{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":0.049,"endTime":2.479,"body":"every organizational"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":0.049,"endTime":2.479,"body":"leader has sat down at some"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2.479,"endTime":3.689,"body":"point to think about two things."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":4.149,"endTime":5.849,"body":"One, should I reorg?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":6.109,"endTime":8.969,"body":"And two, what are the values and"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":6.109,"endTime":8.969,"body":"principles of my organization?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":9.369,"endTime":12.139,"body":"When we do that, We"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":9.369,"endTime":12.139,"body":"often ask ourselves what"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":12.139,"endTime":12.889,"body":"we're optimizing for."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":12.889,"endTime":14.539,"body":"That's a very"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":12.889,"endTime":14.539,"body":"reasonable question."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":14.819,"endTime":20.309,"body":"What we don't ask is, what"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":14.819,"endTime":20.309,"body":"do we do with the things"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":20.369,"endTime":21.439,"body":"that we're repressing?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":22.599,"endTime":23.879,"body":"How are we going to"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":22.599,"endTime":23.879,"body":"reconcile with that?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":23.88,"endTime":26.581,"body":"Or"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":26.581,"endTime":29.461,"body":"What's the"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":26.581,"endTime":29.461,"body":"impact of AI generated code."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":29.941,"endTime":30.961,"body":"How can you measure it?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":31.711,"endTime":34.291,"body":"Join linear B and"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":31.711,"endTime":34.291,"body":"ThoughtWorks global head"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":34.291,"endTime":35.521,"body":"of AI software delivery."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":35.731,"endTime":39.631,"body":"As we explore the metrics that"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":35.731,"endTime":39.631,"body":"measure the impact gen AI has on"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":39.631,"endTime":42.901,"body":"the software delivery process in"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":39.631,"endTime":42.901,"body":"is first of its kind workshop."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":43.681,"endTime":47.281,"body":"We'll share new data insights"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":43.681,"endTime":47.281,"body":"from our gen AI impact report."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":47.731,"endTime":50.131,"body":"Case studies into how teams"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":47.731,"endTime":50.131,"body":"are successfully leveraging"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":50.131,"endTime":53.551,"body":"gen AI impact measurements,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":50.131,"endTime":53.551,"body":"including adoption"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":53.611,"endTime":55.171,"body":"benefits and risk metrics."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":55.591,"endTime":58.651,"body":"Plus a live demo of how you"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":55.591,"endTime":58.651,"body":"can measure the impact of"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":58.651,"endTime":60.241,"body":"your gen AI initiative today."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":60.81,"endTime":63.18,"body":"Register at linear bead"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":60.81,"endTime":63.18,"body":"at IO slash events."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":63.57,"endTime":67.35,"body":"And join us January 25th,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":63.57,"endTime":67.35,"body":"January 30th, or on demand"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":67.41,"endTime":70.65,"body":"to start measuring the ROI of"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":67.41,"endTime":70.65,"body":"your gen AI initiative today."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":71.248,"endTime":72.588,"body":"Welcome back to Dev Interrupted."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":72.618,"endTime":74.218,"body":"I'm your host, Conor Bronsdon."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":74.218,"endTime":76.838,"body":"And today I'm joined by"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":74.218,"endTime":76.838,"body":"David Yeat, VP of engineering"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":76.848,"endTime":78.548,"body":"at this little company"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":76.848,"endTime":78.548,"body":"called the New York Times."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":78.568,"endTime":79.698,"body":"We're going"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":78.568,"endTime":79.698,"body":"to make it someday."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":79.758,"endTime":80.788,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":79.758,"endTime":80.788,"body":"I believe in you."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":80.788,"endTime":82.438,"body":"This regional paper is scrappy."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":82.868,"endTime":85.598,"body":"Um, the amazing thing about"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":82.868,"endTime":85.598,"body":"your career, David, is"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":85.608,"endTime":88.498,"body":"you've scaled both small"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":85.608,"endTime":88.498,"body":"organizations and frankly,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":88.508,"endTime":92.698,"body":"enormous ones in the world of"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":88.508,"endTime":92.698,"body":"journalism, music, and art."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":93.108,"endTime":96.228,"body":"And you have an emphasis on"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":93.108,"endTime":96.228,"body":"product oriented engineering"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":96.238,"endTime":98.438,"body":"and humane management,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":96.238,"endTime":98.438,"body":"as I've heard described."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":98.893,"endTime":102.663,"body":"And that diverse perspective"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":98.893,"endTime":102.663,"body":"has led you to identify"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":102.663,"endTime":106.543,"body":"something that you think is that"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":102.663,"endTime":106.543,"body":"organizations all have a shadow."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":107.123,"endTime":108.413,"body":"Can you define what that means?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":108.783,"endTime":111.713,"body":"Yeah, so what's"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":108.783,"endTime":111.713,"body":"interesting about talking about"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":111.723,"endTime":114.803,"body":"organizations is we sort of"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":111.723,"endTime":114.803,"body":"define like what they look like."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":115.063,"endTime":117.273,"body":"So if you think about like the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":115.063,"endTime":117.273,"body":"values that an organization"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":117.283,"endTime":119.603,"body":"has or its org chart, these"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":117.283,"endTime":119.603,"body":"are all things that you see."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":120.073,"endTime":123.263,"body":"But The thing that I've been"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":120.073,"endTime":123.263,"body":"obsessed with is this idea"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":123.263,"endTime":125.323,"body":"that every organization is"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":123.263,"endTime":125.323,"body":"bigger than that, and the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":125.323,"endTime":128.357,"body":"parts that you don't talk"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":125.323,"endTime":128.357,"body":"about still operate, and they"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":128.357,"endTime":129.727,"body":"are excluded for a reason."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":129.727,"endTime":131.907,"body":"So, it's those bits that are"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":129.727,"endTime":131.907,"body":"left on the side that are"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":131.907,"endTime":134.147,"body":"still operating that show"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":131.907,"endTime":134.147,"body":"up in ways that kind of like"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":134.147,"endTime":135.467,"body":"can irritate an organization."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":135.997,"endTime":138.067,"body":". And so the things that I've"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":135.997,"endTime":138.067,"body":"really been thinking about is"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":138.067,"endTime":139.117,"body":"how you bring that together."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":139.387,"endTime":140.677,"body":"What are those bits?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":140.767,"endTime":142.057,"body":"It depends"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":140.767,"endTime":142.057,"body":"on the organization."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":142.297,"endTime":146.16,"body":"So, these things are in"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":142.297,"endTime":146.16,"body":"con, either in conflict"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":146.16,"endTime":147.6,"body":"with the way you operate."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":147.6,"endTime":149.49,"body":"So you could say like, all"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":147.6,"endTime":149.49,"body":"right, well we are the kind"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":149.49,"endTime":152.58,"body":"of organization that makes"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":149.49,"endTime":152.58,"body":"like really crisp decisions."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":152.803,"endTime":154.448,"body":"you know, and everybody"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":152.803,"endTime":154.448,"body":"owns their decision,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":154.448,"endTime":155.258,"body":"something like that."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":155.318,"endTime":157.778,"body":"But there's always gonna be a"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":155.318,"endTime":157.778,"body":"class of decision where people"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":157.778,"endTime":160.058,"body":"are like, oh, well I really"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":157.778,"endTime":160.058,"body":"need to ask a bunch of people,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":160.063,"endTime":161.408,"body":"or We need to agree on this."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":161.643,"endTime":163.853,"body":"That might not be in your"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":161.643,"endTime":163.853,"body":"org values, it might not be"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":164.323,"endTime":167.993,"body":"the way you identify as an"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":164.323,"endTime":167.993,"body":"organization, but it's still"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":167.993,"endTime":169.433,"body":"something you need to do."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":169.453,"endTime":171.373,"body":"And so if you're going"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":169.453,"endTime":171.373,"body":"around trying to make sharp"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":171.373,"endTime":173.213,"body":"decisions about things that"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":171.373,"endTime":173.213,"body":"need consensus, everyone's"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":173.223,"endTime":174.353,"body":"going to get just annoyed."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":174.783,"endTime":176.463,"body":"and so that's an example,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":174.783,"endTime":176.463,"body":"but it shows up in all"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":176.463,"endTime":177.453,"body":"sorts of different ways."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":177.623,"endTime":179.443,"body":"What are"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":177.623,"endTime":179.443,"body":"the impacts of the shadow?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":179.483,"endTime":181.883,"body":"I mean, you mentioned one, but"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":179.483,"endTime":181.883,"body":"it seems like there would be"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":181.883,"endTime":185.023,"body":"a variety of ways this would"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":181.883,"endTime":185.023,"body":"impact different organizations."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":185.403,"endTime":187.253,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":185.403,"endTime":187.253,"body":"generally speaking."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":187.562,"endTime":190.212,"body":"the thing it tends to"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":187.562,"endTime":190.212,"body":"do is cause dysfunction,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":190.222,"endTime":191.202,"body":"slow you down."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":191.432,"endTime":192.732,"body":"And it's not that"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":191.432,"endTime":192.732,"body":"the shadow does that."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":192.732,"endTime":195.952,"body":"It's the fact that you're not"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":192.732,"endTime":195.952,"body":"engaging with it meaningfully."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":195.952,"endTime":198.362,"body":"You're not really acknowledging"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":195.952,"endTime":198.362,"body":"that this is happening."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":198.652,"endTime":204.422,"body":"The example I was giving at"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":198.652,"endTime":204.422,"body":"lunch was when you think of an"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":204.422,"endTime":207.972,"body":"organization, I had this debate"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":204.422,"endTime":207.972,"body":"a couple of years ago with my"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":207.972,"endTime":213.997,"body":"product partner where I said"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":207.972,"endTime":213.997,"body":"we really have to be We have to"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":213.997,"endTime":216.297,"body":"make sound technical decisions."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":216.337,"endTime":218.447,"body":"And my product partner was"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":216.337,"endTime":218.447,"body":"like, we need to move fast,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":218.457,"endTime":220.851,"body":"we don't have time to make"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":218.457,"endTime":220.851,"body":"sound technical decisions."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":221.001,"endTime":223.017,"body":"And so we worked this out,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":221.001,"endTime":223.017,"body":"just the two of us were"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":223.027,"endTime":225.077,"body":"working this out, debating"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":223.027,"endTime":225.077,"body":"back and forth for a long time."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":225.077,"endTime":230.657,"body":"Finally I said, we have to"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":225.077,"endTime":230.657,"body":"move quickly while aiming"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":231.207,"endTime":232.307,"body":"for technical consistency."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":233.487,"endTime":236.087,"body":"Now the result of that debate"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":233.487,"endTime":236.087,"body":"between two people means that"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":236.087,"endTime":239.387,"body":"there's still this question that"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":236.087,"endTime":239.387,"body":"the engineers would ask about."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":239.387,"endTime":241.107,"body":"And this is in a different"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":239.387,"endTime":241.107,"body":"organization about like..."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":241.712,"endTime":244.969,"body":"Where do, where do we value,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":241.712,"endTime":244.969,"body":"show me where we value technical"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":244.969,"endTime":246.689,"body":"consistency, but I do value it."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":247.129,"endTime":251.599,"body":"It's just that when it shows"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":247.129,"endTime":251.599,"body":"up, it tends to fly in the face"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":251.599,"endTime":253.889,"body":"of the world, the org values"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":251.599,"endTime":253.889,"body":"say that we're supposed to move"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":253.889,"endTime":256.056,"body":"quickly, why would we do this?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":256.626,"endTime":258.246,"body":"But the answer is"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":256.626,"endTime":258.246,"body":"you have to do it."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":258.276,"endTime":262.196,"body":"And so it causes confusion,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":258.276,"endTime":262.196,"body":"it can cause delay,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":262.206,"endTime":263.256,"body":"it can cause debate."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":263.871,"endTime":267.851,"body":"And frankly, for people who"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":263.871,"endTime":267.851,"body":"find themselves in roles where"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":267.851,"endTime":270.751,"body":"that, where the shadow, where"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":267.851,"endTime":270.751,"body":"you're sort of acting on behalf"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":270.751,"endTime":272.891,"body":"of the shadow, you can actually"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":270.751,"endTime":272.891,"body":"get really marginalized."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":273.291,"endTime":275.821,"body":"And so there's both an"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":273.291,"endTime":275.821,"body":"organizational process problem,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":275.871,"endTime":278.451,"body":"as well as sort of, you"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":275.871,"endTime":278.451,"body":"really have to think about"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":278.451,"endTime":281.431,"body":"what it means for individual"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":278.451,"endTime":281.431,"body":"human beings who, who really"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":281.441,"endTime":284.351,"body":"aren't acting in service of"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":281.441,"endTime":284.351,"body":"the publicly stated goals."