The heart, it speaks: an interview with Bishop Andrew Miller, Part 2

In continuing the conversation about healing of the heart with Father Andrew Miller of Heartsync Ministries, Father Andrew dives into the four core parts of the heart and the journey of discovery that he went on through counseling, pastoring, and encounter. What do you do when the person who walks into your office is a different person than who you see on a Sunday? And how do you navigate helping them recover? Join Josh and Murr as they dive in with the Bishop and explore healing the depths of the heart.

For more about Heartsync and Father Andrew Miller, visit: https://heartsynchealing.org/

To book a Heartsync consulation, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/inner-healing

For more about Voices from the Desert, visit our Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/VoicesfromtheDesert

Transcript

00;00;17;23 - 00;00;29;22
Andrew Miller
I could see that because I was going to church with many of these people, and I could see that how they presented in church was very different from how they were presented by office.

00;00;29;24 - 00;00;31;16
Andrew Miller
Once the door closed.

00;00;31;18 - 00;00;52;07
Andrew Miller
Like then, then it's like the shift would take place. There would be this emotional video sobbing, sharing their story. Sometimes there would be this part that would move to protect lockdown. I remember the day the first time I really in my mind, that was.

00;00;52;07 - 00;01;07;10
Andrew Miller
An inanimate object. I remember that day, the first time I find that was the any of.

00;01;07;13 - 00;01;22;01
Murray Dueck
I got to tell you a Catholic joke. I don't know why, but it keeps going through my head. I got to tell this jokes. I got to tell you a joke. So I don't know. Oh, this whole time it's going through my head so super quick. There's this Catholic priest. He's on holidays, so he decides to go to a Protestant church.

00;01;22;04 - 00;01;43;09
Murray Dueck
He's sitting in the back and he's like, okay, let's see how these guys do church. So there's worship, there's a music and then announcements. And right when that the pastor is going to start preaching, he goes, everyone, I've got a confession to make. I've spent the best days of my life in the arms of another man's wife. And there's a pregnant pause and he goes, and it was my mother.

00;01;43;14 - 00;02;08;11
Murray Dueck
And the congregation laughs and applause. He goes, wow, he pulled that off. That's quite a bit. I know he continues his holidays and it's time to go back to his own parish. And he's like, I should try that before liturgy. I should try this joke. But I wonder how that would go. So he's in church and and they've gone through, the different parts of the service and, and he says, everyone today I have a confession to make.

00;02;08;13 - 00;02;28;01
Murray Dueck
I spent the best years of my life in the arms of another man's wife. And Mrs. Johnson gasps, and somebody drops a book of Common Prayer, and it's totally shocked. So many girls and I don't remember who she was.

00;02;28;03 - 00;02;49;22
Andrew Miller
Anyway, I don't know why you did my brain intelligence. Okay. Boy, there you go. Well, you've gotten that out of your system. That's the important thing, is yourself. You know, I got some healing. That's me doing that.

00;02;49;23 - 00;02;53;20
Murray Dueck
I got some healing there, so my heart's more in sync.

00;02;53;22 - 00;02;55;25
Andrew Miller
Yes. Yeah.

00;02;55;28 - 00;02;58;22
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. So.

00;02;58;25 - 00;03;04;24
Andrew Miller
I, I love Maria's. I love Maria. We been. What do you drink?

00;03;04;29 - 00;03;06;11
Andrew Miller
You haven't Mountain dew.

00;03;06;14 - 00;03;07;00
Andrew Miller
Oh, no.

00;03;07;00 - 00;03;09;09
Murray Dueck
It's just. But it's flavored bubbly.

00;03;09;09 - 00;03;11;13
Andrew Miller
Or is this. Yes.

00;03;11;15 - 00;03;12;16
Murray Dueck
Could be something in that.

00;03;12;17 - 00;03;14;18
Andrew Miller
Well, you're you're you're.

00;03;14;21 - 00;03;21;11
Joshua Hoffert
Beginning to realize that Maria and I started a podcast so we could just hang out together and talk to people we found interesting.

00;03;21;14 - 00;03;27;21
Andrew Miller
That's. Yeah, pretty much how that works. Yeah, that's.

00;03;27;24 - 00;03;30;05
Joshua Hoffert
Pretty much what it is. You know?

00;03;30;08 - 00;03;30;28
Andrew Miller
Yeah.

00;03;31;01 - 00;03;48;21
Murray Dueck
I was thinking what you were talking about. Drinking that. The 7-Eleven Slurpee of rum and Coke there. There's an old, old man. And I joke that that goes, how many, many nights do you take camping? Two. Because you you take one. He drinks all the beer, you break. Two, he doesn't drink any, oh.

00;03;48;21 - 00;03;56;08
Andrew Miller
That's right. It works for a Baptist. Yeah. That's true, that's right. Anyway, I got that out of my system, so. Good.

00;03;56;10 - 00;03;59;20
Joshua Hoffert
Okay, let's jump right back in, and we'll,

00;03;59;22 - 00;04;01;15
Andrew Miller
I really want to wait wait wait wait wait.

00;04;01;16 - 00;04;03;26
Andrew Miller
What kind of what kind of beer to man. And I.

00;04;03;26 - 00;04;05;00
Andrew Miller
It's like, oh.

00;04;05;00 - 00;04;05;27
Joshua Hoffert
That's a good question.

00;04;05;27 - 00;04;08;14
Murray Dueck
Well, you're not supposed to really know the answer to that.

00;04;08;17 - 00;04;17;16
Andrew Miller
Let's say that out loud. That's a it's a trick question. That's right. That's a trick question. That's a good.

00;04;17;16 - 00;04;18;17
Joshua Hoffert
Answer, Murray.

00;04;18;20 - 00;04;22;06
Andrew Miller
Yeah, it's the I got still got.

00;04;22;06 - 00;04;23;05
Murray Dueck
The culture still in.

00;04;23;05 - 00;04;30;29
Andrew Miller
There. I see I got, I got you dead. It's a, it's. That's the that's the.

00;04;30;29 - 00;04;35;07
Joshua Hoffert
Thing about Anglicans is they're familiar in all the different territories.

00;04;35;10 - 00;04;40;17
Andrew Miller
Yeah. Yeah. That's right. You get the, do a little better than us. Yeah. That's right.

00;04;40;17 - 00;04;49;04
Andrew Miller
Well, you heard the story about the the priest, the Baptist pastor, and, the,

00;04;49;07 - 00;04;51;23
Andrew Miller


00;04;51;26 - 00;04;55;09
Andrew Miller
The rabbi that decide to go fishing.

00;04;55;11 - 00;04;55;29
Murray Dueck
No, I.

00;04;55;29 - 00;04;57;05
Joshua Hoffert
Don't oh, I don't think so.

00;04;57;05 - 00;05;21;24
Andrew Miller
So they're out on the lake, you know, they're on the boat and, real and and the fish. And every once in a while, somebody catch and one and one, one of them says, well, you know, I think it would be good if we really got to know each other and just share something about how about we just share some, some sin in our life?

00;05;21;27 - 00;05;26;23
Murray Dueck
Oh, boy. Can I go deep quickly?

00;05;26;25 - 00;06;06;24
Andrew Miller
So the, you know, the rabbi says, well, I've, I've got to tell you that, I have had this had an affair and with another person's wife and they're, Anglican priest says, well, I, I've got to confess that I just drank way too much. And, they say there's this pause, long pause, and the they look, they both look at the Baptist pastor and they said, well, what's yours?

00;06;06;27 - 00;06;18;08
Andrew Miller
And he says, well, mine's gossip. And I can't wait to get back to sure.

00;06;18;10 - 00;06;23;15
Andrew Miller
Oh. That's funny. Oh, that's brilliant. Oh.

00;06;23;15 - 00;06;45;25
Murray Dueck
I have one more that I think you'll like today. Okay, one more is is there is this, Catholic? Catholic? What would he be? Abbot of the monastery. And he's taken in the new young scribe. The young priest. And they're working on the old manuscripts and and, copying them out into, to to make more, more copies.

00;06;45;27 - 00;07;14;09
Murray Dueck
And one day, the young, the young priest is downstairs in the cold room copying out his manuscript while the where the abbot is up working on the original manuscript. And he hears weeping, and he runs up there, and there's the old abbot crying over the manuscript. He goes, father, father, what's wrong? And the old father looks up and he goes, the word is celebrate.

00;07;14;12 - 00;07;19;18
Andrew Miller
Yeah. Oh.

00;07;19;20 - 00;07;20;19
Joshua Hoffert
That is a good one.

00;07;20;19 - 00;07;27;08
Andrew Miller
We're, Well, I just thought that was pretty funny. His.

00;07;27;11 - 00;07;31;03
Joshua Hoffert
You know, I didn't put joke our in the notes, so.

00;07;31;05 - 00;07;49;23
Andrew Miller
There you go. You can, you can sell. You can sell that on that. You're. Yeah. Yeah, I think you put that in the Patreon. Yeah. That's right. Healing for the soul there. Yeah. That's right. Okay.

00;07;49;25 - 00;07;53;01
Joshua Hoffert
Jumping. Let's jump back in now. Okay, now that we got where.

00;07;53;01 - 00;07;54;13
Andrew Miller
So where the heck are we?

00;07;54;13 - 00;07;55;13
Andrew Miller
So we're okay.

00;07;55;21 - 00;08;06;26
Joshua Hoffert
There's two. There's kind of two ways that we could go because we want to honor your time to, the I, I do, I would like to get to.

