Giving Structure to the Spiritual Life Artwork

Voices from the Desert

In the early days of Christianity, men and women fled to the desert and became the wisest sages of their era. Voices from the Desert explores how the wisdom of Ancient Christianity applies to our modern world. Where do the streams of historic Christianity intersect with contemporary Christianity? And how do we come to know God deep in our heart? Join Joshua Hoffert and Murray Dueck for a deep dive into the mystics, union with God, patristic theology and what it all means in our modern world.

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Voices from the Desert

Giving Structure to the Spiritual Life

June 20, 2025 • Joshua Hoffert and Murray Dueck

Have you ever wondered how to point your life in a God-ward way? Murray and Josh are setting out on a series to cover a monastic document - "Ten Rules for the Spiritual Life" authored by the Orthodox monks in Nova Scotia, Canada at the Goosechase Monastery (https://www.goosechasemonastery.ca/index.html). In this episode, Murr and Josh introduce the document and cover the first two rules: Seek Self-Renunciation and Accept to Have No Results.

For more about Voices from the Desert, visit our Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/VoicesfromtheDesert

00;00;17;29 - 00;00;32;12
Joshua Hoffert
Because what happens is people go through circumstances and they end up bewildered and know, not understanding what's happened to them at all. And they just coast through life and eventually die. Right. This kind of structure wrestles control away from that.

00;00;32;14 - 00;00;32;25
Murray Dueck
Yes.

00;00;32;25 - 00;00;51;12
Joshua Hoffert
It points it in the right direction, and it ends up you realize how little control you actually have by taking that control back.

00;00;51;14 - 00;01;05;02
Murray Dueck
Welcome, everyone. Do voices. That's our bridge. 000. Boy. Little puppy. We're not sure about that.

00;01;05;02 - 00;01;11;29
Joshua Hoffert
How? Yeah. They're right. Right, right. That's right. You know, I had an interesting thing happened yesterday.

00;01;12;01 - 00;01;20;05
Murray Dueck
That was a wrestler voiced by the. Yeah I apologize everybody I, I went straight. I was watching Macho Man Randy Savage in a clip the other day.

00;01;20;05 - 00;01;43;14
Joshua Hoffert
And I actually, you know what I, I but I had a, I have a friend who, he, he lives on the east coast of Canada, and we were talking about he's like a big thrifter reselling stuff, that kind of stuff. And so, you know that the kids and I, I mean, most people don't know this with the kids, and I do a bit of buying and selling sports cards and Pokemon cards.

00;01;43;14 - 00;02;09;12
Joshua Hoffert
Right? We have an eBay store and the kids have fun with it, and I have fun with them. Yeah. And, so anyway, I was chatting with this guy, back at the end of last year about just the different things that we've done and stuff like that. So they're a package arrived in the mail the other day, and he had totally put in, in some card protective sleeves, like 20 old.

00;02;09;14 - 00;02;27;06
Joshua Hoffert
They've got to be from the 80s sealed little tiny cards that are WWF wrestlers. And Macho Man Randy Savage was one of them. All right, this little tiny card, right? It's like, And so you just made me think about that. Is he? So he's he's for the kids. He thought they would like it, so.

00;02;27;06 - 00;02;34;03
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I like that. I don't know why I've been I've never been a big wrestler wrestling fan, but there was something about the way he did his persona that.

00;02;34;03 - 00;02;35;22
Joshua Hoffert
I could do a Slim Jim.

00;02;35;22 - 00;02;42;02
Murray Dueck
That's right. You know, double like a coffee. Oh, it sounds a little bit like Cletus.

00;02;42;04 - 00;02;44;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. You know. Yeah.

00;02;44;13 - 00;02;45;28
Murray Dueck
Sorry, everybody. I think you might call it.

00;02;45;28 - 00;02;50;11
Joshua Hoffert
I think the only one that eclipsed him would be Andre the Giant because of the Princess Bride, you know?

00;02;50;17 - 00;02;52;04
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Very true.

00;02;52;05 - 00;03;14;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So anyway, that's the. That's so I didn't experience the other day. What was I doing? I was, I was editing a podcast just for. So remember how this is like, you know, how if you look into a mirror that has a mirror behind you, there's like a thousand reflections?

00;03;15;00 - 00;03;15;16
Murray Dueck
That's right.

00;03;15;16 - 00;03;34;21
Joshua Hoffert
Experienced like that. Okay, so I was editing a podcast, and I don't know if you remember, a few weeks ago we recorded an episode and I had mentioned how I was editing a podcast, and Erin heard our introduction, and she's like, that's just so cheesy what you guys do. Right? So I was.

00;03;34;22 - 00;03;35;23
Murray Dueck
Is cheesy as.

00;03;35;24 - 00;03;36;18
Joshua Hoffert
Cheesy, but the.

00;03;36;22 - 00;03;44;28
Murray Dueck
Way we do it, because most of the time we have to be very there as minister. So to have a place where you can just write your hair down is like.

00;03;45;01 - 00;04;07;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, you. So we're Coyote's write all the stuff. So so I'm at anyway I so I was editing the podcast where I made those comments. Right. And Erin was listening to it because she's in the room. And so she heard the intro and she heard my comments on her thoughts on the intro. So it was like the it was like the thousand mirrors, you know, it's like,

00;04;07;22 - 00;04;08;12
Murray Dueck
Look, you look in.

00;04;08;12 - 00;04;09;17
Joshua Hoffert
The mirror, so.

00;04;09;20 - 00;04;13;07
Murray Dueck
Oh, I would have loved to see Erin's face as she heard her own.

00;04;13;10 - 00;04;25;01
Joshua Hoffert
The. Wow. Yeah. So she was listening to me edit me, talking about her comments and listening to the thing that I was editing. It was like, oh, it was brilliant. Yeah, it's.

00;04;25;01 - 00;04;26;12
Murray Dueck
Like she'd say, or could you.

00;04;26;12 - 00;04;31;06
Joshua Hoffert
Reverse rolls her eyes? And yeah, this is like, it is cheesy. You know what it is?

00;04;31;11 - 00;04;32;18
Murray Dueck
I can totally picture that.

00;04;32;20 - 00;04;34;24
Joshua Hoffert
That's brilliant. It was funny. It was funny.

00;04;34;24 - 00;04;38;05
Murray Dueck
So that's like a little bit of, like a weird deja vu vu.

00;04;38;05 - 00;04;45;10
Joshua Hoffert
Wait, right. That was like, before. Yeah. So she heard me editing the original one that you heard me editing the comments that she made about the edit of the original one.

00;04;45;10 - 00;04;46;28
Murray Dueck
So. Wow. Yeah. So I.

00;04;46;28 - 00;04;50;23
Joshua Hoffert
Get this. I have to work this one somehow into that so we can get.

00;04;50;25 - 00;04;58;26
Murray Dueck
Oh, yeah, you heard me editing the other editing of the one of the little bit. Yeah, that's for editing. Was it? Oh my goodness.

00;04;58;29 - 00;05;03;05
Joshua Hoffert
Our brain is spinning. It's a sci fi. Yeah. Yeah that's right.

00;05;03;11 - 00;05;05;15
Murray Dueck
So oh man you got to do it. You got to do it.

00;05;05;18 - 00;05;05;28
Joshua Hoffert
I'll do it.

00;05;05;28 - 00;05;12;02
Murray Dueck
Just to be able to tell all the listeners that that actually happened. Yeah. Self-fulfilling prophecy. Yeah. That's true everyone.

00;05;12;05 - 00;05;40;28
Joshua Hoffert
Well, you know, I everybody, welcome to, Marie and Josh rambling, but I think, I think when people by the time people hear this episode that we're presently recording, they probably would have listened to, Michael solo Mont and Father Andrew, the Bishop. Andrew. Right. Yeah. Because those will be the next four ish episodes that come with actually, the Bishop Andrew might end up being more because we talked to him for so long.

00;05;41;03 - 00;05;42;11
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that was so.

00;05;42;16 - 00;06;09;13
Joshua Hoffert
So we're kind of now in a way with the because those guys both talked about formation, healing all of that. Right. And it was and we went a deep dive into that. And now we're coming back around and we're going to talk about this this document that I picked up from my friends in Nova Scotia and what it gives a structure for the spiritual life.

00;06;09;13 - 00;06;37;27
Joshua Hoffert
Because, you know, when we're talking with Michael Sullivans, we're talking about spiritual practices that produce healing. When we're talking with Bishop Andrew, we're talking about, spiritual counseling practices that help people reintegrate the heart with Jesus. And now when we're looking at this, we're talking about individual practices that help structure the spiritual life. So that so it creates good ground for life to flourish.

00;06;37;27 - 00;06;39;13
Murray Dueck
Right? Yeah. Good. Well-Said.

00;06;39;18 - 00;07;08;07
Joshua Hoffert
And and so I, I've, I rediscovered this document about a week ago and have been, reflecting on it every day in my, you know, my, my morning time that I set aside and, anyway, so the document in question is called, communion with Jesus Christ. The daily agenda. And there's and it's, lists on it, among other things.

00;07;08;07 - 00;07;38;17
Joshua Hoffert
But the primary bulk of it is ten rules of the spiritual life. And that are to guide the daily agenda. Right. And, a number of a number of well, I guess it was maybe it was the last time I was able to go out there was two years ago. There's, a monastery in a place called New Germany in Nova Scotia that I've visited a few different times to do a spiritual retreat, and I got to know the monks there, there.

00;07;38;22 - 00;07;59;05
Joshua Hoffert
It's a Orthodox monastery. I. And just for our Catholic friends, I visited Catholic friends monasteries and have done retreats there. The problem with the Catholic monastery I tended to go to was that it was Trappist. So they don't they have, the Trappist take of a I think it's a vow or a practice of a limited, limiting their words.

00;07;59;08 - 00;08;01;23
Joshua Hoffert
So you won't really spend a whole lot of time talking with.

00;08;01;23 - 00;08;03;19
Murray Dueck
Them while they're making very good beer.

00;08;03;21 - 00;08;07;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. That's true. And jam, I actually really. Oh, jam.

00;08;07;14 - 00;08;08;23
Murray Dueck
Why? No, no.

00;08;08;25 - 00;08;36;28
Joshua Hoffert
So anyway, I got to know the the monks at New Germany quite well, spending time with them and having meals with them. I actually have a recording on my phone of them singing Happy Birthday to my son because it was beautiful. Yeah. It was. Yeah. And, so the abbot of the monastery there is a little old Frenchman named Father Luke who has been a, a monk most of his life.

