What should an anointed leader look like? Artwork

Voices from the Desert

In the early days of Christianity, men and women fled to the desert and became the wisest sages of their era. Voices from the Desert explores how the wisdom of Ancient Christianity applies to our modern world. Where do the streams of historic Christianity intersect with contemporary Christianity? And how do we come to know God deep in our heart? Join Joshua Hoffert and Murray Dueck for a deep dive into the mystics, union with God, patristic theology and what it all means in our modern world.

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Voices from the Desert

What should an anointed leader look like?

October 28, 2025 • Joshua Hoffert and Murray Dueck

How does scripture describe an anointed leader? And how is Christ the perfect example? Join Josh and Murr as they talk about the current culture of leadership development in light of Isaiah 42 and Psalm 89.

For more about Voices from the Desert, visit: https://www.patreon.com/VoicesfromtheDesert

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;33;16
Joshua Hoffert
Well, that's the thing is, he's a gifted leader, right? He's a charismatic leader, and he does a really good job for the kingdom. But guess what? The dude was an awful person. She was a leader. She's a gifted leader.

00;00;33;22 - 00;00;43;18
Joshua Hoffert
The person you leader. The person.

00;00;43;20 - 00;00;48;25
Murray Dueck
Welcome, everybody. To voices from the desert. Desert.

00;00;48;27 - 00;00;54;07
Joshua Hoffert
Desert, desert. I'm.

00;00;54;10 - 00;00;56;01
Murray Dueck
In my dogs. Looking at me around the corner.

00;00;56;02 - 00;00;59;13
Joshua Hoffert
You go. You see? You go up with the owl and I'll go down.

00;00;59;16 - 00;01;06;12
Murray Dueck
Okay. Ready? Let's try it out. Yeah. Know.

00;01;06;14 - 00;01;09;08
Murray Dueck
My minute. Ancestors are rolling in their grave, right?

00;01;09;08 - 00;01;13;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, well, if Aaron could hear us, she'd be rolling her eyes. Yeah. So, yeah.

00;01;13;23 - 00;01;22;17
Murray Dueck
I got this great shirt I'm going to wear. We're going to go into the retreat and. Yeah, with dreamwork, you know, colloquial expressions and puns. They're they're so common. Right. So I found.

00;01;22;17 - 00;01;23;00
Joshua Hoffert
These. Oh, yeah.

00;01;23;00 - 00;01;33;10
Murray Dueck
For sure. And it says, I would have I says bad, bad puns is how I roll, but it's, I.

00;01;33;10 - 00;01;34;22
Joshua Hoffert
Roll right it. Right?

00;01;34;28 - 00;01;36;27
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Oh, God, I get so much biology out of that.

00;01;37;02 - 00;01;38;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's a good one.

00;01;38;11 - 00;01;39;19
Murray Dueck
That's one.

00;01;39;21 - 00;01;45;14
Joshua Hoffert
Those and that's, it's funny that those kind of colloquial expressions you find all throughout scripture. Right.

00;01;45;14 - 00;01;49;05
Murray Dueck
Oh, that was Moses in particular. Like, yeah, it's crazy.

00;01;49;07 - 00;01;57;06
Joshua Hoffert
It's it is. They were they were the, the author of the Pentateuch. Moses, you know, was a master of language, right?

00;01;57;06 - 00;02;02;23
Murray Dueck
Oh it's amazing. Yeah. It really considering he says he doesn't speak well. Yeah. That's right. That his language.

00;02;02;28 - 00;02;03;27
Joshua Hoffert
Wrote pretty well.

00;02;04;01 - 00;02;12;28
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Well, you know, I think I have a theory on that and I've said it I might have said it before, but I believe when he's talking to God, he's being sent back to work with the Jews. Right.

00;02;13;00 - 00;02;13;11
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;02;13;14 - 00;02;15;08
Murray Dueck
I think he just spoke Egyptian.

00;02;15;10 - 00;02;17;01
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, yeah. That's very possible, right?

00;02;17;01 - 00;02;21;13
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Why would he know a Hebrew slave language, right? Yeah. I mean, anyway, I just just.

00;02;21;16 - 00;02;23;29
Joshua Hoffert
Like, given his. Given his upbringing. Yeah.

00;02;24;01 - 00;02;29;18
Murray Dueck
Giving his upbringing. Yeah. That it would have been at least a second language and probably not even that. It's, it's like.

00;02;29;20 - 00;02;30;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;02;30;11 - 00;02;32;28
Murray Dueck
A slave people. So everybody there you go. That's my theory.

00;02;32;28 - 00;02;36;27
Joshua Hoffert
Second to go. Yeah. So stick with voices from the desert. You'll get.

00;02;36;29 - 00;02;38;17
Murray Dueck
All kinds of little things.

00;02;38;22 - 00;02;41;24
Joshua Hoffert
From Murray Duke. Yes that's.

00;02;41;24 - 00;02;48;05
Murray Dueck
Right. We want to know one more. This is in the Midrash. I know it's true, which is a Jewish commentary of their commentary.

00;02;48;08 - 00;02;50;04
Joshua Hoffert
On ancient rabbis. Yeah.

00;02;50;06 - 00;03;15;07
Murray Dueck
Yeah. One of them says that when the spirit of the Lord on Moses, God took it and put it on the 70 elders, that the 70 elders prophesied the Ten Commandments in all the known languages of the earth. And their voices went throughout the world. That makes sense. And then but if you look at acts, acts one, that what they're thinking is Jesus is the Spirit of God comes on them speaking all these other languages.

00;03;15;12 - 00;03;21;29
Murray Dueck
Right. It would have a wait that's in the Midrash, because. Right. You know. Anyway, there you go. Another something free today everybody.

00;03;22;02 - 00;03;25;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And and I'll, I if I remember right a lot of the.

00;03;25;12 - 00;03;26;24
Murray Dueck
Don't ask me where it is though I have.

00;03;26;24 - 00;03;33;00
Joshua Hoffert
No where the Midrash commentary are ancient. It's a it's ancient commentary. Right. It's not.

00;03;33;03 - 00;03;33;16
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;03;33;18 - 00;03;44;09
Joshua Hoffert
So it's not like a rabbi in 1500 A.D. said that it would be a rabbi predating Jesus said something like that. Yeah, potentially. Anyway, I.

00;03;44;09 - 00;04;02;05
Murray Dueck
Can find the person who told me that who has a master's in Old Testament. So. But yeah, that's a crazy guest. Oh yeah. You would like. Well, it's a her, but she's brilliant. She's got a photographic memory, I tell you. Oh, wow. I don't get away with nothing. She. She remembers everything I've ever said. She repeats it back.

00;04;02;05 - 00;04;05;25
Murray Dueck
Do you remember when you taught? Yeah. That was 20 years ago. How do you remember that?

00;04;05;25 - 00;04;29;13
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Right. Yeah. That would be interesting. Yeah. Yeah, that's I know I've, I there's a few phrases that Moses repeats. That if you don't if you don't, not that I read the original language. I've just read commentaries that point it out. Right. Yeah, yeah. It's like, oh, he's using a turn of phrase from like, Genesis one.

00;04;29;15 - 00;04;31;05
Murray Dueck
Oh, yeah. Really?

00;04;31;07 - 00;04;46;08
Joshua Hoffert
Spirit in the desert or the wilderness. Right. And you're going, oh, he's using a phrase to show to the, to the, to the Exodus and it's like, oh, he's saying the same thing over and over again, right? Throughout the Pentateuch.

00;04;46;10 - 00;04;50;22
Murray Dueck
Oh, that would be worth I, I know you told me to get a book once by an evangelical guy. I get.

00;04;50;26 - 00;04;53;14
Joshua Hoffert
Images of the spirit, but that's a that's Klein.

00;04;53;15 - 00;05;06;19
Murray Dueck
That's it. And he has a lot of that in there. He does that. Meredith Klein goes over one for everybody. If you're interested. Is, just as you're we're talking about this because we're both, you know, prophetic guys. We love geeking out on on weird little Vegas.

00;05;06;21 - 00;05;06;29
Joshua Hoffert
Little.

00;05;06;29 - 00;05;09;20
Murray Dueck
Things. But one of them is if you got in.

00;05;09;20 - 00;05;12;02
Joshua Hoffert
A normal conversation with someone pretty difficult, right?

00;05;12;02 - 00;05;14;14
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah, that's why we have a podcast.

00;05;14;14 - 00;05;20;15
Joshua Hoffert
Because what do you do? What do you do in your life? Oh, I read about old dead people. Yeah. Yeah.

00;05;20;17 - 00;05;23;15
Murray Dueck
So. Well, if you. Yeah, that always brings back that story.

00;05;23;15 - 00;05;26;15
Joshua Hoffert
Anyway, I know you, you have a hard time not referencing what I do.

00;05;26;15 - 00;05;44;10
Murray Dueck
Oh, I see it in my mom, though, so clearly this guy with the doctor degree sat at our table and said he went and sat with everybody, his other buddies, and we were walking by. We're going out of the restaurant. He goes, and his buddies go to what do prophets talk about with these sit at tables? And the guy goes, they're just talking about some old dead people.

00;05;44;12 - 00;06;05;19
Murray Dueck
Like, but isn't it great? It's awesome. We're like, right, but back to Moses. What? Like when you read it says, and when, Jacob is cooking the meal to steal Esau birthright. It it means in the text he's cooking up or stirring up trouble, which, you know, we still have that in our language, right? But like, it's it's right in the text.

00;06;05;25 - 00;06;12;07
Joshua Hoffert
It is. Yeah. So that's a, that's a preview of, Murray's, Murray's.

00;06;12;07 - 00;06;13;22
Murray Dueck
Return. Look at my version.

00;06;13;24 - 00;06;14;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;06;14;20 - 00;06;15;18
Murray Dueck
Yeah, there it is.

00;06;15;18 - 00;06;38;05
Joshua Hoffert
So I guess we say, hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. I'm Joshua Offord. I'm here with my friend Murray Duke. If anybody new and you're not familiar with voices from the desert, well, that's who we are. So you can actually you can go check out our Patreon because there's a couple videos on the Patreon that introduce our our story, our film theology, theological.

00;06;38;07 - 00;06;38;21
Murray Dueck
Bent.

00;06;38;23 - 00;06;41;00
Joshua Hoffert
Backgrounds and bent, and.

00;06;41;00 - 00;06;42;27
Murray Dueck
I would say bent is a good word.

00;06;42;29 - 00;06;44;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right.

00;06;44;06 - 00;06;45;08
Murray Dueck
Expression and wordplay.

00;06;45;10 - 00;06;46;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. There you go.

00;06;46;01 - 00;06;48;04
Murray Dueck
That's right. So you're kind of bent.

