From the street to the church: becoming a pastor, an interview with Justin Menzies Artwork

Voices from the Desert

In the early days of Christianity, men and women fled to the desert and became the wisest sages of their era. Voices from the Desert explores how the wisdom of Ancient Christianity applies to our modern world. Where do the streams of historic Christianity intersect with contemporary Christianity? And how do we come to know God deep in our heart? Join Joshua Hoffert and Murray Dueck for a deep dive into the mystics, union with God, patristic theology and what it all means in our modern world.

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Voices from the Desert

From the street to the church: becoming a pastor, an interview with Justin Menzies

December 23, 2025 • Joshua Hoffert and Murray Dueck

Join Josh as he interviews long time friend Justin Menzies, pastor of First Love Church in Calgary. Justin shares his story of running away from home at a young age only to be found by God and radically transformed.

For more about Justin and First Love Church, visit: https://firstlovechurch.ca/

For more about Voices from the Desert, visit: https://www.patreon.com/VoicesfromtheDesert

Welcome everybody to another episode of voices from the desert desert desert. The lonely coyote how the voice in the desert or I guess, know, structurally we've got the voice of one crying out in the wilderness and uh, but uh, uh, welcome everybody. Um, you'll notice maybe curiously absent is the

Justin Menzies (00:42.51)
Hahaha

Joshua Hoffert (01:00.1)
secondary voice on the intro. And that's my good friend and co host Murray compatriot, Murray do it. And we are you know what we're we're expats of the world living in the kingdom, anticipating a future reality. And yes, that's right. You hear another voice here and I'll introduce him in in just a second. But Murray is working on the farm.

Justin Menzies (01:18.861)
Amen.

Joshua Hoffert (01:28.756)
getting everything winterized and my my co-host runs a Murray runs a hobby kind of a hobby farm animal recovery farm in the in the mountains of Kamloops and as with any farm everything's always going haywire and so your prayers for covering Murray would be very appreciated as he's navigating getting everything ready for the the winter the winter months pipes freezing and water

water mains not working and flooding and all that stuff is always a reality. So he's getting everything ready there. And, and so but I'm back with an episode of voices from the desert where we, we talk about story and journey and how God encounters us in those desert places and forms his presence in our lives and then, then sends us into the world to introduce them to the desert as well. And you kind of feel like always, once you've encountered him like that, feel

like an outsider looking in all the time. And, and it's a beautiful and wonderful thing. And I'm here with one of one of my pretty old friend here, you know, like, it's almost it's nine 20 years, actually, you know that? Almost 20 years. And I've known you for longer than I've known Murray, actually. So, you know, yeah.

Justin Menzies (02:42.637)
Almost 20 years. That's a while to think about.

Joshua Hoffert (02:52.327)
And, and I think technically I've known you longer than I know my wife by maybe, you know, an hour or two. So yeah, that's, yeah, that's right. You forever have her beat. That's right. Yeah, that's right. It lets you die before me. Then I can, I can finally make it up. We'll see. Yeah. Yeah. We'll see. You have lived a harder life than I am. So you never know, you know, yeah.

Justin Menzies (02:58.549)
A few hours, yeah. Yeah. I forever have her meat.

yeah, right, then we'll see. Right, yeah, we'll see what happens.

Justin Menzies (03:19.398)
It's true and I greatly desire to depart to be with the Lord which is far better. Very biblical.

Joshua Hoffert (03:22.143)
That's a very biblical. That's right. That's right. That's right. So I'm here with my very dear friend, Justin Menzies. And I'll introduce to you. I'll tell you what Justin does now. But first, I have to tell you about what he means to me. And Justin, the context for anybody listening, Justin was the best man in my wedding.

And so he oversaw, you know, totally vulnerable moment. He oversaw, Hey, it's your wedding night. We need to go get you new underwear. He oversaw things like that's how intimate I know this man. Yes. And, so I know Justin very well. And we were roommates together when we interned with, John Paul Jackson's ministry streams ministries, deeply formative years for both of us.

Justin Menzies (03:58.988)
That's very true.

Joshua Hoffert (04:19.144)
And I saw Justin speak in tongues for the first time, you know, for anybody that listens. Sometimes we are weird charismatics. and, you know, biblically rooted, but weird and, if you're not weird, yeah.

Justin Menzies (04:31.069)
Yeah. Hey, I didn't even, I wasn't even sure tongues was a thing until they started coming out of my mouth. So.

Joshua Hoffert (04:37.276)
I remember that. And then, and then we had a conversation in our room, like, what, tell me about this stuff here. And, so, and now, you know, that was part of my background, right? Was that, and I remember, I remember one of my fondest memories of Justin is we had a book assignment, and the book assignment was the book called breaking free of rejection. Yeah. And, and it was all about, one man's story of.

Justin Menzies (04:42.761)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (04:59.261)
Hahaha

Joshua Hoffert (05:05.8)
struggling with rejection and you know how the Lord brought him out of that and overcame it. And I think Justin got about halfway through the book and then threw it across the room and said none of this makes any sense and I don't struggle with rejection and I'm not going to read this anymore or something along those lines. Yes. This book is stupid. I'm pretty sure there was a huck across the room as well. So yeah. And I remember looking at him and just going

Justin Menzies (05:21.097)
Yeah, yeah, like this book is stupid.

there was, there was, yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (05:35.583)
He rejected the book that talked about rejection. Maybe there's something there. Yeah. And little did we know, you know, that the the the stuff that God would would dive each one of us into and the women that he would connect us with and the journeys there and Justin say, if Aaron describes Justin, my wife describes Justin, she's he's the brother that she never had growing up.

Justin Menzies (05:39.711)
You got some issues, yes.

Justin Menzies (05:57.188)
yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (06:04.664)
and very fond and affectionate relationship there. Justin taught her how to punch much to my chagrin. Yeah, I should have seen her punching before. So he toughened her up a little bit and and so there it's just just just old friend, dearly affectionate for Justin. He's got quite the story to tell. And he is presently the pastor of

Justin Menzies (06:09.619)
It's true. Yes, I did that for the sake of their marriage.

Joshua Hoffert (06:33.834)
first love church in Calgary, Alberta that was formerly Jubilee Christian Center. And it's a pretty wild journey of him. I said to him before we started recording us like if you were to take a poll at about 1718 years old, the least likely people to become a pastor Justin would have topped the list. And and and now it's just such a beautiful thing. Watching him navigate

how to form and shape people and respond to God and love them deeply and walk in community and watch him and his wife do that. We tune into his live streams periodically and I just love how the man unashamedly proclaims who Jesus is and calls people to account and helps them see him and helps them see Jesus in every aspect of life. And so I just thought, hey,

there's a statement that Justin made to me a couple of years back when he when he had become the pastor of the church. And the statement was something to and this is what we're going to talk about. We'll get there. The statement was something to the effect of I feel like I've always tried to run ahead of God and had to learn to slow down. And I'm fine. I'm in the place where it feels like God's running so much faster than I can and I can't keep up anymore. And, and I and I know from experience.

And from talking to many of you, that that the frustration of knowing that there's a gift and a call and a passion and a pursuit, but learning how to respond to the to will use Eugene Peterson's translation, the unhindered rhythm of grace that the Holy Spirit brings into our life, Justin, to me, Justin's a prime example of that. There's many times that we thought he was crazy for what he was doing. And

Justin Menzies (08:23.146)
Hmm.

Justin Menzies (08:26.344)
Yep.

Joshua Hoffert (08:29.172)
and he probably, and, know, there's some of the things you did that you were crazy. And, but all of it, all of it was, I remember John Paul saying one time that, God will never punish zeal. And even if it's, even if it's misappropriated zeal, he won't punish zeal when it's for his kingdom's sake. Right. And

Justin Menzies (08:29.321)
And I thought I was crazy as well. Oh yeah.

Justin Menzies (08:49.447)
Yes, that's why the Lord had me marry a woman known for her wisdom, because that's what I was lacking. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (08:53.984)
That's right. That's a pretty accurate description. And so, so Justin, just maybe tell the voices from the desert listeners, a bit about your heart where you're out where you are, and then we'll dive into to your story and your journey of discovering all those.

Justin Menzies (09:18.461)
Yeah, sure. So it's an honor to be here. yeah, Josh was my roommate, like you said, almost 20 years ago, which is crazy. And what he didn't mention is that he liked it. We were in bunk beds and he was on the top and I was on the bottom and he liked to wake up in the morning and jump onto my bed and flatten me like a pancake. And that's how I woke up. And that was back when I still wasn't brushing my teeth. I was just eating candy canes. So it gives you a good picture. So there was brotherly love there.

Joshua Hoffert (09:35.466)
That's true.

Joshua Hoffert (09:39.902)
Let's I remember that as well. There's many there's the well you like to sleep in. So I was like, Hey, time to wake up. You need an alarm clock. I was your alarm clock. That's right.

Justin Menzies (09:46.921)
It's true. Yeah. Yeah. So I had close encounters with Josh. That was how I woke up. Those are my beginning, the beginning of my days. Yes. So.

Joshua Hoffert (09:54.913)
Yes, that's right. That's right. I mean, technically you learned how to pray because I was waking you up and you were going, God, get this guy off of me. Yeah.

Justin Menzies (10:06.929)
also had to, there was like these slats in between the wood frame where the mattress was and I had to use all my self control not to stab Josh in the night because you taught me self control as well. Yeah. So we grew in love and it was good. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I, I, I came to ministry school, a hot mess. I had given my life to the Lord.

Joshua Hoffert (10:16.544)
That's true. Yeah, that's true. So I taught you self control also. We did. Yeah, that's right.

Justin Menzies (10:34.78)
Well, I hadn't even given him my life. I had cried out to him in July of 2007. We went to ministry school in September of that same year, 2007. And so just a really quick background. I really rebelled against God and against my family, against church, all that stuff at the age of 13. So I lost my virginity when I was 13. I started getting into drugs and alcohol. By the time I was 16, I was doing cocaine and

Joshua Hoffert (10:41.92)
That's right.