00;08;37;01 - 00;08;38;25
Murray Dueck
Wow. How old would you say he is? Yeah, I did know.

00;08;38;29 - 00;08;41;00
Joshua Hoffert
Probably in his 80s, I would guess.

00;08;41;02 - 00;08;45;22
Murray Dueck
Is he. You know, it's it's funny. We've talked about it a lot, but I've always pictured him in his 50s for some reason. No, no.

00;08;45;22 - 00;09;06;19
Joshua Hoffert
No, he could be in the 70s, but he I would I would guess, if it's 70s, it's older 70s. Wow. Maybe 80s. And and so he just, just and they don't really track age as much as, you know, we normally would. I think they'd look at the age of birth as the day they enter the monastery.

00;09;06;21 - 00;09;07;28
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Interesting.

00;09;07;28 - 00;09;29;15
Joshua Hoffert
It's just a, you know, totally different wave of thinking. So anyway, Father Luke is the abbot of the monastery in New German, New Germany, and, the, the Hermitage. What is it? The Hermitage of the Annunciation, I think, is what it's called.

00;09;29;18 - 00;09;29;29
Murray Dueck

00;09;30;29 - 00;09;55;15
Joshua Hoffert
And and that's there actually a whole documentary on them on YouTube there. Guy went and did a 45 minute, he visited them, recorded the services, interviewed them. Just a really beautiful thing. And it's, it's a beautiful location place where they're set up. So if you ever have the opportunity to visit and say hi, they have a book store and everything, you can buy books and resources and all of that.

00;09;55;17 - 00;10;14;26
Joshua Hoffert
So anyway, at the at the monastery, they have these pamphlets that Father Luke has put together and the whole maybe all of the probably all of the people there had a hand in that. But of all the people there, there's three of them. And they have a sister monastery, from what I understand. Just north of you, I think.

00;10;14;26 - 00;10;16;17
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Yeah. Lone.

00;10;16;17 - 00;10;17;10
Murray Dueck
Butte.

00;10;17;13 - 00;10;24;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So, it's not like there's, monasteries aplenty all over the place, so.

00;10;24;17 - 00;10;26;04
Murray Dueck
Yeah. No, not in Canada.

00;10;26;04 - 00;10;50;23
Joshua Hoffert
And no, not in Canada. Yeah. So if you go to different places. So anyway, I picked this up. Yeah. Because I was it was fascinating in its simplicity. And I thought, hey, like this is a great, and in fact, actually, I have on the bookshelf behind me, I have I think I gave it a copy to you as well, a booklet that Father Luke wrote up about lectio divina and.

00;10;50;23 - 00;10;52;28
Murray Dueck
Yes, reading. Yes, yes, yes, I do have that somewhere.

00;10;53;04 - 00;11;04;24
Joshua Hoffert
Which is a fantastic booklet which you can find on their website as well. I would love to go out there and interview Father Luke for like 17 hours straight.

00;11;04;25 - 00;11;07;16
Murray Dueck
Yeah, well, let's hope that happens. Maybe let it.

00;11;07;16 - 00;11;13;17
Joshua Hoffert
Be. Maybe. I approached him one time about doing that and they said they don't. That's not their vocation. So.

00;11;13;17 - 00;11;14;01
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;11;14;03 - 00;11;14;22
Joshua Hoffert
Well anyway.

00;11;14;25 - 00;11;15;16
Murray Dueck
Understandable.

00;11;15;17 - 00;11;48;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Anyway, so so I, I recently rediscovered the document and thought this pamphlet and thought, hey, like, you know, this would be a great thing to, for Murray and I to dissect, and it would give some good, some good thoughts about when it comes to discipleship rhythms, how people grow. It would be great to just kind of let these let the ten, the ten step program of Father Luke.

00;11;48;14 - 00;12;15;21
Joshua Hoffert
But he'd probably be mortified that we were talking about it. But they do handed out freely. Yes. And, so, anyway, I, I, I think when you meet, when you meet someone and just their, the presence of you just look at them and you just go, this person knows Jesus. Yeah. That doesn't mean that everything they say is perfect because they're still human, right?

00;12;15;24 - 00;12;48;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. I've had lots of conversations with Father Luke about spiritual gifts and prophecy and, and I go, okay, maybe we could rethink that. But as it pertains to knowing Jesus and living a spiritual life, the dude has the market cornered in terms of, you know, when you meet him, soft, tender. You know, one of those I actually, I had a friend, we I went I brought a friend with me one time just to come visit and say hi.

00;12;48;07 - 00;13;13;17
Joshua Hoffert
Happened to be in the area. And after we left, my friend said to me, I didn't think the monks were going to be so funny. Right. He was thinking, you're serious. But they were jovial and lighthearted. It's like, oh yeah, that's actually you know, the the part of the monastic expression when you read the especially when you read the Desert Fathers, you start getting these little snippets.

00;13;13;19 - 00;13;20;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah. You're like, actually these guys had quite the sense of humor, you know, and, oh, when.

00;13;20;03 - 00;13;23;22
Murray Dueck
You're living in continual joy all the time, it does tend to. Yeah.

00;13;23;23 - 00;13;24;11
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;13;24;13 - 00;13;48;13
Murray Dueck
And, I yeah, it's it's funny, you know, that you would you would think that it would be the other way. But, you know, when they don't have the cares of life in so many areas and they're spending time and, yes, unburdened. Yeah. Spending time in the, in the presence of the Lord. It seems to produce that which which you would know better than me because you've hung out with them.

00;13;48;13 - 00;14;00;07
Murray Dueck
I mean, I've read about it, and of course, I know, you know, again, you know, sorry, father Mike, but, which.

00;14;00;07 - 00;14;01;07
Joshua Hoffert
We've got on the podcast to.

00;14;01;07 - 00;14;07;19
Murray Dueck
Read about it and, and for you to say that it's, it's quite, it's quite brilliant. It's so opposite than what you would think. Yeah.

00;14;07;21 - 00;14;30;26
Joshua Hoffert
They're up early in the morning. They do an hour of, lectio divina than an hour of the Jesus Prayer. And then they have their first service, I think at 445 or 4 30 or 5 or something, and that lasts for about an hour. Then they have breakfast and then they go to work in the garden. And so they have a very structured life in that sense.

00;14;30;26 - 00;14;52;18
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And rhythms of prayer. And they always have their prayer beads with them. And they're, they're using a, a prayer rope typically, so anyway, you know, there's, there's a beauty in the simplicity of it. And, and we always say not everybody's vocation is to be that. But there's definitely people I was chatting with Erin about there.

00;14;52;19 - 00;15;03;11
Joshua Hoffert
So I think there's definitely people who's who who probably are called to that and have missed it because it's not in not in their context, but in their culture. Right. And which is, you.

00;15;03;11 - 00;15;18;13
Murray Dueck
Know, it's it's interesting, just a quick little aside here, that it's because I've talked about this with people recently that, you know, when you look at that verse, Elijah was a man like us in James. So you, you know, we all know that verse. I think as, as people who want to hear God's voice, why do you as a man like us?

00;15;18;13 - 00;15;39;27
Murray Dueck
And he prayed and it did not rain for, what, three and a half years ago? Read again and it rained. Right? I mean, you're taking the most prolific prophetic guy, you know, who really represents the prophetic movement. He had periods with Jesus and Moses, you know, I mean, and you're comparing him to the average New Testament Christian. I mean, this is this is a big deal.

00;15;39;29 - 00;15;44;19
Joshua Hoffert
The spirit of prophecy in the spirit of Elijah basically become synonymous in Scripture.

00;15;44;21 - 00;15;49;29
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And but if you're looking at the context of it, it's prayer.

00;15;50;01 - 00;15;50;16
Joshua Hoffert
And. Yeah.

00;15;50;24 - 00;16;10;19
Murray Dueck
And for that being the case, to think about how really little training as evangelicals and charismatics we do in prayer, and, and, you know, here's this group of people, they spent 20 or 30 years in monasteries praying because it's a big deal. Prayer. Right. And then we're like, why do these guys do this? Like, that doesn't make any sense.

00;16;10;25 - 00;16;35;14
Murray Dueck
Well, because Elijah was a man like us and he prayed, right? I mean, and we just kind of skip over that, which is too bad because, I do think that the major number when calling of the New Testament church is, is prayer, pray without ceasing. I mean, there's there's not a lot of other verses. So I it's to see it in a context where you meet these people and they're happy and they pray and they have a rhythm.

00;16;35;14 - 00;16;56;05
Murray Dueck
It's it's a beautiful thing. As somebody who is, evangelical, charismatic and going, wow, you know, and there are people like in our culture, as you just said, that I could say, you know what? It might not be in our culture, but you can take inspiration from these people that God has called you to something, and you have a gift and you should pursue this, you know?

00;16;56;07 - 00;17;03;20
Murray Dueck
Yeah, you really should, because prayer is the number when garlic and, absolutely.

00;17;03;22 - 00;17;29;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, absolutely. It is. It's because prayer. You know what? That actually just even toilet peeling that back. The word for prayer in the New Testament in the Greek is the Greek word priest. Manos. And it means to set your desire and affection towards something. That's basically because it means to to point yourself somewhere and to express your, your desire, your, your affection, you know.

00;17;29;03 - 00;17;37;04
Joshua Hoffert
So prayer. Yeah. I didn't know that. That's essentially what it means when you boil down the, the two words that are it's a compound word.

00;17;37;07 - 00;17;38;09
Murray Dueck
So say that word one more time.

00;17;38;10 - 00;17;39;23
Joshua Hoffert
Price Domino's.

00;17;39;25 - 00;17;43;22
Murray Dueck
Wow. So as a Mennonite, I really like this word, because.

00;17;43;25 - 00;17;44;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I.

00;17;44;11 - 00;17;45;13
Murray Dueck
Am a man. Yeah.

00;17;45;13 - 00;17;50;01
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Priest Manos or manos or something like. I'm pretty sure that's brilliant.

00;17;50;02 - 00;17;51;06
Murray Dueck
I did not know this.

00;17;51;08 - 00;17;52;17
Joshua Hoffert
And yeah. So when I played.

00;17;52;17 - 00;17;53;29
Murray Dueck
In my day to learning this word move.

00;17;53;29 - 00;18;20;25
Joshua Hoffert
Your will or desire towards something. And the other one means to be in proximity to it. It's something like that. Wow. Yeah. So said to set your desire and affection in a particular place which which is less about a petition, although that's part of it. That's more about a being with. Right. As I put my desire and affection towards something which is the father that's prayer is moving in my desire and affection towards him.

