Discovering the value of synchronizing the heart: an interview with Bishop Andrew Miller, Part 1

Join Josh and Murr as they interview the founder of Heartsync Ministries about his journey of counseling, therapy, and encountering God. From the Jesus People Movement to encountering an angel and finding himself working with severe disassociation, Bishop Andrew Miller found himself discovering wholeness and healing all along the way. Join the boys as they talk with Bishop Andrew about his life, story, journey, and the development of Heartsync as a robust approach to healing ministry.

For more about Voices from the Desert, visit our Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/VoicesfromtheDesert

For more about Heartsync, visit: https://heartsynchealing.org/

For more info about how to get a hold of a heartsync counselor, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/inner-healing

Transcript

00;00;17;21 - 00;00;21;16
Father Andrew Miller
Yeah. It was kind of a culture which happens on the street.

00;00;21;20 - 00;00;22;15
Murray Dueck
Oh, absolutely.

00;00;22;15 - 00;00;42;29
Father Andrew Miller
For sure. About it is about you just behave like a Christian. You perform like. And and some of the deepest needs. And then you had a point where you've been at it several years, and then you feel bad if you do have a deep right, like, yeah.

00;00;43;02 - 00;00;44;14
Murray Dueck
We're done, swallow it.

00;00;44;16 - 00;00;56;16
Father Andrew Miller
Whereas I think for most people it takes several years of being grounded in Christ before you have safety for you to start fresh in your heart.

00;00;56;18 - 00;01;08;06
Father Andrew Miller
The dark has the darkness in your heart of the darkness of.

00;01;08;09 - 00;01;11;00
Joshua Hoffert
I love that the joy of the Lord is already here.

00;01;11;02 - 00;01;15;17
Father Andrew Miller
There you guys slay me. I've never. I've never.

00;01;15;19 - 00;01;18;16
Murray Dueck
Heard you.

00;01;18;18 - 00;01;20;28
Murray Dueck
As well. You know.

00;01;21;00 - 00;01;22;25
Joshua Hoffert
We're we're on ducks.

00;01;22;28 - 00;01;24;29
Murray Dueck
A little cheeky.

00;01;25;01 - 00;01;32;28
Joshua Hoffert
Little geeky. So welcome, everybody, to our joy filled time and voices from.

00;01;32;28 - 00;01;43;06
Murray Dueck
The desert desert's desert. 000. Where he.

00;01;43;06 - 00;01;47;12
Joshua Hoffert
Keeps threatening to bring his drum along and,

00;01;47;15 - 00;01;49;13
Murray Dueck
Get the dog to.

00;01;49;15 - 00;01;49;27
Joshua Hoffert
Do it.

00;01;49;28 - 00;01;51;28
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I keep forgetting, but I'm going to do it.

00;01;52;01 - 00;01;52;21
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;01;52;21 - 00;01;55;21
Murray Dueck
So there's you dogs can. Now let me tell you.

00;01;55;23 - 00;02;04;18
Joshua Hoffert
When he had the when the sheepdogs were puppies, he had them in the house and he would do the howl and they would perk up. And you know, watch what he was doing. So, was.

00;02;04;18 - 00;02;06;15
Murray Dueck
Modeling. Yeah. Modeling.

00;02;06;15 - 00;02;29;25
Joshua Hoffert
That's right, that's right. So, you know, and in an update on the Hartford household, we're still watching those Eagles develop. So that's, there's a there's a live stream that Aaron has been tuning into every day. Aaron's my wife and, it's been going for the last month or two, but it's this famous eagle nest and hundreds of thousands of people watch this thing.

00;02;29;27 - 00;02;49;21
Joshua Hoffert
It's been live streaming for, like, the last six years. And it's every season. The Eagles, the mom and dad, the Eagles come back, lay some eggs, and it's the it's just a live stream capturing the nest and the in one of the national parks in California. And people watch the eagles develop and there's a whole storyline around them.

00;02;49;23 - 00;03;06;28
Joshua Hoffert
And so it's on it's on upstairs right now. And so that's an update for everybody wondering if we're still paying attention to the Eagles. We are so you know that Murray, by the way, runs a hobby farm. And so he's practically a farmer.

00;03;07;00 - 00;03;07;22
Murray Dueck
There's.

00;03;07;25 - 00;03;10;22
Joshua Hoffert
There's a lot of poop on his property. I've been there. Yeah.

00;03;10;24 - 00;03;14;28
Murray Dueck
And so that speaks of the invisible. Let me tell you.

00;03;15;01 - 00;03;16;18
Murray Dueck
That's correct, that's right.

00;03;16;20 - 00;03;31;08
Murray Dueck
It's an animal farm sanctuary. So we have an animal farm sanctuary called Eden Sweet Farm Sanctuary, everybody. It has a website. My wife was just doing tours, introducing people to the cows and the peacocks and the and everybody else.

00;03;31;11 - 00;03;33;21
Joshua Hoffert
Occasionally you can hear them in the background.

00;03;33;23 - 00;03;34;09
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;03;34;11 - 00;03;50;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. It's. That's right. And and, we have got a fascinating guest with us today and, so we're going to, we're going to turn and introduce him in just a second. Murray, we started a Patreon, whatever that means. Right. So we should probably we did.

00;03;50;20 - 00;04;07;22
Murray Dueck
And you did all the work, and so. So everybody with Patreon, what we're doing is, you know, we always start this thing a little bit earlier, and we've had a good talk with, Bishop Andrew already. And if you want to hear some of the preamble stuff where it's all the good stuff, that'll be on the Patreon later.

00;04;07;29 - 00;04;22;14
Murray Dueck
So for those that want to support us, it doesn't cost you very much. But, we appreciate your support and, and want to give those who are wanting to see this, podcast develop some extra, extra stuff so you can find us over on our patrons. Yeah.

00;04;22;14 - 00;04;57;18
Joshua Hoffert
Patreon.com slash voices from the desert. And it'll link in the podcast description. So today we have, a man that I discovered inadvertently. I had been following some of his teachings since about 2000, 6 or 7, probably when I read a book by I was participating in a, in a home group where we were covering some of Gary and Kathy Oates, the healing, the healing, paradigm that they were bringing.

00;04;57;20 - 00;05;17;00
Joshua Hoffert
And we had been exploring some sozo stuff back then and different inner healing things. This is with my dad was running the home group and, and my dad had brought the the book that Kathy wrote open the eyes of my. So I think Gary wrote one called Open My Eyes and Kathy wrote one called Open the Eyes of My Heart.

00;05;17;02 - 00;05;46;01
Joshua Hoffert
And so we had gone through the the CDs or DVDs and had attended a conference in California. And I didn't realize until about ten years later when I was reading, I was revisiting that book, and my wife had become involved with a ministry called Heart Sink Ministries. That Father Andrew, now Bishop Andrew, had written the appendix that basically served as the foundation for Gary and Kathy's approach to interviewing.

00;05;46;01 - 00;06;10;28
Joshua Hoffert
I was like, whoa, that, you know, full circle. So, our family has been, heavily influenced by Bishop Andrew's teaching, by just him and his willingness to pour into the people that he's, leading and guiding and the leaders he's developing. And my wife being one in particular. So she's a heart sink, facilitator. She's been through all the training, and.

