Dealing with the deep heart: insecurity, delusion, and schemes

The Psalmist tells us that the deep heart of man devises iniquity and plots our schemes. How might the 10 Rules of the Spiritual Life address the deep heart of man with all its lies, insecurities, and delusions? Join Murr and Josh as they dive into Rules 6 and 7: "Accept to remain in darkness and confusion" and "Be thankful all the time".

For more about Voices from the Desert, visit our Patreon page: https://www.patreon.com/c/VoicesfromtheDesert

For more about Goosechase Monastery, visit: https://www.goosechasemonastery.ca/

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;31;14
Joshua Hoffert
Then we come in to what, the Psalms calls the the deep heart of man. That and devises schemes and and plans iniquity so that I can get my way out of it. Right.

00;00;31;16 - 00;00;48;02
Murray Dueck
And that that. And that's kind of everybody what the core of every piece here is.

00;00;48;04 - 00;01;01;04
Murray Dueck
Welcome to voices from the Design of o o o. I got a little carried away because of the earlier story.

00;01;01;11 - 00;01;03;21
Joshua Hoffert
So you got. Really? Yeah. You were really excited. That's right.

00;01;03;22 - 00;01;05;20
Murray Dueck
I got really excited there. So I got.

00;01;05;20 - 00;01;22;10
Joshua Hoffert
Here. Well, you know, exciting times. Yeah, it's exciting times. And so every two I look forward to every Tuesday. You know that's our reporting day by the way guys it's Tuesday I look forward to it because and I get to hang out even if Murray has walking pneumonia you know I do I have a walking pneumonia. Yeah.

00;01;22;10 - 00;01;36;05
Murray Dueck
It's which hopefully after a couple of weeks the doctor was not too concerned, but pretty tough first week, let me tell you. But I got an extra day yesterday and got a call right now. So when I'm done with you guys, I'm picking up antibiotics. That's what I'm doing.

00;01;36;06 - 00;01;46;13
Joshua Hoffert
There you go, there you go. So I didn't even know it was a thing. So yeah, I said to Murray, I worked yesterday and I'm pretty sore and I've been coughing a bit. Maybe I have walking pneumonia.

00;01;46;16 - 00;01;50;03
Murray Dueck
You need. I can guarantee you need meds specially.

00;01;50;06 - 00;02;15;17
Joshua Hoffert
It's the story. I actually know what I've been working on. A book on prophecy. I know, like you've been working on a book on transformation and the spiritual journey. Right? But, one of the examples I put in it just reminded of this, one of the examples I put in there about flaky prophecy, and, and we covered, you know, we covered this in the, some of some of the stuff in the, when we did that series on prophecy.

00;02;15;17 - 00;02;32;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right. The Prophetic Manifesto series. Yeah. We're looking at the early church in the ways that they practice prophecy. But so there's a portion of the writing where I'm talking about that, and I use the example of a woman who's in front of, of the congregation and who's going, someone here has a headache, someone here has a headache.

00;02;32;03 - 00;02;33;08
Murray Dueck
Oh, yes.

00;02;33;11 - 00;02;38;26
Joshua Hoffert
Someone here has a headache. And then goes, oh no, it's me.

00;02;38;29 - 00;02;40;14
Murray Dueck
And wax on the.

00;02;40;14 - 00;02;44;16
Joshua Hoffert
Head and falls out, right. And it's like there's that's the true story.

00;02;44;16 - 00;02;54;00
Murray Dueck
Everybody is. So, you know, I remember Bruce. Bruce used to all Bruce for Bruce reason. We had him on once used to say the prophetic can be like a box of cereal full of nuts and flakes.

00;02;54;03 - 00;02;57;16
Joshua Hoffert
You know, I'm sorry. That's very true. Very true.

00;02;57;19 - 00;03;09;10
Murray Dueck
Yes, it is very true. Wide. So for those of you who are more didactic theologians, yes, you are not wrong. Yeah, it can be that way. Yeah. And Josh and I, yeah. There's a reason I have gray hair.

00;03;09;13 - 00;03;24;21
Joshua Hoffert
Well, that's what I was thinking about when I was like my grammar. I'm sore from work yesterday. I've got a cough. Maybe it's me. You know. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, anyway, well, It's good to be with humor.

00;03;24;25 - 00;03;25;24
Murray Dueck
Oh. Thank you.

00;03;25;26 - 00;03;39;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. So welcome, everybody. And we are. We've been in a series, covering, a little bit of a little bit of dancing. Murray's ringtone.

00;03;39;09 - 00;03;43;02
Murray Dueck
Yeah. My ringtone. I just should have silence this. Sorry, everyone.

00;03;43;04 - 00;03;44;26
Joshua Hoffert
Oh. It's okay.

00;03;44;29 - 00;03;46;11
Murray Dueck
Do that right now.

00;03;46;14 - 00;03;53;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So now, now, if anybody hears that, they can judge you in your class. If you say, please put your phones on silent.

00;03;54;01 - 00;03;55;15
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I totally miss that.

00;03;55;20 - 00;03;57;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I just don't.

00;03;57;07 - 00;04;03;01
Murray Dueck
Get any phone calls. Everybody. That's the thing. I just like I'm the Maytag repairman of prophetic ministry.

00;04;03;04 - 00;04;06;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Does Maytag even exist anymore?

00;04;06;18 - 00;04;10;11
Murray Dueck
Yeah, they do, but they don't have that guy who sits there like the loneliest man on earth because.

00;04;10;12 - 00;04;11;03
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, yeah.

00;04;11;06 - 00;04;16;12
Murray Dueck
Commercials. Maybe I'm dating myself. It's like they just don't break. So no one ever calls him.

00;04;16;15 - 00;04;17;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;04;17;05 - 00;04;20;05
Murray Dueck
That's not true, by the way. God bless Maytag. But I call it right.

00;04;20;07 - 00;04;52;16
Joshua Hoffert
I always remember them in context of Sears. Right. Sears no longer exists. No. So, yeah. Yeah. Amazing how life changes. So anyway, yeah, we're we're covering this. We've been covering this document. It's, it's a pamphlet that I picked up on one of my spiritual retreats to the Hermitage of the Annunciation. Otherwise known as goose Chase monastery, because it's located off goose Chase Road in Nova Scotia, New Germany, Nova Scotia, and the.

00;04;52;16 - 00;04;58;18
Joshua Hoffert
The abbot of the monastery is a kind old monk named Father Luke.

00;04;59;13 - 00;05;25;12
Joshua Hoffert
And, just a wonderful, wonderful place. And I've done a number of retreats there just to get away and seek the Lord. And, and it's just wonderful. So that was one of my favorite things to do. Go when I hear places to go to when I lived on the east coast of Canada and I picked up this this, this pamphlet, number of he's written a few, books.

00;05;25;12 - 00;05;51;18
Joshua Hoffert
They've got a few things you can pick up. They have a web store. One of the best books I've ever read on, on lectio divina. Oh, yeah. Is that Father Luke the monastery put out? Right. It's a series of instructions to a disciple, basically on reading scripture. And, it's like, rather than essentially the the theme of the the booklet, lecture.

00;05;51;18 - 00;06;05;01
Joshua Hoffert
Davina is reading Scripture to encounter God versus reading scripture to personally benefit yourself. Right. It's it's a really fascinating shift in mindset when it comes to Scripture.

00;06;05;01 - 00;06;05;27
Murray Dueck
So we should.

00;06;05;27 - 00;06;09;13
Joshua Hoffert
Go with this. Yeah. Actually, one day, maybe we will. That's a good point.

00;06;09;14 - 00;06;14;04
Murray Dueck
Yeah. We've talked about a great life statement there. Yeah.

00;06;14;07 - 00;06;38;04
Joshua Hoffert
And, so anyway, there's a, there's a pamphlet that the monastery has put out there called communion with Jesus Christ. The Daily agenda ten rules for the Spiritual Life. And so we've been covering that and we've covered rules one through five. The last episode you would have listened to as a listener on this was episode five, trust.

00;06;38;07 - 00;06;39;14
Joshua Hoffert
And what to do with.

00;06;39;18 - 00;06;39;24
Murray Dueck
That.

00;06;40;00 - 00;06;40;14
Joshua Hoffert
Broken.

00;06;40;15 - 00;06;42;11
Murray Dueck
I got I got totally triggered.

00;06;42;14 - 00;06;48;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Mary got triggered. Yeah. We tried to rein him in, but, you know, the triggering just kept on triggering a little bit.

00;06;50;17 - 00;06;53;20
Joshua Hoffert
Well, you know, it's a it's a prevalent topic to.

00;06;53;22 - 00;06;57;14
Murray Dueck
Right. Like. Yeah, trust the Lord. Absolutely. But but,

00;06;57;16 - 00;06;58;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;06;59;01 - 00;07;04;16
Murray Dueck
You know, as Saint Simeon the new theologian says, yeah, you need a spiritual father and you need to be absolutely submitted.

00;07;04;18 - 00;07;06;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, 100%.

00;07;06;23 - 00;07;14;04
Murray Dueck
But you got to be really careful who that is. Virgil father is right with, some guidelines. So anyway. Yeah, we kick that around pretty good. We did?

00;07;14;09 - 00;07;35;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, we did. So that would have been the last one. So today we're covering, rule six and maybe rule seven. We'll see how far we get. I think there's a possibility there. And and rule six is, well, the rules. I'll just go over the rules real quickly that we've covered so far. The first goal is seek self renunciation.

00;07;35;17 - 00;07;57;24
Joshua Hoffert
The second one was accept to have no results. The number three. And these are not we're not saying these are easy rules, but these are they're Guideposts. It's like the, the if you're doing if you're bowling and you put the bumper lanes out right. It's like they help you hit the target. That's what these rules are. They're the bumper lanes that help you hit the target.

00;07;57;26 - 00;08;08;26
Joshua Hoffert
So when you roll your bowling ball down the lane, which is your aiming, your prayer and affection towards the Lord, if these are your Guideposts, it helps the ball along the way.

00;08;09;00 - 00;08;11;11
Murray Dueck
And it's a lot easier to get strikes. Everybody. When you.

00;08;11;11 - 00;08;11;26
Joshua Hoffert
Got easier to.

00;08;11;27 - 00;08;14;08
Murray Dueck
Get that, my scores go way up.

00;08;14;10 - 00;08;35;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, these are the Guideposts. These are the the channel markers. Right. So seek self renunciation. The well the the the channel is the thing the ball goes into. That was what I was thinking right. When when you don't have them there the ball goes into there, goes into the gutter. So seek self renunciation. Don't think you're not thinking about yourself, right?

00;08;35;16 - 00;08;58;02
Joshua Hoffert
You're not trying to fulfill yourself in your daily walk with Jesus. Right? You're trying to know him. So see see self renunciation to is accept to have no results. That you're not the one building he is. Yeah. And, I was just thinking about this in, in my reading this morning. In in with, Matthew the poor of.

00;08;58;03 - 00;09;18;26
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. Yeah. Working through where he talks about how the prayer is your kingdom come, not me. Get into the kingdom. Right. Like it's the movement of the father to me. It's not my movement to him. Like, if the prayer is not orienting myself on a journey there, it's his journey to me. That's that's essentially Matthew the poor, what he was saying.

