Trust and what to do when it breaks down: Rule #5 Artwork

Voices from the Desert

In the early days of Christianity, men and women fled to the desert and became the wisest sages of their era. Voices from the Desert explores how the wisdom of Ancient Christianity applies to our modern world. Where do the streams of historic Christianity intersect with contemporary Christianity? And how do we come to know God deep in our heart? Join Joshua Hoffert and Murray Dueck for a deep dive into the mystics, union with God, patristic theology and what it all means in our modern world.

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Voices from the Desert

Trust and what to do when it breaks down: Rule #5

July 18, 2025 • Joshua Hoffert and Murray Dueck

In today's day and age we are surrounded with great examples of failed leaders. But does every failure constitute spiritual abuse and manipulation? It sure seems like some think so. Join Josh and Murr as they talk about Rule #5 from the 10 Spiritual Rules: Trust.

For more about Voices from the Desert, check out our Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/VoicesfromtheDesert

For more about the monks in New Germany, visit their website: https://www.goosechasemonastery.ca/index.html

00;00;17;08 - 00;00;51;10
Joshua Hoffert
And so you just go on like the litany of. Quote unquote, institutions that trusted men and women that people trusted. That completely failed and completely let down. Yeah. And then we also live in an age where any perceived slight. It seems like from a leader can turn into, well, that was spiritual abuse of the highest order, spiritual population.

00;00;51;12 - 00;00;58;12
Joshua Hoffert
Hey, I've been asked to join an elder board of the church. And what do you think I should do at Murray? What did you say?

00;00;58;15 - 00;01;00;16
Murray Dueck
Run for your life. And. Yeah.

00;01;00;19 - 00;01;01;09
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;01;01;11 - 00;01;09;10
Murray Dueck
Run for your life. Run for your life.

00;01;09;12 - 00;01;19;05
Murray Dueck
I gotta go into service immediately. Welcome. It's such a such a habit now. Welcome, everybody, to Voices from the desert.

00;01;19;11 - 00;01;22;17
Joshua Hoffert
Desert, desert, desert.

00;01;22;19 - 00;01;29;23
Murray Dueck
000. Oh. The puppy. Hey. Yeah. You don't like that,

00;01;29;29 - 00;01;34;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Oh!

00;01;34;17 - 00;01;35;18
Murray Dueck
No. The puppies. Like, what.

00;01;35;18 - 00;01;44;13
Joshua Hoffert
The hell is. But what do they say? If you want to fly like the eagles, don't surround yourself with the chickens. Is that. That's. There's something. You know that statement?

00;01;44;16 - 00;01;45;13
Murray Dueck
Something like that. Yeah.

00;01;45;13 - 00;01;51;23
Joshua Hoffert
So Murray is surrounded himself with dogs, and now he's howling like the puppies.

00;01;51;25 - 00;01;57;09
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Like, I've. I've threatened to get that power tool out. I am becoming.

00;01;57;09 - 00;01;57;16
Joshua Hoffert
Like, the.

00;01;57;16 - 00;02;09;02
Murray Dueck
Dogs hate that they actually howl, but I I've tried it. I've tried it now, a few times outside of to see if I could record it. But the the the sound of the tool. Maybe more power. More.

00;02;09;04 - 00;02;10;11
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, yeah. Probably. Yeah.

00;02;10;11 - 00;02;11;07
Murray Dueck
The sounds of the dog.

00;02;11;07 - 00;02;15;20
Joshua Hoffert
Maybe I'll give up on that one. Yeah. Because anybody that's been following us.

00;02;15;22 - 00;02;17;18
Murray Dueck
Or threatened to do it numerous times.

00;02;17;19 - 00;02;26;21
Joshua Hoffert
If you're new to the podcast, you probably you probably wouldn't know that Murray has two puppies hanging out just in front of them. Yeah. Well.

00;02;26;24 - 00;02;45;00
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Sheep, dogs, everybody. If anybody does, no, we, we did not know Aislinn, the sheepdog was pregnant, so purebred sheepdog puppies. We don't want to. We don't really want to sell them for money, but we sure want to make sure they get a really, really good home with probably kids and some land where he.

00;02;45;00 - 00;02;45;22
Joshua Hoffert
Doesn't want six.

00;02;45;22 - 00;02;46;21
Murray Dueck
Dollars,

00;02;46;23 - 00;02;58;25
Joshua Hoffert
Hanging around. Yeah, but because it's a farm there and he actually everybody he was Murray was telling me about it a the, not the ostrich. The not the.

00;02;58;28 - 00;03;00;15
Murray Dueck
Oh. The peacock. Yeah.

00;03;00;16 - 00;03;18;01
Joshua Hoffert
It was going through weird birds. Pink peacock for, you know, ostrich or peacock laid lady emu EMU laid eggs in the neighboring field and, and was caring for the eggs, but would come back to the farm for water.

00;03;18;03 - 00;03;21;08
Murray Dueck
Yeah, every few days. At three days. I mean, amazing, a good story.

00;03;21;11 - 00;03;32;22
Joshua Hoffert
After a few days of that happening, when the peacock left, darting through the field came a fox that pillaged all the eggs from the nest. Yeah.

00;03;32;23 - 00;03;40;03
Murray Dueck
And and that's the problem. He's been up on the bluff, looking down and the whole thing out 2 or 3 days, just waiting.

00;03;40;04 - 00;03;42;00
Joshua Hoffert
Biting. Right. That's. Yeah.

00;03;42;06 - 00;03;43;05
Murray Dueck
Why you got.

00;03;43;12 - 00;03;46;25
Joshua Hoffert
That's why you have the dogs. That's right. Yeah.

00;03;47;01 - 00;03;59;17
Murray Dueck
But even the neighbors, they let their dogs come in one night it came out. Chickens all gone. Right? Just right, because they know, oh, you're not there. Oh, you're not out tonight. Okay. Like it's it's amazing. How smart everybody is.

00;03;59;17 - 00;04;01;29
Joshua Hoffert
So you've got six dogs. You're becoming a bit like.

00;04;02;04 - 00;04;03;01
Murray Dueck
Well, that's not.

00;04;03;04 - 00;04;03;20
Joshua Hoffert
You gotta say.

00;04;03;21 - 00;04;04;20
Murray Dueck
I've been home for like a.

00;04;04;21 - 00;04;09;12
Joshua Hoffert
Seventh that thinks it's the dog, which is the sheep.

00;04;09;14 - 00;04;10;20
Murray Dueck
Yeah. The dog.

00;04;10;21 - 00;04;11;13
Joshua Hoffert
Sheep, sheep.

00;04;11;13 - 00;04;13;24
Murray Dueck
So I got sheep, dogs and dogs that.

00;04;13;25 - 00;04;14;15
Joshua Hoffert
Oh that's right.

00;04;14;15 - 00;04;15;20
Murray Dueck
So it has to be.

00;04;15;22 - 00;04;17;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah. So.

00;04;17;05 - 00;04;38;00
Murray Dueck
But yeah, I mean my plan is these two youngins, hopefully they'll find, good homes. And I can tell you though, my goodness, I know why they charge so much for puppies now. Like the sleepless nights and, Oh, yeah. You're on. Oh, and that's two I can't imagine. You know, my older sheep dogs came from litters of 12.

00;04;38;00 - 00;04;41;07
Murray Dueck
Yeah. I just can't imagine that somebody could keep their sanity.

00;04;41;10 - 00;04;43;05
Joshua Hoffert
Right. So lots of counsel.

00;04;43;08 - 00;04;47;10
Murray Dueck
But anyway, if anybody, you know Sammy the old guy, he's on his way, so we'll probably be down there.

00;04;47;10 - 00;05;00;19
Joshua Hoffert
Well, you could give. You give the dog, and then you invite the person to. You give the puppy away and then you invite the person to some, spiritual direction sessions that they have to pay for because you need to help them recover.

00;05;00;23 - 00;05;02;12
Murray Dueck
Hahaha. Well, that would work out, wouldn't it?

00;05;02;17 - 00;05;07;00
Joshua Hoffert
That you're a man of taking care of a dog? There's there's.

00;05;07;03 - 00;05;14;05
Murray Dueck
Change. You know what? You should do? What you think you should be doing and building. You know, suddenly it's like, no, we're gonna have to put it off a month because I got to take care of puppies.

00;05;14;05 - 00;05;20;26
Joshua Hoffert
And we have a three year old chocolate lab, and he was nine weeks when we got him. And so there's a lot of work involved.

00;05;20;28 - 00;05;22;13
Murray Dueck
Oh, man.

00;05;22;16 - 00;05;25;15
Joshua Hoffert
So anyway, just as much as the kids say they're going to do the work.

00;05;25;22 - 00;05;32;11
Murray Dueck
I will show you for anybody who watches just the video version, there you go. I'll turn the camera out just for a second.

00;05;32;11 - 00;05;37;27
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Oh, lift it up a little bit. Oh, there it is. Yeah. Yeah. Very. Yeah.

00;05;37;29 - 00;05;46;14
Murray Dueck
The other guy is in the little kennel behind that. And so yeah he's little. So cute. Pretty big. When I held there she sat up in the great out.

00;05;46;17 - 00;05;46;26
Joshua Hoffert
And with.

00;05;46;26 - 00;05;47;12
Murray Dueck
That, that.

00;05;47;18 - 00;05;59;01
Joshua Hoffert
Gives us our segue way to join our Patreon. Because if you join our Patreon, you would have seen that video or, we're building a little community there on Patreon and people that we're able.

00;05;59;01 - 00;05;59;14
Murray Dueck
To work.

00;05;59;22 - 00;06;07;01
Joshua Hoffert
With and ask questions and suggest episode content, do we have, one of our.

00;06;07;02 - 00;06;07;21
Murray Dueck
We'd like that.

00;06;07;21 - 00;06;15;14
Joshua Hoffert
Patreon subscribers talking about a, spiritual direction program that they're aware of. And,

00;06;15;16 - 00;06;16;07
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that was.

00;06;16;09 - 00;06;19;24
Joshua Hoffert
That was really cool. Yeah. So for for laypeople especially that and I.

00;06;19;25 - 00;06;21;11
Murray Dueck
Wanted to I want to look into that.

00;06;21;12 - 00;06;22;20
Joshua Hoffert
Actually. So, you know.

00;06;22;20 - 00;06;24;14
Murray Dueck
So what was it? Tabor. Tabor.

00;06;24;20 - 00;06;26;00
Joshua Hoffert
Talbot. Is that what it was?

00;06;26;00 - 00;06;27;02
Murray Dueck
Talbot. It was Talbot.

00;06;27;02 - 00;06;28;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah, he was.