00;06;11;01 - 00;06;11;24
Murray Dueck
We need to interview.

00;06;11;24 - 00;06;34;15
Joshua Hoffert
Her. I, we need her as well. That's right. And so, you know, she's the one who put the bug in my ear a while back that I. You should reach out to, Father Andrew about interviewing him. And so we've got, Father Andrew because, Bishop is always a father, but he's been a bishop in the Anglican church for the last two years.

00;06;34;15 - 00;06;48;27
Joshua Hoffert
He's down in Florida, Bishop Andrew Miller. So, Bishop Andrew, why don't you tell us maybe just a little bit about yourself and what you guys are presently doing, and then we'll dive in. We'll dive. We'll go to the deep end very quickly.

00;06;48;29 - 00;07;03;27
Father Andrew Miller
Well, if if you were to Google, Anglicanism, you would, like I did one time you find about, at least 75 subgroups in America.

00;07;04;00 - 00;07;04;14
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;07;04;17 - 00;07;53;03
Father Andrew Miller
Now. It perhaps has changed in recent years, but, I'm in one of those subgroups, ordained in the Evangelical Episcopal Church. But I attend an Anglican Church of North America, which is our the cathedral of our diocese. And, I was, very involved. In inner healing, just first out of my own interest, the need, I think, I think many of us are out of our own need and, but really found calling in that and went to graduate school for clinical counseling.

00;07;53;05 - 00;08;19;29
Father Andrew Miller
And, but always incorporated a faith approach into the work that I was doing. And, The, the approach, what I, what I eventually began to notice was pattern. And so I'm a very scientific kind of guy. My undergraduate degrees are in biology and chemistry.

00;08;19;29 - 00;08;20;19
Joshua Hoffert
Okay.

00;08;20;20 - 00;09;03;02
Father Andrew Miller
So math and science education. So I think like a scientist and I sort of approach, what I was, what I was witnessing in the counseling world a lot of the same way. And I started to notice patterns. And those patterns developed into a set of principles that eventually became heart sink ministry. And I didn't, at the time, honestly, I thought, I'm, I'm probably I was quite happy just using them in my private practice and, it actually was Gary Oates you're talking about.

00;09;03;08 - 00;09;05;03
Murray Dueck
Right. Interesting.

00;09;05;05 - 00;09;20;10
Father Andrew Miller
He said to me, he called me one day and he said, Andy, I've just had a meeting with our attorney, and he says he he tells me that you need to get ordained.

00;09;20;13 - 00;09;25;27
Murray Dueck
I said, oh, I said, well, why? He said.

00;09;25;29 - 00;09;51;18
Father Andrew Miller
Well, you know, we're doing these conferences together. And it was they was turning into more conferences and they were all over the place and different states. And he said, if someone were to claim and any kind of a lawsuit, this is what attorneys do. They try to see where there might be liability and, you know.

00;09;51;24 - 00;09;52;11
Murray Dueck
A.

00;09;52;14 - 00;10;16;19
Father Andrew Miller
Claim that you were doing, clinical work outside of your licensure area, which is I'm licensed in Florida. I think at the time I might have been licensed in Alabama as well. But, but if you get ordained, you can do it as a ministry and it resolves that issue.

00;10;16;21 - 00;10;17;28
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. Right.

00;10;18;00 - 00;11;05;01
Father Andrew Miller
And so I, I literally began, I was, very steeped in, Anglicanism. I remember going, I think where I met your dad, Joshua was was at a meeting, I had I had been exposed to the, Charismatic Renewal and, and then went deep into the Anglican church for many numbers of years. And when I emerged and and got invited to present at these conferences, I realized the charismatic movement had morphed.

00;11;05;03 - 00;11;05;20
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Yeah.

00;11;05;21 - 00;11;16;29
Father Andrew Miller
Bye bye bye. My fun tag for all of these people was I called them, crazy River people.

00;11;17;01 - 00;11;20;11
Murray Dueck
That works. Yeah. That would. Yeah.

00;11;20;13 - 00;11;31;23
Father Andrew Miller
But it was that was quite a journey and quite an adjustment. And, But the Lord. Are we allowed to talk about angels on this?

00;11;31;25 - 00;11;33;24
Murray Dueck
Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's,

00;11;33;27 - 00;11;36;09
Murray Dueck
Well, you mentioned Gary. Oh, I'm not mistaken.

00;11;36;11 - 00;11;40;10
Murray Dueck
You guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's the angel guy.

00;11;40;13 - 00;12;13;25
Father Andrew Miller
Yeah. So through my own heart healing, what I noticed is with heart healing, then it removed the impediments or the blocks, in my own heart to encountering God in deeper ways. And so I was. This was way before Gary. Okay. So just, you know, he heard what I was teaching, and then, and he began inviting me to, to do that teaching at conferences.

00;12;13;25 - 00;12;17;27
Father Andrew Miller
In fact, these conferences were called transformation summits. And.

00;12;17;29 - 00;12;18;28
Murray Dueck
Okay. And he said.

00;12;19;05 - 00;12;57;29
Father Andrew Miller
If we're going to advertise transformation summits, I think we need a means of transformation. And so, I would go in and do the, the teaching on the first day and, and then offer prayer appointments during the rest of the conference, while other speakers were doing whatever they were doing. And, but, I seriously was thinking about the earliest reception I got to Hearts and Keeling was, by not the non-denominational church.

00;12;58;01 - 00;13;28;10
Father Andrew Miller
Right. And and I was seriously thinking about, leaving the Anglican church, and I was having an encounter with the Lord one morning, and it went in, like, really deep. It was one of the most vivid. It was a throne room encounter. And I'm watching all of the activity around the throne. The father speaks to this.

00;13;28;12 - 00;13;48;02
Father Andrew Miller
It was, Golden Angel that came down to me and began to speak over me and an angelic tom, which I didn't understand. It, I, I rested in the spirit. But when that happened, then it's were like I could hear it in English.

00;13;48;04 - 00;13;49;22
Murray Dueck
Oh, right.

00;13;49;24 - 00;14;13;22
Father Andrew Miller
So it was a message for Angel. But what this messenger Angel said was, the father wants you to know that he knows you're thinking about leaving the Anglican Church. And he said, don't. He doesn't want you to. In fact, he's going to use you to build bridges between strings.

00;14;13;24 - 00;14;14;21
Murray Dueck
Right. Wow.

00;14;14;21 - 00;14;35;29
Father Andrew Miller
And that that's really what's happening. And I didn't realize it at the time, but, you know, as an Anglican, you're both Protestant. So you've got a foot in the liturgical world and you've got a foot in the Protestant world. And if your charisma broke, Anglican like I am and a a charismatic evangelical Anglican.

00;14;36;01 - 00;14;37;16
Joshua Hoffert
Got like four feet.

00;14;37;19 - 00;14;40;23
Father Andrew Miller
Yeah, yeah. There you go. There you go. I like.

00;14;40;26 - 00;14;41;10
Murray Dueck
It. Yeah.

00;14;41;15 - 00;14;43;24
Father Andrew Miller
Lots of lots of eyes and feet like the.

