{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":9.593,"endTime":10.123,"body":"Hey everyone."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":10.293,"endTime":14.953,"body":"I'm your host, Ben Lloyd Pearson, director"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":10.293,"endTime":14.953,"body":"of developer experience here at LinearB."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":15.253,"endTime":19.983,"body":"And today I'm excited to be joined by"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":15.253,"endTime":19.983,"body":"Erin Yepis senior analyst of market"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":19.993,"endTime":22.063,"body":"research and insights at Stack Overflow."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":22.083,"endTime":23.903,"body":"So Erin, thank you for joining us today."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":24.754,"endTime":26.044,"body":"Thank you for having me."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":26.204,"endTime":28.844,"body":"And,  I wanted to make a quick mention."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":29.344,"endTime":35.094,"body":"I love the name of this podcast and I"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":29.344,"endTime":35.094,"body":"have listened to a couple of episodes and"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":35.274,"endTime":37.214,"body":"I like the content of this podcast too."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":37.294,"endTime":37.794,"body":"Wonderful."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":37.804,"endTime":40.394,"body":"I always love getting a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":37.804,"endTime":40.394,"body":"compliment at the start of my day."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":41.197,"endTime":42.057,"body":"So thank you for that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":42.547,"endTime":46.322,"body":"so I wanted to bring you on because,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":42.547,"endTime":46.322,"body":"Stack Overflow has this developer"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":46.322,"endTime":48.412,"body":"survey that comes out every year."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":48.802,"endTime":51.342,"body":"And we'll have a link to that in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":48.802,"endTime":51.342,"body":"our show notes for our audience."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":51.632,"endTime":54.672,"body":"But I heard you actually on"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":51.632,"endTime":54.672,"body":"another podcast discussing this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":54.672,"endTime":57.522,"body":"survey and just felt like we had"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":54.672,"endTime":57.522,"body":"to get you on because it's such"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":57.522,"endTime":60.202,"body":"a relevant topic to our audience."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":60.532,"endTime":63.512,"body":"In particular, like we think"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":60.532,"endTime":63.512,"body":"about, developer productivity,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":63.522,"endTime":66.902,"body":"developer experience, like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":63.522,"endTime":66.902,"body":"those really come to mind a lot."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":67.402,"endTime":71.952,"body":"And I think there were some like pretty"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":67.402,"endTime":71.952,"body":"fascinating and maybe even alarming"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":72.022,"endTime":76.798,"body":"takeaways about developer happiness"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":72.022,"endTime":76.798,"body":"and job satisfaction I was really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":76.798,"endTime":80.598,"body":"looking at like the professional"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":76.798,"endTime":80.598,"body":"developers section of the survey."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":80.598,"endTime":83.668,"body":"Cause you know, a lot of our"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":80.598,"endTime":83.668,"body":"audience are people who do software"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":83.668,"endTime":84.818,"body":"development professionally."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":85.278,"endTime":88.713,"body":"And the thing that really stood out"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":85.278,"endTime":88.713,"body":"to me was the, Alright, one of the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":88.713,"endTime":93.513,"body":"findings that said that only about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":88.713,"endTime":93.513,"body":"1 in 5 professional developers are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":93.543,"endTime":95.813,"body":"currently happy with their job."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":96.447,"endTime":97.807,"body":"can you break that down for us?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":97.807,"endTime":100.537,"body":"What does this tell you and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":97.807,"endTime":100.537,"body":"what does that number mean?"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":101.579,"endTime":102.169,"body":"Definitely."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":102.189,"endTime":105.419,"body":"And,  I'm happy to talk about this"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":102.189,"endTime":105.419,"body":"because this is a new question"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":105.529,"endTime":107.709,"body":"this year for the 2024 survey."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":108.294,"endTime":112.494,"body":"Part of my job,  looking at the"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":108.294,"endTime":112.494,"body":"survey responses is to figure"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":112.494,"endTime":114.694,"body":"out the why behind the numbers."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":115.494,"endTime":118.524,"body":"And so this new question"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":115.494,"endTime":118.524,"body":"gave us an opportunity to."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":118.854,"endTime":123.294,"body":"We also look at our community, which"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":118.854,"endTime":123.294,"body":"we also, our community is mostly"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":124.224,"endTime":125.734,"body":"professional developers as well."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":126.494,"endTime":128.244,"body":"And then ask them how"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":126.494,"endTime":128.244,"body":"they feel about work."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":128.594,"endTime":132.974,"body":"We have, we've run surveys in"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":128.594,"endTime":132.974,"body":"the past where we ask directly,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":133.024,"endTime":135.284,"body":"developers how their jobs are going."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":135.824,"endTime":139.614,"body":"We ask them,   some questions"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":135.824,"endTime":139.614,"body":"about what do you look for when"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":139.614,"endTime":141.164,"body":"you're searching for a new job?"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":141.404,"endTime":144.284,"body":"What are some of the reasons why"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":141.404,"endTime":144.284,"body":"you might leave your current job?"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":144.724,"endTime":147.814,"body":"But this would be the first"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":144.724,"endTime":147.814,"body":"time we're asking just blanket"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":147.814,"endTime":149.254,"body":"statement, umbrella statement."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":150.134,"endTime":151.584,"body":"Are you happy with your current job?"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":152.024,"endTime":153.894,"body":"So I definitely thought"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":152.024,"endTime":153.894,"body":"it was really cool."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":154.344,"endTime":158.224,"body":"And so also we know in the"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":154.344,"endTime":158.224,"body":"background,  of a lot of the research"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":158.224,"endTime":161.364,"body":"we've been doing too, that there's"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":158.224,"endTime":161.364,"body":"been disruptions in the industry."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":161.794,"endTime":166.354,"body":"So it was top of mind as far as like"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":161.794,"endTime":166.354,"body":"the satisfaction goes, job satisfaction."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":167.044,"endTime":171.734,"body":"For this question in particular, we"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":167.044,"endTime":171.734,"body":"used a NPS style scale for, which"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":171.734,"endTime":176.714,"body":"means users could select from zero to"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":171.734,"endTime":176.714,"body":"10, happy, unhappy,  10 being happy."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":177.024,"endTime":179.444,"body":"The NPS style I thought was a good."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":179.464,"endTime":182.276,"body":"I'm not sure if there's another option"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":179.464,"endTime":182.276,"body":"for this question, because unlike the"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":182.306,"endTime":187.432,"body":"Likert scale, which is five options,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":182.306,"endTime":187.432,"body":"the NPS,   relies a little bit more"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":187.482,"endTime":192.372,"body":"on the normal distribution, assuming"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":187.482,"endTime":192.372,"body":"that a lot of people are going to be"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":192.372,"endTime":193.902,"body":"picking something closer to the middle."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":194.556,"endTime":201.806,"body":"That way, if you are categorized as"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":194.556,"endTime":201.806,"body":"a promoter or happy developer in this"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":201.806,"endTime":205.156,"body":"scenario, you selected nine or 10."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":205.966,"endTime":209.686,"body":"And I also like this too, because"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":205.966,"endTime":209.686,"body":"so for anyone that was maybe a"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":209.686,"endTime":211.226,"body":"little wishy washy on the fans."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":212.271,"endTime":215.701,"body":"It's like saying, if you're"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":212.271,"endTime":215.701,"body":"not a hell yes, you're a no."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":216.387,"endTime":219.737,"body":"I thought it was, yeah, sometimes the"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":216.387,"endTime":219.737,"body":"surveys with a qualitative approach,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":220.027,"endTime":224.817,"body":"you have to be a little bit tricky"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":220.027,"endTime":224.817,"body":"in order to get the real scoop."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":225.349,"endTime":225.649,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":225.709,"endTime":226.399,"body":"Interesting."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":226.852,"endTime":230.292,"body":"it's surprising to me seeing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":226.852,"endTime":230.292,"body":"that, I think that same number was"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":230.292,"endTime":234.249,"body":"about almost a third of developers"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":230.292,"endTime":234.249,"body":"were   unhappy with their work."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":234.299,"endTime":236.839,"body":"So there's a, there definitely"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":234.299,"endTime":236.839,"body":"seems like there's this large."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":237.184,"endTime":240.314,"body":"Volume that's in the middle, I think the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":237.184,"endTime":240.314,"body":"word you used in the survey to describe"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":240.314,"endTime":241.974,"body":"it was complacent with their jobs."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":242.524,"endTime":247.294,"body":"It's just surprising to see that 80"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":242.524,"endTime":247.294,"body":"percent of developers basically are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":247.384,"endTime":249.384,"body":"really not engaged with their work."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":249.394,"endTime":253.104,"body":"And to me that, that goes against"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":249.394,"endTime":253.104,"body":"my perception of the field, cause"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":253.104,"endTime":255.974,"body":"I know it is   but, at the same"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":253.104,"endTime":255.974,"body":"time it's a pretty good job to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":255.974,"endTime":257.384,"body":"have, being a software developer."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":257.384,"endTime":260.744,"body":"So you would I personally expect it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":257.384,"endTime":260.744,"body":"to be very different, not necessarily"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":260.744,"endTime":264.654,"body":"like developers all being super excited"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":260.744,"endTime":264.654,"body":"about their job, but, seeing only one"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":264.654,"endTime":269.404,"body":"in five, like really engaged, another"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":264.654,"endTime":269.404,"body":"interesting aspect of this was that,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":269.494,"endTime":272.984,"body":"their managers actually weren't, Even"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":269.494,"endTime":272.984,"body":"much happier because I think that number"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":272.984,"endTime":277.615,"body":"was a little bit closer to one in four"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":272.984,"endTime":277.615,"body":"managers are happy with their work."