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DI on your podcast app."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":112.691,"endTime":116.092,"body":"It helps us continue bringing"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":112.691,"endTime":116.092,"body":"you great conversations"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":116.092,"endTime":117.212,"body":"with leaders like Malta."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":117.676,"endTime":121.613,"body":"All right, let's kick this"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":117.676,"endTime":121.613,"body":"off into our first segment."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":121.953,"endTime":124.033,"body":"Let's talk about"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":121.953,"endTime":124.033,"body":"platform engineering"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":124.033,"endTime":125.623,"body":"and some AI workflows."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":126.003,"endTime":128.503,"body":"Multa, platform engineering"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":126.003,"endTime":128.503,"body":"has emerged as a"},{"speaker":"Dan 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not"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":379.575,"endTime":381.935,"body":"staying on the right track"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":379.575,"endTime":381.935,"body":"unless that's someone's job."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":382.035,"endTime":384.495,"body":"And so that's when you have to"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":382.035,"endTime":384.495,"body":"kind of make that investment."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":384.6,"endTime":386.2,"body":"Yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":384.6,"endTime":386.2,"body":"I'd agree with you."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":386.21,"endTime":390.59,"body":"Like, honestly, the companies"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":386.21,"endTime":390.59,"body":"that we're working with, you"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":390.59,"endTime":393.72,"body":"know, over, definitely over a"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":390.59,"endTime":393.72,"body":"hundred developers, sometimes"},{"speaker":"Dan 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have these,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":434.779,"endTime":436.589,"body":"like, engineers, they're on"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":434.779,"endTime":436.589,"body":"the ground, and they feel"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":436.589,"endTime":438.859,"body":"the pain, and they kind of"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":436.589,"endTime":438.859,"body":"make their own thing better."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":439.129,"endTime":442.279,"body":"It's just that that"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":439.129,"endTime":442.279,"body":"doesn't scale, and so"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":442.279,"endTime":443.019,"body":"you need both, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":443.029,"endTime":445.509,"body":"Like, that's, that's how, where"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":443.029,"endTime":445.509,"body":"you, the, where, where on the"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":445.509,"endTime":447.589,"body":"extreme you are between them"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":445.509,"endTime":447.589,"body":"is kind of the oscillation."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":447.599,"endTime":450.799,"body":"But, the professional thing,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":447.599,"endTime":450.799,"body":"actually, is to recognize"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":450.799,"endTime":453.839,"body":"that these are, both of"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":450.799,"endTime":453.839,"body":"these, Extremes have trade"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":453.839,"endTime":455.529,"body":"offs and that you want to be"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":453.839,"endTime":455.529,"body":"somewhere in the middle that"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":455.529,"endTime":458.629,"body":"you want to have the DevOps"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":455.529,"endTime":458.629,"body":"like boots on the ground of"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":458.629,"endTime":460.129,"body":"like, I, I feel the pain."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":460.139,"endTime":460.989,"body":"I'm going to make it better."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":460.989,"endTime":464.049,"body":"And the like centralized"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":460.989,"endTime":464.049,"body":"team were like, it's my job."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":464.349,"endTime":467.199,"body":"I'm going to, I'm getting"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":464.349,"endTime":467.199,"body":"paid for creating great"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":467.199,"endTime":469.909,"body":"available experience, highly"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":467.199,"endTime":469.909,"body":"productive teams, etc."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":469.949,"endTime":470.169,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":470.169,"endTime":471.809,"body":"So that, so it's my main focus."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":471.809,"endTime":474.149,"body":"And that's just creates"},{"speaker":"Malte 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platform"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":507.089,"endTime":511.799,"body":"teams, or if you don't have a"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":511.799,"endTime":515.779,"body":"platform engineering team yet,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":511.799,"endTime":515.779,"body":"could kind of be that, um,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":515.839,"endTime":519.169,"body":"happy to have you dive in to a"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":515.839,"endTime":519.169,"body":"little bit of what, what you,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":519.189,"endTime":521.984,"body":"you all got cooking there for"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":519.189,"endTime":521.984,"body":"platform engineering teams."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":522.014,"endTime":522.314,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":522.314,"endTime":526.204,"body":"I think the, I mean, we, at"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":522.314,"endTime":526.204,"body":"our core, what we do is do a"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":526.204,"endTime":531.364,"body":"very opinionated CICD workflow"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":526.204,"endTime":531.364,"body":"that deploys your application."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":531.744,"endTime":532.044,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":532.494,"endTime":535.374,"body":"And, and we built the entire"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":532.494,"endTime":535.374,"body":"developer experience around it."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":535.404,"endTime":537.834,"body":"And the other thing that we"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":535.404,"endTime":537.834,"body":"also do, and I think that is."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":538.229,"endTime":541.579,"body":"A core part of platform"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":538.229,"endTime":541.579,"body":"engineering is we, first of"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":541.579,"endTime":545.609,"body":"all, built frameworks like"},{"speaker":"Malte 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we."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":574.633,"endTime":577.393,"body":"Um, while we support like,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":574.633,"endTime":577.393,"body":"I think, 35 framework or"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":577.403,"endTime":581.383,"body":"something crazy, kind of like"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":577.403,"endTime":581.383,"body":"that, we, we deeply understand"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":581.463,"endTime":584.213,"body":"the patterns, how people build"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":581.463,"endTime":584.213,"body":"applications inside of them."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":584.803,"endTime":589.133,"body":"And that allows us to, to kind"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":584.803,"endTime":589.133,"body":"of automate the operations,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":589.433,"endTime":591.903,"body":"uh, based on those primitives"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":589.433,"endTime":591.903,"body":"in a way that if you kind"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":591.903,"endTime":594.493,"body":"of treat applications as a"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":591.903,"endTime":594.493,"body":"black box, you just can't."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":594.493,"endTime":596.123,"body":"And I think that's a,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":594.493,"endTime":596.123,"body":"that's a great point."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":596.443,"endTime":600.823,"body":"We call that approach Framework"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":596.443,"endTime":600.823,"body":"Defined Infrastructure, and it's"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":600.833,"endTime":602.083,"body":"been really, really successful."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":602.249,"endTime":604.219,"body":"you know, it's actually not"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":602.249,"endTime":604.219,"body":"completely clear that this"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":604.219,"endTime":607.299,"body":"approach absolutely 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what"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":621.903,"endTime":623.673,"body":"are the values of that opinion?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":623.673,"endTime":625.553,"body":"Or like, what's the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":623.673,"endTime":625.553,"body":"philosophy behind it?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":625.553,"endTime":626.893,"body":"If you can say in a few words."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":627.073,"endTime":629.203,"body":"have this phrase"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":627.073,"endTime":629.203,"body":"that I say, which is that"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":629.253,"endTime":632.143,"body":"iteration velocity solves"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":629.253,"endTime":632.143,"body":"all known software problems."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":632.143,"endTime":632.188,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":632.481,"endTime":634.711,"body":"it's a code from, well,"},{"speaker":"Malte 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topic."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":684.55,"endTime":686.99,"body":"We made that a first"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":684.55,"endTime":686.99,"body":"class, platform feature."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":687.163,"endTime":690.25,"body":"we are big believers in"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":687.163,"endTime":690.25,"body":"like preview deployment."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":690.25,"endTime":692.93,"body":"So like every time you make a"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":690.25,"endTime":692.93,"body":"branch, you get an associated"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":692.93,"endTime":694.14,"body":"application copy, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":695.726,"endTime":696.976,"body":"and then even when you deploy."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":697.476,"endTime":699.906,"body":"And you're in production, we"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":697.476,"endTime":699.906,"body":"have a feature called Instant"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":699.906,"endTime":705.476,"body":"Rollback, where we guarantee"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":699.906,"endTime":705.476,"body":"you to be back to the version"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":705.476,"endTime":709.496,"body":"of your choice in under 300"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":705.476,"endTime":709.496,"body":"milliseconds, uh, globally."