Structure for the Spiritual Life: Spiritual Rules #3 and 4

Josh and Murr are back at it covering rules 3 and 4 from the Communion with Jesus Christ: 10 Rules for the Spiritual Life pamphlet from the monks at the Hermitage of the Annunciation in New Germany, NS. Today's rules:

3. Labour with endurance in prayer.

4. Accept to remain "dry".

For more about the monks, visit: https://www.goosechasemonastery.ca/index.html

For more about Voices from the Desert, visit our Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/VoicesfromtheDesert

Transcript

00;00;17;06 - 00;00;41;15
Murray Dueck
You know, I would say that Kurt excavates the soul. That there's stuff in there that that that needs the beat. You needs to come out. Right. There was Jesus said, it's not the things you eat in the final process and things that come out of the heart. Well, you know, as we pray, God's going to heal. And if there's rocks in the river and it's blocking the pipe, all the Lord's going to get at those rocks.

00;00;41;17 - 00;00;55;05
Murray Dueck
You know, I would say that prayer. Me, there's stuff in there that needs to come out, right? You know, I would say that prayer and there's stuff in there that needs to come out right.

00;00;55;07 - 00;01;04;26
Murray Dueck
I'll pray.

00;01;04;28 - 00;01;14;18
Joshua Hoffert
Welcome, everybody to. The. Well, you might, I'm thinking the peacocks in the desert. Oh.

00;01;14;20 - 00;01;15;21
Murray Dueck
Yes.

00;01;15;21 - 00;01;19;01
Joshua Hoffert
Of course. What keeps me right now?

00;01;19;01 - 00;01;20;02
Murray Dueck
They didn't do anything like.

00;01;20;02 - 00;01;27;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, it's voices from the desert is the podcast, but it's really peacocks that we hear in the background. There we go.

00;01;27;25 - 00;01;28;29
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;01;29;01 - 00;01;38;05
Joshua Hoffert
It's, Mary lives in a zoo. That's. It's actually what you're hearing. Is his heart crying? That's what it sounds like. Oh.

00;01;38;07 - 00;01;39;11
Murray Dueck
Maybe so.

00;01;39;14 - 00;01;41;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Who sounds like a.

00;01;41;02 - 00;01;45;11
Murray Dueck
I'm just surprised you guys can hear that. Well, you'll hear a turkey soon. He's out there.

00;01;45;14 - 00;01;46;29
Joshua Hoffert
Wonderful goats.

00;01;47;01 - 00;01;49;05
Murray Dueck
This time of year. The peacocks.

00;01;49;07 - 00;01;50;23
Joshua Hoffert
It's all they start up.

00;01;50;25 - 00;01;57;17
Murray Dueck
They start up? Yeah. Mating season, everything that goes by, every vehicle, they. They just freak out.

00;01;57;18 - 00;02;14;14
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, that's what it is. Yeah. So. So if anybody's wondering why we. You can hear animal noises in the background, it's because Marie, Ryan, his wife run a hobby farm. Recovery. It's a recovery sanctuary for animals. You know, in a way that in terms of size and people picturing it, it's kind of a hobby farm. Yeah.

00;02;14;15 - 00;02;34;25
Murray Dueck
It's about. Yeah, we have about 70 animals altogether. 20 of those are rabbits. But yeah, we take care of all these animals that have been abandoned or neglected. Farm animals mostly. Yeah. And, Edens Way farm sanctuary. You guys can look it up online, but you'll hear them. I heard the turkey. So, there's turkeys and peacocks and dogs.

00;02;34;25 - 00;02;36;12
Murray Dueck
Those are the main things you're going to hear.

00;02;36;14 - 00;02;43;16
Joshua Hoffert
So we're the voices from the desert. But basically, you're hearing the cries of the farm as well as.

00;02;43;18 - 00;02;47;09
Murray Dueck
And we live in a desert, if you look up Kamloops, British Columbia. Hey, there.

00;02;47;09 - 00;02;48;16
Joshua Hoffert
You go there. You're in.

00;02;48;17 - 00;02;49;04
Murray Dueck
Canada.

00;02;49;04 - 00;02;50;10
Joshua Hoffert
So that's right.

00;02;50;17 - 00;02;56;05
Murray Dueck
We are. The peacocks, technically speaking, are still voice, but we didn't from the desert.

00;02;56;11 - 00;03;28;04
Joshua Hoffert
We didn't need to do the coyote howl because we had the peacock cross. So where we go still works. Yeah. That's right. So welcome, everybody, to another episode. We've been talking about this, communion with Jesus, the daily agenda, one of the one of the pamphlets I up and I happened to pick up on a sojourn, three day, spiritual retreat to a monastery that I, I used to frequent when we lived on the east coast of Canada.

00;03;28;06 - 00;04;01;17
Joshua Hoffert
And, and I and the we talked about this last week, but the the in the, in the pamphlet are ten rules of the spiritual life and they're, they really sum up whether you're talking about the, the Eastern Orthodox tradition, the Catholic tradition, you know, some of those historical church traditions or even the things that are the new fangled Pentecostal and Charismatics, or and I think you wouldn't really have too much of a problem from reformed guys on this one.

00;04;01;17 - 00;04;24;03
Joshua Hoffert
You know, the, the, the ten rules of the spiritual life when it comes to prayer and setting the stage in the course of what that's going to look like. They're pretty universal. And so we thought we would cover those things, but they're written by a Eastern Orthodox monk who's the habit of the monastery out in New Germany, Nova Scotia, called the Hermitage of the Annunciation.

00;04;24;05 - 00;04;27;06
Joshua Hoffert
Goose Chase monastery, actually, because the goose Chase road.

00;04;27;09 - 00;04;29;11
Murray Dueck
Oh, I thought you said goose step monastery.

00;04;29;18 - 00;04;30;19
Joshua Hoffert
Goose chase.

00;04;30;24 - 00;04;32;17
Murray Dueck
That. Yeah. Different. Totally different.

00;04;32;18 - 00;05;03;24
Joshua Hoffert
Totally. They're totally different. Yeah. So, you can always take a look at them on. They have a website and there's a documentary on YouTube you can watch of theirs. But just just, wonderful. Small little monastery. Wonderful. Three. There's three monks there. You know, Father Luke. Father, Jean Baptiste and Father Nathaniel. And, you know, the irreverent is what the best way to describe the best monks are very irreverent.

00;05;03;25 - 00;05;41;08
Joshua Hoffert
You know, you see that in the desert. Fathers and mothers, and, they, they have just kind of it's interesting that the most, the most deeply, as we might say, the most deeply spiritual people we meet have a sense of joy and wonder and playfulness about them, which you would think, you know, that kind of the, the, the, the I, they should they the idea that we have about these kind of people or that they would be very austere and disciplined and serious and grave in how they approach life.

00;05;41;08 - 00;06;21;23
Joshua Hoffert
But but what we actually find in some of the most deeply spiritual connected with the father's heart, these kind of people, they have this playful, joy filled nature to them. And, you know, subverts expectations in that sense. And I, I was it was kind of it was probably a couple of years ago, I, I finally started and I had read, obviously read the Bible and not, you know, a bunch of times, just constantly reading through and I so reading the, the letters of Paul in particular and even even reading the Gospels will say, let's start it.

00;06;21;23 - 00;06;48;22
Joshua Hoffert
Let's start with Paul, but we'll get to the Gospels that, Paul initially comes across as this kind of especially because the first picture of Paul is him persecuting the Christians in acts. Right? Paul comes across as this pretty disciplined, severe man. You know, he's, he's releasing people to the devil. And he's. Yeah. And all this gear, like, man, this guy is harsh, right?

00;06;48;24 - 00;07;15;08
Joshua Hoffert
But then you start seeing his greetings and and his his final parting words, and you start realizing that Paul carried a great affection, a deep affection for the people that he walked with. And it it's it's like, wait, I'm starting to see a guy. And then you start reading Ephesians three through the the lens of I've he's encountered the love of God and his life's been radically transformed.

00;07;15;08 - 00;07;48;00
Joshua Hoffert
You start reading Ephesians three and you're going or Ephesians one two, you know, the whole book of Ephesians, but especially the first, three chapters are going, man, this guy is actually caught a vision of something other worldly, and he is a joy filled man. And then you see, like Jesus, I think Jesus in kind of in the, the classic, characterization, you know, what were the did you ever see those old videos that it was a church that did them?

00;07;48;02 - 00;07;58;15
Joshua Hoffert
I had been like ten, 15 years ago, maybe even longer, where they take some of the old, old grainy films of Jesus and he's walking you.

00;07;58;19 - 00;07;58;28
Murray Dueck
Voice.

00;07;58;28 - 00;08;07;13
Joshua Hoffert
Over. Yeah. Peter, I saw what you did last night, you know, and Jesus, you were smoking a cigaret, you know.

00;08;07;16 - 00;08;11;07
Murray Dueck
You my favorite weight is Jesus is sitting on the rock, and Peter comes up. Jesus.