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":277.815,"endTime":280.045,"body":"It seems like they're similar,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":277.815,"endTime":280.045,"body":"but still a little different."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":280.055,"endTime":281.275,"body":"Do you think there's anything to that?"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":282.853,"endTime":283.913,"body":"Yes, I do."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":283.933,"endTime":288.593,"body":"So I think that,  and as far as"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":283.933,"endTime":288.593,"body":"just to go back to your comment"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":288.593,"endTime":294.713,"body":"about the expectations, Gallup"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":288.593,"endTime":294.713,"body":"also put out a similar poll, not"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":294.713,"endTime":297.233,"body":"just for software developers."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":297.753,"endTime":303.493,"body":"But a global poll on engagement at"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":297.753,"endTime":303.493,"body":"work, and it was also pretty low."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":303.893,"endTime":307.423,"body":"So I definitely, the number"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":303.893,"endTime":307.423,"body":"seems believable to me."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":307.823,"endTime":309.573,"body":"It is a little rough."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":309.883,"endTime":312.953,"body":"I've seen a couple of Reddit"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":309.883,"endTime":312.953,"body":"threads where people go into."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":313.688,"endTime":318.668,"body":"into depth of how they really feel"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":313.688,"endTime":318.668,"body":"about work and specifically about this,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":318.708,"endTime":320.398,"body":"the staff from the developer survey."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":320.958,"endTime":325.358,"body":"I was able to, I can tell you that I"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":320.958,"endTime":325.358,"body":"looked at, I wanted to look at the,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":325.398,"endTime":327.528,"body":"the numbers in relation to salary."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":328.423,"endTime":333.813,"body":"As a hypothesis might be that salary had"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":328.423,"endTime":333.813,"body":"something to do with job satisfaction."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":333.833,"endTime":339.463,"body":"So I was able to see that"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":333.833,"endTime":339.463,"body":"expectedly salary is correlated"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":339.503,"endTime":343.473,"body":"with satisfaction across,  globally,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":339.503,"endTime":343.473,"body":"not just in the United States."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":344.193,"endTime":346.183,"body":"But this relationship was."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":346.733,"endTime":349.073,"body":"More or less strong in certain countries."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":349.933,"endTime":353.463,"body":"when I looked at the top 10 countries"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":349.933,"endTime":353.463,"body":"that responded to the developer"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":353.463,"endTime":359.533,"body":"survey, I saw that most happy"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":353.463,"endTime":359.533,"body":"developers are definitely in above"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":359.553,"endTime":361.883,"body":"the 50, 50th percentile for salary."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":363.013,"endTime":367.843,"body":"And,  developers in the Netherlands"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":363.013,"endTime":367.843,"body":"in particular, regardless of whatever"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":367.843,"endTime":373.963,"body":"percentile salary they were in, their job"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":367.843,"endTime":373.963,"body":"satisfaction scores stayed consistent."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":374.063,"endTime":377.573,"body":"So they were less swayed by"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":374.063,"endTime":377.573,"body":"higher or lower salaries."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":378.333,"endTime":382.698,"body":"However, those developers that were"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":378.333,"endTime":382.698,"body":"in Brazil or France, were definitely"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":382.708,"endTime":385.728,"body":"more swayed by higher salaries."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":386.828,"endTime":392.598,"body":"I also looked at, as far as countries"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":386.828,"endTime":392.598,"body":"and the effect of workplace setting,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":393.208,"endTime":398.932,"body":"interestingly enough, Germany, India,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":393.208,"endTime":398.932,"body":"and the UK, we saw their job satisfaction"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":398.932,"endTime":404.872,"body":"scores were more affected if they"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":398.932,"endTime":404.872,"body":"had, were in a lower salary percentile"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":404.902,"endTime":407.082,"body":"and also In person work setting."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":408.132,"endTime":413.462,"body":"And then just going back to you, also your"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":408.132,"endTime":413.462,"body":"comment about the managers, the people"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":413.462,"endTime":419.402,"body":"managers, engineering managers, as far"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":413.462,"endTime":419.402,"body":"as the role goes, had some of the highest"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":419.402,"endTime":425.242,"body":"job satisfaction scores of all of the"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":419.402,"endTime":425.242,"body":"roles that we asked about in the survey."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":425.842,"endTime":430.732,"body":"So regardless of their pay,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":425.842,"endTime":430.732,"body":"their job satisfaction scores"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":430.732,"endTime":432.472,"body":"didn't really move that much."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":433.092,"endTime":435.212,"body":"The same goes for non people managers."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":435.867,"endTime":439.837,"body":"Data Engineers, Desktop Developers,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":435.867,"endTime":439.837,"body":"and Embedded Developers."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":440.697,"endTime":445.147,"body":"Their job satisfaction scores stayed"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":440.697,"endTime":445.147,"body":"pretty consistent regardless of their pay."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":446.055,"endTime":446.545,"body":"Interesting."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":446.605,"endTime":452.185,"body":"There's almost like a anthropological"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":446.605,"endTime":452.185,"body":"study to be done here on the differences"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":452.185,"endTime":456.875,"body":"of all these cultures and how they"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":452.185,"endTime":456.875,"body":"view happiness and Within the microcosm"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":456.875,"endTime":458.355,"body":"of the software developer universe."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":459.578,"endTime":462.348,"body":"Yeah, you've heard"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":459.578,"endTime":462.348,"body":"about, I think Germany takes"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":462.348,"endTime":464.108,"body":"their time off very seriously."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":464.855,"endTime":466.865,"body":"I would expect the Netherlands does too."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":466.925,"endTime":470.356,"body":"Also, the Netherlands, I'm"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":466.925,"endTime":470.356,"body":"sure when you go into the"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":470.356,"endTime":472.138,"body":"office, it's like a nice place."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":472.138,"endTime":473.623,"body":"It's, maybe there's water nearby."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":473.623,"endTime":474.811,"body":"And you brought your"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":474.811,"endTime":475.702,"body":"bike to work."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":475.702,"endTime":476.296,"body":"Yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":476.296,"endTime":477.484,"body":"think there's something there."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":477.484,"endTime":477.781,"body":"www."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":478.239,"endTime":478.429,"body":"yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":478.429,"endTime":482.189,"body":"I definitely, my sense of working with"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":478.429,"endTime":482.189,"body":"a lot of companies in the Netherlands"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":482.189,"endTime":486.959,"body":"is that,  they definitely are more"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":482.189,"endTime":486.959,"body":"like office centric, like everyone"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":486.959,"endTime":489.169,"body":"bikes into work to the same place."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":489.169,"endTime":494.319,"body":"They, the, there's a lot of benefits that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":489.169,"endTime":494.319,"body":"Dutch citizens get, so I think it does"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":494.369,"endTime":498.339,"body":"make a lot of sense And you mentioned that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":494.369,"endTime":498.339,"body":"there, there aren't previous, this is the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":498.339,"endTime":499.669,"body":"first time you've asked this question."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":499.669,"endTime":503.329,"body":"So there aren't previous years to compare"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":499.669,"endTime":503.329,"body":"this to, but I wonder if there are any"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":503.329,"endTime":507.319,"body":"other,  data points that you've measured"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":503.329,"endTime":507.319,"body":"in the past that we can maybe see if"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":507.319,"endTime":508.989,"body":"there is some sort of trend happening."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":509.039,"endTime":510.629,"body":"Is this a post pandemic thing?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":510.649,"endTime":512.739,"body":"Is it something that's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":510.649,"endTime":512.739,"body":"always been consistent?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":512.879,"endTime":514.759,"body":"Do you have any sort of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":512.879,"endTime":514.759,"body":"indication like that?"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":516.111,"endTime":516.711,"body":"Definitely."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":516.751,"endTime":520.551,"body":"The closest thing I have, like I"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":516.751,"endTime":520.551,"body":"mentioned, were the job surveys that"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":520.551,"endTime":522.461,"body":"we've done,  for Stack Overflow."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":522.471,"endTime":528.471,"body":"We have specifically the ones"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":522.471,"endTime":528.471,"body":"that we did in 2022 and 2023."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":528.551,"endTime":535.134,"body":"We ask developers to tell us,  of"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":528.551,"endTime":535.134,"body":"all of these facets of work, what"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":535.134,"endTime":536.504,"body":"are the most important ones to you?"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":536.894,"endTime":542.204,"body":"in both 2022 and 2023,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":536.894,"endTime":542.204,"body":"flexibility, Ranked higher."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":542.224,"endTime":546.124,"body":"It ranked absolutely the"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":542.224,"endTime":546.124,"body":"highest in 2023,  over salary."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":547.294,"endTime":548.304,"body":"So salary is up there."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":548.304,"endTime":549.624,"body":"Salary has always been important."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":550.239,"endTime":551.849,"body":"The flexibility was up there."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":552.049,"endTime":555.939,"body":"And then rounding out the top"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":552.049,"endTime":555.939,"body":"three,  learning opportunities"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":555.969,"endTime":557.759,"body":"always comes up pretty high too."