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":709.626,"endTime":710.166,"body":"Yeah, very"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":710.406,"endTime":712.096,"body":"And if you"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":710.406,"endTime":712.096,"body":"compare that to like a"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":712.216,"endTime":715.416,"body":"traditional kind of more, um,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":712.216,"endTime":715.416,"body":"Kubernetes setup, where you,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":715.472,"endTime":716.333,"body":"it can be anything, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":716.333,"endTime":717.133,"body":"It can be definitely minutes."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":717.468,"endTime":721.158,"body":"Um, but we, we have absolutely"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":717.468,"endTime":721.158,"body":"instant rollback and you can"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":721.158,"endTime":723.758,"body":"also do it to any version that"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":721.158,"endTime":723.758,"body":"you had in production before."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":724.048,"endTime":725.878,"body":"Like technically it"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":724.048,"endTime":725.878,"body":"could even be a year old."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":725.973,"endTime":726.583,"body":"Yeah, totally."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":726.623,"endTime":730.033,"body":"I mean, kind of had me at like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":726.623,"endTime":730.033,"body":"improving iteration velocity"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":730.033,"endTime":733.323,"body":"and all of that, like decreasing"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":730.033,"endTime":733.323,"body":"wait times, decreasing build"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":733.343,"endTime":736.643,"body":"times, you know, again, all the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":733.343,"endTime":736.643,"body":"best companies that I'm working"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":736.643,"endTime":740.603,"body":"with are measuring those things,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":736.643,"endTime":740.603,"body":"working to improve those things."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":740.613,"endTime":743.133,"body":"So that's kind of like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":740.613,"endTime":743.133,"body":"right in line where we come"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":743.133,"endTime":745.563,"body":"from, the LinearB product."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":745.663,"endTime":746.083,"body":"Now."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":746.228,"endTime":748.808,"body":"AI obviously is super hot."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":748.808,"endTime":751.382,"body":"Everyone's, talking about"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":748.808,"endTime":751.382,"body":"it, trying to talk about it."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":751.392,"endTime":752.402,"body":"Want to talk about it."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":752.639,"endTime":755.869,"body":"How does like AI fit into these"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":752.639,"endTime":755.869,"body":"workflows or like, what, what"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":755.869,"endTime":759.889,"body":"are you seeing in terms of"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":755.869,"endTime":759.889,"body":"either your company or other"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":759.889,"endTime":763.149,"body":"companies, like utilizing"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":759.889,"endTime":763.149,"body":"AI within, uh, workflows?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":763.466,"endTime":763.726,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":763.726,"endTime":766.216,"body":"I guess it's the, the"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":763.726,"endTime":766.216,"body":"question of the hour."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":766.27,"endTime":768.88,"body":"I would say like probably like"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":766.27,"endTime":768.88,"body":"a year ago, maybe a little"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":768.88,"endTime":771.777,"body":"bit more, obviously like lit"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":768.88,"endTime":771.777,"body":"that then literally every"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":771.777,"endTime":774.267,"body":"company would start saying"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":771.777,"endTime":774.267,"body":"like, Hey, there's clearly"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":774.277,"endTime":775.647,"body":"some revolution going on here."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":775.864,"endTime":776.894,"body":"what's our space in it?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":776.934,"endTime":777.834,"body":"Like, what's our role?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":777.854,"endTime":779.254,"body":"Like, do we even need to exist?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":779.491,"endTime":783.887,"body":"and I'm actually really happy"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":779.491,"endTime":783.887,"body":"that, that at Vercel, we, we"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":783.887,"endTime":786.847,"body":"have found two answers and"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":783.887,"endTime":786.847,"body":"I really love the answers"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":786.847,"endTime":789.427,"body":"because the answers are so,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":786.847,"endTime":789.427,"body":"they feel so native to us."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":789.427,"endTime":791.297,"body":"Like they feel really like,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":789.427,"endTime":791.297,"body":"okay, this is actually."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":791.867,"endTime":793.547,"body":"It took us a while to"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":791.867,"endTime":793.547,"body":"figure out, but now it's"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":793.547,"endTime":795.697,"body":"like, obviously this is"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":793.547,"endTime":795.697,"body":"what we should do, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":796.517,"endTime":801.437,"body":"And so the two answers are"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":796.517,"endTime":801.437,"body":"that we make an AI SDK, so"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":801.447,"endTime":804.317,"body":"a software development kit"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":801.447,"endTime":804.317,"body":"for building AI applications."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":804.737,"endTime":807.427,"body":"And that really fits with us"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":804.737,"endTime":807.427,"body":"because, you know, we're at"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":807.437,"endTime":808.767,"body":"heart framework makers, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":808.767,"endTime":812.742,"body":"We make software frameworks,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":808.767,"endTime":812.742,"body":"so we give you an SDK."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":812.903,"endTime":816.423,"body":"to, to build AI based"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":812.903,"endTime":816.423,"body":"applications, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":816.513,"endTime":819.303,"body":"Um, and the other thing"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":816.513,"endTime":819.303,"body":"that we have built is a"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":819.303,"endTime":820.903,"body":"software tool called V0."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":821.633,"endTime":826.573,"body":"Which is, the initial idea was"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":821.633,"endTime":826.573,"body":"it builds the V0 of your app."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":826.633,"endTime":829.263,"body":"So you type in the prompt,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":826.633,"endTime":829.263,"body":"and out comes the React"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":829.263,"endTime":832.403,"body":"code that looks great,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":829.263,"endTime":832.403,"body":"that implements your app."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":832.653,"endTime":835.713,"body":"Right, and we've now kind"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":832.653,"endTime":835.713,"body":"of started iterating on"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":835.713,"endTime":838.943,"body":"that and turned it into, uh,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":835.713,"endTime":838.943,"body":"Um, that plus an assistant"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":838.953,"endTime":841.603,"body":"that, like, teaches you"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":838.953,"endTime":841.603,"body":"how to use the frameworks"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":841.603,"endTime":842.993,"body":"you're making and so forth."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":843.493,"endTime":845.983,"body":"And so we have this, like,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":843.493,"endTime":845.983,"body":"thing that builds your app"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":846.273,"endTime":849.343,"body":"and as someone, like, that's,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":846.273,"endTime":849.343,"body":"that's like our job anyway."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":849.403,"endTime":852.423,"body":"And so being able to, to"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":849.403,"endTime":852.423,"body":"do that is, is, is I think"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":852.433,"endTime":855.993,"body":"really key and, and, and it"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":852.433,"endTime":855.993,"body":"has, like, resonated wildly"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":856.003,"endTime":858.243,"body":"with the community, um, which"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":856.003,"endTime":858.243,"body":"obviously makes us super"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":858.373,"endTime":860.453,"body":"I think both"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":858.373,"endTime":860.453,"body":"of these are interesting,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":860.453,"endTime":861.503,"body":"but maybe let's take it."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":862.023,"endTime":866.433,"body":"One by one, you were talking"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":862.023,"endTime":866.433,"body":"about the AI SDK and you"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":866.433,"endTime":869.123,"body":"started with like building"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":866.433,"endTime":869.123,"body":"an AI application, like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":869.123,"endTime":870.923,"body":"what is an AI application?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":871.293,"endTime":873.953,"body":"And then how would I"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":871.293,"endTime":873.953,"body":"use like the AI SDK?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":873.953,"endTime":875.153,"body":"And then we'll get"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":873.953,"endTime":875.153,"body":"to the other thing."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":875.352,"endTime":877.492,"body":"alright, it's"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":875.352,"endTime":877.492,"body":"such a big topic, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":877.492,"endTime":880.983,"body":"But like, big picture thing"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":877.492,"endTime":880.983,"body":"is that you mentioned I was at"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":880.983,"endTime":881.893,"body":"Google for the longest time."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":881.893,"endTime":884.883,"body":"So everyone around me"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":881.893,"endTime":884.883,"body":"was building AI apps and"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":884.883,"endTime":886.973,"body":"that was whatever, five,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":884.883,"endTime":886.973,"body":"six, seven years ago."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":887.453,"endTime":888.983,"body":"But everyone isn't quite true."