00;06;48;06 - 00;07;20;14
Joshua Hoffert
So you could check out our Patreon for some insight into us. And if you're more intrigued, you can always join the Patreon and subscribe and support the people. Absolutely. Thank you. We have a fun episode planned for today, I hope. And they're always fun. Well, it's always fun when we get to hang out together, so. Absolutely. I, I was, I, I kind of approached Murray about doing this, because I was reading in Psalm 89.

00;07;20;15 - 00;07;22;16
Joshua Hoffert
Ooh. And,

00;07;22;18 - 00;07;25;04
Murray Dueck
One of my favorite psalms for a day, for very different reasons.

00;07;25;04 - 00;07;25;21
Joshua Hoffert
A great one.

00;07;25;28 - 00;07;27;13
Murray Dueck
So I love the end of it.

00;07;27;15 - 00;07;29;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And I loved the middle of it.

00;07;29;06 - 00;07;33;14
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And it's very it's let's see, it has covers a lot of geographical terrain.

00;07;33;14 - 00;08;00;06
Joshua Hoffert
And it does. Yeah. Well it, it, it's where, it's where it, there's a few different things about it, but it's, it's where it talks about, you now, it says the Lord spoke to a Holy one in a vision. And, it talks about how he's chosen his servant. I found my servant David, and I've anointed him with my anointing oil right.

00;08;00;08 - 00;08;23;26
Joshua Hoffert
And I thought when when I read that phrase and this is just recently, I was kind of meditating on that in prayer, and I went, you know, I wonder what the rest of these verses describe from the father's perspective, because it's him speaking, right? What the what the father's perspective on describe being what an anointed one looks like.

00;08;23;26 - 00;08;50;06
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And, that was my that was the kind of the thing I was mulling is what is it? What does it look like from the father's perspective that someone's anointed? What what is he talk like about that person? And because we talk about in, in and for those of you who are part of our charismatic circles, you'll understand the language of one anointed person.

00;08;50;06 - 00;08;50;21
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;08;50;22 - 00;08;54;10
Joshua Hoffert
For those of you that aren't in that particular circle.

00;08;54;10 - 00;08;55;19
Murray Dueck
That we might need to talk about that.

00;08;55;20 - 00;09;06;11
Joshua Hoffert
Well, we what we would tend to mean by that is a, dynamic leader who people are attracted to and follow. That's that is what.

00;09;06;14 - 00;09;13;27
Murray Dueck
You know, there is a unction or charism of the Holy Spirit, an anointing upon their life that is like God is using.

00;09;13;28 - 00;09;14;12
Joshua Hoffert
It up with.

00;09;14;15 - 00;09;19;27
Murray Dueck
Well, they have something that God has set them apart. We would use the term anointed for that.

00;09;19;27 - 00;09;26;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. And so I'm, I'm there's I want to make distinctions here right where.

00;09;26;15 - 00;09;33;02
Murray Dueck
My charismatic guy is going to get all it like being a charismatic dorks. I get to play every part of me in this life.

00;09;33;02 - 00;09;49;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's right, it's fair. It's fun for you. So I, I want to make the distinction in one sense between. What the Bible describes as someone who's anointed, what we mean culturally as someone who's anointed, which.

00;09;49;11 - 00;09;50;25
Murray Dueck
I just described culturally. Everybody.

00;09;50;25 - 00;10;12;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yes, culturally. So in terms of the charismatic world, we would we so when I say the, the, the translation or the transliteration into maybe, conservative evangelical or reformed circle would be a dynamic speaker and leader who attracts people to themselves.

00;10;12;21 - 00;10;15;11
Murray Dueck
And they might use the term that person's really gifted.

00;10;15;13 - 00;10;38;14
Joshua Hoffert
They might. Yes, they may say he's a gifted, he's gifted, he's a gifted teacher. He's a gifted speaker. He's a gifted leader. Right. And so when a when a charismatic person says, as Marie just said, someone who has a unction from the Holy Spirit set aside and has been, you know, they does. And the Lord works powerfully through that person, right?

00;10;38;19 - 00;11;13;02
Joshua Hoffert
That's the hope. That's what we would anticipate. Now, I think you have to start to parse out, because now what qualifies as we've got the the people who go, well, I'm an anointed prophet, or they're an anointed apostle or, you know, they're they're set aside and they're anointed to tear down strongholds and, oh, God, to government positions. And, you know, so it's taken on a lot of different meanings when when you say an anointed person, right.

00;11;13;03 - 00;11;23;03
Joshua Hoffert
And I, I thinking back to my, conversations with my Anglican friends when I asked him, what a call. And we've had him on the podcast.

00;11;23;04 - 00;11;24;13
Murray Dueck
Yeah, he's had I like.

00;11;24;13 - 00;11;36;29
Joshua Hoffert
What what in your if I said to you I had an anointing from the Lord or. No, I had an unction from the Lord. What would you think I meant? And he said, well, I wonder where your vial of oil was.

00;11;36;29 - 00;11;38;18
Murray Dueck
Yeah. That's right, I remember that.

00;11;38;25 - 00;12;05;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. They call the the anointing vial. The unction. Right. So, so there's this cross-cultural stuff and trying to translate between, between the language that we use in different church circles. And so a because you're going to talk to a Catholic, Anglican, Orthodox guy and the anointing is going to take on an entirely different flavor there, right?

00;12;05;29 - 00;12;21;03
Murray Dueck
Well, they would say that. Well, I mean, there's oh boy, there's a couple there's ditches on both sides of the road here, you know, so with a you might have I shouldn't have had this. There's caffeine in here. I could tell that this area.

00;12;21;03 - 00;12;22;24
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, you're going to get. Yeah.

00;12;22;26 - 00;12;33;03
Murray Dueck
Because I'm getting rather motivated and I and I, I don't think it's the Spirit of God. I don't think it's anointing. I think it's caffeine. And and that's that's part of the problem. And, I.

00;12;33;05 - 00;12;33;22
Joshua Hoffert
Actually.

00;12;33;22 - 00;12;52;03
Murray Dueck
I like honestly, guys, I was in a church where. And you're going to just your jaw is going to drop when you hear this. So one of the way, how do you know somebody is an apostle in the charismatic movement? So so again, there's probably 30,000 different types of charismatics, right. Just like there's lots of baptism. So let's not pigeonhole everyone here.

00;12;52;03 - 00;13;16;02
Murray Dueck
But one of the ways that it's spun, they have an anointing apostolic to build. They build things. They build churches, ministries. Yeah, yeah. They build structure. They build culture. They build right. They have vision. So vision then becomes the defining characteristic which, you know, you could go to Greece today and you'll see in a newspaper apostle needed must have owned bicycle.

00;13;16;09 - 00;13;22;18
Murray Dueck
There were two possible just means messenger right. So it's become a missionary. So that Greek.

00;13;22;18 - 00;13;24;01
Joshua Hoffert
Word is apostolos.

00;13;24;03 - 00;13;46;00
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Yeah. So so I'm in this church, a vineyard church. God bless the vineyard movement. And we have this guy who is starting, you know, we're going to be an apostolic center. And, you know, he he's a vision guy. Oh my goodness. Does he have vision and and and the problem was, is that he would come up with a new vision every three weeks.

00;13;46;00 - 00;14;03;25
Murray Dueck
And it would it would change. And if he was doing poorly, he would have a new vision. Right. So if you emotionally crashed, you get a new vision. It turns out in the end, it wasn't that he wasn't an apostle. He was mentally ill. He was bipolar. Right? Because bipolar people guess what they do. They have really high highs where they cast vision, you know?

00;14;03;27 - 00;14;22;10
Murray Dueck
And when you're in a church culture that can't tell the difference between mental illness and apostolic ministry. Yeah, because it's all based on vision. That's a significant problem, let's just say. And so I will never be invited to speak at another prophetic conference again.

00;14;22;13 - 00;14;25;06
Joshua Hoffert
So nor would you want to know.

00;14;25;06 - 00;14;36;02
Murray Dueck
So I just heard, you know, I did. Am I partly charismatic? Absolutely I am, but but if we can't take into the character development and what it means to carry something.

00;14;36;05 - 00;14;37;09
Joshua Hoffert
Well, and that's where.

00;14;37;12 - 00;14;39;26
Murray Dueck
Mercy. All right. Well, I just anyway.

00;14;39;29 - 00;14;48;10
Joshua Hoffert
I was reading and thinking about this in light of, recent, recent revelation events. Yeah.

00;14;48;12 - 00;14;49;12
Murray Dueck
In time revelation.

00;14;49;12 - 00;15;13;27
Joshua Hoffert
You, not a just I, not a super well known leader in Canada, but a leader in Canada that that people style as a national leader, especially someone who speaks into political figures who was recently circulated that he's there's a photo of him sent to some women where he's wearing his ministry branded sweatshirt, and his pants are off, and he takes a picture of his rear end.

00;15;13;28 - 00;15;21;01
Murray Dueck
That's why I said in time revelation. It goes back to colloquial expression. Yeah. Did play, like.

00;15;21;02 - 00;15;34;17
Joshua Hoffert
Naked in Texas. It to this woman and that's that. It was just it was just hijinx and you're like, okay, so I was thinking about it in light of the kind of leaders that we have today.

00;15;34;19 - 00;15;35;02
Murray Dueck
Right?

00;15;35;02 - 00;16;02;02
Joshua Hoffert
Have mercy on how people just seem to be so quick to excuse. Whether it's all of the controversy with Mike Bickle that we've talked about, whether it's the the Robert Morris and the stuff that he did earlier in his ministry, that people are like, they just swept under the rug and decided they'd forget about it. Whether it was we talked about the the guy who, Rick Joyner put in place and Morning Star and went, oh, yeah.

00;16;02;03 - 00;16;09;11
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, no, like he had an affair, but it's okay because, you know, he repented. And a year later, he's set to take over the whole church. Right.

00;16;09;13 - 00;16;40;26
Murray Dueck
And so that that really describes everybody. I just want to stop on that one. Because because here's the problem with anointing. So and I think this happens in corporate culture, I think I think it happens everywhere. But it shouldn't happen in the Christian church where, where because somebody has a gift and can lead that if, you know, they find out three years earlier, okay, this guy did this thing and it's like, oh, well, he's repented, okay.

00;16;41;01 - 00;17;07;07
Murray Dueck
But is it motivated by his upbringing? Is it motivated by wounding? Is it motivated by culture? Is it motivated by a need for power? Like how or how is this getting healing right? What did you put in place before you made him a leader based on his gift? Where you're working on his character, where is that? Right. And so to think that somebody can just go, well, they they've said they're sorry.

00;17;07;07 - 00;17;21;05
Murray Dueck
So now we're going to make them the CEO of the whole thing, because they said their story without realizing that culture doesn't change based on your words. It's based on what comes out of your heart. Well, there's a part of me, guys. Rise of the patristic.

