A Strange and Gracious Light: Incarnating Jesus in the Practice of the Church, an interview with Andrew Arndt

"An unquantifiable amount of human pain is about to walk through those doors, so be gentle. Life is often hard on these folks, and it is a miracle that many of them are here.”

With this simple phrase, Andrew encourages his leadership team to be a sacramental offering towards each person who walks in on Sunday morning. When considering theological positions, the practice of "Church" is often tertiary. What would it look like if we considered each Sunday an incarnation, and each sacrament made us aware of the invisible?

Join Voices from the Desert as they dive in with Andrew Arndt and his latest book, "A Strange and Gracious Light".

For more about Voices from the Desert, visit our Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/VoicesfromtheDesert

For more about Andrew's book, visit: https://heraldpress.com/9781513816203/a-strange-and-gracious-light/

Transcript

00;00;17;24 - 00;00;44;00
Andrew Arndt
And he says that the church is a colony of people living in the country, and that if you're going to actually do that, well, you have to. There's a lot of work that you need to do when the colony gathers at the colony. When does that happen? Happens on Sunday morning. The colony of people living in a country that all of you probably are going to consider.

00;00;44;02 - 00;01;15;17
Joshua Hoffert
Welcome, everybody, to another episode of voices from the Desert's Deserts. This would be the point in time where my co-host and compadre and one of my dearest friends would probably howl like a coyote and then make some comment about wanting to be able to sound like an e walker. Sand person from Star Wars and, you know, we'd nerd out on sci fi shows and everything for a little bit, and then eventually we'd get back to introducing you to the guest.

00;01;15;21 - 00;01;20;04
Andrew Arndt
Yes, yes, yes, I remember something along those lines. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

00;01;20;07 - 00;01;26;05
Joshua Hoffert
No one really ever wants to join us in the coyote. Al. And my wife rolls her eyes every time she hears me editing an episode.

00;01;26;07 - 00;01;30;12
Andrew Arndt
They're not ready for it. Yeah, that's right. They might come in ready?

00;01;30;14 - 00;01;35;06
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. You know, and like, in, like, 50 years, we'll be, like, on the cutting edge, right?

00;01;35;08 - 00;01;37;01
Andrew Arndt
Yeah. You figure it out eventually. Yeah.

00;01;37;01 - 00;01;40;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right, that's right. No, I think everybody else will figure it out and they'll come along.

00;01;40;14 - 00;01;46;10
Andrew Arndt
Yeah. Oh okay. That's it, that's it. They'll know they're like I'm on that. I'm on that. So I better be like yeah.

00;01;46;12 - 00;01;51;22
Joshua Hoffert
That's right, that's right. So yeah she's always she's always rolling her eyes. And most of the things I do.

00;01;51;27 - 00;01;55;03
Andrew Arndt
Spoke very, Yeah, yeah.

00;01;55;06 - 00;02;04;16
Joshua Hoffert
So we've got a returning guest, who's becoming a good friend. He was on the podcast, actually, we were the last episode of 2024.

00;02;04;18 - 00;02;05;13
Andrew Arndt


00;02;05;15 - 00;02;35;02
Joshua Hoffert
And you were our our Christmas gift to all of our listeners. And I had I, I think if I remember right, I think I had come across your website by googling, looking for other charismatic evangelical people that were talking about the Desert Fathers. Yeah. And I'm pretty sure that's how I found out. Oh, this Andrew guy I sent to sent a message and was like, oh my goodness is he's like, what he has to say.

00;02;35;05 - 00;02;35;21
Andrew Arndt
Yeah.

00;02;35;23 - 00;02;40;02
Joshua Hoffert
So then we connected and had you on and you had I had you had

00;02;40;05 - 00;02;40;27
Andrew Arndt


00;02;41;00 - 00;02;48;03
Joshua Hoffert
You had put on a book that I was going through. Streams is a streams in the wasteland or is that what it was?

00;02;48;06 - 00;02;48;10
Andrew Arndt
Yeah.

00;02;48;10 - 00;02;51;25
Joshua Hoffert
Right there. Certain streams. Right? Right. Yeah. That's right.

00;02;51;27 - 00;02;52;06
Andrew Arndt
Yeah.

00;02;52;09 - 00;02;59;18
Joshua Hoffert
There you go. Perfect. Yeah, perfect. And, and so we had you on and we talked about your journey of discovering the Desert Fathers.

00;02;59;20 - 00;03;00;24
Andrew Arndt
And.

00;03;00;26 - 00;03;06;17
Joshua Hoffert
And then I saw on Facebook that you had just put out a new book in the last six months or so.

00;03;06;24 - 00;03;07;19
Andrew Arndt


00;03;07;21 - 00;03;31;06
Joshua Hoffert
A strange and gracious light. Yeah. And thought, hey, I'd like to have this guy back on. We had a great time with him. So I'm very pleased to welcome back on, a friend. Andrew Arndt is a pastor in Colorado. That's right. And to one of the, one of the satellite campus pastors, right. Of is it new Life East?

00;03;31;06 - 00;03;32;14
Joshua Hoffert
Is that what it was called?

00;03;32;16 - 00;03;42;21
Andrew Arndt
New Light East? Yeah. That's right, one of the one of the congregations of New Life Church. So we planted it five and a half years ago. And right. Having a well, we're having a good time with it.

00;03;42;23 - 00;03;52;29
Joshua Hoffert
Right, right. And so you, you when did you start work on the book? Like, like, you know, before you were born in the womb, right. It's.

00;03;53;03 - 00;04;19;05
Andrew Arndt
Yeah. When first you when Jesus first began to reveal himself to me all those years ago, I did a doctoral program through Western Theological Seminary up in Holland, Michigan, with, Winn Collier, who wrote the Eugene Peterson biography a few years back and now leads the Eugene Peterson Center for a Christian Imagination. Okay. Now at Western. And they have a few different doctoral programs that have come out of that.

00;04;19;05 - 00;04;40;19
Andrew Arndt
And during Covid, I saw that they were announcing a new cohort called The sacred Art of writing. So it was a doctoral program for people that felt that writing was a significant part of their ministry vocation. Right. And I was like, that's I've always said that about myself. I think the core of it for me is communication, and that's preaching and writing.

