Walling out the world and making silence

What does it mean to be a monk in the world? How can we foster a quiet heart to respond to the gentle tug of the Father? Join Josh and Murr as they cover Rule 9 of the document: The 10 Rules of Spiritual Life by the monks at Goosechase Monastery in Nova Scotia.

For more about Goosechase Monastery, visit: https://www.goosechasemonastery.ca/

For more about Voices from the Desert, visit our Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/VoicesfromtheDesert

Transcript

00;00;17;22 - 00;00;40;25
Joshua Hoffert
This is how God designed it to work. That the heart would be alive and aflame in the presence of God. And that the mouth would be speaking the things, the hearts thinking that the mind would be dwelling on those things so that the inner man would be alive to that world. Right. So now everything is strange and righteous.

00;00;40;25 - 00;00;56;05
Joshua Hoffert
The evidence of righteousness now is at what the mouth is saying. Hearts. That the heart would be alive, in the flesh would be alive. I would be speaking the things that are speaking the heart of the.

00;00;56;07 - 00;01;09;06
Murray Dueck
Crowd would respond, you know the things they.

00;01;09;08 - 00;01;20;24
Murray Dueck
Woke up to the voices in the desert. But yet that was horrible. I'm judging myself already.

00;01;20;26 - 00;01;25;11
Joshua Hoffert
You should. You should judge yourself. Yeah. You should be very angry with yourself.

00;01;25;13 - 00;01;26;18
Murray Dueck
Never should on yourself.

00;01;26;18 - 00;01;27;09
Joshua Hoffert
But that you're.

00;01;27;11 - 00;01;28;02
Murray Dueck
Doing.

00;01;28;05 - 00;01;31;09
Joshua Hoffert
Well. That's kind of the topic for today. And you know, in a way I.

00;01;31;09 - 00;01;34;13
Murray Dueck
Love it because it fits in. Because that was like Mary.

00;01;34;13 - 00;01;36;23
Joshua Hoffert
Has given us a demonstration. Yeah.

00;01;36;23 - 00;01;39;07
Murray Dueck
He's giving us a prophetic. It was pathetic.

00;01;39;12 - 00;01;53;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. Yeah. There is. Yeah. Well, we were just talking about, you know, when we we won't use the word prophetic anymore. So we don't get thrown into different camps. You'd have to be a subscriber to know what we were talking about though. So I got pretty animated.

00;01;54;00 - 00;02;03;04
Murray Dueck
Yeah, it drives me nuts to know end that. That where you become. It's so divorced from its biblical meaning.

00;02;03;04 - 00;02;03;20
Joshua Hoffert
Oh yeah.

00;02;03;20 - 00;02;07;18
Murray Dueck
And context and that it makes me mad that.

00;02;07;20 - 00;02;08;19
Joshua Hoffert
It's become a byword.

00;02;08;19 - 00;02;11;24
Murray Dueck
Almost. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we let it happen.

00;02;11;27 - 00;02;12;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;02;12;10 - 00;02;24;01
Murray Dueck
And number two, I'm also mad that people judge me for the fact I use that word, but it doesn't mean what they think it means. And I can't do anything about that. And that makes them.

00;02;24;04 - 00;02;26;10
Joshua Hoffert
I don't think that word means what you think it means.

00;02;26;13 - 00;02;30;22
Murray Dueck
Oh, yeah. Where was the princess Bride? Princess bride? Yeah.

00;02;30;23 - 00;02;31;29
Joshua Hoffert
Inconceivable.

00;02;32;00 - 00;02;33;20
Murray Dueck
That's right. That's what that was.

00;02;33;20 - 00;02;36;18
Joshua Hoffert
I heard what that word means. What you think it means.

00;02;36;20 - 00;02;37;11
Murray Dueck
Stop that.

00;02;37;11 - 00;02;52;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Who goes? Where do you go? I guess you keep on saying that word. Yeah. You don't think it means what you think it means? Yeah, well, that's true, you know, that's that's true. It's. We got our blood boiling a little bit. So that's an endorsement for the Patreon. You guys should check out the Patreon that we've started.

00;02;52;02 - 00;02;59;17
Joshua Hoffert
Subscribers get all access to, R Murray and I r rants before we go live. Yeah, yeah.

00;02;59;17 - 00;03;00;16
Murray Dueck
And we get it all out.

00;03;00;16 - 00;03;02;03
Joshua Hoffert
Then we calm down so we can do it. Actually, I.

00;03;02;03 - 00;03;04;18
Murray Dueck
Think that was a pretty good heartfelt rant.

00;03;04;20 - 00;03;05;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;03;05;05 - 00;03;19;13
Murray Dueck
At, That's right. Which which I think, you know, it's good to see I think because, you know, I can see after our chat that I, I need to change my perspective a little bit. I can see you. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I got a so right good.

00;03;19;15 - 00;03;23;19
Joshua Hoffert
That's good. But and that's but that does actually lend itself to the topic.

00;03;23;24 - 00;03;24;03
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;03;24;03 - 00;03;53;05
Joshua Hoffert
It's a day right. It really does. Which we're we've been working through the rules of the spiritual life. Right. As, as written out by Father Luke of the the goose Chase Monastery in Nova Scotia as monks that became friends of mine after I went and visited, a number of different times for some spiritual retreats. You know, I, I loved I, I, I had some experience going to a Catholic monastery.

00;03;53;07 - 00;04;02;29
Joshua Hoffert
You know, there's not a whole lot of there's some, you know, there's some evangelical retreat centers you can go to. But it's different than going to a monastery where that.

00;04;03;01 - 00;04;04;27
Murray Dueck
People have a life of prayer.

00;04;05;00 - 00;04;12;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, there's a life of prayer. So you feel like. I felt like every when I went, I was entering into prayer. That was already happening, right?

00;04;12;29 - 00;04;14;03
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that's a good way to put it.

00;04;14;09 - 00;04;38;08
Joshua Hoffert
And, and so the Catholic ones were good, but I really like the Orthodox guys. When they said on, the first day that I ever visited them and I was down in the down in the little, room that they had given me, and one of the monks came down and knocked on the door and goes, would you like to join us for dinner?

00;04;38;10 - 00;04;47;08
Joshua Hoffert
We're having an Alexander Keith's. Would you be okay drinking? And Alexander Keith's with us. Was like, I love these monks, man. Yeah.

00;04;47;10 - 00;04;47;17
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;04;47;20 - 00;05;16;08
Joshua Hoffert
And, and so then we're we're sitting at the dinner table talking about life, about following God's scriptures. Very rewarding conversation in that sense. Right? You know, you kind of feel that those ebbs and flows, like, Augustine talked about those spiritual conversations where you ascend to the heights and, and at one point, Father Luke interjects, and he's the abbot of the monastery, a just a wonderful, tender old French man.

00;05;16;11 - 00;05;29;05
Joshua Hoffert
And, he goes at some monasteries, we sit in silence and there's readings of the fathers during dinner. But I find that boring.

00;05;29;07 - 00;05;31;24
Murray Dueck


00;05;31;26 - 00;05;37;01
Joshua Hoffert
So here we talk. And it was it was amazing, you know.

00;05;37;01 - 00;05;43;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that's quite a comment. I mean, there's a few places in, ever get to, you know, see, he would be slap to the fish for that.

00;05;43;12 - 00;06;14;28
Joshua Hoffert
He would be, I find that boring. So here we talk. And it was so funny. So, so I, I, you know, I've loved my time there and and what as we, as we've said in each one of these episodes, when you when you see someone like a father Luke or, or, you know, for you and your relationship with father Mike or a relationship with Steve or people that we look at and go, they have a handle on something that I'd like to have a handle on.

00;06;15;00 - 00;06;42;06
Joshua Hoffert
Right. They're soft, they're tender. You you spend time with them and you go, this person knows the Lord like they know the Lord. Right. And I want to know God like they know God. And, so Father Luke's one of those guys. And so I grabbed this, this pamphlet that they put out on living a Spiritual life ten rules for the Spiritual Life, the Daily Agenda, and just a.

00;06;42;08 - 00;07;05;15
Joshua Hoffert
And it's a way of framing how we see ourselves in the world. You know, we talk about things like spiritual disciplines, fasting, silence, solitude, prayer, scripture study, simplicity, these kind of things. I really don't like the term discipline because it implies a thing I do that I can accomplish. You know, it's like the discipline is working out. I'm going to discipline my children.