00;08;11;07 - 00;08;12;14
Joshua Hoffert
I thought we were.

00;08;12;16 - 00;08;18;23
Murray Dueck
You were playing hide and seek. And Jesus goes, I only told you that, Peter to get rid of you. You know.

00;08;18;26 - 00;08;24;07
Joshua Hoffert
But that's kind of the popular characterization of how he's he's Jesus is very.

00;08;24;07 - 00;08;26;08
Murray Dueck
I can't take any more of your knowing.

00;08;26;11 - 00;08;48;01
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly. Yeah. But then but then you start reading the I like you try and peel back the lens of how you've been conditioned to read things and read it as it as it is, and go, man, Jesus. Like, there's at one point, I think it's in John 17. It says he rejoices greatly in the spirit and utters this beautiful prayer, and you're going.

00;08;48;01 - 00;08;52;17
Joshua Hoffert
And the and the term rejoice greatly means he spins about and dances wildly.

00;08;52;17 - 00;08;55;29
Murray Dueck
Oh, wow. I didn't know that was that. Yeah, yeah.

00;08;56;02 - 00;09;16;22
Joshua Hoffert
And so you're going well that you know, and sometimes we think he's rejoicing greatly is, oh, Heavenly Father. Right. But he's actually a very and and the book of Hebrews says he was anointed with the oil of gladness beyond that of all of his companions. So you're gone. This is a dude that was known as being very exuberantly full of joy.

00;09;16;25 - 00;09;38;24
Joshua Hoffert
So. So then we get to the point where we read, like Matthew six, where it says, don't be anxious or be anxious for nothing. And we think Jesus is going, don't be anxious, guys. If you're anxious, that's evil. And he's going, hey, why don't be anxious? Because your father's going to care for you, right? You can you can go back to the the whole series we did on Bridal Paradigm in Scripture.

00;09;38;24 - 00;09;39;06
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;09;39;10 - 00;10;06;18
Joshua Hoffert
To see Scripture is not nearly as, you know, it's not what you think it is. Essentially when we when we're through the bridal paradigm stuff and, and so, you know, we look at that kind of stuff when we go, how what can we the people that know the father, the walk with the father that we see full of joy and exuberant life and everything and life and life abundantly.

00;10;06;20 - 00;10;18;15
Joshua Hoffert
We want to learn. How did they get there? What's the path? And and there's always the it's like it's like the, the the formula doesn't change in that sense.

00;10;18;17 - 00;10;44;07
Murray Dueck
And and so I think, you know, especially what we're going to look at today because I mean, I keep seeing that, you know, as we're talking about how we can read Scripture and it's so easy to go back to, you know, excuse my example, but it's the vision I visual, I see in my mind of Monty Python and the search for the Holy Grail and they see God and and they go, oh, I have I have a task for you in these dark times.

00;10;44;07 - 00;10;52;07
Murray Dueck
And Arthur goes, good idea. Oh, Lord. Because of course it's a good idea. Like, and what are you doing that we're devoting our eyes. Oh, God. Oh! Stop it. Yeah.

00;10;52;09 - 00;10;52;22
Joshua Hoffert
Those are both.

00;10;52;22 - 00;10;54;19
Murray Dueck
Psalms. They're so depressing.

00;10;54;24 - 00;10;56;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right.

00;10;56;23 - 00;11;16;25
Murray Dueck
But it's so easy to to get God is, you know, even what we're going to look at today, it's it's very easy to read it to the lens of task master, I've got to measure up. You know, I've got to put another notch in my Bible. You know, I've and and, you know, there's this quote I read and I think I quoted it last week from a Catholic saint.

00;11;16;25 - 00;11;32;00
Murray Dueck
I have no idea who it is. And, you know, I'm going to do a little research, but but in prayer, you know, God told her just to waste your life in prayer and his comment to her was, it's easier to get laborers to work than it is children to play with.

00;11;32;03 - 00;11;33;15
Joshua Hoffert
And right.

00;11;33;18 - 00;11;50;14
Murray Dueck
But we're talking about her prayer life here, right? And and, you know, for you charismatics who are highly offended by that, again, you know, Rick Joyner, who I you know, I still have a great deal of respect for. He's written like 40 books, you know, and he's driving one day to go write a book. And God's system. Rick, I can get anyone to write a book.

00;11;50;17 - 00;12;07;23
Murray Dueck
I just want you to be my friend. Right. And, you know, he's on Sid Roth, and he says to Sid Roth, I don't know how to be God's friend. I've worked for him for 40 years. I just I don't know how to do it, but but that really is the call. And and I and it you know, it it struck me when, you know, I'm reading this little Catholic book and prayer, as you can see.

00;12;07;25 - 00;12;20;21
Murray Dueck
And, and he says, what is the calling of the disciples? And, you know, if you stop and think about that, what is it? What's the calling of the disciples? You know what it says in Mark, the calling of disciples is to be with him, right?

00;12;20;24 - 00;12;21;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;12;21;03 - 00;12;35;10
Murray Dueck
That's the calling of the disciples. That's right. Word for word. But I would suggest that if I had to come up with that on my own, I would say, well, it's a it's the I'm sure I could list a whole bunch of things rather than that. But that's what prayer is, right to be with him.

00;12;35;14 - 00;12;36;02
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;12;36;02 - 00;12;38;23
Murray Dueck
And well, and that's.

00;12;38;25 - 00;12;39;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Go ahead.

00;12;39;23 - 00;12;42;05
Murray Dueck
No, no, I saw was kind of just some of that up right there.

00;12;42;12 - 00;13;16;21
Joshua Hoffert
Well that that's the I think what the, the, the thing that I'm looking at in the, in present we'll talk about just present professional ministry paradigms. And you get this like how to preach a better sermon and how to prepare content more effectively and how to communicate more effectively and all this kind of stuff. Right. There's this there's resources that are geared for the professional pastor, the professional preacher.

00;13;16;24 - 00;13;42;13
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And or, or people that will use the language that. Well, my calling is to be a preacher. Right. Well, yeah. I mean, that's everybody's calling, like everybody's called to preach the gospel, right? I love the the kind of the old, even though it's apocryphal, the old thing. That's the adage that's attributed to Saint Francis. It's apocryphal, but he kind of embodied it, that if you preach the gospel and if you need to use words.

00;13;42;15 - 00;13;45;00
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I think John Chrysostom said that to.

00;13;45;02 - 00;14;06;29
Joshua Hoffert
The. Well, I know people say Francis did. I know Francis didn't actually say that. So it is it is an apocryphal quote. But he did say things that were kind of like that. So anyway, yeah. So maybe Chrysostom did say that. So anyway, my point is there's a, there's this trend that's probably not a new trend, but it's it's very present.

00;14;06;29 - 00;14;30;05
Joshua Hoffert
I get these ads on Facebook and stuff like that. It's like, yes, like here's a, you know, here's the best way to teach a sermon. And if you need, if you're having trouble, here's the ten things to consider. And and you know, the the hard part about being a pastor is the demand of content creation. And, you know, you've got to be able to you got to figure out how to how to preach when you don't want to preach anymore.

00;14;30;08 - 00;14;54;12
Joshua Hoffert
And you're like, these are all geared towards the professional pastor and helping them navigate their position. And and it's like, where's the conversation about how to be a friend of God? Yeah. And and that's the thing that I think that I, I look at and I go, it I there seems to be a missing gap. And then you get the characterization of, you know, the ten rules of the spiritual life or, or maybe it will say the disciplines.

00;14;54;15 - 00;15;13;18
Joshua Hoffert
Right, more broadly speaking. And or the disciplines will help quiet your inner life. And so it'll, you know, if you're feeling if you're dealing with anxiety, spend time in silence, silence and solitude and quiet your thoughts and and it's like the, the selling point is mental health.

00;15;13;21 - 00;15;16;15
Murray Dueck
And yeah, that's that's a real shame.

00;15;16;17 - 00;15;18;04
Joshua Hoffert
And which is because, like, you know, we.

00;15;18;06 - 00;15;19;19
Murray Dueck
Were never the point of it.

00;15;19;24 - 00;15;39;13
Joshua Hoffert
No, we're talking about we were talking a bit about this with, Michael Sullivan. When it talks about he talked about the, oh, I can't remember what the what the word is, but that he's talking about the the word for sound mind. Right. In, software now is that word was maybe something like that.

00;15;39;16 - 00;16;04;22
Joshua Hoffert
And how the word literally means can can be roughly translated as mental health. But the result of the mental health is a result of the spirit that God has given to you. Right? It's not the result of the disciplines that you do. Is that God's and infuse you with his nature. And anyway, so so the selling point of the disciplines then turns into dealing with anxiety and stress and the cares of this world.

00;16;04;22 - 00;16;45;17
Joshua Hoffert
When the, the, the disciplines were really about softening your heart to know the father and to be present with him. So I, I just go when this this kind of professional context for ministry leaders, this developed and has and has become an industry and to unto itself is like the I mean, I get it, there's pressures of life and all that stuff in these positions, but where's the context for being a friend to God and walking that out and as, as, as we were, referencing, you know, earlier on the recording when we were talking about Patreon, side note you should join our Patreon.

