Chaplaincy, Homelessness, and Spiritual Direction: an interview with Jeremy Males

Have you ever wondered how drug addiction and mental illness intersect with spiritual direction and the spiritual disciplines? How do you integrate spiritual disciplines into a church community and/or a homeless shelter? Join Voices from the Desert as they sit down with Jeremy Males. Jeremy is a pastor, chaplain, and spiritual director.

For more about Voices from the Desert: https://www.patreon.com/VoicesfromtheDesert

For more about Jeremy and LCFI: https://www.lcfi.org

Transcript

Joshua Hoffert (00:01.644)
for the record, it, that it, it records locally. And then uploads it as it's recording. So if there's any hiccups in the audio or the video, that won't impact the quality of the recording. So you don't have to like, you know, if, if for some reason, there's delays or pauses or glitches, don't worry about it. As long as it doesn't interact or interrupt our ability to communicate, which usually the audio comes through fine and

Jeremy Males (00:07.202)
Yeah.

Jeremy Males (00:15.064)
Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Males (00:23.596)
Okay.

Jeremy Males (00:28.194)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (00:30.196)
you know, if there's little glitches in the video, it doesn't. I've had people totally drop out of the call and jump back in and it's not even it's been fine. So it's actually quite a good, quite a handy platform to use. So okay, so I'll do a little intro and you can you can introduce yourself we won't we won't talk about

the organization will drop the organization and if for some reason it cut it accidentally gets mentioned, I can cut it out. So not a problem. Right? So you don't have to be I mean, we'll know if it happens because we'll both go, you know, and then I can look back through that and cut that part out. So not a problem. Okay. Okay. 321

Joshua Hoffert (01:23.594)
Welcome everybody to another episode of voices from the desert desert desert. And, I've got a, friend here with me who you've he's listened to the podcast before. I know because he's talked to me about it. I don't know how much of a listener he is, but does he know what we're supposed to do after we do that little intro?

Jeremy Males (01:51.522)
I don't remember.

Joshua Hoffert (01:51.914)
This is the coyote how moment. So you'd be a good coyote how person. Okay. So when I have, when Murray's on you, you know, well, you know, you're kind of a wilderness guy, right? So yeah. So this was.

Jeremy Males (01:56.171)
you

Jeremy Males (02:02.54)
Ahem.

Yeah, all right, yeah. I used to have a Coyote call. I think it broke, but I did have a Coyote call. could have used it.

Joshua Hoffert (02:10.524)
Okay, so I want you now. So when we do voices from the desert, let's let's hear you go for it.

Jeremy Males (02:16.662)
Okay, gotcha.

Joshua Hoffert (02:22.188)
that's up. That's an upgrade over what we normally stuff. Yeah. When Murray does it, when Murray does it with the dogs in the room, they've all perked up and looked at them. Lincoln is quite the energetic dog. Murray's dogs are less energetic than Lincoln and, Lincoln's, what kind of dog is Lincoln again?

Jeremy Males (02:22.861)
you go, it's best I got. And now my dog's barking.

Jeremy Males (02:32.865)
Yeah, Lincoln started barking.

Jeremy Males (02:44.533)
He's an Irish red setter and he's got the tone of shame on right now because he got cut up hunting a couple weeks ago and on his legs so he's trying to heal up.

Joshua Hoffert (02:46.72)
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, right. Right. Yeah. So welcome everybody to podcasts where we talk about, you know, all things pertaining to life and God and the kingdom, right? The idea of voices from the desert is people have wandered through the desert, found something there and have come back with something to say.

And I'm here with a good friend of mine, longtime friend of mine. and I think the second time we talked, I made him cry profusely. I'm very proud of that moment. and, yeah, that's true. That's true. Don't, don't take my, my pride away from me. Okay. My moment. It was, it was the profound insight and depth that I spoke at that made you cry.

Jeremy Males (03:29.271)
I'm an easy crier though, so.

Jeremy Males (03:38.925)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Hoffert (03:43.658)
not that you're an easy crier. Give me the credit. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. So

Jeremy Males (03:44.524)
Yes, yes, yep. Well, you remember is the first time I met you was at the front of the CMA conference and you prayed for me. That's the time we had just become members and you read my mail.

Joshua Hoffert (03:53.28)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (03:57.493)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (04:01.024)
That's how they say that. And then the next year I were the next time I don't know if you were there the next year. But the next time you were there. Yeah, the next year you were there. I knew you were coming because we had connected. And I had a dream that in the dream. I knew you were going to solve homelessness in your city. I didn't know anything about what you did. Right? Because we barely knew each other at that point. And, and

Jeremy Males (04:06.381)
No, it's a couple of, three three parties, guess. Yeah.

Jeremy Males (04:15.788)
Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Males (04:24.961)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (04:29.3)
And we talked about that and you were deeply impacted. So I remember I remember those moments. Those were the beginning of our that was the beginning of our, our years of friendship. And so this is I want to introduce you to a dear friend of mine named Jeremy, Jeremy males. Jeremy is a chaplain. works with homeless. He works with drug addicts. He's a pastor in in Ontario. And my wife just delivered some coffee for me because she's a wonderful woman.

Jeremy Males (04:33.101)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Hoffert (04:58.988)
And, and Jeremy also has a history with spiritual direction, and, and years of leadership and all of that. And so I, you know, Jeremy and I have known each other, I actually serve on Jeremy's board, we're both part of the same, the same leadership organization, denomination, Association of Leaders, right? So technically, it's a denomination. But we call it we think of it as an Association of Leaders together.

Jeremy Males (05:20.205)
Association, yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (05:28.052)
CMA, we've had the head of the CMA, the president of CMA on the podcast before. My cohost, Murray Dewek is part of CMA. And so, so there's lots of lots of relational connectedness there. But I've known Jeremy for a number of years. Probably, probably 10, also probably almost been 10 years now.

Jeremy Males (05:49.389)
Almost 10, yeah, because think it was 2017, I think was the first time I was at CMA. I think something like that. So, yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (05:56.404)
it was probably something like that. It was 16 or 17. So it's been close, right? We're now in 2026, right? The tide has turned. So we're in 2026. And, and he he you know, it's funny, because I like I said, I had this dream in the dream, I knew he was being elected to as some kind of a city official to solve homelessness, without realizing that Jeremy was a chaplain working with the homeless. And

Jeremy Males (06:04.631)
So.

Joshua Hoffert (06:23.916)
And I've been to the church many times now become very good friends with the rest of the leadership team love dearly what they're doing they they moved from your kind of a typical Sunday morning model of church to a house church model. And many of the people that are part of the church have been people that have been in homelessness, that are presently homeless, that have struggled with drug addiction and mental health issues, which a lot of those things all coincide together with the particular

know, the particulars of that lifestyle, right. And so Jeremy's Jeremy's measured, or married. I think I could say that you've carried yourself with a tender firmness in dealing with all of those things, because you have to be both. And you and you you can't sacrifice one for the other. In helping people grow and understand the nature of God and

Jeremy Males (07:15.404)
Mm.