00;07;05;15 - 00;07;33;21
Joshua Hoffert
It also discipline my children. Well, it does. I'm going to discipline my children. So there's a legal ramification. I'm going to go to the church, go to the gym and be disciplined. So I go to the gym as an action of my discipline. Right. But the thing is, with the spiritual life, when it comes to silence and solitude, and this is where this rule really shines, is it's not so much a thing that I do.

00;07;33;23 - 00;07;43;05
Joshua Hoffert
The Desert Fathers would say something like this. A man can be a monk in the city or a city dweller in the desert.

00;07;43;07 - 00;07;44;07
Murray Dueck
Yes. Very well.

00;07;44;07 - 00;07;45;16
Joshua Hoffert
So that said.

00;07;45;16 - 00;07;46;23
Murray Dueck
That.

00;07;46;25 - 00;08;03;07
Joshua Hoffert
I can't probably a lot. It's in the. It's kind of. Yeah, it's in the it's in the sayings of the Desert Fathers. I'd have to look up who said it. I have lots, you know, off the top of my head, but that's not one of them. Right. So a man can be, city dweller in the desert or a monk in the city.

00;08;03;09 - 00;08;27;24
Joshua Hoffert
And that has more to do. That has to do with lifestyle. That hasn't. Doesn't have to do with disciplines that you enact. That means that I carry within me silence and solitude. And sometimes that's practically worked out when I sit in a room by myself. Right. But everywhere I go now, I'm in silence, in solitude, even when I'm surrounded by people because it's become a part of my life.

00;08;27;26 - 00;08;51;26
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And so the inner voice has been quelled. I'm aware that the presence of the spirit is with me, and when I go forth, I'm still going forth in silence and solitude. So they're rhythms that that are a lifestyle that help me to walk in step with the spirit. They're not a discipline I enact once a day or twice a day or whatever.

00;08;51;28 - 00;09;10;27
Joshua Hoffert
Right? There they are. It's like we've said this, right, that, the, the when you're going through your day. And again, this is where rule nine comes in. Very well, when you're going through your day and you go, oh, I haven't prayed in a while, right? I haven't thought of God in a while. And and there's two responses.

00;09;10;27 - 00;09;34;16
Joshua Hoffert
There's the response of, oh, I'm such a terrible person. I don't pray enough. I don't do enough. I should probably pray more. Right? The guilt and shame that comes over, that's the voice of the accuser that goes, well, let's not get them to pray right. Or there's the oh, I'm recognizing my need. My spirit's crying out. It's going, hey, we need this right now, right?

00;09;34;18 - 00;09;51;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. You. When you're trained yourself in it in the sense that you're it's become the lifestyle, right? Your your heart will naturally cry out for a drink. It'll go. We're thirsty again, boys, right. Yeah. And then you go, oh, okay. Right. Father. I'm here.

00;09;51;02 - 00;10;11;06
Murray Dueck
Not that, you know, that's so horrible. Such a good point. Because I was going to say something similar to that, that that for the fact that like like, let's see if we can explain this in such a way that would be helpful. You know, we're taught to be so performance and task oriented in our, in our Christian.

00;10;11;06 - 00;10;12;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right, right.

00;10;12;07 - 00;10;37;10
Murray Dueck
Which, which is, is out of your willpower and, and and then you're trying to connect your knowledge base to that. So you're judging it based on what you're doing, what you're thinking, how you're performing. Right. But if you want to take a step back for that, just a thought to Joshua shared, that part of you that goes, oh, we're not praying.

00;10;37;10 - 00;10;46;10
Murray Dueck
We need to do that right now. Why are you doing that? Why? Because you cannot approach. Got it? Nice. God draws you. I mean, that's scriptural, right?

00;10;46;12 - 00;10;46;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;10;46;22 - 00;10;53;13
Murray Dueck
So. So is that not a part of your heart that's responding to God pulling you?

00;10;53;15 - 00;10;54;01
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;10;54;05 - 00;11;01;10
Murray Dueck
And instead of going to the checklist. Oh, I didn't do it right. I didn't do it enough. Oh I got to push into this. Oh my goodness. Look at all the things I need to do.

00;11;01;12 - 00;11;01;23
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;11;01;28 - 00;11;18;23
Murray Dueck
What if in that moment you just went somewhere else, like, oh, I'm thinking about God right now. Lord, I just want to say you're beautiful and thank you for loving. And you just let that moment be holy and beautiful instead of trying to figure out what you should do about it.

00;11;18;29 - 00;11;20;06
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;11;20;08 - 00;11;34;09
Murray Dueck
Because when we think something to do about it, I'm not doing my spiritual disciplines, but then we're making it a legal thing. When you leave up some sort of an intimate, romantic thing that that we're being drawn to by the Spirit of God himself and learning to be aware of it.

00;11;34;12 - 00;11;39;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, it's part there. Those things are part of the current of your life, right?

00;11;39;06 - 00;11;39;19
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;11;39;25 - 00;12;00;19
Joshua Hoffert
And when you think of them as the dam that stops the clock, because that's how I think. I'm just thinking of this analogy. Right. Like the dam that stops the current. Right. So now I can spend time in silence and solitude. That's what the discipline is, as opposed to the thing that is within the current. I go, oh, the current now is moving this way, it's moving this way.

00;12;00;22 - 00;12;17;16
Joshua Hoffert
And so now I'm flowing with it as I go through my day and know now is a moment when the Spirit's beckoning me to turn my heart. And the thing is, it can be 30s. It could be 30 minutes. It can be one hour. It doesn't really matter. It's just, oh, my heart's going. I'm thirsty for a drink.

00;12;17;16 - 00;12;30;06
Joshua Hoffert
And I think, you know, this is most like. I like to say that when David wrote things like Psalm 42, that this is the kind of stuff he had in mind is, I'm thirsty. I'm in a dry and weary land. He's gone. My heart's crying out for a drink again.

00;12;30;13 - 00;12;30;26
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;12;30;29 - 00;12;52;26
Joshua Hoffert
So I'm going to turn myself in. So he goes when I. When I remember fondly the gathering of the people. My heart cries out, right. I pour my, I pour my spirit out. I pour my heart out before you. Lord. You know, this is the kind of language he uses in Psalm 42. And I think he just as a moment he recognizes his great thirst and he goes, oh, I'm in a dry and weary land.

00;12;52;26 - 00;13;10;26
Joshua Hoffert
I'm thirsty. My heart's crying out. So I'm going to turn to you in affection. Remember the gathering of the people. I'm going to pour my heart out to you. Yeah. It's like it's so practical, like weird. Like we we just don't even think about reading scripture from that practical standpoint. Yeah. So let me read point nine because we haven't even mentioned what it is just but it's impactful.

00;13;11;04 - 00;13;28;03
Joshua Hoffert
And we've gone through all of these points. Right. I'll just review them very quickly. Point one is seek self renunciation. Point two is accept to have no results, 0.3 is labor with endurance and prayer, 0.4 is accept to remain dry. Point five is trust. We had a big episode on that point. Six is.

00;13;28;05 - 00;13;29;15
Murray Dueck
18. Enter healing after that one.

00;13;29;16 - 00;13;53;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah that's right, that's right. Except to remain in darkness and confusion 6.7 is be thankful at all time point eight, which we talked about. Last, last time we were together. Get purified and keep in check. Point nine is be vigilant and attentive, so be vigilant and attentive. And so the the sub points to that are do only things that you can do with prayer.

00;13;53;29 - 00;14;05;12
Joshua Hoffert
Learn to make silence several times a day. Fight soulfulness and laziness. I think the the Desert Fathers would call that asset, city or city exact acedia.

00;14;05;14 - 00;14;07;05
Murray Dueck
Maybe that coffee.

00;14;07;07 - 00;14;09;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right.

00;14;09;13 - 00;14;11;15
Murray Dueck
I think that's what you said. It is actually correct.

00;14;11;20 - 00;14;38;11
Joshua Hoffert
The city. Yeah, yeah. Probably learned to wall out the world several times a day. Be convinced that you live in his presence. And so I, I love those points. Right. And so what we're talking about is, is essentially, learn to make silence several times a day and to wall out the world. So I would I would combine those two points, learn to wall out the world and make silence several times a day.

00;14;38;14 - 00;14;59;24
Joshua Hoffert
And so that that's the natural response to the heart that desires God is when those moments come, you wall out the world and make silence. Whether again, it's for 30s, whether it's for five minutes, whether because you know your your schedule is up, you sometimes you have no control over it in the sense or you have little control over it.