00;06;29;00 - 00;06;29;13
Murray Dueck
A town.

00;06;29;13 - 00;06;30;15
Joshua Hoffert
Hall built university, and it's.

00;06;30;18 - 00;06;31;16
Murray Dueck
Full of Mennonites.

00;06;31;18 - 00;06;41;07
Joshua Hoffert
So anyway, join our Patreon. You'll see the link in the subscription, or description. Subscription. A Patreon is a subscription, and it's a way to support the channel. And it's.

00;06;41;07 - 00;06;42;08
Murray Dueck
A prescription with.

00;06;42;08 - 00;06;50;25
Joshua Hoffert
Us. And you get access to the video content. And pre-roll footage of Marie and I planning episodes and talking about life.

00;06;50;27 - 00;06;52;05
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And.

00;06;52;07 - 00;06;57;05
Joshua Hoffert
Man, you shot it was a doozy. What Murray was talking about on the pre-roll this time, where we'll.

00;06;57;05 - 00;06;57;27
Murray Dueck
See if we get there.

00;06;58;00 - 00;06;59;02
Joshua Hoffert
We'll see if we get there.

00;06;59;02 - 00;07;07;07
Murray Dueck
So mocking somebody's name quite unintentionally. Yeah, but I'll tell you why. I have a story behind why that happens. Which. All right, I will.

00;07;07;14 - 00;07;11;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. It wasn't a Freudian free episode. Yeah.

00;07;11;08 - 00;07;17;01
Murray Dueck
No, it was fairly pre-planned, but unfortunately out of my own trauma. Yeah, I will just say.

00;07;17;01 - 00;07;19;17
Joshua Hoffert
That Murray's got a lot of it. You know, he's got a lot of trauma.

00;07;19;20 - 00;07;24;27
Murray Dueck
So yeah, I am quite, quite, quite open about my, my,

00;07;24;29 - 00;07;26;13
Joshua Hoffert
My church. Every one of the.

00;07;26;13 - 00;07;28;17
Murray Dueck
Hairs made me the man I am today.

00;07;28;17 - 00;07;32;17
Joshua Hoffert
Every one of the hairs on the right side of your head. There is no sprouted from that.

00;07;32;17 - 00;07;33;04
Murray Dueck
Great. Yeah.

00;07;33;04 - 00;07;35;01
Joshua Hoffert
From, traumatic situation.

00;07;35;01 - 00;07;36;26
Murray Dueck
Yeah. It's a badge of honor, I wear it.

00;07;36;26 - 00;07;53;08
Joshua Hoffert
That's right, that's right. Yeah. That's like the coverage. I mean, many, many have heard you talk about the, the conversation with the the monk who said you mentioned. Oh, yeah, the church splits and you've you might have more church splits under your belt in, you know, than.

00;07;53;11 - 00;07;56;24
Murray Dueck
Than in a thousand years.

00;07;56;24 - 00;08;03;02
Joshua Hoffert
You're basically you're basically a Protestant, reformer, you know? Yeah.

00;08;03;02 - 00;08;03;26
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I guess so.

00;08;04;00 - 00;08;08;27
Joshua Hoffert
Let's split. Well, you're not you. You're not the. You've just been subject to.

00;08;08;27 - 00;08;21;28
Murray Dueck
Well, you know, I, I, you know, I'll throw it a crazy thought and I'll throw the vineyard guys under the bus here. Because, I am a vineyard guy. I that's where I would feel most at home, I guess. But I, I wonder if something's.

00;08;21;28 - 00;08;33;04
Joshua Hoffert
Just right about a break between the worship and the preaching that includes coffee and your vineyard. Just always, you know, that's. Yeah. You walk into a vineyard.

00;08;33;04 - 00;08;57;26
Murray Dueck
And I wonder, you know, we came out of the Mennonite church, and you know, basically went into the vineyard movement in a kind of a roundabout way. But, and, and, you know, there is a real, a real change in church culture, massive change for in many ways. But but the thing that I wonder if if Wimber made a mistake and I'm sure Wimber would look, if you could come down, he would apologize for many things.

00;08;57;26 - 00;08;58;04
Murray Dueck
Right.

00;08;58;04 - 00;09;01;06
Joshua Hoffert
So I've got a story for you. I don't know if I can share, though. Maybe I've.

00;09;01;07 - 00;09;12;18
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I remember it was, Hank Hannah Graf, I think, said because he was really, really hard on. Oh, for sure. Who has converted to Orthodoxy, by the way?

00;09;12;19 - 00;09;16;01
Joshua Hoffert
He talks about down saints and praying to, yeah.

00;09;16;01 - 00;09;18;20
Murray Dueck
It's crazy being Arden Wimber gets sick.

00;09;18;26 - 00;09;24;01
Joshua Hoffert
The mystical presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. Yeah. Listening to Hannah Graf now is like what?

00;09;24;07 - 00;09;48;15
Murray Dueck
Like he wouldn't call themself a heretic back in the 90s, but. But he still said Wimber was probably one of the most influential church reformers since Wesley. I mean, for him to say that after all, a crappy game, yeah, it's quite something. But one of the things that I wonder. So. So the reason I say that is if we're going to pick on somebody's theology, we should also make a statement like that, because that's true about about Wimber.

00;09;48;15 - 00;10;12;18
Murray Dueck
Right. Very much is that I wonder when when he said, somebody said, don't call me Pastor John. I don't call you plumber Bob. I'm not what I do. You know, I wonder and so in the vineyard movement, you have this really, really, dumbing down of of the value and status of a pasture and, and from, you know, the level of training.

00;10;12;18 - 00;10;36;19
Murray Dueck
Those vineyard guys are laypeople that they see the gift in and call them up. They don't they don't. You often don't have the, you know, the degrees or education you would have in an evangelical church. Maybe it doesn't matter. But the thing I found in churches like that is they split so much easier than other churches. And I think part of the problem is, well, I as a layperson hear God as well as the leadership does.

00;10;36;22 - 00;10;59;15
Murray Dueck
Why should I think your way is right compared to my way? Or if education doesn't matter if training doesn't matter if I can't call you, your title position doesn't matter. And I and we're equal. And here God, why should I believe what you say is better than me and I? And I think the actually created and I, I have, you know, and I do think we want a level playing field.

00;10;59;15 - 00;11;16;18
Murray Dueck
Everybody I that's why I joined that church in the first place was because it shouldn't be about your title or, and it shouldn't be about your, your education. It should be about your relationship. But, you know, there's a ditch on the other side of the road here. I think they invited church splits in a way. It's like my group in the church doesn't agree with you, so I'm just.

00;11;16;18 - 00;11;23;15
Murray Dueck
We're just going to go over here because, well, you're obviously wrong. Your status, your title, your education doesn't mean nothing. Well.

00;11;23;17 - 00;11;24;06
Joshua Hoffert
And then they had.

00;11;24;06 - 00;11;25;08
Murray Dueck
Their and,

00;11;25;10 - 00;11;34;04
Joshua Hoffert
Controversial thing, I think it was last year or the year, number of the year before where the, the original vineyard in Anaheim split off.

00;11;34;06 - 00;11;35;23
Murray Dueck
And there's a good example.

00;11;35;23 - 00;12;14;05
Joshua Hoffert
On there calls themselves part of the vineyard. And the vineyard guys were like, well, how can you do that? It's you know, it was they tried to pull rank and authority and you got a whole structure. The so the, the, the are the disagreement was over the move in vineyard was towards more authority and control is we think the denomination had shut up firing and hiring and firing say they maybe we should move away from elder run churches that are independently and autonomous and have own all their own, you know, have their own, have their own resources and own their own buildings.

00;12;14;05 - 00;12;31;08
Joshua Hoffert
And we should maybe have more of a measure of control. And some of the churches were thinking, that's a good thing, and some of them weren't. And the Anaheim Vineyard guys weren't. And they said, all right, scenario. We see the writing on the wall. We're going, yeah. And so then you had a group of disgruntled people from there, including John Wimber.

00;12;31;08 - 00;12;37;18
Joshua Hoffert
His wife sued the it's a it's just became a, huge mess. Right. There's no.

00;12;37;22 - 00;12;38;10
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;12;38;12 - 00;12;49;16
Joshua Hoffert
Just it just just, illustrating what you're saying, right? Yeah. Yeah. Does that mean, you know, I mean, that more control and structure fixes that.

00;12;49;18 - 00;13;08;00
Murray Dueck
And see, that's a problem. I don't think it does. That is so I, I would still lean towards that model person and even even after church. But I, I hate to say it. So I, I am a senior in our inner healing. So that because the very thing I just criticized I am complete agreement. Yeah.

00;13;08;02 - 00;13;10;09
Joshua Hoffert
So dissonance.

00;13;10;11 - 00;13;18;16
Murray Dueck
Yeah. There's a right there, there's a cognitive dissonance right there because I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I. That mean, you know, so.

00;13;18;16 - 00;13;19;11
Joshua Hoffert
Basically where I think.

00;13;19;13 - 00;13;24;16
Murray Dueck
I intentionally did not go get a doctorate degree because and you know, I can surmise, but you.

00;13;24;16 - 00;13;25;12
Joshua Hoffert
Have a masters.

00;13;25;17 - 00;13;26;25
Murray Dueck
So yeah.

00;13;26;29 - 00;13;27;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;13;27;20 - 00;13;31;05
Murray Dueck
Well, you know, the.

00;13;31;08 - 00;13;33;12
Joshua Hoffert
Maybe we'll save that for the Patreon.

00;13;33;14 - 00;13;53;19
Murray Dueck
Well, the reason I did that, believe it or not, I, I, I, somebody said to me that if you want a relationship, if you want to talk to the Catholics, you want them to even listen to you. You have to have at least a master's degree. And I was like, well, you know, I, I do believe that.

00;13;53;21 - 00;14;10;08
Murray Dueck
I think I would like to pray and prophesy and, and introduce those some of those guys to some of this stuff we have had. I think maybe the Lord would like to set that up. So I thought, well, okay, you got them, I can do that. So but anyway, well.

00;14;10;11 - 00;14;33;06
Joshua Hoffert
I mean, that kind of thinking in a way that segways us to the topic at hand for today and what we've been, what we've been covering, not the Masters thing, but the looking at the, I think it's natural in terms of the conversation that, quote unquote, I hate this term, but we'll use it just for the sake of, you know, cultural relevance.

00;14;33;06 - 00;14;37;18
Joshua Hoffert
I guess church church hurt. You know, I think that's.

00;14;37;19 - 00;14;45;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Yeah. Because really, the point we're going to hear really in Father Luke's.