00;09;18;29 - 00;09;40;20
Joshua Hoffert
So that's accept to have no results is he's coming to me. I'm not trying to earn my way to him. Yeah, yeah. And, but that's a hard that's a hard. We learned the layers of, the layers of how, how we have built, we've built layers within ourself that try and earn their way towards Jesus. Right.

00;09;40;20 - 00;10;05;23
Joshua Hoffert
I was telling Mary earlier that I was listening to, Jordan Peterson, podcast, and he was talking about how, he was doing it with, Andrew Huberman, a, I think another psychologist or neuroscientist or something down at another doctor in down in California. And they were they were talking about how all of our impulses are basically micro personalities.

00;10;05;26 - 00;10;07;04
Murray Dueck
That's a big statement.

00;10;07;06 - 00;10;29;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, it's a big statement. And, and so just in in the context of that. Right. Except to have no results, we have these micro personalities that we learn through the layers and layers of our self, how much we've built up protective layers to try and earn our way towards God, or earn our earning the affection of the people around us, and thus earning the affection of God as well.

00;10;29;06 - 00;10;54;00
Joshua Hoffert
Right? And so we start to see more and more of those, those, the, the tendencies within ourselves to do that in there. And they really have, you know, very strong wills associated with them. And, it takes a, it takes essentially it takes a long time to die. The death the gospel calls us to. Yes. Yeah.

00;10;54;00 - 00;11;07;11
Joshua Hoffert
And it's not a, it's not a, it's not a quick death. It's because we hold on. Right. I think, Francis Phelan Fenelon said, suffering is only suffering because of the pain that we add to it.

00;11;07;14 - 00;11;22;24
Murray Dueck
I would agree, I think I often think it's like hanging on the monkey bars. If you guys have ever crossed the bars. Yeah, yeah. And you're about halfway and you know, you're not going to make it. You're going to fall. And life is kind of like that. I'm going to wheel myself through this. I'm going to kill it.

00;11;22;24 - 00;11;37;22
Murray Dueck
And you get halfway cross and you go, I ain't gonna make it. Yeah. And we think underneath us is this giant chasm that if we let go, oh my goodness. So we sweat and strain and it's painful and our arms hurt. And finally we go to drop.

00;11;37;24 - 00;11;38;14
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;11;38;16 - 00;11;42;08
Murray Dueck
And it's six inches below our feet. Yeah. That's right is God is right there.

00;11;42;09 - 00;11;44;14
Joshua Hoffert
Merciful and kind and tender.

00;11;44;17 - 00;11;59;16
Murray Dueck
But it's our own belief systems of our failure and what life should be like and how it should go. And I have to live up to this. It's the torment of all of that that creates the chasm and our need to cross it in our own will and strength and thinking.

00;11;59;18 - 00;12;01;20
Joshua Hoffert
And really realize it. Men. Right it is.

00;12;01;24 - 00;12;12;15
Murray Dueck
Yeah, right. It is. It's a real torment. But yeah, but to realize that the father actually is like, oh my goodness, he was actually right here the whole time. Yeah. Oh my, that's not even true.

00;12;12;18 - 00;12;13;12
Joshua Hoffert
Like.

00;12;13;15 - 00;12;17;11
Murray Dueck
It's, which we will come up to is in here a second ago.

00;12;17;13 - 00;12;18;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, but.

00;12;18;08 - 00;12;21;27
Murray Dueck
It will make, you know, we'll give it a bit more context here in a minute, everybody. So just so you know.

00;12;21;29 - 00;12;31;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So point number three is labor with endurance and prayer. Right. Don't give up. Don't quit. It's you know, that's some of the best advice. All.

00;12;31;04 - 00;12;31;27
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;12;31;29 - 00;12;41;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. You'll ever it's it's, Dwight from the office saying the best advice. Michael. Michael, the boss ever gave him was, Don't be an idiot.

00;12;41;23 - 00;12;42;20
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;12;42;22 - 00;13;05;17
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And, hurts my feelings, but, hurts my feelings. But it's the best advice I've ever been given. He says something like that, you know? Yeah, it's a labor within. It's like these are. These are the the the the the true spiritual instruction is simple. It's not complicated. It really it has to be simple because it's applicable to every human being.

00;13;06;08 - 00;13;28;28
Joshua Hoffert
Right. So labor with endurance and prayer the number four is accept to remain dry. And in a way the point that we're on today builds off of that one as well. Yeah. Except to remain dry. And we're not the spiritual journey. And the spiritual life is not about emotional highs or emotional lows. Those things come and go with experience.

00;13;29;00 - 00;13;50;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. With just life. The journey of life. If we're if we're and this is a this is of particular note, I think in some of the circles that Murray and I were raised in, you know, the charismatic Pentecostal side of things, that it's only a good service if there's an emotional high to the worship music or the preaching is really effective.

00;13;50;09 - 00;13;58;16
Joshua Hoffert
And so it stirs my emotions. And so then we learn to associate emotional, emotional highs with spiritual maturity.

00;13;58;19 - 00;14;19;20
Murray Dueck
Which is. So there's a good reason in an Orthodox church there ain't no instruments. And why it's not because they're against instruments, it's because they want you to reign in your emotions, to be able to see what God is doing inside your spirit, and the moving of the spirit inside of you. Instead of looking at externals.

00;14;19;22 - 00;14;23;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's right. It's not equal maturity. Yeah, it just.

00;14;23;25 - 00;14;24;01
Murray Dueck
Means.

00;14;24;02 - 00;14;24;27
Joshua Hoffert
Excitement.

00;14;24;29 - 00;14;40;19
Murray Dueck
And a whole nother story. Maybe because, but, you know, there's a Pentecostal saying that I really like. So which is it's not how high a jump, it's how far you walk after you've hit the ground.

00;14;40;21 - 00;14;43;13
Joshua Hoffert
While it's thinking about just thinking about this in light.

00;14;43;16 - 00;14;45;01
Murray Dueck
That's a great thing, but I really.

00;14;45;01 - 00;15;08;08
Joshua Hoffert
Like it. Is it really is. Psalm. Psalm 56 or 57, I think says, my heart is steadfast. Oh, God. Right. And it's and actually, Matthew, the poor quotes that in relation to the father's coming to us, my heart is steadfast. It's the Lord that comes to us. But but that's boring, right? That's that that the perception of that is boring.

00;15;08;14 - 00;15;08;21
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;15;08;21 - 00;15;23;20
Joshua Hoffert
The present being steadfast and being immovable. That's boring. Right? I want to be moved. I want to feel right. And it's like, no, that's not, that's doesn't produce maturity. And it's not the sign of spiritual maturity as being.

00;15;23;24 - 00;15;26;20
Murray Dueck
It's not a bad place to start, but it's not a good place to end.

00;15;26;20 - 00;15;48;23
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Yeah. That's right. We're not I'm not demeaning it. I'm just saying is yeah. It's not the it's not the pathway that produces Christ's likeness. And it's, you know, Jesus felt great emotions. Right. Another office references Michael Scott talks about his great capacity to feel and that somehow makes him a good boss. But we know it's not right.

00;15;48;23 - 00;16;13;26
Joshua Hoffert
He's. Yeah, it's it's not. It's so so that's point for except to remain dry. And that can be a very difficult thing. To overcome is the, the I remember anyway, we've already talked about all that so I'm not going to go point five is trust. We talked about that. Right. And yeah trust is trust is anchored in the father is not anchored in another individual.

00;16;13;28 - 00;16;39;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. We're talking about attachment styles. And when you when you know lots of people who grow up with an insecure attachment, their attachment theory is, you have secure attachment or insecure attachment. And insecure attachment can take on various different forms. When you have an anxious attachment or an avoidant attachment, it's very difficult to trust because you can't trust yourself and you can't trust others when you have a secure attachment.

00;16;39;18 - 00;16;53;26
Joshua Hoffert
Trust is anchored in how your parents loved you and what they put into you, and you can't give what you don't have. And it's difficult to grow in something that you haven't seen. So how do you grow in a way that you don't know what it looks like? You need other people around you.

00;16;53;26 - 00;16;57;19
Murray Dueck
And so trust, trust, trust is important.

00;16;57;19 - 00;17;18;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Trust doesn't start in I trust a leader or I trust other people or they've earned my trust. Trust starts an infant stage of development and is anchored in encounter with the father. And then that brings you, hopefully that brings you to people that you can walk with and trust. Because you trust the father. So but that breaks down.

00;17;18;12 - 00;17;38;24
Joshua Hoffert
And we talked all about that, because people are people. Yeah. But what will keep you? Well, will keep you resilient in the face of the failures of other people is that my trust is anchored in what the father is like, not in what people do. So, you know that we talked all through that so you can listen to the previous episode for that.

00;17;38;26 - 00;17;58;09
Joshua Hoffert
And it's a it's a hard thing. Trust it's not a, you know, it's not an easy thing. I think we were going back and forth talking about is trust earned? In a way, yes, but in a way not because trust is also of a thing that we can't have if it was never given to us in the first place.

00;17;58;11 - 00;18;29;24
Joshua Hoffert
So, so it is earned, but it's not earned because it's a result of who I've become, not what other people are like. But it can be broken for sure. And yeah, but if I've never had the encounter with the father that that deposits trust in me and that orients me around that. And if I don't have, if I haven't had good parents, you know, like you're having good parents connection set you, set you up for trust later in life, then I'm whooped before I even begin to trust, because I'll trust the wrong people for the wrong thing.

00;18;29;27 - 00;18;35;01
Joshua Hoffert
Because I have layers of my personality that want desired outcomes. So these all these.

00;18;35;03 - 00;18;36;02
Murray Dueck
Things are.

00;18;36;05 - 00;18;39;03
Joshua Hoffert
Nuances to all these all these rules. Right. They. Yeah.

00;18;39;03 - 00;19;07;06
Murray Dueck
Little they're simple little rules. But then when you scratch the surface, there's a lot more underneath. And profound I mean like I think right there I mean, I have to make this make sense. I mean, this statement of, Silwan, one of those guys said, or saffron, enlargement of the heart, you know, you know, Abu Zacharias, those three guys said, the surest sign of being filled with the Holy Spirit.

00;19;07;06 - 00;19;10;02
Murray Dueck
What is it to love your enemies.

00;19;10;04 - 00;19;10;29
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;19;11;01 - 00;19;30;23
Murray Dueck
To love your enemies. And it's like, you know, again, in the in the charismatic circles, it. Well, it must be speaking in tongues. It must be this. It must be that. If you just think of what you would need to go through in life to come to that conclusion, right? To build like a love for your enemies.

00;19;30;23 - 00;19;36;26
Murray Dueck
Like, like because you have to trust the nature of the father so much.

00;19;36;28 - 00;19;37;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;19;37;20 - 00;19;47;01
Murray Dueck
That you could open your heart up. I mean, that, you know, again, we're like, well, that's something you do. No, it's something you become.

00;19;47;03 - 00;19;47;16
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;19;47;23 - 00;19;59;12
Murray Dueck
Because somebody loves them. Yeah, right. It's a developmental stage of because you can trust the father so much. You can do this. And it's again, it's it's, a different way of being, isn't it?