00;14;43;24 - 00;14;44;15
Murray Dueck
Well well.

00;14;44;22 - 00;14;45;23
Father Andrew Miller
Creatures of.

00;14;45;25 - 00;15;07;28
Joshua Hoffert
Was given that and that you know that with in regards to marine I in the podcast you know I have a I have a couple questions you Stephen stemming from what you've just said but Marie and I both came across the, the contemplative authors specifically for me, the Desert Fathers. You know, for Marie, I think it was probably close to 20 years ago.

00;15;08;01 - 00;15;09;27
Joshua Hoffert
For me it was about 15,

00;15;09;29 - 00;15;10;08
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;15;10;08 - 00;15;40;00
Joshua Hoffert
And and what we found in there was people writing about experiences we had that we were going. That sounds familiar. Right and right. And so. And then and then we were finding people like, say like Basil the Great, right, Cappadocia and Father help to define the language that we use to articulate the Trinity. And and he talks about the transformative journey going from slave to servant to son.

00;15;40;03 - 00;16;06;22
Joshua Hoffert
And he talks about, a lifestyle of encounter. And, and we're going, this guy is a credible theologian. And he's also talking about the kind of experiences that we've seen ourselves having, and we've seen other people having. Yeah. And so when you say, is it okay to talk about this, I, I think if there's ever a place where it's not okay to talk about, we've all of a sudden come out of historic Christianity anyway.

00;16;06;25 - 00;16;22;29
Joshua Hoffert
And and so this is, this has been kind of our introduction to the liturgical, historical side of Christianity as we found, my goodness, there's a wealth of things there that that by we told about these things in our upbringing.

00;16;23;01 - 00;16;23;18
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I would.

00;16;23;19 - 00;16;29;10
Murray Dueck
I would call myself, father under a charismatic docs. So like.

00;16;29;13 - 00;16;30;18
Joshua Hoffert
He's got a lot of feet too.

00;16;30;21 - 00;16;58;27
Murray Dueck
So that's how I, I, I get it, I totally understand, you know, I mean, charismatic, charismatic and experienced. Still very Mennonite in kind of my social approach, maybe, but very orthodox. More in my desert father, in patristic, in my theology, you know. So it's just without I don't understand how you could not be as you walk with Jesus, as as Christianity fills out, you know how the colors all bleed into one a little bit.

00;16;58;27 - 00;17;00;21
Murray Dueck
So it's a beautiful thing.

00;17;00;23 - 00;17;20;08
Joshua Hoffert
So I'm wondering, given given that story that you just shared and, and you had mentioned when we were chatting a few days ago that your, your introduction to the charismatic, to the charismatic movement came in, through the Jesus people, the Jesus people movement.

00;17;20;11 - 00;17;21;11
Murray Dueck


00;17;21;14 - 00;17;50;24
Joshua Hoffert
And, and that but also mentioned that your, your, first priest was a Hungarian Lutheran priest or pastor, as I should say. And so how normative for you and your upbringing would have been visitation by angels in terms of a concept. And was that something that was yeah, we should expect those things, or was that kind of it came out of left field for you?

00;17;50;27 - 00;18;24;19
Father Andrew Miller
Well, I, I grew up in a home that was, I would say, even though it had its dysfunction, like any family. Sure. It was centrally Christian and the church was very much, kind of the, the center point of our social life. And, you know, so we were at some kind of church meeting 4 or 5 times a week, right?

00;18;24;21 - 00;18;45;14
Father Andrew Miller
I can remember as a small child, just completely accepting what I was hearing. And, priest. Priest, Sunday school and then Sunday school and, but a really important thing happened when when I was eight years old and.

00;18;45;17 - 00;18;46;08
Murray Dueck
Okay.

00;18;46;10 - 00;18;55;08
Father Andrew Miller
You had, you would recognize this name, but there was a, priest by the name of Francis McNutt.

00;18;55;10 - 00;18;55;27
Murray Dueck
Oh, yes.

00;18;55;27 - 00;18;57;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. Of course.

00;18;57;18 - 00;19;30;07
Father Andrew Miller
Who at that time was in Columbus, Ohio, and, and, so this pastor, along with a group of individuals from our church, they wanted to start, praying for people for healing. And so they went to his trainings in Columbus, Ohio, and I think, I'm, dear friends with, Francis's wife. You know, Francis is deceased now?

00;19;30;07 - 00;19;35;07
Father Andrew Miller
Yes. Still have, communication with, Judah.

00;19;35;09 - 00;19;36;26
Murray Dueck
Right.

00;19;36;28 - 00;19;59;07
Father Andrew Miller
And one of the things I've shared with her is I. What is so incredible about Francis is that he, you know, he he he never stopped being a Roman priest, even though I think the church didn't acknowledge him when he got married.

00;19;59;10 - 00;20;00;08
Murray Dueck
Sure.

00;20;00;10 - 00;20;06;09
Father Andrew Miller
He he was, an incredible theologian.

00;20;06;11 - 00;20;07;13
Murray Dueck


00;20;07;15 - 00;20;41;08
Father Andrew Miller
And he, he had all of these experiences, desert fox type of experiences and praying for people and healing and, they were friends with and, interestingly, my archbishop knew this man was, a spirit filled Methodist by the name of Tommy Tyson. And he had founded, Aqueduct Conference Center in North Carolina. That's actually where Judith and Francis were married.

00;20;41;16 - 00;20;43;09
Father Andrew Miller
And, okay.

00;20;43;11 - 00;20;44;23
Murray Dueck
Right.

00;20;44;25 - 00;20;52;18
Father Andrew Miller
So all this history, I'm getting an idea of my age, but, anyway.

00;20;52;20 - 00;20;54;05
Joshua Hoffert
Exposed to that, right.

00;20;54;07 - 00;21;21;11
Father Andrew Miller
All of the the, you know, all these, these people, but, no, my mother was. So this is the backdrop. These are the people that had influenced this group. And I think the pastor, he saw the value in it. He saw. And because Francis could lay such a good scriptural basis and in church history, it's still the foundation.

00;21;21;11 - 00;21;55;25
Father Andrew Miller
It's the foundation that I was teaching at the cathedral right now. It's just it's so rich and so good. And, but my mother was pregnant with her 12th child, and she was became deathly ill and, I forget the actual name of the condition, but there was a chance she was going to die. So my father, who was not he was always a Sunday school teacher.

00;21;55;25 - 00;22;14;06
Father Andrew Miller
And, but he he didn't lead a prayer, much like in the home. That was just not something that he learned to do in his family. Right? He was the Lutheran side. My mother was the Church of God soccer.

00;22;14;08 - 00;22;15;23
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;22;15;26 - 00;22;47;10
Father Andrew Miller
And, he he gathered us all together and he told us mom is very ill. And all the kids I remember, we in the living room gathered in a circle, held hands and prayed for her. And I just believed she had a visitation from the Lord. Wow. Got baptized in the Holy Spirit and the Lord told her that, there would be no death here and now.

00;22;47;10 - 00;22;56;05
Father Andrew Miller
My. I think my younger sister now has 4 or 5 of her own children with a dozen grandchildren and.

00;22;56;07 - 00;22;59;00
Murray Dueck
Wow.