00;14;45;12 - 00;14;56;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, it can easily cause people that have been through difficult situations to go well, like these are definitely two rules that I won't listen to.

00;14;56;22 - 00;15;13;24
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And if you listen to our stuff on Patreon, we discussed a little bit. It'll come up a little bit here. But we really try to hash that out. Like where are we going with it? So because it's, you know, the anyway, okay, let's get into the hard questions. Let's do it okay. Oh my goodness. So it's going to cause lots of trouble.

00;15;13;27 - 00;15;15;14
Murray Dueck
So wait a minute.

00;15;15;17 - 00;15;19;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah Julius okay. You're good.

00;15;19;09 - 00;15;23;16
Murray Dueck
Yeah I see a tail sticking out under under that blanket over there. Okay.

00;15;23;16 - 00;15;48;00
Joshua Hoffert
So the, well, again, we're going over, the ten rules of the spiritual life from, an Orthodox abbot from the monastery in Nova Scotia. Check out the monastery, please. The Hermitage of the Annunciation, called the goose Chase Monastery in New Germany. Which you can do, but.

00;15;48;00 - 00;15;49;06
Murray Dueck
Is it a wild adjudicator?

00;15;49;10 - 00;15;54;22
Joshua Hoffert
Goose chase is the name of the road that they're on. So that's why it's, And.

00;15;54;22 - 00;15;55;15
Murray Dueck
So not a wild.

00;15;55;15 - 00;16;18;11
Joshua Hoffert
Goose. Wild goose chase. There is actually a pretty good documentary on YouTube about the monastery as well, which gives you an idea of their rhythms and what, the monks are like. So Father Luke put together this short pamphlet for, visitors for their the the rules and life of the community. You know, they'll call them rules of the spiritual life.

00;16;18;11 - 00;16;29;09
Joshua Hoffert
These are guidelines or Guideposts that point us in a particular way. So, you know, it's funny that evangelicals, we kind of, bristle at the word rules. Yeah.

00;16;29;09 - 00;16;30;11
Murray Dueck
Yeah, we sure do.

00;16;30;13 - 00;17;12;10
Joshua Hoffert
But the rules really just mean the Guideposts that help us navigate the spiritual, spiritual principles. Yeah. So, yeah, you could say that. And the evangelicals would be okay. The principles where you say rules and you're like them. Anyway, so, we've been covering those and, essentially Marie and I, we, we wanted to do when covering these was look at a system of a quote unquote, system of the spiritual life or a or an ethos or, practice of the spiritual life, and see, how does that compare with, with some of the stuff we're with, what we're doing and some of the stuff that we were raised in and all of that.

00;17;12;10 - 00;17;37;28
Joshua Hoffert
And, and, you know, we find commonality, we find differences. So, so if you're part of the Patreon, we've made this, document available and, for you to peruse. And if not, then you need to go to the monastery of New Germany to get one. And they have. Great. Stuff that you can purchase actually on their website, because the monks are always doing handiwork and stuff.

00;17;38;01 - 00;17;46;14
Joshua Hoffert
A little books and actually the best book I've ever read. Read on Lectio divina is from, Father Luke, who wrote this.

00;17;46;18 - 00;17;48;15
Murray Dueck
Oh, isn't that interesting?

00;17;48;17 - 00;18;15;02
Joshua Hoffert
A little just a little booklet. The short little booklet is fantastic on, reading the scriptures. So, today we are covering, points five and six, and, we've covered the last point we covered last week was 0.4, except to remain dry. And we talked through that one. And, we covered a couple other ones.

00;18;15;02 - 00;18;20;23
Joshua Hoffert
And so points today, points five and six. We may only get 3.5. We'll see because that's the one that kind of stirs up.

00;18;20;24 - 00;18;21;28
Murray Dueck
Yeah I think we were.

00;18;21;28 - 00;18;31;25
Joshua Hoffert
Like both of them stir up a little bit of you know depending on the scope and what people hear. So points like.

00;18;32;02 - 00;18;34;23
Murray Dueck
Definitely got my inner drama stirred up here and the priest.

00;18;34;25 - 00;18;35;09
Joshua Hoffert
And like we.

00;18;35;09 - 00;18;36;08
Murray Dueck
Said, there's a lot you know.

00;18;36;08 - 00;18;38;07
Joshua Hoffert
So yeah, that's.

00;18;38;07 - 00;18;39;27
Murray Dueck
Why when you what button you want to push.

00;18;39;27 - 00;18;53;11
Joshua Hoffert
Like, who can I ask to do a podcast with that has the most trauma that will always get triggered. And so they'll always be stuff to talk about. My friend Murray. No. Yeah. Yeah.

00;18;53;13 - 00;18;54;04
Murray Dueck
That's why I'm here.

00;18;54;05 - 00;18;55;18
Joshua Hoffert
That's why he's here. A.

00;18;55;19 - 00;19;01;06
Murray Dueck
Gut level emotional many night to go. And how does that go together? We don't.

00;19;01;08 - 00;19;25;20
Joshua Hoffert
So point for point five is trust, and point six is just for the for future reference as we go through it is accept to remain in darkness and confusion. So point five, trust point six. Except to remain in darkness and confusion. Again Guideposts for the spiritual life, right? These this help us point us in the right direction.

00;19;25;23 - 00;19;28;03
Joshua Hoffert
So the sub points of trust.

00;19;28;06 - 00;19;29;18
Murray Dueck
And here's where it gets in.

00;19;29;18 - 00;19;38;19
Joshua Hoffert
The dirt and here's where it gets into trouble. Because you, you know, this this depends on the scope that you're talking about. And and again, we don't want to put words in Father Luke's.

00;19;38;21 - 00;20;02;16
Murray Dueck
Yeah. We almost need to have, father Mike come back on and go now. Go. Let's go through this again from an Orthodox way. That's because we're really everybody giving you kind of our quasi desert father thinking here. So on our journey. So, you know, what we're saying is, as compared to, I'd say either Mike or Father Luke would say maybe very different, just so you know.

00;20;02;21 - 00;20;03;16
Joshua Hoffert
So, yeah.

00;20;03;16 - 00;20;05;03
Murray Dueck
That's good to know. Point five. We're not.

00;20;05;03 - 00;20;26;22
Joshua Hoffert
They are. That's right, that's right, mind readers. But but we find these things helpful. Point five trust learn to accept all the sub points. A point five describing trust is learn to accept, right. Learn to receive and welcome and be convinced that God watches you with love. Those are the sub points of trust. Yeah.

00;20;26;23 - 00;21;06;21
Joshua Hoffert
And, so as, as Guideposts for the spiritual life. And I think what one of the things Murray was saying before we went, live via so the Patreon subscribers would have heard and is well, by trust is it meant and by learning to accept and learning to receive and welcome is trust. And this is where trust becomes an interesting issue is because what, what some people do is they trust the church, they trust the denomination, right?

00;21;06;21 - 00;21;33;15
Joshua Hoffert
They trust the church system. Some people trust the leader. And so what's being implied by trust and what's being meant by trust is trust. Is it, to trust the father? Because then we go, great. You know, we trust the father, but but when we trust the father, you know, what's the scope of trust, then at that point and,

00;21;33;17 - 00;21;34;26
Murray Dueck
Then.

00;21;34;28 - 00;21;51;29
Joshua Hoffert
So I think that's that's kind of what we were thinking about was, especially we've covered other in other episodes. You know, there was the Mike Bickle situation. There was the stuff with Morningstar, there's the we're going further back. Ravi Zacharias situation. There was the.

00;21;51;29 - 00;21;53;07
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah. So much of.

00;21;53;13 - 00;22;26;01
Joshua Hoffert
The, the gateway, Rob Robert Morrison situation in Texas. Right. There's you just go on. There's there's the Morris. Robert Morris, no Morris and Robert Moores. And so you're just going like the the litany of, of quote unquote institutions that people trusted and men and women that people trust in and, that completely failed and completely let down.

00;22;26;03 - 00;22;31;12
Joshua Hoffert
And and then every one, every probably every person listening has an experience in their life.

00;22;31;12 - 00;22;32;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I'm sure that's why they're.

00;22;32;12 - 00;23;03;19
Joshua Hoffert
Here, where they trusted a, a whether it was a church community. They trusted people in the community. Yeah. They were they were hurt. They were, betrayed. They were wounded. Whatever. And and then we also live in an age when any perceived slight, it seems like from a leader can turn into, well, that was spiritual abuse of the highest order or spiritual manipulation.

00;23;03;19 - 00;23;33;29
Joshua Hoffert
And, and you're like, well, no, they just said something that hurt you. And that doesn't necessarily mean that was spiritual abuse. Yeah. So the the term gets bandied around so much. Right? Yeah, absolutely. And and I think when you have, when you peel back and personally when you peel back all the layers and you know, it's interesting because you could go into, you could start getting into like, attachment theory here and the way people respond to absolutely.

00;23;34;02 - 00;23;35;02
Murray Dueck
That's absolutely.

00;23;35;05 - 00;24;03;04
Joshua Hoffert
For sure. The way people respond to different situations and predicaments and, based on their style of attachment that was modeled to them by their parents and their foreign family of origin. Right. Because some people who people that were raised, raised in a, in a secure attachment environment where they had loving, caring parents who'd nurtured them and supported them and, and took care of their different stages of development and all of that.

00;24;03;07 - 00;24;29;09
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Trust becomes much more naturally because trust is not someone I, I can trust myself, right? Because I have a strong root and foundation within myself. And so trust comes more naturally then you get people who are raised in an insecure attachment environment, and because they're secure in insecure attachment, and then the insecure attachment takes a number of different forms, you know, fearful avoidant, anxious.

00;24;29;11 - 00;24;56;14
Joshua Hoffert
So people that are raised in that environment have a much more difficult time trusting and even later in life have a yeah. And actually anxious attachment tends to be the kind that propagates down the line. And and that's so trust comes a little more difficult. It becomes a little more difficult in that sense. So then you could look at that like, so trust in my mind.

00;24;56;16 - 00;25;20;06
Joshua Hoffert
Is has to start with I trust the father, I trust the Lord, I trust God, and I think Paul does this right. He does this in Romans eight when he talks about he'll work two, he'll work together, he'll work for the he'll work all things together for the good of those who love him. Right. As Romans eight, and I think I quoted that right.

00;25;20;08 - 00;25;39;18
Joshua Hoffert
And so that trust is not in the outcome. Trust is not in the person. Trust is not in the system. Trust is not in the individual. Trust is in the father himself that things will work out. Therein lies the hard thing.

00;25;39;21 - 00;25;42;14
Murray Dueck
Or that even the fact that he's leading you through for.

00;25;42;14 - 00;25;42;28
Joshua Hoffert
Sure.