00;08;06;28 - 00;08;07;25
Andrew Miller
How.

00;08;07;27 - 00;08;28;02
Joshua Hoffert
The, the, the four parts of the heart. Yes. How that developed and how you saw that. But I'd also like to hear because we've, you know, we've we've kind of got the trajectory of counseling, you know, and you're involved with the inner healing teams and you're going to school and you're taking the so we've kind of got the trajectory there.

00;08;28;04 - 00;08;44;02
Joshua Hoffert
But the also the trajectory of what did it look like? Actually going, I'm going to become a priest. And in the Anglican church. So I'd like to cover both of those. I don't know if we have time to cover both of them. I think I'd go ahead, Mary.

00;08;44;08 - 00;08;44;17
Andrew Miller
I think.

00;08;44;17 - 00;08;47;05
Andrew Miller
I can do I think I can move that along.

00;08;47;05 - 00;08;48;01
Andrew Miller
Pretty good. Okay.

00;08;48;03 - 00;08;54;00
Murray Dueck
Okay, good. Okay. Because it would be great to hear it. And. Yeah. Yeah. Just sit back. I want to just listen.

00;08;54;04 - 00;09;20;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Because I want to I definitely want to talk about those. I find when you when you start to understand the like, I was having a conversation with a friend, and describing to him the four parts and how he's, he's navigated some, some significant church hurt me was a he was a pastor left he has a hard time going into a church now, but he gets a lot of anxiety in that.

00;09;20;08 - 00;09;23;08
Joshua Hoffert
And I was describing the four parts of the heart and how.

00;09;23;10 - 00;09;24;02
Andrew Miller


00;09;24;04 - 00;09;49;09
Joshua Hoffert
And, and I was saying to him, well, you know, in your work, he's, he works in a, a industry where there could be a lot of dangerous equipment. And I said in your work, you know, the the particular task you have to do, and, you know, when you're doing that task, your emotions are on high alert, because you're going, I could I could fall, I could hurt myself and all of that.

00;09;49;09 - 00;10;10;21
Joshua Hoffert
But you also know that when you're in that position, you have to reason with yourself and go, okay, no, I've got the right equipment, I'm in the right place. And so you talk yourself down. I said, right within that conversation, you've got your function, you've got your emotion, and you've got your guardian. All reasoning within, you know, you kind of talk that way in your internal life anyway.

00;10;10;23 - 00;10;18;16
Joshua Hoffert
And and so once someone understands that, it starts to make a lot more sense that we're actually talking now.

00;10;18;16 - 00;10;28;27
Andrew Miller
And I now include, and I wouldn't have been in the material that you read, but I had an old priest,

00;10;28;29 - 00;10;31;23
Andrew Miller


00;10;32;22 - 00;10;46;01
Andrew Miller
Just tell you this quick story. I was, called by a priest. What they inquired if I could come do a healing training and specifically heart sink.

00;10;46;03 - 00;10;50;08
Murray Dueck
Oh. One second, if you don't mind. Drop your recording. Did you hit record again?

00;10;50;09 - 00;10;51;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. I never stopped recording. So we're.

00;10;51;25 - 00;10;57;07
Murray Dueck
Okay. I'm sorry. Okay, so this is just so good. I want to make sure that we don't miss this.

00;10;57;09 - 00;11;24;18
Andrew Miller
Yeah. So, I had a call from a, priest in Virginia that, asked me what I come do. Heart sink training, for their church. And we talked about it, and I, I was it was that point that you reach where you're you have to sift through invitations.

00;11;24;21 - 00;11;25;16
Andrew Miller


00;11;25;18 - 00;11;56;15
Andrew Miller
And then for me, the determining factor is who's really going to take it and implement it and become mentored in it and help, help reproduce. That's what I'm looking for. It. There was this juncture where that hit somewhere around, you know, 2000, 11, 20, 12 and, but I, I the previous week I had had this dream.

00;11;56;15 - 00;12;06;27
Andrew Miller
And in the dream, I'm walking down the street with another ministry friend and someone said to me, are you ready to have your meeting with the president?

00;12;06;29 - 00;12;08;13
Andrew Miller
Oh, interesting.

00;12;08;18 - 00;12;24;11
Andrew Miller
And I said, yes. And this person was kind of this matriarchal looking woman who I don't know about. You know, you talk about experiences I have several times now have had wisdom show up in my dream.

00;12;24;11 - 00;12;26;01
Andrew Miller
Right. Sure. Yes.

00;12;26;03 - 00;12;53;21
Andrew Miller
And sometimes convey things with a very poignant statement. Statement. But anyway, as this person I understood later to be wisdom said to me, well, you you may come in, but this person couldn't come in and and I think it was because I was Anglican and she lets me through the checkpoint. And at the time it was President Obama and I'm talking with President Obama.

00;12;53;21 - 00;12;56;14
Andrew Miller
He and I are walking down the street.

00;12;56;17 - 00;12;57;04
Andrew Miller


00;12;57;06 - 00;13;29;27
Andrew Miller
But to bring it back to the story, then, you know, I'm trying to determine I said, well, I'm going to have to pray about it. You know, consider if I'm supposed to come there or not. And then this priest said, well, you know, this is just a little, bit of history, but it was Falls Church, Virginia, and and this priest said, it might interest you to know that this was George Washington's church.

00;13;29;29 - 00;13;30;29
Andrew Miller
Oh, oh.

00;13;31;00 - 00;13;32;00
Joshua Hoffert
Interesting.

00;13;32;02 - 00;13;32;19
Andrew Miller
Thing.

00;13;32;19 - 00;13;39;19
Andrew Miller
And so I said, well, I'm coming. I already know like that. I've already had a word from the Lord.

00;13;39;19 - 00;13;42;08
Andrew Miller
I'm supposed to come. Right.

00;13;42;11 - 00;14;05;11
Andrew Miller
So I've been there a couple of times, but there was this old priest there, I don't remember his name, but I had dinner with him one night, and like a lot of people, he struggled with the concepts of the four core parts of the heart. And he said it took me a couple of days. He said, I'm on board with you.

00;14;05;13 - 00;14;10;17
Andrew Miller
But he said a couple of things he said, I think would really help you.

00;14;10;20 - 00;14;11;08
Andrew Miller
And,

00;14;11;10 - 00;14;25;24
Andrew Miller
So I listened to his wisdom. He said in the back of your notebook. He said, it took me a while to find it. I found your statement of faith. He said, I think you need to put that in the front of the notebook.

00;14;25;27 - 00;14;27;08
Andrew Miller
Sure.

00;14;27;10 - 00;14;55;09
Andrew Miller
So he said that would have put me at ease right away. Like I would know you're not some crazy person trying to, you know, because he said, this is a little strange when you first start hearing it and seeing. And he said, the other thing is, is I think the use of some cognates would be helpful in terms of how we all do self-talk.

00;14;55;11 - 00;14;56;06
Andrew Miller
Yeah.

00;14;56;08 - 00;15;06;14
Andrew Miller
And I said, well, that's a good idea. And kind of like you're saying Joshua, there we are. We're having a conversation within ourself all the time.

00;15;06;14 - 00;15;07;26
Andrew Miller
All the time. Yeah.

00;15;07;29 - 00;15;14;22
Andrew Miller
Different aspects of our being. And we just have not thought of it that way. Yeah.

00;15;14;25 - 00;15;21;00
Joshua Hoffert
So I want you to think of it that way. You can you can usually identify the voice pretty clearly. Yeah. And.

00;15;21;02 - 00;15;22;00
Andrew Miller
Yeah. Oh, yeah.

00;15;22;00 - 00;15;48;26
Joshua Hoffert
That's, you know, like I said this morning, going, oh, like I'm going to be, you know, I shared, I shared, or I'm going to be, I just would have a personality if I didn't have my humor. Right. And all of a sudden I go, oh, that's a guardian, right? I'm protecting myself. And so now that I'm familiar with the language and can think through the cognates going, oh, yeah, we do actually have those internal dialogs all the time.

00;15;48;26 - 00;16;07;10
Joshua Hoffert
And it's helpful framing for me to see. And I think you could probably, you could probably pull it apart based on, you know, we've we've said this before when we chatted a couple days ago, the the four parts kind of roughly correspond correspond to the four layers of brain development.

00;16;07;13 - 00;16;07;19
Andrew Miller
Yeah.

00;16;07;20 - 00;16;28;20
Joshua Hoffert
Well you know you go Guardian, you're going you know that would be what stage two which is the fight or flight center level two fight or flight. Right. The amygdala. Yeah. And so you're going, oh yeah. That's that's that part of me that I'm scared right now. Right. And how do I navigate this horrible thing, this hard thing.

00;16;28;20 - 00;16;47;20
Joshua Hoffert
And oh, now my prefrontal cortex or my cingulate cortex comes in and it's going, well, actually this is the kind of information that we have. This is the kind of experience we have. We can calm down right now and, you know, there's my function coming in and going, okay, it's going to be all right. You know, I'm going, yeah.

00;16;47;20 - 00;16;47;29
Joshua Hoffert
You can.

00;16;47;29 - 00;16;49;03
Andrew Miller
Kind of.

00;16;49;05 - 00;17;13;26
Joshua Hoffert
You know, you can see yourself having this inner dialog with the stages and layers of your brain. It makes total sense to me now. But when I when Erin first started describing it to me as she was going through it, I was going, I get it. But but having like we've been involved in different outreach settings where we're going into new age communities and stuff like that, and you have to learn to think on the fly and translate things on the fly.

