Prophecy doesn't predict the future, a conversation with Eric Janzen

How did the ancients perceive prophecy? Is it just about foretelling the future? What does it actually mean to hear the voice of God? Join Josh and Murr as they dive into all things prophecy with Eric Janzen, author of the book "Ponder: Valuing and Evaluating the Gift of Prophecy".

For more about Voices from the Desert, visit our Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/VoicesfromtheDesert

For more about Eric Janzen's book, visit: https://www.amazon.ca/Ponder-Valuing-Evaluating-Gift-Prophecy/dp/B0BXN41ZZF

Transcript

Joshua Hoffert (00:00.524)
It's recording now so you can do you can do whatever whenever

Murray (00:04.888)
Alright, welcome to Voices from the Desert!

Joshua Hoffert (00:11.212)
For those of you watching the video, Murray just accosted our, our guests today a little bit. So that's, well, apologize profusely after the recording. Yeah, I'm out. Murray, I've told you, don't yell at people, you know, rule one one. Yeah. Rule one one of leadership is don't yell at people. Rule number two.

Murray (00:26.678)
I do deserve that after I just yelled right into your desert everybody if you're wondering what you mean to cost it

Murray (00:36.333)
yellow people.

Where in the church are from?

Joshua Hoffert (00:40.416)
Rule number two is don't pull your pants down for people. So that's like, it's really simple stuff. Okay. Yeah. That might be good. Yeah. Simple rules to live by for leaders. Right. Yes. Yeah. If you think about it, right. Like Paul's it Paul's, Paul's statements to Timothy, right? Like maybe if you want to be a good

Murray (00:45.368)
Well, see, now you can't delete next last week's episode because no one's going to know what you're talking about.

Murray (00:55.756)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (01:07.488)
You want to, you want to have, find good leaders. They should be a husband to one wife only. Right. Like pretty simple stuff. Right. They probably should be a pretty good dad. Like he's not, it's not rocket science. Right. So yeah, there's it's simple instruction. Apparently to some people it is. Yeah. And there's some Murray's didn't hear yelling at people. So this is voices from the desert. I didn't, I didn't go, you know, we've got to get our coyote howl in there. Yeah.

Murray (01:14.776)
Yeah, I think so.

Murray (01:23.702)
Apparently to some people it is, unfortunately.

Murray (01:29.921)
Yeah

Murray (01:33.496)
Yep. Got to do the how. It's like stepped on a hot, hot, hot coal. Ow, ow. Poor Coyote.

Joshua Hoffert (01:37.005)
That's right. That's right. Yeah. So that's right. Well, you know, for some of us, for some of us on the podcast, the school season is in full swing now, right? For some they've eclipsed that portion of life and doesn't matter to them. So our prayers are with, I loved, my Anglican priest friend we've had Colin, we've had him on here before. he would, he would

Murray (01:50.062)
That's right, kids.

Joshua Hoffert (02:06.314)
couple of times during the beginning of school, he'd stand out on the corner because his house was right across from one of the elementary schools and you know, seek a blessing over the first day of school in his, in his priestly garments. And, that was a fun thing. So anyway, welcome everybody. And, we're voices from the desert. We like to talk about stuff. And, one of our favorite, we were just telling our friend here, who I'll introduce in just a second, one of our favorite reviews that have ever been

Murray (02:15.64)
Ha!

Joshua Hoffert (02:36.268)
written about the podcast and was from a reformed cessationist who asked us not to tell his pastor that he listens. And he told us, he told us we talked with. Yeah, that really was. He said that we were too friendly and we chat a bit too much in our banter back and forth and that he had to be critical because he was reformed. So that's what I thought was funny. yeah, that's a, that's part of the podcast is the banter of.

Murray (02:43.534)
I know. I hope you're still listening, buddy, because that was a great review. Thank you.

Murray (02:57.23)
It was very well said.

Joshua Hoffert (03:05.194)
and I because we enjoy our time together. But we like talking about the journey of the journey of following Jesus and the depths of what that means and how confounded and mysterious it can be. And so we're voices from the desert, you know, the voice cries out in the desert and we want to listen to the voice that cries out. So prepare the way of the Lord. So we like having guests that have been on the desert journey and have something to say about it.

Murray (03:31.202)
Hmm.

Joshua Hoffert (03:34.06)
And that's why Eric is here. So we've, we've had Eric on before. This is our, a good friend, Eric Janssen. actually lives almost down the road from me. Now, the last time we interviewed Eric, I lived across the country from him, but now I live down the road from him and Eric and Eric and Murray have known each other for a long time. And the first time I think the first time I met you, Eric was at a Samuel's mantle conference.

Murray (03:35.352)
That's why you're here.

Murray (03:57.058)
I think.

Joshua Hoffert (04:03.308)
Um, and that one that Steve and Murray and I spoke at, and I think you were, were you on the worship team or something like that? Uh, anyway, that was, that was 10 years ago. Um, so almost 10 years, I think it was 2016. So we've known each other for a while, but you've known Murray for even longer. And you wrote a book a couple of years ago, we interviewed you about, and we thought, uh,

Murray (04:13.813)
Yeah, sounds like that.

Joshua Hoffert (04:31.732)
Murray, you and Murray are hanging out. So Murray mentioned it last week. Hey, we could have Eric on. And so we're going to talk about some, some stuff today. So, Murr, Murr, let's say, let's start off this way. Murr, what does Eric mean to you?

Murray (04:47.3)
well, that's a good question considering our topic today. So everyone, I'll give you a little bit more info. He's written this great book called Ponder and on discerning the voice of the Lord. You want to give us a little bit of background on that book quick? Quick. Because you're going to be doing the whole thing. It's going to nicely fit back to that, I think. It's called Ponder, valuing and evaluating the gift of prophecy. And it is...

Boy, it's a collection of my own prophetic journey and learning to understand the voice of Jesus and making sense of prophecy in a world where prophecy gets out of hand and doesn't function well. And I really wrote it because a lot of people who are abandoning the gifts of the spirit as they try and figure out how they feel about church and God, that really

broke my heart and I was like, listen, just because it hasn't gone well and your experience is bad doesn't actually mean the gift itself needs to be thrown out. And here's how it can actually be safe, healthy and loving. Honestly, the gist of my book can be summed up very quickly. is that John tells us that Jesus, the spirit of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. And therefore if prophecy

is the spirit of Jesus. should sound like Jesus. It should feel like Jesus. It should communicate like Jesus. And that's why I that all out in my book and really go after that.

Joshua Hoffert (06:24.459)
I love that's, you know, you're quoting Revelation 1910, right? The, the testimony of Jesus is a spirit of prophecy. And one of the things that I, I remember what struck me in reading the Old Testament is how, how so much of the, the, book of the prophets, right? You, it's, can find references to the Messiah in whether it's in vague and mysterious ways or direct, like, you know, Isaiah 42 to 45 or something, right?

Murray (06:30.147)
That's it.

Joshua Hoffert (06:54.063)
you can find, or even at the end of Ezekiel, right? The, temple and the king and the, and the king, the king of the son of the king in the middle of the temple, you can find like direct references and indirect references all throughout the old Testament. And they all point forward to Jesus, right? Like, like all of them that you can see the sweeping testimony of scripture from the old Testament into the culmination of Jesus, right? They're all of the prophets are talking about the coming of Jesus on some level, right? And then when you look at the new Testament,

And let's we could just take, for instance, the writings of Paul, because there's so many, right? All that Paul talks about points back to Jesus, right? So all the Old Testament points forward to Jesus and everything after the gospels points back to Jesus, right? So everything regarding prophecy, prophecy has nothing to do with predicting the future. Actually, it's not the primary function at all. It reveals the nature of God in Jesus, person Jesus, right? So it always points forward.