00;19;59;14 - 00;20;21;13
Joshua Hoffert
Well, it's the, the, the, the the context of that statement in Matthew five. Right, is the Beatitudes. That's where it comes right after. And the first beatitude we talked about these things. Right. Earlier in the podcast many many moons ago. And the first beatitude is blessed are the poor in spirit, right. Blessed are those who don't have it all together but anchor themselves in the loving kindness of God.

00;20;21;14 - 00;20;43;08
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Theirs is the kingdom of heaven. So that's the that's the opening, the opening line of Jesus's kingdom. Vision is blessed are the poor in spirit, and you can't get to love your enemies if you don't start in. I'm poor in spirit and I need you right? That's you can't get any further, right? That's the introductory statement.

00;20;43;11 - 00;20;50;04
Murray Dueck
So that we should really go through those beatitudes. Yeah, because they build money there anyway. Okay.

00;20;50;06 - 00;20;51;03
Joshua Hoffert
It's a beautiful thing.

00;20;51;03 - 00;21;07;14
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah, it's a beautiful thing. I mean, it's Jesus's. It's so funny. I tell everybody, it'd be interesting listening audience a little poor because, you know, we teach I teach people how to how to hear the Lord speaking part. You know, part of that is learning. How does imagination connect with eyes of the heart, with spirit of revelation?

00;21;07;14 - 00;21;31;18
Murray Dueck
Right. That's Ephesians one. Yeah. And I say to everyone, and yeah, I just find it interesting and, you know, connect us back to the Beatitudes here. I see how many of you can picture David and Goliath. You tell me the story. Absolutely. How many of you could tell me the story of Noah? Everybody. How many of you, could tell me the story of of, you know, Moses on the mountain or the Good Samaritan or the prodigal son?

00;21;31;24 - 00;21;39;27
Murray Dueck
Everybody. Right. How many can tell me the Beatitudes in order? In 25 years? One guy?

00;21;39;29 - 00;21;40;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;21;40;18 - 00;21;50;15
Murray Dueck
One guy. And that's because he'd been working on it that day. Yeah. Most people can't give you three. So here's Jesus's opus as Christians and nobody knows it.

00;21;50;17 - 00;21;51;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;21;51;11 - 00;22;11;11
Murray Dueck
It's a bit it's a bit surprising, you know, because this is his you know, this is his focal point of of ministry. And I mean, one, you know, when I teach it, it's kind of like guys because we're, we're meant to picture that's why there's parables to see it just learning didactic I mean in that context. But it's what we're talking about today.

00;22;11;11 - 00;22;40;00
Murray Dueck
It's surprising that we're looking at a theological backdrop even even today. And what we're going to talk about. Right. And we kind of don't live from there, which with fallen human nature, it's completely understandable. But it's it's funny that again, in 25 years, nobody like one guy like, yeah, it's it's very surprising that that's not. It's not in our thoughts every day.

00;22;40;02 - 00;22;47;06
Murray Dueck
Totally including me. Yeah. Like anyway so I yeah we're like we're really surprised.

00;22;47;11 - 00;22;51;15
Joshua Hoffert
We're pointing the fingers at ourselves. We're not pointing the finger at others. When we think like.

00;22;51;15 - 00;23;04;08
Murray Dueck
When we're trying to go for a drive to town and somebody cuts me off. I live in the Beatitudes at that moment. Guys going to get it? Yeah. Which is really sad because I know my nature and it's. Lord have mercy.

00;23;04;11 - 00;23;04;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;23;04;20 - 00;23;05;23
Murray Dueck
Moving on, because.

00;23;05;28 - 00;23;06;14
Joshua Hoffert
I've been on.

00;23;06;15 - 00;23;09;11
Murray Dueck
The last got cut off. I didn't go well.

00;23;09;13 - 00;23;31;15
Joshua Hoffert
So, point six, this is what we're talking about today. And and maybe point seven, except to remain in darkness and confusion. That's our that's our that's all the points that each one of these points has. Sub points. The sub points a point six is do not fear. Never stop praying. Turn your mind and heart to God with all your will.

00;23;31;18 - 00;23;35;01
Joshua Hoffert
Purify your life and remove that which hides God.

00;23;35;03 - 00;23;35;26
Murray Dueck
Amen.

00;23;35;28 - 00;23;39;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yes, and I think I'll start it off by saying.

00;23;39;15 - 00;23;41;21
Murray Dueck
What's point seven? Just if you don't mind chucking it out there.

00;23;41;23 - 00;23;51;20
Joshua Hoffert
If thankful all the time. Good luck. And and actually, we can we all we can talk. I think we can talk about these. Right.

00;23;51;23 - 00;23;53;10
Murray Dueck
Oh, yeah. They do. They're building on each other.

00;23;53;10 - 00;24;23;24
Joshua Hoffert
Which which is when you trust accepting to remain in darkness and confusion comes more naturally. Right. And and then when you accept to remain in darkness and confusion, being thankful all the time, but it actually builds upon that. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so except to remain in darkness and confusion and I think, I think, you know, we could, we could you can, you know, you had mentioned earlier when Marie and I, when we were talking, we can characterize this through the cloud of unknowing.

00;24;23;24 - 00;24;24;10
Murray Dueck
Yes.

00;24;24;11 - 00;24;27;18
Joshua Hoffert
We can characterize this through the dark night of the soul.

00;24;27;19 - 00;24;29;13
Murray Dueck
Yeah, absolutely, I think so.

00;24;29;20 - 00;24;42;06
Joshua Hoffert
Claire characterized this through Michael Molinos. Another, one of the Catholic, spiritual authors following after John of the cross calls it the veil of dryness.

00;24;42;08 - 00;24;43;07
Murray Dueck
I hate that thing.

00;24;43;10 - 00;24;49;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. The veil or the dryness, you know, or,

00;24;49;07 - 00;24;50;18
Murray Dueck
The both of them.

00;24;50;21 - 00;24;56;20
Joshua Hoffert
They're making me think, too. There's the the story and Song of Solomon. That's another thing we should cover more extensively is.

00;24;56;22 - 00;25;00;08
Murray Dueck
Yes, absolutely. We really are 100% the.

00;25;00;09 - 00;25;33;05
Joshua Hoffert
The shoe of my bride wears a veil until she doesn't. You know, think of the veil of dryness. Anyway, veil of dryness is not valley, it's ville. Is what he's saying. And, yes. So, or or even going back to a mona's, right. We've referenced a mona's a bishop a number of times. The brilliant fourth, fifth century, following Anthony the Great talking about, the desert, the desert, how it becomes the home, of people who are called there, right.

00;25;33;05 - 00;26;06;16
Joshua Hoffert
That that place of wilderness and dryness and confusion became becomes the place of comfort. And I think that's very true. Right? When when my heart yearns for not emotional high, not teaching meetings, worship, but when my heart yearns for the father in in beautiful attachment. Then I my, that's and that's, the, the, the Psalms 68 or something like that.

00;26;06;16 - 00;26;26;13
Joshua Hoffert
66, 67 somewhere in there, I think it says, you know, when it talks about, the Lord is my rock, my expectation is from him. Right? That word expectation is my my chord is actually what it is. My attachment is from him. And now he's my rock. So I'm attached to him and my heart naturally yearns for him.

00;26;26;13 - 00;26;50;22
Joshua Hoffert
And he becomes my steadfast place. And so accepting to remain in darkness and confusion is a result of knowing what he's like. That that he is my rock. That he that he is my firm place, that he is my foundation. And so if I'm, if I'm in darkness and there's a problem with darkness or confusion is that's when we start to plan and plot our way out.

00;26;50;25 - 00;27;07;07
Joshua Hoffert
And when we start to plan and plot our way, then we come into what, the Psalms calls the the deep heart of man that who plots and devises schemes and and plans iniquity so that I can get my way out of it. Right.

00;27;07;09 - 00;27;15;21
Murray Dueck
And that and that's kind of everybody what the core of every piece here is. So, like all these steps is about dealing with that.

00;27;15;23 - 00;27;16;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

00;27;16;04 - 00;27;17;25
Murray Dueck
And,

00;27;17;28 - 00;27;19;01
Joshua Hoffert
The deep heart.

00;27;19;04 - 00;27;20;19
Murray Dueck
Yeah. The deep heart.

00;27;20;21 - 00;27;21;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;27;21;17 - 00;27;25;10
Murray Dueck
So.

00;27;25;12 - 00;27;30;17
Joshua Hoffert
Hey, Murray, do you know that we have a Patreon, right? We probably don't talk about it enough.

00;27;30;19 - 00;27;52;05
Murray Dueck
Yeah, we should, and. Yeah, and the reason we're talking about it every today, everybody is that is that, as you know, Josh and I tend to chat for a good hour the before session. And we did. You did quite a cool thing today just in case you've kind of happened to spontaneous. But the Lord is with us and and we would like you to to be in on those chat.

00;27;52;07 - 00;28;03;20
Murray Dueck
And can we record them and we you know, we really like them to be with those that are really walking with us and think this is going somewhere and want to support us. So we're going to put these conversations in the patron.

00;28;03;23 - 00;28;04;05
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;28;04;05 - 00;28;20;25
Murray Dueck
And, so, Josh, maybe tell us a little bit about what Patreon is and how he does connect. And because you guys, I think would really kind of like this a little more intimate, a little bit more what's going on in your life right now? But it does. It fits really well with, the material a little deeper, right?

00;28;20;25 - 00;28;22;02
Murray Dueck
A little deeper.

00;28;22;05 - 00;28;32;23
Joshua Hoffert
We take the conversation deeper, we talk more personally. We and we we kind of record through our thought process leading up to every one of these podcasts. Yeah, that's that's right.

00;28;32;24 - 00;28;33;20
Murray Dueck
I think.

00;28;33;23 - 00;28;49;20
Joshua Hoffert
It. Yeah. That's right, it was. Patreon is a platform you can join for a few dollars a month to support. Murray and I support the podcast, enable us to continue to, put, more episodes out because it's this is entirely.

00;28;49;23 - 00;28;51;02
Murray Dueck
Listener funded.

00;28;51;04 - 00;28;54;07
Joshua Hoffert
Funded, and it's not even really funded by listeners because.

00;28;54;09 - 00;28;55;28
Murray Dueck
We don't we don't even.

00;28;56;01 - 00;29;11;26
Joshua Hoffert
We don't do a whole lot of appealing for that kind of stuff. So, but yeah, you can support us through Patreon and get, get access to more content there. And yeah, ask us questions and suggest topics and all that kind of stuff. So like, if you like that dialog and, yeah. So check it out.

00;29;11;27 - 00;29;20;23
Joshua Hoffert
It's voices from the desert.com/art. Sorry. Patreon.com slash voices from the desert.

00;29;20;25 - 00;29;33;18
Murray Dueck
Yeah. So thank you. Don't you guys that want to go deeper. And so we've set this up for you and we appreciate your support. And and I hope you find some stories and tools and things there to talk to, to inspire you.

00;29;33;20 - 00;29;40;22
Joshua Hoffert
All right. So blessings everyone.