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":558.289,"endTime":565.279,"body":"So I definitely expected salary to be as"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":558.289,"endTime":565.279,"body":"anyone would salary makes a difference"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":565.279,"endTime":569.959,"body":"as far as if you're happy with your"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":565.279,"endTime":569.959,"body":"work, but because of COVID, I thought."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":570.439,"endTime":574.609,"body":"The workplace setting and flexibility,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":570.439,"endTime":574.609,"body":"being able to pick up your kids,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":574.939,"endTime":579.009,"body":"taking time off if you're sick,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":574.939,"endTime":579.009,"body":"that, that was more important too."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":579.529,"endTime":584.379,"body":"So we can see in the developer survey"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":579.529,"endTime":584.379,"body":"that there are, it's a slight shift"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":584.379,"endTime":588.419,"body":"away from fully remote positions to"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":584.379,"endTime":588.419,"body":"hybrid positions, which we would expect."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":588.789,"endTime":593.749,"body":"Not a big jump in person,  work"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":588.789,"endTime":593.749,"body":"settings for developers, but we do"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":593.749,"endTime":595.319,"body":"know that there is a big difference."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":595.704,"endTime":598.434,"body":"Year over year for salary globally."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":598.904,"endTime":604.444,"body":"And I think that is our job"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":598.904,"endTime":604.444,"body":"survey results combined with"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":604.444,"endTime":606.684,"body":"what we see in the salary trends."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":607.309,"endTime":609.859,"body":"Is what makes me think that's the"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":607.309,"endTime":609.859,"body":"biggest thing we have to compare."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":609.867,"endTime":610.797,"body":"Yeah, interesting."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":610.817,"endTime":614.597,"body":"And I wonder if, COVID pandemic"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":610.817,"endTime":614.597,"body":"may have made that type of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":614.597,"endTime":616.377,"body":"flexibility more commonplace."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":616.387,"endTime":619.807,"body":"So now it's just assumed that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":616.387,"endTime":619.807,"body":"it's a part of, opportunity, like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":619.807,"endTime":621.257,"body":"new jobs a developer might take."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":621.257,"endTime":624.927,"body":"To them that, may still be very important,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":621.257,"endTime":624.927,"body":"but they just don't think about it versus"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":624.927,"endTime":629.327,"body":"salary, particularly given that, we are in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":624.927,"endTime":629.327,"body":"a bit of an inflationary environment, does"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":630.337,"endTime":633.197,"body":"mimic some like macro trends in a way."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":634.084,"endTime":638.144,"body":"Is there any other insights that you think"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":634.084,"endTime":638.144,"body":"that we're getting from this into why"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":638.344,"endTime":640.974,"body":"developer satisfaction might be so low?"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":642.445,"endTime":647.247,"body":"I think going back the"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":642.445,"endTime":647.247,"body":"roles, the salary percentiles and the"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":647.247,"endTime":653.237,"body":"country trends we saw among the happy"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":647.247,"endTime":653.237,"body":"and unhappy developers,  We know that"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":653.417,"endTime":657.447,"body":"our, at least I was able to see that"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":653.417,"endTime":657.447,"body":"amongst engineering managers, like"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":657.447,"endTime":662.557,"body":"I said, who generally had a higher"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":657.447,"endTime":662.557,"body":"job satisfaction than any other role."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":663.047,"endTime":668.007,"body":"And it wasn't swayed as much by salary"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":663.047,"endTime":668.007,"body":"or country,  that they overwhelmingly"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":668.017,"endTime":673.457,"body":"indicate that compared to other job"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":668.017,"endTime":673.457,"body":"roles, that driving strategy is a"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":673.457,"endTime":679.327,"body":"factor in what they like about their"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":673.457,"endTime":679.327,"body":"job, which again, yeah,   separately,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":679.567,"endTime":684.097,"body":"With the job satisfaction question,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":679.567,"endTime":684.097,"body":"we asked what factors contribute"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":684.097,"endTime":685.707,"body":"to your being satisfied at work."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":686.207,"endTime":691.317,"body":"So overwhelmingly, we know that most"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":686.207,"endTime":691.317,"body":"developers,  indicated that improving"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":691.317,"endTime":696.147,"body":"quality code was what they most"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":691.317,"endTime":696.147,"body":"found enjoyable about their work."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":696.867,"endTime":699.617,"body":"But yeah, so driving strategy"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":696.867,"endTime":699.617,"body":"for those engineering managers."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":699.757,"endTime":704.367,"body":"And then,  they also indicated"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":699.757,"endTime":704.367,"body":"overwhelmingly that Being a power"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":704.367,"endTime":707.127,"body":"user was less important to them."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":707.697,"endTime":713.067,"body":"So I think that, and then, so to go"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":707.697,"endTime":713.067,"body":"along that with those roles, embedded"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":713.067,"endTime":719.317,"body":"developers, they highly rate improving"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":713.067,"endTime":719.317,"body":"code quality higher than the average"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":719.577,"endTime":724.817,"body":"developer,  I think the desktop"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":719.577,"endTime":724.817,"body":"developers also, they highly rate"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":724.817,"endTime":727.547,"body":"contributing to open source code."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":728.317,"endTime":732.627,"body":"I think what that shows is that certain"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":728.317,"endTime":732.627,"body":"people get into the game for a reason."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":732.627,"endTime":733.457,"body":"They find their niche."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":733.977,"endTime":737.407,"body":"And then if they're able to really"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":733.977,"endTime":737.407,"body":"play around in that area, that"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":737.407,"endTime":741.687,"body":"thing that makes them happy,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":737.407,"endTime":741.687,"body":"improving quality code, driving"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":741.687,"endTime":744.976,"body":"strategy,  Oh, embedded developers."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":745.921,"endTime":748.781,"body":"Also really liked working"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":745.921,"endTime":748.781,"body":"with high quality hardware."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":748.831,"endTime":749.711,"body":"Makes sense, right?"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":750.021,"endTime":752.031,"body":"So we actually have numbers"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":750.021,"endTime":752.031,"body":"to go with that with something"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":752.031,"endTime":753.691,"body":"that intuitively makes sense."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":754.191,"endTime":758.751,"body":"But there's some of these questions"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":754.191,"endTime":758.751,"body":"that,  we don't get a chance to directly"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":758.761,"endTime":761.971,"body":"ask, especially to an audience this big,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":758.761,"endTime":761.971,"body":"and now we have data to back that up."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":762.654,"endTime":765.964,"body":"Yeah, I like the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":762.654,"endTime":765.964,"body":"insight about engineering leaders"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":766.014,"endTime":769.564,"body":"or the managers wanting to be"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":766.014,"endTime":769.564,"body":"more focused on driving strategy."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":769.784,"endTime":772.494,"body":"And I think it actually makes a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":769.784,"endTime":772.494,"body":"lot of sense why that would be"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":772.594,"endTime":775.564,"body":"such a big focus area right now."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":775.564,"endTime":777.404,"body":"Because, you think about the last year."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":777.934,"endTime":780.494,"body":"Again, coming out of the pandemic,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":777.934,"endTime":780.494,"body":"we have all these companies that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":780.564,"endTime":783.954,"body":"overhired that, we're building up"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":780.564,"endTime":783.954,"body":"business during low interest rates"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":783.954,"endTime":785.884,"body":"and low interest rate environment."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":786.404,"endTime":787.364,"body":"And now they're."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":787.689,"endTime":791.279,"body":"We're hearing this from company after"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":787.689,"endTime":791.279,"body":"company where engineering teams are either"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":791.689,"endTime":796.639,"body":"doing the same with less or being expected"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":791.689,"endTime":796.639,"body":"to do more with the same rather than"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":796.639,"endTime":799.079,"body":"increasing head count to hit their goals."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":799.539,"endTime":803.739,"body":"And I think that's, that's, that makes it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":799.539,"endTime":803.739,"body":"really difficult to drive strategy, like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":803.739,"endTime":806.469,"body":"when you're in that kind of environment,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":803.739,"endTime":806.469,"body":"because you're more focused on just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":806.469,"endTime":809.119,"body":"keeping things operating rather than."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":809.199,"endTime":812.521,"body":"Being strategic, getting a little"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":809.199,"endTime":812.521,"body":"more into these factors that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":812.521,"endTime":814.691,"body":"contribute to job satisfaction."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":815.131,"endTime":819.311,"body":"you broke down a lot of things by,  like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":815.131,"endTime":819.311,"body":"things that contribute to happy points,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":819.331,"endTime":821.431,"body":"complacent points, unhappy points."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":821.971,"endTime":825.007,"body":"So what are the major takeaways"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":821.971,"endTime":825.007,"body":"that you've seen from that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":825.127,"endTime":826.837,"body":"section of the analysis?"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":828.2,"endTime":833.36,"body":"I think the improving"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":828.2,"endTime":833.36,"body":"quality code overall just came up as"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":833.39,"endTime":836.64,"body":"the top factor for job satisfaction."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":836.84,"endTime":837.34,"body":"And."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":838.58,"endTime":840.17,"body":"I definitely, that makes sense."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":840.21,"endTime":841.53,"body":"And we love to see that."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":842.35,"endTime":848.98,"body":"And again, so seeing that driving"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":842.35,"endTime":848.98,"body":"strategy actually made no difference"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":849.02,"endTime":851.35,"body":"to a lot of the developer roles."