00;22;59;02 - 00;23;04;21
Father Andrew Miller
And so later, you know, as you become a teen, I could never, ever forget that.

00;23;04;23 - 00;23;05;12
Murray Dueck
All right.

00;23;05;15 - 00;23;11;29
Father Andrew Miller
You know how the typical story of teens will sort of drift away from their faith?

00;23;12;03 - 00;23;17;12
Murray Dueck
Sure.

00;23;17;14 - 00;23;25;00
Father Andrew Miller
To to basically explore and consider life. And sometimes it's just a license to sin.

00;23;25;03 - 00;23;29;01
Murray Dueck
Yeah. All right, I.

00;23;29;03 - 00;23;31;26
Father Andrew Miller
I just I could never deny that.

00;23;31;29 - 00;23;32;26
Murray Dueck
Right.

00;23;32;28 - 00;23;49;28
Father Andrew Miller
And so it made me hungry and then that at my confirmation, because of that influence I was sharing earlier, he, he, told me, don't be surprised if you receive a prayer language when we lay hands. And.

00;23;50;01 - 00;23;51;02
Murray Dueck


00;23;51;04 - 00;23;55;09
Father Andrew Miller
And I was actually really disappointed that it didn't happen right in that moment.

00;23;55;12 - 00;23;56;22
Murray Dueck


00;23;56;24 - 00;24;02;00
Father Andrew Miller
But I was hot, but I was hungry for it. And and a couple of years later.

00;24;02;02 - 00;24;03;19
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, okay. Right.

00;24;03;19 - 00;24;33;19
Father Andrew Miller
So so that was kind of the and of course the Jesus movement was going on. Then the early days of it and, I don't know if, either of you lived through those days, but it really was quite an amazing outpouring of the Holy Spirit that I think touched every segment of the church.

00;24;33;20 - 00;24;34;07
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Wow.

00;24;34;13 - 00;24;53;00
Father Andrew Miller
But people were coming in then who were totally agnostic or, I mean, the hippie, the hippie movement, the Jesus movement. Was quite amazing. We used to have these big Jesus festivals.

00;24;53;03 - 00;24;53;17
Murray Dueck
Wow.

00;24;53;24 - 00;25;01;28
Father Andrew Miller
Where you go and listen to Christian rock bands for, you know, 3 or 4 days, I mean, thousands and thousands of people.

00;25;01;28 - 00;25;02;28
Joshua Hoffert
All of this amazing.

00;25;02;28 - 00;25;05;12
Father Andrew Miller
Together. It was, wow, I was in I'm.

00;25;05;12 - 00;25;07;27
Joshua Hoffert
In 81. I was born in 81, so I can't yeah.

00;25;07;27 - 00;25;08;10
Murray Dueck
You're a little.

00;25;08;10 - 00;25;09;07
Father Andrew Miller
Too late for it.

00;25;09;14 - 00;25;20;18
Joshua Hoffert
I've studied it though. I actually have a couple books on the bookshelf that that it's I mean, the whole thing is just fascinating to me. And, Yeah.

00;25;20;20 - 00;25;29;15
Father Andrew Miller
And I know so many leaders. I know so many leaders, even, you know, such as myself, who who were touched by that.

00;25;29;17 - 00;25;29;24
Murray Dueck
Right.

00;25;29;25 - 00;25;33;02
Father Andrew Miller
Whether regardless of what stream we were in, it.

00;25;33;02 - 00;25;33;22
Joshua Hoffert
Had.

00;25;33;25 - 00;25;36;28
Father Andrew Miller
Just massive influence in the church.

00;25;37;00 - 00;25;38;00
Joshua Hoffert
Right, right.

00;25;38;00 - 00;25;39;04
Murray Dueck
So amazing.

00;25;39;07 - 00;25;41;28
Joshua Hoffert
How old were you when you were confirmed?

00;25;42;00 - 00;25;43;06
Father Andrew Miller
13.

00;25;43;08 - 00;25;45;07
Joshua Hoffert
Okay.

00;25;45;09 - 00;25;58;10
Father Andrew Miller
And I don't ever remember not believing, but I do remember, like, really taking it seriously that I was affirming this is my faith, confirming this is my faith.

00;25;58;13 - 00;25;59;07
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;25;59;10 - 00;26;04;03
Father Andrew Miller
And, you know, making a public profession.

00;26;04;06 - 00;26;29;26
Joshua Hoffert
Right of my faith. So where what came first then with, you know, in the trajectory of at that point, Andrew Miller, what came first? Was it the was it the pursuit of the counseling world, or was it the was it the priesthood? Was it, you know, Deacon ized where like, what was the trajectory there for you?

00;26;29;28 - 00;26;44;05
Father Andrew Miller
Well, I was I was like a lot of kids in those days. You have to remember, you know. So so I'm, I'm in the Lutheran church, but I'm sneaking off to the camp meetings and,

00;26;44;08 - 00;26;46;28
Joshua Hoffert
Cover of night, you know, the dream is basically.

00;26;46;28 - 00;26;50;11
Murray Dueck
Right on the cover of the. Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly.

00;26;50;13 - 00;26;54;03
Father Andrew Miller
I never made that analogy before, but I'll. I'll use that.

00;26;54;03 - 00;26;58;07
Murray Dueck
So,

00;26;58;09 - 00;27;09;15
Father Andrew Miller
And, we were being, you know, what we were hearing at the camp meetings and, and the Jesus movement aspect of it is Jesus is coming back soon.

00;27;09;18 - 00;27;10;22
Murray Dueck
Right? Yes.

00;27;10;22 - 00;27;33;29
Father Andrew Miller
And it seemed that way. I mean, the the economy was in horrible shape. We had people miraculously coming to the Lord at, you know, now with study and real life, I mean, people all through church history. Sure. Many, many times have thought they were in the end times.

00;27;33;29 - 00;27;34;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's true.

00;27;34;26 - 00;27;36;02
Murray Dueck
The last generation.

00;27;36;02 - 00;27;43;07
Father Andrew Miller
Yes. Yeah, yeah. And, I've, I've learned whatever you do, don't try to put a date on anything or.

00;27;43;09 - 00;27;46;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Jesus should explain when he is coming back soon that.

00;27;46;19 - 00;27;51;08
Murray Dueck
It doesn't work the same way. Yeah. Well, you've heard thousand years.

00;27;51;10 - 00;28;17;24
Father Andrew Miller
You've heard that story, right? The guy that says to the Lord, Lord, is it true to that? To you a day is as a thousand years. And the Lord said, yes, my son, that's that's true. And he said, well, then, then it would be true that a dollar would be, same as $1 million a year. And the Lord said, yes, my son, that's true.

00;28;17;24 - 00;28;23;29
Father Andrew Miller
And he said, well, well, Lord, could I have $1 million? And the Lord said, in a minute.

00;28;24;01 - 00;28;35;04
Murray Dueck
Yeah. That's right. Yeah, that's a good yeah, yeah. There you go. Yeah. There you go. That's funny. Thank you. Lord. Hallelujah.

00;28;35;07 - 00;28;35;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So you're.

00;28;35;23 - 00;28;37;08
Murray Dueck
Speaking to the here's.