00;29;40;24 - 00;29;46;12
Murray Dueck
Go ahead. I mean I'll, I if I jump in here I'm taking the mic. You're not getting it back for a bit. So.

00;29;46;14 - 00;29;51;27
Joshua Hoffert
Well yeah. No go ahead. That's, Yeah. So just kind of trying to characterize the whole thing. So you take over for sure.

00;29;51;27 - 00;30;14;06
Murray Dueck
Okay, so let's just check this out here. So guys everybody. So again he's going through an intentional stage process here of of of the working of your soul. And trying to get that sucker the heart the or the deep part of the heart kind of tamed here a little bit so it can shut up enough to hear God, right?

00;30;14;07 - 00;30;15;03
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Okay.

00;30;15;08 - 00;30;17;23
Joshua Hoffert
So so with that we could say Terraform.

00;30;17;23 - 00;30;36;08
Murray Dueck
Terraform is such a good word. So yeah. So think about Ephesians three in this regard. Right. So people are freaking out three calls in prison that he might die. And he says to them, because you're freaking out. I pray God would strengthen you in their inner man. Because, remember, they're they're they're having they believe something. Paul might die.

00;30;36;16 - 00;30;54;28
Murray Dueck
So they're having an emotional reaction, right? So he's like, hey, I got to get you out of this part of your being. You're the wrong person. So I pray God would strengthen your inner man. So Christ may dwell in your heart by faith so that you would know how high and wide and long and deep deepest. The love of God that surpasses kenosis, head knowledge, die, and Noah might be the word there.

00;30;54;28 - 00;31;24;08
Murray Dueck
So dialectic, dialectic thinking so that so that you may be filled to all that the spirit. Right. You got to you got to get in here, guys. Your outer world is affecting you. Okay. So just think about that. So the problem is with belief system is that if our brain is running the show the left side of our mind and not our inner man, which is ever since the fall.

00;31;24;08 - 00;31;41;20
Murray Dueck
Right? Adam and Eve in the garden. Hey, why are you guys hiding? Because I had shame. He's come to a logical conclusion. Yeah, but he's hiding from his best friend. And now he thinks he's a judge. You know? Why are you hiding the woman you put here with me like he's blaming her? That's what the Desert Fathers say.

00;31;41;28 - 00;32;04;01
Murray Dueck
If you didn't give me this woman, this, none of this would have happened, right? So we, you know, I mean, so just look at his thinking. Is any of it based on reality? Well, no, it's not so. But the problem is, is that, when the Lord is working on the inner man, he's trying to bring everything back into order.

00;32;04;01 - 00;32;19;24
Murray Dueck
So, Gregory, I think it was Greg give, Nyssa said. And I get my Gregory's mixed up. Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory of Manzini, and I get a mixed up. He said, the heart is like a pipe, which moves water. So this inner man, this, as Paul was talking about.

00;32;19;26 - 00;32;46;28
Murray Dueck
Hold on one second. I must obey my cat. And, just give me one second. Yeah. I haven't seen you like for dead work. That and you're going to just have to make that work. So. Okay. Sorry, everybody. I have a new kitten which has made this kitten move out of the house, and I haven't seen her for a day and a half, so it's a little bit worried.

00;32;46;28 - 00;32;47;20
Murray Dueck
So here she is.

00;32;47;21 - 00;32;48;26
Joshua Hoffert
That's good.

00;32;49;02 - 00;32;54;20
Murray Dueck
So talk about the inner maggots, though. My goodness. Okay. So,

00;32;54;23 - 00;32;56;24
Joshua Hoffert
We tell the kittens about the cat's back, so we're.

00;32;56;24 - 00;33;21;02
Murray Dueck
Happy. I'm. I got lots of dogs, but I'm more of a cat person. It's so just back to this thing with. Think of it like this. Value test. If you don't mind, I just. I just want to get an idea what he's kind of Paul's talking about and why this your brain. You know, if your brain's not getting it, it's not a bad thing.

00;33;21;04 - 00;33;46;14
Murray Dueck
It's not supposed to be running the show anyway, right? Right. If we want to put it that way. So. When I came back super quick, I came back from Wham, 1984. God spoke to me. I was really a suicide basket case. And because I try to earn God's love as the minute I told doesn't speak today and a long story has this encounter with God, it changed my life.

00;33;46;14 - 00;34;06;11
Murray Dueck
I do everything I do today because because of this event, right? Come back and I'm I guys guess what God speaks today and my pastor says, well, preaching is prophecy, but that's what it is. We don't need the rest of it today, right? What? Well, then what just happened to me? My friends are like, you know, we kind of like the old guy better, you know?

00;34;06;11 - 00;34;30;20
Murray Dueck
You think you could just chuck all that and be pre meeting God, Murray, what? But this changed my life, right? Well, if you just think about that, my mind now and my emotions are I might lose my friends, my mentors, and my mind is now coming up with a plan. What am I going to do?

00;34;30;22 - 00;34;49;24
Murray Dueck
And I'm realizing the other people that came back from what I am after a year, not everybody. Some of them kept pushing on. Once they just you know, went to church, stood up, sit down, you know, sing Psalm 105, go up for pie, go home. You know, once you buy the agenda, you're back in. But if you don't write it out, right.

00;34;49;29 - 00;35;12;22
Murray Dueck
So my mind and my emotions now are doing something. They're freaking out. Where's my community? What should I do? What's true? What's right now comes to a point. I've got to make a decision. I and my decision eventually is I need to follow the Lord. I, I and I'm like, this impactful event really happened. It changed me. I want more of this, right?

00;35;12;23 - 00;35;32;10
Murray Dueck
I can't, so there's a part of me inside that where God's life is his Zoe life. I need this and that part of me finally just it's like. And my brain finally goes, you know what? We're going to find more teaching on this. We're going to find your resources on this. Right? We are going to find a community.

00;35;32;12 - 00;35;59;06
Murray Dueck
And guess what? All that stuff, it stops. It stops because my mind now is supporting my inner man rather than my mind wanting to rule the inner man and make everything perfect. Right? There had to be a change of my inner structure where I was living out of my inner man, not the other way around. Right? The reason I tell you that story, I'm sure most of you have gone through that where it's like, you've got to make a decision to follow Christ, and it's going to cost you something.

00;35;59;08 - 00;36;19;03
Murray Dueck
And you're aware of the inner trauma, the inner stirring. Right? And you've probably come to the point if you're watching, listening to this, I'm think this would be true. You know what? I'm going to do this no matter what. And something inside of you in your heart goes, you know what? It's going to be okay. And this sense of rest comes now.

00;36;19;03 - 00;36;42;02
Murray Dueck
That's a process, but it shows that the mind wants to figure it out. It tries really, really hard. It can't. And eventually it's going to go, you know what I'm going to trust and I'm going to follow. But for a period of time your mind just had to be in darkness there. It can't do it. It doesn't have the tools, it doesn't have the resources.

00;36;42;08 - 00;37;11;08
Murray Dueck
It's going to have to just surrender. And no matter what you do, eventually this encounter with God you've had, whether it's, you know, I think contemplative prayers for today in your churches. I don't think so. And you're like, I kind of values, you know, it could be anything. There has to be a reordering. And when often we walk into the darkness and our brains not getting it, what's happening is like this pipe Gregor of Nausea talked about.

00;37;11;11 - 00;37;36;01
Murray Dueck
Let's go back to that quickly. I didn't describe it properly. Sorry, I do have pneumonia. Everybody, you're going to have to put up with my wander. All right. He says water naturally flows downhill. But if you put water in a pipe, you can make it go straight up. Right? And when we love the Lord God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength we bring ourselves, we are dis can remember the word they use, dispersed.

00;37;36;01 - 00;37;44;16
Murray Dueck
We are dispersed. Yeah, but once we bring that all together, you can make that water go straight up. So can your soul to God.

00;37;44;23 - 00;37;45;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

00;37;45;25 - 00;38;19;11
Murray Dueck
But it's only often after we see have this period of our brain not being able to figure it out, our emotions going everywhere. And this part of us, it goes. I wish to pursue to be hungry and thirsty. I wish this. Yeah, and there's a divine reordering in this process that begins to happen with us. And this is not a one time thing, but that divine reordering helps the mind and the emotions become the servant to your inner man rather than the master.

00;38;19;14 - 00;38;20;01
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;38;20;04 - 00;38;39;09
Murray Dueck
And that's what Paul is trying to help the Ephesians and chapter three do right. And that's why we go through periods of dryness and confusion over what happens in these periods. We go, God, I'm mad at you. Why are you mad? Because you want more of it.

00;38;39;12 - 00;38;40;01
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;38;40;03 - 00;39;01;24
Murray Dueck
The part of you that wants more needs to get stronger. Well, the part of you that has to figure it all out needs to become the servant. Right? And that journey of transformation happens in inner prayer a lot. But it's not a sign that you're doing anything wrong. It's actually a sign that change is happening and there's a reordering.

00;39;01;24 - 00;39;25;06
Murray Dueck
The pipe is being built. You're learning to live out of your your heart where Christ dwells, not just out of your emotions or your mind or, and and so it seems very, very difficult. It is difficult the soul affected from the knowledge of the tree of good and evil, you know. And when we look at Adam, Adam and Eve, it wants right wisdom.

00;39;25;06 - 00;39;48;13
Murray Dueck
It wants knowledge. That's, you know, when he saw it was good for human wisdom, right. But the process is actually moving us forward. My father would say it's dying on the installment program. Right. So. But it but that's why, like, like, you know, zip through, zip through. If you don't mind, just read them off quickly. Stages 1 to 6.

00;39;48;13 - 00;39;50;01
Murray Dueck
One more time.

00;39;50;04 - 00;40;00;03
Joshua Hoffert
Seek self renunciation. Except to have no results. Labor with endurance and prayer except to remain dry. Trust and accept to remain in darkness and confusion.

00;40;00;06 - 00;40;27;05
Murray Dueck
So you see how every one of those is dealing with the soul, mind, will and emotions except being dry. Don't worry about confusion. Strengthen these parts of you. Trust and thankfulness warms the heart, right? So there's a process of inner change. The pipe is being built. It's a matter of everyday walking the process, knowing your soul and the effects of the fall upon it or being healed.

00;40;27;08 - 00;40;36;18
Murray Dueck
Yeah, and coming back into the right order. So blessed are the pure in heart for what they shall see. God. Yeah. Anyway, there you go. That's my rant.

00;40;36;20 - 00;40;42;05
Joshua Hoffert
Know that it's that is, you know, less rant, more wisdom.

00;40;42;07 - 00;40;43;11
Murray Dueck
Not bad for a sick guy.

00;40;43;19 - 00;40;51;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. There you go. Well, you know, just a side note to that too. I think with Gregory, and the channeling the water.

00;40;51;15 - 00;40;53;14
Murray Dueck
That was that, which Gregory was it? You would probably.

00;40;53;14 - 00;40;54;15
Joshua Hoffert
Know, I can't remember.

00;40;54;15 - 00;41;04;01
Murray Dueck
Okay, I'll look up later. Sorry, everybody. I should know that, but but no, Josh writes down all these quotes. I just figure I'm smart enough to remember who and where it is, and I don't so.