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":851.77,"endTime":852.34,"body":"Makes sense."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":852.37,"endTime":857.822,"body":"So there are people that kind of want"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":852.37,"endTime":857.822,"body":"to focus on improving quality code."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":858.152,"endTime":859.292,"body":"I don't want to drive strategy."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":859.322,"endTime":860.172,"body":"I want to do this thing."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":860.472,"endTime":861.362,"body":"I like to see that."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":861.452,"endTime":863.742,"body":"I like to see that difference"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":861.452,"endTime":863.742,"body":"amongst the different groups."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":864.092,"endTime":865.132,"body":"What was the other thing too?"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":865.132,"endTime":868.112,"body":"I saw, because again, the"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":865.132,"endTime":868.112,"body":"Netherlands just kept coming up."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":868.472,"endTime":869.492,"body":"The Netherlands."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":869.972,"endTime":874.836,"body":"So regardless of your, of the"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":869.972,"endTime":874.836,"body":"salary or your job satisfaction"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":874.836,"endTime":876.536,"body":"score, again, very consistent."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":876.906,"endTime":881.036,"body":"Netherlands developers highly rate,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":876.906,"endTime":881.036,"body":"designing architecture and environments."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":881.986,"endTime":883.176,"body":"Again, it makes sense."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":883.396,"endTime":883.936,"body":"I think."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":884.491,"endTime":886.361,"body":"There's definitely a bigger story here."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":886.391,"endTime":890.291,"body":"It has something to do with why"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":886.391,"endTime":890.291,"body":"you decided that this is what"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":890.291,"endTime":891.451,"body":"you're going to do for a job."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":892.301,"endTime":896.371,"body":"So there's so many different"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":892.301,"endTime":896.371,"body":"things to go dig into about that."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":896.391,"endTime":901.685,"body":"I like the idea of using this data to"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":896.391,"endTime":901.685,"body":"explore reasons, why you're going to"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":901.956,"endTime":907.838,"body":"For the why rather than focusing on the"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":901.956,"endTime":907.838,"body":"overall number, like doom and gloom."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":907.848,"endTime":912.248,"body":"This is terrible again, going back to some"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":907.848,"endTime":912.248,"body":"of those Reddit threads that I saw about"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":912.388,"endTime":916.868,"body":"these results, the one in five,  there"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":912.388,"endTime":916.868,"body":"are some types of people that are like."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":917.193,"endTime":919.653,"body":"They see that number and"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":917.193,"endTime":919.653,"body":"it's a confirmation bias."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":919.683,"endTime":921.963,"body":"Of course, everything is terrible."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":921.993,"endTime":923.153,"body":"Of course it's like this."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":923.713,"endTime":927.573,"body":"But that's not the reason to ask"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":923.713,"endTime":927.573,"body":"about this and to quantify it."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":927.583,"endTime":931.183,"body":"The reason to ask and quantify"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":927.583,"endTime":931.183,"body":"it is to find out why and to do"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":931.193,"endTime":932.273,"body":"something with that information."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":932.341,"endTime":933.021,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":933.021,"endTime":936.411,"body":"And I think the improving code"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":933.021,"endTime":936.411,"body":"quality, that comes up without"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":936.431,"endTime":938.741,"body":"like in our world a lot as well."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":938.741,"endTime":942.051,"body":"And I think it's part of this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":938.741,"endTime":942.051,"body":"challenge that,  virtually every single"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":942.051,"endTime":945.981,"body":"engineering team has, like they want"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":942.051,"endTime":945.981,"body":"to do things like reduce tech debt,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":946.001,"endTime":950.581,"body":"improve developer experience reduce like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":946.001,"endTime":950.581,"body":"toil and maintenance and all of that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":951.041,"endTime":953.691,"body":"And, but the problem is there's the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":951.041,"endTime":953.691,"body":"rest of the business that has all"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":953.691,"endTime":955.411,"body":"these priorities that are constantly."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":955.631,"endTime":959.341,"body":"Pressuring the engineering organization"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":955.631,"endTime":959.341,"body":"to deliver on,  it's like building"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":959.341,"endTime":963.281,"body":"new features, enhancing things,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":959.341,"endTime":963.281,"body":"building stuff for new enterprise,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":963.321,"endTime":964.931,"body":"large clients or whatever."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":965.53,"endTime":968.65,"body":"And a lot of engineering leaders, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":965.53,"endTime":968.65,"body":"think actually struggle to push back"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":968.71,"endTime":972.4,"body":"against the rest of the business"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":968.71,"endTime":972.4,"body":"to say,  we can dedicate, a certain"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":972.4,"endTime":974.99,"body":"percentage of our resources to solving."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":975.533,"endTime":977.923,"body":"To building the stuff that the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":975.533,"endTime":977.923,"body":"business needs, but we still need to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":977.923,"endTime":982.253,"body":"have some portion of that dedicated"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":977.923,"endTime":982.253,"body":"to improving the things that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":982.253,"endTime":983.973,"body":"make our developers lives better."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":984.393,"endTime":988.293,"body":"And I think because that conversation"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":984.393,"endTime":988.293,"body":"is so difficult for engineering"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":988.293,"endTime":992.353,"body":"leaders to have sometimes that a lot"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":988.293,"endTime":992.353,"body":"of times things like code quality get"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":992.373,"endTime":995.073,"body":"deprioritized within the organization."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":996.753,"endTime":1001.273,"body":"So were there any surprises or things"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":996.753,"endTime":1001.273,"body":"that you weren't expecting about the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1001.363,"endTime":1003.263,"body":"stuff that contributes to happiness?"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1004.256,"endTime":1008.39,"body":"So I'll go back"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1004.256,"endTime":1008.39,"body":"to the Salary correlation."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1008.53,"endTime":1012.62,"body":"I know salary is important from"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1008.53,"endTime":1012.62,"body":"other research that we've done."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1014.38,"endTime":1022.1,"body":"Again, my mind was that in the space"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1014.38,"endTime":1022.1,"body":"that developers, at least in 2023,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1022.16,"endTime":1024.51,"body":"valued flexibility more than salary."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1025.01,"endTime":1030.215,"body":"So I know that, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1025.01,"endTime":1030.215,"body":"inflation, economic headwinds."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1030.835,"endTime":1038.135,"body":"And then seeing the numbers that people"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1030.835,"endTime":1038.135,"body":"were reporting for at least a 10K,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1038.275,"endTime":1044.475,"body":"if not more, USD decrease in annual"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1038.275,"endTime":1044.475,"body":"salaries for all roles, most roles,  I"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1044.475,"endTime":1050.925,"body":"was thinking, At first, that maybe had"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1044.475,"endTime":1050.925,"body":"more to do with developers because they"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1050.925,"endTime":1056.715,"body":"prioritized that flexibility, that remote"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1050.925,"endTime":1056.715,"body":"setting or hybrid setting that they"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1056.715,"endTime":1060.895,"body":"were choosing to stay in those roles."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1061.935,"endTime":1065.485,"body":"But I think we saw with the"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1061.935,"endTime":1065.485,"body":"job satisfaction and then just"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1065.485,"endTime":1068.935,"body":"yeah, running that analysis on"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1065.485,"endTime":1068.935,"body":"workplace setting and salary."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1069.565,"endTime":1072.205,"body":"Nope, salary is much more correlated."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1073.6,"endTime":1074.4,"body":"Workplace setting."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1074.43,"endTime":1075.75,"body":"So that was surprising to me."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1076.26,"endTime":1079.83,"body":"But again, after you think"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1076.26,"endTime":1079.83,"body":"about it, it, does make sense."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1080.518,"endTime":1080.828,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1081.2,"endTime":1085.32,"body":"I want to take a moment just to talk"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1081.2,"endTime":1085.32,"body":"about some of the frustrations, the common"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1085.32,"endTime":1087.22,"body":"frustrations that you brought up as well."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1087.22,"endTime":1090.4,"body":"And I think we touched on this a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1087.22,"endTime":1090.4,"body":"little bit already, but,  the top"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1090.4,"endTime":1095.04,"body":"frustration that was surfaced in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1090.4,"endTime":1095.04,"body":"this is technical debt with, over 63"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1095.04,"endTime":1099.72,"body":"percent of respondents,  saying that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1095.04,"endTime":1099.72,"body":"contributed to their frustration."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1100.16,"endTime":1102.55,"body":"So what are your findings"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1100.16,"endTime":1102.55,"body":"around technical debt?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1102.63,"endTime":1106.2,"body":"Is there anything deeper into that,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1102.63,"endTime":1106.2,"body":"that you can share insights on?"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1107.303,"endTime":1108.343,"body":"Yeah, this is a good one."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1108.403,"endTime":1114.433,"body":"I think my main finding, and to be"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1108.403,"endTime":1114.433,"body":"very transparent, is that because it"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1114.443,"endTime":1123.372,"body":"was so highly ranked amongst all the"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1114.443,"endTime":1123.372,"body":"choices for frustrations, that my main"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1123.382,"endTime":1127.347,"body":"finding is that tech debt is just too"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1123.382,"endTime":1127.347,"body":"broad of a term to be using for it."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1127.567,"endTime":1128.447,"body":"That type of question."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1129.367,"endTime":1130.167,"body":"So that's fine."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1130.347,"endTime":1131.437,"body":"You live and you learn."