Justin Menzies (11:02.312)
drinking a lot and partying a lot, dropped out of school in grade 10. And I chose to live on the street for a while, which was totally by choice. But I left home. And there's a lot of stories I can get into, but I think there's other more important things to talk about. So suffice it to say, I was really, really lost for about a decade. I should have died many times. I was involved in a gang for quite a while. So I got really violent and

It got to the point 2007, was doing cocaine six nights a week and drinking just as much. and so we were, was basically living, living for, for, drugs and alcohol and all that stuff. That's why basically what my life had been reduced to. And so I cried out to God in July of 2007 and I could feel my body was like beginning to shut down. Like I, I actually felt like I, I might die.

if I, if I didn't see significant change, but the harder I tried to change the worse I got. And so I finally got to a place where I was just like, God, if you're real and if you love me, like I've heard some people say you do, then you need to do something because I cannot change. And that was the very first time in my life, I experienced the laughter of God. And it was like, it wasn't audible, but it may as well have been, it was so real. It was like beside me, above me, below me, like in me, it was like,

Joshua Hoffert (11:59.435)
Right.

Justin Menzies (12:21.992)
If joy has a sound, it's the laughter of the Father. And I knew he wasn't laughing at me. I knew he was laughing with joy because I had finally cried out to him. And I had praying parents and they had, I mean, when I went to ministry school, I was getting all these phone calls from people. I had no idea if they'd been praying for me for 10 years. So prayers are powerful. Just gonna say that as a side note, if you...

Joshua Hoffert (12:24.608)
Right. Great way of saying that.

Justin Menzies (12:47.142)
got somebody in your family, a loved one that's not following the Lord, your prayers are powerful and over the process of time, there might come a suddenly in their life where God just breaks through and that's what happened to me. So yeah, so I collapsed, I was landscaping at the time, I was raking gravel on the side of a house and I collapsed, I cried out to God and I didn't know how he was gonna do it, but he was gonna do it. And so I want change, but I don't know how to change. So I did a few rails of cocaine that night. I want God.

Joshua Hoffert (12:57.268)
That's right. That's right.

Justin Menzies (13:16.141)
I just don't know how to get him and he laughed and so he's with me I guess and anyway long story short I end up going to streams ministry that was July I prayed that prayer I went in September and I told the Lord I said when I get to that ministry school I will fully give you my life I will give you all of my life I won't be the captain of my own ship anymore I will give over the reins of my life to you and you can do with me what you will but you have to cut these addictions off because if you do not I will die in them

So in a real true act of full surrender, when I finally got to the ministry school and I did a three day bender before I got there that I don't even remember. I woke up downtown somewhere, but I got to ministry school and I gave the Lord my life the best way that I knew how. And I was, I was like a hundred percent sincere and God met me there. He really did. And he just cut those addictions off. I didn't go through withdrawals. I didn't go to counseling. I didn't go to rehab. It was through a moment of true surrender. And so

Joshua Hoffert (14:08.138)
We did.

Justin Menzies (14:16.016)
That was 2007 and that's kind how my journey with the Lord began.

Joshua Hoffert (14:20.254)
You can imagine, cause what we were probably together for about a month. And, so maybe October, November, and we were each tasked with giving a personal presentation in that, in that first three months or so. So we could, you know, we could all get to know each other. Right. So one evening, the impartation nights is what we called them. Yeah. One evening it was, you know, prepare, prepare, share your life, share your story, share who you are, something along those lines. Right.

Justin Menzies (14:38.158)
That's right. Yeah, the impartation mates.

Justin Menzies (14:49.829)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (14:50.736)
And so when Justin in the first month or two of ministry school together shared that he had a bender for three days and then jumped in his car and came. Everybody was kind of like, what? Wait a second. I think I think the leadership was more like that. And I think all of us were like, yeah, that's Justin more so right. But it was

Justin Menzies (15:17.19)
It's true. Well, and some things made more sense because the Lord spoke to one of the main leaders of the school before I came, because before we came, they had pictures of us and they would be praying for us. And I didn't find this out until later, but the Lord had spoken to one of the main ministry leaders and told her about me. The Lord said, no matter what this man does, you cannot send him home. And I was very thankful for that.

Joshua Hoffert (15:38.112)
That was very smart. That's a word from the Lord.

Justin Menzies (15:43.807)
It wasn't a from the Lord because I should have got sent home many times. Yeah. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (15:47.201)
Many, many times, many times. Yeah. I'm going to tell this story, right? Just, just the one of the things Justin was trying to do in that first few months was kick smoking as a habit. Right. And that was one of the things that lingered for a while, but eventually you overcame it. And, um, I remember when he came back one time and I had smoked a lot when I was younger.

Justin Menzies (16:03.03)
yes, yes right.

Justin Menzies (16:16.463)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (16:16.768)
and had, I had quit early twenties and cleaned my life up, you know, this isn't my story. and, but Justin comes back from the store one day and he goes, Hey guys, there was three or four of us in the house. found cigarettes that have no nicotine in them, right? Herbal cigarettes and the, agreement that we had all signed.

Justin Menzies (16:36.707)
Yeah, herbal. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (16:42.41)
to be part of this community was that we wouldn't consume any nicotine based products. Justin went, look, they're not nicotine. They're herbal cigarettes. So we can smoke these. And he said, and he said to the three of us there, let's go smoke a cigarette together. So we went out back and we're like, yeah, then we ran out back and we're like, I think this is okay. You know, and keep in mind we're, know,

Justin Menzies (16:55.575)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (16:59.813)
It was like smoking, was like smoking rolled up hay.

Joshua Hoffert (17:11.73)
early to mid twenties wrestling with everything and trying to figure it all out going, look, we're supporting Justin. It's okay. Right. It's just anyway, one of the leaders walked into the house and walked into the back and saw the king out back going, what are you guys doing? It's okay. There's no nicotine in them.

Justin Menzies (17:20.087)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (17:26.308)
You

Like, Justin!

yes, the ministry days. We did. We did. I had a lot of time in the office.

Joshua Hoffert (17:38.932)
we all got, we all got in trouble. Yeah. Rightfully so, you know, like it's the, it's where that's right. And that's where we learned a very valuable interpretation of Paul's words. It's the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law.

Justin Menzies (17:56.373)
That's right. We learned many things in those days.

Joshua Hoffert (17:59.925)
I remember sitting down on that one. I remember sitting down that one. And one of the leaders went, you know, that wasn't okay. Right. I was like, yeah, I know. Yes, that's right. Yeah. It was, yeah. There was a look we've come a long way. Okay. Right. That was, that was almost 20 years ago. Yeah. By the grace of God. Yeah. Yeah. So Justin, what was the, here's a question. What was the, can you point to a moment or at least a timeframe where you went?

Justin Menzies (18:06.776)
Right, yeah. man.

Come a long way by the grace of God. Yeah. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (18:29.224)
I think there's a call on my life to accomplish something. Like, was there a moment, was that before that after that? What, like, what, what kind of a rose are awoken in you? When I think there's a call on my

Justin Menzies (18:41.934)
Well, my biggest transformation came from, like I learned a lot of amazing things about God in ministry school, but I got to know God in my bedroom. And that's what began to shift and change everything. And I began to realize I was created for a purpose and the Lord had mercy on my life. Like I should have been dead many times. I got all kinds of stories, but I could go off on that I won't, but I should have died many times. And so there was just amazing mercy.

Joshua Hoffert (18:51.312)
Mm. Right.

Justin Menzies (19:08.568)
that the Lord had had on me. so, and then we're also in ministry school, it's John Paul Jackson's ministry school. So obviously we're also getting a lot of prophetic words. And so, you know, people are speaking different things into my life as they did into your life. And so I'd never had that before. So I'm just like, okay. And so I just began to realize that I was alive for something so much bigger than myself and that the Lord wanted to use me in certain ways to bring his kingdom.

Joshua Hoffert (19:21.172)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Justin Menzies (19:37.476)
but what I didn't realize is that before the Lord could bring his kingdom through me, he had to bring it to me and that's where There was a lot of things in me my belief system my attitudes my perspectives my mindsets there was a lot of things in me that I had no idea did not line up with truth and There was pride there was false humility. There was I mean all kinds of stuff and so yeah, I began to to realize that the Lord had

Joshua Hoffert (19:57.226)
Right.

Justin Menzies (20:06.499)
things for me to do that I wasn't just living for me. I didn't know if that was going to be ministry or not like an as vocational ministry. But I know that every single believer is called to ministry, whether it's vocational or whether it's your workplace or your family. We all have the ministry of Corinthians 518, the ministry of reconciliation. And so so for me, it wasn't like about trying to fit that into a box. I was very open and I didn't really know what it was going to look like.

Joshua Hoffert (20:12.618)
Sure.

Joshua Hoffert (20:18.762)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Hoffert (20:25.236)
That's right. That's right.

Justin Menzies (20:35.126)
And so, yeah, so that was kind of a journey of realizing that man, I read John 17 three, which is the definition of eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God in Jesus Christ whom you have sent. And so I realized, wait a minute, so eternal life's not saying a prayer to go to heaven. It's knowing God, like it's knowing him and the word know there's genusco to know like a man knows his wife. And I'm like, wow, okay, so this is like intimate fellowship.

Joshua Hoffert (20:47.689)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (20:55.784)
Right, right.

Joshua Hoffert (21:01.086)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (21:03.687)
And so my life, it was much more about walking with Jesus and loving him with all of my heart than it was about the things I would do for him. But it took a long time to work these things out in my heart and in my understanding. And, know, as you can imagine, I was, I was a mess on my insides. You know, there's a reason I checked the rejection book across the room is because I had a lot of rejection issues that I had no idea.

Joshua Hoffert (21:18.302)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (21:23.744)
Right.