00;25;42;29 - 00;25;53;06
Murray Dueck
Yeah, trust isn't that you're going to necessarily stay there. Trust can maybe be. I mean, Jacob says, Rachel, only your father's faith is faith is no longer favorable to me. Time to go.

00;25;53;08 - 00;25;53;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;25;53;20 - 00;26;14;20
Murray Dueck
Can I trust God that I can leave this bad relationship? Because I can trust God to lead me forward. Trust there is it. I need to stay. Keep working for Laban. Because, hey, I'm a I'm a wet sacrifice and I deserve it used, right? I mean.

00;26;14;22 - 00;26;17;16
Murray Dueck
Can we also trust God that we can say no.

00;26;17;19 - 00;26;44;09
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Well, and I think with, with, you know, I, I was, in the church that Aaron and I were attending back in Pi before we moved, I was part of the preaching team, and I was preparing a message. We were working through Romans eight. And, side note, and D writes just put out a great new book on Romans eight that my dad keeps telling me I need to read.

00;26;44;11 - 00;27;04;28
Joshua Hoffert
And, so I, I need to get to the I actually, I think we were doing the Romans eight thing as a, as a consequence of the our pastor having read Romans eight. So I was, I was tasked with, Romans eight, I think 31 to 33 or something like that, which,

00;27;05;00 - 00;27;06;27
Murray Dueck
All things are work together.

00;27;07;00 - 00;27;11;06
Joshua Hoffert
I think all things work together. Happens just a bit later.

00;27;11;06 - 00;27;12;24
Murray Dueck
Than that, maybe. Oh, God.

00;27;12;25 - 00;27;33;24
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. And then the. But it's the, What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? That's the kind of the main verse in there that I keyed in on verse 31. If God is for us, who can be against us? And and that becomes for some people that becomes a rallying cry because of their they want a particular political outcome, right?

00;27;33;24 - 00;27;57;15
Joshua Hoffert
Like, if God's for us, you know, we're going to take the capital, we're going to we're going to elect the right person. We want to set up a, you know, a Christian state, so to speak. The city of God. Right. Augustine. Yeah. So that that because I'm not saying Augustine use that. I'm just saying people use that particular concept, right?

00;27;57;15 - 00;27;59;02
Joshua Hoffert
That that verse. And I realize that.

00;27;59;04 - 00;28;00;12
Murray Dueck
Even the crusaders.

00;28;00;12 - 00;28;03;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. If God is for us, who can be against us? That's our rallying.

00;28;03;06 - 00;28;06;09
Murray Dueck
Cry and God wills it. I think that that was there.

00;28;06;13 - 00;28;29;00
Joshua Hoffert
And I realized when I was studying it, I was going, but that's not the intent isn't for that to be a rallying cry and a banner that we marched our army for thunder. It's a it's a statement of trust. It is that God's going to work all these things together. And it's not so much that now I can go build and do and conquer and stop and accomplish because he's for me.

00;28;29;00 - 00;28;52;11
Joshua Hoffert
So I can go do anything. Right. It's it's I trust him. And as a good father, he's caring for me. And so in everything I do, I know he'll be there accomplishing through me. And so it's actually it actually puts more on his nature than it does on my capability. And but we put we said, well, I'm so I'm so capable because God's for me, I can go overthrow everything.

00;28;52;14 - 00;29;15;25
Joshua Hoffert
And, so, trust is, I think is the foundational level of prayer and the spiritual life it has to be. And it's not that I trust, it's not. So it's not like I would say it this way. I don't I don't have to inherently trust Murray.

00;29;15;27 - 00;29;19;01
Murray Dueck
Oh, really?

00;29;19;03 - 00;29;48;05
Joshua Hoffert
What? But I trust the father. If I trust the father, then I can trust the father in Murray as well. And so when I say to Murray, hey, let's do a podcast together or or whatever or or anything, any kind of issue that we're you and I are working through in the context of our friendship or our podcast or whatever, then I can trust that the father is going to work through Murray, and he's going to work through me, and we can trust each other in that sense, because we trust him.

00;29;48;07 - 00;30;10;10
Joshua Hoffert
Not so much because I go, I can trust Murray. And, so my my trust has to rest first in him. It can't rest in the system, in the person, in the organization and the leader. It has to rest in the father. And anytime it rests first in the person, the organization, the system, the denomination, the leader, whatever.

00;30;10;12 - 00;30;35;13
Joshua Hoffert
It's one, it's it's I'm going to be sorely disappointed in something. It'll always happen. It has to happen. And if I don't have that root in myself, or I'm trusting the father and the father in me, then it totally throws me when something happens. So I can only learn to accept in a way that's healthy and thriving and spiritually mature.

00;30;35;15 - 00;30;59;18
Joshua Hoffert
If I'm accepting what the father has brought my way, not learning to accept what everyone around me says, all right, I'm not. I'm not trusting in the sense that I'm learning that I'm, you know, 0.1, learn to accept that I accept everything the leader tells me to do. I trust the father and that he'll work through everything, even though I don't understand it.

00;30;59;21 - 00;31;48;12
Joshua Hoffert
And, and in that sense, then I have an actual strength within me that is going well. What is he asking me to do? And what am I trusting him with? And, learn to receive and welcome doesn't then mean I receive and welcome everything a leader says to me. So I'll take I'll tell it. I'll use an example from the Desert Fathers in that in that sense, there's a story, of, a particular monk who finds a spiritual father, and the spiritual father is, essentially a drunkard and a, an abusive spiritual father berates this young man and does all kinds of, manipulative and abusive tactics towards this young man.

00;31;48;12 - 00;32;15;00
Joshua Hoffert
Right. At the same time, there's another spiritual father down the road who is kind of caring a little bit for this young man. He hears the stories, but in the context of the Desert Fathers, in one person, he's submitted to this abusive spiritual father, right. And, the I it's I'll, I'll simplify it, but the the, there's a tender father and an abusive father.

00;32;15;00 - 00;32;44;27
Joshua Hoffert
The abusive father is the one that's quote unquote, caring for the, the young, the young man. So years pass by. The young man has told the tender father all the things that the abusive father is doing. And, eventually the young man passes away, and, and then the father passes away. Right. And and so I guess there's a lot more to this story, but this is the bare bones of it.

00;32;45;00 - 00;33;27;20
Joshua Hoffert
And, what happens is the the tender father who knew both of them essentially has by divine revelation, the insight that the the young monk was standing before the throne interceding for his father, the whole time. Right. Would you save him and soften him and all of this and his death and the conviction that hit the the abusive spiritual father afterwards radically transformed him, and within a few weeks he's passed away and he's repented and, you know, the the great judge of the universe is lenient on him because of his repentance, because of the prayers of the the young man.

00;33;27;20 - 00;33;55;24
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And, so the young man was subject to, a, an abusive situation, but the Lord used it all in order to convict the heart of the abuser. And and so there's a redemptive outcome there, right? So the it's not so much that the young man trusts the abusive father. He trusts that the father has led him to a place, and he has a purpose and what he's what he's going through.

00;33;55;26 - 00;34;20;05
Joshua Hoffert
So he learns to accept, he learns to receive, and he welcomes what the father is doing through him. Right. And there is an eventual outcome that the Lord does have a plan. I'm not saying that that means that to learn to trust is to put yourself in that situation. But there's a different perspective and a higher perspective. And and sometimes we don't see the whole picture.

00;34;20;11 - 00;34;24;17
Joshua Hoffert
So I don't know what you think about that one, Murray, but that one's always kind of struck me.

00;34;24;18 - 00;34;25;29
Murray Dueck
Well, you got an hour. I mean.

00;34;26;00 - 00;34;27;13
Joshua Hoffert

00;34;27;16 - 00;34;28;15
Murray Dueck
I mean, there's.

00;34;28;22 - 00;34;43;00
Joshua Hoffert
But I do remember this. I remember this before you. Before you say that that, a good friend, a mutual friend of Boulevard's, asked you. Hey, I've been asked to join an elder board at a church. And what do you do at Murray? What did you say?

00;34;43;02 - 00;34;44;18
Murray Dueck
Run for your life.

00;34;44;20 - 00;34;47;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. That was good advice, you know.

00;34;47;19 - 00;34;52;22
Murray Dueck
I said, yeah, you know, it'll damage your marriage. It's going to. And that church blew up.

00;34;52;25 - 00;34;53;07
Joshua Hoffert
Within a.

00;34;53;10 - 00;35;02;29
Murray Dueck
Year. Pastors got caught, went to jail. Yeah. Church blew up. Boy, the best advice he ever got was that time of coffee asking that question because he avoided all he didn't.

00;35;03;00 - 00;35;04;29
Joshua Hoffert
He joined. He became an elder of that church.

00;35;05;03 - 00;35;07;23
Murray Dueck
Oh. Did he? Oh, I didn't know that. I thought he did it.

00;35;07;23 - 00;35;09;12
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, you became an elder of that church.

00;35;09;12 - 00;35;12;28
Murray Dueck
Oh, no, no wonder I he's never talked to me again. But I feel shame.

00;35;13;01 - 00;35;16;13
Joshua Hoffert
But he's still his where his marriage is good and and,

00;35;16;15 - 00;35;19;01
Murray Dueck
Oh. He's a good he's a good guy. He's a great guy. Yeah. And,

00;35;19;07 - 00;35;20;12
Joshua Hoffert
But I remember that conversation.

00;35;20;12 - 00;35;20;24
Murray Dueck
That was a.

00;35;20;24 - 00;35;21;25
Joshua Hoffert
Mistake. Told me to run.

00;35;21;25 - 00;35;22;27
Murray Dueck
Should not have done it.

00;35;23;03 - 00;35;25;04
Joshua Hoffert
I might have told him to say maybe I was.

00;35;25;07 - 00;35;47;27
Murray Dueck
A different church. I might have said, you know, I, I wouldn't give that advice to everybody. I remember that just, I don't know, know where that church was at and what was going on. I'm like, don't do it. And it's tough, you know, it's tough everyone. So trust I mean, again, you know the the Desert fathers for one you got to they're not thinking church like we're thinking job right.

00;35;47;29 - 00;36;06;13
Murray Dueck
So I mean when I was on staff, but this one church I blew up, and this would be a typical staff meeting when you, when you go to stop meeting, you come. What is your ministry doing? How are you training your leaders? How are you growing it? What difficulties you are overcoming? How are you planning for the next season?

00;36;06;16 - 00;36;25;14
Murray Dueck
It's a planning vision casting meeting. That's what it is. And I would say that's true for for most teams. You're not talking about what's going on in your life, what's going on with your families. You're not doing that. You know, it's a business meeting, right? And people out there like, oh, that's not, well, minor like and eventually our hearts change too.

