The Prayer Rule: Guideposts for Transformation

Join Josh and Murray as they dive into the final rule of the Communion With Jesus The Daily Agenda from the monks at Goosechase Monastery and Nova Scotia. What does it mean to have a "rule of life"? In the earliest monastic writing, simple instructions were given to disciples like when Anthony the Great said, "Whoever you may be, always have God before your eyes; whatever you do, do it according to the testimony of the holy Scriptures; and in whatever place you live, do not easily leave it." These translate into guideposts for the spiritual life. They point you in the right direction. 

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Transcript

00;00;17;21 - 00;00;19;18
Murray Dueck
We're on to all the.

00;00;19;18 - 00;00;22;04
Murray Dueck
Things that go straight up, right?

00;00;22;05 - 00;00;22;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah.

00;00;22;26 - 00;00;25;00
Murray Dueck
Like that's us. You know where it's like you realize.

00;00;25;00 - 00;00;26;09
Joshua Hoffert
That I've got a.

00;00;26;09 - 00;00;33;15
Murray Dueck
Little bit broken, like. Yeah, well, everybody is. How did you discover that?

00;00;33;18 - 00;00;37;25
Murray Dueck
Go. How did you discover that?

00;00;37;28 - 00;00;50;06
Murray Dueck
How did you discover that? How did you discover that? And how did you discover. How do you do that?

00;00;50;08 - 00;00;52;16
Murray Dueck
Oh.

00;00;52;18 - 00;00;55;17
Joshua Hoffert
Welcome, everybody, to another episode.

00;00;55;17 - 00;00;56;17
Murray Dueck
Of.

00;00;56;20 - 00;01;03;08
Joshua Hoffert
Voicing this role. Who doesn't? It doesn't. Oh, doesn't.

00;01;03;10 - 00;01;10;02
Murray Dueck
000, that is my most laid back. Coyote howl everybody.

00;01;10;05 - 00;01;11;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;01;11;02 - 00;01;11;16
Murray Dueck
I didn't know.

00;01;11;22 - 00;01;13;07
Joshua Hoffert
How I was thinking the monster, which I did.

00;01;13;08 - 00;01;31;26
Murray Dueck
So badly. Well, I keep wanting to do when we do the coyote horror and you do the intro, I keep wanting to do the, John Cleese, on the, Trojan rabbit from, from Monty Python with his eyes. You're like, like.

00;01;31;26 - 00;01;33;24
Joshua Hoffert
I want to. Yeah.

00;01;33;27 - 00;01;37;10
Murray Dueck
That's that's what I was going to do. I was good at that. Said, no, I'll just play it.

00;01;37;13 - 00;01;51;22
Joshua Hoffert
I played that clip. One time I was teaching a course on hearing the voice of God. I played the clip of. And I said, this is what most people assume God is like when he speaks. We know when his voice appears in the clouds. All right, stop groveling.

00;01;51;25 - 00;01;55;15
Murray Dueck
And, what are you doing now? We're diverting our eyes. Stop it!

00;01;55;18 - 00;01;58;24
Joshua Hoffert
But, yeah. So that's like, this is what most.

00;01;58;24 - 00;01;59;14
Murray Dueck
Of us.

00;01;59;16 - 00;02;00;23
Joshua Hoffert
Assume.

00;02;00;25 - 00;02;04;00
Murray Dueck
In these dark times. Good idea. Oh, Lord God, it's a good idea.

00;02;04;00 - 00;02;15;22
Joshua Hoffert
Good idea. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. Let's I think I think that's a do you actually think it's like, you know, like he's always mildly annoyed with every way that we respond to him, you know.

00;02;15;25 - 00;02;22;01
Murray Dueck
Don't make me come down there. It's like you're fighting with your brother in the basement, and your dad goes down the stairs.

00;02;22;03 - 00;02;23;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's right, that's right.

00;02;23;17 - 00;02;24;14
Murray Dueck
It's not like that at all.

00;02;24;19 - 00;02;35;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. See, I was thinking, you know, on the Monster Mash song, I do the most. Oh, with or so. Yeah. So I think there's like a, a wolf owl in there or something, you know?

00;02;35;03 - 00;02;37;20
Murray Dueck
Yeah, there is, right near the end.

00;02;37;23 - 00;02;38;21
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. So I have.

00;02;38;21 - 00;02;40;13
Murray Dueck
To steal that.

00;02;40;15 - 00;02;47;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Anyway, well, we're on, we're on the, final EP. Maybe the final episode. Maybe it'll be a two parter. We'll see. Yeah.

00;02;47;06 - 00;02;51;20
Murray Dueck
You know, of, the ten rules of.

00;02;51;23 - 00;03;40;28
Joshua Hoffert
Ten rules of the spiritual life, the daily agenda for communion with Jesus Christ. It's, it's a document here on this camera. If you're watching on the camera, that the the abbot of the monastery in New Germany. Yeah, in Nova Scotia, where you can no longer hike, apparently. And, the goose Chase monastery that they have put together and compiled what, a daily agenda would look like when it comes to a, rule for the spiritual life or, you know, we were just saying a new the word the term rules can carry such, like, a few.

00;03;41;00 - 00;03;42;28
Joshua Hoffert
I mean, like, break the rules. Am I in trouble?

00;03;42;28 - 00;04;01;23
Murray Dueck
You know what really shows our Western culture? We're so sure you've been in. God is a judge and so rule everybody. Just think about it like this. Gravity. Like you gotta have some thoughts in place. If you're walking along a cliff and you're like, I don't believe in gravity. And off you go. Why you a rule? Don't walk too close to a cliff.

00;04;01;25 - 00;04;07;07
Joshua Hoffert
Ball in Romans eight calls the spirit of, life in Christ Jesus a law.

00;04;07;10 - 00;04;08;26
Murray Dueck
Right? Well, there you go.

00;04;08;28 - 00;04;30;12
Joshua Hoffert
The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus. No longer are we subject to the law of sin and death, but it's the law of so. So he talked. And so what is a law? Do a law dictates in an in almost an unperceived way, how someone is going to behave and act right? It gives the guidelines in the post for what it looks like to be a functioning member of society.

00;04;30;15 - 00;04;40;11
Joshua Hoffert
So that's really what we mean when we're talking about rules is it's a, it's it's not Murray and I's terminology. We probably wouldn't talk that way typically.

00;04;40;11 - 00;04;40;27
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Yeah.

00;04;40;28 - 00;04;50;04
Joshua Hoffert
But in terms of the monastic wisdom of the church of Church history, it's a very common language for, you know, like it's.

00;04;50;04 - 00;04;51;08
Murray Dueck
Quite it's quite interesting.

00;04;51;09 - 00;05;09;14
Joshua Hoffert
Like Anthony the Great Being asked, what must I do to be saved? Do these three things and you'll be saved. That would be a rule of life, right? Yeah. But where everything you do have got ever before, your eyes always read the Holy Scriptures. And whatever place you find yourself in, don't easily leave it. Those would then translate into rules of life for that particular disciple.

00;05;09;16 - 00;05;26;13
Murray Dueck
Right. And so you get the word religious. You're so religious, I mean, you that term is actually a medieval term where somebody is, in a, in a religious order, to the religious, you know, it's like, but then we've, we've made it a bad thing. We have. Yeah. So really and.

00;05;26;13 - 00;05;55;15
Joshua Hoffert
I get there are, there are negative connotations that are legitimately there. Right. The don't show if you show up to church on time, you're a bad crew. If you don't show up to church on time, you're a bad Christian, you know, like we do have, unspoken rules that when you contravene them, people look down on you. So there's there's something to be said for the the brokenness in our culture and how we think about that.