00;16;45;17 - 00;17;07;01
Joshua Hoffert
You can find that in the description there. You know, that's a great, a little a great little thing. It supports us. And we you get access to, our, our kind of pre pre-roll chats as we're playing the episode and thinking off the cuff and, you know, things that we might not say, as publicly as buying the, on the Patreon.

00;17;07;01 - 00;17;32;14
Joshua Hoffert
So, you get to engage with us, but, our, our quote from our, one of our Bradley Valens way, I think was, is that subscriber's name was, putting out a, put a comment out about a book and that we kind of sterilize prayer and we lose the intimacy vibe when we do that. And we do that with in the professional pastor sense, right?

00;17;32;14 - 00;17;53;05
Joshua Hoffert
We sterilize the position so that nothing can go wrong. And here's all the things you need to consider. And it's like, well, where's the whole conversation about life? And life abundantly. And and I think I find that lacking in a lot of the resources I have, the podcasts I've that kind of come up on my, on my feed and the things that people are sharing and everything.

00;17;53;05 - 00;18;15;26
Joshua Hoffert
I'm like, I get it. People are struggling and pastors are struggling and ministry leaders are struggling and vocational ministers are struggling. And that's fine, I get it. And you're trying to put out resources for them. I don't know that the resources you're putting out are actually addressing the root of the problem. However, there's a content machine we've got to create content for.

00;18;15;26 - 00;18;44;00
Joshua Hoffert
Well, yeah, but you created the machine itself. You know, like if you create the machine and then you need to feed the machine and you're burned out because you're feeding the machine you created. Don't just try and find better coping mechanisms to keep the machine running. Question whether the machine needs to be there in the first place. So that's that's my little rant for, before we talk about, rule number three on the ten rules of the spiritual life.

00;18;44;02 - 00;18;46;26
Murray Dueck
Okay. Well, I'll maybe give I'll give you a little rant to. How about that?

00;18;47;04 - 00;18;48;26
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. We're good at that, right? Ranting.

00;18;48;26 - 00;19;08;24
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Well, you know, it's a lot to think about. And so, you know, a first off, you know, why do we need this machine. And so I'm going to, you know go Kerry's minute I'm going to go Karis meadow Doc's on you here. Which is so the Keras the charismatic part. So you know you.

00;19;08;24 - 00;19;09;12
Joshua Hoffert
Know.

00;19;09;15 - 00;19;28;03
Murray Dueck
Sean. Yeah. You know Josh and I you know, the one thing we do is try to teach people how to hear God's voice and that that, that that's an important thing. And and if you don't have that, you know, what do you need? You need to get content, you know, and and so, you know, let me just throw this out there.

00;19;28;03 - 00;19;50;25
Murray Dueck
So, I didn't I didn't come up with this thought, but it's a brilliant thought. So I have a friend of mine who teaches in churches. He teaches churches to hear God's voice, and he often goes in the churches where half the congregation is like, what is this? You know, sure. And and so often he'll let people in the congregation say, how you how can you hear God's face and his, you know, in these churches that, you know, are trying to deal with dispensationalism?

00;19;50;25 - 00;20;05;14
Murray Dueck
And he'll say to them, well, do you believe in conviction? And you'll have to say yes to that, of course. Right. If you're a Christian. Right. And they'll go, yes. Well, do you believe God can convict you of a certain sin done at a certain time in a certain place? Yes. Do you believe God could, lead you what to do about that?

00;20;05;14 - 00;20;22;25
Murray Dueck
To repent. Who? To talk to you? Yes. Well, isn't that God speaking? And they'll go. I never thought of it that way. Right, right. And then he he puts anything, which is good. So isn't it interesting we tell everybody that God is a good father? He's ABBA, but he can only talk to us when we're bad. Does that make any sense?

00;20;22;25 - 00;20;48;10
Murray Dueck
Like, you know, there's a theological catch 22, but if you remove a person or a relationship with God, which I personally think even evangelicals who say they don't believe God speaks today will say still small voice I felt led to pray for they sure believe God speaks. They just don't use the language. But if you remove all of that, all you suddenly have then is a list of rules you have to live up to.

00;20;48;12 - 00;21;08;04
Murray Dueck
Well, if you can't communicate that to God, he's a general that has given you a set of rules. To do that, you now must obey because the general is off the field. What do you do? You follow orders. Yeah. And the problem is, if you do that, how is God a father to you? And and then when you do that, it can lead you into all kinds of bad ways.

00;21;08;04 - 00;21;26;28
Murray Dueck
Because if you're just following orders, living up to the orders really, really important and then stuffing everything down in your heart and not looking at it because it's about your will to obey, becomes your criterion of holiness. Rather than having God work on your heart and make you like him.

00;21;27;01 - 00;21;27;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;21;28;00 - 00;21;34;03
Murray Dueck
And that's a completely different form of Christianity that. Yeah. Okay. So now with that, I had to get that point out of the way.

00;21;34;03 - 00;21;34;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;21;34;12 - 00;21;53;29
Murray Dueck
It's good point number two that okay. So so when we're talking then about this formation then you know, what is hearing God's voice. What what does that do to you. God is you know, the old saying is God loves us the way we are, but he loves us too much to leave us the way we are, you know?

00;21;53;29 - 00;21;54;27
Joshua Hoffert
Right? That's right.

00;21;54;29 - 00;22;14;22
Murray Dueck
And that'll bring us around to where we are at today. That and that's part of the problem when I'm going to take a shot at the second thing you said is that, when, when either a, you're pumping people just for material to preach. Right. It's just about material making a good sermon. It's about a good sermon, rather than encountering God.

00;22;14;22 - 00;22;41;13
Murray Dueck
So point one like that, you know, that's ineffable. I'll just throw in a funny got a nice word I like today. But point number two, you know, when when prayer becomes about my experience of, of of an emotional experience of joy, which, you know, I like experiencing joy and I, I'm sure most of you do. I'm still mad that my hockey team got knocked out of the playoffs.

00;22;41;13 - 00;22;46;28
Murray Dueck
And the team that's going to make it has Vancouver Canucks former goaltender as their manager. It makes me really mad.

00;22;46;28 - 00;22;49;11
Joshua Hoffert
And I and I just don't care at all. So yeah.

00;22;49;11 - 00;22;53;16
Murray Dueck
So is Josh. Is is he purified or is he numb?

00;22;53;18 - 00;22;56;03
Joshua Hoffert
Everyone please comment.

00;22;56;06 - 00;23;17;12
Murray Dueck
So but but see the thing is that prayer of the heart, what it should do. Like so people do mindfulness. And there's a lot of studies going on now when they teach mindfulness. Josh, you mentioned this last week that people have stuff coming up, their feelings, sometimes more anxious, they're feeling more worried. They're like, well, this mindfulness is supposed to deal with this.

00;23;17;14 - 00;23;42;20
Murray Dueck
Well, if and even in the church, if you're teaching that prayer is an emotional control valve, that if I pray, I should always feel good, well, that's not really the purpose of prayer. The purpose of prayer is to shape you into the image of Christ, right? And to actually deal with some of the stuff from the fall that is at our heart, you know, our passions, which would be the the Orthodox way I remember, I'm sorry, I can't remember his name right now.

00;23;42;20 - 00;23;51;02
Murray Dueck
He did this great three series on mysticism. If it comes to me, if you want to know, I'll find it. But he said, Orthodox guy, what do you support his.

00;23;51;09 - 00;23;51;26
Joshua Hoffert
Aaron is.

00;23;51;27 - 00;23;57;01
Murray Dueck
Openness. Yes. I think it was erroneous. Bernstein. Bernstein. Aaron.

00;23;57;04 - 00;23;59;11
Joshua Hoffert
Aaron. Irony or something? Yeah. Yeah.

00;23;59;13 - 00;24;15;28
Murray Dueck
You should all watch. It's quite brilliant. And he goes, my first I wrote my first paper on on the debtor. I was so excited to do it. Oh, yeah. And, and I wrote this paper and I said the monks went out to this desert for quiet and peace and to see the sun setting, and there would be rest.

00;24;16;00 - 00;24;17;21
Murray Dueck
And his teacher goes rubbish.

00;24;17;26 - 00;24;21;13
Joshua Hoffert
And I pretty sure his teacher was actually Benedict Award, if I remember the star.

00;24;21;14 - 00;24;22;11
Murray Dueck
Right. Oh, interesting.

00;24;22;11 - 00;24;28;14
Joshua Hoffert
Who wrote that? Dude? Does the major translation of the Desert Fathers has been. I'm pretty sure he said that was his teacher was I.

00;24;28;14 - 00;24;50;18
Murray Dueck
Think so, I think so I was rubbish. They went out there to fight, right? Yeah, they went out to see what's in their hearts and see the kingdom come and allow God to change them into their image. The desert is an arena, you know, and a spiritual battle. Right. And and we've lost that. If prayer becomes just satiating my need rather than information.