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":889.283,"endTime":891.153,"body":"Those were all"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":889.283,"endTime":891.153,"body":"like ultra experts."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":891.477,"endTime":895.01,"body":"and that's the revolution"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":891.477,"endTime":895.01,"body":"of AI engineering is that"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":895.12,"endTime":898.77,"body":"now everyone who can call an"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":895.12,"endTime":898.77,"body":"API can be an AI engineer."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":899.16,"endTime":900.44,"body":"And so the workflow is"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":899.16,"endTime":900.44,"body":"completely different."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":900.44,"endTime":903.425,"body":"It used to be that you had to"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":900.44,"endTime":903.425,"body":"like Go collect data, and then"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":903.425,"endTime":906.555,"body":"you train this highly specific"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":903.425,"endTime":906.555,"body":"model, and then go collect data,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":906.665,"endTime":908.055,"body":"like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":906.665,"endTime":908.055,"body":"really specialized,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":908.149,"endTime":910.349,"body":"probably can like"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":908.149,"endTime":910.349,"body":"do something quite reasonable,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":910.369,"endTime":911.969,"body":"like, at your first shot, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":912.229,"endTime":915.264,"body":"I mean, and you can literally"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":912.229,"endTime":915.264,"body":"prototype it by, say, Trying out"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":915.264,"endTime":918.791,"body":"ChatGBT and see what it would"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":915.264,"endTime":918.791,"body":"do for like your problem space."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":919.561,"endTime":922.611,"body":"And so there are some other"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":919.561,"endTime":922.611,"body":"issues like, cause those are"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":922.611,"endTime":925.141,"body":"really expensive to operate and"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":922.611,"endTime":925.141,"body":"we can get into that, but like"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":925.141,"endTime":926.141,"body":"you start with something really."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":926.451,"endTime":930.53,"body":"really good using the Frontier"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":926.451,"endTime":930.53,"body":"model and using that system"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":930.54,"endTime":931.72,"body":"is just calling an API."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":932.069,"endTime":934.109,"body":"but it's not really just"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":932.069,"endTime":934.109,"body":"calling in and API because"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":934.109,"endTime":934.899,"body":"there's some other stuff."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":934.899,"endTime":938.329,"body":"And so we built this SEK and"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":934.899,"endTime":938.329,"body":"it basically has two jobs."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":939.003,"endTime":942.033,"body":"harmonizes the APIs between all"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":939.003,"endTime":942.033,"body":"the different model providers."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":942.355,"endTime":944.665,"body":"And one of the learnings"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":942.355,"endTime":944.665,"body":"we had, that it's actually."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":945.135,"endTime":947.275,"body":"Less work than you would"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":945.135,"endTime":947.275,"body":"anticipate to switch from"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":947.275,"endTime":949.785,"body":"OpenAI to Entropiq or to Google."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":950.605,"endTime":952.055,"body":"Like that's actually"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":950.605,"endTime":952.055,"body":"something you could do."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":952.292,"endTime":954.452,"body":"but obviously if you're, if"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":952.292,"endTime":954.452,"body":"you're a, if your software"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":954.612,"endTime":956.692,"body":"treats them as the same, you"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":954.612,"endTime":956.692,"body":"can think about it like, like"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":956.692,"endTime":961.452,"body":"JDBC in Java land, 20 years ago,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":956.692,"endTime":961.452,"body":"harmonized how you talk to a"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":961.452,"endTime":965.112,"body":"database, AI SDK harmonizes how"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":961.452,"endTime":965.112,"body":"you talk to different AI models."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":965.256,"endTime":967.476,"body":"that's really kind of, again,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":965.256,"endTime":967.476,"body":"native to what we do on the"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":967.476,"endTime":971.556,"body":"front end is that taught AI."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":971.571,"endTime":977.331,"body":"You can think about"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":971.571,"endTime":977.331,"body":"it like in your app."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":977.621,"endTime":979.271,"body":"It can be internal,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":977.621,"endTime":979.271,"body":"it can be external."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":979.471,"endTime":981.161,"body":"You have domain UI."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":981.301,"endTime":985.661,"body":"My favorite example is a"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":981.301,"endTime":985.661,"body":"seat map for an airplane."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":985.731,"endTime":989.291,"body":"And you could totally imagine"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":985.731,"endTime":989.291,"body":"you have this chat assistant"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":989.301,"endTime":991.731,"body":"where you say, Hey, I would"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":989.301,"endTime":991.731,"body":"like to change my seat map."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":992.061,"endTime":994.071,"body":"My flight, my seat,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":992.061,"endTime":994.071,"body":"and this booking code."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":994.511,"endTime":997.121,"body":"And then, like, ChatGPT, by"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":994.511,"endTime":997.121,"body":"default, would answer with,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":997.121,"endTime":1000.521,"body":"like, whatever, like, the, all"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":997.121,"endTime":1000.521,"body":"the codes for the open seats,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1000.521,"endTime":1001.341,"body":"and you're like, what the fuck?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1001.461,"endTime":1001.641,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1001.661,"endTime":1005.673,"body":"Like, but if it could answer"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1001.661,"endTime":1005.673,"body":"with a seat map, and you just go"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1005.673,"endTime":1008.013,"body":"pick one, and then the AI learns"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1005.673,"endTime":1008.013,"body":"about the choice you made."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1008.386,"endTime":1009.226,"body":"that would be great, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1009.226,"endTime":1011.086,"body":"And so that's what"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1009.226,"endTime":1011.086,"body":"this SDK does."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1011.086,"endTime":1015.356,"body":"It kind of, it teaches the"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1011.086,"endTime":1015.356,"body":"AI about your UI component"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1015.366,"endTime":1017.536,"body":"and your, really your"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1015.366,"endTime":1017.536,"body":"business components, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1017.536,"endTime":1019.246,"body":"Like that, that"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1017.536,"endTime":1019.246,"body":"belong to your domain."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1019.466,"endTime":1022.126,"body":"and then it makes it"},{"speaker":"Malte 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Ubl","startTime":1033.44,"endTime":1035.86,"body":"Like it's, it's growing"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1033.44,"endTime":1035.86,"body":"like, like crazy."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1035.92,"endTime":1038.323,"body":"Um, there's other things"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1035.92,"endTime":1038.323,"body":"like, for example, it"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1038.323,"endTime":1040.383,"body":"supports schema full JSON."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1040.383,"endTime":1042.443,"body":"So one of the things, the"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1040.383,"endTime":1042.443,"body":"first thing that you, you talk"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1042.443,"endTime":1045.498,"body":"to an AI and it kind of, you"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1042.443,"endTime":1045.498,"body":"really want it to respond with"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1045.498,"endTime":1048.598,"body":"JSON because like you want"},{"speaker":"Malte 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that's"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1134.582,"endTime":1135.842,"body":"really interesting."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1135.842,"endTime":1137.652,"body":"I mean, I'm sure"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1135.842,"endTime":1137.652,"body":"everyone listening, like,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1137.652,"endTime":1139.462,"body":"definitely check that out."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1139.772,"endTime":1143.16,"body":"I have a, a note here, You"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1139.772,"endTime":1143.16,"body":"have a note saying like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1143.17,"endTime":1148.2,"body":"latency is always a concern"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1143.17,"endTime":1148.2,"body":"with large language models"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1148.27,"endTime":1150.09,"body":"and other AI systems."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1150.354,"endTime":1152.834,"body":"maybe you can talk about"},{"speaker":"Dan 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ready"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1264.355,"endTime":1267.275,"body":"for, for this kind of streaming"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1267.275,"endTime":1268.975,"body":"processing and make sure"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1267.275,"endTime":1268.975,"body":"that it works end to end."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1269.4,"endTime":1272.61,"body":"Because, again, if your"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1269.4,"endTime":1272.61,"body":"API takes 30 seconds, you"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1272.61,"endTime":1276.769,"body":"want it to show something"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1272.61,"endTime":1276.769,"body":"to the user as soon as you"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1276.77,"endTime":1279.29,"body":"can, and you don't want to"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1276.77,"endTime":1279.29,"body":"wait the whole 30 seconds."