00;14;59;24 - 00;15;15;17
Joshua Hoffert
Right. You've got where we are. Yeah. For most of us, we can't go into the desert and live as monks. We either don't have the skills to do that, or there's no deserts nearby, or we have a family that we have to take care of. Right?

00;15;15;20 - 00;15;16;00
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;15;16;01 - 00;15;43;22
Joshua Hoffert
So we're subject to certain requirements. And, and so the thing is, with, with principles like these things, Guideposts like these things, rhythms like these things, not a single one of them is inapplicable to a person on the face of the earth. All right. That's I think that's what Seraphim of Seraphim says. You you turned me on to him a long time ago.

00;15;43;24 - 00;16;07;15
Joshua Hoffert
He goes, the one thing about prayer is it's available to every person at every time, regardless of how much money you make or how intelligent you are. There's not a single person that prayer is not available to. The more simple it is, the more effective it is because it has to be broadly applicable which a rule like this be vigilant and attentive is broadly applicable.

00;16;07;17 - 00;16;26;12
Joshua Hoffert
Any person, regardless of their lot in life, regardless of how busy they are or not busy they are right. I, I occasionally pick up, some extra work with a friend of mine, name, who has a tree service and so I there's once, once or twice a week. I tend to spend a day with him cutting down trees.

00;16;26;12 - 00;16;52;09
Joshua Hoffert
It's it's rigorous work. You know, I'm like, probably lose 20 pounds each day sweating. Hahaha. And, it's just like, there's, like, it's it's it can be brutal and, but nonetheless, there are still moments throughout the day where I'll feel that tug and I've got a chainsaw, or I'm dragging a giant branch and I'm going thankful. Thank you, God, for my family.

00;16;52;11 - 00;17;12;12
Joshua Hoffert
Thank you for my life. You're so beautiful. You're so wonderful, right I, I don't it it's doesn't just turn off because I'm doing something else, right. Yeah, yeah. The faucet is still going, and every now and then, I'm not saying I tune in every 30s or every 30 minutes, but my heart still makes those leaps where it goes.

00;17;12;12 - 00;17;38;17
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, something's tugging on me. Let's turn my heart and affection to the father. Right. And so I can do that. When I'm doing manual labor. Then the next day, I may be working on reports for, a leadership organization that I'm, walking with, you know, and I'm crunching through numbers and all of that. You know, you turn your brain off from the physical activity to that and going, the father still beckons the heart in the middle of that right.

00;17;38;20 - 00;18;00;07
Joshua Hoffert
And so there's no there's no part of life that can't be attenuated, to be vigilant and attentive, wall off the world and find silence not, not go to a silent place. That may be helpful, right? Maybe it is helpful to go to a silent place.

00;18;00;12 - 00;18;07;19
Murray Dueck
And I think, you know, it'll be good to come back to that. I think in the beginning, like if like, you know, there's a lot in.

00;18;07;19 - 00;18;09;14
Joshua Hoffert
The beginning, it's super helpful for sure.

00;18;09;14 - 00;18;16;26
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Because you don't know how to turn it off. Like, how do you turn it off every day if you've never had to turn it off? Yeah. So, like, when people talk to.

00;18;16;26 - 00;18;18;15
Joshua Hoffert
You, you don't even know what it's like to turn it off.

00;18;18;17 - 00;18;37;16
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah. So, like, if you talk about when Jesus says and it fits right here, come to me, learn to me, take up my yoke, I will give you rest. Right, right. So sometimes, like I know for me, the couple times in burnout, if I didn't have like this year and a half where I had to stop performing and it was a hell, you know?

00;18;37;17 - 00;18;37;28
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;18;38;03 - 00;19;10;16
Murray Dueck
Like, intermittent at work, he goes love. So to suddenly not be able to do it, you realize how lack of rest you have inside. But hopefully what you experience that you know, later on, you can just stop during your day and get back there right? You maybe need some external training for a while, but eventually this becomes an internal thing and and and you know, just back to this, I, you know, I would say if this is helpful,

00;19;10;19 - 00;19;33;17
Murray Dueck
You. Again, it depends on how you how you process everything. Right. So like like, for example, I remember one of the desert father said, you know, maybe a more modern guy. Don't remember who it is that, you know, when you're in love, you know, you just get engaged to your fiance. It you could be walking through the most evil, dark, stinky part of town and you don't smell experience anything, right?

00;19;33;17 - 00;19;33;29
Joshua Hoffert
So just.

00;19;34;05 - 00;19;39;00
Murray Dueck
In love with the person you're in love with because it's not about where you are, it's about what your heart is.

00;19;39;00 - 00;19;41;27
Joshua Hoffert
Doing. That's right. Yeah. And so it's a good point.

00;19;42;04 - 00;20;08;11
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And so and that's prayer that that's what that's what prayer is. That's that's an abiding relationship. So so if you think about that and let's say, let's say you can think of it like this, and I, you know, for everybody, I really think if you could all go read and I'm sure all of you listening to this have read this and you're probably yeah, I've read that Practicing the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence.

00;20;08;16 - 00;20;10;05
Joshua Hoffert
Oh yeah, that's a good one.

00;20;10;07 - 00;20;10;29
Murray Dueck
And I mean, here's a.

00;20;10;29 - 00;20;12;07
Joshua Hoffert
Guy super sympathetic.

00;20;12;08 - 00;20;13;23
Murray Dueck
For 40 years.

00;20;13;25 - 00;20;14;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;20;14;06 - 00;20;32;02
Murray Dueck
And was never a moment outside of the presence of God. And he he says, and it goes, I actually found that the systems of prayer keep me out of the presence of God. And, and and so I don't do them. Yeah. And. Well, what's he doing? He's keeping his heart in a loving attitude all day.

00;20;32;08 - 00;20;32;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;20;32;20 - 00;20;54;23
Murray Dueck
And but the thing is, you kind of first have to catch just like loving your spouse. I mean, so when if you're at work, do you quit loving your spouse, right? Like, does it stop like, like, you know, during the day, isn't there a part of you that still loving her, even though the other parts of you are busy, right.

00;20;54;29 - 00;21;13;03
Murray Dueck
So you kind of just have to go, oh, I just love my spouse. So once in a while you're going to go, I wonder what she's making for dinner, right? It happens. All right. Oh, I wonder what we should do later. You know, why are you thinking about that? Because your heart's more. And it's. It's full of love and I think most of us experience the opposite of this very easily.

00;21;13;05 - 00;21;25;01
Murray Dueck
When we're really mad at our spouse at all day, we're steaming. Yeah. You know, why are you steaming? Are you still working or are you still doing your stuff? But inside you're like, oh yeah, fair.

00;21;25;03 - 00;21;25;23
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;21;25;26 - 00;21;28;13
Murray Dueck
That's a form of inner prayer. Is this a really bad one?

00;21;28;16 - 00;21;29;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;21;29;19 - 00;21;34;29
Murray Dueck
That's right. But isn't that inner prayer? You have an inner thing going on that's connecting. You do a person.

00;21;35;06 - 00;21;35;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;21;35;29 - 00;21;40;28
Murray Dueck
And you can do all these other things. Yeah, but you can steam all day, right?

00;21;41;01 - 00;21;41;16
Joshua Hoffert
That's true.

00;21;41;19 - 00;21;45;05
Murray Dueck
But your inner world is alive and doing something independent, isn't it?

00;21;45;07 - 00;21;45;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;21;45;19 - 00;22;07;22
Murray Dueck
You just got to train that part of you instead of being steamy. The black cat just went right by, you know, that that part of you, if your inner being, if it connects to the Lord eventually, that's what it's doing. Okay, now, the cool thing is, once that happens and I visit this place, I do not live there.

00;22;07;25 - 00;22;08;04
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;22;08;05 - 00;22;41;23
Murray Dueck
Just so you know. So, But is that, believe it or not, if this makes sense, is that, having a life of work and and busyness, you can use it like fasting, right? You can actually use it because let's say, what what is your heart want to do? Oh, my heart wants to be with Jesus, right? But I'm going to sacrifice this for my family, for my children.

00;22;41;25 - 00;22;53;17
Murray Dueck
I'm going to sacrifice this time because it's the right thing to do. Because God wants me to love them, right? But, Lord, what I want is to be with you. But I'm willing to make this fast to.

00;22;53;17 - 00;22;54;27
Joshua Hoffert
Do this.

00;22;55;00 - 00;23;01;19
Murray Dueck
So you can actually use that as laying down your life as a fast.

