{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":0.0,"endTime":0.79,"body":"I'll kick us off."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":0.79,"endTime":1.81,"body":"I have a lot of thoughts."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1.81,"endTime":7.455,"body":"I can't think of any more of an exciting"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1.81,"endTime":7.455,"body":"topic to start with, Conor, than taxes."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":7.615,"endTime":8.835,"body":"I know you love taxes."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":10.031,"endTime":13.505,"body":"Is your engineering team focused"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":10.031,"endTime":13.505,"body":"on efficiency, but struggling with"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":13.58,"endTime":15.65,"body":"inaccessible or costly Dora metrics."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":15.993,"endTime":18.603,"body":"Insights into the health of your"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":15.993,"endTime":18.603,"body":"engineering team, don't have"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":18.603,"endTime":20.403,"body":"to be complicated or expensive."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":20.943,"endTime":23.831,"body":"That's why LinearB is introducing"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":20.943,"endTime":23.831,"body":"free door metrics for all."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":24.161,"endTime":27.831,"body":"Say goodbye to spreadsheets"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":24.161,"endTime":27.831,"body":"and manual tracking or paying"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":27.831,"endTime":28.851,"body":"for your door and metrics."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":29.361,"endTime":30.921,"body":"LinearB is giving away a free."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":31.221,"endTime":35.627,"body":"Comprehensive Dora dashboard pack the"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":31.221,"endTime":35.627,"body":"central insights, including all Forkey"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":35.627,"endTime":37.847,"body":"Dora metrics tailored to your team's data."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":38.137,"endTime":42.007,"body":"Industry standard benchmarks for gauging"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":38.137,"endTime":42.007,"body":"performance and setting data-driven goals."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":42.267,"endTime":46.017,"body":"Plus additional leading metrics, including"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":42.267,"endTime":46.017,"body":"emerge, frequency, and pull request size."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":46.334,"endTime":48.074,"body":"Empower your team with"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":46.334,"endTime":48.074,"body":"the metrics they deserve."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":48.374,"endTime":52.574,"body":"Sign up for your free Dora dashboard"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":48.374,"endTime":52.574,"body":"today at LinearB dot IO slash Dora."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":52.814,"endTime":54.434,"body":"Or follow the link in the show notes."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":55.604,"endTime":56.364,"body":"Hey, everyone."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":56.444,"endTime":57.834,"body":"Welcome back to Dev Interrupted."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":58.174,"endTime":61.614,"body":"We're excited to be with you here in the"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":58.174,"endTime":61.614,"body":"new year, and we have a fun treat for you."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":61.934,"endTime":63.104,"body":"I'm obviously Conor Bronsdon."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":63.104,"endTime":64.854,"body":"You've probably heard my voice"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":63.104,"endTime":64.854,"body":"before if you've listened to this"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":64.854,"endTime":69.054,"body":"show, and I'm delighted to be joined"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":64.854,"endTime":69.054,"body":"once again by our original OG host,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":69.054,"endTime":74.664,"body":"the LinearB COO, Dan Lines, and"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":69.054,"endTime":74.664,"body":"he is also a fantastic co founder."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":74.664,"endTime":78.214,"body":"So we have some founding topics to"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":74.664,"endTime":78.214,"body":"dig into today, and we have one of"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":78.214,"endTime":82.514,"body":"our fan favorites who is going to be"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":78.214,"endTime":82.514,"body":"a regular guest this year and kind"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":82.514,"endTime":83.824,"body":"of serve in a co host role with us."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":83.824,"endTime":86.824,"body":"And that's Kelly Vaughn, Director"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":83.824,"endTime":86.824,"body":"of Engineering at Spot AI, an"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":86.854,"endTime":88.794,"body":"entrepreneur in her own right, speaker."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":88.984,"endTime":92.414,"body":"Kelly, we're so excited to feature"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":88.984,"endTime":92.414,"body":"you throughout the season here at Dev"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":92.414,"endTime":94.174,"body":"Interrupted as our regular expert."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":94.174,"endTime":98.144,"body":"And having both you and Dan here to dive"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":94.174,"endTime":98.144,"body":"into some of these topics is just ideal."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":98.154,"endTime":99.134,"body":"Thank you so much for coming on."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":99.604,"endTime":102.204,"body":"I am so excited to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":99.604,"endTime":102.204,"body":"be doing this even more regularly."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":102.354,"endTime":106.804,"body":"You'll get to, uh, listen to my hot takes,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":102.354,"endTime":106.804,"body":"or my old takes, or really terrible takes."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":106.804,"endTime":107.674,"body":"A whole lot more now."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":107.921,"endTime":110.511,"body":"And I think your hot"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":107.921,"endTime":110.511,"body":"takes in particular are going to be great"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":110.511,"endTime":114.401,"body":"with Dan, because I love to push him on"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":110.511,"endTime":114.401,"body":"things a little bit and see where his"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":114.401,"endTime":117.711,"body":"reactions are, because you'd be surprised,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":114.401,"endTime":117.711,"body":"but he has some good hot takes too."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":118.051,"endTime":119.561,"body":"We just gotta make sure"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":118.051,"endTime":119.561,"body":"he gets them on recording."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":120.151,"endTime":123.341,"body":"Not as good as Kelly,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":120.151,"endTime":123.341,"body":"but Kelly, it's awesome to have you."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":123.461,"endTime":125.461,"body":"I am super stoked to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":123.461,"endTime":125.461,"body":"be doing this with you."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":125.991,"endTime":126.941,"body":"Same, same."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":127.332,"endTime":129.032,"body":"So let's"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":127.332,"endTime":129.032,"body":"kind of dive right in."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":129.042,"endTime":131.742,"body":"We're going to discuss some of the"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":129.042,"endTime":131.742,"body":"top topics we've heard in engineering"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":131.752,"endTime":134.432,"body":"leadership circles lately, and a"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":131.752,"endTime":134.432,"body":"couple of topics that have actually"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":134.432,"endTime":135.902,"body":"been driven by listener questions."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":136.162,"endTime":138.762,"body":"And listeners, I'll just note"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":136.162,"endTime":138.762,"body":"here before we officially start."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":138.912,"endTime":142.122,"body":"If there is a topic that you want"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":138.912,"endTime":142.122,"body":"to hear us discuss, let us know."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":142.342,"endTime":145.162,"body":"We want to hear from you, whether"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":142.342,"endTime":145.162,"body":"that's on LinkedIn, Twitter,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":145.182,"endTime":147.922,"body":"our sub stack, and we'll try to"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":145.182,"endTime":147.922,"body":"get it into an upcoming episode."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":147.922,"endTime":151.002,"body":"We'll be doing these episodes once"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":147.922,"endTime":151.002,"body":"or twice a month, time permitting."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":151.112,"endTime":154.662,"body":"We have a really exciting"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":151.112,"endTime":154.662,"body":"initial topic and that is taxes."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":155.062,"endTime":160.642,"body":"Uh, I know everyone's so stoked to"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":155.062,"endTime":160.642,"body":"kick off the episode of this, but,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":160.672,"endTime":164.482,"body":"both of you, I think are uniquely"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":160.672,"endTime":164.482,"body":"positioned to have this discussion"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":164.592,"endTime":168.205,"body":"because you both have experience working"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":164.592,"endTime":168.205,"body":"with engineering teams worldwide."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":168.425,"endTime":171.285,"body":"As well as in the United States,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":168.425,"endTime":171.285,"body":"where we're all based, and"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":171.285,"endTime":172.625,"body":"you've both been founders before."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":173.165,"endTime":178.315,"body":"And recently, we've seen this discussion"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":173.165,"endTime":178.315,"body":"ignite online, where many tech"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":178.325,"endTime":182.085,"body":"companies have begun to move product and"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":178.325,"endTime":182.085,"body":"engineering operations outside of the U."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":182.085,"endTime":182.265,"body":"S."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":182.265,"endTime":183.085,"body":"due to costs."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":183.535,"endTime":186.825,"body":"And some in the industry are now"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":183.535,"endTime":186.825,"body":"theorizing that this is directly"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":186.825,"endTime":190.335,"body":"related to the recent tax code"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":186.825,"endTime":190.335,"body":"change in section 174 of the U."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":190.335,"endTime":190.435,"body":"S."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":190.445,"endTime":192.815,"body":"tax law that has put this into overdrive."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":193.035,"endTime":195.885,"body":"Gheorghile, the pragmatic engineer,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":193.035,"endTime":195.885,"body":"in particular, has started to bring"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":195.885,"endTime":197.835,"body":"this to light over the last few weeks."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":198.35,"endTime":201.98,"body":"And to give a quick summary for our"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":198.35,"endTime":201.98,"body":"audience, basically, all costs related"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":201.98,"endTime":205.92,"body":"to R\u0026 D, so that's software engineering,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":201.98,"endTime":205.92,"body":"including labor for software development."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":206.4,"endTime":210.06,"body":"These costs, you used to be able to write"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":206.4,"endTime":210.06,"body":"them off as expenses, and treat them"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":210.06,"endTime":212.975,"body":"differently, and it would help lower"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":210.06,"endTime":212.975,"body":"your tax burden in the United States."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":213.285,"endTime":217.135,"body":"Now though, these costs have to be"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":213.285,"endTime":217.135,"body":"capitalized and amortized over five years,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":217.155,"endTime":218.985,"body":"or 15 if labor is done outside of the U."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":218.985,"endTime":222.655,"body":"S., and many feel this is deeply"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":218.985,"endTime":222.655,"body":"impacting bootstrap startups."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":222.835,"endTime":226.115,"body":"I'm going to give one example before"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":222.835,"endTime":226.115,"body":"I dive into Kelly and Dan's thoughts."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":226.455,"endTime":229.325,"body":"And this is from a small business"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":226.455,"endTime":229.325,"body":"owner in Pennsylvania that"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":229.325,"endTime":231.795,"body":"said, our taxes increased 500%."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":231.905,"endTime":235.385,"body":"It's so bad that if it's not repealed,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":231.905,"endTime":235.385,"body":"we'll find a way to move our company to"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":235.385,"endTime":237.265,"body":"Canada, where my co founder is located."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":237.545,"endTime":239.535,"body":"We're a high growth"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":237.545,"endTime":239.535,"body":"technology software company."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":239.535,"endTime":241.935,"body":"So it seems this law is doing"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":239.535,"endTime":241.935,"body":"the exact opposite of its intent."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":242.29,"endTime":243.36,"body":"Pushing business out of the U."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":243.36,"endTime":243.65,"body":"S."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":243.66,"endTime":244.89,"body":"rather than keeping them here."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":245.23,"endTime":247.96,"body":"It's having a major impact,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":245.23,"endTime":247.96,"body":"particularly on bootstrap startups."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":248.29,"endTime":249.35,"body":"Is the era of U."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":249.35,"endTime":249.5,"body":"S."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":249.5,"endTime":252.06,"body":"based software startup"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":249.5,"endTime":252.06,"body":"dominance coming to a close?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":252.32,"endTime":253.91,"body":"Yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":254.117,"endTime":254.907,"body":"I'll kick us off."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":254.907,"endTime":255.927,"body":"I have a lot of thoughts."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":255.927,"endTime":261.572,"body":"I can't think of any more of an exciting"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":255.927,"endTime":261.572,"body":"topic to start with, Conor, than taxes."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":261.732,"endTime":262.952,"body":"I know you love taxes."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":263.158,"endTime":265.758,"body":"Okay, there's a"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":263.158,"endTime":265.758,"body":"few things that come to mind."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":265.928,"endTime":271.618,"body":"One is, you have like these lawmakers"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":265.928,"endTime":271.618,"body":"that have a much different intention"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":271.998,"endTime":278.278,"body":"than someone that's trying to found"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":271.998,"endTime":278.278,"body":"a company or create something new"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":278.328,"endTime":284.058,"body":"or be really driven to innovate"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":278.328,"endTime":284.058,"body":"I remember for myself and for Ori"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":284.098,"endTime":288.608,"body":"early on when we started LinearB"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":284.098,"endTime":288.608,"body":"It's like you want to focus on value."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":288.658,"endTime":290.148,"body":"You want to focus on your product."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":290.148,"endTime":291.688,"body":"You want to focus on customers."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":292.088,"endTime":298.468,"body":"You want to lower the things that are"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":292.088,"endTime":298.468,"body":"distracting you from doing that, and this"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":298.468,"endTime":304.958,"body":"seems to add an additional complication"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":298.468,"endTime":304.958,"body":"of what you need to think about in terms"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":304.958,"endTime":310.218,"body":"of financing, which is obviously a bad"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":304.958,"endTime":310.218,"body":"thing for innovation and new startups."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":310.602,"endTime":315.072,"body":"The other thing that hit me is it"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":310.602,"endTime":315.072,"body":"seemed unexpected, which is really lame."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":315.282,"endTime":318.392,"body":"Like a 500 percent increase, that's crazy."