Justin Menzies (21:30.487)
So God had to confront me with these things and I was pretty side-swiped to see how he would do it and the way he would do it and the time that it would take. So I mean, I don't know if you wanna dive into that right now or not, but yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (21:43.977)
Yeah, well, I think I think there's just two things I want to one I just want to say and then a question is the first is when you when we first met, because it was like you coming online at that point, and recognizing you started studying a lot, you started reading a lot. And you're like, like

I think you probably would have been categorized. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but you weren't exactly a grade a student in school. yes. And, and it was at, well, that's what I mean. It was evident because you, there were words that you would, you would, you would mispronounce misspell. You were spelled. I remember looking at your notes one time and you were spelling the name John wrong. Like, you know,

Justin Menzies (22:21.0)
no, not at all. I dropped out in grade 10. Yeah. But the word came alive to me.

Justin Menzies (22:35.74)
yeah.

Justin Menzies (22:40.78)
yeah, I did. man, it's Chad. I mean, how many times did I have to ask you, Josh, what does this word mean? I don't know what this word's mean. You know, you're my translator.

Joshua Hoffert (22:44.042)
So.

Yeah, exactly. But my, my point in that, yeah, I was the translator, right? But the, point of that was you coming online, like, like the, word says that the Holy Spirit will teach us and lead us and guide us into all truth. Right. And like you're to me, you're a Testament of that happening because you, you were not an apt student. And, but when you learned who he was, your Intel, the level of intelligence that came online in you.

Nobody, nobody thought that was there in your earlier life, right? Nobody thought that was there. And then it was like, this guy's actually quite brilliant. And he was never given a chance to express it, but the Holy spirit brought it right to the forefront. And, and you would spend hours just sitting in front of the word, studying it and studying it, studying it, studying it, studying it, writing and writing and writing and writing.

Justin Menzies (23:18.111)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Justin Menzies (23:29.705)
Yeah, yes, so

man, I loved it.

Yeah, yeah, I remember going into the bedroom and saying, Lord, like this book's really thick. I don't know how to find you in here. I'm just going to start in the middle and you need to show yourself to me. So I started by pouring over the Psalms. And that's when I was just like, I had this like light bulb moment of like, God, have you been this amazing this whole time? Like, like you are, I was in awe of God as I was going over the Psalms. It was becoming like alive to me. And so that was really beautiful and really powerful. But I did have a moment.

Joshua Hoffert (23:39.829)
Go.

Joshua Hoffert (23:47.445)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (23:51.552)
Okay.

Joshua Hoffert (23:56.478)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (24:03.615)
Right.

Justin Menzies (24:07.583)
where I, in my time with the Lord one day, I felt my brain like almost like tingling. And I had never experienced that before in that kind of way. And I don't mean to sound weird or anything, but I literally felt like the Lord told me that he was healing brain cells because I had done so much damage through all the drugs and the drinking. And I do feel like the Lord actually healed my brain because it was damaged. And I'm super thankful for that.

Joshua Hoffert (24:22.005)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (24:25.717)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (24:33.44)
It was evident watching, watching how much you changed and transformed in those first couple of years and how well how you articulated things and, and, um, it was like, you know, it wasn't like I remember the one of the words we used to joke about us, loquacious and, uh, look, you talk about the locutions, right? But it was like, you know, right. And we were just, anyway, it was just, that's an inner, that's an inside joke. Yeah. Yeah.

Justin Menzies (24:54.977)
yeah, right.

Justin Menzies (24:59.005)
Sometimes those things still slip. I still say something. Yeah. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (25:03.328)
Yeah, well, my point is that it wasn't like learning, learning new vocabulary for you wasn't like, it was just like, that's what that word means. I didn't know that now I know it. Right. It was, it just, it, because you, that intelligence came online with the Holy Spirit. was like, you just so you were so apt to pick things up so quickly. And it's, don't I'm thinking just how much time lost with

Justin Menzies (25:26.464)
Mm.

Joshua Hoffert (25:31.466)
drugs and alcohol and just not caring at all. And then within a couple short years, that had totally reversed and the Lord had healed so much. It's just a fascinating thing to think about how God does that. I think that if you have something you want to say to that or Yeah, yeah, he does. The Bible says that right? Yeah. The the question I think just in terms of calling coming online in that time of your life too, is

Justin Menzies (25:34.997)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (25:39.146)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (25:42.942)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (25:46.824)
I just wanted to say he redeems the time. He really redeemed so much for me.

Joshua Hoffert (26:01.975)
Did you, why do you think, and, and, you know, maybe you've thought about it, maybe you haven't, why do you think up until that point, even growing up with a praying family, right? Why do you think, what is it that kept you from seeing yourself as significant before that moment? Was it, was it, you know, family dynamics? Was it friendships? Do you know, like, could you point to anything and go, this was never fostered or, you know,

Justin Menzies (26:31.334)
Yeah, so the reason I rebelled is because I began to despise my father. I have an amazing mom and dad. We have a fantastic relationship now. But back then, his truck would pull. Yeah, yeah. So his truck would pull up when he got home when I was a kid and I would just get instantly depressed. Like I did not like my dad at all. And so I felt like he had a certain standard that I could never live up to.

Joshua Hoffert (26:38.981)
Okay, right. Yeah. I've met them both many times. They're awesome. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (26:53.183)
Okay.

Justin Menzies (26:58.928)
and he always had us working, he always had us doing stuff, so I felt more like a slave than a son. And I reached a point where I was like, I can never be who you want me to be, so I'll just become everything you hate. And so that was really what drove me down that path was a lot of bitterness, a lot of hatred, unforgiveness, and not having a clue who I was. So I was like, I'll go find myself in the world, and I'll just become as bad as I possibly can. And so that's what

Joshua Hoffert (27:00.671)
Hmm.

Joshua Hoffert (27:12.297)
right?

Joshua Hoffert (27:18.559)
Sure.

Joshua Hoffert (27:24.244)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (27:29.383)
That's what took me down that road, which is why three years into my marriage, the Lord actually brought me back to my father's house. We had to live in their basement. And I didn't realize, and I thought we were gonna be there for two weeks and we were there for 25 months, not that I was counting. that was where the Lord brought me back to my father's house to deal with all my issues. And that's a whole story in itself, but I ended.

Joshua Hoffert (27:32.797)
Right, okay, yep.

Joshua Hoffert (27:41.199)
that's right.

Joshua Hoffert (27:56.9)
wow.

Justin Menzies (27:58.216)
Ended that time there because God when I first went there God spoke to me out of Deuteronomy 8 and he said I have brought you into the wilderness to humble you and to test you and to find out what's in your heart and I was like, well that sounds intense and so Everything like in my life began to fall apart except my marriage And and that's where we went into a very long wilderness season

But it was at the end of that season that that the Lord dealt with all of these things in my heart during that season but at the end I had an incredible moment of reconciliation with my father where we both wept and repented to each other and I mean they're they're pillars in our church. They're they're some of the first people I call when I need prayer. So God's brought so much redemption, but that's kind of one of the things that that I I chose to go down that path when I was a kid.

because of all of that brokenness that was going on. And that was my own choice. That wasn't my dad's fault. It was what I chose. But it was kind of the thing that launched me down that path, if you will.

Joshua Hoffert (29:04.477)
Right. Right. Well, talk, maybe talk a little bit about the, the will that going through that wilderness and how the father, how the father challenged and shaped you. And cause that, you know, that's the, the, the, the, the distinction between right when we were, when, when we were training, we learned about the, calling phase and the training phase and the commissioning phase, right? How the training lasts a lifetime and he's always working things out of us, but

Justin Menzies (29:15.72)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (29:33.745)
know that intense period of 25 months where the father challenged how what your belief what was that like

Justin Menzies (29:41.094)
Well, it was horrible. I mean, I look back on it now with great fondness because of what the father did, but during it felt like we were going through hell. And so everything was falling apart. actually started, what kicked it off was we were attending a church. So me and my wife got married in 2010. I started my own, an electrician, I'm a journeyman electrician. I started my own company in 2011.

Joshua Hoffert (29:44.99)
Hahaha

Joshua Hoffert (29:51.177)
Totally.

Justin Menzies (30:09.471)
We start going to a church and we go this one night to one of the small groups and the leader of the small group was sharing about his life and God just opened up prophetically. Well, my the prophetic gift that God has given me opened up prophetically. I knew exactly what was going on in his life. I knew what the Lord was doing. I knew what the Lord wanted to do next in his life and why things were happening and I was waiting for him to stop talking so that I could share that prophetic insight with him.

Joshua Hoffert (30:29.459)
Mm-hmm.

Justin Menzies (30:38.014)
So he's going on and he's about to finish and I'm about to get ready to share what's happening prophetically with him. And I felt like the Holy Spirit just spoke so directly to my heart. And he said, I don't want you to give him that prophetic word. And I was just like, really? I was like, well, then why did you give it to me? And I felt like the Lord said, your prophetic gifting picked up this word. But he said, but you don't want to share that word because you love him.

you want to share that word because you want to look spiritual in front of all these other people. And I was just like, no, are you sure? Like you don't know your own heart, right? You don't know, but the Lord knows. And so as I'm pondering this and just been like, like kind of flabbergasted by it, my wife speaks up and she shares the exact same word that I was going to give, even using like the same, like, like terminology. And the Lord like spoke to me and said, son, I can use anyone I'm looking for.

pure hearts. And I realized that the motive in my heart for why I was doing things was totally sideways. And it wasn't coming from love. wasn't coming from identity. was coming from a place of trying to find love and trying to find identity instead of that already being settled in Christ. So that was where things started. We ended up losing our house. We had to move to our parents, my parents basement.

All of my work, the year before I had the best year of my life. Like we, had made more money in that year than I'd ever made my life. And the company was doing really well. And then the second year, I could not get a job if my life depended on it, like not even a service call. And that's when I had cried out to the Lord and the Lord responded by speaking to you to honor me eight that I've called you into the wilderness to humble you and to test you and to find out what's in your heart. And the Lord said, you will not have work in this season because I have put up walls.

And I said, well, Lord, that violates my theology. And so, I was raised, don't work, you don't eat. And so the Lord said normally, he does, he does. And the Lord said, normally that's true, but I have brought you into a season where you will not have any work.