00;23;01;25 - 00;23;04;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, well, every fast is a bit of a crucifixion, right?

00;23;04;24 - 00;23;16;21
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. So I, I don't know if I made that make make sense enough, but therefore you can actually use if your heart is like, this is what I want, but I'm willing to do this.

00;23;16;24 - 00;23;17;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;23;17;12 - 00;23;34;09
Murray Dueck
Because this is what God's called me to and I want him to receive, if this is what he's called me to, even though I'd rather be doing this, I wish to lay my down, down my life in joy. Right? And if you approach it with humility like that.

00;23;34;11 - 00;23;35;25
Murray Dueck
Then that love will flow in your heart.

00;23;36;03 - 00;23;45;01
Joshua Hoffert
And how. And that's so important, Marie, because how you frame what you do determines how you do what you do.

00;23;45;03 - 00;23;46;05
Murray Dueck
Well, yeah, yeah.

00;23;46;05 - 00;24;08;15
Joshua Hoffert
If you frame it in a way that says, you know, you can go to your job and go, oh, I hate doing this. I wish I was doing something else. And, you know, I'm only doing it because that's stupid family. And if I didn't have that family, I could do this and this and this or. Father, I'm sacrificing myself on your behalf for these people that you've given me because you love them.

00;24;08;15 - 00;24;16;19
Joshua Hoffert
And I want your love for them, right? How you frame it changes entirely dramatically, especially what you reap out of it, right?

00;24;16;19 - 00;24;20;04
Murray Dueck
Yeah, exactly. And then that can be that can be inner prayer, humility or.

00;24;20;05 - 00;24;20;23
Joshua Hoffert
Totally.

00;24;20;26 - 00;24;30;15
Murray Dueck
Or surrender to prayer. So that's why in the Orthodox Church, when a couple gets married, they actually hold a crown over each of their heads because it represents the crown of martyrdom.

00;24;30;17 - 00;24;35;04
Joshua Hoffert
Oh yeah. Well, it is a martyrdom. Marriage is a martyrdom. Absolutely. You know, if.

00;24;35;09 - 00;24;50;23
Murray Dueck
It's this laying down your life. But but if you do it, it can be humility and a place to render and, and you can experience that. And that is the doorway to prayer. Oh I love I don't make sense. But no.

00;24;50;23 - 00;25;08;27
Joshua Hoffert
It makes so much sense. I love what you were saying. You know that the analogy of the marriage, right. Which is, which is we've talked about that at great length the because that the verse you quoted in, Matthew 12, I think it's Matthew 12, where I come and learn of me. Yeah, yeah. And I'll give you rest.

00;25;08;27 - 00;25;25;11
Joshua Hoffert
Right. The you know, it's funny what I, what I find, not that you did this because you were making a point, but what I find a lot of people, when they think of that verse, they forget the middle part. And it's come and learn of me because we both desire rest, right? We're so busy. They want rest. So they.

00;25;25;12 - 00;25;29;14
Joshua Hoffert
So they go, come and learn of me. I'll give you rest. Your weary I'll give you. Yeah. They cut out.

00;25;29;14 - 00;25;30;25
Murray Dueck
All the steps you gotta take.

00;25;30;28 - 00;25;33;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And it says come on, move me.

00;25;33;05 - 00;25;34;10
Murray Dueck
Take up my yoke.

00;25;34;13 - 00;25;39;05
Joshua Hoffert
Take up my yoke and learn of me. My heart is meek and lowly.

00;25;39;07 - 00;25;40;18
Murray Dueck
Yeah, right. That's right.

00;25;40;21 - 00;25;59;23
Joshua Hoffert
So when he says come and learn of me, he says, what you're going to learn is about his meek and lowly heart. When you learn about his meek and lowly heart, it's an invitation to rest. It's not. Come and learn of me. I'll give you rest. It's come and learn of me. Learn my heart and my heart will invite you to that place of rest, right?

00;26;00;02 - 00;26;08;12
Joshua Hoffert
Which is so different than then, because otherwise it becomes legal. Right? Come to me and I'll give you rest. Right. It's a transaction.

00;26;08;16 - 00;26;09;03
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah.

00;26;09;04 - 00;26;30;21
Joshua Hoffert
Come to me. You'll know. You'll begin to know my heart. Right? So. So my point in saying that is the the the like. If you think about when you, when you first found that spark, you know, for your significant other, whether it was a dating relationship, you can use the analogy whether you're married or not. Right. Because somebody but some people are listening.

00;26;30;21 - 00;26;55;19
Joshua Hoffert
They're not married. But but you've you've been attracted to someone, right? It's not a thing you plant. You didn't reason yourself into the attraction, right? You saw her or him and you went, whoa, right. That's, that's it just it clicked right when you saw them. And maybe they did something. Maybe they said something. You went on a date and the conversation was there or whatever, right?

00;26;55;19 - 00;26;57;22
Joshua Hoffert
But it was like, whoa, right.

00;26;57;22 - 00;27;00;28
Murray Dueck
It just happens again a reaves whoa.

00;27;01;01 - 00;27;25;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Whoa. Yeah. It just happens to you. Right. And and you know, whether the whether the relationship ended in marriage or it didn't I'm just saying that there was a moment that you went, whoa. That was you know, you can go into the chemical reaction of it and why it all happens and all that stuff. But it wasn't a they look attractive, so I want them.

00;27;25;12 - 00;27;41;29
Joshua Hoffert
It was whoa. And and the point my point is the, the because you had said you you made the point that when my heart's going, I want to drink. It's because I don't start that myself. He starts it and initiates it. Right.

00;27;41;29 - 00;27;43;16
Murray Dueck
You can call that the whoa moment if you want.

00;27;43;17 - 00;28;06;29
Joshua Hoffert
The moment exactly like the whoa moment happens. And now my heart is sensitized, right? So the whoa moment is come. He's already revealed himself. Come and learn of me. Whoa. Right, I presented myself. Now we go. Whoa! Right. And. And so now we come and start to learn about his heart. Right? So I've got my whoa moment he's initiated.

00;28;07;05 - 00;28;25;14
Joshua Hoffert
He's the point of contact, right? We think even in the grand scheme of things, the father goes, I love the world. So I'm going to send my son to see what I look like so that they'll come to me. Right? So he initiated even in the, in the, in the broader scheme of the revelation of God in the man Jesus he initiated, right?

00;28;25;14 - 00;28;45;03
Joshua Hoffert
He goes, I'm going to reveal myself. So he reveals himself. The heart opens to the revelation, come and learn of me, right? The heart opens to the revelation. We see what he's like, right? We learn about his tenderness, his. That's the meek and lowly heart. We learn about his tenderness and his affection. So our heart warms to him.

00;28;45;05 - 00;29;17;25
Joshua Hoffert
And then in our striving, we find ourselves in a place of rest, right? Not because we've stopped work or stopped life because. But it's because we've entered into that love moment with him. Right? The affection of the father, inviting us to that place to learn of him. So that's that is is from the from the, the, the bigger revelation of Jesus, you know, the grand scheme of, of God revealing himself to his creation.

00;29;17;25 - 00;29;58;25
Joshua Hoffert
He's always the one initiating. All we're doing is responding to the whoa. Yeah. Like that. And that's really the the I should pray now. I haven't prayed in a while. I'm feeling thirsty. That's my heart going. Whoa, right. It's like I'm. I'm all of a sudden arrested because something else has happened. And now if I, if I begin to live this life of rhythm, the current of the spirit, I go, I need to wall myself off and just sit with that affection, because that's really, you know, that that that moment of prayer, prayer is nothing else but the application of desire.

00;29;58;27 - 00;30;00;08
Joshua Hoffert
That's really what it is.

00;30;00;11 - 00;30;01;15
Murray Dueck
Good way to say that.

00;30;01;15 - 00;30;15;13
Joshua Hoffert
Thus, I kind of riffed that off of Madame Guion. So it's it it's the application of desire. It's it's you can go back to the various of agree. I said it's the ascent of the intellect towards God. The news, the heart. Right.

00;30;15;13 - 00;30;17;25
Murray Dueck
Well, that's that's a good. Hey. So keep going.

00;30;18;01 - 00;30;43;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, but that's that's what prayer is. I've walled myself off because of the revelation. My heart's gone. Whoa. And I'm going because. Because, you know, when when you see your significant other and there's that spark, right? Like, you're. I mean, you can't see, like, I remember the moment, the first moment Aaron and I kissed right? I couldn't tell you anything about what surrounded us.