Joshua Hoffert (07:20.232)
and implement routines and rhythms into their life that helps bring transformation. And, I think that you're you're a man who really cares about how people walk that out. And so let me introduce you to the pastor of London Christian Fellowship International, which just means a couple of churches in London, Ontario. And Jeremy males.

Jeremy Males (07:24.759)
Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Males (07:45.901)
Hello, hello. Yeah, so I've been serving as a chaplain at a local shelter for, well, I total, because I served at another shelter for a little bit, but as a chaplain, I've been doing that for about 16 and a half years, maybe a few more months than that with when I worked at the other shelter just as an intake worker. Interestingly enough, my history, I grew up in a family

Joshua Hoffert (08:03.318)
Wow. Right.

Jeremy Males (08:15.212)
that, and I say this with all respect, we took in the Waifs and the Vagabonds, the people who were struggling, the people who didn't have anyone else. And so it's been part of my life since I was very young. My wife, her father was a guy in AA and he was a household name in London amongst the AA community 30, 40 years ago, I guess 40 years ago now.

Joshua Hoffert (08:28.299)
Right?

Jeremy Males (08:44.748)
And so her upbringing and her heritage is very similar to mine. And so this is kind of the type of thing that I've been doing for, like since my teenage years, had people that I knew who were struggling when I was like 14, right? When I was in high school and I was hanging out with, ministering to, loving people who just came from...

ridiculously awful backgrounds. I'm overwhelmed at how blessed I have been. And you know, any of the trouble that I have in my life, think is, it just pales in comparison to the to the people that I've worked with. So I'm very thankful to God.

Joshua Hoffert (09:30.38)
Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's right. And and I you know, I one of the things I forgot to mention, and I should have mentioned is you have a wonderful wife named Katie, and three wonderful children. One of them, your daughter is an aspiring author, and the other two are firmly entrenched in playing board games with Jeremy that that I have

Jeremy Males (09:47.465)
Amen.

Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Males (09:57.321)
Absolutely.

Joshua Hoffert (09:58.23)
helped them to introduce them to some of the nerdiest ones you can possibly find. And so I've stayed at his house many times and have, I think I have a permanent bed down in the basement.

Jeremy Males (10:02.977)
Yep.

Jeremy Males (10:11.658)
you don't anymore. Katie and I have moved to that bedroom now. yeah, you can put it on your resentments list if you want. I have another friend who comes and stays with us. She's in recovery and we're on the resentment list because we took her bedroom away.

Joshua Hoffert (10:14.381)
really? Okay.

Yeah, yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (10:25.216)
Okay, well, you know, I've, I've, well, that will get us right into the topic of spiritual practices. How do I recover from my offense? You know, so what but so you and you and so you've got you, you've been the chaplain for that long, it's always been part of your life. And you guys as a leadership team, right, you and your wife and another couple that you're leading the church with. You guys all went through it was a two year program, I think, right of

Jeremy Males (10:32.33)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (10:53.993)
spiritual direction.

Jeremy Males (10:54.666)
Yes, yeah, so myself and

Joshua Hoffert (10:57.974)
What was that? Why? Like what? Go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah.

Jeremy Males (11:01.91)
Well, so I went through the two years. One of the people from the other couple went through two years and then my wife did one year. Yeah, so just three of us that went through that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (11:10.164)
Okay.

Joshua Hoffert (11:13.918)
Okay, the three of you went through right, right. Yeah. and so what was the, what was like, why, you know, what was the, what was the impetus for going? I think we need to learn more about spiritual direction. Cause this was what five or six years ago, right? That you guys went through the program.

Jeremy Males (11:21.973)
So.

Jeremy Males (11:30.028)
Yeah, yeah, something like that. Yeah. Well, again, it was it was 2018 and 2019, I think because we we ended up not being able to meet together on our second cohort, the second year because of COVID stuff, right? We had to do a bunch of it online, which really sucked. But so I was thinking about this question beforehand. The first course I ever took at Tyndale when I was doing my bachelor's

Joshua Hoffert (11:32.619)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (11:46.7)
right, of course. Right.

Jeremy Males (12:00.001)
was a course on Christian discipleship. And part of that course, we read The Way of the Heart by Henry Nowen, which is a, it was a very, right? And it's like 50 pages, think 50 pages-ish, but it's like pithy and really pregnant with meaning. And so this whole idea of, know, silence, solitude, contemplation was a huge thing.

Joshua Hoffert (12:03.369)
Okay.

Joshua Hoffert (12:09.055)
that's a good one. that's such a good one.

Jeremy Males (12:27.116)
for me just learning wise. And then there was another book we used by the last time was Post-Mino. I can't think of the name of it right now. But this is like years and years before I ever did any spiritual direction stuff. But as I was thinking about this question today, went, hey, that was my first introduction to it. And that's back in, you know, 2008, 2009. Why I got into taking the spiritual direction program is because some good friends of ours,

Joshua Hoffert (12:43.328)
Right.

Jeremy Males (12:57.192)
said that they would pay for me to take this, this two-year program. And I was like, hey, you know what? I'm kind of a lifelong student. I'd like to learn. And I think I would say this to anyone, even if you don't ever plan on practicing as a spiritual director, a program like that would be beneficial to your life just for your own spiritual formation and development.

Joshua Hoffert (13:01.802)
Okay. Right.

Joshua Hoffert (13:22.156)
Right, sure.

Jeremy Males (13:25.046)
So I didn't totally know totally what I was getting into, but it was transformative for me. It's changed my way of looking at my relationship with God and my relationship with others. And actually, think more people in pastoral roles, if we look at pastoring being a shepherding type of ministry, ultimately, I think we always look at pastoral as your preaching, right? But I think the shepherding is the most important thing.

of that happens as a pastor, that's my opinion. And spiritual direction allows you to step into that in a different way. And I think it impacts your own life and then begins to impact the life of others significantly.

Joshua Hoffert (14:13.964)
it strikes me as as you know, studying the the early church monks, right? desert fathers and such that one of the consistent patterns of discipleship is father, would you give me a word? Right? And that doesn't mean, you know, sometimes in our charismatic, we think it means prophetic word, but no.

Jeremy Males (14:21.899)
.

Jeremy Males (14:35.977)
Yeah. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (14:41.376)
give me some insight and advice for how to live my life in a way that will mimic what yours look like because I want to know the Lord as you know, that's kind of the context for the question, right? So like, so they're asking for advice on how to structure their spiritual life. So like one particular guy asks Anthony, the great that Anthony goes, and whatever place you find it, find yourself don't easily leave it, do everything according to the testimony of Holy Scriptures and always have the Father before your face. Right? So those are his three

Jeremy Males (14:44.907)
Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Males (14:49.533)
Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep.

Jeremy Males (15:07.637)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Hoffert (15:09.588)
lifestyle instructions are very practical. Right. And, and this is, this is the, the, the lifeblood of early Christianity is this kind of these kinds of interactions. Right. What strikes me about that is, we today send, you know, you get sent through a spiritual direction course to rediscover what is actually always been about Christianity.

