 00:49:57:18
Michael Sullivant
So it's important that, No. That's right. So thankfulness. And what would you call get in your heart thankfulness. Stage two was just briefly in, in a, in two sentences. What would you how what does God think or feel about what you just said to him? Yeah. Yeah. What does God think or feel? What you just said to him.

00:49:57:23 - 00:50:03:56
Michael Sullivant
Okay. And number three, show me your phase or facet of yourself here. Got it. Just put that in there.

00:50:03:56 - 00:50:04:12
Joshua Hoffert
Okay.

00:50:04:16 - 00:50:05:23
Michael Sullivant
Get in there.

00:50:05:27 - 00:50:12:21
Joshua Hoffert
Get. What are you grateful for? And, what is his response to your gratefulness? His response?

00:50:12:26 - 00:50:13:10
Michael Sullivant
Relational. Look at.

00:50:13:10 - 00:50:36:07
Joshua Hoffert
Him. Yeah. And show me his heart. What facet of you, of you am I seeing in this or my learning about in this? Yeah. That's right. That's wonderful. Well, Michael, how so? You guys, you said as you step into the ambassador role, and you guys are, starting to put some time and effort into a ministry you guys started a number of years ago.

00:50:36:10 - 00:50:45:52
Joshua Hoffert
Is that how people would go about getting a hold of you from this? Like, what's the what's the ministry website? What's the name? Is there a way to do to connect there?

00:50:45:57 - 00:51:06:00
Michael Sullivant
The ministry website is Radius ministries.org. Okay. And and follow me on Facebook. Oh wonderful. Yeah. Like figure on Facebook. Just follow me and send me a personal message. Wonderful. Brilliant. Everybody. I hope if you want to go deeper with these things, let's do it.

00:51:06:04 - 00:51:28:32
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah that's right. And we'll put links to that stuff in the podcast description as well. And point people that way. So that's wonderful. Thanks so much for your time everyone that's tuned in and listen to this. Thanks so much for tuning in and for listening. And and we hope that you were greatly enriched as we chatted through these things and talked through these things, I think there was so much to unpack.

00:51:28:37 - 00:51:51:23
Joshua Hoffert
And again, as as with the last time you're on, it's like, I think we covered half maybe of what we had talked about. And so there's always more, you know. But yeah, that's the nature of any good conversation. Right? Is you talk deeply and there's so much more left unsaid. And so thanks so much. And Murray, it's always awesome spending time with you I love it.

00:51:51:28 - 00:52:13:27
Joshua Hoffert
You're you're one of my joy people that to your face. Well that's good. Your eyes are so expressive. It makes us so happy when, Yeah. There's joy. Exactly. So, everybody, we're gonna. Getting out. Yeah. It is your midnight getting out. Yeah, it's all the pierogis and the potatoes and the meats and all that. Yeah.

00:52:13:32 - 00:52:21:41
Joshua Hoffert
So, everybody, thanks for tuning in. And until next week, God bless.

00:52:21:45 - 00:52:23:35
Joshua Hoffert
Sorry, I know you. You probably need to.