Joshua Hoffert (32:39.935)
EW

Right. He likes, he likes violating our theology.

Yeah.

Justin Menzies (32:54.245)
And he reminded me of the refiner of silver in Malachi, that the Lord sits as a refiner of silver and he puts that silver into the fire and it burns the dross to the surface, right? And then the refiner scrapes the dross off and throws it back in the fire. And we're like, no Lord, not the fire again. And so it was this, this season where everything was, was stripped from me and I wasn't able to do anything. It's, it's, there's a lot of stories within there, but what ended up happening was I, for a season I went

Joshua Hoffert (33:22.771)
You know, just a side note, a side note. want to hear that. Justin, just, I just want to throw one thing in there. I want to hear the rest of it. Do you know that when they know when silver is refined, when it's perfectly reflective? Did you know then? Yeah. When they could see their own image reflected back to them, all the dross has been taken out. That's fascinating. Yeah.

Justin Menzies (33:36.933)
Yes, they can see their own image reflected back to them afterwards, right?

Justin Menzies (33:45.103)
Yes, it is fascinating and I was very drossy. So there was a lot of stuff God was, yeah. I was, yeah, no, it's powerful. It's powerful because that's what it's all about. It's about the image, right? That God is restoring that we're no longer sons and daughters of Adam, we're sons and daughters of God and that is to look like something. And so,

Joshua Hoffert (33:49.863)
Yeah, we all were. I'm yeah. Yeah. Just just yeah. Yeah. Go ahead.

Joshua Hoffert (34:06.697)
That's right.

Justin Menzies (34:09.71)
So I relapsed in this season. I was stressed out. I felt like God abandoned me. So I started drinking again. And I hadn't, like, I had been, I still drank here and there, but it got even worse when I was on the street. I didn't go back to all the drugs, but I did go back to drinking. And I mean, it was bad. Like I would be at the liquor store at 10 in the morning. And I was just broken and lost and so, and I was, I started chains, I was chain smoking.

Joshua Hoffert (34:26.578)
Okay.

Joshua Hoffert (34:33.957)
Okay, right.

Justin Menzies (34:38.554)
And I just felt like, like I was so mad at God because I was just like, Lord, you knew that bringing me into this season, I would go to all of these things. You knew that this would happen. Like, why are you like trying to destroy my life? Like, where are you in this? Like I was so broken. I remember sitting in my truck and my parents driveway and don't worry, I wasn't driving, but I was, I was drunk and I was chain smoking. And I just like started weeping before the Lord in this place of like just.

Joshua Hoffert (34:55.101)
Right.

Justin Menzies (35:07.29)
desperation and brokenness. And I just said, God, would you deliver me? Would you deliver me from this alcohol? Like I thought I was free from this stuff. Would you deliver me? And I didn't know how, but I knew that God was going to cut this thing out of my life. And the Lord said, he said to me, son, he said, your drinking is not a problem. And I said, really? Well, it tastes like a problem. It feels like a problem. And the guy at the liquor store also thinks it's a problem because I'm there at 10 in the morning.

Joshua Hoffert (35:29.842)
Hahaha

Justin Menzies (35:37.305)
So we got, we got problems. There's a whole crew of people that go at 10 a.m. and I was part of them. We like knew each other. So just broken this man. It's sad. But the Lord said, no, your drinking is not a problem. He said, it's, and he showed me this picture of a tree and, and it had the really bad fruit growing on this tree and it had like addiction and alcohol. And I, he like zoomed out and I could see the picture of the roots. And he said that your drinking is just fruit of a sick tree.

Joshua Hoffert (35:42.452)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (35:46.271)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (36:05.467)
The problem is the root. The real issue is what is driving you to drink. And so no, your drinking's not a problem. It's your heart that's the problem. And that is why I have brought you into the wilderness to show you that this has actually been in your heart this whole time. And unless I brought you into the season, you would have never known that. But I am causing the fire to burn this dross to the surface. And so I was just like, whoa. So, uh,

Joshua Hoffert (36:06.708)
Wow.

Joshua Hoffert (36:27.06)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (36:34.618)
I didn't know how God was going to do it, but he was going to do it. So this is, keep in mind, this is two years, it's 25 months. So there's this process, but the Lord gave me a dream. And I'll just say what the dream meant just for the sake of time. The Lord highlighted three issues in my heart. And he said, you are not leaving this house until you've dealt with all three of these issues. And one was spiritual pride. The other was an orphan heart. And the third one was rejection.

Joshua Hoffert (37:02.207)
And it comes full circle.

Justin Menzies (37:03.194)
So it comes full circle. not only had had I rejected myself, but I also felt like God had rejected me. And so that just left me to self-medicate in my own strength, going back to my little G gods that I used to put my trust in. And God is confronting all of this because he's an incredible father and he does not sacrifice his children to build his kingdom. So

I could have gone out and done amazing ministry things. had prophetic gifting. I knew the word really well. I was able to teach things and God wouldn't let me use any of it. So I could have blessed a lot of people on the surface, but inside it would have been coming from the entirely wrong motive and God would not sacrifice me to build his kingdom. So as a good father, he took me secretly into the wilderness to deal with me.

And I mean, it was a very dark time in my life, but I also had very sweet fellowship with the Lord, where I just knew his presence and I knew that he wasn't giving up on me. So the wilderness was a crucial time in our lives. And the Lord also tested us as well, because when we got out of the wilderness and we moved into a house,

Joshua Hoffert (38:01.651)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (38:26.136)
We had people come into our lives and they asked us, said, Hey, we're doing a church plant in a town or not a town, an area of Calgary. And they said, would you guys be the senior pastors? Now for me, I was like, my goodness, like finally we've gone through this, this, this two years of hell. The Lord's delivered me from certain things. And, and now we're finally like, we're, think we're ready for ministry. Maybe I'm supposed to lay down my company now and maybe we were supposed to get into ministry.

And so when they asked us this, I thought it was a no brainer. I was like, well, of course, this is God's call in our life. Of course we're going to do this. And my wife, who is the voice of wisdom, she said, she's like, hon, we can't, like, we need to pray about this and ask the Lord. Like, let's like, we should probably ask the Lord. And I was like, well, of course it's the Lord, but okay, I'll humor my wife. I was like, yeah, okay, let's pray. So we pray and the Lord's like, And the Lord's like, I'm not in it.

Joshua Hoffert (38:55.166)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (39:10.367)
Let's bless Tamara. God bless Tamara.

Yeah.

Justin Menzies (39:22.65)
And I was like, no, I was so like upset. I was like, no way, God. I was like, what do mean you're not in it? Like, like, then why do we know all this stuff? And why have you taught us all these things? And what is this all for? If it's not to be used? But the Lord was very clear. He just said, no. So in an act of faith, I just, laid it down and we, called the people and I said, you know, guys were very humbled by your offer, like bless you. But we really feel like God has said no.

Joshua Hoffert (39:41.629)
Right.

Justin Menzies (39:50.401)
And so that's where like, this is where I'm, I'm feeling like I'm supposed to be running. feel like I'm a horse. That's a race horse that's in the stall before they open the gates and let you go. I feel like I'm just like chomping at the bit. Like I'm, I'm ready to go Lord. And he will not let me go. And so I have to stay where the spirit is. I have to stay where the Lord is and be obedient. even though it looked like there was doors that were opening. is why I don't follow doors, doors, door, that whole language, like.

Well, this door opened up here, that door opened up there. I don't follow that stuff because I want to follow his spirit because the enemy is also able to open doors and sometimes God will also test you through open doors. So I think it's important that we are led by the spirit, not by doors. That's just a side note. So anyway, I,

Joshua Hoffert (40:24.447)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (40:32.031)
That's right.

Joshua Hoffert (40:37.149)
Yeah, well, that and that's, I mean, that's Paul in the missionary journeys, right? We felt like we were supposed to go here, but the spirit blocked us from going there, right. And it was like, the doors opening. actually, no, we need to be more sensitive to where he's taking us. That's absolutely right. Yeah.

Justin Menzies (40:40.803)
Yes.

Justin Menzies (40:44.301)
That's right.

Justin Menzies (40:50.516)
Yeah, yeah. So we turned it down and after we turned it down three months later, the whole thing fell apart and never would have even happened. And the Lord spoke to me and said, I was testing you to see if you would go ahead of me or not. And he said, you passed. I was like, oh, thank you, God. I said, following you is like wild. Doing drugs and drinking was so much easier. But this is also so much more life-giving. He is, yeah, he is. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (41:04.531)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (41:09.887)
Well, and in a way, he's protecting your heart too. Right? He's protecting your heart too. He's testing your heart. There's also the element of protecting your heart from the eventual fallout and the potential bitterness that results stirs up rejection all over again. And he's like, I'm, testing your willingness to follow me. And I'm also protecting your heart because I'm more concerned. Like my wife would say, he's more concerned about your eternal destiny than anything else.

Justin Menzies (41:24.449)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Justin Menzies (41:32.522)
Yes.

Justin Menzies (41:38.028)
That's right. Yeah. That's right. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (41:38.744)
And, I think that's absolutely true. He's, and as a loving father would, right? I want to know what's with, I want, and it's not that he's testing because he needs to know what's in your heart. He's testing because you need to know what's in your heart, right? It's not a mystery to him. I thought about this this morning, actually, where in Psalm 139, it says, you understand my thought from afar off. And I thought that's interesting, right? It's not that he just knows the thought from afar off.

Justin Menzies (41:49.922)
Yeah. Yeah.

Justin Menzies (42:02.008)
Hmm.

Justin Menzies (42:06.349)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (42:06.503)
is that he understands it. He knows the origin, the source, the why the when the where the what he understands why the thought comes. He gets everything about you, not just knows you but understands you. That's a different thing, right? I can say I know Justin because I've listened to his sermons. I can say I know my wife because because I went on a date with her, right? But do I understand who the person is? Do I get them? Right? If someone says, What is your wife like?

