{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":0.201,"endTime":0.721,"body":"Hey, everyone."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":0.851,"endTime":4.031,"body":"I'm your host, Ben Lloyd Pearson,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":0.851,"endTime":4.031,"body":"Director of Developer Experience"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":4.081,"endTime":7.961,"body":"at LinearB, and today I'm delighted"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":4.081,"endTime":7.961,"body":"to be joined by Birgitta Boeckeler,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":8.441,"endTime":12.251,"body":"she's the Global Lead for AI Assisted"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":8.441,"endTime":12.251,"body":"Software Delivery at ThoughtWorks."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":12.341,"endTime":14.501,"body":"Birgitta, thank you so"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":12.341,"endTime":14.501,"body":"much for joining me today."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":16.6,"endTime":17.36,"body":"Thanks for having me."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":17.36,"endTime":17.79,"body":"Hi, Ben."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":18.041,"endTime":20.931,"body":"So, We're going"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":18.041,"endTime":20.931,"body":"to spend a lot of time talking"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":20.931,"endTime":24.901,"body":"about agentic AI today, because,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":20.931,"endTime":24.901,"body":"you know, it's, it's been a big part"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":24.901,"endTime":26.831,"body":"of your research in recent months."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":27.151,"endTime":30.871,"body":"Um, and one of the things that I sort"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":27.151,"endTime":30.871,"body":"of stumbled upon while I was, uh, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":30.871,"endTime":33.911,"body":"know, learning about some of the work"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":30.871,"endTime":33.911,"body":"you've been doing is some of these,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":34.011,"endTime":38.151,"body":"these articles or memos, as you've been"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":34.011,"endTime":38.151,"body":"calling them, that you've been publishing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":38.231,"endTime":40.211,"body":"over on Martin Fowler's website."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":41.366,"endTime":45.456,"body":"And I've seen like, it looks like a series"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":41.366,"endTime":45.456,"body":"of experiments that you've been doing to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":45.486,"endTime":48.556,"body":"test out some of the cutting edge of AI."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":48.556,"endTime":51.596,"body":"So maybe let's just start there."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":51.596,"endTime":54.256,"body":"Like, tell me about like what's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":51.596,"endTime":54.256,"body":"going on there and like the types"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":54.256,"endTime":57.446,"body":"of experiments that you're doing and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":54.256,"endTime":57.446,"body":"what you're finding out from them."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":59.23,"endTime":62.7,"body":"Yeah, I would"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":59.23,"endTime":62.7,"body":"say, I mean, first of all, like I'm,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":62.72,"endTime":65.06,"body":"so I'm a developer by trade, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":65.42,"endTime":67.85,"body":"Developer, architect, you"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":65.42,"endTime":67.85,"body":"know, practitioner, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":68.2,"endTime":72.27,"body":"So, um, I'm not an AI or"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":68.2,"endTime":72.27,"body":"machine learning expert."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":72.27,"endTime":75.47,"body":"And the way that I see my"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":72.27,"endTime":75.47,"body":"role at the moment is that"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":75.48,"endTime":80.15,"body":"I'm a domain expert 20 years."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":80.15,"endTime":85.17,"body":"And, you know, and it's not just like,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":80.15,"endTime":85.17,"body":"uh, Coding, but it's also like effective"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":85.17,"endTime":86.66,"body":"teamwork and stuff like that, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":86.99,"endTime":90.3,"body":"And so that I see as my domain"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":86.99,"endTime":90.3,"body":"expertise, and now I'm trying to"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":90.3,"endTime":92.26,"body":"apply AI to that domain, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":92.26,"endTime":97.78,"body":"So how can we use AI to, um, uh, to be"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":92.26,"endTime":97.78,"body":"better at coding, to be better at software"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":97.78,"endTime":99.6,"body":"delivery, teamwork, and so on, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":99.92,"endTime":104.28,"body":"So, and, but of course to do that, I"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":99.92,"endTime":104.28,"body":"have to understand the technology below"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":104.28,"endTime":107.07,"body":"the hood, like to a certain extent, to"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":104.28,"endTime":107.07,"body":"understand what are the possibilities"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":107.07,"endTime":110.48,"body":"and understand if a tool is claiming"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":107.07,"endTime":110.48,"body":"a certain thing that it can do, you"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":110.48,"endTime":112.4,"body":"know, do I think that's like viable?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":112.4,"endTime":113.93,"body":"Like, do I want to try that or not?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":113.94,"endTime":115.85,"body":"Like, or where do I see this going?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":115.85,"endTime":117.0,"body":"Where do I see this potential?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":117.02,"endTime":117.25,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":117.25,"endTime":120.88,"body":"And that's why one of the things I was"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":117.25,"endTime":120.88,"body":"trying, of course, like one of the hot"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":120.89,"endTime":126.06,"body":"topics right now is like, how do you"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":120.89,"endTime":126.06,"body":"use agents or like agentic applications?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":126.455,"endTime":128.685,"body":"To help with software"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":126.455,"endTime":128.685,"body":"delivery as well, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":128.685,"endTime":131.135,"body":"So that was something I was"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":128.685,"endTime":131.135,"body":"trying, but also a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":131.135,"endTime":132.165,"body":"things that I'm trying is."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":132.73,"endTime":137.27,"body":"Not even me, myself, trying to build a"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":132.73,"endTime":137.27,"body":"tool, but just trying to use the tools"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":137.28,"endTime":141.24,"body":"out there and seeing if I can come"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":137.28,"endTime":141.24,"body":"up with an example where it's like a,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":141.94,"endTime":146.77,"body":"uh, as realistic as possible workflow"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":141.94,"endTime":146.77,"body":"that I would usually see on a team."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":147.18,"endTime":149.81,"body":"And just like try to stitch those"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":147.18,"endTime":149.81,"body":"things together and see if it"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":149.81,"endTime":150.94,"body":"actually gives me value, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":150.94,"endTime":155.63,"body":"So another one of the things that I wrote"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":150.94,"endTime":155.63,"body":"about was I used like an issue in like"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":155.63,"endTime":160.205,"body":"an Open source tool that that's actually"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":155.63,"endTime":160.205,"body":"like a business application like tool."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":160.205,"endTime":161.585,"body":"And it's like very old code base."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":161.595,"endTime":163.515,"body":"So you could call it a legacy code base."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":163.515,"endTime":163.785,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":164.155,"endTime":169.545,"body":"And I was trying to see, okay, how"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":164.155,"endTime":169.545,"body":"would I usually, uh, try to find out"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":169.545,"endTime":173.335,"body":"how to implement this issue, this ticket"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":169.545,"endTime":173.335,"body":"and can AI help me with that, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":173.79,"endTime":176.88,"body":"Um, so that's kind of like"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":173.79,"endTime":176.88,"body":"the, um, the stuff I'm doing."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":176.88,"endTime":179.21,"body":"So I'm experimenting, but"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":176.88,"endTime":179.21,"body":"I'm also talking to our team."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":179.21,"endTime":181.5,"body":"So I work for a consultancy, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":181.5,"endTime":184.65,"body":"So we have teams in a lot of different"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":181.5,"endTime":184.65,"body":"domains and a lot of different situations,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":184.651,"endTime":186.15,"body":"a lot of different tech stacks."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":186.49,"endTime":189.01,"body":"So I talk to them and you"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":186.49,"endTime":189.01,"body":"know, what, what are you using?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":189.01,"endTime":190.3,"body":"What's working, what's not working."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":190.3,"endTime":192.21,"body":"Then I try things, I tell them about it."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":192.24,"endTime":193.14,"body":"I talk to our clients."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":193.15,"endTime":195.05,"body":"So that's kind of like my role right now."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":195.05,"endTime":195.85,"body":"It's a lot of."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":196.075,"endTime":196.855,"body":"Different things."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":196.875,"endTime":201.685,"body":"And the, the fire hose of AI,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":196.875,"endTime":201.685,"body":"like of change in the space"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":201.685,"endTime":202.715,"body":"is actually still going."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":202.715,"endTime":205.825,"body":"So even with the full time role,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":202.715,"endTime":205.825,"body":"it's very hard to keep on top"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":205.825,"endTime":206.545,"body":"of everything."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":207.165,"endTime":209.525,"body":"So nobody has to feel bad"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":207.165,"endTime":209.525,"body":"when they feel overwhelmed by"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":209.541,"endTime":209.811,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":209.811,"endTime":212.001,"body":"And I love the approach of,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":209.811,"endTime":212.001,"body":"you know, you mentioned how"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":212.001,"endTime":214.771,"body":"you're, you're sort of focused on"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":212.001,"endTime":214.771,"body":"figuring out what's viable, right."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":214.771,"endTime":216.101,"body":"And in this day and age,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":216.101,"endTime":219.041,"body":"because, you know, I think we"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":216.101,"endTime":219.041,"body":"talked to a lot of companies right"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":219.041,"endTime":222.561,"body":"now that are just, they're like, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":219.041,"endTime":222.561,"body":"don't really know that anyone has"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":222.561,"endTime":224.751,"body":"figured out how to adopt gen AI yet."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":224.751,"endTime":227.521,"body":"They're all like, everyone is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":224.751,"endTime":227.521,"body":"experimenting at this point and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":227.521,"endTime":231.011,"body":"trying to just learn, like, what are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":227.521,"endTime":231.011,"body":"the tools that actually work today?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":231.031,"endTime":233.531,"body":"How can we implement"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":231.031,"endTime":233.531,"body":"them in an organization?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":233.871,"endTime":237.619,"body":"Uh, and I love the, you know, sort of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":233.871,"endTime":237.619,"body":"the legacy So, uh, that's a really good"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":237.619,"endTime":240.921,"body":"use case that you brought up because"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":237.619,"endTime":240.921,"body":"that actually is one that I think has"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":241.051,"endTime":242.621,"body":"potentially a lot of promise, right?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":242.741,"endTime":243.551,"body":"But also a lot"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":243.551,"endTime":248.871,"body":"of interest because, uh, uh, there's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":243.551,"endTime":248.871,"body":"just a really high demand for, for"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":248.871,"endTime":250.261,"body":"something that can help manage that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":250.271,"endTime":254.131,"body":"So, um, so yeah, so what,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":250.271,"endTime":254.131,"body":"what have you like learned?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":254.261,"endTime":256.901,"body":"Like maybe do you want to dig"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":254.261,"endTime":256.901,"body":"into that one a little bit?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":256.901,"endTime":261.141,"body":"Like what did you learn about, uh,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":256.901,"endTime":261.141,"body":"as you were exploring generative"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":261.142,"endTime":262.691,"body":"AI for like a legacy system?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":262.751,"endTime":263.941,"body":"What did you uncover from that?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":265.995,"endTime":270.275,"body":"yeah, so, um, this"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":265.995,"endTime":270.275,"body":"memo that I wrote basically, so what"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":270.275,"endTime":275.165,"body":"I, what's always a challenge in this"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":270.275,"endTime":275.165,"body":"space is like, when I, as long as I'm"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":275.165,"endTime":276.985,"body":"not on a team, I need examples, right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":276.985,"endTime":279.995,"body":"And I need examples that are"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":276.985,"endTime":279.995,"body":"as realistic as possible."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":279.995,"endTime":280.265,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":280.595,"endTime":285.775,"body":"And, um, so we have a team in ThoughtWorks"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":280.595,"endTime":285.775,"body":"that like, we've had this for years as"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":285.775,"endTime":287.795,"body":"working on an application called Bahmni."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":288.025,"endTime":291.265,"body":"Which sits on top of an open source"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":288.025,"endTime":291.265,"body":"application called OpenMRS and"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":291.265,"endTime":292.925,"body":"Bahmni is open source as well."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":293.215,"endTime":297.295,"body":"And it's like a hospital medical"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":293.215,"endTime":297.295,"body":"record system, uh, open source."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":297.315,"endTime":302.135,"body":"So, uh, this is used in, uh, um, in"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":297.315,"endTime":302.135,"body":"countries a lot, or in, in hospitals"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":302.135,"endTime":306.305,"body":"that can't afford to buy like expensive,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":302.135,"endTime":306.305,"body":"uh, Medical record systems and so on."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":306.305,"endTime":306.525,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":306.865,"endTime":310.125,"body":"So this is like a much more realistic"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":306.865,"endTime":310.125,"body":"example for me, for my use case,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":310.125,"endTime":311.515,"body":"because it's a business application."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":311.515,"endTime":313.865,"body":"So it's not like a Python"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":311.515,"endTime":313.865,"body":"library or something like that."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":313.865,"endTime":314.125,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":314.375,"endTime":318.285,"body":"Because what I'm interested in, like,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":314.375,"endTime":318.285,"body":"um, for our clients is like, how does"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":318.285,"endTime":322.505,"body":"this work for a team building, uh,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":318.285,"endTime":322.505,"body":"uh, an actual application, right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":322.515,"endTime":323.895,"body":"Not for like a library or something."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":324.265,"endTime":325.655,"body":"So I use that as an example."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":325.655,"endTime":330.415,"body":"And what's, uh, Jira tickets,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":325.655,"endTime":330.415,"body":"their Confluence documentation,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":330.415,"endTime":332.36,"body":"everything is, Public and open, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":332.36,"endTime":335.82,"body":"So I also don't have to worry about"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":332.36,"endTime":335.82,"body":"data confidentiality and I'm not"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":335.82,"endTime":337.2,"body":"familiar with this application."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":337.23,"endTime":340.56,"body":"So I'm actually a user exactly"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":337.23,"endTime":340.56,"body":"in that use case, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":340.81,"endTime":345.19,"body":"So I'm, um, there's like an, an"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":340.81,"endTime":345.19,"body":"application that has gone through, like,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":345.19,"endTime":349.14,"body":"I don't know how many Java versions, I"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":345.19,"endTime":349.14,"body":"don't know how many different developers,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":349.14,"endTime":350.78,"body":"you know, and different approaches, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":351.14,"endTime":355.15,"body":"Um, and I'm new to this application"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":351.14,"endTime":355.15,"body":"and there's a ticket, uh, and I need"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":355.15,"endTime":356.94,"body":"to figure out how to implement it."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":356.97,"endTime":358.35,"body":"And I don't know the domain."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":358.545,"endTime":359.565,"body":"The domain terms, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":359.565,"endTime":364.295,"body":"So it was mentioning things"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":359.565,"endTime":364.295,"body":"like HI types and FHIR."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":364.295,"endTime":365.525,"body":"So all things that I didn't know."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":365.535,"endTime":365.795,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":366.035,"endTime":369.045,"body":"And I wanted to see, of course I can"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":366.035,"endTime":369.045,"body":"search their wiki for this, but can"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":369.045,"endTime":373.625,"body":"I also ask the code base if it can"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":369.045,"endTime":373.625,"body":"explain these things to me in, um,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":373.955,"endTime":377.365,"body":"together with like what an AI model,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":373.955,"endTime":377.365,"body":"a large language model would know."