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1279.87,"endTime":1282.35,"body":"Yeah, definitely,"},{"speaker":"Dan 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Ubl","startTime":1311.805,"endTime":1315.425,"body":"have my internal customers"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1316.275,"endTime":1318.975,"body":"who AI applications, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1318.975,"endTime":1320.295,"body":"Because that's what"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1318.975,"endTime":1320.295,"body":"everyone's doing."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1320.295,"endTime":1322.745,"body":"So that's, and that's my job"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1320.295,"endTime":1322.745,"body":"now as a platform team, like,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1322.755,"endTime":1324.285,"body":"enable these teams to do that."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1325.415,"endTime":1330.855,"body":"And the second part is"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1325.415,"endTime":1330.855,"body":"Obviously, AI is an incredible"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1330.915,"endTime":1336.155,"body":"tool that makes engineers more"},{"speaker":"Malte 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Lines","startTime":1366.005,"endTime":1369.385,"body":"but like developer experience"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1369.385,"endTime":1370.805,"body":"teams, most of them"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1370.805,"endTime":1374.765,"body":"have a mission to say like, how"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1370.805,"endTime":1374.765,"body":"am I going to introduce AI to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1375.995,"endTime":1380.735,"body":"improve productivity for every"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1375.995,"endTime":1380.735,"body":"developer in my organization?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1381.415,"endTime":1383.335,"body":"know, so, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1381.415,"endTime":1383.335,"body":"definitely be dabbling there."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1383.495,"endTime":1386.945,"body":"Most of the, the, uh,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1383.495,"endTime":1386.945,"body":"Uh, Developer Experience"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1386.945,"endTime":1387.765,"body":"Teams that I work with."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1387.765,"endTime":1389.415,"body":"Yeah, they're"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1387.765,"endTime":1389.415,"body":"starting with CoPilot."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1390.015,"endTime":1392.609,"body":"Um, but just wanted to see if"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1390.015,"endTime":1392.609,"body":"there was anything else that"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1392.609,"endTime":1394.455,"body":"you saw that was interesting."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1394.595,"endTime":1396.115,"body":"Uh, to maybe start"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1394.595,"endTime":1396.115,"body":"dabbling with."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1397.35,"endTime":1400.85,"body":"No, I think it's"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1397.35,"endTime":1400.85,"body":"really, like, the the side"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1400.85,"endTime":1404.521,"body":"that I think is key for"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1400.85,"endTime":1404.521,"body":"platform teams is like, how"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1404.521,"endTime":1407.251,"body":"do I enable my, like, my"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1404.521,"endTime":1407.251,"body":"customer teams to be effective"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1407.251,"endTime":1409.151,"body":"at building AI applications?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1409.551,"endTime":1409.871,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1411.061,"endTime":1417.086,"body":"And, I mean, AI applications"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1411.061,"endTime":1417.086,"body":"itself is like, You, everyone"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1417.106,"endTime":1419.176,"body":"goes to like chatbots and"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1417.106,"endTime":1419.176,"body":"like, those are actually kind"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1419.176,"endTime":1425.196,"body":"of valuable things to build,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1419.176,"endTime":1425.196,"body":"but what we see a lot is kind"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1425.196,"endTime":1431.806,"body":"of what I call invisible AI,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1425.196,"endTime":1431.806,"body":"where you use AI to do something"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1431.806,"endTime":1435.776,"body":"that was before, used to be,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1431.806,"endTime":1435.776,"body":"it was possible, but kind of"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1436.426,"endTime":1438.806,"body":"Maybe too much work, and so"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1436.426,"endTime":1438.806,"body":"you wouldn't prioritize it, and"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1438.806,"endTime":1439.876,"body":"suddenly it becomes really easy."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1440.296,"endTime":1444.612,"body":"Like, we actually have a blog"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1440.296,"endTime":1444.612,"body":"post out over, Puny code domain"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1444.872,"endTime":1448.122,"body":"formatting for Farsi domains,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1444.872,"endTime":1448.122,"body":"so the Iranian language."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1448.823,"endTime":1452.513,"body":"And there just wasn't a"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1448.823,"endTime":1452.513,"body":"library on the internet They"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1452.513,"endTime":1453.563,"body":"actually knew how to do that."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1454.433,"endTime":1455.003,"body":"Interesting."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1455.053,"endTime":1455.733,"body":"there was a spec."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1456.393,"endTime":1462.588,"body":"And OpenAI, GPT 4 O model can"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1456.393,"endTime":1462.588,"body":"like write those, these domains."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1462.928,"endTime":1463.708,"body":"It knows how to do it."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1463.94,"endTime":1465.54,"body":"just because the"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1463.94,"endTime":1465.54,"body":"spec exists, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1465.64,"endTime":1467.55,"body":"There's just no software"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1465.64,"endTime":1467.55,"body":"on the internet today"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1467.965,"endTime":1469.015,"body":"That can actually do it."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1469.345,"endTime":1471.085,"body":"And so voila, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1471.085,"endTime":1473.755,"body":"Like you have this like,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1471.085,"endTime":1473.755,"body":"uh, problem solved that,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1473.995,"endTime":1477.055,"body":"that otherwise, you know,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1473.995,"endTime":1477.055,"body":"in, in, in hours basically."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1477.205,"endTime":1477.475,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1477.685,"endTime":1479.905,"body":"And, and, but it's this"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1477.685,"endTime":1479.905,"body":"tiniest use case, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1479.905,"endTime":1480.865,"body":"Like it's, it's, and"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1480.865,"endTime":1481.255,"body":"there's no UI"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1481.35,"endTime":1481.71,"body":"to do a"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1481.71,"endTime":1483.42,"body":"task or I need to get something."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1483.49,"endTime":1484.9,"body":"Yeah, that's interesting."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1485.098,"endTime":1487.438,"body":"but it's only"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1485.098,"endTime":1487.438,"body":"an easy task if you've saw,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1487.468,"endTime":1490.318,"body":"if you've, if you have a"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1487.468,"endTime":1490.318,"body":"contract with the eye provider."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1490.858,"endTime":1494.448,"body":"If you figure it out, all"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1490.858,"endTime":1494.448,"body":"kinds of legal stuff, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1494.816,"endTime":1497.046,"body":"the first time you do it, this"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1494.816,"endTime":1497.046,"body":"is actually not so easy, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1497.046,"endTime":1500.206,"body":"Like the, the second, third,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1497.046,"endTime":1500.206,"body":"fourth time, you now have this"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1500.216,"endTime":1503.686,"body":"like super powerful weapon in"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1500.216,"endTime":1503.686,"body":"your, in your toolbox that,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1503.746,"endTime":1505.036,"body":"that can be super effective."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1505.186,"endTime":1507.706,"body":"But you have to kind of break"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1505.186,"endTime":1507.706,"body":"through that wall the first,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1507.956,"endTime":1508.886,"body":"um, doing it the first time."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1509.199,"endTime":1511.469,"body":"If I'm switching"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1509.199,"endTime":1511.469,"body":"topics here, because"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1511.469,"endTime":1514.889,"body":"you've, you've had a, like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1511.469,"endTime":1514.889,"body":"a really interesting career."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1514.889,"endTime":1517.149,"body":"Let's talk a minute about"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1514.889,"endTime":1517.149,"body":"engineering leadership."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1517.149,"endTime":1520.709,"body":"So you've led both large"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1517.149,"endTime":1520.709,"body":"scale engineering teams"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1520.709,"endTime":1522.799,"body":"at Google and now Vercel."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1522.799,"endTime":1525.63,"body":"And how have you seen"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1522.799,"endTime":1525.63,"body":"the relationship between"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1525.66,"endTime":1529.05,"body":"individual contributors and"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1525.66,"endTime":1529.05,"body":"managers and engineering"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1529.05,"endTime":1530.77,"body":"teams change over time?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1531.172,"endTime":1532.942,"body":"Yeah, this"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1531.172,"endTime":1532.942,"body":"is actually my, my, my"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1532.972,"endTime":1534.402,"body":"one of my pet peeves."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1534.485,"endTime":1536.615,"body":"like of all the things that"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1534.485,"endTime":1536.615,"body":"Google has done, the one thing"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1536.615,"endTime":1540.125,"body":"that it got right is that it"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1536.615,"endTime":1540.125,"body":"has like this very trivial,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1540.404,"endTime":1543.754,"body":"job letter thing where there's"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1540.404,"endTime":1543.754,"body":"an IC letter and an, and a"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1543.754,"endTime":1547.654,"body":"manager job letter and they"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1543.754,"endTime":1547.654,"body":"both have 11 levels, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1547.814,"endTime":1550.064,"body":"So you can be a senior"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1547.814,"endTime":1550.064,"body":"vice president or a"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1550.084,"endTime":1551.144,"body":"senior fellow and."