Justin Menzies (42:32.375)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (42:36.423)
Right? I can say, I can tell you her schedule when she wakes up and what kind of coffee and all that stuff. Right. But do I understand if someone it's right, it is important for Aaron, but when someone asks you, what do they like to do for fun? Right. That tells you that you understand the person. If you can answer that question. I've been thinking about that. Right. Or what, you know, what kind of gift would they like? Right. My, was just Aaron's birthday. And, you know, sometimes that's the hardest thing to do to find something for your spouse.

Justin Menzies (42:42.208)
Yes, coffee is important for Aaron.

Justin Menzies (42:54.072)
True. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (43:05.171)
that they'd appreciate that, that you would get them for a birthday or Christmas present. got Erin a record player, right? And, and she was over the moon ecstatic about it. And then we started, I started talking and the kids were part of the process of getting it for her and picked out records for her and all this kind of stuff, right? So we just gave it to her a couple days ago and she's she's I think she's out right now. Bargain bin shopping for new new vinyls. And, but but

Justin Menzies (43:13.09)
Nice.

Justin Menzies (43:30.366)
That's fun.

Joshua Hoffert (43:33.397)
But I was talking with her afterwards and I said, you know, I was looking at this and looking at this one. And she goes, I've been looking for record players to your dad gave me some birthday money. I was thinking of buying one, but I couldn't afford it. And she went, I looked at that one too. I looked at that one too, but I thought, I all the reviews I saw. They said this and this. And I said, yeah, I saw that too. Right. And then, and then, the one I got her was the one she'd been looking at the one she wanted. Right. We hadn't talked about it at all. Okay. I just knew that she had talked.

Justin Menzies (43:59.242)
Okay. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (44:03.06)
She'd mentioned it in the past about the record player. Then I'm going, like we were totally on the same page because we have a union, we have a marriage and I understand her. And so what I ended up getting her was the exact same thing. was the exact thing she wanted. Right. That's very different than just knowing someone he understands. So he both protected you, tested you and preserved you. And he's, he's functioning on that wavelength all the time with all of us. Right.

Justin Menzies (44:04.856)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (44:13.207)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (44:21.45)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Justin Menzies (44:32.243)
yeah. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (44:33.336)
And, you know, I want to say that too, because I want to get it at people who hear the language he's testing me to think, cause cause sometimes what people think is, God's like, he's, he's, he's kind of this severe God who's always looking for, all of our faults and trying to expose them so that, so that we can finally eventually become pure and holy. Right.

When it's actually, he's a loving father and he's teasing out the best in us so that we can become the image that he's always seen in us. And I don't know what's in me until he exposes it. And it's not so that I can finally find this caustic righteousness because it's like when I think of the Beatitudes, right? It says that, blessed of those who are pure at heart for they shall see God. Right. But, but you, but the first, thing that comes right before that.

Justin Menzies (45:25.908)
Yes.

Joshua Hoffert (45:30.14)
is blessed are those who are merciful. So I can't get to purity until I see tenderness. I can't get there. I have to see tenderness first and then I can see pure because if I don't see tenderness first, I will find caustic purity and prove to everybody that I'm more holy and righteous than them. But if I see tenderness first, then the purity becomes part of the softness of God and my heart soft. And now I'm hungering and thirsting for righteousness because I have tenderness in my life, right?

Justin Menzies (45:32.522)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (45:36.17)
Yeah, that's good.

Justin Menzies (45:41.782)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (45:46.591)
Yes, yes.

Justin Menzies (45:52.352)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (45:56.085)
Yeah. Amen.

Joshua Hoffert (45:58.763)
totally changes the way that I see him dealing with me versus, I'm trying to expose everything because you're not perfect yet. And I need to make you perfect. No, really, you know, he's trying to make you whole. And, and, right. And so I just want to point that out, because I know that's in your heart. But I also know people will hear that. he's Yeah, he tests us all the time. And he's always exposing the wickedness in our heart. Yeah, kind of, you know, that's true on one level.

Justin Menzies (46:01.835)
Mm-hmm.

Justin Menzies (46:07.818)
Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly it. Yeah, that's exactly it.

Justin Menzies (46:26.826)
Well, it's like Job where he said, when he has tested me, I shall come forth like gold. And that's what the unto is. It's not to shame you or condemn you or see how much you can bear before you collapse and curse his name. That's not at all what he's doing. He's a good father who's leading you through the issues of the heart that we don't know are there.

Joshua Hoffert (46:34.419)
Yeah, that's right.

Joshua Hoffert (46:43.04)
That's right. Yeah, that's right.

Justin Menzies (46:49.734)
But but he does and that's why David's like search me and know me and show me if there's any wicked way within me Like I don't know God is there show me and so that's what the Lord was really doing with me and he highlighted this even further when he told me to read I think was first Corinthians 3 Where he was really going after understand the motive of heart where he's like, you know Some are gonna build with wood hay and stubble and some are gonna build with gold silver precious stones But the fire of that day capital D day the judgment they were all before him

Joshua Hoffert (46:49.918)
Yeah, that's right.

Joshua Hoffert (46:58.783)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (47:07.05)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (47:19.328)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (47:19.53)
The fire will reveal of what material you actually built with on the earth. There's no other foundation that can be laid, which is Christ Jesus, but what are we building on top of that? What's the motive of our heart? And the Lord really opened the scripture up to me in this time after I had turned down the pastoring. And the Lord brought, I asked them to show me what the scripture meant and he brought back two memories. And he said, son, do you remember when you were gonna give that prophetic word? And I told you that you,

Joshua Hoffert (47:24.672)
Sure, exactly.

Justin Menzies (47:46.965)
We're only giving that because you wanted to look spiritual in front of these other people. And I was like, yeah. And he said, okay, so if you would, if you would have disobeyed me and if you would have given that word, it would have looked like gold to everybody in that room. They would have all been like, cause it was an accurate word. wasn't that the word was wrong. It was just coming from a wrong motive. And so it would have looked like gold to that whole room. But on that day, my fire would have revealed that that word was, was straw and it would have got burned up and meant nothing.

Joshua Hoffert (48:05.683)
Right.

Justin Menzies (48:17.245)
because it was coming from the wrong motive. And then he brought back another memory of when I was drunk in the truck and chain smoking and crying out to him to deliver me. And he said, if another Christian were to walk up to you in that moment and you rolled down that window and a puff of smoke came out, they would have seen your life as wood, hay and stubble. And you would have just looked like a backslidden Christian to them. But on that day, I heard the cry of your heart. And that cry came up like gold before me.

Joshua Hoffert (48:24.479)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (48:42.4)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (48:45.297)
And so the Lord was beginning to show me the difference of how he sees things and how man sees things. And his, his priorities are so much different than ours. He is all about the heart. And so he was teaching me about the motive of my heart. And he was bringing a lot of healing to my identity because if I would have become a pastor back then, I would have been a train wreck and I would have heard a lot of people and it would have been bad because it would have been my own doing.

Joshua Hoffert (48:51.391)
Right. Right.

Joshua Hoffert (48:57.984)
That's right.

Justin Menzies (49:13.557)
instead of his timing and his leading. So there was a lot of stuff that came through those really hard months. And it's not like life has gotten easier. It's just, there's just been a settled-ness. And the last part maybe that I'll share that I think was profound for me was when I was living in my parents' basement and I was going through, I needed hope. I was just like, Lord, I just feel like every day is just getting worse. And I just need, I need you.

And the Lord, I've never heard about this before except when I read it in Samuel, but the Lord said, I'm going to prophesy over you for three days by giving you a different heart. And I was just like, when I hear that kind of stuff, I'm always like, where's this in the word? I wanna make sure this is the Lord. And the Lord showed me where he changed the heart of Saul into the heart of another man.

Joshua Hoffert (50:03.538)
Yeah, of course.

Justin Menzies (50:08.518)
And so the Lord changed my heart. kid you not, I kid you not. It was one of the most wild experiences I've had. I woke up in the morning and my heart was, it was, was unrecognizable to me. I was full of peace. I was full of joy and my wife could have cheated on me and, and I would have still been okay because I knew how loved I was by the father. My family could have for, stuck me. I could have been punched in the face. I can't tell you.

Joshua Hoffert (50:23.358)
Wow.

Joshua Hoffert (50:33.918)
Right.

Justin Menzies (50:38.106)
the, the untouchableness of my heart, not in an arrogant way in a realizing how tucked into the father I really was like, like, like all you could, all of hell could throw. What's worst at you. I am, you can't, my peace is not for sale. I cannot not be peaceful. And I live, I kid you not, Josh, I just went on for three days where I wasn't moved by anything. I wasn't upset by anything. I was completely full of peace.

Joshua Hoffert (50:55.839)
Right. Right.

Justin Menzies (51:06.835)
full of joy and I knew that I was a son of the Most High God and I was loved and He was for me and I was a disciple of His. I'm not a disciple of life so life isn't teaching me who God is. The Father is showing me who He is and the life lived of Christ is showing me who He is. So I'm ridiculously loved.

Joshua Hoffert (51:26.087)
I, I, and I'm, just going to underscore that with a short, a short aside story. so people understand that the distinction that you're making, right? when, when we were interning together, there was a, there's, one of the stories that we remember about Justin, Justin was in our garage with the lights off and he was listening to worship music and praying.

Justin Menzies (51:52.588)
yes.

Joshua Hoffert (51:56.608)
Okay. So, you know, conceivably in a peaceful place. Cause Justin, Justin was a very reactive person. Right. And he no longer is, but he was, and, one of the interns, a, very soft, tender man named Cameron came into the garage. Cause there was some workout equipment there and he was going to do some exercises. So he opened the door, which startled Justin. so Justin.

Justin Menzies (52:02.909)
Yes.

Joshua Hoffert (52:26.251)
swung at him and punched him, I think right in the stomach. Is that correct? Yes. Like, like, but, but that was so Justin's praying in that place of peace and still reactive. So for him to say everything changed and anything could happen to me and I wouldn't have reacted was radically different than what he, who he had learned to be. Right. So I'm just, I'm just sharing that to say, this is actually quite a big deal.

Justin Menzies (52:29.316)
yeah. Yeah, I hit him good.