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":284.551,"endTime":286.501,"body":"I think it's"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":284.551,"endTime":286.501,"body":"interesting because it sounds"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":286.501,"endTime":289.451,"body":"like this dissonance between"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":286.501,"endTime":289.451,"body":"kind of the formal structure"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":289.461,"endTime":292.591,"body":"of the organization and the"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":289.461,"endTime":292.591,"body":"way the organization actually"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":292.591,"endTime":296.821,"body":"functions is likely to cause"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":292.591,"endTime":296.821,"body":"misallocation of resources,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":296.841,"endTime":299.481,"body":"both if you wanted to find"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":296.841,"endTime":299.481,"body":"human beings as resources,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":299.481,"endTime":301.391,"body":"which is controversial at"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":299.481,"endTime":301.391,"body":"times, but we think of them"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":301.391,"endTime":302.431,"body":"that way in a lot of ways."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":302.451,"endTime":305.271,"body":"And also I'm sure how money"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":302.451,"endTime":305.271,"body":"is spent in the organization,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":305.281,"endTime":306.171,"body":"how time is spent."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":306.566,"endTime":308.546,"body":"Uh, would that be a good"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":306.566,"endTime":308.546,"body":"way to characterize this?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":308.606,"endTime":309.596,"body":"I mean,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":308.606,"endTime":309.596,"body":"that, it's certainly"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":309.596,"endTime":311.396,"body":"one aspect of it, right?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":311.396,"endTime":316.216,"body":"So if, if you, I guess I hadn't"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":311.396,"endTime":316.216,"body":"really thought about it from"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":316.216,"endTime":320.296,"body":"the perspective of like OKRs"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":316.216,"endTime":320.296,"body":"or metrics, but it's, it's"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":320.296,"endTime":323.866,"body":"true that if you say, let's say"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":320.296,"endTime":323.866,"body":"that you have an organization"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":323.871,"endTime":327.076,"body":"where, uh, the goal is to"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":323.871,"endTime":327.076,"body":"invent new things rapidly."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":327.851,"endTime":330.531,"body":"And you're not going to"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":327.851,"endTime":330.531,"body":"be able to depend on a"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":330.531,"endTime":331.351,"body":"framework to do that."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":331.941,"endTime":333.801,"body":"You're going to have to hack"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":331.941,"endTime":333.801,"body":"everything from scratch."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":333.901,"endTime":336.941,"body":"You have a team that happens"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":333.901,"endTime":336.941,"body":"to be in your organization"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":336.941,"endTime":341.261,"body":"that is responsible for a"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":336.941,"endTime":341.261,"body":"consistent design system"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":341.261,"endTime":342.031,"body":"or something like that."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":343.281,"endTime":345.951,"body":"If those two things are paired"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":343.281,"endTime":345.951,"body":"in one organization, you're"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":346.001,"endTime":349.301,"body":"always going to prioritize"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":346.001,"endTime":349.301,"body":"the resources for invention."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":349.891,"endTime":351.961,"body":"You're never going to"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":349.891,"endTime":351.961,"body":"prioritize the resources for"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":351.961,"endTime":354.601,"body":"consistency, even though that"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":351.961,"endTime":354.601,"body":"consistency is really important."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":355.711,"endTime":358.591,"body":"But at the end of the day,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":355.711,"endTime":358.591,"body":"where do your priorities lie?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":358.591,"endTime":360.171,"body":"Where do your values"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":358.591,"endTime":360.171,"body":"and principles lie?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":360.201,"endTime":361.721,"body":"That's where you're going"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":360.201,"endTime":361.721,"body":"to be paying attention."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":362.271,"endTime":365.771,"body":"And you have to ask yourself,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":362.271,"endTime":365.771,"body":"at what cost are we not paying"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":365.771,"endTime":367.051,"body":"attention to this other thing?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":367.471,"endTime":369.301,"body":"And this other thing"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":367.471,"endTime":369.301,"body":"is just nagging us in"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":369.301,"endTime":369.841,"body":"the back of our mind."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":371.081,"endTime":373.571,"body":"And you can ask yourself,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":371.081,"endTime":373.571,"body":"why are we wasting so much"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":373.571,"endTime":375.071,"body":"time inventing new things?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":375.501,"endTime":379.201,"body":"We should be spending time"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":375.501,"endTime":379.201,"body":"building a design system."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":380.346,"endTime":381.926,"body":"He says, well, that's not"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":380.346,"endTime":381.926,"body":"what our org is about."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":381.926,"endTime":383.046,"body":"Our org isn't about that."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":383.046,"endTime":383.656,"body":"That's something else."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":383.666,"endTime":386.906,"body":"So there is a larger question"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":383.666,"endTime":386.906,"body":"about how organizations"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":386.926,"endTime":390.026,"body":"intersect and how you really"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":386.926,"endTime":390.026,"body":"want to sort of bring those,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":390.606,"endTime":392.866,"body":"you know, bring that shadow"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":390.606,"endTime":392.866,"body":"into light is one of the things"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":392.876,"endTime":393.866,"body":"that I talk a little bit about."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":394.296,"endTime":395.696,"body":"sometimes you bring"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":394.296,"endTime":395.696,"body":"that shadow into light"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":395.736,"endTime":396.856,"body":"inside your organization."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":396.866,"endTime":399.916,"body":"You can also find the shadow of"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":396.866,"endTime":399.916,"body":"home in some other organization."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":400.306,"endTime":401.516,"body":"I'd love to,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":400.306,"endTime":401.516,"body":"for you to expand on that."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":401.516,"endTime":402.686,"body":"That's a really"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":401.516,"endTime":402.686,"body":"interesting concept."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":402.976,"endTime":403.306,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":403.306,"endTime":405.726,"body":"So first of all, I"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":403.306,"endTime":405.726,"body":"have to explain that."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":407.491,"endTime":409.561,"body":"of an organization's shadow,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":407.491,"endTime":409.561,"body":"and this was sort of part of"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":409.561,"endTime":412.502,"body":"my talk, it actually emerges"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":409.561,"endTime":412.502,"body":"from psychoanalysis, and"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":412.792,"endTime":413.922,"body":"it emerges from Carl Jung."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":414.262,"endTime":417.502,"body":"A whole section of my talk"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":414.262,"endTime":417.502,"body":"is just about Carl Jung."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":417.502,"endTime":421.372,"body":"It's a really risky thing to"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":417.502,"endTime":421.372,"body":"get on stage at an engineering"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":421.382,"endTime":422.892,"body":"management conference, but"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":421.382,"endTime":422.892,"body":"I'm going to talk about"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":422.932,"endTime":424.592,"body":"the Swiss psychoanalyst."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":424.592,"endTime":429.332,"body":"But let's just acknowledge the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":424.592,"endTime":429.332,"body":"Swiss psychoanalyst Carl Jung"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":430.212,"endTime":432.542,"body":"has this notion of shadow,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":430.212,"endTime":432.542,"body":"which is about the psyche,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":432.542,"endTime":433.622,"body":"and it's about personality."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":436.732,"endTime":439.402,"body":"If I'm the kind of person who"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":436.732,"endTime":439.402,"body":"says, I'm a confident leader,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":439.402,"endTime":442.672,"body":"that's my persona, right,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":439.402,"endTime":442.672,"body":"to use also a Jungian term,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":442.672,"endTime":446.052,"body":"like my persona is, like, I"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":442.672,"endTime":446.052,"body":"don't know that I am this, but"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":446.052,"endTime":449.939,"body":"let's say that I am  a strong,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":446.052,"endTime":449.939,"body":"confident, convinced leader."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":450.344,"endTime":451.844,"body":"that's how I define myself."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":451.844,"endTime":452.864,"body":"That's how I see myself."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":452.864,"endTime":454.184,"body":"That's how others see me."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":454.304,"endTime":455.594,"body":"That's my conscious self."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":456.634,"endTime":459.094,"body":"The unconscious self"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":456.634,"endTime":459.094,"body":"right behind that,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":459.514,"endTime":460.744,"body":"contains a shadow, right?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":460.744,"endTime":461.734,"body":"So that's where we"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":460.744,"endTime":461.734,"body":"talk about the shadow."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":461.734,"endTime":464.584,"body":"And the shadow contains all"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":461.734,"endTime":464.584,"body":"the parts that are part of"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":464.584,"endTime":468.799,"body":"me that I, that don't fit my"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":464.584,"endTime":468.799,"body":"conception of the person I am."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":469.319,"endTime":471.689,"body":"Does it also"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":469.319,"endTime":471.689,"body":"contain the parts that do"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":471.689,"endTime":474.029,"body":"fit the conception, or do you"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":471.689,"endTime":474.029,"body":"view it as a separate entity?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":474.029,"endTime":475.889,"body":"It's a totally"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":474.029,"endTime":475.889,"body":"separate entity, right?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":475.894,"endTime":476.699,"body":"So,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":475.894,"endTime":476.699,"body":"so maybe you're not"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":476.699,"endTime":477.749,"body":"confident in the shadow?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":478.079,"endTime":478.379,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":478.379,"endTime":479.279,"body":"Maybe you have doubt."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":479.399,"endTime":481.379,"body":"Maybe you're the kinda"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":479.399,"endTime":481.379,"body":"person who, who has doubt."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":481.469,"endTime":484.409,"body":"The reason it's in the shadow"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":481.469,"endTime":484.409,"body":"is because doubt doesn't fit"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":484.409,"endTime":487.499,"body":"my notion of being a confident"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":484.409,"endTime":487.499,"body":"Right, convinced, strong leader."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":487.529,"endTime":488.819,"body":"That's not how"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":487.529,"endTime":488.819,"body":"I wanna present to the world."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":488.819,"endTime":489.989,"body":"It's not how I want"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":488.819,"endTime":489.989,"body":"to act in the world."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":489.989,"endTime":491.549,"body":"That's, and therefore I"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":489.989,"endTime":491.549,"body":"push it, push it down,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":491.549,"endTime":492.779,"body":"I push it"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":491.549,"endTime":492.779,"body":"down, I repress it,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":492.809,"endTime":493.619,"body":"but eventually."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":494.239,"endTime":495.199,"body":"It'll come to the forefront."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":495.199,"endTime":495.319,"body":"Maybe"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":495.319,"endTime":495.919,"body":"it's there."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":495.979,"endTime":496.339,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":496.339,"endTime":499.839,"body":"Like and you know, any confident"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":496.339,"endTime":499.839,"body":"leader, like, something, if"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":499.839,"endTime":503.739,"body":"you invert that any leader"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":499.839,"endTime":503.739,"body":"who is devoted to consensus"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":503.744,"endTime":505.689,"body":"may have a gut instinct."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":505.689,"endTime":506.649,"body":"That gut instinct."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":510.464,"endTime":512.784,"body":"And so there's nothing"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":510.464,"endTime":512.784,"body":"wrong with doubt."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":512.814,"endTime":513.934,"body":"Doubt's not bad."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":514.164,"endTime":516.624,"body":"It's, it is a tool, right?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":517.164,"endTime":519.954,"body":"And so ultimately, this kind"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":517.164,"endTime":519.954,"body":"of gets to the point, it's"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":519.954,"endTime":525.104,"body":"like the goal, the way I close"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":519.954,"endTime":525.104,"body":"the talk is basically talking"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":525.104,"endTime":526.314,"body":"about integrating the shadow."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":526.934,"endTime":530.804,"body":"And both in psychoanalytic"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":526.934,"endTime":530.804,"body":"terms, but also in"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":530.804,"endTime":531.964,"body":"organizational terms."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":532.324,"endTime":534.614,"body":"What you really want to do"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":532.324,"endTime":534.614,"body":"is bring that to light and"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":534.614,"endTime":538.634,"body":"say listen sometimes as a"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":534.614,"endTime":538.634,"body":"leader I kind of doubt myself."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":538.994,"endTime":542.334,"body":"It serves me in the following"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":538.994,"endTime":542.334,"body":"ways, and it actually helps"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":542.354,"endTime":546.871,"body":"get make sure that I'm making"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":542.354,"endTime":546.871,"body":"more More informed decisions in"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":546.871,"endTime":548.481,"body":"moments that are not certain."