00;17;13;28 - 00;17;17;21
Joshua Hoffert
So because you'll get rejected if you use kind of your typical.

00;17;17;23 - 00;17;18;18
Andrew Miller


00;17;18;20 - 00;17;36;03
Joshua Hoffert
There was a guy that we used to we used to, hang around with and learn from named Doug Addison, who was involved with Streams Ministries and John Paul Jackson and and Doug was an expert at this. When you go, if you try and tell someone, oh, God is sanctifying you, they're hugging, you have no idea what you mean.

00;17;36;05 - 00;17;53;13
Joshua Hoffert
And so how do you oh, you know, your life is getting cleaned up. And so how do you translate on the fly? And so when Aaron was started to tell these concepts to me, I was going, I get it, I'm there. People are going to hear this and go, that's weird. And that's what been one of the one of the more.

00;17;53;15 - 00;17;53;24
Andrew Miller
You're.

00;17;53;25 - 00;18;11;27
Joshua Hoffert
Having the conversation, especially early on for Erin, when she was when people were contacting her. What does this mean? I have multiple personalities and and so I've, you know, going through it, we've tried to develop language that says, well, let's talk about normalizing this. And,

00;18;11;29 - 00;18;29;04
Andrew Miller
Yeah, I think if you're speaking to people that are, familiar, fairly familiar with Scripture, you can go through a number of passages.

00;18;29;04 - 00;18;29;23
Andrew Miller
Totally.

00;18;29;23 - 00;19;03;29
Andrew Miller
Which which help describe what what Jesus called broken heartedness. As I said earlier, the, the that the, the Lord through the prophets promised to give us an undivided heart, I think. Right. He also said, you know, that, I'll put a new spirit in them. I'll give them, I'll remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.

00;19;04;01 - 00;19;35;03
Andrew Miller
In Jeremiah said, I'll give them an undivided heart, a singleness of heart, an action. So there's this there's this, way that Jesus is very focused on accomplishing this thing. And I believe it's to the end that we could fulfill the some of the law on the prophet, which is to love the Lord our God with all of our heart and all of our soul and all of our mind.

00;19;35;03 - 00;19;48;24
Andrew Miller
And I tell people, you know, Jesus. Jesus said, that's the some it's some of the law and the prophets. And so I tell people, well, that's all you have to do. Just just love God with all of your heart. Well, what does that mean?

00;19;48;26 - 00;19;50;09
Andrew Miller
Right?

00;19;50;12 - 00;20;23;25
Andrew Miller
What does that mean? So, if I were to tie this back in to the journey, I was recognizing in my own heart that there was a place that housed incredible, unresolved, negative emotion, pain and trauma. There clearly was another part that was, protecting that, keeping a lid on that. And when it came out, I was mad as hell at God.

00;20;23;27 - 00;20;24;14
Andrew Miller
Like.

00;20;24;16 - 00;20;25;07
Andrew Miller
Right?

00;20;25;07 - 00;20;46;20
Andrew Miller
I was extremely angry. In fact, I remember that part of my heart that we call Guardian saying to God, now, I didn't have these names there, sure. But I remember that that expression of my heart saying, you know who? What kind of a god are you that let this happen to you?

00;20;46;20 - 00;20;49;24
Andrew Miller
Right? Like like right.

00;20;49;27 - 00;20;58;27
Andrew Miller
And just really, you know, kind of pouring out my complaint. I tell people, you know, the Psalm does say pour out your complaint to the Lord.

00;20;58;29 - 00;21;00;13
Andrew Miller
Right? Right.

00;21;00;15 - 00;21;06;21
Andrew Miller
But then we have to give him the opportunity to answer, or else it becomes grumbling.

00;21;06;23 - 00;21;07;14
Andrew Miller
And that's.

00;21;07;15 - 00;21;11;10
Andrew Miller
Right. And grumbling doesn't turn out well if you read the scripture.

00;21;11;10 - 00;21;15;08
Andrew Miller
So yeah, you know, I was right.

00;21;15;11 - 00;21;21;05
Murray Dueck
Yeah. David Lanza played so well, you know, you've taken his crown for maybe you cast it in the dust.

00;21;21;07 - 00;21;24;22
Andrew Miller
Praise the Lord. You know, he. Yeah, he.

00;21;24;22 - 00;21;26;07
Murray Dueck
Always led the play, you know?

00;21;26;07 - 00;21;31;28
Joshua Hoffert
So the grumbling in the wilderness ended up dying where they were stuck. So, you know. That's right.

00;21;32;00 - 00;21;33;01
Andrew Miller
We don't want to do that.

00;21;33;01 - 00;21;34;07
Andrew Miller
No. Yeah.

00;21;34;09 - 00;21;50;02
Andrew Miller
And that's kind of the option. That was the backdrop. And the Lord knew I knew that. But what he said to me was, you know, Andy, you you can scream. What? You can scream. Why if you want to. He was very loving.

00;21;50;04 - 00;21;50;22
Andrew Miller
Right.

00;21;50;25 - 00;21;59;10
Andrew Miller
He met me with love. You can scream why, if you want to. Or you can enter into the healing provision that I.

00;21;59;11 - 00;21;59;22
Andrew Miller
Right.

00;21;59;22 - 00;22;10;18
Andrew Miller
For you. Wow. And then he said the choices yours. And I thought, well, that's really not much of a choice. Of course I want healing.

00;22;10;25 - 00;22;12;21
Andrew Miller
Right. But but you'd.

00;22;12;21 - 00;22;14;08
Andrew Miller
Be surprised how many people.

00;22;14;08 - 00;22;14;27
Andrew Miller
Choose. That's true.

00;22;14;27 - 00;22;37;09
Andrew Miller
Not to do it. Choose. Choose not to take the journey into their heart, you know. So, you know, then I'm. So I get through this season. Of healing goes on for a while, and it becomes this time of glorious, communion.

00;22;37;11 - 00;22;38;01
Andrew Miller
Of course.

00;22;38;01 - 00;22;49;14
Andrew Miller
With these aspects of my heart, the the now the barriers are, are not there anymore. And I'm experiencing God in richer ways.

00;22;49;14 - 00;22;50;07
Andrew Miller
Yeah.

00;22;50;10 - 00;23;02;20
Andrew Miller
And I finish graduate school and, go into practice and immediately get the most complex, broken hearted people that you can imagine.

00;23;02;22 - 00;23;03;10
Andrew Miller
Right?

00;23;03;10 - 00;23;14;23
Andrew Miller
The ones that are multiple personalities, the ones that you know, and, I think there must have been an angel just directing,

00;23;14;25 - 00;23;17;12
Andrew Miller
To know to.

00;23;17;13 - 00;23;44;09
Andrew Miller
Me. And at first I kept trying to refer them out. I didn't want to do it right. And, but then they kept coming and kept coming and, in prayer, I finally yielded and said, well, Lord, if you want me, you. It seems like you want me to learn how to to deal with this population. Yes. You know, I want you to know I'm willing.

00;23;44;12 - 00;23;44;22
Andrew Miller
Right.

00;23;44;23 - 00;23;48;15
Andrew Miller
And let's see, there's a principle in that God can do a lot with willing.

00;23;48;21 - 00;23;50;02
Andrew Miller
Yeah. Yes.

00;23;50;04 - 00;23;53;03
Andrew Miller
He he provides what we need as long as we're willing.

00;23;53;03 - 00;23;54;13
Andrew Miller
Yeah.

00;23;54;16 - 00;24;21;11
Andrew Miller
And so I started working with people and this went on for, I describe it as the 10 to 15 years of, banging my head against the wall and treatment. A lot of good healing happened. But now, mind you, I was still using what I describe as lower level deliverance, when there would be spiritual manifestations. Sure. That was that wasn't working very well.

00;24;21;15 - 00;24;22;15
Andrew Miller
What? What.

00;24;22;17 - 00;24;25;18
Joshua Hoffert
You know, what era are we in, timewise?

00;24;25;21 - 00;24;50;14
Andrew Miller
Oh. This would have been, in the early 90s. Okay. All all through the 90s and the first part of the 2000 and, but, but I started noticing these patterns, like, we were talking about these different expressions of the heart. I could see that because I was going to church with many of these people, right?

00;24;50;14 - 00;25;13;15
Andrew Miller
I could see that how they presented in church was very different from how they presented in my office once the door was closed, like then, then it's like the shift would take place. There would be this emotional being just sobbing and sharing their story and sometimes there would be this part that would move to protect and lock down.

00;25;13;18 - 00;25;22;09
Andrew Miller
I remember the day the first time I really, in my mind, that was an inanimate object.

00;25;22;11 - 00;25;22;28
Andrew Miller


00;25;23;00 - 00;25;25;19
Andrew Miller
Even though I'd had my own guardian face.

00;25;25;22 - 00;25;26;19
Andrew Miller
Right.

00;25;26;22 - 00;25;35;05
Andrew Miller
The Lord, I wasn't quite there yet to consider. I hadn't connected the dots that.

00;25;35;07 - 00;25;36;20
Andrew Miller
Right.

00;25;36;22 - 00;25;45;18
Andrew Miller
That what I experienced was like the parts I was witnessing in in people who were severely broken hearted.

00;25;45;21 - 00;25;46;21
Andrew Miller
Right.