00;04;40;19 - 00;04;59;28
Andrew Arndt
And so any opportunity to hone my skills. So what was cool about it was the program was like real wide lanes. So it was like, what do you want to write about? It could be a book of sermons. It could be a memoir. It could be, it could be a novella or a story series, short stories, poetry, anything.

00;05;00;02 - 00;05;18;25
Andrew Arndt
And so I kind of started it thinking I don't around was it for a while. So I started it technically in 21 and kind of thought that I would be writing a memoir on the art of preaching. I'd been at it at that point for coming up on 20 years, and I was like, I love preaching. I might have something to say about it.

00;05;18;27 - 00;05;40;15
Andrew Arndt
Be kind of fun to reflect on my journey as a preacher, and then think about how you could FEMA ties that, I don't know. I had some thoughts about that. So I started writing in that direction. And then as I got into it, I was like, absolutely. I'm less interested in telling my own story and less interested in how preachers preach like the craft.

00;05;40;15 - 00;05;58;25
Andrew Arndt
And I'll probably write that book at some point. But I found myself really drawn to like, what is it that we're talking about? So what's the proper subject matter of our preaching? And of course, it's the word made flesh. It's Jesus the Lord, the whole economy of salvation. And I wasn't just interested in that in a vacuum, but I'm a pastor.

00;05;58;25 - 00;06;22;10
Andrew Arndt
And so gospel is never a thing that hangs over our it's, you know, floats over our heads. Gospel is the thing that's happening in the congregation. The congregation is, as Leslie Newbiggin said, the great ecologist, it's the hermeneutic of the gospel. It's like where you see it right happening, where the triune God is doing his thing. So I started reflecting on what it looks like to gospel together as a congregation.

00;06;22;10 - 00;06;53;17
Andrew Arndt
And then how do we even talk about the gospel in a meaningful way? And I just think, having come from my tribe, the evangelical charismatic world, most of us, when we think of gospel, it's just death and resurrection of Jesus. And the benefit that that secures for us and then the rest of the Christian life is kind of lived on other terms, sure, but that that's not the way that the scriptures talk about the gospel and Adam and, you know, in the best portions of our theology, our traditions, we haven't talked about the gospel in that way.

00;06;53;19 - 00;07;14;20
Andrew Arndt
Now, I really went off of a quote by the late Lutheran theologian Robert Jensen, who said that the gospel is the story of Jesus told as a promise. And so gospel is not less than death and resurrection, but so much more than that. It's the whole thing Jesus saves us by, not just by his death and resurrection, but by his life and his ongoing life at the right hand of the father.

00;07;14;22 - 00;07;39;11
Andrew Arndt
So how do we talk about that? So, right. I that that wound up leading into a shift where I decided to yeah, I took the church calendar from advent all the way to Pentecost, which that is the story of Jesus. That's the way that Christians traditionally have gospel themselves into the story. Right, is by rehearsing those movements. And I thought that this is just a good way to talk about how Jesus meets us and all of these different movements.

00;07;39;11 - 00;08;00;06
Andrew Arndt
How do we understand gospel? So, I did that. I originally wrote the book for pastors, trying to give them an imagination for how the story of Jesus actually shapes congregational life. And then when I finished the project and graduated, I wound up getting a contract offer from a publisher that liked it and said, on the one change we recommend is don't write it for preachers.

00;08;00;06 - 00;08;17;03
Andrew Arndt
Can you turn this to like the regular person? And I was like, God, that's what I do every week as I talk to regular people about this stuff. So I'm I'm happy to do that. So that that's how the book came about. It was fun to do. I'm I'm super fond of it because it feels like, I just turned 44 years old.

00;08;17;03 - 00;08;35;06
Andrew Arndt
I've been following Jesus my whole life, and I've been in ministry 20 years, so it feels like the best things I can say about Jesus right now. And, and, and the discipleship tool, you know, to put in the hands of people and go, this is what this is what I think about this. This is the gospel according to Andrew, at a minimum.

00;08;35;06 - 00;08;41;01
Andrew Arndt
At a maximum, it might actually be something approximating gospel. So yeah. Right. Right.

00;08;41;01 - 00;09;00;17
Joshua Hoffert
You said I think you'd I think this was a quote from you. I don't think you were quoting anybody, but, essentially you said you were talking about, one of the story because the books were filled with, and, and contextualized with stories of people. Yeah. In your pastoral journey as you walked with them and as there's some beautiful.

00;09;00;20 - 00;09;04;26
Joshua Hoffert
I finished the first chapter and was in tears. You know, the story of the woman.

00;09;04;27 - 00;09;06;10
Andrew Arndt
Jesus in the,

00;09;06;13 - 00;09;07;27
Joshua Hoffert
In the hospital and.

00;09;08;00 - 00;09;09;16
Andrew Arndt
Yeah.

00;09;09;18 - 00;09;22;17
Joshua Hoffert
And so I one of the things you said, though, was that the there theology was right there know their theology. How did you say you're through? The theology wasn't necessarily wrong. It just wasn't right enough.

00;09;22;19 - 00;09;23;20
Andrew Arndt
Yeah.

00;09;23;23 - 00;09;40;26
Joshua Hoffert
And which is it sounds like what you're saying is there's there's a there's an essence that's captured and I think, you know, stumbling for myself, stumbling into the, the teachings of the early church and then seeing the, the history of that and going, oh my goodness, there's so much more.

00;09;40;29 - 00;09;41;08
Andrew Arndt
Yeah.

00;09;41;08 - 00;09;43;23
Joshua Hoffert
Than, than I ever realized.

00;09;43;25 - 00;09;44;10
Andrew Arndt
Yeah, yeah.

00;09;44;10 - 00;10;12;06
Joshua Hoffert
And, and I wonder, I guess what two, two questions and you could choose which way you want to go is because I'm kind of, you know, pulled in two different directions is, you know, in terms of the, the there's a number of times you talk about moments, preaching and an invitation to the people and being left in tears in the book.

00;10;12;08 - 00;10;28;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And there's a few of those types of stories. Yeah. And, you know, you're the, the talking about in the Lenten journey you were talking about, did you get all the, the accolades afterwards and then have to deal with Monday that they don't they don't carry you on.

