Keeping in check and pleasing God, a look at Rule 8 Artwork

Voices from the Desert

In the early days of Christianity, men and women fled to the desert and became the wisest sages of their era. Voices from the Desert explores how the wisdom of Ancient Christianity applies to our modern world. Where do the streams of historic Christianity intersect with contemporary Christianity? And how do we come to know God deep in our heart? Join Joshua Hoffert and Murray Dueck for a deep dive into the mystics, union with God, patristic theology and what it all means in our modern world.

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Voices from the Desert

Keeping in check and pleasing God, a look at Rule 8

August 15, 2025 • Joshua Hoffert and Murray Dueck

Join Josh and Murr as they dive into Rule 8 of the Communion with Jesus Daily Agenda: Get Purified and Keep in Check. They boys explore watchfulness of heart, preparation, and living from the inner man.

For more about Voices from the Desert, visit our Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/VoicesfromtheDesert

For more about Goosechase Monastery, visit: https://www.goosechasemonastery.ca/index.html

00;00;17;19 - 00;00;35;04
Murray Dueck
Well, now I pretend it's it's I'm done. I I'm finished. No, that's your beginning. Is now you love Christ. No. Well, well, that's legalism. Oh, yeah. That's like now. Now you're going to make me do stuff. No, because you're in love with somebody and it messed up. And you can't help but admire and want to be with them.

00;00;35;07 - 00;01;00;14
Murray Dueck
You want to do whatever it takes to just be in their presence of love. So therefore you do it based on a love relationship, not based on law, based on the love relationship all. And you can't always admire. Not to be without based on the love relationship all.

00;01;00;17 - 00;01;14;29
Joshua Hoffert
Welcome everybody to another episode of voices from the desert. Desert. Desert. Oh. Oh.

00;01;15;01 - 00;01;19;05
Murray Dueck
And he's muted out today.

00;01;19;08 - 00;01;24;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. Well, you know, we're in mourning today because the Bible said blessed for those who mourn.

00;01;25;01 - 00;01;25;17
Murray Dueck
There we go.

00;01;25;23 - 00;01;26;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;01;26;08 - 00;01;31;17
Murray Dueck
So maybe it's because we're going to talk a little bit of silence. Just a little bit. It's going to come up in minutes.

00;01;31;24 - 00;01;32;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;01;32;05 - 00;01;33;14
Murray Dueck
More of a silent howl.

00;01;33;18 - 00;01;36;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. Well, everybody, welcome.

00;01;36;13 - 00;01;38;00
Murray Dueck
We will come in.

00;01;38;01 - 00;01;39;28
Joshua Hoffert
Bienvenido will come in. Come on.

00;01;39;28 - 00;01;42;20
Murray Dueck
In. Yes.

00;01;42;23 - 00;02;17;14
Joshua Hoffert
If you're new to voices from the desert, this is what we do. We talk about. Yeah. We have like that. Yeah. That's right. That's right. This podcast is all about having conversations about navigating the intricacies of the inner life. And, we like having conversations with people with each other. We explore the teachings of ancient Christianity, the mystics, the Desert Fathers, desert mothers, and how that has implications to our lives today and what we can learn from, you know, not just the ancients, because, there's moderns that talk like the ancients.

00;02;17;14 - 00;02;27;17
Joshua Hoffert
We've been married. I've been chatting about, Dallas Willard for a while, and, yeah, he he talked like an ancient and, the walk.

00;02;27;18 - 00;02;28;11
Murray Dueck
Like an Egyptian.

00;02;28;14 - 00;02;46;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, walk like an Egyptian. And, and I'm thinking, I think a couple times in this series we've referenced, so on the ather night, you know, we were talking about, the god hides himself in order to reveal what's hidden in the heart of man. Right where we talk about him, I think in the last episode.

00;02;46;15 - 00;03;12;04
Joshua Hoffert
And. And he's not an ancient he. I think he died in, like, 1973 or something like that. So, you know, so we reference modern people, but that's because they sound like what we found in the writings of the ancient Christians. And they had profound wisdom on navigating, the things that we wrestle with when it comes to the journey of knowing God and knowing ourselves, like Augustine prayed, Lord, teach me to know myself, that I might know you.

00;03;12;06 - 00;03;16;22
Joshua Hoffert
And, that's what we do here. So we try to anyway, you know, try.

00;03;16;22 - 00;03;17;09
Murray Dueck
To do.

00;03;17;12 - 00;03;44;24
Joshua Hoffert
Better. Well, sometimes. And, and we actually we have a Patreon for those of you that are interested in going a little deeper in the, in what we do. The Patreon has exclusive access to, conversations that marine I have before, the podcast talking about, you know, what we're wrestling with and the things we're thinking about and, all that and, we address questions from people, all that kind of stuff.

00;03;44;24 - 00;03;45;25
Joshua Hoffert
So you can check out the Patreon.

00;03;45;28 - 00;03;48;00
Murray Dueck
Yeah, we had a good hour chat about.

00;03;48;00 - 00;03;49;20
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, yeah, Dallas Willard.

00;03;49;23 - 00;04;05;14
Murray Dueck
Fence lines, belief systems, slow drive, fast track change, how we kick the ball around pretty good here. So but and you know, let's all just record it. Nobody's going to put it up there for you Patreon listeners that yeah you want and it's only five bucks. You know if you want to donate more we'd appreciate that.

00;04;05;14 - 00;04;09;02
Joshua Hoffert
But so I think it's 789 or 69 or something like that.

00;04;09;02 - 00;04;10;06
Murray Dueck
Or we can in America.

00;04;10;10 - 00;04;16;10
Joshua Hoffert
Close to five. Yeah, five bucks in America. And that's right. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Number I think. Yeah.

00;04;16;12 - 00;04;35;06
Murray Dueck
You can go anyway. We'd appreciate that guys. So there you go. There you go. I think that was good today. We had, had a good chat about, spiritual formation in regards to Ellis Willard and, you know, maybe mention again, without going in any detail that that audio set or the. Is it YouTube that.

00;04;35;09 - 00;04;35;13
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;04;35;13 - 00;05;10;13
Joshua Hoffert
There's, we were talking about it. There's, Dallas. Well, just a preface to the Dallas Willard is one of the, one of the the figures that, predates us. You know, he died a couple of years ago. Maybe just before Covid, I think 2019, maybe 2020, something like that. And he was in part responsible for the resurgence of interest in any form of Christian mysticism, and contemplative prayer, that kind of stuff.

00;05;10;13 - 00;05;18;11
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And, and then you can go to he and Richard Foster were quite influential in that, but there were people before them that were started.

00;05;18;13 - 00;05;20;07
Murray Dueck
Oh, sure. I mean Tozer I.

00;05;20;10 - 00;05;29;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, exactly. So there but but he was a mainline author, well-known, taught at Dallas Theological Seminary.

00;05;29;11 - 00;05;30;10
Murray Dueck
Which is shocking.

00;05;30;12 - 00;05;55;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I'm pretty sure he taught there, actually, I should probably double check that. Maybe. I just think that because his name is Dallas. And he lived and, I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure he. But he was a very well-respected, theologian and philosopher in his own right. So we were talking a lot about him, and he's got a lot of fantastic things to say about spiritual formation in the spiritual life.

00;05;55;15 - 00;06;22;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And just so people know, too, like we we do, you know, we've been going through this, this document called the Ten Rules for the Spiritual Life put out by the monastery of the, goose Chase Monastery in Nova Scotia, the Hermitage of the Annunciation. Father Luke is the abbot there? I've, met him and developed an, friendship and a fondness for him and the the monks living there under his charge.

00;06;22;07 - 00;06;43;04
Joshua Hoffert
So if you get a chance to check that out, I'll. I'll be putting the link to their website, in the shown in the show description, and they have paraphernalia you can buy. And I actually think you could probably get a of it. You could probably get Ahold of this document. By contacting them. So small monastery.

00;06;43;04 - 00;06;49;26
Joshua Hoffert
But it's a wonderful place. So. But what we find in someone like Dallas Willard is that he says similar things.

00;06;49;29 - 00;06;50;28
Murray Dueck
It's interesting.

00;06;51;00 - 00;07;17;23
Joshua Hoffert
And, and so we've been going through this and so that people know, you know, Marie and I are, we're we're influenced by a wide variety of people, and sometimes we're referencing Orthodox guys, sometimes we're referencing Catholic guys, sometimes we're referencing evangelical guys, sometimes we just. So we're just like, you know, we're like sponges trying to learn and grow and, become like Jesus.

00;07;17;26 - 00;07;18;11
Joshua Hoffert
So, you know.

00;07;18;17 - 00;07;30;20
Murray Dueck
One of my favorite, I can't remember the guy's name, the the guy that was in Seattle, when the spirit of God came. Episcopalian guy, you know,

00;07;30;22 - 00;07;32;17
Joshua Hoffert
Jerry Tambo, John Rodham, John Rodham.

00;07;32;17 - 00;07;40;29
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So John Rodham is this, you know, older Episcopalian guy, retired now. Yeah. And he came in and did a thing at the Khmer Christian ministry, too, so.

00;07;41;02 - 00;07;42;10
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's right.

00;07;42;15 - 00;07;47;24
Murray Dueck
And it's a charismatic, you know, kind of independent, charismatic, you know, you'll see everything.

00;07;47;26 - 00;07;50;23
Joshua Hoffert
In 2016, something like that, right. Yeah. Yeah.

00;07;50;24 - 00;07;52;09
Murray Dueck
You know, to, you know, independent kind of.

00;07;52;11 - 00;07;54;13
Joshua Hoffert
2015 I think. Yeah I was yeah.

00;07;54;15 - 00;08;11;22
Murray Dueck
So he's he's talking away and he's quoting like mother Teresa and you know Teresa of Avila. And then suddenly God's only he goes and Benny Hinn would say on the Holy Spirit I'm like, wow, this guy is like, yeah, I remember my head snapped up like, well, how can you drink from all these wells, you know, and, and put it together?

00;08;11;22 - 00;08;11;27
Murray Dueck
And,

00;08;12;03 - 00;08;12;29
Joshua Hoffert
Are you allowed to do.

00;08;12;29 - 00;08;30;01
Murray Dueck
That? I know, that's what I thought. Wait a minute. I looked around and like, who's anybody gonna let this guy get away with this? Like, what's happening here? And. Yeah. And, and it was just brilliant to see somebody who, you know, already, he was in his 70s and just be able to find the fingerprints of God.

00;08;30;06 - 00;08;30;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;08;30;27 - 00;08;32;00
Murray Dueck
All over the place.

00;08;32;00 - 00;08;32;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;08;32;18 - 00;08;51;27
Murray Dueck
And. And I knew Josh and I are a little bit like, you know, I think we have taken some inspiration and, that we're like, two guys wearing our our, Sherlock Holmes hats with. That's right. With our little pipes and magnifying glasses going. Indubitably. There's a fingerprint of God here. Look at that. That's God's fingerprint.