00;24;50;21 - 00;24;51;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;24;51;20 - 00;25;17;15
Murray Dueck
You know, it is this happy, joyful God who dances with us, but in the midst of our own recreation. And that's right. And that brings us back around to, you know, what we're talking about today and why these points are there where prayer can be dry and hard and stuff's going on. And because, you know, I would say that prayer excavates the soul, that there's stuff in there that that that needs to be healed.

00;25;17;15 - 00;25;34;06
Murray Dueck
It needs to come out. Right. You know, as Jesus said, it's not the things you eat that defile a person. It's the things that come out of the heart. Well, you know, as we pray, God's going to heal that. And if there's rocks in the river and it's blocking the pipe, you know, the Lord's going to get at those rocks.

00;25;34;06 - 00;25;40;22
Murray Dueck
And, and so we have this very dynamic relationship. So I lost me there for better. Did I lose.

00;25;40;22 - 00;25;45;11
Joshua Hoffert
You? Yeah, I lost, but it should have still been recording. So you just keep talking.

00;25;45;14 - 00;26;07;24
Murray Dueck
That's I'm really good at that. So so anyway, so so with that let's go back to our points there because it's, it's it's important as to why these points of prayer are here. Yeah. Because because prayer is a journey of transition to be to become like Christ. And and that journey is. A lifetime of change.

00;26;08;01 - 00;26;29;25
Joshua Hoffert
Well, I and I think as we're going into the points right labor with endurance and prayer, I think that and I was because I was thinking about this as we were talking Mary, that if I in my marriage, my only desire in talking with my wife and communicating with my wife is that she makes me feel good. Right.

00;26;29;25 - 00;26;49;22
Joshua Hoffert
I've made her an object and I don't have a relationship with her anymore. I have a need from her right. But if my desire is to become the best husband I can so that she, as a wife, can become the best wife that she can, and that we can become the best parents and the best version of ourselves.

00;26;49;22 - 00;27;07;08
Joshua Hoffert
Right? We grow and change and mold. Then I don't just I'm not asking her to placate me and speak good, kind, joyful words and make me happy all the time. I'm actually going, well, how do I fulfill her need? I'm not thinking, how does she fulfill my need, right?

00;27;07;10 - 00;27;08;27
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that's a good way to say it.

00;27;09;00 - 00;27;28;11
Joshua Hoffert
Well, so it it it really flips it where I'm not going. God, I need you to come to me. That's obvious. Right? But as he comes to me, I start to realize there's things in me that bring pleasure to him. And there's things in me that don't bring pleasure to him.

00;27;28;13 - 00;27;30;14
Murray Dueck
Are they actually keep me away from him.

00;27;30;15 - 00;27;31;14
Joshua Hoffert
Or keep me away from him?

00;27;31;18 - 00;27;32;28
Murray Dueck
I need to be healed.

00;27;33;01 - 00;27;55;13
Joshua Hoffert
I have I mean, I could get into this, but I think we'll save it for a different one. I think I believe that I have the, the one of the greatest capacities of my life as a human being created in the image of God is to cause an immeasurable amount of pain to the father's heart. Oh, I have that ability.

00;27;55;15 - 00;27;56;14
Murray Dueck


00;27;56;17 - 00;28;20;25
Joshua Hoffert
I mean, any child has that ability with their parent. I think I have that ability with God I can cut and you can see it like his that you got it. It even says at one point, right, that he regretted making Saul king. Right. This sounds like man, that's a that's turmoil. Right? I'm not we're not talking about the the no no comment on the whether it was a good idea or bad idea or anything like that.

00;28;20;25 - 00;28;46;16
Joshua Hoffert
It's just that the father was wrestling with what Saul was doing. It was obviously was going mad. This is just not good, right? So. So I think the human being has the capacity to cause an immeasurable amount of pain to the father's heart. Every time we turn away from him, because his great longing is for us. And there's reasons, you know, I think I can support that from Scripture and experiences in my own life.

00;28;46;18 - 00;29;06;11
Joshua Hoffert
But that also means that we have the capacity to cause an immeasurable amount of joy to the father, as well. And and it's immeasurable because it's the father's heart. Right? We can't ever measure how his what his response is. It's it's absolutely, completely impossible for us to measure that because he's immeasurable. And, and so I can create joy.

00;29;06;12 - 00;29;25;07
Joshua Hoffert
And I think, I think the reason why, all of heaven says all of heaven rejoices when one sinner repents. Right? I think the reason why is because of the father's rejoicing, because one turn causes an immeasurable no joy to the father. So all of heaven rejoices because the father is rejoicing, right? They enter into the joy, right?

00;29;25;07 - 00;29;47;01
Joshua Hoffert
This is the Jesus talks about the parable of the servants who enter into the joy of their master. And and so we catch this in a much different way than just. But it goes back to we've talked about this a lot, Basil the Great's three dispositions, right? Someone comes to the to serve God out of fear of retaliation or fear punishment, but they shouldn't stay there.

00;29;47;07 - 00;30;06;16
Joshua Hoffert
That might be where they come in, right? Oh my goodness. I'm realizing I've caused an immeasurable amount of grief to the father, and I'm guilty of the most heinous crimes and all of that. Right? And all of a sudden I'm hit with his immeasurable fear, this deep shame and sadness, that right. And but that's not where you stay, right?

00;30;06;16 - 00;30;24;01
Joshua Hoffert
Because you catch a vision of what he's like. And so what we're talking about with the ten rules is, you don't think it may be Psalm 42, right where David says, I pour out my life or I pour myself out when he's struggling with knowing I got my I'm I'm white as the deer pants for water. So my soul pants for you.

00;30;24;02 - 00;30;44;04
Joshua Hoffert
When will you come to me? I'm going to dry and thirsty land I pour my life out to you. Right. So how do you pour your life out? Well, another one, Matthew five and six. Go into the secret place. And there the father who is in secret will see you in secret and reward you openly. Right. Well, how do I get into the secret place?

00;30;44;07 - 00;31;12;29
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And Jesus gives a lot of instruction there. But what we're codifying here in the ten rules are, how do I direct my life in such a way that on a daily basis, I can enter into that secret place and know him? Or how do I pour my life out towards him? Right? The banks of the river? How do they how are they structured in my life to cause the water to flow in a way that will be helpful and beneficial, not in a way that causes a dam that creates a stagnant flood.

00;31;13;02 - 00;31;30;21
Joshua Hoffert
So how does how do the banks of the river, the ten rules that we're talking about are the banks of the river helping the water to flow to the place it naturally is destined to, rather than getting stuck, getting mired, becoming a bog, becoming stagnant, water filled with bacteria, all that kind of stuff. We want the water to flow.

00;31;30;21 - 00;31;53;20
Joshua Hoffert
So how do we do that? Well, we we cover points one and two. Which point? One to seek self renunciation. Point two is acceptable. No results. We covered that last week. Point three labor with endurance and prayer. And and that's that. When you labor with endurance in prayer, you're not you've you've released the need for an outcome which we'll talk about in 0.4 as well.

00;31;53;23 - 00;32;23;00
Joshua Hoffert
But but you, you labor with endurance because just like I labored with endurance in pursuing my wife, going through the process of marriage, raising kids and everything because I saw something so attractive, so beautiful that I couldn't help but pursue it. Right. We labor with endurance because we've caught a vision of something. That's why we labor with endurance, and we labor with endurance, not because it's the right thing to do.

00;32;23;02 - 00;32;45;05
Joshua Hoffert
We labor with endurance because we want more of him, and we can only want more of a thing. We've seen all right, I don't I don't mean physically scene. I mean, we've we've been arrested like like, Isaiah, in Isaiah six ready. He says, I saw the Lord high and lifted up, and the train of his robe filled the temple.

00;32;45;05 - 00;33;02;19
Joshua Hoffert
He caught a vision of something. Never describes what he looks like, right? Never describes the appearance of God. He describes the impact of the appearance of God. He doesn't go. This is what he looked like. He goes, this is what moved me. I'm woe is me. I'm a man under. I'm undone. I'm a man of unclean lips. And then here I am.

00;33;02;21 - 00;33;24;24
Joshua Hoffert
Send me right. We see the the progression of I've seen him I I'm undone my whole life is is meaningless at this point. And I'm reconstituted. And I found a message because I've seen him right now because he looks a certain way. But because my heart's been arrested by something I've seen. And so you labor with endurance because you've seen something of the father's heart.

00;33;24;26 - 00;33;45;02
Joshua Hoffert
You've encountered something of his heart. You've been arrested by something of what he's like. And so when you're doing that, the words in the particular, the particular agenda we're talking about, right, in the ten rules are concentrate on the words of the prayer slowly. This is just practical advice, right? Follow the rhythm of your own breathing slowly.

00;33;45;04 - 00;34;06;20
Joshua Hoffert
Do not give up. Stand firm and be. Be patient. And, And I know for the for the context of that, when it comes to the daily practice that Father Luke teaches in the monastery is that they spend, I think, 45 minutes praying the Jesus Prayer and 45 minutes, actually, they start with lectio to be in a 45 minutes of lecture to be done, 45 minutes of the Jesus prayer.