00;05;55;15 - 00;05;59;11
Joshua Hoffert
We're just Marie and I are just trying to make a distinction between that and what we're talking about.

00;05;59;11 - 00;06;14;22
Murray Dueck
Well, and you know that this would be another talk. We we might have to have father Mike on for this, but, it's interesting that the Orthodox Church, you didn't show up whenever you want to, right? It doesn't matter. I mean, most people even just show up for the end, for communion. And in our Western tour, we church, we go, wow.

00;06;14;25 - 00;06;16;04
Joshua Hoffert
We would look askance at them.

00;06;16;04 - 00;06;26;22
Murray Dueck
Yeah, you lazy blah blah blah. Because Christianity is showing up on time and they're doing this in the right order and that means I'm close to God, unfortunately.

00;06;26;25 - 00;06;52;16
Joshua Hoffert
Was there's a quote from Brendan Manning. He says, like, we've basically made the gospel, we've made the gospel a God that has created a group of people who will open the door for us to open the doors for other people, and, and, follow all the rules or not swear, I think, is what he says.

00;06;52;19 - 00;06;53;11
Murray Dueck


00;06;53;13 - 00;07;00;14
Joshua Hoffert
But something like that. It's it's it's real. Like he he has some cutting things he says about that. Yeah.

00;07;00;16 - 00;07;16;22
Murray Dueck
Anyway, I get to hear that. Well, okay. Well I'll keep going. So. But anyway it's a good it's a good point just to go. How I mean right there I mean that exposes our Western basis for, well how it should work. So we follow rules. Tell everybody there's we would consider that breaking.

00;07;16;27 - 00;07;25;15
Joshua Hoffert
Let's put this let's put it this way for Murray and I okay. We're both married, right. To stay in covenant marriage, we have rules we follow.

00;07;25;18 - 00;07;26;03
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;07;26;05 - 00;07;40;08
Joshua Hoffert
They they're just intrinsic. They're intrinsic because we love. Right? So we go, I'm I'm not going to entertain the pursuit of other women. Right. That's a rule. If we're going to say it that way. We could say it that way. That's good.

00;07;40;08 - 00;07;41;14
Murray Dueck
That's a good way to explain it.

00;07;41;14 - 00;08;04;03
Joshua Hoffert
I love my wife. So the rule is followed not because I put the rule in place, but because I have the inner witness of love within and it creates a, a, a line that I won't cross because of love, not because I need to earn her love or fulfill the requirement to of loving her, but because I actually love her.

00;08;04;05 - 00;08;04;16
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;08;04;18 - 00;08;06;25
Murray Dueck
So that's how she very well. And I think.

00;08;06;27 - 00;08;07;07
Joshua Hoffert
That's what.

00;08;07;07 - 00;08;09;01
Murray Dueck
We're gonna say about this, because that was perfect.

00;08;09;05 - 00;08;12;20
Joshua Hoffert
There we go. Okay, so rule ten, rule ten.

00;08;12;20 - 00;08;13;18
Murray Dueck
Because I.

00;08;13;20 - 00;08;17;24
Joshua Hoffert
Mean, everything's changed in here, and I want to point my life in the direction we'll say, yeah.

00;08;17;26 - 00;08;18;27
Murray Dueck
Because that way.

00;08;18;29 - 00;08;19;17
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;08;19;19 - 00;08;20;17
Murray Dueck
So good.

00;08;20;20 - 00;08;25;03
Joshua Hoffert
Rule ten. Have a prayer. Rule.

00;08;25;06 - 00;08;26;03
Murray Dueck


00;08;26;05 - 00;08;56;03
Joshua Hoffert
So rule ten means have other rules. Rule. And, so I love that most of the rules so far. I'll just run through them real quick. I have have been, you know, kind of more principles and, and context for how you put yourself into the world. Right. So rule one, seek self renunciation. There's practical aspects to that.

00;08;56;03 - 00;09;16;25
Joshua Hoffert
But that's also a lifestyle. That's a frame of mind. That's how I, how I live my life. Except to have no results. Right. That's another this is context for how I live and what I do, labor with endurance and prayer. There's some practicality to that. Yeah, except to remain dry. Right. That's another frame of mind and context is how I live my life.

00;09;16;28 - 00;09;37;01
Joshua Hoffert
So a lot of these are minds, not so much mindsets, but lifestyle choices that I adopt in order to facilitate the life of prayer and communion with Jesus. So I'm creating space in my life. They're helpful for creating space in my life, for the Holy Spirit to come and move within. Right? Trust. Except remain in darkness and confusion.

00;09;37;01 - 00;10;04;00
Joshua Hoffert
Be thankful all the time. So we've gotten out and, get purified and keep in check. Be vigilant and attentive. And now number ten is have a prayer room. So now we're going down to the practicality of it. All right. So I love that the first nine points really are setting the attitude of the heart and going, this is what the heart in communion on a daily rhythm would look like, right?

00;10;04;04 - 00;10;28;21
Joshua Hoffert
The heart would look like I don't care about myself. I want self renunciation, right? The heart would look like I'm thankful at all times. The heart that is in daily communion with Jesus would look like a heart that is getting more and more purified from things that would separate it from God or separate God from it. So the heart is vigilant and attentive and keeps and keeps in mind the holiness of God.

00;10;28;21 - 00;10;55;17
Joshua Hoffert
Right? So this is points one through nine are really attitudes of the heart. Point ten is now how do we do this right. And and so point ten could have probably ten sub points. So have a prayer role. Make time for it. Don't be lazy or slothful. That's the that's the sub point. Right. And that's those terms lazy and slothful.

00;10;55;17 - 00;11;33;28
Joshua Hoffert
Both have connotations towards that. You know, there's a whole there's a whole and a whole there's, there's a couple different terms that are used in the dessert literature for those they're both spirits, lazy and laziness and slothful. This one is called the, or Ecdc setting or something like that. And the other one, I can't think of the term off the top of my head, but but there's they're there the, the the the CD is characterized, I think, by the, the laziness of mid-afternoon, you know, low.

00;11;34;00 - 00;11;40;28
Joshua Hoffert
Are you going to succumb to that. And so they would identify that as a spiritual influence and.

00;11;41;00 - 00;11;42;09
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Well, and so there's.

00;11;42;10 - 00;12;04;11
Joshua Hoffert
Some there's a lot of thing that to the laziness and lawfulness thing. And so then Father Luke goes on to say in the document, here's the, here's the prayer rule he suggests. And I've actually talked to him about this. And so this is in line with, what he says. And actually in, in the book that they have put out the little booklet on lectio divina.

00;12;04;13 - 00;12;29;16
Joshua Hoffert
That you can find on their website the goose Chase monastery website. There is a, the he talks about this as well. And, and so he's, he's pretty consistent in this. And as a side note, everybody, you should go join our Patreon. Does it's we have a Patreon where we engage with people. We have, pre-roll footage that we show behind the scenes footage that we show.

00;12;29;16 - 00;12;44;24
Joshua Hoffert
You get video content months before anybody will get it on YouTube or any other channel or platform. And so join our Patreon. You support the channel and, help us to keep going and let us know what you're thinking about, how you're impacted by this stuff. So yeah,

00;12;44;27 - 00;12;53;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah, we hope for it for us. And, again, we absolutely, absolutely about, just a brief little chat. It'll show up on the Patreon about.

00;12;53;15 - 00;12;59;26
Joshua Hoffert
What constitutes ministry. Yeah. Big topic. So here's the.

00;13;00;04 - 00;13;23;26
Murray Dueck
What are you, a shout out, actually? Oh, this is something, just to a little tiny book like. And it's on this kind of stuff. It's written by a Catholic guy. Don't know much about him other than I found this book at the, mission Abbey, which is huge, right? Yeah. And I would recommend if you guys really like this and you want to break it down, this is a fabulous a fabulous little book.