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":318.452,"endTime":321.872,"body":"And if that's going to hit you"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":318.452,"endTime":321.872,"body":"out of nowhere, I don't know."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":321.872,"endTime":325.012,"body":"I can see why it's like, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":321.872,"endTime":325.012,"body":"I want to move my startup to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":325.012,"endTime":326.582,"body":"Canada or something like that."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":326.582,"endTime":333.487,"body":"Now the, the last thing that I'll"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":326.582,"endTime":333.487,"body":"say,  I had a lot of success with"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":333.557,"endTime":339.077,"body":"engineers that were not from the US"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":333.557,"endTime":339.077,"body":"when we were at my previous startup,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":339.127,"endTime":340.807,"body":"not LinearB, the previous one."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":341.517,"endTime":349.687,"body":"Early on in a company, I love the idea of"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":341.517,"endTime":349.687,"body":"having your CEO, your head of product, and"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":349.687,"endTime":352.357,"body":"the engineering team all in one location."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":353.277,"endTime":355.367,"body":"I think that matters a lot early on."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":355.367,"endTime":356.467,"body":"Why does it matter?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":356.797,"endTime":360.737,"body":"You're iterating, you're"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":356.797,"endTime":360.737,"body":"collaborating, you have an idea,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":360.737,"endTime":364.247,"body":"you're whiteboarding, things are"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":360.737,"endTime":364.247,"body":"moving really, really, really quickly."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":365.142,"endTime":368.862,"body":"But what I've seen is as the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":365.142,"endTime":368.862,"body":"company matures, let's say you"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":368.862,"endTime":372.802,"body":"start to getting the 50 engineers,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":368.862,"endTime":372.802,"body":"70 engineers, a hundred engineers."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":373.642,"endTime":375.332,"body":"And that's what happened to our startup."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":375.422,"endTime":376.902,"body":"I had awesome success."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":377.132,"endTime":379.322,"body":"And this was back in the day a bit."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":379.322,"endTime":380.442,"body":"I know times have changed."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":380.742,"endTime":384.795,"body":"Hiring out of Ukraine, Ukraine"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":380.742,"endTime":384.795,"body":"engineers, much cheaper."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":385.285,"endTime":390.495,"body":"Honestly, if you're paying someone in"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":385.285,"endTime":390.495,"body":"the U S like a hundred K or 120 K you can"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":390.495,"endTime":393.582,"body":"get honestly, the same talent, 30, 40k."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":394.242,"endTime":398.502,"body":"So I know there's a ton to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":394.242,"endTime":398.502,"body":"unpack there, but those are the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":398.502,"endTime":399.802,"body":"things that came to mind for me."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":400.154,"endTime":401.301,"body":"That's an interesting take."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":401.574,"endTime":405.024,"body":"do understand that there's"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":401.574,"endTime":405.024,"body":"absolutely benefit to being"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":405.064,"endTime":406.794,"body":"face to face, working in person."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":407.014,"endTime":409.454,"body":"Uh, you can collaborate a"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":407.014,"endTime":409.454,"body":"whole lot more effectively."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":409.804,"endTime":412.464,"body":"I will say Spot did not"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":409.804,"endTime":412.464,"body":"go in that direction."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":412.514,"endTime":415.304,"body":"Most of our senior leadership"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":412.514,"endTime":415.304,"body":"team is in the Bay Area."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":415.314,"endTime":417.004,"body":"Our product team is in the Bay Area."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":417.364,"endTime":421.079,"body":"And there was one point where"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":417.364,"endTime":421.079,"body":"I was the Engineering Leader"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":421.189,"endTime":423.239,"body":"at Spot I'm on the East Coast."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":423.489,"endTime":426.249,"body":"It's about the intention"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":423.489,"endTime":426.249,"body":"that you go into building."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":426.289,"endTime":429.659,"body":"And if you're going to build with"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":426.289,"endTime":429.659,"body":"the intention of being a fully"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":429.659,"endTime":432.069,"body":"remote company, you're going to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":429.659,"endTime":432.069,"body":"approach it very differently."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":432.439,"endTime":436.339,"body":"And you'll find ways to continue"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":432.439,"endTime":436.339,"body":"to be more efficient, even if you"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":436.349,"endTime":437.609,"body":"have a remotely distributed team."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":438.239,"endTime":444.289,"body":"Now, that aside, Going back to the"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":438.239,"endTime":444.289,"body":"wonderful topic of taxes, I don't"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":444.299,"endTime":447.059,"body":"see Section 174 sticking around."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":447.099,"endTime":451.649,"body":"I do think that it's going to massively"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":447.099,"endTime":451.649,"body":"impact Innovation in the United States."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":451.979,"endTime":454.989,"body":"I think it was a mistake to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":451.979,"endTime":454.989,"body":"even pass and I feel like it"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":454.989,"endTime":456.339,"body":"was a big whoopsie in general."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":456.339,"endTime":459.179,"body":"They were like, oh wait, this thing"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":456.339,"endTime":459.179,"body":"is now here and now we have to adjust"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":459.179,"endTime":463.553,"body":"so that kind of sucks But we've been"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":459.179,"endTime":463.553,"body":"moving, the capital markets have been"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":463.763,"endTime":467.583,"body":"screaming at us for quite some time"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":463.763,"endTime":467.583,"body":"saying we're no longer in a world that"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":467.583,"endTime":470.623,"body":"is growth at all costs, it's about"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":467.583,"endTime":470.623,"body":"efficiency, it's about profitability."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":470.933,"endTime":475.063,"body":"So we have already been moving in a"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":470.933,"endTime":475.063,"body":"direction where we're, we're hiring, you"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":475.063,"endTime":478.993,"body":"know, we're nearshoring, we're offshoring,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":475.063,"endTime":478.993,"body":"we're looking for that cheaper talent."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":479.023,"endTime":482.983,"body":"And so I think section 174 is"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":479.023,"endTime":482.983,"body":"going to exacerbate the issue."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":483.103,"endTime":485.383,"body":"I think we've already been"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":483.103,"endTime":485.383,"body":"moving in that direction."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":486.158,"endTime":488.708,"body":"Yeah, I think you're"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":486.158,"endTime":488.708,"body":"spot on, Kelly, as far as this is a"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":488.708,"endTime":493.438,"body":"thing where it is making a problem that"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":488.708,"endTime":493.438,"body":"was already there worse, but we are"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":493.438,"endTime":494.998,"body":"in a competitive global marketplace."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":495.018,"endTime":500.528,"body":"And I mean, particularly, you know,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":495.018,"endTime":500.528,"body":"after 2020 and the push to have remote"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":500.528,"endTime":502.958,"body":"work be more and more accessible and"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":500.528,"endTime":502.958,"body":"people all having to experience it,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":502.958,"endTime":506.718,"body":"whether they wanted to or not, we've"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":502.958,"endTime":506.718,"body":"really opened our eyes, I think, to"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":506.738,"endTime":508.508,"body":"the availability of talent worldwide."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":508.953,"endTime":512.883,"body":"And to your point about setting"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":508.953,"endTime":512.883,"body":"up engineering teams now gives you"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":513.093,"endTime":516.403,"body":"access to this wider talent pool,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":513.093,"endTime":516.403,"body":"which can be a huge advantage."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":516.423,"endTime":520.533,"body":"Dan, you spoke to your experience hiring"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":516.423,"endTime":520.533,"body":"Ukraine with CloudLock several years ago."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":520.733,"endTime":524.143,"body":"I know Kelly, you've done hiring Poland,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":520.733,"endTime":524.143,"body":"you know, we have team members in Israel."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":524.483,"endTime":530.058,"body":"And I think there is a huge advantage to"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":524.483,"endTime":530.058,"body":"this ability to access this global talent"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":530.068,"endTime":534.658,"body":"marketplace, whether that's for costs"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":530.068,"endTime":534.658,"body":"or simply competitiveness as far as, you"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":534.658,"endTime":536.278,"body":"know, having the best people on your team."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":536.648,"endTime":538.968,"body":"But there is also something special"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":536.648,"endTime":538.968,"body":"about in person collaboration."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":539.298,"endTime":542.128,"body":"And I, I think it's hard to make"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":539.298,"endTime":542.128,"body":"the decision about, you know,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":542.128,"endTime":543.328,"body":"where do you balance there."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":543.648,"endTime":547.488,"body":"And so, I would love to dive into what"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":543.648,"endTime":547.488,"body":"you said a bit, Dan, which was you"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":547.488,"endTime":550.258,"body":"really feel that there's something"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":547.488,"endTime":550.258,"body":"special about having that opportunity"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":550.288,"endTime":554.458,"body":"early on in a startup to scale from"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":550.288,"endTime":554.458,"body":"an initial, you know, crew of people,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":554.458,"endTime":557.348,"body":"maybe the first 10 or so who are"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":554.458,"endTime":557.348,"body":"building that product, really iterating"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":557.358,"endTime":559.018,"body":"on it, having that be in person."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":559.028,"endTime":562.038,"body":"How do you make the transition"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":559.028,"endTime":562.038,"body":"to, hey, we now want to access"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":562.038,"endTime":563.338,"body":"this global talent marketplace."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":563.718,"endTime":567.198,"body":"Or if you couldn't co locate, let's"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":563.718,"endTime":567.198,"body":"say it was, middle of the pandemic"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":567.198,"endTime":569.048,"body":"or simply, costs are too high."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":569.258,"endTime":571.888,"body":"How would you approach setting"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":569.258,"endTime":571.888,"body":"that organization up differently?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":572.249,"endTime":575.439,"body":"What I like about"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":572.249,"endTime":575.439,"body":"what Kelly said is she said"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":575.439,"endTime":577.319,"body":"something like intention matters."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":578.514,"endTime":584.244,"body":"So if you're remote from day one and"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":578.514,"endTime":584.244,"body":"you know you're in that situation, I"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":584.244,"endTime":587.434,"body":"would assume, Kelly, you're, you're"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":584.244,"endTime":587.434,"body":"planning stuff on your calendar."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":587.434,"endTime":591.904,"body":"You're doing certain things to know,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":587.434,"endTime":591.904,"body":"okay, this is when we collaborate."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":592.204,"endTime":592.674,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":592.734,"endTime":596.934,"body":"I love getting in a room"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":592.734,"endTime":596.934,"body":"with a group of engineers and product"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":596.994,"endTime":598.624,"body":"people and creating something."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":598.921,"endTime":601.681,"body":"And I think it's like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":598.921,"endTime":601.681,"body":"a speed thing early on."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":601.791,"endTime":608.301,"body":"And the reason that I also included the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":601.791,"endTime":608.301,"body":"CEO is oftentimes in a very early startup."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":608.301,"endTime":611.631,"body":"Let's say you have 10 people, you"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":608.301,"endTime":611.631,"body":"have 15 people, something like that."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":612.151,"endTime":614.351,"body":"I always like to keep the CEO looped in."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":614.361,"endTime":617.641,"body":"There's no, uh, Hey, is"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":614.361,"endTime":617.641,"body":"it in the right vision?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":617.931,"endTime":622.011,"body":"Cause like the worst thing that can happen"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":617.931,"endTime":622.011,"body":"is you do a bunch of collaboration between"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":622.011,"endTime":625.761,"body":"product and engineering, and then the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":622.011,"endTime":625.761,"body":"CEO comes in and says like, and you think"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":625.761,"endTime":629.071,"body":"you have something amazing and see, it"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":625.761,"endTime":629.071,"body":"was like, Oh, that's not in my vision."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":629.111,"endTime":633.251,"body":"And you find out three days later,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":629.111,"endTime":633.251,"body":"like that's such like a nasty feeling."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":633.591,"endTime":637.531,"body":"So that's kind of more where I was saying"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":633.591,"endTime":637.531,"body":"like, okay, everyone may be like, it"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":637.531,"endTime":641.271,"body":"doesn't even have to be co located even"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":637.531,"endTime":641.271,"body":"like closer time zones or like you're"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":641.321,"endTime":643.791,"body":"staying together matters so much for me."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":644.651,"endTime":648.621,"body":"And then later on you get to like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":644.651,"endTime":648.621,"body":"70 engineers and like you have more"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":648.621,"endTime":651.921,"body":"and more work to do and you start"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":648.621,"endTime":651.921,"body":"thinking about efficiency, I would"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":651.921,"endTime":655.741,"body":"just want to say I think there's great"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":651.921,"endTime":655.741,"body":"engineering talent all over the world."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":656.191,"endTime":659.631,"body":"It's not like only the US has good"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":656.191,"endTime":659.631,"body":"talent or something like that."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":659.631,"endTime":661.481,"body":"Again, I'll speak back to Ukraine."