00;41;04;02 - 00;41;06;16
Joshua Hoffert
Well, you remember those vague references.

00;41;06;16 - 00;41;06;26
Murray Dueck
I know.

00;41;06;26 - 00;41;34;28
Joshua Hoffert
I'm good at. Anyway. So Psalm 40, essentially Psalm 42 is essentially an exploration of that theme. Is the theme of the it's all water channeling towards the father. That's that's Psalm 42. Anyway, so I think there's there's strong biblical metaphor there. The dispersal of the thoughts, bringing them back, channeling upwards. And, you know, it's interesting.

00;41;34;28 - 00;41;48;12
Joshua Hoffert
I'm just thinking about this. The, the the the darkness and confusion that's inherent to being human. Because every day we're we're faced with it. We structure and order our lives to try and eliminate it.

00;41;48;15 - 00;41;48;27
Murray Dueck
Yes.

00;41;48;28 - 00;42;10;15
Joshua Hoffert
And and we educate ourselves to reduce pain. Right. We produce processes and systems so that pain is reduced. We organize into communities and cities. So we don't have to approach fear the same way. But you sit alone and and see yourself for a moment, and darkness and confusion is always present. It always is,

00;42;10;17 - 00;42;13;18
Murray Dueck
Busy all the time. Get it? Run. Let it run.

00;42;13;20 - 00;42;23;12
Joshua Hoffert
A Sarah said, one of the Desert Mothers. She's. I think it was Sarah. She said, each man is a little world. And in and of himself, right where I.

00;42;23;14 - 00;42;24;21
Murray Dueck
Could save it.

00;42;24;24 - 00;42;47;06
Joshua Hoffert
And the thing is, when you sit in that world, you realize how foreign it is, right? How empty it is, how chaotic it is. And and, you know, I'm thinking you mentioned, Eve. Right. And, you know, and we were talking about micro personalities, earlier. Right. I'm just thinking about this is the impulse that takes over, has a reason and a thought process.

00;42;47;06 - 00;43;11;23
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Yeah. No, there's a there's an impulse that goes, it's good for food, desirable to make one wise. And it's pleasing to the eyes. Right. The the fruit. Right. That's not what the devil said. Right. Or the serpent says. That's what Eve reasoned. So she's got the the impulse. She's got the logical thought process that works its way out and convinces her that she should take this thing that she's been told not to take right.

00;43;11;25 - 00;43;27;22
Joshua Hoffert
And so. So then what? Overcome? What overwhelms them, of course, is this feeling of guilt and shame. What the the the the separation that happens not because the father separates. Because they separate. Because the father comes to the garden.

00;43;27;27 - 00;43;28;06
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;43;28;06 - 00;43;43;23
Joshua Hoffert
He don't looking for them. Right. And not in a way that says get out of my garden, but in the way that says, come to me. So, their perception of him changed because of what they did there. He didn't change in his disposition towards them.

00;43;43;24 - 00;43;45;02
Murray Dueck
Absolutely brilliant.

00;43;45;02 - 00;44;13;09
Joshua Hoffert
And so we we go through this, right? This we we sit in this darkness and confusion and all of a sudden, the deep heart that's plotted and schemed starts to come up. Right? We recognize in ourselves a little bit of Eve, right? We've got a a impulse within us that goes well, but it's good for me. Right. Well, but it's going to be helpful for me if I take this job or if I take this person, or if I if I manipulate this outcome and get the desirable effect right, it will be good for me.

00;44;13;11 - 00;44;14;15
Joshua Hoffert
So we have the reason.

00;44;14;15 - 00;44;18;13
Murray Dueck
Ruth says, and it'll produce. Therefore I've reason it out. So therefore it's right.

00;44;18;13 - 00;44;30;02
Joshua Hoffert
Because it a now. Yeah. And now I've I've completely removed God from the equation and I've become God in my own thought process, in my own.

00;44;30;03 - 00;44;31;15
Murray Dueck
I am the center of my own.

00;44;31;15 - 00;44;55;17
Joshua Hoffert
I'm the center of the attention, right? And so, so all. So I don't need him anymore. I just need myself. The problem is, the outcome that's produced is never the thing we predict. Because these are base impulses that rule and destroy. Yeah, and disintegrate the inner man. Right. They disperse the thoughts. So what happens is I end up destroying my relationships, right?

00;44;55;17 - 00;45;08;02
Joshua Hoffert
I don't end up cultivating my relationships. Right. So if Eve eats of the tree, right? Listens to the the the, the inner thought, the deep thought that goes, it's good for food. Desirable.

00;45;08;06 - 00;45;24;12
Murray Dueck
And if you guys look back at that passage, I'll just throw this out. It says word for word. And Adam, who is there with her? Yeah, he's sitting through there the whole time this is going on. It's not like he was in some other part of the garden and going, honey. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. Yeah. He's like right there letting it happen.

00;45;24;13 - 00;45;43;15
Joshua Hoffert
The man who was with her took an eat it to eat of it after she did. Yeah. So but none of those things happened. It wasn't desirable to make one wise. Right. It wasn't good for food, actually. What? They ended up being very poor for food because Adam had to till the land afterwards in order to feed them.

00;45;43;18 - 00;46;04;29
Joshua Hoffert
Right. So all of the predicted outcomes that she had reasoned herself through, every one of them falls apart. None of them produce a desired outcome. Right. And that's not on the serpent. That's on her and him. Right. So then we get to this point, except to remain in darkness and confusion, instead of taking of the tree, taking of the fruit, and eating of it.

00;46;05;06 - 00;46;25;05
Joshua Hoffert
You know, she's confused by the words of the serpent. They've been twisted. What the. What did the. Did God really say this? You really say this, right? It's. She's in confusion and darkness and and rather than accepting to remain in confusion and darkness and waiting for the father to come again and saying, hey, the serpent said, this is this true, right?

00;46;25;08 - 00;46;44;19
Joshua Hoffert
Wait. Rather than what she she reasons herself acts on it to get out of the present circumstances, to predict an outcome, and the outcome falls apart, right? Because your scheming, the deep heart scheming, never produces the desired result. It always produces a result which usually disintegrates relationships, I think.

00;46;44;21 - 00;46;45;08
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;46;45;10 - 00;47;09;18
Joshua Hoffert
Sorry. Yeah. So just just finishing the thought process, is that the whole point of accepting to remain in darkness and confusion is saying, I'm not going to respond to all of those impulses, no matter how much they try and control, control. My thought process. I'm going to remain in this place where I know I trust the Lord. And that's why he says, never stop praying, right?

00;47;09;18 - 00;47;12;15
Joshua Hoffert
Do not fear. Never stop praying. Yeah, and find yourself.

00;47;12;19 - 00;47;15;23
Murray Dueck
Centering your inner man right.

00;47;15;26 - 00;47;32;09
Joshua Hoffert
And right back to him. I'm trusting him. I'm not going to be afraid that all of the things that are starting to bubble to the surface going, well, you know, you know, one of the first, one of the first ones for a driven person, I'm sitting in silence, in darkness and confusion and going, I'm not working. I need to be working.

00;47;32;13 - 00;47;32;22
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;47;32;23 - 00;47;38;15
Murray Dueck
Yeah. That's a famous story of, I think it was a pastor goes to a psychologist.

00;47;38;21 - 00;47;39;05
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

00;47;39;12 - 00;47;54;21
Murray Dueck
Right, right. And he goes, take three days off, go in a retreat, silent retreat, just right be. And he comes back and he goes, oh, man, those are great. Three days. Well, what did you do? I read books, I worked on my sermons because I didn't tell you that. I just wanted you to be still because I drive myself crazy.

00;47;54;25 - 00;47;55;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;47;55;06 - 00;48;10;07
Murray Dueck
That's right. Isn't that the person you're giving to your congregants every week? Right. Exactly. I can't sit still and be. Well, that's what's really in you, right? Everybody, if you would just like. That's the part that's got learn to be a darkness. It's gotta just let go.

00;48;10;10 - 00;48;11;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;48;11;22 - 00;48;37;04
Murray Dueck
And if you, if you think everyone you know, I'm working on a book right now on this, kind of on this, this process, and, the acronym would be bed Bo, bed bo belief system, emotion, decision behavior, outcome. Right. Ben. Bo. And so when you look what Jesus is doing, he's always working on behavior and belief system.

00;48;37;04 - 00;48;58;01
Murray Dueck
I thought he's doing this trial because a rising and falling so many thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. Right. Core belief system. Right. And so again, you look at Adam, you look at saw Abraham create example right. Doing some things right. Pharaoh's going to come. He goes belief system. They're going to kill me and take you belief system.

00;48;58;01 - 00;49;08;11
Murray Dueck
So he has an emotion reaction. I'm going to die. Makes a decision here. Take my wife. Right. So his outcome, they take her, right? Yeah. And he repeats that belief system. That trigger.

00;49;08;13 - 00;49;09;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;49;09;12 - 00;49;27;21
Murray Dueck
With Ishmael, basically. Okay. I'm not having kids. I'm all, I'm going to die. I got it, you know? And he does it again with Abimelech. Yep. Until right at the end. Right. He goes, okay, if I kill Isaac. Hebrews 11, God's going to raise him from the dead. He's got a different belief system. Suddenly. Yeah. He's not protecting himself.

00;49;27;26 - 00;49;29;07
Joshua Hoffert
It didn't come easily.

00;49;29;09 - 00;49;58;10
Murray Dueck
Yeah, it didn't for 25 years. Yeah, right. 25 years. He goes, he's having a different emotional reaction. He's making a different decision. I'm going to follow this through. Yeah he's having a different outcome. And God says now that I know you fear me. Why? Because he feared people the whole time. Right. And and often when we get triggered by what people think of us, what they don't think of us, whether we succeed or fail, we get emotionally triggered.

00;49;58;10 - 00;50;00;27
Murray Dueck
We have to go. What's my belief system here?

00;50;01;00 - 00;50;01;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;50;01;22 - 00;50;22;12
Murray Dueck
That I'm feeling this way. Right. Because God's after that. That's the part that needs to learn to embrace darkness and let go of control that part. That's right. And Jesus is doing this with everybody all the time. Remember? That's his calling. Rich young ruler. Hey, go give everything you have away. Like, why does he do that? That's his core value system, right?

00;50;22;16 - 00;50;42;02
Murray Dueck
Right, right. He does it all the time. To the Pharisees, to Peter, to to everyone. Why? Because he wants their heart free. Yeah. And and for us to be willing to go through the process because that knowledge of the tree of of good and evil, we need to be. There's a sickness in mankind. Yeah, we need to be.

00;50;42;05 - 00;51;02;22
Murray Dueck
We need to be free. And that learning to not have control, to trust and just be heals our soul and puts us back in the right order, right? Because we don't even know. And we're having beliefs. It's like I remember when I was first pastoring and my wife would always say to me, because, you know, 68 hour weeks, I'm working the street kids.

00;51;02;22 - 00;51;25;28
Murray Dueck
There's like 100 them got saved in six months. You we used to our favorite verse was where there's no oxen. The stalls were clean, but where there's many oxen, there strength. Meaning, when you got a lot of oxen, you got lots of poop. Let me tell you, I've got some now. And because there's always something to do, and she would go, so, you know, you're spending so much time at the church, I'm like, well, who else is going to do these people need help, right?