00;25;46;23 - 00;26;16;29
Andrew Miller
And in fact, that question didn't come till later. And, anyways, you know, I noticed in these individuals they could shift. They could shift to a part of their heart and mind that could do the functional tasks of daily life and logic and reasoning. They could had an emotional center. They had this part that could keep those two apart so that they could function.

00;26;17;01 - 00;26;54;27
Andrew Miller
I eventually came to call that guardian. And then what was remarkable is, despite being an immense pain, they sometimes had this part of their heart or an aspect of their being that could make just this incredible connection with God right. And so eventually came to call that the true cells. And, you know, I still at that point, I thought those pronounced personality part expressions, you know, David said, I use the word parts.

00;26;55;00 - 00;27;05;21
Andrew Miller
You know, I developed this all in the current or the, the course, but, you know, the Lord said, David said that the Lord desires truth in the inner part.

00;27;05;21 - 00;27;07;11
Andrew Miller
Right.

00;27;07;13 - 00;27;25;16
Andrew Miller
So he used the terms parts. There are other terms. You know, Matthew talks about children and little ones, the sheep, you know, the parable of the lost sheep. He clearly is talking, I think about parts of the heart and where Tim.

00;27;25;19 - 00;27;26;09
Andrew Miller
Right, gives it.

00;27;26;09 - 00;27;28;22
Andrew Miller
A different treatment than the other gospels.

00;27;28;29 - 00;27;29;24
Andrew Miller
Right.

00;27;29;26 - 00;27;57;01
Andrew Miller
He clearly is talking about it because the the verse before the parable, he says, be careful not to harm one of these little ones, referring to the children. Remember, he put the child in their midst and said, unless you become trusting and lowly like this little child, you cannot enter the kingdom of God, which just means same word as it's defined later in Romans as righteousness, peace, and joy.

00;27;57;01 - 00;28;19;28
Andrew Miller
And the Holy Spirit. So, but he goes from that there angels see the face of my father in heaven. To what do you think of a man has 100 sheep and he loses one. Will he not leave the 99 to go after that one? And when he's found that one, will he not rejoice more over that one?

00;28;20;01 - 00;28;56;23
Andrew Miller
The 99 were not lost, and Jesus concludes with, just so it is not my father's will that any of these little ones would be lost. And I, I really see that, you know, I know one of your questions talked about this like, what is the language we use? And the first thing the Lord brought to me is, was that great prayer of Paul in Ephesians three, where he talks about the power of the Holy Spirit emanating from the father.

00;28;56;25 - 00;29;34;21
Andrew Miller
He sends forth the power of the Holy Spirit to strengthen or minister to the inner man, right? So that together with all the saints we might know the love of Christ, the height and the depth. So all these terms are like biblical terms used to describe some aspect of our broken hearted being and and heart sink. We're just now we're putting we're describing the roles of what these different aspects of of the heart or doing.

00;29;34;23 - 00;30;03;06
Andrew Miller
And it was in the mid 2000s. You mentioned, the book that you read. I remember I was in the middle of my own personal research project at that time, and the question I was exploring was, do all people have these four core personality dynamics? I could see them in the severely broken hearted. And then even more, even more fragmentation and more splits.

00;30;03;08 - 00;30;04;03
Andrew Miller


00;30;04;05 - 00;30;29;26
Andrew Miller
But the question was, see, it wasn't now. It just wasn't now. And so I decided I did a sample group of 80 people, and, I wasn't at the end of that study, I wrote that, appendix in the spring of that year. I was getting there. I was pretty convinced because I was seeing the same results over and over.

00;30;29;29 - 00;30;56;00
Andrew Miller
But by the end of the year, I was thoroughly convinced that absolutely all people on the face of the planet have at least these four core aspects to their human personality. Well, truest true self, function, guardian and emotion. I haven't found I'm way over 10,000 heart sinks and I haven't found anybody that doesn't have them yet.

00;30;56;03 - 00;30;57;02
Andrew Miller
Right?

00;30;57;04 - 00;31;41;14
Andrew Miller
But then there were two other really, really important findings. That and the the first one I argued with God over. Actually, both of them were really surprising to me. And, and again, all these years later, I keep getting the same results that when you sit down and, you know, the average Christian has these core parts and you go to intentionally, you're making experiential connection with Jesus through prayer, through whatever their spiritual discipline is.

00;31;41;16 - 00;31;51;11
Andrew Miller
When you go to check on these core parts, it's rare for more than two of them to be in full relationship with God.

00;31;51;14 - 00;31;53;06
Andrew Miller
Okay, right.

00;31;53;08 - 00;32;12;06
Andrew Miller
That's a big that's worth the price of admission. Big. And this is what I remember sitting there and saying to God, God, this can't be true like that. He said, well, it's true. While like, why do you think I said, I'm coming to.

00;32;12;09 - 00;32;16;11
Andrew Miller
Hit rock hard, right? Yeah. I thought, well, I.

00;32;16;11 - 00;32;18;08
Andrew Miller
Didn't know it was this bad.

00;32;18;10 - 00;32;18;23
Andrew Miller
Yeah.

00;32;18;23 - 00;32;23;26
Andrew Miller
I mean, think about the implications of that finding what that means is shocking.

00;32;23;26 - 00;32;25;08
Murray Dueck
Like, oh my goodness.

00;32;25;11 - 00;32;35;10
Andrew Miller
It's staggering. We have a church full of people or doing whatever it is they're doing with only half of their heart connected.

00;32;35;13 - 00;32;36;14
Andrew Miller
Yeah.

00;32;36;17 - 00;32;39;08
Andrew Miller
And it's no wonder the church is such a mouse.

00;32;39;10 - 00;32;40;19
Andrew Miller


00;32;40;22 - 00;33;08;26
Andrew Miller
And then and why we can't come into our true calling. Why we can't operate out of our true self and do what you know, God is really calling us to do. But the other thing was nearly 100% of the time the Guardian is not in communion with God. Like that was a stout. But I hear it. Oh, I hear it every day, over and over and over.

00;33;09;00 - 00;33;35;16
Andrew Miller
Did you know that you were meant to be in this relationship? And I'm talking about spirit filled Christians, right? I can count on one hand the number of people that I've ever faced with over all these years who, through their spiritual disciplines, manage to get all of their core parts into relationship with Jesus. You can't see it back.

00;33;35;16 - 00;34;02;05
Andrew Miller
There's a see the edge of a communion cup and some. Yeah, I have a paten, a communion plate that this guy made for me out of a disease. Maple tree. He was a retired. He was in his 80s, a retired Presbyterian pastor, and he was one of these people. He he sat through this entire conference and he volunteered to do be a live demonstration.

00;34;02;05 - 00;34;31;27
Andrew Miller
So and you know, where I do a heart sink session with I do live heart sink sessions and my conferences, and he was the easiest heart sink I ever did because he had such spiritual disciplines that these core parts of his heart were already, he had managed to get them connected to God. And I'm sitting there thinking, you stinker, you, you.

00;34;32;00 - 00;34;32;28
Andrew Miller
And I said to him.

00;34;32;28 - 00;34;34;14
Andrew Miller
Yeah.

00;34;34;16 - 00;34;58;29
Andrew Miller
I said, when you volunteered to do this, to be the to be to do the demo, I said, you already knew you've been listening to this information. You were already checking in with your heart, and you knew that your heart was in communion. These core parts were in communion with God, didn't you? He said, yes, I knew. I said, well, why?

00;34;59;02 - 00;35;32;02
Andrew Miller
Why did you volunteer to be the demo? And his answer was priceless. What he said was, I'm always looking for ways to get closer to Jesus. Isn't that classic? I'm always looking for ways to get closer to Jesus, which is why he was there. Now, he had he had some trauma that we prayed, we prayed for Jesus to take and do.

00;35;32;04 - 00;35;52;13
Andrew Miller
Did the trauma release prayer and, his wife had died of cancer. And so he had that trauma, but otherwise he was he was pretty good. But I find, I mean, five people out of thousands and thousands is not very many.

00;35;52;20 - 00;35;59;23
Andrew Miller
Yeah. That's shocking.

00;35;59;25 - 00;36;30;08
Andrew Miller
So. That was that was a big moment. And then with, then came the brain science kind of overlaid on top of that. And that was when I drew all the pictures. I still use in trainings. It was like, oh my gosh, like all this fits like a glove that these major areas of the brain, you know, they.

00;36;30;11 - 00;36;49;07
Andrew Miller
They basically do the same role as the core part. We can't say they correlate directly because the brain sciences pretty it's pretty amazing. That's pretty.

00;36;49;09 - 00;36;53;20
Andrew Miller
Looks like we're we're missing the connection. I to RFI.

00;36;53;21 - 00;36;57;29
Joshua Hoffert
Summary. Are you still I'm. My internet is.

00;36;58;01 - 00;37;09;27
Murray Dueck
My. Yeah I can't tell I lost part of that. Sorry. Father Andrew part of that dropped out, so I got I got some of it, but unfortunately a lot of that the audio just dropped.

00;37;09;29 - 00;37;10;27
Andrew Miller
Well.

00;37;10;29 - 00;37;12;28
Murray Dueck
Because it's local or recorded, it'll be fine.

00;37;12;28 - 00;37;13;16
Joshua Hoffert
It'll be fine.

00;37;13;16 - 00;37;17;06
Andrew Miller
Yeah, yeah.