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1131.807,"endTime":1135.567,"body":"I definitely expected there was going to"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1131.807,"endTime":1135.567,"body":"be more parody amongst those frustrations"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1135.577,"endTime":1138.394,"body":"because,  is frustrating sometimes."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1138.704,"endTime":1140.564,"body":"Especially if your work is very complex."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1141.759,"endTime":1147.029,"body":"But tech debt, I think is too much"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1141.759,"endTime":1147.029,"body":"of a buzzword at this point to"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1147.029,"endTime":1149.159,"body":"actually mean anything,  specific."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1149.189,"endTime":1155.529,"body":"So I think I, for the next developer"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1149.189,"endTime":1155.529,"body":"survey, need to tease that out"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1155.559,"endTime":1157.429,"body":"a little bit more to find out."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1157.759,"endTime":1161.959,"body":"Interestingly enough, we had a"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1157.759,"endTime":1161.959,"body":"really great episode of, on the"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1161.959,"endTime":1167.469,"body":"Stack Overflow podcast about tech"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1161.959,"endTime":1167.469,"body":"debt mindset that came out after the"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1169.074,"endTime":1170.754,"body":"Annual developer survey released."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1171.124,"endTime":1173.944,"body":"So I got to listen to that and"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1171.124,"endTime":1173.944,"body":"it started making more sense."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1174.522,"endTime":1179.422,"body":"The phrase tech debt, technical"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1174.522,"endTime":1179.422,"body":"debt is its own microcosm."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1179.862,"endTime":1182.696,"body":"And,   it has to be, you"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1179.862,"endTime":1182.696,"body":"have to be more specific."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1183.549,"endTime":1184.499,"body":"I know that now."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1185.039,"endTime":1186.809,"body":"So I think, yeah, I think the."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1187.817,"endTime":1193.237,"body":"to make that question better, the"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1187.817,"endTime":1193.237,"body":"idea is going to be to reformat it"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1193.237,"endTime":1197.617,"body":"to ask about causes of tech debt in"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1193.237,"endTime":1197.617,"body":"the terms of frustrations at work"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1197.617,"endTime":1199.787,"body":"instead of just blanket tech debt."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1200.025,"endTime":1200.305,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1200.355,"endTime":1202.195,"body":"So you're thinking like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1200.355,"endTime":1202.195,"body":"almost get more tactical."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1202.195,"endTime":1206.935,"body":"Is it outdated dependencies"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1202.195,"endTime":1206.935,"body":"or lack of tests or something"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1206.935,"endTime":1208.165,"body":"like that's contributing to it?"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1209.977,"endTime":1213.547,"body":"Honestly, I'm going to"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1209.977,"endTime":1213.547,"body":"have to do more research of what people"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1213.547,"endTime":1216.482,"body":"consider That might be its own little mini"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1216.482,"endTime":1216.882,"body":"survey."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1217.352,"endTime":1219.122,"body":"Like it's so complicated,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1219.122,"endTime":1221.732,"body":"and I also loved, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1219.122,"endTime":1221.732,"body":"feel like this always shows up, but I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1221.742,"endTime":1226.202,"body":"think like some of the top ranked stuff"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1221.742,"endTime":1226.202,"body":"also included like frustration with"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1226.212,"endTime":1231.272,"body":"build and Deployment Systems, which,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1226.212,"endTime":1231.272,"body":"I'm still here wondering why in 2024,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1231.282,"endTime":1236.732,"body":"haven't has no one figured out CICD, like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1231.282,"endTime":1236.732,"body":"we're still struggling with those things."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1237.66,"endTime":1239.3,"body":"I feel like"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1237.66,"endTime":1239.3,"body":"I'm still figuring it out"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1239.313,"endTime":1239.653,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1240.359,"endTime":1242.983,"body":"So yeah thank you for breaking"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1240.359,"endTime":1242.983,"body":"all of that down for us."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1242.983,"endTime":1245.833,"body":"So let's start talking a little"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1242.983,"endTime":1245.833,"body":"bit about what organizations"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1245.833,"endTime":1247.493,"body":"can do with this information."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1247.503,"endTime":1251.503,"body":"If you have an engineering manager,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1247.503,"endTime":1251.503,"body":"director of engineering or any"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1251.503,"endTime":1252.673,"body":"sort of engineering leader."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1252.943,"endTime":1257.163,"body":"Reading this survey, like what would you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1252.943,"endTime":1257.163,"body":"hope that they could take away from this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1257.183,"endTime":1259.903,"body":"to help improve developer satisfaction?"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1260.706,"endTime":1263.971,"body":"I would start with,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1260.706,"endTime":1263.971,"body":"Read the developer survey, go"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1263.971,"endTime":1265.541,"body":"visit our developer survey site."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1265.571,"endTime":1266.771,"body":"That's a great place to start."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1267.091,"endTime":1271.791,"body":"Knowing that this is the largest"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1267.091,"endTime":1271.791,"body":"developer survey in the world and"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1271.801,"endTime":1274.291,"body":"it's a global audience, so you're"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1271.801,"endTime":1274.291,"body":"getting a lot of perspectives."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1274.871,"endTime":1279.691,"body":"But besides that, I think we"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1274.871,"endTime":1279.691,"body":"saw salary is a real problem."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1280.801,"endTime":1285.031,"body":"That is, it's just correlated"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1280.801,"endTime":1285.031,"body":"to that unhappiness score."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1285.881,"endTime":1290.711,"body":"I think that some of these things,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1285.881,"endTime":1290.711,"body":"again, like I mentioned before, seem"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1290.711,"endTime":1294.511,"body":"intuitive, maybe a little obvious,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1290.711,"endTime":1294.511,"body":"but there's numbers to back it up now."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1295.421,"endTime":1301.731,"body":"Besides that, I think with the, as I"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1295.421,"endTime":1301.731,"body":"mentioned before, with those,  factors"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1301.731,"endTime":1304.661,"body":"for job satisfaction, going back to."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1306.146,"endTime":1309.836,"body":"There is a connection between your role"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1306.146,"endTime":1309.836,"body":"and the things that you do at work."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1310.256,"endTime":1316.336,"body":"So if this is, if you're a job, a people"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1310.256,"endTime":1316.336,"body":"manager,  an engineering manager, I"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1316.346,"endTime":1322.196,"body":"think checking in on what it is that"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1316.346,"endTime":1322.196,"body":"you like to do is always a good idea."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1322.546,"endTime":1325.936,"body":"Regardless of the numbers in this"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1322.546,"endTime":1325.936,"body":"survey, but what we're seeing is with"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1325.936,"endTime":1335.343,"body":"certain roles there is a relationship"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1325.936,"endTime":1335.343,"body":"between so much for joining us."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1335.343,"endTime":1336.629,"body":"And"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1337.019,"endTime":1337.379,"body":"Awesome."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1337.379,"endTime":1340.639,"body":"And then to flip that, what"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1337.379,"endTime":1340.639,"body":"about an individual contributor?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1340.679,"endTime":1342.969,"body":"Is there something from this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1340.679,"endTime":1342.969,"body":"that you think they could"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1342.969,"endTime":1344.409,"body":"surface to their leadership?"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1355.833,"endTime":1360.763,"body":"That most developers"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1355.833,"endTime":1360.763,"body":"do not feel threatened by AI, that"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1360.913,"endTime":1365.953,"body":"we had 70 percent of professional"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1360.913,"endTime":1365.953,"body":"developers indicated they didn't"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1365.953,"endTime":1367.683,"body":"believe AI was a threat to their job."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1368.853,"endTime":1376.318,"body":"So given that There is maybe some"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1368.853,"endTime":1376.318,"body":"uncertainty with like job security"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1376.888,"endTime":1382.918,"body":"or uncertainty with how roles are"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1376.888,"endTime":1382.918,"body":"going to be affected in tech orgs."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1383.753,"endTime":1388.573,"body":"In any industry with AI, but if"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1383.753,"endTime":1388.573,"body":"it's something you don't feel"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1388.573,"endTime":1393.173,"body":"threatened about, then talking to your"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1388.573,"endTime":1393.173,"body":"managers about how can we use this?"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1393.213,"endTime":1394.313,"body":"How can I use this tool?"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1394.313,"endTime":1399.343,"body":"How can I get ahead of,  what these"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1394.313,"endTime":1399.343,"body":"tools can bring, how they can improve?"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1399.503,"endTime":1400.693,"body":"I want to be using them."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1400.693,"endTime":1404.278,"body":"If it's not a threat, then I think"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1400.693,"endTime":1404.278,"body":"having direct conversations about it."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1404.278,"endTime":1405.988,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1406.736,"endTime":1407.036,"body":"Awesome."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1407.036,"endTime":1411.586,"body":"And I want to maybe pick your brain on,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1407.036,"endTime":1411.586,"body":"what's coming next year as much as we can."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1411.736,"endTime":1415.766,"body":"I, I think ways that I would love"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1411.736,"endTime":1415.766,"body":"to to learn more about some of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1415.776,"endTime":1418.575,"body":"these insights you gained is, one"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1415.776,"endTime":1418.575,"body":"of my favorite parts of the course."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1418.615,"endTime":1423.565,"body":"The developer survey is always the most"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1418.615,"endTime":1423.565,"body":"loved versus like most wanted tools."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1423.825,"endTime":1427.995,"body":"I would love to see like correlations"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1423.825,"endTime":1427.995,"body":"between that and like people who"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1427.995,"endTime":1431.125,"body":"are happy with their job, are they"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1427.995,"endTime":1431.125,"body":"using the tools that everyone wants?