Jeremy Males (15:10.131)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jeremy Males (15:20.661)
Yeah. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (15:38.688)
Christianity has always been about. Right. And so now we have a term that we call it now I'm a spiritual director because I've been through a spiritual direction program when realistically it's no, you've just rediscovered what has always been. And because we've lost it so effectively, right. Discipleship. like saying discipleship in the evangelical church is read your Bible, show up to church on time and stack chairs when you get the opportunity.

Jeremy Males (15:40.832)
Yes.

Jeremy Males (15:53.536)
Yes.

Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (16:06.452)
If you do these three things, you will be saved. That's, and, and so we've, we've seriously done a disservice to helping people learn what it means to grow and to be regenerated in the image of God. Right. yeah, go for it.

Jeremy Males (16:06.793)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Males (16:18.431)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Actually, I take it one step farther, Josh, and say discipleship, in my estimation, starts well before we make a profession of faith. I think discipleship starts the moment someone goes, hmm, I'm interested in this God stuff. I'm going to pursue it, right? Because is it like, if we look at the disciples, Jesus' disciples, yes, they became his disciples at such and such a time. But

Joshua Hoffert (16:30.668)
yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (16:36.788)
Yeah, there you go. Right.

Jeremy Males (16:47.423)
they didn't figure it out what it was all about until after he died and rose again and they'd been, you know, filled with spirit. So I think this whole idea of discipleship, starts at an earlier spot. And if we recognized it sooner, we could actually probably help people in their journey a lot more.

Joshua Hoffert (16:51.371)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (17:02.357)
Right.

Right? Or tease it, tease it out. Tease it out more. Yeah. Yeah. So you go through the two year program and it what what was its impact on you in terms of like, what did it change about how you lived and how you talked?

Jeremy Males (17:09.407)
Yeah.

Jeremy Males (17:24.259)
so I think first and foremost what it changed in me was how I spent time with God. And I remember hearing Louis Giglio in one of his messages, How Great Is Our God, that video, he talked about how most of his conversations with God had been him counseling God, him negotiating God, him making deals with God, right? Something along that lines.

Joshua Hoffert (17:34.547)
Okay, right.

Joshua Hoffert (17:41.964)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Hoffert (17:51.404)
That's right. Yeah.

Jeremy Males (17:54.156)
And I think we approach prayer and our time with God very much in the same way. Where I think part of spiritual formation, spiritual direction is this, let's get silent before God. Let's listen to what he has to say. And sometimes when I sit down and I reach out for the presence of God, I'm not necessarily aware of his presence at that moment. Doesn't mean that he's any less there.

Joshua Hoffert (17:59.382)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (18:20.332)
Sure. Yeah.

Jeremy Males (18:23.431)
any relationship takes effort, right? I have to sit there and be willing to reach out for him. And so it certainly changed my view of just sitting in silence and being in God's presence. Like I think sometimes my wife and I will be sitting in the same room and she'll be working on something and I'll be working on something. We're not even necessarily talking, but we're present with one another. And there's just something about being with

Joshua Hoffert (18:50.006)
Right.

Jeremy Males (18:53.375)
you know, my wife in that situation, that's just, it brings life to me, right? And not that God needs any life, but I think it brings life to God's heart when we're willing to just sit and be with him, right? So I think that was.

Joshua Hoffert (18:55.756)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (19:09.054)
I think you have the yeah, I think you can bring him pleasure. Absolutely. Right. I think that's a that's I think he's favorably disposed always to his people, but he's he is. Revelation 411 says that all of creation was created by his for his pleasure. And you're like, yeah, I actually the word for will in the New Testament is is interchangeable with the word pleasure.

Jeremy Males (19:14.331)
Absolutely, right.

Mm. Yeah.

Jeremy Males (19:29.055)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Males (19:37.043)
Isn't that interesting, Yeah. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (19:38.252)
Right. Cause anything God wills he pleases right. Obviously. Right. So I think you absolutely, I think, I think the human being, maybe this is controversial. I think the human being has the capacity to bring to the heart of God in a measurable amount of pain or in a measurable amount of pleasure.

Jeremy Males (20:01.899)
I don't think that's controversial. I think that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I suppose, yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (20:04.384)
I think it depends on who you're talking to, whether it's controversial. Yeah, that's what I mean. It's not controversial between you and I, but, and, and I don't think that changes his disposition. And it's immeasurable because you can't measure the heart of God, right? The, the, the Ephesians one talks about the immeasurability of his greatness. so you can't measure the heart of God, but I, but people definitely please him and displease him. We can see that throughout scripture, right?

Jeremy Males (20:17.609)
Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Males (20:33.322)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (20:34.796)
Sometimes we want to talk about, I think when we talk about relating to God in a cultural context, sometimes we think about him as more along the lines of a stoic philosopher and a kind of an unfeeling, uncaring God who's occasionally invested and involved versus a God who is aware and intricately inserted himself into creation.

Jeremy Males (20:43.667)
Okay.

Jeremy Males (20:55.082)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Hoffert (21:04.512)
very alive and yeah.

Jeremy Males (21:04.57)
You know what, yeah, I think one of the best examples of that is actually in the book of Exodus, right? Where, well, so I'm thinking about how the people, of course, the beginning of Exodus, you get the of the story that they've now been put into slavery and they're calling out to this God that they really don't know. It's the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Joshua Hoffert (21:12.34)
Okay, right? Go for it.

Joshua Hoffert (21:28.736)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Males (21:31.114)
It's their God, but it's not their God in a sense because they don't really familiar with him the same way Abraham and Isaac and Jacob were. And it says, I think at the end of chapter two, somewhere around there, and God heard their cry and he remembered the promise he made to Abraham. And then when Moses is having the conversation with God at the burning bush, he gets his, Moses says, well, who should I say ascendingly? And he says, tell them I am. He's ascendingly, right? He's the God who is present, the God who was always there.

Joshua Hoffert (21:44.779)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (21:56.746)
Right, right, right. Yeah, that's right.

Jeremy Males (22:01.179)
And so that's why I said, even when we don't sense his presence, it doesn't mean he's any less there. He was there with the people in Exodus, in the Exodus, right? Anyway, that may or may not apply, but you know what, I'm getting that.

Joshua Hoffert (22:05.536)
Yeah, that's right.

Joshua Hoffert (22:09.729)
Yeah.

No, it does. It does. I it's it is. It's a marker on the nature of God, the Exodus narrative there over and against any other, deific being that, mythological culture, cultures that created myths about at the, in that day and age, right? For him to say, I am that I am. I'm, am present and embodied here. And Moses sees him as fire.

Jeremy Males (22:19.217)
Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Males (22:31.988)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (22:39.432)
non can all consuming fire non consuming a bush. Right? It's it's radically different, right? Like a fire consumes everything, but he doesn't consume anything. Right? A God is a God is in terms of, you know, ancient mythos, a God is not favorably disposed towards humans, but he's going I am that I am I'm I exist because I exist, right? It's, it's fundamentally different, the markers of being that

Jeremy Males (22:43.636)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Males (23:07.614)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (23:09.278)
are laid out in Exodus. that's yeah, I think that's absolutely. Yeah.