Murray (07:35.736)
Mmm.

Joshua Hoffert (07:52.694)
Forward in the Old Testament, backwards in the New Testament, because it always says, this is what he's like. so that's exactly what, that's what your book is about. And that's what your life is about. so I still want Murray to answer the question, what does Eric mean to Murray? But I also want to know, well, hold on, hold on, on. Just hold on just a sec. what is your, you were mentioning that you were having a conversation with the Orthodox priest in our area, that she's a friend of yours, right?

Murray (07:59.566)
be right back with that.

Murray (08:07.406)
Well, you know, it's

Joshua Hoffert (08:22.463)
So I'm curious, what's your church quote unquote affiliation at this point in your life?

Murray (08:30.05)
Me or Murray? Me,

Joshua Hoffert (08:30.987)
You? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you. No, I know Murty. Yeah, yeah.

Murray (08:36.622)
So I am an Orthodox Christian. I am Orthodox. Yeah. I was chrismated almost two years ago now. And, that was a very long, long pilgrimage. You could do a whole podcast on that. would be interesting. was about a 10 year, about a 10 year process for me. So it's not something I just dove into. I did a lot of exploring and thinking and all that. So, but yeah, so I am.

Joshua Hoffert (08:38.303)
You are Orthodox, okay? Right.

Joshua Hoffert (08:44.147)
Okay, wonderful.

Joshua Hoffert (08:51.925)
Sure, that would be. Right.

Joshua Hoffert (09:02.677)
course.

Murray (09:05.282)
officially an Orthodox Christian.

Joshua Hoffert (09:06.865)
Which, which parish are you?

Murray (09:09.23)
Holy Apostles mission in Chilliwack, BC, Canada.

Joshua Hoffert (09:10.475)
attending.

Joshua Hoffert (09:13.991)
Okay, right. Yeah. Right. Wonderful. And we've had we've had Father Mike on here a number of times. We the reason I ask is because we like to have we like we like the the variety of voices that come on and talk about the journey. And so I want people to understand like, you know, we're, we're talking with everybody. And, and we want to hear the journey and what what brought you to that place. So we had

Murray (09:37.678)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (09:43.435)
a couple, what was it, a few months back we had...

Father Deacon Chris Hawthorne on here, right? And so and so we talked for a great length about his journey into orthodoxy, right? Because it's a fascinating story. And yeah, so all that stuff is super fascinating. So yeah, so Murray, what does what does Eric mean to you?

Murray (09:55.598)
Oh, Chris. I'm a win.

Murray (10:02.184)
Okay. Absolutely.

Murray (10:12.418)
Well, you know, he's a Carol's Menodox like me. I don't know, he might put the words in a different order, but his dad was one of my Bible school teachers at Columbia Bible College, which was a Mennonite Bible school.

Joshua Hoffert (10:24.053)
So he enjoys pierogies and sausages as well. Yeah.

Murray (10:26.934)
Yeah, not vegan ones either. He can eat the real thing. and then we both ended up in the vineyard or renewal for quite a while. And then both realized that, see episode one, Voices from the Desert, everybody, that yes, prophecy is real and it works, but there was some... Yeah. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (10:48.841)
Or check the Patreon out because we talked about that, right? Check the Patreon out. Murray's introduction video there.

Murray (10:55.342)
So, and began this journey of, God speaks today. Like both of us very impacted, let's say by John Paul Jackson and that crowd, Graham Cook. And so how do you find the balance between character and gifting? And that really led us more towards, again, the Desert Fathers, right? Because they're having all the same experiences, but with such a different foundation, right?

Joshua Hoffert (11:15.093)
Right.

Murray (11:24.762)
And, and so we've just kind of really journeyed together for a long time on this. and, and, I would say that for Eric and I, if you don't mind me speaking, you know, into a microphone kind of a little bit loosely that. I mean, I don't know if it's our Mennonite heritage that keeps us a little bit more from going off the rails. Cause

You you got a lot of false humility too, and a lot of performance orientation, and you know, there's a lot of stuff to work through, but love of the nature of Christ, a desire for holiness in the inner man, a desire for true humility, not to take the microphone, to be a servant. All of these things are deeply ingrained in us from our Mennonite culture, right? And then you come into a charismatic prophetic culture, which

Joshua Hoffert (11:52.181)
Sure.

Joshua Hoffert (12:13.323)
Right.

Murray (12:16.578)
We both did. And then you find all that as Bruce Friesen used to say, the prophetic can be like a box of cereal full of nuts and flakes, you know? So, I mean, like, I'll give you an example. Just watch Eric's face when I tell this story. I'd be curious. I see now he's like, so last day, so this, God bless her, older lady at the retreat, I just came back from this retreat, right? And she's like, I'm a percussionist. Can I go play with a band? I'm like, well, you know, talk to the band, right? So I'm ready. I'm like, why do you need to be by the stage?

You know, what's with that? Just don't know her. She's not a part of Samuel's mantle. She just showed up, right? So, and there's a young man who's helping from the Bible camp. You know, he seems like a little bit troubled guy, probably super shy. So he seems, you know, working through some things. So when you're a speaker at something, it's the last 15 minutes when you're packing up, you got to be watching over your shoulder because somebody's weight in the corner. Right? And it's usually a crazy person. I hate to say it, but

Joshua Hoffert (13:11.06)
Right. That's true. Yeah.

Murray (13:16.766)
And so, of course, I've been looking right when I'm putting my suitcase in my car, right? I was looking for you. I just want you to know that if you would pray for Israel and Zion at every meeting, God will bless you. I'm like, okay, well, fine. And then she goes, by the way, the guy from the camp helping us, he's not a Christian. I'm like, really? You're going to prophesy to me and corner me to tell me this guy's not a Christian? I just, and I went, I actually know his family.

Joshua Hoffert (13:39.638)
Right.

Murray (13:45.794)
doesn't matter. I'm like, there is no freaking way. I didn't say that. I was a little rude though. And then when we were leaving, there was a new group coming. So a couple hundred people just show up. So we go stand in the middle of the field to kind of wrap it up. And this guy that she's talking about comes and joins our group. And you know, we're holding hands in a circle. He just comes to be with us and he says, I need you to know you were so kind to me, all of you. I was so blessed by your kindness. Thinking that's who this kid is.

Right there. The joint group of people he's never met to say that. I'm just like, so the problem is, and somebody comes out of, you know, God bless you, shepherding movement culture. You pick this thing up that one, you want to be next to the leader. Because if you're next to the man with power, and he's close to Jesus, that means you're close to Jesus, right? And number two, you want to be able to give him words as if you're a little bit above him and correct him, because that means you've got spiritual power.

Joshua Hoffert (14:16.044)
Right. Right.

Murray (14:45.932)
Right? And the shepherding guys run that way. And, and you know, she went by the playbook. That's how they do it. Who taught them that in prophetic ministry? That's what you do to the point. You can't even understand that you're manipulating the word of God to get close to somebody. mean, it's anathema, pride, manipulation, abusing the word of God, abusing people saying someone's not a Christian for your own. Like everything about that. So freaking evil to me.