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1551.479,"endTime":1552.869,"body":"And you're on the"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1551.479,"endTime":1552.869,"body":"same level, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1553.219,"endTime":1556.08,"body":"And so no one's forced"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1553.219,"endTime":1556.08,"body":"to go through the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1556.285,"endTime":1556.505,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1556.505,"endTime":1558.035,"body":"Usually it's the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1556.505,"endTime":1558.035,"body":"management track"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1558.035,"endTime":1559.195,"body":"to like grow your career."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1559.245,"endTime":1559.605,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1559.805,"endTime":1560.435,"body":"Before that."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1560.435,"endTime":1560.645,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1560.71,"endTime":1560.97,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1561.2,"endTime":1564.48,"body":"And, and like, I mean, you"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1561.2,"endTime":1564.48,"body":"know, there, that there's like"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1564.48,"endTime":1565.71,"body":"the Peter principle, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1565.72,"endTime":1568.26,"body":"Like everyone gets promoted to"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1565.72,"endTime":1568.26,"body":"the level of their incompetence,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1568.66,"endTime":1570.99,"body":"which is like, that's just"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1568.66,"endTime":1570.99,"body":"a straight up true in these"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1571.0,"endTime":1573.256,"body":"like traditional organizations"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1571.0,"endTime":1573.256,"body":"where you At some point, if"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1573.256,"endTime":1574.996,"body":"you want to advance, you have"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1573.256,"endTime":1574.996,"body":"to go into management, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1574.996,"endTime":1579.056,"body":"And so it's like one of my"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1574.996,"endTime":1579.056,"body":"absolute most core values to"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1579.086,"endTime":1583.026,"body":"have that IC track so that the"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1579.086,"endTime":1583.026,"body":"people who are on the management"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1583.026,"endTime":1584.816,"body":"side, self selected to be there."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1585.193,"endTime":1587.013,"body":"the other thing that I think"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1585.193,"endTime":1587.013,"body":"is really important is that,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1587.383,"endTime":1590.013,"body":"and I, you know, I correct"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1587.383,"endTime":1590.013,"body":"people here all the time when"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1590.013,"endTime":1592.783,"body":"they send like, so and so"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1590.013,"endTime":1592.783,"body":"got promoted to management."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1593.213,"endTime":1596.215,"body":"And I'm like, dude, That's"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1593.213,"endTime":1596.215,"body":"not a promotion because"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1596.401,"endTime":1597.831,"body":"it's a lateral transfer."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1598.261,"endTime":1603.101,"body":"Where if that turns out to be"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1598.261,"endTime":1603.101,"body":"not the good idea because this"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1603.101,"endTime":1605.901,"body":"person either hates it, or"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1603.101,"endTime":1605.901,"body":"they're just not so good at it."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1605.901,"endTime":1608.321,"body":"But like they were probably"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1605.901,"endTime":1608.321,"body":"like, we gave them this"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1608.351,"endTime":1610.621,"body":"chance because they were like"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1608.351,"endTime":1610.621,"body":"really good at their jobs."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1610.981,"endTime":1613.171,"body":"So what are the outcomes"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1610.981,"endTime":1613.171,"body":"if it was a promotion?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1613.455,"endTime":1615.885,"body":"they feel like they were like,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1613.455,"endTime":1615.885,"body":"they're now in this role and"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1615.885,"endTime":1616.825,"body":"they're kind of tied up to it."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1616.825,"endTime":1617.115,"body":"Because."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1617.87,"endTime":1620.546,"body":"I've seen it demotion and"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1617.87,"endTime":1620.546,"body":"no one does that, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1620.726,"endTime":1621.936,"body":"But it was very"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1620.726,"endTime":1621.936,"body":"clear it's lateral."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1622.216,"endTime":1624.296,"body":"Then you can say, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1622.216,"endTime":1624.296,"body":"you know, we did, we tried"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1624.546,"endTime":1626.186,"body":"for six months, this is"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1624.546,"endTime":1626.186,"body":"just, it isn't for me."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1626.426,"endTime":1629.806,"body":"I'm going to go back to my"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1626.426,"endTime":1629.806,"body":"old job and it's, it's a"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1629.826,"endTime":1630.756,"body":"lateral movement, right."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1630.756,"endTime":1634.266,"body":"And so if you, again, like"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1630.756,"endTime":1634.266,"body":"the, the, the opportunity cost"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1634.266,"endTime":1637.191,"body":"of flat blending, of having"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1634.266,"endTime":1637.191,"body":"this person stay in this job"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1637.221,"endTime":1640.342,"body":"that they hate, that they're"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1637.221,"endTime":1640.342,"body":"not good at, because they"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1640.342,"endTime":1644.855,"body":"feel that leaving that, that"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1640.342,"endTime":1644.855,"body":"role is a demotion, it means"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1644.855,"endTime":1648.105,"body":"just that you just have this"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1644.855,"endTime":1648.105,"body":"like crappy manager who also"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1648.105,"endTime":1649.895,"body":"used to be amazing at the IC"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1650.01,"endTime":1650.266,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1650.36,"endTime":1652.22,"body":"it's almost like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1650.36,"endTime":1652.22,"body":"you lost two people."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1652.7,"endTime":1652.88,"body":"You"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1652.88,"endTime":1656.64,"body":"lost the amazing IC, and"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1652.88,"endTime":1656.64,"body":"you have a bad manager now."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1656.805,"endTime":1658.425,"body":"And so that's,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1656.805,"endTime":1658.425,"body":"that's why it's really important"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1658.425,"endTime":1659.575,"body":"that it's a lateral move."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1660.105,"endTime":1662.676,"body":"And We try to practice"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1660.105,"endTime":1662.676,"body":"this at Vercel."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1662.716,"endTime":1666.846,"body":"And it's actually, so my role is"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1662.716,"endTime":1666.846,"body":"kind of specifically the, just"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1666.846,"endTime":1668.066,"body":"the highest version of this."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1668.076,"endTime":1669.846,"body":"So basically actually in our"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1670.241,"endTime":1672.021,"body":"Like your role"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1670.241,"endTime":1672.021,"body":"currently, you're saying,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1672.031,"endTime":1673.366,"body":"your role is like CTO?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1673.366,"endTime":1674.076,"body":"I'm a CTO."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1674.106,"endTime":1674.826,"body":"I am an IC."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1675.026,"endTime":1677.356,"body":"And so the way we, we are,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1675.026,"endTime":1677.356,"body":"we have it organized is"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1677.356,"endTime":1680.584,"body":"that, we have a CPO, so"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1677.356,"endTime":1680.584,"body":"Chief Product Officer,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1680.954,"endTime":1686.554,"body":"and, and they're, they have"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1680.954,"endTime":1686.554,"body":"engineering, design, and product"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1686.604,"endTime":1687.744,"body":"reporting to them, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1687.744,"endTime":1690.314,"body":"So they, and so we're basically"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1687.744,"endTime":1690.314,"body":"this like, you know, Uh,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1690.414,"endTime":1692.504,"body":"Peer, IC, Manager, Pair."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1692.864,"endTime":1696.414,"body":"And so we're trying to have,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1692.864,"endTime":1696.414,"body":"at every level, like there's"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1696.414,"endTime":1699.253,"body":"the VP of Engineering, but"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1696.414,"endTime":1699.253,"body":"there's also the, the kind"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1699.254,"endTime":1703.494,"body":"of, VP level, kind of, UberTL,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1699.254,"endTime":1703.494,"body":"whatever you want to call"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1703.494,"endTime":1707.224,"body":"this person, who's responsible"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1703.494,"endTime":1707.224,"body":"for the entire space, but"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1707.224,"endTime":1708.284,"body":"from the engineering angle."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1708.664,"endTime":1710.894,"body":"And so, like that"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1708.664,"endTime":1710.894,"body":"kind of trickling down"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1711.189,"endTime":1713.439,"body":"Yeah, just out"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1711.189,"endTime":1713.439,"body":"of curiosity, because I"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1713.449,"endTime":1716.167,"body":"haven't, You kind of got that"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1713.449,"endTime":1716.167,"body":"experience at Google and now"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1716.167,"endTime":1717.547,"body":"you're doing it at Vercel."