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":662.141,"endTime":667.871,"body":"These guys and girls were super smart,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":662.141,"endTime":667.871,"body":"just as talented as the people in the US."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":668.341,"endTime":670.301,"body":"Now they cost a lot less."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":670.471,"endTime":671.901,"body":"That's the truth about it."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":672.067,"endTime":675.534,"body":"One thing that I will say, Kelly,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":672.067,"endTime":675.534,"body":"to get your, your perspective on"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":675.534,"endTime":679.294,"body":"when we, we were in Boston and"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":675.534,"endTime":679.294,"body":"we have people in Israel, and we"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":679.294,"endTime":681.704,"body":"expanded out a team into the Ukraine."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":681.704,"endTime":683.244,"body":"And you know, what was the toughest part?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":683.563,"endTime":686.873,"body":"Who was the product owner that"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":683.563,"endTime":686.873,"body":"would work with the team in Ukraine?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":687.333,"endTime":688.013,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":689.253,"endTime":695.113,"body":"And we found that there was"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":689.253,"endTime":695.113,"body":"only one of our product owners that"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":695.123,"endTime":698.463,"body":"had, I don't know what it was, I don't"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":695.123,"endTime":698.463,"body":"know if it's intention or it's like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":698.523,"endTime":704.433,"body":"EQ, she was amazing at communication"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":698.523,"endTime":704.433,"body":"and working with this team in Ukraine"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":704.433,"endTime":706.403,"body":"and that's the key to making it work."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":706.713,"endTime":710.593,"body":"None of our other product owners, not"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":706.713,"endTime":710.593,"body":"because they were bad, were able to do it."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":710.593,"endTime":712.453,"body":"There was too much"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":710.593,"endTime":712.453,"body":"communication breakdown."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":712.793,"endTime":714.103,"body":"Yeah, no, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":714.103,"endTime":717.543,"body":"As soon as you expand overseas, and"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":714.103,"endTime":717.543,"body":"I believe I talked about this in the"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":717.553,"endTime":719.553,"body":"episode where I was expanding into Poland."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":719.973,"endTime":722.933,"body":"Uh, this is one of the most"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":719.973,"endTime":722.933,"body":"challenging things you are going to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":722.933,"endTime":727.033,"body":"face as you expand overseas or you"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":722.933,"endTime":727.033,"body":"start to build a team elsewhere is"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":727.163,"endTime":732.083,"body":"as you create an ocean between the"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":727.163,"endTime":732.083,"body":"product and the team building it,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":732.628,"endTime":735.338,"body":"you're going to have to be much more"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":732.628,"endTime":735.338,"body":"intentional, I want to keep on using"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":735.338,"endTime":739.268,"body":"that word, about communicating the"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":735.338,"endTime":739.268,"body":"history of the product, where you're"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":739.268,"endTime":742.218,"body":"headed, why we made the decisions we"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":739.268,"endTime":742.218,"body":"made in the past, why we're making"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":742.218,"endTime":743.508,"body":"the decisions we're making now."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":743.738,"endTime":746.998,"body":"Because they don't have the same"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":743.738,"endTime":746.998,"body":"context, and because they're not"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":746.998,"endTime":751.608,"body":"physically there, or even in a closer"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":746.998,"endTime":751.608,"body":"time zone, they're going to miss out on"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":751.608,"endTime":755.138,"body":"context in passing from conversations"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":751.608,"endTime":755.138,"body":"that are actively happening."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":755.258,"endTime":759.558,"body":"So you have to have a really strong"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":755.258,"endTime":759.558,"body":"product owner, as you said, to be able"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":759.558,"endTime":763.108,"body":"to communicate that in a way that's"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":759.558,"endTime":763.108,"body":"going to make sense to them as well."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":763.325,"endTime":765.505,"body":"I think you're"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":763.325,"endTime":765.505,"body":"both really on track with this"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":765.505,"endTime":769.815,"body":"intentionality piece, and like, the"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":765.505,"endTime":769.815,"body":"need to say, hey, we have to understand"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":769.815,"endTime":773.225,"body":"the differences between how we're"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":769.815,"endTime":773.225,"body":"constructed versus how we used to be."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":773.615,"endTime":777.415,"body":"I remember I talked to Darren Murph,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":773.615,"endTime":777.415,"body":"the head of remote at GitLab back in"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":777.415,"endTime":781.295,"body":"the day, and one of the things that he"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":777.415,"endTime":781.295,"body":"really highlighted when I was talking"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":781.295,"endTime":784.045,"body":"to him about how they were successfully"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":781.295,"endTime":784.045,"body":"doing remote work early in the pandemic,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":784.045,"endTime":789.505,"body":"how they could kind of teach others"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":784.045,"endTime":789.505,"body":"to be successful in this, was that"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":789.78,"endTime":793.71,"body":"they had very intentionally set up"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":789.78,"endTime":793.71,"body":"their communication to facilitate it."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":793.86,"endTime":797.21,"body":"And I think a lot of companies,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":793.86,"endTime":797.21,"body":"because they were pushed in doing"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":797.21,"endTime":801.18,"body":"remote work, or maybe moved along"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":797.21,"endTime":801.18,"body":"faster than they intended to, didn't"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":801.27,"endTime":802.37,"body":"have the time to think about that."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":802.37,"endTime":805.1,"body":"And suddenly they were just delivering"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":802.37,"endTime":805.1,"body":"on, Hey, we got to deliver our products."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":805.1,"endTime":806.92,"body":"We got to, you know, build"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":805.1,"endTime":806.92,"body":"this, we got to sell."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":807.26,"endTime":812.11,"body":"And that lack of intentionality really"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":807.26,"endTime":812.11,"body":"starts to grind you down as your company"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":812.23,"endTime":815.56,"body":"hits Dunbar's number, hits, you know,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":812.23,"endTime":815.56,"body":"a hundred plus headcount because,  it"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":815.61,"endTime":819.31,"body":"gets, becomes a lot harder to rely on"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":815.61,"endTime":819.31,"body":"those like tribal pieces of knowledge"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":819.31,"endTime":822.14,"body":"that have been built in where people"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":819.31,"endTime":822.14,"body":"go, Oh, I, I know how to do this."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":822.14,"endTime":823.06,"body":"I've been here for a while."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":823.1,"endTime":825.29,"body":"I think you're, you're both"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":823.1,"endTime":825.29,"body":"really on track with that need."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":825.7,"endTime":831.23,"body":"And it's interesting because I think"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":825.7,"endTime":831.23,"body":"there's this secondary layer that is also"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":831.23,"endTime":835.98,"body":"coming in here, and frankly, it's part"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":831.23,"endTime":835.98,"body":"of why we've seen potentially layoffs"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":836.5,"endTime":840.98,"body":"across the tech sector here too is we're"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":836.5,"endTime":840.98,"body":"also now treating engineers as someone"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":840.98,"endTime":843.15,"body":"who likely has a co pilot in hand."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":843.15,"endTime":846.82,"body":"And I mean that very explicitly like,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":843.15,"endTime":846.82,"body":"you know a github co pilot or an AI"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":846.82,"endTime":850.22,"body":"enabled tool and so now you have this"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":846.82,"endTime":850.22,"body":"other layer of how are we collaborating"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":850.23,"endTime":854.12,"body":"with these machine enabled tools"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":850.23,"endTime":854.12,"body":"that are becoming much more powerful"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":854.12,"endTime":857.38,"body":"and Helping drive a lot of our tech."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":857.39,"endTime":860.08,"body":"And so, you know, there's a few examples"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":857.39,"endTime":860.08,"body":"of layoffs that have already happened"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":860.08,"endTime":865.36,"body":"in 2024, from Discord to Google,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":860.08,"endTime":865.36,"body":"Amazon Prime Video, X, Twitch, Audible,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":865.81,"endTime":868.24,"body":"YouTube, InVision, Xerox, Duolingo."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":868.26,"endTime":869.08,"body":"I could go on."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":869.436,"endTime":873.86,"body":"Do the two of you think that either"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":869.436,"endTime":873.86,"body":"this change in how companies are"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":873.86,"endTime":876.55,"body":"constructed or the impact of AI or"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":876.975,"endTime":881.025,"body":"both, are helping drive these layoffs,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":876.975,"endTime":881.025,"body":"or is it something that's more cyclical?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":881.237,"endTime":882.937,"body":"I mean, we're still"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":881.237,"endTime":882.937,"body":"dealing with the capital markets."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":882.957,"endTime":888.027,"body":"I think  we're looking for any excuse to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":882.957,"endTime":888.027,"body":"explain why there are so many layoffs."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":888.257,"endTime":891.517,"body":"As we're actively fundraising,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":888.257,"endTime":891.517,"body":"we're watching what's happening"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":891.517,"endTime":892.667,"body":"in the markets right now."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":892.987,"endTime":895.817,"body":"You know, we're seeing that"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":892.987,"endTime":895.817,"body":"companies are still struggling."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":896.247,"endTime":900.697,"body":"And we know we can use the excuse"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":896.247,"endTime":900.697,"body":"that, well, we're going to replace"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":901.037,"endTime":904.377,"body":"X number of people with AI,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":901.037,"endTime":904.377,"body":"which is going to leverage AI."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":904.377,"endTime":907.227,"body":"And so it's going to speed things"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":904.377,"endTime":907.227,"body":"up and we're going to be a much more"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":907.227,"endTime":908.447,"body":"efficient company with fewer people."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":908.767,"endTime":909.377,"body":"Is that true?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":909.427,"endTime":912.747,"body":"I mean, it could very well be true,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":909.427,"endTime":912.747,"body":"but a lot of the AI tooling we're using"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":912.747,"endTime":916.717,"body":"is still very much in its infancy,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":912.747,"endTime":916.717,"body":"and so we have a lot of people who"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":916.717,"endTime":920.147,"body":"are having to also stay up to date"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":916.717,"endTime":920.147,"body":"with this tooling that's changing."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":920.537,"endTime":924.992,"body":"And I think it's a mistake to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":920.537,"endTime":924.992,"body":"believe that AI is directly"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":925.022,"endTime":926.642,"body":"driving all of these layoffs?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":926.852,"endTime":929.342,"body":"I've seen companies say they're"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":926.852,"endTime":929.342,"body":"replacing their support team with it"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":929.342,"endTime":933.652,"body":"as an AI bot, which is a decision,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":929.342,"endTime":933.652,"body":"uh, that I'm not going to get into,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":933.806,"endTime":938.126,"body":"when it comes to engineering in"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":933.806,"endTime":938.126,"body":"particular, I don't see AI being the"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":938.131,"endTime":940.226,"body":"driver for causing these layoffs."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":940.725,"endTime":942.705,"body":"I 100 percent agree with Kelly."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":943.235,"endTime":948.215,"body":"I'm talking to lots of companies"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":943.235,"endTime":948.215,"body":"that are experimenting with"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":948.375,"endTime":950.865,"body":"Gen AI in software engineering."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":951.455,"endTime":957.405,"body":"I'm also in contact with lots of companies"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":951.455,"endTime":957.405,"body":"that unfortunately are having to do like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":957.575,"endTime":959.605,"body":"riffs, you know, like reduction in force."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":960.435,"endTime":966.705,"body":"None of them are saying it's because AI"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":960.435,"endTime":966.705,"body":"is taking over  a software engineer's job."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":966.785,"endTime":970.095,"body":"I won't, I can't speak to like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":966.785,"endTime":970.095,"body":"the support, you know, like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":970.095,"endTime":971.345,"body":"the chat bot and all of that."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":971.345,"endTime":972.505,"body":"I think that's something separate."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":972.515,"endTime":975.195,"body":"None of them are taking"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":972.515,"endTime":975.195,"body":"software engineers jobs."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":975.975,"endTime":980.725,"body":"And a ton of companies are investing"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":975.975,"endTime":980.725,"body":"significant money into things"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":980.725,"endTime":983.275,"body":"like Copilot as an experiment."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":983.975,"endTime":989.215,"body":"And the biggest thing that they're at"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":983.975,"endTime":989.215,"body":"least asking me is saying, I'm trying to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":989.275,"endTime":993.745,"body":"understand if this, because it takes like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":989.275,"endTime":993.745,"body":"million, like big companies, it's like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":993.755,"endTime":995.515,"body":"millions of dollars that you're investing."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":995.515,"endTime":1003.805,"body":"They're trying to say, is this, let's say"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":995.515,"endTime":1003.805,"body":"like a 5 million investment into Copilot,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1004.355,"endTime":1011.155,"body":"making my engineering workforce more"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1004.355,"endTime":1011.155,"body":"effective or not and that's the question"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1011.155,"endTime":1013.485,"body":"that they're they're trying to answer"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1014.081,"endTime":1017.361,"body":"But no like directly to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1014.081,"endTime":1017.361,"body":"your question Connor."