00;18;20;27 - 00;18;48;04
Joshua Hoffert
And and we see that echoed throughout Christian history when it comes to people that really caught the essence of that. Yeah, talk about that. And they and they write about that and, and even contemporaries, you know, looking at like someone like Richard Foster, Dallas Willard, they really do that in their teaching is the desire setting the desire or affection towards the father in a, in a means which makes him real and present in your life.

00;18;48;06 - 00;19;02;06
Murray Dueck
You know, with that, I'm going to quote that, you know, I read it before, but I just it's such a good quote and it's out of a Catholic book. Everybody called thirsting for prayer by Jack Philip. I don't know anything about him other than I happened to be at this monastery. And I was like, oh, that's an interesting book.

00;19;02;06 - 00;19;25;19
Murray Dueck
So I bought it. And, you know, as I geek out on church history, he, he quotes this, nun and, and I just love this quote in this, and I have to look up who she is, but, Saint Marie of the Trinity. Okay? God called her to a life of total, gratuitous prayer, which they're using that word very different.

00;19;25;22 - 00;19;54;07
Murray Dueck
Wasting your life on in a beautiful way of adoration and pure receptivity. God told her it's easier to find laborers to work than children to play. Oh, right. Think about prayer like that. And, and, and again, you know, on the next page, he says, prayer gives us a foretaste of heaven and lets us glimpse and savor a happiness that is not of this world, and that nothing here below can give us a happiness in God for which we are destined, for which we are created.

00;19;54;07 - 00;20;16;15
Murray Dueck
Yes, we do encounter struggles, suffering, and aridity in our prayer lives. And in brackets he goes, I'll come back to that. But if we preserve persevere faithfully in prayer, we taste from time to time at inexpressible happiness, a degree of peace and fulfillment that are a real foretaste of Paradise. You will see heaven opened. Jesus has promised us nice.

00;20;16;18 - 00;20;22;16
Murray Dueck
That's a great definition of prayer. But in back to the words that you just said a minute ago, that's his purpose.

00;20;22;18 - 00;20;56;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I'm just looking up the roof. The word itself and. Yeah, to to to set your wish or will towards something. Right sent. Yeah. So to set your desire towards which is what that is and and we're and we find so much when someone has this is this all voices from the desert is all about right is someone who has walked through the the wasteland, the interior wasteland and discovered the great terror reformer, the spirit.

00;20;56;21 - 00;20;57;26
Murray Dueck

00;20;57;28 - 00;21;19;05
Joshua Hoffert
And whose absolutely trans rights are in prayer because Mal, my desire, my affection is pointed somewhere and it begins to form me. And that's what these ten rules are all about. I think when you read them, you get you catch the image of a man in someone like Father Luke, who's who's gone. This is how I've discovered to put my desired affection there.

00;21;19;08 - 00;21;20;14
Joshua Hoffert
Hey, man. Right. Yeah.

00;21;20;15 - 00;21;24;11
Murray Dueck
And to know that he's been doing this for 30 years or.

00;21;24;11 - 00;21;26;05
Joshua Hoffert
More in a way longer than that. Yeah, it's.

00;21;26;12 - 00;21;33;22
Murray Dueck
Like this is what he discovered. Okay, well, let's do it. Let's jump in here and, and, and look at these things because this is great.

00;21;33;28 - 00;21;45;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And so and just, for those who that are listening to what we're going to do, I flash this on the video here. But the only people that will see that are the Patreon subscribers. So,

00;21;45;15 - 00;21;51;28
Murray Dueck
And just so you know, how Patreon subscribers, Josh and I did a good half an hour before that, as you know.

00;21;52;01 - 00;21;54;27
Joshua Hoffert
Talking about all kinds of controversial things.

00;21;55;00 - 00;21;56;19
Murray Dueck
We kind of got into it. So, yeah.

00;21;56;21 - 00;21;57;01
Joshua Hoffert
So,

00;21;57;03 - 00;21;58;14
Murray Dueck
Join us on Patreon, everybody.

00;21;58;15 - 00;22;13;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, the Patreon all the link will be in the episode description. So, our Patreon describer subscribers get access to the video content, get the pre conversations and exclusive things like that. So I'm going to put this up on our Patreon.

00;22;13;13 - 00;22;14;03
Murray Dueck
Oh, brilliant.

00;22;14;03 - 00;22;23;17
Joshua Hoffert
So if you're interested then that's like, you know, two coffees a month to join our Patreon. It's not like it's expensive and it supports us, right? Support.

00;22;23;17 - 00;22;27;09
Murray Dueck
Yeah. We really appreciate everybody's support to continue doing this. Absolutely.

00;22;27;09 - 00;22;29;01
Joshua Hoffert
So with that with.

00;22;29;03 - 00;22;29;22
Murray Dueck
Yes. Good.

00;22;29;23 - 00;22;36;21
Joshua Hoffert
No eating is good. Yeah. That's right. And you know, you got to support, Murray and the two new puppies there. So.

00;22;36;22 - 00;22;39;04
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that's. But just so you know, every time I look over.

00;22;39;07 - 00;22;42;08
Joshua Hoffert
Right, six dogs you have now, they're technically.

00;22;42;10 - 00;22;53;04
Murray Dueck
Yes. Yeah. So too many and 70 animals. We have this animal farm rescue, but. So I just just so, you know, when I'm not looking at you as we're doing this, I'm looking at the puppy. Oh, God.

00;22;53;07 - 00;22;54;16
Joshua Hoffert
I'm too, like, oh, God.

00;22;54;18 - 00;22;57;16
Murray Dueck
I'm not ignoring you. I'm just making sure they're not going to fall off this bed.

00;22;57;17 - 00;22;59;16
Joshua Hoffert
Well, they're super cute, so. Yeah.

00;22;59;17 - 00;23;06;16
Murray Dueck
Okay, just so you know what? I'm not I'm looking over there. I'm like, if you hear me get up and run, it's because they're crawling to the edge of the bed.

00;23;06;16 - 00;23;22;11
Joshua Hoffert
So there you go. But, okay, so what I'll do, what I'll do is first, I'll just read all ten points. Okay. And then we can because each point is also has a is broken into sub points. And so we can talk. We'll see how far we get talking to them all. We might have to make this multiple episodes.

00;23;22;17 - 00;23;23;15
Murray Dueck
Oh that would be wonderful.

00;23;23;20 - 00;24;00;26
Joshua Hoffert
So ten rules of the Spiritual life according to Father Luke from the Hermitage of the Annunciation in the in New Germany, Nova Scotia, okay. So rule number one, going through this. So number one, seek self renunciation to accept, to have no results. Three endurance and prayer for except to remain dry. Five trust six accept to remain in darkness and confusion seven be thankful all the time.

00;24;00;28 - 00;24;13;10
Joshua Hoffert
Eight Amen. Get purified and keep in check. Nine be vigilant and attentive ten have a prayer rule. So those are the rules, right?

00;24;13;12 - 00;24;19;17
Murray Dueck
And people right now are screaming, turning off their, podcast and running out the door as fast as I can.

00;24;19;20 - 00;24;30;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah that's right. But accept to remain in darkness and confusion. But we need God to speak to us and bring clarity. Right. Well, how's that working for you? Yeah. You know.

00;24;30;13 - 00;24;40;26
Murray Dueck
And, you know, we'll talk about that. Everybody like like, see, the thing is that anyway. Yeah, well, well that's not the first point. We'll just start with the first point, but we'll get there.

00;24;40;27 - 00;25;09;07
Joshua Hoffert
I want to say one thing. I, I, I suspect that, I'm not even suspect I'm convinced of this, that many contemporary prophets write quote unquote providence in prophetic ministry, commune with their own thoughts and then convey those thoughts as if they are the thoughts of God. And.

00;25;09;09 - 00;25;15;02
Murray Dueck
I'm sorry. I'm like, oh, God. It was, that was my maniac Bruce, freeze and laugh. I think I learned that from.

00;25;15;08 - 00;25;38;07
Joshua Hoffert
And it's not that those thoughts are abhorrent thoughts, it's just that they're not God thoughts. They're communing with your own thoughts. And so then when you say the Lord said this alerted this Lord to this, really what you're saying is your your opinions. And because you're communing with your own thoughts and thinking, oh, I you know, that was profound.

00;25;38;14 - 00;25;51;13
Joshua Hoffert
It's like, well, no, that's just what you're thinking about. And, and so, so, you know, then that ends up putting us, leading us into darkness and confusion because it's just our own opinions anyway.

00;25;51;14 - 00;25;53;14
Murray Dueck
Well, let me take a shot at this, too. Like, yes.

00;25;53;16 - 00;25;57;22
Joshua Hoffert
It's you can you can take a shot at it. Okay. You shouldn't have brought it up, but.

00;25;57;24 - 00;26;24;14
Murray Dueck
Well, it's on the it's on the list. And now that that we talked about it so yeah. You know everyone I, you know reading stuff like Dallas Willard here would be very good for everybody, and these guys. But let me just say that. If you look at how the heart functions in people. Right. And the effects of the fall, right back, you know, super quick, when you look back to Adam after the fall, you know, here, here is God, who is his best friend.

00;26;24;14 - 00;26;46;20
Murray Dueck
He's hiding from him now, right? And he's blame shifting the woman you put here with me, right? You know, like he's actually even blaming God, right? So mankind, you have to understand, there's a lot of brokenness in us that need healing, right? And let's just look at one guy super quick, like, super quick Abraham, super quick. I mean, because he's the father of faith.

00;26;46;22 - 00;27;07;05
Murray Dueck
So here's a guy with gifting and calling and destiny if there ever was. Right. So let's just because as charismatic gifting calling destiny when people talk about, you know Abraham, they go, you know, we have to have faith like Abraham. Okay. Sure. What we need is to have some darkness in our lives so we understand what's in our heart to become like Abraham.

00;27;07;08 - 00;27;32;29
Murray Dueck
Sure. Right. So. And I'll give it to you super quick, because, you know, part of the process of prayer is discovering what's really in you so God can transform it to be like him. Right? So, so here, just really quick. So it kind of works like this with a heart belief system value, emotion, decision behavior outcome. Right, right.

00;27;33;04 - 00;27;52;02
Murray Dueck
So so and you see this with Abraham again and again and again. So he's doing pretty good in some areas. He does leave his country. That's pretty good with Sarah. And but when it comes to like like Pharaoh tell her you're my sister so they don't kill me. So he he's having an emotional reaction, and then he's making a decision to give his wife away.