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":548.581,"endTime":550.231,"body":"Maybe I"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":548.581,"endTime":550.231,"body":"understand the risks whereas"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":550.231,"endTime":552.341,"body":"if I was fully confident"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":550.231,"endTime":552.341,"body":"I would ignore the risks."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":552.391,"endTime":553.961,"body":"Right exactly"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":552.391,"endTime":553.961,"body":"and that's what happens"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":553.961,"endTime":555.841,"body":"to a lot of people so if"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":553.961,"endTime":555.841,"body":"we take that hypothetical"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":555.841,"endTime":559.111,"body":"leader That person's gonna"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":555.841,"endTime":559.111,"body":"run you off a cliff if"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":559.111,"endTime":560.551,"body":"they ignore that shadow."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":560.551,"endTime":562.591,"body":"So it's really important"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":560.551,"endTime":562.591,"body":"to integrate the shadow."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":562.801,"endTime":564.541,"body":"The same is true"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":562.801,"endTime":564.541,"body":"of organizations."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":564.811,"endTime":567.631,"body":"So if you take that same"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":564.811,"endTime":567.631,"body":"model, and I, I don't know"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":567.631,"endTime":569.401,"body":"that necessarily, this"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":567.631,"endTime":569.401,"body":"is the best example, but"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":569.401,"endTime":573.811,"body":"let's, let's follow it, that"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":569.401,"endTime":573.811,"body":"you've got sort of design"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":573.811,"endTime":575.341,"body":"consistency in your shadow."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":575.941,"endTime":576.241,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":576.301,"endTime":576.571,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":576.781,"endTime":576.841,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":576.841,"endTime":579.811,"body":"I have to make consistent"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":576.841,"endTime":579.811,"body":"design, like it makes the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":579.811,"endTime":581.221,"body":"my product easier to use."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":581.734,"endTime":584.094,"body":"But that gets in the way"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":581.734,"endTime":584.094,"body":"of innovation, gets in"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":584.094,"endTime":585.794,"body":"the way of your public"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":584.094,"endTime":585.794,"body":"persona of innovation."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":586.104,"endTime":588.194,"body":"You have to ask yourself,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":586.104,"endTime":588.194,"body":"how am I going to invite this"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":588.214,"endTime":590.544,"body":"consistency into the work?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":590.654,"endTime":592.794,"body":"How do I acknowledge,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":590.654,"endTime":592.794,"body":"listen, nonetheless,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":593.214,"endTime":595.604,"body":"this is something that my"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":593.214,"endTime":595.604,"body":"organization needs to do."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":595.994,"endTime":597.044,"body":"How do I bring it in?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":597.494,"endTime":600.674,"body":"In a complex organization,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":597.494,"endTime":600.674,"body":"the answer might be platform"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":600.674,"endTime":602.954,"body":"thinking and you wanna move"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":600.674,"endTime":602.954,"body":"that into a platform space."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":602.984,"endTime":603.074,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":603.074,"endTime":605.324,"body":"Someplace that's gonna be"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":603.074,"endTime":605.324,"body":"able to have the leverage,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":605.534,"endTime":606.584,"body":"that's gonna be able"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":605.534,"endTime":606.584,"body":"provide the leverage."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":606.584,"endTime":607.604,"body":"So maybe"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":606.584,"endTime":607.604,"body":"building a platform"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":607.604,"endTime":608.204,"body":"team or something."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":608.209,"endTime":609.524,"body":"Exactly,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":608.209,"endTime":609.524,"body":"exactly right."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":609.524,"endTime":610.964,"body":"And you bring that to"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":609.524,"endTime":610.964,"body":"light and you say, look,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":610.969,"endTime":611.789,"body":"we need a platform team."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":612.779,"endTime":615.659,"body":"Even though our job is to"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":612.779,"endTime":615.659,"body":"innovate, we need a platform"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":615.659,"endTime":618.409,"body":"team because ultimately it's"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":615.659,"endTime":618.409,"body":"going to help us move faster."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":618.929,"endTime":623.073,"body":"one way of thinking about"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":618.929,"endTime":623.073,"body":"the reintegration of"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":623.073,"endTime":624.273,"body":"an organization shadow."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":624.553,"endTime":625.953,"body":"This is"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":624.553,"endTime":625.953,"body":"fascinating because you've"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":625.953,"endTime":627.953,"body":"also just given me a great"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":625.953,"endTime":627.953,"body":"argument for why people"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":627.953,"endTime":628.783,"body":"need platform teams."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":630.803,"endTime":632.813,"body":"Enable innovation in your"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":630.803,"endTime":632.813,"body":"organization by getting rid of"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":632.813,"endTime":635.403,"body":"your organizational shadow and"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":632.813,"endTime":635.403,"body":"orient it to the platform team"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":635.403,"endTime":636.313,"body":"so they can solve your problems."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":636.363,"endTime":636.773,"body":"I love it."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":637.604,"endTime":639.694,"body":"It broadly sounds like"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":637.604,"endTime":639.694,"body":"you think engineering"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":639.704,"endTime":641.944,"body":"orgs need to think more in"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":639.704,"endTime":641.944,"body":"depth about organizational"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":641.944,"endTime":645.434,"body":"design and the psyche of"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":641.944,"endTime":645.434,"body":"that organizational design."},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":645.714,"endTime":648.144,"body":"every organizational"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":645.714,"endTime":648.144,"body":"leader has sat down at some"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":648.144,"endTime":649.354,"body":"point to think about two things."},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":649.814,"endTime":651.514,"body":"One, should I reorg?"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":651.774,"endTime":654.634,"body":"And two, what are the values and"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":651.774,"endTime":654.634,"body":"principles of my organization?"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":655.034,"endTime":656.934,"body":"We do that as an"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":655.034,"endTime":656.934,"body":"organizational tick."},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":656.954,"endTime":658.054,"body":"We do that as leaders."},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":658.094,"endTime":659.644,"body":"And of course those"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":658.094,"endTime":659.644,"body":"things are necessary."},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":660.334,"endTime":663.534,"body":"When we do that, We"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":660.334,"endTime":663.534,"body":"often ask ourselves what"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":663.534,"endTime":664.284,"body":"we're optimizing for."},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":664.284,"endTime":665.934,"body":"That's a very"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":664.284,"endTime":665.934,"body":"reasonable question."},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":666.214,"endTime":671.704,"body":"What we don't ask is, what"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":666.214,"endTime":671.704,"body":"do we do with the things"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":671.764,"endTime":672.834,"body":"that we're repressing?"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":673.994,"endTime":675.274,"body":"How are we going to"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":673.994,"endTime":675.274,"body":"reconcile with that?"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":675.275,"endTime":681.654,"body":"Or sometimes on the line, how do"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":675.275,"endTime":681.654,"body":"you find yourself in a situation"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":681.654,"endTime":685.574,"body":"where something is happening"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":681.654,"endTime":685.574,"body":"and you're confused or annoyed"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":685.574,"endTime":688.384,"body":"and you're saying like, but"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":685.574,"endTime":688.384,"body":"I thought our value was this."},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":689.059,"endTime":691.549,"body":"How do you look at that,"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":689.059,"endTime":691.549,"body":"at those, at that moment"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":691.549,"endTime":693.929,"body":"of decision when you re org"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":691.549,"endTime":693.929,"body":"ed, when you sort of wrote"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":693.929,"endTime":695.709,"body":"your values and principles"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":693.929,"endTime":695.709,"body":"and said, Oh yeah, I made"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":695.709,"endTime":699.359,"body":"a conscious decision not to"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":695.709,"endTime":699.359,"body":"include that in the values."},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":699.649,"endTime":701.849,"body":"Nonetheless, it is"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":699.649,"endTime":701.849,"body":"important right now."},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":701.899,"endTime":704.799,"body":"Like, your organization"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":701.899,"endTime":704.799,"body":"still needs those things."},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":704.799,"endTime":706.839,"body":"If it didn't need those things,"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":704.799,"endTime":706.839,"body":"they wouldn't be coming out."},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":707.278,"endTime":710.945,"body":"And, I'm not saying you have"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":707.278,"endTime":710.945,"body":"to write like a 33 point org"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":710.955,"endTime":714.915,"body":"values document, but sometimes"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":710.955,"endTime":714.915,"body":"you need to ask yourself, How"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":714.915,"endTime":716.595,"body":"do I invite these tensions?"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":717.25,"endTime":721.33,"body":"into conscious view so"},{"speaker":", David Yee","startTime":717.25,"endTime":721.33,"body":"that I can reconcile them."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":721.84,"endTime":722.26,"body":"Interesting."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":722.26,"endTime":725.05,"body":"So because they're out"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":722.26,"endTime":725.05,"body":"of view, they continue"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":725.05,"endTime":726.01,"body":"to cause extra problems."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":726.01,"endTime":728.41,"body":"Almost like having like, I"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":726.01,"endTime":728.41,"body":"don't know, like a, a burr"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":728.415,"endTime":730.24,"body":"in your clothing that you,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":728.415,"endTime":730.24,"body":"you can't get ahold of."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":730.6,"endTime":733.12,"body":"And once, once it's out, you"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":730.6,"endTime":733.12,"body":"can get rid of it, you can"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":733.125,"endTime":735.25,"body":"deal with it, you can leverage"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":733.125,"endTime":735.25,"body":"in whatever way you want to."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":735.255,"endTime":735.455,"body":"Mm-Hmm."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":735.76,"endTime":739.3,"body":"And so you're looking to"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":735.76,"endTime":739.3,"body":"say, how can I leverage these"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":739.69,"endTime":742.06,"body":"challenges in a way that's"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":739.69,"endTime":742.06,"body":"positive for the organization"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":742.06,"endTime":745.21,"body":"because we know we actually"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":742.06,"endTime":745.21,"body":"do need to solve them or."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":745.545,"endTime":748.625,"body":"Or use them or else we're"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":745.545,"endTime":748.625,"body":"going to invite more risk."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":749.275,"endTime":750.585,"body":"Yeah, we're going"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":749.275,"endTime":750.585,"body":"to invite more risk and"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":750.585,"endTime":752.295,"body":"frankly, we're going to waste"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":750.585,"endTime":752.295,"body":"a lot of time and energy."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":752.465,"endTime":753.285,"body":"And"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":752.465,"endTime":753.285,"body":"frustrate people."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":753.815,"endTime":756.735,"body":"This is in, I"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":753.815,"endTime":756.735,"body":"mean, I'm not the kind of"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":756.735,"endTime":759.375,"body":"person who says, well, this"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":756.735,"endTime":759.375,"body":"one simple trick to fix"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":759.375,"endTime":761.275,"body":"your organization, but I do."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":761.385,"endTime":761.695,"body":"That's"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":761.385,"endTime":761.695,"body":"what we're going to"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":761.695,"endTime":762.375,"body":"title the podcast."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":763.64,"endTime":766.15,"body":"This one simple"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":763.64,"endTime":766.15,"body":"trick, the, I think that the,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":766.972,"endTime":769.582,"body":"When I think about operational"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":766.972,"endTime":769.582,"body":"efficiency, and this is just my,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":769.612,"endTime":770.502,"body":"this is the way that I think."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":770.502,"endTime":772.482,"body":"When I think about operational"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":770.502,"endTime":772.482,"body":"efficiency, I'm not thinking"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":772.482,"endTime":777.472,"body":"like, okay, if we could just use"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":772.482,"endTime":777.472,"body":"AI for this, or if we could just"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":777.472,"endTime":780.992,"body":"have engineers work longer or"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":777.472,"endTime":780.992,"body":"harder, we could get more done."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":781.402,"endTime":785.872,"body":"A lot of times when I look at"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":781.402,"endTime":785.872,"body":"the things that slow us down,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":786.302,"endTime":789.392,"body":"it's related to confusion,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":786.302,"endTime":789.392,"body":"disagreement, and delay."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":789.814,"endTime":792.694,"body":"And that delay often emerges"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":789.814,"endTime":792.694,"body":"from a sense of uncertainty"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":792.694,"endTime":795.207,"body":"that says, I usually know"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":792.694,"endTime":795.207,"body":"what to do, but in this"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":795.207,"endTime":796.137,"body":"moment I dunno what to do."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":796.137,"endTime":799.287,"body":"And I'm really afraid of making"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":796.137,"endTime":799.287,"body":"a decision because I'm afraid"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":799.287,"endTime":802.497,"body":"I'm gonna be held accountable"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":799.287,"endTime":802.497,"body":"for doing something contrary to"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":802.497,"endTime":803.937,"body":"the values of my organization."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":804.087,"endTime":806.697,"body":"Or I'm gonna be acting out of"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":804.087,"endTime":806.697,"body":"turn, or like, I don't know."