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":377.78,"endTime":378.9,"body":"About these things, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":379.28,"endTime":384.0,"body":"So, um, I used a bunch of like different"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":379.28,"endTime":384.0,"body":"tools to like actually ask the code"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":384.02,"endTime":386.19,"body":"base like, or based on the code base."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":386.23,"endTime":391.28,"body":"Um, and, uh, actually, you know, um,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":386.23,"endTime":391.28,"body":"it actually helped me, uh, explain some"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":391.28,"endTime":395.79,"body":"of the domain terms and also what it's"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":391.28,"endTime":395.79,"body":"quite useful for is it's like a new form"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":395.79,"endTime":397.55,"body":"of more powerful code search, right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":397.55,"endTime":398.57,"body":"Where I can go beyond."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":398.965,"endTime":402.725,"body":"Just searching for a string in the"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":398.965,"endTime":402.725,"body":"code, but I can actually ask for"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":402.765,"endTime":404.435,"body":"concepts or feature descriptions."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":404.825,"endTime":409.015,"body":"And in some cases, I think maybe I would"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":404.825,"endTime":409.015,"body":"get the same result as a string search,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":409.365,"endTime":410.895,"body":"if it's like a very specific term."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":411.285,"endTime":415.485,"body":"But, um, I can now ask like, where"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":411.285,"endTime":415.485,"body":"is the, you know, where is, where"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":415.485,"endTime":417.535,"body":"do we have a list of HI types?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":417.535,"endTime":419.695,"body":"These were like health information"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":417.535,"endTime":419.695,"body":"types or something, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":419.965,"endTime":423.215,"body":"And it was actually pointing me to like"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":419.965,"endTime":423.215,"body":"an enumeration or something like that."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":423.215,"endTime":425.135,"body":"So I could, could find"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":423.215,"endTime":425.135,"body":"those types of things."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":425.635,"endTime":431.27,"body":"Um, So that works, that has a lot of"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":425.635,"endTime":431.27,"body":"promise, I think, like it wasn't a"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":431.27,"endTime":436.93,"body":"perfect, but I also know that technically"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":431.27,"endTime":436.93,"body":"there's still a lot of potential how"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":436.93,"endTime":438.42,"body":"to make these searches better, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":438.73,"endTime":442.14,"body":"Like some of my colleagues, for example,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":438.73,"endTime":442.14,"body":"are working with clients on loading"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":442.14,"endTime":447.63,"body":"code bases, abstract syntax trees into"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":442.14,"endTime":447.63,"body":"knowledge graphs, and then enriching them"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":447.66,"endTime":451.3,"body":"and in this way, making the retrieval"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":447.66,"endTime":451.3,"body":"augmented generation that is doing"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":451.3,"endTime":453.51,"body":"the code search even better, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":453.51,"endTime":454.83,"body":"So I know there's a path."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":455.275,"endTime":459.405,"body":"I can see a technical path, how"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":455.275,"endTime":459.405,"body":"these things can get better, but then"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":459.405,"endTime":460.945,"body":"there are other parts of this, like."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":463.63,"endTime":466.51,"body":"Journey, when I have a code"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":463.63,"endTime":466.51,"body":"base that I don't know, and"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":466.51,"endTime":468.49,"body":"I need to implement a ticket."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":468.49,"endTime":468.76,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":469.09,"endTime":472.8,"body":"So now I found the place where it's"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":469.09,"endTime":472.8,"body":"supposed to be implemented, but now I"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":472.8,"endTime":477.36,"body":"have to reproduce the current behavior"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":472.8,"endTime":477.36,"body":"so I can implement the new behavior."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":477.36,"endTime":477.65,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":477.65,"endTime":480.57,"body":"And for that, usually I would have"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":477.65,"endTime":480.57,"body":"to do things like either run the"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":480.58,"endTime":484.55,"body":"application and kind of like find the"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":480.58,"endTime":484.55,"body":"click path to where I need to do this."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":484.56,"endTime":487.96,"body":"Or, uh, maybe, maybe it's"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":484.56,"endTime":487.96,"body":"about an HTTP endpoint."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":487.96,"endTime":488.55,"body":"So I."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":488.885,"endTime":492.685,"body":"Uh, I want to run that and try it"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":488.885,"endTime":492.685,"body":"out, or I want to write a test or I"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":492.685,"endTime":495.125,"body":"want to find the right test to change."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":495.155,"endTime":495.535,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":496.005,"endTime":497.715,"body":"And this is where it got a lot trickier."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":498.585,"endTime":500.795,"body":"So in this case, this"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":498.585,"endTime":500.795,"body":"is a very old code base."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":500.805,"endTime":502.145,"body":"So this was Java 8."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":502.365,"endTime":504.915,"body":"This was still using, um, Vagrant."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":505.075,"endTime":506.735,"body":"I don't know if anybody remembers that."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":506.735,"endTime":510.315,"body":"I think it's not that long ago"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":506.735,"endTime":510.315,"body":"that we used Vagrant, but a lot of"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":510.315,"endTime":512.985,"body":"maybe younger developers to know"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":510.315,"endTime":512.985,"body":"today wouldn't even know that."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":513.315,"endTime":517.435,"body":"So it's still like, AI"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":513.315,"endTime":517.435,"body":"can only help me there."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":517.795,"endTime":519.035,"body":"Only so far, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":519.055,"endTime":522.545,"body":"And like a complex combination"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":519.055,"endTime":522.545,"body":"of different old technologies."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":522.575,"endTime":526.155,"body":"And, uh, so I would still have"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":522.575,"endTime":526.155,"body":"to rely on the documentation."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":526.215,"endTime":530.775,"body":"Um, you know, maybe AI can help"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":526.215,"endTime":530.775,"body":"me debug some things, but I didn't"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":530.775,"endTime":533.745,"body":"quite go down that rabbit hole,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":530.775,"endTime":533.745,"body":"but it was like a realization I had"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":533.745,"endTime":539.125,"body":"that was like, Oh, you know, like"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":533.745,"endTime":539.125,"body":"even running like older code bases."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":539.435,"endTime":541.435,"body":"Isn't that straightforward, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":541.465,"endTime":544.895,"body":"And there are other problems there and"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":541.465,"endTime":544.895,"body":"setting up my machine and so on that"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":545.415,"endTime":547.145,"body":"maybe AI is more in the way than helping"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":547.246,"endTime":547.606,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":548.345,"endTime":548.955,"body":"And then,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":549.276,"endTime":549.886,"body":"yeah, no, go ahead."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":549.946,"endTime":550.206,"body":"Go ahead."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":553.015,"endTime":556.415,"body":"and then the,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":553.015,"endTime":556.415,"body":"the next problem I ran into was"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":556.425,"endTime":559.245,"body":"this like, uh, test problem, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":559.535,"endTime":565.095,"body":"So, um, for this particular part of the"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":559.535,"endTime":565.095,"body":"code base, there actually was no test yet."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":565.345,"endTime":569.675,"body":"So this is also quite common in these"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":565.345,"endTime":569.675,"body":"older code bases, or I hear from clients"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":569.695,"endTime":572.855,"body":"that, Oh, we have this old code base"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":569.695,"endTime":572.855,"body":"that doesn't have any unit tests."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":573.085,"endTime":576.735,"body":"Can we just add tests to it now"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":573.085,"endTime":576.735,"body":"with AI so it's safer for us to"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":576.735,"endTime":578.185,"body":"change this when we have to, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":578.735,"endTime":582.355,"body":"And so in this case, I did not"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":578.735,"endTime":582.355,"body":"have an existing unit test."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":582.665,"endTime":586.975,"body":"So the problem I ran into was that"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":582.665,"endTime":586.975,"body":"the code wasn't very testable,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":587.835,"endTime":589.385,"body":"very unit testable, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":589.745,"endTime":594.425,"body":"So, um, the AI tools were"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":589.745,"endTime":594.425,"body":"suggesting test code to me."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":594.92,"endTime":596.16,"body":"That wasn't really useful."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":596.16,"endTime":600.59,"body":"Like it was stuff like they, they were,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":596.16,"endTime":600.59,"body":"the AI suggestions were mocking a lot."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":600.73,"endTime":603.73,"body":"So even mocking to the point"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":600.73,"endTime":603.73,"body":"that it was mocking the things"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":603.73,"endTime":605.04,"body":"that I actually wanted to test."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":605.64,"endTime":610.52,"body":"And then when I was trying to"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":605.64,"endTime":610.52,"body":"actually, um, use real data inputs,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":610.52,"endTime":614.05,"body":"real data structures, I noticed"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":610.52,"endTime":614.05,"body":"that the data structures used in"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":614.05,"endTime":617.93,"body":"the code were very convoluted and"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":614.05,"endTime":617.93,"body":"like a deep hierarchy of objects."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":618.59,"endTime":620.97,"body":"So I couldn't just mock that away."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":620.97,"endTime":622.65,"body":"I wanted the real data, but."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":623.735,"endTime":628.405,"body":"AI couldn't help me set up my test data"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":623.735,"endTime":628.405,"body":"properly because I think it was like the"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":628.405,"endTime":630.365,"body":"network of these objects was too deep."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":630.375,"endTime":633.895,"body":"It just wasn't quite"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":630.375,"endTime":633.895,"body":"figuring out the full path."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":634.155,"endTime":637.885,"body":"So I kept running into null pointer"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":634.155,"endTime":637.885,"body":"exceptions and I never succeeded"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":637.895,"endTime":641.175,"body":"like to write a test with the help"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":637.895,"endTime":641.175,"body":"of AI that would actually help me."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":641.575,"endTime":646.095,"body":"So it was like a great example of,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":641.575,"endTime":646.095,"body":"um, you know, if you don't have unit"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":646.095,"endTime":650.885,"body":"tests in a code base, probably AI"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":646.095,"endTime":650.885,"body":"cannot help you with that unless"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":650.885,"endTime":652.715,"body":"you first refactor the code base."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":653.045,"endTime":654.155,"body":"So it's easier to test,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":654.356,"endTime":656.926,"body":"Yeah, or even, um,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":654.356,"endTime":656.926,"body":"you know, I've, I've found that a lot"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":656.926,"endTime":660.156,"body":"of these models just don't work very"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":656.926,"endTime":660.156,"body":"well if you don't have a concrete"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":660.156,"endTime":664.606,"body":"example for them to reference as like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":660.156,"endTime":664.606,"body":"the baseline, you know, so if you have"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":664.616,"endTime":668.016,"body":"zero tests, it's like you, you really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":664.616,"endTime":668.016,"body":"kind of have to go from zero to one before"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":668.016,"endTime":669.676,"body":"you could even expect like most of these"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":670.005,"endTime":670.615,"body":"exactly."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":670.695,"endTime":673.625,"body":"Test generation works a lot better"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":670.695,"endTime":673.625,"body":"when you have some examples already"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":673.625,"endTime":675.315,"body":"and you have like maybe a setup."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":675.315,"endTime":678.195,"body":"You already know how you want"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":675.315,"endTime":678.195,"body":"to do your mocking and, um,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":678.365,"endTime":679.065,"body":"all of those things."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":679.116,"endTime":679.336,"body":"yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":679.336,"endTime":682.226,"body":"But I think, you know, one thing, one"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":679.336,"endTime":682.226,"body":"theme that I think I've picked up here is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":682.236,"endTime":685.656,"body":"that, uh, you know, particularly when you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":682.236,"endTime":685.656,"body":"were talking about asking the code base,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":685.696,"endTime":690.446,"body":"it's, it's like, there's, there's, it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":685.696,"endTime":690.446,"body":"seems to be a lot of value in going from"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":690.496,"endTime":695.466,"body":"like knowledge acquisition to some sort of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":690.496,"endTime":695.466,"body":"practical application of that knowledge."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":695.466,"endTime":695.746,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":695.746,"endTime":698.916,"body":"You know, cause you think about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":695.746,"endTime":698.916,"body":"conventional search, like text search,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":699.416,"endTime":701.036,"body":"that's how you just find knowledge."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":701.036,"endTime":705.496,"body":"But then the human element still had to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":701.036,"endTime":705.496,"body":"like bring together multiple knowledge"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":705.496,"endTime":709.871,"body":"sources to, to craft, like, A solution"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":705.496,"endTime":709.871,"body":"for whatever situation they're in."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":709.872,"endTime":713.761,"body":"So sounds like that's been"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":709.872,"endTime":713.761,"body":"successful at the very least."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":715.435,"endTime":718.645,"body":"And I, I also"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":715.435,"endTime":718.645,"body":"think that this exactly, this like"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":718.645,"endTime":722.255,"body":"bringing knowledge together, the right"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":718.645,"endTime":722.255,"body":"knowledge for the context and kind of"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":722.255,"endTime":725.195,"body":"like putting it together for the prompt"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":722.255,"endTime":725.195,"body":"to the large language model, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":725.195,"endTime":726.715,"body":"The retrieval augmented generation."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":727.105,"endTime":730.96,"body":"I think that's where a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":727.105,"endTime":730.96,"body":"improvements in the, in the In the direct"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":730.96,"endTime":735.03,"body":"future will come from in these tools"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":730.96,"endTime":735.03,"body":"and not from like bigger models or like,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":735.05,"endTime":738.62,"body":"if only we trained the model to be even"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":735.05,"endTime":738.62,"body":"better at Java or something like that."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":738.63,"endTime":738.87,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":739.26,"endTime":741.74,"body":"But these tools and how"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":739.26,"endTime":741.74,"body":"good they can be at that."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":741.74,"endTime":745.79,"body":"So there are some, um, some products"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":741.74,"endTime":745.79,"body":"also coming out now where they."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":746.02,"endTime":749.49,"body":"Yeah, really try some much more"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":746.02,"endTime":749.49,"body":"sophisticated approaches to pull in"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":749.49,"endTime":753.77,"body":"your documentation and your JIRA tickets"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":749.49,"endTime":753.77,"body":"and your code and put it into these"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":754.05,"endTime":758.29,"body":"knowledge graphs and really categorize"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":754.05,"endTime":758.29,"body":"that knowledge and then try to, uh,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":758.44,"endTime":761.82,"body":"try to figure out the intent of the"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":758.44,"endTime":761.82,"body":"person working in the tool, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":761.82,"endTime":766.32,"body":"What do they want to do and what"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":761.82,"endTime":766.32,"body":"would be useful information and"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":766.6,"endTime":769.95,"body":"the degree to which these tools"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":766.6,"endTime":769.95,"body":"can do that for us effectively."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":769.95,"endTime":772.38,"body":"I think that's the big potential, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":772.38,"endTime":772.59,"body":"Like."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":773.155,"endTime":775.785,"body":"When we don't have to"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":773.155,"endTime":775.785,"body":"do all of that anymore."