00;13;23;29 - 00;13;25;12
Murray Dueck
And, I don't know what.

00;13;25;12 - 00;13;27;22
Joshua Hoffert
You don't know what he's about to share.

00;13;27;27 - 00;13;49;14
Murray Dueck
Jack. Philip thirsting for prayer. Oh, there it is. Yeah, it's a little book, but I actually, you and I should actually go through this. It's good. Yeah. It's great. What is at stake in prayer? Prayer is a response, a call. Love. Living freely, which we just talked about, affords us to the kingdom. Conditions for prayer to be fruitful.

00;13;49;14 - 00;14;09;02
Murray Dueck
Prayers. A place for an inner peace. The disposition that makes for a fruitful, gateway to faith. Presence of God, God's presence in nature. God, gives himself and humanity. Practical advice for prayer outside time of prayer. Establishing a rhythm. Beginning and ending prayer. We're just going through all this stuff, but it's it's, you know, really good.

00;14;09;02 - 00;14;22;10
Murray Dueck
Everybody, if you're like, oh, where do I find more? I would recommend this little book. And, again, Catholic cares. I'm sure this guy's a charismatic again. I can't prove this. Well, I pretty sure, because I read a bunch of.

00;14;22;10 - 00;14;23;26
Joshua Hoffert
A way of talking, right?

00;14;23;29 - 00;14;46;02
Murray Dueck
Yeah. So, anyway, Jack Felipe thirsting for prayer, if you're like, oh, man, I need more info, I would, I, you know, I'm a big, everybody I'm really big on getting outside my church culture. So, I mean, you got to take the meat and spit out the bone. So, I mean, so you don't buy everything, you take it back to the Bible and you bounce it off people, and you check the fruit of the spirit, and it's in confirmation.

00;14;46;03 - 00;14;47;15
Murray Dueck
I do the same thing, Marie.

00;14;47;18 - 00;14;48;00
Joshua Hoffert
So.

00;14;48;00 - 00;14;54;29
Murray Dueck
But but again, like, like just our thought about, You know.

00;14;55;05 - 00;14;57;21
Joshua Hoffert
Here at Murray, I do the same thing with you.

00;14;57;24 - 00;15;06;02
Murray Dueck
O.G. oh, well, that's what you should be doing. I'm so sorry. I thought you made with me. As in, no, no, no, no, but I read his book.

00;15;06;02 - 00;15;10;08
Joshua Hoffert
Right. You check the bones out, keep the meat together. No, I'm.

00;15;10;08 - 00;15;13;17
Murray Dueck
Just. Oh, you're talking about. Sorry. I thought you were with me. No.

00;15;13;20 - 00;15;16;23
Joshua Hoffert
No, no, at you. I'm not. You.

00;15;16;26 - 00;15;20;03
Murray Dueck
Oh. That explains a lot, actually. Why you gave me that certain look once in a while.

00;15;20;07 - 00;15;26;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. Anyway, I don't know what the look is, but it's probably something like.

00;15;26;03 - 00;15;42;03
Murray Dueck
I think it's it's almost the old squint. It's good. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like. Yeah. Anyway, I just throw that out because, a good resource. Everybody's good to find, resources that Josh and I have tripped upon. And you can guess, right? Wow. Yeah. So that's one, one of mine that I dug up. So there you.

00;15;42;03 - 00;15;50;00
Joshua Hoffert
Go. Good. Oh, that's really good. That's a good. If I all. I'll look for, a link to that and see if I can put it in the description of the podcast.

00;15;50;02 - 00;15;50;21
Murray Dueck
Definitely.

00;15;50;24 - 00;15;57;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah. Because we want to help resource people when it comes to this stuff. So there'll be a link to the goose Chase Monastery in Nova Scotia.

00;15;57;08 - 00;15;58;14
Murray Dueck
Absolutely.

00;15;58;16 - 00;16;06;28
Joshua Hoffert
Because all this stuff we know, we're we've stumbled into a lot of it and are going, man, this would have been so helpful to have known 20, 25, 30 years ago, right?

00;16;06;28 - 00;16;07;22
Murray Dueck
Absolutely.

00;16;07;22 - 00;16;14;22
Joshua Hoffert
And, 30 years ago, if you talk to Murray 20 years ago, if you talk to me. So, that's, Anyway, yeah.

00;16;14;23 - 00;16;27;05
Murray Dueck
If you're new to that, to this, you know, go back to our first two episodes, everybody. And. Yeah. How did we stumble into, you know, most of us end up here because we were like, we're on the island of Misfit Toys.

00;16;27;05 - 00;16;28;29
Joshua Hoffert
Trade offs, right? Yeah, yeah.

00;16;28;29 - 00;16;38;27
Murray Dueck
Like that's us. You know, where it's like, you realize, man, I'm, a little bit broken. Like you realize, well, everybody is. How did you discover that episode you wanted to.

00;16;39;03 - 00;16;51;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Or you could also listen to that whole interview we just put up with, Father Andrew Miller. Right? Where? Yeah, same same deal. He's like, I don't fit here. So.

00;16;51;02 - 00;16;58;25
Murray Dueck
Yeah. So anyway. And then you find resources on the way going. Well, I'm not the only one like. Yeah. And that's one of them. So yeah.

00;16;58;27 - 00;17;10;11
Joshua Hoffert
That's good. So back to the rule. Yeah. So this is this is his suggestion for a Rhythm of prayer. And and I like how it's more all encompassing than just a daily okay.

00;17;10;12 - 00;17;11;09
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;17;11;11 - 00;17;32;03
Joshua Hoffert
So he goes twice a day. That's the first suggestion. Once in the morning and once in the evening. And Father Lucas, so I know he says this, that, it should be in the same place on the same day or same place, same time. So 6 a.m., 6 p.m. got hour, 7 a.m., 7 p.m., 5 a.m.. So they.

00;17;32;04 - 00;18;09;05
Joshua Hoffert
I know the monks in, I'm pretty sure their morning is. It starts at 4 a.m., if I remember right. It starts at 4 a.m.. This the particular monastery, and they do 45 minutes of lectio divina and 45 minutes of the Jesus Prayer. And then they have their first service and then they do breakfast. And, so that's the that's the I'm pretty sure it starts at four because I think the, the service, the first services like 5 to 5, 530, I think it's 530, something like that.

00;18;09;07 - 00;18;20;29
Joshua Hoffert
But that's kind of their when you call it, when he says their rhythm. Yeah. And so then they do the same thing at night, 45 minutes of lectio divina, 45 minutes of yeah. There's more within that. Right. But that's for.

00;18;20;29 - 00;18;21;14
Murray Dueck
Sure.

00;18;21;15 - 00;18;49;14
Joshua Hoffert
That's their morning and their evening. That's what the practice is going to be. Right. So that's same time, same place then. Once, once a week, take an extra 2 or 3 hours. So whether that maybe that Saturday or Sunday, you, you are more intentionally taking time in prayer once a month, spend a full day.

00;18;49;16 - 00;19;11;12
Joshua Hoffert
So schedule a full day out once a year, make a retreat a couple of days to get away and and, what? Remember we've talked about the you've you've shared this the story of the pastor who goes off. Yes. You know that his counselor says, go take a couple days and, and he had such a good time reading books and he couldn't spend time with himself.

00;19;11;12 - 00;19;12;10
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And so he.

00;19;12;10 - 00;19;19;15
Murray Dueck
Goes, what? Yeah, yeah, the counselor goes, I didn't tell you to read books at work on sermons. And because what? I drive myself crazy.

00;19;19;18 - 00;19;20;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, exactly.