00;17;21;05 - 00;17;27;07
Joshua Hoffert
Well, and it should be. That should be just that shouldn't you shouldn't have to say that's an orthodox part of you. That's just, what.

00;17;27;07 - 00;17;29;23
Murray Dueck
Should be I should, I should just be.

00;17;29;26 - 00;17;51;13
Joshua Hoffert
That's the part of us that cares about the health of the bride of Christ, right? Like so. So I go, so that's the question about we're looking at Psalm 129 20 or Psalm 89 when I was reading that is so what are the qualities that we should look for when someone says they're anointed? Or what are the qualities we should look for when we look for someone who's a gifted leader or teacher?

00;17;51;16 - 00;17;56;18
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Like what? What? Because this is obviously Psalm 89 is speaking of Jesus. Ultimately.

00;17;56;22 - 00;17;57;08
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;17;57;10 - 00;18;09;27
Joshua Hoffert
But it also lays out what David was, was like and what the prophetic words about him were like. So what did David look like? What did it look? So anyway, I thought it would be a good way to think about here.

00;18;10;00 - 00;18;11;25
Murray Dueck
There was no way we were doing this in one episode.

00;18;11;26 - 00;18;13;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, this. It's true.

00;18;13;05 - 00;18;14;20
Murray Dueck
So, which is.

00;18;14;23 - 00;18;42;09
Joshua Hoffert
We have a guest on next week anyway to talk more about this. So we're going what are the qualities? Because we're looking at people who people say they are gifted and anointed by God. And but then we see all of these, all of these, whether they're small or large, character flaws. And it's not that they need to be perfect, but there's certain things that I think the scriptures lay out that are that we totally ignore.

00;18;42;16 - 00;18;50;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that are good. Wow. So we're not saying, well, let me I'll say it this way. Just you made me think about this.

00;18;50;25 - 00;18;51;29
Murray Dueck
I'm glad I make you think, you know.

00;18;51;29 - 00;19;21;23
Joshua Hoffert
Who was a who was a gifted leader in scripture. Herod Herod Antipas was a gifted leader in scripture, right? Like he navigated the things of the kingdom of Israel quite well, actually, in relation to the Roman government and helped to navigate a, a season, or a years of favor. He, he carved out a place in the Roman government for the Jews that was distinct from anybody else.

00;19;21;25 - 00;19;28;12
Joshua Hoffert
Did a really good job doing that. He renovated the temple, resuscitated Jewish worship. Right.

00;19;28;15 - 00;19;37;13
Murray Dueck
That's a way to look at it. Wow. Here's a Roman saying. The Romans had a saying about Herod that it was better to be Herod's. I Herod's dog than his sons, because he killed them all.

00;19;37;13 - 00;19;38;12
Joshua Hoffert
Because exactly.

00;19;38;12 - 00;19;39;01
Murray Dueck
There.

00;19;39;04 - 00;20;02;08
Joshua Hoffert
Well, that's the thing is, he's a gifted leader, right? He's a charismatic leader. And and he does a really good job for the kingdom. But guess what? The dude was an awful person, right? And so, yeah. And we can recognize the how much of an awful person he was. He kills John the Baptist. Yeah, right. Because he wants to sleep with his daughter or his daughter in law.

00;20;02;09 - 00;20;40;04
Joshua Hoffert
What is what it was, I think. And you're just like, the dude has his brothers. Maybe his brother's wife. I can't remember too well. Anyway, the dude had so many problems, but what it amounts to was. So I'm the comparison I'm making it is there's lots of leaders that are gifted in their ability to manage a organizational structure that produces growth and, and, a semblance of, responsibility, acclaim, notoriety, all that kind of stuff because of how they lead.

00;20;40;04 - 00;21;06;03
Joshua Hoffert
But that doesn't mean that they fit the qualities and characteristics that God lays out for what an anointed individual called and set apart for his purposes would look like. And so what we want to do is not so much say, well, all of these people aren't that, but we just want to go, let's hold the scriptures up and go, you know, let's hold the scriptures up and go, hey guys, this is what the Bible lays out, that a person like this should look like.

00;21;06;05 - 00;21;27;13
Joshua Hoffert
So as you are listening, and and the what the thing that we hope to contribute to that conversation is you go, okay, well, this is helpful so that I can see what I the kind of people I should be looking for to surround myself in my life, that that would be good, godly leaders. Right?

00;21;27;15 - 00;21;32;05
Murray Dueck
That that's a good summation right there. That's a good bullseye. What should I be looking for?

00;21;32;05 - 00;21;56;19
Joshua Hoffert
Rather than what should we all be looking for? Right. It's it's it's the same when it comes to all of the the craziness that surrounded the Trump prophecies in 2020, right? When Trump wasn't elected. What kind of voice should you be listening to? It's similar in the question what kind of voices should we be listen to? What kind of leaders should we be?

00;21;56;22 - 00;22;20;15
Joshua Hoffert
Drawing closer to? And the the, the big distinction is going to be one of the big distinctions, I think is going to be the the leaders, the best leaders are unseen. Yeah. And and have a value and desire to be unseen. And with us, something we've talked about. Right. Going back to the letters of a bonus.

00;22;20;18 - 00;22;22;28
Murray Dueck
You know, that won't go into my brain.

00;22;22;29 - 00;22;36;04
Joshua Hoffert
The disciple of Anthony the Great, like the the greatest leaders desire to be unseen and and struggle when they're put into the limelight, struggle with being seen when they're put into the limelight.

00;22;36;06 - 00;22;54;16
Murray Dueck
You know, everybody, it makes sense. Like when you read The Desert Fathers, how often they act crazy like. And. Oh yeah, and run into the woods so nobody can find them. And it's like, like when people are putting somebody on a pedestal due to their gifting and not just their gifting, their own personal need for healing or direction or whatever.

00;22;54;20 - 00;23;17;10
Murray Dueck
So somebody becomes a God instead of God on their behalf. Now, what are these people who have the gift or are trying to get away because you're actually reinforcing in people their own idolization of the gift of the person. Right? And, you know, the Desert Fathers are like, please don't do that. Yeah, right. I remember one, was it not the Emperor was somebody way up there?

00;23;17;13 - 00;23;35;10
Murray Dueck
Came to one of the few you'll probably know. The desert father came in, sat with him. His his disciples brought this guy by, and he didn't talk to him for, like, three days. And finally he left dejected. And he said, you know, his disciples go, father, why didn't you say anything to him? He came, you know, and he said, if he cannot hear my silence, he cannot hear my words.

00;23;35;10 - 00;23;39;03
Murray Dueck
Right? Yeah. You know, such a classic desert father thing to say, right. Well, it's.

00;23;39;03 - 00;23;39;20
Joshua Hoffert
Such an it's.

00;23;39;20 - 00;23;41;13
Murray Dueck
Such a he's that important.

00;23;41;15 - 00;24;05;14
Joshua Hoffert
It's such a different. It's it's actually I'm, I want to read this before we get into the Psalm 89 thing because it, it was another it was another passage that struck me in regards to the conversation today about what what are the marks of a, of a leader set aside by, by the father. Right. It was in.

00;24;05;16 - 00;24;12;05
Murray Dueck
This this is such a, where I think about this is more, the points are getting bigger.

00;24;12;13 - 00;24;35;28
Joshua Hoffert
And they are, aren't they? This is first Thessalonians one, verse eight. And so and so Paul's talking about how, the amazing conversion of the, of the church in Thessalonica. Thessalonica? Right. He's talking about all the things that they've, that they've been that that have happened through them. And he goes for not only has the word of the Lord sounded forth from you in Macedonia and Achaea, what's your faith in?

00;24;35;28 - 00;24;46;01
Joshua Hoffert
God has gone forth everywhere, right? Like what people have heard about you. And he goes, and he says this so that we need not say anything. Wow.

00;24;46;01 - 00;24;47;09
Murray Dueck
What if that was there?

00;24;47;10 - 00;24;57;18
Joshua Hoffert
Like, what a farce. And it was the thing that struck me the other day when I was reading it, going, Paul goes, we don't even need to talk about what we've done amongst you.

00;24;57;23 - 00;24;58;28
Murray Dueck
What? Where is that verse?

00;24;58;28 - 00;25;00;22
Joshua Hoffert
First Thessalonians one eight.

00;25;00;24 - 00;25;01;12
Murray Dueck
I want to look that.

00;25;01;12 - 00;25;27;09
Joshua Hoffert
Up. We don't need to talk about what we've done among you, because what who you are and what people see in you speaks volumes more than we could ever say. So we don't even need to say anything. So that the flip side of that is that today, in the cultural environment, we find ourselves in, the way that a ministry is built, is you talk all the time about the wonderful things you do for people.

00;25;27;11 - 00;25;51;03
Joshua Hoffert
But in Paul's day, what the the cultural dynamic was, is the people talk about all the wonderful things you've done for them. Right? So the the way that Paul's notoriety increased was that he didn't say anything. And the people said everything. The way notoriety increases today as you say, everything to gain traction and, and, to gain traction with an audience online.

00;25;51;03 - 00;25;52;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right. So you.

00;25;52;02 - 00;25;52;09
Murray Dueck
Know what.

00;25;52;17 - 00;25;57;07
Joshua Hoffert
The dynamic is? Could not be more polar opposite of each other.

00;25;57;10 - 00;26;08;20
Murray Dueck
This is an interesting thing. Father Mike told me once. I remember sitting down, and it really surprised me. And, I remember again, he's. He came out of a charismatic culture, and then converted to Orthodoxy. So, you know.

00;26;08;21 - 00;26;10;08
Joshua Hoffert
Foursquare was his background, right?

00;26;10;09 - 00;26;32;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah. That, that that the vineyard and the Orthodox Church are on different streets, but they share a back alley, right? So we could talk. But remember, he's got his fingers in really hardcore orthodoxy, too. He knows that group as well. And he said that for a lot of Orthodox people, they look at, at evangelicals and charismatics as if there were Muslims and like.

00;26;32;14 - 00;26;49;15
Murray Dueck
And like what? What are you what are you saying? It goes people off the book, right. That's that's what Muslims call themselves, the people of the book. And he said, if you want to be a leader in Islam, what you do is you start, you memorize the book and then you start preaching, and then you gather a following based on your charisma.

00;26;49;17 - 00;26;52;15
Murray Dueck
Right? Doesn't that sound like charismatic leaders in the charismatic church?

00;26;52;21 - 00;26;53;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;26;53;08 - 00;27;13;18
Murray Dueck
I'm like, yeah, because for them you have a bishop. And then who? And the bishop goes back to the apostles, and the anointing has come by the laying on of hand and apostolic succession. It's not because somebody has got a gift, it's because somebody has been placed by a spiritual father in relationship.