Joshua Hoffert (14:59.82)
Mm-hmm.

Murray (15:16.14)
Right? And partly that's my midnight heritage. You just don't do that to people. You know? So, but where's discernment here that you can say that about that young man? Is he troubled? Yeah, sure. I think so. But to come to the conclusion he's not a Christian, you got to warn me? Wow. I just, no wonder people walk away from the prophetic gifts. You're going to use them like that. So anyway, so.

Back to our topic of discerning the presence of God in words, because there's a really bad example. That isn't even a prophetic word. Well, it's a word of knowledge, I guess. But it's not. Just say that it isn't. Yeah, it isn't. It wasn't, and it is not. Easy. And this is part of the problem, is what people are claiming is prophetic gives the prophetic a bad name, but it actually isn't prophetic.

Joshua Hoffert (15:47.36)
Yeah. Well, I just want to I want to hear. Yeah, it wasn't.

Joshua Hoffert (15:59.584)
Right. It's a flop. Yep.

Murray (16:12.94)
And I think we're reaching a point now where it's not as only becoming okay, but becoming necessary to start calling it out and just saying, not only is that not true, like it generally is not prophetic in nature, just because you carry a label or you call yourself that doesn't give you the right to claim that false words are prophetic. Like, and I think that there's been a hesitancy, certainly within myself to really kind of be that

blunt. But lately I have been feeling like a release to be more blunt and just start drawing a line on the sand like that because there's so little evidence of growth. There's so little evidence of self awareness. Like, it's just gone so far over that any hint of the gifting is faded to that point. So anyway,

You live or die.

Joshua Hoffert (17:13.308)
two things I want to say in regards to that, as we dive in even more is that, there you mentioned, Murray mentioned, the influence of John Paul Jackson, right. And the, and the renewal movement vineyard being one of the primary, you know, church denominations in that particular sphere. One is I just pulled this up, as a, an interesting note.

cause, cause Murray, you mentioned John Paul and you guys know, obviously I was, I was working with, John Paul's ministry for many years and it, was probably a decade into my time with, John Paul's ministry teaching his courses and, then starting to discover the, my introduction to, the, the contemplative literature was

John of the cross, dark night of the soul and Teresa Avala interior, no, her, the auto, her autobiography. Cause John Paul used to reference him all the time, in his teachings, but in his course, the art of hearing God, right? So you're referencing John Paul as an influential figure when it comes to prophecy and the gifts of the spirit back in the, back in the eighties, nineties, that kind of stuff. John Paul wrote this as in the introduction to his, his

beginning course to prophecy, the art of hearing God. He goes, this is just one part. it took, like I said, it was like a decade before I even caught this. And I had been teaching this and reading it so many times, over a hundred times easily, I taught this course. To prepare for the days ahead, the Holy Spirit is awakening our awareness about the teachings of the biblical prophets and the desert fathers who walked in the deeper things of God. And I was like, that guy, that dude was already on the cusp.

Murray (19:02.978)
not interesting.

Joshua Hoffert (19:08.928)
You know, 30 years ago, talking about we need to explore the principles taught in the desert fathers to understand the nature of prophecy and hearing the voice of God. And his whole message when it came to, the gifts of the spirit was that character was a more vital part of the Christian life than the gift of the spirit, then anybody's gift. Right. And, and, then also in regards to what you were saying, Eric is I was watching a few years back.

a series of videos from a conference at John Wimber, one of their Holy Spirit signs and wonders conferences, right? Where he would have people up and then it would have them give words of knowledge, prophesy, all that kind of stuff, right? That was Wimber was the everybody can play person. And, and in a way, the design of that as it plays out today has taken the

Murray (19:55.032)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (20:05.236)
kind of the bar for entry into prophetic ministry and put it all the way down here, right? All you kind of have to do is step over it. And now you're in prophetic ministry as opposed to the qualifications of what it looks like. We were talking about that earlier, right? Paul saying to Timothy, this is what the kind of person we should look at when it comes to who we listen to and let lead and guide, right? So we've taken the bar down the way down here, but I was struck by the fact that Wimber in the middle of one of his

sessions where he's got people pinging off and giving words. He called someone out and said, Hey, we got to talk about this word that you gave last session. That wasn't a word from the Lord. Right. And he just, but he did it. So, you know, it was gentle and kind, but it was direct and to the point that wasn't a word from the Lord. And, and he just, he just said it right. And it was like, okay. So there was a, there was a leader in the, in the

Murray (20:46.454)
wow.

Murray (20:52.184)
Yeah. Wow.

Joshua Hoffert (21:02.888)
in the renewal times of the vineyard that was going, Hey, everyone can play, but we still have some, some, you know, some expectations, right. And, we're going to, when some, when something's totally off, we're going to point it out and we're going to correct that in a loving and gentle way, but we're going to use it as a way to demonstrate what this is actually supposed to look like. And that I think is the piece that we find often missing when we've lowered the bar, right? Cause

Like how often is that dynamic? Well, you know, now if you question someone and question what the quote unquote revelation you're questioning your own and the way you're questioning their salvation, their integrity, all of this stuff. Right. And so people get really up in arms because there's an allegiance to particular voices. And it's like, well, that's not, if you say, well, that's not a word from the Lord. doesn't fit the biblical characteristics of a word from the Lord. doesn't sound like Jesus. Well, who are you to say that? You know, like it, it ministered to me. felt the anointing on it.

Murray (21:44.972)
Yeah, yeah.

Murray (21:57.752)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (22:02.374)
and people get really frustrated and upset. So that dynamic is almost nowhere to be found. And it's definitely a biblical dynamic and it's a dynamic when prophetic ministry has been seen in a very healthy way. Yeah, not without its problems, of course, but in a healthier expression. So I'm tracking with you, Eric, in what you're saying.

Murray (22:22.914)
Yeah. Exactly. Right. And the issue that you're totally pinpointing is there's a lack of pastoring in the prophetic, you know, and that's what John Wimber was doing. He was doing, fulfilling his role as a pastor to provide that safety, provide insight and teaching in a loving, caring way, which is exactly how it should function.

Joshua Hoffert (22:34.592)
Sure, yeah.

Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (22:52.769)
Yeah.

Murray (22:53.016)
There will always be problems and we're all not perfect. It's how we come together as a community, which is another issue around this, is things not happening in community. You have just solo prophetic ministries with no structure. So how do you even stay safe as the prophet or the speaker? You don't have people speaking that you trust to speak into you and go, hey, whoa, that might be, let's slow down on that. Like let's think of three together.

And this whole elevation to like, well, I'm, it's a prophecy. So therefore it's this infallible word. Like, no, that's not how it works. It's not how Paul describes it. how John describes it. I'm sorry. You know, like there's, there's no biblical foundation for that sort of thinking at all. So in fact, it calls it out. Right. but that's, I, I don't know how to address that. Like where are the pastors is kind of a question I have.

And why aren't they being able to address that or like aren't allowed to like, it's a real imbalance of power and it's not good. So, um, yeah. Oh, I love John Lambert. You know, I was going to say Graham Cook. I heard him speak once. Well, I heard him speak more than once, but one time he talked about the difference between just

everyone can play, but also the idea of a designation of a prophet, which I don't know how I feel about that anymore. but I remember he distinctly said 18 years minimum of being trained and taught under someone before you can even start talking about though, as the designation. And I don't know how he came up with the number 18, but

Joshua Hoffert (24:44.598)
Sure. Yeah.