00;27;52;02 - 00;28;14;19
Murray Dueck
Who will be the, you know, mother of Nations to save his own skin. And he does that with Abimelech. He does that with Ishmael. He does that. But right at the end of his life, when God tells him to sacrifice Isaac, you know, Hebrews 11 says, and he thought God would raise him from the dead. 25 years in, he's having a different belief system.

00;28;14;19 - 00;28;37;06
Murray Dueck
God's going to raise him. He doesn't have to protect himself. He doesn't have to blame shift. He doesn't have to. He has peace. And he makes a decision to go through with the process. And then God says, now that I know you fear me because he's had fear is a life. Fear has been his driving thing. But you only discover what's in your heart sometimes through, like Abraham, through darkness.

00;28;37;06 - 00;29;03;03
Murray Dueck
What comes up? God wants to purify us and change us, so we become like him and this begins. And an attitude and a process of prayer that we begin a journey of inner transformation. And and when we talk about inner darkness, it doesn't mean that God is not there with us, loving on us, but it can mean we discover things about ourselves that can be scary.

00;29;03;03 - 00;29;18;07
Murray Dueck
That can be. People don't see me. People don't know me. What is my gifting? Where do I fit? How am I? Should I get out of this? And our brain is trying to run something which where we need to live in our hearts and be with God at rest?

00;29;18;10 - 00;29;18;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;29;18;22 - 00;29;44;19
Murray Dueck
That's right. And that process of inner transformation where the heart becomes a leading aspect of our being, rather than our brain trying to rescue us like Abraham did for 25 years. Right? There has to be this transformation. And so when we read these things and these seem a little bit scary, we have to realize the reason we experience it is to be set free and delivered from the knowledge of tree of Good and evil, and have our soul healed.

00;29;44;21 - 00;30;06;07
Murray Dueck
And this process of prayer transforms us into the image of Jesus. And, I remember Teresa of Avila saying she was, you know, I might get it a little bit wrong, and please forgive me if I do. She's on a horse somewhere going to a meeting and, and she falls off, falls into the river, if I'm not mistaken, it breaks her leg.

00;30;06;09 - 00;30;25;27
Murray Dueck
She goes, help God. And God says, I treat all my friends this way, a tree. So the Teresa of Avila goes, well, no wonder you have so few friends. But it's like it's a little bit scary. But, you know, maybe put it a little if that scares you a little bit more moderate. I remember Ken Blue, one of the vineyard guys.

00;30;25;29 - 00;30;41;22
Murray Dueck
He was at the CMA one year where Josh and I are at, and he was mad at God for years. Mad? I can't remember why, but probably ministry wasn't working out and things weren't working out in the churches and growing. And you have all these visions and promises. And then something happened and he just lost it on God.

00;30;41;22 - 00;30;54;23
Murray Dueck
He went for a walk and he just blasted it. Well, are you there? Are he gets through his rant and he finally shuts up. And the Lord says to him, are we still friends?

00;30;54;25 - 00;30;55;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;30;55;22 - 00;31;09;19
Murray Dueck
It's because it's like we have all these expectations of how it should work, right? Without realizing what comes up in the heart is actually in us and needs to come to peace and be purified and be changed.

00;31;09;21 - 00;31;10;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;31;10;10 - 00;31;21;12
Murray Dueck
And this process that Father Luke is laying out here helps this happen in prayer, that we work with God rather than resist the process. So it anyway it.

00;31;21;13 - 00;31;46;19
Joshua Hoffert
To it rests. It wrestles control fall away from the world and and because what happens is people go through circumstances and they end up bewildered and not understanding what's happening to them at all. And they just coast through life and eventually die. Right. This kind of structure wrestles control away from that. Yeah, actually points it in the right direction.

00;31;46;19 - 00;32;07;24
Joshua Hoffert
And it ends up you, you realize how little control you actually have by taking that control back. Right. And pointing it there. It's like in my household, we've we've just implemented, a, a lot more structure in our house with our kids. Right. And we were just looking at what we were doing and how we were navigating things.

00;32;07;25 - 00;32;18;28
Joshua Hoffert
We're just going, it doesn't work. It's just not working. It's not producing the desired results in our children. Now that they were bad or anything, but we just needed more structure. It was just easier to put a TV show on.

00;32;19;05 - 00;32;22;10
Murray Dueck
And so you got rid of that book by Doctor Spock, I guess. Yeah.

00;32;22;13 - 00;32;24;06
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Exactly.

00;32;24;08 - 00;32;27;27
Murray Dueck
This is a joke. Everybody says he does not read. Doctor Spock is.

00;32;28;00 - 00;33;01;14
Joshua Hoffert
So, so basically we implemented, you know, cleaning, cleaning routine. This is what you're responsible for. This is what you're responsible for, right? That kind of stuff. And what we're what we're doing is we are implementing a routine that helps to mature them. So they understand who they are, their responsibility for being human in this world. Yeah. So that when they're adults, they understand how to care for a house, how to navigate this together, what are their responsibilities, all of that.

00;33;01;14 - 00;33;08;22
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And it's not really all that different or dissimilar to the ten rules for the spiritual life is.

00;33;08;22 - 00;33;09;17
Murray Dueck
Very well said.

00;33;09;17 - 00;33;28;07
Joshua Hoffert
Here's your zone that you're responsible for in the House for this week. You're on poop dog poop duty today or you're on dishes today. These are the things that you need to be cleaned in your zone before any fun can be had. This is what this is the responsibility that you have, right? And it's not like their owner is right.

00;33;28;07 - 00;33;28;15
Joshua Hoffert
They don't.

00;33;28;18 - 00;33;43;22
Murray Dueck
They're just enough to transform the heart and take into maturity. And so learn how to learn how to listen and learn how to be, mature, learn how to. Yeah. And yeah, absolutely. It is with us.

00;33;43;25 - 00;34;02;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And so we we look at this. It's not, you know, some people go, oh, like, you know, I can just hear in the charismatic context. Well, it's not rules. It's spontaneous, you know, prayer, spontaneous intimacy, like, you know, blah, blah, blah, right? I'm like, no, what we're doing is we're taking control away from the lack of control.

00;34;02;19 - 00;34;17;20
Joshua Hoffert
And what what the the kind of chaos that is sown in everyday life and going, we're actually going to point growth in a particular direction. And these are simple. These are simple things to implement.

00;34;17;23 - 00;34;19;13
Murray Dueck
Well it's funny you know and again become.

00;34;19;13 - 00;34;20;21
Joshua Hoffert
Everything you know.

00;34;20;23 - 00;34;41;27
Murray Dueck
Yeah they become everything. And you know everybody you know go back and listen to previous episodes. I mean, we've covered, you know, a little bit of this so many times in our long episodes, which I really unfortunately, one of the things I very much dislike about, Facebook and things like this is that as, as we as charismatic think, what's the new revelation?

00;34;41;27 - 00;34;58;24
Murray Dueck
Where are we going? What's the new thing? You know, I think what happens is, is that we take old episodes and things and we don't go back to it where the treasure is, you know, like, and it's old now and it's like, no, it's not, it's it's it's just.

00;34;58;26 - 00;35;10;00
Murray Dueck
As anointed as it was the day, I mean. So please go back, everybody, and listen to, Yeah, unpack, spend more on some of the old episodes because they're great. You know, there's some good stuff back there, and.

00;35;10;04 - 00;35;21;10
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Yeah. I agree. Go back. Go back to go forward. Yeah. So rule number one okay.

00;35;21;14 - 00;35;22;00
Murray Dueck
Let's.

00;35;22;02 - 00;35;43;05
Joshua Hoffert
Seek self renunciation. Right. Big word there. Self renunciation. What does that mean. Right. Well here's the here's the three sub points to clarify. Seeking self renunciation. And it's it it I was thinking about in in light of beatitude number one.

00;35;43;07 - 00;35;45;05
Murray Dueck
Right.

00;35;45;07 - 00;35;58;24
Joshua Hoffert
Blessed are the poor in spirit, which is kind of what this is getting at self renunciation. These are the three points. Do not seek self-fulfillment. Like gasp right. Like that's that's modern culture is all about self-love.

00;35;58;24 - 00;35;59;14
Murray Dueck
Oh yeah.

00;35;59;16 - 00;36;16;00
Joshua Hoffert
That's the American dream right. To the joy and happiness for everyone. So do not seek self-fulfillment. Forget yourself. Right. And, and forget all that you call mine.

00;36;16;03 - 00;36;17;04
Murray Dueck
Boy, oh boy.

00;36;17;06 - 00;36;18;08
Joshua Hoffert
Right. I love.

00;36;18;08 - 00;36;19;03
Murray Dueck

00;36;19;05 - 00;36;22;18
Joshua Hoffert
I love. It's easier said than done.

00;36;22;20 - 00;36;24;23
Murray Dueck
Oh my goodness. It's not, it's not easy.

00;36;24;29 - 00;36;42;21
Joshua Hoffert
But when we look at Jesus and the instructions he gives to the disciples. Right. Take no thought for like this is like restating Matthew 16. No thought for yourself. You know, you do your thinking about what you're going to eat and what you're going to wear, but the father will clothe you. To seek his kingdom now takes care.

00;36;42;21 - 00;36;51;23
Joshua Hoffert
Creation will take care of you. And so don't, don't. What happens is we carve out a space and go, this is mine, and I must protect it and control it.

00;36;51;25 - 00;36;52;16
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;36;52;19 - 00;37;01;17
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And, and so this is my this is my little kingdom. Whether it's my house, my job, my ministry, whatever it happens to be.

00;37;01;20 - 00;37;26;16
Murray Dueck
You know? And it's funny, too. I mean, with when people go through the desert, which, you know, we we'll talk about that. But, you know, there's seasons in life, right? Seasons of favor, seasons of character, seasons of gifting and impartation. But it's funny when sometimes with favor, you know, when you have it, like when you're a prophetic person, people want you to pray for them or you musician, they want you on the stage, you know, or your speaker.

00;37;26;16 - 00;37;48;20
Murray Dueck
You get invitations with favor, right? But when in a season of character, nobody invites you to do anything right. If there's a there's other route. Yeah, that's for other musicians. And they're asked to play in the band and you're not, you know, you have leadership gifts, but no one's talking to you. And see, the thing isn't in the charismatic culture, what often happens is we go, nobody's seeing me for my gifting.

00;37;48;22 - 00;38;12;17
Murray Dueck
What happened? Why isn't anybody talking to me anymore? And we make it about the leadership's fault. Scripture doesn't look at it that way. Because favor is God given. God taken. Right? So God gave Joseph favor with the jailer, but also God hardened Pharaoh's heart, right? And he took favor away. And and the problem is when if we could look at life going, I don't have favor right now, Lord, you're working on my character.