00;08;51;29 - 00;08;53;20
Joshua Hoffert
When I was, when I looked up.

00;08;53;21 - 00;08;54;24
Murray Dueck
And spit out the bones.

00;08;54;25 - 00;09;25;12
Joshua Hoffert
Well, when I live, don't spy. When I lived on P.E.I., we would go visit John occasionally, and, he would send me home with a book or two or a pamphlet from some of the great revivalists in the 20th century, you know, or the or the, oh. You know, the, I'm trying to think of some of the classic authors, I got I have a, I have a book back there that has like a compilation of essays from them.

00;09;25;12 - 00;09;40;18
Joshua Hoffert
I just can't think of the names offhand, but they're not. They would not be the typical person you would think an Anglican or a Catholic person would give you a book and say, yeah, you know, read this. They're a, you know, Abe Simpson and guys like that, you know.

00;09;40;20 - 00;09;43;08
Murray Dueck
Yeah. No kidding. You'd be. Yeah. What what are you.

00;09;43;11 - 00;09;58;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, some of the Reformation guys and the revival guys, that kind of stuff. And you're like. So anyway, he had a way of why he has a way of walking, and he still does. He's not he's he's around with us and he's Catholic now. Okay. So the Anglican Church in Canada didn't really have a place for him.

00;09;58;15 - 00;09;59;13
Joshua Hoffert
So.

00;09;59;15 - 00;10;01;18
Murray Dueck
Yeah. No. Yeah. The Catholic. Okay.

00;10;01;19 - 00;10;20;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. We'll take. Yeah, we'll take it. Crazy guy. We like them. So, so, yeah, we we like, we like kind of bridging the gaps that exist between all of those various, camps and say, hey, come over here and learn from these guys, and we'll go over there and learn from these guys and stuff like that. So.

00;10;20;13 - 00;10;22;28
Murray Dueck
So looking for Jesus in all the right places. Okay.

00;10;22;28 - 00;10;45;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. So we are so we're going through this document last week we talked about rules six and seven. And again these are less they we don't we don't rules is that is the kind of language that they would use in a monastery. What we really mean by that. And when I think Father Luke would mean by that would be Guideposts that help point you in the direction.

00;10;46;05 - 00;10;47;13
Murray Dueck
Or even principles, maybe.

00;10;47;14 - 00;10;49;28
Joshua Hoffert
Principles. Yeah. Things are even like.

00;10;49;28 - 00;10;51;22
Murray Dueck
When you think rules, it's like.

00;10;51;24 - 00;10;53;04
Joshua Hoffert
Well, what do we say.

00;10;53;06 - 00;10;56;02
Murray Dueck
To stick, you know, how will you interpret that word?

00;10;56;04 - 00;11;06;20
Joshua Hoffert
Last week we were talking about that, right. The bumper of the the bumpers of the bowling lane. Right. They help the ball. They help the ball get down. You know, because we're so bad at.

00;11;06;22 - 00;11;09;12
Murray Dueck
Actual high school, you're always so much better when the bumpers.

00;11;09;12 - 00;11;10;13
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. Yeah.

00;11;10;15 - 00;11;11;25
Murray Dueck
Yeah. My walk with God.

00;11;12;01 - 00;11;18;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Well, you're a you're probably a five pin bowler and I'm a ten pin bowler. So you grew up in Canada? I grew up in America, so.

00;11;18;26 - 00;11;19;13
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;11;19;15 - 00;11;31;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, we'll have to have a debate one time about which one's best. So we we, Yeah. Okay. Well, there we go. All right. Maybe the debate won't last very long. So, Yeah.

00;11;31;15 - 00;11;32;08
Murray Dueck
You know, there's there's a.

00;11;32;08 - 00;11;56;20
Joshua Hoffert
Place for the five pin people. We love you, everyone. We we went through rule six and seven last week, which was except to remain in darkness and confusion and be thankful all the time. And, we're loving how all of these things dovetail in together. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. And, and so rule eight, and then I'll get to the Dallas Willard quote, because that'll frame much what recession is.

00;11;56;23 - 00;12;25;09
Joshua Hoffert
Rule eight is get purified and keep in check. Right. And, and again, Guideposts, bumper lanes, so that the sub points of this point eight get purified and keep in check or this is preparation, repentance and purification. Don't seek to please men or yourself. Seek only to please God. That is, live the gospel, examine your heart and go regularly to confession.

00;12;25;11 - 00;12;41;23
Joshua Hoffert
So joy. So you know what's interesting is get purified. You know, in a way, we're actually we're we're planning on doing a series on, we were just talking about it on, the, the Beatitudes. Right. The pure blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Yeah.

00;12;41;23 - 00;12;43;26
Murray Dueck
Well, yeah. Exactly. That's where I'm going. You.

00;12;43;28 - 00;13;10;20
Joshua Hoffert
You're the the the the beatitudes present, you know, way steps to get there. And, and each one dovetails much like these ten rules, although there's, I think there's 12 beatitudes as there was at nine. I can't remember offhand. I'd have to look at it again. But get purified and keep in check. It's interesting, I think, that the, the sub point of it is seek to please God.

00;13;10;27 - 00;13;36;29
Joshua Hoffert
So purity doesn't come because you establish rules for purity. Purity comes because you've begun to see something different outside of yourself. And that's a little bit of what we're going to talk about. And, the quote that Marie has in has, in mind that we were talking earlier before we started recording the podcast and, I had quoted this from Dallas Willard.

00;13;36;29 - 00;13;58;03
Joshua Hoffert
One of the things that I found, impactful from Willard's teaching was, the disciplines are something you do in your own effort that enable you to do things you're unable to do in your own effort. So the disciplines or the disciplines we got into and the phone's ringing?

00;13;58;03 - 00;14;00;08
Murray Dueck
Yeah, my phone's ringing. It's rocking out.

00;14;00;10 - 00;14;08;05
Joshua Hoffert
The disciplines are something you do in your own effort that enable you to do things you are unable to do by your own effort.

00;14;08;08 - 00;14;20;27
Murray Dueck
Such a quote I think you probably have to. Everybody breathe right now. Breathe. And then say it again because it's it's it's it's deceptively deep. It's worth hearing it again.

00;14;21;00 - 00;14;41;23
Joshua Hoffert
The first thing to say about something like that too, is that when we talk about things like spiritual disciplines, I like calling them rhythms more than blends. But whatever you want to say is what happens when people start to think about them and the culture based on the culture they grew up into, you know, fasting, solitude, silence.

00;14;41;23 - 00;15;08;02
Joshua Hoffert
And here, here we have confession, repentance, things like that. Right? We start thinking of them as an end unto themselves and rules that we must fulfill. We're supposed to fast, and fasting is the end, because that's the rule that we're supposed to fulfill. Right? But again, there's that's what was having them thinking of them as Guideposts and, and and signposts along the way that help go.

00;15;08;02 - 00;15;20;01
Joshua Hoffert
No, this is the direction. They're not the end. They're simply a means to live your life in a way that create basically the disciplines create space for God to move within you.

00;15;20;04 - 00;15;21;07
Murray Dueck
Oh, that's a good way to say it.

00;15;21;07 - 00;15;45;00
Joshua Hoffert
And and so that's, you know, just restating what Willard said. Is there things you do in your own effort? I can take in my own effort, I can go into a room where it's silent and and sit in that silence in solitude. Right. That's my own effort. But what it enables me to do is to become the kind of person who, when I get struck, as Jesus said, my, I turn the other cheek.

00;15;45;04 - 00;16;10;18
Joshua Hoffert
It's not a thing I do. It's a person I become. And, and so when it comes to, all of these, these rules for the spiritual life, they're again, they're not rules that you try and fulfill, and they're a manner of living that helps give expression to what it looks like when Jesus is living within you. And so rule eight get purified and keep in check if you think about it.

00;16;10;18 - 00;16;34;05
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Our our if our all of our previous other rules have led us to that point. Okay. So seek self renunciation, accept to have no results. There are a lot of our mindsets, right? Labor with endurance and prayer. Accept to remain dry trust to accept to remain in darkness or confusion. Be thankful all the time. So get purified.

00;16;34;08 - 00;16;55;11
Joshua Hoffert
Only happens because you've walked through these kind of things and you're starting to see, my goodness, there's stuff inside of me that I got to get rid of. So how do I get rid of that? Well, in in the and maybe we can start on I, I'm curious what your thoughts are on this Marie because one of the get purified and keep in check right.

00;16;55;11 - 00;17;33;08
Joshua Hoffert
Examine yourself and go regularly to confession. Well, we both grew up in, a church dynamic that did not regularly practice a formal time of confession. Yeah, right. And, and some people, maybe they're listening, went they grew up in a, more formal expression of that. Right. And and to the rules here, there in the Orthodox Church would be a bit more of a formal expression of that then, in the evangelical church, not so much like the Catholic Church, where you go and sit in the thing and then tell the priest all your problems.

00;17;33;11 - 00;17;54;23
Joshua Hoffert
But there would be right within the liturgy you're expressing, you know, we acknowledge all the things that we've done and left undone. Right. There's the prayer of humble access. I think it's called, but there ought to be an expectation of confession happening. One person to a priest in the Orthodox Church, to which is where these rules would come from.

00;17;54;25 - 00;18;04;20
Joshua Hoffert
And, but I find what I find interesting with that is, you know, have you ever heard this phrase. Oh, it was just so helpful to get that off my chest.

00;18;04;20 - 00;18;06;22
Murray Dueck
Yes, yes, yes, I was going to go there, too.

00;18;06;27 - 00;18;28;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And, and so when, we'll have this dinner, you and I will have this dynamic, right? When we're wrestling with stuff and where we have the day that we're going to record, we spend an hour talking about our problems. Right? We're. And we don't feel better. Right? Because we just. Oh, Murray, listen to me. He heard me express his appreciation for me and his affection for me.

00;18;28;05 - 00;18;30;10
Joshua Hoffert
Right? And we're like, oh, I feel love.

00;18;30;13 - 00;18;31;10
Murray Dueck
What do you think happened?

00;18;31;10 - 00;19;04;19
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, look, sorry. I think how I feel loved in spite of my struggle. And it helps me to overcome the things that seem insurmountable because I see someone else who loves me, who cares for me. And, and so, in a way, we stumble into confession because we it's not planned for. And I'm not saying planning for it is necessarily the best step anyway, but at least, at least in certain traditions within the, within Christianity, there's planned confession, you know, so I think that could be helpful.

00;19;04;19 - 00;19;17;05
Joshua Hoffert
But what I find interesting, and this is what I'm, leading to, is the the, the, the inner healing movement today.

00;19;17;07 - 00;19;17;29
Murray Dueck

00;19;18;02 - 00;19;27;11
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Which is, I think probably largely in response to a.