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":806.697,"endTime":810.237,"body":"I feel like I should ask"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":806.697,"endTime":810.237,"body":"the VPE about this, when"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":810.237,"endTime":812.997,"body":"actually sort of acknowledging"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":810.237,"endTime":812.997,"body":"no, sometimes like."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":813.502,"endTime":815.982,"body":"There are decisions that"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":813.502,"endTime":815.982,"body":"need to get made in ways"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":815.982,"endTime":818.142,"body":"that don't mirror the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":815.982,"endTime":818.142,"body":"values or don't mirror"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":818.142,"endTime":819.332,"body":"the hierarchy of your org."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":819.992,"endTime":822.302,"body":"Right, and"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":819.992,"endTime":822.302,"body":"then that creates additional"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":822.302,"endTime":824.722,"body":"communication costs by that"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":822.302,"endTime":824.722,"body":"confusion because now suddenly"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":824.722,"endTime":826.132,"body":"you're talking to the VP,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":824.722,"endTime":826.132,"body":"you're spending their time,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":826.132,"endTime":828.572,"body":"you're spending your time,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":826.132,"endTime":828.572,"body":"you're diving into this problem"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":828.572,"endTime":831.812,"body":"that hopefully if the shadow"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":828.572,"endTime":831.812,"body":"is better integrated into"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":831.812,"endTime":834.832,"body":"your organizational You'd"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":831.812,"endTime":834.832,"body":"be able to solve because you"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":834.832,"endTime":836.942,"body":"understand how to think about"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":834.832,"endTime":836.942,"body":"this prioritization, how to"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":836.942,"endTime":838.012,"body":"think about this context."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":838.242,"endTime":839.742,"body":"Yeah, because at"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":838.242,"endTime":839.742,"body":"that point you would have"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":839.742,"endTime":842.172,"body":"said, you will have said, and"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":839.742,"endTime":842.172,"body":"it's really funny actually"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":842.172,"endTime":844.642,"body":"because recently we had this"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":842.172,"endTime":844.642,"body":"conversation in my part of the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":844.642,"endTime":846.932,"body":"organization where rather than"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":844.642,"endTime":846.932,"body":"sort of stating the values, we"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":846.932,"endTime":848.062,"body":"actually stated the tensions."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":848.592,"endTime":850.912,"body":"So, so one of those tensions,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":848.592,"endTime":850.912,"body":"I'm trying to think of like"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":850.912,"endTime":853.932,"body":"a really good one of those"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":850.912,"endTime":853.932,"body":"tensions was sort of, I need,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":854.282,"endTime":858.352,"body":"on one hand you say, I need the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":854.282,"endTime":858.352,"body":"liberty to act independently."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":859.167,"endTime":861.747,"body":"And on the other side,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":859.167,"endTime":861.747,"body":"you say, I'm afraid of"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":861.747,"endTime":863.157,"body":"stepping on people's toes."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":863.547,"endTime":866.017,"body":"And both those things"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":863.547,"endTime":866.017,"body":"are in play, right?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":866.207,"endTime":869.757,"body":"if I look at the organizational"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":866.207,"endTime":869.757,"body":"values of the New York Times,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":869.757,"endTime":870.997,"body":"one of them is independence."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":871.497,"endTime":871.777,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":871.777,"endTime":874.117,"body":"So, the former is"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":871.777,"endTime":874.117,"body":"really independence."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":874.387,"endTime":877.695,"body":"I'm going to Act independently,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":874.387,"endTime":877.695,"body":"I'm going to like depend on my"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":877.695,"endTime":879.855,"body":"research, I'm going to make a"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":877.695,"endTime":879.855,"body":"thorough point of view, and I'm"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":879.855,"endTime":881.045,"body":"going to arrive at a decision."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":881.615,"endTime":883.925,"body":"But you'd be surprised how"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":881.615,"endTime":883.925,"body":"much in my organization"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":883.925,"endTime":885.715,"body":"there's a fear of"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":883.925,"endTime":885.715,"body":"stepping on people's toes."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":886.425,"endTime":890.115,"body":"Now, don't step on people's"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":886.425,"endTime":890.115,"body":"toes is not written"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":890.135,"endTime":892.115,"body":"in the organizational"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":890.135,"endTime":892.115,"body":"values of my business."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":892.545,"endTime":895.295,"body":"But it's there, and you have"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":892.545,"endTime":895.295,"body":"to be able to talk about it,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":895.295,"endTime":897.485,"body":"and so I, like, one of the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":895.295,"endTime":897.485,"body":"ways we did that recently was"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":897.495,"endTime":899.625,"body":"bringing those up as tensions,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":897.495,"endTime":899.625,"body":"and saying, how do you want"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":899.625,"endTime":900.795,"body":"to reconcile these tensions?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":900.805,"endTime":903.225,"body":"That's the work of integration,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":900.805,"endTime":903.225,"body":"you have to say it out loud."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":903.65,"endTime":905.61,"body":"Do you think"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":903.65,"endTime":905.61,"body":"that's the result, this"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":905.61,"endTime":908.17,"body":"specific tension of not wanting"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":905.61,"endTime":908.17,"body":"to step on other's toes?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":908.77,"endTime":912.84,"body":"of a way that the New York"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":908.77,"endTime":912.84,"body":"Times culture functions, or"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":912.84,"endTime":915.27,"body":"is it a result of people's"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":912.84,"endTime":915.27,"body":"previous experiences that"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":915.28,"endTime":916.32,"body":"they're bringing to the table?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":916.944,"endTime":918.934,"body":"I tend to think"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":916.944,"endTime":918.934,"body":"it's all the manifestation"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":918.934,"endTime":920.094,"body":"of past experiences."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":920.504,"endTime":922.174,"body":"I don't think, for example,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":920.504,"endTime":922.174,"body":"I don't think that the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":922.174,"endTime":924.484,"body":"New York Times would say,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":922.174,"endTime":924.484,"body":"would say that in any way."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":924.484,"endTime":925.599,"body":"I don't think it's"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":924.484,"endTime":925.599,"body":"representative of,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":925.599,"endTime":926.834,"body":"like, what the New York"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":925.599,"endTime":926.834,"body":"Times would be about."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":926.864,"endTime":928.984,"body":"There's no reason to make that"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":926.864,"endTime":928.984,"body":"sort of part of the values."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":929.354,"endTime":932.23,"body":"I think that there's"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":929.354,"endTime":932.23,"body":"historically, in any"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":932.23,"endTime":934.42,"body":"organization, there are"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":932.23,"endTime":934.42,"body":"past experiences that"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":934.42,"endTime":935.57,"body":"an organization has had."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":936.187,"endTime":938.327,"body":"Or that individual people have"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":936.187,"endTime":938.327,"body":"brought to that organization"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":938.327,"endTime":939.367,"body":"that have caused pain."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":939.427,"endTime":942.047,"body":"And as a result,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":939.427,"endTime":942.047,"body":"you repress that."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":942.077,"endTime":943.817,"body":"You say, I'm not going"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":942.077,"endTime":943.817,"body":"to do that again."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":944.367,"endTime":946.327,"body":"And it could be one of the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":944.367,"endTime":946.327,"body":"things I think a lot about is"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":946.327,"endTime":949.587,"body":"it could be that the, that the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":946.327,"endTime":949.587,"body":"people involved in those events"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":949.587,"endTime":953.327,"body":"and those decisions and the way"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":949.587,"endTime":953.327,"body":"they unfolded, they're gone."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":953.517,"endTime":957.047,"body":"Or those, those conditions are"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":953.517,"endTime":957.047,"body":"no longer true, but you have."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":957.782,"endTime":959.252,"body":"You've made a decision."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":959.482,"endTime":962.492,"body":"You carry"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":959.482,"endTime":962.492,"body":"that cultural baseline or"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":962.502,"endTime":965.662,"body":"foundation that was created"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":962.502,"endTime":965.662,"body":"by folks at an organization."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":965.662,"endTime":967.332,"body":"I mean, frankly, we do"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":965.662,"endTime":967.332,"body":"as a society, right?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":967.332,"endTime":969.082,"body":"Like we're still building"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":967.332,"endTime":969.082,"body":"off of the culture that"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":969.082,"endTime":969.952,"body":"was here beforehand."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":970.132,"endTime":971.252,"body":"That's"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":970.132,"endTime":971.252,"body":"absolutely right."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":971.302,"endTime":974.652,"body":"And like frequently those"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":971.302,"endTime":974.652,"body":"things, because, because you,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":974.692,"endTime":977.192,"body":"if, when you look squarely"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":974.692,"endTime":977.192,"body":"at them, you, like I said,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":977.192,"endTime":978.962,"body":"you wouldn't say like, yeah,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":977.192,"endTime":978.962,"body":"I'm going to go ahead and put"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":978.982,"endTime":980.392,"body":"this one in the constitution."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":980.732,"endTime":983.892,"body":"Like it's there that operates."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":983.902,"endTime":985.352,"body":"And so you have"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":983.902,"endTime":985.352,"body":"to be able to ask."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":985.987,"endTime":987.597,"body":"Well, what am I going"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":985.987,"endTime":987.597,"body":"to do about this?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":987.627,"endTime":988.897,"body":"And you have to be able"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":987.627,"endTime":988.897,"body":"to acknowledge that it's"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":988.897,"endTime":990.537,"body":"happening, because if you don't"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":988.897,"endTime":990.537,"body":"acknowledge that it's happening,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":990.547,"endTime":992.397,"body":"you can't solve for it."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":993.477,"endTime":996.597,"body":"What"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":993.477,"endTime":996.597,"body":"prompted you to apply this"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":996.617,"endTime":999.957,"body":"concept of the shadow from"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":996.617,"endTime":999.957,"body":"Carl Jung to org design?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":999.957,"endTime":1001.427,"body":"What, what inspired this?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1001.867,"endTime":1004.067,"body":"So, originally, when"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1001.867,"endTime":1004.067,"body":"I was thinking about this..."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1004.077,"endTime":1007.797,"body":"So, you know, lead dev said,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1004.077,"endTime":1007.797,"body":"Oh, hey, come give this talk"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1007.807,"endTime":1009.147,"body":"about influence at scale."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1009.147,"endTime":1011.457,"body":"And I said, okay, how am I"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1009.147,"endTime":1011.457,"body":"going to do influence at scale?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1011.997,"endTime":1014.667,"body":"So I could talk about like"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1011.997,"endTime":1014.667,"body":"communication practices, I"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1014.667,"endTime":1018.237,"body":"could talk about, tailoring a"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1014.667,"endTime":1018.237,"body":"message, I had all these ideas"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1018.237,"endTime":1022.281,"body":"and then I said, Why is it"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1018.237,"endTime":1022.281,"body":"that our org charts don't work?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1022.814,"endTime":1023.884,"body":"why is it that..."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1024.523,"endTime":1027.523,"body":"A manager can't make a decision"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1024.523,"endTime":1027.523,"body":"in their scope, or the VP of"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1027.523,"endTime":1033.513,"body":"engineering can't act without"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1027.523,"endTime":1033.513,"body":"getting full buy in from the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1033.513,"endTime":1037.253,"body":"product partner of another"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1033.513,"endTime":1037.253,"body":"vice president of engineering"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1037.253,"endTime":1038.103,"body":"someplace else in the org."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1038.123,"endTime":1039.123,"body":"There's something happening."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1039.123,"endTime":1044.859,"body":"It so happened at the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1039.123,"endTime":1044.859,"body":"same time I was part of"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1044.859,"endTime":1045.989,"body":"this coaching program."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1046.884,"endTime":1049.574,"body":"That thinks about Jung a lot and"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1046.884,"endTime":1049.574,"body":"was talking about Jung a lot."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1049.574,"endTime":1052.774,"body":"And so, it was surprising"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1049.574,"endTime":1052.774,"body":"like as you dive into shadow"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1052.774,"endTime":1055.914,"body":"work and Jung's concepts of"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1052.774,"endTime":1055.914,"body":"shadow, it's really hard to"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1055.914,"endTime":1057.184,"body":"internalize what that is."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1057.634,"endTime":1059.334,"body":"and so as I was, I was"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1057.634,"endTime":1059.334,"body":"thinking about these two"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1059.354,"endTime":1060.424,"body":"things at the same time."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1060.514,"endTime":1063.548,"body":"And so I was telling, my friend"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1060.514,"endTime":1063.548,"body":"Neha, who's presenting also"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1063.548,"endTime":1066.174,"body":"today, I was like, I think"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1063.548,"endTime":1066.174,"body":"of these things as shadows."