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":776.281,"endTime":776.681,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":776.761,"endTime":780.601,"body":"Um, and you know, I've, I've found"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":776.761,"endTime":780.601,"body":"myself thinking about, so, so let's,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":780.641,"endTime":784.191,"body":"let's maybe use this to segue into like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":780.641,"endTime":784.191,"body":"the, the core of what we want to talk"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":784.201,"endTime":786.121,"body":"about today, and that's agentic AI."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":786.431,"endTime":790.101,"body":"And I think part of the challenge of this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":786.431,"endTime":790.101,"body":"is that everyone sort of comes into, to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":790.101,"endTime":794.211,"body":"this discussion with like a different"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":790.101,"endTime":794.211,"body":"interpretation of what this means."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":794.221,"endTime":796.531,"body":"So, you know, a lot of days when I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":796.541,"endTime":802.811,"body":"about agents or AI agents, You know, I'm"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":796.541,"endTime":802.811,"body":"thinking about having, um, specific, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":802.811,"endTime":807.601,"body":"know, GPTs that I've prompted to behave"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":802.811,"endTime":807.601,"body":"a specific way so that, you know, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":807.601,"endTime":809.161,"body":"know, I do a lot of content, for example."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":809.161,"endTime":812.791,"body":"So I've got, I've got the strat, the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":809.161,"endTime":812.791,"body":"content strategist that gives me ideas."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":812.791,"endTime":815.161,"body":"I've got the writer"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":812.791,"endTime":815.161,"body":"that produces the copy."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":815.221,"endTime":816.951,"body":"I've got an editor"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":817.131,"endTime":819.091,"body":"prompt that will, will help me edit it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":819.701,"endTime":823.261,"body":"So, you know, as a, like from the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":819.701,"endTime":823.261,"body":"non developer side of me, cause"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":823.271,"endTime":824.411,"body":"it kind of viewed it that way."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":824.461,"endTime":827.676,"body":"But then there's also"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":824.461,"endTime":827.676,"body":"this like agentic AI."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":827.826,"endTime":831.276,"body":"Tools like developer tools"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":827.826,"endTime":831.276,"body":"category that seems to be emerging."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":831.276,"endTime":836.956,"body":"So maybe we can just start with like,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":831.276,"endTime":836.956,"body":"how do you define like agentic AI?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":837.065,"endTime":837.425,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":837.925,"endTime":839.615,"body":"As a, as a non data person, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":839.635,"endTime":841.025,"body":"Like I said in the beginning."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":841.025,"endTime":841.245,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":841.815,"endTime":844.535,"body":"So, um, for me, like in my head, the."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":844.99,"endTime":850.3,"body":"Simplest definition of like, what I think"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":844.99,"endTime":850.3,"body":"of when I hear agent is that you have a"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":850.3,"endTime":854.53,"body":"model and you tell the model that it has"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":850.3,"endTime":854.53,"body":"some tools available, some actions that"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":854.53,"endTime":858.89,"body":"it can take, and then the model will tell"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":854.53,"endTime":858.89,"body":"my application, Ooh, I think we should now"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":858.89,"endTime":860.74,"body":"run some tests, please run tests for me."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":860.77,"endTime":862.23,"body":"You told me that you can run tests."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":862.68,"endTime":863.43,"body":"If that makes sense, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":863.43,"endTime":867.37,"body":"If you think of it as a conversation"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":863.43,"endTime":867.37,"body":"between my application, that is the agent"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":867.39,"endTime":868.72,"body":"and the large language model, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":869.04,"endTime":872.56,"body":"So that's like the minimum, uh, that"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":869.04,"endTime":872.56,"body":"you'd give it some kind of tool, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":872.56,"endTime":875.85,"body":"And then of course it's like, you know,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":872.56,"endTime":875.85,"body":"then people call it, uh, talk about"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":875.89,"endTime":881.22,"body":"multi agent systems or like where you"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":875.89,"endTime":881.22,"body":"actually have like multiple of these"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":881.22,"endTime":885.33,"body":"applications that then talk to each"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":881.22,"endTime":885.33,"body":"other, almost like one agent is a tool"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":885.33,"endTime":886.92,"body":"that you provide to the other one."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":886.92,"endTime":887.22,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":887.24,"endTime":890.36,"body":"And that's when it gets"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":887.24,"endTime":890.36,"body":"like a lot more complicated."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":890.36,"endTime":890.59,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":890.59,"endTime":891.21,"body":"And I think."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":891.815,"endTime":895.105,"body":"Yeah, so I think when people say"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":891.815,"endTime":895.105,"body":"agent, like we always have to like"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":895.105,"endTime":896.555,"body":"investigate what do they actually mean?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":896.585,"endTime":901.285,"body":"It's one of those terms like service that"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":896.585,"endTime":901.285,"body":"is very quickly becoming very overloaded."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":902.385,"endTime":905.655,"body":"So we always have to ask each other,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":902.385,"endTime":905.655,"body":"there's no wrong or right definition."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":905.655,"endTime":909.035,"body":"I think at this transitionary time,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":905.655,"endTime":909.035,"body":"also when we're still figuring out the"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":909.035,"endTime":911.915,"body":"terminology, we always just have to"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":909.035,"endTime":911.915,"body":"ask each other, what do you mean in"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":911.915,"endTime":913.645,"body":"this context when you say agent, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":913.915,"endTime":917.405,"body":"The same, we have to do that with service"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":913.915,"endTime":917.405,"body":"or, you know, Unit test for that matter."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":917.886,"endTime":921.476,"body":"So, uh, so given"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":917.886,"endTime":921.476,"body":"that we're now sort of on the same page"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":921.476,"endTime":925.286,"body":"about how we view this technology, what,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":921.476,"endTime":925.286,"body":"what do you think are the most promising"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":925.296,"endTime":929.606,"body":"like agentic services or tools that are,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":925.296,"endTime":929.606,"body":"that are hitting the market right now?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":932.915,"endTime":935.825,"body":"I mean, there"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":932.915,"endTime":935.825,"body":"are all of these, um, tools that"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":935.875,"endTime":940.485,"body":"call themselves like software"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":935.875,"endTime":940.485,"body":"engineering agents or developer agents."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":940.505,"endTime":944.175,"body":"And, um, a lot of the coding assistants"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":940.505,"endTime":944.175,"body":"are starting to build these in."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":944.175,"endTime":948.285,"body":"So like GitHub Copilot has GitHub"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":944.175,"endTime":948.285,"body":"Copilot Workspace, which I think is"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":948.285,"endTime":951.445,"body":"still in private beta, I'm not, I, I."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":951.7,"endTime":954.87,"body":"Keep losing track of what is"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":951.7,"endTime":954.87,"body":"generally available and not."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":955.27,"endTime":958.6,"body":"Uh, there's, I know that Amazon's"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":955.27,"endTime":958.6,"body":"product has something built in."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":958.61,"endTime":961.81,"body":"There's a tool that is very focused"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":958.61,"endTime":961.81,"body":"on test generation called Kodo."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":961.84,"endTime":965.37,"body":"They are also experimenting"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":961.84,"endTime":965.37,"body":"with, um, agents like that."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":965.37,"endTime":967.06,"body":"There's open source things that do that."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":967.39,"endTime":969.74,"body":"This is Benchmark, S W E, Bench."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":970.07,"endTime":972.21,"body":"Uh, I think it's from"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":970.07,"endTime":972.21,"body":"Princeton university."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":972.21,"endTime":974.61,"body":"If I'm not, if I'm not wrong, where"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":972.21,"endTime":974.61,"body":"they're trying to build a benchmark."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":974.75,"endTime":978.65,"body":"Benchmark these tools, but in the,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":974.75,"endTime":978.65,"body":"in the Gen AI space, like benchmarks"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":978.65,"endTime":981.88,"body":"should always be taken with a grain"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":978.65,"endTime":981.88,"body":"of salt as well, because you, you,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":981.94,"endTime":984.32,"body":"you always have to investigate,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":981.94,"endTime":984.32,"body":"like, what are they actually testing?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":984.32,"endTime":985.3,"body":"What are they comparing?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":985.65,"endTime":987.8,"body":"So we also can't really rely on that."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":987.8,"endTime":988.09,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":988.49,"endTime":992.12,"body":"Um, so, um, I've watched"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":988.49,"endTime":992.12,"body":"a few demo videos."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":992.12,"endTime":994.45,"body":"I've tried a few of these myself, right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":994.45,"endTime":997.71,"body":"And a code base that I have, and I"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":994.45,"endTime":997.71,"body":"know, Oh, I have to do this like little"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":997.71,"endTime":1001.71,"body":"extension and it actually uses a lot of"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":997.71,"endTime":1001.71,"body":"the existing components I already have."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1001.71,"endTime":1004.94,"body":"So it needs to create a new react"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1001.71,"endTime":1004.94,"body":"component and needs to create a."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1005.195,"endTime":1009.405,"body":"Backend, endpoint, and then it needs to,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1005.195,"endTime":1009.405,"body":"uh, stick those two together, let's say."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1009.405,"endTime":1009.675,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1009.675,"endTime":1013.665,"body":"So I always think about, okay, what is"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1009.675,"endTime":1013.665,"body":"something that, where I already have code,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1013.695,"endTime":1018.145,"body":"but it's kind of like, uh, relatively"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1013.695,"endTime":1018.145,"body":"straightforward because that feels"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1018.145,"endTime":1020.355,"body":"like a good sweet spot, maybe, I think."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1020.355,"endTime":1020.615,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1020.615,"endTime":1021.785,"body":"So it's not quite."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1022.565,"endTime":1023.485,"body":"Totally simple."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1023.515,"endTime":1027.135,"body":"So something that I could do myself,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1023.515,"endTime":1027.135,"body":"but it's also not like super complex"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1027.135,"endTime":1028.535,"body":"and new, and there's no example."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1028.655,"endTime":1028.995,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1029.325,"endTime":1032.005,"body":"So these types of sweet spot"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1029.325,"endTime":1032.005,"body":"things I was looking for my code"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1032.005,"endTime":1033.355,"body":"basis and then tried these tools."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1033.375,"endTime":1040.375,"body":"And so at the moment I am not very"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1033.375,"endTime":1040.375,"body":"like excited about them, to be honest."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1040.855,"endTime":1045.305,"body":"Like one problem that I have is"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1040.855,"endTime":1045.305,"body":"that, um, They seem to often be, uh,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1045.345,"endTime":1048.775,"body":"advertised as like, Oh, these things"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1045.345,"endTime":1048.775,"body":"are going to be our agents that can"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1048.775,"endTime":1051.385,"body":"solve like any type of"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1048.775,"endTime":1051.385,"body":"problem for software, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1051.685,"endTime":1054.415,"body":"Which is maybe a marketing"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1051.685,"endTime":1054.415,"body":"problem you could say, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1054.415,"endTime":1058.745,"body":"Because I don't think that that"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1054.415,"endTime":1058.745,"body":"promise is, uh, full, fulfillable."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1059.765,"endTime":1062.455,"body":"Um, it's just, it's just"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1059.765,"endTime":1062.455,"body":"too much the scope, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1062.485,"endTime":1065.685,"body":"But what I do find"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1062.485,"endTime":1065.685,"body":"interesting is are there any."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1066.12,"endTime":1070.03,"body":"Specific types of problems that"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1066.12,"endTime":1070.03,"body":"maybe, yes, in the next few years,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1070.03,"endTime":1072.44,"body":"we could actually get to a point"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1070.03,"endTime":1072.44,"body":"where these can help us, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1072.78,"endTime":1075.76,"body":"Like what I was just saying, like maybe"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1072.78,"endTime":1075.76,"body":"things where we already have code,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1076.01,"endTime":1081.21,"body":"it's relatively straightforward, you"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1076.01,"endTime":1081.21,"body":"know, um, or, you know, what I was"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1081.21,"endTime":1085.41,"body":"writing in the memos about like a tech"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1081.21,"endTime":1085.41,"body":"stack migration that is not quite as"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1085.41,"endTime":1087.15,"body":"straightforward as a Java upgrade."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1087.69,"endTime":1091.5,"body":"But, um, uh, has kind"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1087.69,"endTime":1091.5,"body":"of like this fuzziness."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1091.5,"endTime":1093.55,"body":"So it's still like quite"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1091.5,"endTime":1093.55,"body":"a lot of work manually."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1093.55,"endTime":1097.8,"body":"Like the, a good example today"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1093.55,"endTime":1097.8,"body":"is like enzyme migrating enzyme"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1097.8,"endTime":1099.82,"body":"tests to react testing library."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1100.09,"endTime":1102.87,"body":"Cause it's a very common use case of"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1100.09,"endTime":1102.87,"body":"something that's deprecated right now."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1103.21,"endTime":1105.39,"body":"So maybe there are these areas."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1106.24,"endTime":1109.61,"body":"Where, uh, this will work better sooner."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1109.7,"endTime":1110.23,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1111.11,"endTime":1114.24,"body":"But then at the same time, when I look"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1111.11,"endTime":1114.24,"body":"at it, like I've had these experiences"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1114.24,"endTime":1118.06,"body":"of like, I was talking about this"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1114.24,"endTime":1118.06,"body":"standard case of, I want to react"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1118.07,"endTime":1119.77,"body":"component that calls a backend endpoint."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1119.8,"endTime":1120.84,"body":"I have lots of examples."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1120.84,"endTime":1121.1,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1121.53,"endTime":1124.9,"body":"So, and then like an agent is like, I"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1121.53,"endTime":1124.9,"body":"see an agent kind of like go through."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1124.9,"endTime":1127.41,"body":"You see the text come through"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1124.9,"endTime":1127.41,"body":"the text generation, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1127.41,"endTime":1128.27,"body":"Here's a plan."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1128.27,"endTime":1129.14,"body":"This is what you should do."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1129.53,"endTime":1133.0,"body":"And then I see these one or"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1129.53,"endTime":1133.0,"body":"two things where I'm like, Oh,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1133.0,"endTime":1134.46,"body":"it shouldn't name it that way."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1134.46,"endTime":1135.79,"body":"That's like miss, like."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1137.715,"endTime":1140.275,"body":"That's not a good term, how"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1137.715,"endTime":1140.275,"body":"to call this variable or this"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1140.285,"endTime":1141.555,"body":"concept or something like that."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1141.555,"endTime":1141.865,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1142.345,"endTime":1145.525,"body":"Um, and we still have to"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1142.345,"endTime":1145.525,"body":"edit this code in the future."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1145.885,"endTime":1146.195,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1146.195,"endTime":1149.925,"body":"So we still don't have AI that also takes"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1146.195,"endTime":1149.925,"body":"care of the maintenance for us later."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1149.925,"endTime":1150.155,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1150.155,"endTime":1153.295,"body":"So humans still need to be able"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1150.155,"endTime":1153.295,"body":"to maintain this and change this."