Murray (24:49.582)
And I was in my, it was probably John Sanford's book Elijah task. Cause he says something like that. Yeah. could be, but I was in my, I was in my early twenties then, and I was just falling in love with the prophetic and I was stricken, you know, 18 years like, Oh my gosh. And now all these years later, I'm like, I don't think 18 years is enough. Yeah. Yeah, there is.

Joshua Hoffert (24:54.708)
He does say something. John Paul has this. Right.

Joshua Hoffert (25:13.59)
Well, that's, that's, there's a, there's a funny side note to that, that in John Paul had a similar experience reading John Sanford's book and he considered John Sanford a spiritual dad. And he said, when he told us when he read that part of the book that said it takes 18 years, he said he threw the book across the room. He was so frustrated. Right. And then when he actually asked John Sanford about it, John Sanford said, well, I just put that number in there, but it actually takes a lifetime. Right.

Murray (25:41.944)
There you go. Okay, well, he was right.

Joshua Hoffert (25:43.98)
And then John Paul, of course later was like, yeah, that's, so true. And, but guys like John Paul and the, of the reasons I respected him so much, I still respect, you know, the, memory of them anyway, is he refused to let people in his presence call himself, call him a prophet. And he was just a guy according to him. Right. And people call people, they've been calling him a prophet for decades. And he was like,

Murray (26:01.474)
Really, all night and all night?

Joshua Hoffert (26:12.05)
I, you know, he said, he said at one point, you know, I've, I feel like the Lord has shown me where prophecy is supposed to go as a ministry in the church. And we're not even close to that. So to call someone a prophet today just doesn't even make any sense. That was, that was his perspective, right? And, and his, and he would say, frankly, you can let other people call you that if they want to. Right. But you can't call yourself that you don't get to label yourself that. And, and so I think I just, I loved that. I remember one time.

Murray (26:24.428)
Well, good for him.

Joshua Hoffert (26:42.456)
friend of mine, a friend of all of ours walked into my office. And he likes calling people prophets that prophesy. And he goes, Hey, where are all the prophets at today? And he was, you know, implying Josh, you prophesy, right? And I was like, I don't know. That's what I said, too. I don't know. I have no clue. I still have no clue really.

Murray (26:57.176)
Ha!

Murray (27:04.6)
Exactly. And that's the beauty of it, the mystery and all that. Someone recently called me a prophet and I very quickly said, no, please don't call me that. I'm not, I don't consider myself that like, but I don't know.

Joshua Hoffert (27:06.112)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (27:13.768)
No. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (27:22.56)
Yeah.

Murray (27:23.79)
That's just too daunting a title in my opinion. I'm just a guy who tries to listen and bless others.

Joshua Hoffert (27:31.796)
Right. Well, and, and, and, you know, those things, they were a, it strikes me that in the scriptures, Paul doesn't refer to himself as the apostle Paul. He refers to himself as Paul and apostle of the Lord. Right. It's a, it's a function. It's not a title. It wasn't a, it wasn't a position or anything like that. That's not what he was communicating as a, as an apostle. He was a messenger.

Murray (27:52.258)
Yeah, that's the function.

Joshua Hoffert (28:00.128)
That was what he was, he was, he was going and preaching that Jesus had come and you know, everybody was called to him. That was, that was, it was a function. wasn't, I am the apostle Paul and now you must listen to me, right? Anytime.

Murray (28:11.128)
Yeah.

I remember John Wimber said, he would say, don't call me Pastor John. I don't call you Plumber Bob. There's a, prophetic words, David Ruse told this story. He was at this meeting of Wimber in the early days. And, and I guess, cause, cause you know, in more of the charismatic word faith guys, you know, you'll have that moment and the music's playing and it'll come down and some guy will start from the crowd. So there's some vineyard thing going on.

Joshua Hoffert (28:19.382)
Hahaha

Murray (28:41.186)
And this guy, when the music cuts down, he just stands up and starts going for it. And it's really quite condemning, right? So he's done prophesying and John Wimber says, church, does that sound like the voice of the Lord? And the whole place, 200 people go, no! This poor guy, right? It's like, so much for grabbing the stage, pal. I mean like, no church, what do you think? No! And he didn't do what he did.

Joshua Hoffert (28:56.661)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (29:01.92)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (29:05.664)
Yeah. Yeah. You know, in a way, in a way, even just addressing like, because most of us can look out there, survey the landscape and go that eight guys, right? Like you looking at prophetic ministry in general, and just go that's that is definitely not it. What we what we see in terms of the popular notion of it. And, you know, we can we can

we can, whether it's, ethnocentric or nationalistic, cause the, the common refrain in most countries, the word of the Lord always comes and it's going to strengthen the country and the country is going to get amazing, right? It's always ethnocentric or country or nationalistic in that sense, in a, in a, it, it's just, there's just, and I'm like, I just don't see that in scripture and especially in the new Testament and you know how

Murray (29:53.944)
Hmm.

Joshua Hoffert (30:03.66)
Oh, this nation will be saved and this will have this and this and whatever. that, you know, God's going to come and transform the nation. And, know, so I, you look at, and you can see so many inconsistencies in, cause if you listen to all the prophetic voices and all the nations, would be convinced that God really cared about national identity, right? Really cared about national identity.

Murray (30:24.14)
Yeah, that's a good statement. That's exactly how it seems.

Joshua Hoffert (30:27.838)
And you don't, you don't see that in scripture. And, so, so anyway, so we can survey the landscape and go, there's all the problems, right. And, but it almost seems daunting because you go, well, what, like, how do you fix it? Right? Like, it's like, there's no simple, I almost feel like I want to hear what you have to say, Marie. I almost feel like my pessimistic side, I almost feel like the whole thing just needs to die a grisly death.

Murray (30:43.64)
Well, I had one- Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (30:57.684)
over the next 30 to 50 years and be resuscitated in a completely different form. And people just forget what the dynamic is. And then it can kind of merge back out, emerge from the silence of a cave in the desert and go, that's actually what the word of the Lord sounds like. Right? Not this stuff that we had 30, 40 years ago, but this is the word of the Lord.

Murray (31:00.856)
Yeah.

Murray (31:13.71)
Hahaha

Joshua Hoffert (31:28.022)
So Murray, what were your thoughts? What were you going to say?

Murray (31:30.764)
You know, I absolutely forgot already. It'll come back. you know, it's, it's, it's interesting with, with prophecy that, you know, just for those of you listening, you kind of have to, you know, read the book of revelation and, and, you know, as I've said in the past,

Joshua Hoffert (31:32.446)
I, okay. Well then I guess I'll pose this question. So Eric. Yeah. Okay. Go ahead. Go ahead.

Murray (31:59.458)
We were talking about this, we were talking about Colin Firth, the guy that was Mr. Darcy in Pride and Prejudice, right? Isn't that him? There's so many Colin Firth, Colin Farrell, who was Colin Firth? And, you know, as a little illustration, everybody, that when Pride and Prejudice first came out was like a cassette tape VHS thing, like six hours, right? And man, man, it was emotionally torturous. I would have to leave the room. just couldn't.