00;36;25;14 - 00;36;50;18
Murray Dueck
So I'm not saying, but the problem is you got you got to understand that that's not how the early church is functioning. Right. And even today, the, the, the Orthodox Church, like. They're thinking, so when you're submitting to somebody, they're thinking, how is this is going to happen? Or how is this person going to become like Christ to reign with him in bridal intimacy forever?

00;36;50;21 - 00;37;09;16
Murray Dueck
And how as a priest, am I involved in this process? Right. So and again, you know, maybe things aren't so black and white, but but so the idea. So we think in our culture we look at confession and go, oh my goodness. You know, you're going to tell some of your sins. And then they're going to give you penance to do, and it's going to be punishment.

00;37;09;19 - 00;37;28;10
Murray Dueck
I mean, what's supposed to be happening is that the areas of your life you struggle in, you talk to the priest and they they pray for you and they help you get better to heal your soul. Right. How are you going to overcome this area of your life? And how are you going to become more Christlike and and church is supposed to be a hospital that heals people.

00;37;28;12 - 00;37;29;22
Murray Dueck
But, you know.

00;37;29;24 - 00;37;32;11
Joshua Hoffert
I note your previous episodes about that.

00;37;32;14 - 00;38;00;05
Murray Dueck
Yeah. We see the church as either an institution. That's it. Building like a CEO builds a corporation, or we and we think of things like that is, oh my goodness, that's that guy's going to just it's all just, it's it's all about judgment. It's all about law. And and so we have two views right there that make it very difficult to look at Father Luke's points and go, oh, we understand what he's talking about.

00;38;00;12 - 00;38;22;02
Murray Dueck
Wait. Well, we're so outside of the culture. He's part of that, that one. We don't understand what he's talking about because he's talking about trust in the process of becoming. Well, for us, it's very easy to talk about trust in the form of building and doing and relationships. My vision, my passion. What's my goal? Right. That's not what he's talking about at all.

00;38;22;05 - 00;38;33;12
Murray Dueck
And and it's it's easy to to go there. So, so you know and I can give you lots of examples of that like.

00;38;33;15 - 00;38;57;28
Murray Dueck
Like, oh sure. I'll give you an example. And I'm still trying to work it through to this day. So we're so the one church I just mentioned, that church blew up, pastor became gay, started the church. So next church, let's start all over again. Let's do it again. Right. So, you know, on staff, typical. You know, they're talking about vision and direction.

00;38;57;28 - 00;39;05;29
Murray Dueck
And so and you have to understand most of the time on a staff when you're there, your job is to protect and backup the senior pastor. That's your job.

00;39;06;01 - 00;39;08;16
Joshua Hoffert
Serve another man. There's always serve another manager.

00;39;08;17 - 00;39;26;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah. There's always crises. There's always something going on. And you got to circle the wagons because there's always, you know, there's always something happening in somebody's marriage or family or sickness or warfare or whatever. And the senior pastor and, you know, you got to stand there, but what do you do when the senior pastor is a problem? Right, right.

00;39;26;14 - 00;39;45;02
Murray Dueck
And you've developed a culture where everyone goes, yes, sir. Great sermon today. And you know, he didn't prepare that at all. He just stood up there and worried because he didn't even quote the Bible. What are you going to do? Because, you know, when you're on staff, if you go, can we talk about that? Everybody looks at you and goes, is this fight worth it?

00;39;45;05 - 00;40;03;22
Murray Dueck
Because if I join it, I'm out. So therefore I'm giving it back to senior pastor, even though he's wrong because otherwise. Right. So what do you do? You're looking at how spiritual abuse forms, right? So you know saw this going on. Quit going to the staff. I did that already for seven, eight years not doing this again. Right.

00;40;03;22 - 00;40;27;04
Murray Dueck
So, so it, it, it got to the point of church splits going on a little bit with some good reason in this case. And my son, who's very spiritually sensitive, I remember we walked into the back door of the church and we're thinking, it's all going to get better. Everyone's going to get along. Oh, good. Hope believes the best you know, love, hope never fails, right.

00;40;27;06 - 00;40;48;22
Murray Dueck
It's all going to work out in the end. And remember, Jesse was 12 and he says, I can't sit down in the sanctuary anymore. It's like people are dumping garbage on me. And now he doesn't know what's going on. He just the spiritual atmosphere is like that. So we sat up top. There was a little office area up there, just a little, not even a balcony, but just, you know, a little walkway by the offices so you could look down on the sanctuary.

00;40;48;22 - 00;41;07;22
Murray Dueck
So we sat up there, right. You know. No, I'm running Samuel's mantle. I'm kind of involved. I should be there. So, you know, I made him sit in that mess believing it was going to get better for another three and a half years until the pastor finally blew the church up and ended up divorcing his wife and going on medication.

00;41;07;24 - 00;41;34;24
Murray Dueck
So. I was trusting what they're right with that trust, blindly believing it's all going to get better. Good for my family? Absolutely not. You want another 5 or 6 of those stories? I can tell you worst one, right? Right. So so the the idea that you trust the institution now was God with us in the midst of that?

00;41;34;24 - 00;41;53;03
Murray Dueck
Absolutely. Was was he in the midst of it? Sure, absolutely. He was. You know, he is faithful and he carries our wounded and he walks with us and he weeps so and, you know, and I would have done that way different now, but the reason I bring it up, so many of us are like, well, okay, I got to trust this is all going to work out.

00;41;53;03 - 00;42;16;04
Murray Dueck
And but look, you know, look at Jesus. You you I have to again, if you the Orthodox point of view, you go to a doctor, you faint in front of them, he's going to slap you in the face because he hates, you know, he's trying to save your life right? But you see, one of the problems in our Western West Western Christianity is we believe often, is that love is peace at all costs.

00;42;16;06 - 00;42;31;19
Murray Dueck
If I love, I'm going to put up others because that's what love does, right? But I mean, if our kids were skipping school and smoking cigarets, what would we do? I hate you now. I'm going to ground you and prove I hate you. I will ground you well. No. Why are you grounding them? Because you love them, right?

00;42;31;22 - 00;42;58;23
Murray Dueck
Right. So to say that that discipline is not love, right? So that's another problem. We have that when we say trust. Well therefore I've got to keep my mouth shut. I can't make decisions. I've got to just let this happen. No. You know, love is not being silent and not having a voice that is not love. Right? So when we're talking trust, trust is bringing God and who he is in his fullness into the midst of things.

00;42;58;26 - 00;43;21;07
Murray Dueck
And that can get really, really ugly. Right? Right. There's a verse in like what, first Corinthians five? It's the some around communion and there's different versions of this, so you can dispute my version. But I remember Graham Cook talking about it and the verse goes something like this. I hear there are divisions among you, and there must be division to show upon whom God's favor rests.

00;43;21;09 - 00;43;36;07
Murray Dueck
How's that for an interesting verse? Right? Because the way we took it back in the day was, well, tale of three kings. Who do you want to be, right? Do you want to be Saul? Trying to keep the kingdom? You want to be Absalom stealing the kingdom? Or do you want to be David letting it go, right? Right.

00;43;36;07 - 00;43;50;24
Murray Dueck
So. Well, absolutely. You want to be David letting it go. And that probably was a good decision. But boy oh boy, I, I,

00;43;50;27 - 00;44;14;15
Murray Dueck
Boy, I have some real great regrets about being. Being silent and letting it go are not necessarily the same thing. Let's just say. Right. So to trust, I mean, we you know what? What does this mean at this word? I mean, do we trust God implicitly on the journey? Yes. But does that mean that we don't have boundaries, that we don't ask questions, that we can go?

00;44;14;15 - 00;44;21;09
Murray Dueck
No, I disagree that we don't leave because it's not safe, you know? No.

00;44;21;10 - 00;44;21;26
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;44;21;29 - 00;44;47;19
Murray Dueck
I mean, I mean, Paul rebukes Peter to his face in Galatians three publicly, right, right. Is would we call that trust? I would say the Bible does. Yep. So they say that that trust is an emotional thing where we all get along because we're looking at peace at all costs. I would say that's not trust. I would say that's compromise.

00;44;47;22 - 00;45;13;14
Murray Dueck
I would say love, love. Does it cover a multitude of sense? Yes. Does that mean we're not honest and real and not at all. Right. And there's a big problem in the Western church where we let things go and go and go and go because, well, love, you know, but but discipline and discipleship, I mean, most just look at Jesus with the Pharisees or with Peter, say, get behind me, Satan.

00;45;13;14 - 00;45;32;15
Murray Dueck
I mean, look at look at how Jesus. Does that mean he doesn't love them? Well, not at all. Right. So so again, back to, you know, disciplining our kids. It's like when we consider trust. I mean, I'm a minute night. We used to have the big saying over the many nights when we're in Russia, the silent in the land.

00;45;32;17 - 00;45;56;18
Murray Dueck
Just learn to keep your mouth shut. Don't stir things up. Right. Look how that way. Right. So, so, I mean, there's there's lots of this outworking on layers and, and and it's just important if you guys are listening because, you know, when the Orthodox would say, you know, if you dispute with your spiritual father, it's like the snake will wrap around your intestines and you'll never get fruit.

00;45;56;21 - 00;46;32;07
Murray Dueck
I mean, that's straight quote right out of I think he's a case out of the follow Galia word for word. Yeah. Pretty much. Right. So is is that what we're saying here? Well, I'm sure not. You know, I mean saint simulant theologian would really agree with case there. But he's also he's like you got to be really careful who you you make your spiritual father and just so you know, everyone for me on my board, I've got, you know, Steve is on my board, who is a spiritual father, the president of CMA, you know, my my spiritual father who's walked with me since I was 23 and I'm like just about 60.

00;46;32;09 - 00;46;51;07
Murray Dueck
You know, I got lots of people speaking into my life, so it's not like I'm like, okay, now I'm against, you know, and I submit to these people just about with my, with my we went through a big blow up in 2017 and I put myself in professional counseling, turned my whole ministry over to my board because I'm like, am I judging people?

00;46;51;07 - 00;47;15;06
Murray Dueck
Am I making wrong decisions, am I right, and how do I know, I don't know, so therefore I've got to let go of control entirely. And meanwhile there's people in my ministry handing me books on the Jezebel spirit about other people in my ministry. And they've sat and prayed together for ten years, every Wednesday, just having tea just to be a family.

00;47;15;09 - 00;47;32;11
Murray Dueck
Right. So it was horror. It was horrible. Two and a half years of that 50% of my time was just conflict resolution. So, you know, so the right thing to do is trust, let go of power. But, you know, I thought in my ministry I thought everyone else would do that too. Let's all let go of our power.