00;19;20;09 - 00;19;28;04
Murray Dueck
And that way you're giving to your congregants every week, like, yeah, what in you flows out. Right? So if you don't have that piece, what are you giving the other people?

00;19;28;06 - 00;19;51;11
Joshua Hoffert
So then he says, what do you do in these morning and evening, in the full day in the extra three to out three, two or in the extra few days. Right. You pray using a prayer book? It could be the Book of Common Prayer. You know, it could be a, a, you know, a book that, like, Murray just popped up.

00;19;51;11 - 00;20;04;14
Joshua Hoffert
Right? It's a book that helps, not a book. The point is, it's not a book for education. That's not what he's saying. Not a book about prayer, but a book with prayers in them that is engaging your spirit. In that sense.

00;20;04;16 - 00;20;31;22
Murray Dueck
We should talk about that, too, because that's an important thought, because I know early on for me. Yeah, as a charismatic, I remember in like year 2000 meeting with Mike Stewart, he was, an Anglican priest of, kind of a charismatic Anglican church, right? Small c charismatic and, and and embarrassingly, I mean, again, I had already burned out the episode one of of.

00;20;31;24 - 00;20;33;07
Joshua Hoffert
Other voices from the Desert.

00;20;33;09 - 00;20;51;16
Murray Dueck
Bible and, but even still, I remember him saying to me, oh, yeah, you know, we don't have to like you charismatic. You don't have to come up with prayers on the spot all the time, because we have this book of Common Prayer. And in my head, I thought, wow, that's horrible, right? Just that's awful. You got to read these freakin prayers.

00;20;51;16 - 00;20;59;07
Murray Dueck
It's like back in my childhood Mennonite church. Stand up, sit down, turn to page 145. Go up for pie, go home. Right. You know, it's like.

00;20;59;10 - 00;21;01;08
Joshua Hoffert
And best part of that is the pie.

00;21;01;10 - 00;21;23;19
Murray Dueck
That's part of the pie. That's right. Basically, it misses keys. Rick made it. But but the thing is, you have to understand with when it comes to common prayer books that think about how you read the Psalms, everybody. That's kind of like a book of common Prayer. How many times you've read the Psalms? What in your lifetime?

00;21;23;22 - 00;21;24;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;21;24;21 - 00;21;41;15
Murray Dueck
Do you just go? I've read it already. You throw it out. No, you don't. You go, oh, I've, I've met God here. Psalm like right now Psalm 63 is like my Psalm today. I don't know why. And because something out of there triggers your heart response. Yeah, but if you do it enough, it just doesn't trigger a heart response.

00;21;41;15 - 00;22;03;05
Murray Dueck
It also triggers memories of the times you've met God in that song previously. Right? So think of it as a difference between you go to Grandma and Grandpa's place. This is how it used to be. And suddenly they bring out this slide projector and it's got the big round slides, not the little ones like. And they're like, we're going to have a family time and you know, they're laughing and they think it's great.

00;22;03;05 - 00;22;24;22
Murray Dueck
You look at the same thing I'm going to die. Kill me. You don't know those people, right? You know it's right. You're going to die for you. It's it's an extra step, Arrhenius. Think. But when you do the Book of Common Prayer and God starts to speak to you, and it's a heart thing when you go back to it, it's like you have memories like your grandparents did on those slides.

00;22;24;24 - 00;22;44;13
Murray Dueck
And but you have to, you know, you have this wonderful history of the church of Prayer. And if you can pray them from the heart and mean it from in here, right? Not just read it from your brain. Right. So therefore incorporating those things into your life, if you use it that way, eventually you build memory like you do with the Psalm.

00;22;44;13 - 00;22;56;25
Murray Dueck
Yep. It gives you words like, oh my goodness, the church prayed this. My heart comes alive if you do it like that. It's a wonderful tool to to use it in common prayer every day for sure, right? I just want to.

00;22;56;25 - 00;22;57;13
Joshua Hoffert
And funny enough.

00;22;57;13 - 00;22;59;09
Murray Dueck
In the past I couldn't do that because.

00;22;59;16 - 00;23;07;27
Joshua Hoffert
The the second print use a prayer book. The next part of that, the next, the next phrase in the sentence is or the Psalms.

00;23;07;29 - 00;23;09;06
Murray Dueck
Oh, well, there you go. Right.

00;23;09;06 - 00;23;27;25
Joshua Hoffert
So yeah, exactly what Murray is saying. That's that using a Book of Common Prayer. The thing is, these things, the Psalms especially, and the Book of Common Prayer, they give us language, right, and ways of expressing ourselves to God and show us what it's like when someone expresses themselves to God.

00;23;27;29 - 00;23;28;27
Murray Dueck
Exactly.

00;23;29;00 - 00;23;30;24
Joshua Hoffert
And it's really a beautiful thing.

00;23;30;25 - 00;23;44;26
Murray Dueck
I'll give you an example of that, if you don't mind. So every what the with the Orthodox part of the morning prayer, in the evening prayer, there's a little piece I think it's called the trend sig on. I think I could be really wrong about that. Everyone, please forgive me, but it goes like this. Glory to you.

00;23;44;26 - 00;24;05;18
Murray Dueck
Oh, God, glory to you. And now I'm under pressure to see if I can do this right. I say it every day. Glory to you, oh God, glory to you. Spirit who fills all things. Treasury of blessing, giver of life, come and abide in us, cleansing us of every stain and saving our soul. Oh good one.

00;24;05;18 - 00;24;26;10
Murray Dueck
Something like that. I did Mississippi because I froze there. But now that I prayer is on. Like over time, you know the word Treasury a blessing that jumped out at me. I'm. I gonna use that in my day, a different day. Come and abide in us. Jumped out at me and I like now that's in there.

00;24;26;14 - 00;24;43;26
Murray Dueck
So now when I read it, the history of those little encounters of the past come back to me every time I read it. And it's become something very living to me rather than just something in my brain. Yeah. And so, so everybody to develop that to church realized that you can encounter the Lord through this kind of thing.

00;24;43;26 - 00;24;51;11
Murray Dueck
So I again I just recommend to this to to allow it, give it, let it breathe. Yeah. No. Like opening a bottle of wine. You got to let it breathe. Right.

00;24;51;11 - 00;25;14;11
Joshua Hoffert
So I, I, the, the desert Fathers in particular one of their the, the, the, the rhythm was if I remember again, you know, I'm pulling this from memory, but it was something like this. They would chant 12 psalms in the morning. Yeah. And I think 12 psalms in the evening. It was something like I think Cassian talks about this in the institutes.

00;25;14;13 - 00;25;45;05
Joshua Hoffert
I think it's Cassian who talked about that. And, and the idea essentially is it's it's very similar in its and we've talked about this before, the, the book on the Jesus Prayer, the author or the, the Russian Orthodox one, the pilgrim way or the Pilgrim, right, where the idea is that these things become so ingrained in you is and they start to come out of you and like, I'll find myself, I've been thinking about this lately.

00;25;45;05 - 00;25;56;10
Joshua Hoffert
How often? You know what's funny? The, the theme song, of different songs. It'll kind of play off over time, right? The the song. Holy and Anointed one.

00;25;56;13 - 00;25;57;07
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;25;57;10 - 00;26;09;02
Joshua Hoffert
This is a song that is just this very special to me, right? Or, there's another one I think was enter the worship circle. You are beautiful. My sweet, sweet song, you know.

00;26;09;02 - 00;26;13;18
Murray Dueck
Oh, I totally forgot about that. But the songs you said that those.

00;26;13;18 - 00;26;36;23
Joshua Hoffert
Songs will will periodically surface while I'm working or driving. I'll just start humming them, or I'll find myself singing them. Right. Because they're songs that have. I've encountered the presence of God through, and they've been very impactful to me, one of the other ones that constantly comes up and I'm saying this to to, this is a bit funny, is the theme song from the Never Ending Story.