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1066.479,"endTime":1069.819,"body":"there's a book that I cite"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1066.479,"endTime":1069.819,"body":"in my talk, about, uh,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1070.009,"endTime":1072.989,"body":"about sort of managing the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1070.009,"endTime":1072.989,"body":"organization shadow, or"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1072.989,"endTime":1074.519,"body":"mapping an organization shadow."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1074.519,"endTime":1076.429,"body":"and it's, and it, I"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1074.519,"endTime":1076.429,"body":"discovered it and it sort"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1076.429,"endTime":1077.729,"body":"of connects these two bits."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1077.729,"endTime":1080.669,"body":"It connects Jungian psychology"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1077.729,"endTime":1080.669,"body":"with organizational thinking."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1081.079,"endTime":1084.429,"body":"Uh, and so actually that leaping"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1081.079,"endTime":1084.429,"body":"off of that helped me sort"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1084.429,"endTime":1086.039,"body":"of formulate the connection"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1084.429,"endTime":1086.039,"body":"between these two things that"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1086.039,"endTime":1086.829,"body":"were going on in my head."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1087.643,"endTime":1089.513,"body":"I would be"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1087.643,"endTime":1089.513,"body":"curious if you could share"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1089.513,"endTime":1092.463,"body":"an example of an organization"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1089.513,"endTime":1092.463,"body":"that is either doing a great"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1092.463,"endTime":1095.903,"body":"job integrating its shadow,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1092.463,"endTime":1095.903,"body":"or maybe a terrible job."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1096.639,"endTime":1098.439,"body":"I mean, honestly,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1096.639,"endTime":1098.439,"body":"my assumption is that all"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1098.449,"endTime":1101.079,"body":"organizations are doing a"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1098.449,"endTime":1101.079,"body":"terrible job of this, right?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1101.434,"endTime":1104.294,"body":"If they weren't doing a"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1101.434,"endTime":1104.294,"body":"terrible job of this, then"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1105.414,"endTime":1107.064,"body":"we wouldn't have our work."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1107.065,"endTime":1112.104,"body":"The reason why I'm giving this"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1107.065,"endTime":1112.104,"body":"talk here today is because as"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1112.114,"endTime":1114.874,"body":"senior leaders, as directors and"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1112.114,"endTime":1114.874,"body":"vice presidents of engineering,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1119.781,"endTime":1121.261,"body":"An engineering manager"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1119.781,"endTime":1121.261,"body":"is having a problem with"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1121.261,"endTime":1123.571,"body":"another engineering manager,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1121.261,"endTime":1123.571,"body":"or this process that you"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1123.571,"endTime":1124.691,"body":"set up isn't working."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1125.141,"endTime":1128.001,"body":"and so, the natural process"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1125.141,"endTime":1128.001,"body":"organizationally is to, pump"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1128.001,"endTime":1130.751,"body":"this up and you go this up to"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1128.001,"endTime":1130.751,"body":"the next, up to the next level."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1130.781,"endTime":1133.051,"body":"So you're talking about"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1130.781,"endTime":1133.051,"body":"directors, VPs of engineering,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1133.081,"endTime":1134.301,"body":"other kind of senior leaders."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1134.784,"endTime":1139.124,"body":"So, by definition, our"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1134.784,"endTime":1139.124,"body":"job is to solve problems"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1139.144,"endTime":1142.204,"body":"that our designed systems"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1139.144,"endTime":1142.204,"body":"are not equipped to solve."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1142.644,"endTime":1145.734,"body":"Which means that, like, you have"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1142.644,"endTime":1145.734,"body":"to look at the prob you have"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1145.734,"endTime":1148.144,"body":"to look at the problem and say,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1145.734,"endTime":1148.144,"body":"Okay, well, what's at play here?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1149.489,"endTime":1153.859,"body":"All of us do a really bad job of"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1149.489,"endTime":1153.859,"body":"this because we've, we've worked"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1153.879,"endTime":1159.259,"body":"really hard to create working"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1153.879,"endTime":1159.259,"body":"systems, healthy systems, uh,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1159.269,"endTime":1160.659,"body":"to be able to serve these needs."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1160.909,"endTime":1163.589,"body":"you know, I can, you can"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1160.909,"endTime":1163.589,"body":"imagine sort of any number"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1163.589,"endTime":1167.499,"body":"of organizations that, that"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1163.589,"endTime":1167.499,"body":"are well known for sort of"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1167.499,"endTime":1169.429,"body":"healthy, uh, healthy culture."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1169.429,"endTime":1172.619,"body":"So Netflix, for example, and"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1169.429,"endTime":1172.619,"body":"I don't work at Netflix, so I"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1172.619,"endTime":1175.519,"body":"can't speak for Netflix, but"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1172.619,"endTime":1175.519,"body":"legendarily from the outside,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1175.519,"endTime":1177.259,"body":"everyone says, you know,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1175.519,"endTime":1177.259,"body":"Netflix has this figured out."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1177.629,"endTime":1178.959,"body":"They have this culture document."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1178.969,"endTime":1179.969,"body":"It defines everything."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1179.969,"endTime":1182.469,"body":"If you follow the culture"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1179.969,"endTime":1182.469,"body":"document, it's just gonna work."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1183.076,"endTime":1185.216,"body":"It didn't work for"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1183.076,"endTime":1185.216,"body":"them as they scaled."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1185.586,"endTime":1187.556,"body":"Everything that they've done"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1185.586,"endTime":1187.556,"body":"in the last year of their"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1187.556,"endTime":1190.566,"body":"existence has been to sort of"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1187.556,"endTime":1190.566,"body":"question their culture document."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1190.786,"endTime":1193.076,"body":"So in a sense, you might"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1190.786,"endTime":1193.076,"body":"say, okay, Netflix is looking"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1193.076,"endTime":1196.066,"body":"at the shadow and saying,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1193.076,"endTime":1196.066,"body":"like, , this isn't working."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1196.566,"endTime":1198.366,"body":"and you could talk to anybody"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1196.566,"endTime":1198.366,"body":"at any high functioning"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1198.366,"endTime":1200.286,"body":"organization and say,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1198.366,"endTime":1200.286,"body":"wow, it looks like a great"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1200.286,"endTime":1201.216,"body":"organization to work on this."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1201.216,"endTime":1203.286,"body":"And yeah, well, on the ground"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1201.216,"endTime":1203.286,"body":"is a little more complicated."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1203.291,"endTime":1203.571,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1203.766,"endTime":1204.006,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1204.006,"endTime":1204.936,"body":"That's real."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1205.296,"endTime":1207.876,"body":"So if it's more complicated,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1205.296,"endTime":1207.876,"body":"what do you do with that?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1207.906,"endTime":1209.781,"body":"And so you could imagine that"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1207.906,"endTime":1209.781,"body":"an organization like Netflix"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1210.726,"endTime":1212.856,"body":"in making the decision to"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1210.726,"endTime":1212.856,"body":"sort of like question their"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1212.856,"endTime":1216.646,"body":"culture document and change"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1212.856,"endTime":1216.646,"body":"their processes, is trying to"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1216.646,"endTime":1218.596,"body":"integrate the shadow, whether"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1216.646,"endTime":1218.596,"body":"they're doing a good job or not."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1218.596,"endTime":1221.326,"body":"I, I don't know, but"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1218.596,"endTime":1221.326,"body":"that's just one example."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1221.781,"endTime":1224.531,"body":"Again, I think most"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1221.781,"endTime":1224.531,"body":"organizations of any complexity"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1225.251,"endTime":1227.401,"body":"and probably the more complex"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1225.251,"endTime":1227.401,"body":"or the more tenured the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1227.401,"endTime":1229.391,"body":"organization, the harder"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1227.401,"endTime":1229.391,"body":"they have, the harder time"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1229.391,"endTime":1230.461,"body":"they have of doing this."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1230.942,"endTime":1234.122,"body":"Find difficulty in reconciling"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1230.942,"endTime":1234.122,"body":"the shadow by design."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1234.752,"endTime":1235.742,"body":"This"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1234.752,"endTime":1235.742,"body":"is really interesting."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1235.742,"endTime":1238.722,"body":"I love to use Netflix as an"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1235.742,"endTime":1238.722,"body":"example because I spoke with"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1238.722,"endTime":1241.972,"body":"Carol Barrett at Netflix"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1238.722,"endTime":1241.972,"body":"about their transition as"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1241.972,"endTime":1244.162,"body":"they've started to hire more"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1241.972,"endTime":1244.162,"body":"junior engineers and some of"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1244.162,"endTime":1244.952,"body":"these changes they've made."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1245.552,"endTime":1246.112,"body":"What you're saying resonates."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1246.112,"endTime":1249.392,"body":"Netflix, we're"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1246.112,"endTime":1249.392,"body":"speaking for them."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1249.402,"endTime":1252.652,"body":"We don't work in Netflix, but,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1249.402,"endTime":1252.652,"body":"I think by your definition has"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1252.652,"endTime":1256.602,"body":"been wrestling with that shadow"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1252.652,"endTime":1256.602,"body":"where maybe that shadow, and"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1256.602,"endTime":1258.662,"body":"again, I'm just guessing it"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1256.602,"endTime":1258.662,"body":"grew over the years where they"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1258.662,"endTime":1261.152,"body":"said, this doesn't now work"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1258.662,"endTime":1261.152,"body":"for us as well as it used to."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1261.192,"endTime":1263.602,"body":"We've, we've added these"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1261.192,"endTime":1263.602,"body":"cultural pieces that maybe we"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1263.612,"endTime":1266.522,"body":"haven't fully accepted or that"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1263.612,"endTime":1266.522,"body":"we, if we need to adjust to."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1266.522,"endTime":1268.962,"body":"And now they're saying, okay,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1266.522,"endTime":1268.962,"body":"how can we integrate parts"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1268.962,"endTime":1273.537,"body":"of that shadow to improve the"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1268.962,"endTime":1273.537,"body":"organizational and I would"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1273.547,"endTime":1276.467,"body":"be curious if, if they think"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1273.547,"endTime":1276.467,"body":"that's what they're doing and"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1276.477,"endTime":1278.167,"body":"that's how they're improving"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1276.477,"endTime":1278.167,"body":"the organization or how"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1278.167,"endTime":1278.967,"body":"they would think about it."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1278.967,"endTime":1282.007,"body":"Maybe an interesting follow"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1278.967,"endTime":1282.007,"body":"up for Carol or Catherine"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1282.007,"endTime":1284.587,"body":"here today is asking them"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1282.007,"endTime":1284.587,"body":"like, what do you think?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1284.757,"endTime":1286.127,"body":"Is that what Netflix"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1284.757,"endTime":1286.127,"body":"has been doing?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1286.137,"endTime":1286.777,"body":"Integrating the shadow?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1286.777,"endTime":1288.247,"body":"Does David's talk resonate?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1288.457,"endTime":1290.061,"body":"Yeah, I will ask."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1290.061,"endTime":1292.317,"body":"So did I really"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1290.061,"endTime":1292.317,"body":"change your mind?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1292.317,"endTime":1295.047,"body":"Are you convinced now that"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1292.317,"endTime":1295.047,"body":"I was right about the way"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1295.047,"endTime":1295.907,"body":"Netflix ought to work?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1295.937,"endTime":1297.437,"body":"Let's get"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1295.937,"endTime":1297.437,"body":"someone from Netflix in here."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1297.437,"endTime":1297.677,"body":"Come on."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1298.147,"endTime":1299.307,"body":"Producers, can we grab someone?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1300.502,"endTime":1301.102,"body":"Gimme a call."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1301.132,"endTime":1301.972,"body":"They're shaking my head here."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1302.032,"endTime":1302.122,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1302.122,"endTime":1303.682,"body":"But maybe they'll, maybe"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1302.122,"endTime":1303.682,"body":"they'll call David after this."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1303.682,"endTime":1303.862,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1304.402,"endTime":1306.532,"body":"I, I'd love to add some"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1304.402,"endTime":1306.532,"body":"more context to this."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1306.772,"endTime":1306.862,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1306.862,"endTime":1309.382,"body":"So let's talk a bit about what"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1306.862,"endTime":1309.382,"body":"you do at the New York Times"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1309.382,"endTime":1310.462,"body":"and your organization there."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1310.522,"endTime":1310.612,"body":"Mm-Hmm."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1310.807,"endTime":1313.027,"body":"'cause I think that'll be a,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1310.807,"endTime":1313.027,"body":"a great corollary to this,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1313.032,"endTime":1314.947,"body":"you know, the, the shadow"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1313.032,"endTime":1314.947,"body":"side of the organization"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1314.952,"endTime":1318.727,"body":"versus the tensions versus how"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1314.952,"endTime":1318.727,"body":"your organization functions."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1319.057,"endTime":1319.147,"body":"Mm-Hmm."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1319.387,"endTime":1320.437,"body":", how big's your org at"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1319.387,"endTime":1320.437,"body":"the New York Times?