00;28;37;11 - 00;28;43;21
Joshua Hoffert
You're sneaking off to the camp meetings, and you're you're hearing something and catching wind of something, and.

00;28;43;28 - 00;29;00;06
Murray Dueck
Well, let me ask you a question. Yeah, go for it. Oh, mine. You know, it's so funny when I hear people stories, you know, I have this little pattern or grid in my mind of, impactful event like that with your mom getting healed. What an impactful event, right. And and it creates a spiritual principle, like God does this today.

00;29;00;06 - 00;29;17;09
Murray Dueck
He's real. We encounter him, which which really creates a life, which creates a core value. You know, I want more of this, and it shapes a life goal. You know, it starts to move you. And and did you see that? You can see that with you. But that that happened in your whole family, like the other 11 kids did, did that.

00;29;17;09 - 00;29;18;29
Murray Dueck
And you pack them like that too?

00;29;19;01 - 00;29;48;01
Father Andrew Miller
Almost all. And that's what was so, impactful about those days. Yeah. Is, you know, we all had spiritual foundation and good theology. We all went through the catechism. But it everybody came into the, the, the church of the day kind of blasted in the doona boasts of the Holy Spirit.

00;29;48;08 - 00;29;48;20
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;29;48;21 - 00;30;10;03
Father Andrew Miller
And in completely different ways. That's that's what's so remarkable about it, you know, so, you know, I had a brother that was a Lutheran pastor, my, another brother who was a Mennonite pastor, and really people and just about every segment eventually wound up in every stream imaginable. And and.

00;30;10;06 - 00;30;11;15
Joshua Hoffert
That's fascinating.

00;30;11;18 - 00;30;13;19
Murray Dueck
It is. There's some interesting.

00;30;13;21 - 00;30;15;28
Father Andrew Miller
Yeah.

00;30;16;01 - 00;30;16;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;30;16;16 - 00;30;40;09
Father Andrew Miller
So I always had a love for that and appreciation for the historical church and, and really could see that it was kind of like, you know, people talk about politics this way, like this. I didn't leave this party. This party left me.

00;30;40;12 - 00;30;41;18
Murray Dueck


00;30;41;20 - 00;31;00;17
Father Andrew Miller
Right. It was kind of like, you know, the, the whole charismatic side of things. They didn't really leave the church. It's like there were streams of the church that left them.

00;31;00;20 - 00;31;01;09
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;31;01;11 - 00;31;03;03
Murray Dueck
Beautiful way to put that.

00;31;03;05 - 00;31;33;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. That's true. Yeah. Well, that's where we, you know, we see our, you know, looking at, oh my goodness, these guys are talking like the kind of things that we've experienced. But we don't hear other people talking about work. One of the things that we like to do, we like to, you know, make light of in that sense as our, as we mentioned earlier, when we were chatting our, our Orthodox priest friend, father Mike says the Orthodox Church and the charismatic church share the same back alley.

00;31;33;05 - 00;31;35;26
Murray Dueck
Yeah, they're on different streets, but they share about the.

00;31;35;29 - 00;31;38;24
Joshua Hoffert
Different streets, but they share the back alley.

00;31;38;27 - 00;31;39;11
Murray Dueck
Not so much.

00;31;39;12 - 00;31;49;05
Murray Dueck
Father Mike, that said, or I think it could have been that Mike Stewart, my Anglican priest friend, said that that religion isn't the worship of the ashes, it's the preservation of fire.

00;31;49;11 - 00;31;50;02
Joshua Hoffert
Oh that's good.

00;31;50;02 - 00;32;00;15
Murray Dueck
And I I've always appreciated that more and more when you look at it that way. Right. So got some fire here. It's quite well and good journey. I this is quite interesting.

00;32;00;17 - 00;32;41;15
Joshua Hoffert
With a historic church I was struck by it was probably about 4 or 5 years ago. I really started studying the, the early councils and the early creeds that developed and, and how they got there and was, you know, when you get to, you know, Pope Leo the Great, right? And he's writing about the hydrostatic union and kind of putting the best language around it in the the tome of Leo, which I think is also like, I it's funny to call it a tome because it's like, you know, six pages and, it doesn't seem like much of a tome of it's only six pages.

00;32;41;22 - 00;33;00;27
Joshua Hoffert
But when he was writing about the hypersonic union and codifying what everybody had said before that I, I was struck by how if this is true and, and and we see in Jesus the perfect picture of God and human, united.

00;33;00;29 - 00;33;02;02
Murray Dueck


00;33;02;04 - 00;33;25;20
Joshua Hoffert
You know, distinct but united. And and Jesus had to assume all that it means to be human, to redeem all that it means to be human. If this is true, then inner healing is like the core of what it means to be saved. Being healed is the I mean, if the Hippocratic Union is true, you can't deny the healing journey at all.

00;33;25;20 - 00;33;27;23
Joshua Hoffert
It has to be part of it.

00;33;27;25 - 00;34;01;21
Murray Dueck
And, you know, I think I think, you know, I we quoted all the time, but, Bishop erroneous. I believe it was a bishop, you know, 8115 apostle of, you know, disciple of John used to say the glory of God is man fully alive. And I just. And that would lead me to a very good question. So, so with this encounter as a kid sneaking off to Jesus people stuff become, you know, studying science because you mentioned that was your degree, early on your undergrad.

00;34;01;23 - 00;34;13;13
Murray Dueck
Because that's charismatics when you go into the charismatic movement for men and a brother, for example. Right. Your belief in your head is, well, all we need is a touch of the Holy Spirit, and everybody's going to be better, and that'll be it.

00;34;13;15 - 00;34;18;26
Father Andrew Miller
Right? Right. And that's that's it. And and Jesus is coming back soon anyway.

00;34;18;26 - 00;34;20;05
Murray Dueck
So yeah. Right.

00;34;20;06 - 00;34;23;11
Murray Dueck
So why do you need each other? You just gotta be passionate.

00;34;23;13 - 00;34;32;11
Father Andrew Miller
Push that. That was the first, delayed development. And we saw it our culture of young people.

00;34;32;11 - 00;34;33;07
Joshua Hoffert
Because.

00;34;33;09 - 00;34;42;02
Father Andrew Miller
We all sat back kind of waiting. And then as time went on, it was like, well, maybe we better prepare to do something in life. No.

00;34;42;04 - 00;34;43;13
Murray Dueck
No. Yeah.

00;34;43;16 - 00;35;24;11
Father Andrew Miller
Prepare for, yeah, yeah. But anyways, I was in this group, And I'm so grateful for this. I. And this is where, my ministry training began. I was in, a training program with a group of men. My pastor was the, leader of this group, but there were other men who came in, men such as Derek Prince, and there were, Don Basham.

00;35;24;13 - 00;35;52;02
Father Andrew Miller
There there were guys from what were known as the Shepherding Movement, even though the group I was with in college didn't really, take on that identification. It still was amazing training. Like like, I can remember sitting in these meetings, I was a worship leader, and, you know, inside lead worship, which meant you get to sit on the front row at least.

00;35;52;02 - 00;35;52;10
Father Andrew Miller
Right?