00;37;17;09 - 00;37;20;23
Andrew Miller
Meaning I don't have to repeat anything.

00;37;20;26 - 00;37;22;10
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, you shouldn't have to repeat anything.

00;37;22;11 - 00;37;23;27
Andrew Miller
No. Yeah, yeah.

00;37;24;00 - 00;37;25;05
Andrew Miller
Okay. All right.

00;37;25;09 - 00;37;28;21
Murray Dueck
But to hear the story, we'll just have to listen to it later. Unfortunately.

00;37;28;23 - 00;37;34;05
Andrew Miller
That. Oh, I don't know if I brought it to a good conclusion. Yeah.

00;37;34;05 - 00;37;35;22
Joshua Hoffert
Well, we're in suspense.

00;37;35;24 - 00;37;39;17
Andrew Miller
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

00;37;39;17 - 00;37;53;10
Joshua Hoffert
Well, I mean, we got. You were talking about, you were sharing an example of someone whose four core parts had found, synchronization. Yeah. And, yeah. So we got we got the gist.

00;37;53;10 - 00;37;54;28
Andrew Miller
And so.

00;37;55;00 - 00;38;04;04
Andrew Miller
Yeah. So you have, Well, and then I was,

00;38;04;06 - 00;38;25;26
Andrew Miller
You know, however it is that you do that, I think of the different ways the different disciplines that people use, whether it's lectio divina or prime, listening prayer or centering prayer or, you know, there are all these disciplines that people use, Mark was done some.

00;38;26;03 - 00;38;26;16
Andrew Miller
Right.

00;38;26;21 - 00;38;34;03
Andrew Miller
Good material on hearing. God, I've got my own version of that. Carl Layman, you know, who was with.

00;38;34;04 - 00;38;34;21
Andrew Miller
Right.

00;38;34;23 - 00;38;50;25
Andrew Miller
The life model did the Emmanuel approach. I, I used to teach that because in our community, we were doing their modules along with heart healing, and it just made a really good kind of one two punch. Wow.

00;38;50;27 - 00;38;51;06
Andrew Miller
Right.

00;38;51;07 - 00;39;06;16
Andrew Miller
I've have, but, you know, I, I just say people need some way to make experiential connection to the.

00;39;06;16 - 00;39;09;04
Andrew Miller
Lord, right?

00;39;09;06 - 00;39;40;26
Andrew Miller
The other thing that I was finishing up on when the, when the internet that went a little wonky on us, was I was talking about just we cannot say that the core parts that they correlate directly to these areas of the brain. It's, I have to say roughly. Yeah, doctor, doctor, layman said, you know, we have about 2 billion, you know, neurons in our in the human brain.

00;39;40;26 - 00;39;45;05
Andrew Miller
And they're some of them have as many as 10,000 interconnections.

00;39;45;07 - 00;39;46;01
Andrew Miller
Right.

00;39;46;03 - 00;39;55;24
Andrew Miller
And there's a lot of synchronization going on in the human brain. And I said, yeah, the what we see in heart sink is there's just not enough.

00;39;55;26 - 00;39;57;02
Andrew Miller
Right? Right.

00;39;57;02 - 00;40;18;00
Andrew Miller
And there's the spiritual component of being brought into relationship with with the Lord. And that affects the brain immensely. So, so we have to be careful when we talk about it, but we are body, soul and spirit, right?

00;40;18;01 - 00;40;19;18
Andrew Miller
Absolutely, absolutely.

00;40;19;21 - 00;40;33;17
Andrew Miller
And the, you know, I love this time of year. It always emphasizes the eternal quality of the body, right? Like we're we're.

00;40;33;17 - 00;40;35;25
Andrew Miller


00;40;35;28 - 00;40;40;08
Andrew Miller
You know, think about it. It's the only main religion that does this. We're.

00;40;40;11 - 00;40;40;25
Joshua Hoffert
That's true.

00;40;40;25 - 00;40;43;00
Andrew Miller
We're going to have an eternal body.

00;40;43;02 - 00;40;46;03
Andrew Miller
Yeah. It's more, Yeah.

00;40;46;05 - 00;40;51;24
Joshua Hoffert
They're you know, it's interesting. I'm just thinking of the story of.

00;40;51;26 - 00;40;53;13
Andrew Miller
Of.

00;40;53;15 - 00;41;32;22
Joshua Hoffert
Kind of the life of Saint Anthony, Anthony the Great, you know, Anthony of Egypt, the first great desert. Father and mother, you'd be familiar with this. Where you've got his his experience in the fort, when he first retreats into the desert and he's going through so much struggle with the manifestation of demons and things like that, and he's in physical pain, and he's he's, he has this experience where the light shines through the the ceiling and he hears God say, you know, Anthony, in a way, the this test has come.

00;41;32;22 - 00;41;38;12
Joshua Hoffert
You've proven yourself. And, I've been there all along. And Anthony, because Anthony's going, where have you been?

00;41;38;14 - 00;41;40;10
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I know that's my favorite part of that story.

00;41;40;10 - 00;41;41;03
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Where have you.

00;41;41;03 - 00;41;43;14
Murray Dueck
Been to God, where have you been?

00;41;43;16 - 00;41;44;07
Andrew Miller
And if you.

00;41;44;10 - 00;41;45;28
Joshua Hoffert
Know. So I'm thinking you can look.

00;41;45;28 - 00;41;47;09
Andrew Miller
Back.

00;41;47;11 - 00;42;15;17
Joshua Hoffert
At Anthony and his whole life experience. And you're going, he's got motion function guardian that are happening in this in this, experience. True self is connecting with the father in this experience. And he's going he's he's giving his complaint. Right. His guardian is going, this was painful and this hurt. Where were you. Right. He's got his anger directed towards God.

00;42;15;19 - 00;42;26;21
Joshua Hoffert
But he's able to process it in connection and union. And and then he's got a series of that. The The Life of Anthony, written by Athanasius, describes a series of.

00;42;26;24 - 00;42;27;14
Andrew Miller


00;42;27;16 - 00;42;57;29
Joshua Hoffert
Encounters. And then Anthony actually has a teaching in, I think it's in his letters to his disciples where he talks about discerning a true or false vision. What how you can tell these things apart, how this works in the inner man. So he's aware of the nuances and then his one of his ultimate sayings, you know, like his kind of final resting place in, in his teaching is, it's just it's just so beautiful how he sums it up.

00;42;57;29 - 00;43;03;25
Joshua Hoffert
He says I no longer fear God. I only love him. For perfect love has cast out all fear.

00;43;03;27 - 00;43;04;22
Andrew Miller


00;43;04;24 - 00;43;27;01
Joshua Hoffert
And I'm just thinking of that, that process of synchronization because that's ultimately what he's saying. I'm synchronized with him. Right. And fear. Fear has worked itself out of me because it no longer serves the purpose of guarding me, protecting me or keeping me safe because I've discovered I'm loved and he loves me, right. And so he's not.

00;43;27;01 - 00;43;27;15
Andrew Miller
Saying that the.

00;43;27;15 - 00;43;29;25
Joshua Hoffert
Thing was never there. He's saying it's worked itself out.

00;43;29;27 - 00;43;30;15
Andrew Miller
Yeah.

00;43;30;17 - 00;43;37;04
Andrew Miller
You know what I love about that story, though, is you see the progression.

00;43;37;04 - 00;43;39;04
Andrew Miller
Yes.

00;43;39;06 - 00;43;46;28
Andrew Miller
And these saints that I've talked about in this life who've been able to achieve full synchronization.

00;43;47;01 - 00;43;47;25
Andrew Miller
Yeah.

00;43;47;27 - 00;44;18;18
Andrew Miller
The thing I've noticed is that they find it very difficult to be able to tell you how they got there from right. And so I think it's important to be able to say these, these principles and these steps will help you get there. Like there's a great there's a huge principle in that. The story of Saint Anthony, you know, when he says, God, where were you?

00;44;18;18 - 00;44;25;14
Andrew Miller
And God says, I'm here. I was here all along. Well, you know, that's Deuteronomy 31.

00;44;25;15 - 00;44;26;16
Andrew Miller
Right where he.

00;44;26;16 - 00;44;29;11
Andrew Miller
Says, I'll never leave you. I'll never forsake you.

00;44;29;13 - 00;44;29;23
Andrew Miller
Right.

00;44;29;25 - 00;44;39;26
Andrew Miller
It's this promise. And in Matthew 28, Jesus is about descending low. I am with you always.

00;44;39;28 - 00;44;40;14
Andrew Miller
Right.

00;44;40;17 - 00;44;51;08
Andrew Miller
And then, of course, he sends the Holy Spirit to dwell in our hearts. And we have, you know, obviously we have sometimes waning awareness of that.

00;44;51;14 - 00;44;53;23
Andrew Miller
Sure.

00;44;53;25 - 00;44;56;15
Andrew Miller
But he's here. That's, that's a huge principle.

00;44;56;21 - 00;44;57;04
Andrew Miller
Yeah.

00;44;57;04 - 00;45;07;23
Andrew Miller
Like whether we know it or not, he's here. It's just our ability to discern his presence. Right. You know,

00;45;07;25 - 00;45;08;18
Joshua Hoffert
So would you say.

00;45;08;18 - 00;45;09;03
Andrew Miller
That. Yeah.

00;45;09;05 - 00;45;16;29
Andrew Miller
So that's an important principle. Of course there are. There are others that. Can help people.