00;19;27;11 - 00;19;29;21
Murray Dueck
Lack of.

00;19;29;23 - 00;19;32;29
Joshua Hoffert
Good foundational understanding of confession.

00;19;33;01 - 00;19;33;29
Murray Dueck
Oh, I totally agree.

00;19;34;05 - 00;19;55;24
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And so the inner healing movement is less it's, it's more it I mean, I'm sure there's I like you know, we have we have a podcast episode coming out at some point with Father Andrew, who's an Anglican bishop. So I can't say that, the inner healing movement is, and he's he's talks all about inner healing.

00;19;55;26 - 00;20;19;16
Joshua Hoffert
You can't say inner healing is exclusively in the evangelical church, right? You know, but the all of the ministries I know that practice it in the way that we are understanding are, largely even evangelical with a charismatic bent to them as well. Right. Because there's a value for encountering God and his personal immanent presence in someone's life, and that he would speak and lead and guide and all that.

00;20;19;18 - 00;20;27;06
Joshua Hoffert
So he when you when you have a theological system that says, repent and hold on and wait until the end, you don't really have an inner healing thing, have a.

00;20;27;06 - 00;20;29;00
Murray Dueck
Very bad view of what confession is.

00;20;29;00 - 00;20;30;15
Joshua Hoffert
Do not matter. Yeah, exactly.

00;20;30;15 - 00;20;33;20
Murray Dueck
So based on legalism, judgment and self-will.

00;20;33;23 - 00;20;51;10
Joshua Hoffert
So we will go through the Reformation, right? Influenced by Lutheran Calvin. And repentance is kind of a, a private can, a private moment where you confess your sins to God and then you get baptized, and then you hold on until the end. There's really no value for confession.

00;20;51;10 - 00;20;53;18
Murray Dueck
That just, you know, let's. Oh, sorry.

00;20;53;21 - 00;21;18;06
Joshua Hoffert
Well, I'm just saying it. Wait. I think there was there was about a 2 to 300 year period in the evangelical church where in the image local church where it waned and waned and waned and waned. And I see this conjecture, really, it's not something I've studied extensively. I'm just kind of speaking on observation. And now we have this resurgence in inner healing, which is essentially, going, hey, tell me your problems, and we're going to present them to God.

00;21;18;06 - 00;21;23;17
Joshua Hoffert
I'm going to pray for you. And then he's going to accept you and you're going to find his love again, right? It's like, oh, it's confession again.

00;21;23;25 - 00;21;25;12
Murray Dueck
It is. It's like repackaged.

00;21;25;19 - 00;21;31;15
Joshua Hoffert
Different forms and functions and all that. But that's essentially what it is. So.

00;21;31;17 - 00;21;38;24
Murray Dueck
Well, you know, it's just as a side note here that might be from too much caffeine and, and

00;21;38;27 - 00;21;39;15
Joshua Hoffert
There's no such.

00;21;39;17 - 00;21;53;23
Murray Dueck
Thing over there. You know, I, I again everybody confession. You have to just think about that. You know, what is purity of heart? What is confession like? Let's just just go there. Why do we need that? And yeah.

00;21;53;24 - 00;21;54;08
Joshua Hoffert
Sure.

00;21;54;10 - 00;22;17;00
Murray Dueck
That takes us back to Dallas Willard's quote there. Right. That that these disciplines, they, you know, why do we why do we need them and and it's it's to bring healing to the heart. Healing. Right. It's not about again, you. When the Pharisees say to Jesus, look at him, eat with sinners and tax collectors, they're thinking of it in an illegal way.

00;22;17;02 - 00;22;40;01
Murray Dueck
And, you know, Jesus's response is, A doctor doesn't come for the healthy, come through the sick, right? He's thinking it in that way. And the problem is, if you think of confession as well, this is a legal thing. So and or you know, I think we get down on the Catholics for that. And since we need to have a Catholic mind because we beat on those guys too much, or at least or maybe we give too much slack, I'm not quite sure, because we just don't know.

00;22;40;03 - 00;22;56;26
Murray Dueck
We talked to the Orthodox guys quite a bit, but so the the idea behind confession is how we see inner healing, right? Is that and as I said, man, I'm so glad to get that off my chest. Like, like confess your sins to one another and you'll be healed. I mean, it's pretty scripture, all right, isn't it, James?

00;22;56;26 - 00;23;21;09
Murray Dueck
I you know, where is that? I think that's a James. Right. So the idea is that the priest, if we want to go back to that culture, his job should be the doctor of your soul. He should be there wanting to see you become like like Christ. Right. And, and so, you know, when I work with people, I do a lot of inner healing.

00;23;21;11 - 00;23;45;01
Murray Dueck
You eventually see patterns that they don't see themselves right then, like, I can think of one couple right now that her husband is always wrong. Always. She's like, I'm telling him if he doesn't straighten up, I would a divorce that guy. I'm like, well, I know from being around them, he compliments her all the time and she can't hear it.

00;23;45;03 - 00;24;14;13
Murray Dueck
He never compliments me. Okay, now, as a doctor of their soul, there's a wounding issue from her childhood, from her upbringing, but it's also pouring into their marriage. So there's a couple different things going on. So how how are you going to bring healing there? So I'll give you I'll give you an example and, and and why this belief system is so important when it says purify yourself right.

00;24;14;16 - 00;24;29;27
Murray Dueck
You know, we're talking about setting your soul up for healing. So let me give you an eye. We just have to look at the judicial versus healing thing here quickly. Sure. Because when you hear the word confession it's easy to go, okay, I better do this. And then a priest is going to punish me and then, that.

00;24;29;29 - 00;24;49;17
Murray Dueck
Okay, so back when I was working, the street kids, I had these two people that became home group leaders. Quick version one, whose dad had a sex change this gal, right? And took her a long time to see it. But as you can imagine, she did not know what a father's love or even any what, what what a confidence male would look like at all.

00;24;49;19 - 00;25;09;01
Murray Dueck
No. And the other guy, was a whole group leader, and he was an enforcer in junior hockey. So when you needed somebody beat up, you sent him on the ice. Tough, tough guy, right? And they both became home group leaders and they started dating. And I'm like, this is going to be a disaster because I didn't need a prophetic word.

00;25;09;07 - 00;25;26;21
Murray Dueck
She needed a strong, confident guy. A she picks him up and he needs to be the knight in shining armor to rescue somebody. He picks her and you could just see, oh my goodness. Everybody's dysfunction here is like woo. And then of course if they break up their whole groups are going to both hate each other. I look like a disaster now.

00;25;26;21 - 00;25;45;13
Murray Dueck
I could have been legalistic. I could have said, we'll call him Fred. His name wasn't right. But Fred, you are not permitted to date her. Sure, right. I could have just thrown the pastor card legal. This is how this is going to work. How does that heal his soul? Yeah. It doesn't. There's all this dysfunction in there, right?

00;25;45;13 - 00;26;06;07
Murray Dueck
And besides, he would have done it despite me. Because I know this guy and you know, he's turned out pretty good. Just so you know. So I'm like, okay, I need somehow in this situation to see his purification of soul and confession. Two points we're talking about here. How as I, as a leader, am I going to see his soul healed and hurt, right?

00;26;06;10 - 00;26;23;15
Murray Dueck
Without being a legalist? So what I did, and this wasn't my idea, it's brilliant. But I got it from somebody. Just so you know, there's my confession. I wrote a letter to him, and I mailed it to myself, and I put it in my desk drawer, and I mailed it because the post office puts a date stamp on it, right, right, right, right.

00;26;23;22 - 00;26;37;20
Murray Dueck
And it said, you're going to break up. And I could be wrong. I would have thrown in the trash, right? I was, but but I was pretty sure knowing both of them how this was going to go. Right. Here's what you're going. This is what's going to happen two months down the road. Here's why it's going to happen.

00;26;37;25 - 00;26;54;21
Murray Dueck
Here's what God is going to teach you. Here's what you're going to see about your own soul. Here's what you're going to learn about, you know, Barbara's brokenness again, name change. Protect innocent, right? I just wrote it all out and I put it in my drawer. Two months later, he comes into my office freaking out. Why that girl did this to me.

00;26;54;24 - 00;27;10;13
Murray Dueck
And I said, hey, I got a letter for you. Really? You're. It's got my name on it. Yeah. Why do you read it? So he opens it up, he falls down on it. His. He's weeping and repenting. Right. Because when I if I would have told him two months earlier, he couldn't hear it.

00;27;10;16 - 00;27;11;08
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;27;11;11 - 00;27;17;06
Murray Dueck
But you could hear it. Then why did I wait? Because it was about healing his soul for purity.

00;27;17;09 - 00;27;17;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;27;17;21 - 00;27;41;29
Murray Dueck
And confession was about helping him get healed. Yeah. Not putting law upon him. He couldn't live up to and wouldn't do it anyway. Modeling. God is a bully, right? And and so when we talk about purity and confession, we're talking about a dynamic form of healing. Now, now the problem, the reason I brought all that up is.

00;27;42;01 - 00;27;45;24
Murray Dueck
Let's just throw Mike Bickle under the bus, shall we? You know, like, because that's.

00;27;45;27 - 00;27;46;21
Joshua Hoffert
Easy to do.

00;27;46;21 - 00;27;59;21
Murray Dueck
So yeah. Because he, you know, so, you know, one of the big prophetic guys and, you know, Josh and I are in that culture or were are or were. Nah, we're going to be we got to go in there still.

00;27;59;28 - 00;28;01;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;28;01;13 - 00;28;06;08
Murray Dueck
And and so you know, you get 20 years.

00;28;06;10 - 00;28;09;20
Joshua Hoffert
We care about the people that are stuck in that culture that will say it that way.

00;28;09;22 - 00;28;25;06
Murray Dueck
You thank you for bailing me out there. But I it just it just must be said. Yeah. Because so basically he gets caught that 20 years ago he was basically having affairs with 18 year old girls, right.

00;28;25;08 - 00;28;26;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;28;26;05 - 00;28;36;26
Murray Dueck
I didn't sleep with them but did everything else. Peter. Right. And they asked him, well, why didn't you get help for this? Well, I thought it was just between me and Jesus that I talked to about it, and he forgave me, and it was over.

00;28;36;29 - 00;28;37;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;28;37;24 - 00;28;59;14
Murray Dueck
Right. Pretty much. Okay, well, let's just think about how is a doctor of his soul going to help him get healing if that's based on his own childhood brokenness, which his dad was a boxer and a pretty tough dude. And yeah, I can imagine it does it. So you you personalize your relationship behind your own belief systems that are broken.

00;28;59;17 - 00;29;18;10
Murray Dueck
You don't let anybody in thinking being by your free will that my will. I'm going to will myself better with all your wounding and bad belief systems. And then we wonder why our leaders fall into sin in evangelicalism, in the charismatic movement. Because there's no belief in confession and inner healing on a leadership level.