00;35;52;18 - 00;35;53;26
Murray Dueck
Right in this.

00;35;53;26 - 00;36;41;27
Father Andrew Miller
Church. And I'm watching Derek Prince pray for people and just miracle after miracle. And then and then he had us jump in and, you know, you do it right. It was wonderful training. Wonderful, exegetical. Teaching of, really over time, pretty much all of Scripture. But there was this point where in worship and I was in my early 20s, probably about 24, I started having, repressed emotion.

00;36;42;00 - 00;36;46;23
Father Andrew Miller
And it was interesting. If I start to leak out during worship.

00;36;46;25 - 00;36;49;22
Joshua Hoffert
That is really interesting.

00;36;49;24 - 00;37;10;09
Father Andrew Miller
And I we understand this now from from brain science and how the heart works, that we're we're actually accessing the right brain. So in worship, in tunes, it's a right turns on relational circuits on the right brain. So God's kind of Jehovah sneaky, sneaky.

00;37;10;14 - 00;37;12;00
Murray Dueck
Past, you know, that term doo.

00;37;12;00 - 00;37;12;23
Murray Dueck
Doo, you know?

00;37;12;26 - 00;37;17;05
Father Andrew Miller
Yeah, yeah. So, all of my natural defense mechanisms, right?

00;37;17;05 - 00;37;17;28
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;37;18;00 - 00;37;36;15
Father Andrew Miller
And I'll never forget it. It was visible enough that, the assistant pastor came to me one day and said, Andy, you have you have to stop this. Oh, that was illusion. You just, you know, just shut it off. You.

00;37;36;18 - 00;37;37;13
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;37;37;16 - 00;38;03;05
Father Andrew Miller
And I said to him, I think he was maybe even a year. He wasn't much older than me. But I said, well, who do you think you are to tell me what the Holy Spirit's doing in my heart and life? Right? I mean, I didn't know where it was coming from, but I also and it was interesting, leaving that day, the Lord spoke to.

00;38;03;05 - 00;38;04;09
Murray Dueck
Me.

00;38;04;12 - 00;38;09;19
Father Andrew Miller
And, it was a still small voice, but I like to say it was a loud, still, small voice.

00;38;09;25 - 00;38;11;11
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;38;11;14 - 00;38;26;22
Father Andrew Miller
This was in 19, probably 1984. And what he said was, if you're ever going to heal, you need to leave this place.

00;38;26;24 - 00;38;29;22
Murray Dueck
Wow, wow, wow.

00;38;29;25 - 00;38;31;09
Father Andrew Miller
That was a tough pill to.

00;38;31;09 - 00;38;33;03
Joshua Hoffert
Swallow, right?

00;38;33;06 - 00;38;34;05
Murray Dueck
Wow.

00;38;34;07 - 00;38;52;07
Murray Dueck
Now, do you you've already come to the conclusion, then, that this heart leaking was an area that needed healing, but it was also the Holy Spirit touching you. And you put that together and then realized the culture, the Christian culture there would not permit it. You kind of all of that emerged right there.

00;38;52;09 - 00;39;16;16
Father Andrew Miller
Yeah. It was kind of a culture which happens in a lot of strains. Oh, absolutely. For sure. It's about it is about you just behave like a Christian. You perform like a Christian and and some of the deepest needs. And, and then you had a point where you've been at it several years and then you feel bad if you do have a deep need, right?

00;39;16;16 - 00;39;19;05
Murray Dueck
Like, yeah, we're not swallow it.

00;39;19;07 - 00;39;47;22
Father Andrew Miller
Whereas I think for most people it takes, several years of being grounded in Christ before you have the safety to begin to explore you, the dark in your heart. Sure. Some for some people, a lot longer than that. But anyways, that's that at that point, moved to Tallahassee to continue my education. And that's when I found a spirit filled Episcopal church.

00;39;47;28 - 00;39;48;15
Murray Dueck
Okay.

00;39;48;15 - 00;39;50;02
Murray Dueck
Interesting.

00;39;50;05 - 00;40;10;21
Father Andrew Miller
And and felt right at home because that was my whole young life up through 17, 18 and jumped right in. Only now there were inner healing teams. So this is how I described it. I could I could cry through communion and nobody tried to fix me.

00;40;10;23 - 00;40;11;18
Murray Dueck
Oh, beautiful.

00;40;11;18 - 00;40;14;14
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, right. Yeah.

00;40;14;17 - 00;40;20;29
Father Andrew Miller
Where whereas I think it was threatening to some people in others dreams.

00;40;21;02 - 00;40;22;13
Murray Dueck
Right.

00;40;22;16 - 00;40;24;07
Murray Dueck
Interesting.

00;40;24;10 - 00;40;26;23
Father Andrew Miller
Yeah. This is kind of what you were saying.

00;40;26;25 - 00;40;27;16
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;40;27;16 - 00;40;42;18
Father Andrew Miller
Is, is there was this allowance and, and an embracing of that movement and the Holy Spirit, unlike what was happening and a lot of the nondenominational things.

00;40;42;21 - 00;41;03;00
Murray Dueck
Right. Because one of the, one of the things that I even now that I mean, the people I work with, coming out of the charismatic it's funny how we pick up a culture. And one of the things that that we would pick up from charismatic culture, including me, is that from the stage, you would have your pastor leader tell all the glory stories, right?

00;41;03;02 - 00;41;20;12
Murray Dueck
But they don't talk about their brokenness or their weakness. So then everyone in the church without notice, knowing it starts a model that I can tell you when God's touched me and he's done stuff, but I can tell you about my my pain or my because that's weakness. That's so it creates a culture where people go, Praise God, Hallelujah about what's really going on.

00;41;20;12 - 00;41;33;20
Murray Dueck
No one wants to talk about it. And and to have a church culture where already at that age you were experiencing the marrying of that. I mean, it's it is what the church needs today, at least in cultures I a do. I said.

00;41;33;22 - 00;41;34;28
Joshua Hoffert
That's beautiful.

00;41;35;01 - 00;41;37;10
Murray Dueck
Yay!

00;41;37;13 - 00;41;49;29
Joshua Hoffert
Well, it reminds me we've we've talked about marriage and I've talked about this in previous episodes. Marie, you'll recognize that it reminds me of Bishop Pomona's Anthony's. Anthony's disciple.

00;41;49;29 - 00;41;50;12
Murray Dueck
Yes.

00;41;50;12 - 00;41;59;17
Joshua Hoffert
Where he talks about how all of the great men of God were called into the wilderness to be healed. And then when they were sent back, they.

00;41;59;17 - 00;42;00;25
Murray Dueck
There he is.

00;42;00;27 - 00;42;02;10
Joshua Hoffert
There it is right there. The letters.

00;42;02;10 - 00;42;03;20
Murray Dueck
I don't have it sitting there.

00;42;03;21 - 00;42;09;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, it's in letter 12. He talks about how they all went to the wilderness to be healed.

00;42;09;07 - 00;42;11;03
Father Andrew Miller
I've got similar stuff.

00;42;11;05 - 00;42;13;02
Murray Dueck
Oh, yeah. Oh, there we go.

00;42;13;05 - 00;42;15;17
Murray Dueck
We're in cahoots. Okay. We're in cahoots.