Justin Menzies (52:38.477)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (52:48.08)
Yeah. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (52:54.877)
because even the minute things like that, what you were reactive to, and it was kind of fun to poke it at you sometimes, you know, and, you know, as long as you remember you stabbed someone in the, in the, in the hand with a pencil, cause he woke you up and startled you. And, and now people understanding why I liked jumping on you in the bed because you didn't have any weapons on you and you could, it was a bit safer, right? But

Justin Menzies (52:58.545)
Yeah.

yeah, for sure, you always get a reaction.

Justin Menzies (53:06.802)
that was the director's son.

Justin Menzies (53:11.59)
Josiah. Yep.

Justin Menzies (53:16.626)
Yeah, you're safe. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (53:23.091)
But that's a, that's a pretty radical transformation. So what I, what I'm curious.

Justin Menzies (53:26.034)
And it was only for three days. And then after three days, I went back to before and I was like miserable afterwards. I was like, Lord, why did you take it away? But it was the Lord prophesying over me. This is the heart I purchased for you. Keep following me and allow me to work these things out of your life. And this is the place I've called you to live from.

Joshua Hoffert (53:38.473)
Yeah, that's right.

Joshua Hoffert (53:45.162)
That's right. And he, he so does that, right? He gives us a foretaste to in a way to inspire us even further on. This is who I am in you just keep following me and this is what's developing in you. Right. But if you never had to fight for it, like, and especially as men, right? If I never had to fight for it, right. That we could have a whole nother, a whole nother podcast talking about you fighting for your wife and the process of going through that. Right. But, but the thing you fight for you value so much more because

Justin Menzies (53:48.999)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (53:56.539)
Yes, yeah.

Justin Menzies (54:02.385)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (54:09.351)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (54:13.373)
you earn the reward and it's so worth it. And especially when it's my own heart, and I have to fight for that place in the Lord. Like when I actually acquire it, it's so valuable and precious to me, because of the journey of acquiring it in the first place, right? If it just comes to me, it's easy to discard it. Right? It's like, it's like, I just I don't understand its value that happens all the times with what's happened all the time with presence I've given the kids when they're young.

Justin Menzies (54:15.856)
That's right.

Justin Menzies (54:20.294)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (54:25.541)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (54:31.963)
Mm-hmm.

Justin Menzies (54:40.346)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (54:41.279)
Right? I have a 12 year old, 10 year old and seven year old. And when you give them the present, when they're young, they don't know how to value it. And it could be a really nice thing that you've given. And then they break it. And, and then I'm more disappointed than they are that they broke it because they don't understand the value of it. And, but when you have to fight and struggle for it, you go, Oh, I get how valuable that thing is. I so long for it and desire it. And I'll cherish it. Every time it's here. I cherish it. Right. And I think that's why he does that. Right.

Justin Menzies (54:50.566)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (54:54.169)
Yeah, true. Yeah.

Justin Menzies (55:01.52)
Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. 100 % and that's it kind of led to for me it led to the final straw that broke the camel's back in like the best way of these issues in me where the Lord spoke to me and said, and this was kind of like he had primed my heart for years to be able to hear this come out of his mouth. But he said, Son, you are not significant because of what you do for me. You are significant because of what I have done for you.

Joshua Hoffert (55:35.431)
Right, right.

Justin Menzies (55:35.48)
And that like just blew my mind and it was the capstone of the season of like what God was establishing in me through the wilderness. And it was like, finally was like, wow, I never have to, I never have to minister to somebody. If for the rest of my days, I could, I could just live in like a hut somewhere and never do anything and know that I am totally loved and accepted by God. I don't need to prove myself. I don't need to try to earn anything.

Joshua Hoffert (55:44.327)
Yeah, yeah.

Justin Menzies (56:03.951)
I don't need to go out and have a platform and be seen by anybody. I was finally free from me. And it was like, that's when God like put the capstone of his work on my heart. Not that I've arrived by any means, of course, I'm still have so much stuff I'm growing in, but I finally didn't need to be in ministry. I didn't need to do something to feel significant. I knew I was already significant because of what Christ had done for me. And that was massive for my freedom.

Joshua Hoffert (56:11.859)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (56:24.264)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (56:33.491)
Well, then, then talk about this maybe given given what you've just said, as it, as it kind of prepares you for, you know, it's, it's interesting that that as young men, we so grasp at influence and power and position. And we see the people that we that we've cherished in ministry positions and, we think, like I would so love that. We don't realize how much of our heart is involved in wanting that in a prideful, arrogant way. Right.

Justin Menzies (57:01.177)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Joshua Hoffert (57:02.695)
And then God ex he in the, you know, hopefully it doesn't, I know it doesn't happen with everybody because there's lots of devastating stories, but he expunges that from your heart where you don't even need it, require it or want it anymore. And then he goes, all right, now I'm gonna, and then you can have it. And you're like, I, I'm pretty happy doing the other stuff. Right. So, so, so what I remember, just watching you and you know, we,

Justin Menzies (57:17.167)
and then you can have it.

Justin Menzies (57:22.885)
Yeah. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (57:31.953)
we weren't able to connect all the time, but I think at least once a year we'd connect or see each other. You know, at that point I'd be in, I'd be in Calgary. you were, you were, do doing the electrician thing, right. and, but you would go like, you would go find a homeless person, sit down and talk with them then buy them boots if they needed them. Right. Like you started doing all this obscure stuff that nobody saw.

Justin Menzies (57:34.928)
Sure. Yep.

Justin Menzies (57:46.16)
for you every 10 years.

Justin Menzies (57:58.148)
yeah, yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (58:02.623)
Right. And, and it was like, you didn't care about being noticed. You just cared about the person that was there. So I remember you would tell me stories like, yeah, I met this homeless guy and you weren't trying to, you know, drum up any respect because I've never respected you. right. But I remember thinking like you were doing stuff that nobody could see. And, and, and then, you know, and then you, what you started doing with the church when you were pastoring is you started taking them.

Justin Menzies (58:09.102)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (58:16.649)
These things are true.

Joshua Hoffert (58:32.445)
with you on these excursions, right? But you would just go do this hidden stuff that nobody could see to care for the people that nobody saw. And because the Lord loved them, right? Like, like, how did that value develop? And or talk a little bit about that maybe.

Justin Menzies (58:34.36)
Yeah. Yeah.

Justin Menzies (58:49.402)
Well, that's what happened when I finally realized my, this might sound, I don't know, cliche, but it's just the truth. Like when I realized my identity in Christ and I allowed his love to just be like, Lord, you just love me. I don't have to earn your love. I don't have to perform. That was part of the orphan heart that I had. I had to earn the Father's love. I had to be a good enough Christian to be able to be of value.

Joshua Hoffert (59:10.994)
Right.

Justin Menzies (59:18.177)
And when the Lord just crushed all of those things with His love, it was just like His love came in. And so now I'm not trying really hard to go love people. I have love in my heart. It's overflowing and I just can't help it. So it's coming from an entirely different place. I'm not trying to prove something. I've become something and now out of that, there's an overflow that I'm not even trying to overflow. I literally cannot help it. So I would share the gospel with my customers, with other tradespeople, pray for healing.

Joshua Hoffert (59:35.646)
Right?

Joshua Hoffert (59:42.142)
Right.

Justin Menzies (59:47.051)
I was, I'm a believer. so he throw me into any circumstance situation. We're called to be salt and light. And it was a joy and it gave so much more purpose to me. So for example, when I woke up in the morning owning my own business, I wasn't waking up in the morning to get a paycheck. I was waking up in the morning to bring his kingdom. The paycheck was a nice bonus, but that's not why I was waking up. I was waking up to love people because I've now been so filled with his love.

Joshua Hoffert (59:50.324)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (01:00:05.695)
Right.

Justin Menzies (01:00:13.515)
Now I can just become that love. That's what we're called to become. That's like my first, what is it? First Timothy 1 7 or one five says the whole goal of our instruction, the whole goal, the whole point is love out of a pure heart and sincere faith. Yeah, that's the whole goal. And so I just was like, wow. And then I saw in first Corinthians 13, it says love never fails. Wow. Okay. This is real simple now. So if my whole goal is to just go and love,

Joshua Hoffert (01:00:27.229)
Love with sincerity. Yeah. Yep. That's right.

Joshua Hoffert (01:00:40.479)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (01:00:42.625)
I literally cannot fail. might not see the results. might not see everyone healed that you pray for. Maybe not everyone receives the gospel. But if you literally just go to love, you cannot fail. And I think if we kept it that simple, we'd be more fruitful.

Joshua Hoffert (01:00:44.703)
Right.

Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (01:00:55.795)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (01:00:59.369)
That's a, that's an excellent point. But so, and then in what ways do you think that prepared you like what, where along that journey did, did it start coming online for you that you might be called into this pastoring position? Was that like, you know, the church needs a pastor. And so I'm there. Where along on that journey did you go? I think was it, did you know kind of like, you know, one of those things I know that I'm probably going to pastor this church.

Like how did that come about after all this formation, right?

Justin Menzies (01:01:31.234)
Yeah.

Yeah, sure. it was 2019 at the very end, was December of 2019 that the Lord began to ask me to lay down my company. I think I'm losing my, I'm losing my headphones. Is that okay, Josh?

Joshua Hoffert (01:01:45.065)
Okay.

Joshua Hoffert (01:01:49.393)
Yeah, yeah, that's fine. Yeah, if you need to change from your headphones.

Justin Menzies (01:01:50.254)
They're dying on me. Is it okay if I change my headphones? You can just edit it out? Okay.

Joshua Hoffert (01:01:54.643)
Yep. Or make, or leave it in. So you look bad.

Joshua Hoffert (01:02:02.132)
You

Justin Menzies (01:02:05.306)
put these in and it'll be better. My headphones are old and so the battery doesn't last as long.

Joshua Hoffert (01:02:14.011)
yeah, yeah, no, no, not a problem.

Joshua Hoffert (01:02:28.127)
There we go. Yep, that's good.