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1017.361,"endTime":1019.241,"body":"I don't think it's like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1017.361,"endTime":1019.241,"body":"a replacement thing."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1019.241,"endTime":1021.541,"body":"I haven't seen anything like that today."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1022.251,"endTime":1025.401,"body":"I also firmly believe"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1022.251,"endTime":1025.401,"body":"that  I think it's great that we're"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1025.401,"endTime":1027.391,"body":"experimenting with GenAI in the workplace."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1027.431,"endTime":1030.971,"body":"Especially for those who are, you"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1027.431,"endTime":1030.971,"body":"know, needing to write more tests."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1031.241,"endTime":1033.691,"body":"That's one of the biggest"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1031.241,"endTime":1033.691,"body":"reasons I see people use GenAI."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1033.961,"endTime":1037.251,"body":"I've used it for writing SQL queries"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1033.961,"endTime":1037.251,"body":"again and again, but I still call,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1037.321,"endTime":1040.261,"body":"you know, Copilot, my friendly"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1037.321,"endTime":1040.261,"body":"junior engineer who's helping me."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1040.611,"endTime":1045.301,"body":"Because it's not necessarily the greatest"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1040.611,"endTime":1045.301,"body":"code ever written, and often doesn't"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1045.321,"endTime":1049.121,"body":"actually work on the first try, unless"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1045.321,"endTime":1049.121,"body":"it's something very, very simple."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1049.561,"endTime":1051.431,"body":"You know what I was"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1049.561,"endTime":1051.431,"body":"thinking about, Conor, when you were"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1051.431,"endTime":1055.031,"body":"like, posed this question, actually,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1051.431,"endTime":1055.031,"body":"which is a new, new thing for me."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1055.081,"endTime":1058.511,"body":"You know, like, with LinearB,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1055.081,"endTime":1058.511,"body":"we're measuring the effectiveness"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1058.511,"endTime":1061.771,"body":"of GenAI, we're doing all that"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1058.511,"endTime":1061.771,"body":"kind of stuff, but actually"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1061.771,"endTime":1063.108,"body":"something different came up for me."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1063.858,"endTime":1067.953,"body":"If I was a developer right now,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1063.858,"endTime":1067.953,"body":"and Kelly, I think you're closer"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1067.953,"endTime":1070.523,"body":"to that, because you said, oh, it's"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1067.953,"endTime":1070.523,"body":"like my junior engineering buddy."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1070.877,"endTime":1078.497,"body":"I would think like career wise, I would"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1070.877,"endTime":1078.497,"body":"say to myself, how could I use Copilot"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1078.507,"endTime":1081.397,"body":"to be the most effective engineer."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1081.502,"endTime":1086.752,"body":"I think the developers that understand"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1081.502,"endTime":1086.752,"body":"when to use it, when not to use it, what"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1086.752,"endTime":1089.012,"body":"to use it on, what will like succeed."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1089.022,"endTime":1089.832,"body":"Do you see what I'm saying?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1089.832,"endTime":1091.132,"body":"I think there's an art there."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1091.302,"endTime":1095.772,"body":"Who's gonna take advantage of it and"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1091.302,"endTime":1095.772,"body":"use it in the right way, and who's not?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1096.054,"endTime":1097.287,"body":"Yeah, it's writing prompts."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1097.317,"endTime":1100.777,"body":"That is becoming a skill, you know,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1097.317,"endTime":1100.777,"body":"you, we used to say that the best"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1100.777,"endTime":1102.397,"body":"senior engineers know how to Google."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1102.727,"endTime":1104.307,"body":"They know how to ask the right questions."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1104.787,"endTime":1107.057,"body":"It's going to be very much the"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1104.787,"endTime":1107.057,"body":"same with writing prompts as well."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1107.321,"endTime":1109.651,"body":"You can think of it"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1107.321,"endTime":1109.651,"body":"even like our parents generation."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1109.651,"endTime":1111.261,"body":"It's like the most basic example."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1111.261,"endTime":1116.521,"body":"Like, who can use Google and the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1111.261,"endTime":1116.521,"body":"internet to get information faster?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1117.056,"endTime":1121.166,"body":"And you could see, like, there"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1117.056,"endTime":1121.166,"body":"was, uh, in that workforces, it was"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1121.476,"endTime":1125.216,"body":"generation, like, so I'm talking, like,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1121.476,"endTime":1125.216,"body":"I don't know, now, like, 30, 20, 30"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1125.226,"endTime":1128.336,"body":"years ago, you could see the people"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1125.226,"endTime":1128.336,"body":"who, like, adopted it and didn't."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1128.906,"endTime":1129.206,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1129.596,"endTime":1131.136,"body":"I, I think of it, like, similar."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1131.146,"endTime":1135.236,"body":"Who can use, like, AI coding to their"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1131.146,"endTime":1135.236,"body":"advantage and is, like, on top of"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1135.236,"endTime":1139.006,"body":"it, know when to use it, prompts,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1135.236,"endTime":1139.006,"body":"all of that, and who's gonna say,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1139.006,"endTime":1141.801,"body":"like, Oh, I'm like a senior engineer."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1141.801,"endTime":1143.401,"body":"I don't need, I'm a principal engineer."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1143.401,"endTime":1144.161,"body":"I don't need this."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1144.161,"endTime":1146.031,"body":"Well, that's like not"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1144.161,"endTime":1146.031,"body":"keeping up with the times."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1146.441,"endTime":1146.551,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1146.551,"endTime":1149.281,"body":"Back in my day, we didn't, we"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1146.551,"endTime":1149.281,"body":"coded everything by hand ourselves."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1149.281,"endTime":1149.601,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1149.631,"endTime":1153.201,"body":"Like I, you think of it as like,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1149.631,"endTime":1153.201,"body":"and then you'll get left behind."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1153.801,"endTime":1154.371,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1154.421,"endTime":1156.581,"body":"It's a skill you should, you'd"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1154.421,"endTime":1156.581,"body":"need to be leveraging for sure."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1156.968,"endTime":1159.558,"body":"Is it on the individual"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1156.968,"endTime":1159.558,"body":"though, or what should leaders be"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1159.558,"endTime":1164.658,"body":"doing to either encourage or maybe"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1159.558,"endTime":1164.658,"body":"mandate this use of these Gen AI"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1164.668,"endTime":1166.418,"body":"tools to hopefully improve efficiency?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1167.163,"endTime":1169.843,"body":"I think it's important"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1167.163,"endTime":1169.843,"body":"to understand when, as you said, when"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1169.843,"endTime":1173.433,"body":"is the right time to use the tool"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1169.843,"endTime":1173.433,"body":"and how can you support your team to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1173.453,"endTime":1175.173,"body":"introduce it in a safe environment."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1175.433,"endTime":1179.033,"body":"And what I mean by that is there"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1175.433,"endTime":1179.033,"body":"are certain things you shouldn't be"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1179.093,"endTime":1183.713,"body":"dumping into any sort of generative"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1179.093,"endTime":1183.713,"body":"AI prompt, you know, like secret"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1183.713,"endTime":1186.283,"body":"keys, environment variables, et"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1183.713,"endTime":1186.283,"body":"cetera, those types of things."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1186.563,"endTime":1189.93,"body":"But I think, you know, as a leader,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1186.563,"endTime":1189.93,"body":"talking to your team about how they can"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1189.93,"endTime":1192.37,"body":"leverage it and how they're interested"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1189.93,"endTime":1192.37,"body":"in leveraging it is going to be something"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1192.37,"endTime":1193.68,"body":"that'll be really helpful for them."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1194.138,"endTime":1198.608,"body":"So if you're like in a VP"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1194.138,"endTime":1198.608,"body":"or like a CTO role, you also need to be"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1198.608,"endTime":1200.788,"body":"communicating with your business about it."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1201.448,"endTime":1202.778,"body":"And what does that mean again?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1203.398,"endTime":1204.598,"body":"It costs a lot of money."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1204.598,"endTime":1206.878,"body":"So you're running this"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1204.598,"endTime":1206.878,"body":"expensive experiment."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1207.258,"endTime":1214.008,"body":"What you owe back to the business is is it"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1207.258,"endTime":1214.008,"body":"helping us deliver more projects on time?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1214.078,"endTime":1214.738,"body":"Yes, or no."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1215.898,"endTime":1220.068,"body":"Is it improving or decreasing our quality?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1220.738,"endTime":1220.938,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1221.528,"endTime":1227.078,"body":"And is it allowing our engineers,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1221.528,"endTime":1227.078,"body":"which we do pay I think, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1227.078,"endTime":1230.448,"body":"good salary too compared to, you"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1227.078,"endTime":1230.448,"body":"know, other jobs in the world."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1230.508,"endTime":1232.698,"body":"Is it making them more or less effective?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1233.188,"endTime":1237.138,"body":"That's what I think you owe as"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1233.188,"endTime":1237.138,"body":"like a VP or a CTO to the business."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1237.748,"endTime":1242.503,"body":"And then you can have that good"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1237.748,"endTime":1242.503,"body":"conversation of, we should invest more"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1242.503,"endTime":1246.343,"body":"or less into it and hopefully it's more,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1242.503,"endTime":1246.343,"body":"but you got to back it up That's what"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1246.433,"endTime":1248.363,"body":"that's what I see from like the top top."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1248.693,"endTime":1249.483,"body":"Completely agree."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1249.553,"endTime":1249.783,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1249.833,"endTime":1254.183,"body":"Yeah Also worth noting if you're going to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1249.833,"endTime":1254.183,"body":"be starting to use generative AI or any"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1254.233,"endTime":1258.413,"body":"copile or anything in your in your work"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1254.233,"endTime":1258.413,"body":"environment, you should probably have a"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1258.413,"endTime":1263.673,"body":"policy around using any sort of generative"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1258.413,"endTime":1263.673,"body":"AI which I mean you could technically"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1263.673,"endTime":1267.133,"body":"use you know chat GPT to generate that"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1263.673,"endTime":1267.133,"body":"policy for you if you really wanted to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1267.163,"endTime":1270.328,"body":"but, not saying I know somebody who did"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1270.328,"endTime":1270.743,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1271.523,"endTime":1272.843,"body":"I love that"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1271.523,"endTime":1272.843,"body":"you brought that up."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1272.863,"endTime":1278.893,"body":"Cause I was like, the next thing on my"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1272.863,"endTime":1278.893,"body":"mind now is not all code is created equal."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1278.893,"endTime":1279.743,"body":"What does it mean?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1280.093,"endTime":1281.263,"body":"Hopefully it doesn't sound negative."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1281.273,"endTime":1283.733,"body":"There's some code that's"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1281.273,"endTime":1283.733,"body":"more or less sensitive."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1283.893,"endTime":1284.313,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1284.823,"endTime":1285.683,"body":"There's some, right."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1285.693,"endTime":1289.373,"body":"So it's like not every"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1285.693,"endTime":1289.373,"body":"pull request is the same."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1290.243,"endTime":1292.453,"body":"Now it's interesting because it's like."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1293.303,"endTime":1296.573,"body":"Not every piece of code is human created."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1297.673,"endTime":1301.743,"body":"So now when you think about a policy,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1297.673,"endTime":1301.743,"body":"especially if you're in like a regulated"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1301.743,"endTime":1303.633,"body":"industry or like a huge enterprise."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1303.693,"endTime":1309.053,"body":"You may want to write some rules"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1303.693,"endTime":1309.053,"body":"that says this is how we treat gen AI"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1309.053,"endTime":1311.863,"body":"driven code versus human driven code."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1312.518,"endTime":1316.558,"body":"And then you ask yourself, okay,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1312.518,"endTime":1316.558,"body":"do I have the tools and process"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1316.578,"endTime":1319.442,"body":"in place to implement that policy?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1319.817,"endTime":1323.087,"body":"Yeah, and I'm curious"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1319.817,"endTime":1323.087,"body":"from a, like, a legal perspective,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1323.087,"endTime":1326.967,"body":"and obviously I am not a lawyer, but"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1323.087,"endTime":1326.967,"body":"I'm curious, when you have something"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1326.967,"endTime":1330.86,"body":"that you have patented, for example,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1326.967,"endTime":1330.86,"body":"but part of it was written with"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1330.92,"endTime":1334.83,"body":"generative AI code, who owns that code?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1334.86,"endTime":1337.24,"body":"Who owns that unique combination"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1334.86,"endTime":1337.24,"body":"of code at this point?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1337.877,"endTime":1339.477,"body":"That legal battle"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1337.877,"endTime":1339.477,"body":"is going to be really interesting."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1339.477,"endTime":1343.977,"body":"I mean, we've seen the New York Times"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1339.477,"endTime":1343.977,"body":"now suing AI models, particularly"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1343.977,"endTime":1348.617,"body":"OpenAI, up around use of it, their"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1343.977,"endTime":1348.617,"body":"content in the model training."