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1153.305,"endTime":1156.625,"body":"So it's important to me that"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1153.305,"endTime":1156.625,"body":"certain namings are right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1156.895,"endTime":1159.825,"body":"So now I have this like big plan"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1156.895,"endTime":1159.825,"body":"that I waited for like two minutes"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1159.825,"endTime":1162.645,"body":"for the AI to spit out, and I"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1159.825,"endTime":1162.645,"body":"have these two little comments."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1163.265,"endTime":1165.365,"body":"I want to change the name of"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1163.265,"endTime":1165.365,"body":"that and the name of that."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1165.975,"endTime":1169.245,"body":"So then when you say, please change"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1165.975,"endTime":1169.245,"body":"those names, it goes and does the"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1169.245,"endTime":1170.695,"body":"same thing again for two minutes."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1171.455,"endTime":1177.195,"body":"So, um, it's, it's just like an example of"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1171.455,"endTime":1177.195,"body":"how it seems very tedious at the moment in"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1177.195,"endTime":1180.915,"body":"the user experience for me as a developer"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1177.195,"endTime":1180.915,"body":"to work with the AI to change the plan."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1181.185,"endTime":1185.145,"body":"So, um, when I look at what, uh, Copilot"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1181.185,"endTime":1185.145,"body":"Workspace is doing, it looks like a"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1185.155,"endTime":1188.845,"body":"nice, relatively okay user experience"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1185.155,"endTime":1188.845,"body":"of how I can edit things, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1188.845,"endTime":1192.175,"body":"But this is like one of the things"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1188.845,"endTime":1192.175,"body":"that I'm wondering about when we have"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1192.175,"endTime":1194.145,"body":"the AI solve these larger problems."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1194.44,"endTime":1198.07,"body":"How can we still like tweak the"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1194.44,"endTime":1198.07,"body":"little screws and how is that still"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1198.07,"endTime":1199.67,"body":"a good developer experience for us?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1200.25,"endTime":1204.62,"body":"Um, so that's one of the things I'm"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1200.25,"endTime":1204.62,"body":"wondering about and I haven't really"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1205.87,"endTime":1211.44,"body":"ever in a demo video or for myself seen"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1205.87,"endTime":1211.44,"body":"a tool really solve the original problem."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1211.87,"endTime":1214.48,"body":"There's something weird going on with"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1211.87,"endTime":1214.48,"body":"these marketing videos where even"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1214.48,"endTime":1218.29,"body":"the use cases that they choose for"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1214.48,"endTime":1218.29,"body":"the video often don't make sense."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1218.29,"endTime":1221.58,"body":"There's a bunch of like videos on"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1218.29,"endTime":1221.58,"body":"YouTube of people ranting about that."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1221.77,"endTime":1223.4,"body":"So, so I don't know."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1223.815,"endTime":1228.545,"body":"It still seems very immature,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1223.815,"endTime":1228.545,"body":"so I'm, I'm holding my breath."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1228.816,"endTime":1231.356,"body":"I think, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1228.816,"endTime":1231.356,"body":"think the pie in the sky vision of this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1231.366,"endTime":1235.756,"body":"is like being able to go from like a JIRA"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1231.366,"endTime":1235.756,"body":"ticket to code that's in production using"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1235.756,"endTime":1237.776,"body":"completely an AI workflow."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1238.056,"endTime":1241.286,"body":"But just from from the experience I've"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1238.056,"endTime":1241.286,"body":"had working with these tools, it's like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1242.106,"endTime":1246.446,"body":"really, the more focused you have each"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1242.106,"endTime":1246.446,"body":"model on a specific task, the better."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1246.816,"endTime":1250.986,"body":"And you really kind of have to have"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1246.816,"endTime":1250.986,"body":"at this point in time, you still"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1250.986,"endTime":1255.296,"body":"have to have a human in between each"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1250.986,"endTime":1255.296,"body":"one of those points to validate and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1255.296,"endTime":1258.316,"body":"make sure that You know, the input"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1255.296,"endTime":1258.316,"body":"for the next part of the workflow"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1258.316,"endTime":1260.646,"body":"is actually going to be successful."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1260.696,"endTime":1263.496,"body":"And, um, you know, I think, yeah, I agree."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1263.496,"endTime":1266.516,"body":"The marketing around this stuff has been"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1263.496,"endTime":1266.516,"body":"wild, probably because it's so hyped."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1266.586,"endTime":1268.576,"body":"But, um, but I remember"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1268.576,"endTime":1271.566,"body":"one statement I saw a company"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1268.576,"endTime":1271.566,"body":"have on their website."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1271.946,"endTime":1275.796,"body":"I think it just said unleash an army"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1271.946,"endTime":1275.796,"body":"of junior developers under a code."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1276.426,"endTime":1278.376,"body":"And I'm like, on the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1276.426,"endTime":1278.376,"body":"surface, that sounds amazing."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1278.376,"endTime":1281.866,"body":"Cause like you could do so much if you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1278.376,"endTime":1281.866,"body":"had an army of developers, but then"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1281.866,"endTime":1284.936,"body":"you think about how much supervision"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1281.866,"endTime":1284.936,"body":"those junior developers are going to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1284.936,"endTime":1285.356,"body":"need."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1285.426,"endTime":1285.756,"body":"And"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1286.785,"endTime":1287.525,"body":"It's like I said, a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1287.906,"endTime":1289.196,"body":"yeah, exactly."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1290.445,"endTime":1293.005,"body":"No shit, no shade"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1290.445,"endTime":1293.005,"body":"to the junior developers out there."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1293.005,"endTime":1297.555,"body":"Like you're not, you're not, uh, in"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1293.005,"endTime":1297.555,"body":"a, in a, in an enviable situation"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1297.555,"endTime":1297.975,"body":"right now."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1297.975,"endTime":1298.325,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1298.866,"endTime":1299.146,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1299.346,"endTime":1302.636,"body":"is there anything like today that you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1299.346,"endTime":1302.636,"body":"think people should be paying attention"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1302.636,"endTime":1306.486,"body":"to as like, like it's, it's here, here"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1302.636,"endTime":1306.486,"body":"now, or if it's not, it's close enough"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1306.486,"endTime":1310.366,"body":"that you should start figuring out how"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1306.486,"endTime":1310.366,"body":"to adopt it into your software delivery."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1314.945,"endTime":1318.115,"body":"yeah, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1314.945,"endTime":1318.115,"body":"the coding assistant products that"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1318.115,"endTime":1324.435,"body":"are out there today are actually,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1318.115,"endTime":1324.435,"body":"uh, um, quite useful already, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1324.435,"endTime":1326.945,"body":"Like for things that"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1324.435,"endTime":1326.945,"body":"we can do today, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1327.345,"endTime":1329.845,"body":"So GitHub Copilot is a good product."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1330.065,"endTime":1332.435,"body":"There's this, uh, IDE"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1330.065,"endTime":1332.435,"body":"called Cursor, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1332.435,"endTime":1333.025,"body":"That I always, you know, use."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1333.325,"endTime":1336.275,"body":"Call it like on my slides, like the"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1333.325,"endTime":1336.275,"body":"developer favorite, you know, because"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1336.285,"endTime":1337.685,"body":"a lot of developers really like it."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1337.685,"endTime":1342.225,"body":"And it's also like a great tool to look"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1337.685,"endTime":1342.225,"body":"at, uh, what are the next upcoming ideas?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1342.225,"endTime":1345.065,"body":"Because they put a lot of interesting"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1342.225,"endTime":1345.065,"body":"things in that, you know, maybe"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1345.065,"endTime":1347.675,"body":"sometimes don't quite work yet,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1345.065,"endTime":1347.675,"body":"but that give you an idea of, Oh,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1347.685,"endTime":1349.015,"body":"what if we could make that work?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1349.025,"endTime":1350.005,"body":"That's really interesting."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1350.035,"endTime":1352.585,"body":"And they have interesting"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1350.035,"endTime":1352.585,"body":"ideas about user experience."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1352.965,"endTime":1353.515,"body":"Um."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1354.37,"endTime":1357.6,"body":"All of these coding assistants now"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1354.37,"endTime":1357.6,"body":"at least have awareness of your"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1357.6,"endTime":1359.19,"body":"local code base that you have open."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1359.19,"endTime":1362.57,"body":"So they index the whole code base and you"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1359.19,"endTime":1362.57,"body":"can ask questions about that code base."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1362.58,"endTime":1363.85,"body":"So that's super helpful."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1364.24,"endTime":1369.36,"body":"Um, there's more and more, uh, things"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1364.24,"endTime":1369.36,"body":"emerging in terms of like, uh, what"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1369.36,"endTime":1371.05,"body":"is often called context providers."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1371.14,"endTime":1377.1,"body":"So, um, that you can say, for"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1371.14,"endTime":1377.1,"body":"example, um, like, like a bot, right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1377.1,"endTime":1379.35,"body":"So that you can say at Atlassian in your."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1379.74,"endTime":1383.04,"body":"Coding Assistant, Chat, and it"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1379.74,"endTime":1383.04,"body":"will, and then ask questions"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1383.04,"endTime":1384.47,"body":"about what's in Atlassian, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1384.47,"endTime":1388.08,"body":"So it's like, um, all of these, it's"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1384.47,"endTime":1388.08,"body":"almost like an ecosystem emerging now"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1388.08,"endTime":1391.61,"body":"with like all of these extensions and"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1388.08,"endTime":1391.61,"body":"these tools integrating into each other."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1391.87,"endTime":1395.22,"body":"So again, that you can have more"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1391.87,"endTime":1395.22,"body":"context and like better context"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1395.22,"endTime":1398.71,"body":"orchestration and better curation of"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1395.22,"endTime":1398.71,"body":"what's, what's relevant in the moment."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1399.1,"endTime":1401.16,"body":"So that's, um, that's really interesting."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1401.91,"endTime":1406.2,"body":"And what I also would like to"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1401.91,"endTime":1406.2,"body":"see in more products is this."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1406.54,"endTime":1409.08,"body":"Idea of like sharing"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1406.54,"endTime":1409.08,"body":"prompts with the team."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1409.3,"endTime":1413.91,"body":"So there's this open source, uh, coding"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1409.3,"endTime":1413.91,"body":"extension called continue, uh, which"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1413.91,"endTime":1416.85,"body":"is by the way, also really nice if"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1413.91,"endTime":1416.85,"body":"you want to try coding systems with"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1416.88,"endTime":1420.45,"body":"different model services, because you"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1416.88,"endTime":1420.45,"body":"can plug in local models, you can plug"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1420.45,"endTime":1424.46,"body":"in, I don't know, your Google Gemini"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1420.45,"endTime":1424.46,"body":"subscription, your Anthropic subscription,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1424.46,"endTime":1425.42,"body":"all of these different models."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1425.42,"endTime":1426.74,"body":"So it's kind of nice for that as well."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1427.01,"endTime":1434.34,"body":"But one, like maybe, uh, Not so like"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1427.01,"endTime":1434.34,"body":"flashy looking feature that I really like"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1434.34,"endTime":1438.58,"body":"that I haven't seen in that many of the"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1434.34,"endTime":1438.58,"body":"other products is that you can create"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1438.58,"endTime":1443.27,"body":"a folder and put in prompts that maybe"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1438.58,"endTime":1443.27,"body":"on your team you're using a lot, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1443.27,"endTime":1448.74,"body":"So just the other day I was trying"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1443.27,"endTime":1448.74,"body":"this thing where, um, uh, let's say"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1448.74,"endTime":1455.83,"body":"you say, um, Summarize all of my local"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1448.74,"endTime":1455.83,"body":"changes as like a change summary, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1455.84,"endTime":1458.51,"body":"Like, let's say as a basis for release"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1455.84,"endTime":1458.51,"body":"notes or something like that, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1458.76,"endTime":1463.26,"body":"Because you can point it at your local Git"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1458.76,"endTime":1463.26,"body":"diff or you can ask it for code review."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1463.26,"endTime":1466.85,"body":"Of course, like these models are not"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1463.26,"endTime":1466.85,"body":"that great yet at code review, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1466.85,"endTime":1467.86,"body":"But you can do that, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1468.17,"endTime":1470.92,"body":"And then you can have these shared"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1468.17,"endTime":1470.92,"body":"like prompts where maybe you have some"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1470.92,"endTime":1473.77,"body":"of your coding conventions that you"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1470.92,"endTime":1473.77,"body":"always want to check, or this is the"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1473.77,"endTime":1477.38,"body":"format of the change log that we want"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1473.77,"endTime":1477.38,"body":"to have, or, and you can have that as"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1477.41,"endTime":1480.075,"body":"custom commands in in the chat, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1480.385,"endTime":1483.755,"body":"And this way you can kind of codify"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1480.385,"endTime":1483.755,"body":"some of the practices or conventions"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1483.755,"endTime":1487.265,"body":"that you have on your team in these"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1483.755,"endTime":1487.265,"body":"prompts and like share them with the"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1487.265,"endTime":1489.125,"body":"model when it's helping you, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1489.475,"endTime":1491.415,"body":"So I think that's quite promising."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1491.435,"endTime":1493.315,"body":"Also, like such a simple thing, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1493.315,"endTime":1496.675,"body":"And it gives you as a, as a team and"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1493.315,"endTime":1496.675,"body":"as developers, it gives you a lot more"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1496.675,"endTime":1500.425,"body":"transparency about what's actually going"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1496.675,"endTime":1500.425,"body":"on because these tools often do all"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1500.435,"endTime":1502.145,"body":"of this orchestration under the hood."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1502.545,"endTime":1505.355,"body":"And sometimes it feels like magic, but"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1502.545,"endTime":1505.355,"body":"you don't really know what's going on."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1505.355,"endTime":1505.625,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1505.945,"endTime":1507.045,"body":"And sometimes it's very easy."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1507.045,"endTime":1509.725,"body":"You just say, okay, I want to"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1507.045,"endTime":1509.725,"body":"point at my local Git diff."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1509.815,"endTime":1510.985,"body":"Here are my instructions."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1511.765,"endTime":1513.155,"body":"And you know exactly what's happening,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1513.216,"endTime":1513.496,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1513.526,"endTime":1517.456,"body":"I mean, you know, a year and a half"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1513.526,"endTime":1517.456,"body":"ago, none of us knew anything about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1517.456,"endTime":1519.256,"body":"writing prompts for these things."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1519.286,"endTime":1519.656,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1520.036,"endTime":1524.136,"body":"And, and today it's like, we're, we're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1520.036,"endTime":1524.136,"body":"all sort of collectively trying to figure"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1524.136,"endTime":1525.816,"body":"out what it takes to do it the right"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1525.816,"endTime":1528.046,"body":"way, you know, and it's, and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1525.816,"endTime":1528.046,"body":"it's actually a practice that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1528.086,"endTime":1529.256,"body":"my team has adopted as well."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1529.256,"endTime":1532.636,"body":"Like when we come up with interesting"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1529.256,"endTime":1532.636,"body":"prompts that help us be more productive"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1532.996,"endTime":1536.256,"body":"at something, we've started sharing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1532.996,"endTime":1536.256,"body":"them with the team and, and commenting"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1536.256,"endTime":1539.496,"body":"on how we can get it better, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1536.256,"endTime":1539.496,"body":"and if, if, if something only gets"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1539.496,"endTime":1541.466,"body":"us 80 percent of the way, how can we."