00;29;18;10 - 00;29;28;16
Joshua Hoffert
Because. Because Marie, salvation is salvation by faith alone is single handedly responsible for the downfall of Western society.

00;29;28;18 - 00;29;52;10
Murray Dueck
There you go. We're quoting an earlier episode, everybody. But that's the truth of it. And it's it's it's infuriating how many leaders in the charismatic culture in particular, but evangelicalism do fall into growth, moral sin, because they don't believe in confession. They don't believe in purity of heart because they think, well, that's law and religion. I just have to will of myself better.

00;29;52;12 - 00;30;17;24
Murray Dueck
It was never about will on religion. It was about healing you and restoring you and putting you back together in a loving relationship with father and bringing your brokenness into the light so you could be reestablished on a relationship. Follow the heart of God. And that's why purity of heart is important, and why having confession is important, and why this is number eight in the rule list.

00;30;17;26 - 00;30;35;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, well, it's one of the things people people struggle with it all the time because they can tell something's wrong, right? They can tells them there's hell. That's not my life's not working the way that it should. And I've been told the way it should work. And and my Christianity is not working the way that it should. I.

00;30;35;23 - 00;30;55;08
Joshua Hoffert
I've repented, I've prayed, I accepted Jesus. Why isn't it all getting better? Right? Because you're sold the full system that doesn't incorporate transformation. And because it was just a prayer and get out of hell, right? And yeah, that's an element of salvation, but that's not the totality of it. But it's sold as the totality of it.

00;30;55;08 - 00;31;13;27
Murray Dueck
Well, it's funny, it's Monty Python. Ever seen the Olympic race? They're all lined up on the starting line. You guys should watch it. And the. And the guy shoots the. It's the. It's, you know, maybe not politically correct anymore, but it's for that the Olympics for the retarded or something. I mean, I'm obviously mentally handicapped.

00;31;13;27 - 00;31;15;29
Joshua Hoffert
That's what was to say today.

00;31;16;01 - 00;31;28;02
Murray Dueck
Yeah. I think that's what it is. So they're lined up at old Murray? Yeah. The gun, the starting gun goes off. Yeah. You're right. Different directions. Like like Chad Haggerty. They're supposed to go that way.

00;31;28;04 - 00;31;28;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;31;28;26 - 00;31;42;10
Murray Dueck
The thing is, salvation. You get saved to run your race right and your race right with purpose. And instead, well, like. Well, now that I prayed the prayer, I can just basically freaking do whatever I want and go in any direction I want. And you're not working on anything.

00;31;42;13 - 00;31;42;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;31;42;20 - 00;32;02;11
Murray Dueck
Watch that video. That's what that's how it works. And we wonder why aren't people transforming here? Well, they're running the Monty Python stupid race because they're not working out their salvation at all. It's like, well, now I pray that prayer. It's I'm done. I I'm finished. No, that's your beginning. Because now you love Christ. Now. Well, well that's legalism.

00;32;02;14 - 00;32;22;15
Murray Dueck
Yeah. That's like now. Now you're going to make me do stuff. No, because you're in love with somebody and have met them. And you can't help but admire and want to be with them. You want to do whatever it takes to just be in their presence of love. So therefore you do it based on a love relationship, not based on law, which is where we go back to.

00;32;22;15 - 00;32;25;19
Murray Dueck
And but you know, everyone watch that video I we should post it some.

00;32;25;20 - 00;32;44;12
Joshua Hoffert
Well it it just going back to the Beatitudes and again we've got to talk about this more that the two beatitudes preceding blessed are the pure in heart are blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. And blessed are the merciful, right? Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled.

00;32;44;14 - 00;33;03;12
Joshua Hoffert
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God, right? So so there's a progression there, right? Yeah, yeah. Because the heart wants to see God. It desperately wants to see God. Yeah. Right. That's not it's that, you know, Paul talks about this in first Corinthians 13. Right. We're known where now we're no in part then we're going to be fully known, right.

00;33;03;12 - 00;33;24;27
Joshua Hoffert
With unveiled face will behold his glory, right? That's our destiny. That's the thing the human heart longs for is to see God, to know him and to be fully known. Right. And that's why we can tell things are wrong. Right? Because I can't see God. I see my own problems. I see my own sin. Right? There's, there's, I was just reading in Psalm, 67 today, I think.

00;33;24;27 - 00;33;45;17
Joshua Hoffert
And don't don't let iniquity be all that is occupied in my heart. Right. It says that in Psalm 66 or 67, whichever one I was reading this morning. And but that's the thing is, we want to behold purity in the heart. We want to behold God. We want to know him and be known by him. But the problem is we got all kinds of junk in there.

00;33;45;19 - 00;33;47;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Right. Yeah. And, you.

00;33;47;16 - 00;33;49;06
Murray Dueck
Know, but when we say.

00;33;49;08 - 00;34;10;03
Joshua Hoffert
Well, I'll just finish this, you know, blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy as I've started to recognize the tenderness of his heart, and it's impacting the tenderness of my heart. And now I have a hunger and thirst. I have a different appetite, right? A hunger, thirst for righteousness. And I'll be filled. And now I'm starting to acquire purity of heart.

00;34;10;03 - 00;34;25;03
Joshua Hoffert
Because I've got tenderness and I've got a new hunger. And now I've got purity. And now in purity I can see him because I've removed every false notion of what he is. But I don't than false notions remove, because I've seen his tenderness and I'm hungering for him. Right. And, and.

00;34;25;03 - 00;34;27;00
Murray Dueck
There's the journey right there that.

00;34;27;00 - 00;34;58;23
Joshua Hoffert
Creates the journey and and people. The thing is, people come to the point of it's not working. My heart isn't isn't right. I can't seem to break out of these patterns. And and they either have been sold a system of theology that's basically a lie. And it says everything will work if you say this prayer and then and then they blame that system and they go, well, it's not working for me.

00;34;58;23 - 00;35;08;08
Joshua Hoffert
And then you meet with them and you go, well, you know, like there may be some work that you need to put into this. And they go, well, I already said the prayer. Why do I need to do any work? Right?

00;35;08;14 - 00;35;11;09
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And matter of fact, I remember we're in this.

00;35;11;11 - 00;35;12;28
Joshua Hoffert
We're just in the circle.

00;35;13;01 - 00;35;14;06
Murray Dueck
You know, patterns repeating.

00;35;14;06 - 00;35;17;20
Joshua Hoffert
And it's like, no, it doesn't work that way.

00;35;17;22 - 00;35;37;19
Murray Dueck
It's it's funny when you're on the other side of it. And it's been a long time now, but I'm writing about this a little bit. So I'm revisiting my past. And I remember back in the 80s, you know, we're talking before why I'm probably 83 now. Yeah. And and I remember there were just introducing ministry time and into into my Mennonite church, Mennonite Brethren church.

00;35;37;19 - 00;35;39;21
Murray Dueck
So basically Baptists without guns, right.

00;35;39;24 - 00;35;40;08
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;35;40;11 - 00;35;56;05
Murray Dueck
Because Mennonites your pacifist. But that's another story. So and people would go up to get prayer ministry. And I remember thinking to myself, good thing I don't need to go get prayer ministry because I'm not screwed up, because obviously those people that are going out there.

00;35;56;05 - 00;35;56;18
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;35;56;25 - 00;36;16;15
Murray Dueck
They're screwed up. Like whatever's going on with them, they can't hold it together. They've got problems. And I just thank God I look at people go up and go, wow, I got it together. Which which now everybody I do inner healing. And I spent four years just in personal goals. Like I, I need more, you know, I think Paul said, you know what he starts out I'm the.

00;36;16;21 - 00;36;18;23
Joshua Hoffert
Murray does need a lot more.

00;36;18;25 - 00;36;41;20
Murray Dueck
Yeah, a lot more. And then he ends with I'm chief of sinners, right. So yeah. But but the thing is, when we when you, we believe and what we're taught is, is okay, if I live up to these rules, therefore I'm close to God. And if I am prospering, that's a sign that I'm close to God.

00;36;41;21 - 00;36;42;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;36;42;06 - 00;36;46;26
Murray Dueck
That's right. And that if my church is growing and I'm serving and it's going well, I'm close to God.

00;36;47;03 - 00;36;47;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;36;47;19 - 00;36;54;25
Murray Dueck
And everything is external. There is nothing there that I just said out loud that is anything to do with your internal world.

00;36;55;00 - 00;36;55;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;36;55;10 - 00;37;17;18
Murray Dueck
Right. Right. Well, I work on purity of heart. Everything's out here is going fine. So therefore I'm what you know. Right. And and see the thing is, everybody, you know, I'll use myself as a guide. You pick. But like for me again I said, I've said this before and I need to work on it. Well, I, it's not all the time, but but I, I'm a pretty crappy driver.

00;37;17;18 - 00;37;34;29
Murray Dueck
I'm, I'm, I'm Lightfoot Friesen was my grandpa was considered Ledford Friesen and I inherited that 100%. And and I can be especially Cadillac drivers. I find them to be the worst. You know, we used to. We used to pull drive. We have to drive into Vancouver every Saturday to teach. So we would go, who are the best drivers and who were the worst?

00;37;34;29 - 00;37;41;18
Murray Dueck
I mean, right there, that's bad. You know, you're judging people and, a BMW drivers are actually really good.

00;37;41;21 - 00;37;43;22
Joshua Hoffert
But I had a BMW for a little while, so.

00;37;43;25 - 00;38;01;29
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Me too. So I, you know, so I could be biased, but but but Jaguar drivers and Mercedes drivers and worst, you know, not many Catholics out there, but there were. And they'd run lights and they would not. They signal in the church late and they would be like those people. Oh, driving me crazy, you know what I mean?

00;38;02;01 - 00;38;25;24
Murray Dueck
Okay. So what's what's that exposing. It's really I mean, is it true that they're being bad drivers? Yes, yes it is. But where's all the judgment coming from? Well, my at my heart. Right. And I feel like a lot better driver when I'm looking down at everybody else because it gives me some system of where do I fit, you know, everybody walk through an airport, just walk through an airport and try not to judge anybody.

00;38;25;26 - 00;38;32;20
Murray Dueck
All these people try not to judge anybody on their clothes or their, you know, where they're walking or what they're doing or what.

00;38;32;22 - 00;38;34;01
Joshua Hoffert
A blindfold at that point.

00;38;34;01 - 00;38;58;03
Murray Dueck
It's, you know, human humanity. It's it's it's almost impossible. Like we're just so we categorize our brains, always categorizing you. Kitty's here. So again, one day it was winter, and I slid a little bit through this. This, stop sign. It was a bit uphill. I didn't think you could slide uphill through a stoplight. And this guy was driving by with a tree on top of his car, and he looks at me, points at me out the window.