00;30;44;01 - 00;30;52;21
Joshua Hoffert
I just know we were there and she was there. Yeah, right. Nothing else mattered. The rest of the world had faded.

00;30;52;24 - 00;30;53;17
Murray Dueck
Faded away.

00;30;53;23 - 00;31;15;15
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And there's still moments where she walks in and I'm like, oh my goodness as well. Looks great. Right? And I get a whoa! And momentarily everything else fades and I've got my wife is right there, right. And it's like, it's like that the the whoa happens. The world is walled off. I enter into the tenderness of his heart.

00;31;15;20 - 00;31;32;13
Joshua Hoffert
I find myself in rest. And now I have the wherewithal to continue my day. Because I'm. I've found the thing that satiates me right. I think it's all but Pombo or no other Pullman. One of the two. I got a mixed up. He said, don't give your heart to that which doesn't satisfy your heart.

00;31;32;13 - 00;31;33;04
Murray Dueck


00;31;33;06 - 00;31;34;14
Joshua Hoffert
Right. It's the simplest.

00;31;34;14 - 00;31;36;25
Murray Dueck
Instruction even have doomscrolling back, you.

00;31;36;26 - 00;32;00;02
Joshua Hoffert
Know he did. That's right. That's probably why he was a desert father. Maybe he would have doomscrolling himself out of the the monastery and, the. Don't get it. Don't give yourself to that which, doesn't satisfy your heart. And so we get the. Whoa. We all the world off, we enter into that place and and realistically, it.

00;32;00;04 - 00;32;24;09
Joshua Hoffert
Well, he's like father Luke says it's probably going to happen several times a day. And we can we can plan for it. Right. You can send a notification in your phone that goes, oh, that's right. You know, I this is something I want to do. Or it can happen organically. Both are both are valuable and yeah. And like I've got I've got notifications that pop up.

00;32;24;11 - 00;32;39;22
Joshua Hoffert
The problem with phone notifications is you eventually learn to ignore them. But I do have phone notifications of pop up, like, turn your heart to God and pray and stuff like, and, and they and, you know, sometimes not all the time, but sometimes there are. Oh, yeah. So.

00;32;39;24 - 00;32;56;07
Murray Dueck
Well, if you don't mind, I'm just going to take a little bit of a little crazy rabbit trail here that. Yeah. And, and back. Right. So you know everyone if you think again noose and and that's this, this crazy word, the inner man, the heart.

00;32;56;09 - 00;32;57;08
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Yeah.

00;32;57;10 - 00;33;05;04
Murray Dueck
And and so if you think at that moment that. Oh, I want to remember to pray that there's that moment, that spark that will.

00;33;05;04 - 00;33;05;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;33;05;29 - 00;33;22;25
Murray Dueck
That that's where it's happening. But there's, there's other parts of us doing other things, you know, the desert Fathers who would say that verse, you know, love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. It represents that word where, I think dissipated. I think it's that word they use. So.

00;33;23;00 - 00;33;23;18
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;33;23;20 - 00;33;36;11
Murray Dueck
You could be sitting in church and, and, you know, part of your is listening to the sermon, your backsides hurting in the pew or the hockey game or the football games about to start the kids or and you're all over the you're dispersed. There's dispersion. Right?

00;33;36;13 - 00;33;36;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;33;36;18 - 00;34;05;14
Murray Dueck
But the idea is with love your God with all your heart, my mind so and so. If you pull it all back together, it's pulled back together. And and it starts with how does that happen? It starts with that simple. I have a longing. That's it. That. Yeah, that's the beginning of that. And and it starts with just a, a recognition that somewhere deep inside of you that that it's, it's surpasses emotion, it surpasses intellect, it surpasses.

00;34;05;14 - 00;34;08;24
Murray Dueck
Well it's, it's in you going, oh I really want this.

00;34;09;00 - 00;34;09;20
Joshua Hoffert
Like, yeah.

00;34;09;20 - 00;34;40;11
Murray Dueck
What is that. Well there's a spark from heaven there. And it's, it's first off accepting the invitation. Right. You got to accept that. And and and realize you just have to let it live. Now here here's where. See if I can make this make sense. The journey of this. So those got you guys listening to this, I hope have been on a journey and and to to get here either a,

00;34;40;13 - 00;34;55;16
Murray Dueck
What. God. It just life is at work at the conservative circle entirely because you need more, right. Or you could be on the other extreme where you're like Josh and I, who have gone from that into the charismatic circle and realize this ain't working either.

00;34;55;19 - 00;34;57;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, this one's not working either.

00;34;57;00 - 00;35;15;02
Murray Dueck
Yeah, but there's a part of your heart again, a part of you inner man that is dissatisfied, right? Just think you're new again. There's there's something going on in there. You're you're responding to something. Right? That that's a part of prayer if you want to put it that way, something inside of me says it's to be right how?

00;35;15;09 - 00;35;34;27
Murray Dueck
You know, if you're here, how much of the day is that running? I would say quite a bit. Right. You know, and to realize that's not just your intellect and that's not just your emotions. The feed that to go look at that and go, I am hungry, I want more and go, I want this to live, Lord, I want this inner part of me to flow, okay?

00;35;35;00 - 00;35;57;12
Murray Dueck
And just that's a good place to start, you know, and and you would give that sucker a little prayer to pray. That's an arrow prayer, Saint Augustine would say. And you just learn to let it flow. ABBA, I belong to you. Right? So something like that. Now here is to give it quickly how the flow of this works.

00;35;57;19 - 00;36;03;24
Murray Dueck
And again, forgive me for playing fast and loose with this because I'm going to play a little bit fast.

00;36;03;24 - 00;36;05;26
Joshua Hoffert
We forgive you. I forgive you anyway.

00;36;06;01 - 00;36;13;14
Murray Dueck
So thank you. Needs to forgive me ahead of time because I'm still going to do it. So sometimes it's easier to ask forgiveness. And it is ask permission right.

00;36;13;17 - 00;36;14;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

00;36;14;17 - 00;36;31;11
Murray Dueck
So I'm just going to go with that. So yeah. So so think about your again your inner man lining up. Right. So Paul says Paul's in prison. People are freaking out. They think he's going to die. He says, hey I pray God would strengthen your inner man. So think of that little spark in there going, whoa, right? Yeah.

00;36;31;14 - 00;36;41;15
Murray Dueck
Some Christ may dwell in your heart by faith wise. You realize that's going on. You're starting to look at him and invite him. Your heart's going, hey, I want a little more of this. Right. So.

00;36;41;15 - 00;36;41;27
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;36;41;28 - 00;37;08;18
Murray Dueck
You know, a high and wide and long a deep is a love of Christ. So suddenly you're experiencing love as you, you know, on this journey that your past is good. Notice that you may be filled all this fullness of God. So there there's a thing. So. So when you're on a journey of inner change and you let this little spark live, this little whoa moment, you know, first off, you know, once you're that far right.

00;37;08;20 - 00;37;27;23
Murray Dueck
And I would suggest to get that far, you've kind of had to go through a bit of a desert, right? Sure. As in the way I'm doing life with just my intellect or the way I'm doing life with just needing people to prophesy isn't working. I need some inner thing going on. Right. So it's, you know, I would suggest you've changed a belief system to get that far right?

00;37;27;25 - 00;37;29;18
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;37;29;20 - 00;37;35;05
Murray Dueck
Once you're there, though.

00;37;35;07 - 00;37;55;18
Murray Dueck
If you think of it like this, let's say, to get here, let's say to get here, let's go back to that. You will probably you've had to have some inner conflict of, oh, am I really willing to walk out of my old camp? Am I really willing to do this? What are people going to think if I start going to the Desert Fathers?

00;37;55;21 - 00;38;16;01
Murray Dueck
Oh my goodness. So you have a lot of your inner turmoil. There's a part of you that says, I really want this, and this is a part of it that goes, what's it going to cost? Does that make sense? So there's a there's a very for a variation of things happening inside of you. Right. All all very real and legit and eventually you're going to have to make a choice, you know, as we all do.

00;38;16;01 - 00;38;35;15
Murray Dueck
Am I going to pursue this or am I going to keep it in the closet, or am I going to go back? Those would be your choices eventually. What will happen, hopefully side of the cross is that you're going to go, you know what, I want this. I want to understand. I don't care anymore what people think. I don't care about my past.

00;38;35;15 - 00;38;54;03
Murray Dueck
I'm going to pursue this. Well, when your spirit starts to do that, your mind and your emotions start to back up. What's going on in your spirit now? You don't care about what friends think. You don't care what church culture you came from. You just need this. And when you get that, suddenly you want to find books and podcasts and things.