00;26;36;26 - 00;26;40;26
Murray Dueck
I remember the movie, but I don't remember the themes.

00;26;40;28 - 00;26;43;25
Joshua Hoffert
The. Yeah, well, it'll just be the humming of it, right? A song.

00;26;43;25 - 00;26;44;29
Murray Dueck
Oh yeah.

00;26;45;01 - 00;27;07;06
Joshua Hoffert
But it's because the never ending story, there's a, there's a scene that just totally struck me a few years ago. And it's the scene where everybody comes to the Emerald Castle, and because the nothing is eating there, we're all the way right. And the nothing is it? Everybody's lost their ambition, their hopes and dreams, all that stuff.

00;27;07;06 - 00;27;26;23
Joshua Hoffert
Right? And it's the the, the real world is losing ambition and hopes and dreams. And they can't see themselves and they're just working. And they've lost sight of the beauty and glory of life and now is impacting the world of Fantasia. And so and so the guy who's who, everybody comes and he's the mouthpiece of the Emerald Princess.

00;27;26;26 - 00;27;52;27
Joshua Hoffert
He goes, I know why you've all gathered here today. It's because the nothing is eating our world, right? And I've always thought of that as the call to ministry. Right. I know why we're all gathered, right? Because the nothing is eating our world, and we want to do something about it. Right? And so. So that's the theme song goes off because that's the, the, the resurrection of that.

00;27;53;00 - 00;28;10;25
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, the call to I see so many problems that I want to bring Jesus to people to solve that right, to to introduce them to him. So anyway, so that's but that's these things become so ingrained in you that they start coming out of you.

00;28;10;25 - 00;28;12;28
Murray Dueck
Yeah. I see on this,

00;28;13;00 - 00;28;26;16
Joshua Hoffert
This 45 minute or hour, half an hour or 20 minute whatever, however much time you have, that you set aside to have a quote unquote prayer rule, they, they become part of who you are. So, like, my.

00;28;26;21 - 00;28;28;05
Murray Dueck
Practical way to say it.

00;28;28;09 - 00;28;57;02
Joshua Hoffert
Well, practically, I, I, I have a I actually have it right here. I have a I use a book of Common Prayer, very, very often, to not so much for the prayers or, for the Psalter. I like holding this old. It's an old falling apart. Wow. 1950s. I pilfered it from a friend's Anglican church, damaged the damaged section.

00;28;57;05 - 00;29;16;22
Joshua Hoffert
Taped it back together. So it's got history in 1962, and. But the Psalter in it. I really like the translation. And so it's very. Yeah, I, I would just frequently use it and I'll go start at Psalm one. Yeah. And I like I have a new King James Version Bible that I use as well when I'm going through it.

00;29;16;22 - 00;29;19;10
Joshua Hoffert
But I've gone through this. I've gone through this thing dozens of times.

00;29;19;17 - 00;29;20;16
Murray Dueck
Oh, isn't that,

00;29;20;18 - 00;29;44;29
Joshua Hoffert
So I'll just start Psalm. So basically, if you separate out Psalms one through 150 and you take some of the longer Psalms like 119 and separate them out by stanzas, you, you basically work through the Psalms twice a year. And, if you take a Psalm a day and pray and meditate, you know what is what it rests your your heart on that particular day.

00;29;45;02 - 00;30;08;19
Joshua Hoffert
Right? So using the Psalms as a, a way of praying, right, using the scriptures as a way of praying is and eventually they become so a part of you. And then you're reading through them and you recognize certain verses and they touch you even more, and you have certain encounters with God. He speaks to you, or you have a realization about your own life or about, you know, something about the father.

00;30;08;21 - 00;30;23;23
Joshua Hoffert
But one of the things that I started doing about a year or two ago after actually after our episode where we interviewed, Matt Esquivel when he was talking about that was Voice of Jesus and the voice of the bride in the song.

00;30;23;25 - 00;30;26;19
Murray Dueck
That was, we need to have him come back and. Yeah, back on that.

00;30;26;19 - 00;30;46;22
Joshua Hoffert
I got to reach back out to him. We were talking about it, and then, went out of touch. And, and so when you start to read the Psalms in that way, like the voice of the bride giving language to the urgency of humanity's problem or the voice of Jesus, and you go, oh my goodness, this is really.

00;30;46;23 - 00;30;47;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Right.

00;30;47;17 - 00;30;48;02
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;30;48;06 - 00;30;58;25
Joshua Hoffert
Well, the Psalms take on a whole life within you when you read through them like that. And they really are this beautiful, this beautiful expression of prayer. Right.

00;30;58;27 - 00;31;20;16
Murray Dueck
Well, I got to say one thing about you. Yeah, because it keeps going through my brain. Because, again, everybody like Josh and I are. You got to understand us as this charismatic acts we take when music sings it us, we pay attention like we don't just take that is us remembering something, right? Yeah. And I just want to give you an a little like, you know, verses pop into your heads throughout the day or, you know, to pray for somebody.

00;31;20;20 - 00;31;31;01
Joshua Hoffert
Actually, Father Luke says that about lectio divina, that you spend the time in the scriptures so that the scriptures come up throughout the day. Yeah. Yeah.

00;31;31;01 - 00;31;46;24
Murray Dueck
Beautiful. So I was I got to just tell a stupid little story. So I, we're, I live now in Kamloops. I used to just visit this area, and I used to like to go gold panning and and, the reason I like gold panning. Well, what is that? If you sit by a creek without anything stirring for three days, people think you're crazy.

00;31;46;27 - 00;32;01;03
Murray Dueck
But if you have a gold panic. Oh, he's gold petty. You can get away with it. You can just sit there. And since I don't like fly fishing work. So, I had this old Honda Civic, and I decided for some reason, to follow this forest road to the top of this mountain, in this area, very dry desert place.

00;32;01;05 - 00;32;20;08
Murray Dueck
And I'm up there poking around. You know, I'm mainly just enjoying myself out in the country itself. And, you know, I'm just nothing there, of course. But I start singing this song. Let it rain, let it rain. I'm thinking, you know, why am I singing this song? I better get out of here. So I wake up on this mountain.

00;32;20;10 - 00;32;38;20
Murray Dueck
And I got to drive down this country road. And by the time I get to the bottom. The clouds are so thick and black, the streetlights have come on. And this harsh downpour comes down into the city and like, wipes out the town all. And I was up for this mountain. You know, if it wasn't for you singing that stupid song, I may not ever have gotten out of there.

00;32;38;20 - 00;32;39;17
Murray Dueck
So,

00;32;39;19 - 00;32;41;22
Joshua Hoffert
What do you say we pay attention to those things?

00;32;41;22 - 00;32;43;03
Murray Dueck
I better pay attention to this.

00;32;43;06 - 00;32;48;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. So there you go. That's proof is in the pudding.

00;32;48;25 - 00;32;55;19
Murray Dueck
Yeah. It's not just you singing a song or reading a scripture. Yeah, somebody is in there like, hello, McFly.

00;32;55;19 - 00;33;13;07
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. The the third part of the, the injunction to pray, right. Use a prayer book or the Psalms and then the last part is, and this is something that we probably would spearhead off into like a thousand episodes or the Jesus Prayer.

00;33;13;09 - 00;33;22;14
Murray Dueck
Which is my thing. Everybody, just so you know, that's like, I do that I try to do that every day. All day. Yeah. And I can't, but I anyway that's a, that's we'll get to there.