00;38;58;03 - 00;39;17;20
Murray Dueck
You. And he points at his head thing. You know, I'm like, oh, I was sober because he was right. And, you know, I didn't judge anybody for a couple of months. Like I was like, oh, that poor because I, because I understood finally what's in my heart. Right. So therefore I had so much more grace for what's in everybody else's heart.

00;39;17;20 - 00;39;18;10
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;39;18;13 - 00;39;26;09
Murray Dueck
But when we're not looking at the purity of our own heart, and we're just therefore judging our brother, we've missed the whole point.

00;39;26;13 - 00;39;27;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;39;27;08 - 00;39;45;26
Murray Dueck
Because we are supposed to judge, but it's not other people. It's the stuff from the knowledge of Tree of Good and Evil that we are. Yeah, right. And so the idea here is everybody that when you get triggered, when something triggers you, you're not. We're not supposed to live like Jonah. Those stupid Ninevites I'm getting out of here.

00;39;45;26 - 00;40;03;11
Murray Dueck
And if I leave, God is going to kill them. Right? So if I do this, you're supposed to kind of be more like. Like, maybe Jonah at the end of the story where he. He loves the vine, and then God kills it. He's really angry again and got giggles. Jonah, as you love the vine, I love this people.

00;40;03;13 - 00;40;23;05
Murray Dueck
Right? In other words, Jonah, I need you to. When you feel something, I need you to look into your heart to see what's there, what's going on. Right? Or Peter in acts ten. I've never eaten anything up here at all my life. Right. It's like he's pondering, why am I having this emotional reaction? You got triggered. Got intentionally triggered him?

00;40;23;05 - 00;40;27;04
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Why? Because three gentiles are about to show up at his door that he's going to judge. So.

00;40;27;10 - 00;40;27;20
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;40;27;21 - 00;40;45;15
Murray Dueck
The idea is when we get triggered, it's showing a sickness inside of us that's pointing to a belief system that could be from upbringing or church or whatever. And it goes to show I need to get some healing. I need to go to confession. I need to work on my stuff. My externals are not telling me I'm completely together.

00;40;45;17 - 00;40;54;03
Murray Dueck
Look at everything I'm doing. Yeah, you love God, but hate your brother. You love God, but you get triggered, right?

00;40;54;05 - 00;40;54;24
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;40;54;27 - 00;41;21;17
Murray Dueck
And and I get triggered all the time. I'm getting triggered by this cat who's clawing me and eating my head. You are triggering me right now. Please stop. You're not listening to me. Oh, well. Okay. I shall love my cat as myself. But, you know. So everybody, it's, the spiritual disciplines in. If we go back to, what what Father Luke is talking about, purity of heart starts to undo your triggers.

00;41;21;19 - 00;41;42;16
Murray Dueck
That's what starts to show you your patterns. It starts to reveal things that you don't see because you're, you know, you're practicing, like, for example, when you drive your car, I'm going to practice today, not looking down on anybody. That would be a good practice for me, right? Yeah. But why am I doing it? So it becomes automatic in my heart.

00;41;42;18 - 00;42;00;06
Murray Dueck
It creates humility in me. And I can have the Lord transform those areas, to be like him. So disciplines and confession or tools of putting your soul back under the occupation of your spirit.

00;42;00;13 - 00;42;00;25
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;42;00;26 - 00;42;20;28
Murray Dueck
Where you and Jesus are instead of your mind willing emotions like judging people freaking out would be emotions, right? Well, I'm going to earn my salvation putting them back where the father lives. Ouch. Sorry. Cat with claws on shorts so that your soul can be healed and you can become Christlike.

00;42;21;00 - 00;42;21;27
Murray Dueck
So there you go.

00;42;21;29 - 00;42;27;12
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. I'm just. Yeah. If you have more thoughts, you can go ahead.

00;42;27;18 - 00;42;42;24
Murray Dueck
Well, I'd love to share something in particular that. I think it goes back to attachment style. I mean, a lot of that is in here, right. Like we're talking around it. Yeah, totally. Our earlier conversation really fills this out.

00;42;42;27 - 00;42;52;24
Joshua Hoffert
So I'm so joined Patreon and you can hear the earlier conversation. Right. But in brief I'll just say this about that so you can.

00;42;52;26 - 00;43;06;28
Murray Dueck
I mean, it would be great for you to share that little piece about the the fellow you were talking about earlier because I'm about, you know, feeling sad or I'm, you know, I'm not going to do that. Right?

00;43;07;01 - 00;43;08;24
Joshua Hoffert
What was that? And I'm trying to remember.

00;43;08;24 - 00;43;13;21
Murray Dueck
What? Yeah. You were meeting with somebody, and he said, I'm, What did he say? I.

00;43;13;21 - 00;43;15;23
Joshua Hoffert
Can, go ahead.

00;43;15;26 - 00;43;23;11
Murray Dueck
Because I'm feeling sad about something. And we were like, well, you're just because you're you're using your will to make yourself. Oh, yeah. Something.

00;43;23;13 - 00;43;24;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right.

00;43;24;12 - 00;43;38;05
Murray Dueck
Because that really fits into this whole thing. Right. I'm just going to ignore it and I'm yeah, my will and I'm not going to look at my issues and I'm going to do this. And either way, you're reaping something here because you're unfortunately you're not working on purity of heart and confession.

00;43;38;07 - 00;43;53;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Well, we were talking about just, just, you know, thinking of attachment theory in that sense, right? That just the Coles notes version of that or it's from our American or American listeners, that's the cliff notes.

00;43;53;26 - 00;43;54;25
Murray Dueck
That's right.

00;43;54;27 - 00;44;37;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Is that salvation could be thought of, probably more properly thought of as a new attachment with the father, a secure attachment. Looking at attachment theory. Attachment theory separates, we've talked about this on the podcast before. So just, briefly, into secure attachment and insecure attachment. Yeah. And secure attachment is where I have a, loving parents who cared for my needs, who are emotionally available, who are warm and, and, warm and open, who, who were, you know, I could, I could talk to and they, they protected me and all these things.

00;44;37;15 - 00;45;04;18
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Secure attachment what everybody wants. And but many people end up with insecure attachment. I had emotionally unavailable parents. They were there. They cared for my needs, but they weren't emotionally available to me. They didn't protect me. They, you know, things happened to me that. So we developed insecure attachment and the an insecure attachment treats these things as rules to keep me in line.

00;45;04;20 - 00;45;16;29
Joshua Hoffert
And a secure attachment. Teachers treat them as Guideposts that help direct me to become a fully mature human being. Very nice. But I would look so I would look more like Jesus. Right. And, I, I.

00;45;16;29 - 00;45;17;29
Murray Dueck
Remember.

00;45;18;01 - 00;45;48;14
Joshua Hoffert
A number of years ago, I was when, when Aaron and I moved to the East Coast, it was a really difficult the there's a lot of backdrop to that whole thing. You can go listen to episode two. I think I probably got into the details of it. Way back when. And, I was really wrestling with ministry identity and gifting and building and because everything had crumbled, right?

00;45;48;14 - 00;46;12;22
Joshua Hoffert
Like all the stuff that I was building and working on a growing, it just crumbled. And almost overnight it felt like was just. Yeah. Oh, right. Church I was working for imploded. The ministry I was running shut down everything. Right? I was like, oh, this sucks. And, I remember having a moment with the Lord after we moved and we've gotten nothing, right.

00;46;12;25 - 00;46;16;16
Joshua Hoffert
And, we don't even barely even know anybody in this new place.

00;46;16;17 - 00;46;17;07
Murray Dueck
Oh, man.

00;46;17;12 - 00;46;42;04
Joshua Hoffert
And, and, we didn't even have a house yet. We were staying in someone else's vacation home, and, And the Lord said to me, serve me in obscurity. I was like, what the heck does that mean? You know, and the guy that if you don't feel like the Holy Spirit's okay with our misguided questions,

00;46;42;07 - 00;46;45;15
Murray Dueck
I think he's trying to get him up because he went to our belief systems. Okay.

00;46;45;16 - 00;46;45;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;46;45;29 - 00;46;48;24
Murray Dueck
Ask me that stupid question so I can heal you.

00;46;48;26 - 00;47;16;24
Joshua Hoffert
And and up until that point, I, I would say on some level, I served him because of what I got out of it, right? I got recognition, I got the, the rush of, the, the rush of being used in the moment, whether that was teaching prophecy or whatever. Right. The, the accolades that you get, right, that you can look on back and go, job well done.

00;47;16;24 - 00;47;20;29
Joshua Hoffert
Because I know I've had this many people came to a course or this.

00;47;20;29 - 00;47;32;25
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Oh for sure. So some of these things are so subconscious, are so common. All right. You're like, well, there's even no you just feel good and you don't necessarily, you know, you haven't sat down like okay. So and there's a.

00;47;32;27 - 00;47;41;02
Joshua Hoffert
There's a part of me that knows there's a part of me in that sense that would know what I'm not supposed to feel that way. Right?

00;47;41;05 - 00;47;41;19
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;47;41;22 - 00;48;01;21
Joshua Hoffert
And there's a part of me that still feels that way and I can't figure out how it what to do about that. Right. And so, you know, you strip everything away and, and the Lord says, serve me in obscurity and, and and it's like, you know, the, the natural inclination as well. But don't you want me to be seen?

00;48;01;21 - 00;48;27;22
Joshua Hoffert
Because if I'm seen, then you're seen, right? And now now I'm in my I should be important to you. So make sure everybody knows about me. And and when the Lord said that to me, it kind of jogged me out of that. And I had this conversation with him. Where he goes to be obscure means not to be seen by men or women for what you do, but recognize that it's enough that I see you.

00;48;27;25 - 00;48;37;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So basically he said, would you be okay if I anointed you when I needed you? Right? And it's like, haha.

00;48;37;28 - 00;48;40;19
Murray Dueck
Sorry, I'm just reliving my own experience here. Yeah.

00;48;40;23 - 00;48;41;26
Joshua Hoffert
You know. Yeah.

00;48;41;28 - 00;48;54;17
Murray Dueck
And I know the Lord. When I was on the farm, we joined his home church. I didn't believe in full time ministry ever. And I've got a bachelor degree in ministry from an old church. And the Lord would say to me, if you never minister again. Right.

00;48;54;17 - 00;48;55;00
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly.

00;48;55;00 - 00;48;55;29
Murray Dueck
Am I enough for you?

00;48;56;00 - 00;48;57;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, exactly.

00;48;57;02 - 00;49;14;06
Murray Dueck
And the answer when I was Minister Gothard. Sure. Yeah. You know. Yeah. And now it's like, no. Yeah. Actually, my degree is worthless. I don't I'm not making enough money to feed my family. Yeah, like you're completely invisible. I'm going to be on a turkey farm the rest of my life. Yeah, yeah. You see, see the way? No, you're not.

00;49;14;06 - 00;49;18;01
Murray Dueck
And you have to kind of go, ooh, what's really driving me?