00;34;06;20 - 00;34;27;26
Joshua Hoffert
Right when they get up in the morning before they do their first service in the morning. I like 5 a.m. or something. So I know that's part of the context for that. So don't give up. Stand firm and be patient. And and the context of the words. Concentrate on the words of the prayer. Slowly follow the rhythm of your own breathing.

00;34;27;26 - 00;34;59;15
Joshua Hoffert
Slowly. These are all practical, practical suggestions that we find throughout church history. Right. You can go to the Ignatian prayer as a Catholic. Ignatian prayers, and you'll find the same kind of instruction and, and, and, there's a book, by sovereignty of Essex and he's an Orthodox guy. Monk called His Life Is Mine, where I think the last chapter he talks about praying the Jesus prayer and, and gives really good instruction.

00;34;59;15 - 00;35;21;03
Joshua Hoffert
I think you can find the PDF online actually, of that one if you Google it saw for any of Essex. He was a monk, Eastern Orthodox monk, rabbit, Russian Orthodox actually. Yeah. And his life is mine. It's a great little book about the about the nature of the spiritual life. But these are all these kind of instructions are very practical instructions.

00;35;21;05 - 00;35;58;04
Joshua Hoffert
So. And concentrating on the words of the prayer, whatever your prayer, whatever the chosen prayer is, it could just be Jesus. Right? That's a good prayer, Jesus. But concentrating on the words of the prayer and slowing yourself down, and not to escape anxiety, but to direct your attention to something. And the goal of these kind of prayerful practices is not to check a box that say, I did my 45 minute, half an hour, one hour devotion today, but it's actually to train your heart to be aware.

00;35;58;07 - 00;36;21;08
Joshua Hoffert
That's really the goal. Is my heart is actually aware of the natural rhythm that it's inclined to God, and it's seeking him. Like you think about this when you when you start, when you start incorporating these kind of practices, what happens to you is that, you know, so you do that, you say it's like five, 6 a.m. whatever.

00;36;21;08 - 00;36;56;03
Joshua Hoffert
You spend some time, you're reading Scripture, putting yourself in Scripture, praying scripture. You're finding a chosen prayer that really impacts your heart. You're offering it to him, and then you know your time winding down your deep breakfast, get to work, all that kind of stuff, right? And then by the time about 10:11 a.m. rolls around, you actually start to think, I think most people who start this start to engage these practices, you actually start to think about how you miss that sense of peace and and solace of that embrace from the morning you reflect fondly on it, right?

00;36;56;03 - 00;37;19;15
Joshua Hoffert
You remember that you you remember that you've kind of removed yourself from that place. Oh, and and you look back fondly there of that, of that those moments in the morning. Right. Well, that's because your heart has been trained to point itself in an affectionate way. So what you're recognizing is that, oh, I miss him. I'm longing for him.

00;37;19;17 - 00;37;21;07
Murray Dueck
Amen. And that's that's.

00;37;21;07 - 00;37;44;18
Joshua Hoffert
Because your heart is now moving. Because the banks of the river are starting to flow, and it's going, oh, my heart's actually it wants more. And so we think about those, oh, I've fallen from that place of, you know, of spiritual integration with him or whatever. Right. The embrace of him, I lost it, I missed it. No. That's your heart reminding you that it yearns for him.

00;37;44;21 - 00;38;08;17
Joshua Hoffert
That's all right. And so you got so the response of those moments, you go, oh, like labor with endurance of prayer. I'm going to spend 30s pointing it and lifting it back up. Right. Because my heart's reminding me that it's fond for him and then that and and so what happens though is that people go, well, you know, the Bible says that Jacob, I think it's Jacob prayed seven times a day, right?

00;38;08;17 - 00;38;29;04
Joshua Hoffert
Or morning and evening while I pray. So we need to have the rule that we do that. Well, the, the the rule is the response of the passion. You know, the passion in the sense that you've got a vision of him, not the passion in the sense of the passions. Yes, that's what I mean. The rule is, in response to that, I've been arrested, and now my heart wants to flow a particular way.

00;38;29;06 - 00;38;51;22
Joshua Hoffert
And so I'm finding practices to help enable that. But instead, people tend to go, I'm going to schedule these times and that's fine. Right. But I'm going to schedule these times because the Bible tells me to. Well, no, the Bible tells you what people did in response to the coming of God. That's what the people did in response to it, not the rules that they laid out so that he would come.

00;38;51;25 - 00;39;15;18
Joshua Hoffert
They're the practices that they practice because he did come and they went, oh, man, I'm going to do this because I want to put myself in a place where I'm I'm with him. Right. So when your heart reminds you that you have an affection for him, then then you turn yourself to him. And so, you know, so, so in some practice, like, well, I'm going to put a reminder on my phone at 7:00 am, 10:00 am, noon, three.

00;39;15;18 - 00;39;38;10
Joshua Hoffert
Whatever. Right. It's like it's like, yeah, that's good. But the point is that your heart's actually aware and helping direct you because it's gone. I remember him, I'm fond of him. I'm an affectionate for him. So now let's put our heart back in that place. And. But understanding that dynamic is, is a bit tricky because, because our, our natural inclination can be shame, defeat.

00;39;38;10 - 00;39;56;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Guilt. Guilt. Right. But that's because we're still so prideful and arrogant. We've put ourselves at the center of of life and the universe, and it's like we're not what we're not here. And your heart's try to remind you. Put him at the center. Put him at the center. Right. And that and that. That voice is really still silent.

00;39;56;23 - 00;40;26;04
Joshua Hoffert
Small, right. It's never demanding the voice. The shame can be demanding. Yeah, but the voice of I'm longing for him is never demanding. It's soft and it's tender and it's affectionate because it's your heart going. I've gotten used to something. So that's where the endurance and prayer, when we talk about that, that's really what we mean is you're you're creating the environment that your heart naturally longs for and then reminds you of.

00;40;26;11 - 00;40;43;11
Joshua Hoffert
And you do that, you know, at an intentional time, maybe in the morning or in the evening or whatever, but it's not so that you have a thing you've accomplished. It's so that you have a life that you're living and directing in a particular way that makes sense for.

00;40;43;13 - 00;41;01;17
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I keep thinking of the Shula great woman here in the. Oh, sure. In in Song of Songs. Right. Where, where she doesn't get up and he comes, knocks on the door, she doesn't get up. And then what happens? Her heart longs for him, and that's right. And, and to understand that, that, you know, where does Christ live?

00;41;01;24 - 00;41;13;05
Murray Dueck
He dwells in our heart by faith. Right? Right. And, you know, he could break that whole thing down. I think maybe we have in the past, but it's it's it's important to realize that that longing is the holy Spirit.

00;41;13;11 - 00;41;13;22
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;41;13;25 - 00;41;25;01
Murray Dueck
And and and to realize, because no one can come to God unless God draws him. Right. So this drawing is something we develop and, and and just to let it breathe like that or.

00;41;25;02 - 00;41;32;15
Joshua Hoffert
Something that develops in us, let's say it that way. It's something that develops in us. It's less something we develop. It's something the Holy Spirit, the grabs right?

00;41;32;17 - 00;41;57;24
Murray Dueck
That's right. So, and maybe I'll just give you guys a quick what I do sometimes, like if you're like, like, oh, I don't know, like, like if you're, you know, sometimes if you, if you go back and listen to our episode on Luxio. Davina, that would be a good one to review because you if you spend a little time in Scripture, I'm sure you're all aware at some point a verse you know, really resonates with it, jumps off the page, right?

00;41;57;24 - 00;42;23;12
Murray Dueck
It's something or we all have a verse that we carry with us, you know, it's a life verse. Oh, well, sometimes when you're, you're, you're reading a passage and you just slow down and you really pay attention a word or a thought to even a scene might really jump off. Right. And so what I like to do then is I like to take that with me the rest of the day as, as a short little prayer.

00;42;23;14 - 00;42;42;01
Murray Dueck
And, because my heart was touched so that my heart was stirred and the Holy Spirit did that. And so, you know, Paul tells us with Thanksgiving, you know, present your request to God with thank be, you know, do not be drunk with the one, but be filled with the spirit. Sing songs, spiritual songs, right, with Thanksgiving.

00;42;42;03 - 00;43;02;12
Murray Dueck
So one of the ways to keep this heart hot, if we want to, we want to go back to that is I is I let's say I'm doing Psalm 139 and it happens to jump off the page at me. All my days are written in his book, and that just really strikes me today. Well, then throughout the day, I'm going to come back to that one little sentence.

00;43;02;15 - 00;43;21;13
Murray Dueck
And really, when I stop and and just go, thank you. Jesus. Right. You know, thank you, Lord. And I'm just going to stay there because that's, you know, what is prayer? Prayer is turning our being to God. Right. And as a child, so that that's one way for those of you that don't have a practice, that's one way you could do.