Jeremy Males (23:14.122)
You know, it's also funny to me now as I think about this in the conversation we're having, if I can just turn this in terms of, towards the direction of what ministry is like in, you know, frontline social service chaplaincy ministry. We have people who are very much in a similar place to the people of Israel when they were in that place of slavery, right? And again, it's not just homelessness, it's not just addiction, it's mental health, it's in

Joshua Hoffert (23:27.84)
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Joshua Hoffert (23:34.476)
Okay.

Right?

Jeremy Males (23:43.339)
tense trauma that is way beyond anything I've ever experienced. There's times where I sat with people and they shared the story of abuse that happened when they were three years old that they can remember. And after hearing it, Josh, I told my boss, said, I'm going, this is years ago now, early on in ministry, I went and I said to my boss, said, I need to go sit in my office and not do anything for a while. And I went and sat in silence for 40 minutes because I felt, and again,

Joshua Hoffert (24:06.678)
Right?

Jeremy Males (24:11.402)
it's holding the hearts of people when you're when they're sharing, right? That that's the the chaplaincy ministry is like, we talk about sharing the cloak of compassion, right? And holding a person's and I could tell you a cool story about that. That's we can get to that later. You're holding that person's pain. Well, some of it's just so nasty. I like and I don't mean anything bad when I say this, but I felt dirty afterwards hearing because it was just like, it was icky, right? And so I'm thinking about

Joshua Hoffert (24:23.468)
Okay, right.

Joshua Hoffert (24:36.32)
Right. Right.

Jeremy Males (24:41.726)
these people that I'm working with, people just like you and I, only they've been through maybe some worse stuff than some of us have. And they're crying out to God the same way the people of Israel were. And so I think kind of at the heart of chaplaincy ministry, and even bring some of the spiritual direction stuff in with it, you are in that moment, bringing to them that message, I am is

is with you, right? And so we're very, in a very, very tangible way being Christ being God to them in that moment. And so, you know, it's a burning bush experience for them in some in some cases, because they encounter. Well, yeah, maybe I don't want to take it that far, you know, every every analogy begins to fall apart after a while. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (25:11.456)
Right. Right. Right.

Joshua Hoffert (25:21.313)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (25:29.268)
Just you're the burning bush.

Joshua Hoffert (25:36.652)
in a way, right? That's the incarnation. He, he, he manifests himself through people. So yeah, when he didn't have anybody, he used a bush, but now he has Jeremy and you go into the bush. you know,

Jeremy Males (25:42.526)
Yeah. And so.

Jeremy Males (25:48.392)
Yeah, yeah. So, they have those moments where all of a sudden they realize that the ground they stand on is holy and that God is with them in those moments. And some of it's just been, like, really, really powerful. I guess situation just last week, sat down with a client that had been away from shelter for a long time. She was an alcoholic and,

Joshua Hoffert (25:58.582)
right.

Jeremy Males (26:13.993)
She had done well for a while and then she fell back into the addiction and messed her life up more than she ever had before. So I want to sit down and meet with me. And so I sat down and again, spiritual direction stuff, of the elements of spiritual direction is to be, to listen, right? And so it's listening to them and it's listening to Holy Spirit. And so the conversation is not just between them and me. The conversation is a three-way conversation. It's God speaking to them. It's God speaking to me.

it's, it's, you know, me speaking with the other person, but a lot of it's just listening. And so she's telling me this story. Yeah, sorry. Yeah. so, she, she's talking about the shame and the guilt that she's walking in. And, you know, we talked for a while about that and what was going on. And she just says, you know what? I hate myself. I have so much self loathing. Right. And,

Joshua Hoffert (26:49.388)
Can you move a little closer to the mic by the way? Just yeah, that's all right.

Jeremy Males (27:13.641)
And at one point I said, well, you know what? Are you willing to go before God? Because you've had this faith in the past. Are you willing to go for God and ask him to forgive you for some of the lies that you believe? You've asked him for forgiveness for the things that you feel like you really messed up on. Are you asking him to, are you willing to ask him to forgive you for believing these lies, the shame that's been brought upon you by the enemy? And she said, sure. And I said, do you want me to lead you in that?

And she says, sure. So I started to lead her in a prayer and I told her right before we started, said, if any time you just want to take over, you take over. Right. And so I started to lead her in a prayer of confession and she did that. And then I was about to say something else. And then all of a sudden, a bunch of other stuff came out of her mouth and she started asking God about this other stuff. And and I'm thinking in my head, I'm going, God, this is great. She's reconnecting with you. And I asked her afterwards, I said, do you feel any different?

after that, because normally people feel like the load's been lifted off, right? They've experienced that sacred ground with God and they feel like they're in a better headspace, they feel lighter. She says, no, I don't feel any better at all. I'm like, God, what do I do with this, right? Well, and one of the things we say in spiritual direction is, know, sometimes people get messed up in the process of opening up their heart and

Joshua Hoffert (28:28.426)
Yeah, what did I do wrong? Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (28:40.587)
Right.

Jeremy Males (28:40.637)
we're not there to fix them. That's not our job, right? And a lot of the major work in spiritual direction happens between meetings, not in the meeting itself, right? Like the spiritual direction session. I walked away from that really confused. Well, I saw her the next day in the dining room and I just at the shelter and I said, hey, how are you doing? She gets this big beaming smile on her face. She goes, I got to give you a hug. And she gets up, she gives me a big hug. I'm like, what's going on? She goes, you're never going to believe this. She says,

Joshua Hoffert (28:50.742)
Of course. Yeah.

Jeremy Males (29:10.353)
about two hours after you and I talked, all of a sudden, all my self-hatred lifted. And she said, I went, sat in on some recovery meetings and I started to share and I was honest and open. And she said, I hadn't been doing that. And I'm interested in being involved in this again. And I sense the presence of God again and I'm just in this totally different place, right? And so it's just like, they have these moments. And again, it didn't happen when I was reading with her, I was like,

Joshua Hoffert (29:32.15)
Wow.

Joshua Hoffert (29:40.456)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Males (29:40.615)
Why not? And yet, and yet two hours later, she had that experience with God where God just looked at him.

Joshua Hoffert (29:47.722)
Right. So when it comes to when it comes to the intersection there, what are what are some common practices that you use? And do find them helpful with people? You you said you talked about pre discipleship, essentially, right? And defining the defining the journey as when there's even an interest. So what are some of the practices that you find really helpful, especially engaging with that with that?

Jeremy Males (29:48.647)
Right. Yeah.

Jeremy Males (29:54.046)
Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Males (30:01.82)
Absolutely.

Jeremy Males (30:08.169)
Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Males (30:14.759)
Okay.

Joshua Hoffert (30:17.386)
that particular type of that crowd of people.

Jeremy Males (30:20.851)
Yeah, so I would say this, I don't think people necessarily recognize this in general unless you've worked in frontline stuff like this, but people who are experiencing homelessness, addiction, mental health, oftentimes they're very deeply spiritual people to begin with. They have a level of faith in God that would dwarf ours. They just have an experience.

Joshua Hoffert (30:40.522)
Okay, right.

Joshua Hoffert (30:45.886)
Right. They don't have the luxury of being a they don't have the luxury of being atheists. Right.