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1321.067,"endTime":1322.627,"body":"So my organization"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1321.067,"endTime":1322.627,"body":"in the New York Times, I"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1322.627,"endTime":1324.937,"body":"have nine direct reports."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1325.057,"endTime":1327.757,"body":"I have about 70"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1325.057,"endTime":1327.757,"body":"engineers all told."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1328.112,"endTime":1331.022,"body":"and it's an organization"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1328.112,"endTime":1331.022,"body":"called Subscriber Experiences."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1331.382,"endTime":1332.672,"body":"Think of this as the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1331.382,"endTime":1332.672,"body":"organization that is"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1332.672,"endTime":1335.012,"body":"responsible for the homepage"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1332.672,"endTime":1335.012,"body":"of the New York Times."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1335.102,"endTime":1337.412,"body":"the News Reader application,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1335.102,"endTime":1337.412,"body":"if you like, read the New"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1337.412,"endTime":1338.252,"body":"York Times on your phone."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1338.252,"endTime":1341.402,"body":"Like that, that app, that"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1338.252,"endTime":1341.402,"body":"is an app that we own."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1341.402,"endTime":1343.742,"body":"It's in conjunction with"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1341.402,"endTime":1343.742,"body":"a lot of other teams."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1344.702,"endTime":1346.682,"body":"Things like personalization"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1344.702,"endTime":1346.682,"body":"of the experience and the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1346.682,"endTime":1347.732,"body":"emails you receive, right?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1347.732,"endTime":1349.862,"body":"All of these are like"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1347.732,"endTime":1349.862,"body":"sort of how do you bring,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1350.342,"endTime":1351.932,"body":"uh, how do you bring the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1350.342,"endTime":1351.932,"body":"product to subscribers?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1351.932,"endTime":1354.162,"body":"So when you describe me"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1351.932,"endTime":1354.162,"body":"as a product oriented"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1354.162,"endTime":1356.172,"body":"engineering leader, That's"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1354.162,"endTime":1356.172,"body":"my bread and butter."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1356.222,"endTime":1357.612,"body":"That's the kind of"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1356.222,"endTime":1357.612,"body":"organization that I'm in."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1357.662,"endTime":1360.382,"body":"so that's, that's"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1357.662,"endTime":1360.382,"body":"kind of my zone."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1360.822,"endTime":1364.3,"body":"and You know, it is a,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1360.822,"endTime":1364.3,"body":"it is a discreet mission."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1364.31,"endTime":1365.27,"body":"We use a mission system."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1365.27,"endTime":1367.32,"body":"So we use a discreet"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1365.27,"endTime":1367.32,"body":"mission inside the New"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1367.32,"endTime":1369.36,"body":"York Times, inside an"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1367.32,"endTime":1369.36,"body":"organization called XFUN."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1369.92,"endTime":1372.39,"body":"and so we have"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1369.92,"endTime":1372.39,"body":"our own practices."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1372.39,"endTime":1373.87,"body":"We have our own principles."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1373.87,"endTime":1377.14,"body":"We have our own values"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1373.87,"endTime":1377.14,"body":"that supplement those of,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1377.474,"endTime":1378.384,"body":"of the New York Times."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1378.384,"endTime":1381.224,"body":"We don't operate exactly like"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1378.384,"endTime":1381.224,"body":"the organizations around us."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1381.674,"endTime":1384.554,"body":"and yeah, like we have, like"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1381.674,"endTime":1384.554,"body":"you said, we have our own"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1384.584,"endTime":1387.164,"body":"tensions, our own problems that"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1384.584,"endTime":1387.164,"body":"are unique and like we also"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1387.164,"endTime":1389.264,"body":"reflect on the problems and"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1387.164,"endTime":1389.264,"body":"tensions of the organization"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1389.269,"endTime":1390.134,"body":"as a whole in our work."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1390.194,"endTime":1390.674,"body":"You have to,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1391.004,"endTime":1393.254,"body":"would you be"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1391.004,"endTime":1393.254,"body":"open to sharing some about how"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1393.254,"endTime":1395.444,"body":"your org works and then some"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1393.254,"endTime":1395.444,"body":"of the tensions you identified?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1395.444,"endTime":1396.554,"body":"I know you mentioned"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1395.444,"endTime":1396.554,"body":"one earlier."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1396.644,"endTime":1397.064,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1397.069,"endTime":1399.422,"body":"So,, this is always the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1397.069,"endTime":1399.422,"body":"classic engineering debate."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1399.422,"endTime":1401.502,"body":"It's like, do I move fast and"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1399.422,"endTime":1401.502,"body":"break things, or do I make the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1401.502,"endTime":1402.812,"body":"right decisions up front, right?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1402.812,"endTime":1404.632,"body":"Which is hard to do."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1404.632,"endTime":1409.322,"body":"You can't really"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1404.632,"endTime":1409.322,"body":"live by one or the other"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1409.322,"endTime":1412.182,"body":"without, you know, you have"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1409.322,"endTime":1412.182,"body":"to eat your hat eventually."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1412.65,"endTime":1415.82,"body":"And so one of the things"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1412.65,"endTime":1415.82,"body":"we're figuring out now is,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1416.4,"endTime":1419.82,"body":"Okay, how do we, how can"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1416.4,"endTime":1419.82,"body":"we bring products to market"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1419.82,"endTime":1420.83,"body":"really, really quickly?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1420.83,"endTime":1423.43,"body":"while pointing, and so this"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1420.83,"endTime":1423.43,"body":"is, so if you, let's, the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1423.43,"endTime":1425.16,"body":"process of reconciliation"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1423.43,"endTime":1425.16,"body":"looks a little bit like this."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1425.56,"endTime":1429.24,"body":"if we were writing an org value"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1425.56,"endTime":1429.24,"body":"for subscriber experiences,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1429.25,"endTime":1433.17,"body":"we might say, we need to bring"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1429.25,"endTime":1433.17,"body":"products to market as quickly"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1433.17,"endTime":1436.51,"body":"as possible to evaluate whether"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1433.17,"endTime":1436.51,"body":"they serve our readers and serve"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1436.51,"endTime":1437.45,"body":"our newsroom in the right way."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1438.05,"endTime":1438.39,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1438.71,"endTime":1440.54,"body":"And then we would leave"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1438.71,"endTime":1440.54,"body":"everything else on the floor,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1440.54,"endTime":1442.05,"body":"but by bringing up as a tension."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1442.551,"endTime":1445.089,"body":"We can say, we're going"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1442.551,"endTime":1445.089,"body":"to build things as quickly"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1445.089,"endTime":1446.899,"body":"as possible to bring them"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1445.089,"endTime":1446.899,"body":"to market and experiment."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1447.119,"endTime":1449.639,"body":"But as we do it, we're going"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1447.119,"endTime":1449.639,"body":"to identify the journey"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1449.639,"endTime":1453.049,"body":"we're going to take to a"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1449.639,"endTime":1453.049,"body":"consistent, scalable, resilient,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1453.059,"endTime":1454.899,"body":"extensible user experience."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1455.649,"endTime":1458.759,"body":"Right, so we're not, we're"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1455.649,"endTime":1458.759,"body":"still going to be optimizing"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1458.769,"endTime":1461.349,"body":"for one thing, but we're going"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1458.769,"endTime":1461.349,"body":"to be doing it in tension"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1461.689,"endTime":1463.959,"body":"with this thing that would"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1461.689,"endTime":1463.959,"body":"otherwise live in our shadow."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1465.319,"endTime":1468.099,"body":"Which is making sound"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1465.319,"endTime":1468.099,"body":"technical decisions as we work."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1468.159,"endTime":1471.619,"body":"We are going to do this"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1468.159,"endTime":1471.619,"body":"today, but in six months."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1472.029,"endTime":1473.699,"body":"We're going to be lining"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1472.029,"endTime":1473.699,"body":"up this batch of work"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1473.699,"endTime":1474.399,"body":"that brings it along."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1474.409,"endTime":1477.729,"body":"That's not like an uncommon"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1474.409,"endTime":1477.729,"body":"gesture in engineering, but"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1478.139,"endTime":1480.069,"body":"one of the things I appreciated"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1478.139,"endTime":1480.069,"body":"about the way we've been"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1480.069,"endTime":1484.479,"body":"thinking about this is that"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1480.069,"endTime":1484.479,"body":"you can say it up front and"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1484.479,"endTime":1488.059,"body":"you can say, this is, it's"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1484.479,"endTime":1488.059,"body":"not this, but that it's"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1488.059,"endTime":1490.349,"body":"more like this in light of."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1490.679,"endTime":1493.589,"body":"The long term goal, the short"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1490.679,"endTime":1493.589,"body":"term in light of the long term."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1494.009,"endTime":1495.509,"body":"How do"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1494.009,"endTime":1495.509,"body":"you measure your success?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1496.033,"endTime":1496.143,"body":"I"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1496.143,"endTime":1497.313,"body":"mean, in"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1496.143,"endTime":1497.313,"body":"our organization, we"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1497.313,"endTime":1498.863,"body":"measure our success"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1497.313,"endTime":1498.863,"body":"through business success."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1498.863,"endTime":1501.303,"body":"That's, that's why we exist."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1501.303,"endTime":1502.333,"body":"We're not a platform."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1502.343,"endTime":1504.483,"body":"My organization is not"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1502.343,"endTime":1504.483,"body":"a platform organization."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1505.518,"endTime":1509.458,"body":"We are defined by whether or not"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1505.518,"endTime":1509.458,"body":"we're able to engage our readers"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1509.458,"endTime":1512.668,"body":"in ways that keep them coming"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1509.458,"endTime":1512.668,"body":"back and keep them informed."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1512.978,"endTime":1514.468,"body":"I mean, that's the,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1512.978,"endTime":1514.468,"body":"that's the heart of it."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1514.598,"endTime":1516.887,"body":"I love that"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1514.598,"endTime":1516.887,"body":"there's this key core mission"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1516.897,"endTime":1519.587,"body":"that drives how you do the"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1516.897,"endTime":1519.587,"body":"org design and also how you"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1519.607,"endTime":1521.147,"body":"think about the tensions"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1519.607,"endTime":1521.147,"body":"with your shadow work."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1521.147,"endTime":1524.147,"body":"I think that's important"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1521.147,"endTime":1524.147,"body":"because it, I'm sure it makes"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1524.147,"endTime":1527.377,"body":"it much easier for you to"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1524.147,"endTime":1527.377,"body":"prioritize even when there"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1527.377,"endTime":1529.827,"body":"is conflict that happens with"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1527.377,"endTime":1529.827,"body":"the shadow org because you"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1529.837,"endTime":1531.687,"body":"have a defined clear mission."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1532.127,"endTime":1532.447,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1532.447,"endTime":1533.777,"body":"The clear mission doesn't."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1534.167,"endTime":1537.997,"body":"It doesn't mean that you can't"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1534.167,"endTime":1537.997,"body":"wrestle with these things."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1538.227,"endTime":1541.507,"body":"I would, you know, I'll cite"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1538.227,"endTime":1541.507,"body":"that mission left, right, and"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1541.507,"endTime":1542.727,"body":"center, no matter where we go."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1542.727,"endTime":1544.637,"body":"I mean, that's, that's still"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1542.727,"endTime":1544.637,"body":"a very reasonable place to be."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1544.637,"endTime":1545.947,"body":"It's a good goal to have."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1546.427,"endTime":1551.677,"body":"But being able to say"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1546.427,"endTime":1551.677,"body":"operationally, philosophically,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1551.737,"endTime":1553.657,"body":"as we approach these"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1551.737,"endTime":1553.657,"body":"things, we are living with"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1553.657,"endTime":1554.417,"body":"these things in tension."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1554.437,"endTime":1557.597,"body":"And there's no, I'm not, like"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1554.437,"endTime":1557.597,"body":"in all of these tensions,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1557.597,"endTime":1559.497,"body":"I'm never going to arrive"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1557.597,"endTime":1559.497,"body":"at a clear statement."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1560.202,"endTime":1562.042,"body":"It's going to be a"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1560.202,"endTime":1562.042,"body":"continual body of work."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1562.042,"endTime":1564.882,"body":"It's going to be shifting"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1562.042,"endTime":1564.882,"body":"between that sort of move fast"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1564.952,"endTime":1566.172,"body":"and like that consistency."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1566.172,"endTime":1568.172,"body":"It's going to be shifting"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1566.172,"endTime":1568.172,"body":"between independence and"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1568.172,"endTime":1569.542,"body":"stepping on people's toes."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1570.162,"endTime":1572.362,"body":"it's going to be shifting"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1570.162,"endTime":1572.362,"body":"between flexibility"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1572.362,"endTime":1573.692,"body":"and rigidity of teams."