00;51;25;28 - 00;51;29;10
Murray Dueck
You know, bring the kingdom till I burned out and garage really bad.

00;51;29;11 - 00;51;33;11
Joshua Hoffert
There's the micro personality with its reasons and logic and opinion. Yeah. Right.

00;51;33;11 - 00;51;41;07
Murray Dueck
I had I had I you know, she could not convince me. She would tell me straight to my face. You need to take more time off. You need to spend time with the kids.

00;51;41;08 - 00;51;41;29
Joshua Hoffert
And you probably.

00;51;41;29 - 00;51;43;00
Murray Dueck
This isn't good for your health.

00;51;43;00 - 00;51;57;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, there's a portion of course. Yeah, but there's a portion of you that goes. Yeah, that's all true, but. Right. So you've got some now you've got competing voices and competing opinions and competing attitudes right within your inner man. Right. Causing unrest and confusion and chaos.

00;51;57;21 - 00;52;14;22
Murray Dueck
So belief system I am what I do. Yeah emotion I, I, I feel good when people get saved. I feel good when these people are right. I make a decision. I'm going to work harder. My behavior is to to be out all the time with people and I'm having an outcome. I'm not seeing my family as much as I should.

00;52;14;22 - 00;52;20;22
Murray Dueck
Right? Right. But I'm thinking all of that is holy. Well, the Lord is going to have the challenge that I'm using.

00;52;20;25 - 00;52;21;12
Joshua Hoffert
And we think.

00;52;21;12 - 00;52;28;02
Murray Dueck
I'm going to have to be it. That part of me is going to have to go into darkness for me not to get a from her.

00;52;28;02 - 00;52;29;27
Joshua Hoffert
I'm getting love. I'm.

00;52;29;27 - 00;52;31;14
Murray Dueck
Yeah, lots of people.

00;52;31;20 - 00;52;34;00
Joshua Hoffert
Say all the stuff, right?

00;52;34;02 - 00;52;54;05
Murray Dueck
Yeah. So in other words, that darkness is the only way we're going to get free because our mind wants to run the show. And again, if you want to look at a quick version of it, quick version, I think it's my favorite one. You just look at name in the spirit, right? Here's this guy, commander of the armies of Syria.

00;52;54;05 - 00;53;13;25
Murray Dueck
He comes with two cart loads full of gold. I can't remember $3 million worth. It's something crazy, right? And he holds that sucker over 250 miles, you know. And what is he thinking? Elijah won't even come out since a servant, right? Can you imagine President Trump coming into your door and telling your kid to go, go away? Like how that would go?

00;53;14;02 - 00;53;31;23
Murray Dueck
Yeah, we can go. Wow, I don't think so. And he's completely offended. Why? I've come all this way, and now I'm supposed to bathe in the Jordan I got and his servants. Hey, listen, he would have told you to do something heroic act. You would have gone to the ends of the earth. Why? What's his core belief system?

00;53;31;25 - 00;53;34;26
Murray Dueck
He's a tough, strong, tough guy.

00;53;34;29 - 00;53;35;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;53;35;20 - 00;53;44;17
Murray Dueck
Right. And then his emotions are. Win it. Yeah. I'm proud I could've done it. He would have made a decision to do it, and then he would have had an outcome. I can earn this.

00;53;44;20 - 00;53;47;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I did it. Yeah, I did it.

00;53;47;04 - 00;54;06;14
Murray Dueck
So what's Elijah done? He's completely offended. The whole that whole process, he threw him into darkness of his mind. Yeah. In purpose. No. Go do something. Piddly little thing like a little kid would go do. Yeah. And Naaman can't take it because he can't hurt him. And he he doesn't go talk to him and remember, he does it.

00;54;06;14 - 00;54;11;09
Murray Dueck
The end. And when Neighmond does, he gets healed. He realizes, oh my goodness.

00;54;11;11 - 00;54;11;22
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;54;11;27 - 00;54;19;22
Murray Dueck
It's my own pride that's kept me an illness, right? Elijah offended him so he could be healed.

00;54;19;25 - 00;54;20;15
Joshua Hoffert
You know, that's.

00;54;20;15 - 00;54;27;14
Murray Dueck
Why he did it. He had to break down that bed bow. And that's right. He threw him into the darkness, a bind and in.

00;54;27;14 - 00;54;30;15
Joshua Hoffert
A way, it it. I'm just a side note, I remember you.

00;54;30;17 - 00;54;31;29
Murray Dueck
That was it. I got to the end of that.

00;54;31;29 - 00;54;56;05
Joshua Hoffert
So it, I just, you know, it's so funny that, the, the the entrance into salvation is, be baptized, right? It's not go to the ends of the earth and do a great heroic act. Right. It's go take a bath.

00;54;56;05 - 00;55;02;04
Murray Dueck
Which when we're. Yeah. When we're, it's kind of the same if you think about it like that. That isn't that Naaman in the Jordan. Yeah.

00;55;02;05 - 00;55;03;14
Joshua Hoffert
Like that's what, that's what I was just thinking.

00;55;03;14 - 00;55;05;17
Murray Dueck
It's like yeah. Yeah I thought of it that way before.

00;55;05;18 - 00;55;11;15
Joshua Hoffert
But it is. But it's like, hey, go take a bath and you'll be saved. It's like, wait a second, that's so simple. A kid could do it.

00;55;11;21 - 00;55;17;19
Murray Dueck
I got stuff to do. I could be dirty, right? I would name is do It. Is that what he was?

00;55;17;21 - 00;55;34;07
Joshua Hoffert
I should go, I I've got to try a lot harder than that. Right? Surely it's not just taking a bath. That's one of the things we mean. When I would read, the children's Bible to my kids. So let's talk about the time Jesus had a bath. Right. It's. They wanted to read that one. And the dove came.

00;55;34;09 - 00;55;44;21
Joshua Hoffert
So, you know, I think, I was just thinking about this, as you're saying, that that, the the way to navigate point six is point seven.

00;55;44;24 - 00;55;45;15
Murray Dueck
Yes.

00;55;45;15 - 00;55;45;28
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;55;46;02 - 00;55;46;28
Murray Dueck
Absolutely.

00;55;46;29 - 00;55;54;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right. It be thankful all the time. How do you navigate remaining in darkness and confusion and not trying to get yourself out?

00;55;54;03 - 00;55;54;27
Murray Dueck
Thankfulness.

00;55;54;27 - 00;55;56;26
Joshua Hoffert
Stay in thankfulness. And.

00;55;56;29 - 00;56;12;00
Murray Dueck
And that's why everybody and it's intentionally done. But when you look at Paul's who Ephesians three. Sorry, I'm now I'm drinking coffee. I'm like, yeah, okay. Again, I'm going to blame the meds here a little bit to do it. Go for it. But but remember he quoted Ephesians three minute ago, right about the heart.

00;56;12;03 - 00;56;13;00
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;56;13;02 - 00;56;33;21
Murray Dueck
So but if you read, you know, Ephesians were stay in the same book. Do not be drunk with wine, but be filled with the spirit. How do you do that? With prayer, with sing songs and spiritual songs to the Lord with thanksgiving. Yeah. And gratitude. Colossians three does the same thing, right? Yeah. With. And you just think about what Thanksgiving does to your inner man.

00;56;33;23 - 00;57;03;25
Murray Dueck
It rejoice always. Again I say rejoice. Thanksgiving warms up the heart and causes the heart to open well, bitterness, anger, envy closes the heart and and seals it so. And where the Holy Spirit dwells, an infilling of the Holy Spirit is connected. Rejoice always. Be thankful always to do that in the midst. When your mind is darkened and you don't know you're living out of a different part of your being, right?

00;57;04;01 - 00;57;13;02
Murray Dueck
Right? Thankful ness is causing you to live down here in your heart, your inner man. Right? Which again, we could talk about all that, but I think we have in the past.

00;57;13;07 - 00;57;14;24
Joshua Hoffert
In the water up. Right?

00;57;14;26 - 00;57;15;10
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;57;15;10 - 00;57;20;13
Joshua Hoffert
Or actually actually the water doesn't get pushed up, the water gets pulled up. Right. So that's a good.

00;57;20;13 - 00;57;20;28
Murray Dueck
Way to say.

00;57;20;28 - 00;57;22;04
Joshua Hoffert
It. Plug in the holes.

00;57;22;10 - 00;57;27;16
Murray Dueck
So thankfulness is a reason to urinate. Reinforce sorry.

00;57;27;16 - 00;57;28;22
Joshua Hoffert
Reorient.

00;57;28;24 - 00;57;34;07
Murray Dueck
Thank you. Can you say that word again please. Reorienting reorientation.

00;57;34;13 - 00;57;35;15
Joshua Hoffert
Reorientation.

00;57;35;17 - 00;57;54;01
Murray Dueck
Being based on your relationship to the nature of God, not your ability of your mind to figure it out or in any way perform. That's right. And eventually that will reorder your being into the right process. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

00;57;54;04 - 00;57;54;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;57;54;13 - 00;57;56;18
Murray Dueck
The upward the upward motion.

00;57;56;18 - 00;58;20;16
Joshua Hoffert
Upward motion right. The upward call. Right. The reorienting of the gaze. And it's not it's no longer on the because I remain. I'm in darkness and confusion. I'm in dryness, I'm trusting. But all this stuff is coming to the surface. And I'm trying to organize my way out of it again, thinking of even the garden. I'm trying to reason my way out of it and and.

00;58;20;17 - 00;58;21;17
Murray Dueck
It's not so easy.

00;58;21;20 - 00;58;26;20
Joshua Hoffert
Everybody and everything will work out.

00;58;26;22 - 00;58;27;25
Murray Dueck
I gotta tell a crazy story.

00;58;27;26 - 00;58;28;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, go for it.

00;58;29;01 - 00;58;51;12
Murray Dueck
Okay. The heart. Right. The stuff in there gets triggered under pressure. Yeah. And it's very drug trigger. Once it gets triggered, eventually. What you want coming out of there is thankfulness. But you got to shovel a bunch of stuff out, right? And see the. It's important to realize in our Western culture we think thankfulness is praise God pats the peanut butter.

00;58;51;12 - 00;59;08;22
Murray Dueck
You know, it's all the same. It's good. But okay, so back in the day, you know, renewal had happened, power gone, fell great things, you know, and so now we're like, well, what's the next to when we should be going to. Right. We're we're like into this. Okay. Spirit of God is moving around. You can go down there, pick it up, bring it back.

00;59;08;23 - 00;59;26;18
Murray Dueck
Right. All right. This is news. Right. And so there is this kind of big revival going on in the States. And so, you know, the senior pastor and the worship guy figures. We'll go down, check it out, we'll spy out the land. Right, right. And it's kind of a Pentecostal lead kind of thing. And you know, I like Pentecostal.

00;59;26;18 - 00;59;46;20
Murray Dueck
I go to a Pentecostal church now, but so they'll go down there and they're there and it's it's in a kind of the we'll just say the warmer parts of the States. I don't want to give away too much here. And the associate pastor, they're they're a bit early and he's got his van, he's wearing a suit. And, you know, he's unpacking all the books and the tapes and the DVDs, and he's like, oh, God bless you, brothers.