00;38;12;24 - 00;38;13;16
Murray Dueck
Thank you.

00;38;13;22 - 00;38;14;09
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;38;14;11 - 00;38;39;21
Murray Dueck
I do a favor. Thank you. Lord. Now you're working on my gifting, that it's different seasons. But when we make our life about what we do and then we give external forces control over that, it really leaves us to be a victim either to what we perceive other people think about us, right? Or what we deserve because it's about our identity comes from our gift or ability being seen instead of becoming.

00;38;39;23 - 00;39;04;24
Murray Dueck
And so when favors removed, we need to really see that as a blessing from God, because now he's working on our heart so that the comments of I me mind, that's my calling. I should be seen. Why doesn't anybody want to work with me? You know, you know, this is this is, the fall. This is Adam. After eating the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

00;39;04;26 - 00;39;12;00
Murray Dueck
I heard you coming. So I hid, right? And the woman you put here with me, you know, like.

00;39;12;03 - 00;39;14;15
Joshua Hoffert
My ministry, my calling, my gift.

00;39;14;19 - 00;39;34;24
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that that to to live so open hearted is to discover in us that the effects of the knowledge of the tree of good and evil. Right. And again, God, why, the Word of God is sharper than any double edged sword. It cuts between joints and marrow, soul and spirit, discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And and to realize this becoming like Christ is, is so important.

00;39;34;26 - 00;39;55;10
Murray Dueck
And that's why these rules in prayer are here. Yeah. To to make it about becoming. And so anyway, I just wanted to point that out that they're not scary. They're meant to heal. They're meant to heal our souls. We're supposed to be healed and become and to be free so we can be childlike, right?

00;39;55;12 - 00;40;08;26
Joshua Hoffert
There's 7 billion people on the face of the earth, right? Something like that. 7 billion, 7.5 billion, I don't know how many it is total. And anymore probably, you know, so we probably need some great calamity to wipe out half of the population.

00;40;08;26 - 00;40;10;00
Murray Dueck
Oh, boy. That's mercy.

00;40;10;03 - 00;40;20;22
Joshua Hoffert
That's what the the billionaires say anyway. Oh, man. Believe the conspiracies. So but that's not the kind of podcast that we have yet.

00;40;20;24 - 00;40;22;25
Murray Dueck
That'll be on Justin's new podcast.

00;40;22;25 - 00;40;23;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's.

00;40;23;16 - 00;40;27;01
Murray Dueck
That'll be on Joshua's new podcast, everyone, which I won't be a part.

00;40;27;01 - 00;40;30;05
Joshua Hoffert
Of my podcast.

00;40;30;08 - 00;40;32;14
Murray Dueck
Wait till you hear that comment. Wow.

00;40;32;17 - 00;40;55;14
Joshua Hoffert
So 7 billion people on the face of the earth, right? You're not the main character. That's that's you're not the main character, but because, life. Well, it's funny how if you think about it, life is limited to our perspective, but you've actually never even seen yourself, right? You can't like, I. I can't see what I look like, I can see a mirror.

00;40;55;14 - 00;41;14;22
Joshua Hoffert
But then I have to trust that the mirror is giving me an accurate reflection of what I look like. Right? I, I see myself only through the lens of how other people see me and how I interact with other people, so I can't even be the main character of my own story, because I can't know myself unless I know others.

00;41;14;25 - 00;41;32;16
Joshua Hoffert
Right? I and they're, you know, it's your brain's literally wired to fire off when other people light up when they see you. Like your your brain is entirely designed around the dynamic of being in connection with other people. Murray's just, I think Cast Up saved the puppies for a second.

00;41;32;18 - 00;41;36;11
Murray Dueck
Yes, yes, yes, they are. They're tries. You can I don't know you can see that.

00;41;36;13 - 00;41;38;15
Joshua Hoffert
Oh are there are they're trying to eat.

00;41;38;18 - 00;41;58;15
Murray Dueck
Yes. But they're are they. You know they're still only nine days old so they're working. I think they're going the right way here. Whoa. So that guy just wiped out and Iceland. Is that the mum isn't helping here? Because there we go. There we go. Come on. That's what you gotta. That's what you gotta figure out here.

00;41;58;15 - 00;42;08;12
Murray Dueck
There we go. Good girl. Hey, everyone. I'm back. Talk about. Well, there's neediness right there. Everybody. It's. Puppies are like me now or else. Right. Well, I was about me.

00;42;08;13 - 00;42;34;09
Joshua Hoffert
I was just thinking about this. That, we just had two birthdays in our household. All right, I've got. My daughter was born and both my daughter and, oldest daughter. Youngest son born in May. Oh, darn. In the beginning of May. And so our practice has become over the years that, presents are opened in the morning for the kid whose birthday it is.

00;42;34;10 - 00;42;35;04
Murray Dueck
Oh, and.

00;42;35;04 - 00;43;02;23
Joshua Hoffert
Later we'll have, you know, a meal, maybe a party, that kind of stuff. Right. So on the morning of my daughter's birthday, in the morning of my son's birthday, they they they were opening presents at, like, 7 a.m., right. And, we have we also have a chocolate lab named Thompson. So we gathered around, whether it's my daughter or whether it's my son.

00;43;02;23 - 00;43;20;05
Joshua Hoffert
We gathered around, watched them celebrated. You know, it's awesome, right? They're the they're they're the main character at that moment. Right. And so they're open their presence. And the dog is like hovering around trying to get involved. Right. He wants attention. And so it's like, chill out, you're just a dog.

00;43;20;05 - 00;43;22;06
Murray Dueck
Even the dogs are affected by the fall.

00;43;22;10 - 00;43;39;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, even the dogs are affected by the fall. He wanted to be the center of attention. Right. Because he sees what we're doing. And I want to be in there. Right. He's a lab. So that's what labs do. And I was thinking about this. How much we are like that. If the if the spotlight's off of us. Yeah.

00;43;39;28 - 00;43;40;26
Joshua Hoffert
We're like, it's hard.

00;43;40;26 - 00;43;41;15
Murray Dueck
What's in the heart.

00;43;41;15 - 00;43;45;15
Joshua Hoffert
Got us right. Like, well, I want to I want attention, I want affection, I want validation, I.

00;43;45;15 - 00;43;48;14
Murray Dueck
Want I feel so much better. So therefore it's God's will.

00;43;48;15 - 00;43;56;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And so point number one isn't even so much a practice as it is a reorienting the gaze of your life. Right? Oh, what.

00;43;56;28 - 00;43;57;27
Murray Dueck
A good way to say it.

00;43;57;27 - 00;44;11;12
Joshua Hoffert
It's not. Yeah. It's not me me me me me mine mine mine mine mine yours you say? Actually, no. My life is not about finding self-fulfillment. It's God fulfillment. What am I doing to fulfill him?

00;44;11;15 - 00;44;12;17
Murray Dueck
Oh, that's a good way to say.

00;44;12;20 - 00;44;24;00
Joshua Hoffert
I'm forgetting myself. I'm not thinking I need this, I need this, right? So prayer turns missionary prayer, right? Which is what a lot of people would practice when things get rough is about me. I'm the center of attention. I'm the.

00;44;24;00 - 00;44;24;19
Murray Dueck
Focus. Right?

00;44;24;19 - 00;44;43;29
Joshua Hoffert
Right. I'm the main character. Well, you're not actually in Scripture. And in the universe. God's the main character. We're simply a reflection of him. So forget all you. No, it's all mine. It's not my house. It's not my budget. It's not my money. It's his. You know, how do I go about using it in a way that honors and blesses him, right?

00;44;43;29 - 00;45;14;13
Joshua Hoffert
That this is now my gaze is slowly getting off the all consuming energy of the self and starting to put it back on Christ and the selflessness that he showed us. And and it's amazing how much that reorients peace, joy and love and and as we said earlier, how much it, burdens you of the, the, the object of self-fulfillment and the object of mind and the object of accumulation.

00;45;14;16 - 00;45;42;10
Joshua Hoffert
So our very first stages actually get your eyes off yourself, get them back on him. Brian. So self renunciation is not it's not how. Oh, I'm so poor and pitiful and ugly and worthless and all of that. That's actually a way of putting yourself back at the center. Yeah. All right, now I'm still looking at myself. So renunciation is forget about yourself, stop thinking about it.

00;45;42;13 - 00;45;43;03
Joshua Hoffert
Start thinking.

00;45;43;03 - 00;46;05;20
Murray Dueck
About. And you to really believe that when we do that, because God is such a good father and Jesus is such a good bridegroom, they are thinking about us. And Psalm 139 says, all his thoughts are towards me. Then more than all the sand and all the seashores I write to, I mean it takes he takes a life of walking with Christ to really figure that out.

00;46;05;20 - 00;46;17;00
Murray Dueck
And, and and you know, just so you know, everybody, I would you know, I'm going to speak for you, Joshua, but I think I can is that Joshua? I have visited this, but we don't live here. Right. It for.

00;46;17;00 - 00;46;17;11
Joshua Hoffert
Sure.

00;46;17;14 - 00;46;22;23
Murray Dueck
Yeah. It's amazing how that self gets back on this.

00;46;22;23 - 00;46;25;04
Joshua Hoffert
Rolls you right back here quickly.

00;46;25;06 - 00;46;33;05
Murray Dueck
And then you're like oh I'm doing it again okay. Breathe. Thank you Lord. Yeah it's it's quite something.

00;46;33;05 - 00;46;50;21
Joshua Hoffert
And you read something like this and the the goal as I said before we are, you know, with our Patreon subscribers, the goal is not that I go, oh, I know how Marie does this all the time. He did this and this and this and this, right. The goal is I read this and I go, oh, I do that all the time.

00;46;50;21 - 00;46;58;11
Joshua Hoffert
I put myself back on the throne. Oh, we can hear the little yapping of the Pope. Okay. You know, I'm like, it's amazing. Yeah, yeah. There's.

00;46;58;13 - 00;47;09;26
Murray Dueck
You know, there's like 12 nipples, I think, and two puppies. Why do they have to fight over the same nipple? Like, talk about a model of what we're talking about. That's what you're doing there. Like.

00;47;10;01 - 00;47;11;23
Joshua Hoffert
That's right, that's right.

00;47;11;25 - 00;47;12;12
Murray Dueck
You guys.

00;47;12;12 - 00;47;17;26
Joshua Hoffert
You it's it's it's a prophetic sign playing out in real time.

00;47;17;29 - 00;47;26;10
Murray Dueck
Because that's what that's what they're doing there. No, I went there I fixed it there. Yeah. This is why I'm up all night. Currently with puppies with what I just did right there.