Poor Mr. Darcy, so misunderstood. couldn't handle that. I'd leave and people would go, in or out, you know? Like, I can't take it. So one day I snuck down the last tape when no one was there. Yeah. That's right. So I fast forwarded to the end and I watched the last five minutes. And of course it all works out great for Mr. Then you know where it goes. Well, you know, do that with your Bible. Like, if you want to know where the Bible goes, where does it go? And it goes to a wedding ceremony.

Joshua Hoffert (32:35.764)
or misunderstood Murray is seeing his life play out before him in pride and prejudice.

Murray (32:57.27)
And the last part of the scripture is the spirit and the bride say come. mean, so if that's where it goes, why are you using prophecy to talk about the antichrist all the time? I mean, what's your focus? Like when you read the book of Revelation, just think about it. It's a horse shag to you. It's an inkblot. It's revealing to you your view of reality and you're going to profs out of your view of reality. So how have you, how have you shaped your view of reality and compare that to where it actually goes? Does it fit? So

Joshua Hoffert (33:06.654)
Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Joshua Hoffert (33:14.305)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (33:25.142)
Yeah.

Murray (33:27.362)
And that's something people don't understand is that that prophecy comes through your culture, your education, your upbringing, your religion, your wounding, your personality type, all that paradigm stuff is at play. And if you don't know that and you're assuming everything is hot off the press, you get yourself in trouble and how you know it out. If it doesn't lead where the book ends, it's out. Right. Anyway, that's my last. Good. I like that. That's good.

Joshua Hoffert (33:52.8)
That, you know, I just, with that said, Murat.

Murray (33:56.579)
Good old Mr. Darcy, learned something from that.

Joshua Hoffert (33:59.596)
I want to this you're making me think about this. And then I have a question for Eric. when, when just thinking of the desert fathers as, as the, the par exemplar, when it comes to the, the exercise of spiritual gifts, when it strikes me that anybody that does something notable for Jesus,

actually, anybody who's even saved, but we'll say notable for Jesus does somewhat something that marks their name in history has always in the begin. It begins with an encounter. Whether it's an encounter through the reading of the word, like Anthony, the great walks into church, here's the reading of the word. And though your sins are I think it's Isaiah.

though your sins are a scarlet, I'll make them white as snow. I think that's the one that Anthony initially hears. Or no, it's the words to rich young ruler, go and sell all you have and come and follow me. That's the one it is. Yeah. And he's so struck to the core, right? So it's the preaching of the word that is the first encounter that drives him, Or Pecomios, who was later kind of the heir of Anthony, he's serving in the army and

Murray (35:01.548)
Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (35:24.091)
And the Christians take care of the soldiers who are wounded and in dire straits, basically in the city, you know, they have they not they fed by the Christians nurse back to help by the Christians. So he says, as soon as I'm done with this army thing, I'm going to the first church that I can find and dedicating my life to God, right. So his his, his encounter is metered out through other Christians, right. So he encounters the grace and mercy and tenderness of Jesus through other Christians. Or there's and there's lots of stories about a

Murray (35:42.734)
Wow, really beautiful.

Joshua Hoffert (35:52.416)
quote unquote, a personal divine encounter where the Lord reveals himself to a person phenomenally. And, but, but if you look at what Anthony does and what Pecomios does, the kind of the very first impetus after this encounter is to go to the wilderness. It's it is Anthony sells everything he has.

And then he goes to study under a local hermit because he wants to learn the ways of the spiritual life, right? Or, or Pachomios and his brother go into the desert and they, they see studies under a particular guy for a number of years. And then, the, the, the, movement is into, obscurity, not into, fame, right? It, the movement is always into obscurity. And then.

at their almost kicking and screaming their name becomes known. Right. And so we've got this completely flipped on its head today where someone has something happened to them. And now, okay, I got to build a platform and let everybody know about it. Right. So it makes me go, okay, if the, if in ancient Christianity, when they encountered the spirit,

Murray (36:52.386)
Yeah, very true.

Joshua Hoffert (37:19.061)
their natural tendency was to go into hiding. And today people are encountering the spirit and their natural tendency is to try and seek fame. What are they actually encountering? Is it, is it just a matter of broken humans or is it, you know, is there something more sinister at play? And, I'm just, just thinking out loud going, if your response is to go, need to create fame and fortune with this encounter. What are you actually encountering?

Um, and I, you know, that's the pushback I would want to give, but people aren't, people aren't necessarily willing to hear that kind of pushback, uh, especially when you do it, you know, I, you know, I love the Nathan to David thing, right? Nathan goes to David personally because he has a relationship with him and corrects him and says, Hey, you know, this isn't right what you've done. Um, so there's that matter of having a personal relationship with people and being able to bring, um, the kind of strong encouragement that was so well, maybe rethink about that. Right. But in terms of looking at the broader culture going,

Murray (38:16.174)
Hmm.

Joshua Hoffert (38:19.839)
We might need to have a bigger conversation about this, or at least be aware. Hey, the dynamic in Christian history is hidden this not fame. And, and fame was a thing that happened not because you saw it like thinking about, we've talked about, the guy, the Orthodox church really wishes was there's a Francis of Assisi. Yeah. Same, same thing, right? He's got, he's set up like he's, he's

Murray (38:41.088)
I think Francis, yeah, we kind of.

Joshua Hoffert (38:48.255)
He's set up to be the guy in his region because he comes from such a wealthy family and he strips all of his clothes off and walks off naked. Like as, as the story goes going, I walk in leaving it all behind and ends up at a little broken down church building. And here's the Lord say to him, repair my church. And he takes it literally and just starts building the building back up. And eventually people come out. He's not looking for anything, right?

All he's doing is trying to be faithful to the conviction of his heart in the encounter that he's had. And, he, he wanders into obscurity and eventually everybody knows who he is, but he has no desire for that. And, it's like that, that, that paradigm in terms of the circles we find ourselves in seems to be so entirely forgotten.

Murray (39:45.722)
I think that that goes to what Marie was saying about our paradigms and our culture and all that play.

where like we live in a culture of celebrity. We have people who are influencers and they make money being on TikTok doing, I don't know what they do. I don't pay attention much, but it blows my mind.

Joshua Hoffert (39:57.28)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (40:07.115)
Well, TikTok in the state, didn't realize this, Aaron, my wife told me this, TikTok in the States pays you per view.

Murray (40:13.538)
wow. It's crazy.

Joshua Hoffert (40:14.879)
Yeah, I had no idea that was because that doesn't happen in Canada, right? There's that's that's not legal, I guess somehow. But yeah, you get paid. If you can get views, you get paid regardless.

Murray (40:25.014)
Wow. So, so everybody's kind of, it's in the culture, it's in the air, so to speak, to notoriety and fame somehow means I am, you know, I'm, I'm worth something I have, I've accomplished this goal, like, that's what we're supposed to pursue and all that. And so Christians aren't immune to that at all. Whereas, so what we've lost,

Joshua Hoffert (40:30.207)
Yeah.

Murray (40:52.366)
I would say is the understanding of spiritual formation and transformation.

So people aren't pursuing what I would say is the most vital thing about the Christian life and being a Christian, which is to be transformed into the likeness of Christ. That's what it's about. Like if you take that as your lens and go read the New Testament, it will come alive for you in a new way. Like that is the good news, right? But if that's not your focus and you have a wonderful encounter and you don't have people to speak into your life and help you.