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1541.651,"endTime":1546.581,"body":"Get it 85 percent the next time, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1541.651,"endTime":1546.581,"body":"so yeah, it's a, I think that's a really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1546.581,"endTime":1548.581,"body":"great practice for teams to take away."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1550.515,"endTime":1552.215,"body":"And this"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1550.515,"endTime":1552.215,"body":"term prompt engineering is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1552.411,"endTime":1552.781,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1554.155,"endTime":1555.175,"body":"kind of annoying, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1555.175,"endTime":1557.745,"body":"Because it's another one of those"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1555.175,"endTime":1557.745,"body":"where we're not quite sure yet."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1557.755,"endTime":1558.045,"body":"What do"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1558.045,"endTime":1558.835,"body":"we mean by that?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1558.835,"endTime":1560.415,"body":"And everybody has a different, uh,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1560.621,"endTime":1562.561,"body":"And the way"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1560.621,"endTime":1562.561,"body":"it works changes every day."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1562.561,"endTime":1563.681,"body":"It seems like, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1563.681,"endTime":1564.071,"body":"models"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1564.58,"endTime":1567.21,"body":"and the word"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1564.58,"endTime":1567.21,"body":"engineering again, you know, so some,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1567.4,"endTime":1570.82,"body":"some people, like, sometimes when you"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1567.4,"endTime":1570.82,"body":"say prompt engineering, you just mean"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1571.05,"endTime":1574.45,"body":"the way you write your prompt when you"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1571.05,"endTime":1574.45,"body":"type into chat GPT or something, right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1574.73,"endTime":1577.51,"body":"But then there's like a much broader"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1574.73,"endTime":1577.51,"body":"definition where it's like all of the"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1577.52,"endTime":1581.46,"body":"retrieval augmented, uh, generation"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1577.52,"endTime":1581.46,"body":"engineering that you do around it."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1581.46,"endTime":1584.26,"body":"Like when a coding assistant, for"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1581.46,"endTime":1584.26,"body":"example, puts together the prompt, right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1584.26,"endTime":1588.65,"body":"That is maybe like actual engineering"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1584.26,"endTime":1588.65,"body":"more than that, but because it's"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1588.88,"endTime":1591.7,"body":"It intimidates a lot of people"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1588.88,"endTime":1591.7,"body":"away from just writing a prompt."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1591.7,"endTime":1592.02,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1592.04,"endTime":1594.81,"body":"And we all now have to, because"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1592.04,"endTime":1594.81,"body":"I don't think this is going away."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1594.86,"endTime":1598.54,"body":"So we all have to like, we're not"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1594.86,"endTime":1598.54,"body":"going to be able to ignore this."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1598.55,"endTime":1599.83,"body":"It's just too tempting."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1599.86,"endTime":1603.24,"body":"So we all better figure out how to use"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1599.86,"endTime":1603.24,"body":"this in a responsible way so that our"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1603.24,"endTime":1607.58,"body":"quality stays good and that our junior"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1603.24,"endTime":1607.58,"body":"developers use it in a responsible way."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1607.58,"endTime":1607.83,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1608.13,"endTime":1610.38,"body":"And to figure that out, we have to use it."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1610.38,"endTime":1614.23,"body":"So we have to get over this like, Oh,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1610.38,"endTime":1614.23,"body":"but I'm first, I have to like do four"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1614.23,"endTime":1615.72,"body":"hours of prompt engineering training."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1615.72,"endTime":1615.99,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1616.34,"endTime":1617.44,"body":"It's very accessible."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1617.44,"endTime":1618.71,"body":"So we just have to start."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1619.39,"endTime":1619.92,"body":"Using it,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1620.08,"endTime":1620.29,"body":"right."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1621.097,"endTime":1624.597,"body":"So you brought up a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1621.097,"endTime":1624.597,"body":"really great point, um, you know, about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1624.597,"endTime":1628.117,"body":"prompt engineering, about how can it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1624.597,"endTime":1628.117,"body":"feel like intimidating to some people."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1628.477,"endTime":1630.997,"body":"Uh, and you know, my practical"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1628.477,"endTime":1630.997,"body":"advice to people who might be in that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1630.997,"endTime":1633.627,"body":"situation, honestly, is just to ask."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1634.327,"endTime":1637.447,"body":"Whatever model you're using to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1634.327,"endTime":1637.447,"body":"help you write prompts and suddenly"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1637.447,"endTime":1638.887,"body":"you'll get so much better at it."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1639.751,"endTime":1640.181,"body":"yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1640.181,"endTime":1641.781,"body":"That's, that's a good hack actually."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1641.801,"endTime":1642.691,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1643.327,"endTime":1647.667,"body":"So, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1643.327,"endTime":1647.667,"body":"think with all of these new technologies"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1647.697,"endTime":1652.557,"body":"that are coming out, um, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1647.697,"endTime":1652.557,"body":"I, I, I think this happens with just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1652.557,"endTime":1658.032,"body":"about every way, whether it's like,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1652.557,"endTime":1658.032,"body":"Containerization, microservices, mobile,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1658.372,"endTime":1660.242,"body":"like every wave of new technology."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1660.242,"endTime":1664.282,"body":"I think there's, there's a moment where"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1660.242,"endTime":1664.282,"body":"we hit like tool fatigue, where there's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1664.282,"endTime":1668.432,"body":"just so much developers have already"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1664.282,"endTime":1668.432,"body":"adopted multiple tools in this space."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1668.452,"endTime":1673.062,"body":"They might be wondering like, um, Like,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1668.452,"endTime":1673.062,"body":"do we need, do we actually need more?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1673.072,"endTime":1675.412,"body":"Like, do we need to actually cut"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1673.072,"endTime":1675.412,"body":"out some of the tools we have?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1675.832,"endTime":1676.082,"body":"So,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1676.522,"endTime":1680.532,"body":"you know, do you think tool fatigue is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1676.522,"endTime":1680.532,"body":"something that we're, we're approaching?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1680.612,"endTime":1684.722,"body":"Like, do you think it's going to get worse"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1680.612,"endTime":1684.722,"body":"before it gets better in the near future,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1684.722,"endTime":1686.412,"body":"or how do you think that's playing out?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1689.771,"endTime":1690.251,"body":"Yeah, I can find it."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1690.251,"endTime":1694.451,"body":"I also think there's like an, such"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1690.251,"endTime":1694.451,"body":"an explosion of tools in the space"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1694.451,"endTime":1698.851,"body":"right now, and also of just like open"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1694.451,"endTime":1698.851,"body":"source experiments and stuff like"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1698.851,"endTime":1703.571,"body":"that, because the technology is very"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1698.851,"endTime":1703.571,"body":"accessible in the first steps, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1703.621,"endTime":1706.411,"body":"Like, you know, you build a little"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1703.621,"endTime":1706.411,"body":"application that sends prompts"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1706.411,"endTime":1709.671,"body":"to a Maybe you even provide it"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1706.411,"endTime":1709.671,"body":"with like your first little."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1710.206,"endTime":1710.706,"body":"Tool."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1710.706,"endTime":1712.686,"body":"So you have your little mini agent, right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1712.686,"endTime":1714.686,"body":"And it's actually very"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1712.686,"endTime":1714.686,"body":"quick to set this up, right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1715.536,"endTime":1719.006,"body":"But then, you know, and we're seeing"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1715.536,"endTime":1719.006,"body":"that outside of the AI for software space"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1719.006,"endTime":1722.576,"body":"as well, where it's for like building"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1719.006,"endTime":1722.576,"body":"Gen AI into your products, right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1722.606,"endTime":1726.736,"body":"That there are so many POCs out there"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1722.606,"endTime":1726.736,"body":"in organizations, like with our clients"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1726.736,"endTime":1730.256,"body":"as well, and only so little actually"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1726.736,"endTime":1730.256,"body":"goes to production and then the things"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1730.256,"endTime":1734.036,"body":"that are in production also still"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1730.256,"endTime":1734.036,"body":"sometimes have to prove like the value"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1734.036,"endTime":1735.396,"body":"that they're actually bringing, right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1735.396,"endTime":1738.536,"body":"I mean, there's some domains where it's"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1735.396,"endTime":1738.536,"body":"more obvious than in others, but it's"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1738.946,"endTime":1742.556,"body":"It's there's so many POCs out there and"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1738.946,"endTime":1742.556,"body":"the same, like so many little tools on"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1742.576,"endTime":1748.296,"body":"GitHub or on people announcing next model"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1742.576,"endTime":1748.296,"body":"that's supposedly better than GPT 4."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1748.296,"endTime":1749.826,"body":"And once more, it is not right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1750.186,"endTime":1755.856,"body":"So, um, so I think maybe one way to"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1750.186,"endTime":1755.856,"body":"navigate that is like, as I said,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1755.856,"endTime":1758.761,"body":"like these, uh, uh, CodingAssistance."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1758.761,"endTime":1760.771,"body":"Some of those products are"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1758.761,"endTime":1760.771,"body":"actually already quite good."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1760.811,"endTime":1762.171,"body":"I mentioned a few, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1762.211,"endTime":1766.371,"body":"I, um, maybe I should mention a few more"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1762.211,"endTime":1766.371,"body":"like there's Tab9, which has been around"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1766.371,"endTime":1768.121,"body":"for even longer than GitHub Copilot."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1768.121,"endTime":1770.431,"body":"So it's also quite a, uh, mature product."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1770.771,"endTime":1772.061,"body":"There's, um, Codium."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1772.061,"endTime":1773.331,"body":"I mentioned Codo."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1773.331,"endTime":1775.231,"body":"So there's like a bunch"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1773.331,"endTime":1775.231,"body":"of them out there, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1775.231,"endTime":1781.211,"body":"I'm, I'm trying to not be biased to,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1775.231,"endTime":1781.211,"body":"to any of them, but so, um, If you"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1781.281,"endTime":1785.021,"body":"pick one of those in your organization"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1781.281,"endTime":1785.021,"body":"and actually start using it, and then"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1785.031,"endTime":1787.161,"body":"you have a chat available in your IDE."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1787.461,"endTime":1791.651,"body":"Um, and this chat is like this,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1787.461,"endTime":1791.651,"body":"like Swiss army knife that you can"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1791.651,"endTime":1795.281,"body":"use to get used to using this in"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1791.651,"endTime":1795.281,"body":"your IDE with your code and so on."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1795.281,"endTime":1795.511,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1795.511,"endTime":1798.241,"body":"So, and I think it's like a good way to."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1798.566,"endTime":1802.536,"body":"Make sure that you learn how to use"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1798.566,"endTime":1802.536,"body":"this today and don't have to like"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1802.536,"endTime":1806.596,"body":"delay that and also do it in like"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1802.536,"endTime":1806.596,"body":"a environment where, you know, the,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1806.626,"endTime":1809.716,"body":"you know, the, the organization, the"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1806.626,"endTime":1809.716,"body":"company has actually said, yeah, we're"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1809.716,"endTime":1811.476,"body":"okay with using this for our code."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1811.786,"endTime":1814.946,"body":"And so it's like a good, how"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1811.786,"endTime":1814.946,"body":"do you say like springboard?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1814.966,"endTime":1816.956,"body":"I don't know if that's"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1814.966,"endTime":1816.956,"body":"the right word, but, um."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1817.476,"endTime":1821.586,"body":"You know, to, to use it today and"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1817.476,"endTime":1821.586,"body":"then maybe, yeah, monitor a little bit"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1821.586,"endTime":1825.976,"body":"like the, the madness that is going"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1821.586,"endTime":1825.976,"body":"on around it with, um, with all of"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1825.976,"endTime":1829.566,"body":"that popping up and every now and then"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1825.976,"endTime":1829.566,"body":"maybe try one of those tools, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1829.826,"endTime":1831.736,"body":"Something that I always"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1829.826,"endTime":1831.736,"body":"try to look for is."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1832.131,"endTime":1834.641,"body":"You know, all of these tools are"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1832.131,"endTime":1834.641,"body":"making a lot of claims, and I'm always"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1834.641,"endTime":1839.761,"body":"looking, is there some write up or"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1834.641,"endTime":1839.761,"body":"documentation about how they're saying"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1839.761,"endTime":1841.331,"body":"that they're fulfilling this claim, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1841.341,"endTime":1842.661,"body":"Like, what is the thinking behind this?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1842.661,"endTime":1846.311,"body":"And I always look for, technically,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1842.661,"endTime":1846.311,"body":"do I understand what's going on here?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1846.311,"endTime":1849.391,"body":"Like, I was talking about the knowledge"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1846.311,"endTime":1849.391,"body":"graphs before, for example, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1849.391,"endTime":1851.961,"body":"So I'm like, ah, okay, they're"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1849.391,"endTime":1851.961,"body":"explaining to me here, they're"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1851.961,"endTime":1854.391,"body":"using a knowledge graph, and the"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1851.961,"endTime":1854.391,"body":"way they're doing that is actually"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1854.391,"endTime":1855.886,"body":"making, um, The following thing better."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1855.886,"endTime":1857.326,"body":"And that's why it supposedly works."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1857.326,"endTime":1857.536,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1857.536,"endTime":1858.336,"body":"And I'm like, Oh, okay."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1858.606,"endTime":1859.526,"body":"I have an explanation."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1859.546,"endTime":1860.686,"body":"Maybe I give this a try."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1861.196,"endTime":1864.546,"body":"And the other thing I look for"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1861.196,"endTime":1864.546,"body":"is in like how a company or a"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1864.546,"endTime":1866.246,"body":"framework is talking about something."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1866.756,"endTime":1871.846,"body":"Do I feel like they understand the real"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1866.756,"endTime":1871.846,"body":"life situation of a developer or are"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1871.846,"endTime":1875.866,"body":"they just looking into like, how can we"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1871.846,"endTime":1875.866,"body":"build a glorified artifact generator?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1875.986,"endTime":1876.246,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1876.246,"endTime":1880.016,"body":"So those are like some things I, I"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1876.246,"endTime":1880.016,"body":"look for before trying like every"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1880.016,"endTime":1881.326,"body":"single tool that comes my way."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1881.962,"endTime":1882.352,"body":"Wonderful."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1882.352,"endTime":1882.792,"body":"Wonderful."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1883.322,"endTime":1888.662,"body":"So, um, so we've, we've covered a lot"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1883.322,"endTime":1888.662,"body":"of the good and bad about these tools."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1888.772,"endTime":1892.182,"body":"Uh, so I, I don't know necessarily"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1888.772,"endTime":1892.182,"body":"we need to dig a whole lot more into"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1892.182,"endTime":1895.482,"body":"that, but I do want to focus in on"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1892.182,"endTime":1895.482,"body":"one thing that you have said in the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1895.482,"endTime":1899.712,"body":"past, uh, and that is, you said that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1895.482,"endTime":1899.712,"body":"AI is great at working with people."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1899.952,"endTime":1900.762,"body":"Adding code."