00;47;26;12 - 00;47;27;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;47;27;29 - 00;47;28;11
Murray Dueck
That is.

00;47;28;12 - 00;47;31;15
Joshua Hoffert
Anyways. Yeah. Does anybody want puppies? Does anybody looking.

00;47;31;15 - 00;47;47;10
Murray Dueck
Please send us so we have a puppy. If you want a sheep dog puppy that is well loved, we're looking for somebody who would really love a, sheepdog with, you know, some property where they could run. But cheap dogs are wonderful. They're great with kids. They're great with people.

00;47;47;16 - 00;47;50;02
Joshua Hoffert
Self renunciation to to raise a puppy. That's for.

00;47;50;02 - 00;47;52;08
Murray Dueck
Sure. Yeah. Let me tell you. Right.

00;47;52;11 - 00;48;09;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Anyway, that's the thing is, I think people hear that language. Yeah. And they go, oh, you know, like, it's like they go right back to that, that. What was it again to them that the, the kind of the reformed tradition that hammered in to gravity, right.

00;48;09;27 - 00;48;29;22
Murray Dueck
Is we go back to this judicial mindset. We hear this and it's like, oh man, I got to live up to this. And oh my goodness, it's a law. And I got it. And if I don't do it, God is going to be mad at me instead of, you know, this is a healing for your soul. This is about healing you so you can meet God with your spirit without all the self getting in the way.

00;48;29;22 - 00;48;37;13
Murray Dueck
Yeah, because God loves us so much that we can surrender to, think of it, everybody. Like coming out of the matrix.

00;48;37;15 - 00;48;38;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. You know, that's right.

00;48;38;23 - 00;49;00;15
Murray Dueck
Like like we're in the matrix and we want to stay plugged in. But really, there is a bigger life. But but you only you only get it by laying down your life, right? Those who lose their life will find it. And, and it's interesting, you know, there's a great book, everyone. And I love this book. It it would help a little bit with this.

00;49;00;15 - 00;49;21;04
Murray Dueck
And it's called prayer Is a Place by Charles Pillow. And I mentioned it before, but it's a great place to start below. So he was a vineyard overseer guy and, you know, looking after a whole bunch of churches and, and finally the Lord said to him one day, Charles, if you don't let me love you, you're not going to make it.

00;49;21;12 - 00;49;38;25
Murray Dueck
And he goes, what do you mean? God, look at all the work I'm doing. And, and he discovered that, there is some brokenness in him. And the book really lays that out. Well, but but he lays out these four quadrants, and I'm sure it's a psychology thing, and I can't tell you what it is, but quadrant one is what you know about yourself, what others know about you.

00;49;38;28 - 00;49;39;20
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;49;39;23 - 00;49;57;16
Murray Dueck
Quadrant two. Two is what you know about yourself, but you don't want other people to know about you. Right. Quadrant three is what other people know about you, and you can't see about yourself, but they're not going to tell you. Right. And then quadrant four is what you don't know about yourself, and others don't know about you, but God knows, right?

00;49;57;16 - 00;49;58;25
Murray Dueck
Right. And that.

00;49;59;00 - 00;49;59;28
Joshua Hoffert
That's great.

00;50;00;00 - 00;50;03;29
Murray Dueck
That this self renunciation is really dealing with all of that.

00;50;04;01 - 00;50;04;27
Joshua Hoffert
All four of them.

00;50;04;27 - 00;50;22;21
Murray Dueck
Yeah. I can't tell you for how many years, back in the day, my, my, my wife used to say to me, why do you put so many hours to the church, 68 or 80 hour weeks? Like, we were kind of in a revival thing, you know, got 100 kids saved in six months. Meanwhile, somebody's got to look after them, and and there isn't anybody else in there.

00;50;22;21 - 00;50;44;12
Murray Dueck
All these people are meeting Jesus. You know, I burned myself right out, right? And then and then finally, I said, you know, why am I putting all these hours? It and it was like my wife was like, I've been trying to tell you that for years. It's like, well, why couldn't I hear it? Well, my culture and my upbringing and and my responsibility and people's needs and I in the end, that was all self.

00;50;44;15 - 00;51;05;26
Murray Dueck
I need to do it because no one else is going to do it. And and that God's flowing through me and the power is coming here. And it's my ministry, and I must grow my thing. And man, do I see it so different now that that if I would have lived some letting go and done, maybe some of what Father Luke laid out here, I could have been, I could have ended way better.

00;51;05;29 - 00;51;06;10
Murray Dueck
You know.

00;51;06;16 - 00;51;51;03
Joshua Hoffert
In a way, it's kind of like when you're trying to remember something, right? And you can't remember it, and then you start thinking about something else, and suddenly it occurs to you, right? It's it's no amount of navel gazing will teach you about yourself and, you know, best. But actually, I read a study recently that that said, people that have become involved in meditation practices like yoga and stuff like that, in the, in the, you know, the New age, the New Age movement where mindfulness and all of that is supposed to produce greater mental health, but it's actually caused many people to suffer and their mental.

00;51;51;03 - 00;51;55;17
Murray Dueck
Health because it brings up all their stuff concealed in their heart that they don't want to look with no.

00;51;55;17 - 00;51;56;21
Joshua Hoffert
Resolution. Right.

00;51;56;24 - 00;51;58;21
Murray Dueck
Because you need Christ to fix that.

00;51;58;23 - 00;52;14;18
Joshua Hoffert
So I was I read it and they're, you know, they're like, oh, these are interesting findings. We don't know what to do with this. And I was like, yeah, of course. Right. So you're you see the self and you're like, oh, I don't like that guy. Right. And you've got this picture you've got you don't have ten rules to go, well, how do I navigate this?

00;52;14;21 - 00;52;16;14
Joshua Hoffert
Right. That helps Jesus be the center.

00;52;16;14 - 00;52;20;16
Murray Dueck
And yeah, I need somebody who's going to heal you. And it's not you. I hate to tell you.

00;52;20;21 - 00;52;24;03
Joshua Hoffert
Stop thinking about yourself and let him bring this stuff up.

00;52;24;06 - 00;52;24;27
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I think.

00;52;25;03 - 00;52;32;11
Joshua Hoffert
You try and bring this stuff up in an attempt to control the outcome, but you can't control the outcome because you don't know what you want to happen next.

00;52;32;14 - 00;52;46;00
Murray Dueck
Can I throw it just with that? I think people would like this. I, you know, I was watching Jews for Jesus. You know, there's some really good, podcasts, like one for Israel. I like, you know, they're they're good things. And I came across this one.

00;52;46;00 - 00;52;47;29
Joshua Hoffert
I thought you said juice for Jesus.

00;52;48;02 - 00;52;48;21
Murray Dueck
Juice? Yeah.

00;52;48;23 - 00;53;00;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, it was like a evangelical union, but it wouldn't be Orthodox or Catholic or Anglican Communion because there's no wine, juice. Jesus.

00;53;00;29 - 00;53;26;17
Murray Dueck
Oh, if I could find it, I it's a, it's this new age gal who is Jewish, and tried everything and, and finally became a Christian and, it's really worth your time to everybody to just, if you're into that kind of thing. Testimonies from New Ager reform, it's called, reform. Okay. Hold on. Reformed.

00;53;26;19 - 00;53;49;13
Murray Dueck
I don't have my glasses on, so I'm looking at the story to read it. On the messenger. Okay, hold on a second. Just give you. It's worth your time. Everybody just just believe me. Reformed New Agers in Christ testimonies reform New Agers in Christ. And this is what she said. She goes, I started when I was like seven and she went into crystal healing and and car and everything.

00;53;49;13 - 00;54;22;02
Murray Dueck
She goes, you know what? It worked for about two years and then I'd have to move on to the next one. And, and I realized I was my own God, and it doesn't work. Right. And then anyway, it's really worth it time everybody to to see that culture, belief systems and, you know, there's a big there is you know, I'm kind of against oh, it's going to sound bad, but when I, I've heard the word revival for 30 years, often I roll my eyes because it's like, but, you know, there's something going on in the world right now that, when secular newspapers say, you know what?

00;54;22;05 - 00;54;41;20
Murray Dueck
People, young men are going back to church now. Well, read it on Newsweek the other day or whatever. There's. And people are discovering that and God's moving. It's pretty interesting times we're living in right now. So anyway. But yeah, it's worth your time, everyone, to go to that site, I love it. I think you'll be, people are meet God.

00;54;41;20 - 00;54;46;11
Murray Dueck
Jesus is showing up there discovering. That's wonderful. Anyway, there you go. Side note moving on.

00;54;46;13 - 00;55;03;18
Joshua Hoffert
So, point two, maybe we'll cover point two, and then we'll end for the day. Yeah, except to have no results. Point to and and I love the, the particular it's funny, some of these things, you know, one point will stand out to one person more than another. Point will.

00;55;03;18 - 00;55;04;06
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;55;04;06 - 00;55;33;03
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Never measure yourself against others. And and that's one that just nails me. And, it makes me think of a dream that I had years ago that was quite instructive to me and to my own heart. And, And it's a short dream. I'll share it in in the. Yeah, yeah, it's a dream. I was, supposed to be speaking at a conference, and the conference had something to do with the father's love and the father's heart, and.

00;55;33;03 - 00;55;52;17
Joshua Hoffert
And I was going to be sharing a message about, you know, his his kind of radical acceptance and love of you. It was something like that, right? I don't I don't quite remember offhand. I could look it up, but I don't remember offhand. But it was something to do with that. And I got to the to the event and I was going to be speaking.

00;55;52;17 - 00;55;58;21
Joshua Hoffert
And I looked down. I realized I was wearing my workout clothes like I've just been to the gym, you know?

00;55;58;22 - 00;56;01;03
Murray Dueck
So good. Good symbolic language right there.

00;56;01;05 - 00;56;24;21
Joshua Hoffert
T shirt, shorts. Right? Just like, oh, I totally forgot to change so that, you know, I had nice clothes on to go speak publicly. Right. So I go into the into a back room or like a, like a closet room or whatever, right? Yeah. And there's a bunch of clothes there. And so I'm looking for something to do.

00;56;24;25 - 00;56;37;23
Joshua Hoffert
Man, I could put this on. So I found the pants of a guy I know. He was a he's a itinerary guy. He does speaks and does stuff like that. And I put the pants on, right? Like, oh, I'll put his pants on.

00;56;37;25 - 00;56;38;09
Murray Dueck
They didn't.