00;42;15;20 - 00;42;19;22
Father Andrew Miller
Oh, we promise as listeners, we didn't compare those pictures.

00;42;19;22 - 00;42;20;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, we did.

00;42;20;07 - 00;42;23;05
Murray Dueck
Not at all. That that he.

00;42;23;08 - 00;42;46;07
Joshua Hoffert
He brings them into the wilderness to heal them and sends them back to bring healing to others. But the mark of someone who's been healed in the wilderness is that they don't want to go back because they want to be with the father, but they'll go back out of obedience and monasteries. And and so I'm just thinking of that, how he characterizes that journey, that the Lord says, you've got to leave here.

00;42;46;07 - 00;43;01;23
Joshua Hoffert
You have to go into your wilderness to find a place where you can express yourself and you can find healing because, you know, he he had an intention with you. It's not like, the the the throne room experience with the angel. Know it happened to you. And I'm glad.

00;43;01;28 - 00;43;03;17
Murray Dueck
That that was.

00;43;03;20 - 00;43;08;00
Father Andrew Miller
You know, what I'm thinking is there are deserts of many colors.

00;43;08;01 - 00;43;09;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

00;43;09;23 - 00;43;10;04
Murray Dueck
Yes.

00;43;10;06 - 00;43;16;13
Father Andrew Miller
And believe me, the desert experience came way before that encounter.

00;43;16;13 - 00;43;16;24
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;43;16;25 - 00;43;19;16
Murray Dueck
That's right. Oh, that would be nice to hear to at some point.

00;43;19;18 - 00;43;19;29
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;43;19;29 - 00;43;26;28
Murray Dueck
He's desert themed. You know, you make a statement in the desert. I can't live like this anymore. And then you get your encounter.

00;43;27;00 - 00;43;28;05
Murray Dueck
Yeah, but hitting.

00;43;28;05 - 00;43;36;02
Murray Dueck
Fighting that border is not so easy. Yeah, yeah. That's right. I call that dying on the installment program.

00;43;36;04 - 00;43;41;18
Murray Dueck
Oh. Yeah.

00;43;41;24 - 00;43;55;18
Joshua Hoffert
So that's a that's really the season where you're being marked and, and discovering these kind of these, these, as Murray had talked about, impactful event that starts to develop principles. That's what it sounds like anyway.

00;43;55;21 - 00;44;43;24
Father Andrew Miller
Yeah. It's it's kind of interesting. You, you we were moving in the gift, you know, developing theologically. But there were some gaps. You know, there were for me personally. Sure. There was the sort of lack of emotional intelligence that was needed to really work through tough relational situations. Whether in relationship, in marriage, in the church. Just because just because I was in a family that didn't excel at that.

00;44;43;27 - 00;44;44;08
Murray Dueck
Right.

00;44;44;08 - 00;45;13;19
Father Andrew Miller
Like, right. Like I didn't learn how to do that. And then I also didn't understand that some of that emotion, the pain that was leaking out of my from my inner man, my, the deep recesses of my inner being, that there were some things that had happened in my childhood that were extremely painful and that I had buried.

00;45;13;19 - 00;45;18;29
Father Andrew Miller
And I am repressed and,

00;45;19;02 - 00;45;19;19
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;45;19;19 - 00;45;50;24
Father Andrew Miller
You know, so I was finishing my education and, working a couple different jobs. A turning point, though, was, you know, I had this incredible science background, and I was doing a what was known as the program and Medical Sciences. Oh. And literally was doing as a senior, you could do your, basically a pretty much the better part of your first year of medical school.

00;45;51;00 - 00;45;51;28
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. Right.

00;45;51;28 - 00;45;58;10
Father Andrew Miller
So I'm doing all these courses, but as electives, I'm taking counseling courses.

00;45;58;12 - 00;45;59;08
Murray Dueck
Oh, isn't that interesting?

00;45;59;09 - 00;46;16;20
Father Andrew Miller
Had I done this training and, crisis counseling training and, you know, my intent was to be a doctor, but my heart was like, okay, God, that was Jehovah sneaky again.

00;46;16;24 - 00;46;18;23
Murray Dueck
Okay. That guy, in fact, I.

00;46;18;25 - 00;46;44;09
Father Andrew Miller
I said to him, Lord, when I prayed about this, you told me to go. And he said, yes. And I said, well, why would you give me the go ahead to pursue medical school if you were going to change direction? And he said to me, he used the law of physics. He said, well, it's much easier to redirect an object in motion.

00;46;44;11 - 00;46;48;22
Father Andrew Miller
And, you know, that's, it's a spiritual principle.

00;46;48;24 - 00;46;49;14
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;46;49;16 - 00;46;59;25
Father Andrew Miller
Like, we don't just sit around and wait for God to speak. We do what we know to do, and then he he'll redirect us. And then he said, oh, yeah.

00;46;59;27 - 00;47;01;20
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, he.

00;47;01;20 - 00;47;27;19
Father Andrew Miller
Also added, he also added, you would not have left your home for a less noble reason. That was true. That was true. So anyways, he redirected me and I ended up, but in in the in between then I'm learning all this vocabulary. I'm connecting with the hearts of other people where I'm doing, inner healing ministry at church.

00;47;27;22 - 00;47;29;07
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;47;29;09 - 00;47;39;20
Father Andrew Miller
Was on, part time staff there, and all the sudden I, this pain starts coming up again, you know?

00;47;39;23 - 00;47;40;12
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;47;40;12 - 00;47;43;12
Father Andrew Miller
And, you know, what do we do when we're in pain, guys?

00;47;43;12 - 00;47;46;19
Joshua Hoffert
We you we we distract.

00;47;46;22 - 00;47;47;20
Murray Dueck
We would work harder.

00;47;47;25 - 00;47;49;07
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;47;49;09 - 00;47;50;07
Joshua Hoffert
Play games.

00;47;50;09 - 00;47;51;24
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;47;52;00 - 00;47;56;14
Father Andrew Miller
Well, as an Anglican, you have you you drink, you have.

00;47;56;16 - 00;48;02;20
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, yeah. There you go. Yeah. We find there we find those avoiding.

00;48;02;20 - 00;48;04;21
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Yes. But you.

00;48;04;23 - 00;48;06;06
Father Andrew Miller
Well, you medicate the pain.

00;48;06;08 - 00;48;08;21
Murray Dueck
How is that you do that. Yeah.

00;48;08;21 - 00;48;10;24
Father Andrew Miller
You can use religion to medicate pain.

00;48;11;00 - 00;48;12;04
Murray Dueck
That's right. Yes.

00;48;12;04 - 00;48;14;15
Father Andrew Miller
You can use it to kind of things.

00;48;14;17 - 00;48;15;08
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;48;15;11 - 00;48;28;04
Father Andrew Miller
Exactly. Right. So, anyways, I, I tell the story that I was having just one rum and coke every night because I'm working with people's pain, and of course, it's pressing into my own.

00;48;28;06 - 00;48;28;10
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;48;28;11 - 00;48;32;10
Father Andrew Miller
And this is, this is subconscious. I don't realize I'm doing this.

00;48;32;10 - 00;48;34;02
Murray Dueck
Sure. Yes.