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1431.765,"endTime":1435.115,"body":"That's my idea, but do you have any,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1431.765,"endTime":1435.115,"body":"you mentioned breaking out tech data a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1435.115,"endTime":1438.575,"body":"little more, do you have any other plans"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1435.115,"endTime":1438.575,"body":"for how you might be able to expand"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1438.575,"endTime":1443.635,"body":"on this like professional developer"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1438.575,"endTime":1443.635,"body":"portion of the survey for next year?"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1445.175,"endTime":1446.775,"body":"And I do"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1445.175,"endTime":1446.775,"body":"think that's a good idea."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1447.015,"endTime":1450.823,"body":"The one problem with that is"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1447.015,"endTime":1450.823,"body":"there's so many technologies that"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1450.823,"endTime":1452.043,"body":"we ask developers about."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1452.453,"endTime":1455.963,"body":"And so there's a lot of noise"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1452.453,"endTime":1455.963,"body":"there, but I do like that."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1456.063,"endTime":1460.353,"body":"I think there is some way you've"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1456.063,"endTime":1460.353,"body":"got my wheel spinning now, so I'm"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1460.353,"endTime":1462.173,"body":"going to, I will take that back."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1462.523,"endTime":1464.473,"body":"And obviously that's our favorite part."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1465.398,"endTime":1469.587,"body":"of the developer survey to see,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1465.398,"endTime":1469.587,"body":"seeing the results of who's"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1469.587,"endTime":1471.007,"body":"using what did they want to use?"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1471.547,"endTime":1478.267,"body":"so I guess for next year, we go"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1471.547,"endTime":1478.267,"body":"through this process,  where we source."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1479.312,"endTime":1485.452,"body":"The technology selections that"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1479.312,"endTime":1485.452,"body":"will show up on the dev survey."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1485.782,"endTime":1489.482,"body":"And so one of the differences, one of"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1485.782,"endTime":1489.482,"body":"the new things we did this year we always"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1489.512,"endTime":1494.122,"body":"go to, it's a combination of looking"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1489.512,"endTime":1494.122,"body":"at some, our internal data sources."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1494.122,"endTime":1496.432,"body":"So we have tags on stackoverflow."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1496.432,"endTime":1498.682,"body":"com that we can see trends in."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1499.052,"endTime":1504.682,"body":"We have external data sources,  such"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1499.052,"endTime":1504.682,"body":"as GitHub and Google search to see"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1504.732,"endTime":1508.822,"body":"What are some of the technologies"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1504.732,"endTime":1508.822,"body":"that are out there that people are,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1508.852,"endTime":1510.812,"body":"that are popular in those spaces."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1511.352,"endTime":1515.512,"body":"And then we also ask our"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1511.352,"endTime":1515.512,"body":"meta community for feedback."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1516.042,"endTime":1518.752,"body":"Hey, these are the technologies"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1516.042,"endTime":1518.752,"body":"we're thinking about"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1518.762,"endTime":1520.682,"body":"asking,  our users this year."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1520.702,"endTime":1521.542,"body":"What do you guys think?"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1522.012,"endTime":1524.002,"body":"And they always give great feedback."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1524.252,"endTime":1525.572,"body":"They love to correct spelling."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1525.582,"endTime":1527.092,"body":"First of all, that's always important."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1527.752,"endTime":1533.402,"body":"And, but this year, some of the feedback"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1527.752,"endTime":1533.402,"body":"that they gave was, Hey, you have."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1535.107,"endTime":1537.377,"body":"A lot of, you're missing"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1535.107,"endTime":1537.377,"body":"some of these embedded"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1537.377,"endTime":1540.287,"body":"technologies,  embedded developers."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1541.062,"endTime":1543.932,"body":"Accounted for 3 percent of the"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1541.062,"endTime":1543.932,"body":"roles that we asked for this year,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1543.932,"endTime":1546.872,"body":"which is not a small number when you"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1543.932,"endTime":1546.872,"body":"think about all of the roles that"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1546.872,"endTime":1548.392,"body":"respond to the developer survey."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1549.382,"endTime":1554.212,"body":"So we, I went ahead and created"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1549.382,"endTime":1554.212,"body":"a whole new technology subsection"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1554.252,"endTime":1555.552,"body":"just for embedded tech."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1556.252,"endTime":1559.282,"body":"So I think there's possibility we"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1556.252,"endTime":1559.282,"body":"could see more stuff like that."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1559.547,"endTime":1564.167,"body":"I think it just makes, it depends on"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1559.547,"endTime":1564.167,"body":"some of the feedback, what we're seeing"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1564.167,"endTime":1565.937,"body":"as far as like those data sources go."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1565.937,"endTime":1570.717,"body":"Like sometimes we have to take some of"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1565.937,"endTime":1570.717,"body":"those technologies out of the list too."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1570.857,"endTime":1574.867,"body":"Hey, this has been slowly"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1570.857,"endTime":1574.867,"body":"dropping out of people's."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1575.227,"endTime":1577.307,"body":"Usage and they don't love it."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1577.337,"endTime":1578.247,"body":"They're not using it."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1578.247,"endTime":1579.267,"body":"They don't want to use it."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1579.857,"endTime":1585.777,"body":"Hate to say it, my, one of my first"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1579.857,"endTime":1585.777,"body":"languages, my most loved language"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1585.87,"endTime":1588.83,"body":"is falling down that path as well."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1588.86,"endTime":1591.16,"body":"I hope that turns around,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1588.86,"endTime":1591.16,"body":"but it's not up to me."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1591.64,"endTime":1598.27,"body":"For the professional developer series, I"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1591.64,"endTime":1598.27,"body":"think for questions, I think probably not"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1598.27,"endTime":1603.6,"body":"too many changes just because we like to"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1598.27,"endTime":1603.6,"body":"see that like history that, that linear."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1604.095,"endTime":1609.035,"body":"Time series of how these answers"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1604.095,"endTime":1609.035,"body":"are progressing over the years."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1609.295,"endTime":1615.441,"body":"But we are definitely attuned"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1609.295,"endTime":1615.441,"body":"to what is going on with AI?"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1615.911,"endTime":1619.201,"body":"What is going on with changes in"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1615.911,"endTime":1619.201,"body":"the workplace and how are those"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1619.211,"endTime":1625.891,"body":"being reflected because we want to"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1619.211,"endTime":1625.891,"body":"specifically ask those either new, newly"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1625.891,"endTime":1628.671,"body":"professional or seasoned professionals."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1628.672,"endTime":1630.581,"body":"How is work going for you?"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1630.591,"endTime":1631.611,"body":"What does work look like?"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1632.501,"endTime":1633.021,"body":"So we'll see."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1633.021,"endTime":1637.461,"body":"I think it just, it remains to be"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1633.021,"endTime":1637.461,"body":"determined what else is in store for us."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1637.461,"endTime":1641.041,"body":"What new progressive"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1637.461,"endTime":1641.041,"body":"technological expansion is in"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1641.836,"endTime":1643.406,"body":"knocking on the door of 2025."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1643.564,"endTime":1645.624,"body":"I think in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1643.564,"endTime":1645.624,"body":"particular, there's a lot to be"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1645.624,"endTime":1650.544,"body":"learned about the impact of AI"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1645.624,"endTime":1650.544,"body":"on different types of developers."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1650.594,"endTime":1653.804,"body":"I think we, with a lot of the tools"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1650.594,"endTime":1653.804,"body":"that are coming out, it's like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1653.804,"endTime":1657.494,"body":"we've like as a whole, just view it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1653.804,"endTime":1657.494,"body":"collectively as all developers are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1657.494,"endTime":1661.064,"body":"now using Copilot, so they must all"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1657.494,"endTime":1661.064,"body":"have a similar experience with it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1661.064,"endTime":1664.554,"body":"But I think we may be learning the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1661.064,"endTime":1664.554,"body":"reality is that like a senior developer"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1664.554,"endTime":1668.164,"body":"has a very different experience with a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1664.554,"endTime":1668.164,"body":"tool like that than a junior developer."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1668.164,"endTime":1668.454,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1668.544,"endTime":1672.264,"body":"And they both could potentially see"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1668.544,"endTime":1672.264,"body":"massive improvements from it, but"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1672.264,"endTime":1676.484,"body":"you may have to deploy it in a very"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1672.264,"endTime":1676.484,"body":"different way depending on the person."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1677.084,"endTime":1680.384,"body":"So yeah, I think, yeah any, everyone's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1677.084,"endTime":1680.384,"body":"talking about AI for a good reason,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1680.394,"endTime":1683.794,"body":"but I think it is very relevant"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1680.394,"endTime":1683.794,"body":"that we need to understand how it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1683.794,"endTime":1687.654,"body":"going to change, not just the whole"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1683.794,"endTime":1687.654,"body":"software development industry, but each"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1687.654,"endTime":1689.814,"body":"individual role within the organization."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1690.864,"endTime":1691.144,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1691.144,"endTime":1696.784,"body":"And also to go along with that, we have,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1691.144,"endTime":1696.784,"body":"we ask developers now,  what part of"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1696.794,"endTime":1702.234,"body":"their development process do they use if"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1696.794,"endTime":1702.234,"body":"they use AI tools that they use it in."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1702.734,"endTime":1706.814,"body":"So we have tons of options, but"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1702.734,"endTime":1706.814,"body":"similarly to this job frustration"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1707.274,"endTime":1711.784,"body":"and tech debt being overwhelmingly"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1707.274,"endTime":1711.784,"body":"the top one,  developers indicate"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1711.784,"endTime":1713.204,"body":"writing code as they're like."