Jeremy Males (30:49.929)
Yeah, you know, they say there's no atheist in foxholes, right? It's that type of thing. When you don't know where your next meal is coming from, you don't know where you're to stay. I think the high temperature today was, not Northern Canada cold, but with the wind chills at minus 24 today. I think it was like minus 28 overnight or something like that, right? Yeah, and we have people, and they don't know where they're necessarily going to go.

Joshua Hoffert (30:52.234)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (31:08.224)
That's that's pretty cold. Okay. Like you don't have to make any apologies for that. That's cold.

Joshua Hoffert (31:18.326)
Right.

Jeremy Males (31:18.441)
they will reach out to God and they'll go back to the things they learned as children, right? But I think, you know, talking about the practices, they're very deeply spiritual people. And my thinking is this, when people finally come to that place where they recognize that they need God, I mean, I think you would agree with me on this, people's hearts are regenerated before they ever say a prayer. You know what I mean?

because God's done something. And so I always approach every situation as if God could speak at any time. And I don't worry about praying the prayers with people because I think that's kind of like a 19th century, 20th century thing, know, ask Jesus into your heart type of thing. But often when I'm meeting with people, I find that getting them to close their eyes and begin to take some deep breaths.

That's one of the first things I always do with people because we know, scientifically, that when you begin to breathe slowly, it calms you down. In fact, the last thing you and you take the deeper breaths you take, the more it calms you down. And one of the things I learned a while back is when you take a deep breath, that's the last thing you do before you fall asleep at night, is you take a deep breath, right? They call it a parasympathetic response.

Joshua Hoffert (32:29.697)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (32:43.382)
Yep. Yep.

Jeremy Males (32:43.58)
So I think that's one of the things I do. And the other thing I do as I'll ask people, I'll get them to put their hands out in front of them or on their lap, right? And I tell them, there's nothing magical about this. This is about you physically putting yourself in a position of saying, I want to receive from God. And I mean, are these major practices? No, but they're little things that I think make a huge difference with people.

Joshua Hoffert (32:49.836)
Okay.

Joshua Hoffert (33:01.996)
Sure. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (33:10.272)
Yeah, enough to set the context around something entirely different. Yeah.

Jeremy Males (33:13.32)
Yep. Yep. And then I asked them to, I will always ask them to pray very, very bold prayers. Like, you know, if there's a person who does not feel loved, they will say, Hey, you know what, take a moment. And they could do it in their head, but I would say, you know what, there's something to be said about your desire to experience God when you're willing to speak it out loud. So just, you know, ask us, ask God simple prayer, just say, God, can you show me that you love me today? Right?

I don't think we're to palms up palms down. So it's an exercise, right? So I'll do that with people sometimes. one of the practice

Joshua Hoffert (33:47.434)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. Fill me with your light life and love and help me to release everything that you know. Yeah. Yeah. Consolation desolation, you know, that kind of stuff. Yeah.

Jeremy Males (33:56.79)
Exactly. Yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah. And again, that's another thing I spend time with them on is asking them to like, we'll do a prayer of examine with people. And I've done that in recovery with recovery groups an awful lot. And generally, find, amazingly, it works. As far as I'm concerned, generally, the people who are most interested in spirituality tend to be people who are in recovery.

Joshua Hoffert (34:10.633)
Okay, right, right.

Jeremy Males (34:31.11)
because the ones that are 12 step programs, it's about, you know, this power greater than themselves. And which, which, mean, I'm unapologetically Christian, everybody that I work with in recovery circles knows that. So when I talk about God, they know I'm talking about the Judeo Christian God. But, you know, when their first three steps of their program are, you know, I recognize that I'm powerless over my addiction, right? Step two is

Joshua Hoffert (34:37.6)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (34:44.972)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (34:48.907)
Right, right.

Jeremy Males (34:59.698)
came to realize that a power greater than myself could restore me to sanity. And step three is I turn my life and will over to God. And they say God as I understand them, which I don't like the language particularly, but it's this idea of submitting to God, right? So they have these different prayers that they pray in each one of those steps and different practices. The whole idea of making amends, right? It's actually the process of going through forgiveness, you know, and asking, like making a list and then saying,

Joshua Hoffert (35:03.04)
Right.

Joshua Hoffert (35:16.374)
Right, right.

Jeremy Males (35:29.522)
to somebody, know, I did this to you and it was wrong because will you forgive me? It's basically the same thing we do with our kids and I told them, right? So they're used to these types of practices. So when you do something like this with them, they're generally very, very open to it. So prayer of examine I've used every Monday for chapel. I've been doing this since my spiritual direction training. There's an app called Lectio 365. I don't know if you've heard it, heard about it, right?

Joshua Hoffert (35:37.632)
Right? Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (35:56.81)
Yep. Yep. have. Yep.

Jeremy Males (35:58.793)
the prayer 24 seven movement. I use that app in chapel every Monday. The other one I use sometimes as well is the Pray As You Go app, which is a Catholic version of same type of thing. Yeah. Yeah. And I have a number of clients who will come on Mondays specifically because they know we're going to do that. And so obviously,

Joshua Hoffert (36:10.443)
Okay, I'm not sure I'm not familiar with that one. I know the lectio 365 one.

Jeremy Males (36:26.498)
Lectio 365 is kind of a little bit of prayer, a little bit of Lectio Divina type of thing. And that happens to be a very, very, I think, impactful practice for people as well. Sure, I what else? I think I some other stuff on my mind that's left me now. anyway, yeah, so I find people are very open.

Joshua Hoffert (36:32.896)
Right.

Jeremy Males (36:54.514)
to these types of ideas. I've done centering prayer with clients in recovery and stuff as well. I've done that outside of recovery circles as well. And I find, again, people are open, generally open to new things. There's not a lot of people I come across that are not interested in these types of things. At the very least, I think I can count on

two hands, no sorry, not two hands, like two fingers, maybe three, the number of times people have said, no, I don't want you to pray for me, right? Generally people say, yeah, please pray for me, right? I actually had one situation once where I had a woman who was a Wiccan was sitting with me and at the end of our time I said, can I pray for you? She says, yeah, if you let me pray for you first. And I went, sure, go ahead. I'm not worried about whatever you're gonna pray. In my head, I didn't say that to her in my head. I'm going, yeah, go ahead, pray for me. Yeah, right.

Joshua Hoffert (37:31.85)
Right, right.

Joshua Hoffert (37:47.699)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Males (37:53.828)
And that was a weird experience, but then I prayed for her afterwards and that was pretty cool. yeah, anyway. Not that I'm aware of. That several years ago, so.

Joshua Hoffert (37:58.719)
Right, right. You weren't, she didn't, you weren't cursed with some juju. Yeah. that's why you're so weird. No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's so, in the, in the journey of working with people, what are some of the, the successes and failures, when it comes to helping them grow and implementing spiritual practices, that kind of stuff.

Jeremy Males (38:09.692)
That's right, yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Males (38:29.148)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Hoffert (38:30.239)
that you're free to share. know, obviously, these are people's personal stories, right?