00;33;22;20 - 00;33;44;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And to, to put it simply you know as best we can. That's my prayer room. The, the Jesus prayer is is you find it throughout Scripture. You find it practice in the early church. The typical form of it is Lord Jesus Christ. The the long form of it and the short form of it. Long form is large.

00;33;44;21 - 00;33;52;06
Joshua Hoffert
Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Shortened form of it is Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me.

00;33;52;08 - 00;33;53;00
Murray Dueck
Oh, you.

00;33;53;02 - 00;34;03;21
Joshua Hoffert
Or Jesus have mercy, Jesus mercy right? The idea is an acknowledgment of the Lordship of Jesus and an acknowledgment of our need of his grace and mercy.

00;34;03;25 - 00;34;15;21
Murray Dueck
That's kind of mercy there. You have to understand. It's like I can't pray it when I'm doing bad because I go, God, please don't kill me. Have mercy. But that's not what that word means. It's mercy is just the Old Testament word for kindness.

00;34;15;21 - 00;34;25;24
Joshua Hoffert
It's tender, the tender affection or loving kindness of God. Yeah. So I'll oftentimes, Adapt it to the Lord. Be tender towards me.

00;34;26;01 - 00;34;26;12
Murray Dueck
Yes.

00;34;26;16 - 00;34;54;15
Joshua Hoffert
That's that's it's you're essentially asking to because that softens your heart towards him and hardens your heart against sin. And because when I heart soften towards him, my heart, my, my, you know, I'm, I'm I'm gravitating towards him. And I like I mentioned, I think before we started recording Psalm, Psalm 78 was my reading for the day, and I was struck by how many times it repeat repeats the phrase that they forgot God.

00;34;54;17 - 00;35;04;27
Joshua Hoffert
And it's like, you know, be tender towards me is to help put me in the frame of always remembering him and being conscious of his presence in my life.

00;35;04;29 - 00;35;19;12
Murray Dueck
They would say that I'll just throw this out. They would say, that's a very, Trinitarian prayer, so. Oh, sure. Son of God. Of course there is the father and the son, but nobody can say Jesus is the Son of God except by the Holy Spirit.

00;35;19;18 - 00;35;20;01
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;35;20;01 - 00;35;20;19
Murray Dueck
So.

00;35;20;21 - 00;35;46;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So there's the the Jesus prayer is, you know, in, in the orthodox, in the orthodox vein of things, it takes on a lot of mystical meaning. Yeah. Which is great. And but then it's still it's practiced even in the Catholics use it. The, it's kind of, you know, every tradition has its way of interpreting that and practicing it.

00;35;46;14 - 00;35;59;29
Joshua Hoffert
And but the fact of the matter is, you see that phrase all the time in the Psalms, right? Maybe not Jesus, Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, but God have mercy on me. Yeah, right. Yeah, that's in the Psalms all the time.

00;36;00;03 - 00;36;07;18
Murray Dueck
And and they would say in the New Testament, any time Jesus was ever asked for mercy, he always gave it. It's a prayer. He always answered.

00;36;07;18 - 00;36;08;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's.

00;36;08;06 - 00;36;13;26
Murray Dueck
True. Right? If you look through, the lepers crying out, Jesus, have mercy or, you know.

00;36;13;28 - 00;36;38;28
Joshua Hoffert
Look at in the Pharisee have mercy, he found justified just or he found justification before God because he acknowledged, you know, that Jesus tells the parable of the publican and the Pharisee, God have mercy on me. So the the prayer is, is consistently used throughout Scripture, consistently used throughout church history as a means of the soul, the heart.

00;36;39;00 - 00;36;55;04
Joshua Hoffert
Well, you know, whatever term you want to use, presenting itself before the father and and then different formats for that. So in the in the Orthodox rule, you would use a prayer rope. Prayer beads.

00;36;55;06 - 00;36;55;14
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;36;55;14 - 00;37;06;00
Joshua Hoffert
And that's really and you would use it. But, but in a way you would use it so that you wouldn't need to use it anymore. That's. Yeah. The heart is naturally like training wheels.

00;37;06;00 - 00;37;21;06
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Training wheels on your bicycle. So think of everybody if like me, if I'm sitting in a meeting or I'm listening to a tape, I like to. I like to scribble, I like to have a pen and I like to draw. That helps me. You know, some people would be distracting for me doing getting my hands to do something actually helps.

00;37;21;06 - 00;37;28;08
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And, basically that's the prayer rope right there. Yeah. So we're not talking right here. Anglican different thing.

00;37;28;13 - 00;37;45;21
Joshua Hoffert
Well, even the rosary you you could adapt like the Catholics do adapt it to use it that way as well. So it'll be like, you know, five beads are married, ten beads are it's not all the rosary is not all about Mary, depending on how on the particular practice. Right. So they would.

00;37;45;21 - 00;37;46;10
Murray Dueck
Use the.

00;37;46;10 - 00;37;54;17
Joshua Hoffert
Jesus prayer on that. They would use the Jesus Prayer in the context of the Rosary as well. And because it's the same concept. Really. Yeah.

00;37;54;23 - 00;38;03;23
Murray Dueck
Well, you know, it depends, you know, like sometimes on the rosary, I mean, the concept of like the Hail Marys and five Jesus. I'm like, what the heck? There's a doubt about the.

00;38;03;23 - 00;38;06;12
Joshua Hoffert
Concept of rhythmic prayer is the same. Yeah. What?

00;38;06;12 - 00;38;07;20
Murray Dueck
I mean, the concept of rhythmic prayer.

00;38;07;28 - 00;38;30;29
Joshua Hoffert
You know, and you'd but you would also find, repeated phrases like, if you go to Anglican church, you'll repeat the phrase often God have mercy on us. God have mercy or have mercy. Have mercy right. These also enter into the lexicon of the, the, the prayer, the liturgical services. Right. So it it permeates in, in that sense and it gives us language to pray.

00;38;30;29 - 00;38;34;02
Joshua Hoffert
So every tradition approaches that.

00;38;34;04 - 00;38;34;21
Murray Dueck
A little different.

00;38;34;22 - 00;38;35;04
Joshua Hoffert
A little.

00;38;35;04 - 00;38;56;02
Murray Dueck
Differently. They've got, a format. Yeah. You know, it's funny, like, you know, maybe the transgene is probably. Sorry. I'm just thinking about this is, Holy God, Holy mighty, Holy Immortal and have mercy on me. Holy God almighty, Holy word, have mercy on me. Write. Glory to the father, to the son, and to the Holy Spirit for ever and ever.

00;38;56;02 - 00;39;10;13
Murray Dueck
Amen. And then it goes, have mercy, a mercy of mercy, of mercy, of mercy, of mercy. Are you got a six time. Yeah. And the reason they do that is if you do it twice, you're just trying to get through it. If you do it six times, by the time you get number six, you actually mean it. You got there.

00;39;10;13 - 00;39;17;02
Joshua Hoffert
Just copying that guy. What was the. He was the radio guy. I'm sure you remember him. Praise the Lord.

00;39;17;02 - 00;39;21;04
Murray Dueck
Praise the dawn, not dawn. Got. No. Yeah. I'm God.

00;39;21;09 - 00;39;22;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;39;22;02 - 00;39;22;06
Murray Dueck
Right.

00;39;22;07 - 00;39;27;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. They're just copying that. Yeah. They'll will give ten praise the Lord's Lord. That's just.

00;39;27;20 - 00;39;32;11
Murray Dueck
Copying. I can't believe I remember that guy's name. That's Larry. I'm pretty sure that's right.

00;39;32;14 - 00;39;45;09
Joshua Hoffert
I, I when I used to watch him monster, I used to put on a Am radio and listen to the Christian station just to see what was going on. There's some. You hear some funny stuff? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Are you. Yeah.