00;45;17;01 - 00;45;17;20
Andrew Miller
Oh, yeah.

00;45;17;20 - 00;45;30;27
Murray Dueck
Absolutely. Wow. So it's so much application going on as I'm doing about this. You know, I'm going through some life experience going, okay, look at that. I can see that right there. Very fascinating. I would love to process that. Yeah.

00;45;30;27 - 00;45;35;21
Joshua Hoffert
I wonder if you would say, because, you know.

00;45;35;22 - 00;45;36;17
Andrew Miller
I that.

00;45;36;17 - 00;46;12;09
Joshua Hoffert
That the, you said the person who's synchronized the people that you've, you've met that are synchronized, they have a hard time describing. I loved how you said that you have a hard time describing how they got there, that it's not so much here's these four steps and you will arrive. And and even when you look at, you know, thinking about the Desert Fathers, because a lot of what they present is practical wisdom and guidance in how do you live the life out not here's the four things, but it's, you know, it's the to me, I think the, the, the rudimentary inner healing practices were when people would come to the father and go give would

00;46;12;09 - 00;46;34;24
Joshua Hoffert
you give me a word? ABBA and that all the would speak into their life? The father would speak into their life and usually give them some kind of follow up exercise to do. Right. You know, there's Macarius, a great goes, and he meets the guy who the devil's tempting, and he identifies with his pain, and he identifies with the temptation and then says, just fast, a little more, pray a little bit more.

00;46;34;26 - 00;47;10;28
Joshua Hoffert
And the guy does, and he overcomes the temptation, right? He gives them some, he hears them, he sees him, he validates them. And then he gives them a couple different exercises to practice. And then the next thing you know, the devil comes in. He can't find that place of temptation anymore. So. So it's very practical wisdom, right? And I'm thinking about, would you say that when it comes to, heart sink or, you know, any kind of approach to healing is what you're essentially doing is you're trying to set the stage for the person to encounter the Holy Spirit.

00;47;11;00 - 00;47;30;22
Joshua Hoffert
And then he does the work. And now the integration happens because not because you did something, but because the Lord did something, is what I'm trying to say. I guess, is healing. Integration happens, not because of the perfect model, but because we set the stage for the Holy Spirit to come.

00;47;30;24 - 00;47;49;02
Andrew Miller
Yeah, I think we we set the stage. And, you know, I'm thinking about Hebrews four, which, you know, is the chapter which talks about entering into his rest, that while today is called today, be careful to enter into the Sabbath rest.

00;47;49;05 - 00;47;50;06
Andrew Miller
Right.

00;47;50;09 - 00;47;56;20
Andrew Miller
It sounds a little oxymoronic, but it says strive, refresh.

00;47;56;22 - 00;47;57;11
Murray Dueck
Enter, rest.

00;47;57;11 - 00;48;08;19
Andrew Miller
Yes. That's right. Yeah. Have you ever thought of that? Does that seem quite right? All right. So arrived, strive to enter, to strive.

00;48;08;19 - 00;48;27;01
Andrew Miller
To enter into the rest. And I think what that means is I've contemplated that, meditated on it. I, I think that there is a certain amount of effort that we have to put into attaining a place of rest with God.

00;48;27;03 - 00;48;29;08
Andrew Miller
Right? Right.

00;48;29;10 - 00;48;33;24
Andrew Miller
And, and when we're there, then we can rest.

00;48;33;27 - 00;48;34;29
Andrew Miller
But yeah.

00;48;35;01 - 00;48;37;14
Andrew Miller
We have to strive to get there.

00;48;37;21 - 00;48;38;04
Andrew Miller
Right?

00;48;38;05 - 00;49;16;13
Andrew Miller
Which is kind of what these experiences describe. But then when we do that, it's yes, we, we do want to set the table, so to speak, to, set the, create a culture and create an atmosphere using these principles where people can be led into the, hearing from God, trusting what they're hearing, deepening their encounters with God, recognizing, yes, he is here.

00;49;16;16 - 00;49;31;27
Andrew Miller
He doesn't leave me or forsake me. He is here. We just have to pay attention to how he's speaking to us. You know, and and he speaks to us a number of different ways.

00;49;32;00 - 00;49;33;08
Andrew Miller
Right.

00;49;33;10 - 00;50;05;29
Andrew Miller
And then once we're, you know, in a huge I think this is true, like a huge, barrier is, is our own heart like the dynamic of a heart that is not as communion as him? I call the guardian the gatekeeper. The Guardian is very distrustful. If it's been wounded in life, it's like, well, how is this guy any different?

00;50;06;01 - 00;50;10;00
Andrew Miller
Right? Right. Yeah. I mean, I've had.

00;50;10;03 - 00;50;32;13
Andrew Miller
You know, I've had very wounded people, you know, questioned my own motivation, like, why are you doing this? Are you setting me up to take advantage of me? Yeah. When you when you come from a deeply broken hearted place. That's an okay question to ask, right?

00;50;32;15 - 00;50;33;08
Andrew Miller
And,

00;50;33;10 - 00;50;42;01
Andrew Miller
You know, I'm just dedicating that my character is going to be the same over however many months we work right?

00;50;42;04 - 00;50;43;13
Andrew Miller
Right.

00;50;43;16 - 00;51;04;03
Joshua Hoffert
I guess that's that's because you're going back to the Hebrews passage there. It starts. It starts with today. If you would hear my voice. Do not heart in your hearts. Right. That's like that's the very first stages. Yeah. You're you're going to the Guardian is going to come forward and go. This isn't safe.

00;51;04;06 - 00;51;05;21
Andrew Miller
Yeah, yeah. And you're going to have to work.

00;51;05;21 - 00;51;08;25
Joshua Hoffert
To enter the rest because that's going to be a natural response.

00;51;08;28 - 00;51;20;12
Andrew Miller
Yeah. And I find that Guardian, the Guardian will block people's awareness of God. A lot of the time.

00;51;20;15 - 00;51;21;15
Andrew Miller
Right.

00;51;21;17 - 00;51;49;02
Andrew Miller
Now, a lot of the time. And then we'll prevent some of the spiritual gifting that we have, or block that. You know, I talk about five ways that people hear from God. We've got, you know, Jesus said, the Holy Spirit will remind you of what I've said. So we have all the Scripture that's that inspired by the Holy Spirit.

00;51;49;02 - 00;51;56;10
Andrew Miller
He'll bring it to mind. You know, like when we're contemplating something, he'll give us an answer through his word.

00;51;56;11 - 00;51;57;09
Andrew Miller
Right?

00;51;57;12 - 00;52;11;13
Andrew Miller
Yeah. We have the still small voice that Elijah, talked about and, you know, listening to that, we have knowledge, like.

00;52;11;15 - 00;52;12;05
Andrew Miller
Right.

00;52;12;08 - 00;52;26;27
Andrew Miller
So we have the, the classic, you know, gifts of the spirit mentioned in first Corinthians 12. There's the, the word gifts, but then there's knowledge where you just know something. You didn't know a man, right?

00;52;26;29 - 00;52;28;11
Andrew Miller
Right. Yeah.

00;52;28;13 - 00;52;52;22
Andrew Miller
And, some people receive very well that way. And, you know, when it comes to visions, I explain that, people, they can have simple visions. Like, sometimes people will have, like, the simplest form might be they see a word in space.

00;52;52;26 - 00;52;53;20
Andrew Miller
Right.

00;52;53;22 - 00;52;57;23
Andrew Miller
Well, the word says something about the condition of their heart that Jesus.

00;52;57;23 - 00;52;58;19
Andrew Miller
Right, right.

00;52;58;20 - 00;53;34;17
Andrew Miller
Wants to address. Or you can have a very complex vision. Sometimes they're moving, sometimes they're not. Sometimes they're a crossover between knowledge and vision. But, I think you guys will find this interesting. I, I had on, this occurred to me because, you know, I came through up through the New Age movement, where in the church, anything that was visually oriented was highly sure.

00;53;34;20 - 00;53;36;13
Andrew Miller
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

00;53;36;15 - 00;53;40;00
Andrew Miller
You know, like any kind of imagery was not of God.

00;53;40;06 - 00;53;41;12
Andrew Miller
Right.

00;53;41;15 - 00;53;45;03
Andrew Miller
Well, that just we wouldn't have half of the Bible if that.

00;53;45;03 - 00;53;45;29
Murray Dueck
Absolutely.

00;53;46;02 - 00;53;54;04
Joshua Hoffert
We already dealt with that in the iconoclastic convert or iconoclastic controversy, you know, in the eight, the ninth century. So what are we doing?

00;53;54;07 - 00;53;56;08
Andrew Miller
That's right. Just see the link below. Right?

00;53;56;09 - 00;54;04;17
Andrew Miller
Yeah, exactly. So. Well, so,

00;54;04;20 - 00;54;06;01
Andrew Miller
What was I just say the.

00;54;06;01 - 00;54;08;01
Joshua Hoffert
New Age movement, everything was.

00;54;08;03 - 00;54;10;02
Andrew Miller
Eight age movement. Yeah. Yeah, I was.

00;54;10;02 - 00;54;28;14
Andrew Miller
Contemplating this and reading, Romans chapter, chapter six. One day. And it occurred to me, how do I teach this? I'd been teaching, you know, this ability to image. We all have it. We use it a thousand times a day, if not more.

00;54;28;17 - 00;54;29;16
Andrew Miller
Right?