00;49;18;01 - 00;49;40;11
Joshua Hoffert
What's in there? Yeah. That's right. Exactly what's in there. So, so these two, the two phrases under this get purified and keep in check that only seek to please God. That is a beautiful phrase, but a lifetime to learn, right? It is not something that comes naturally because we have all these hidden motives and impulses that are driving our needs.

00;49;40;13 - 00;50;02;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, well, we come in contact with them. We have no idea that they're there. Right? But they're sitting there motivating things. And that's why it doesn't work. Because and that's why confession is so necessary. So I can go to someone who loves me, who cares about me, and I can say, hey, I'm recognizing that I really like it when people praise me and I don't like that.

00;50;02;16 - 00;50;10;24
Joshua Hoffert
But but if I don't have a value for confession, if I don't have a value for formation or process or journey, then then I hide that.

00;50;10;27 - 00;50;12;00
Murray Dueck
Absolutely. And then.

00;50;12;00 - 00;50;15;00
Joshua Hoffert
The voice, when it's hidden, becomes even more powerful.

00;50;15;03 - 00;50;15;21
Murray Dueck
Because I don't know.

00;50;15;21 - 00;50;21;04
Joshua Hoffert
Where it's coming from. Right? It's just it's just starting to talk louder and louder.

00;50;21;06 - 00;50;25;10
Murray Dueck
Being holy is to will myself through this in my own strength.

00;50;25;16 - 00;50;26;07
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly.

00;50;26;07 - 00;50;45;21
Murray Dueck
Therefore, God will love me. Yeah. Instead of like, you know, confess your sins and you will be healed when you know. Right? Boy, if I could get this off my chest. Yeah, like you said earlier. Yeah, it's such a better system. And. And it's so funny. How many of these things you are taught to us by, you know, our fenceline, our culture, our religion or upbringing?

00;50;45;21 - 00;50;46;21
Murray Dueck
This is how it works.

00;50;46;21 - 00;50;47;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, totally.

00;50;47;07 - 00;51;06;27
Murray Dueck
You know, and I remember after burnout, the first time we did our last trip to a church in Montana, we had one more trip to go. We did used to do a lot of events and stuff with the youth. And when we got there to this, you know, little church, and they were really going through some revivalist type things.

00;51;06;27 - 00;51;21;19
Murray Dueck
And the whole time we were there, he talked about the numbers, his programs and and you know what? That was me like a year before talk the same way. And I never heard it. Now it's like, oh my goodness, that I used to talk like this right here.

00;51;21;19 - 00;51;21;26
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;51;21;26 - 00;51;38;29
Murray Dueck
I didn't even know I was doing it. Yeah, it wasn't until I went the farm for a while I realized, wow. Like when you only got God and then you come back out of the desert, you spent a year and a half or whatever just looking at God, and then you're around other people who their identity is still another thing is you really see it.

00;51;39;05 - 00;51;39;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;51;39;26 - 00;51;59;24
Murray Dueck
But when you're doing it, you don't see it. And that's why having somebody to confess to, who hopefully is mature and been there, can save you a lot of years, because so often we just don't even see our own patterns and stuff because, oh, it's only functioning out of upbringing and culture. And, to have somebody that goes, hey, you know what?

00;51;59;26 - 00;52;01;08
Murray Dueck
That's right. You know.

00;52;01;10 - 00;52;28;21
Joshua Hoffert
That's it's so true. There's, I'm trying to think of which, desert father, desert father. It is, he says that essentially within each person. I wrote about this a long time ago on the blog on the Wind Ministries blog. Within each person, you have an inner mirror that you look at that reflects Christ to you.

00;52;28;23 - 00;52;44;15
Joshua Hoffert
And the whole point of it, I was just going to go try and find. I'll see if I can figure out who it is. The whole point of it is, was that when you look in the mirror, you see Jesus and what isn't him becomes clear.

00;52;44;17 - 00;52;46;06
Murray Dueck
Oh, that's a good way to say it. Right?

00;52;46;06 - 00;53;14;17
Joshua Hoffert
And it's like so, so because because one of the things that what rule eight covers is examining yourself. Examining yourself is not seeing everything that's wrong. It's seeing Jesus. And then what is not Jesus becomes clear and apparent. You're not trying because you examine yourself. You know, some people go, oh, that's like navel gazing and trying to figure out, you know, figuring out all the things that I'm doing wrong.

00;53;14;17 - 00;53;32;00
Joshua Hoffert
No, no, no, you see what he's doing right? And then when you're examining yourself is going, oh, that doesn't look like him. You know, that tendency to pride, that desire for to conquer or whatever, right? That doesn't look like him. And so then I go to someone who cares about me and said, hey, can I talk about this?

00;53;32;00 - 00;53;34;11
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Can I get it off my chest? As we said before.

00;53;34;13 - 00;53;34;24
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;53;34;24 - 00;54;01;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Examining yourself is actually a beautiful, profoundly grace filled mercy thing that is actually seeing yourself in light of who God's created you to be, not. So my point is, getting purified isn't looking for all the things that are impure and then removing them. It's looking at the things that are pure and realizing there's things that are in the way of that.

00;54;01;09 - 00;54;02;11
Murray Dueck
That's a good way to say it.

00;54;02;12 - 00;54;26;00
Joshua Hoffert
Reframes what I'm looking for. Right? I'm looking for him. And when I see him, I go, yeah, you know what? I probably that arrogance that's just sitting there, right? That anger that keeps coming up, it doesn't look like him. So God, I want let's deal with that. Right. But it's because it doesn't look like him. Not because I've searched myself to find the worst thing, the worst tendency possible.

00;54;26;03 - 00;54;51;09
Joshua Hoffert
So that's what the inner mirror does. It reflects Christ to us. And what what actually, Teresa of Avila, she talked about this as a spiritual practice, looking into a mirror and seeing you're yourself as Jesus and, you know, so she does something quite profoundly similar to. Wow, what this desert father talked about. And then, you know, in the light of, you know, like, I like I was saying earlier, I've never seen myself.

00;54;51;11 - 00;55;06;24
Joshua Hoffert
Right. I can't see myself. I can't see my face. I can't pull my eyeball out and turn it around and see my face. I can see a reflection of myself, but it's not myself, right? Then, when I confess to someone else, I can see myself in light of how they see me. Which is why a grace.

00;55;06;24 - 00;55;08;17
Murray Dueck
Smart way, grace full.

00;55;08;17 - 00;55;30;02
Joshua Hoffert
And loving relationship with a spiritual father and mother is so vitally important because now I'm seeing them myself through the lens of grace and mercy. I'm seeing how they respond to me when I talk about my worst tendencies. I think about a moment when, I, I had a long drive with my wife. We were going to go visit friends.

00;55;30;02 - 00;55;49;26
Joshua Hoffert
It's like an eight hour drive. Right? And she was pregnant, I think, with baby number one. And so this is a while. This was quite a while ago. Like, you know, ten, 15 years ago. And, Savannah's 12. So it was before that. And, we've been married for a few years, you know, maybe maybe 3 or 4.

00;55;49;29 - 00;56;16;14
Joshua Hoffert
And I've had this, this, this thing that happened to me when I was younger. Right? Like, like early 20s that I was full of shame about. Right. And, and I'd never told anybody about it. And because I was like, I was afraid if I told anybody, they'd reject me or judge me or whatever, right. So I just kind of hit it away, right?

00;56;16;16 - 00;56;35;22
Joshua Hoffert
Kept stuffing it, but it kept coming up and it kept coming up and it kept coming up and it kept coming up. And I was like, no, that's not who I am, right? But I was trying to deal with it on my own. I've repented and I've prayed to God. Right. And, you know, though, you were saying the Mike Bickle thing and we were driving.

00;56;35;23 - 00;57;03;17
Joshua Hoffert
We were driving. Beautiful conversation. You know, my my wonderful wife is pregnant. We're talking about life and we're talking about future together and all that kind of stuff. And and I can feel this thing lurking in the back. Right. And and it's not anything crazy either. It was just stuck there. Right. And I go, I finally just kind of blurted out, I told her about it, you know, when this happened, this happened.

00;57;03;17 - 00;57;27;02
Joshua Hoffert
My family, this happened to me. And, you know, and I know that obviously I'm not going to go into the details of all the implications people think you hear, they think it's like sexual abuse or something like that. It's not that's not what I'm talking about. And and Aaron goes, that makes me so angry that the devil would try and do that to you and your family.

00;57;27;05 - 00;57;27;27
Murray Dueck
Wow.

00;57;27;29 - 00;57;50;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. I when I was just a basket case at that point, you know, and because because I realized she just modeled what the father looks like to me. Yeah. Right. It was it was examining my heart. Right? I was starting to see this these ulterior motives and these things that happened to me and how they were guiding my decisions and how I thought about things.

00;57;50;04 - 00;58;08;29
Joshua Hoffert
And and I didn't like what I was seeing. Right. But I was afraid of saying anything because, well, then I'd have to expose some of these things I did that I didn't I'm not really proud of. And, it what if someone rejects me? And so I tell her and it's like, oh my gosh, like that was a grace filled, mercy filled response.

00;58;08;29 - 00;58;28;20
Joshua Hoffert
And now I'm seeing myself in light of the father. Yeah. And so I'm so, so by then. This is the problem with the the lack of repentance as a, as a core foundational principle in a practice in our church upbringing is that I stumbled into a moment that brought great healing to me. Right? Because I felt.

00;58;28;23 - 00;58;30;08
Murray Dueck
We had to stumble into it. We had to.

00;58;30;08 - 00;58;30;22
Joshua Hoffert
Stumble into.

00;58;30;23 - 00;58;31;10
Murray Dueck
Having.

00;58;31;10 - 00;58;55;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, right. And and I saw the mirror all of a sudden being held up going, oh, that's what Jesus looked like. And I don't look like this guy anymore that I used to be. Right. And so we, you know, point eight is probably on one level in our evangelical background, point eight is kind of the hardest one to actually talk about, right?

00;58;55;22 - 00;58;57;08
Joshua Hoffert
Get purified all that's legal.

00;58;57;10 - 00;58;58;05
Murray Dueck
So you got to think of it.

00;58;58;05 - 00;59;04;14
Joshua Hoffert
So you've been and you know, you think of like like if I tell you, Murray, you better keep yourself in check. You're like, now you go to rules, right?

00;59;04;21 - 00;59;07;22
Murray Dueck
That's right. You go exactly to judicial system. Yeah.

00;59;07;25 - 00;59;09;12
Joshua Hoffert
And that's not what we're saying.

00;59;09;12 - 00;59;26;04
Murray Dueck
So and it's funny you know again and I I'll, I'll repeat the fast version of this. But I again I remember seeing the father. Mike, why do you put all your best people in monasteries. Right. All right. Well, you can hang out with them. And, you know, these people pray for 20 or 30 years and you'll become a friend, with one of them eventually.