00;43;21;13 - 00;43;24;15
Murray Dueck
It's pretty easy, right?

00;43;24;17 - 00;43;29;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's a yeah, absolutely. It's and it's a it's a simple practice but.

00;43;29;03 - 00;43;30;00
Murray Dueck
It's yeah it's a simple.

00;43;30;00 - 00;43;50;00
Joshua Hoffert
Practice. It's going to come up again a couple times during the day. And the trick is paying attention to it when it comes up and, and the paying attention doesn't mean an hour or two hours. It means a simple giving of yourself to the moment. Yeah, that's that's really what I think. What the Holy Spirit's trying to help bubble up to the surface.

00;43;50;03 - 00;43;57;07
Joshua Hoffert
And, and, you know, the, the I'm thinking of the great examples in, The Way of the Pilgrim, and the Pilgrim continues his way. Right.

00;43;57;07 - 00;43;59;04
Murray Dueck
The Greek, for sure. I was thinking that, too.

00;43;59;09 - 00;44;27;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Where? And that's the that's the Russian Orthodox prayer manual for the Jesus prayer. And there's some good things in there. There's some weird things in there, too. As with all, all kinds of stuff, you know, but there's some good things in there where, the, the I'm, I'm, in one sense thinking of some of the, the practices that have developed about prayer from the stories in The way of the Pilgrim.

00;44;27;03 - 00;44;48;09
Joshua Hoffert
And I'm like, there's some funky monasteries that force you to pray in certain ways because they read the way of the Pilgrim. But anyway, where his whole the whole point of saying that Jesus prayer repeatedly in the way of the pilgrim is that your heart eventually becomes so accustomed to the prayer that it prays the prayer without conscious effort.

00;44;48;12 - 00;45;16;06
Joshua Hoffert
It's just naturally praying the prayer. And, you know, on a personal level, what I find my what I find happening to myself often is there are certain songs that have really captured my attention, you know, over, over, you know, over 25 years. Right? Like, and or even when I was a young boy, the, the old, holy and anointed one.

00;45;16;09 - 00;45;44;29
Joshua Hoffert
Right. That song. Right. That song, I, I, you know, love the especially the first refrain. Right of that song, the first verse, or and there's a couple other ones, but my point is, I find myself like, if I'm driving in the car and it's quiet, I'll find myself that I start to sing those songs. They start to come up and naturally rise up within me.

00;45;44;29 - 00;46;11;05
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And, maybe I'll hum the the music without realizing it, because my heart's been affected and it craves. And so it comes up in moments. And now the the again, the trick is, how do I pay attention to those moments and just be thankful for the moment? And which is what marriage, what you're saying is just going, thank you.

00;46;11;05 - 00;46;32;05
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And it might be the verse that's arrested your attention in the morning. Maybe it's the the prayer. Maybe it's the the song as it is in my case, sometimes I have a friend that told me you constantly would hear himself. Now, this may be weird for some people that he was Pentecostal in his background. So this he would be constantly speaking in tongues in the back of his mind.

00;46;32;07 - 00;47;03;05
Joshua Hoffert
So it's like if if he was quiet, he could hear himself doing that, Right. He's kind of got it going on always. And, so it would just bubble up to the surface, right? The thing that captures his attention about following Christ and, and so when we we set the stage for that, typically with a devoted time in the morning, and we tune back into that throughout the day and lectio Divina is a great way of doing that and being reminded of all that.

00;47;03;05 - 00;47;11;17
Joshua Hoffert
Right? That verse really impacted me today. So yeah, it's an excellent point. You ready to move on to point four?

00;47;11;20 - 00;47;12;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;47;12;14 - 00;47;19;27
Joshua Hoffert
Point four except to remain dry except activity.

00;47;20;00 - 00;47;23;04
Murray Dueck
Yeah. It's going to be another another episode on this one.

00;47;23;07 - 00;47;42;23
Joshua Hoffert
Might yeah. This might be all that we were able to get through. Is this one except to remain dry. Here's the points underneath except remain dry and we can talk about it. Do not seek feelings or emotions. Do not look for feeling good, quote unquote. Feeling good. Trials and afflictions are a way to turn to God. Constantly ask for the grace of the Holy Spirit.

00;47;42;25 - 00;47;45;21
Joshua Hoffert
So, Murray, what are your thoughts on that?

00;47;45;23 - 00;48;10;13
Murray Dueck
Wow. Well, you know, you know everybody. It's again, you know, it's you know, I'll quote this. I'll tell you a little bit. I remember reading this. Somebody else's mug. How did you learn how to pray? And he goes, the devil goes, the devil taught you to pray. He goes, yeah, the devil's pick it on me so much. I had to pray a lot.

00;48;10;16 - 00;48;28;08
Murray Dueck
And, the, the other bug. Same kind of thing. And you'll notice everybody that when we are going through something, we pray a lot, you know. Now, what are we praying about? You know, we're praying about our issues because we need help. But, but the that's first Peter.

00;48;28;08 - 00;48;33;00
Joshua Hoffert
Right. That's first Peter two. So one and two. Right. Trials produce perseverance.

00;48;33;00 - 00;48;55;06
Murray Dueck
That's right. Exactly. It. And so the thing is that, you know, as prayer as you know, again, you know, three stages of same basil, right? It's you know, you want to graduate beyond that, where you're praying because of a heart of love like to Shula, right? Woman. You want to you want to move in that direction. But periods of dryness.

00;48;55;08 - 00;49;19;09
Murray Dueck
If you've had those encounters of love right. If you've had that, you remember that. And and what happens? Those periods of dryness become things to you like, God, I'm really out, buddy. Help me out. I need help now, right? Like. But like, if you're not, if you haven't had those encounters. Right, a period of dryness can end up being.

00;49;19;09 - 00;49;35;20
Murray Dueck
Well, it doesn't work. I quit, right? I didn't get what I wanted, right? And it's because the self is on the throne. You hit a period of dryness. What are you going to do? You're probably going to stop because you're not getting what you want, right? But but if you've developed this sense and you which goes.

00;49;35;20 - 00;49;42;17
Joshua Hoffert
Back to point three then by the way, right. Like if that's if that's you, if Murray just described you just go back to point three.

00;49;42;19 - 00;50;11;24
Murray Dueck
Yeah. So so but once you, you realize that the I mean I would suggest every buddy read The Way of the Pilgrim right here. You know, that one. That's because there's things in the heart that that need to be dealt with. And. You know, it's. It. Boy, there's so much information flowing through my head right now. It's like I'm paging through a book here because I know, I know that, time is time is of the essence.

00;50;11;24 - 00;50;17;09
Murray Dueck
Currently.

00;50;17;11 - 00;50;34;08
Murray Dueck
So maybe, you know, maybe let me say this because I think this is the way most of us pray. And so I'll share an example. And maybe I said this before, but, you know, please forgive me. So because in Western culture, again, one of the things that we do is that I usually want to I want to have a big knowledge base, right.

00;50;34;08 - 00;50;52;15
Murray Dueck
So I can get the right answer to do something the right way. So and most of us pray like that, God, what am I supposed to do? What's the right answer? I need help, I, I me mind, I me my mind right so I remember but Western, you know, biblical culture is not like that, you know, not not least not when you're healthy.

00;50;52;22 - 00;51;12;05
Murray Dueck
The idea is to seek for the beloved, right? Because you know, the you know, the author and finisher of your faith. So I remember one time, you know, doing it wrong. I, you know, I started out good. I needed an answer. I'm walking in the country and I'm like, God, I need an answer. I'm trying to worship. I'm trying to get my mind off my problem.

00;51;12;05 - 00;51;30;14
Murray Dueck
But I'm really there because of my problem, because I need an answer. Right? Right. And so partway through, I yell at God, who taught my God what's the right thing to do? And I hear in my heart, what do you think of those trees over there? Those are nice trees, I'm like those like that has nothing to do with what I need.

00;51;30;17 - 00;51;47;12
Murray Dueck
So. Okay, let's start again. Okay? It's got to be me, right? So I worship, worship, worship. Think about problem, big problem. Start to freak out about a problem, right? What's the right answer? And the Lord goes, so what do you think of those bushes over there? Hey, those are nice bushes. And I'm like, what? And then hit me.

00;51;47;15 - 00;52;12;17
Murray Dueck
I could hear God speak. He just didn't want to talk about what I wanted to talk about. Right? Right. Because I wanted answers to my problems. Because that's why I was going to him. And, and and often I realize for me and other people who pray, I'm sure it's you two that we can get into a lot of condemnation, because it's like when I pray my agenda is to get answers to problems, to do things, and then I can't hear God.

00;52;12;17 - 00;52;31;25
Murray Dueck
God doesn't love me. I don't know what to do. What's wrong with me? Maybe, you know, we come up with all this stuff and you can get rid of a lot of that head noise by by doing this. If you're doing that, change the topic. Ask God about your friends, about your church, about anything. And if God talks to you, gives you an impression of feeling anything right, you can hear God.