00;56;38;09 - 00;56;57;02
Joshua Hoffert
Fit. They were too big. Right? And so so I was like, what am I supposed to do? I could I can't really wear his pants to go do this because they don't fit me either. Right? But I don't have my own. And and again, the context was the father's heart is love and all of that. And, and that was a dream, right?

00;56;57;02 - 00;57;17;15
Joshua Hoffert
I, I ended without any kind of resolution, but it was the, the I, the dream to me spoke to that need to be accepted and validated. Right. Like I can't go out there looking like this. I have to look and and if I'm going to do it, I got to maybe I could look like that person. He does it well or she does it well.

00;57;17;18 - 00;57;26;29
Joshua Hoffert
It was on. Right. And so I'm I'm judging my appearance based on how other people do the thing that God's asked me to do. Yeah, I'm.

00;57;27;00 - 00;57;37;08
Murray Dueck
Well, it's such a brilliant dream. So everyone, we must digress on this dream just for a moment because it's it's quite brilliant. What's interesting? Workout clothes really suggest your own effort. You know for.

00;57;37;08 - 00;57;38;16
Joshua Hoffert
Sure. That's a good point. Yeah.

00;57;38;22 - 00;57;41;05
Murray Dueck
And realizing my own effort isn't going to do that.

00;57;41;05 - 00;57;41;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;57;41;22 - 00;57;48;21
Murray Dueck
So then it's like, well then if that's going to not work my effort. Well, what about if I became like this guy.

00;57;48;22 - 00;57;49;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, exactly.

00;57;49;15 - 00;57;51;12
Murray Dueck
Well that's not going to work. You don't work.

00;57;51;13 - 00;57;52;23
Joshua Hoffert
Either. Yeah.

00;57;52;25 - 00;58;00;14
Murray Dueck
Because and to realize you got to come as you are. Yeah, just as I am. As the old saying go.

00;58;00;15 - 00;58;03;18
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. I should have just taken it all off and.

00;58;03;21 - 00;58;06;18
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;58;06;21 - 00;58;09;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So yes. That, you know, naked. That's real. That's right.

00;58;09;29 - 00;58;24;29
Murray Dueck
There was a saying in the 90s, I believe or not, about about, I well, I got a story I could tell, but we won't go there. It's a family show, but, get naked, met, become vulnerable and your real self and, yes, maybe. Yes.

00;58;25;01 - 00;59;02;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Which is, that's essentially what the point number two is, is except to have no results, if you have an outcome in mind, you're going to be disappointed that the point is not you as the outcome or. Yeah, or like the path of Christ, mannose or prayer is not an increased measure of internal peace. But I found, I find that oftentimes in the evangelical world when it comes to spiritual disciplines, a lot of times the selling point is do these things and you'll be more peaceful.

00;59;02;13 - 00;59;02;23
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;59;02;27 - 00;59;21;12
Joshua Hoffert
And and again, that's the it's going back to that same, the same dilemma that you, you had just mentioned is you do it for a couple of years and it may work for a little while, but that's not the end goal. The end goal is not you. The end goal is knowing him. And then as you know him, you're formed in his image.

00;59;21;16 - 00;59;40;24
Joshua Hoffert
The end goal is actually Jesus. The end goal is not internal peace. The end goal is not a lack of anxiety. But that's sometimes that's why people get into, well, okay, you do these things and your anxiety will lessen. And that might work for a little while. It may work for a little while.

00;59;40;27 - 00;59;47;24
Murray Dueck
You know it. But if we keep it in the Christian context, it's a good place to start. Sure. Yeah. You know. Yeah.

00;59;47;26 - 01;00;08;05
Joshua Hoffert
Anxiety might drive you to Jesus like it does. That scripture does that all the time, right? You will have great calamity drives them to Jesus. That's great. Right. That's not the place to that's that when you realize that the door I came in, don't let that be the door. You always stay near. Right? Amen. Change. Well said. Yeah.

01;00;08;05 - 01;00;26;09
Joshua Hoffert
Don't. They don't accept to have no results. My goal is not a lack of anxiety or depression or whatever. Maybe that'll happen, but maybe not. I am. I know, I know people that have struggled with that. They're waiting for God to heal them. And it's been 50 years struggling with depression. Right.

01;00;26;12 - 01;00;54;03
Murray Dueck
You know what's interesting? I never read it this way. And it's it's funny that my my Mennonite upbringing still it's still there. I mean, I there's lots of things I like about my Mennonite upbringing. You know, I, I'd say I'm quite pastoral because of it. I think, you know, social justice I think is in me. But this whole work thing, you know, performance and and it's funny, I, I was reading this, this little book again that I really I'm quite enjoying thirsting for a prayer by Jack Philip, this Catholic guy.

01;00;54;05 - 01;01;13;20
Murray Dueck
So again I, you know, take the meeting, spit out the bones, everybody I don't plan to become. Although there's a new pope, he seems like a good guy. I'm still going to believe he the only way to Jesus. Like, you know, like, sorry, I'm not going to buy that. However he made, he made a comment in this regard that really surprised me about the calling of the of the disciples.

01;01;13;20 - 01;01;29;19
Murray Dueck
And he quoted the verse out of Mark. And it's very clear, you know, because if I said, what is the calling of the disciples? What is it? And I would say, well, it's to to serve him. It's the it's to go do the stuff. It's to, you know, it's to. And these signs will follow those who believe, right.

01;01;29;25 - 01;01;37;21
Murray Dueck
The will raise the dead and but in Mark there's a verse it says the calling of the disciples. It was what to be with him.

01;01;37;24 - 01;01;38;23
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

01;01;38;25 - 01;01;44;13
Murray Dueck
Word for word. There it is. The calling of the disciples is not a job description. It's to be with Christ.

01;01;44;13 - 01;01;45;09
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Yeah.

01;01;45;10 - 01;02;02;13
Murray Dueck
And I never I mean, I knew that we talk about that all the time, but I didn't know that verse was there in regard the disciples. I just didn't know it was there. And, it's shocking by our own culture how it again, it hooks us to expect results. It hooks us to. This is what you're becoming, right?

01;02;02;13 - 01;02;05;02
Murray Dueck
No. Are calling us to be with him.

01;02;05;05 - 01;02;05;19
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;02;05;25 - 01;02;20;19
Murray Dueck
Yeah. That's it. To be with him. Yeah. And, as again, Teresa of Avila said with a different quote than I did last time, I believe she said, if I knew that Christ is deemed to make my little heart his home, I would not have left him there alone so often.

01;02;20;20 - 01;02;23;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's so good is so true. Yeah.

01;02;23;19 - 01;02;29;01
Murray Dueck
I, you know, again, a little bit about, you know, Murray ism in there because I might not get a word for word, but I'm pretty close enough.

01;02;29;02 - 01;02;47;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Our, our friend Steve, who we've had on the podcast before, he says release outcomes. That's one of the things that we'll talk about which is, which is, you know, it's the same it's the same dynamic. Yeah. It is. Once you have an outcome in mind, you work towards something that's your own invention.

01;02;47;29 - 01;03;06;21
Murray Dueck
You know, there's a great quote and I'll just say this yet, but it's great. Brennan Manning, it's in one of his books, I think. But you could look it up. This this, well known Christian guy goes to see Mother Teresa, and, you know, he's lost. He doesn't know what to do with his life. And I'm not sure if his ministry shut down.

01;03;06;21 - 01;03;11;13
Murray Dueck
And you feel about that. And do you remember this? And he goes to see her, and, So I think it maddening.

01;03;11;15 - 01;03;12;18
Joshua Hoffert
I think it is maddening.

01;03;12;21 - 01;03;30;27
Murray Dueck
I was it's in his book anyway. And she says to him, what can I do for you? And he says, I want you to pray. I want you to pray clarity for me. And she goes, I will not do that, because why not a being? Because that's the last thing you're holding on to. You need to let it go.

01;03;30;29 - 01;03;47;15
Murray Dueck
And he goes, well, you looks like you've always had clarity. He goes, I've never had clarity, right? She goes, but I do have Jesus. And it's like, because you're holding on to clarity, you got to let it go. It's like, whoa. Because our left side of our brain so badly wants to figure it out.

01;03;47;17 - 01;03;48;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;03;48;01 - 01;03;51;08
Murray Dueck
Rather than just rest in the arms of the beloved. And it's tough, like.

01;03;51;10 - 01;03;52;29
Joshua Hoffert
Absolutely.

01;03;53;02 - 01;04;07;09
Murray Dueck
But that's the process of becoming Christlike is to. It's hard to believe being childlike is so difficult. Because it's really that's be like a little child. Okay, fine. That's great. But it's so hard to do the greatest.

01;04;07;12 - 01;04;20;04
Joshua Hoffert
You know, hold on. To quote masters, spiritual masters that we know they'll all echo the same refrain, right this this right here. And it's so counterintuitive.

01;04;20;07 - 01;04;21;04
Murray Dueck
So me to.

01;04;21;04 - 01;04;47;13
Joshua Hoffert
Let go of myself and I don't I don't have an outcome in mind. How will I ever grow and progress and build and establish? And it's like, yeah, it's a it's a problem, isn't it? And that's really the only answer we can give. And it's the right. Yeah. Like that's the problem. I love the, the point, in point two, if the Lord doesn't build your house, you labor in vain.

01;04;47;15 - 01;05;01;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, right. And that's so true. That's really the point to have. No, don't expect results because of the Lord doesn't build it. You build in vain. And that's my, more puppy problems.

01;05;01;05 - 01;05;09;03
Murray Dueck
You just try to crawl up the dog when on his back rolled over and rolled all the way down. So,

01;05;09;06 - 01;05;15;02
Joshua Hoffert
Murray has to be the puppy savior again.

01;05;15;05 - 01;05;20;25
Murray Dueck
Sorry. Did he fall? If he falls asleep right there? Okay, I'll let him. I'll let him be. But,

01;05;20;27 - 01;05;23;00
Joshua Hoffert
There is a lot of sleeping when it comes to puppies.

01;05;23;06 - 01;05;30;12
Murray Dueck
Now, 90% is boy, I. Yeah, and you can learn a lot from puppies, everybody, because rest in your mother's arms.

01;05;30;14 - 01;05;32;08
Joshua Hoffert
That's right, that's right.

01;05;32;11 - 01;05;41;01
Murray Dueck
I think I think of, Madame G on where she's. He says it's like, being in prayer. It's like a nursing baby. Be like that.

01;05;41;08 - 01;05;42;01
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

01;05;42;03 - 01;05;49;24
Murray Dueck
Just. And so, be like a puppy. Everybody like a newborn eight day old puppy. In your prayer life.