00;10;28;19 - 00;10;34;01
Andrew Arndt
They love the preaching. But I don't know if we made a difference. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

00;10;34;03 - 00;11;04;21
Joshua Hoffert
And I think that one is just a practical question when it comes to and well, let me characterize it this way. I was, I was, I have a good friend who's an Anglican priest. And it struck me every time I went into the church, we would record episodes, we'd hang out in this parish. And it struck me that the, the, the couple of times I attended, he had to walk up the steps to a little podium on the left and give his homily, and it seemed like a sideshow.

00;11;04;24 - 00;11;07;24
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And the main event was the Eucharist.

00;11;07;26 - 00;11;08;29
Andrew Arndt
Yeah. Right there.

00;11;09;01 - 00;11;24;14
Joshua Hoffert
And the table was front and center. And then I'd go back to my home church, and the table was off to the side, and the pulpit was front and center right. And it didn't seem like either one was perfectly right.

00;11;24;16 - 00;11;25;24
Andrew Arndt
Right, right.

00;11;25;24 - 00;11;44;23
Joshua Hoffert
It seemed like right. It seemed like, oh, I love this, and I love this. There's got to be a way to marry the two. And there's a few stories that you talked about, and a specifically one that really hit me when you were preaching and brought people forward for communion, and you guys participated, and it was this beautiful, presence filled moment.

00;11;44;29 - 00;12;11;16
Joshua Hoffert
And I'm wondering how much of what you do as a preacher in the writing and all of that, and, and as a preacher itself. How much is ad hoc? Yeah. And, you know, kind of off the cuff as you're preparing. We're talking to pastors here, right? We're thinking about that. You're preparing and it's off the cuff. And then how much of it is, hey, there's a moment right here that the holiness is filling a space that God has invited people into.

00;12;11;19 - 00;12;24;23
Joshua Hoffert
And because some some pastors, you know, the the the it's we're going to rehearse all the things that we said and make sure we get through it. And then some people, it's we don't prepare anything. We're just going to it's not unless it's spirit led. Right?

00;12;24;25 - 00;12;25;01
Andrew Arndt
Yeah.

00;12;25;02 - 00;12;33;02
Joshua Hoffert
So on on a practical level, as a preacher, how do you go about navigating that space and, and responding to those holiness moments?

00;12;33;06 - 00;12;55;15
Andrew Arndt
But those are that's a super great question. It's interesting because both of the approaches to preaching are very time honored. You know, there are those preachers who really plan everything ahead of time, and then those preachers who plan very little ahead of time, and they just kind of go for it. I was just reading recently about Saint Augustine, right.

00;12;55;15 - 00;13;22;21
Andrew Arndt
Who had I mean, during his bishopric, in Hippo. He had I mean, see, pastors now complain about how much work they have to do, and they idealize the past. You know, boy, it was just there were simpler times when you read about what Augustine did. I mean, he was like he was like negotiating land disputes and getting involved in other civil things that were happening up city, on top of Joshua preaching every single day right at the mass.

00;13;22;21 - 00;13;38;29
Andrew Arndt
And what he would do is he would meditate on the text that he was going to preach on for about an hour. Just meditate on it, pray it. Right. And then he would get up and he would just see the gospel and the commandments, the law and the promises, you know, to people. And and of course, he was he was trained as a rhetorician.

00;13;38;29 - 00;14;01;07
Andrew Arndt
So he was good, and ad hoc, fun, spontaneous moments. I'm not that way. I can't do that. I'm too much of an introvert, and I'm too afraid of creating odd social moments. So I play on everything ahead of time. So I think I really, I really think it through, and I certainly give space in my message for the wind of the spirit to blow up, for things to happen.

00;14;01;07 - 00;14;18;29
Andrew Arndt
And of course, when you get in the groove of preaching, there's just stuff that happens that you kind of plan for, of course, but so I approach it that way. But I think what part of what's beautiful about the table as the culminating point for the service? So I'm always preaching to the table. So we have community in our space that we have.

00;14;18;29 - 00;14;34;16
Andrew Arndt
We meet in school and we have communion table set up right in front of the stage. And there are steps kind of going down to it. So I'll preach up on the stage, but I'm always landing right behind the table, and it ends with the congregation standing. And let's allow the Lord now to mess with our hearts and come, Holy Spirit.

00;14;34;16 - 00;15;06;16
Andrew Arndt
And we're going to table what's great about the table and ending in that way is that the Lord can do so much more than I can do. So I'm. I'm one of my favorite theologians. Carl Bart the great. I mean, he he represents, I think, the reformed tradition so beautifully, in his own unique way. But one of the things he talks about in the first volume of his church, dogmatic, is that the word preached and then the visible word, the sacrament, both of those are things that the living word himself recruits to do his work and to actually speak into the congregation.

00;15;06;18 - 00;15;28;08
Andrew Arndt
Right. And the cool thing about that visible word, the sacrament, is that Jesus can do, I think in a lot of ways he can do, I don't know, can he do more than he can with the preached word? Maybe that's not accurate to say, but what's cool about the table is that there's so much that happens by implication, because what we're doing is just kind of setting people down in the mystery and saying, well, now we're just going to let the Holy Spirit message you.

00;15;28;10 - 00;16;03;09
Andrew Arndt
So I like those things kind of coming together. And and at any rate, the longest lasting transformation that happens in people's lives, in the worship services almost never is a direct result of anything I plan in my preparation. Usually it'll be like months later. They'll be like, you know, I remember when you were preaching on that one thing and I'll remember the topic, but then there'll be like, and then you said that one thing and they'll rattle off some sentence that supposedly came from me, and I'll go, I'm not going to I don't say this to them, but I'm like, I didn't say those words right.

00;16;03;14 - 00;16;27;21
Andrew Arndt
Well what's happening? That's the living word himself, right? Really? Actually creating a Pentecost moment for them when the preacher is babbling on and on and on. But then all of a sudden the Holy Spirit comes and interprets it to them in a language that they can understand and speaks to them. So, I don't know. I think that part of what I love about the sacramental approach that when we see how the non sacramental approach, things can tend to be just too human centered.

00;16;27;23 - 00;16;43;06
Andrew Arndt
And I'm not I'm trying to I'm trying to preach people into a mystery. I'm trying to preach people into that big space of whatever God has done for us in Jesus, right where the Holy Spirit can change our lives just by getting us inside that Jesus face. You know? Right?

00;16;43;08 - 00;16;48;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's and that's interest. That's I've just, you know, so many thoughts.