00;52;32;00 - 00;52;56;07
Murray Dueck
He just doesn't want to talk about what you want to talk about yet, right? Because because we're pumping him for answers. He wants to be with us and have relationship and spend time together. Right? And eventually, as your prayer routine takes hold, that new way of thinking takes hold in you. Where, yeah, you go and present your requests and stuff, but something deeper begins to happen.

00;52;56;07 - 00;53;19;16
Murray Dueck
That relationship begins to form. You're there because of a person that you love, and you know even when it's dry, you remember those times. And it's the longing, like the Shula women, to to pursue the beloved. Right. And that, that starts to take root in you. But but building that it's a partnership. Right. So father Mike always says grace is a partnership.

00;53;19;17 - 00;53;36;08
Murray Dueck
It's he goes, it's like getting a suntan. If it's not sunny, you can't get a sun, dad. But if it's sunny and you stay inside the house and you don't go outside, you're also not getting a suntan. You got to have both, right? So on the one hand, these encounters, there's these divine moments of God, but in the other hand, we have to do our part.

00;53;36;11 - 00;53;58;09
Murray Dueck
You know, we've got to persevere in prayer. We have to heart this is what we're doing because God is worth it. Yeah. You know, and pursue. And so times of dryness really help it not make it about our needs. Our desires are what we want. When you push through times of dryness, what you're saying is this is worth it.

00;53;58;12 - 00;54;26;21
Murray Dueck
You know, who is it? Jeremiah, which is a prophet. I'm sorry. It's not your mind that even though there are no, you know, buds upon the vines, you know, no cattle in the stall. I will praise him. Right, right. So that's a developmental thing of maturity. And and, You know, I still remember a time when my, my kids were crying and I can't remember what it was for, but I tried to tell them, and it didn't work.

00;54;26;21 - 00;54;44;27
Murray Dueck
When you're older, you'll understand this. Do you think that help them? Not at all. And now that they're older, like, I don't know why I was freaking out about that. It makes those. It's right. But because it was need based, right. Sure. They didn't get their need, but but as you grow in a relationship, need based isn't the thing anymore.

00;54;44;29 - 00;55;14;24
Murray Dueck
And you realize that times of dryness are actually causing you to live out of your heart and pursue because you love. And those times of dryness show things in us that that need to come to the grass, their formation. All right. So, you could say in fruit bearing seasons, it's about externals. You're picking fruit. You know, God's favor is there in times of of of winter, it's roots going into the ground, the trees getting stronger.

00;55;14;24 - 00;55;37;24
Murray Dueck
It's going deeper. It's looking for water by its roots. Right. And and to see that not as punishment, not as abandonment, not as I don't know what I'm doing. I'm not doing what I want anymore. You know, those thoughts fall to the wayside eventually. At least they get quieter. Yeah, we should say they don't always fall entirely. And eventually you find something stronger and deeper in you than gesture.

00;55;37;24 - 00;55;45;09
Murray Dueck
Emotions you find in your spirit a remembrance of father. Yeah, a remembrance of the bridegroom.

00;55;45;12 - 00;55;45;21
Joshua Hoffert
Good way.

00;55;45;24 - 00;56;00;11
Murray Dueck
And you move out of that. And and that's, you know, a sign of some maturity, right? That's a sign of some growth that you're not just living out of need or emotion. Right. You're living out of because you love somebody, right?

00;56;00;13 - 00;56;00;24
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;56;00;24 - 00;56;12;11
Murray Dueck
And, and, you know, that goes back to Josh, what you said earlier about, you know, why do you do things for your wife? It fits right there. Yeah. You know, you you don't do things.

00;56;12;13 - 00;56;15;17
Murray Dueck
Because you're always going to get something out of it. You do things because you love.

00;56;15;21 - 00;56;16;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah that's right. Yeah.

00;56;16;28 - 00;56;28;13
Murray Dueck
And and that becomes a deeper, a deeper place. And I, and I would think, you know, everybody, we would want that with our spouses. Right. We would want that. And I God wants that with his spouse too. Right. So.

00;56;28;14 - 00;56;30;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Well I'm I.

00;56;30;02 - 00;56;31;01
Murray Dueck
Those are my thoughts.

00;56;31;01 - 00;56;44;14
Joshua Hoffert
There's, you know, it's interesting just going back to the Song of Solomon thing and, and kind of the universality of points like this. That's a new word I made up. I think the universality of these kind of points, the ten rules.

00;56;44;16 - 00;56;45;26
Murray Dueck
That that is a word.

00;56;45;28 - 00;57;14;06
Joshua Hoffert
It might be. Yeah. That, Madame Guion actually talks about this in her commentary on the Song of Songs, where she talks about the, it's essentially that the Shula might starts off by describing the scent of the beloved. Right. The first 1 or 2 chapters. She talks of quite a bit about that. But by the time you get to chapters six, seven and eight, she's talking about the presence of her beloved.

00;57;14;08 - 00;57;27;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And so the it's the, it's the to to Madame Guion she interpret it is but that's her interpretation is in the beginning. She's still addicted to the the the feeling of his presence.

00;57;27;05 - 00;57;27;17
Murray Dueck
Yes.

00;57;27;17 - 00;57;39;12
Joshua Hoffert
Right. So she's she goes to the perfume and the scent and he was like this, and he was like this. And then by the time you get to the end, she's describing actually what she does for the beloved.

00;57;39;20 - 00;57;40;16
Murray Dueck
Oh, isn't that interesting?

00;57;40;20 - 00;58;02;22
Joshua Hoffert
She talks about, hey, let's go into the garden and and we can we'll go and we'll go to the people and, and all this kind of stuff. Right. So who's this coming up out of the wilderness, leaning upon her beloved? All this stuff. Now, the it's fundamentally change. She's no longer going, hey, he smells so good. Now she's going, he's he's my he's everything to me.

00;58;02;25 - 00;58;26;03
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And and so she's like that. That's that transition from mature mature in terms of the spiritual life. Right. Mature I, I'm actually not in this because I get something out of it. I'm in this because I as I was saying earlier, because I've got a vision of him and I bring pleasure to him and that's beautiful. And I get to do this right.

00;58;26;03 - 00;58;36;18
Joshua Hoffert
And. Yeah. And, and I think Anthony the Great actually, in one sentence summed the whole thing up when he says, I no longer fear God, but I love him. For perfect love is cast out all fear.

00;58;36;24 - 00;58;37;29
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;58;38;01 - 00;59;01;17
Joshua Hoffert
And there's the big transition that takes a lifetime for Anthony's. Anthony's not going. I never feared him. He's going. I no longer fear him. Yeah. Because my, the the role of me coming to him has significantly changed because his love has so altered the landscape of my inner life. Right? I no longer fear him. Perfect love has cast out any fear for my heart.

00;59;01;19 - 00;59;30;18
Joshua Hoffert
And. And so I no longer come because I'm going. I get something out of this. And sometimes I think when it comes to some of the dynamics that you and I have got to be privy to and witness in the charismatic and Pentecostal circles is because there's so much heightened expectation in a worship service on the feels and the emotions, and we want to set the stage for, you know, soft worship music can evoke this kind of response.

00;59;30;18 - 00;59;59;08
Joshua Hoffert
And this is the stuff that's trained you. We're trained to do right. And there's nothing wrong with a good a good soft worship song, right? There's nothing wrong with it. But in in terms of culturally, it can it can help us form a, a precedent that says, oh, when I come to a place of encounter with God, I'm supposed to feel something profound.

00;59;59;11 - 01;00;23;23
Joshua Hoffert
And I'm supposed to have an emotional response. And so, God, I think it's his great delight to break that off of us and to break us of that and to and he talk like David talks about this too, and he says, I'm like a weaned child, right? I've been weaned off of these immature things. But the only way to do that is to remove them.

01;00;23;25 - 01;00;25;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, let's remove them.

01;00;25;20 - 01;00;27;03
Murray Dueck
The spirits of dryness.

01;00;27;03 - 01;00;47;25
Joshua Hoffert
And this is again the universality of it. We've got a bonus, the bishop talking about it, and we've got John of the cross talking about it. Right. Wildly different contexts in terms of where they are, but the same kind of thing. John of the cross, actually the, the word, the term dark night of the soul is he uses the term for soul.

01;00;47;25 - 01;01;17;06
Joshua Hoffert
That would be alternatively translated as sense dark night of the sense. Yeah. Because his point is the senses are tuned down and they're turned off because they, they're and they're actually, in, the enlargement of the heart. Right. The book that fathers or Zacharias argument. Right. Zacharias wrote about the teachings of softening and so on. But he talks about how God hides himself in order to hidden in order to reveal was hidden in the depths of man's heart.

01;01;17;08 - 01;01;37;26
Joshua Hoffert
And so for for that inner formation to happen, right, we have to come to the point where we're not approaching this so that we can feel good, or we can so we can have some kind of experience. Now present paradigm in prophetic ministry, like in, you know, like we need to have revelation so that we have a ministry.