00;39;45;12 - 00;39;48;07
Murray Dueck
And you do it so slow. And it would be ten times.

00;39;48;07 - 00;39;57;19
Joshua Hoffert
Ten times. Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord. Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. I used to listen to Hank and Graf all the time. The Bible answer man. And then he. He's me became Orthodox. Yeah.

00;39;57;19 - 00;40;02;00
Murray Dueck
You converted to Orthodoxy. You criticize the vineyard for 20 years.

00;40;02;05 - 00;40;08;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So, let's do. Because I know Murray's. Murray's got to, take off in just a couple minutes. So.

00;40;08;09 - 00;40;10;03
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I should probably go another ten.

00;40;10;05 - 00;40;12;10
Joshua Hoffert
Okay, let's just hit the last two.

00;40;12;13 - 00;40;18;02
Murray Dueck
Yeah. These are very, very important. Yeah. And so if you don't mind repeating them, but I, I'd like to say a couple things about these.

00;40;18;02 - 00;40;24;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So so prayer user prayer book Psalms Jesus prayer. We covered that. There's more to say about that we might revisit.

00;40;24;19 - 00;40;25;16
Murray Dueck
I mean.

00;40;25;18 - 00;40;54;00
Joshua Hoffert
Read the scriptures and keep in check. See the AC moving back to the eighth rule, right where your heart is open before God, your heart is open before others, and it's receiving and it's being purified and it's presenting itself to him. So, yeah. So those are the last two points about making a prayer rule. Is read the scriptures and keep in check.

00;40;54;02 - 00;41;20;19
Joshua Hoffert
And again, the point I, you know, I know I remember talking with Father Luke about this, the point of reading the scriptures and having a selected text that you would revisit, is that it would then it's essentially setting the tone for the day. And the point is that you would continue to revisit those scriptures and have a, a deeper appreciation, more insight.

00;41;20;21 - 00;41;27;22
Joshua Hoffert
And you would understand more about. So the one of the things that, Father Luke says in his book on lectio divina.

00;41;27;27 - 00;41;28;10
Murray Dueck


00;41;29;01 - 00;41;56;05
Joshua Hoffert
Is the he said many people essentially says this, I'm just gonna paraphrase many people will read the scriptures, in order to help them deal with the, the struggle of humanity. Right. And so they read the scriptures for insight into what it means to be human and how to live. And and so they read it almost as a counseling or psychological, psychological.

00;41;56;09 - 00;41;59;00
Murray Dueck
I mean, I think we all do that. I think to some.

00;41;59;00 - 00;42;19;15
Joshua Hoffert
Extent he says, that's fine, but that's not the purpose of the scriptures. The purpose of the scriptures is to show us what the father is like. And and so, so the the real reading of Scripture is not to encounter humanity. The real reading of Scripture is to encounter what the fathers like. That's my own language. Paraphrasing.

00;42;19;15 - 00;42;22;04
Murray Dueck
Really, really helpful just for me to hear that today.

00;42;22;08 - 00;42;39;21
Joshua Hoffert
That he he talked he has a whole chapter on that in his book on lectio divina and how we we approach the scriptures and, and it's great that we're reading them. But in a way, it's misguided attempts of application because we're trying to read them with us in mind rather than God in mind.

00;42;39;23 - 00;42;40;28
Murray Dueck
Wow. Really good.

00;42;40;28 - 00;43;05;21
Joshua Hoffert
What is this scripture showing me about the nature of God and what he's like? Not what is this scripture showing me about? So if I put myself in the center of the reading, I'll learn more about myself for sure. But I'll learn less about the father. I might stumble into insight about the father, but when I'm reading it for myself, rather than reading it for what he's like, it changes the context for, oh, when I bring it, what I bring to or what's so funny?

00;43;05;21 - 00;43;08;25
Murray Dueck
It's such a great, just such a simple thought. But it's so life changing.

00;43;08;27 - 00;43;32;27
Joshua Hoffert
So it's profoundly different, right? You read the Psalms thinking, what is this? How does this make Jesus sound? Versus how do I find language to pray? Yeah, and I naturally find language to pray because I see Jesus in his humanity crying out, right. And and the reason why you would read the Psalms that way, too, is because the, the, the New Testament characterizes the things that Jesus says, right?

00;43;32;27 - 00;44;03;22
Joshua Hoffert
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Jesus says in the first person, yeah, right. And then the Psalms presents that in the first person in Psalm 22. So it's not like it's presenting it as if, you know. And then I heard someone say this. No, it's that's his voice or it's Psalm 22 is his voice. But that's that's many times the the psalm is presented as the very voice of Jesus in, in the New Testament when Jesus speaks and in the Psalm itself, it's spoken as, as in the first person.

00;44;03;25 - 00;44;20;03
Joshua Hoffert
So hence why it would be the voice of Jesus. Right? So I'm I'm actually reading it with him in mind, not with me in mind now and, and then that changes what I, what I bring to it and what I take out of it. And it will still impact me, but it impacts me because I see what he's like, not what I'm like.

00;44;20;05 - 00;44;34;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, brilliant. And so Father Luke expands on that in the book on that to to be not. I think it's an incredibly helpful way of, of changing the context for how I read scripture. So scripture.

00;44;34;12 - 00;44;34;27
Murray Dueck
That's.

00;44;35;00 - 00;45;06;05
Joshua Hoffert
Teaches me what the father's like, not teaches me what I'm like. And that's, you know, that that gets into, a because in contemporary Christianity, the, the, the gospel is characterized as man being saved from eternal punishment. Right. So the the reason God came was to save man. So man becomes the center of the gospel. The story of man becomes a center of the gospel in, in contemporary Christian soteriology.

00;45;06;08 - 00;45;14;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Man's the saving point, right? Rather than God wanting his family back. Right. As we could characterize. Wow.

00;45;14;06 - 00;45;24;19
Murray Dueck
So it's back to Basil saying, you know, maturity. Stage one. We see God as a master and we're a slave, right? Fear of God. God, don't send me to hell. Okay?

00;45;24;21 - 00;45;29;12
Joshua Hoffert
Many of us read Scripture because every Christian theology creates theology. And stage one.

00;45;29;14 - 00;45;34;19
Murray Dueck
Yeah, right. Stage two super quick. He's a master. I'm a I'm a servant. I work for.

00;45;34;19 - 00;45;35;28
Joshua Hoffert
Him. I'm getting something out of it.

00;45;35;29 - 00;45;40;26
Murray Dueck
I'm getting something out of it. Stage three is what we're talking about, which is beautiful.

00;45;40;28 - 00;45;42;09
Joshua Hoffert
He's a beautiful father.

00;45;42;11 - 00;45;43;15
Murray Dueck
He's a beautiful father.

00;45;43;21 - 00;46;03;25
Joshua Hoffert
Right? So he's the center of it, right? So the gospel is the story of Jesus and God winning. Is God wanting a family back. And so it tells us what who God is, what God is like, not what mankind is like. We we learn what man's like, right? But only because man was created by God. So the Bible is a story of God, not the story of man.

00;46;03;28 - 00;46;05;12
Joshua Hoffert
And,

00;46;05;14 - 00;46;13;24
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I really like that. That's really helpful. Sorry, everybody. I'm making it about myself or don't know, crap. I'm doing exactly what we're not talking about, but that's that.

00;46;13;24 - 00;46;20;09
Joshua Hoffert
If we bring that into the context of our our reading and prayer in in terms of a prayer rule.

00;46;20;11 - 00;46;20;27
Murray Dueck
Right, all of.

00;46;20;27 - 00;46;38;14
Joshua Hoffert
A sudden we find ourselves drawn back to thinking about God, and I'm thinking about myself. If I think about myself, I'm drawn away from that place, right? If I think about him, I'm drawn towards that place. Yeah. So when I'm drawn towards him, I naturally learn things about myself because we see the great Augustinian prayer playing itself out.