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1348.617,"endTime":1351.307,"body":"I think there's so much more depth"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1348.617,"endTime":1351.307,"body":"that we're going to see around"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1351.587,"endTime":1355.227,"body":"who owns what part, do people get"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1351.587,"endTime":1355.227,"body":"percentages off it, how's that kind"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1355.227,"endTime":1357.207,"body":"of attribution piece going to work."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1357.682,"endTime":1360.692,"body":"And I made a couple of interesting"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1357.682,"endTime":1360.692,"body":"things that, that both of you brought"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1360.692,"endTime":1364.762,"body":"up, one, tracking the effectiveness"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1360.692,"endTime":1364.762,"body":"of your gen AI initiative."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1364.762,"endTime":1367.702,"body":"Dan, I know you're looking at PR"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1364.762,"endTime":1367.702,"body":"labeling and LinearB starting to"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1367.702,"endTime":1371.132,"body":"leverage that so that engineering"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1367.702,"endTime":1371.132,"body":"execs can actually see, hey, you know,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1371.132,"endTime":1375.402,"body":"this was a PR that was generated with"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1371.132,"endTime":1375.402,"body":"AI assistance or fully AI built in."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1375.642,"endTime":1378.362,"body":"And so really interested to dive into that"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1375.642,"endTime":1378.362,"body":"data as we start to have that come in."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1378.752,"endTime":1381.622,"body":"And the other piece that I'll mention"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1378.752,"endTime":1381.622,"body":"is is the compliance piece, Kelly."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1381.862,"endTime":1384.837,"body":"So I know this is a top"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1381.862,"endTime":1384.837,"body":"concern for leaders."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1384.857,"endTime":1387.827,"body":"And the reason we know this is we"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1384.857,"endTime":1387.827,"body":"just got our preview data back from"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1387.827,"endTime":1392.267,"body":"a survey we ran with 156 different"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1387.827,"endTime":1392.267,"body":"engineering leaders who are starting"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1392.267,"endTime":1394.157,"body":"to live for leverage JNI code."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1394.157,"endTime":1398.407,"body":"And the vast majority of them, that"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1394.157,"endTime":1398.407,"body":"was their number one concern is, you"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1398.407,"endTime":1399.747,"body":"know, what's my regulatory risk here?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1399.747,"endTime":1400.767,"body":"What's my compliance risk?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1400.777,"endTime":1402.347,"body":"You know, is there a legal concern?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1402.347,"endTime":1405.967,"body":"So I think there's definitely a"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1402.347,"endTime":1405.967,"body":"need as you're both kind of pointing"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1405.967,"endTime":1408.837,"body":"out to say, let's actually track"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1405.967,"endTime":1408.837,"body":"the effectiveness here, let's track"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1409.222,"endTime":1411.542,"body":"how broad is this risk sprawling for us?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1411.862,"endTime":1415.272,"body":"And companies that fail to do"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1411.862,"endTime":1415.272,"body":"that are potentially at risk."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1415.302,"endTime":1416.132,"body":"We'll see how it goes."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1416.202,"endTime":1416.532,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1416.792,"endTime":1419.802,"body":"We were talking about things you need"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1416.792,"endTime":1419.802,"body":"to leverage as an, as an engineer."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1420.032,"endTime":1424.052,"body":"There's a whole new, uh, section or"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1420.032,"endTime":1424.052,"body":"like whole new sector for attorneys to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1424.052,"endTime":1427.848,"body":"focus on now, which is like leveraging"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1424.052,"endTime":1427.848,"body":"AI and the legal battles around it."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1427.898,"endTime":1429.028,"body":"So that's going to be interesting to see."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1429.698,"endTime":1433.588,"body":"I mean, I can't talk about"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1429.698,"endTime":1433.588,"body":"AI without saying something, some, like,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1433.588,"endTime":1435.978,"body":"sci fi trippy thing, so I'll say it."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1436.018,"endTime":1442.348,"body":"It will be the funniest situation"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1436.018,"endTime":1442.348,"body":"where, in court, the AI bot shows"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1442.358,"endTime":1444.268,"body":"up and says, I own this code."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1444.968,"endTime":1446.068,"body":"I own this IP."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1446.558,"endTime":1448.398,"body":"It's not OpenAI that owns it."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1448.398,"endTime":1449.708,"body":"It's also not the company."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1449.708,"endTime":1451.488,"body":"It's like, I wrote it."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1452.078,"endTime":1454.728,"body":"Alright, so this is our"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1452.078,"endTime":1454.728,"body":"first book reference, I think, of this."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1454.808,"endTime":1457.428,"body":"If you haven't read Foundation,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1454.808,"endTime":1457.428,"body":"Isaac Asimov's, like,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1457.588,"endTime":1460.038,"body":"incredible OG sci fi novels."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1460.218,"endTime":1461.318,"body":"Great time to do it."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1461.318,"endTime":1464.108,"body":"You're going to see some parallels"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1461.318,"endTime":1464.108,"body":"to the future we're going on."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1464.388,"endTime":1468.523,"body":"Another interesting aspect of this is,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1464.388,"endTime":1468.523,"body":"you know, Kelly, you mentioned you're"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1468.523,"endTime":1470.343,"body":"treating AI as like your junior engineer."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1470.403,"endTime":1473.413,"body":"Dan, I think you brought up this"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1470.403,"endTime":1473.413,"body":"point earlier about the value of co"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1473.413,"endTime":1476.363,"body":"location for improving code quality."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1476.443,"endTime":1480.623,"body":"So something we actually saw in the study"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1476.443,"endTime":1480.623,"body":"on engineering benchmarks that LinearB did"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1480.623,"endTime":1484.783,"body":"last year, and we'll be repeating every"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1480.623,"endTime":1484.783,"body":"year, uh, we saw that co located teams"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1485.088,"endTime":1489.978,"body":"had more collaboration on pull requests,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1485.088,"endTime":1489.978,"body":"had more code review happening, and that"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1489.988,"endTime":1492.568,"body":"drove a correlating higher code quality."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1492.948,"endTime":1497.438,"body":"So there was this positive correlation"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1492.948,"endTime":1497.438,"body":"between merge frequency, code quality, and"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1497.438,"endTime":1499.278,"body":"percentage of overlapping working hours."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1499.478,"endTime":1502.308,"body":"Which is a really interesting thing to"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1499.478,"endTime":1502.308,"body":"consider as we also look back at that"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1502.318,"endTime":1505.338,"body":"discussion we had about, you know, where"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1502.318,"endTime":1505.338,"body":"are you locating your engineering teams?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1505.408,"endTime":1506.468,"body":"How are they working together?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1506.898,"endTime":1512.508,"body":"And I think this, this active workday"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1506.898,"endTime":1512.508,"body":"for the team's contributors where they"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1512.508,"endTime":1516.298,"body":"can have this collaboration, and now"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1512.508,"endTime":1516.298,"body":"the collaboration with AI is going to"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1516.308,"endTime":1521.158,"body":"be fascinating to understand because"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1516.308,"endTime":1521.158,"body":"there are just so many extra factors"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1521.158,"endTime":1523.638,"body":"that we're adding in as we start"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1521.158,"endTime":1523.638,"body":"leveraging more and more bots here."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1524.162,"endTime":1528.308,"body":"Dan, do you want to speak to how"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1524.162,"endTime":1528.308,"body":"you're thinking about tracking the"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1528.308,"endTime":1529.648,"body":"impact of Gen AI a little bit here?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1529.658,"endTime":1531.868,"body":"Because I'd be curious to have"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1529.658,"endTime":1531.868,"body":"you expand on that and maybe"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1531.868,"endTime":1532.738,"body":"get Kelly's thoughts on it."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1532.935,"endTime":1533.475,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1533.588,"endTime":1536.738,"body":"What we're doing today,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1533.588,"endTime":1536.738,"body":"it's more of a comparison."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1536.838,"endTime":1544.508,"body":"So what we're saying is, let's"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1536.838,"endTime":1544.508,"body":"identify, classify, label all PRs"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1544.588,"endTime":1551.978,"body":"or code changes that include Gen"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1544.588,"endTime":1551.978,"body":"AI created code and do a comparison"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1551.988,"endTime":1554.808,"body":"versus code changes that do not."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1555.328,"endTime":1558.208,"body":"Because what a lot of companies,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1555.328,"endTime":1558.208,"body":"especially the bigger ones, are doing"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1558.208,"endTime":1563.158,"body":"right now is they're rolling out"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1558.208,"endTime":1563.158,"body":"Copilot or an equivalent to some part"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1563.168,"endTime":1567.328,"body":"of the engineering organization and"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1563.168,"endTime":1567.328,"body":"not the whole, not like another one."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1567.608,"endTime":1572.808,"body":"So once we have that comparison or we"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1567.608,"endTime":1572.808,"body":"have that label, now we're looking at"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1572.808,"endTime":1580.658,"body":"data and we're looking at things like bugs"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1572.808,"endTime":1580.658,"body":"created, incidents in production, review"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1580.658,"endTime":1585.858,"body":"times, does it take longer or less to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1580.658,"endTime":1585.858,"body":"review, and we're seeing the differences."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1586.245,"endTime":1589.66,"body":"And I actually think Conor, we have"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1586.245,"endTime":1589.66,"body":"a webinar coming up on this soon."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1590.12,"endTime":1592.99,"body":"I think it will have"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1590.12,"endTime":1592.99,"body":"happened by the time this, this publishes,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1593.02,"endTime":1595.82,"body":"but we'll definitely link to that in"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1593.02,"endTime":1595.82,"body":"the show notes because I think there's"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1595.82,"endTime":1598.97,"body":"a lot of exciting stuff that could be"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1595.82,"endTime":1598.97,"body":"happening here in the next few weeks."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1599.26,"endTime":1602.88,"body":"So anyways, Kelly, it's done on"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1599.26,"endTime":1602.88,"body":"like a comparison basis with or without,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1602.91,"endTime":1607.983,"body":"and then see the impacts on efficiency,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1602.91,"endTime":1607.983,"body":"quality, speed, that type of thing."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1608.473,"endTime":1609.443,"body":"Is it self reported?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1609.715,"endTime":1615.615,"body":"The initial launch of"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1609.715,"endTime":1615.615,"body":"it will be self reported unless"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1615.635,"endTime":1619.675,"body":"that you're working with a company"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1615.635,"endTime":1619.675,"body":"that we have an integration with,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1620.235,"endTime":1622.425,"body":"and then it will be auto generated."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1622.525,"endTime":1625.805,"body":"So like we're in the co"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1622.525,"endTime":1625.805,"body":"pilot partnership program."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1625.805,"endTime":1629.845,"body":"There's other competing companies"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1625.805,"endTime":1629.845,"body":"like Tab9 and they're opening up the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1629.845,"endTime":1632.599,"body":"AI, Information to us through API."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1633.229,"endTime":1634.269,"body":"That's super interesting."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1634.319,"endTime":1640.329,"body":"I am curious to see the long term validity"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1634.319,"endTime":1640.329,"body":"of the results because as you know, you"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1640.329,"endTime":1644.359,"body":"might use generative AI to, let's say,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1640.329,"endTime":1644.359,"body":"create a function, but you're going to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1644.369,"endTime":1646.419,"body":"go in and make a bunch of changes to it."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1646.829,"endTime":1652.969,"body":"And so it'll be kind of a little blur of"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1646.829,"endTime":1652.969,"body":"who generated what code, and how does that"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1652.969,"endTime":1657.939,"body":"actually divvy up to where a, perhaps a"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1652.969,"endTime":1657.939,"body":"regression was introduced in production."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1658.443,"endTime":1660.433,"body":"Yeah, yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1658.443,"endTime":1660.433,"body":"totally, I totally agree."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1660.433,"endTime":1664.543,"body":"You said you were kind of using"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1660.433,"endTime":1664.543,"body":"it for, did you say like a writing"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1664.543,"endTime":1665.593,"body":"tests and that type of thing?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1665.983,"endTime":1669.143,"body":"I've heard plenty of, uh,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1665.983,"endTime":1669.143,"body":"of people who do use it for writing tests."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1669.173,"endTime":1671.273,"body":"I personally am not writing code at Spot."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1671.273,"endTime":1673.623,"body":"And so most of mine is"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1671.273,"endTime":1673.623,"body":"just writing SQL queries."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1673.924,"endTime":1677.914,"body":"The other thing that we see"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1673.924,"endTime":1677.914,"body":"is, depending on the leader of your"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1677.924,"endTime":1683.614,"body":"engineering organization, there's kind"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1677.924,"endTime":1683.614,"body":"of a thesis around why to use GenAI."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1683.624,"endTime":1689.884,"body":"So, for example, I do see some engineering"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1683.624,"endTime":1689.884,"body":"organizations saying, we think we can"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1689.924,"endTime":1696.598,"body":"increase our test coverage in these"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1689.924,"endTime":1696.598,"body":"teams because, GenAI code can like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1696.598,"endTime":1698.228,"body":"help, you know, write them faster."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1698.508,"endTime":1698.698,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1698.708,"endTime":1699.248,"body":"Cool."