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1714.199,"endTime":1717.249,"body":"overwhelmingly top,  way"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1714.199,"endTime":1717.249,"body":"they use AI tools."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1717.939,"endTime":1723.049,"body":"And I do think that maybe needs"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1717.939,"endTime":1723.049,"body":"to be broken out a little bit too,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1723.079,"endTime":1724.389,"body":"because it's just a little too"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1724.389,"endTime":1728.679,"body":"broad and,  exactly going back"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1724.389,"endTime":1728.679,"body":"to what you're saying with,"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1729.534,"endTime":1731.094,"body":"Junior and senior developers."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1731.324,"endTime":1733.524,"body":"They're writing code, but very different."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1734.142,"endTime":1736.632,"body":"it's this has"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1734.142,"endTime":1736.632,"body":"all been wonderful, Erin, and thank"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1736.632,"endTime":1738.102,"body":"you so much for joining me today."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1738.612,"endTime":1743.282,"body":"And again, we'll have the survey link in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1738.612,"endTime":1743.282,"body":"the show notes for all of our listeners."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1743.682,"endTime":1747.202,"body":"And there's tons of information that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1743.682,"endTime":1747.202,"body":"we didn't even get to touch on today"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1747.202,"endTime":1750.872,"body":"that I think you'll You know, plenty"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1747.202,"endTime":1750.872,"body":"for people to learn from within there."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1750.872,"endTime":1753.532,"body":"So I definitely encourage our audience"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1750.872,"endTime":1753.532,"body":"to go check it out for yourself."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1754.072,"endTime":1756.802,"body":"So Erin, if people want to follow"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1754.072,"endTime":1756.802,"body":"you to learn more about what you're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1756.802,"endTime":1758.192,"body":"working on,  where should they go?"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1759.131,"endTime":1759.621,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1759.661,"endTime":1761.101,"body":"Thank you for asking."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1761.191,"endTime":1764.921,"body":"I would say please check out"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1761.191,"endTime":1764.921,"body":"the Stack Overflow blog because"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1764.971,"endTime":1767.071,"body":"I post my analyses there."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1767.561,"endTime":1772.861,"body":"We are currently working on a survey"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1767.561,"endTime":1772.861,"body":"for our community members about"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1773.411,"endTime":1775.391,"body":"Knowledge in online communities."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1775.851,"endTime":1778.241,"body":"So that analysis should be coming up soon."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1778.291,"endTime":1783.021,"body":"And depending on when this podcast is"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1778.291,"endTime":1783.021,"body":"released, the survey may still be open."},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1783.051,"endTime":1785.591,"body":"If anyone wants to"},{"speaker":"Erin Yepis","startTime":1783.051,"endTime":1785.591,"body":"contribute, that would be"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1785.849,"endTime":1786.329,"body":"Wonderful."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1787.508,"endTime":1791.498,"body":"Stick around after the break LinearB"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1787.508,"endTime":1791.498,"body":"co-founder of Dan Lines will be"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1791.498,"endTime":1793.688,"body":"joining me to discuss today's episode."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1794.427,"endTime":1797.577,"body":"Did you know that PR size is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1794.427,"endTime":1797.577,"body":"the single most significant"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1797.577,"endTime":1799.407,"body":"driver of engineering velocity."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1799.857,"endTime":1803.247,"body":"Or that automating the toil of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1799.857,"endTime":1803.247,"body":"project management hygiene correlates"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1803.247,"endTime":1805.317,"body":"directly with faster cycle times."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1805.857,"endTime":1809.367,"body":"I didn't either until I got my"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1805.857,"endTime":1809.367,"body":"hands on the 20, 25 engineering"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1809.367,"endTime":1811.017,"body":"benchmarks report from LinearB."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1811.497,"endTime":1813.777,"body":"This report is the most expansive."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1813.837,"endTime":1817.901,"body":"Study on quantitative data from more"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1813.837,"endTime":1817.901,"body":"than 6 million poll requests at."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1817.931,"endTime":1819.851,"body":"3000 organizations worldwide."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1820.238,"endTime":1824.108,"body":"You Can have this report sent"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1820.238,"endTime":1824.108,"body":"to your email inbox right now."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1824.528,"endTime":1824.828,"body":"All you."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1824.828,"endTime":1826.298,"body":"I have to do is go to LinearB."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1826.358,"endTime":1826.928,"body":"Dot IO."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1827.228,"endTime":1828.998,"body":"Click the link in the black banner at."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1829.028,"endTime":1832.508,"body":"The top of the page and sign up for"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1829.028,"endTime":1832.508,"body":"one of the two round table discussions."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1832.508,"endTime":1832.928,"body":"We're hosting."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1833.108,"endTime":1836.978,"body":"On Wednesday and Thursday this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1833.108,"endTime":1836.978,"body":"week, November 20th and 21st."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1837.338,"endTime":1838.598,"body":"It takes about 10 seconds."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1838.808,"endTime":1840.998,"body":"In fact, you have time to do"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1838.808,"endTime":1840.998,"body":"it before the end of this."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1841.427,"endTime":1843.167,"body":"In this round table discussion, you shy."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1843.167,"endTime":1845.297,"body":"Barry LinearB CTO will host."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1845.327,"endTime":1847.397,"body":"Rob Hubler CTO at circle CEI."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1847.967,"endTime":1851.723,"body":"And Tara Hernandez, of developer"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1847.967,"endTime":1851.723,"body":"productivity at Mongo DB."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1852.143,"endTime":1853.253,"body":"This phenomenal trio."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1853.253,"endTime":1855.593,"body":"Leo, we'll dive deep"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1853.253,"endTime":1855.593,"body":"into this year's updates."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1855.893,"endTime":1857.123,"body":"Key findings from the research."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1857.273,"endTime":1859.703,"body":"And some brand new additions"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1857.273,"endTime":1859.703,"body":"to the benchmark lineup."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1859.973,"endTime":1860.723,"body":"I'll give you a hint."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1860.783,"endTime":1861.353,"body":"It has something to."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1861.383,"endTime":1863.933,"body":"Do with one of the questions I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1861.383,"endTime":1863.933,"body":"asked at the start of this segment."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1863.933,"endTime":1865.725,"body":"Yo this round table discussion."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1865.965,"endTime":1869.655,"body":"And you certainly don't want to pass"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1865.965,"endTime":1869.655,"body":"up the opportunity to get the 2025."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1869.685,"endTime":1871.845,"body":"Engineering benchmarks"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1869.685,"endTime":1871.845,"body":"report from LinearB."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1872.235,"endTime":1873.645,"body":"You can have it right now."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1873.945,"endTime":1875.025,"body":"Head over to LinearB."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1875.115,"endTime":1877.395,"body":"Dot IO or use the link in the show notes."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1879.805,"endTime":1884.335,"body":"So Dan, first of all, I just want"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1879.805,"endTime":1884.335,"body":"to get your reaction to this top"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1884.335,"endTime":1889.225,"body":"line number that only 20 percent"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1884.335,"endTime":1889.225,"body":"of developers are happy at work."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1889.525,"endTime":1894.415,"body":"And so for a context Erin mentions that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1889.525,"endTime":1894.415,"body":"this number represents professional"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1894.415,"endTime":1898.125,"body":"developers who selected either a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1894.415,"endTime":1898.125,"body":"nine or a 10 on a 10 point scale."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1898.745,"endTime":1903.795,"body":"Further 32 percent of developers also"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1898.745,"endTime":1903.795,"body":"indicated they're unhappy at work."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1903.858,"endTime":1908.008,"body":"An almost majority, about 48 percent"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1903.858,"endTime":1908.008,"body":"are just basically complacent at work."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1908.008,"endTime":1912.558,"body":"So Dan, why are only 20 percent"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1908.008,"endTime":1912.558,"body":"of developers happy at work?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1913.716,"endTime":1915.906,"body":"Yeah, Ben, first"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1913.716,"endTime":1915.906,"body":"off, man, when I saw this,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1915.906,"endTime":1917.716,"body":"that's like a pretty sad number."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1917.826,"endTime":1918.846,"body":"20%."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1919.186,"endTime":1922.796,"body":"I don't know, I saw what you"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1919.186,"endTime":1922.796,"body":"and Erin were discussing."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1922.796,"endTime":1924.226,"body":"I think you had the same reaction."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1924.226,"endTime":1926.796,"body":"That feels low and sad to me."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1927.226,"endTime":1931.731,"body":"Then I started thinking, okay, maybe,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1927.226,"endTime":1931.731,"body":"What percentage of people are on"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1931.731,"endTime":1934.501,"body":"the entire planet are happy at work?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1934.501,"endTime":1936.131,"body":"I don't know, maybe it's 20%."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1936.731,"endTime":1941.941,"body":"But if we're saying, specifically"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1936.731,"endTime":1941.941,"body":"for developers, I think about a"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1941.941,"endTime":1946.071,"body":"few things when it goes back to the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1941.941,"endTime":1946.071,"body":"experience and that type of stuff."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1946.451,"endTime":1950.351,"body":"First of all, I remember when I was a"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1946.451,"endTime":1950.351,"body":"developer, you probably remember the same."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1950.721,"endTime":1953.051,"body":"You gotta be working on"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1950.721,"endTime":1953.051,"body":"an interesting problem."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1953.531,"endTime":1956.151,"body":"That's like the fir first thing"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1953.531,"endTime":1956.151,"body":"about being a developer, like I"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1956.161,"endTime":1957.791,"body":"wanna work on something interesting."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1957.791,"endTime":1960.051,"body":"Now, what is interesting?