00;46;38;14 - 00;46;59;03
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Teach me to know myself that I might know you or teach me to know you. That I might know myself. Right. There's the intertwining relationship there, I, I can't really see, I can't see God and not learn something about myself because I'm made in his image and like. That's right. So if I see him I see something of myself.

00;46;59;06 - 00;47;23;16
Joshua Hoffert
And so anyway, to me, the way that Father Luke characterizes scripture reading, it puts us in the place where we have the potential at least. Right? Because we've we've cleared the airwaves and we've created space. Now I'm actually bringing to the table the vision of God rather than the vision of humanity. And so and this is just a, just a just a contextual adjustment.

00;47;23;22 - 00;47;24;05
Joshua Hoffert
Wow.

00;47;24;07 - 00;47;43;03
Murray Dueck
I mean, it's a big I remember somebody said, I'm trying to figure out who it was because I'm thinking about this for this weekend. You said if you want to make slow incremental change, study, memorize, right. If you want to make massive fast change, change your paradigm. Yeah. Which is what we just talked about.

00;47;43;07 - 00;47;44;21
Joshua Hoffert
Stephen Covey said that.

00;47;44;23 - 00;47;46;29
Murray Dueck
Oh is it Stephen Covey? Thank you. Because it's.

00;47;47;06 - 00;47;50;08
Joshua Hoffert
So true. Oh come in. Let's not say coven. We don't want to come in.

00;47;50;08 - 00;48;02;00
Murray Dueck
Yeah Stephen Covey that's right. Yeah. So I figured it was him but I haven't. But it's so true. Like if you just apply that. Yeah. Wow. I mean, it's it's really, that's life changing. It's brilliant.

00;48;02;02 - 00;48;02;23
Joshua Hoffert
It's a, it's.

00;48;02;23 - 00;48;12;18
Murray Dueck
And it's something it's easy to lose. Like I'm thinking, oh I've got some weeds growing in my garden here on this. I got to pull this out. Right. Get back to that. So yeah, it's so easy to make life about yourself right and right.

00;48;12;25 - 00;48;35;15
Joshua Hoffert
That's what the Guideposts are, right? Yeah. So if we throw, we roll the bowling ball down the aisle and it bumps against the bumper lane and still keeps going. Right. That's the whole point is the ball will still keep going towards its target. If we have the Guideposts in place. Yes. And even though we might get off this way or that way, we start reading Scripture and we're going, I, I've forgotten.

00;48;35;15 - 00;48;53;27
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, that's right, I was reading it through the lens of what's Jesus like, right? The Guideposts keep us back bounce, and we're still going. And at least we might get a couple pins knocked down. Right. Not going to strike that one, right. But we'll get a couple pins right. So and we'll always have the opportunity to roll the ball again.

00;48;54;00 - 00;48;56;03
Murray Dueck
Brilliant. It's so good. Yeah.

00;48;56;05 - 00;48;59;23
Joshua Hoffert
Well Mary I think we probably need to wrap this one up. You've got.

00;48;59;23 - 00;49;08;17
Murray Dueck
Well, you know I want to say a last thought I sure last thought because the last two things you said on there is take a day away. How often. Yeah.

00;49;08;18 - 00;49;22;24
Joshua Hoffert
Take so twice a day morning and evening prayer rule once a week. Take an extra 2 or 3 hours, once a month. Spend a full day and, you know, you could go up onto the back. Lot of memories. Yeah, yeah. Marshall. Right.

00;49;22;24 - 00;49;24;04
Murray Dueck
And once a year, take once.

00;49;24;04 - 00;49;26;16
Joshua Hoffert
A year, take a couple day retreat. Yeah.

00;49;26;19 - 00;49;31;03
Murray Dueck
And I just wanted to say something in regards to that. Why that's important. And great point.

00;49;31;03 - 00;49;32;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;49;32;12 - 00;49;36;19
Murray Dueck
I had a friend from where Josh grew up, in that, you know.

00;49;36;21 - 00;49;37;22
Joshua Hoffert
California.

00;49;37;24 - 00;49;53;27
Murray Dueck
San Luis Obispo, and those guys in San Luis, Central California, Pismo Beach were Bugs Bunny was always trying to get to and never makes it. It's like they're on a four day weekend all the time. Like they're just so mellow. And I remember he came up to a conference. We did. And you had to rent a car or, you know.

00;49;54;00 - 00;49;56;05
Joshua Hoffert
Drives there and crazy, you know, like, oh.

00;49;56;05 - 00;49;56;18
Murray Dueck
Really?

00;49;56;19 - 00;49;59;13
Joshua Hoffert
I work its way out. It's fine. Yeah.

00;49;59;15 - 00;50;00;25
Murray Dueck
It's like they're like that.

00;50;00;26 - 00;50;04;11
Joshua Hoffert
We don't have a house booked for that vacation two days before. We'll figure that.

00;50;04;11 - 00;50;18;26
Murray Dueck
Out. Yeah. There's. So everybody's so freaking mellow. And I remember he came up and rented a car, and he came to our conference up in the Vancouver area. Because I don't know what it is since I've been here, I don't get enough done. And I got to work harder, and I'm driving on the highway faster and faster. What's going on?

00;50;18;26 - 00;50;42;15
Murray Dueck
I'm like, welcome to the Fraser Valley, right? Yeah. And and see, the thing is, everybody, we have this culture and we think it's normal, right? I've always been busy and driving and doing. Think about Christmas morning. What's that like? It's peaceful. It's laid back. The town feels restful. Yeah. What's the difference? Because everybody is a driving and driving and it's different.

00;50;42;17 - 00;51;03;17
Murray Dueck
But we think that driving is normal and that's just normally us. Yeah. That's right. Don't take time away. As Jesus said, come to a quiet place and get some rest. Yeah, that breaks that cycle. And just getting away with the Lord and making it a habit takes you out of things that you think is just your normal life.

00;51;03;17 - 00;51;05;07
Murray Dueck
That's right. But it is it.

00;51;05;08 - 00;51;07;13
Joshua Hoffert
It helps to reset you 100%.

00;51;07;14 - 00;51;28;28
Murray Dueck
Helps to reset you. Yeah. And you need that because it affects your prayer life and your walk with God. And having that as a part of your prayer role. Super important. Yeah. Because you start to assume some of the busyness and driven this and is is just you and it not it isn't necessary. And so that's right. And I just wanted to throw that out there before I go because just excellent.

00;51;29;01 - 00;51;32;24
Murray Dueck
Think about that. And with that I do need to go with that.

00;51;32;24 - 00;51;53;07
Joshua Hoffert
Everybody will call this episode to a close. We might we might revisit the prayer rule and part two also because there's more that we could say we'll see. Oh boy. And I'll figure that out. But, everybody, it's always a great fun to have you guys along with the journey. We love to hear from you. Please leave a review on your podcasting platform and check out the Patreon.

00;51;53;09 - 00;52;10;13
Joshua Hoffert
The link will be in the episode description. All those things are always helpful as Maria and I navigate, family life and ministry life. And you know, if you want to support us on Patreon, that's always helpful. So, but a review for sure would be helpful because that helps other people find out about the podcast. Yeah, yeah.

00;52;10;13 - 00;52;22;05
Joshua Hoffert
And, the algorithms work. We have great things planned. You know, we've got some big interviews coming up that we'd love to share with you guys. And I guess until next time, as always, God bless.

00;52;22;06 - 00;52;23;01
Murray Dueck
Thank you everybody.

00;52;23;01 - 00;52;23;25
Joshua Hoffert
Thank you. Thank you.