00;59;26;04 - 00;59;54;18
Murray Dueck
And they'll become. You're one of your spiritual moms and dads for the rest of your life. How do you find spiritual moms and dads and you're your church culture? And I was like, because we don't. Yeah, we search engine, we work, we learned theology. Yeah. But this whole thing of mentoring and change and confession, we don't even know what it is anymore because we don't understand mentoring relationships because it's based on building and doing and vision.

00;59;54;20 - 01;00;15;20
Murray Dueck
And that's not the foundation of Christianity. Right? It's about becoming and and just what Josh talked about that that's that's the experience waiting for us in relationships with people as we bring things into the light. And it heals the soul.

01;00;15;23 - 01;00;31;21
Joshua Hoffert
But then you who who you surround yourself with is so important, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I know, I know people are going to hear it. There will be people listening to that that don't have that kind of marriage. Yeah, yeah. And you know, that definitely is a thing. And so I my heart goes out to that because there's no simple solution for that.

01;00;31;23 - 01;00;31;25
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

01;00;31;27 - 01;00;36;20
Murray Dueck
Right. And you know. Yeah. And where do you I know people will be asking right now where do you find these people.

01;00;36;23 - 01;01;00;23
Joshua Hoffert
And I got I got lucky with my wife, you know, but I think I would my first response to that is, like, asked the father to bring people to you. Yes. Right. And I know it sounds so casual, but it's also the first step that most of us skip because they we get frustrated. The person's not there, right?

01;01;00;24 - 01;01;17;16
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And I think part of it is everybody that they are, they're but we have again because of our culture, we have some preconceived ideas that these people look like. Well, they might they got to have a degree, right. And they've had to be in full time ministry.

01;01;17;21 - 01;01;18;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

01;01;18;08 - 01;01;24;27
Murray Dueck
And I mean, some of the older people in your sitting in your church have been sitting with Jesus for four years.

01;01;24;28 - 01;01;27;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. Yeah. That was the point. That's all I can point.

01;01;27;13 - 01;01;28;09
Murray Dueck
Asked them to.

01;01;28;09 - 01;01;29;15
Joshua Hoffert
Help you ask?

01;01;29;21 - 01;01;31;07
Murray Dueck
Yeah. They're not on the road.

01;01;31;07 - 01;01;32;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, the ones that are on the.

01;01;32;07 - 01;01;43;17
Murray Dueck
Road, they're kind and look for somebody instead of looking for someone with the best degree and anointing in ministry, looking for someone who's the most kind and loving and carries the nature of Christ.

01;01;43;18 - 01;01;45;16
Joshua Hoffert
When you when you walk.

01;01;45;16 - 01;01;49;16
Murray Dueck
In the spiritual mom or dad like you're like that person, a mum or dad, go to them.

01;01;49;19 - 01;02;00;04
Joshua Hoffert
When you walk into the room, you know, whether it's your church community, whether it's a home group, whether it's a group of friends, whatever, who makes you feel loved.

01;02;00;06 - 01;02;02;20
Murray Dueck
Right? There we go and go.

01;02;02;22 - 01;02;37;24
Joshua Hoffert
I'm going to spend more time with that person. Yeah, because I think they have something I need, and and I want to get to this place where I can confess the things I'm wrestling with, but I. But because of my, you know, whether it's my culture of origin, my family upbringing, all these kind of things, I'm having a hard time trusting and divulging and, and yeah, there's so many things where I'm just thinking about being able to move like, like, the mark of a mature brain is the ability to move between emotional states without hiccups.

01;02;37;26 - 01;02;39;07
Joshua Hoffert
People can't do that, right?

01;02;39;07 - 01;02;40;00
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

01;02;40;02 - 01;02;58;22
Joshua Hoffert
If I'm in functional mode, it's very difficult for me to move to for for most people. Right? Yeah. I'm in functional mode. It's difficult for me to all of a sudden move to relational mode and then move to emotional mode. I get stuck in function, and then someone comes to me trying to relate to me, and all I can do is think about tasks.

01;02;58;24 - 01;03;14;13
Joshua Hoffert
And now I say things that they're in relational mode and they're looking for connection, and I'm in task mode and I can't. I can't if I'm not fluid enough to move between the two, I'll end up hurting that person and turning them off. Oh yeah, very least just going, well, how come that conversation and go the right way?

01;03;14;13 - 01;03;15;22
Joshua Hoffert
You know, so see.

01;03;15;22 - 01;03;17;04
Murray Dueck
It later. Like, oh what did I do.

01;03;17;04 - 01;03;30;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah you see it later. That's right. And and you know that's fine. Humans are a work in progress. And and the because that that definitely does happen. But you look for the people that make you feel cared for and loved that you can and.

01;03;30;20 - 01;03;44;07
Murray Dueck
Everybody that's so important because I want to throw out one thought. There we go. Yeah, I remember, I remember, was it drawn to the cross, said, God cannot be known by knowledge, but he can be known by love. Yeah. So did I butcher that really badly, or might I?

01;03;44;09 - 01;03;47;15
Joshua Hoffert
You know, if it's not what John of the cross said, I agree with it regardless.

01;03;47;16 - 01;04;16;00
Murray Dueck
Oh, okay. Well, so so the the problem. Good one. In our in our culture again this is a another problem in Western culture. We take we make everything about young and beauty. And then we make everything about degrees or building or doing. And then we take all our older people and push them aside. Right. And then we wonder why we get our identity from what we do, and we don't have anybody to talk to about our hearts.

01;04;16;02 - 01;04;37;03
Murray Dueck
Right. And we have actually taken the very people who have walked with the Lord all these years and, and and made them invisible. Yeah. And then we wonder why we don't have mentors and our, our culture is really has really set that up. Right. And yeah. And it's you know, if you, if you want to see it on display, you know, go drive around the homeless.

01;04;37;05 - 01;04;50;09
Murray Dueck
How many people have Chinese or East Indian culture do you see out there. Yeah. Nobody. Just white people. Why. Because the, the the you know, the micro family is so broken down because we've made it. It's so about individuals.

01;04;50;12 - 01;04;52;25
Joshua Hoffert
Broken down in some of those other cultures than it is. Yeah.

01;04;52;26 - 01;05;05;04
Murray Dueck
I mean it doesn't that mirror our individualistic Christianity and wonder why we're so alone? I mean it's it's it's a real mirror of that and it's.

01;05;05;06 - 01;05;06;09
Joshua Hoffert
Salvation by God.

01;05;06;09 - 01;05;08;08
Murray Dueck
Is something better, you know.

01;05;08;14 - 01;05;10;24
Joshua Hoffert
And by faith alone, single handedly ruined. Well, yes.

01;05;10;29 - 01;05;15;13
Murray Dueck
There it is again. I hate to say it, but you're right. Yeah. No.

01;05;15;15 - 01;05;37;19
Joshua Hoffert
At least the popular notion of it will say. Yeah, because it it did. It creates this privatized, individualized. I, I don't really need to go to anybody else. There's, you know, we're, we're, we're happy if we find community. But it's a it's not like I remember reading, we'll wrap this up. I guess we're, we're getting this gonna be a long episode.

01;05;37;22 - 01;05;39;13
Murray Dueck
Yeah, well, it's good we get to this.

01;05;39;15 - 01;06;01;22
Joshua Hoffert
It's great. The, Oh. What's his name? I can't think of his name. Eves Conger. He was a, You know the name? He's a Catholic guy, and he was studying, he wrote a he wrote a whole book on the East-West divide. The. And the split that happened with the,

01;06;01;25 - 01;06;02;15
Murray Dueck
Oh, the Orthodox.

01;06;02;20 - 01;06;23;24
Joshua Hoffert
Orthodox in the Catholic. He's he he he died probably 30 or 40 years ago. But he was a priest that really labored towards trying to heal that divide. That was his kind of that was kind of his thing, right? Yeah. Fascinating guy. Right. Fascinating guy. And, anyway, he so he, he writes his book, studies what caused the split?

01;06;23;24 - 01;06;32;28
Joshua Hoffert
And I remember one of the things he says that really stood out to me was he he said, you know, the split happened long before it actually happened.

01;06;33;01 - 01;06;33;22
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

01;06;33;24 - 01;06;59;03
Joshua Hoffert
And, because it and it it officially happened in, 1056, I think was the. Yeah, something like that. Right. Something like that, where the Orthodox and the 1054, something like that, where the Orthodox in the Catholic Church split off and that divided the, the seats of power. And, you know, they just created all kinds of chaos. And he goes but realistically, the the divide had been brewing for centuries before.

01;06;59;06 - 01;07;16;23
Joshua Hoffert
And he said, and he said this the problem began in that in the East or in the he said, in the West, Christianity was a matter of what you believed. In the East, Christianity was a matter of what community you belong to now.

01;07;16;23 - 01;07;17;15
Murray Dueck
Interesting.

01;07;17;17 - 01;07;44;25
Joshua Hoffert
And, and one was more logical and rational. One was less concerned about logic and rational and more concerned about were you part of our family. Right. And so then the, the logical, rational people were going, well, you don't believe the right thing. And the, the family relational people were going, well, you have no community or communities. Atrocious, right.

01;07;44;28 - 01;08;15;00
Joshua Hoffert
So so you're saying the the divide happened hundreds of years before because of a functional way of approaching what it meant to be a Christian. Right. And in the West. And again, it's going back to the verse. We are westernized people and Christianity, as a privatized expression of your faith, is largely looked at as a worldview, with a prayer that gives you access and a set of beliefs that you adopt.

01;08;15;03 - 01;08;16;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah, right. So it starts.

01;08;16;12 - 01;08;42;15
Joshua Hoffert
And then you're lucky if you stumble into community. Whereas in the in the East, Christianity is way less concerned with getting all your points of doctrine. Right. And they're way more concerned with do you belong to a community or are you part of our family? Right. You're in. Right. We can work out all that other stuff. Now that you're in and in the West we go, well, work out all your thoughts and then you get in.

01;08;42;17 - 01;08;43;11
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

01;08;43;13 - 01;09;04;04
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And and and and both have their merits, right. Like, we want to have good belief about what God is like. Right. Like that's good theology. But we also want to have a strong sense of identity that says you're part of who we are and you're not in because you think, right, you're in because we love you and we can work out all that other stuff after the fact.

01;09;04;04 - 01;09;09;01
Murray Dueck
Boyd brings up a whole like, nother topic because,

01;09;09;04 - 01;09;17;15
Joshua Hoffert
It really does brings up about a billion other topics. So but, I mean, we could we could keep talking and talking and talking, about this.

01;09;17;20 - 01;09;20;07
Murray Dueck
Can if you're watching the video, you can see I'm off somewhere now.

01;09;20;07 - 01;09;23;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Murray's floated into another plane of existence.

01;09;23;06 - 01;09;25;28
Murray Dueck
Like the Terminator. I've got information going by my screen.