00;47;32;14 - 00;47;41;17
Murray Dueck
Let's all get counseling. No. I'm right. Here's a book and just will never talk to me again. So I mean, do you really want unity with somebody who would do that with you?

00;47;41;23 - 00;47;42;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;47;42;22 - 00;48;07;20
Murray Dueck
Am I supposed to trust them, even though they've been in my ministry for five years? But they're attacking another person like that. Know. Right. So. So when we think trust, trust has still has to be built on on integrity, on on common values. Comment. You know, you know, how can two walk in agreement. How can two walk together unless they agree.

00;48;07;22 - 00;48;40;29
Murray Dueck
I mean it's so I mean you know, what is trust here. And and trust is that in the midst of this life, we're being formed into the image of Christ by what we go through with him. Right. As Jesus walks to the house of the father, that's trust. Does that mean now? How does that work out with my, being in ministry, being in church, being with people depends on the people I've walked with, again, with my board and my spiritual father for 25 years.

00;48;40;29 - 00;49;08;19
Murray Dueck
You know, a lot of them. I've known Steve since 1991. I've known Brian since 1984 using my youth use my youth pastor. So I know I've got some good long term relationships, but, you know, some of these other situations where working with, with a senior leader in particular, when and this is one reason I bring this up, everybody, is that unfortunately, when you look at personality types, often visionary leaders, you know, it's different.

00;49;08;21 - 00;49;30;18
Murray Dueck
Pastors long to see people healed. Prophetic people want to hear that we all have flaws. But, you know, visionary leaders unfortunately with their the CEO kind of the apostolic if you want to use that term, there's lots of good. I think John is like a fabulous apostolic leader. I think they'll Johnson is a good apostolic leader. I don't don't know him at all.

00;49;30;18 - 00;49;55;25
Murray Dueck
But but when you believe and here's the problem. When you believe your vision is your gift from God, right? And that your vision, if you do it, therefore your vision is your intimacy with God. So God's given me this vision. So fulfilling the vision is intimacy. And then you recruit everybody to do that vision and as a visionary leader, tend to be very friendly while they're recruiting.

00;49;55;25 - 00;50;23;04
Murray Dueck
But after they recruited you, you're carrying the baby together. Therefore you have intimacy. But a pastoral person, prophetic person, that's not intimacy. Time spent is intimacy. But that's not how they think. Well, you can see some real problems coming up in the future there because you're not on the same page of even what intimacy means. And then once you get recruited for the vision and they think, okay, now we're doing the will of God, but what if their vision is just them?

00;50;23;06 - 00;50;47;11
Murray Dueck
What if their vision is God brings that vision into a season of pruning right? Then what? What are you going to do? Well, trust. Believe. Serve well. You need to look at that very, very differently for the sake of your own mental health and figure out what you're called to do right with Jesus, not necessarily what the system is calling you to do.

00;50;47;15 - 00;51;08;25
Murray Dueck
They could be exactly the same things. They might not. Right? But trust is the ability to walk with people and be open and honest. Have them speak into your life, but at the same time, you know you need confirmation. You need fruit of the spirit. You need to go back to Scripture. You need the inner witness. You need to go through all the tests.

00;51;08;28 - 00;51;32;01
Murray Dueck
But when we talk about trust, you have to trust that somebody is helping you be made into the image of Christ, because that's a leader's job. And if that leader's job is only to see you serve a vision, I would be careful. Yeah, because they should be. Somehow, even in the midst of working together, helping you become Christ like.

00;51;32;04 - 00;51;42;14
Murray Dueck
And if they're not, they're only having you work. Remember when the disciples came back? Lord, we healed the sick that even the demons submit to us. What did Jesus say? Don't rejoice in that.

00;51;42;14 - 00;51;43;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;51;43;10 - 00;52;07;29
Murray Dueck
Right. Rejoice! Your names are written in heaven, meaning you are known in heaven. Rejoice that you're known in an intimate relationship with the father. Rejoice in that. And if your leaders are helping you, rejoice that you are intimately known by the father. Follow that leader. But if you're a cog in a machine to see anything happen, I would be very careful.

00;52;08;01 - 00;52;09;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Let me I that.

00;52;09;20 - 00;52;33;23
Murray Dueck
I so there we go. That's my two bits on on trust with. Yeah and everyone yes I might talking out of my, my wounding I absolutely am but I've just there's such a high body count, such a high body count that that when we have trust in this is where the church is going. We're going to breakthrough, we're going to overcome.

00;52;33;25 - 00;52;52;16
Murray Dueck
The gates of hell will not prevail. And and we're putting trust in slogans. Is that stuff going to happen? Yeah. But their seasons, right. Their seasons of pruning, their seasons of fruit bearing, their seasons of training. So if you're trying to push breakthrough when God's like, now's the season. The pruning. You ever try to pick raspberries in the winter?

00;52;52;19 - 00;52;54;01
Joshua Hoffert
Well, it seems to me that.

00;52;54;01 - 00;52;54;17
Murray Dueck
It's not.

00;52;54;17 - 00;53;09;05
Joshua Hoffert
Going to happen. It seems to me that the I think one is that the concept of trust is, a contemporary concept of trust is misguided at best.

00;53;09;07 - 00;53;21;15
Murray Dueck
I see that that's the problem when we look at this, because that's in the, I'm sure again, not what Father Luke. He's talking. He's talking from an orthodox view where the church is bringing healing to the soul. But we're also talking.

00;53;21;15 - 00;53;24;09
Joshua Hoffert
About what how people are going to hear this. Right.

00;53;24;17 - 00;53;43;21
Murray Dueck
Well, the people that are listening to this are people who are in ministries like I've described or have been through it and have tried to believe the best in in situations, because I know a lot of the people listening. I know what some of these people have been through and so we need to address that. We need to say, hey, listen, these are different things.

00;53;43;21 - 00;54;03;09
Joshua Hoffert
If we peel back the layers and just and go, let's simplify in the sense of, you know, core elements of trust, right? Because again, as, as you'd like, you know, you described the kind of leader you would look at and go, oh, I'm not going to trust that system leader or institution because.

00;54;03;13 - 00;54;12;08
Murray Dueck
Well, you know, starting to set it. Totally true. Yeah, I would say, Jonathan, it said it really well, maybe not just to answer. Maybe John Wimber said this too, but never trust a leader without a doubt.

00;54;12;12 - 00;54;14;17
Joshua Hoffert
Right. That's a it's a great idea. So yeah.

00;54;14;23 - 00;54;24;15
Murray Dueck
You could you could sum it all down and then never trust a leader without a limp. When somebody has been through stuff, you know, they have a lot more compassion on on people. Yeah.

00;54;24;17 - 00;54;34;02
Joshua Hoffert
And I think I would say I think I would, I think the pushback I'd give to a statement like that would be never trust a leader ever. You know, I just yeah.

00;54;34;04 - 00;54;36;09
Murray Dueck
Could be I don't I don't.

00;54;36;11 - 00;54;53;28
Joshua Hoffert
I don't I can't look at and not me trying to describe, I'm trying to describe this. Right. Because, I can't look at employee like I don't think about Jesus. And it says that Jesus did not entrust himself to the people because he knew what was in them, what.

00;54;53;28 - 00;54;55;16
Murray Dueck
Was in the hearts. And then, yeah.

00;54;55;16 - 00;55;02;10
Joshua Hoffert
So he didn't entrust himself to anybody. But his trust in the father never wavered, even even on the cross.

00;55;02;16 - 00;55;03;28
Murray Dueck
Exactly. Not my will.

00;55;03;28 - 00;55;06;27
Joshua Hoffert
You not on the cross. Into your hands. I can commit my.

00;55;06;27 - 00;55;30;00
Murray Dueck
Spirit and see that. That's the tricky part. I'll just see what's in here. See, that's the tricky part. Because, to go back with what you're saying, see the ditch on the other side of the road here is the fact that, well, now, if somebody does something I don't like, I don't have to guess if if if there's something going on here and it makes me uncomfortable or I don't get what I want out of the church, therefore I shouldn't be here.

00;55;30;02 - 00;55;53;07
Murray Dueck
Well, how are you becoming like Christ if there is no humility, there's no servanthood. There's no seeing what's in your heart. You see, that's the other tricky side thing, because that's also a really big problem that that pastors are dealing with, really good pastors who are wonderful people who who people are in it just for them. And, and, and I think and that's really hard.

00;55;53;07 - 00;56;06;12
Joshua Hoffert
I think people that tend to think that way are probably people who, going back to what I said earlier, are probably people with an insecure attachment that has never been healed. Yeah.

00;56;06;12 - 00;56;08;05
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that would make sense.

00;56;08;07 - 00;56;30;19
Joshua Hoffert
And so, you know, Jim, while Wilder, working with Dallas Willard and stuff and, and, life model works, you know, we've had Michael Sullivan on, who's part of that organization, an ambassador of the organization now. And we're just now airing the the episodes. So if you haven't listened to the Michael Sullivan stuff, you should go back and listen to it.

00;56;30;21 - 00;56;30;29
Murray Dueck
You.

00;56;30;29 - 00;57;04;24
Joshua Hoffert
Wilder in his book renovated, which is a fantastic book that anybody should read, hypothesizes that when you take the term has said in the Old Testament, which is translated as the loving kindness of God, it's also translated as, mercy or the or the merciful, kindness of God or the tender heartedness of God is translated a bunch of different ways in the in The New King James, loving kindness is one of the ways that really captures the essence of the verse.

00;57;04;27 - 00;57;34;20
Joshua Hoffert
And there's a number of, you know, Lord, save me, have mercy on me. Right. That's salvation of mercy are go hand in hand. So his point in, his point in renovated essentially is that the, the term has said is essentially the the human experience of secure attachment.

00;57;34;22 - 00;57;35;14
Murray Dueck
Oh, interesting.

00;57;35;15 - 00;57;55;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And so if you were to take every place where he says this is renovated, if you were to take every place where the the word has said is used in the Old Testament and translated as secure attachment, it would take on a richer meaning and it would make total sense. And he gives a bunch of examples of that.

00;57;55;08 - 00;58;01;17
Joshua Hoffert
You know, I, I there's just a, there's just a myriad of examples.

00;58;01;20 - 00;58;03;10
Murray Dueck
Can you give one you can you think I.

00;58;03;13 - 00;58;11;01
Joshua Hoffert
I'll, I will pull up I'll pull something up. Just give me a second. Right. It's like if you go throughout the Psalms. Right. The.

00;58;11;04 - 00;58;12;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Oh, well, you like.