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1699.558,"endTime":1704.428,"body":"So what we're doing there is saying"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1699.558,"endTime":1704.428,"body":"that's your thesis for this team."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1704.768,"endTime":1709.108,"body":"Over the last three months has"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1704.768,"endTime":1709.108,"body":"the code coverage increase at a"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1709.108,"endTime":1711.138,"body":"greater rate compared to before?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1711.558,"endTime":1714.183,"body":"So I think the other thing"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1711.558,"endTime":1714.183,"body":"about it is like, what is your"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1714.183,"endTime":1716.613,"body":"expected output after you use it?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1716.703,"endTime":1717.923,"body":"Is it to move faster?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1717.923,"endTime":1718.753,"body":"Is it quality?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1718.753,"endTime":1720.843,"body":"Is it to deliver projects on time?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1720.843,"endTime":1722.763,"body":"So I think that's like the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1720.843,"endTime":1722.763,"body":"other piece to the puzzle."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1723.753,"endTime":1724.263,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1724.433,"endTime":1727.293,"body":"There's so much that goes on in"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1724.433,"endTime":1727.293,"body":"engineering work as far as, you know,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1727.313,"endTime":1728.923,"body":"collaborating with others and, and,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1729.208,"endTime":1732.648,"body":"what you're actually working on in third"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1729.208,"endTime":1732.648,"body":"party circumstances that might come"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1732.648,"endTime":1737.008,"body":"into,  let's say that's your hypothesis"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1732.648,"endTime":1737.008,"body":"is that, you know, if we use general,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1737.068,"endTime":1742.988,"body":"generative AI, we will increase our test"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1737.068,"endTime":1742.988,"body":"coverage, but if there's also a, uh, a"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1742.988,"endTime":1747.298,"body":"real, a push within the organization,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1742.988,"endTime":1747.298,"body":"just generally increase test converage,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1747.588,"endTime":1751.678,"body":"there are a lot of factors at play here"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1747.588,"endTime":1751.678,"body":"that can muddy the results a little bit,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1751.828,"endTime":1754.048,"body":"but that does not negate the results."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1754.138,"endTime":1756.428,"body":"It's just something to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1754.138,"endTime":1756.428,"body":"take into consideration."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1756.743,"endTime":1760.273,"body":"So this brings"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1756.743,"endTime":1760.273,"body":"up an interesting corollary here."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1760.323,"endTime":1763.843,"body":"So we, we've talked a lot on"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1760.323,"endTime":1763.843,"body":"this show about the need to"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1763.853,"endTime":1766.063,"body":"drive visibility, automate."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1766.253,"endTime":1769.263,"body":"And then, you know, understand"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1766.253,"endTime":1769.263,"body":"Improvement, drive improvement."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1769.773,"endTime":1773.003,"body":"And I think what's happening here is a"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1769.773,"endTime":1773.003,"body":"lot of folks are actually jumping right"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1773.003,"endTime":1775.613,"body":"into that automation step and saying,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1773.003,"endTime":1775.613,"body":"Hey, we want to automate and improve,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1775.713,"endTime":1778.313,"body":"and now we're trying to go back and"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1775.713,"endTime":1778.313,"body":"say, Okay, we want to get visibility"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1778.313,"endTime":1779.573,"body":"into what's actually happening."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1780.133,"endTime":1782.663,"body":"And I saw a LinkedIn post from"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1780.133,"endTime":1782.663,"body":"another engineering leader with"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1782.663,"endTime":1783.843,"body":"an interesting opinion on this."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1784.233,"endTime":1787.973,"body":"Um, and they, they said that the easier"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1784.233,"endTime":1787.973,"body":"it is for you to create a dashboard like"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1787.973,"endTime":1792.333,"body":"Dora, the less helpful those metrics"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1787.973,"endTime":1792.333,"body":"actually will be to your organization."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1792.703,"endTime":1797.713,"body":"And that instead of being able to"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1792.703,"endTime":1797.713,"body":"draw this like clear line from a"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1797.743,"endTime":1800.833,"body":"commit all the way to the code being"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1797.743,"endTime":1800.833,"body":"used in front of users in production."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1801.163,"endTime":1802.863,"body":"Because it's all automated and logged."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1803.203,"endTime":1805.053,"body":"That probably means you're actually"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1803.203,"endTime":1805.053,"body":"pretty good at your software"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1805.053,"endTime":1808.243,"body":"delivery capabilities, and maybe your"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1805.053,"endTime":1808.243,"body":"challenges are elsewhere on your team."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1808.693,"endTime":1811.433,"body":"I'm curious, what's your take on that"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1808.693,"endTime":1811.433,"body":"perspective, given how much we're all"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1811.433,"endTime":1812.753,"body":"diving into automation these days?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1813.04,"endTime":1817.08,"body":"When I saw that, Conor, in the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1813.04,"endTime":1817.08,"body":"show notes, I had to read it a few times."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1817.8,"endTime":1818.13,"body":"Same."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1818.13,"endTime":1820.17,"body":"I'm like, okay, what does that mean?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1820.47,"endTime":1824.74,"body":"If it's really easy for you"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1820.47,"endTime":1824.74,"body":"to measure your DORA metrics."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1824.98,"endTime":1829.18,"body":"So let's go, go back to why would"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1824.98,"endTime":1829.18,"body":"it be hard to measure DORA metrics?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1829.52,"endTime":1829.9,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1830.82,"endTime":1834.6,"body":"Let's look at change failure rate,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1830.82,"endTime":1834.6,"body":"something like that, which means in"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1834.61,"endTime":1836.95,"body":"order to measure change failure rate."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1837.095,"endTime":1840.595,"body":"You have to have a way to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1837.095,"endTime":1840.595,"body":"identify there was a failure."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1841.675,"endTime":1846.385,"body":"You have to have a way to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1841.675,"endTime":1846.385,"body":"understand that the severity of that"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1846.385,"endTime":1849.085,"body":"failure, is it like a P0 or a P1?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1849.482,"endTime":1852.662,"body":"And you have to have a way"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1849.482,"endTime":1852.662,"body":"to, let's say, link it back to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1852.662,"endTime":1854.222,"body":"the code that's been released."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1854.562,"endTime":1857.342,"body":"What does it take to measure cycle time?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1857.472,"endTime":1862.552,"body":"Well, you have to understand"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1857.472,"endTime":1862.552,"body":"when a pull request is opened."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1862.902,"endTime":1865.872,"body":"Is it in draft mode"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1862.902,"endTime":1865.872,"body":"versus like review mode?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1865.872,"endTime":1868.962,"body":"You have to know when the review"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1865.872,"endTime":1868.962,"body":"started, the review end, you have to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1868.962,"endTime":1870.302,"body":"know when the deployment happened."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1870.992,"endTime":1873.272,"body":"So what it actually, after I read it,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1873.502,"endTime":1878.672,"body":"over and over again, my takeaway was"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1873.502,"endTime":1878.672,"body":"if it's easy for you to measure your"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1878.672,"endTime":1884.222,"body":"Dora metrics, it doesn't necessarily"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1878.672,"endTime":1884.222,"body":"mean that you're fast or you're of high"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1884.222,"endTime":1886.032,"body":"quality or you don't have bottlenecks."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1886.032,"endTime":1891.132,"body":"What it means is you've worked on"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1886.032,"endTime":1891.132,"body":"your standards enough across your"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1891.142,"endTime":1896.662,"body":"engineering organization, that it's"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1891.142,"endTime":1896.662,"body":"easy to track things like an incident."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1896.772,"endTime":1901.762,"body":"Or when coding stops and ends, or"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1896.772,"endTime":1901.762,"body":"you probably have a lot of your teams"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1901.782,"endTime":1907.462,"body":"working in a similar style, as opposed"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1901.782,"endTime":1907.462,"body":"to, Oh, it's so hard to measure this."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1907.682,"endTime":1911.542,"body":"Well, it probably means you don't have"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1907.682,"endTime":1911.542,"body":"a lot of standardization in place."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1911.752,"endTime":1913.862,"body":"That was my takeaway"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1911.752,"endTime":1913.862,"body":"from reading that quote."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1914.622,"endTime":1915.142,"body":"I love that."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1915.717,"endTime":1917.564,"body":"I echo that sentiment."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1917.614,"endTime":1922.664,"body":"I think the more you are focused around"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1917.614,"endTime":1922.664,"body":"measurements, the more intentionally"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1922.664,"endTime":1925.674,"body":"you're going to be about how to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1922.664,"endTime":1925.674,"body":"approach measuring that, and in order"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1925.674,"endTime":1928.774,"body":"to measure that, you have to introduce"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1925.674,"endTime":1928.774,"body":"standards, you have to introduce"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1928.774,"endTime":1932.404,"body":"processes, which is by default going"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1928.774,"endTime":1932.404,"body":"to improve the way your team works."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1932.814,"endTime":1936.014,"body":"I mean, I think some devs"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1932.814,"endTime":1936.014,"body":"would push back on that standardization"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1936.014,"endTime":1941.594,"body":"piece, but that's a, that's a broad debate"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1936.014,"endTime":1941.594,"body":"for developers, who I think often try"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1941.604,"endTime":1946.814,"body":"to, go their own way, and I think this"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1941.604,"endTime":1946.814,"body":"is where we're seeing because automation"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1946.814,"endTime":1950.494,"body":"is becoming so much easier because Uh,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1946.814,"endTime":1950.494,"body":"standardization is becoming so much"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1950.494,"endTime":1952.574,"body":"easier with these digitally enabled tools,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1952.884,"endTime":1956.194,"body":"we're just moving in a direction"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1952.884,"endTime":1956.194,"body":"where we have these clear steps of"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1956.194,"endTime":1959.224,"body":"how a software development process can"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1956.194,"endTime":1959.224,"body":"work if you choose to go that route."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1959.654,"endTime":1963.224,"body":"So, let's say you're an organization"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1959.654,"endTime":1963.224,"body":"that wants to do that standardization."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1963.234,"endTime":1967.274,"body":"You're saying, hey, I I want to enable"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1963.234,"endTime":1967.274,"body":"my devs, but within this framework."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1967.284,"endTime":1968.644,"body":"I want to get visibility."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1968.644,"endTime":1972.064,"body":"I want to help them automate away"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1968.644,"endTime":1972.064,"body":"annoying tasks, which is what we're"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1972.064,"endTime":1976.154,"body":"seeing AI do a lot of, uh, in the Dora"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1972.064,"endTime":1976.154,"body":"research, for example, where developer"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1976.154,"endTime":1979.864,"body":"experience is improving, um, when AI"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1976.154,"endTime":1979.864,"body":"is enabled organization, cause they"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1979.864,"endTime":1982.404,"body":"can automate away tests and these other"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1979.864,"endTime":1982.404,"body":"tasks they don't really want to do."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1982.774,"endTime":1985.034,"body":"How should organizations start"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1982.774,"endTime":1985.034,"body":"that journey of standardization?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1985.397,"endTime":1986.327,"body":"Gotta collect data."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1986.377,"endTime":1988.867,"body":"You gotta have a really"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1986.377,"endTime":1988.867,"body":"clear understanding of the"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1988.867,"endTime":1989.887,"body":"problem statement first."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1990.232,"endTime":1992.982,"body":"And you have to understand also how this"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1990.232,"endTime":1992.982,"body":"is going to map back to the business."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1993.322,"endTime":1997.582,"body":"Because if you're going to be investing"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1993.322,"endTime":1997.582,"body":"any time, any resources into standardizing"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1997.602,"endTime":2001.302,"body":"anything, uh, you need to understand what"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1997.602,"endTime":2001.302,"body":"problem you're solving in the first place."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2001.922,"endTime":2004.972,"body":"And then, with that, you need to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2001.922,"endTime":2004.972,"body":"understand where the buy in is"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2004.972,"endTime":2008.742,"body":"going to be, where you're going to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2004.972,"endTime":2008.742,"body":"get pushback, and where you might"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2008.742,"endTime":2012.602,"body":"be introducing process for process"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2008.742,"endTime":2012.602,"body":"sake, and it could be detrimental,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2012.602,"endTime":2014.422,"body":"actually, to the developer experience."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2014.722,"endTime":2018.642,"body":"So, it's going to be a lot of push"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2014.722,"endTime":2018.642,"body":"and pull, it's going to be a lot of"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2018.852,"endTime":2022.622,"body":"open conversations, getting feedback"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2018.852,"endTime":2022.622,"body":"regularly, you have to be iterating"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2022.632,"endTime":2026.282,"body":"on it, it's not going to be a, here's"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2022.632,"endTime":2026.282,"body":"our problem, here's the solution."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2026.552,"endTime":2026.962,"body":"Done."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2027.022,"endTime":2027.692,"body":"We're good to go."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2027.692,"endTime":2031.082,"body":"It is something that's going to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2027.692,"endTime":2031.082,"body":"have to consistently be built upon."