00;27;13;20 - 00;27;17;01
Joshua Hoffert
In relationship recognizing the tenderness of their heart.

00;27;17;01 - 00;27;25;15
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah. And and we don't do that at all in the charismatic evangelical world. And they would say, well, you guys, you're more like mazel. It's like, wow, that's a statement.

00;27;25;18 - 00;27;53;25
Joshua Hoffert
What? Maria and I are saying is there were again and again, you go back and listen to, Murray talking about his church background in on the Patreon. Right. It's Murray's not a he's not Orthodox. He does not belong to the Orthodox Church. But but what respect for that? Well, we have a lot of respect for because we look at those kind of practices and go, hey, there's a relational affection that led someone into a position that was an honor bestowed upon them.

00;27;53;25 - 00;28;08;08
Joshua Hoffert
That is humbling. And it's not it's not a braggadocious place where now we get to build a following, so that so we have this massive impact. It's not it's the total opposite of that. And today, you know, and.

00;28;08;11 - 00;28;13;12
Murray Dueck
And I think maybe they take that too far because I still am an independent charismatic ministry. Right. But I.

00;28;13;17 - 00;28;14;08
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;28;14;10 - 00;28;17;11
Murray Dueck
Who has the principle there and people principles that. Right.

00;28;17;15 - 00;28;40;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That that we look at and we go there's principles, the principle that that and actually the organization that you and I belong to. Right. We have our national gathering happening here in September really tries to style itself that way. Relational affection, affiliation, because we're friends and, and we're not trying to build and grow something with a great notoriety and name.

00;28;40;16 - 00;28;44;22
Joshua Hoffert
We're actually kind of under the radar. Yeah. And, I got.

00;28;44;22 - 00;29;01;22
Murray Dueck
To tell a good story about, see, which we, we probably have shared before, but Steve is the he's on my board. He's, you know, he's Josh's mentor to and I you to. Yeah. There you go. Podcast before and so the story is God tells him. Yeah. Steve, you know, I, I get it a bit wrong. We should have him come.

00;29;01;22 - 00;29;07;20
Murray Dueck
Coming. But I'll get it close enough for the point, because he's an apostolic guy. So, you know, we talk about.

00;29;07;22 - 00;29;09;05
Joshua Hoffert
Bristles when you say that too.

00;29;09;05 - 00;29;15;07
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He rather use the word father, although he bristles at that too, which God has had a chat with him about like. Yeah, yeah.

00;29;15;07 - 00;29;16;06
Joshua Hoffert
That's right, that's right.

00;29;16;06 - 00;29;29;15
Murray Dueck
So for God, I think the Lord says to him, I want you to ask me for something because what is it, Lord? Ask me for the Save-On-Foods building in Hope, right? Which is a yeah, it was a big grocery store that had gone to 80.

00;29;29;16 - 00;29;30;03
Joshua Hoffert
It's it was the.

00;29;30;03 - 00;29;47;11
Murray Dueck
Overall the overweight. Yeah. Right. Like the precursor to Save-On-Foods. It's at by Faith they get to build it by faith. This mass cost him like a buck I don't know. So it was amazing story. And then so they open it up to all these other ministries. And God says to Steve, don't put your name on the building. Right.

00;29;47;16 - 00;29;57;19
Murray Dueck
So he's walking around the corridor one day and there is this other group on a ladder putting on their building, their church side. Yeah. God says to Steve, Steve, go hold their ladder for them.

00;29;57;25 - 00;30;04;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yes, Lord, this is exactly as it played out. Yeah, I know, that's it.

00;30;04;27 - 00;30;08;14
Murray Dueck
Tell them to put the the sign up really well because there's a strong wind here.

00;30;08;20 - 00;30;09;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yes Lord. That's right.

00;30;10;04 - 00;30;18;29
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And Steve doesn't do that with his ministry because he's there to serve and to love as a. Yeah. Also lifting up other people. Oh yeah. That's a there's no.

00;30;18;29 - 00;30;21;07
Joshua Hoffert
Name on the building. Right. That's the whole point is.

00;30;21;10 - 00;30;23;13
Murray Dueck
So I just thought that so echoed what you just said.

00;30;23;13 - 00;30;30;10
Joshua Hoffert
Like so you know the the the the what happened the next week. I did that story. No, it took the sign down.

00;30;30;12 - 00;30;33;15
Murray Dueck
Oh they did okay. I thought they did eventually, but they did.

00;30;33;15 - 00;30;42;03
Joshua Hoffert
Or maybe a couple of weeks later, I don't know how long it was, but it was another church that was that lost their building. That was meeting in the, in the, the hope. So why did.

00;30;42;03 - 00;30;43;11
Murray Dueck
They take it down? Do you have any idea?

00;30;43;14 - 00;30;52;00
Joshua Hoffert
He said he said we took it down because we realized you guys never put a sign up. And so we just went, I don't think we need a sign either.

00;30;52;02 - 00;30;52;28
Murray Dueck
Good for them.

00;30;52;29 - 00;30;53;27
Joshua Hoffert
And so.

00;30;53;27 - 00;30;55;09
Murray Dueck
So that I don't know that.

00;30;55;16 - 00;30;58;06
Joshua Hoffert
This is but that's the so this is the thing is.

00;30;58;06 - 00;30;59;23
Murray Dueck
Modeling there. Yeah.

00;30;59;25 - 00;31;21;04
Joshua Hoffert
That's the quality that's laid out in Scripture of what an anointed leader looks like. So we tend to think an anointed leader culturally looks like a very charismatic person that draws people to themselves. And so the more charismatic they are, the more the more fame that they have, the more anointed they must be. Because the anointing attracts. Right?

00;31;21;04 - 00;31;32;06
Joshua Hoffert
Like you're going to. You hear? We hear that all the time and are charismatic, but the anointing attracts. And, John Paul used to say, the anointing covers up ugly. And

00;31;32;08 - 00;31;35;27
Murray Dueck
So I look at that because that's true. I've never heard that. Yep.

00;31;36;00 - 00;31;37;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's good. Yeah.

00;31;37;08 - 00;31;48;23
Murray Dueck
It's like lipstick on a pig. Sorry, everybody. I some charismatics just bristle there. But. So yeah, you can get all like John Paul used to say. You you, build with your gift what you destroy with your character.

00;31;48;25 - 00;31;49;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So. Exactly. Yeah.

00;31;49;29 - 00;31;51;15
Murray Dueck
There would be another way to say it. Right?

00;31;51;18 - 00;32;01;13
Joshua Hoffert
But I would say. I would say I don't think of the anointing covers ugly. I think I think Cara's charismatic. People have a way of being able to cover up the ugly.

00;32;01;15 - 00;32;02;00
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;32;02;01 - 00;32;20;29
Joshua Hoffert
And I think when the scriptures, the scriptures show someone who's truly anointed by God and set apart, there's certain characteristics. So I want to there's a couple things I want to point out. Yeah, it's warm 89. And then we'll, you know, we'll keep the conversation going. Maybe we'll do a second episode when we will do a follow up.

00;32;20;29 - 00;32;21;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Because we'll.

00;32;21;25 - 00;32;25;01
Murray Dueck
Talk. Yeah. There's, there's a lot of points in here that so.

00;32;25;08 - 00;32;51;19
Joshua Hoffert
So the first one, the first thing that struck me is, when it says in Psalm 89, verse 20, I found David, my servant, with my holy oil. I've anointed him right. So the first one is it says, I have found him, right? Not that he's been discovered or he's discovered himself. He's been found by God. And so there's a humility there that's right off the bat that you are not you don't find God.

00;32;51;19 - 00;33;08;13
Joshua Hoffert
You don't find your way. God finds you. Right? The Scripture is talking about the the eyes of the Lord roved to, over, to and fro, over the earth, looking for, someone who could be called righteous upon. We could put his spirit right. He God is the one who finds David and and he finds David in absolute obscurity.

00;33;08;16 - 00;33;28;27
Joshua Hoffert
Right? He finds David in a place where no one else is going to look for him. He finds David tending the sheep out in the flock. And if the the net for the I think it's the Amazon Prime show about David is to be believed because some of the rabbis have thought this is David's. David's was born out of an affair, out of wedlock.

00;33;29;00 - 00;33;30;25
Joshua Hoffert
And, and so here's.

00;33;30;25 - 00;33;31;27
Murray Dueck
Why he's not invited.

00;33;31;27 - 00;33;32;26
Joshua Hoffert
Why he's not invited.

00;33;32;26 - 00;33;34;01
Murray Dueck
They're brothers. Yeah.

00;33;34;03 - 00;34;01;24
Joshua Hoffert
So on it, so, you know, that's a bit of interpretation there, but maybe so David is found not a favored son. Not. He's the smallest one of all of them. He's not the one that should be the one chosen. Right? I love the scene. Yeah. When Samuel in that and the prime show on David, walks he he looks at, you know, the, the, the son with the most stature.

00;34;01;26 - 00;34;02;08
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;34;02;08 - 00;34;04;21
Murray Dueck
And he goes, really? This is the way he.

00;34;04;21 - 00;34;14;10
Joshua Hoffert
Looks at him and he goes, you know, something like that. Surely this is the one. And then he looks at him closely and he says, surely. Anyway, there's so much fear in your eyes as what he says.

00;34;14;12 - 00;34;14;29
Murray Dueck
Really?

00;34;15;01 - 00;34;21;29
Joshua Hoffert
The guy? Oh, yeah. It's a it's a powerful, you know, depiction of that, that whole, that whole interact. I have to.

00;34;21;29 - 00;34;23;16
Murray Dueck
Go watch the show. It's very interesting.

00;34;23;16 - 00;34;46;08
Joshua Hoffert
It's a, it's a real it's that that particular scene is like, it will move you like, oh man. Wow. So anyway, so he goes, I found my servant David. Right. So the first thing is God finds him in complete obscurity. The second thing is he calls him his servant, right? Not his king, not his priest, not his poet, not his almost modest leader.

00;34;46;10 - 00;35;16;29
Joshua Hoffert
He calls him a servant. Right. So that's the very first characteristic of David is he's obscure, he's unseen, he's humble, and he's a servant. So all of these seem wildly juxtaposed with the braggadocious way that people approach ministry positions. Now. Right? Like, like I'm thinking back to, another characterizing this through another story in the Desert Fathers, all the Longinus who was known as a he had to.

00;35;16;29 - 00;35;27;17
Joshua Hoffert
He's known that if you prayed for him, you'd be healed. And a woman who has breast cancer goes to him. Right. She's. I've said I've shared this story on the podcast. I think many times where, she's I don't remember it.

00;35;27;17 - 00;35;28;01
Murray Dueck
So I'm looking.