Your culture tells you, I've had this amazing encounter. Now that must mean I've been given this mission to build something instead of, my goodness, this is a beginning of a journey of transformation. And people need to hear that. They need to be taught that because it's a lost teaching in a sense. mean, that's one of the reasons I've ended up in orthodoxy is that what I just described is at the core.

Joshua Hoffert (41:53.663)
Yeah, absolutely.

Murray (41:59.606)
of Orthodox theology and spirituality. You talk about it in more complicated ways if you want, but it's about dying to self, it's about becoming like Jesus, which is, requires intense daily humbling. Because every day you realize, I'm so far from that completion and obviously it's an infinite thing, but. And so that then bleeds into all the spiritual gifts, not just even prophecy.

Joshua Hoffert (42:23.285)
Right, right.

Murray (42:29.23)
And how do they function? How do we walk in them? How do we have character in them or not? Because character comes from becoming like Jesus. Well then, if you don't mind, this might be a good thing to talk about, depending because you think about all the different people and where they're at listening. From your point of view, from what you just said, could you break down how we grew up believing about salvation, the Charismatic, compared to how the

Joshua Hoffert (42:38.047)
Right. So.

Murray (42:58.99)
Orthodox view the word salvation. Cause it kind of fits. Cause I remember, I remember to set that up, maybe give you a little bit. Remember Callistus Ware saying he was on a train wearing his cross and his outfit, you know, and this guy comes up to him, brother, are you saved? And he thinks for a second and he says, I'm in the process of being saved. You want to expound on that a little bit or? Well, that's Paul. Daily we're being renewed, daily we're being saved.

Joshua Hoffert (43:26.624)
Right.

Murray (43:28.14)
Salvation is an ongoing transformation of your being. It is not force built your laws and not to upset anyone, it's not a say one prayer and you're done. We'll see at the end. Right? Salvation is good news that your very nature is now becoming like Christ who is God. And I think that

Joshua Hoffert (43:42.933)
Right.

Murray (43:56.78)
You can't overstate that. I feel I've experienced and I've seen how Jesus kind of is being glossed over because he's become a figurehead. He's become a mascot. Why? It's true. No, I don't disagree. like, wow. And when you do that, he is no longer divine. When I can just prop up Jesus and say all my terrible things.

and it's all okay because I'm a Christian. Here's Jesus. What have I done? That's no longer Jesus. I've created an idol for my ideology.

Joshua Hoffert (44:27.401)
Right, Yeah.

Murray (44:37.568)
So where's salvation in any of that, right? It's all become a personal agenda. It's become my personal whatever.

Whereas true salvation is this good news that there's an old self and there's a true self and the true self is in us and has to have life breathed into it. And while the old man, you know, it's the whole New Testament, the old man passing away and the new man, the new creation is coming to life. That doesn't happen in an instant. It takes a lifetime. Some would say it takes an eternity because God is infinite. Therefore our transformation is infinite.

Good word. So that's a big difference. The other big difference is in orthodoxy, Jesus has overcome death. He has overcome sin.

He has not become, sorry evangelicals, but he has not become a sacrifice for your sins, your behaviors, your morality or immorality. He has overcome cosmic forces that kept us separated from God. And death is the big one, right? The result of sin is death. Paul again. So when Jesus overcomes death at the cross,

Joshua Hoffert (45:49.13)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (45:54.08)
Yeah.

Murray (45:59.522)
he has totally upended the system. And actually, I would say restored the system to what God's vision was all along. So there's some very big differences theologically between orthodoxy and evangelicalism.

Joshua Hoffert (46:08.607)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (46:14.891)
And I think I think today, what I'm encouraged by are how influential speakers like someone like NT Wright have become right because he as an Anglican, I in a number of his books, but the one I first came across the concept was in his book, How God Became King, he talks about penal substitutionary atonement as the because that's the kind of default of the evangelical church when it comes to

Murray (46:24.204)
Mmm.

Joshua Hoffert (46:43.531)
their the thought process about the sacrifice of Jesus, right? And you just offered an alternative that's completely different. Right? He Jesus didn't, he didn't necessarily die as a sacrifice on your behalf. He died to conquer death. And in conquering death, he conquers cosmic forces that are throughout the universe. And he's restored the the the right

you know, righteousness being the right standing of the universe and its order and function and how it's supposed to be. Right. And I think NT Wright has been capturing that for a number of years now, because he taught in how God became King. talks about the speaker volumes and he's going, it's not so much that we need to get rid of penal substitutionary atonement. It's that the volume has been at nine and it needs to be at four. Right. Because that's all that anybody listens to is did he die on your behalf? Yes. But

Murray (47:21.272)
Really?

Murray (47:34.072)
You

Joshua Hoffert (47:40.436)
What does that mean? So we need to turn it. need to dial the volume back. And some of these other ones that some of these other ways that scripture characterizes the sacrifice of Jesus have been turned down to volume one in the evangelical church. And so those need to be raised to volume four or five or six so that now we can hold all those things in, in communion together rather than God was so angry that he had to judge him.

Murray (47:50.914)
Mm.

Joshua Hoffert (48:07.591)
his son and kill him so that he could take his wrath out and no longer be wrathful. Right? So, and he writes language would be that we've paganized God, right? We're back to pagan sacrifices to placate a deity. And, and that's because we've turned the volume up so high. And that volume needs to come right back down. And, and there's, there's ways of conceptualizing the ministry of Jesus and his death on the cross that have been totally lost.

in the evangelical church, but some of the historic, the Catholic, the Anglican, the Orthodox, it's not necessarily gone anywhere there. But the problem is, you know, you guys aren't nearly as loud. There's not a lot of loud, yeah, there's not a lot of loud Orthodox people. So.

Murray (48:49.742)
Well, no, it's the nature of the church. Yeah.

And the loud ones aren't that great. They're a bit off the rails these days. But let me say this so people understand where I'm coming from is that, and this really changed my personal understanding. I was visiting with an Orthodox Archbishop actually. And this was before I was Orthodox years and years ago. he said, do you have any questions for me? And I said,

And I asked him, like, so how do you understand salvation? This very question. And he said, he said, the most important thing you need to know is that your understanding of sin is wrong. And I was like, okay. And I, and he said, what you don't understand is that sin is not about behavior. It's about alienation. Ooh.

Joshua Hoffert (49:47.467)
That's a good statement. like that.

Murray (49:49.44)
And that moment changed my trajectory because all of sudden I just, if I was the Holy Spirit, just listen to this because I've been beating myself up for behavior my entire life to that point and just feeling like I will, I am I say, you know, like just all that turmoil. No sin is what separates and alienates us from God, from our friends, from our enemies, from nature.

Joshua Hoffert (49:52.906)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (49:58.752)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (50:03.081)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (50:08.064)
Right.

Murray (50:19.17)
Right? So it's the breaking of shalom.

where we understand shalom is the word to describe the unity of reality, where all relationships are restored, reconciled, completely, okay, like 100 % loving. That's what was shattered at the fall. And so what Jesus does at the cross is he overcomes sin in the sense that he is overcoming alienation and he is restoring the ability

and the reality of having shalomic relationships, not just with God, but with all of your fellow humans. Okay, is far more incredible to me than saying that his death is covering my swear words today or whatever it is that I think is sin.