00;58;12;13 - 00;58;31;14
Joshua Hoffert
The term is there all the time? They're. Let's see. Examine me. Oh, Lord. Improve me. Try my mind in my heart. For your loving kindness is before my eyes. And I've walked in your truth. Right? That word loving kindness as the word has said. Right? So examine me and prove me. Oh Lord, try my mind in my heart.

00;58;31;14 - 00;58;43;04
Joshua Hoffert
For your secure attachment is before my eyes, right? Like I'm securely attached to you. So you can you can see anything. I'm not scared of bringing myself before you because I'm securely attached to you. Right?

00;58;43;11 - 00;59;02;18
Murray Dueck
That's that. So that word often again, because I've heard that the word, you know, you know, as the Orthodox Jesus prayer, Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, that that word really is mercy that must be has said in the Old Testament of loving kindness. Right? So but it's interesting, like I pray that prayer, when I'm doing well, I can see mercy, right?

00;59;02;24 - 00;59;18;04
Murray Dueck
Because I but when I'm doing bad or I'm things are going wrong. I see mercy in my mind is please don't kill me, you know, because I make it. I make it a legal term which, you know, it's. And so it's interesting to think of it as loving attachment. Yes. Wow. That's quite up.

00;59;18;06 - 00;59;39;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So you can go through any and any little tender mercy, loving kindness. That's, mercy I actually might I've usually if I'm, if I'm doing the Jesus prayer usually say be tender towards me because that's the term mercy really. It's essentially stooping down in kindness to lift you up. It's a, it's a that's what the word itself means.

00;59;39;16 - 01;00;06;00
Joshua Hoffert
It's not necessarily a legal word, although it could be extending that kind of tender affection from a judge to someone else. And, but the word itself for mercy tends to mean the loving, tender affection of God and his. His mercies are new every morning. His secure attachment is new every morning, right? It's deepens and strengthens itself. So you can go through almost every place and look at it and and replace that and go, there it is.

01;00;06;00 - 01;00;29;16
Joshua Hoffert
And like I said, I like looking at the Psalms and doing that because there's so many examples in the Psalms. So, so the point is here. So, Jim, while there's point is salvation is a new secure attachment with the father. That's what salvation is. And and then we learn to live out of that place of secure attachment with the father and man.

01;00;29;17 - 01;00;30;09
Murray Dueck
That's really nice.

01;00;30;14 - 01;00;55;02
Joshua Hoffert
That's quite makes a lot of sense. Right. And, and rings true, when you've, when you've had a, a an experience of the loving kindness of God. Right. It totally reworks your value system. Right? Looking at the the hierarchy of values that we've talked about. What's the I can't read the term, you know, you have an experience, it shifts your values, blah, blah, blah.

01;00;55;03 - 01;01;07;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. So salvation being a new secure attachment and, and, and for many people, it's not framed that way. Right. Salvation is a legal get out of jail free card.

01;01;07;03 - 01;01;07;28
Murray Dueck
That's right.

01;01;08;01 - 01;01;23;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And, and now go to church, attend church, and, and eventually you get into this system where, like, these things that you described, where you're serving another man's vision, you're building the house and all these kind of statements come out.

01;01;23;03 - 01;01;47;00
Murray Dueck
And everyone, you know, again, the other side of that, the again, it's the system isn't set up well for pastors either. Yeah, for sure, because I mean, in Western church culture, I mean, I know some really good pastors, they lose their building and their congregation halves or more. Yeah, right. You don't have a Sunday school program. You can kiss another 30% of your church goodbye or more.

01;01;47;00 - 01;01;52;21
Murray Dueck
Right? Right. And it's because you got to feed the beast. You got to feed the program. Right. Well, who's going to do it?

01;01;52;23 - 01;01;53;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;01;53;14 - 01;02;06;14
Murray Dueck
Well, all the people who and they don't necessarily want to do it either. But yes, it's a way we've set the we've set it up. Right. It's. Yeah, the whole thing is, is so program based.

01;02;06;16 - 01;02;07;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

01;02;07;18 - 01;02;22;04
Murray Dueck
It's not really relationally based in some ways. And, you know, I am very glad that my church had the first church Sunday school person for my kids. So don't get me wrong. But it's it's I mean, there's lots of facets to this, right? It's very functional.

01;02;22;04 - 01;03;00;17
Joshua Hoffert
And so I that's why I think, I, I think if, if the conversation around trust centers around how do we what are the character traits of a trustworthy person? We've missed the forest for the trees because because nobody is trustworthy. I'm not trustworthy to myself. I will make mistakes. I will disappoint myself. Right? And, so I'm even thinking about the, you know, the beginning of the podcast when I made some changes to our scheduling, and, and through Murray for a loop, because I hadn't included him in those changes.

01;03;00;17 - 01;03;24;26
Joshua Hoffert
I don't know if you remember that, Murray and, Yeah. But it was like, you know, it was. You were and or or shifting schedules and all of that. You know, we're good friends, but then I would go, oh, I got something to come up. And you're like, hey, I scheduled this already, and we had to work through how do we work this out together and love and respect one another?

01;03;24;26 - 01;03;27;09
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And so I'm just saying I, I can think of examples.

01;03;27;09 - 01;03;30;05
Murray Dueck
But see, that's what trust is. Well that's right. But that's like.

01;03;30;07 - 01;03;44;01
Joshua Hoffert
That's where I can say in myself I'm, I have I had there are untrustworthy things in myself as, as you know, as you know, as we were able to talk through those and figure out how to, how to do things together. Right. So but see.

01;03;44;01 - 01;04;00;22
Murray Dueck
That's a really good point because if you can I mean, everybody is going to screw up. I mean, there's there's intention and there's outcome. Yeah. And I think with a lot of things we have to go, okay, this outcome. Was this the person's intention? I would say most of the time it wasn't even around some very bad church stuff.

01;04;00;22 - 01;04;22;17
Murray Dueck
Right. Often people can have a really, really good intention. And I think we need to go often, you know, with our friends and our spouses. What was their intention? Did they really mean it to work out this way? Like that was not your intention, right. That was an outcome, but it wasn't your attention. And I and I think how you when you walk with people, how do you trust is an earned thing.

01;04;22;17 - 01;04;43;27
Murray Dueck
So I often say in counseling, you know, you have to forgive people. But if somebody broke into my house, stole my stuff, I wouldn't give them a key the next day because because trust is an earned thing, right? Yeah. So and and so when somebody wants trust based on their position, their vision, whatever, come under my covering, you know, how how are they going to earn out?

01;04;43;29 - 01;05;06;00
Murray Dueck
Trust isn't earned. Think and you know all. A basic common value. So I mean for Josh and I when you when you work with somebody who's like, hey man, I screwed up. I'm so sorry. You know, you can trust that person because how somebody responds to when they screw up and everybody screws up tells you who they are.

01;05;06;02 - 01;05;35;17
Murray Dueck
It's not a screw up that tells you who you are. It's it's their response. Can they change? Can they be accommodating? Can they see your heart? Can they, you know, if it's a bad situation, can they say, man, I'm really sorry, okay? I, I totally saw that from my point of view. And we that's how you you can trust if people are willing everybody, including leaders, to look into their brokenness and go, hey, listen, everybody, I'm doing my best, I apologize.

01;05;35;17 - 01;06;06;13
Murray Dueck
You can trust that leader. He's got a limp and and that's, you know, trust is built on. Hold that there. Keep doing it wrong. Well, then you know everybody's going to do it wrong. What do they do about that. Well, right. Can they repent. Can they get help. Can they let people in? Can they, apologize? Can they I mean, you know, okay, I can trust you because I see, somebody who's willing to live in the light, I.

01;06;06;15 - 01;06;29;22
Joshua Hoffert
And and I so I, I just, I want, I want I agree with everything you're saying, Marie. I just want to bring this to a different level. Okay? Yeah. Is is trust I don't and I would say trust isn't based on a camera. How did you just say it? That trust is earned. I don't think it is. I don't I understand what you're saying.

01;06;29;22 - 01;06;59;24
Joshua Hoffert
I don't disagree with you, but let me say it this way, okay? I always love saying controversial things. You know that, right? Right. So I don't think trust is earned. Okay? I think trust begins and is built on the third point of Father Luke's rule of trust. Be convinced that God watches you with love. And that's my whole point about the secure attachment is trust can't even begin to be earned unless the foundation point in my life is a secure attachment with the father.

01;06;59;26 - 01;07;02;01
Murray Dueck
Well, oh, totally, I totally agree and.

01;07;02;01 - 01;07;24;25
Joshua Hoffert
Then get to the point. So I'm thinking. I'm thinking about this. I can't even get to the point where I can trust Murray unless I am convinced I'm loved by the father, and I can trust that he's working everything out. So like when when we went through a, a, calamitous church situation, about almost ten years ago now, you know, seven, eight years ago.

01;07;24;25 - 01;07;46;19
Joshua Hoffert
And, Amber, you're obviously very, very well aware of that situation. Right. The, the, the leadership of that particular church proved themselves to be very, quote unquote, untrustworthy based on how they navigated the situation, based on what happened, whether it was the person responsible for what happened or whether it was how the leaders responded to the situation. Right.

01;07;46;21 - 01;08;17;13
Joshua Hoffert
Proved themselves untrustworthy in all of the metrics that you would gauge trustworthiness. Right. But none of that threw me in who I was. I mean, it was a difficult situation, but because I have this root of trust in the father, I had a conversation. I one of the last messages I gave to that church before, we moved away from the area was you can question everything that this particular leader who fell, taught you.

01;08;17;15 - 01;08;53;25
Joshua Hoffert
But you can never question what the father did through them. And because that's something he established. Right. And so the metric isn't should I, should I trust should I still trust that person or not trust that person? Or were they trustworthy or not trustworthy? Ultimately, it comes down to I trusted the father and all these things. Regardless of how difficult the situation was that I was put under because I was on staff with that church, is that the father worked it all out for good and and made me a more Christlike person because of it, and because I have a secure attachment with him.

01;08;53;28 - 01;09;14;05
Joshua Hoffert
I was able to navigate that because of him. And and so would I. And so I said to Erin at one point, you know, I, I would be friends with that person again. And Erin thought I was my wife, thought I was absolutely crazy for saying that I'm not friends with them at this point. I listen to opportunities, never presented itself.

01;09;14;08 - 01;09;36;02
Joshua Hoffert
And, even though I was ridiculously hurt by them and everything went totally awry with them. But it's not because I would trust them to be a friend. It's because if the father presented the opportunity for me, I trust that the father has my best interest in mind and has a purpose and a plan. And so I would be friends with them again, and I would open myself up to them again.