00;54;29;19 - 00;54;55;16
Andrew Miller
Like, I'm looking at you guys right now. I'm. Might be looking at the time, or I might be, you know, looking at other things. I image things before I take an action. I think about tying my shoes before I tie them right. I think about what shirt am I gonna put? I think about, you know, we image things literally.

00;54;55;16 - 00;54;58;24
Andrew Miller
I'm convinced a thousand times a day before we do them.

00;54;58;24 - 00;54;59;22
Andrew Miller
Yeah.

00;54;59;24 - 00;55;30;27
Andrew Miller
Well, the apostle Paul says, you know that we should. He's talking about the body that we should offer the members of our body to the use of the Holy Spirit as instruments of righteousness. And so I just instruct people, you know, if you're having trouble imaging. A connection with the Holy Spirit, however it is, he wants to reveal himself to you.

00;55;30;29 - 00;55;47;07
Andrew Miller
Would it be okay if we just pray, Lord, I, I give you, I offer you my ability to image things, right. Member of my body to the use of the Holy Spirit as an instrument of righteousness. Right?

00;55;47;10 - 00;55;49;24
Andrew Miller
So, I mean, I make the I make the point, you know.

00;55;49;24 - 00;55;57;10
Andrew Miller
Like, we all have this ability, like, you know, I make this, by saying, I'll say to you guys, do not think of an apple.

00;55;57;12 - 00;55;59;26
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Do what do you do immediately?

00;55;59;29 - 00;56;01;17
Andrew Miller
Yeah. Like what? Kind of like, what?

00;56;01;18 - 00;56;04;11
Joshua Hoffert
You just manipulate at me, you know?

00;56;04;14 - 00;56;04;26
Andrew Miller
Right.

00;56;04;26 - 00;56;06;17
Murray Dueck
What kind of apple am I not supposed to think about?

00;56;06;20 - 00;56;09;09
Andrew Miller
Yeah. You know, people.

00;56;09;09 - 00;56;15;23
Andrew Miller
Were telling me in a conference one time, minds read, you know, Galileo once my mind's.

00;56;15;25 - 00;56;16;17
Andrew Miller
Yeah.

00;56;16;20 - 00;56;31;24
Andrew Miller
Honeycrisp, you know, and one lady's, like, really detailed and cool. And the beads of water are rolling down of. And another lady spoke up and said, I've just seen my phone.

00;56;31;27 - 00;56;40;24
Andrew Miller
Right. Yes. Yes. From phone number. That's right. Yes. That's right. Right. Yeah. So the point is.

00;56;40;24 - 00;56;44;07
Andrew Miller
We all have we all have the ability to image.

00;56;44;07 - 00;56;45;24
Andrew Miller
Things. Yeah. You know.

00;56;45;24 - 00;56;46;17
Murray Dueck
What I see.

00;56;46;19 - 00;57;12;05
Andrew Miller
There is there is a very, a type of aphasia where some it's rare, but some people who can't, but then they can hear one of the other ways I have I'd like with this type of aphasia and, you know, the, I like to say, listen, have you ever used your ability to image things for unholy purposes?

00;57;12;06 - 00;57;13;04
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;57;13;07 - 00;57;13;26
Andrew Miller
Right.

00;57;13;28 - 00;57;15;28
Murray Dueck
Of course everyone's going to say yes to that.

00;57;16;00 - 00;57;21;28
Andrew Miller
Well, not again. And they go to your brain doing at that particular time.

00;57;22;00 - 00;57;25;22
Andrew Miller
Yeah, well, the Anglicans say yes, and the Mennonites say no.

00;57;25;22 - 00;57;32;11
Andrew Miller
I'm sorry. I'm right. That's right, that's right. I witness to this. Yes.

00;57;32;14 - 00;57;45;13
Joshua Hoffert
So here maybe we'll end on this question. The given all that we've talked about, and, and you can speak to it, unless Murray has any other thoughts, he wants to. Oh, other. I mean, there's a million.

00;57;45;15 - 00;57;48;00
Murray Dueck
But, I just don't have time.

00;57;48;01 - 00;57;51;20
Andrew Miller
Yeah, that. Well, this one all this one. All,

00;57;51;23 - 00;57;55;13
Joshua Hoffert
Anyway, is so.

00;57;55;15 - 00;57;56;18
Andrew Miller
The.

00;57;56;20 - 00;58;12;12
Joshua Hoffert
In a way, it's the goal of therapy. And, you know, as a counselor, as a priest, as a bishop. Now, we haven't even gotten to becoming the bishop. And you haven't even mentioned the order of the Undivided heart. We're gonna have to have you back.

00;58;12;17 - 00;58;17;27
Murray Dueck
I know, because even I we almost need to describe that for people. Why?

00;58;17;28 - 00;58;19;28
Andrew Miller
We're, We've just had too much.

00;58;20;00 - 00;58;20;10
Andrew Miller
We've had.

00;58;20;10 - 00;58;21;07
Joshua Hoffert
Too much. Right?

00;58;21;10 - 00;58;22;29
Murray Dueck
So it's great. It's been wonderful.

00;58;23;06 - 00;58;23;27
Andrew Miller
Because I think.

00;58;23;27 - 00;58;49;25
Joshua Hoffert
Sometimes when when people are talking about the healing journey, there's, there's a, there's a way of, you know, maybe this is part of the function, the functional part of the self is there's a way of compartmentalizing that away from my, my moment of salvation, because I said a prayer and, and all of that. So I'm, I'm a Christian and but now I'm, I'm finding healing.

00;58;49;27 - 00;58;51;15
Andrew Miller
Just so and.

00;58;51;18 - 00;58;52;29
Joshua Hoffert
And.

00;58;53;01 - 00;58;56;25
Andrew Miller
So it's a, hey, if that if that's.

00;58;56;25 - 00;58;59;18
Andrew Miller
Jesus, I think we should stop and listen.

00;58;59;21 - 00;59;02;07
Andrew Miller
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's.

00;59;02;14 - 00;59;03;26
Murray Dueck
It's a somebody who likes.

00;59;03;28 - 00;59;05;11
Joshua Hoffert
Someone who likes Jesus, so.

00;59;05;13 - 00;59;05;29
Andrew Miller
Okay.

00;59;06;02 - 00;59;10;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. So that's good. So is it is it.

00;59;10;21 - 00;59;12;29
Andrew Miller
That the point of.

00;59;13;02 - 00;59;23;14
Joshua Hoffert
Therapy is healing is it's separate from, you know, can you be a Christian and not healed? You know, I mean, that's a big conversation. I know that.

00;59;23;16 - 00;59;24;15
Andrew Miller


00;59;24;18 - 00;59;47;05
Joshua Hoffert
So, yeah, the way people separate those things out and compartmentalize that, is the goal of therapy to alleviate symptoms. Are we going? Well, we want people to be healed, so they're not struggling anymore, so I don't maybe you could speak into that a little bit. That's that's how people compartmentalize those things.

00;59;47;07 - 01;00;18;26
Andrew Miller
Yeah. I mean, I think about there are, a couple of words, in the Greek that both nouns and verbs, I think one of the verbs, used for healing, which it it's kind of a two pronged process, is actually the word faith therapy. Okay. From which, from which we get our word therapy. And, it, it refers it can be healing in two ways.

01;00;18;26 - 01;00;44;18
Andrew Miller
It can be, God, just touching you. So a miracle kind of healing. Or it can be a more prolonged process. It can be healing that comes through. And I think of, soaking prayer, like, like many people are healed, but through consistent.

01;00;44;20 - 01;00;46;05
Andrew Miller
Right.

01;00;46;07 - 01;01;18;02
Andrew Miller
Through consistent, prayer where we keep coming back and asking, and, and it's indicated like, like when you look in the commentaries. And I think it's a shame that some people get the notion, you know, there's a big difference between gifts of healing, which are rarely immediate, and gifts of miracle, which are instantaneous. You know, we all love to have instantaneous, right?

01;01;18;05 - 01;01;21;11
Andrew Miller
But, we we don't really today.

01;01;21;11 - 01;01;22;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;01;22;04 - 01;01;23;20
Andrew Miller
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01;01;23;23 - 01;01;24;23
Andrew Miller
So I tell people.

01;01;24;23 - 01;01;29;01
Andrew Miller
This is why I go with you can drive through, right? Yes. Yeah.

01;01;29;06 - 01;01;35;02
Andrew Miller
Or, McDonald's. So this is not Mac healing. This is,

01;01;35;04 - 01;01;36;27
Andrew Miller
All right.

01;01;36;29 - 01;02;04;07
Andrew Miller
This is engaging and entering into relationship with Jesus and through continued, it gives us a way to relate with him, with your whole, with your whole heart. You're still going through the sanctification process. You know, Romans 12, right? Being and you're not conforming to the pattern of the saint, but you're being transformed by the renewing of your mind.

01;02;04;09 - 01;02;12;27
Andrew Miller
So just to say, I've been healed, to check it off so that I can go on kind of misses the.

01;02;12;27 - 01;02;15;02
Andrew Miller
Point, right?

01;02;15;04 - 01;02;26;00
Andrew Miller
Right. Rather rather healing as, transformation so that we can continue in ever deepening relationship.

01;02;26;05 - 01;02;26;24
Andrew Miller
Right, with.

01;02;26;24 - 01;02;31;08
Andrew Miller
God loving him with all of our heart. And that is the point.