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2031.329,"endTime":2032.359,"body":"Dan, I see"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2031.329,"endTime":2032.359,"body":"you're nodding your head."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2032.359,"endTime":2033.339,"body":"Seems like that's spot on for you too."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2033.339,"endTime":2034.409,"body":"I think it's well said."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2034.459,"endTime":2036.489,"body":"I think it's just like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2034.459,"endTime":2036.489,"body":"an iterative process."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2036.529,"endTime":2039.909,"body":"Yeah, you gotta measure, you gotta"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2036.529,"endTime":2039.909,"body":"have the data, you gotta look at"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2039.909,"endTime":2041.829,"body":"the data, iterate on the policy."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2042.279,"endTime":2044.839,"body":"We talked about policy in"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2042.279,"endTime":2044.839,"body":"the beginning of the pod."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2044.869,"endTime":2049.409,"body":"Yeah, go unleash,  Copilot"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2044.869,"endTime":2049.409,"body":"on all of your engineers."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2050.384,"endTime":2055.854,"body":"But have something in place to understand"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2050.384,"endTime":2055.854,"body":"if the code is like Gen AI, maybe you"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2056.134,"endTime":2059.814,"body":"at first want to have, I don't know,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2056.134,"endTime":2059.814,"body":"multiple reviewers, or whatever you want"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2060.084,"endTime":2065.764,"body":"to do, just put like a few lanes in place"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2060.084,"endTime":2065.764,"body":"so everyone can drive fast together,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2065.804,"endTime":2068.824,"body":"instead of like crashing into each other,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2065.804,"endTime":2068.824,"body":"that's the way that I think about it."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2069.164,"endTime":2071.534,"body":"Yeah, it's important,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2069.164,"endTime":2071.534,"body":"you cannot boil the ocean."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2071.759,"endTime":2073.109,"body":"You cannot do everything all at once."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2073.109,"endTime":2074.819,"body":"So pick one or two things to start with."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2074.939,"endTime":2076.749,"body":"And that is why it's an"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2074.939,"endTime":2076.749,"body":"iterative approach as well."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2076.759,"endTime":2079.989,"body":"You're going to continue to build"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2076.759,"endTime":2079.989,"body":"upon those, the processes and"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2079.989,"endTime":2081.769,"body":"standards as you're building them."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2081.969,"endTime":2084.639,"body":"And so you, you have to keep on"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2081.969,"endTime":2084.639,"body":"revisiting what you're working on."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2084.965,"endTime":2087.685,"body":"Well, a crucial question"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2084.965,"endTime":2087.685,"body":"here then is, should I build that"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2087.685,"endTime":2089.415,"body":"visibility myself or should I buy it?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2089.485,"endTime":2093.925,"body":"And Kelly, I know you recently weighed"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2089.485,"endTime":2093.925,"body":"in on this in kind of great build versus"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2093.925,"endTime":2097.265,"body":"buy debate in your excellent Lessons"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2093.925,"endTime":2097.265,"body":"in Engineering Leadership newsletter."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2097.595,"endTime":2099.445,"body":"And to level set, I'll use"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2097.595,"endTime":2099.445,"body":"your own words from there."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2099.485,"endTime":2100.865,"body":"The question is straightforward."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2101.22,"endTime":2104.61,"body":"Do we build this software in house, or"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2101.22,"endTime":2104.61,"body":"do we use a third party software product?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2105.05,"endTime":2107.89,"body":"Kelly, how do you recommend engineering"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2105.05,"endTime":2107.89,"body":"leaders think about this and assess"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2107.89,"endTime":2111.44,"body":"when to build versus buy, particularly"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2107.89,"endTime":2111.44,"body":"when it's something so crucial as"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2111.45,"endTime":2114.18,"body":"getting the visibility into your"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2111.45,"endTime":2114.18,"body":"software development pipeline or maybe"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2114.18,"endTime":2115.54,"body":"your developer experience metrics?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2115.827,"endTime":2118.987,"body":"The way I tend to think"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2115.827,"endTime":2118.987,"body":"about this is, you know, first off, and"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2118.987,"endTime":2121.777,"body":"I, I write about this in the newsletter,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2118.987,"endTime":2121.777,"body":"understanding the needs and goals that"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2121.777,"endTime":2123.327,"body":"you're, you're trying to reach here."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2123.327,"endTime":2125.257,"body":"And we're talking about that"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2123.327,"endTime":2125.257,"body":"problem statement right now."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2125.497,"endTime":2130.117,"body":"How crucial is this to the core"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2125.497,"endTime":2130.117,"body":"inner workings of your organization."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2130.497,"endTime":2133.867,"body":"And then what is the technical"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2130.497,"endTime":2133.867,"body":"assessment of your team to be able"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2133.867,"endTime":2135.047,"body":"to implement something like this?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2135.337,"endTime":2138.967,"body":"Or who has the experience to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2135.337,"endTime":2138.967,"body":"actually build these processes now?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2139.452,"endTime":2143.342,"body":"And if that's a gap, then I would"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2139.452,"endTime":2143.342,"body":"absolutely consider looking at buying"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2143.342,"endTime":2144.892,"body":"a solution versus building something."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2145.242,"endTime":2148.302,"body":"You can always, and I talk about this"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2145.242,"endTime":2148.302,"body":"towards the end of it, you can always"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2148.312,"endTime":2152.162,"body":"start with buying a solution with the"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2148.312,"endTime":2152.162,"body":"intention of building something in house."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2152.192,"endTime":2153.362,"body":"We do this all the time."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2153.562,"endTime":2156.082,"body":"So long as you're not getting"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2153.562,"endTime":2156.082,"body":"yourself into the trap of, Oh,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2156.082,"endTime":2158.312,"body":"we'll build it at some point,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2156.082,"endTime":2158.312,"body":"and then you actually never do."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2158.722,"endTime":2162.472,"body":"Because if you're using somebody else's"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2158.722,"endTime":2162.472,"body":"software, you understand there are"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2162.472,"endTime":2166.252,"body":"going to be limitations that, in the"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2162.472,"endTime":2166.252,"body":"sense that you are building within the"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2166.252,"endTime":2167.722,"body":"confines of what they're offering for you."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2168.372,"endTime":2171.222,"body":"And so, is this software going to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2168.372,"endTime":2171.222,"body":"be meeting your goals, and for how"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2171.222,"endTime":2173.022,"body":"long, you could outgrow that as well."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2173.242,"endTime":2176.262,"body":"So, much like it's an iterative process,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2173.242,"endTime":2176.262,"body":"when you're having this build versus"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2176.462,"endTime":2180.102,"body":"buy debate, especially on the topic of"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2176.462,"endTime":2180.102,"body":"something like this, of building the"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2180.102,"endTime":2184.542,"body":"standardizations and building these"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2180.102,"endTime":2184.542,"body":"processes in place, continue to iterate"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2184.542,"endTime":2187.992,"body":"on it, continue to see if this tooling"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2184.542,"endTime":2187.992,"body":"that we have right now, especially in"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2187.992,"endTime":2193.602,"body":"a place that is continuously developing"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2187.992,"endTime":2193.602,"body":"over time, so rapidly, especially"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2193.602,"endTime":2196.092,"body":"like in the Gen AI space, you're going"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2193.602,"endTime":2196.092,"body":"to have to keep on revisiting this."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2196.539,"endTime":2198.319,"body":"Dan, what's your"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2196.539,"endTime":2198.319,"body":"perspective on the build vs."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2198.349,"endTime":2202.289,"body":"buy idea, particularly as a founder"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2198.349,"endTime":2202.289,"body":"who, I mean, you have to convince"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2202.289,"endTime":2206.839,"body":"teams that they should buy LinearB's"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2202.289,"endTime":2206.839,"body":"platform and not build it in house."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2206.859,"endTime":2209.919,"body":"Why, why should they, or why"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2206.859,"endTime":2209.919,"body":"should they not, in which cases?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2210.409,"endTime":2213.264,"body":"First of all, I I really"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2210.409,"endTime":2213.264,"body":"want to read what Kelly wrote."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2213.324,"endTime":2214.674,"body":"So everyone should check that out."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2214.734,"endTime":2217.684,"body":"I think nothing in the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2214.734,"endTime":2217.684,"body":"world's like black and white."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2217.684,"endTime":2221.454,"body":"I'm sure sure there's in between"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2217.684,"endTime":2221.454,"body":"but this is how I would explain it."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2221.648,"endTime":2227.348,"body":"First ask yourself is the thing"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2221.648,"endTime":2227.348,"body":"customer value facing or not."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2227.924,"endTime":2230.324,"body":"Is it customer value facing or not?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2231.294,"endTime":2237.294,"body":"So for example if the answer is no"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2231.294,"endTime":2237.294,"body":"at the end of the day my customers"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2237.814,"endTime":2243.069,"body":"will not receive value from it So"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2237.814,"endTime":2243.069,"body":"they're not going to get value from it."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2243.089,"endTime":2244.709,"body":"Then I think buying's okay."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2244.859,"endTime":2246.099,"body":"And I'll give an example."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2246.603,"endTime":2250.903,"body":"Do customers get value"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2246.603,"endTime":2250.903,"body":"at LinearB from email."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2251.473,"endTime":2252.773,"body":"No, they don't."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2252.983,"endTime":2254.453,"body":"We buy email from Google."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2255.036,"endTime":2259.796,"body":"So, we're not in the business of"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2255.036,"endTime":2259.796,"body":"building an email solution, okay?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2260.286,"endTime":2261.106,"body":"Something like that."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2261.596,"endTime":2263.736,"body":"So, I'm okay with buying that."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2263.836,"endTime":2267.336,"body":"Because I don't want to create, I know"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2263.836,"endTime":2267.336,"body":"this would go like back in the day"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2267.336,"endTime":2269.666,"body":"to like the 70s or 80s or something."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2269.706,"endTime":2271.346,"body":"No, we provide metrics."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2271.796,"endTime":2277.426,"body":"So, for example, Conor, what we would"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2271.796,"endTime":2277.426,"body":"say to our customers is, you're not"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2277.426,"endTime":2280.186,"body":"in the industry of creating metrics."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2280.186,"endTime":2281.196,"body":"Your customers don't"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2281.676,"endTime":2282.516,"body":"care about that."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2282.666,"endTime":2284.826,"body":"It helps you improve internally."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2285.116,"endTime":2286.886,"body":"So buying is the right move."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2287.926,"endTime":2293.106,"body":"Anything that you're doing for your"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2287.926,"endTime":2293.106,"body":"customer of value that you particularly"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2293.626,"endTime":2296.986,"body":"provide to the customer, I think"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2293.626,"endTime":2296.986,"body":"you should build that yourself."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2297.106,"endTime":2298.006,"body":"That's your IP."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2298.016,"endTime":2299.846,"body":"That's why you exist as a company."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2300.426,"endTime":2306.606,"body":"The only time that I haven't done that"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2300.426,"endTime":2306.606,"body":"before where I bought is it's like we"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2306.606,"endTime":2311.206,"body":"have something that's really, really"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2306.606,"endTime":2311.206,"body":"nice customer facing value, but we're"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2311.206,"endTime":2316.926,"body":"looking to add on to that value and we"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2311.206,"endTime":2316.926,"body":"do not have the in house expertise to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2316.936,"endTime":2323.616,"body":"do so or the timeframe that I need to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2316.936,"endTime":2323.616,"body":"supply this to the customer is too small."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2325.106,"endTime":2329.396,"body":"And in that situation, I really"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2325.106,"endTime":2329.396,"body":"like the idea of what's worked"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2329.406,"endTime":2331.126,"body":"best for me is like aqua hiring."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2331.636,"endTime":2337.786,"body":"I buy the technology from a smaller"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2331.636,"endTime":2337.786,"body":"company, but the key to that is I want"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2337.786,"endTime":2342.776,"body":"to bring the engineers with me and I want"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2337.786,"endTime":2342.776,"body":"them to be the best engineers possible."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2343.356,"endTime":2344.966,"body":"And that's worked really, really well."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2345.216,"endTime":2346.816,"body":"You know, as you"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2345.216,"endTime":2346.816,"body":"said, it's not black and white."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2346.906,"endTime":2351.566,"body":"There are always going to be situations"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2346.906,"endTime":2351.566,"body":"where we find that it is better for"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2351.566,"endTime":2355.821,"body":"us to buy something at first because"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2351.566,"endTime":2355.821,"body":"we don't have the resources in house"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2355.821,"endTime":2359.421,"body":"to actually build her out right now,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2355.821,"endTime":2359.421,"body":"and, you know, we will eventually get"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2359.421,"endTime":2363.531,"body":"back around to actually building that"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2359.421,"endTime":2363.531,"body":"once, you know, we have a, a timeframe"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2363.531,"endTime":2367.311,"body":"set, and that's why I, I really stress"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2363.531,"endTime":2367.311,"body":"if you're going to go the buy route"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2367.311,"endTime":2368.891,"body":"with something you can build in house."