00;35;28;01 - 00;35;42;29
Joshua Hoffert
Forward. Well, she's looking for Longinus, so she goes to some people in the area and asks, where is he? And they point out, well, he's generally hanging out in this vicinity. So she goes and finds a, dude hanging out in a tree and she goes, hey, I'm looking for Abu Longinus. And he says.

00;35;42;29 - 00;35;44;16
Murray Dueck
What do you want with that? Crazy.

00;35;44;18 - 00;35;44;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;35;44;25 - 00;35;45;27
Murray Dueck
He's okay. I go.

00;35;45;28 - 00;35;58;26
Joshua Hoffert
What do you want with that imposter? Is what she what he says, really? And and she goes, well, I heard that if he prays for me, I'll be healed. And she said, you know, he says you don't need him. Just make the sign of the cross. Turn your heart and affection to the father and or in faith of the father, and he'll heal you.

00;35;59;04 - 00;36;14;14
Joshua Hoffert
So she does that, walks away and goes, I never needed Longinus. Great. The Lord healed me, right? So then she comes across the people again and they say, what happened? And I've been healed right now. Well, what? Did you ever find Longinus and says, no, I didn't, I just found a crazy guy in a tree. Told me not to look for Longinus anymore.

00;36;14;14 - 00;36;33;08
Joshua Hoffert
And they said, well, what did he look like? And she describes him. And they said, well, that was Longinus. All right. So so today that would be if Longinus, you know, that Longinus heals. Now is the time to talk about the healing testimony, right? We need to interview her, interview the person, talk about the healing. We got a healing ministry now.

00;36;33;08 - 00;36;51;28
Joshua Hoffert
We got to have healing crusades and meetings. But the opposite. The opposite is actually what's real is. And this is what we see in the person of Jesus. To Jesus constantly tells people not to talk about what he's done, and so he's never the one that tells you what happened.

00;36;51;28 - 00;36;52;20
Murray Dueck
His tires.

00;36;52;20 - 00;37;21;15
Joshua Hoffert
He's never the one that tells you what quote unquote, his ministry is like everyone else does. And that's what Paul is saying, right? Paul is saying that in first Thessalonians, he is not the one that tells you what his ministry is like. Other people are. So is the great, the great. Social media drives paying for suggested post, making sure that you cover the right things, having a having polls out there that say what topics do you want to listen to?

00;37;21;22 - 00;37;48;08
Joshua Hoffert
All these things while they're not wrong, they're a strategy for building a following. And and you know, maybe the Lord says do that. You know, I wouldn't put it past him to say that, but it's a at this point, it's just become the de facto what you have to do to build a ministry. Yeah, right. And that therein lies the problem is it's a cultural assumption that this is how you go about doing things right.

00;37;48;08 - 00;38;13;00
Joshua Hoffert
So I get suggested posts on my Facebook feed all the time about how to make your, how to take your sermons and make great clickbait titles and videos, and then use those to increase your online presence so that your church will grow. Right. The the the attraction is so subtle, but so like if you just do these things, you'll have more.

00;38;13;07 - 00;38;32;09
Joshua Hoffert
It sounds so much like the devil in the in the temptations of Jesus. Like, if you just will do these few things, I'll give you everything right? Like you can just hear it. And and the allure of it is so attractive that you go, oh, and because you just assume that's what you're supposed to do, that you go and do it.

00;38;32;11 - 00;38;57;17
Joshua Hoffert
But here you've got obscure David, hidden in the wilderness, called out as a servant, not as a king, not as a leader, not as a priest, but as a servant primarily known as a servant. And the other thing I want to say about that is if you go to how God describes his servant, right? Because he describes his servant in Isaiah 42, which obviously, again, is ultimately a prophecy about Jesus.

00;38;57;25 - 00;39;15;04
Joshua Hoffert
But this, this concept of the servant of God is found throughout the Old Testament. And here it is in Psalm 89, my servant David and the same kind of characteristics are said about the servant in Psalm 89, as they are in Isaiah 42. And I want you to read this, or I'm going to read this, and I want you to think about it.

00;39;15;04 - 00;39;41;21
Joshua Hoffert
And I'm not talking to Murray. I'm talking to people. Listening is I want you to think about it from the lens of the current paradigm of ministry, church and the culture and what this says about what a person called by God actually looks like. So. So Isaiah 42, behold, my servant whom whom upon my chosen one, in whom my soul delights, my, whom I uphold.

00;39;41;21 - 00;39;52;24
Joshua Hoffert
Sorry. Behold, my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one, in whom my soul delights. I have put my spirit upon him, and he will bring forth justice to the nations. Now here's how he's going to do it.

00;39;53;18 - 00;40;19;13
Joshua Hoffert
He will not cry out or raise his voice, nor make his voice heard in the streets a bruised reed. He will not break a dimly burning wick. He will not extinguish. He will faithfully bring forth justice. He will not be disheartened or crushed until he is established justice in the earth. So he won't raise his voice. He won't cry out, he won't demand to be heard.

00;40;19;16 - 00;40;40;29
Joshua Hoffert
And he'll be soft and tender. He'll never snuff out a bruised reed. He or a smoking wick. And he'll never. He'll never bend over a bruised reed. So a smoking where. So the the characteristic of the servant who is the one upon then upon whom the anointing rests. According to Psalm 89, he will be soft. He'll be tender.

00;40;41;01 - 00;41;05;23
Joshua Hoffert
You won't demand to be heard. He'll just carry out the things God has put on his heart, in humility and in tenderness and an affection for the people. And and those are the marks of what that looks like. And furthermore, in Psalm 89, and Mary, I want you to weigh in on this in just a second. In verse 24, it says, my faithfulness and my steadfast love shall be with him.

00;41;05;25 - 00;41;27;27
Joshua Hoffert
So two more characteristics of what a what a anointed servant of God looks like. My, his, my, the faithfulness of God will be evident in his life. Right? And that word for faithfulness. Actually it's funny. It's the Hebrew word. It's in the it's in the feminine. It's a feminine form of the of the male, a male, adjective.

00;41;27;27 - 00;41;57;12
Joshua Hoffert
I didn't I didn't realize that until I looked it up the other day. But that's an interesting one. Anyway, so my faithfulness, which means the in a the the, it's like, secure and firm is what it means. So this person will be there. They will be. They won't be moved by emotional outburst. You won't see them angry about things, right?

00;41;57;12 - 00;42;09;15
Joshua Hoffert
They'll be firm. They'll be secure because they know who they are in me. And they know that I'm with them, is they don't have to. It's like a Samuel who goes, whom have I defrauded? Whom have I taken advantage of? If there's anybody, bring your accusation against me.

00;42;09;16 - 00;42;12;05
Murray Dueck
Samuel is great that way. I, it's like.

00;42;12;05 - 00;42;30;18
Joshua Hoffert
It's like. But when you have a when you have a cavalcade of people who go, this is how you've done this, like, that's a problem. Yeah, right. Like the anointed person should not have those tendencies in their lives. That's what the scriptures lay out. And then the other part is the loving kindness of God will be with them.

00;42;30;21 - 00;42;53;05
Joshua Hoffert
So that means that that's the characteristic of not crying out aloud, not demanding to be heard. They will be soft and tender and affectionate because their heart is for the people. So today we have leaders that build their platforms on political strife and their and they demand to be heard and they demand for their voice to be listened to.

00;42;53;08 - 00;43;23;12
Joshua Hoffert
But the scriptures say that the the anointed leader is the exact opposite of that, and they get more done without being that way, because they simply go about touching the lives of the people that they're called to. So I'm going like, these things could not be more polar opposite than the present dynamic that we see. And it and the, the litmus test for who's voice and what kind of leaders should I be listening to are laid out very clearly right here.

00;43;23;14 - 00;43;40;05
Joshua Hoffert
They don't demand for their voice to be heard. Well, are you hearing people who are going, we need to fight for our rights. You know, in Canada or in America, the political strife we got to do this like, yeah, that's not the way that a person fights for their rights. They do it by touching the lives of the people.

00;43;40;08 - 00;43;48;15
Joshua Hoffert
Like, this is how Christianity became such a global phenomenon is it was largely class, grassroots. When the movement.

00;43;48;18 - 00;43;48;21
Murray Dueck
To.

00;43;48;23 - 00;43;51;09
Joshua Hoffert
Top down, it became problematic.

00;43;51;11 - 00;43;52;21
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;43;52;23 - 00;43;54;13
Joshua Hoffert
Sorry. I'm. I got on up. That was.

00;43;54;13 - 00;43;55;07
Murray Dueck
Up. Oh, no. No, it was a.

00;43;55;07 - 00;43;57;00
Joshua Hoffert
High, high horse that I just ride.

00;43;57;00 - 00;44;11;06
Murray Dueck
That horse. You know, I. Yeah. Well, there's so many things we could talk about here. Everybody that that that's very significant. You know, if you read in the spiritual meadow, which is like John Moscow's, I think.

00;44;11;06 - 00;44;12;02
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, yeah, it is. Yeah.

00;44;12;03 - 00;44;32;02
Murray Dueck
585 so before the Muslim invasion, he decides to take his, you know, his kind of servant or right hand up and come a guy and go visit all the, monasteries of his day? Yeah. You know, because it's spiritual meadow, like, you know, everything is flourishing. Yeah. And, and so he's recording all these stories, and quite, it's quite, quite something.

00;44;32;02 - 00;44;37;05
Murray Dueck
And if you want to peer into a different Christian world and again, pretty extreme, it some of it is, you know.

00;44;37;09 - 00;44;37;22
Joshua Hoffert
It really.

00;44;37;22 - 00;44;54;02
Murray Dueck
Is. You know, you got to again they have a there's a ditch on each side of the road, everybody. But there's a story in there. I, you know, I'll get it a little bit wrong again because it's, it's, but it's, it's impressed me and it's about this guy 8500, 400 somewhere in there. And they're, you know, they're telling John Moscow's his story.

00;44;54;04 - 00;45;13;02
Murray Dueck
This guy's father was really, really rich, was a merchant of his day. And I guess he's dying. And he says to his son, do you wish me to leave you an earthly inheritance or a spiritual in Christ inheritance? Which one do you what? And he says, I want a spiritual inheritance in Christ. Yeah. So he leaves them nothing.

00;45;13;04 - 00;45;37;09
Murray Dueck
No money, no nothing. So this guy now is in poverty. Think about that. Right? Leaves him nothing, but he is learned by serving Christ. God take care of his needs. Provides for him. He serves Christ in honor. I think he's a deacon in the church. Right. And this really rich family is looking for a husband for, their daughter.

00;45;37;12 - 00;45;47;29
Murray Dueck
Right. And and I think at some point, they're in the church, and the mother's crying, and he comes over as a deacon and say, woman, what's wrong? A little bit like like Eli and.