01;09;36;04 - 01;09;36;28
Joshua Hoffert
But I wouldn't do it.

01;09;36;28 - 01;09;37;24
Murray Dueck
It. Yeah, but would you work.

01;09;37;24 - 01;09;40;27
Joshua Hoffert
On what I did. But that's a, that's a whole different conversation then.

01;09;41;00 - 01;09;42;25
Murray Dueck
Because they'd have to earn that trust because they.

01;09;42;25 - 01;09;58;22
Joshua Hoffert
Well, but I, you know, if I, you know, I have a dream and the father says do it or I have a prophetic word or something, I would go, I would have to consider it, even if they hadn't earned it because of what the father had said, because, well, now this is all hypothetical, right? Obviously it's all hypothetical.

01;09;58;28 - 01;10;19;04
Joshua Hoffert
My point is that my point is just simply saying that, if I'm if I'm looking for the person to establish trust before I trust them, not even not even in that situation. Right. But let's just say in a situation, I just meet the person. If I'm looking for the person to establish trust, the problem is my attachment.

01;10;19;07 - 01;10;48;00
Joshua Hoffert
It's not the person and it's not whether or not they can maintain or earn my trust. The problem goes way further back that I probably have an insecure attachment from my childhood that convinces me either to be afraid of every relationship, to avoid every relationship, or to be anxious in every relationship. And and the route that's being developed in me because I'm convinced the father watches me in love, is that I can actually trust in each circumstance, and I can give myself in each circumstance.

01;10;48;03 - 01;11;05;29
Joshua Hoffert
And and then now if this person demonstrates to me I'm, they're going to take advantage of me or hurt me or whatever, then I can pull back from the relationship because they're not obviously not they're not trustworthy. But that that is all I'm trying to say is that the trust factor begins in being convinced the father watches you with love.

01;11;05;29 - 01;11;28;06
Joshua Hoffert
And to so many people on the face of the earth, whether they're Christian or not, grew up in a home where they did not have a mother or father that watched them with love, and they have no idea what it looks like to be secure in themselves because of it. And and people grew up in an environment where they learned that in order to navigate relationships well, I either have to avoid hard things.

01;11;28;06 - 01;11;53;23
Joshua Hoffert
I have to be afraid of hard things, or I have to be anxious over hard things. And not even hard things, but just being relationally vulnerable. And so the father comes along and goes, I'm going to create a new secure attachment in you based on loving kindness and affection. And now the the Jesus prayer, all these things that point us to him develop within us the capacity ity to actually trust people who we don't know if they're trustworthy or not.

01;11;53;26 - 01;12;19;15
Joshua Hoffert
But we can give ourselves to them now. Again, it's another conversation. If they go on an abusive streak and hurt all these people, right. But I still trust the father and I'm okay in myself because he's developed security within me. Right. And and I still trust that even though all these things have happened and even as calamitous as it was, and that the father is going to lead me and guide me through it, and I'm going to turn out okay.

01;12;19;17 - 01;12;41;28
Joshua Hoffert
And, and like, I, I mean, I remember, man, for months going through that situation, I would sit in prayer each morning and go, God, I don't want to wash myself off to the difficult emotions that I'm going through, right? Pain, rejection, anxiety, despair, all the stuff that was happening. And I want to wall myself off to these things.

01;12;41;28 - 01;13;07;11
Joshua Hoffert
So I, I'm going to open myself and feel these before you. And I know that you're feeling these things, too. You're you you know, you know, think about, God. God regretting making Saul king radius deep emotional in that sense. Deep emotional turmoil. Right. Not commenting on whether or not he's, sovereign or not, but but I'm opening myself up to those and going, God, I want to be.

01;13;07;11 - 01;13;21;20
Joshua Hoffert
I would say, God, I want to be aware of your pain. I want to be aware of my pain. I want to be aware of the people's pain. That was my prayer every, every morning, because I don't want to be cut off from it. I want to be aware of your pain, my pain in the people's pain. And eventually the father said to me, you know, that's nice.

01;13;21;20 - 01;13;23;03
Murray Dueck
So shoot.

01;13;23;05 - 01;13;44;22
Joshua Hoffert
He said to me in prayer, sorry, that's nice. He said, but your pain, my pain is not your pain to bear. And, and so he he he navigated me through a difficult situation which would have tended. Oh, there's a mass, there's an echo in there. Something has happened.

01;13;44;24 - 01;13;50;17
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Unfortunate. I've had to, plug my laptop in and unplug my headphones because my laptop is dying.

01;13;50;20 - 01;13;54;28
Joshua Hoffert
Well, sir, hold on just a second.

01;13;55;00 - 01;14;06;26
Joshua Hoffert
I can't do echo cancellation. I can't. It's like there's an echo like crazy. Can you turn the volume down?

01;14;06;28 - 01;14;17;01
Joshua Hoffert
Maybe that'll be. A little bit better. Yeah, I've to edit it out afterwards. Yeah.

01;14;17;03 - 01;14;18;15
Murray Dueck
Yeah, sorry about that. No, sir.

01;14;18;21 - 01;14;52;27
Joshua Hoffert
You got the power. Was dying, which makes sense. So that that's that is that I agree. I'm not saying I disagree with you. I agree with all the things that you were saying and then wanting to pull it back to. But we can't even hope to get to a place of evaluating, trustworthy or not. If if I haven't had that strong root of affection and tenderness developed in my relationship with the father, and I see that he's watching me daily from the lens and eyes of love.

01;14;52;29 - 01;15;09;09
Joshua Hoffert
And now I have an a, a secure attachment with him. And it's reframing how I see my interaction with everybody around me. And and when it comes to the Guideposts of the spiritual life, that has to be one of the major ones. And when people are.

01;15;09;09 - 01;15;10;21
Murray Dueck
Too, I mean, I completely agree when.

01;15;10;21 - 01;15;11;02
Joshua Hoffert
People are.

01;15;11;02 - 01;15;13;04
Murray Dueck
Convinced, if I didn't believe this was true.

01;15;13;04 - 01;15;44;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, absolutely. When when people are convinced that salvation is, is either a moral or ethical thing, which we've talked about, or a legal justification, it's like it leaves you all so hooped in actually rebuilding security and who they are before the father and and even being able to get to the place where they trust. Can I tell if this is a good leader or not, or a good person or not?

01;15;44;04 - 01;16;08;12
Joshua Hoffert
And and so we can we, you know, we go through, what are the qualifications are a good leader. But sometimes I want to go back and go, well, like, how are you developing loving kindness in your own heart before the father? And then we keep before we can even begin to give a litmus test for what it looks like to trust someone right?

01;16;08;14 - 01;16;09;19
Joshua Hoffert
So it's all.

01;16;09;20 - 01;16;10;18
Murray Dueck
I'm still wearing these.

01;16;10;21 - 01;16;11;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;16;11;21 - 01;16;16;28
Murray Dueck
You know, this quote out of, the Orthodox way? I really, I really like I'm just going to.

01;16;16;28 - 01;16;20;14
Joshua Hoffert
Go and we'll end with, we'll end with that because I have an appointment.

01;16;20;17 - 01;16;43;14
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Christ, suffering and death have then an objective value. He has done something for us. We should be altogether incapable of doing without him. At the same time, we should not say that Christ suffered instead of us, rather that he has suffered on our behalf. The Son of God suffered unto death. Not that we might be exempt from suffering, but that our suffering might be like his.

01;16;43;16 - 01;16;57;28
Murray Dueck
Christ offers us not a way around suffering, by the way, it's through him. It's not substitution, but saving compassion, sonship. And, you know, through all these things that we go through, that's the truth of the nature of God saving companionship.

01;16;57;28 - 01;17;01;26
Joshua Hoffert
That's a good way.

01;17;01;29 - 01;17;09;14
Murray Dueck
But, you know, you have to have this idea of who what the nature of God is, right? Which is what you're talking about. So. So yeah, but that's where it takes you.

01;17;09;14 - 01;17;57;05
Joshua Hoffert
But yeah, I think that when you when, when you reframe it through saving companionship and that's what the salvation journey is, it's like, oh, something is being developed in me and there's a resilience within me that wasn't there before. And now it's not so much, do I trust the system, the pastor, because I think all that stuff comes because I don't have the secure attachment and people put their place in mis put their trust in misguided places because it's not there with the father and part of that system, part of that's the culture and the environment that they're raised in.

01;17;57;07 - 01;18;18;15
Joshua Hoffert
It's never been, never been shown to them that the way of saving companionship and and so how do they develop that? How is it ever developed. Right. It's it's a it's well, you said a prayer. And so now you need to attend church and then eventually you go, well, I put all my trust in the system. I put all my trust in the culture and the environment and the vision.

01;18;18;18 - 01;18;43;29
Joshua Hoffert
And it's like, yeah, well, you never should have done that in the first place. Yeah, but but that's a much bigger picture, right? That's reframing. Like, like, I'll go back to what I said, a couple episodes ago that, you know, the popular notion of salvation is essentially witchcraft. Yeah, that's one of my favorite. I actually your response to that was, oh, yeah.

01;18;43;29 - 01;18;44;16
Murray Dueck
If I remember.

01;18;44;16 - 01;19;18;03
Joshua Hoffert
Correctly. So, but yeah, that's that's that beautiful saving companionship. And that's what establishes trust. And trust starts between the father and I and develop something deep within. And then I have the resilience to walk forward. But but if it's reframed that way, hopefully my trust never goes into the system. The governance, the political outcome, the vision casting and the leader.

01;19;18;05 - 01;19;46;12
Joshua Hoffert
And if it does, as you know, as, as Murray's described, the father is good enough to work through all those things to get to get us to where we need to go, where he wants us to go anyway. Yeah. And for Murray, it's you didn't way farm sanctuary. So caring for a couple little puppies.

01;19;46;14 - 01;19;48;24
Murray Dueck
With puppies as of today. Yeah.

01;19;48;24 - 01;19;55;15
Joshua Hoffert
So as always. So I think we'll call it to a close at that point. I'm sure my wife is tapping her foot waiting for me to go upstairs.

01;19;55;17 - 01;19;57;06
Murray Dueck
Yes, yes. That's right.

01;19;57;06 - 01;19;57;19
Joshua Hoffert
It's always a.

01;19;57;19 - 01;20;02;24
Murray Dueck
Pleasure to build trust. Right. Good intention here, my friend. Oh three. Are you going to reap an outcomes, right?

01;20;02;27 - 01;20;11;13
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. So, Murray, as always, such a pleasure doing this with you and, everybody that's been praying them.

01;20;11;15 - 01;20;15;05
Murray Dueck
God bless. Okay. Later.

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Joshua Hoffert

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Murray Dueck

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