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1900.822,"endTime":1902.542,"body":"So what do you mean by that?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1906.176,"endTime":1909.296,"body":"So, um, this"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1906.176,"endTime":1909.296,"body":"is actually like the best way to"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1909.296,"endTime":1913.636,"body":"demonstrate that this is actually to"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1909.296,"endTime":1913.636,"body":"reference a study that I've referenced,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1913.646,"endTime":1916.916,"body":"uh, over the past few months, a lot,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1913.646,"endTime":1916.916,"body":"and that got a lot of attention when"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1916.916,"endTime":1921.206,"body":"it came out by, um, a company called"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1916.916,"endTime":1921.206,"body":"GitLeak, uh, published this study."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1921.626,"endTime":1926.586,"body":"So maybe in February, I don't, I don't"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1921.626,"endTime":1926.586,"body":"remember when it was, but they actually"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1926.586,"endTime":1931.056,"body":"looked at like a whole bunch of like code"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1926.586,"endTime":1931.056,"body":"repositories, both public and from their"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1931.076,"endTime":1937.186,"body":"customers, I think, and found that, um, it"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1931.076,"endTime":1937.186,"body":"seems like the size of those code bases is"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1937.186,"endTime":1939.156,"body":"growing faster than it was growing before."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1939.486,"endTime":1941.436,"body":"So, um, they looked at things like."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1941.616,"endTime":1946.766,"body":"You know, the, uh, number of lines being"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1941.616,"endTime":1946.766,"body":"added versus number of, uh, code lines"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1946.766,"endTime":1950.486,"body":"being moved from one place to another"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1946.766,"endTime":1950.486,"body":"versus number of lines being changed."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1950.486,"endTime":1950.806,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1951.076,"endTime":1956.916,"body":"And they saw an uptick in lines of code"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1951.076,"endTime":1956.916,"body":"being added and, uh, kind of like down,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1957.286,"endTime":1963.486,"body":"downtick, a downtick in a number of,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1957.286,"endTime":1963.486,"body":"uh, uh, lines of code being changed."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1963.486,"endTime":1963.806,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1964.206,"endTime":1970.506,"body":"And so, um, I think this is like"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1964.206,"endTime":1970.506,"body":"a, um, an indicator for us, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1970.506,"endTime":1972.246,"body":"And it's like a very strong hypothesis."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1972.246,"endTime":1977.256,"body":"I think that if it's so easy for us with a"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1972.246,"endTime":1977.256,"body":"coding assistant to add new lines of code"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1977.316,"endTime":1980.916,"body":"instead of refactoring something where"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1977.316,"endTime":1980.916,"body":"maybe we shouldn't just add that same"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1980.916,"endTime":1985.056,"body":"function, almost the same because the AI"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1980.916,"endTime":1985.056,"body":"picks up on this other function, copies,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1985.056,"endTime":1987.186,"body":"it changes it a little bit and I'm done."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1987.246,"endTime":1987.486,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1987.486,"endTime":1988.326,"body":"It's very tempting."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1988.626,"endTime":1991.206,"body":"But then we have all of this code"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1988.626,"endTime":1991.206,"body":"duplication that, you know, in"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1991.206,"endTime":1992.346,"body":"a lot of cases we don't want."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1992.346,"endTime":1992.646,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1992.976,"endTime":1996.456,"body":"So, um, and, uh, so."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1997.506,"endTime":2002.876,"body":"These tools are often, it's, it's, it's"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":1997.506,"endTime":2002.876,"body":"more tedious to use them to change our"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2002.876,"endTime":2007.956,"body":"existing code, um, than it is to add these"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2002.876,"endTime":2007.956,"body":"new lines, because then we always have to,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2007.956,"endTime":2011.166,"body":"uh, Yeah, I don't know how to explain it."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2011.166,"endTime":2012.506,"body":"It's just more, more tedious."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2012.696,"endTime":2015.236,"body":"And it's also like when I ask"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2012.696,"endTime":2015.236,"body":"it for code review or like"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2015.246,"endTime":2016.696,"body":"what refactoring should I do?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2016.726,"endTime":2019.296,"body":"I often get very like basic advice."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2019.676,"endTime":2021.386,"body":"It's also not always the best advice."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2021.386,"endTime":2024.466,"body":"It's like always a good source"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2021.386,"endTime":2024.466,"body":"of inspiration for me and ideas."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2024.956,"endTime":2028.746,"body":"But when it comes to like more"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2024.956,"endTime":2028.746,"body":"complicated refactorings, usually I"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2028.746,"endTime":2032.176,"body":"already have to know what I want to"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2028.746,"endTime":2032.176,"body":"refactor, but because it doesn't like"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2032.246,"endTime":2036.576,"body":"explain, it doesn't suggest a more"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2032.246,"endTime":2036.576,"body":"sophisticated refactoring to me, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2036.576,"endTime":2039.006,"body":"I can only tell it, I"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2036.576,"endTime":2039.006,"body":"want to do these things."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2039.531,"endTime":2041.471,"body":"And then I already know what I want to do."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2041.471,"endTime":2041.721,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2041.721,"endTime":2043.851,"body":"So it wouldn't help a junior"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2041.721,"endTime":2043.851,"body":"developer who doesn't have that"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2043.851,"endTime":2045.161,"body":"much experience with refactoring."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2045.171,"endTime":2045.451,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2045.821,"endTime":2047.731,"body":"So I don't know if those are"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2045.821,"endTime":2047.731,"body":"like some, some good examples."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2047.731,"endTime":2052.521,"body":"There's also a really good paper, um,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2047.731,"endTime":2052.521,"body":"by this company called CodeScene where,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2052.641,"endTime":2056.771,"body":"who are, who have a product in the code"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2052.641,"endTime":2056.771,"body":"health, code health improvement space."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2057.151,"endTime":2062.151,"body":"And they, um, send like a bunch of"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2057.151,"endTime":2062.151,"body":"code smells to LLMs and ask them to"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2062.151,"endTime":2064.181,"body":"refactor them and found that often."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2064.531,"endTime":2067.171,"body":"The large language model would"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2064.531,"endTime":2067.171,"body":"change the behavior or would not"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2067.191,"endTime":2068.771,"body":"actually remove the code smell."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2069.151,"endTime":2075.451,"body":"And, um, I think they had a success rate"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2069.151,"endTime":2075.451,"body":"of like 36%, which is not great, but they"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2075.451,"endTime":2080.291,"body":"also go on to talk about like ideas, how"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2075.451,"endTime":2080.291,"body":"we can actually filter out the bad ones,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2080.291,"endTime":2083.291,"body":"the bad suggestions, and then actually"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2080.291,"endTime":2083.291,"body":"get to a really high success rate."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2083.511,"endTime":2086.591,"body":"So in a lot of these spaces, there's"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2083.511,"endTime":2086.591,"body":"like ideas, how to make this better."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2086.951,"endTime":2091.721,"body":"But it feels like it will still take like"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2086.951,"endTime":2091.721,"body":"some more time for, um, For companies"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2091.721,"endTime":2093.461,"body":"and for products to figure this out."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2093.461,"endTime":2098.261,"body":"So it's not, um, going quite as"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2093.461,"endTime":2098.261,"body":"fast as things were going last year,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2098.261,"endTime":2100.161,"body":"but you can see kind of avenues how"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2100.272,"endTime":2100.472,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2100.472,"endTime":2104.242,"body":"And I think related to this, um, I saw"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2100.472,"endTime":2104.242,"body":"some research from, I believe it was"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2104.262,"endTime":2106.402,"body":"get clear a while back that said that,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2107.081,"endTime":2107.511,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2107.511,"endTime":2109.511,"body":"That, that was the one that, did I say Git"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2109.572,"endTime":2112.282,"body":"Oh yeah, I think,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2109.572,"endTime":2112.282,"body":"yeah, I think you said someone else, but"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2113.451,"endTime":2116.011,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2113.451,"endTime":2116.011,"body":"that I, I miss, I misspoke."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2116.012,"endTime":2116.762,"body":"yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2116.912,"endTime":2117.172,"body":"yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2117.172,"endTime":2117.972,"body":"And it's, yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2117.972,"endTime":2121.522,"body":"So, I mean, if you have more code"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2117.972,"endTime":2121.522,"body":"coming into your, your software base"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2121.782,"endTime":2125.752,"body":"and that code is getting churned out"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2121.782,"endTime":2125.752,"body":"faster because the models are just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2125.762,"endTime":2129.392,"body":"constantly iterating it, like that's,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2125.762,"endTime":2129.392,"body":"I mean, that's a lot of risk that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2129.392,"endTime":2130.802,"body":"you're potentially introducing."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2131.111,"endTime":2131.351,"body":"yeah."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2131.351,"endTime":2134.721,"body":"I think it's also worth like always"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2131.351,"endTime":2134.721,"body":"remembering that these tools are"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2134.721,"endTime":2136.411,"body":"not like other software that we use."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2136.411,"endTime":2138.791,"body":"So in their non determinism, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2138.791,"endTime":2140.771,"body":"Which some people say"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2138.791,"endTime":2140.771,"body":"it's a bad thing, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2141.111,"endTime":2145.641,"body":"But because there's usefulness here in"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2141.111,"endTime":2145.641,"body":"certain situations, you know, we have to"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2145.641,"endTime":2149.521,"body":"kind of like, we think when we've used it"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2145.641,"endTime":2149.521,"body":"two or three times and it didn't help us."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2150.241,"endTime":2152.041,"body":"Maybe it wasn't the right situation."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2152.091,"endTime":2155.631,"body":"So we can't immediately dismiss them"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2152.091,"endTime":2155.631,"body":"because that's what we would do with"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2155.631,"endTime":2157.521,"body":"another tool that's deterministic, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2157.521,"endTime":2158.611,"body":"We would say, Oh, it's not"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2158.611,"endTime":2161.511,"body":"working, you know, let's move on."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2161.921,"endTime":2165.571,"body":"But with this also fuzzy and sometimes"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2161.921,"endTime":2165.571,"body":"it works and sometimes it doesn't."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2165.591,"endTime":2170.181,"body":"So we have to give it like a bit more"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2165.591,"endTime":2170.181,"body":"time to adjust our expectations of"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2170.191,"endTime":2173.001,"body":"it and to really find out when we"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2170.191,"endTime":2173.001,"body":"can use it and when we cannot use it."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2173.241,"endTime":2175.601,"body":"And there are a lot of situations"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2173.241,"endTime":2175.601,"body":"where it does not help."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2176.061,"endTime":2176.461,"body":"You know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2177.032,"endTime":2179.062,"body":"yeah, and that may"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2177.032,"endTime":2179.062,"body":"not even be a problem with the tool, it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2179.062,"endTime":2181.942,"body":"might just be a problem with the code"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2179.062,"endTime":2181.942,"body":"base that it's being run on, right?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2181.942,"endTime":2184.782,"body":"Like, in order for it to be effective"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2181.942,"endTime":2184.782,"body":"there, you may have to make,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2185.382,"endTime":2188.682,"body":"you know, as we were talking about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2185.382,"endTime":2188.682,"body":"testing earlier, changes that like that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2189.652,"endTime":2189.842,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2190.112,"endTime":2194.442,"body":"So before you leave, uh, just because"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2190.112,"endTime":2194.442,"body":"you have such a, a unique background,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2194.512,"endTime":2198.802,"body":"I wanted to ask just a little bit about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2194.512,"endTime":2198.802,"body":"you and how you got into this role."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2199.192,"endTime":2200.062,"body":"Um, so."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2200.602,"endTime":2203.232,"body":"Uh, so you've been at, you've"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2200.602,"endTime":2203.232,"body":"been at ThoughtWorks for a while,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2203.242,"endTime":2207.572,"body":"but this transition into, to AI"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2203.242,"endTime":2207.572,"body":"tools seems to be like relatively"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2207.582,"endTime":2209.122,"body":"recent, like last year or so."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2209.582,"endTime":2212.912,"body":"So I want to hear a little bit about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2209.582,"endTime":2212.912,"body":"like how that transition happened."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2212.912,"endTime":2217.842,"body":"So specifically, like what has made you so"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2212.912,"endTime":2217.842,"body":"passionate about working in the AI space?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2219.301,"endTime":2223.501,"body":"Yeah, I think it was"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2219.301,"endTime":2223.501,"body":"a little bit like, uh, the right place"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2223.501,"endTime":2226.041,"body":"at the right time with the right skills."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2227.311,"endTime":2232.181,"body":"So, um, I was actually like, when"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2227.311,"endTime":2232.181,"body":"all of this hype started, I was just"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2232.271,"endTime":2236.481,"body":"finishing up work with a client and"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2232.271,"endTime":2236.481,"body":"something else like had fallen through."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2236.501,"endTime":2240.831,"body":"And, uh, then at exactly that point"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2236.501,"endTime":2240.831,"body":"in time, ThoughtWorks thought about"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2240.841,"endTime":2245.046,"body":"introducing a role like this because"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2240.841,"endTime":2245.046,"body":"it's at Such, so, so much at the core"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2245.046,"endTime":2249.066,"body":"of what we do, custom software delivery,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2245.046,"endTime":2249.066,"body":"that we said, we, we need to invest"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2249.086,"endTime":2250.566,"body":"into this and we need to focus on this."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2250.566,"endTime":2252.346,"body":"And so that we really"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2250.566,"endTime":2252.346,"body":"understand what's going on."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2252.776,"endTime":2256.236,"body":"And so like my background was kind of"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2252.776,"endTime":2256.236,"body":"like, like I said, like I consider myself"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2256.236,"endTime":2260.016,"body":"a domain expert at effective software"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2256.236,"endTime":2260.016,"body":"delivery, you know, like, and I've not"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2260.016,"endTime":2263.596,"body":"even worked on like that many fancy"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2260.016,"endTime":2263.596,"body":"domains before, like I just love customer"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2263.596,"endTime":2265.666,"body":"data management and stuff like that."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2265.666,"endTime":2265.936,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2266.256,"endTime":2267.716,"body":"And suddenly this kind of like."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2268.601,"endTime":2274.231,"body":"Boring expertise, quote unquote, suddenly"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2268.601,"endTime":2274.231,"body":"was exactly the expertise that was needed"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2274.231,"endTime":2276.551,"body":"for this new fancy technology space."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2276.551,"endTime":2276.801,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2276.801,"endTime":2278.851,"body":"So I was really excited"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2276.801,"endTime":2278.851,"body":"about that combination."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2279.121,"endTime":2282.911,"body":"And I had also been before the,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2279.121,"endTime":2282.911,"body":"um, community of practice lead for"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2282.911,"endTime":2284.261,"body":"the developers in ThoughtWorks."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2284.271,"endTime":2287.421,"body":"And I, because I've been here almost"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2284.271,"endTime":2287.421,"body":"12 years, I have a really good"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2287.441,"endTime":2289.071,"body":"network among the practitioners."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2289.071,"endTime":2290.321,"body":"I'm a good communicator."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2290.351,"endTime":2293.451,"body":"So those are all like things that"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2290.351,"endTime":2293.451,"body":"are really useful for my role now."