00;59;46;20 - 01;00;02;00
Murray Dueck
Where are you from? Hallelujah! Good to see you. God bless you today. You know. Okay. Yeah. So they go and it's kind of a holiness a little bit of repent or and be saved or you're going to burn thing. You're like, oh, do we want to be involved in this as a church? Is this where we should go?

01;00;02;02 - 01;00;22;13
Murray Dueck
God's doing stuff. And so they're they're walking back talking about it. And there is the I'm almost you're sharing this now that you know where this story goes. What am I got myself into? Could you blame the medication? But this is true story. So, so they're walking back and there's a guy packing in a suit, all the books and CDs and everything back in the back.

01;00;22;13 - 01;00;44;02
Murray Dueck
Right. And the automatic sprinklers come on and soak this guy head to toe, and he goes, beep, beep, beep. It's sort of a beep. And like, and, yeah. The thing is, under pressure, what's in that book is going to show up, right? What's in the deep parts of the heart?

01;00;44;04 - 01;00;44;16
Joshua Hoffert
Totally.

01;00;44;16 - 01;00;51;24
Murray Dueck
It's going to show up. And that's the part that needs to learn how to sit in darkness. But be real in there.

01;00;52;00 - 01;00;52;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;00;52;24 - 01;01;01;26
Murray Dueck
And then eventually it learns Thanksgiving. Yeah. So it doesn't do that because it's not in there anymore. The cup needs to be cleaned out, as Jesus said that the first.

01;01;01;26 - 01;01;02;13
Joshua Hoffert
Is.

01;01;02;15 - 01;01;07;14
Murray Dueck
Clean, but it's it's it's a process of transformation.

01;01;07;15 - 01;01;08;01
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;01;08;06 - 01;01;17;00
Murray Dueck
Walking the life journey as Christ heals our souls. And the process of prayer is to aid the healing of the soul.

01;01;17;02 - 01;01;17;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, right.

01;01;17;16 - 01;01;35;12
Murray Dueck
It's right to be reintegrated. So. And if you if you think about that, it makes, you know, Callistus is where, you know, Bishop puts this where he's on a train and this guy comes up to him, says, brother, are you saved? Yeah. He thinks about for a second and goes, I'm in the process of being saved.

01;01;35;14 - 01;01;36;21
Joshua Hoffert
In a way that that's.

01;01;36;21 - 01;01;38;04
Murray Dueck
The process, right?

01;01;38;06 - 01;02;01;07
Joshua Hoffert
The analogy I'm just is, is we sit in, darkness and confusion and and again, the bumpers keep the ball moving down the lane. Yeah, yeah. You sit and we go the, the ball hits the bumper and we go, that's our, we're going, oh I'm on. This is uncomfortable. I'm in life. I'm uncomfortable. I want to solve it.

01;02;01;10 - 01;02;02;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And we're going to.

01;02;02;16 - 01;02;03;10
Murray Dueck
Make that go away.

01;02;03;11 - 01;02;22;00
Joshua Hoffert
We have we have real sex and we go okay, let's let's just calm that down. Right? We don't need to solve this right now. We just sit with the father in darkness and confusion. Where? Confused? We don't know where he is. We don't know where we are. We've lost sight of it. Let's just sit and let's just remember.

01;02;22;03 - 01;02;46;04
Joshua Hoffert
He's good. Thank you. Father, you're so good. You're with us, right? Yeah, yeah. Now, what's happening there? Is that slowly, the pipe that would keep the water going is being re anchored, right? It's being twisted back on. It's being put back together and you're and and all of a sudden, you know, water can start to flow back up that pipe to the higher place.

01;02;46;10 - 01;02;48;18
Murray Dueck
But that's where God wants to take us everywhere.

01;02;48;19 - 01;03;06;21
Joshua Hoffert
That's where God wants to take you, right? And your attention, your affection start to go that way, right? And all of a sudden, oh, things start to flow again. And then but once we get stuck back down in that darkness of confusion and wanting to solve it, we go now, the pipes broken, right? The water is just kind of spewing out everywhere.

01;03;06;24 - 01;03;25;29
Joshua Hoffert
It's dispersed and and our prayer life feels so ineffective and ineffectual, right? Because the water is just kind of hitting everything that can possibly happen. And so what happens? And so in the darkness and confusion is then we go, well, okay, what by my and you know, people do this all the time. I need to fast now right.

01;03;25;29 - 01;03;26;25
Joshua Hoffert
Because my prayer life.

01;03;26;25 - 01;03;27;25
Murray Dueck
Push harder push.

01;03;27;25 - 01;03;28;19
Joshua Hoffert
Harder right.

01;03;28;21 - 01;03;32;12
Murray Dueck
Get prayer I need to breakthrough knowing I need a destiny word I need.

01;03;32;14 - 01;03;40;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, exactly I need to I've got to fix it. Right. I've got to do something to fix it. I need a new worship CD. Right.

01;03;41;00 - 01;03;43;00
Murray Dueck
I'll take another course so my brain.

01;03;43;00 - 01;03;52;27
Joshua Hoffert
Can take another course. Exactly. There's all kinds of ways we try and solve it. And the other is going in it. Stay in it and be thankful that I'm there with you.

01;03;53;04 - 01;03;53;22
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

01;03;53;24 - 01;04;15;07
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And this is Jesus in the garden, right? The great trial where, he's in darkness and confusion and he goes, but now my will, your will be done, right? He turns to thankfulness. He relies on the people around him. His heart yearns for human connection and touch. Right. And he goes, hey, would you stay with me a little while?

01;04;15;07 - 01;04;35;12
Joshua Hoffert
Right, Terry? With me another hour? Yeah. Right. And he stays in that place of connection, and he stays in the place of connection with the father, and. And he goes, I can do this. Because even in darkness and confusion, my friends are with me and my father's with me. Right. And it's it's not a I need to solve it.

01;04;35;12 - 01;04;56;25
Joshua Hoffert
I'm thankful. Right. And actually, in Father Luke's instruction, point under point six, there's one of the, one of the sub points is purify your life and remove that which hides God. The sub point of 0.7. There's only one sub point. A point seven is always keep a heart and mind is a blessed God. Amen. So how do how do we purify our life?

01;04;56;27 - 01;05;17;26
Joshua Hoffert
Well, you don't, he does. You keep the attitude of thanksgiving and he begins to work purity in you. Because purity is not so much a an action as it is an ontological reality of the presence of the spirit. It's like humility isn't something I do. It's a grace I participate in because it's part of his nature.

01;05;17;26 - 01;05;20;05
Murray Dueck
That's a good way, right? Good way to say it.

01;05;20;08 - 01;05;25;03
Joshua Hoffert
Purity is not a thing I do. It's a thing I participate in because it's part of his nature.

01;05;25;05 - 01;05;38;15
Murray Dueck
And you, you know, father Mike would always say to me, the great. Yeah, Grace is is partnership. It's not just something God does. Yeah. He says, if you want a suntan, it's not sunny out. You're not getting a sunset. But if it's sunny out, you don't go outside. You're also not getting a.

01;05;38;20 - 01;05;39;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah that's right. Yeah.

01;05;39;19 - 01;05;45;28
Murray Dueck
So it's it's both right. You need to do your part. Yeah. Sit in it. Let God do his part. Right. Yeah.

01;05;46;02 - 01;05;47;06
Joshua Hoffert
That's right, that's right.

01;05;47;06 - 01;06;13;10
Murray Dueck
So and maybe I'll say one more thing everybody. You know so so keep in mind, you know, you might want to list, you know, if this would be a great time after this, after this episode, everybody to go read the cloud of a knowing it'll make a lot more sense. That's right, that's right. But but keep in mind, you know, the early example of, of coming back from, from Wylam to the Mennonite church and what my insides were doing, freaking out and God reordering, you know, he's all reordering us.

01;06;13;16 - 01;06;37;07
Murray Dueck
Yeah. So and with that, I just wanted to add one little, little example. So when I did God Rock, there was this gal, I mean, again, prophetic guides what I do. And, this girl named Jen was there first time, you know, street kid, you know, anyway, moving farther, defining what that is. And I go, well, you know, I got to and I prayed for about her dad and she laughed and said, oh, you mean Sally?

01;06;37;09 - 01;06;55;19
Murray Dueck
I think all mean because when my dad had a sex change, well, you can just imagine the pain this would have caused her. But she thought it was the funniest thing, right? Because, you know, she's grown up with a belief system that this is normal and therefore you got to laugh it off and right. And the thing that I didn't understand is why?

01;06;55;19 - 01;07;13;26
Murray Dueck
Because you got to say you've got to do the spirit could prophesy, love the presence of God. God did not touch that every time you brought it up. She'd laugh for a full year. And I'm like, why, Lord, do you not work on this in her life? Because obviously there must be a lot of pain there. A year later, she's, you know, the meeting's over.

01;07;13;26 - 01;07;38;16
Murray Dueck
She's in the corner crying like, Jen, what's going on? And she looks at me, says, I've never known a father. I've never known. And, you know, then it was time healing came, right? And finally the Lord beat it clear to me, you know, because of her belief system, because of her upbringing. If I would have touched that wound a year earlier, she would have run back to drugs.

01;07;38;16 - 01;08;00;17
Murray Dueck
She would have run back to the occult. She would have run back. She didn't know me well enough that once I touched it and all that pain came up, you just notice she would've went run from me instead of to me, and I had to wait until she knew me enough. So when. The point is, sometimes when our junk comes up, it's not the fact that we're being punished.

01;08;00;19 - 01;08;14;22
Murray Dueck
It's the fact that God is saying, you know what? You know me well enough now that if I bring healing to this part of your soul, you'll run to me instead of away from me. And it's actually a sign of your graduation, not you getting weaker.

01;08;14;22 - 01;08;15;14
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;08;15;16 - 01;08;41;17
Murray Dueck
Because your inner man, you're more now willing and able to live in your heart. A deep heart, inner man, secret man of the heart, as Peter would say with Christ in the pressure. Until everything's reorganized because you trust him at a deeper level, it feels exactly the opposite. But what's actually happening is you've got far enough along. Now you can permit the Lord to do surgery because you know him.

01;08;41;19 - 01;08;57;04
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And he's like, you're mature enough now I can do this. So don't take these times of darkness as a feeling like you're doing something wrong. Actually, no. You're graduating to a different level of of of connection to God and deeper knowing of yourself.

01;08;57;07 - 01;08;58;10
Joshua Hoffert
And ultimately.

01;08;58;10 - 01;09;02;20
Murray Dueck
Punishment. Ultimately, although it feels like that every time, does it does.

01;09;02;20 - 01;09;32;13
Joshua Hoffert
But the patterns that have produced disintegration in your heart and in your life chaos, broken relationships, yeah. You know, poor relationships, a lack of connection with others, a lack of, a lack of well-being and peace nourished deep within all these things that have produced that these are in these, in this, in this value form and in darkness and confusion.