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1717.784,"endTime":1720.974,"body":"And when you have those"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1717.784,"endTime":1720.974,"body":"equivalent lathers of like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1721.144,"endTime":1724.164,"body":"an IC, like you're saying,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1721.144,"endTime":1724.164,"body":"Hey, I'm the highest level IC"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1724.164,"endTime":1726.584,"body":"right now in a sense of CTO."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1726.584,"endTime":1729.144,"body":"And then you also have like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1726.584,"endTime":1729.144,"body":"the manager form of that."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1729.349,"endTime":1732.659,"body":"How does it work between"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1729.349,"endTime":1732.659,"body":"like a high level IC and"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1732.659,"endTime":1734.669,"body":"a high level manager?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1734.669,"endTime":1736.679,"body":"Is there any like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1734.669,"endTime":1736.679,"body":"power struggle?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1736.699,"endTime":1738.439,"body":"Is it really an equivalent?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1738.809,"endTime":1740.299,"body":"Is it non equivalent?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1740.299,"endTime":1742.709,"body":"Just understanding some"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1740.299,"endTime":1742.709,"body":"of the human dynamics."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1742.709,"endTime":1745.229,"body":"Cause I, and where it's coming"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1742.709,"endTime":1745.229,"body":"from my head, it's like,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1745.541,"endTime":1748.557,"body":"You know, hey man, I have"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1745.541,"endTime":1748.557,"body":"like, 400 people on my team."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1748.977,"endTime":1751.397,"body":"I can do what I want"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1748.977,"endTime":1751.397,"body":"with these 400 people,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1751.397,"endTime":1752.667,"body":"and you have just you."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1753.217,"endTime":1754.727,"body":"Like, are we"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1754.727,"endTime":1755.627,"body":"really equivalent?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1755.637,"endTime":1757.827,"body":"Just putting it out"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1755.637,"endTime":1757.827,"body":"there, like, how is it?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1758.432,"endTime":1760.148,"body":"No, it's a,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1758.432,"endTime":1760.148,"body":"these two people have to"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1760.148,"endTime":1761.918,"body":"be best friends, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1761.918,"endTime":1764.498,"body":"And really kind of be able"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1761.918,"endTime":1764.498,"body":"to, you know, they have to"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1764.498,"endTime":1765.578,"body":"talk to each other every day."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1765.755,"endTime":1767.105,"body":"there is one, actually,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1765.755,"endTime":1767.105,"body":"by the way, really"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1767.105,"endTime":1767.645,"body":"interesting question."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1767.645,"endTime":1770.165,"body":"'cause I've, I've definitely"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1767.645,"endTime":1770.165,"body":"seen both and, and, and I am"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1770.195,"endTime":1772.175,"body":"not particular opinionated,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1770.195,"endTime":1772.175,"body":"which is the right version,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1772.445,"endTime":1775.285,"body":"which is it could also be"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1772.445,"endTime":1775.285,"body":"that not only are they."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1775.665,"endTime":1778.095,"body":"this one person has 400 reports"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1775.665,"endTime":1778.095,"body":"and the other person zero."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1778.421,"endTime":1780.551,"body":"It can actually also work"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1778.421,"endTime":1780.551,"body":"that, that, that person"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1780.551,"endTime":1782.441,"body":"with zero reports does"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1780.551,"endTime":1782.441,"body":"report to that manager."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1782.798,"endTime":1788.741,"body":"And, my formula is, that works"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1782.798,"endTime":1788.741,"body":"if they're like the best team."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1789.261,"endTime":1792.256,"body":"And if they've worked together,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1789.261,"endTime":1792.256,"body":"for like the longest time."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1792.656,"endTime":1795.636,"body":"And so it's super natural,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1792.656,"endTime":1795.636,"body":"because then it's often better"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1795.636,"endTime":1799.02,"body":"for the IC, reporting to the"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1795.636,"endTime":1799.02,"body":"CEO, for example, it's like, you"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1799.02,"endTime":1803.01,"body":"know, maybe not what you want to"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1799.02,"endTime":1803.01,"body":"do for your career development,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1803.26,"endTime":1804.63,"body":"if you care about that, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1804.956,"endTime":1806.416,"body":"Because they have"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1804.956,"endTime":1806.416,"body":"other things to do."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1807.041,"endTime":1809.691,"body":"So it can be, it can be really"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1807.041,"endTime":1809.691,"body":"good to have them as your"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1809.691,"endTime":1811.411,"body":"manager, but that only works"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1809.691,"endTime":1811.411,"body":"if you have like a really,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1811.411,"endTime":1812.611,"body":"really deep trust relationship."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1813.101,"endTime":1816.741,"body":"If, on the other hand, you kind"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1813.101,"endTime":1816.741,"body":"of, you make this team, um, it's"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1816.741,"endTime":1818.031,"body":"better for them to be peers."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1818.151,"endTime":1820.66,"body":"So that you know, maybe someone"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1818.151,"endTime":1820.66,"body":"could still say, well, you"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1820.66,"endTime":1823.74,"body":"know, you don't tell me how to,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1820.66,"endTime":1823.74,"body":"what I do with my 400 people."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1823.963,"endTime":1825.568,"body":"I think that's something that"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1823.963,"endTime":1825.568,"body":"you can kind of, you know,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1825.768,"endTime":1829.728,"body":"Manage towards getting right and"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1825.768,"endTime":1829.728,"body":"I, I actually honestly haven't,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1829.768,"endTime":1833.821,"body":"haven't seen being too much of"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1829.768,"endTime":1833.821,"body":"an issue, but I can understand"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1833.821,"endTime":1835.711,"body":"that, you know, that you would"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1833.821,"endTime":1835.711,"body":"have that concern, but like"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1835.711,"endTime":1837.811,"body":"basically, yeah, I think it's,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1835.711,"endTime":1837.811,"body":"it's something that, that,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1837.831,"endTime":1839.561,"body":"that's absolutely manageable."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1839.881,"endTime":1840.641,"body":"no,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1839.881,"endTime":1840.641,"body":"that's really cool."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1840.641,"endTime":1841.721,"body":"Thanks for sharing that insight."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1841.721,"endTime":1844.021,"body":"Cause I think, uh, you"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1841.721,"endTime":1844.021,"body":"know, a lot of developers"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1844.021,"endTime":1845.101,"body":"have that on my mind."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1845.101,"endTime":1848.031,"body":"Like what could be my"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1845.101,"endTime":1848.031,"body":"career, progression if I"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1848.041,"endTime":1850.731,"body":"want to go the IC route"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1848.041,"endTime":1850.731,"body":"management's not for me."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1851.001,"endTime":1851.941,"body":"so that's really interesting."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1852.251,"endTime":1852.451,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1852.451,"endTime":1854.271,"body":"Let's take it over to our."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1854.991,"endTime":1857.631,"body":"Last segment, optimizing"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1854.991,"endTime":1857.631,"body":"AI applications."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1857.631,"endTime":1860.061,"body":"We might've touched on this"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1857.631,"endTime":1860.061,"body":"a little bit, but building"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1860.071,"endTime":1863.061,"body":"AI prototypes has become"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1860.071,"endTime":1863.061,"body":"much faster, but scaling"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1863.061,"endTime":1866.651,"body":"and optimizing these systems"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1863.061,"endTime":1866.651,"body":"does remain a challenge."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1866.661,"endTime":1868.991,"body":"What are some key factors"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1866.661,"endTime":1868.991,"body":"that engineering teams"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1868.991,"endTime":1872.074,"body":"need to focus on when"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1868.991,"endTime":1872.074,"body":"optimizing AI applications"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1872.074,"endTime":1874.51,"body":"for performance and cost?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1874.51,"endTime":1877.555,"body":"I think we touched on"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1877.676,"endTime":1877.956,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1877.956,"endTime":1879.856,"body":"I mean, we talked about the"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1877.956,"endTime":1879.856,"body":"streaming part, which is like"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1879.876,"endTime":1883.186,"body":"kind of like this very, like,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1879.876,"endTime":1883.186,"body":"I'm just accepting it slow and"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1883.186,"endTime":1884.216,"body":"I'll make the best out of it."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1884.466,"endTime":1887.116,"body":"but not, you know, really about,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1884.466,"endTime":1887.116,"body":"uh, about making it faster."