Okay, it's a much more profound understanding of what's happening at the cross. So when I say he's overcome death and sin, I'm really saying he's overcome death and alienation. Okay, and that provides hope. Okay, right now we look around the world and we're like, holy crap, there's wars, there's famine, there's terrible things happening. And it's easy to despair.

Joshua Hoffert (51:40.981)
Sure.

Murray (51:42.392)
But here the good news, Jesus has overcome death and he's overcome alienation, which means there is real reason to hope if you're a Christian, that wars will cease, that senseless killing will stop, that my estrangement from family members can be overcome, right? It's addressing all of these human issues in this kind of this one word, alienation versus shalom. So I wrote about this in my thesis.

Joshua Hoffert (51:56.235)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (52:08.938)
Yeah.

Murray (52:11.202)
I have a lot to say about it, but.

Joshua Hoffert (52:12.287)
Well, it I remember reading or the number of years ago, looking up and studying the word for sin in the Old Testament. And that that right there, this was I've been 10 years ago, 15 years ago. And I remember reading it, the definition going that doesn't sound like what I've been told. And because the definition of it was that the word for sin was the same word for the cord that's used to measure the distance.

Murray (52:29.997)
Hmm

Joshua Hoffert (52:42.119)
an arrow lands from its target on a, on a shooting board. Right. So the word for sin is the cord that's used. So it's, and so I always see, you know, like you're saying sin was always my, you know, moralizing my thoughts and actions. Right. So what have I done? I did. I sin today. Did I have a wrong thought, a wrong action? Was there a judgment or motive in my heart?

Murray (52:51.343)
interesting.

Joshua Hoffert (53:08.107)
And now that's what I needed to quote unquote repent of. that's what drives me crazy about the, the, the, the, the ongoing renewal movement people is if we repent enough, finally renewal will happen again. Right. That's, and we're talking repentance. We're talking about the particular things that we've done. Right. We need to repent for the culture because of abortions. We need to repent because of this repent because of that. And I, and I realized in studying the word for sin that

It's not so much the individual actions. It's the measurement of distance is, and which is exactly what you're saying, right? The concept is sin shows me my alienation, right? It shows me that the, the, the center point is here, but I've landed over here. And so I can see now my alienation based on how I've lived my life. And so I've been alienated from God. And so because I'm alienated from God,

Murray (53:49.752)
Yes.

Murray (54:01.874)
Thanks for your time.

Joshua Hoffert (54:06.024)
I act in a way that disintegrates all my relationships. But it's when I'm drawn closer to him, my heart softens and tenderizes. I'm changed and I'm becoming like the image of Jesus. And all of a sudden my relationships aren't nearly as disintegrated anymore. Right? My kids don't hate me anymore. Right? You know, like that kind of stuff is, and, and it's like, not because I repented for a particular sin, but because I encountered what he's actually like and the

Murray (54:23.285)
Joshua Hoffert (54:33.6)
The distance between me and him diminished because he made a movement towards me. Right. And so I'm no longer alienated, not because of anything I've done, but because he's moved towards me and I can't help but respond and move towards him. And, and it, the concept has to, you're so right to the concept of what the problem is has to, so it has to be so, and this goes back to the problems with spiritual gifts.

Murray (54:37.868)
Yeah, that's a good word.

Murray (54:48.718)
Exactly.

Joshua Hoffert (55:04.256)
Right. Is, is if my concept of what needs, what the fundamental human dilemma is, is, is, moral, the, the moralization of my actions, then the gifts are going to be used to address that. Right. But if the concept is the distance and alienation from God, then guess what? Prophecy finally finds its rightful place.

in pointing people back to Jesus, this is what he's like so that the alienation, hey, you're no longer alienated. He's like this. He's moved towards you. But if it's moralizing and legal, you know, I've, I've committed legal injunctions against God. And so now I have to fundamentally point the gifts in the way of addressing those legal injunctions, right? Your sin or your problem is this or whatever.

But if, if I can properly understand the problem is alienation, then I'm drunk. Then my call is people come, come home. Right. I was read just recently the, um, uh, Psalm 84, think it is blessed as a man in whom, um, are the Pilgrim ways. Right. Or, uh, or, uh, if you look through and translate it, depending on if you're looking at which translation you're looking at it, but blessed are the man in whose ways or in whose heart are the ways home that that's the, the

Murray (56:25.326)
Yeah, ooh beautiful

Joshua Hoffert (56:29.888)
The heart is trying to find its way home. And this is where, know, Jesus is going to straighten narrow and all of this, right? The straight and narrow is the way home. Like your heart wants to go there. And the only place to find that place of reintegration, to find that place of truly belonging and love and acceptance is the person of Jesus. And it's like, humans been looking for it, humanity has been looking for it for so long and they just keep missing it, missing it, missing it, Because we can't create it. So.

Murray (56:58.04)
can't create it and you also need to understand what that path home is. And so it's, you just said it so well, like if you believe it's all about accomplishing some sort of moral perfection and opposing what you think is immoral as your primary action, you're nowhere near the path that takes you home. You're just caught, you're still stuck in the cycle of

Joshua Hoffert (57:16.064)
Yep.

Murray (57:26.794)
judgment and condemnation and, lack of love performance, all these things that Jesus has overcome so that you don't have to live in those things. And yet somehow the gospel became do those, like do be stuck in those things. And if you just work hard enough within that mire, you're going to, you know, it like, it just, and this is sort of, you know, my journey, like I believed all that.

Joshua Hoffert (57:32.844)
That's right.

Joshua Hoffert (57:39.606)
Yeah, that's right.

Joshua Hoffert (57:48.15)
Yeah, that's right.

Joshua Hoffert (57:56.225)
Right.

Murray (57:56.268)
And I've had to wait, you had to wade through that and weed through it. And, and I'm still have days where I'm having to unwind that stuff because it's so deep in there. But my understanding has changed so much that I can address it and I can go, okay, hold on. That's, that's old. Like you don't have to live under that. Right. So, and I, and I think prophecy.

Joshua Hoffert (58:11.328)
Yeah, that's right.

Right.

Murray (58:22.06)
At least for me, when I am functioning prophetically.

My heart is always to provide comfort and strength, right? And a good word, good, what's the word? Exsortation. Right? Which is a teaching that lists someone up. It's not something that points out their faults, accuses them of anything. and this is where we've lost the heart of prophecy in the popular way it's been used.

Joshua Hoffert (58:33.366)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (58:39.796)
Excerpt.

Joshua Hoffert (58:44.438)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (58:51.798)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (58:57.366)
Right.

Murray (58:57.824)
It doesn't even look like what Paul and John talk about as prophecy. So what is it? And that's where I'm feeling this desire to be blunt. It's like, it's, if it's not what we've been given scripturally, and it doesn't look like Jesus or sound like Jesus, probably isn't. What is it? Like, what should we actually be calling this?

Joshua Hoffert (59:04.876)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (59:19.072)
Yeah.

I had I had this dream a few years back. I think I've mentioned this to Meru before. And in the dream, I was listening to a conversation. And that was and this dream was like 15 years ago that was going. The conversation was something like this. The way that we teach and train and conceptualize prophecy is based off of the failures of the last three moves of God.

Murray (59:50.442)
interesting.