00;16;48;16 - 00;16;49;05
Andrew Arndt
That.

00;16;49;07 - 00;16;58;19
Joshua Hoffert
I think I think typically people I would guess culturally people think the role of a preacher is to explain away the mystery.

00;16;58;21 - 00;16;58;27
Andrew Arndt
Yeah.

00;16;58;27 - 00;17;01;19
Joshua Hoffert
As opposed to invite people into mystery.

00;17;01;21 - 00;17;02;08
Andrew Arndt
Yeah, yeah.

00;17;02;08 - 00;17;07;01
Joshua Hoffert
And and that's a I love that thought. That's beautiful.

00;17;07;03 - 00;17;25;03
Andrew Arndt
I think I've grown in becoming a practical preacher, over the years. But I do take pride in sometimes saying I'm the least practical preacher you're ever going to be around, you know, because I don't think that I just. We're not trying to explain things away. Paul says the mystery is revealed, but it doesn't mean that it's any less mysterious or so being revealed.

00;17;25;08 - 00;17;41;02
Andrew Arndt
Right? It still is a mystery I have not seen in years. Not heard. And, I think that sometimes, you know, I don't know, I think that things get just reduced to the level of the pragmatic and then everything gets sucked into people's lives. Yeah. Which are taken for granted. Live. So then God just becomes a piece of their lives.

00;17;41;02 - 00;17;53;16
Andrew Arndt
And can we again, can we throw people into a space where they're taken for granted? Assumptions about what life is supposed to be are just exploded because they've been brought into this other world, you know? Right. Yeah, I.

00;17;53;20 - 00;18;17;27
Joshua Hoffert
I remember a moment I had been, working with a local church over a maybe like a six week period coming in and doing some, teaching of. They had a school of about 50 students or so. I'd come in and do some teaching, and we were talking about the spiritual life, and, and I was like, pretty happy with how things were going and, you know, like, good questions.

00;18;17;27 - 00;18;24;12
Joshua Hoffert
We had a good rapport. Felt like I had some really good answers for these, you know, deep questions people are asking. Right.

00;18;24;17 - 00;18;26;22
Andrew Arndt
And,

00;18;26;24 - 00;18;49;11
Joshua Hoffert
And I remember right in the middle of this, I have this dream and, you know, to pull on our, our mutual charismatic background in that sense, where we listen to strange voices in the night. And this dream I have, I'm talking to an old spiritual father figure from years past, and he looks at me and he goes.

00;18;49;11 - 00;18;52;10
Andrew Arndt
Oh, you know, it's a shame.

00;18;52;10 - 00;18;56;15
Joshua Hoffert
That you answer all their questions so that you'll sound better.

00;18;56;18 - 00;19;02;07
Andrew Arndt
Oh, I was like, wait, what? Wow.

00;19;02;10 - 00;19;12;09
Joshua Hoffert
And I realized that that what I was taking pride in was my way. My ability to articulate all of the nuances, to answer their question rather than.

00;19;12;12 - 00;19;12;27
Andrew Arndt
Leading.

00;19;12;27 - 00;19;16;19
Joshua Hoffert
Them into the mystery and leaving them wanting more, you know? Yeah.

00;19;16;19 - 00;19;26;27
Andrew Arndt
Was it Callistus where who said that God is not a problem to be solved? Yes. But the sort. But the cause. He's the cause of our wonder. I'm trying to remember. Exact the exact quote.

00;19;27;01 - 00;19;30;18
Joshua Hoffert
It is something. I think he has mentioned that quote a couple times on the podcast.

00;19;30;18 - 00;19;50;08
Andrew Arndt
Yeah, that he's the cause of our wonder. And there's no explanation, really, in wonder. Wonder is just the dazzling that puts us in the right place in the universe. You know, like I always think about the the story of job in the Old Testament where job has all of these. He's gone to incredible suffering and has all these big questions for God, like we always have when we go through suffering.

00;19;50;08 - 00;20;13;13
Andrew Arndt
Right. And the biggest thing that he wants is a meeting that God really can explain his case. And he gets the meeting with God, and God really turns the tables on him and is like, were you there? Were you there? And where were you? And are you still wise? And, and it's this huge revelation of God. And at the end of that job 42, I mean, he falls down on his face and he's like, I spoke of things I didn't understand.

00;20;13;15 - 00;20;35;19
Andrew Arndt
My ears had heard of you, but now my eyes have seen you, and therefore I humble myself. I repent in dust and ashes. And that's the seminal moment. That's the pivotal moment that changes his life. It unlocks all of this blessing later, right in his life. And the crazy thing is that he got no answers. So God doesn't care.

00;20;35;21 - 00;20;57;01
Andrew Arndt
And God is super talkative and doesn't answer a single question is very true. But it doesn't matter anymore because once the vision of God, once the beatific vision, once that has flooded your consciousness, you go, I'm I'm good. I don't need to know all of these things because I know at a much deeper level, you know, I've come in contact with the Holy.

00;20;57;03 - 00;21;01;18
Joshua Hoffert
That one of the things I was struck on, I think what emerges and I.

00;21;01;18 - 00;21;03;14
Andrew Arndt
Don't know.

00;21;03;17 - 00;21;08;25
Joshua Hoffert
I don't know if you planned it or not this way. So I'll just try and, because I think this is part of.

00;21;08;28 - 00;21;09;18
Andrew Arndt


00;21;09;20 - 00;21;15;15
Joshua Hoffert
What you were just saying, and I and characterizing this, that what emerges is.

00;21;15;17 - 00;21;17;15
Andrew Arndt
A a.

00;21;17;17 - 00;21;22;06
Joshua Hoffert
It makes me wonder how Andrew does church in a sense.

00;21;22;09 - 00;21;23;01
Andrew Arndt


00;21;23;04 - 00;21;32;16
Joshua Hoffert
And I'm thinking I'm thinking that, you know, I've my my Anglican, Catholic, Orthodox friends are in church almost every day.

00;21;32;19 - 00;21;32;25
Andrew Arndt
Know.

00;21;32;25 - 00;21;54;26
Joshua Hoffert
They've got a liturgical service. They're entering into the rhythm of every day. I go to a spiritual retreat at a monastery, and I'm participating in the life that's ongoing. It's not like they're doing a service because I'm going. I remember going in and visiting a monastery once, coming back and thinking, I wonder, because if no one shows up, the monks are still going to go there and do their prayers.