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1574.142,"endTime":1575.782,"body":"Like we're always going to"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1574.142,"endTime":1575.782,"body":"have to sort of reckon with"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1575.782,"endTime":1578.152,"body":"that and like figure out what"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1575.782,"endTime":1578.152,"body":"lives in the light and what"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1578.152,"endTime":1579.742,"body":"lives in the shadow and how"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1578.152,"endTime":1579.742,"body":"are we going to sort of bring"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1579.742,"endTime":1582.062,"body":"these things together to"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1579.742,"endTime":1582.062,"body":"have a healthy conversation."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1582.742,"endTime":1584.002,"body":"It's"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1582.742,"endTime":1584.002,"body":"interesting to look at your"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1584.002,"endTime":1585.972,"body":"career in the context of this."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1585.982,"endTime":1588.932,"body":"You've been someone who's"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1585.982,"endTime":1588.932,"body":"been involved in media"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1588.932,"endTime":1592.152,"body":"engineering, uh, as you"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1588.932,"endTime":1592.152,"body":"put the phrase for a while."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1592.152,"endTime":1594.242,"body":"You know, you were a director"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1592.152,"endTime":1594.242,"body":"of engineering at Vox, you"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1594.242,"endTime":1598.262,"body":"were a CTO at Editorially and"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1594.242,"endTime":1598.262,"body":"co founder, and you've had"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1598.262,"endTime":1599.822,"body":"other roles in this space."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1599.822,"endTime":1603.622,"body":"Do you think that there"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1599.822,"endTime":1603.622,"body":"are unique aspects to the"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1603.622,"endTime":1607.042,"body":"organizational shadows at"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1603.622,"endTime":1607.042,"body":"media engineering orgs,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1607.412,"endTime":1609.622,"body":"or is this something where"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1607.412,"endTime":1609.622,"body":"it's fairly common across"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1609.622,"endTime":1610.532,"body":"the engineering space?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1611.387,"endTime":1612.677,"body":"That's a"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1611.387,"endTime":1612.677,"body":"really good question."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1612.677,"endTime":1616.965,"body":"I, yes, this is, there"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1612.677,"endTime":1616.965,"body":"is something and, but"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1616.965,"endTime":1618.525,"body":"it's not unique to the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1616.965,"endTime":1618.525,"body":"media engineering space."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1618.525,"endTime":1621.525,"body":"Let, let me, I'll give you the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1618.525,"endTime":1621.525,"body":"sort of broad strokes on it."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1621.755,"endTime":1623.555,"body":"and then I'll get a little bit"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1621.755,"endTime":1623.555,"body":"closer because there's a really"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1623.56,"endTime":1625.895,"body":"interesting contrast between"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1623.56,"endTime":1625.895,"body":"Vox and the New York Times."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1626.455,"endTime":1630.303,"body":"so broadly speaking, I would"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1626.455,"endTime":1630.303,"body":"say any time, especially in"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1630.498,"endTime":1633.333,"body":"engineering, there's always"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1630.498,"endTime":1633.333,"body":"a, some sort of foil, right?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1633.733,"endTime":1635.813,"body":"I remember talking to"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1633.733,"endTime":1635.813,"body":"a friend of mine, at an"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1635.813,"endTime":1636.833,"body":"organization I won't name."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1637.898,"endTime":1641.298,"body":"And, you know, at the New"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1637.898,"endTime":1641.298,"body":"York Times at the time, there"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1641.298,"endTime":1643.548,"body":"was a sort of this question"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1641.298,"endTime":1643.548,"body":"of like, who's in charge,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1643.558,"endTime":1644.868,"body":"product or engineering?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1645.118,"endTime":1646.888,"body":"It's going to be product"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1645.118,"endTime":1646.888,"body":"or engineering doing this."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1647.408,"endTime":1648.858,"body":"And I was like, and I was"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1647.408,"endTime":1648.858,"body":"talking to my friend, I"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1648.888,"endTime":1650.928,"body":"was like, well, what do"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1648.888,"endTime":1650.928,"body":"you like, you know, what's"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1650.928,"endTime":1652.528,"body":"your relationship between"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1650.928,"endTime":1652.528,"body":"product and engineering?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1652.528,"endTime":1653.378,"body":"He said, well, it's fine."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1653.948,"endTime":1656.073,"body":"I said, well, like, there's"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1653.948,"endTime":1656.073,"body":"not a tension there?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1656.073,"endTime":1658.208,"body":"He's like, no, not really."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1658.248,"endTime":1662.603,"body":"I was like, well, you know, uh,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1658.248,"endTime":1662.603,"body":"how do you, How do you reconcile"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1662.603,"endTime":1664.913,"body":"with the needs of the business"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1662.603,"endTime":1664.913,"body":"and like being pushed to do"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1664.913,"endTime":1665.693,"body":"things that you don't wanna do?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1665.693,"endTime":1669.058,"body":"He is like, oh, that's"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1665.693,"endTime":1669.058,"body":"marketing , . That's marketing."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1669.203,"endTime":1669.383,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1669.383,"endTime":1670.973,"body":"Marketing's you're"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1669.383,"endTime":1670.973,"body":"thinking about marketing."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1670.973,"endTime":1672.833,"body":"Marketing's the team that"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1670.973,"endTime":1672.833,"body":"screws us up all the time."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1673.373,"endTime":1675.803,"body":"but of course that's just"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1673.373,"endTime":1675.803,"body":"from his point of view."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1675.893,"endTime":1675.953,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1675.953,"endTime":1677.843,"body":"I'm sure if I, if I was friends"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1675.953,"endTime":1677.843,"body":"with somebody in marketing,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1677.843,"endTime":1679.313,"body":"I said, well, what's your"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1677.843,"endTime":1679.313,"body":"perspective on engineering?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1679.313,"endTime":1681.263,"body":"Like, oh, engineering's always"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1679.313,"endTime":1681.263,"body":"like, we wanna move slower."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1681.263,"endTime":1682.763,"body":"We gotta make sure we"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1681.263,"endTime":1682.763,"body":"do this the right way."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1682.888,"endTime":1685.703,"body":", like, you know, and, and"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1682.888,"endTime":1685.703,"body":"I think, so there's al"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1685.793,"endTime":1687.353,"body":"so first of all, there's"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1685.793,"endTime":1687.353,"body":"always that dynamic."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1687.698,"endTime":1690.208,"body":"Right, and that often the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1687.698,"endTime":1690.208,"body":"shadow organization, you"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1690.208,"endTime":1693.368,"body":"could pretty cleanly find some"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1690.208,"endTime":1693.368,"body":"corollary in the relationship"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1693.368,"endTime":1695.598,"body":"between two functions or"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1693.368,"endTime":1695.598,"body":"branches of the organization."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1696.188,"endTime":1699.298,"body":"So when I think about usually"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1696.188,"endTime":1699.298,"body":"what you'll hear if you talk to"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1699.298,"endTime":1701.218,"body":"people at the Washington Post"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1699.298,"endTime":1701.218,"body":"or you talk to people at the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1701.218,"endTime":1702.428,"body":"New York Times or Vox Media."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1702.923,"endTime":1706.353,"body":"It's this tension between,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1702.923,"endTime":1706.353,"body":"quote, the newsroom and"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1706.363,"endTime":1708.863,"body":"the product, business,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1706.363,"endTime":1708.863,"body":"technology organization."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1709.103,"endTime":1711.773,"body":"Not that that is, not"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1709.103,"endTime":1711.773,"body":"that that's a contentious"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1711.773,"endTime":1715.933,"body":"relationship, but what often"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1711.773,"endTime":1715.933,"body":"happens is, it is the job of"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1715.933,"endTime":1718.723,"body":"somebody in the newsroom to be"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1715.933,"endTime":1718.723,"body":"able to report the news and to"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1718.733,"endTime":1721.313,"body":"be able to present that news as"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1718.733,"endTime":1721.313,"body":"effectively as possible to their"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1721.343,"endTime":1722.983,"body":"readers as quickly as they can."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1723.423,"endTime":1725.543,"body":"if you think about any"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1723.423,"endTime":1725.543,"body":"organization, you think about"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1725.583,"endTime":1728.603,"body":"CNN, you think about WAPO,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1725.583,"endTime":1728.603,"body":"you think about the New York"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1728.633,"endTime":1735.388,"body":"Times, The difference between,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1728.633,"endTime":1735.388,"body":"reporting on, The kinds of"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1735.388,"endTime":1737.828,"body":"things that are happening in"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1735.388,"endTime":1737.828,"body":"the world today in the next"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1737.978,"endTime":1741.348,"body":"two minutes versus the next"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1737.978,"endTime":1741.348,"body":"20 minutes is everything."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1742.488,"endTime":1747.548,"body":"So that need to be able to meet"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1742.488,"endTime":1747.548,"body":"the news and move with the news"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1747.548,"endTime":1748.638,"body":"is really, really critical."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1749.484,"endTime":1751.894,"body":"And then on the engineering"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1749.484,"endTime":1751.894,"body":"side, if I just approached and"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1751.914,"endTime":1755.872,"body":"didn't have any background in"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1751.914,"endTime":1755.872,"body":"that, didn't understand how"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1755.872,"endTime":1759.132,"body":"important it was to be able"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1755.872,"endTime":1759.132,"body":"to say, like I've talked to"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1759.132,"endTime":1761.032,"body":"partners in the newsroom during"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1759.132,"endTime":1761.032,"body":"an election year and they've"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1761.032,"endTime":1763.022,"body":"said like, I was like, what kind"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1761.032,"endTime":1763.022,"body":"of availability do you need?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1763.042,"endTime":1763.665,"body":"It's at 99."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1763.665,"endTime":1764.502,"body":"9, 99."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1764.792,"endTime":1766.712,"body":"99, they're like, how about 100?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1766.712,"endTime":1768.102,"body":"And you're like, well,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1766.712,"endTime":1768.102,"body":"what do you mean?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1768.102,"endTime":1771.742,"body":"It's like, no, but what if we're"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1768.102,"endTime":1771.742,"body":"down for 5 minutes when the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1771.742,"endTime":1773.202,"body":"Supreme Court makes its ruling?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1773.202,"endTime":1773.752,"body":"Or something like that."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1773.902,"endTime":1775.452,"body":"We cannot afford any downtime."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1775.452,"endTime":1776.552,"body":"The answer is 100%."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1776.992,"endTime":1778.702,"body":"You have to be able to"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1776.992,"endTime":1778.702,"body":"have, you have to be able"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1778.702,"endTime":1779.672,"body":"to engage in dialogue there."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1779.692,"endTime":1781.142,"body":"And that is"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1779.692,"endTime":1781.142,"body":"tension, as you point out."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1781.192,"endTime":1782.362,"body":"That is"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1781.192,"endTime":1782.362,"body":"a tension, right?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1782.362,"endTime":1783.402,"body":"Okay, I get it."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1783.422,"endTime":1786.182,"body":"We need to be up when the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1783.422,"endTime":1786.182,"body":"Supreme Court makes its ruling."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1786.312,"endTime":1789.412,"body":"That doesn't mean that our"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1786.312,"endTime":1789.412,"body":"systems need 100 percent uptime."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1789.652,"endTime":1791.752,"body":"It means that we have"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1789.652,"endTime":1791.752,"body":"to find ways to be able"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1791.752,"endTime":1794.692,"body":"to meet our readers and"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1791.752,"endTime":1794.692,"body":"consumers in the ways."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1795.167,"endTime":1798.597,"body":"that can follow the news,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1795.167,"endTime":1798.597,"body":"even accounting for the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1798.597,"endTime":1801.277,"body":"possibility that some system"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1798.597,"endTime":1801.277,"body":"or another might be down."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1801.607,"endTime":1803.367,"body":"You can design a system"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1801.607,"endTime":1803.367,"body":"accordingly with that,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1803.627,"endTime":1805.727,"body":"but you have to be able"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1803.627,"endTime":1805.727,"body":"to have that conversation"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1805.727,"endTime":1806.787,"body":"and that tension in play."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1807.351,"endTime":1810.261,"body":"when I think about, The"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1807.351,"endTime":1810.261,"body":"unique challenges of media"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1810.261,"endTime":1814.292,"body":"engineering, it relates to how"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1810.261,"endTime":1814.292,"body":"an organization came to be."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1815.022,"endTime":1820.422,"body":"So the example I always"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1815.022,"endTime":1820.422,"body":"give is that at Vox, Vox"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1820.422,"endTime":1825.218,"body":"Media more or less started"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1820.422,"endTime":1825.218,"body":"as a product organization,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1825.228,"endTime":1827.888,"body":"started as a technology"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1825.228,"endTime":1827.888,"body":"organization, and it really"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1827.888,"endTime":1829.328,"body":"started with sports blogs."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1831.708,"endTime":1834.368,"body":"So we're going to make"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1831.708,"endTime":1834.368,"body":"it possible for fans of"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1834.768,"endTime":1837.298,"body":"the Cardinals to be able"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1834.768,"endTime":1837.298,"body":"to write about games,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1837.488,"endTime":1839.858,"body":"alongside the journalists"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1837.488,"endTime":1839.858,"body":"who cover those games."