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1887.566,"endTime":1891.056,"body":"So like one thing that actually"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1887.566,"endTime":1891.056,"body":"is a huge transformation"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1891.195,"endTime":1895.231,"body":"in the software engineering"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1891.195,"endTime":1895.231,"body":"process overall, is that when"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1895.231,"endTime":1902.351,"body":"I introduce AI to my system, I,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1895.231,"endTime":1902.351,"body":"I give up on the last kind of"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1902.361,"endTime":1904.191,"body":"hopes of deterministic software."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1904.475,"endTime":1907.565,"body":"And you could kind of argue that"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1904.475,"endTime":1907.565,"body":"I already ran out of the window"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1907.575,"endTime":1910.885,"body":"with With like distributed"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1907.575,"endTime":1910.885,"body":"systems in general, like they do"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1910.895,"endTime":1913.986,"body":"weird things, but like the way"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1910.895,"endTime":1913.986,"body":"you handle that, it's, I think,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1913.986,"endTime":1915.816,"body":"very different from an LLM."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1916.431,"endTime":1918.381,"body":"Which literally has"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1916.431,"endTime":1918.381,"body":"like a temperature"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1918.381,"endTime":1919.751,"body":"temper argument, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1919.751,"endTime":1922.951,"body":"You can't turn it off, that"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1919.751,"endTime":1922.951,"body":"it's not deterministic."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1922.971,"endTime":1926.311,"body":"You give it the same input and"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1922.971,"endTime":1926.311,"body":"something else comes out, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1926.497,"endTime":1929.267,"body":"And so all these like things,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1926.497,"endTime":1929.267,"body":"how we release software,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1929.267,"endTime":1931.687,"body":"how we, how we do testing,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1929.267,"endTime":1931.687,"body":"they just don't work."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1932.267,"endTime":1933.952,"body":"Because you can't, you can't"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1932.267,"endTime":1933.952,"body":"make assertions, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1933.952,"endTime":1936.467,"body":"You can't say this thing"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1933.952,"endTime":1936.467,"body":"in, that thing out."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1936.547,"endTime":1937.417,"body":"That just doesn't work."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1938.147,"endTime":1941.047,"body":"And so what we're definitely"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1938.147,"endTime":1941.047,"body":"seeing, and this is like"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1941.047,"endTime":1943.297,"body":"literally on my own team,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1941.047,"endTime":1943.297,"body":"like a transformation that we."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1943.702,"endTime":1946.112,"body":"That we're going through"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1943.702,"endTime":1946.112,"body":"and I was afraid about it,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1946.112,"endTime":1948.552,"body":"but seems to be going better"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1946.112,"endTime":1948.552,"body":"than I thought it would."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1949.102,"endTime":1952.292,"body":"Is that this notion of"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1949.102,"endTime":1952.292,"body":"the eval comes into the"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1952.422,"endTime":1953.552,"body":"software development process."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1954.052,"endTime":1959.432,"body":"So an eval is like a test,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1954.052,"endTime":1959.432,"body":"but more fuzzy, basically."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1959.66,"endTime":1962.28,"body":"And, like, this is actually"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1959.66,"endTime":1962.28,"body":"also interesting, like, because"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1962.28,"endTime":1964.19,"body":"I come from Google where"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1962.28,"endTime":1964.19,"body":"that's like normal, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1964.19,"endTime":1967.69,"body":"Like the, like Google, you"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1964.19,"endTime":1967.69,"body":"make a search ranking change."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1968.37,"endTime":1969.93,"body":"You can't run a test suit."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1970.274,"endTime":1973.374,"body":"because there's like the"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1970.274,"endTime":1973.374,"body":"input space is like so big."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1973.824,"endTime":1978.184,"body":"And so what happens instead"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1973.824,"endTime":1978.184,"body":"is you have maybe your hundred"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1978.264,"endTime":1981.52,"body":"or thousand most important"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1978.264,"endTime":1981.52,"body":"queries and another thousand"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1981.53,"endTime":1984.939,"body":"random queries, and you"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1981.53,"endTime":1984.939,"body":"literally Screenshot them"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1984.959,"endTime":1987.829,"body":"the results and give them"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1984.959,"endTime":1987.829,"body":"to people to rate, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1988.179,"endTime":1991.269,"body":"Before, after, and because"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1988.179,"endTime":1991.269,"body":"something probably would have"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1991.269,"endTime":1992.929,"body":"gotten worse and something"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1991.269,"endTime":1992.929,"body":"gotten better, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1992.929,"endTime":1994.309,"body":"It's not a black"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1992.929,"endTime":1994.309,"body":"and white thing."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1994.673,"endTime":1997.143,"body":"and so that's the process I"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1994.673,"endTime":1997.143,"body":"was used to, but no one else"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1997.743,"endTime":2000.643,"body":"because I also was really slow,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":1997.743,"endTime":2000.643,"body":"would develop software like that"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2000.643,"endTime":2002.853,"body":"because normal software you can"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2000.643,"endTime":2002.853,"body":"automate tasks, you can have"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2002.853,"endTime":2003.773,"body":"Yeah, you, you have"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2003.773,"endTime":2005.523,"body":"your suite, and it's not like"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2005.923,"endTime":2006.183,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2006.512,"endTime":2007.242,"body":"and now."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2007.597,"endTime":2009.637,"body":"So this process kind of"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2007.597,"endTime":2009.637,"body":"comes to everyone and there,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2009.687,"endTime":2012.027,"body":"you know, we, we use a"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2009.687,"endTime":2012.027,"body":"software called BrainTrust,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2012.269,"endTime":2013.539,"body":"to help us do these evals."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2013.829,"endTime":2016.169,"body":"And what's really interesting,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2013.829,"endTime":2016.169,"body":"and that's certainly different"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2016.179,"endTime":2018.959,"body":"from how this used to work at"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2016.179,"endTime":2018.959,"body":"Google, is that AI can help"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2018.959,"endTime":2021.197,"body":"you with this thing, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2021.197,"endTime":2023.617,"body":"so what you do in practice,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2021.197,"endTime":2023.617,"body":"and again, this is not"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2023.617,"endTime":2026.737,"body":"for like the small AI app,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2023.617,"endTime":2026.737,"body":"it's for the big AI app."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2026.877,"endTime":2027.097,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2027.097,"endTime":2030.008,"body":"But there you change your prompt"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2027.097,"endTime":2030.008,"body":"and you want to know, was it"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2030.008,"endTime":2030.958,"body":"a good change or a bad change?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2031.118,"endTime":2034.529,"body":"So you have, let's say, a"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2031.118,"endTime":2034.529,"body":"hundred inputs and then you run"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2034.529,"endTime":2039.797,"body":"it through your new system and"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2034.529,"endTime":2039.797,"body":"you now let a different AI rate"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2039.986,"endTime":2041.606,"body":"whether it got better or worse."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2041.861,"endTime":2044.877,"body":"And this is particularly"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2041.861,"endTime":2044.877,"body":"interesting if you probably like"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2044.877,"endTime":2049.098,"body":"you are optimized, you optimized"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2044.877,"endTime":2049.098,"body":"your, your, productionized your"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2049.378,"endTime":2054.018,"body":"AI to be efficient and maybe not"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2049.378,"endTime":2054.018,"body":"the hottest latest model that,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2054.028,"endTime":2057.428,"body":"cause that's too expensive,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2054.028,"endTime":2057.428,"body":"but it's probably okay to use"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2057.568,"endTime":2060.028,"body":"a very smart reasoning model."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2060.563,"endTime":2063.853,"body":"For the eval side to just"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2060.563,"endTime":2063.853,"body":"judge if the output is good."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2064.189,"endTime":2066.649,"body":"And so that kind of gets"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2064.189,"endTime":2066.649,"body":"you kind of to that process."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2066.969,"endTime":2069.569,"body":"That's, that's fully"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2066.969,"endTime":2069.569,"body":"automated, but it's very"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2069.589,"endTime":2072.189,"body":"probably do a"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2069.589,"endTime":2072.189,"body":"whole podcast on just that"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2072.189,"endTime":2072.689,"body":"topic."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2072.729,"endTime":2073.539,"body":"This is like AI"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2073.859,"endTime":2074.329,"body":"exactly."