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2293.451,"endTime":2294.071,"body":"You know, the."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2294.531,"endTime":2298.331,"body":"The network, and it's a lot about"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2294.531,"endTime":2298.331,"body":"communication and figuring out what"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2298.331,"endTime":2303.181,"body":"actually works and, you know, also this,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2298.331,"endTime":2303.181,"body":"like, I need to code and actually try"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2303.191,"endTime":2308.381,"body":"things out hands on, but I also need"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2303.191,"endTime":2308.381,"body":"to like, talk to a CIO or the client"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2308.381,"endTime":2312.501,"body":"about it, so like all my, and I've done"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2308.381,"endTime":2312.501,"body":"consulting for 20 years, so that kind of"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2312.511,"endTime":2314.771,"body":"owned, owned all of those skills, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2314.781,"endTime":2320.681,"body":"So, um, yeah, I was, I was excited about"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2314.781,"endTime":2320.681,"body":"it because it brought like something new."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2320.681,"endTime":2323.741,"body":"And I think this is really like an"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2320.681,"endTime":2323.741,"body":"exciting time in our profession, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2324.341,"endTime":2328.581,"body":"Exciting in the sense of like so many"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2324.341,"endTime":2328.581,"body":"things are changing and sometimes also"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2328.581,"endTime":2334.471,"body":"scary and it's sometimes really annoying"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2328.581,"endTime":2334.471,"body":"because I often see these things used and"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2334.681,"endTime":2337.321,"body":"in a bad way and misrepresented, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2337.321,"endTime":2339.961,"body":"But it's like, it's still exciting, right?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2340.301,"endTime":2344.466,"body":"And, um, yeah, it feels, you know,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2340.301,"endTime":2344.466,"body":"Interesting to be a part of it."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2344.466,"endTime":2350.716,"body":"And also trying to be the voice of"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2344.466,"endTime":2350.716,"body":"reason sometimes is, uh, is, um,"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2351.626,"endTime":2353.966,"body":"it's both hard, but also satisfying."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2354.122,"endTime":2354.412,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2354.812,"endTime":2355.292,"body":"Awesome."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2356.162,"endTime":2358.322,"body":"So, well, that's all"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2356.162,"endTime":2358.322,"body":"we've got time for today."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2358.322,"endTime":2360.712,"body":"So I want to thank you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2358.322,"endTime":2360.712,"body":"again for joining me today."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2360.752,"endTime":2361.272,"body":"Brigitta."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2361.272,"endTime":2363.447,"body":"It's been, Wonderful"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2361.272,"endTime":2363.447,"body":"to have you here today."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2363.767,"endTime":2366.747,"body":"Uh, if someone wants to learn more"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2363.767,"endTime":2366.747,"body":"about you or follow your work, where's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2366.747,"endTime":2368.197,"body":"the best place for them to head to?"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2371.336,"endTime":2374.686,"body":"Yeah, I guess like"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2371.336,"endTime":2374.686,"body":"the, that memo series on martinfowler."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2374.736,"endTime":2375.026,"body":"com."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2375.026,"endTime":2377.536,"body":"So if you go to his website and"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2375.026,"endTime":2377.536,"body":"then there's a generative AI"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2377.536,"endTime":2379.136,"body":"tag, then you should find it."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2379.186,"endTime":2384.176,"body":"Um, and I also try to keep my website"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2379.186,"endTime":2384.176,"body":"up to date with the articles and"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2384.476,"endTime":2386.376,"body":"podcast episodes and stuff like that."},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2386.376,"endTime":2389.296,"body":"And that is beergitta is"},{"speaker":"Birgitta Boeckeler","startTime":2386.376,"endTime":2389.296,"body":"my first name dot info."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2390.531,"endTime":2391.911,"body":"So, welcome back."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2392.251,"endTime":2394.551,"body":"Dan, thanks for being here with me today."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2394.681,"endTime":2399.191,"body":"I wanted to try out a new segment on"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2394.681,"endTime":2399.191,"body":"the show where we bring you in to dive"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2399.191,"endTime":2403.051,"body":"deep into a few key points from the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2399.191,"endTime":2403.051,"body":"interview, and we'll use this as sort"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2403.051,"endTime":2407.401,"body":"of a way to discuss some of the bigger"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2403.051,"endTime":2407.401,"body":"themes from the episode and get your"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2407.401,"endTime":2410.876,"body":"take on how engineering leaders can"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2407.401,"endTime":2410.876,"body":"apply the lessons you've learned so far."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2410.986,"endTime":2414.876,"body":"That we heard about in this episode"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2410.986,"endTime":2414.876,"body":"to their own team or organization."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2414.886,"endTime":2419.756,"body":"So I think my conversation with Birgitta"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2414.886,"endTime":2419.756,"body":"is a really great place to start this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2419.756,"endTime":2424.616,"body":"new segment because, you know, AI"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2419.756,"endTime":2424.616,"body":"tooling has exploded, but it's really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2424.616,"endTime":2429.556,"body":"hard right now to know like what's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2424.616,"endTime":2429.556,"body":"marketing versus like what's actually"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2429.666,"endTime":2431.916,"body":"relevant products that you can use today."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2432.316,"endTime":2434.836,"body":"So, you know, I first wanted to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2432.316,"endTime":2434.836,"body":"just start by asking you a little"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2434.836,"endTime":2436.586,"body":"bit about some of her research."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2436.924,"endTime":2440.594,"body":"specifically she mentioned how"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2436.924,"endTime":2440.594,"body":"like generative AI has been"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2440.624,"endTime":2442.424,"body":"pretty useful for some use cases."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2442.809,"endTime":2445.419,"body":"But then it still struggled with"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2442.809,"endTime":2445.419,"body":"others, particularly, you know, she"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2445.419,"endTime":2449.509,"body":"mentioned like tasks that required"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2445.419,"endTime":2449.509,"body":"knowledge of like how multiple older"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2449.599,"endTime":2451.369,"body":"technologies sort of work together."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2451.949,"endTime":2456.826,"body":"So, Dan, how do Birgitta's findings align"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2451.949,"endTime":2456.826,"body":"with what you hear in conversations with"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2456.866,"endTime":2458.831,"body":"engineering leaders about generative AI?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2459.679,"endTime":2460.639,"body":"Yeah, awesome, Ben."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2460.639,"endTime":2462.219,"body":"Thanks for having me on."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2462.259,"endTime":2465.679,"body":"And the interview with Birgitta was great."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2465.839,"endTime":2468.979,"body":"she's really smart, really insightful."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2469.349,"endTime":2472.349,"body":"But I think what I can provide"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2469.349,"endTime":2472.349,"body":"is I'm working with a lot of"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2472.359,"endTime":2475.629,"body":"engineering leaders and they're"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2472.359,"endTime":2475.629,"body":"actually running into the same stuff."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2475.629,"endTime":2480.989,"body":"So the first thing that I would"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2475.629,"endTime":2480.989,"body":"say is the question that I get"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2481.069,"endTime":2484.959,"body":"asked the most, especially when"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2481.069,"endTime":2484.959,"body":"it comes to like the co pilot."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2485.324,"endTime":2489.994,"body":"Generative AI for code specifically"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2485.324,"endTime":2489.994,"body":"is, is it making an impact?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2490.374,"endTime":2492.214,"body":"That's what our community is asking."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2492.464,"endTime":2493.494,"body":"That's what they're asking me."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2493.494,"endTime":2495.294,"body":"That's what they're asking LinearB."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2495.304,"endTime":2497.354,"body":"That's the product that we provide."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2497.764,"endTime":2503.484,"body":"So what I would say is first make sure"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2497.764,"endTime":2503.484,"body":"that you have a measurement in place."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2504.294,"endTime":2510.734,"body":"Especially for not the usage, not just"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2504.294,"endTime":2510.734,"body":"usage, but what is the impact of Copilot?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2511.004,"endTime":2514.114,"body":"That's something if you're going"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2511.004,"endTime":2514.114,"body":"to go experiment there, your"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2514.124,"endTime":2515.574,"body":"business is going to ask you."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2515.914,"endTime":2519.284,"body":"So that's kind of my first tip and that's"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2515.914,"endTime":2519.284,"body":"what I'm hearing from the community."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2519.994,"endTime":2524.099,"body":"Now when we think about the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2519.994,"endTime":2524.099,"body":"different types of Let's call them"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2524.099,"endTime":2527.509,"body":"use cases because I think it's"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2524.099,"endTime":2527.509,"body":"really important to distinguish"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2527.519,"endTime":2529.699,"body":"like what is this AI stuff doing?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2530.119,"endTime":2532.489,"body":"And I can just tell you what I'm seeing."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2533.169,"endTime":2536.839,"body":"When it comes to things like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2533.169,"endTime":2536.839,"body":"generative text, I'll call it."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2536.869,"endTime":2540.879,"body":"So things like I need to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2536.869,"endTime":2540.879,"body":"generate a PR description."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2540.919,"endTime":2544.489,"body":"I need to generate"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2540.919,"endTime":2544.489,"body":"documentation based on the code."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2544.959,"endTime":2548.329,"body":"I need to do, I think Birgitta"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2544.959,"endTime":2548.329,"body":"was talking about code search,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2548.329,"endTime":2550.139,"body":"like that's more like text based."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2550.749,"endTime":2555.019,"body":"and then To be honest with you, I"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2550.749,"endTime":2555.019,"body":"think this is where AI is shining."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2555.299,"endTime":2559.049,"body":"I would, you know, I'm not like an"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2555.299,"endTime":2559.049,"body":"inventor of it, but I would say from the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2559.049,"endTime":2564.059,"body":"community, a lot of positive results, even"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2559.049,"endTime":2564.059,"body":"like the stuff we're doing at LinearB."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2565.099,"endTime":2568.169,"body":"Right now, like, we're"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2565.099,"endTime":2568.169,"body":"providing an iteration retro"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2568.179,"endTime":2569.799,"body":"summary for all team leaders."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2569.799,"endTime":2571.089,"body":"That's generative text."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2571.089,"endTime":2573.349,"body":"Like, that's doing really, really well."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2573.539,"endTime":2574.579,"body":"All of that is great."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2575.599,"endTime":2579.489,"body":"Then I think we need to open up the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2575.599,"endTime":2579.489,"body":"conversation a little bit more when"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2579.489,"endTime":2583.799,"body":"it comes to, let's say, either test"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2579.489,"endTime":2583.799,"body":"creation, that's what she was diving"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2583.799,"endTime":2586.519,"body":"into, or code generation itself."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2586.529,"endTime":2590.099,"body":"What is the impact of that, and"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2586.529,"endTime":2590.099,"body":"what is, like, the accuracy of it?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2590.409,"endTime":2594.019,"body":"I think everyone's in experimentation,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2590.409,"endTime":2594.019,"body":"measurement, and measurement."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2594.269,"endTime":2596.319,"body":"And trying to understand the impact."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2596.329,"endTime":2599.459,"body":"So maybe two different"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2596.329,"endTime":2599.459,"body":"ways to think about it."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2599.524,"endTime":2600.664,"body":"I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2600.901,"endTime":2603.011,"body":"Yeah, so and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2600.901,"endTime":2603.011,"body":"Birgitta had, you know, she had"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2603.011,"endTime":2607.331,"body":"a lot to say about agentic AI in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2603.011,"endTime":2607.331,"body":"particular, which we're hearing more"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2607.331,"endTime":2609.261,"body":"and more from a variety of sources."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2609.311,"endTime":2612.921,"body":"And, you know, of course, she outlines"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2609.311,"endTime":2612.921,"body":"a pretty wide range of tools in this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2612.921,"endTime":2616.891,"body":"space, you know, and all the big players"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2612.921,"endTime":2616.891,"body":"are out there like GitHub, Amazon."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2617.381,"endTime":2619.821,"body":"There's this newer company"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2617.381,"endTime":2619.821,"body":"that's emerged called Kodo."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2620.398,"endTime":2624.248,"body":"But it almost feels like, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2620.398,"endTime":2624.248,"body":"There's probably an overproliferation of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2624.248,"endTime":2626.198,"body":"tools that are emerging in this space."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2626.508,"endTime":2629.908,"body":"so what recommendations do you have"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2626.508,"endTime":2629.908,"body":"for engineering leaders who, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2629.908,"endTime":2632.558,"body":"know, are, are in a situation where"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2629.908,"endTime":2632.558,"body":"they're trying to navigate this new"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2632.558,"endTime":2636.278,"body":"and experimental technology space"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2632.558,"endTime":2636.278,"body":"that is potentially overproliferated?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2637.481,"endTime":2641.721,"body":"mean, the other thing about"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2637.481,"endTime":2641.721,"body":"it is there's a ton of money from"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2641.761,"endTime":2646.731,"body":"investors going into this agentic AI,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2641.761,"endTime":2646.731,"body":"like the amount of startup companies, the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2646.731,"endTime":2648.501,"body":"billions of dollars that's being invested."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2648.501,"endTime":2651.651,"body":"So you're going to see like a long tail."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2652.166,"endTime":2656.106,"body":"of companies that are doing something,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2652.166,"endTime":2656.106,"body":"let's say in this space, but I thought"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2656.106,"endTime":2660.626,"body":"Birgitta made like a really good point"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2656.106,"endTime":2660.626,"body":"that it's more about the use case."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2660.626,"endTime":2663.026,"body":"Like what does Engetic AI really mean?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2663.456,"endTime":2664.686,"body":"It's more about the use case."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2664.686,"endTime":2666.436,"body":"But here's what I can tell you."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2667.234,"endTime":2671.284,"body":"Especially if you're like a mid"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2667.234,"endTime":2671.284,"body":"size or maybe an enterprise."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2671.854,"endTime":2673.014,"body":"type engineering team."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2673.054,"endTime":2675.854,"body":"It's totally worth deploying people."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2675.854,"endTime":2681.064,"body":"So resources, I believe in being up"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2675.854,"endTime":2681.064,"body":"to date on the latest technology."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2681.064,"endTime":2685.434,"body":"This technology is changing all"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2681.064,"endTime":2685.434,"body":"the time, but I do think it's worth"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2685.434,"endTime":2688.564,"body":"saying, okay, let's pick a few."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2688.584,"endTime":2692.754,"body":"And I have a few examples of these,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2688.584,"endTime":2692.754,"body":"Ben, but let's pick a few, maybe"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2692.764,"endTime":2697.906,"body":"down to earth use cases that we"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2692.764,"endTime":2697.906,"body":"want to be really, really good at."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2698.146,"endTime":2702.026,"body":"It could be, again, like I'll say,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2698.146,"endTime":2702.026,"body":"something as easy as I want to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2702.026,"endTime":2707.781,"body":"make sure every pull request has"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2702.026,"endTime":2707.781,"body":"the right An accurate description,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2708.021,"endTime":2709.861,"body":"standardized every single time."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2709.901,"endTime":2710.221,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2710.221,"endTime":2711.521,"body":"We want to go make that happen."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2711.991,"endTime":2713.531,"body":"I think we can go make that happen."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2713.961,"endTime":2719.001,"body":"Then I think there's a long tail of"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2713.961,"endTime":2719.001,"body":"maybe other experimentation like test"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2719.001,"endTime":2721.421,"body":"creation or something with code creation."