01;01;38;01 - 01;02;00;15
Joshua Hoffert
So we need to have prayer so that revelation continues to happen. And, and that's a whole problem in and of itself. And if we were to actually kind of kind of listen to these kind of, or, accept to remain dry, that it might actually offer a pretty good corrective point to prophetic ministry.

01;02;00;17 - 01;02;03;19
Murray Dueck
Yeah. You know, it's that's a whole nother topic.

01;02;03;21 - 01;02;06;13
Joshua Hoffert
It's a whole nother talk. We've talked about that at great length as well.

01;02;06;15 - 01;02;25;24
Murray Dueck
You know, it's it's funny. I mean, it still makes me wrinkle a little bit when I read, like, I mean, everyone, you should. Oh, really? I would really suggest everyone get that classic book by Brother Lawrence, right? Oh, yeah. Practicing the presence of God. And the thing about that, that book, you want to read it once end to end, right?

01;02;25;26 - 01;02;28;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. But then and it takes like an hour, maybe two years. Yeah. It's not.

01;02;28;28 - 01;02;49;14
Murray Dueck
And then, you know, you got to realize it's a point form, just that somebody took notes and you kind of have to go back after and just read a sentence, put it down and walk away for the rest of the day. Right? Right. Because because here's a guy who who did what we're talking about and I know if you can hear that.

01;02;49;20 - 01;02;51;24
Joshua Hoffert
We can hear it. Yeah, it's a puppy.

01;02;51;26 - 01;03;03;23
Murray Dueck
It's a puppy. Like he's mad. Mom's out here. What's going on? He's doing he maybe he's illustrating to us. Everybody what we're giving to the holy teat right now.

01;03;03;24 - 01;03;06;05
Joshua Hoffert
Hey, where are you?

01;03;06;07 - 01;03;14;17
Murray Dueck
So, because he's freaking out, he's. He's in a little cage over there. A little, playpen. He's in a park, right? Going in circles looking for mom.

01;03;14;19 - 01;03;16;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

01;03;16;05 - 01;03;38;28
Murray Dueck
Oh, boy. Anyway, so, you know, I, I, I, I would read that I, I but his statements, it bothers me which is still, you know, as a charismatic because you know, his statement if I try to put it into words and not listen to buddy there although although he's demonstrating my point very well. Yeah. Yes. Thank God for tribulation and persecutions.

01;03;39;01 - 01;03;42;12
Murray Dueck
Don't try to get out of it. Take him as if God sent them.

01;03;42;15 - 01;03;44;07
Joshua Hoffert
And ask him for grace in the middle of them.

01;03;44;07 - 01;04;03;25
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah. So I mean, we as a charismatic, that's the last thing you do. You, me, you pray and you fast and you declare and you buy in the devil, and you get people to pray for you, and you go get inner healing, which I'm a big, you know, a you go to conferences, you get the anointing, you get the mat, you know, like, and I'm not I'm not necessarily against all those things, to be honest.

01;04;03;25 - 01;04;28;02
Murray Dueck
Right. I mean, Jesus asked a cross would be taken from him and all. I said that, you know, he I ask you. Yeah, ask. But at the same time, we were not very good at. As the puppy's demonstrating. Yeah. Acceptance. I mean, I think the puppy would be a lot happier right now considering mom's out here. If you just trying to be at peace and rest.

01;04;28;05 - 01;04;29;27
Murray Dueck
Yeah, rather than freaking out.

01;04;30;00 - 01;04;33;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, like I'm sure my lab is upstairs.

01;04;33;27 - 01;04;34;15
Murray Dueck
Yes.

01;04;34;15 - 01;04;40;20
Joshua Hoffert
You know, the three year old dog is, like, just passed out on the couch. He doesn't want to move right?

01;04;40;20 - 01;04;44;19
Murray Dueck
That's right. He's. Yeah, he's more mature. He's,

01;04;44;22 - 01;04;50;09
Joshua Hoffert
He's he's weaned in that sense. In that same sense. Right. It is a good illustration.

01;04;50;11 - 01;05;10;13
Murray Dueck
So but it's, but it's difficult. But that very thing in us, I think that I got, I can't I've got to fight this. I got to fight this, I got to fight this. Just think about what your emotions are doing in that. Think about how your brain is scheming. Think about all the aspects of your soul that are getting wound up so you can perform and get it done.

01;05;10;15 - 01;05;28;02
Murray Dueck
Right? Right. And, you know, we're taught to do that. And, and, and inner prayer starts to bring peace to these things. It starts to bring rest to these things. It starts to break down mental concepts and constructs. And and you know, we do need to do a series on the Jesus period. Sooner or later.

01;05;28;06 - 01;05;29;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;05;29;10 - 01;05;37;25
Murray Dueck
But. But we need to understand that the seasons of dryness expose these things.

01;05;38;00 - 01;05;39;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Right.

01;05;39;05 - 01;05;54;20
Murray Dueck
And and to learn how to bring rest and and, you know, rest is a weapon. Everybody read Psalm 91. What's David's weapon? I remember the Lord said to you once, you know, a thousand will fall at one side, 10,000 at the other. And I was quoting this in a service, I think. And the Lord says to me, wow, that's pretty good.

01;05;54;20 - 01;06;00;24
Murray Dueck
Hey, 2001 died thousand, and the other won't come near you. What's his weapon in Psalm 91?

01;06;00;26 - 01;06;01;19
Joshua Hoffert
Rest.

01;06;01;21 - 01;06;03;09
Murray Dueck
Rest, rest is his weapon.

01;06;03;14 - 01;06;05;00
Joshua Hoffert
Hidden in the shadow?

01;06;05;03 - 01;06;07;11
Murray Dueck
That's right. You know.

01;06;07;14 - 01;06;10;05
Joshua Hoffert
So yeah. That's right. Yeah. Okay.

01;06;10;07 - 01;06;16;25
Murray Dueck
I should probably respond to I'd go here, unfortunately. Yeah.

01;06;16;25 - 01;06;24;14
Joshua Hoffert
Well, I think we're we've, you know, we've reached the we've reached the zenith of our conversation.

01;06;24;14 - 01;06;30;17
Murray Dueck
I don't know, for for those that, you know, watch this ever I will I'll just show you what's happening here.

01;06;30;22 - 01;06;32;11
Joshua Hoffert
Let's do it. Let's see it.

01;06;32;14 - 01;06;34;13
Murray Dueck
It's our God. He's.

01;06;34;16 - 01;06;39;25
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, wow. Look at, He's looking everywhere.

01;06;39;27 - 01;06;40;24
Murray Dueck
I know, he's just.

01;06;40;24 - 01;06;43;17
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, my gosh, they're so adorable.

01;06;43;19 - 01;06;46;14
Murray Dueck
Oh. Oh, boy, look at that. Oh.

01;06;46;17 - 01;06;49;21
Joshua Hoffert
Oh yeah. He's just walking around looking.

01;06;49;23 - 01;06;58;19
Murray Dueck
These are his first steps actually I oh of him step. Yeah. Right. I think that's how God feels about us. He took a step towards me. You read.

01;06;58;23 - 01;07;01;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right, that's right.

01;07;01;10 - 01;07;04;02
Murray Dueck
Like where's mom. Oh boy.

01;07;04;07 - 01;07;17;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Stuffed animals. Oh, he found the stuffed animal. Oh, he's so cute. This is, this is a, advertisement, by the way, for the Patreon. So there's you can get the video content.

01;07;17;10 - 01;07;19;24
Murray Dueck
Oh, there you go.

01;07;19;26 - 01;07;21;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;07;21;22 - 01;07;26;10
Murray Dueck
Oh. He's still going. Oh, he's moving again. He's. Oh, that's it. You're not my mother.

01;07;26;14 - 01;07;29;12
Joshua Hoffert
You're not my mother. Yeah.

01;07;29;15 - 01;07;30;28
Murray Dueck
Anyway, I thought you guys might like to.

01;07;31;03 - 01;07;35;21
Joshua Hoffert
Wizard. Yeah, I like that. At least I got my. I got enjoyment out of that one.

01;07;35;24 - 01;07;38;15
Murray Dueck
Yeah. It did. It actually fit quite thematically in the.

01;07;38;17 - 01;07;42;25
Joshua Hoffert
It did. Yeah it did. Yeah it did. That's right. Oh yeah.

01;07;42;28 - 01;07;45;13
Murray Dueck
Oh yeah. Everybody. Well, okay.

01;07;45;16 - 01;07;51;17
Joshua Hoffert
Everybody, thanks for tuning in. And, we covered points three and four, so we'll keep going next week.

01;07;51;19 - 01;07;54;08
Murray Dueck
The top is about to enter his time of prayer and abiding.

01;07;54;13 - 01;08;12;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. Yeah. It's not it's not a bad thing to be unwind. Right. It's just there's a process of play. There's a process. Yeah. So, everybody, thanks so much. Check out the Patreon. And, until next week.

01;08;12;04 - 01;08;14;25
Murray Dueck
Okay. Thank you everybody. Thank god. Yeah. Of course.