01;09;32;13 - 01;09;45;00
Joshua Hoffert
These things come to the surface. And he's terraforming again, you know. Yeah. Trees transforming the wasteland of my life. And he's creating within there a beautiful city that he can dwell in.

01;09;45;07 - 01;09;48;03
Murray Dueck
Right. That's right. That's what he's doing.

01;09;48;08 - 01;10;14;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. And and it's. And the thing is said, the things that are coming up have never produced the result that they have that you have predicted they would, they would produce rain or the things that you actually long for in your deep in that deep place where you long for community, you long for loving relationships, you long for a place where I can just be myself and be full of peace.

01;10;14;13 - 01;10;39;17
Joshua Hoffert
The things you actually long for these these days, just never. You've never been able to produce it on your own as much as you tried to predict the eventual outcome. And so it's like, let's try a different way where we're aiming our focus on the father. We've put bumper lanes in the in the bowling alley. Now, every time you roll the ball, you go, oh, that's right, I need to remain here in this darkness and confusion and thankfulness.

01;10;39;19 - 01;10;47;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Oh that's right, I'm. My trust is wavering. I'm starting to fear. Oh that's right. The father's good. I'm going to remind myself of that and be thankful that he's good. Right.

01;10;47;14 - 01;10;56;14
Murray Dueck
I remember David speaking to his heart. Right. What is wrong with you? My soul? Oh, yeah. Right. You know, like, get into the right order here. It's yourself.

01;10;56;14 - 01;10;57;06
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

01;10;57;09 - 01;10;57;25
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

01;10;57;27 - 01;10;59;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, it's going to be okay.

01;10;59;06 - 01;11;00;15
Murray Dueck
So, Lord, Lord.

01;11;00;17 - 01;11;14;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. If you don't have someone else to say, just say trust in me, okay? Yeah. Be thankful this is going to work itself out because I trust the father's good. Am I not have the outcome I want? But it's going to have an outcome that he wants and we're going to be okay in the midst of it.

01;11;14;25 - 01;11;35;05
Murray Dueck
It's an interesting thing. Everybody, when you go through times like this, believe it or not, eventually your soul changes. So, and if you want to take a look at this, quick look at Hebrews 11 and 12. So Hebrews 11, a great many faith. Hebrews 12 was what they had to go through, right? Because it's talking about those guys.

01;11;35;07 - 01;11;59;06
Murray Dueck
And it ends with this verse. Hebrews 12. Therefore, in other words, you get what's going on in Hebrews 1112. Strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. Make level pass. No, no discipline at this time seems pleasant but painful. But later on it produces a harvest of peace and righteousness for those who've been trained by it. So therefore, strengthen your feeble arms in weakness.

01;11;59;06 - 01;12;17;21
Murray Dueck
Make level paths for your feet, so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed. So in other words, what? Do you know what these guys in Hebrews 11 and went through, right? Hebrews 12 starts with, you know, Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, right? And so, believe it or not, it gets to a point.

01;12;17;23 - 01;12;35;17
Murray Dueck
There is a division between your soul and your spirit where this inner rest everything lines up the right way, and you just don't get triggered by the same thing. If you run out of money, you're like, oh, it'll work out, if you get it. You know, if people in church ignore you or something, you're like, no, that's all right.

01;12;35;17 - 01;13;00;29
Murray Dueck
Jesus loves me like you're whatever your triggers are, suddenly you a piece because you've learned to submit them. And Jesus to transform them. And this inner peace, this rest of Christ starts to go there. And eventually it's really weird. It's hard to describe it when you come through these seasons. You come out the other side and suddenly, let's say, favors back, right?

01;13;01;02 - 01;13;13;18
Murray Dueck
And people all of a sudden, like, maybe a year and a half will tell you had no favor. I don't know, I don't want to go into too much detail here, but it's like. And suddenly people want to talk to you again. They want you to play worship again. They want you to speak in their churches again.

01;13;13;20 - 01;13;23;00
Murray Dueck
And you're like, you know what? It's good. But, you know, I just don't care so much now. Yeah, I just I'm okay with just being with Jesus. And but but you'll notice.

01;13;23;03 - 01;13;23;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;13;23;27 - 01;13;42;14
Murray Dueck
You know, having the build your own ministry, having to pump your own tires, what people think about it just isn't really there. And you look at your insides and go, wow, what happened to you? Because your gifts are the same. Your sense of humor is the same. Your personality is the same. That's right. But you've been reordered inside and and.

01;13;42;16 - 01;13;42;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;13;43;00 - 01;13;49;06
Murray Dueck
That person. That's the person who blessed are they pure in heart. For they shall see God, right?

01;13;49;13 - 01;13;49;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;13;49;27 - 01;14;09;09
Murray Dueck
Right. Right. And so there is this beautiful outcome. But you got to we all have to walk the path. So I just want to say this. The pipe goes somewhere, you know, the water goes somewhere. And this deep internal change, you know, the knowledge of and tree of good and mankind is sick. Jesus said it's not the Pharisees.

01;14;09;09 - 01;14;26;09
Murray Dueck
Why does this guy eat with sinners and tax collectors? This is a legal thing. You shouldn't be doing it. And Jesus goes, go, hey, I didn't come. Yeah, a doctor doesn't come for that. For the, you know, for the healthy comes for the sick. Guys, this is a medical condition. Mankind's artist is sick, and it needs healing. Yeah.

01;14;26;09 - 01;14;33;20
Murray Dueck
And we are we are those people. And, and there is a reorder and a reintegration, and.

01;14;33;25 - 01;14;34;22
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;14;34;24 - 01;14;51;07
Murray Dueck
We, because of the fall, want that knowledge of the tree of good and evil. We want to understand and we want to make it work and in our own will. We're going to do it. Yeah. That's right. And these are let go. And and it's a painful process. And our Western culture was like, I must be doing something wrong.

01;14;51;07 - 01;15;15;14
Murray Dueck
I must be being punished. Maybe I got to work harder. Know that part of you that's the problem, right? Right. That's the part God's trying to actually get to let go and and. You know, the Lord has a, has an a convenient plan of a healing for all or suit or souls that is uniquely tailored. That's right. Each one of us here, like, where do I get the book and what are the steps?

01;15;15;16 - 01;15;19;27
Murray Dueck
You know, that's the problem. You have to just do it in trust.

01;15;20;00 - 01;15;21;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;15;21;15 - 01;15;23;02
Murray Dueck
And let your heart love Christ.

01;15;23;08 - 01;15;24;21
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Yeah.

01;15;24;27 - 01;15;42;27
Murray Dueck
And that's it. But it it ain't so easy as you could tell because the stuff is going to come up. Just like with the story told with Jen. Just like I told you with my performance orientation. Right. And that's okay, because it means we got you can't first you got to see the problem. Yeah. And then you got to hate the problem.

01;15;42;29 - 01;16;05;13
Murray Dueck
And then you got to be willing to do life a different way. And then that has to become a betrayal. Yeah. That transfer formation of the inner man. It takes it takes time. And usually to see that we're doing something in life that's not working. Usually that takes three years to be honest. And then and then they hate it because, you know, you've got I mean, when my I remember as a kid, my mom would say to me, never trust anybody.

01;16;05;13 - 01;16;23;18
Murray Dueck
You know, it's pretty broken family, you know, you believe that that protects you as a kid. Okay. Just watch out, okay. This belief system, as long as I keep everybody at bay. Right. And when I got first hired as a pastor, one of the first jobs I had to do was a Christmas banquet. I had to do the food, the entertainment, rent the building.

01;16;23;25 - 01;16;40;07
Murray Dueck
Right. And I, I wasn't going to ask anybody to help because I got a belief system is like, don't trust anybody. Well, not my my belief system. It used to protect me. Now is my enemy and I'm freaking out and my soul's like, what the hell am I going to do? Like, oh God, I'm going to die, right?

01;16;40;07 - 01;16;51;15
Murray Dueck
Right. It's my belief system. God had to trigger it. I had to feel that way for me to go. I can't live like this anymore.

01;16;51;17 - 01;16;52;09
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;16;52;12 - 01;17;10;22
Murray Dueck
And then God can heal my soul. And he did. You know, when he continues to do so. But the reason was I was mature enough. Now when I was 15, probably I, you know, I probably needed that belief system. It was so ingrained from me upbringing. But I got free of it and that I was a way better pastor.

01;17;10;22 - 01;17;29;27
Murray Dueck
I you can imagine I had a way I could pastor, I could do things and plan things. But you got to understand, we're all being free and that darkness is a gift. It is to show you what's in your heart so you can get rid of it. Yeah. And you have to trust that more than that part of you that's going.

01;17;29;29 - 01;17;54;11
Murray Dueck
I've been abandoned. I know what's going on. I got to say, that's the problem. Right? So and so this inner prayer life, you know, as somebody who who went from midnight, brother, to do the right stuff, check the boxes. Sure to, you know, just move and power. Right. Just moving power. I didn't come with wave in persuasive words.

01;17;54;13 - 01;18;13;16
Murray Dueck
This is in my Bible school. You know your book. You get a verse beside your name. Didn't come with wave and persuasive words, but a demonstration of the Spirit's power. That's it. Like little embarrassing. Now, I got to tell you that that chapter. So you got a boat that, Oh, it's so embarrassing right to now it's like, you know.

01;18;13;19 - 01;18;44;19
Murray Dueck
Just to sit with Jesus, let him show me what's in my heart. Be transformed. We were unveiled. Faces. Behold his glory. And were transformed from glory to glory. That's what it's about. Yeah, and everything else takes care of itself. Presence shows up. But I tell you, I'm a warrior. If I. People are following me, do I really want to be a driven, performance based person building out of my ego?

01;18;44;22 - 01;18;49;26
Murray Dueck
The Beatitudes guys tell us what a heel soul looks like.

01;18;50;04 - 01;18;51;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;18;51;06 - 01;19;15;25
Murray Dueck
Right back to that. So. Right. And that's why they're there and that's why they're a little scary. But because of what we're talking about today, Jesus is saying this is the healing process. This is what a healed soul looks like. Yeah, right. But it's a free soul, right? And I would read Tozer, you know, if you guys for evangelicals read, read Tozer and and and he's quite he says brilliant.

01;19;15;25 - 01;19;20;20
Murray Dueck
You know, he really is. So there you go. So right here we go. He did need a medication and.

01;19;20;24 - 01;19;26;08
Joshua Hoffert
That's that's beautiful Murray thanks so much. I think with that we'll call the episode to a close. I think.

01;19;26;11 - 01;19;26;27
Murray Dueck
We might have got a.

01;19;26;27 - 01;19;38;03
Joshua Hoffert
Couple of sticks and Stephen. Yeah, it's very good. And, everybody, thanks for joining in on the journey. And, Well, until next time, I guess.

01;19;38;05 - 01;19;43;08
Murray Dueck
And thank you guys for for your wisdom and, and putting on with my rant today. I appreciate it.

01;19;43;10 - 01;19;46;28
Joshua Hoffert
All. As always. I love putting up with your around.

01;19;47;00 - 01;19;48;23
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

01;19;48;25 - 01;19;49;26
Joshua Hoffert
Hi, everybody.

01;19;49;28 - 01;20;25;11
Murray Dueck
Bye everyone.