Joshua Hoffert (59:52.03)
And so we teach people what not to do. We teach people what the mistakes are and we've conceptualized prophecy around that. And, and the conversation, the lingering question in the conversation I was listening to in this stream was if all we've ever done is think about what prophecy isn't, what is it actually? And that was what

Nobody had grasped yet was what is it? Because all we've thought about is what not to do, what it isn't. Well, it's not that it's not that it's not. And there's value to that, right? There's value to separating the what it isn't from what it is. And that was kind of the, the, you know, what, what, you know, in my estimation is what the spirit was trying to inspire was let's start talking about what it actually is. And, and I think, you know, I think

We're not there, but we're having we have a better understanding today, right? Where we're talking we're you know, what we were what you were just saying right prophecy like it's so funny to go like we can talk about what it is like you if you took I Thought I had this thought a while back if you took the Gospels out of the Bible you you probably wouldn't really miss it when it comes to popular teachings on prophetic ministry

Like you could just kind of remove the gospels and you wouldn't lose any references to the Bible and in prophetic ministry teaching. Because no one, no one, most people don't think about what Jesus was like when they think about the gift of prophecy, right? They'll look at first Corinthians 14, they'll look at first Corinthians 12, they're looking at Romans 12, Ephesians four, right? Stuff like that. But people aren't looking at, well, how did Jesus address the woman at the well?

Murray (01:01:23.02)
Boy. Yeah.

Hmm.

Joshua Hoffert (01:01:44.65)
Right. Or they'll think of it functionally, right? Like, that's the word of knowledge, but that's the extent of it. Right. And, or, or she acted as an apostle, right? So that's the extent of it. or the woman with the issue of blood, right? It's a word of knowledge. That's the extent of it. Not well, what did he look like? How did he care for her? What was his, what was his way of delivery and what was, how was, how did he emote himself to her? Right. That's what did he look like in that moment? That's not the way that we think about it. Right.

Murray (01:01:44.845)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (01:02:13.744)
And, to say, like, for instance, like you said it right, Revelation 19 10, you started off quoting that is, is that's not even the, that should be the underpinning for any training on prophecy. And it's, it's like, all it, like the best I ever heard it communicated was that, well, if you talk about what Jesus has done, it prophesies what he's going to do. Like that was what people, that's how people interpreted that in,

Murray (01:02:28.664)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (01:02:41.522)
in my neck of the woods, right? So it wasn't even a consideration that all the prophecy has to be seen through the lens of Jesus. It was just a functional, well, let's just throw that out there.

Murray (01:02:55.502)
You know, I'm going to give a good example, because if that's okay, a prophecy. Good example. Well, then before you say that, I want to say, because you mentioned the woman at the well whose name is Fultini. Yes, this is a good story. I consider that encounter probably the best example of prophetic ministry that we have. And I devote an entire chapter to it in my book because...

Joshua Hoffert (01:03:22.227)
Okay.

Murray (01:03:23.648)
And I really unpack it like step by step because Jesus is providing us the exact model of how prophetic ministry should function and how it overcomes alienation and there's restoration. There's teaching like, he does it all there. It's just amazingly beautiful. I would encourage anyone listening to go and read that story slowly.

Joshua Hoffert (01:03:35.776)
bright.

Joshua Hoffert (01:03:43.552)
Yeah, that's right.

Murray (01:03:51.862)
and watch what he is doing. And if you need help, you can get my book, but you don't have to. But, seriously, I think it's such a central central story. Anyway, go ahead.

Joshua Hoffert (01:03:51.872)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (01:03:56.342)
Pick up the book. Yeah. We'll put the, we'll put a link to the book in the video description for sure. And the podcast.

Joshua Hoffert (01:04:06.494)
Yeah, that's good. Mer, why don't, Mer, we got to wrap up. So why don't you finish with your thoughts?

Murray (01:04:12.526)
Yeah, well, just because I can't remember a time that either of us have shared a positive prophetic word. So thought, you know, I probably should since I picked on that older lady in the beginning here. Feeling a little guilty about that, but it's the same. So, you know, just came from a retreat with students from San Luis Matos, you know, all these students. And there's a lady there that I don't know who's not a current student. She's from the States somewhere. Nice lady. And Ed.

Joshua Hoffert (01:04:21.302)
Go for it. Yeah, that's a good note to end on.

Murray (01:04:42.81)
Just remember there's another 60, 70 people there and we're all listening to the Lord giving it away. That's prophecy hearing. So it's not just me, but I'm have to tell you mine because I don't remember anybody else's so I can only tell you mine. don't be too impressed by this is what I'm telling you. It's just an average day at work. It's just you learn how to hear and you give it away. So I'm praying for this lady. And again,

You know how this flows, know, often as you speak, God gives you more. You don't know all of it at once. It just kind of flows, right? So I'm praying for a night. This is what I get. You've been in a time of real significant waiting for a year and you've intentionally done it because in the past you used to demand of God, I'm doing all these things for you. Seek first your kingdom. All these things will be added, but they're not. And you've been angry.

But in the last while, you have learned to see that in your heart, there was this anger. And that's what you've worked on to overcome for a year, that you could just sit with him and not be driven by performance, not be driven by anger, not be driven. And the Lord wants you to know you've done a great job reforming your soul. And because of that, now, because you have rest, he can start opening doors for you to start ministering to people because you're not making it about them succeeding or failing, you're making it about them becoming like Christ. And he wants you to know,

Joshua Hoffert (01:06:01.804)
That's right.

Murray (01:06:03.372)
You've formed your soul well and he's going to graduate because you've actually let him touch your insides. You know what she's like? You just told me the last year of my life. And I'm like, well, I didn't really know. I just drink a lot of coffee and talk. That's kind of my trick. But you see that prophetically. What was that about? Shaping somebody into the image of Jesus, helping them along their way of becoming like Jesus.

Joshua Hoffert (01:06:14.678)
Wow.

Murray (01:06:31.768)
transforming broken areas of their being to look like Jesus so that they end they go, thank you Jesus, you've been with me and training me as I've walked with you. That's prophecy, right?

Joshua Hoffert (01:06:41.578)
Right? Yeah. That, that, that diminished alienation. Yeah. I like that definition. Prophecy helps to diminish the alienation from God. That's a good one. That's our takeaway. well, with that, with that, it's, I know we got, appointments and stuff to be at, so we're going to call this episode to a close. Eric, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and your journey. And yes, it's been wonderful.

Murray (01:06:47.724)
Yeah. 100%. And it helps shape somebody.

Murray (01:06:56.995)
Yeah.

Murray (01:07:04.246)
Yeah!

Murray (01:07:08.11)
Thanks for having me.

Joshua Hoffert (01:07:11.21)
sitting down with you again. You had to get over to Murray's for us to do it. So yeah. And Murray, it's always as always, it's just so much fun to spend time with you. Love you very much, my friend. And everybody thanks. Thanks for jumping on for our journey as we're, as we're going deeper and deeper. And you guys have been awesome following along and, and, give us a review, you know, if you liked the podcast or if you don't like the podcast, I guess you could review it too.

Murray (01:07:14.318)
I know that's funny isn't it? Yeah.

Murray (01:07:22.922)
Thank you, YouTube.

Joshua Hoffert (01:07:38.657)
and check out our Patreon. You can find the link in the video, in the podcast description, and, you can support Voices from the Desert there. So thanks everybody. And until next time, God bless.

Murray (01:07:51.95)
Queen wave. Bye.

Joshua Hoffert (01:07:53.036)
Queen wave, bye.