01;02;31;10 - 01;02;32;11
Andrew Miller
Right?

01;02;32;14 - 01;02;34;11
Andrew Miller
That is the point.

01;02;34;13 - 01;02;34;16
Andrew Miller


01;02;34;18 - 01;03;03;09
Joshua Hoffert
And that that to me, that seems like that's pretty much the that's not so much the point of the healing journey as it is. The point of all of life in general is to love him with our whole heart. Yeah. And it seems to me that that's the that's the first Corinthians 13 thing that Paul talks about. I'm, you know, now I'm known in part, but then I'm going to be fully known and every, every aspect of me will be known, touched, encountered and loved and welcomed and celebrated.

01;03;03;12 - 01;03;15;03
Joshua Hoffert
And, you know, that's seems to me that that's the the ultimate destination anyway, is that we would fully love and be fully loved. So,

01;03;15;05 - 01;03;17;17
Andrew Miller
What we have. So. Yeah. Which, yeah.

01;03;17;18 - 01;03;19;20
Andrew Miller
Oh, gosh, we could go on forever.

01;03;19;20 - 01;03;21;28
Andrew Miller
But, I mean, you think about.

01;03;21;28 - 01;03;22;08
Andrew Miller
These.

01;03;22;08 - 01;03;24;24
Andrew Miller
Do you feed.

01;03;24;24 - 01;03;30;10
Andrew Miller
These doctrines through that filter? Like, how about forgiveness, right.

01;03;30;13 - 01;03;31;00
Andrew Miller
Yeah.

01;03;31;02 - 01;03;40;07
Andrew Miller
See, like, why is it that God makes our forgiveness contingent upon us clearing our hearts with a forgiving.

01;03;40;10 - 01;03;40;26
Andrew Miller
Right.

01;03;41;03 - 01;03;53;24
Andrew Miller
And release? Yeah, there's I believe it's because. I believe it's because. Yeah, exactly. It it it occupies space in our heart that then he can't commune with.

01;03;53;26 - 01;03;54;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;03;54;22 - 01;03;55;20
Andrew Miller


01;03;55;23 - 01;03;58;07
Andrew Miller
And he wants all of our hearts. Really. And he wants.

01;03;58;07 - 01;04;07;23
Murray Dueck
Brilliant way to look at that verse. Yeah, absolutely. If you don't, there's an aspect of your being behind a wall.

01;04;07;25 - 01;04;09;08
Andrew Miller
Yeah. But that's another.

01;04;09;08 - 01;04;10;19
Murray Dueck
Whole point.

01;04;10;21 - 01;04;11;07
Andrew Miller
Of.

01;04;11;09 - 01;04;11;26
Andrew Miller
That.

01;04;11;26 - 01;04;17;21
Andrew Miller
And or or questions like, oh yeah, we've got.

01;04;17;23 - 01;04;19;18
Andrew Miller
We can have fun with us.

01;04;19;19 - 01;04;21;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. We need about three more. I mean I.

01;04;21;28 - 01;04;28;29
Murray Dueck
I got it. Yeah. Unfortunately I, I have to run into another meeting but I mean it's like.

01;04;29;02 - 01;04;31;14
Andrew Miller
Officially this is the longest story that I.

01;04;31;14 - 01;04;35;04
Joshua Hoffert
Officially this is the longest podcast we've done, by the way.

01;04;35;09 - 01;04;37;28
Andrew Miller
Yeah, yeah. Oh, my brain is like.

01;04;37;29 - 01;04;39;15
Andrew Miller
Glad I'm enjoying you guys.

01;04;39;15 - 01;04;43;17
Andrew Miller
Yeah I0I said I've got to but I would.

01;04;43;17 - 01;04;46;01
Andrew Miller
I wouldn't have stayed on if I wasn't enjoying you.

01;04;46;02 - 01;05;07;14
Andrew Miller
Oh I found a four minute window and a couple. Well, not in case I sleep. And that case I need to go. But yes. Yeah, yeah. Oh, well, thanks. Do share. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Well, it's been it's it's been great.

01;05;07;16 - 01;05;09;22
Joshua Hoffert
You have any final thoughts before we,

01;05;09;25 - 01;05;32;02
Murray Dueck
No, I, I just thank you. I mean, I'm just thinking on. But I always like to listen on behalf of a listener who's listening. Right. How are they? You know, how are they being drawn? And how is this touching them? And I just think, Father Andrew, the way that you've, described your journey and just walking this deeper and deeper and deeper is giving people access to go the same path.

01;05;32;04 - 01;05;48;00
Murray Dueck
And I just really thank you for that, you know, with your sense of. That's right. And, and real and at the same time applying things in a deep way. So I just thank you so much. You know, I it gets you. And then how do we find out how can we send people to heart sink. How do maybe that would be a good final thought if you.

01;05;48;00 - 01;05;50;25
Murray Dueck
Oh yeah. Give us some ways to send people that way. Yeah.

01;05;50;25 - 01;06;21;00
Andrew Miller
We have a great, platform. It's, heart sink healing.org. There are all kinds of freebies on there. We have a free and wonderful. We have, our some of our different leaders are doing, leading divine encounters where you're actually going through the process and, and, you know, encountering this, these different aspects of your heart and,

01;06;21;02 - 01;06;26;08
Andrew Miller
Oh, that's wonderful. And then, of course, it, you know, then it can lead to other things if you want.

01;06;26;08 - 01;06;26;29
Andrew Miller
To.

01;06;27;01 - 01;06;33;24
Andrew Miller
Get further training and further understanding and heart sink healing. Dot org.

01;06;33;25 - 01;06;37;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. There we go. We'll link that in the description as well.

01;06;37;28 - 01;06;38;10
Andrew Miller
Oh that's.

01;06;38;10 - 01;06;39;04
Murray Dueck
Wonderful. Thank you.

01;06;39;04 - 01;06;40;17
Andrew Miller
Jesus. Yeah okay.

01;06;40;21 - 01;06;54;26
Joshua Hoffert
Father Andrew, thank you so much for, for coming on. Would you do us a favor and would you close our episode with a priestly blessing over the listeners?

01;06;54;29 - 01;07;34;28
Andrew Miller
Absolutely. You know, I know you guys probably know this, but, the most priestly blessing of all was. Was that a direct quote from God? This this is how I want you to bless the people. But in that blessing, the number six blessing, he, he blesses them with, the blessing is that the light of his countenance and his glory would be on our faces.

01;07;35;00 - 01;07;35;20
Andrew Miller
We were.

01;07;35;20 - 01;07;38;09
Andrew Miller
Created to look into him.

01;07;38;11 - 01;07;39;21
Andrew Miller
So, just so good.

01;07;39;23 - 01;08;09;04
Andrew Miller
Love for you guys. And whoever's listening to just drink that in as as we do this. And so I do just. Lord, we come before you with thanksgiving. We're so thankful for your great sacrifice that you've made the way and that Holy Spirit, you have come to dwell in our hearts by which we cry. Arbor.

01;08;09;07 - 01;08;14;27
Andrew Miller
Amen. Papa, father.

01;08;14;29 - 01;08;21;22
Andrew Miller
And now to all of you. May the Lord bless you.

01;08;21;24 - 01;08;26;17
Andrew Miller
And that may he bless every aspect of your heart.

01;08;26;19 - 01;08;28;26
Andrew Miller
Amen.

01;08;28;28 - 01;08;33;08
Andrew Miller
May the Lord keep you.

01;08;33;10 - 01;08;55;15
Andrew Miller
May you. May he enfold you and bring you in under his wings. May the Lord lift up his countenance. The glory of his countenance, of his faith upon you.

01;08;55;18 - 01;09;01;22
Andrew Miller


01;09;01;24 - 01;09;07;02
Andrew Miller
Lord, as you do those things.

01;09;07;05 - 01;09;29;15
Andrew Miller
That we just receive and drink, your grace, your gracious. Thank you that you've been so gracious to, And that, Lord, that you would keep each and every one of us in your peace.

01;09;29;17 - 01;09;30;23
Andrew Miller
Yes.

01;09;30;26 - 01;09;32;21
Andrew Miller
Amen.

01;09;32;23 - 01;09;40;29
Andrew Miller
Amen. Amen and amen. Thank you guys. Yeah.

01;09;41;01 - 01;09;52;08
Joshua Hoffert
Thank you, Father Andrew, for your time and, just pouring yourself out there your whole life out. Thank you so much for spending time with us. But thank you so much for just being faithful.

01;09;52;08 - 01;09;54;14
Andrew Miller
Came out.

01;09;54;16 - 01;10;00;12
Andrew Miller
And thank you. I greatly appreciate what you do. And and I've I've really enjoyed. Yeah.

01;10;00;12 - 01;10;01;21
Joshua Hoffert
We've had a wonderful time.

01;10;01;22 - 01;10;02;21
Murray Dueck
Wonderful. Thank you.

01;10;02;26 - 01;10;16;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. Yeah. So we're going to say, Pastor Lavis to everybody. Thanks for tuning in. And we hope that this episode greatly enriched you and that you're leaving, just as touched with the piece of the father's.

01;10;16;16 - 01;10;18;17
Andrew Miller
Heart that we are. Yeah. Yeah.

01;10;18;21 - 01;10;21;12
Joshua Hoffert
So until next time, everybody.

01;10;21;14 - 01;10;25;27
Andrew Miller
God bless.

01;10;25;29 - 01;10;26;05
Andrew Miller
And.