00;21;54;26 - 00;21;56;14
Andrew Arndt
Yeah, they are right.

00;21;56;16 - 00;22;07;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And I was thinking, I wonder if some of these churches I work with, if nobody showed up, if the pastor and the worship team would still be preaching minister to the Lord, or is it? Who's it done for? Right?

00;22;08;01 - 00;22;08;19
Andrew Arndt
Big question.

00;22;08;26 - 00;22;24;19
Joshua Hoffert
A big question. And and so what I what I find emerging in your book is strings in gracious light, which makes me want to visit Denver. Too bad we just moved to BCC. You know, maybe there would have been a different trajectory. I'm reading a con man. This guy would be a good pastor.

00;22;24;22 - 00;22;25;24
Andrew Arndt
And,

00;22;25;26 - 00;22;27;29
Joshua Hoffert
What what emerges is.

00;22;28;01 - 00;22;29;21
Andrew Arndt
Maybe don't just keep building.

00;22;29;26 - 00;22;35;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I know, I was thinking that would probably if I came, he would probably poke, poke holes into the perception, you.

00;22;35;07 - 00;22;40;02
Andrew Arndt
Know, now you love it. You know,

00;22;40;05 - 00;23;06;16
Joshua Hoffert
The this kind of idea that church doesn't revolve around a service. And, and you had said at one point that the part of the point of that you were questioning the theories of salvation, right. Say the prayer and go to heaven. Yeah. And how that's been, that's been pulled apart by some excellent theologians. And we're questioning those kind of dogmatic ways of thinking today.

00;23;06;18 - 00;23;10;03
Joshua Hoffert
And that one of the things you said, it really grabbed my attention was.

00;23;10;05 - 00;23;10;28
Andrew Arndt


00;23;11;00 - 00;23;23;24
Joshua Hoffert
That you repent. You were quoting acts 238, repent and be baptized, believe in the name of Jesus Christ, forgiveness of your sins. And then you said this, then join church in the life of salvation.

00;23;23;27 - 00;23;24;15
Andrew Arndt


00;23;24;17 - 00;23;53;03
Joshua Hoffert
And so that one really arrested me. Yeah. Is is when it comes to because I understand a sacramental theology revolves around the mystery experienced on a daily basis, right? In the mundane of life, in a piece of bread and a glass of juice in many of our churches, right to toe totally mundane emblems for us, right? But become something totally mysterious and transcend our ability to comprehend them.

00;23;53;05 - 00;24;03;07
Joshua Hoffert
But so much of church life revolves around attending a service versus, revolving around the life of salvation in the church. So I was curious.

00;24;03;09 - 00;24;03;21
Andrew Arndt
How.

00;24;03;21 - 00;24;25;25
Joshua Hoffert
You would characterize your your your person comes in, they attend Sunday. Yeah. And and the goal was a great service. And now we go back to everything else we're doing. How do they how does the life of salvation play out, metered out in the local church? How would you see that? Because you can see it like you could make the case.

00;24;25;25 - 00;24;36;04
Joshua Hoffert
Anglican guys. Well, we have a prayer service in the morning and evening and all that kind of stuff. And sometimes it seems the evangelical wing, yeah, loses out on some of that.

00;24;36;04 - 00;24;37;12
Andrew Arndt
And so I was.

00;24;37;12 - 00;24;41;22
Joshua Hoffert
Like, I was like, how is that on a practical basis, how does Andrew envision that?

00;24;41;25 - 00;25;05;08
Andrew Arndt
I think that the gathering of the Saints is the center of the universe. Oh, so I really do. And I and I've had to overcome a lot to get there because I think that and, I do think that, charismatics and evangelicals have tended to prioritize the service in the wrong kind of way. Yeah. Where it's like, I maybe more evangelicals.

00;25;05;08 - 00;25;25;18
Andrew Arndt
I actually think that my charismatic roots didn't do this so much. It really was about an encounter with the Lord that changed your life. I'm in the midst of the people. I think more it's more evangelicals, and especially the pop evangelical movement, which has been like an the seeker movement, especially. Right, which has been like, let's get their butts in the seats and let's get them to pray the prayer and become giving units.

00;25;25;18 - 00;25;29;07
Andrew Arndt
And that's an unfair way of talking about it. But it's kind of true. Like South.

00;25;29;10 - 00;25;30;08
Joshua Hoffert
You're right again.

00;25;30;09 - 00;25;45;09
Andrew Arndt
Yeah, yeah. So then like the missional church movement to me, like the missional church movement that came beyond that after that was a lot. That was just a response to it. And it was like, no, the church is not. And the church is sent and we got to go out. And this, like, service centric thing is not the right.

00;25;45;09 - 00;26;08;22
Andrew Arndt
It's not the right way to approach it. Well, it's not the right way to approach it if you're not approaching it in the right way. And when you look at the theology and the practice of the church down through the centuries, all the way back to the start, there was something about that gathering of the saints together that they saw as the nuclear core of the church that initiated it, like on a weekly basis.

00;26;08;24 - 00;26;33;22
Andrew Arndt
It initiated all over again this movement of salvation that then the church was sent out and they changed the world and they came back in. It was a place where the life of the kingdom was really cultivated. And I think I've just been formed enough by those folks and also, frankly, formed enough by guys like Eugene Peterson. Sure, who just saw the gathering of the Saints as like, you know, I'm just I'm rereading Practice Resurrection, which is a meditation on Ephesians cover.

00;26;33;22 - 00;26;51;15
Andrew Arndt
Preach in Ephesians starting this Sunday. And he says that the church is a colony of heaven living in a country of death. Well, if you're going to if you're going to actually do that, live that colony at heaven thing, well, you have to there's a lot of work that you need to do when the colony gathers as the colony.

00;26;51;15 - 00;27;07;22
Andrew Arndt
And when does that happen? Happens on Sunday morning. Right. And so we have this charismatic root that we've grown up out of that I've grown up out of here at New Life Church, and I've been a part of this for eight years now. And it's part of the tribe that I grew up in. But we also have this sacramental awareness.

00;27;07;25 - 00;27;28;15
Andrew Arndt
So it's that sense that, like, we're being brought into this great mystery, but then we're trying to practice the mystery together and how we're cultivating congregational life. And there's a thousand things that go into that. But what's amazing about what I love about our church is that that gathering actually feels like community when we're gathered. Even though it's five, it's 500 people.