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1840.478,"endTime":1842.178,"body":"and so it was effectively"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1840.478,"endTime":1842.178,"body":"a product organization."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1842.198,"endTime":1843.698,"body":"You add a bunch"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1842.198,"endTime":1843.698,"body":"of sites like Vox."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1843.858,"endTime":1846.598,"body":"com and The Verge and"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1843.858,"endTime":1846.598,"body":"Eater and all of them."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1847.011,"endTime":1849.341,"body":"and so what you effectively have"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1847.011,"endTime":1849.341,"body":"is newsrooms that are built on"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1849.341,"endTime":1850.691,"body":"top of a product organization."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1851.496,"endTime":1853.506,"body":"The New York Times"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1851.496,"endTime":1853.506,"body":"is very different."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1853.566,"endTime":1859.706,"body":"You're talking about like a"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1853.566,"endTime":1859.706,"body":"century and a half of journalism"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1859.976,"endTime":1862.886,"body":"and of a newsroom that is sort"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1859.976,"endTime":1862.886,"body":"of steeped in tradition and"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1862.886,"endTime":1866.356,"body":"systems and a newsroom that"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1862.886,"endTime":1866.356,"body":"talks in systems and you've got"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1866.356,"endTime":1869.071,"body":"a technology organization built"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1866.356,"endTime":1869.071,"body":"on top of that newsroom and"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1869.166,"endTime":1871.176,"body":"And to the"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1869.166,"endTime":1871.176,"body":"New York Times is credit."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1871.236,"endTime":1873.936,"body":"The New York Times is held up"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1871.236,"endTime":1873.936,"body":"as a paragon of a successful"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1873.936,"endTime":1875.076,"body":"digital transformation."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1875.346,"endTime":1875.496,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1875.496,"endTime":1876.066,"body":"Into this era."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1876.071,"endTime":1878.736,"body":"But to your point,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1876.071,"endTime":1878.736,"body":"there's this massive."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1879.476,"endTime":1881.786,"body":"Cultural foundation"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1879.476,"endTime":1881.786,"body":"that's already been"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1881.786,"endTime":1883.636,"body":"laid over 150 years."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1883.786,"endTime":1884.116,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1884.416,"endTime":1886.756,"body":"And that cultural"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1884.416,"endTime":1886.756,"body":"foundation also is an"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1886.756,"endTime":1887.956,"body":"operational foundation."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1888.44,"endTime":1892.79,"body":"And so at Vox you were able to"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1888.44,"endTime":1892.79,"body":"say, this is how software works,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1893.61,"endTime":1895.05,"body":"this is how technology works."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1895.78,"endTime":1897.73,"body":"How would you tell the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1895.78,"endTime":1897.73,"body":"news in that context?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1897.88,"endTime":1900.07,"body":"And in the New York Times,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1897.88,"endTime":1900.07,"body":"it's like we have built."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1900.875,"endTime":1904.145,"body":"A tradition from over a century"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1900.875,"endTime":1904.145,"body":"of how to report the news."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1904.265,"endTime":1904.535,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1904.565,"endTime":1906.215,"body":"So then how does"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1904.565,"endTime":1906.215,"body":"technology meet?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1906.215,"endTime":1908.885,"body":"That is very, very different"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1906.215,"endTime":1908.885,"body":"tension and it creates"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1908.89,"endTime":1909.905,"body":"a very different shadow."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1910.445,"endTime":1912.185,"body":"I'm a big"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1910.445,"endTime":1912.185,"body":"fan of the acquired podcast,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1912.185,"endTime":1915.095,"body":"which does like breakdowns"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1912.185,"endTime":1915.095,"body":"of businesses and they did"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1915.095,"endTime":1917.895,"body":"a really interesting episode"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1915.095,"endTime":1917.895,"body":"for me as someone who, you"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1917.895,"endTime":1919.605,"body":"know, I'm, I don't work at the"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1917.895,"endTime":1919.605,"body":"New York Times, but they did"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1919.605,"endTime":1921.975,"body":"a whole breakdown of the New"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1919.605,"endTime":1921.975,"body":"York Times as transformation"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1921.975,"endTime":1923.265,"body":"into digital organization."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1923.295,"endTime":1923.355,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1923.355,"endTime":1923.805,"body":"And it was."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1924.41,"endTime":1926.87,"body":"It was fascinating to think"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1924.41,"endTime":1926.87,"body":"about, and particularly in"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1926.87,"endTime":1929.62,"body":"the context now of rethinking"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1926.87,"endTime":1929.62,"body":"about it through, uh, the"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1929.62,"endTime":1934.6,"body":"Shadoworg piece, because I can"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1929.62,"endTime":1934.6,"body":"only imagine the amount of..."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1935.19,"endTime":1940.15,"body":"Institutional thought processes"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1935.19,"endTime":1940.15,"body":"and culture and ideas that"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1940.15,"endTime":1942.34,"body":"have developed and some of"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1940.15,"endTime":1942.34,"body":"that has been calcified and"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1942.34,"endTime":1943.37,"body":"like, this is how we operate."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1943.82,"endTime":1947.04,"body":"I'm sure some of it is, you"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1943.82,"endTime":1947.04,"body":"know, tribal knowledge too"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1947.04,"endTime":1951.1,"body":"and like, oh, this is how we"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1947.04,"endTime":1951.1,"body":"adjust that and making that"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1951.1,"endTime":1954.15,"body":"transition to, okay, now we are"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1951.1,"endTime":1954.15,"body":"extremely digitally transformed."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1954.16,"endTime":1957.65,"body":"We have applications, we have,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1954.16,"endTime":1957.65,"body":"you know, made purchases."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1957.915,"endTime":1961.005,"body":"We have a massive digital"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1957.915,"endTime":1961.005,"body":"subscriber base, must"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1961.005,"endTime":1963.105,"body":"bring a host of challenges."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1963.755,"endTime":1964.565,"body":"It does."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1964.585,"endTime":1966.255,"body":"I mean, it does bring"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1964.585,"endTime":1966.255,"body":"a lot of challenges."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1966.255,"endTime":1969.105,"body":"At the same time, I think"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1966.255,"endTime":1969.105,"body":"what I've witnessed as"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1969.105,"endTime":1972.015,"body":"this has unfolded is the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1969.105,"endTime":1972.015,"body":"willingness of the organization"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1972.375,"endTime":1973.605,"body":"to meet those challenges."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1973.625,"endTime":1976.005,"body":"Which is not to say that"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1973.625,"endTime":1976.005,"body":"it's easy, or that people"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1976.005,"endTime":1978.565,"body":"are comfortable with it, but"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1976.005,"endTime":1978.565,"body":"we have an executive editor"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1978.835,"endTime":1982.975,"body":"who is relatively new to his"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1978.835,"endTime":1982.975,"body":"role, he was sended to that"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1982.975,"endTime":1985.105,"body":"role, but before that, like,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1982.975,"endTime":1985.105,"body":"we were working directly"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1985.105,"endTime":1987.785,"body":"with this executive editor to"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1985.105,"endTime":1987.785,"body":"figure out What is the role"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1987.785,"endTime":1990.295,"body":"of technology in telling the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1987.785,"endTime":1990.295,"body":"stories of the New York Times?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1990.295,"endTime":1993.625,"body":"The fact that we are in the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1990.295,"endTime":1993.625,"body":"position we are in right now"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1993.625,"endTime":1997.295,"body":"as a business, with the digital"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1993.625,"endTime":1997.295,"body":"subscription model that we have,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1997.315,"endTime":1999.955,"body":"is a testament to how flexible"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1997.315,"endTime":1999.955,"body":"the organization has been to"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1999.955,"endTime":2002.905,"body":"be able to say, you know what,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":1999.955,"endTime":2002.905,"body":"we have to be able to figure"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2002.905,"endTime":2005.405,"body":"out how to integrate these"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2002.905,"endTime":2005.405,"body":"two different cultures, these"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2005.445,"endTime":2008.175,"body":"two different businesses, and"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2005.445,"endTime":2008.175,"body":"these two different conceptions"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2008.175,"endTime":2009.215,"body":"of the New York Times."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2009.56,"endTime":2012.05,"body":"So, you know, you asked me"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2009.56,"endTime":2012.05,"body":"earlier like, who's doing it"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2012.05,"endTime":2014.81,"body":"well, like I'm not, I'm, I'm"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2012.05,"endTime":2014.81,"body":"not here saying that it's,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2014.96,"endTime":2016.52,"body":"that it's perfect or easy."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2016.525,"endTime":2016.955,"body":"We're doing pretty well."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2016.955,"endTime":2019.07,"body":"We're, I'm just saying,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2016.955,"endTime":2019.07,"body":"you know, New York Times"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2019.07,"endTime":2021.11,"body":"reconciles, its shadow"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2019.07,"endTime":2021.11,"body":"pretty straightforwardly."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2021.71,"endTime":2023.06,"body":"There's always gonna"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2021.71,"endTime":2023.06,"body":"be something that's"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2023.06,"endTime":2023.72,"body":"gonna piss you off."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2023.72,"endTime":2025.49,"body":"There's always gonna be"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2023.72,"endTime":2025.49,"body":"something that gets in the way."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2025.81,"endTime":2028.6,"body":"Those, and, and I say this"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2025.81,"endTime":2028.6,"body":"in the talk, like there is"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2028.6,"endTime":2031.51,"body":"no perfect reconciliation."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2031.51,"endTime":2033.23,"body":"There is no perfect resolution."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2034.14,"endTime":2037.2,"body":"The work is ongoing and the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2034.14,"endTime":2037.2,"body":"talk is Titled shadow work."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2037.34,"endTime":2038.61,"body":"And so it is an"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2037.34,"endTime":2038.61,"body":"constantly evolving"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2038.61,"endTime":2041.885,"body":"process.Thank"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2038.61,"endTime":2041.885,"body":"you for taking the time"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2041.885,"endTime":2043.045,"body":"to dive into this with me."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2043.045,"endTime":2047.185,"body":"I, I've really enjoyed the"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2043.045,"endTime":2047.185,"body":"conversation and it has, I"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2047.215,"endTime":2049.465,"body":"think, opened up some new"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2047.215,"endTime":2049.465,"body":"thought avenues for me."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2049.685,"endTime":2051.725,"body":"I I really appreciate you"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2049.685,"endTime":2051.725,"body":"coming to Upon podcast"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2051.725,"endTime":2052.865,"body":"to talk about it with us."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2053.255,"endTime":2055.505,"body":"If you are a listener and you"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2053.255,"endTime":2055.505,"body":"wanted to follow along with"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2055.505,"endTime":2056.67,"body":"David, where can you find him?"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2057.325,"endTime":2060.405,"body":"Yeah, so in"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2057.325,"endTime":2060.405,"body":"the roiling hellscape of"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2060.405,"endTime":2064.985,"body":"social media, I've sort of"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2060.405,"endTime":2064.985,"body":"pulled sharply back from the"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2064.995,"endTime":2068.225,"body":"company, the company known as"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2064.995,"endTime":2068.225,"body":"Twitter, but like my handle"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2068.225,"endTime":2070.425,"body":"there and in a lot of places"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2068.225,"endTime":2070.425,"body":"is tangentialism, which"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2070.425,"endTime":2073.895,"body":"is like a handle I came up"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2070.425,"endTime":2073.895,"body":"with when I was in my 20s."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2073.905,"endTime":2075.375,"body":"So that's, that's,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2073.905,"endTime":2075.375,"body":"that is what it is."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2075.385,"endTime":2078.565,"body":"So you find me there, but I"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2075.385,"endTime":2078.565,"body":"actually post a lot on Mastodon."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2079.085,"endTime":2081.005,"body":"And so if you're looking"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2079.085,"endTime":2081.005,"body":"for me on Mastodon, you can"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2081.005,"endTime":2085.415,"body":"look for at David at yee,"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2081.005,"endTime":2085.415,"body":"Y E E dot camp, C A M P."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2085.97,"endTime":2087.29,"body":"and that's where I do"},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2085.97,"endTime":2087.29,"body":"most of my writing now."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2087.56,"endTime":2088.28,"body":"Fantastic."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2088.34,"endTime":2090.32,"body":"Uh, David, I've really"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2088.34,"endTime":2090.32,"body":"enjoyed this conversation."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2090.56,"endTime":2092.0,"body":"Thanks so much for"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2090.56,"endTime":2092.0,"body":"coming on the podcast."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2092.0,"endTime":2093.92,"body":"And, uh, if you want more"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2092.0,"endTime":2093.92,"body":"insights from leaders"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2093.925,"endTime":2096.05,"body":"like David, you can check"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2093.925,"endTime":2096.05,"body":"out our sub stack at dev"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2096.05,"endTime":2097.46,"body":"opted dot sub stack.com."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2097.82,"endTime":2098.84,"body":"David, thanks for coming on."},{"speaker":"David Yee","startTime":2099.02,"endTime":2099.59,"body":"Thanks for having me."}]}