00;38;54;03 - 00;39;15;12
Murray Dueck
And because suddenly now you're feeding the fire to pursue rather than, you know, hiding in the background. And when that happens, your heart is starting to open up. Your news is starting. The fire and your mind and your emotions are becoming the servant of your desire for Christ. It's starting to flip around, right? That's a process of inner development going on there.

00;39;15;12 - 00;39;41;19
Murray Dueck
And that happens not just with being drawn to certain theological ideas or camps. It also happens with inner prayer, where certain costs and prices, if we let that spark live, finally, we go, you know what? I just, Lord, I want to sacrifice all these external things to find you. That's what I really want. Lord, I, I, I did want to go to the hockey game.

00;39;41;19 - 00;39;48;07
Murray Dueck
I did want to do all these things. But Lord, I just as long as you let the little spark live and you feed it.

00;39;48;09 - 00;39;49;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;39;49;09 - 00;40;09;25
Murray Dueck
And you don't ignore it, and you just. Yeah. And you let it live. Eventually that thing's going to get bigger and your insides are going to start to line up there, right? I want more, my heart hungers. I slept, but my heart was awake. My dear, my soul pants. His insides are lining up with the desire for this.

00;40;09;25 - 00;40;29;18
Murray Dueck
And things are starting to come into into order. And that just takes time. But it starts with that little spark and just going. It is there, Lord, I honor it. Yeah. If that's all you did during your workday when it popped up, Lord, you came to my mind. I love you and I honor you. I'm so thankful.

00;40;29;21 - 00;40;30;16
Joshua Hoffert
Absolutely.

00;40;30;19 - 00;40;44;21
Murray Dueck
And that's all you did. That process right there is going to start to happen, right? Yeah. That that fire is going to fire up and eventually your mind and emotions are going to go, you know, we should be spending time on this a little bit more.

00;40;44;24 - 00;40;46;01
Joshua Hoffert
You know, right.

00;40;46;03 - 00;41;04;00
Murray Dueck
That there's a bit of an automatic thing that starts out because you're, you're letting the river flow and, you know, if you just do that and essence, I would suggest that is practicing the presence of God by Brother Lawrence right there.

00;41;04;02 - 00;41;10;27
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. You know, I'm I had this thought the other day and you're making me think about it.

00;41;10;27 - 00;41;14;23
Murray Dueck
Yeah, right. Just, I'm in a mood today, everybody. I'm sorry.

00;41;14;24 - 00;41;26;21
Joshua Hoffert
It it's that it's the the term righteousness. And I want to talk about, I want to just mention this, and then maybe we can talk a bit about the.

00;41;26;24 - 00;41;28;00
Murray Dueck
We need to get on into the.

00;41;28;08 - 00;42;08;02
Joshua Hoffert
The sub point is fight slothful in this and laziness. Right. Because that that's the issue at hand when it comes to this. The the thought was because the, the word for righteousness in the Old Testament literally means to be straight, right. That's like that's that's the word words. Quite simple. Right? It's to be it's straight straightened. And and I was thinking about this, that one of the greatest evidence, evidences of righteousness, is, is I was thinking about it in terms of one of the I was reading one of the Psalms, and it talks about the righteous judgments of God.

00;42;08;02 - 00;42;15;05
Joshua Hoffert
Right. I was going to what God says is the same thing that God thinks.

00;42;15;08 - 00;42;16;06
Murray Dueck


00;42;16;08 - 00;42;40;03
Joshua Hoffert
Right. So righteousness is essentially the at least the evidence of it. I don't know if you would define it as this thing because now we're talking about and I'm thinking the mystical theology and Dionysius and the, the, the, the essence of God and the energy of God, right. All that. But so the, the evidence of righteousness is when the mouth says, what?

00;42;40;03 - 00;43;05;29
Joshua Hoffert
The heart stinks. And because that's the straight path, right? The straight path between the mouth and the heart, the mind and the heart have now straightened themselves out. And so what comes out of the heart is what the mouth says. And what comes out of the mouth is what the heart is thinking. What the mind is wrestling with is what the heart is thinking.

00;43;06;02 - 00;43;25;25
Joshua Hoffert
So there's a connecting point, right? So the the mount of the mouth and the heart are lined up. So what what I so I was just thinking about that with what you're saying is the when everything is lined up right, when everything is in working order essentially that's righteousness.

00;43;25;27 - 00;43;27;24
Murray Dueck
Is that's a good way to say the.

00;43;27;24 - 00;43;56;17
Joshua Hoffert
System is the system is performing to its desired effect. Right. It's restore and essentially it's, it's restored back to its working order. This is how God designed it to work, that the heart would be alive in a flame to the presence of God, that the mouth would be speaking the things, the hearts thinking that the mind would be dwelling on those things, and that the inner man would be alive to that world.

00;43;56;19 - 00;44;31;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, right. So now everything is straight, right? Righteous. The evidence of righteousness. Now, is that what the mouth is saying? The heart is thinking. And, but that's a that. And so when you come across someone like that, they're fascinating. They're really factual. I'm thinking of a clip from The Office, the TV show, you know, where, Daryl and, Daryl, the head of the warehouse, he's dating Mindy Kaling's character.

00;44;31;03 - 00;45;00;16
Joshua Hoffert
I can't think of her name right now. And, there's, What is it? Anyway, Mindy Kaling's character, right? And she's the in the she works in the in the back of the office, and she's like the the like, crazy, you know, and, and she starts dating Daryl and, he's, he's just direct and tells her what you want.

00;45;00;16 - 00;45;22;29
Joshua Hoffert
What he wants. No, I'm busy tonight. I got to spend time with my sister or whatever. Right? And then it clips over to her, and she's being interviewed, and she's going. She goes. I mean, he says everything that he wants. Who does that? Right? Just like, stunned that his communication is directed to the point. Right. Who does that?

00;45;23;01 - 00;45;39;16
Joshua Hoffert
But that's it's so stunning to us when someone actually says what they mean, and they mean what they say. It's like, who does that? Nobody does that. We all have hide and we all hide between behind smoke and mirrors and shadows and try and convince everybody to like us. And we put a facade and a front out.

00;45;39;16 - 00;46;03;11
Joshua Hoffert
And who says what they mean? Like it's it's the one of the most attractive qualities you can find in a person. Right? I think that's one of the things that one of the many things or one of the things that when Jesus said something, he's like, he actually believed it and lived it right? When when he says when he has the audacity in Matthew six to say, be anxious for nothing, they're going, that's so offensive.

00;46;03;11 - 00;46;24;10
Joshua Hoffert
But he but he also lives that way. And we can see the evidence of it. Right. And it's like the mouth and the heart have said the same thing, and we don't know what to do with that, and we don't know where to categorize it. And, and, and part of it begins in, as you're saying, where are we right going?

00;46;24;13 - 00;46;51;08
Joshua Hoffert
Let's honor that time. As small as it might be that my heart is going, I want I want to be a conscious of this spark, and I'm going to honor it. Right? It can start in that small little microcosm of a moment, and it can grow to be this over. When this is Jesus, right? We can grow to be this overwhelmingly large tree that's taking root inside of you.

00;46;51;10 - 00;46;52;02
Murray Dueck
Right? Yeah.

00;46;52;04 - 00;46;53;10
Joshua Hoffert
Is a little seed.

00;46;53;12 - 00;47;13;04
Murray Dueck
You know, I, you know, Sir Gregory of Nyssa could be I always get him and Nanjiani and mixed up. But one of those guys said, you know, you know, water flows downhill. That's what it does. But if you put it in a pipe, you can make it go straight up, right? And that the heart is like that once you, you know, just dissipation, you bring it all back together.

00;47;13;07 - 00;47;29;15
Murray Dueck
Love the Lord God with all your heart, mind, soul, strength. If you can make it go right up and and you know that it starts with that little spark. But I would suggest everybody, when you think about that little spark, you got to keep in mind that.

00;47;29;17 - 00;47;39;09
Murray Dueck
If I can again, sorry to make this make sense. As a as a charismatic, what you would think of is that little spark is come Holy Spirit. Where is it.

00;47;39;14 - 00;47;40;23
Joshua Hoffert
Manifest? Yes, God.

00;47;40;26 - 00;47;53;27
Murray Dueck
I'm looking for it. And I would suggest to you. Yeah, yeah, that's true. But I would suggest to you, if you're not feeling that, that's fine, because a hunger, that little spark is those who hunger and thirst.