00;27;28;15 - 00;27;46;28
Andrew Arndt
It still feels like, no, the church family is together, and there's a huge amount of kingdom work that takes place there, and there's also a lot of organic community that develops that, you know what I mean? That goes out beyond Sunday and they really are living that acts to vision of like the church met in the temple courts and also daily from house to house.

00;27;47;01 - 00;28;09;11
Andrew Arndt
They're kind of doing it. So I just look at our services not as like an opportunity for people to get saved and then become giving units, though I want them to have an encounter with God and all of that. But I look at our gatherings as like, this is the colony and heaven is together. And so what is the spirit doing among us today that makes us more fully the body of Christ that we've been called to be?

00;28;09;13 - 00;28;27;00
Andrew Arndt
So I don't know if that answers the question at all, but I do theologically, I'm convinced. I mean, this is Ephesians 310. Yeah. Paul says that now through the church, the manifold wisdom of God is made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms. And certainly that's the church in all of its manifestations. But the church is at its church.

00;28;27;00 - 00;28;44;09
Andrew Arndt
Yes. When it is together, when the body is in space, together, when it's integrated, you know. So I do actually think the gathered communion of the saints is the center of the universe. It's the visible side of the heavenly liturgy to me, that's always taking place. So it's the manifestation of that mystery.

00;28;44;12 - 00;28;58;08
Joshua Hoffert
So do you do. You're just I'm just thinking out loud. Do you find that? I'm sure people show there are people that show up to new life. And any church in Colorado Springs? I think that's where you are. Colorado Springs, right?

00;28;58;13 - 00;29;01;25
Andrew Arndt
Yeah, yeah. That, that.

00;29;01;27 - 00;29;23;10
Joshua Hoffert
That still functionally approach it as I went to the service, planted my butt down, listen to the teaching and then left. Yeah. And so when you're as because what you're part of what you're talking about is the intentionality that you bring. The leadership team brings how you guys live your life together. Yeah. Creates and cultivates something far different, right?

00;29;23;13 - 00;29;27;14
Andrew Arndt
It does. And so it becomes hard to be that anonymous person that you're talking about.

00;29;27;19 - 00;29;42;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's my that's my question. How do they how do people how do you see all grabbed into that orbit and transformed and how they approach that and then how that you see them, oh, they see this totally different than they may have five years ago.

00;29;42;23 - 00;30;11;15
Andrew Arndt
Yes, I have from him. We've been together five and a half years now. So they have heard me beat this drum on the corporate reality of the body of Christ, the corporate reality of the mystery. They've heard me say this enough that they know what's at stake when we're in space together. And so when they see people that are new or new ish, it's just hard to remain anonymous at our church because our church is going to be like, oh, look, God has sent us somebody, and it's our responsibility now to be the body for them.

00;30;11;15 - 00;30;28;23
Andrew Arndt
Yeah, yeah, draw them in. And I just, I this past, this past Sunday, there was an elderly gentleman sitting in the back who I noticed he's been around for a couple of months, and I just haven't had a chance to say hi to him. So I went to the back right before the service and introduced myself. I'm Andrew, what's your name?

00;30;28;23 - 00;30;44;18
Andrew Arndt
You know, and he said, my name's Jack, Jack Moffett. So he said his name was. And I said, how long you been coming here now, Jack? He said, well, a couple months. And I said, well, I'm glad to see you. And how'd you get here? And he said, well, I'm, I'm, I live at this nursing home across town.

00;30;44;20 - 00;30;58;25
Andrew Arndt
I hadn't been to church in a long time because of health reasons, but I'm healthier now. I wanted to go back to church, and so I was asking around the churches in the area. Somebody recommended New Life East, and he's like, my nursing home has a service where they'll take you to whatever church you want to go to on Sunday morning.

00;30;58;25 - 00;31;13;26
Andrew Arndt
So I said, I want to go to New Life East and see, he said, so I came here. He goes, this is and he's probably in his mid 80s. He's like, this is the friendliest church I've ever been a part of. I can't even believe that you would come over and talk to me. So we had this great conversation and I was so blessed.

00;31;13;27 - 00;31;32;22
Andrew Arndt
He said those things about our church. Then I found out later this week, I told that story to our staff and they said, you know, he's a former pastor. Think, the guy is actually a he's a former pastor saying, right. There's something about how you guys are living your faith together that is incredibly kind, that it's pulled me in.

00;31;32;22 - 00;31;48;21
Andrew Arndt
I've made so many friends. I'm just sitting here with my walker in the back row, and I can't actually participate in any kind of community life beyond Sunday morning, but I've found all that I need just by coming here and eating a donut and drinking coffee and coming to the table and listening to the preaching, I found it here.

00;31;48;21 - 00;32;08;13
Andrew Arndt
So, so I'm, I'm saying all this in part also to say Joshua, like one of the things I've found incredibly challenging about ministry in the 21st century is how busy people's lives are. And so when we planted our church in Denver back in 2009, that was very much like a missional church. We're going to do, like live together all the time.

00;32;08;13 - 00;32;29;01
Andrew Arndt
We're going to see each other all the time. And I think most churches kind of have that ideal doing life all the time. We're always going to be together, right? Well, okay. But there are soccer schedules and school schedules and extracurriculars and our yoga classes that we do, and we want to get up in the mountains and play, and we have weekend stuff and let's go to the cabin at people's.

00;32;29;04 - 00;32;48;29
Andrew Arndt
The discipleship of people's time is a major issue in the 21st century. It really is grown. But I'm fortunate if I can have somebody coming to church twice a month, that to me feels like a victory. Say nothing about then belonging to a small group or coming to classes and seminars. So when they're in the building, we're doing all the work of being the church right then and there.

00;32;49;06 - 00;33;06;03
Andrew Arndt
That's happening. So I just don't I, as a pastor, I can't be like, well, we're just going to do this like precious liturgy. And then but I'm going to get you on Tuesday night with the real deep stuff. That's just not going to happen if you're in the building. We're doing the work. Yeah, we'll get a lot done.

00;33;06;05 - 00;33;22;26
Joshua Hoffert
I've been even even thinking about my, one of my Anglican friends doing morning prayer and evening prayer Monday through Friday, and he's got 60 people showing up on Sunday and three people showing up on Tuesday morning, you know, maybe.