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2369.551,"endTime":2372.341,"body":"If you're signing a one year"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2369.551,"endTime":2372.341,"body":"contract, there's your timeline."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2372.451,"endTime":2375.881,"body":"Make sure you're working within that"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2372.451,"endTime":2375.881,"body":"one year contract to be able to research"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2375.911,"endTime":2378.521,"body":"and build and test to replace what it is"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2378.531,"endTime":2379.161,"body":"that you purchased."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2379.171,"endTime":2379.501,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2379.981,"endTime":2381.901,"body":"I'll give you another non"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2379.981,"endTime":2381.901,"body":"black and white thing."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2381.901,"endTime":2385.541,"body":"Some of our best customers at"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2381.901,"endTime":2385.541,"body":"LinearB, so with LinearB, right,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2385.541,"endTime":2386.861,"body":"you get this metrics program."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2386.871,"endTime":2393.501,"body":"Some of our best customers, they had their"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2386.871,"endTime":2393.501,"body":"own metrics program, let's say for a year."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2393.501,"endTime":2396.011,"body":"So they started by building their own."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2396.411,"endTime":2399.941,"body":"And then when they came to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2396.411,"endTime":2399.941,"body":"LinearB, they're highly educated."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2400.181,"endTime":2401.961,"body":"They know what they're shopping for."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2402.501,"endTime":2405.871,"body":"They understand, Oh, I get a"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2402.501,"endTime":2405.871,"body":"lot of this metric stuff out of"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2405.891,"endTime":2407.351,"body":"the box, but I can combine it."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2407.601,"endTime":2411.821,"body":"They're basically smarter buyers,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2407.601,"endTime":2411.821,"body":"smarter customers, but understand,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2411.821,"endTime":2416.111,"body":"okay, we took it as far as we"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2411.821,"endTime":2416.111,"body":"could, and now it's worth buying."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2416.623,"endTime":2418.593,"body":"So, I mean, I like that as well."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2418.593,"endTime":2421.443,"body":"Like, start experimenting first in house."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2421.723,"endTime":2423.513,"body":"Otherwise, you're like a naive shopper."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2424.053,"endTime":2426.353,"body":"For you,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2424.053,"endTime":2426.353,"body":"that is an ideal customer."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2426.493,"endTime":2429.063,"body":"Because they already understand"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2426.493,"endTime":2429.063,"body":"the value of your product."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2429.373,"endTime":2432.643,"body":"They understand, they can"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2429.373,"endTime":2432.643,"body":"expand upon it, and they make a smart"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2432.653,"endTime":2435.943,"body":"decision of what vendor to go with"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2432.653,"endTime":2435.943,"body":"because they know what they need."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2436.171,"endTime":2439.281,"body":"And part of that need"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2436.171,"endTime":2439.281,"body":"is this change that we've seen in"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2439.281,"endTime":2441.821,"body":"the role of the engineering leader"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2439.281,"endTime":2441.821,"body":"over the last couple of years."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2442.191,"endTime":2445.121,"body":"Uh, that engineering leaders today"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2442.191,"endTime":2445.121,"body":"need to be stronger business leaders."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2445.121,"endTime":2448.441,"body":"They need to be able to report to"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2445.121,"endTime":2448.441,"body":"the executive team on, you know,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2448.441,"endTime":2449.621,"body":"here's the value we're delivering."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2449.911,"endTime":2451.221,"body":"You know, here's the"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2449.911,"endTime":2451.221,"body":"efficiency we're delivering."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2451.281,"endTime":2454.511,"body":"Particularly as CFOs and others"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2451.281,"endTime":2454.511,"body":"are starting to look really fine"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2454.511,"endTime":2456.941,"body":"tuned and say, Hey, is this org"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2454.511,"endTime":2456.941,"body":"as efficient as I want it to be?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2456.941,"endTime":2458.221,"body":"Where can we cut costs?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2458.441,"endTime":2462.991,"body":"And, and Kelly, you highlighted at the"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2458.441,"endTime":2462.991,"body":"start uh, of this morning, you, this great"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2463.351,"endTime":2468.131,"body":"tweet by Taylor Poindexter on, Twitter,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2463.351,"endTime":2468.131,"body":"uh, that's engineering underscore bae, uh,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2468.151,"endTime":2470.301,"body":"saying I'm helping a friend's job search,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2470.471,"endTime":2472.951,"body":"and I saw a hands on director"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2470.471,"endTime":2472.951,"body":"of engineering role at a"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2472.951,"endTime":2474.531,"body":"company that's 200 people."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2474.981,"endTime":2478.701,"body":"Expected to manage several teams,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2474.981,"endTime":2478.701,"body":"oversee technical direction, code 15"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2478.701,"endTime":2482.416,"body":"percent of the time, and help with"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2478.701,"endTime":2482.416,"body":"company wide strategy, recruit, etc."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2482.766,"endTime":2485.296,"body":"Max total comp of 180k."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2485.336,"endTime":2486.306,"body":"Would you do it?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2486.539,"endTime":2489.599,"body":"I'd just love to get your thoughts,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2486.539,"endTime":2489.599,"body":"Kelly, cause I, I know this, this,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2489.619,"endTime":2491.149,"body":"uh, hiring piece is a huge one."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2491.439,"endTime":2491.969,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2492.019,"endTime":2494.139,"body":"Uh, my first response is LOL."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2494.199,"endTime":2494.999,"body":"Absolutely not."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2495.676,"endTime":2497.296,"body":"I would not go for that job."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2497.436,"endTime":2502.336,"body":"I think if you removed the"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2497.436,"endTime":2502.336,"body":"coding piece of it, I might"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2502.346,"endTime":2503.906,"body":"have time to do the rest of it."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2504.196,"endTime":2508.506,"body":"Now, kind of going back to your"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2504.196,"endTime":2508.506,"body":"initial question of, being a stronger"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2508.506,"endTime":2511.866,"body":"business leader, I think that is"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2508.506,"endTime":2511.866,"body":"such an incredible value that you"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2511.866,"endTime":2515.326,"body":"get in an engineering leader, if they"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2511.866,"endTime":2515.326,"body":"understand how the business works"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2515.356,"endTime":2517.086,"body":"and how business decisions are made."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2517.496,"endTime":2518.006,"body":"Why?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2518.196,"endTime":2522.066,"body":"Because as you're reporting up to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2518.196,"endTime":2522.066,"body":"senior leadership, you're trying to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2522.066,"endTime":2525.831,"body":"make a case for purchasing something,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2522.066,"endTime":2525.831,"body":"hiring more people, the more you"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2525.831,"endTime":2529.081,"body":"understand about the business, the"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2525.831,"endTime":2529.081,"body":"more you understand how the decisions"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2529.081,"endTime":2532.891,"body":"you're making, what you're requesting,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2529.081,"endTime":2532.891,"body":"is going to improve the business, the"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2532.941,"endTime":2534.601,"body":"easier case you're going to be making."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2535.011,"endTime":2538.291,"body":"So I think that is one of the most"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2535.011,"endTime":2538.291,"body":"valuable things that you can, you can"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2538.291,"endTime":2540.061,"body":"find in a leader as you're managing up."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2540.091,"endTime":2541.521,"body":"It's also really helpful for your team."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2541.791,"endTime":2545.051,"body":"If you can explain the business reasons"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2541.791,"endTime":2545.051,"body":"why decisions are being made, then"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2545.051,"endTime":2546.381,"body":"you can explain that down as well."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2546.788,"endTime":2549.268,"body":"And Dan, I know you've"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2546.788,"endTime":2549.268,"body":"talked about this as the dual mandate of"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2549.278,"endTime":2552.818,"body":"the engineering leader, being in both this"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2549.278,"endTime":2552.818,"body":"technical expert and a business leader."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2553.373,"endTime":2555.753,"body":"What do you think about this kind of,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2553.373,"endTime":2555.753,"body":"you know, job posting, for example?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2556.034,"endTime":2561.214,"body":"I think being a director is one"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2556.034,"endTime":2561.214,"body":"of the hardest jobs in any organization."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2561.624,"endTime":2564.544,"body":"And it's exactly because"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2561.624,"endTime":2564.544,"body":"of what that role said."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2565.214,"endTime":2569.564,"body":"They want you to be like a manager"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2565.214,"endTime":2569.564,"body":"and understand the business."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2569.894,"endTime":2572.774,"body":"But they also don't want you"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2569.894,"endTime":2572.774,"body":"to get too far away from the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2572.774,"endTime":2574.444,"body":"code where you can't impact."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2574.444,"endTime":2578.654,"body":"And that's probably why it says, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2574.444,"endTime":2578.654,"body":"15 percent of the time you'll be coding."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2579.034,"endTime":2583.854,"body":"I'm translating it that as we want"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2579.034,"endTime":2583.854,"body":"you to stay close to engineering"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2583.854,"endTime":2585.184,"body":"so, you know, what's going on."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2585.864,"endTime":2590.474,"body":"And I I've seen this with every company"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2585.864,"endTime":2590.474,"body":"that I work with, that director role"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2590.474,"endTime":2593.914,"body":"is one of the hardest roles to be"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2590.474,"endTime":2593.914,"body":"in because they want you to do both."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2594.624,"endTime":2599.399,"body":"Now, Conor, differently, a little bit"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2594.624,"endTime":2599.399,"body":"differently, when we think of like a"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2599.409,"endTime":2604.449,"body":"VP role, where you're like the head of"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2599.409,"endTime":2604.449,"body":"engineering, I think the new thing that's"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2604.449,"endTime":2610.309,"body":"been added on to there is, not only"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2604.449,"endTime":2610.309,"body":"are you responsible for the execution,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2610.669,"endTime":2615.749,"body":"meaning is the software getting out to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2610.669,"endTime":2615.749,"body":"production on time with high quality,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2615.839,"endTime":2621.539,"body":"that's where the industry first started,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2615.839,"endTime":2621.539,"body":"they've also added on to, you need"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2621.539,"endTime":2623.509,"body":"to know your resource allocation."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2623.679,"endTime":2627.349,"body":"You need to know everything"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2623.679,"endTime":2627.349,"body":"that has to do with what does"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2627.349,"endTime":2629.279,"body":"the CEO want you to deliver."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2629.279,"endTime":2630.729,"body":"That's what the dual mandate is."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2630.729,"endTime":2633.569,"body":"It's like business"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2630.729,"endTime":2633.569,"body":"alignment plus execution."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2634.189,"endTime":2635.669,"body":"And that's how I think it's changed."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2635.669,"endTime":2639.039,"body":"I don't know over the last 10"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2635.669,"endTime":2639.039,"body":"to 15 years for that VP role."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2639.366,"endTime":2642.126,"body":"I think that's"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2639.366,"endTime":2642.126,"body":"a great point to end us on, Dan."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2642.146,"endTime":2644.436,"body":"Uh, I know we could keep going"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2642.146,"endTime":2644.436,"body":"for another hour or two here."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2644.836,"endTime":2647.936,"body":"But, uh, these episodes are long"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2644.836,"endTime":2647.936,"body":"enough already, so hopefully everyone"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2647.936,"endTime":2650.756,"body":"stuck with us through this one, and"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2647.936,"endTime":2650.756,"body":"Kelly, Dan, thanks for joining me for"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2650.756,"endTime":2652.276,"body":"this really wide ranging discussion."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2652.276,"endTime":2653.346,"body":"It's been a ton of fun."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2654.036,"endTime":2658.216,"body":"Listeners, if you're still here, remember,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2654.036,"endTime":2658.216,"body":"if there's a topic you want to hear Kelly"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2658.216,"endTime":2662.316,"body":"and Dan discuss, let us know on social"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2658.216,"endTime":2662.316,"body":"media, or via our Dev Interrupted Sub"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2662.316,"endTime":2664.796,"body":"stack, or I guess tweet at Kelly and I."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2664.806,"endTime":2666.746,"body":"We intend to do more of"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2664.806,"endTime":2666.746,"body":"these types of episodes."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2667.081,"endTime":2668.311,"body":"And we'll see you all next week."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2668.311,"endTime":2670.971,"body":"And until then, you can find more"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2668.311,"endTime":2670.971,"body":"of our content on LinkedIn and via"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2670.971,"endTime":2672.141,"body":"our substack at devinterrupted."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2672.201,"endTime":2672.651,"body":"substack."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2672.681,"endTime":2673.081,"body":"com."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2673.411,"endTime":2675.151,"body":"Uh, and don't forget to check"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2673.411,"endTime":2675.151,"body":"out Kelly's newsletter as"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2675.151,"endTime":2675.601,"body":"well,  engineeringleadership."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2676.351,"endTime":2677.001,"body":"xyz."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2677.321,"endTime":2678.671,"body":"Uh, thanks again, Dan and Kelly."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2679.191,"endTime":2679.661,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2680.401,"endTime":2680.921,"body":"Thank you."}]}