00;47;53;29 - 00;47;54;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;47;54;10 - 00;48;12;10
Murray Dueck
That's right will be filled. So focus on like, I'm just so hungry for God. Present that as an offering and let it live inside and say, Lord, this is what I want. And guess what? I think that's the Holy Spirit in you calling out to the father. Absolutely. Well that's theology. How is that part of God doing that with that part of God?

00;48;12;10 - 00;48;17;05
Murray Dueck
And but again, you can't come to the father unless he draws you. So. So then who's initiating that?

00;48;17;05 - 00;48;17;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;48;17;29 - 00;48;36;19
Murray Dueck
So you need to embrace that even if it's like, oh, this is a bit uncomfortable. I just long for God. What if that long isn't just your longing for God? What if it's his longing for you and he's pulling you into a big embrace and you just got to start there? I let the pipe. That's the pipe.

00;48;36;22 - 00;48;38;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;48;38;23 - 00;48;42;00
Murray Dueck
Let that water flow through that pipe and then see where it goes.

00;48;42;00 - 00;48;42;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;48;42;22 - 00;48;42;26
Murray Dueck
Right.

00;48;42;27 - 00;48;50;19
Joshua Hoffert
Well, that's he's got the sub point. Father Luke has written the sub point, which is exactly what you just said. Oh, I be convinced that you live in his presence.

00;48;50;22 - 00;48;51;18
Murray Dueck
Oh, there you go.

00;48;51;25 - 00;49;03;15
Joshua Hoffert
Right. That's that's it right there. Right. If you're if you have convinced yourself you don't, then the then the responding to the moments feel meaningless because then it becomes about what I get out of it.

00;49;03;22 - 00;49;04;05
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Yeah.

00;49;04;09 - 00;49;05;11
Joshua Hoffert
Is a living brow.

00;49;05;17 - 00;49;23;18
Murray Dueck
Doing it like, yeah. You know, where I find myself today, to be honest, is that I, I really need to hear myself say what I just said because I, you know, the dogs escaped and they go across this road that's pretty busy. And there's a puppy involved, and they've done this three nights in a row. And my wife is mad and it's my kid's birthday.

00;49;23;18 - 00;49;34;19
Murray Dueck
And which is, you know, that's all fine. And I'm just like, I have so much to do. And people are upset and freaked out. One of my dogs are killed. The parent of these guys got killed a year ago on this road.

00;49;34;20 - 00;49;35;09
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;49;35;11 - 00;49;54;19
Murray Dueck
So and then but if I take that and I go, oh, right now I need to try to find God, right? Oh, man, I'm so frustrated. I can't find I'm so upset about all these things. This makes me mad because I can't find it. But what if I focused on my desire to find him?

00;49;54;21 - 00;49;57;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's a great point. Yes.

00;49;57;03 - 00;50;07;08
Murray Dueck
Right. Because that I still have in the midst underneath all of this, I still have a desire to. But because of all the emotional flotsam and jetsam, I can't.

00;50;07;11 - 00;50;08;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;50;08;04 - 00;50;24;10
Murray Dueck
But if I quit making it about a goal rather than a desire, right. I can flop that around. Right? And then suddenly I do. So I mean, I so I, you know, I need to drink my own medicine today.

00;50;24;12 - 00;50;30;03
Joshua Hoffert
Well, you're but then that's. But that brings us to another one of the sub points to, that maybe you could. Maybe I.

00;50;30;06 - 00;50;30;12
Murray Dueck
Want to.

00;50;30;12 - 00;50;53;14
Joshua Hoffert
Speak to this is is what I just said. Fights lawfulness and laziness. Right. Which is, which is again contextualizing why you do what you do becomes so important. Right. It's not Oh, I've got so many other things to deal with. It's it is. Oh the desire is still there. It's the undercurrent. Right.

00;50;53;17 - 00;50;58;20
Murray Dueck
Yeah. It's it's buried under all that stuff, you know, and.

00;50;58;23 - 00;51;20;02
Joshua Hoffert
It'll pull you up, like, you know, that you, lived out here for a while. So you're familiar with the Fraser River right in the west coast of Canada. They they always say, don't go swimming in the Fraser River because the undercurrent is very dangerous. Yeah, right. You can't see it is below the surface. But if you try and navigate it, you'll be sucked right under right in a way.

00;51;20;03 - 00;51;34;27
Joshua Hoffert
You know, it's it's a horrible thing. People have drowned because of it. But in. Yeah, what I'm saying is in a way that's what begins to develop, is that there's an undercurrent that you can't see all that, all the stuff is floating on the top, the emotions, you know, you said the flotsam that floats them in the jetsam, right?

00;51;34;27 - 00;51;42;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. All the stuff that's floating on the top, you go to navigate it. If you spend all your time on the top, you're going to run into trees, right?

00;51;42;29 - 00;51;43;23
Murray Dueck
Absolutely.

00;51;43;28 - 00;52;07;24
Joshua Hoffert
But if you go actually, there's an undercurrent that's pulling me down, which is Psalm 42 again, that's pulling me down. And now I can go, even if I don't sense or I'm aware of his affection, I know my hunger is still there. So the hunger becomes the prayer. Yeah, right. So the problem is we reason. So the fighting's lawfulness and laziness.

00;52;07;24 - 00;52;29;13
Joshua Hoffert
Those are two those are loaded terms. Right. So when it comes to the teachings of the of the Desert Fathers in the Desert Mothers and the contemplative tradition in general, those two things have been talked about ad nauseum, like it does not just being lazy. They're talking about specific spiritual attitudes towards life that you have to fight against.

00;52;29;16 - 00;52;50;08
Joshua Hoffert
There's there is the I'm thinking of Father Maximus in the mountain of silence, right? The sicknesses of the soul. Yeah. Those would be part of part good. Part of it is the sicknesses of the soul. And so going, oh, actually, it's not about whether I get filled or find the water to drink. It's about the desire that's still there.

00;52;50;08 - 00;53;15;03
Joshua Hoffert
So I'm going to recognize and honor that desire. I'm not going to let all of the, you know, the trees at the top of the river determine the course of how I navigate the current. Yeah, I'm going to be pulled down by the undercurrent. And I'm still moving along right. Because the undercurrents there. But now I'm down. I'm down deeper and I'm, I'm in touch and aware of.

00;53;15;09 - 00;53;25;04
Joshua Hoffert
There's a desire that's part of me that's crying out for the father. And whether or not I'm touched or not isn't the important part. The important part is the desire is there.

00;53;25;06 - 00;53;27;29
Murray Dueck
And sometimes everybody is your neighbor. Yes.

00;53;28;02 - 00;53;54;29
Joshua Hoffert
That is exactly yes. Sometimes I'm aware of his presence. Yeah, I I'll say it this way. Sometimes prayer is prayer and sometimes prayer is practice. And it's sometimes prayer is by faith. Sometimes prayer is by feeling. And, both of those things are true. And you're going, I'm turning my heart in affection to God. I'm recognizing my desire and there's nothing there.

00;53;54;29 - 00;54;21;24
Joshua Hoffert
What's there is the desire, and that's what's important. Yeah, right. So the slothful nurse and the laziness are our spiritual attitudes that are connected with. It's in terms of the Desert Fathers and the contemplative, authors slothful this and laziness, our spiritual attitudes associated with demonic entities that distract you and pull you away from the life of prayer so that you'll never recognize the undercurrent.

00;54;21;27 - 00;54;44;12
Joshua Hoffert
And what they'll do is they'll convince you that what you do, that they'll keep you focused on what you don't have and that what you need to acquire. Okay, well, I don't have space for silence, and so I need to wait until the next time. Right. So that's how that attitude in that the thought will manifest is I will constantly think about the next time.

00;54;44;12 - 00;54;58;17
Joshua Hoffert
And then when I have a next time, I'm thinking about the next time. Right. And so that's it. That's the slowness and laziness. And the other thing is it will constantly think about, you know, what I don't have and then think about the future moment that I could have.

00;54;58;24 - 00;54;59;05
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;54;59;06 - 00;55;18;09
Joshua Hoffert
Right. So and it's, it will fight against me from sitting in that desire regardless of what I'm doing, driving down the road in the car, typing at a keyboard, swinging an ax or a chainsaw. You know, Murray might be in the back with his tractor picking up piles and piles of cow manure.

00;55;18;11 - 00;55;18;21
Murray Dueck
Never.