01;09;25;29 - 01;09;29;25
Joshua Hoffert
You've got, like, three other episodes docked up in your brain right now. Yeah.

01;09;29;25 - 01;09;31;18
Murray Dueck
I'm like, boy, oh, boy. I mean.

01;09;31;23 - 01;09;32;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;09;32;26 - 01;09;39;18
Murray Dueck
I mean, you know, I'll just say quickly, like, you know, it's funny working with street kids back in the day. Sure that.

01;09;39;20 - 01;09;44;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, they weren't they didn't care about what they believed. Right. Like they just wanted to be part of a family.

01;09;44;23 - 01;09;58;05
Murray Dueck
Exactly. And so they come in with dog collars and shaved heads and back then everything with studs and earrings. It wasn't tattoos and, and, and people would be wearing, like a really baggy pads with long johns underneath. And sure, you know, that was it look. Right.

01;09;58;10 - 01;09;58;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;09;58;20 - 01;10;21;03
Murray Dueck
And they would go to church and the people people would tell them, you can't come here unless you take off that dog collar, grow your hair back, change your clothes, then you can belong. Yeah, right. But you've basically told them that all the pain and everything inside of them and how they've tried to survive doesn't count. And now you want them to follow the rules to be a part of your culture, or you won't let them in.

01;10;21;10 - 01;10;27;07
Murray Dueck
Yeah. So just shove all that pain down and do it our way, and then we'll reward you.

01;10;27;14 - 01;10;28;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;10;28;17 - 01;10;45;05
Murray Dueck
And and you know, most of them would just go screw you and walk away because they realize you don't see me. Right. And and you know, remember Graham Cook says, you know, we we often are, believe the right thing, behave the right way, and then we'll let you belong.

01;10;45;07 - 01;10;46;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;10;46;02 - 01;10;53;22
Murray Dueck
And how it should be as well. Come join our community along. And then as you are with us, you'll learn how to behave the right way.

01;10;53;27 - 01;10;54;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;10;54;08 - 01;10;57;01
Murray Dueck
And as you see the love, then you'll believe.

01;10;57;03 - 01;10;57;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;10;57;28 - 01;11;14;13
Murray Dueck
And but again, it's based on a doing. See everybody that's based on a doing judge. Judicial right. Based on right thinking based on right doing. And it's so automatic. So we just don't even see it because we've grown up with it. And and it just. Yeah. It's just.

01;11;14;16 - 01;11;16;21
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. It's a that's the best.

01;11;16;22 - 01;11;38;27
Murray Dueck
It's just sad I, I it just brings me back to some moments that. I just, you know, I, I, you know, I think we all grow up and, you know, we have to understand that, you know, I was like that at one time too, right? And and hopefully I'm still growing and changing. So I don't want to say screw all of you, but it's just.

01;11;39;00 - 01;11;41;21
Murray Dueck
Anyway, it just hurts my heart.

01;11;41;23 - 01;11;55;14
Joshua Hoffert
I think the whole the whole conversation underscores how there's there's such a cultural divide and a backdrop behind the language of rules and then get purified and keep in check.

01;11;55;17 - 01;12;07;11
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Really? Because really, because we didn't even talk about, like, okay, what would be a good prayer room for Jesus prayer. How do you do that? I mean, right there.

01;12;07;13 - 01;12;11;04
Joshua Hoffert
We're going to get to that. That's point ten is have a prayer. Well, so oh.

01;12;11;04 - 01;12;32;16
Murray Dueck
It's there okay. It is there because I'm thinking about the exam and I'm thinking about that. So I'm thinking about the Jesus prayer. Like like I you know we kind of talked about why it's important. But we didn't talked about how. So that's oh that's good because yeah. Anyway, when you, I just, I just, I, I guess I feel loved and connected.

01;12;32;16 - 01;12;39;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. And so I'll say, I'll say this point rule eight makes a lot more sense in the context of spiritual family.

01;12;40;01 - 01;12;40;24
Murray Dueck
Yes.

01;12;40;24 - 01;12;41;16
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

01;12;41;18 - 01;13;03;21
Murray Dueck
Yes. Oh, thank you so much. Like thank you because you're really not there. Oh. If you read it as a, as an individualistic culture as to something you have to live up to, it's, it's, it's a, it's like a big ruler stick to beat yourself with. But if you read it in a relational, dynamic community where you're being parented as a child into spiritual health.

01;13;03;24 - 01;13;04;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;13;04;18 - 01;13;05;26
Murray Dueck
Oh, it's so much different.

01;13;05;26 - 01;13;06;20
Joshua Hoffert
So yeah, go.

01;13;06;20 - 01;13;09;25
Murray Dueck
To the I think I hear a thousand people going.

01;13;09;28 - 01;13;28;03
Joshua Hoffert
Oh yeah, yeah. And that's what we're trying to tell you, right? Go to the wise people in your community that you can talk to to get this stuff off your chest. That's what get purified and keep in check means. Yeah, find the people that can help you, guide you and lead you and can go, well, when I struggle with that, this is what I did.

01;13;28;10 - 01;13;49;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, right. Yeah. I'm smart. And you, if you're trying to please other people, right. Seek to please God. If you're trying to please other people, it's gonna be a lot harder to find those ones. And so, so in the context of spiritual family, this this kind of guideline and guide post makes a lot more sense. I've got a spiritual temperament.

01;13;49;15 - 01;14;06;12
Murray Dueck
That's looking and I'll maybe throw it. One last thought, because I know we got to end this. And, you know, we all think about how it would be good to do an episode on this impactful event. So, so kind of the Lord. He said, sneaky guy. You know, he'll do something to impact our heart. It'll meet him, his father, or we'll hear his voice.

01;14;06;12 - 01;14;36;09
Murray Dueck
That's impactful. And and that creates a spiritual principle, like, like I went to our God spoke spiritual principle. God speaks today. You know, it creates a core value. Like, I want more of this, I want over here. And it creates a life goal, right? So, you know, God's sneaky and and I just wanted to say, you know, in regards to what we're talking about today, one thing I never realized that was so impactful to me that when I was in Bible school, right, going to go learn the stuff, learn to do it right.

01;14;36;11 - 01;15;10;20
Murray Dueck
The thing that changed my life was meeting with 5 or 6 guys every night and just praying together, and I and I realized being a bit of an emotionally sensitive person, I needed people around to say, guys, I'm struggling today. Yeah. You know, or and the days were stronger. Like, I could pray for them. Yeah. And just building a lifestyle of having people just meeting once in a while and saying, guys, this is this is life and building relationships based on honest love and heart to heart.

01;15;10;23 - 01;15;41;29
Murray Dueck
And then you being there to do that for them changes you totally. And that was the one of the best things I ever did. And and eventually, you know, when it came to God rocker even doing mentoring now I'm still living out of those relationships from those six people today. Yeah. And, and and everyone, you know, if you can't find some, some older people just to meet with people, let's worship together and we're going to love on each other and, and I mean, you can do group lectio divina thing.

01;15;41;29 - 01;15;57;20
Murray Dueck
Where do Scripture fit into that? Oh, we can talk about that next week. Yeah. But but yeah, choosing to build the heart to heart relationships like like, you know, Joshua was talking about with his wife in his car. You know, we can do that with people. Totally. It just takes a little bit of bravery to go, okay. It does not true.

01;15;57;20 - 01;16;19;29
Murray Dueck
I'm not going to get redirected. It's not true. God's going to beat me up. It's if I step into the light. It's counterintuitive to yeah, I'm not going to protect myself and to realize, wow, I don't need to be strong for myself. There's other people. We can do this together. It's a beautiful lifestyle change. And I'd recommend, you know, you guys do that, and that's a good place to start.

01;16;19;29 - 01;16;35;21
Murray Dueck
Even if it's you, it you can't find some older people. You got any friends? You know, just just start there and and and and go, you know what? I want to be more real. I want to go deeper. I'm going to let you love on me, and I'm going to love on you, and we're going to do it together.

01;16;35;21 - 01;16;44;15
Joshua Hoffert
That's right, that's right. And we're pretty much full circle back at, fast track, slow track attachment. Yeah. Right.

01;16;44;18 - 01;16;45;18
Murray Dueck
Which is back to Earth.

01;16;45;19 - 01;16;56;23
Joshua Hoffert
Because then, you know, that's the science behind it, but it's, it's an a, it's age old wisdom. It's, you know, you don't need to know the science to know that it's important. But I was under growing community. Yeah. That's right.

01;16;56;23 - 01;17;01;10
Murray Dueck
As life rule and helping on purity of heart there.

01;17;01;11 - 01;17;07;19
Joshua Hoffert
I think that turns into the episode title The Power of Healing Community. Yeah. There we go.

01;17;07;19 - 01;17;08;13
Murray Dueck
There you go.

01;17;08;15 - 01;17;14;03
Joshua Hoffert
All right, well, Marie, as always, there's been great fun every episode. Yeah.

01;17;14;05 - 01;17;15;27
Murray Dueck
So I get to geek out on things.

01;17;15;28 - 01;17;17;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right, that's right.

01;17;17;09 - 01;17;20;11
Murray Dueck
Work on her own healing and all those kind of go there stuff.

01;17;20;13 - 01;17;25;03
Joshua Hoffert
And all these people are along for the journey. So, Yeah. Yeah.

01;17;25;03 - 01;17;26;10
Murray Dueck
Thank you guys for being with us.

01;17;26;13 - 01;17;45;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. And we hope, we hope and pray that you if you have spiritual family like that, awesome. And we celebrate with you what the Lord's done in your life. And if you don't have that, our prayer is for you that you would find that the Lord would lead you and guide you and bring people around you that would strengthen you and your life.

01;17;45;25 - 01;17;51;25
Murray Dueck
And it might be surprising everybody, but even with today's technology, it works equally good on zoom.

01;17;51;26 - 01;17;52;22
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Yeah.

01;17;52;28 - 01;17;59;28
Murray Dueck
That's right. If you moved to a new town, you're somewhere you don't have anybody. Guess what? You know, zoom or people out there.

01;18;00;05 - 01;18;02;03
Joshua Hoffert
Zoom zoom zoom zoom zoom.

01;18;02;05 - 01;18;03;11
Murray Dueck
Yeah. There we go.

01;18;03;14 - 01;18;07;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Okay. All right, well, more until next time.

01;18;07;03 - 01;18;07;17
Murray Dueck
Next week.

01;18;07;22 - 01;18;10;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. Well, I've even more to talk about.

01;18;10;07 - 01;18;11;09
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Oh my goodness.

01;18;11;09 - 01;18;12;04
Joshua Hoffert
All right everybody.

01;18;12;10 - 01;18;12;29
Murray Dueck
Out of trouble.

01;18;13;01 - 01;18;17;26
Joshua Hoffert
Love you. Bless you. And hasta la vista Prime.

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Joshua Hoffert

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Murray Dueck

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