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2074.349,"endTime":2074.969,"body":"So this is like,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2075.154,"endTime":2076.424,"body":"it's kind of a comfort"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2075.154,"endTime":2076.424,"body":"zone thing, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2076.544,"endTime":2078.014,"body":"Cause you're really in a,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2076.544,"endTime":2078.014,"body":"in a different world now."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2078.294,"endTime":2081.379,"body":"But yeah, once you have that"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2078.294,"endTime":2081.379,"body":"set up, you can think about,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2081.609,"endTime":2082.499,"body":"I was already mentioning."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2082.734,"endTime":2085.984,"body":"let's go from, like, we"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2082.734,"endTime":2085.984,"body":"have this like working in"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2085.984,"endTime":2089.634,"body":"the, you know, GPT 4 class"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2085.984,"endTime":2089.634,"body":"Frontier model, but it's"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2089.634,"endTime":2091.744,"body":"costing us 5 cents a pop."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2091.832,"endTime":2097.392,"body":"how about we lower the cost by"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2091.832,"endTime":2097.392,"body":"a hundred X by going down to,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2097.472,"endTime":2100.662,"body":"and now, now, I mean, in a way"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2097.472,"endTime":2100.662,"body":"OpenAI is the weakest here, but"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2100.692,"endTime":2103.642,"body":"like all the major providers"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2100.692,"endTime":2103.642,"body":"have like the stack of models."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2103.682,"endTime":2106.542,"body":"They're kind of similar, but"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2103.682,"endTime":2106.542,"body":"they're, um, the different in"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2106.542,"endTime":2109.592,"body":"size, the and they're certainly"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2106.542,"endTime":2109.592,"body":"different and the smaller"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2109.592,"endTime":2110.932,"body":"ones are faster and cheaper."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2111.199,"endTime":2114.309,"body":"and so you say like, how can I"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2111.199,"endTime":2114.309,"body":"get something to evolve as well"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2115.039,"endTime":2117.549,"body":"in the simpler model, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2117.859,"endTime":2119.509,"body":"And so that's why it's"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2117.859,"endTime":2119.509,"body":"so important to have a"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2119.509,"endTime":2121.799,"body":"good way of evaluating"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2119.509,"endTime":2121.799,"body":"whether how good you are."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2122.354,"endTime":2125.134,"body":"Um, so that you can like be"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2122.354,"endTime":2125.134,"body":"aggressive about making these"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2125.134,"endTime":2127.804,"body":"changes where you say, okay,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2125.134,"endTime":2127.804,"body":"I optimized my prompt so"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2127.804,"endTime":2132.001,"body":"much or I fine tuned in a way"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2127.804,"endTime":2132.001,"body":"that the cheaper model can"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2132.001,"endTime":2134.931,"body":"do what the bigger model did"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2132.001,"endTime":2134.931,"body":"for like my domain, because"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2134.931,"endTime":2136.051,"body":"it's not the whole world."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2136.051,"endTime":2136.791,"body":"It's just my domain."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2137.391,"endTime":2140.311,"body":"And again, like you need these"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2137.391,"endTime":2140.311,"body":"eval flows in there so that"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2140.311,"endTime":2143.011,"body":"you can actually make those"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2140.311,"endTime":2143.011,"body":"decisions in a way that, you"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2143.011,"endTime":2146.166,"body":"know, doesn't evolve, yourself"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2143.011,"endTime":2146.166,"body":"going through a hundred use"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2146.166,"endTime":2148.448,"body":"cases and being, human about"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2146.166,"endTime":2148.448,"body":"it and making mistakes."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2148.829,"endTime":2150.369,"body":"That's,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2148.829,"endTime":2150.369,"body":"that's really cool, man."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2150.599,"endTime":2153.819,"body":"As we wrap up here, kind of"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2150.599,"endTime":2153.819,"body":"a final question, a little"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2153.819,"endTime":2157.359,"body":"more of a general question,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2153.819,"endTime":2157.359,"body":"but, you know, being a CTO,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2157.379,"endTime":2158.999,"body":"highly successful company."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2159.255,"endTime":2162.795,"body":"what advice would you have"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2159.255,"endTime":2162.795,"body":"for either other, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2162.805,"endTime":2164.995,"body":"CTOs or engineering leaders?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2164.995,"endTime":2168.695,"body":"Like, what's top of mind for"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2164.995,"endTime":2168.695,"body":"you today in today's world?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2168.725,"endTime":2172.062,"body":"We talked about AI, what,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2168.725,"endTime":2172.062,"body":"what are the things that are"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2172.062,"endTime":2176.194,"body":"like Most top of mind for you"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2172.062,"endTime":2176.194,"body":"as you think about, being in"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2176.194,"endTime":2179.094,"body":"what other CTOs and leaders"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2176.194,"endTime":2179.094,"body":"should be thinking about."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2179.408,"endTime":2181.708,"body":"I mentioned earlier"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2179.408,"endTime":2181.708,"body":"how we went through this"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2181.718,"endTime":2187.618,"body":"process of kind of finding us"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2181.718,"endTime":2187.618,"body":"in the disrupted world, right?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2187.618,"endTime":2190.548,"body":"Like what's Vercel's"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2187.618,"endTime":2190.548,"body":"role in this space?"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2190.918,"endTime":2193.098,"body":"And again, like we found"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2190.918,"endTime":2193.098,"body":"these solutions which are"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2193.274,"endTime":2194.724,"body":"they're native to our company."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2195.354,"endTime":2198.729,"body":"And I think that This is"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2195.354,"endTime":2198.729,"body":"a really good exercise for"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2198.729,"endTime":2200.249,"body":"everyone to walk through."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2201.075,"endTime":2205.0,"body":"I feel that while we have"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2201.075,"endTime":2205.0,"body":"these like universal assistants"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2205.0,"endTime":2208.963,"body":"now that are really useful,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2205.0,"endTime":2208.963,"body":"it's also like become really"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2209.013,"endTime":2214.572,"body":"clear that domain specific"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2209.013,"endTime":2214.572,"body":"stuff is actually continues"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2214.572,"endTime":2216.162,"body":"to be extraordinarily useful."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2216.491,"endTime":2219.861,"body":"and so there is this space"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2216.491,"endTime":2219.861,"body":"for everyone in this future,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2220.081,"endTime":2220.951,"body":"but you have to find it."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2221.051,"endTime":2221.261,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2221.261,"endTime":2224.171,"body":"And so I think it's like, it's a"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2221.261,"endTime":2224.171,"body":"really good line of thinking of"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2224.171,"endTime":2228.719,"body":"like, what is like my company's"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2224.171,"endTime":2228.719,"body":"spot in this, in this world."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2228.885,"endTime":2230.995,"body":"and hopefully everyone"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2228.885,"endTime":2230.995,"body":"can find an answer."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2231.115,"endTime":2232.855,"body":"Um, but if you do,"},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2231.115,"endTime":2232.855,"body":"it's really exciting."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2233.655,"endTime":2234.335,"body":"Awesome, man."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2234.335,"endTime":2238.342,"body":"Well, Malta, thanks so much"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2234.335,"endTime":2238.342,"body":"for coming on and sharing"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2238.542,"endTime":2239.512,"body":"all of your insights."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2239.522,"endTime":2241.362,"body":"It's been great having"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2239.522,"endTime":2241.362,"body":"you on the show today."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2241.624,"endTime":2241.904,"body":"Awesome."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2241.904,"endTime":2242.514,"body":"Thanks for having me."},{"speaker":"Malte Ubl","startTime":2242.514,"endTime":2243.234,"body":"So, so much fun."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2244.369,"endTime":2246.759,"body":"on these topics,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2244.369,"endTime":2246.759,"body":"be sure to check out"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2246.759,"endTime":2250.059,"body":"Vercel's latest work, and"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2246.759,"endTime":2250.059,"body":"I'm sure we'll attach it."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2250.156,"endTime":2251.652,"body":"to the show, notes."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2252.242,"endTime":2255.409,"body":"And as always, thanks tuning"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2252.242,"endTime":2255.409,"body":"in to Dev Interrupted."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2255.419,"endTime":2258.759,"body":"Be sure to subscribe to our"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2255.419,"endTime":2258.759,"body":"newsletter on Substack for"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2258.759,"endTime":2264.079,"body":"deeper dives into the topics we"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2258.759,"endTime":2264.079,"body":"discussed today and everyone."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2264.079,"endTime":2265.499,"body":"See you all next time."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2265.509,"endTime":2265.979,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2265.989,"endTime":2266.009,"body":"All"}]}