Jeremy Males (38:32.584)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Males (38:38.632)
man, that's a strong think of some good stories to tell. well, well, certainly, when, when I put some of these practices into people's hands, like prayer of examine, or even just the lectio divina stuff, they practiced it on their own, and then they've come back and they've, you know, they've had these kind of these really, like, incredible experiences with God.

And I always ask them about it because I want to know if they're kind of gone off in left field or something. But they come back having understood and heard from God. And the things that they're hearing from God are not things that the devil would say to them. and actually, you'll really appreciate. Yes, yeah, actually, you'll appreciate this. There's one guy that I've been working with for a while who is well, when I first met him, probably about a year ago, he was very

Joshua Hoffert (39:12.043)
Sure, sure.

Joshua Hoffert (39:20.298)
Right.

Right. Sure. Right. They're theologically grounded in that sense. Yeah.

Jeremy Males (39:40.344)
dogmatically atheist and hostile towards me. And I think he dealt with a lot of Christians who've been hostile with him. Justin, and he and I have had lot of conversations and stuff. And I enjoy apologetics a lot. So I love having conversations with people about those things. But he has just recently started listening to Gregorian chants, I guess, in Greek or something like that. And he says that he's connecting with them at more than a physical level.

Joshua Hoffert (39:42.771)
Okay, right? Right.

Jeremy Males (40:07.912)
And so he's becoming aware of the presence. Exactly, right? And I mean, like, he's a guy who's come to mind, like I run this program called God Talk, where we just we talk about spirituality, we talk about spiritual practices. And he's been coming to that regularly. And there's just been this softening. And he's not hostile at all anymore. He's willing to talk, right. And I got to have that last conversation I was able to share with what salvation really was.

Joshua Hoffert (40:10.123)
That's not an atheist anymore.

Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (40:22.613)
Sure.

Joshua Hoffert (40:30.473)
Right. Yeah, that's wow. Right.

Jeremy Males (40:39.237)
But when you talk about failures, man, that's a hard one. I don't know if my brain just blocks all the failures out over the years or what.

Joshua Hoffert (40:49.739)
or Well, there's people that that probably anyway that you don't we don't have to talk about the failures. I know, given the the dynamic of the kind of work that you do. There's a lot of people that slip back into no even even at one point the story you shared about the woman who was an alcoholic who had the shame removed at one point she was a failure, right? She slipped out of the system and

Jeremy Males (41:14.811)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I do what Josh, I was just gonna say I God has blessed me with some really, really good analogies to use with people over the years. And the one that I use with people who have lapsed back into addiction, or they've had a bender or something like that. As I talked to them about running the hurdles, right?

Joshua Hoffert (41:19.467)
didn't come back. there's lots of Yeah, I'm wondering, so yeah, go ahead.

Joshua Hoffert (41:32.704)
Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Males (41:44.761)
in the Olympics. I said, you know, when a person runs the hurdles, I said, if they knock a hurdle over, do they go back to the beginning and start again? They say no. I said, you're right. They stand up, they brush themselves off and they continue. It may add a little bit of extra time to the end of the race, but they can still finish. That's one of these analogies. Absolutely, right. And, and, you know, another one I, yeah, another one I use is I ask people, are you a

Joshua Hoffert (41:56.907)
That's right.

Joshua Hoffert (42:00.959)
Yeah, they could knock every hurdle over and they can still finish. Yeah. Yeah. It's good analogy.

Jeremy Males (42:13.0)
an eight ball juggler or a three ball juggler because they're overwhelmed with all the things in life that they're trying to do, right? They're trying to get housing. They're trying to get their meds worked out. They're trying to, you know, get custody of the kids. They're trying to do all these things. They're overwhelmed. said, but are you an eight ball juggler or three ball juggler? And they look at me like I got three eyes and I say, well, think about it this way. There are only so many balls that you can hold up in a day and a week and a month. And I just say to them, you need to ask God.

Joshua Hoffert (42:20.341)
Right.

Jeremy Males (42:43.119)
which ones he's asking you to hold up and hold on to you. And you need to put the rest down because God will take care of those in his way. Right? So anyway, that's kind of a side thing, but

Joshua Hoffert (42:46.603)
Totally.

Joshua Hoffert (42:50.655)
Yeah, yeah, that's really good. So when you're when you're talking about a prayer of examine, I think a lot of the listeners would know what that is. But between prayer of examine and lecto divina, you've referenced both of those as spiritual practices. One. So one, could you define both of them in a general sense and kind of give an overview of what you would do with that? And two, do you adapt them for the particular work you're doing versus when you're

Jeremy Males (42:57.777)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Okay.

Joshua Hoffert (43:19.999)
counseling or mentoring or discipling someone in the home church that you're part of, right? What's the differences between using them in the chaplaincy context and using them in a church context? So defining them first and what they look like a little bit.

Jeremy Males (43:25.862)
Yeah.

Jeremy Males (43:31.685)
Okay, yeah. Okay, so let's start with the Lectio Divina. So, Lectio Divina is, I think that comes from the Latin like divine reading, something like that, sacred reading, holy reading, something along that line. And it's this idea that we take just a short passage of Scripture, and we begin to read it over and over again. And as we're listening to it, reading it, like I tend to you,

Joshua Hoffert (43:45.738)
Yeah, it does.

Jeremy Males (44:01.456)
If I'm using the app, the app just reads it a couple times as part of that thing. But sometimes I'll just take a passage and I'll read it to them over and over again. what I encourage them to do is look for what sticks out. The term we use in spiritual attractions, looking for the shimmer. What is it that kind of goes, ooh, you just, right? And then I, yeah, yeah. And so then you spend some time asking God why.

Joshua Hoffert (44:04.651)
Sure, Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (44:19.307)
Okay, right. Right. I like that term looking for the shimmer. Yeah.

Jeremy Males (44:30.971)
Did you point that out to me? Right. And, and again, because I people who are coming from different views on spirituality, different views of God, again, they know that my view is the Judeo-Christian view of God, they may not be that. And I basically just take my hands off of trying to control that, because God's God's big enough to convince him that he's true. But you always know when they've heard from

Joshua Hoffert (44:45.589)
Right, right.

Jeremy Males (45:01.391)
Judeo-Christian God, if you will, because what they say is in line with the Word of God. And it's again, not something the devil would say, right? And so I get them to ask God that question. And then as they begin to get an answer to that, you know, I begin to ask them kind of the question of what is it that God's given you a reason for why he shared this with you.

Joshua Hoffert (45:07.541)
All right. Right, right, right.

Jeremy Males (45:30.491)
What is it now that God wants to teach you from this? Right? That's kind of it. And yeah. And then after spending some time on that, how would you turn that into a prayer back to God? Like, God helped me to do this today based upon that. So there's, it becomes kind of like the application type of thing, right? And I don't do this always, but when I do it in a situation where I'm actually reading the passage for them, I will actually give time afterwards for them to share what is it you saw or that you heard.

Joshua Hoffert (45:32.969)
Right, sure. Sure.

Joshua Hoffert (45:40.404)
Okay. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (45:46.175)
Right, right, right.