00;45;47;29 - 00;45;49;00
Joshua Hoffert
Hannah, right?

00;45;49;02 - 00;46;05;17
Murray Dueck
And he blesses her with the sign of the cross, and God does something and she goes, who is this guy? And then they tell the story, right? Oh, this is who he is, and this is what happened. And they go and they come up to him and said, today, your father's promise to you of the inheritance Christ has come to you, for you have found a wife.

00;46;05;19 - 00;46;06;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;46;06;00 - 00;46;28;17
Murray Dueck
So so here he sacrifices everything for the sake of Christ. And then God honors him and lifts him up. He could have taken the money. He could have taken the position. He could have taken the power. Right. And he does exactly the opposite of of what we would do. And the worst thing, not everybody. I mean, there are lots of of you out there, hopefully that are, you know, like, you know, takes a low seat at the table and God will lift you up, right?

00;46;28;17 - 00;46;34;19
Murray Dueck
Isn't that what you what Jesus said? And so how do you know? Let's go back to applying that that. Well, I.

00;46;34;19 - 00;46;35;17
Joshua Hoffert
Want.

00;46;35;20 - 00;46;51;08
Murray Dueck
I just want to share one more thing. Yeah, yeah. If you don't mind. And then, you know, let's apply that in a way that's applicable to leadership today, because not all of us are going to give away everything and go, I'm going to possibly put my family into poverty. Right. It's it's an extreme position. There's a ditch there.

00;46;51;08 - 00;47;01;03
Murray Dueck
Let's just admit that. But one thing. Excuse me. The saying that I've.

00;47;01;05 - 00;47;14;15
Murray Dueck
Never trust a leader without a limp and I. And that's an important thing. So like a leader to be a leader. I'm still carving. I should turn it over to you for a second until I clear my throat.

00;47;14;17 - 00;47;20;16
Joshua Hoffert
You okay? Well, I just I want I'll just add that a little asterix to the.

00;47;20;18 - 00;47;22;11
Murray Dueck
Please do maybe shut up for a second.

00;47;22;11 - 00;47;38;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. The thing that you said about taking the lower seat, and then God will raise you up, right. I and I want to reframe that because what? Because what most people in our charismatic context here is humble yourself enough until you don't need to anymore.

00;47;38;06 - 00;47;39;14
Murray Dueck
Yeah, right. That's how we.

00;47;39;17 - 00;47;58;25
Joshua Hoffert
God's going to give you a big, huge international ministry. So you just need to be humble for a little while and then God will make you big. Your name will be great. The point of being raised up is that you take a seat closer to the master of the table and like you're, you're invited closer into his counsel, into his intimacy, into his heart.

00;47;58;28 - 00;48;06;24
Joshua Hoffert
The whole point is proximity to the father, not, elevation of ministry potential. Yeah. That's all I want to say is.

00;48;06;24 - 00;48;08;04
Murray Dueck
No, that's that's exactly.

00;48;08;04 - 00;48;10;03
Joshua Hoffert
That's what I'm so good at.

00;48;10;03 - 00;48;27;16
Murray Dueck
And so, again, how do you know somebody has done that? If you have never trust a leader without a limp. So if you have a leader who does move, you know, we want leaders who are anointed. We want leaders who have. Yeah, that, you know, but you don't follow them based on their gift. You follow them based on their character.

00;48;27;18 - 00;48;48;23
Murray Dueck
Yes. And how do you know if a leader is willing to share his faults, his screw ups, the need to repent. And he tells you the story of when he's struggling and why he's struggling. Because if your leader doesn't do that, your people in your church won't do that. If you have a leader who's only telling his glory stories, guess what's happening in your home groups, in your church?

00;48;48;25 - 00;49;16;16
Murray Dueck
Nobody's being honest about what's really going on in their lives. Who is your leaders? Not because. Because what your leader models is more important than what he says. So if you're a leader to be a leader, you must be willing, because that's what Scripture does, doesn't it? Look how honest Scripture is about Abraham's Falls or David, or or Paul rebuking Peter, who is face Scripture is very honest about about, human frailty because you need to take that again.

00;49;16;16 - 00;49;31;22
Murray Dueck
Here's a problem in Western culture, God is judge. And therefore if I screw up, I'm going to be judge instead of no man is broken and sick and needs healing. And if you're willing to be honest about where you need healing, so will the people who are following you.

00;49;31;25 - 00;49;32;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;49;32;21 - 00;49;35;13
Murray Dueck
And and look at the life of David if we want to look at him.

00;49;35;14 - 00;49;38;18
Joshua Hoffert
Well, that's exactly what happens in Psalm 89. You were saying that, you know.

00;49;38;19 - 00;49;59;09
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah. According and one of the ways that if you go, go read Psalm 89, everyone will come back to this to, you know, and some of you are going to absolutely hate me for this. And it's okay. But read Psalm 89 because it starts with, it starts with, you've picked a man from among the people, and you've anointed him, and you put a crown upon his head.

00;49;59;09 - 00;50;07;05
Murray Dueck
Right? But it goes on to say where David goes. But you cast his crown into the dust, and you take this road like he's really honest.

00;50;07;07 - 00;50;09;18
Joshua Hoffert
Everyone plundered him and. Yeah.

00;50;09;22 - 00;50;28;28
Murray Dueck
And you have caused God have caused this to happen. And you know what? All again, I probably told this story before, but I'll just cut to the chase because it's it's, you know, one of the things the Lord said to me very clearly when I was building my own ministry and work equals love and all that is. Everything was breaking and everything was but.

00;50;28;29 - 00;50;45;02
Murray Dueck
And I tried to fix it, I tried to fix it. And finally I get angry and. And the Lord finally said to me one day, so are you going to am I going to have to keep poking your buttons to get an emotional reaction, right? Or are you just going to keep stuffing in a little ball and ignore it and pretend you can perform your way through this?

00;50;45;02 - 00;51;06;01
Murray Dueck
Sure to win my affection and Lord, like I'd rather heal your soul and you show you what comes up inside rather than than you shoving it down thinking you're serving me. But when people ask you how you do it, praise God, brother, I'm doing great, right? Like Hallelujah. How are things going? Things are great, right? Well, the Lord actually wants honesty in the inner man, and that's the mark of a good leader.

00;51;06;01 - 00;51;27;20
Murray Dueck
And read Psalm 89, because David is being honest about what's going in the inner man. And that's a psalm in the Holy Scripture. Look what he says, right? And that has to become a lifestyle of honesty about what's going on as we transform into the image of Christ, because we all have to admit we are broken and screwed up, and God doesn't love us for our successes.

00;51;27;22 - 00;51;31;22
Murray Dueck
He loves us for our pursuit of him and becoming like him on the journey.

00;51;31;25 - 00;51;32;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;51;32;16 - 00;51;45;16
Murray Dueck
And those are different ways of doing life and you know, and David, you know, if you read a very famous classic little book, which Matt, another story book called The Tale of Three Kings, who I can't remember who.

00;51;45;21 - 00;51;47;12
Joshua Hoffert
Wrote Edward Jean Edwards. Yeah.

00;51;47;15 - 00;52;01;29
Murray Dueck
And so who do you want to be? Do you want to be Saul? Trying to keep the kingdom? Do you want to be absent? Trying to steal the kingdom? Or do you want to be David who went when they, you know, they come and take it from me. Just let it go and goes. You know what? It's okay if it's God in the back.

00;52;01;29 - 00;52;04;02
Murray Dueck
If not right, that's. It's okay.

00;52;04;02 - 00;52;08;11
Joshua Hoffert
I want to cry out in the streets. You didn't demand to be heard. He left. Right? Yeah.

00;52;08;13 - 00;52;09;00
Murray Dueck
He left in.

00;52;09;00 - 00;52;11;09
Joshua Hoffert
Characteristic right there. Yeah.

00;52;11;12 - 00;52;30;17
Murray Dueck
So it's a it's a good example. So but but and there are, there are leaders like that. But they're not the ones with the big platforms with who are screaming for attention. Right, right. And, and and to realize the shaping of humility again, you know.

00;52;30;17 - 00;52;31;13
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;52;31;16 - 00;52;45;24
Murray Dueck
I remember Rick Joyner had this book. Oh, what was it? It came out long. It probably in the late 90s already. Something about armor and battle and all this stuff. But it was a parable, you know, and it was about the army of God riding into victory and.

00;52;45;24 - 00;52;47;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;52;47;10 - 00;52;48;20
Murray Dueck
Final battle, final quest.

00;52;48;20 - 00;52;52;12
Joshua Hoffert
Final quest? Yeah. Their final quest, I think. Yeah. Like, there's like three of them or something.

00;52;52;12 - 00;52;52;25
Murray Dueck
Oh, really?

00;52;52;25 - 00;52;54;21
Joshua Hoffert
First one was the final quest. There was a few.

00;52;54;21 - 00;53;19;27
Murray Dueck
Sequels, and there there is this scene that that he's writing about with the arm Army of God. It's got their armor and it's shining with the glory. And then he hands them these like, like, potato sack coverings. And as a lot of people don't want to put them on because the glory of the armor is so shiny and it's so glorious, but, and but just over the hill, the enemy's coming.

00;53;20;00 - 00;53;35;16
Murray Dueck
And because they're so enamored with the light shining off their own armor, the only the ones who put on the potato sack that covered it up could see the enemy coming, because the other ones are so caught up with the giant of their own armor, they can't see that the enemy's taking advantage of their progress.

00;53;35;16 - 00;53;36;17
Joshua Hoffert
Right, right.

00;53;36;20 - 00;53;54;22
Murray Dueck
And, and and, and that's another thing I like about the Eastern Church. Like, they'll they'll say that you'll, you know, you'll have a bishop kneeling in the mud in front of front of some old woman. Right. You know, why is he doing that? He knows he's an administrator. Well, she's the seer, right? Right. There's not like this position makes me holy.

00;53;54;22 - 00;54;06;24
Murray Dueck
Or this doctorate degree makes me holy, or this anointing makes me all right. No humility and becoming Christlike. Yeah, and that's not true for their whole culture. They've got a lot of losers like everyone else, right? Totally.

00;54;06;26 - 00;54;08;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, but we're just we're holding.

00;54;08;20 - 00;54;10;14
Murray Dueck
That's also still in their culture.

00;54;10;20 - 00;54;15;10
Joshua Hoffert
We're holding images up and going, this is what it might look like, right?

00;54;15;13 - 00;54;31;11
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Yeah. So I you know, honestly I remember again, the Ken Blue sea was at sea. You may when you're at a and he shares his story where he's just going through hell, you know. And I can't remember the last thing that happens. I'll never forget it. I'll have to and just find he loses and it just tears God a new.