Justin Menzies (01:02:29.62)
That works? Okay. Okay. Yeah. So 2019 I began to feel the Lord was asking me to lay down my company and but I wasn't I wasn't sure it was him. So that was a three month process. But 2020 is when I laid down my company and I had no idea what it was unto. I had a Peter moment where Jesus said I want you to drop your nets and follow me. So drop your profession and follow me. So I won't

Joshua Hoffert (01:02:52.191)
Right. Did you sell it or you just, or did you just close it or

Justin Menzies (01:02:57.14)
No, I ended up closing it. I actually tried to sell it and I had a dream and the Lord basically just told me I was just supposed to sell my truck and then just be done with it. So I sold my truck and I gave up my company.

Joshua Hoffert (01:03:11.795)
You're not very good at you're not very good at building wealth, you know, like, is there all the things you're not supposed to do?

Justin Menzies (01:03:17.521)
Well, I learned that it's far better to build wealth in the kingdom than to build wealth in this world. To store up treasures in heaven. Yeah, Jesus had something to say about that. Yeah, I read he said something about it. So I laid down my company, but I had no idea that this was under pastoring. Like I actually, at this point now, I don't want to pastor. Pastoring is like one of the last things I want to do. I don't want to be a pastor.

Joshua Hoffert (01:03:20.423)
Thank

I think, I think some, someone said that somewhere. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (01:03:37.918)
Okay.

Right. Right.

Justin Menzies (01:03:44.083)
I'm no longer naive to what that means. so, you need to be called to that. It's not just like, I have a good idea. So I lay down my company, long story short, we went in a whole year where we had no ability to provide for ourselves unless the Lord came through. And it was through that year, he taught us that my profession is not my provider, is.

Joshua Hoffert (01:03:47.303)
Right, right. Absolutely.

Yeah.

Justin Menzies (01:04:07.116)
And he had me doing all kinds of different stuff. I went up to the Yukon, I did a bunch of different stuff. Sometimes there'd be weeks of nothing and I was learning how to be content in the revelation he had given me that, again, I'm not significant because of what I do for him, but what he's done for me. So he really solidified this identity in me over the process of that year that I had no idea was unto becoming a pastor. So I was sitting on my couch one afternoon.

Joshua Hoffert (01:04:07.421)
Right. Right.

Joshua Hoffert (01:04:20.872)
Right, right.

Justin Menzies (01:04:32.211)
After not having my company for over a year, this is now 2021 and I'm sitting on the couch. I just went to go spend some time with the Lord and the Lord spoke to me and said, would you be willing to become the pastor of Jubilee? And I was very good friends with the pastor and his wife. And I was just like. What? Like, what a strange thing to ask, like what's like our pastor? Like, you meaning like a decade or something like Lord, why are you asking me that question?

Joshua Hoffert (01:05:00.083)
Right.

Justin Menzies (01:05:01.543)
And it was almost like he went to leave. I was just like, cause my immediate knee jerk reaction was no. No, I'm not willing. I do not want to do that. But then I said, well, hang on a minute, Hang on a minute. Hang on a minute. That was a very emotional response. So I just said,

Joshua Hoffert (01:05:09.299)
Right, sure.

Joshua Hoffert (01:05:14.879)
Ha

Joshua Hoffert (01:05:20.553)
that he was.

Justin Menzies (01:05:23.387)
Yeah, yeah. So I said, I said, Well, if a man or a woman were to ask me, I would definitely say no. But if you're asking me, then I'll say yes with all my heart. And then he was quiet. And so I left it at that. And I had no idea what was what was actually going on with the pastor. But a month a month after that, he called me and asked me to come over to his house. went over to his house.

And he said, Justin, would you be willing to pastor Jubilee? He asked me the exact same question in the same way that the Lord had asked me and he was stepping down. So that's how that's how it started. So that was September of or no, September of twenty twenty one is when I started pastoring. So it's been just over four years now.

Joshua Hoffert (01:06:08.595)
So going, going from he, I was always trying to run ahead of him. Right. And then start, cause now you've got a whole, in a way, a whole

Joshua Hoffert (01:06:26.227)
him. And how do I keep up? What's what's that journey been like of responding to all the things that he's doing? You know, because you took out you took over the church in in and there was a bit of chaos in the first six months or so. Right? You're restructuring the board and leadership and all that kind of stuff. And and the way that the eldership was run at that point, and you changed a lot of that stuff.

And when I think I was there about a year after you, about a year after you had, things, and it was just so the community was just coming online is very vibrant. remember, you know, there was all kinds of different ethnicities and people from different countries and different social statuses and everything. And it was just as beautiful conglomeration of people together, worshiping. I remember going, man, this is a super dynamic group of people that are very different, but have come together. And so what was it like? Like,

Justin Menzies (01:06:59.973)
Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Justin Menzies (01:07:07.835)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (01:07:18.491)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (01:07:26.769)
you know, what was the moment that it was like, God's running so he's going and I, I actually don't even know how to keep up anymore. Like,

Justin Menzies (01:07:35.075)
Yeah, so when I took over there was about 60, 70 people in the church. And keep in mind, it's the tail end of COVID. A lot of churches shrunk in numbers, so it wasn't like, you know. But then all of a sudden, like the church just starts growing like crazy. And what was really cool was like, I didn't fall into the typical, like, I don't care about numbers. I don't care about like how much money comes in for the offering.

Joshua Hoffert (01:07:59.68)
Sure. Yeah. You weren't putting a good program together and you hadn't canvassed the neighborhood with handouts or anything like that. It was.

Justin Menzies (01:08:04.459)
no, I-

In four and a half years, I've given one offering message. And so it's just like, don't, don't like that's it's the Lord's house. And it's not that we don't teach about like, it's important to know how to give, it's also important to know how to receive. And so we take care of a lot of people in the house and in the church. so, but like how many people come and how much money people give, those are the just two things that I never concerned myself with. Cause I don't, I don't care in the sense of like that's

Joshua Hoffert (01:08:11.967)
Right, right.

Joshua Hoffert (01:08:20.862)
Sure.

Justin Menzies (01:08:38.031)
The Lord builds his house and unless he builds, we labor in vain. So he said, I will build my church. So I'm not about numbers. not about, I have no idea who gives or who gives what that's between them and God. It's not actually my business. And in not caring about those things, it's been wild how God has provided. Like we're a smaller church. mean, we're up, if everybody was to come at once, we'd probably be around 400. And then we have about a thousand online, but it's like, it's.

Joshua Hoffert (01:08:39.847)
Right. That's right. That's right.

Joshua Hoffert (01:08:56.19)
Right.

Justin Menzies (01:09:06.929)
It's been wild to see how God has provided in crazy ways financially because we're not moved by it, whether in much or in little, godliness with contentment is great gain. So that's been a really beautiful thing to be free from. So I preach the truth and I do it with love and grace as God helps me and as he's merciful to me, but we're not afraid to tackle hard issues. We're not afraid to clearly define what sin is.

Joshua Hoffert (01:09:21.235)
Right.

Justin Menzies (01:09:32.899)
And we don't do seeker friendly. And so we want to see people grow in Christ. And one of the things I tell our people a lot is what Paul said to the church in Galatians 419, where he says, little children in whom I labor with birth pangs until Christ is formed in you. That's like, this is the message guys. Like this isn't praying a prayer to go to heaven and trying to attend church and be a good person. Like that is not what Jesus died for. He died for us to become like him, to become one with him, to be his bride without spot and wrinkle.

and to be unspotted from the world. Like this is a beautiful calling he's given us and it's so much deeper than just church attendance. And so that's been really cool. But in that, I've noticed that people are like really hungry to be challenged and they're really hungry to just hear the gospel for all its rawness and its beauty. And in that, God's had us just so much stuff happening that I've just feel like, Lord, like you are moving

Faster than I feel like I can keep up sometimes and it's not unto burnout. It's not unto being weary It's just very full and it's just like we got people coming that are like, you know I had one guy came on into the church about a year ago. I've been discipling him He came in and he said I woke up. I was an alcoholic I woke up in the morning and I just realized that Jesus is the only thing that makes sense grew up in an atheist home He's like Jesus is the only thing makes sense. He's like I called a Christian hotline They said to come to my local church. So here I am. What do I do?

Joshua Hoffert (01:10:37.641)
Sure. All right.

Justin Menzies (01:11:02.856)
And so like, yeah, yeah, totally. So God is building his church and he's bringing in people from all over. And you know, we're starting a 24 seven house of prayer this year. We're starting house churches this year because we want to see the empowerment of all believers. Like you have giftings, you have callings. How can we tap into who you've been created to be?

Joshua Hoffert (01:11:04.679)
familiar with that story.

Justin Menzies (01:11:27.434)
And and see that disciple in a house church setting so it's not just a bible study or listening to one person speak No, the holy spirit's the leader and how can we see the gifts and callings of god come alive in the body? That you literally can't facilitate on a sunday morning and so it's stuff like this That's just like whoa lord like you're you're like giving so many green lights to things And it's almost been hard to keep up. But the other beautiful thing that god has provided

is we now have, we have 50 leaders that are just beautiful, incredible people. So God is also distributing the weight. So it's not so top heavy. And we're beginning to do this as a family, like it says in Ephesians four, that every member of the church is supposed to do their share. And that's not just like volunteering, that's like, all growing in Christ likeness. So I would say that,

Joshua Hoffert (01:12:20.254)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (01:12:22.829)
The amount of things that we're seeing is only possible by the grace of God. And sometimes I'm just like, wow, Lord, you're moving so fast. I'm just like, maybe let's just like, can we just hang out for a month maybe and just chill out? But what I realize is that there are so many souls that are at stake. This is about souls. This is about like seeing people's eternal destination change. This isn't about just church attendance and trying to grow things.

Joshua Hoffert (01:12:36.797)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (01:12:52.885)
This is about souls and what Jesus cares about. And so this is about bringing the kingdom and bringing the gospel and empowering every single believer to do the things God's called them to do in a very empowering way and not just leaving it up to those in vocational ministry. Because if the whole church is empowered to the Great Commission, then that's how we're going to see things absolutely and exponentially change is when every person realizes your call to baptize people.