Jeremy Males (45:59.109)
or you think God was saying to you. I'm not generally gives me an idea of how well it's worked or how well it hasn't worked. But I think, again, dealing with it, dealing with people in shelter, knowing that there's addiction and they could be, you know, in the midst of a trip at the time, they could have mental health stuff, you just gotta be really, really gracious because sometimes they say things that are weird. Sometimes they say things that might not be totally right.

but trying to correct them in those moments is not building any trust. It's not allowing, it's not allowing you to build relationship with them. and, sometimes they'll come back after school, you know, I, I really don't know that I heard right about that, or you may have a conversation with them later where you can eat it. Right. so when you're dealing with an audience like that, I think it's just be really, really gracious, right. realize that there, a lot of them are unchurched.

Joshua Hoffert (46:31.273)
Right, right.

Joshua Hoffert (46:43.955)
Right, right. Sure. Sure.

Jeremy Males (46:56.506)
They don't have the knowledge that you and I would have been, know, in churches for a long time or having the education that we had. But God does speak.

Joshua Hoffert (47:04.831)
Yeah. Well, and that can produce a whole other host of issues, people thinking they know everything right, right. But yeah, that's excellent. Just letting them the father can work out all that stuff. Right? Yeah.

Jeremy Males (47:09.732)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Jeremy Males (47:17.188)
Yeah. Well, you know, I just and this is something going back to something you talked about earlier with that dream you had about me solving homelessness. We just finished a book on our leadership team, the new Brene Brownbrook called Strong Ground. And one of the stories she talks about and that's how she went into this place that solves or that that works towards curing cancer and they will they will take anybody regardless of their financial situation, regardless of their creed, their

Joshua Hoffert (47:33.992)
Okay, yeah.

Jeremy Males (47:47.334)
you know, their background because they want to help them. Right. So she went into this building to interview and she was, I think getting into an elevator or something and she saw a woman there who had a cart and she had like one of the hair net things on the cart had all sorts of food on it. And she asked her, what do you do here? And she said, we cure cancer. And, know, I said to my boss the other day, we were talking about this. And I said, you know what? That struck me because I think our part of our goal.

at the shelter we worked at is to cure homelessness. And what would it, what type of impact would it have on our staff and our clients if we were all able to say our job here is to solve homelessness? Yeah, right. So.

Joshua Hoffert (48:29.309)
interesting, right? Right. And it's not you're not. Yeah, I like that because you're not saying, you know, on a on a governmental societal level, we're going to get people into homes. But the the the problem of mental health addiction and the cycle of homelessness and brokenness that's in there. We solve this for you. Right? That's a that's Yeah, that's a fantastic way of saying that.

Jeremy Males (48:44.518)
Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Males (48:56.25)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (48:59.497)
What about what about? Yeah, prayer of examine just a short a short overview.

Jeremy Males (49:01.958)
Career Examiner.

Yeah, so prayer examines basically, I would say like five steps. First of all, we spend some time in like silently. And then we have people just to begin to think, like again, this is done silently, but you do it as a group, or you can do it on your own if you want. You spend some time in gratitude. So whatever God brings to mind, as far as being grateful for, and it could be something simple as that first sip of coffee in the morning, right?

Joshua Hoffert (49:22.379)
Yes,

Jeremy Males (49:33.658)
to, hey, I got a raise today at work, right? Yeah, sometimes that first sip of coffee is better than a raise, at least at that moment. So you start listing all of those things because that puts you in a head space of, okay, God, I know you're with me because I'm seeing all these ways that you have blessed me today, right? So you spend some time with that and then you begin.

Joshua Hoffert (49:34.155)
That is, that is a nice one. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (49:41.424)
Yeah. Yeah. That's right.

Joshua Hoffert (49:53.727)
Right, right.

Jeremy Males (50:01.199)
to ask God for consolations and desolations. You referenced that earlier, do I need to explain that? Okay, do I? Yeah. So consolations, we would say, are those moments, those things that draw us to the presence of God. So it could be like a hug from your kid. It could be a moment where someone said something really nice to you or really encouraged. Or again, it could be, you're sitting, looking out your office window and you see this beautiful.

Joshua Hoffert (50:04.841)
Yeah. Yep. Y'all explain it. Yeah. Just, just, just, yeah. Explain it. Yeah.

Jeremy Males (50:30.604)
sunset or sunrise or whatever that type of thing, right? Those are moments where you're drawn to the presence of God. Anything that shows you love or forgiveness or grace or mercy, those would be consolations. Desolations are the opposite of that, things that are causing you to flee the presence of God, fear, anxiety, know, someone says something nasty to you. And so you kind of just begin to allow God, you don't try, right? Trying is not what we're doing here. It's like,

Joshua Hoffert (50:33.449)
Yeah, yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (50:48.309)
Right, right, right.

Jeremy Males (50:58.65)
God, what do you want to show me? Show me the consolations and desolations. Trusting that he's going to show you the stuff that's most impactful for your day. And so you kind of list those out in your mind. And then the next step would be to focus on a consolation or desolation. And you begin to say, God, where were you in that? Right? That's an especially helpful question in a desolation, because it's like, where were you in that moment? Because I felt terrible. I like crap in that

Joshua Hoffert (51:03.883)
Right. Yeah. Right.

Joshua Hoffert (51:17.003)
Yeah, right. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (51:21.867)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Males (51:25.062)
So you pick one, you begin to focus on it a little bit, and allow God to speak to you about it. And then the exercise ends with you again, this into a prayer, whatever the consolation or the desolation was, you know, how do you turn to prayer? God help me to be aware the next time I'm starting to feel fearful or anxious or that type of thing. And really, and the point of the exam more than anything is that it begins

Joshua Hoffert (51:41.865)
Right. Right.

Joshua Hoffert (51:45.961)
Yeah, that's no that's good. That's a good description. Yeah.

Jeremy Males (51:53.616)
to build self-awareness and it begins to help you be more aware of God in every moment of your life, which is a huge boon to your everyday life, right? Yeah. Okay, so what was the second part of the question after that? You wanted me to describe them.

Joshua Hoffert (52:03.517)
Right, right, yeah, right.

Joshua Hoffert (52:10.633)
The, does, how, how does it shift between,

Joshua Hoffert (52:20.639)
the church and like, yeah, how does what's the difference between employing that in a chaplaincy homelessness and then you're in your home church discipling mentoring leading? Does the context change the language change? How do you implement those two things? Right? Or is there is it just like, it's the same across the board.

Jeremy Males (52:24.886)
yeah, yeah, okay.

Jeremy Males (52:40.516)
What?

Jeremy Males (52:43.845)
Well, first, my experience tends to be, this is my experience, it may not be everyone's, but my experience tends to be that my clients in the shelter are better at these things than people who been sitting in the church for a long time. I mean, you mentioned earlier this idea that we're rediscovering something that's been an ancient practice. And I would actually say that the whole spiritual direction thing,

Joshua Hoffert (53:00.415)
Right?

Jeremy Males (53:12.021)
we're rediscovering it really in the North American church, the Western church. The Eastern church seems to have held on to these practices a lot more. And I think the Catholic church to some degree as well. But the Protestant church doesn't do these things as much. And so I think, again, you mentioned earlier, like discipleship is, you know, go to church, read your Bible. And you've mentioned one other thing. Anyway, we stack in chairs. That's right. Yeah, go stack chairs. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (53:33.803)
stack stack chairs. Yeah, we all know what that thing. So necessary evil.