00;54;31;11 - 00;54;48;03
Murray Dueck
But he just get so angry. And then there's a pause. And God says to him, are we still friends? Just, Or or was it Teresa Avila on a horse riding through a river and she gets thrown off and lands in the river. It breaks her leg or something like that.

00;54;48;09 - 00;54;49;27
Joshua Hoffert
Sure. It's goes, God help it.

00;54;49;27 - 00;55;09;01
Murray Dueck
God goes. I treat all my friends this way. She goes, well, no wonder you have so few friends. Yeah. And and again, Mark of leadership one. Are you willing to be honest with God? What's really going on inside, or do you think holiness is bottling it, bottling it up and pretending? Yeah, right. Read Peter's Gazzara emotional healthy spirituality.

00;55;09;08 - 00;55;32;02
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Number two. Are you are we willing to take seasons of the desert and character and pruning from God where we're diminishing to look at our hearts like David did? He was he got anointed by Saul. And people are singing, Saul is killed his thousands and David is 10,000. Right, right, right. Chased around a caves for three and a half years.

00;55;32;02 - 00;55;57;27
Murray Dueck
Right? Right. And and then and then he's willing to let go of the kingdom later on. Again, like our is our identity so wrapped up in our ministry that if God pokes that, do we respond to what comes out of the heart here? Humility? Or do we go, no, this is my kingdom. Yeah. What's what happens here? And David again is such a good more I mean, David's a flawed person, you know.

00;55;57;27 - 00;55;58;17
Joshua Hoffert
Right. You know.

00;55;58;17 - 00;56;17;05
Murray Dueck
We all know some of the things he does. But but Psalm 89 is you got to take it into context of his life and these events and what he's doing. And in the midst of it being so honest with God, with how he feels about it. All right, you've taken away my kingdom, right? Right. But what does he do?

00;56;17;12 - 00;56;36;22
Murray Dueck
He walks away of his own free will. But is he still willing to have the conversation with God as his father? Yeah, you know that that's an important thing, you know? And, so, you know, there's a security in leaders, good leaders. One, they're not afraid of their failures. They're not afraid of their faults.

00;56;36;24 - 00;56;37;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;56;37;16 - 00;57;00;23
Murray Dueck
And their lack of fear allows other people not to be afraid of theirs. Right, right. That that's a good characteristic of leadership, too. They're not enamored with your successes, right? Right. They they can make fun of that. They can play it down, because it's their relationship to God that matters to them, not how that manifests. And again, we see that with David.

00;57;00;23 - 00;57;14;06
Murray Dueck
Two and I think both of those things are you know, there's lots more like the things, other things that you brought up too. But those are things in our culture that get that, that get missed and passed over. Right. You know, that I see continually. Yeah.

00;57;14;08 - 00;57;37;15
Joshua Hoffert
And and when, when Marissa, I just want to clarify too. And Murray says they're not afraid of their faults. And talking about those things there's like like like so one we can point let's, let's just look at the mechanical situation for what is a good example is Mike talked about his faults when he was forced to. Yes.

00;57;37;17 - 00;57;50;29
Joshua Hoffert
Right. So you can say you could make the case. Well look he he repented. He told people about it. Yeah. Once people came forward and said these were his faults, then he did. And then when more information came out, he finally he admitted to more, right?

00;57;51;01 - 00;58;14;00
Murray Dueck
And he said, okay, clarify that a bit too. Like what I say, admit your faults. It's one talking about a two, but also inviting people in, like like you, you look at, you just passed away a little bit ago. Jerry Falwell no, no, no. Sorry. What was that Pentecostal dude's name? Jimmy Swaggart. Jimmy Swaggart. Because, remember, he he got caught with prostitutes?

00;58;14;00 - 00;58;14;07
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;58;14;07 - 00;58;15;10
Joshua Hoffert
I'm like, what? Like.

00;58;15;12 - 00;58;16;09
Murray Dueck
And they.

00;58;16;11 - 00;58;19;11
Joshua Hoffert
Like methane. With what? Meth and prostitutes and stuff.

00;58;19;11 - 00;58;41;07
Murray Dueck
Right? Yeah. In the car with it. Porn bags under his seat. And. Yeah, they asked him why didn't you get help? And his comment was who could help Jimmy Swaggart, right. Meaning I'm on the top. Who could I go to? Yeah, because I'm. And when our own reputation does not let us go to other people of a lower reputation.

00;58;41;09 - 00;58;59;27
Murray Dueck
Right. And, because we need people speaking into our lives as we walk with a daily. So if you know we have a fault, confess your sins to one another. Again, we think, oh, that's judicial. If I have a sin, I confess that I'll be healed. It's bigger than that. It's not just talking about a one time fault floor.

00;59;00;05 - 00;59;28;06
Murray Dueck
One time. Oh, I screwed up. It's talking about pride. It's talking about driving this. It's talking about the areas of the passions where we fall into continually, where we need other people. Right. And to live a lifestyle of, of mutual dependance. And, and I think personally where. Where we see a bit of a problem, a big problem with the charismatic church is that so you, you have an apostolic team, which, you know, you evangelicals are Wynnewood.

00;59;28;06 - 00;59;39;20
Murray Dueck
I'm talking about that. But but, you know, one of the big the big means, almost in a way in the charismatic church is we love to say the church is not built on pastors and teachers. It's built on prophets and apostles.

00;59;39;24 - 00;59;40;21
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Right. Yeah.

00;59;40;21 - 01;00;01;12
Murray Dueck
So, so when we say that there's some truth there, right? There should be more spiritual gifts going on here than just teaching and preaching gifts. There should be a training of the people out of here. Okay. That's what we do. Okay. But how that often gets bantered around is, well, you know, there's a rank among the gifts. Apostle is first and then prophet.

01;00;01;12 - 01;00;25;12
Murray Dueck
And the past pastors are way down here, prophets are here and apostles are here. So what people do then is they make the visionary leader, the apostle. And so the problem is, if you do that, let's say you have a pastoral issue in your church that needs a pastoral issue. Well, what happens often in an apostolic church is an apostle steps in to deal with it because he's a visionary leader.

01;00;25;15 - 01;00;39;08
Murray Dueck
He's got no training. How to deal with that. He's got no counseling skills, he's got no pastoral skills. He's the wrong guy to do that job. He's got to shut up and sit in the back, keep his mouth shut and let the pastoral guy deal with it.

01;00;39;10 - 01;01;02;04
Joshua Hoffert
He's not really an apostle. That's the problem. Yes. He's not that what we think like, think. I got Paul in first Thessalonians two talks about how amazing the people are and how much he loves them, and how much affection he has for them. He's so apostolic, he's so pastoral in his care for the people. It's like we're totally forget.

01;01;02;06 - 01;01;14;24
Joshua Hoffert
Paul was a visionary leader. Paul was so deeply concerned about what the people were dealing with and struggling with, that he went out of his way to kick one of the guys out, right?

01;01;14;24 - 01;01;17;27
Murray Dueck
Like, so that's another thing we need to talk. He's so pastoral.

01;01;17;27 - 01;01;18;07
Joshua Hoffert
I don't.

01;01;18;07 - 01;01;22;21
Murray Dueck
Understand. Durrell does not mean no giving discipline.

01;01;22;23 - 01;01;23;24
Joshua Hoffert
Apostolic.

01;01;23;24 - 01;01;27;05
Murray Dueck
Another problem that we face in the Apostle. Okay.

01;01;27;07 - 01;01;34;06
Joshua Hoffert
And like an apostolic person doesn't mean they're not pastoral. Like that's one of the.

01;01;34;06 - 01;01;37;17
Murray Dueck
That's, Yeah, absolutely. I mean, drives me freaking crazy, but.

01;01;37;24 - 01;01;57;20
Joshua Hoffert
The foundations of the apostles and prophets, that verse that's talking about the scriptures, it's not talking about the gift and the function within the church, the, the, the revelation of Jesus Christ started with the prophets and found its culmination in the apostles. So it's built on that. That's what that verse means. That's how the early church interpreted that through and through and through.

01;01;57;21 - 01;01;59;09
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

01;01;59;12 - 01;02;00;04
Joshua Hoffert
And and.

01;02;00;04 - 01;02;01;08
Murray Dueck
So I've been amazed over.

01;02;01;08 - 01;02;03;00
Joshua Hoffert
In the culture people say that. Right.

01;02;03;00 - 01;02;04;14
Murray Dueck
Like you're saying all the time.

01;02;04;17 - 01;02;06;27
Joshua Hoffert
Well was like, shut up.

01;02;07;02 - 01;02;19;05
Murray Dueck
Oh I know that. That's think crazy. Well one thing I hear it quite a bit and I it, it's I find it embarrassing for the whole charismatic. I'm sorry you were crapping on the charismatic. Apparently it.

01;02;19;05 - 01;02;19;27
Joshua Hoffert
Is embarrassing.

01;02;19;27 - 01;02;37;08
Murray Dueck
But they say to me, I hear this a lot. And or people say, you know what? I've never met a pastoral, prophetic person before in ministry. It's just. And I'm like, and I just bite my tongue and I make a joke. Well, that's the Mennonite side of me. Which is true. I think I've learned a good pastoral skills from my Mennonite culture.

01;02;37;08 - 01;02;52;27
Murray Dueck
I value that right. There are people, servanthood, but for people. And I've heard that 50 times that, that that people think it's weird that a prophetic person who has a prophetic ministry is actually pastoral. I'm like, that should not be surprising.

01;02;52;27 - 01;03;03;03
Joshua Hoffert
So it's so it misses the whole the bigger conversation. Like, okay, culturally, what are we looking at when it comes to leaders like like this.

01;03;03;03 - 01;03;12;28
Murray Dueck
Is and again, where do we see gifting vision building. And we go, well that's obviously that means holiness. Yes. Not at all.

01;03;13;00 - 01;03;17;16
Joshua Hoffert
And you and you pull up, you hold up a picture of what someone in Scripture. Look. Sorry.

01;03;17;19 - 01;03;18;11
Murray Dueck
Sir.

01;03;18;13 - 01;03;47;25
Joshua Hoffert
All of the picture of what someone in scripture looks like. And you go, Paul was deeply and like, try and read first Thessalonians two without being moved by his affection for the people in Thessalonica. Yeah, it's it is beautiful what he has to say about them. And you're and you're like, he's he. This is so different than what we let pass is the typical leader today that it's like, this just doesn't make any sense, guys, that this is what we've accepted within the culture.

01;03;48;01 - 01;04;04;10
Joshua Hoffert
And now we're making a case that this guy who sends this picture about, like, you know, or or even the like it just within what was it a couple weeks ago that some I think it was Mike Nichols sister came out and put out a podcast episode. The city should be restored. It was. And it causes fervor again.