00;33;22;27 - 00;33;24;00
Andrew Arndt
Right, right.

00;33;24;05 - 00;33;33;26
Joshua Hoffert
So it it's not exactly like trying to do a different model of formulating the life invites people in anyway.

00;33;33;28 - 00;33;34;08
Andrew Arndt
Right.

00;33;34;08 - 00;33;42;16
Joshua Hoffert
But I love it I love the intentionality aspect of that and framing I mean framing for people is so important in a context of how you approach something.

00;33;42;19 - 00;33;42;26
Andrew Arndt
That.

00;33;42;29 - 00;33;55;05
Joshua Hoffert
Changes everything about how you approach it. I remember one time I did, my friend was talking about the communion table and and going and he said, he said, this this table in front of you.

00;33;55;07 - 00;33;56;22
Andrew Arndt
Is,

00;33;56;25 - 00;34;09;18
Joshua Hoffert
Just if you just just disassembled it and put it in a pile, it'd just be scraps of wood, you know? But as soon as you put it together as a table, your frame and context for how it's used you totally changes how you approach it.

00;34;09;21 - 00;34;10;11
Andrew Arndt
Yeah.

00;34;10;13 - 00;34;13;12
Joshua Hoffert
Right now you've got it put together and you sit at it and you use it.

00;34;13;15 - 00;34;14;17
Andrew Arndt
But yeah, ten.

00;34;14;17 - 00;34;17;14
Joshua Hoffert
Minutes ago it was just a pile of wood on the floor.

00;34;17;16 - 00;34;17;23
Andrew Arndt
Yeah.

00;34;17;23 - 00;34;22;23
Joshua Hoffert
So so how you approach it changes dramatically your intentionality with it.

00;34;22;25 - 00;34;36;22
Andrew Arndt
There's no doubt about it. And so my, my people know what's at stake when we gather, like we'd say if it's we're charismatic congregation, but we say the Nicene Creed a lot. The Nicene Creed is a very big part of who we are. So we build that into our worship rhythm, and.

00;34;36;23 - 00;34;40;01
Joshua Hoffert
It's a part of who Christians are in general.

00;34;40;03 - 00;34;55;07
Andrew Arndt
But they know, for instance, like if you asked most of them, they would know there's only three stanzas. A lot of them they would know there's only three stanzas to the Creed and the church is included in the Holy Spirit stanza. And they might even be able to tell you why. Because the church is the culmination of the Triune God's work in the world.

00;34;55;07 - 00;35;14;18
Andrew Arndt
And I'll say things like, guys, when the Triune God, Triune God's in the world, it looks like this. What we're doing when we're together, as we're worshiping the Lord is we're opening the scriptures as we're caring for one another, as we're praying for the sick because we're taking care of our kids. All of this stuff that's happening, this is what it looks like when God, God's in the world.

00;35;14;26 - 00;35;31;19
Andrew Arndt
Yeah. So that's part of the preacher's task, is that we're trying to raise the stakes on what's happening when we're together. And if we can do that for people and they can, they can grasp it with their minds and with their hearts, then they'll practice it. And we won't have these thin gatherings that are just this kind of anonymous mob that comes in and comes out.

00;35;31;22 - 00;35;35;23
Andrew Arndt
We might actually see the dynamic life of the spirit break out in front of us.

00;35;35;25 - 00;35;40;03
Joshua Hoffert
So with that said, I just a just one last question because I think you have to go.

00;35;40;05 - 00;35;41;00
Andrew Arndt


00;35;41;02 - 00;35;46;27
Joshua Hoffert
And I so appreciate your time. So your 80 year old pastor comes.

00;35;46;27 - 00;35;48;04
Andrew Arndt
In hmhmm.

00;35;48;06 - 00;36;15;16
Joshua Hoffert
And, and he's caught up with how the it feels different here. There's, there's, you know, as, as, you know, characterizing it through the, the encounter you had with this retired pastor. And so someone comes into the orbit of New Life East. They come into the orbit of Andrew, aren't they? See, life seems different here. The way they approach life in the spirit seems different than so many other places I've seen.

00;36;15;18 - 00;36;40;00
Joshua Hoffert
Now I'm coming to Andrew and I'm asking. We'll go to the old desert. Father. Question. Andrew, what must I do to be saved? You know, they come in and they sit down with you and go, what do I need to do on a practical, daily level, to live and to live this life out from Monday to Saturday and then renewed all again on Sunday.

00;36;40;02 - 00;36;44;16
Joshua Hoffert
What must I do to be saved? What's the word? What does Andrew say to that person?

00;36;44;19 - 00;36;50;15
Andrew Arndt
Wow, I would say that's a really great question.

00;36;50;18 - 00;37;11;02
Andrew Arndt
I would say that you have to learn to pray. You have to learn to pray. You have to learn to get your heart into the presence of God. You have to. That's part of your life of prayer. You have to learn to engage the Scripture in a way that encounters it as the living voice of God coming to you.

00;37;11;02 - 00;37;32;13
Andrew Arndt
You have to pray. What prayer does is prayer is, the scales being ripped from our eyes so that we can see life the way that God wants us to see life. You have to learn to pray. Then, as those scales are ripped off of your eyes, you have to treat your life as, a gift of the Lord to you.

00;37;32;14 - 00;37;48;02
Andrew Arndt
Yeah. And a gift that you give back to the Lord. Every part of it has to be seen as holy. You have to see your relationships as holy. You have to see your work as holy. You have to see a recreation as holy. You have to see your money as holy. You have to see your sexuality as holy.

00;37;48;04 - 00;38;05;16
Andrew Arndt
It's a sacramental approach to life. God gives this thing. Or really, you could turn it around if you want to talk sacrament. We take what we have and we offer it up to God in the same way that we offer bread and cup and branded cup as just bread and cup. But God turns around and he gives it back to us as body and blood.

00;38;05;18 - 00;38;22;18
Andrew Arndt
And so as we learn to offer our lives up to God in their totality, God gives them back to us as things that might nourish us and nourish our hearts and sustain us. And then I just think you have to find a couple friends. So keep coming to church on Sunday because it's going to renew. All of that in church is going to keep refreshing this whole life in you.