00;48;34;04 - 00;48;49;19
Father Andrew Miller
You know, I was dealing with an emotionally, emotionally painful situation. So I say, well, I would I would just have one rum and coke at night, but it was one of those stadium sized cups.

00;48;49;21 - 00;48;57;24
Murray Dueck
7-Eleven is Meg mega jug big, you know, so, yeah.

00;48;57;26 - 00;49;10;06
Father Andrew Miller
And and so one morning and my prayer time, the the I mean, what's funny to me about this, I tell people I'm not Baptist, I'm Anglicans. So there was no prohibition.

00;49;10;09 - 00;49;10;21
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Right.

00;49;10;21 - 00;49;11;03
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;49;11;08 - 00;49;20;08
Father Andrew Miller
You know, but the Lord said to me, well, Andrew, I want you to quit drinking.

00;49;20;10 - 00;49;21;24
Murray Dueck


00;49;21;26 - 00;49;32;26
Father Andrew Miller
And you know what? I'm sharing this publicly. I say, my response was, Satan, I rebuke you.

00;49;32;29 - 00;49;36;00
Murray Dueck
Yeah. That's right.

00;49;36;02 - 00;49;50;09
Father Andrew Miller
No. The truth was, I was shocked. I mean, because it was such a clear request. And then he said he then he said to me, I want you to feel the pain.

00;49;50;12 - 00;49;52;00
Murray Dueck
See, there's the big kicker right there.

00;49;52;00 - 00;49;53;09
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, yeah?

00;49;53;09 - 00;49;56;18
Father Andrew Miller
Yeah. Share in the sufferings of Christ.

00;49;56;21 - 00;50;06;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Did you that you connected before that you were you were drinking to, distance yourself from the pain and you already connected that or was that kind of.

00;50;06;14 - 00;50;07;17
Murray Dueck
I think yes.

00;50;07;20 - 00;50;14;10
Father Andrew Miller
I think I knew that I was managing, trying to manage my anger. Right, because of other things going on.

00;50;14;12 - 00;50;15;00
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;50;15;06 - 00;50;18;26
Father Andrew Miller
But I didn't know that I was avoiding the main pain.

00;50;18;26 - 00;50;19;18
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;50;19;20 - 00;50;31;17
Murray Dueck
I mean, that such a huge lifestyle change from trying to get above it to to embracing it and letting it go deeper. Wow. And how old were you at that time? Father Andrew?

00;50;31;19 - 00;50;36;10
Father Andrew Miller
Well, probably by that time I was 30. Wow.

00;50;36;12 - 00;50;47;15
Murray Dueck
Or 30. Another impactful event that that shapes spiritual principles and core values. Oh my goodness. Like wow. I can see why you said get behind me Satan very clearly.

00;50;47;17 - 00;50;49;29
Murray Dueck
Why? Well, reminds.

00;50;49;29 - 00;50;50;17
Murray Dueck
Me of an old man.

00;50;50;17 - 00;50;56;25
Father Andrew Miller
And here's the thing though. I quit drinking and three days later I had a flashback.

00;50;56;27 - 00;50;58;26
Murray Dueck
Oh, about.

00;50;58;26 - 00;51;10;19
Father Andrew Miller
How I'd been molested as a little boy. Wow. That was it. Made a lot of sense to me. Was kind of like, yeah. Oh, you know, like.

00;51;10;19 - 00;51;11;00
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;51;11;02 - 00;51;14;25
Father Andrew Miller
But it was excruciatingly painful.

00;51;14;25 - 00;51;15;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Of course.

00;51;15;21 - 00;51;26;25
Father Andrew Miller
You know, in the cartoons where you get somebody. Sam hits the mule over the head with a two by four, right? And the the legs of the donkey fly out and the there's stars, you know?

00;51;26;26 - 00;51;27;21
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah.

00;51;27;26 - 00;51;56;02
Father Andrew Miller
That's what it was like. I literally saw stars. It was just a sharp pain in my head with this. Wow. But it was a flashback with complete with temperature, color, extreme detail. And there was no denying it and that. But it started the quest. And I realize, you know, this is where kind of the heart sink journey began, right?

00;51;56;02 - 00;52;26;10
Father Andrew Miller
And sync synchronization, sync syncing, or synchronization is just a fancy word for connecting, right? That I had this condition, like many people do. You know, Jesus said, I've come to heal the broken heart. And God's said through the prophets, I'm going to give you an undivided heart, a singleness of heart and mind. So this condition is very clearly laid out in Scripture.

00;52;26;12 - 00;52;32;25
Father Andrew Miller
And but Jesus said, I'm coming to heal that. And he was coming. He was coming to heal it.

00;52;32;27 - 00;52;33;10
Murray Dueck
Right.

00;52;33;12 - 00;52;45;11
Father Andrew Miller
And and so it was this season of I tell people I, I would not take $1 million to go through it again.

00;52;45;13 - 00;52;46;23
Murray Dueck
Right.

00;52;46;25 - 00;52;49;18
Murray Dueck
But you wouldn't want it to be the way you were before either.

00;52;49;21 - 00;52;56;20
Father Andrew Miller
Exactly. I will not take $1 million to not go through it because it was transformative.

00;52;56;23 - 00;53;18;16
Joshua Hoffert
It, you know. Yeah, it struck me, man. It struck me. It struck me a while back the when Jesus describes, in the in the sermon on the Mount, Matthew six, when he's talking about, you know, the Lord's Prayer. And when he talks about the single eye, right. If your eye is single, it'll be full of great light.

00;53;18;19 - 00;53;34;13
Joshua Hoffert
But if your eye is bad or evil, it'll be full of great darkness. The. I remember looking up that word for bad or evil one time, and it's the translation of his head full of pain, hardship, or turmoil.

00;53;34;15 - 00;53;35;01
Murray Dueck
Interesting.

00;53;35;07 - 00;53;56;26
Joshua Hoffert
And if your eye is single or clear and healthy, you know great light. But if your eye is full of pain, hardship, and turmoil, all you're going to see is darkness. So and so, even in his teaching and the way he characterizes it, I was like, oh my goodness is his. The spiritual journey is one of coming back to oneness.

00;53;56;28 - 00;54;16;08
Joshua Hoffert
And it's all the threads, all they're all throughout Scripture, as you said, you know, the prophets predicted it. Jesus said he was going to do it. And then he taught what it looked like. And somehow we've kind of missed. How do you miss that? I don't I don't understand. Well, that's missed it.

00;54;16;10 - 00;54;20;00
Murray Dueck
Oh, wow. We're seeing right past like that.

00;54;20;03 - 00;54;25;12
Father Andrew Miller
Well, necessity is the mother of all the.

00;54;25;15 - 00;54;26;21
Murray Dueck
Yeah, well, you don't.

00;54;26;21 - 00;54;30;13
Father Andrew Miller
Have any other choice, and you really need it. All of a sudden. You don't miss it.

00;54;30;19 - 00;54;32;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. That's right.

00;54;32;02 - 00;54;33;21
Father Andrew Miller
All of a sudden it's there sitting.

00;54;33;21 - 00;54;34;28
Murray Dueck
In front of and.