00;55;18;24 - 00;55;21;10
Joshua Hoffert
Right. He had never, never ends. Right now.

00;55;21;10 - 00;55;21;27
Murray Dueck
It's about.

00;55;21;27 - 00;55;50;02
Joshua Hoffert
Lawfulness and laziness will attack at all of those moments and say, just wait for the next time you know there'll be another time. And being present in the moment with the desire and awareness that he's present with you, whether you feel it or sense it or not. But he he's delighted in your desire for him, and that you your desire is the, is the whoa moment.

00;55;50;05 - 00;56;02;09
Joshua Hoffert
And, you know, if you were to spend all of your time thinking about this way. Right? If you were to spend all of your time like, like, you know, if I, if I was on a trip, let's just let's just say you're on a trip away from your spouse.

00;56;02;09 - 00;56;02;27
Murray Dueck
You are on a.

00;56;02;27 - 00;56;19;25
Joshua Hoffert
Trip, right? You're on a what? Your trip is away from your spouse. So you have able to talk to them in a week. You get home and you tell your spouse all the times you thought of them. All the times you're affectionately reminded of them. How much your spouse goes. I feel so loved even though there was distance.

00;56;19;27 - 00;56;45;25
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Like, because that's honoring the memory of the person, that's that doesn't diminish the love or the intentionality that you didn't get to express that in the course of your, you know, your time away because of whatever reason. Right? It becomes a beautiful moment where you get to reconnect and partner, and your spouse feels loved and they feel cherished, and you feel the affection and you're like, wow, that was so wonderful, right?

00;56;45;27 - 00;56;49;25
Joshua Hoffert
Just because there's distance doesn't mean the relationship has waned.

00;56;49;27 - 00;57;07;00
Murray Dueck
And, you know, maybe there's some that up. Everybody just think because I think we've all experienced that. I hope think of it like this. When it comes to that little moment, that spark happens, and you're busy and stuff's going, I think about it like calling home, just like, oh, my heart's doing a calling home moment.

00;57;07;01 - 00;57;08;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;57;08;03 - 00;57;12;18
Murray Dueck
Yeah, because that's that's what it is, right? It's right.

00;57;12;20 - 00;57;14;05
Joshua Hoffert
ET phone home.

00;57;14;07 - 00;57;15;29
Murray Dueck
ET for a phone home right there.

00;57;16;00 - 00;57;20;23
Joshua Hoffert
The whole movie has here. He wants to find his spaceship. You know, that's the whole movie.

00;57;20;26 - 00;57;22;15
Murray Dueck
Right? Yeah. There you go. Eat phone up.

00;57;22;17 - 00;57;23;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;57;23;02 - 00;57;24;11
Murray Dueck
So. But if you.

00;57;24;14 - 00;57;26;00
Joshua Hoffert
Journey trying to find the spaceship.

00;57;26;01 - 00;57;27;09
Murray Dueck
Perfect thing.

00;57;27;12 - 00;57;28;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;57;28;29 - 00;57;36;04
Murray Dueck
Because. Yeah, that's that's kind of what it's like. Your heart is alive, and you. Oh, I got to call my spouse or. No, she's doing and and.

00;57;36;05 - 00;57;36;24
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;57;36;27 - 00;57;40;08
Murray Dueck
You know, you're busy doing stuff, but it's percolating in there.

00;57;40;14 - 00;57;42;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right, that's prayer.

00;57;42;25 - 00;57;58;27
Murray Dueck
That's that's I think the I think the, you know, I'd have to look it up. But when the Bible says pray continually, I think, I think the word actually in one of those passages is, is rest, you know, stay. Right. You know, it's this heart thing, right?

00;57;59;00 - 00;57;59;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;57;59;05 - 00;58;03;17
Murray Dueck
So and we interpret it as a doing thing instead of a being.

00;58;03;19 - 00;58;16;22
Joshua Hoffert
You know, I what I, what I found, what I realized, I didn't I never realized before one of the things I noticed, recently is, Jesus tells us to pray unceasingly.

00;58;16;25 - 00;58;17;12
Murray Dueck
Oh.

00;58;17;14 - 00;58;22;05
Joshua Hoffert
You know, I, I, I had no, I just never even.

00;58;22;07 - 00;58;24;06
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Where's that? What's that? What are you quoting there?

00;58;24;06 - 00;58;46;29
Joshua Hoffert
Well, now I've got to know. I've got to find because I made a note about it. Yeah. I was like, oh my goodness. There it is. Right there. And, I don't remember where. I'm sure I wrote it down. Yeah. That's right. Luke 18, the Luke 18 one. Listen, I never even I never even considered this, right.

00;58;47;01 - 00;58;52;03
Joshua Hoffert
I thought Paul was the one who talked about us, so. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Luke 18 one or James.

00;58;52;03 - 00;58;55;00
Murray Dueck
Right. Next. Elijah was a man like us. Said he prayed.

00;58;55;03 - 00;59;03;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Now he was telling them a parable to show that at all times they ought to pray and not to lose heart.

00;59;03;13 - 00;59;04;05
Murray Dueck
Yes. At all.

00;59;04;12 - 00;59;07;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yes, at all times. They ought to pray and not to lose heart.

00;59;07;07 - 00;59;09;07
Murray Dueck
I thought he was just telling them at all times.

00;59;09;09 - 00;59;20;22
Joshua Hoffert
And it's the. It's the persistent widow and the judge. It's to pray. And so unceasing prayer is right within the context of Jesus's teaching on prayer. Wow. Cool, right? I just like the widow.

00;59;20;22 - 00;59;21;18
Murray Dueck
When the judge bumps.

00;59;21;18 - 00;59;29;18
Joshua Hoffert
Up on the widow and the judge, even if you don't get the response, continue to put your petition forward. It's exactly what we've been talking about, right? Yeah, yeah.

00;59;29;19 - 00;59;30;06
Murray Dueck
That's cool.

00;59;30;08 - 00;59;52;17
Joshua Hoffert
So unceasing prayer. Continue to put yourself in the place of I need you, I love you, this is who I am. This is what my life is like. Thank you so much for what you've done for you, putting yourself in that place, right? And don't lose heart. That's that which is which is essentially Father Luke's. Be convinced you're always in his presence.

00;59;52;17 - 01;00;02;15
Joshua Hoffert
Don't lose heart right. And, eventually you'll reconnect and he'll go, oh, I so appreciated all of that. You know, I feel so loved and cherished.

01;00;02;18 - 01;00;03;03
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

01;00;03;03 - 01;00;04;12
Joshua Hoffert
And it's a beautiful thing.

01;00;04;14 - 01;00;05;02
Murray Dueck
Well said.

01;00;05;09 - 01;00;09;28
Joshua Hoffert
So. Well, I think with that, we could probably call this episode.

01;00;10;00 - 01;00;14;26
Murray Dueck
Yeah, there's more on this, to touch on, but, there's always another day.

01;00;14;26 - 01;00;34;06
Joshua Hoffert
There's always another day. There's always more to talk about. And, so for those of you that made it all the way to the end, check out our Patreon. Right. You'll see the link in the yeah podcast description. And, where we where we kind of dive in a little bit more and maybe get a little more personal and talk about some of the things we're wrestling with.

01;00;34;06 - 01;00;53;00
Joshua Hoffert
And so you'll be able to follow along on that journey. And we appreciate all the Patreon supporters, and we appreciate anybody that's listening to. But all the Patreon supporters are. That's awesome. So thanks everybody so much for tuning in. And Murray, it's always a pleasure to spend the time with you. And, you know, as always, everybody God bless.

01;00;53;02 - 01;00;59;09
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And I'm going to go put a hot wire line on a hole in the fence just to see what happens.

01;00;59;12 - 01;01;04;06
Joshua Hoffert
Sounds like an entertaining time. Don't forget to think about Jesus.

01;01;04;08 - 01;01;06;06
Murray Dueck
Jesus. Well, I do.

01;01;06;09 - 01;01;09;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yes, in a very legal, transactional way.

01;01;09;24 - 01;01;12;10
Murray Dueck
And I'm going to listen for a while.

01;01;12;12 - 01;01;14;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Yes.

01;01;14;09 - 01;01;15;12
Murray Dueck
And then oh, my pressure.

01;01;15;12 - 01;01;24;19
Joshua Hoffert
Will go fix all your problems. That's right. Exactly. Yes. That'll be good. Good. Well, everybody, we love you. And until next time.

01;01;24;22 - 01;01;25;23
Murray Dueck
Okay. Bye, everybody.