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2721.421,"endTime":2722.831,"body":"I think Birgitta was saying even."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2723.111,"endTime":2727.751,"body":"in her situation when she was doing the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2723.111,"endTime":2727.751,"body":"test creation, it kind of depends on the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2727.751,"endTime":2729.921,"body":"code being used and the architecture."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2729.951,"endTime":2732.321,"body":"Okay, maybe you do some"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2729.951,"endTime":2732.321,"body":"experimentation there."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2732.901,"endTime":2735.901,"body":"But the first thing that I would"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2732.901,"endTime":2735.901,"body":"suggest is I do believe it's worth"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2735.901,"endTime":2738.841,"body":"it to have a few people on your"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2735.901,"endTime":2738.841,"body":"team looking into this stuff."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2738.841,"endTime":2743.481,"body":"And I would pick a very down to earth use"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2738.841,"endTime":2743.481,"body":"case, something around standardization."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2743.481,"endTime":2744.331,"body":"That's what I would do."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2744.721,"endTime":2749.201,"body":"And then maybe start dabbling with the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2744.721,"endTime":2749.201,"body":"long tail of, companies that are coming"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2749.201,"endTime":2751.171,"body":"out with the more Innovative use cases."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2752.479,"endTime":2755.079,"body":"specifically for you,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2752.479,"endTime":2755.079,"body":"like, what are you most excited about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2755.089,"endTime":2759.199,"body":"for the, these generative AI capabilities"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2755.089,"endTime":2759.199,"body":"and integrations that are coming out?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2759.199,"endTime":2762.379,"body":"Like, what do you think is the coolest"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2759.199,"endTime":2762.379,"body":"new stuff that's hitting the market?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2762.832,"endTime":2765.092,"body":"I'm going to give"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2762.832,"endTime":2765.092,"body":"you like, two versions of this."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2765.092,"endTime":2766.872,"body":"One is going to be more down to earth."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2766.872,"endTime":2770.482,"body":"And then one is just something that"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2766.872,"endTime":2770.482,"body":"I've been thinking about specifically"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2770.482,"endTime":2773.272,"body":"at LinearB and like what we're"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2770.482,"endTime":2773.272,"body":"doing with our, our customers."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2774.202,"endTime":2779.742,"body":"Like I said throughout like all of this,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2774.202,"endTime":2779.742,"body":"what your business is going to ask you"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2779.742,"endTime":2784.742,"body":"for is, okay, you're dabbling, you're"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2779.742,"endTime":2784.742,"body":"spending money on all of this AI stuff."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2784.782,"endTime":2787.052,"body":"What is the business impact for us?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2787.072,"endTime":2790.967,"body":"Otherwise, I'm not really sure"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2787.072,"endTime":2790.967,"body":"why we're doing all of this."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2791.737,"endTime":2795.927,"body":"I believe that standardization"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2791.737,"endTime":2795.927,"body":"is a really good place to start."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2795.977,"endTime":2799.927,"body":"Again, if you're an enterprise or more"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2795.977,"endTime":2799.927,"body":"like a mid market customer, meaning"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2799.927,"endTime":2804.867,"body":"you have a good amount of developers,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2799.927,"endTime":2804.867,"body":"standardization end to end is something"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2804.867,"endTime":2806.547,"body":"that's been, I think, pretty difficult."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2806.577,"endTime":2810.577,"body":"And I think AI is very good at"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2806.577,"endTime":2810.577,"body":"helping with standardization."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2810.577,"endTime":2815.792,"body":"So when I say that, I mean, Start with"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2810.577,"endTime":2815.792,"body":"the pull request review, AI based review."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2815.822,"endTime":2819.392,"body":"Make sure every PR is going"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2815.822,"endTime":2819.392,"body":"through at least an AI review."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2819.392,"endTime":2821.252,"body":"So you have a baseline of review."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2821.772,"endTime":2824.882,"body":"Make sure every pull request"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2821.772,"endTime":2824.882,"body":"has a good description."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2824.882,"endTime":2828.222,"body":"You might have developers working in"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2824.882,"endTime":2828.222,"body":"all different languages from different."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2828.642,"endTime":2828.872,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2828.872,"endTime":2829.192,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2829.192,"endTime":2831.932,"body":"Make sure every single PR"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2829.192,"endTime":2831.932,"body":"has a good description."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2831.932,"endTime":2833.912,"body":"It goes through a review."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2834.132,"endTime":2837.852,"body":"Pick a few things that are standard"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2834.132,"endTime":2837.852,"body":"that you know, you can deploy to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2837.852,"endTime":2841.567,"body":"all All of your developers and"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2837.852,"endTime":2841.567,"body":"you guarantee business impact."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2841.757,"endTime":2843.047,"body":"That's the first thing that I would do."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2844.027,"endTime":2847.297,"body":"Now, the second thing is a little"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2844.027,"endTime":2847.297,"body":"more out there and it's start some"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2847.297,"endTime":2851.211,"body":"of the things that we're starting"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2847.297,"endTime":2851.211,"body":"to experiment within LinearB."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2851.811,"endTime":2855.101,"body":"And I think the next step,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2851.811,"endTime":2855.101,"body":"actually, uh, Birgitta might've,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2855.101,"endTime":2856.601,"body":"might've actually, mentioned it."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2856.651,"endTime":2858.771,"body":"It's having like the right context."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2859.151,"endTime":2861.011,"body":"And I'll try to explain what that means."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2861.706,"endTime":2865.926,"body":"Think about having, AI be"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2861.706,"endTime":2865.926,"body":"able to look at not just."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2866.326,"endTime":2871.516,"body":"Code, like your local code, but also"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2866.326,"endTime":2871.516,"body":"have it being able to look at like JIRA,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2871.646,"endTime":2874.116,"body":"like your project management situation."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2874.156,"endTime":2877.536,"body":"Also have it being able to look"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2874.156,"endTime":2877.536,"body":"at your deployment information."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2877.866,"endTime":2881.766,"body":"Also have it being able to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2877.866,"endTime":2881.766,"body":"look at your customer, like bug"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2881.776,"endTime":2883.606,"body":"requests, your support queue."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2884.766,"endTime":2888.426,"body":"What we're experimenting with, because"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2884.766,"endTime":2888.426,"body":"right now a lot of the things that I"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2888.436,"endTime":2892.506,"body":"see with AI, they might be looking like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2888.436,"endTime":2892.506,"body":"at just the pull requests or just your"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2892.506,"endTime":2894.426,"body":"local code base or something like that."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2894.426,"endTime":2899.546,"body":"But I think the next step is Let me give"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2894.426,"endTime":2899.546,"body":"you full business context end to end."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2899.836,"endTime":2902.656,"body":"I can see everything that's going"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2899.836,"endTime":2902.656,"body":"on in code, everything that's going"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2902.656,"endTime":2906.126,"body":"on in projects, everything that's"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2902.656,"endTime":2906.126,"body":"going on in releases, everything"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2906.126,"endTime":2907.446,"body":"that's going on in support."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2908.166,"endTime":2912.266,"body":"Now I can provide you with something that"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2908.166,"endTime":2912.266,"body":"I think is a little more intelligent."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2912.276,"endTime":2917.186,"body":"So for example, if I have an AI code"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2912.276,"endTime":2917.186,"body":"review, let me confirm that it's"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2917.196,"endTime":2919.656,"body":"actually meeting the story requirements."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2920.456,"endTime":2921.316,"body":"That's pretty cool."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2921.316,"endTime":2924.306,"body":"I'm moving it from just"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2921.316,"endTime":2924.306,"body":"code to business value."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2924.666,"endTime":2930.026,"body":"Imagine a review saying, okay, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2924.666,"endTime":2930.026,"body":"we found some code base inaccuracies,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2930.466,"endTime":2935.006,"body":"but also, hey, I'm not sure that you"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2930.466,"endTime":2935.006,"body":"actually address, you know, bullet"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2935.006,"endTime":2937.396,"body":"point number five within this story."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2938.056,"endTime":2939.016,"body":"Take a look at that."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2939.496,"endTime":2941.336,"body":"Okay, now we're talking"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2939.496,"endTime":2941.336,"body":"about business value."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2941.346,"endTime":2945.901,"body":"Now think of it If the AI review came"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2941.346,"endTime":2945.901,"body":"back and said, and you know what?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2946.351,"endTime":2952.401,"body":"You also touched an area that we just had"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2946.351,"endTime":2952.401,"body":"five support tickets within the last week."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2952.891,"endTime":2956.711,"body":"So when I assign a human reviewer,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2952.891,"endTime":2956.711,"body":"I'd like them to focus on this"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2956.841,"endTime":2960.161,"body":"area because it's very sensitive"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2956.841,"endTime":2960.161,"body":"based on your support queue."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2961.081,"endTime":2966.321,"body":"So what I'm excited about, I think the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2961.081,"endTime":2966.321,"body":"next step is actually looking at the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2966.321,"endTime":2970.881,"body":"whole data set of the business or the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2966.321,"endTime":2970.881,"body":"end, like product delivery organization."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2971.241,"endTime":2973.951,"body":"I think that's where it's going"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2971.241,"endTime":2973.951,"body":"next so that we can actually make"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2973.951,"endTime":2975.911,"body":"the outputs of AI more intelligent."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2976.061,"endTime":2976.261,"body":"That's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2977.082,"endTime":2979.312,"body":"that full"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2977.082,"endTime":2979.312,"body":"business context, you know, I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2979.312,"endTime":2980.672,"body":"that's, that's really critical."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2980.735,"endTime":2985.285,"body":"you know, I'm imagining a world where"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2980.735,"endTime":2985.285,"body":"like a developer can come in and, You"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2985.285,"endTime":2989.455,"body":"know, not only do they have this AI"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2985.285,"endTime":2989.455,"body":"assistant for their code base, but"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2989.455,"endTime":2993.015,"body":"they even have like these AI coaches"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2989.455,"endTime":2993.015,"body":"that help them with, determining"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2993.035,"endTime":2996.505,"body":"like, what's the best, what's the best"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2993.035,"endTime":2996.505,"body":"thing for them to focus on right now?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2996.505,"endTime":3000.635,"body":"And not just like how to write good code,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2996.505,"endTime":3000.635,"body":"but like, you know, what's the task that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3000.655,"endTime":3002.165,"body":"you need to be focused on right now?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3002.165,"endTime":3004.545,"body":"Or what's the biggest challenge"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3002.165,"endTime":3004.545,"body":"that your team has today"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3004.545,"endTime":3006.175,"body":"that you can help solve with?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3006.175,"endTime":3009.08,"body":"And when you get that full"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3006.175,"endTime":3009.08,"body":"context, like that's when, Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3009.08,"endTime":3010.5,"body":"a lot really starts to happen."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3011.118,"endTime":3011.528,"body":"right."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3011.75,"endTime":3011.96,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3011.96,"endTime":3015.01,"body":"And if, and I think, you know, if we can"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3011.96,"endTime":3015.01,"body":"summarize this, it really feels like,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3015.02,"endTime":3017.9,"body":"you know, the, the, what engineering"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3015.02,"endTime":3017.9,"body":"leaders need to be thinking about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3017.9,"endTime":3021.71,"body":"right now is, You know, there are some"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3017.9,"endTime":3021.71,"body":"use cases out there that are clearly"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3021.9,"endTime":3024.16,"body":"impacting productivity in a positive way."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3024.55,"endTime":3029.054,"body":"and giving your, your team space to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3024.55,"endTime":3029.054,"body":"both adopt those use cases, but then"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3029.054,"endTime":3032.204,"body":"also start to experiment with some"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3029.054,"endTime":3032.204,"body":"of the other stuff that's emerging."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3032.514,"endTime":3036.124,"body":"You know, that's how you can both get"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3032.514,"endTime":3036.124,"body":"some of these productivity gains today"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3036.524,"endTime":3038.424,"body":"while also like setting yourself up."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3038.674,"endTime":3040.304,"body":"For the next wave of tools."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3040.972,"endTime":3041.632,"body":"Yeah, that's right."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3041.632,"endTime":3045.752,"body":"I mean like I really think like pick a"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3041.632,"endTime":3045.752,"body":"what I call a down to earth use case."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3045.752,"endTime":3048.762,"body":"Make sure you're delivering"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3045.752,"endTime":3048.762,"body":"business value, whatever it is."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3048.782,"endTime":3050.512,"body":"I suggest it's standardization."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3050.512,"endTime":3052.132,"body":"It might be something"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3050.512,"endTime":3052.132,"body":"else for your business."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3052.532,"endTime":3056.122,"body":"That's gonna give you a little more"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3052.532,"endTime":3056.122,"body":"leverage to start experimenting with"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3056.132,"endTime":3060.602,"body":"more on the edge stuff, multiple agents"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3056.132,"endTime":3060.602,"body":"working together to solve a story."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3060.602,"endTime":3064.162,"body":"There's a lot of cool things out there,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3060.602,"endTime":3064.162,"body":"but I think it starts with measuring"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3064.162,"endTime":3067.682,"body":"the impact and the business value"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3064.162,"endTime":3067.682,"body":"and that's gonna give you the leeway"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3067.682,"endTime":3069.352,"body":"for more of that experimentation."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3070.874,"endTime":3073.724,"body":"Well, that's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3070.874,"endTime":3073.724,"body":"a wrap on this week's episode."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3074.084,"endTime":3077.414,"body":"Thank you, Dan, for joining me"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3074.084,"endTime":3077.414,"body":"for this session here today."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3077.814,"endTime":3081.654,"body":"if you're hungry for more content"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3077.814,"endTime":3081.654,"body":"like this, join the over 18, 000"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3081.654,"endTime":3085.194,"body":"listeners who have already subscribed"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3081.654,"endTime":3085.194,"body":"to the Dev Interrupted sub stack."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3085.664,"endTime":3089.334,"body":"Each week we curate our favorite"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3085.664,"endTime":3089.334,"body":"newsworthy tech articles and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3089.334,"endTime":3091.22,"body":"do deep dives of the podcast."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3091.63,"endTime":3094.23,"body":"Uh, you can also find us on YouTube"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3091.63,"endTime":3094.23,"body":"where we post all of our favorite"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3094.23,"endTime":3099.099,"body":"moments from  And hit us up on Twitter"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3094.23,"endTime":3099.099,"body":"or LinkedIn at Dev Interrupted to let us"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3099.099,"endTime":3101.729,"body":"know how your teams are using AI tooling."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3101.819,"endTime":3103.369,"body":"You know, what's working, what isn't."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3103.839,"endTime":3105.809,"body":"And let us know what you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3103.839,"endTime":3105.809,"body":"think of this new show format."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3106.132,"endTime":3109.549,"body":"We'd love your feedback think this is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3106.132,"endTime":3109.549,"body":"a fun experiment so we hope you agree."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3109.969,"endTime":3111.409,"body":"Thanks everyone, we'll see you next week."}]}