01;05;49;27 - 01;05;56;03
Joshua Hoffert
They will be good. Always. Yeah. So that's I guess that's point two and a half. Be like a puppy.

01;05;56;06 - 01;05;56;26
Murray Dueck
Be like a puppy.

01;05;56;26 - 01;06;04;26
Joshua Hoffert
Two and a half. Yeah, well, I think my friend with that we've we've been going for quite a while and I know both of us have stuff to do, so.

01;06;04;28 - 01;06;29;20
Murray Dueck
Well, you know, it's a good it's a good. You know, it's it's hard to there's human humanity thing. It'd be coming and laying down your life. It's unless you become like a little child. I mean, yeah, you know, there's a famous painting and I didn't know it existed about about Peter and and, and I and I guess it goes back to tradition and and you remember Jesus said to Peter, pick up your cross and follow the feed.

01;06;29;26 - 01;06;52;12
Murray Dueck
And then Peter goes, well, what about that guy? Yeah. That's right, that's right. What about that guy? What's he going to do? Yeah. You know, hey, I'm not talking to him. I'm talking to you. And supposing in this painting, when it came time for him to be crucified, he ran, eat, fled. And as he's fleeing, and this is the painting, and I think it's based on tradition, in the painting, he's fleeing Rome.

01;06;52;12 - 01;07;17;15
Murray Dueck
And as he gets to the outskirts of Rome, there is Jesus. Carey gives cross. Peter sees it, and he turns around and goes back because he's like, I don't want to do that right and right. And, I think for all of us is death. The self is a bit like that. We're fleeing. Yeah. And we have to just look at Jesus going, oh, yeah, that is what Christ did, isn't it?

01;07;17;17 - 01;07;18;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;07;18;13 - 01;07;30;16
Murray Dueck
So you might want to go online and just type in, Peter fleeing, seeing Jesus on the cross and just look at that painting. Yeah. You know, and, it's,

01;07;30;18 - 01;07;58;10
Murray Dueck
Fun. It's amazing. Everyone just just to maybe. End on a happy note. Believe it or not, as we talked in the, precast, it's funny how happy monks and nuns are. You would think they'd be these really dour people, because they've given up everything and even their identity and gone into seclusion. But they tend to be very happy people.

01;07;58;10 - 01;08;05;08
Murray Dueck
And but it's because, They're meeting Jesus, right?

01;08;05;12 - 01;08;05;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;08;05;19 - 01;08;18;20
Murray Dueck
And Jesus is full of joy. And and this there's a transition that happens where when self begins to let go, it's not like you're going into darkness. There's somebody there by Jesus name, Jesus, who takes that spot.

01;08;18;21 - 01;08;21;26
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Yeah. That's right. That's absolutely true.

01;08;21;28 - 01;08;32;19
Murray Dueck
And he is full of peace and full of joy. And sometimes we need to see what's in ourselves so we know what the surrender. So Jesus can replace it with him.

01;08;32;19 - 01;08;33;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right.

01;08;34;00 - 01;08;42;08
Murray Dueck
And that's a beautiful thing because that's what it's about, right? I consider all things loss that I may gain. Christ.

01;08;42;08 - 01;08;43;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;08;43;04 - 01;09;10;18
Murray Dueck
I may know him. Yeah. That's that's where this goes. But it is. It is a journey. And I don't know if any of you have ever walked the labyrinth, and some of you might be gasping right now like, oh my God, that's a god. I think, no, it's the church actually figured out that this journey called life, you know, we don't just go straight, straight in and become there's a lot of seemingly five steps forward, three steps back.

01;09;10;21 - 01;09;31;13
Murray Dueck
We think we're going straight. We go right, we think we're going right. We go left. And they kind of mapped it out is a little pilgrimage. And to, you know, to walk one of those things thinking, boy, life doesn't not go straight. No. It took some twists and turns and I actually walk one of those things with that in mind, going, Jesus, I want to get there.

01;09;31;15 - 01;09;32;17
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

01;09;32;20 - 01;09;58;02
Murray Dueck
But sometimes it doesn't. It even goes backwards. And to and to realize there's a method to Jesus's madness in finding what's in our hearts. And if we live the right way, our heart actually transitions. Self does let go. Christ does take up that spot right? And those areas of art gets filled with the spirit, and intimate intimacy with Christ comes.

01;09;58;05 - 01;10;03;01
Murray Dueck
Yeah, it's the journey is worth it. Because of the beloved.

01;10;03;03 - 01;10;03;20
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;10;03;20 - 01;10;05;02
Murray Dueck
Right. And so.

01;10;05;02 - 01;10;06;20
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;10;06;22 - 01;10;07;18
Murray Dueck
Anyway, there you go.

01;10;07;20 - 01;10;11;16
Joshua Hoffert
That's good, that's good. Well, well, I think we'll probably take this up.

01;10;11;18 - 01;10;13;05
Murray Dueck
Yeah. We should. It's brilliant.

01;10;13;05 - 01;10;17;17
Joshua Hoffert
I've got a few more that we can cover, so, Yeah, but.

01;10;17;17 - 01;10;37;20
Murray Dueck
I think it's good to, you know, just, You know, I hope everybody, as, as we're working through this document that that if you read, you know, like, you know, like Josh and I, you know, some people are a computer geek, some people are, you know, video game geeks. Josh and I are like historical documents of the church geeks.

01;10;37;22 - 01;10;58;16
Murray Dueck
You know, we really. It's very true. We really are. Yeah. And you read comments like, I can't remember. Is that Seraphim, or, Zechariah, one of these guys in the laging the heart says, keep your mind in hell. And fear not right or despair not I yeah. What's what's I like are you talking about like.

01;10;58;16 - 01;11;34;15
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that's a horrible statement. But yeah, when you realize what they mean is let your heart transform and let the peace of Christ meet you there. Yeah. It's you have to read these texts from the point of view of of this overcoming joy that's coming up, but from being in spirit. And I hope some of you, when you if you read these texts and you become, you know, as T.S. Lewis said, you know, read the Church Fathers every hundred years back, or that for every new book you read, you should read two ancient ones, right?

01;11;34;15 - 01;11;57;11
Murray Dueck
You know, that's good advice. But when you read these things, you need to not read it through a modern, charismatic lens or even a Calvinist lens like I was going to beat on me. And he's a mean father. You have to read it through a point of view of of becoming and transition and the process and realizing these are very happy people who have who have much, somebody who transforms them.

01;11;57;11 - 01;12;01;25
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And they're talking about a process of swapping your life for his.

01;12;01;25 - 01;12;02;28
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;12;03;00 - 01;12;30;05
Murray Dueck
That becomes this beautiful thing. And I hope, you know, as you're listening today, if you go back to some of these documents that you can read them from this point of view, because they're beautiful things to read, but you can't read it from a modern, charismatic or even a modern, you know, evangelical lens. You have to read it from a lens of transformation, of becoming, that the heart is being healed and the sickness needs to be purged and brought up.

01;12;30;06 - 01;12;30;20
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;12;30;20 - 01;12;40;17
Murray Dueck
But then it becomes this beautifully transformed thing, right? So anyway, I just wanted that. That's caffeine talking, lack of sleep, being up with puppies.

01;12;40;17 - 01;12;42;17
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, no. There you go. Well it was it was.

01;12;42;17 - 01;12;43;02
Murray Dueck
Good for me.

01;12;43;04 - 01;12;44;23
Joshua Hoffert
Everybody talk. Yeah, yeah.

01;12;44;24 - 01;13;03;27
Murray Dueck
I just I love the church. I love the ancient ness of it. I love how the Holy Spirit has taught people for 2000 years and and, and and I hope you guys all do too. But we have to read it through a lens that's so different, like like really. And we're running into that right now. We're reading this document and having to go, okay guys, we've got to look at this the right way.

01;13;04;00 - 01;13;25;07
Murray Dueck
Yeah. You know, the church is such a beautiful place and there's lots of stuff in it. You know, somebody said, I think the Orthodox somebody said the church is a hospital. We shouldn't be surprised to find sick people in it. Yeah. You know, but but then again, it is a hospital bed. Heals the soul. That's so,

01;13;25;09 - 01;13;28;07
Murray Dueck
Anyway, so that's my rant.

01;13;28;07 - 01;13;33;24
Joshua Hoffert
That's good. That's a good grammar. Murray's rants. Stay tuned for more of them.

01;13;33;26 - 01;13;34;11
Murray Dueck
That's right.

01;13;34;12 - 01;13;48;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So. Well, everybody, like I said, check out our Patreon. And if you want, to see a copy of the document, we'll put it up on the Patreon. And, yeah, I think, we'll talk again.

01;13;48;14 - 01;14;07;00
Murray Dueck
I just want to thank, thank Josh for, you know, Josh, guys, he edits this. He them he's setting up the page. He's doing a lot of work here. And I just I get to come and play. And I just so thankful,

01;14;07;03 - 01;14;29;20
Murray Dueck
For, the value Josh has for how Christ, by the power of the spirit, has walked with the church for 2000 years, and that he values it, that we get to do this. So, everyone, I lift my coffee glass to Josh today. Thanks. And and, I just want to honor his heart and who he is.

01;14;29;22 - 01;14;31;25
Joshua Hoffert
Thank you. Marie, that was very touching.

01;14;31;27 - 01;14;35;14
Murray Dueck
Yeah, and that could be from lack of sleep dynamo function, so.

01;14;35;17 - 01;14;37;10
Joshua Hoffert
Or it could be from friendship.

01;14;37;13 - 01;14;37;26
Murray Dueck
That's right.

01;14;37;26 - 01;14;38;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. That's right.

01;14;38;28 - 01;14;41;25
Murray Dueck
But either way, it is true. I am so thankful.

01;14;41;27 - 01;14;56;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Thank you, thank you. Well, everybody, we will, sign off on this episode and we have more to come. So check out the Patreon and, if you want a puppy, let Marino.

01;14;56;28 - 01;15;05;13
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah. So blessing look up sheep dogs, everybody. Very useful thing. There you go. They're big, but they're like giant happy cats.

01;15;05;14 - 01;15;09;21
Joshua Hoffert
Less beautiful when you have six of them hanging around, but still,

01;15;09;24 - 01;15;15;01
Murray Dueck
Let me tell you, it's not room like room like room on the couch. And I tell you that, right.

01;15;15;04 - 01;15;20;01
Joshua Hoffert
Fell through. Okay. All right. Works wonderful as always.

01;15;20;03 - 01;15;21;29
Murray Dueck
Okay. Bless you, everybody. Thanks for being with us.

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Joshua Hoffert

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Murray Dueck

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