01;04;04;10 - 01;04;09;06
Joshua Hoffert
It's like that. What are we what are we saying here? It's not.

01;04;09;10 - 01;04;10;03
Murray Dueck
But we get caught up.

01;04;10;03 - 01;04;19;18
Joshua Hoffert
In individual cases. We? You care about the person he's impacted your life. Like like just this is that's beside the point. The bigger issue, I think.

01;04;19;23 - 01;04;43;19
Murray Dueck
I just want to throw this out there. Do I think Mike Bickle can be restored? Yes. Here are my condition. He has a sickness. He is sick. His soul is sick. One he's got to submit to people for counseling. Two he's got to walk that through through a series of years. Three he's got to see that he's got a problem and be willing to get healing for.

01;04;43;20 - 01;05;06;23
Murray Dueck
This is going to be a 3 to 5 year process of accountability. Is it possible? Yeah. But for someone to go up okay. Now it's done. It's been in the news for a year now. He can be no restoration is in the time period. It's a walking through of letting your soul come into the light and God repairing you as he restores you.

01;05;06;26 - 01;05;08;21
Murray Dueck
Like that's not the same thing.

01;05;08;28 - 01;05;14;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And 5.5 is no, he can't be restored.

01;05;14;21 - 01;05;17;10
Murray Dueck
Oh yeah. Well, because he won't do any of that.

01;05;17;13 - 01;05;17;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah.

01;05;17;29 - 01;05;21;23
Murray Dueck
So can I, I want to share. Okay. I'm going to share a story.

01;05;21;25 - 01;05;23;14
Joshua Hoffert
Maurice Murray's more tender than I.

01;05;23;15 - 01;05;27;01
Murray Dueck
Oh, boy. I okay.

01;05;27;03 - 01;05;32;18
Joshua Hoffert
Should I say condensed to. Got it. We've got to wrap it up so. Or maybe we'll save it for next week.

01;05;32;21 - 01;05;43;10
Murray Dueck
Maybe I shouldn't share it at all. I just because because again guys charismatic. You're not all this stupid like like we're making you know we are charismatic right.

01;05;43;10 - 01;05;43;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right.

01;05;43;25 - 01;05;50;24
Murray Dueck
So yeah. So we're painting a bit of a caricature here, and I'm okay. But you're looking at a theology that permits this.

01;05;50;26 - 01;05;53;03
Joshua Hoffert
Permeates the culture. Yeah, yeah.

01;05;53;05 - 01;05;55;06
Murray Dueck
And people can see it in it.

01;05;55;09 - 01;05;58;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. It's it's the, it's the.

01;05;58;09 - 01;06;03;18
Murray Dueck
And you gotta wonder how much of this is mental illness like basically so beyond the pale here, you know.

01;06;03;18 - 01;06;24;29
Joshua Hoffert
The, the, the the solution is really the, the old, what's it called? The old skit. How what was the guy's name? You know, I've. Hey, I'm I'm afraid of, I'm afraid in my life of being buried in a box, and the guy can well stop it, you know that?

01;06;25;01 - 01;06;26;06
Murray Dueck
Oh, yeah. Bob Newhart.

01;06;26;07 - 01;06;27;07
Joshua Hoffert
Bob. That's great.

01;06;27;07 - 01;06;31;19
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Was that his name, or was that that his name on the show, the Bob Newhart, was that actually, I don't.

01;06;31;19 - 01;06;33;25
Joshua Hoffert
Know, actually, but but that's the solution.

01;06;33;25 - 01;06;34;08
Murray Dueck
It just.

01;06;34;08 - 01;06;34;20
Joshua Hoffert
Stop you.

01;06;34;22 - 01;06;38;26
Murray Dueck
Bob. You up started just lady comes in just. Yeah. I got a few words for you.

01;06;38;28 - 01;06;45;09
Joshua Hoffert
Murray, and I'll say stop it. Or will bury you in a box. Okay? Yeah. All right. Anyway.

01;06;45;09 - 01;06;48;00
Murray Dueck
Oh, I got a I guess I'll see you next week.

01;06;48;00 - 01;06;49;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, we've got a lot more to say, but.

01;06;49;22 - 01;06;55;03
Murray Dueck
Okay. Now, here's a question that's hanging on the tip of my tongue. I'm just going to leave it and I'm going to throw it out. Yeah.

01;06;55;03 - 01;06;58;04
Joshua Hoffert
Throw it out there and we'll leave it at it. Hang.

01;06;58;07 - 01;07;09;05
Murray Dueck
So again, if you look at this culture of of the when we'll say charismatic culture today everybody I would watch the Mars Hill documentary by Christianity.

01;07;09;08 - 01;07;10;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah that's a good one. Yeah.

01;07;10;10 - 01;07;21;29
Murray Dueck
That if you're like, well let's let's break this down. They did a really good job there. Yeah. Which, which is basically, you know, Mars Hill small charismatic I don't know. Are they just evangelical anyway. But yeah, it's it's a cultural issue.

01;07;22;00 - 01;07;24;27
Joshua Hoffert
Marcellus small charismatic for sure.

01;07;24;29 - 01;07;28;26
Murray Dueck
Part of the problem is also, on the one hand.

01;07;29;02 - 01;07;33;18
Joshua Hoffert
Cautiously continuation, as they would have been.

01;07;33;21 - 01;07;49;06
Murray Dueck
I so I mean, so I just want to throw this out. Is that the, the body of Christ? And even leaders like myself have mixed up.

01;07;49;08 - 01;08;11;08
Murray Dueck
Love with permission. Yeah. And and and and it's a big it's take me a long time to work this through because sometimes it's like, oh, it'll be okay. They're going to grow out of it. You know, if I, if I discipline this person, they're going to feel not loved. And if you don't love then I'm modeling Christ. So therefore I'm models to them.

01;08;11;08 - 01;08;20;10
Murray Dueck
God doesn't love them. So then I can't like. So we let a lot of things just go because we think love is always being nice.

01;08;20;13 - 01;08;20;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;08;21;01 - 01;08;36;17
Murray Dueck
But you know, father Mike would say to me, you know, if you go to a doctor's office and you fainted at the office, he's going to slap you in the face. Why? Because he hates, you know, he's trying to save your life, right? And and when we look at Jesus, how he is working with people, did did he not love the rich?

01;08;36;17 - 01;08;50;07
Murray Dueck
Got rich young ruler when he let him go, or the Pharisees when he's saying, or Peter when he says, get behind me, say like, yeah, like that. That we let a lot of things go because sometimes we're afraid to confront because we believe confrontation isn't being loving.

01;08;50;11 - 01;08;51;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;08;51;05 - 01;09;14;22
Murray Dueck
Right. So and and that's, that's the other problem here is that an evangelical, charismatic world. Well, when I can't confront him because he's the apostle, therefore everything he does is right. That's a big problem to I can't confront because that's not love. That's also a big problem. And and a lot of these personalities get away with a lot of stuff because nobody is willing to say anything.

01;09;14;23 - 01;09;20;04
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that's true. And and, you know, that's a topic for another day. But that that's, you know.

01;09;20;07 - 01;09;23;21
Joshua Hoffert
Well, we'll continue it on in next week when we have.

01;09;23;24 - 01;09;32;22
Murray Dueck
Got a lot of stuff. I mean, it'll be great. You guys will love it. We've had him on before. Eric Jansen wrote a great book called ponder which, which actually has a lot to do with that.

01;09;32;22 - 01;09;35;02
Joshua Hoffert
I think we covered that on the podcast.

01;09;35;04 - 01;09;51;03
Murray Dueck
So we're gonna look at another chapter of his book, wrote a great book on burden bearing everybody to a little book called right, Handbook of on burden bearing so you can find those things on Amazon. So, all right, I believe he will be with us next week by faith, because I haven't asked him.

01;09;51;03 - 01;09;52;21
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, yeah. That's right. Yeah, yeah.

01;09;52;23 - 01;09;54;26
Murray Dueck
He's at my house. He's at my house next Tuesday. So.

01;09;54;26 - 01;09;55;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;09;55;01 - 01;09;57;22
Murray Dueck
So that's right.

01;09;57;25 - 01;09;58;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;09;58;16 - 01;10;07;14
Murray Dueck
And see, because he's a Mennonite guy like me, he will confront me because we're nice at all costs. And he will do exactly as I just said. He should do.

01;10;07;16 - 01;10;08;06
Joshua Hoffert
This. Right.

01;10;08;13 - 01;10;12;23
Murray Dueck
So there you go. We will demonstrate spiritual abuse to everybody by dragging Earth.

01;10;12;23 - 01;10;13;10
Joshua Hoffert
So good at.

01;10;13;10 - 01;10;16;07
Murray Dueck
It against his will. Very good. There you go.

01;10;16;10 - 01;10;20;19
Joshua Hoffert
Well, everybody, thanks so much for tuning into marine. I got a bit worked up in this one.

01;10;20;22 - 01;10;23;07
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I maybe need some healing here on on.

01;10;23;10 - 01;10;30;28
Joshua Hoffert
Well, we probably always do. Yeah. Yeah. But it is a it's a topic that we've watched play out and it's.

01;10;30;28 - 01;10;44;15
Murray Dueck
Yeah I do want the church to grow up. Right. Yeah. That we all need to. Yeah. Everybody go watch our episode on on on a bonus again if you're like, okay, I gotta go back there. Yeah. And or even our own journey.

01;10;44;16 - 01;10;51;07
Joshua Hoffert
Go back to episode one, and you just you'll just keep listening from episode one on and go, oh, yeah. This is the journey they've been on.

01;10;51;10 - 01;10;58;06
Murray Dueck
Yeah, this is this is how they ended up in this car wreck. Yeah. There you go. Oh, there you go. So everybody the wisdom hopefully there's some wisdom.

01;10;58;06 - 01;11;07;24
Joshua Hoffert
Learning and wisdom. Yeah. So thanks everybody for tuning in. We're so we're so happy you've been able to join us for this long. We. Yeah. Go on. We're almost at 100 episodes, I think.

01;11;08;01 - 01;11;08;17
Murray Dueck
Really?

01;11;08;17 - 01;11;12;19
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, my God, we're getting close to it. So. Wow. It's been chock full journey. Yes.

01;11;12;19 - 01;11;14;25
Murray Dueck
It is the power of caffeine and strength.

01;11;14;25 - 01;11;18;17
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Mary, it's awesome to spend time with you. As always.

01;11;18;19 - 01;11;19;17
Murray Dueck
Thank you. My friend.

01;11;19;20 - 01;11;41;12
Joshua Hoffert
My friend. Everybody, until next week, five.

Joshua Hoffert

Co-host

Murray Dueck

Co-host