00;38;22;21 - 00;38;39;01
Andrew Arndt
But if you can find a couple people where your soul can find safe harbor, you know what I mean? It can come to ground. And those relationships. I think you're going to go right more than you go wrong. Right? So that's that's how I that's how Andrew would answer that question. Yeah, that. Well.

00;38;39;03 - 00;38;46;15
Joshua Hoffert
It's funny, I'm just thinking of one of my favorite, Anthony, the great answers to that question.

00;38;46;17 - 00;38;47;11
Andrew Arndt
Yeah.

00;38;47;14 - 00;38;50;11
Joshua Hoffert
You know, and and everything you do, keep the Lord before your eyes.

00;38;50;15 - 00;38;56;16
Andrew Arndt
Yes. Learn to press. Right? Yes. In every place you're in, whatever place you're in, don't easily leave it or.

00;38;56;19 - 00;38;56;25
Joshua Hoffert
Leave.

00;38;56;25 - 00;39;01;22
Andrew Arndt
It. Do it. I do it according to the testimony of Holy Scripture. Yeah. And then the other one.

00;39;01;22 - 00;39;04;05
Joshua Hoffert
Whatever you do, always keep the Lord before your eyes.

00;39;04;05 - 00;39;06;11
Andrew Arndt
Always keep the Lord before your eyes.

00;39;06;14 - 00;39;24;20
Joshua Hoffert
So that's it. So I'm pointing that out. To say what you're talking about is not. Yeah, a charismatic answer. It's not an evangelical answer. It's not an orthodox Anglican Catholic answer. It's a this is a Jesus answer.

00;39;24;22 - 00;39;25;19
Andrew Arndt
I think this is.

00;39;25;20 - 00;39;31;12
Joshua Hoffert
This is the answer that's been given to people. Yeah. For all time, in all spaces.

00;39;31;15 - 00;39;49;29
Andrew Arndt
Well, what's amazing about it is that it's like where Moses says the word is not so it's not up in the heavens that you can't reach it and all of that. And then Paul riffs on that and he says the words very near you. It's in your mouth and in your heart so that you can obey. And I just think I get emotional as I think about it, but I spiritual people find spirituality to be really hard.

00;39;50;01 - 00;40;04;24
Andrew Arndt
Yeah. And so what I'm at has to do as a pastor to be like, we can do this, you can do this, you can, you can, you can pray, you can cultivate a prayer life. And it doesn't have to be the it can be it can get wildly complex. Then you can get swept up in the seventh heaven.

00;40;04;24 - 00;40;20;16
Andrew Arndt
That could happen. But if you're just simply offering yourself to God and getting quiet, it will be okay. And your life. It doesn't have to be perfect. Just like the bread and cup are not perfect, it just has to be offered. You can offer it right? You can give it to God and watch God give it back to you as blessing.

00;40;20;16 - 00;40;33;06
Andrew Arndt
And 1 or 2 friends and if you don't have any, I can help you with that. You know this is reachable, this is doable. And that's all it really might take to have the life of salvation really take more than you. So I just think it's helpful.

00;40;33;08 - 00;40;35;26
Joshua Hoffert
It's it is it is incredibly helpful.

00;40;35;28 - 00;40;38;21
Andrew Arndt
The that it's prayer is.

00;40;38;21 - 00;40;52;12
Joshua Hoffert
And I love that the first part of your answer because the prayer prayer has to be the most broadly applicable principle ever, because it can't be limited by any race, creed, income level, ethnicity or anything.

00;40;52;14 - 00;40;52;23
Andrew Arndt
Right.

00;40;52;28 - 00;41;06;15
Joshua Hoffert
And and so I think just as I'm thinking that the person coming to you going, I, I, I'm wrestling with, you know, I'm in lament over my inability to pray. That in itself is the prayer.

00;41;06;18 - 00;41;07;09
Andrew Arndt
Yes.

00;41;07;11 - 00;41;11;06
Joshua Hoffert
Right. It's like that that lament is the prayer. We see it throughout the Psalms. Right?

00;41;11;06 - 00;41;18;13
Andrew Arndt
It's I've sometimes I've sometimes told people that prayer is like, can you just find the truest thing in your soul right now and say, that's right, that's right.

00;41;18;20 - 00;41;23;07
Joshua Hoffert
I'm struggling. I don't feel you. I don't sense you. I don't know that you're here. There you go.

00;41;23;07 - 00;41;37;29
Andrew Arndt
And you don't even and you don't even have to make a request off of that. You can just say to the Lord. After that, you can just say and I just needed to know that you knew that. Yeah, yeah. And that will be fine. But what you're that's establishing a contact. Yeah. That's right. With, with a person. So yeah.

00;41;38;01 - 00;41;39;07
Andrew Arndt
Yeah yeah man.

00;41;39;07 - 00;41;53;01
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. The simplicity of that I love that. So yeah. Well everybody the you got to go check it out. A strange and gracious light. Here's the book right here. And, you can find it on, Amazon. Right. I'm sure it's on there.

00;41;53;03 - 00;41;53;23
Andrew Arndt
Yep. Yeah.

00;41;53;23 - 00;42;17;00
Joshua Hoffert
And, published by Nav press. Right. Apparel press. Herald press. Right. Herald press and, yeah, it's it's wonderful. It's super encourage you. I'll put a link to it in the, in the, the podcast description. So everybody check it out. And, hey, if you happen to be in Denver, Colorado Springs area, then you may want to check out Sunday morning.

00;42;17;00 - 00;42;19;00
Andrew Arndt
Life is about to have. Yeah.

00;42;19;03 - 00;42;25;04
Joshua Hoffert
Maybe you can see a little bit of that gracious light landing the halo on top of every Saturday.

00;42;25;06 - 00;42;30;19
Andrew Arndt
Yeah, a big, super holy. Pretty holy. Yeah, yeah. That's right, that's right.

00;42;30;22 - 00;42;39;28
Joshua Hoffert
Well, thank you so much, Andrew, for taking the time. Yeah. Pleasure. Really for sharing your heart. Yeah, sure. You shared your heart with, our listeners, and I'm just so appreciative of that.

00;42;40;00 - 00;42;41;22
Andrew Arndt
Thanks, man. Such a pleasure to be on the show.

00;42;41;28 - 00;42;47;07
Joshua Hoffert
Absolutely. And so. Well, everybody, thanks for tuning in. And until next time, God bless.