Joshua Hoffert (01:13:05.801)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (01:13:21.888)
You're called to preach the gospel. You're called to make disciples. This isn't he said that to his disciples, Matthew 28. He said, these are all the things I want you to do. And then he said to them, now go and make disciples and teach them to observe everything that I have told you. So if he said it to his disciples, he's saying it to literally every believer, which is so amazing because that gives our life so much purpose. So like we got a hot tub two years ago and we baptized over 100 people in there now because it's just like

Joshua Hoffert (01:13:34.899)
to do, yeah. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (01:13:41.471)
That's right.

Joshua Hoffert (01:13:50.399)
That's amazing.

Justin Menzies (01:13:51.552)
and I've baptized very few of them, I get other people from the church to come and baptize to empower them that know your call to do this just as much as I am. So we have people who are like are a week old in the Lord and they're baptizing people because we're empowering them. You know what's...

Joshua Hoffert (01:13:57.758)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (01:14:05.759)
Wait, you don't make sure they're ordained with the right licensing. Yeah.

Justin Menzies (01:14:12.43)
Yeah, you know what's encouraging just real quick is that when the Pharisees saw the disciples, they saw that they were uneducated men, but that they had been with Jesus. And that's what qualifies you.

Joshua Hoffert (01:14:20.468)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's right. That's absolutely true. And my last question we can end on this, think is, is kind of along those lines. And you kind of already answered it in a way, but maybe just, just think about it or, or, you anyway, the, we live in an age when it comes to the, the conversation around pastoring and leading a church is

is two of the predominant types of voices are make sure you have a really good online presence because that's where people hear about you. And so you need to focus on having a good streaming platform, having all the right stuff so people can be attracted to you that way because they're going to search that way and find you there. So online church online church online church, that's one of the things that's talked about a lot. And then the other one is

is as a pastor, you have to know how to craft a message. And so you need to know the points of the sermons and how to do this and how to communicate it effectively. And so that a lot of the teaching and training tends to focus on those things, right? Structure, attraction, how you how you engage with people so that they come into your church or how you prepare a sermon, craft your notes, and make sure you can deliver a powerful impactful point with the right quote that that leaves people

thinking, and you come from the, there's a particular school you attended and I think people call it hard knocks and, you didn't, there's no, there's no seminary training in your background. Nobody sat you down and said, here's how you exegete a passage. Here's how you run a staff meeting. Here's how you set up an online platform so you can. Yeah.

Justin Menzies (01:16:01.261)
Yeah.

Not a drop.

Justin Menzies (01:16:14.493)
gosh, yeah. How you run a board meeting. Like I didn't know any of this stuff.

Joshua Hoffert (01:16:18.877)
All that stuff, all that stuff. You have no formal training in that sense, but you've served faithfully and as the outside observer looking at, I know you don't characterize it this way, but you go, you went from 60 people to 400. That's 400 % growth in the four years you've been a pastor, right? That's by all metrics, any pastor would go, how do I do that? Right?

Justin Menzies (01:16:43.276)
called.

Justin Menzies (01:16:47.985)
Yeah, it's called the grace and mercy of God. Yeah, but I hear you.

Joshua Hoffert (01:16:48.187)
And, and, yes, yes. So the answer for how you do that for a lot of people is build your online platform, attract people, or work on crafting your messages so that they're so succinct and they make these great points this way. And, and so those are kind of the competing voices today, but, but your, your, you have no part to play in that world. And so I'm curious if you were going to go, what are the two things

that you think the Lord goes, this is what pleases me about a leader who leads my people. Not you can craft a good sermon or you can make an a good online presence, but in Justin's estimation, what you've learned, this is what makes a good leader and an effective leader and what the Lord goes. That's the kind of person I'm pleased to rest on. What would you say to that?

Justin Menzies (01:17:42.892)
Well, the online stuff and yeah, like you're saying, crafting, never, I don't even think about that kind of stuff. I actually encourage people if they're online, you need to get offline and get into a church and get into some community because we have this consumeristic mentality. It's like, no, you also have something to offer and something to give. So get off online and go join your local church. If that's here, great. If it's somewhere else, great. But.

Joshua Hoffert (01:17:50.759)
Right. I know that about you.

Joshua Hoffert (01:18:00.244)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (01:18:09.236)
Great.

Justin Menzies (01:18:09.686)
but be in family and like actually do life together. Cause if we're just online, that concerns me. And so I, yeah, we have stuff online for people to see, if it was to stop tomorrow, I don't know, it would be hard for me to care. It's just not why we do things. So I would say for any leader, the most crucial and important thing that I have learned in leadership.

is that you can only minister as effectively to people as you do to the Lord. And so my ministry to the Lord is way before my ministry to people. And from that place, you become a life-giving river instead of a stagnant pond. And so you can't lead people past your own love for Jesus.

Joshua Hoffert (01:18:45.247)
Such an excellent point.

Justin Menzies (01:19:04.393)
And so I think your biggest responsibility is to make sure you're, that's why our church is called First Love. It's the name that God gave us because there's a calling and a destiny linked to that name that that's, we want to live in a way that's, that is worthy of that kind of name. You know, that was God's idea. I had no plans on changing the name. The Lord did that. So it's like, Lord, help us to always live in a place where you are our first love. You are our one thing. Like I think one of the things that church has to get back to is simply preaching.

Jesus. Like this is all about Him. It's not about how good the set list is or how good the worship, like it's how good the sermon is, how many points you got. It's like, we preaching Christ? Are we preaching the way? Do we have a Maranatha cry in our hearts? You know, and so I think that so much of we get so complicated and we don't realize how much we've been informed and touched by the world.

Joshua Hoffert (01:19:52.617)
Right.

Justin Menzies (01:20:01.023)
Because when I hear like online, do this and do that and read this book on church growth, it's like, to me it's a terrible waste of time. It's like, no, if you just love Jesus, he will build his church. That's not my job. I don't build his church, he does that. That burden is not on me. My job is to preach Christ and to live Christ. And if you can do that, he'll do all the rest. He does the heavy lifting, his yoke is easy, his burden is light.

Joshua Hoffert (01:20:01.024)
Thanks

Joshua Hoffert (01:20:16.007)
Right. Right.

Justin Menzies (01:20:29.675)
So I find that the more I'm free from my own, if I have selfish ambition and I just wanna like grow something for my own sake in his name, that's a really dangerous place to be, right? That's like Matthew 7 stuff, like, depart from me, I don't know you, right? It's like you used my name to build your own platform and I do not wanna fall in that category. So I would say the love of God and the fear of the Lord.

Joshua Hoffert (01:20:38.26)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (01:20:42.291)
Yeah, absolutely.

Justin Menzies (01:20:55.754)
are crucial as a leader in the body of Christ. You have to walk in the fear of the Lord because the fear of the Lord crushes all other fear. And so it's like there's a fear of the Lord. So I'm not pleasing man. I'm not afraid of men. I've been called a false teacher. I've had nasty things happen to me. And it was actually kind of funny. was over the does God speak through dreams? And I said yes. And so I was called a false teacher for that one. And they left the church and I'm like,

Joshua Hoffert (01:21:20.056)
Okay. Right. Right.

Justin Menzies (01:21:24.881)
Okay, but if I'm moved by their criticism, then I'll also be moved by their praise. And so my Lord, are you pleased with this morning? Was the sermon like, was I yielded enough that you could use me? Did I get out of your way when I needed to, or is this just all about me and my church and how many people come to it how much money they give? Because I think that's what's led to a lot of deadness in church is that our motives have gotten all over the place and we need to get back to first love.

Joshua Hoffert (01:21:49.823)
Totally.

Justin Menzies (01:21:54.132)
where this is all about Jesus and how amazing Jesus is. So when people leave our church, I don't want them leaving talking about me. I want them leaving talking about Him and excited to go spend time with Him. That to me is success. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (01:22:08.627)
Yeah, that's beautiful. I one of the things we've been talking about in my in some with some of my friends out here is the need to release outcomes or the need for an outcome. Right, which is which so so yeah, and so I'm just tracking with you going Yeah, that that could work. If I attach an outcome to it, then I'm doing it for a reason. Versus I'm ministering to him and being yielded to him. And how that and that's actually the word submission in Scripture.

Justin Menzies (01:22:20.328)
Mm, yeah, results, yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (01:22:38.385)
is probably better translated as be as yielding, right, getting out of the way, so that his he can flourish in the hearts of people and in the community that he's called you to. So that's so beautiful. I love that. I love that my friend. And I think with that we will call this interview to a close. And there's other things I want to ask you about. But, you know, we can't bore the people for too long. So yeah.

Justin Menzies (01:22:42.411)
Mm, yeah. Yeah.

Justin Menzies (01:22:49.31)
Yeah.

Justin Menzies (01:22:57.747)
Hey, thanks for having me, man.

Justin Menzies (01:23:04.081)
Yeah, it's true. It's true. I, Josh, I just want to say to that I love your ministry. I love what you guys are doing. Love your family and Aaron. And I think you're a very needed voice in this hour. And so I'm super honored that I could even come on here and speak to some of your people. I just I bless your community. And yeah, I'm super thankful for you guys as well. So it was an honor.

Joshua Hoffert (01:23:18.429)
Thanks Justin.

Joshua Hoffert (01:23:26.303)
Yeah, it always is. It's a privilege to get to walk and do life with you. And I'm glad we were able to do this. So we will we'll have you back. And we've got to go grab a coffee at some point when we're closer in proximity to each other. So it would be amazing. Yeah. And I want one of those hats that you have. So that's I like that one. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. Love you much, my friend. And until next time.

Justin Menzies (01:23:33.651)
Sounds good.

Justin Menzies (01:23:37.266)
Yes, I'd love that. Yeah, amen. Hey, there you go. I got it made. Yeah, yeah, yeah, cool. Love you too, man.

Sounds good.

Joshua Hoffert

Co-host

Murray Dueck

Co-host