Jeremy Males (53:41.829)
Yeah. And so I think they tend to struggle with it a little bit more. Whereas people who are and again, I'm not saying people in churches aren't desperate for God. But people in dire straits tend to be more desperate for God. Right. And I got one client she comes in when we do this, the the lectio divina thing, lectio 365 app every Monday, she is my most regular person there. She she's generally for all of our travels.

Joshua Hoffert (53:55.605)
Sure. Yeah, sure.

Jeremy Males (54:11.174)
but she never misses the Monday and she comes in, she's got trauma. She was part of a more of a cult type of church in the past and she loves coming in because it's quiet and because she can just connect with God and pray. And so I think my experience is generally people are really desperate, which tends to be with my clients.

Joshua Hoffert (54:13.451)
Alright.

Joshua Hoffert (54:27.819)
Thanks

Jeremy Males (54:39.333)
they buy in a lot easier. In terms of language, I use terms like consolation and desolation in both contexts, and I explain them in both contexts. And so I don't know that the language necessarily changes for me. Sometimes you have to explain some, again, I think I have to explain it in both contexts. Now, as far as our house church is concerned,

Joshua Hoffert (55:02.826)
Yeah, sure.

Jeremy Males (55:07.333)
I normally start off our house church meetings with just being silent before we enter into worship. In fact, actually, even before that, we start off with everybody, I asked them a couple of questions. Where did you experience God this week? Where were you challenged this week? Where did you feel you were, right? And exactly, right? No, don't do it in the same context as examine, right? But it's the same basic thing.

Joshua Hoffert (55:12.959)
Right. Right.

Joshua Hoffert (55:22.923)
sure. Those are good questions. Yeah. I mean, that's examined right there. Basically. Yeah.

Jeremy Males (55:36.081)
and actually just in the last couple of months, we have the leadership, my, my wife and I, and the other couple, we decided that we want to make spiritual practices kind of become part of our, our, our house church meetings, like formally part of our house church meetings, not just here and there. So we're starting off each house church with, like a spiritual practice type of thing. Right. So, yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (56:00.009)
Right, Yeah, well, that's, yeah, that's wonderful. I love that.

Jeremy Males (56:04.997)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (56:08.829)
Yeah, so it in in I think it's very telling and very predictable that people are more it's it's like damage control prayer. Right? The the one of their desert fathers says the more desperate than sensed need, the shorter the prayer becomes.

Jeremy Males (56:27.279)
Mm.

Jeremy Males (56:38.221)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (56:39.071)
you know, and he uses the example of a house on fire. If the house is on fire, you say help. Right?

Jeremy Males (56:43.119)
Mm.

Jeremy Males (56:47.878)
Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing. Actually, actually, Josh, I would I would say this one of the things that people struggle with and I think it happens in the church and maybe as much or more amongst the clientele and the shelter and stuff. They don't know how to pray. They don't know how to pray. Right. And I keep telling people

Joshua Hoffert (56:50.325)
Yeah, that's the.

Joshua Hoffert (57:08.287)
Yeah, that was a, that was true. Man. Yeah, go ahead. I just have a thought, but go ahead.

Jeremy Males (57:13.285)
Yeah, it's simply this. I tell people, you're going to pray to God. You're to talk to God like you're talking to me. God is more concerned about your heart than he is about the words that you use. And, and, you know, I remind them of what the scripture says about, know, the spirit is groaning, you know, making sense of the stuff that we can't even verbally put into words.

Joshua Hoffert (57:38.975)
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right.

Jeremy Males (57:42.127)
I just tell people God wants to hear you speak. And the one thing I tell them, people will say, well, I pray in my head all the time. I said, yes, but when you pray out loud, it's a greater act of intimacy because God can already read your thoughts. But when you're willing to speak them out to God, you're saying, God, I want you to know them, right? And that's a huge thing for people, right? Anyway, you would have thought.

Joshua Hoffert (57:45.291)
Yeah.

Joshua Hoffert (57:58.037)
That's good. Right. Right.

Joshua Hoffert (58:04.587)
you know, I remember. Yeah, I well I remembered when I first set out. I read my Bible. It was 20 years ago 25 years ago, something like that. I was like 20 years ago. It like, I think I need to read the whole Bible. I hadn't done it, you know, the 20s. So I sat down and read the Bible every day I read. And it took me six months, eight months, 10 months, something like that. Read through the whole thing. Then I thought, okay, I finally I've conquered that one. Now I'm to start to

pray. And we're sitting down in the morning, actually reading the Bible through was a way was what finally convinced me I was a morning person and not a night person because I just fall asleep at night. And so so I sat down to pray in the first day that I sat on a prayer I lasted about 30 seconds and then just picked the Bible up and started reading again. Right, because it was just too difficult. Right, I didn't know what to do. And

Jeremy Males (58:45.752)
Me too.

Joshua Hoffert (59:02.741)
So that I love practices like the examine like, to Divina because, because there could be too much of an adherence to the practice itself. Right. But it gives us a form to present ourselves and to understand the journey. Right. I have a,

Jeremy Males (59:19.46)
Mm.

Joshua Hoffert (59:23.179)
you know, Orthodox prayer rope, right, and I will sometimes I'll use it to pray through Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me. I don't use it all the time. But I find sometimes when I'm distracted, when I'm preoccupied, it can be really helpful to center my thoughts again. And so any kind of any of those tools that help, right? I find to be helpful.

Jeremy Males (59:26.556)
Yeah, yep.

Joshua Hoffert (59:51.167)
Yeah. Well, Jeremy, I unfortunately have other meetings to go to. want to continue, but we'll have to do a follow up and talk more about this kind of stuff and how it plays out in personal discipleship as well. and on a personal level, you know, what are the, what are the great moments of impact in your life? And, but I love that you're applying the practices of formation in various different contexts.

Jeremy Males (01:00:10.916)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Hoffert (01:00:19.795)
And seeing successful results in terms of how people are connecting with the father. That's a wonderful thing. And so I bless that my friend and how beautiful the work that you're doing is. And yeah, so thanks for coming on. And I hope anybody that you've been listening, you can check out the, the LC, you guys have a website, right? I guess we I'm on your board or I'll say if I.org, you can check it out there. If you're in the London,

Jeremy Males (01:00:30.18)
Thank you, Ben.

Jeremy Males (01:00:44.13)
Yeah, LCFI.org.

Joshua Hoffert (01:00:48.605)
Ontario area. You can find you can find them website or you can find information on the website there. So I'll link to that as well. And and if you need to get ahold of Jeremy for some some help, you know, maybe he'll be there for you. Yeah, that's right. So bless you, my friend. And everybody that's listening bless you. And until next time.

Jeremy Males (01:01:04.196)
My number's there. Yep, right on. Thanks, buddy.

Jeremy Males (01:01:13.252)
Have a good one.

Joshua Hoffert (01:01:14.099)
Yes.