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1960.051,"endTime":1964.341,"body":"It could be I'm using a"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1960.051,"endTime":1964.341,"body":"cool latest technology."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1964.381,"endTime":1967.661,"body":"Like maybe that's interesting, but"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1964.381,"endTime":1967.661,"body":"not many developers get to do that."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1968.331,"endTime":1970.971,"body":"But it also could be"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1968.331,"endTime":1970.971,"body":"like the product itself."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1971.011,"endTime":1974.851,"body":"I don't know, maybe back in the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1971.011,"endTime":1974.851,"body":"day, being in the original 30 people"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1974.851,"endTime":1976.721,"body":"at Microsoft, like that was cool."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1976.731,"endTime":1978.551,"body":"Like working on an operating system."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1979.321,"endTime":1982.451,"body":"Then I started thinking to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1979.321,"endTime":1982.451,"body":"myself, okay, it's only 20%,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1982.471,"endTime":1984.561,"body":"which is a really low number."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1984.561,"endTime":1986.871,"body":"And that LinearB, we talk"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1984.561,"endTime":1986.871,"body":"about this all the time."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1986.921,"endTime":1991.691,"body":"Almost every company now is a software"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1986.921,"endTime":1991.691,"body":"company, which means there's more"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1991.691,"endTime":1995.441,"body":"developers on the planet, but there"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1991.691,"endTime":1995.441,"body":"also means, like I was thinking"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1995.441,"endTime":1999.501,"body":"about this, maybe there's not as"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1995.441,"endTime":1999.501,"body":"many interesting opportunities."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1999.501,"endTime":2005.166,"body":"I don't know if I want to work on"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1999.501,"endTime":2005.166,"body":"an app for Oreos or like Pepsi, you"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2005.166,"endTime":2006.866,"body":"know how everything has an app now?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2007.206,"endTime":2011.086,"body":"Like maybe that's not that interesting"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2007.206,"endTime":2011.086,"body":"and back in the day, maybe there"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2011.086,"endTime":2014.856,"body":"was less companies They were more"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2011.086,"endTime":2014.856,"body":"tech like really tech companies."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2014.856,"endTime":2019.086,"body":"I gave like a Microsoft example There's"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2014.856,"endTime":2019.086,"body":"a ton of others, but maybe that could"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2019.096,"endTime":2022.586,"body":"be the reason so that was like the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2019.096,"endTime":2022.586,"body":"first thing that went to my mind Like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2022.726,"endTime":2024.416,"body":"am I working on something interesting?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2025.461,"endTime":2029.471,"body":"Now the second thing that came to my"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2025.461,"endTime":2029.471,"body":"mind when I saw this low number, and we"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2029.471,"endTime":2033.561,"body":"see this from the LinearB data, like the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2029.471,"endTime":2033.561,"body":"amount of friction standing in between"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2033.561,"endTime":2039.671,"body":"the developer and executing work, like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2033.561,"endTime":2039.671,"body":"that directly either is positive for a"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2039.671,"endTime":2041.241,"body":"developer or negative for a developer."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2041.241,"endTime":2044.676,"body":"If it's hard to get my work done, if"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2041.241,"endTime":2044.676,"body":"it takes a long time to get through"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2044.676,"endTime":2049.021,"body":"a PR process, if my coding time is"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2044.676,"endTime":2049.021,"body":"way too long, if my build is way too"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2049.021,"endTime":2052.671,"body":"long, I mean there's a ton of things"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2049.021,"endTime":2052.671,"body":"that go into these friction, I'll just"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2052.671,"endTime":2054.561,"body":"call them like friction producers."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2055.431,"endTime":2059.611,"body":"And we see, especially with a lot of"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2055.431,"endTime":2059.611,"body":"large organizations that are employing"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2059.621,"endTime":2065.011,"body":"like 5, 000 to 20, 000 developers, like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2059.621,"endTime":2065.011,"body":"it's pretty rough, like the cycle time."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2065.871,"endTime":2069.161,"body":"So I think that probably"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2065.871,"endTime":2069.161,"body":"has a big impact on it."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2069.161,"endTime":2072.951,"body":"I think they talked a lot about like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2069.161,"endTime":2072.951,"body":"systems that are more complicated"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2072.951,"endTime":2076.421,"body":"now, but I think at the end of"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2072.951,"endTime":2076.421,"body":"the day, it's like friction to get"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2076.421,"endTime":2078.861,"body":"my work done, the LinearB data."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2079.061,"endTime":2082.711,"body":"I would say supports that we have a lot"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2079.061,"endTime":2082.711,"body":"to do as an industry to improve that."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2082.781,"endTime":2086.871,"body":"So that's the second thing that came to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2082.781,"endTime":2086.871,"body":"my mind of that low 20 percent number."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2088.321,"endTime":2093.261,"body":"And then the third thing, think about"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2088.321,"endTime":2093.261,"body":"like for anyone, I don't think it's just"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2093.271,"endTime":2097.551,"body":"for developers, but I remember developers"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2093.271,"endTime":2097.551,"body":"saying this the most, like your boss"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2097.551,"endTime":2099.801,"body":"or manager, like your team leader."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2100.361,"endTime":2104.761,"body":"Matters a lot, whether you have a"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2100.361,"endTime":2104.761,"body":"good one or a not so good one, that's"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2104.771,"endTime":2106.881,"body":"really going to impact your experience."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2106.881,"endTime":2109.921,"body":"And the way that I think about like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2106.881,"endTime":2109.921,"body":"team leaders and managers, they're"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2109.921,"endTime":2112.371,"body":"like a conduit to the business."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2113.011,"endTime":2117.041,"body":"They're a conduit to what the business"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2113.011,"endTime":2117.041,"body":"cares about, the business value,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2117.051,"endTime":2118.771,"body":"are you connected to your work?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2119.671,"endTime":2121.761,"body":"and they're also a"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2119.671,"endTime":2121.761,"body":"conduit to career growth."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2122.931,"endTime":2125.951,"body":"And what I would say is there's"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2122.931,"endTime":2125.951,"body":"a lot of team leaders out there."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2126.661,"endTime":2129.191,"body":"There's a lot of young or"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2126.661,"endTime":2129.191,"body":"new team leaders out there."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2129.191,"endTime":2130.541,"body":"Maybe new is a better term."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2130.866,"endTime":2132.676,"body":"And it's hard to have a good manager."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2132.676,"endTime":2135.816,"body":"Like some of these team leaders"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2132.676,"endTime":2135.816,"body":"honestly have a lot of work to do."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2135.816,"endTime":2138.516,"body":"It's probably like their first"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2135.816,"endTime":2138.516,"body":"year they're managing eight people."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2139.696,"endTime":2142.866,"body":"And when I think about things on"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2139.696,"endTime":2142.866,"body":"the team leader side, like think"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2142.876,"endTime":2147.796,"body":"about career growth, am I being"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2142.876,"endTime":2147.796,"body":"evaluated in a fair and data driven"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2147.796,"endTime":2150.546,"body":"way for increasing my competition?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2150.546,"endTime":2155.346,"body":"Or is it more about who can advocate"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2150.546,"endTime":2155.346,"body":"for themselves the best as a developer?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2155.346,"endTime":2156.796,"body":"Sometimes that's really hard to do."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2157.991,"endTime":2161.821,"body":"Then I think about, okay, what are"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2157.991,"endTime":2161.821,"body":"the ceremonies that I'm going through?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2161.821,"endTime":2165.881,"body":"My daily stand up, the iteration"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2161.821,"endTime":2165.881,"body":"retro, are we actually improving?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2165.891,"endTime":2167.391,"body":"Are these good ceremonies?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2168.031,"endTime":2170.971,"body":"Then I think about, are we"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2168.031,"endTime":2170.971,"body":"hitting our iterations on time?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2170.971,"endTime":2174.371,"body":"Can I understand, am I getting"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2170.971,"endTime":2174.371,"body":"pulled off for production issues?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2174.791,"endTime":2176.901,"body":"Is my team leader advocating for me?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2176.911,"endTime":2181.601,"body":"No, Dan needs to stay focused, and So"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2176.911,"endTime":2181.601,"body":"all of that comes into play, and I can"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2181.601,"endTime":2185.661,"body":"just say from the LinearB perspective,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2181.601,"endTime":2185.661,"body":"Perspective, like I see the team leaders"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2185.811,"endTime":2190.331,"body":"are the area of like management that"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2185.811,"endTime":2190.331,"body":"will affect developers the most But I"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2190.341,"endTime":2193.761,"body":"think it's one of the hardest jobs and"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2190.341,"endTime":2193.761,"body":"they need a lot of help to be better"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2194.784,"endTime":2197.244,"body":"at a high level, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2194.784,"endTime":2197.244,"body":"think what you're describing, it's we"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2197.244,"endTime":2200.584,"body":"talk a lot about how, engineering leaders"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2197.244,"endTime":2200.584,"body":"today, like one of the biggest challenges"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2200.584,"endTime":2204.904,"body":"they face is balancing like this business"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2200.584,"endTime":2204.904,"body":"objectives with operational excellence."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2205.384,"endTime":2209.464,"body":"And it's at all levels, you want as"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2205.384,"endTime":2209.464,"body":"an organization to know, When you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2209.464,"endTime":2213.814,"body":"can push back against those business"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2209.464,"endTime":2213.814,"body":"objective side of things to focus more"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2213.814,"endTime":2217.094,"body":"on the things that like your developers"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2213.814,"endTime":2217.094,"body":"care about, it's probably one of the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2217.094,"endTime":2219.674,"body":"most difficult aspects of this job,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2219.913,"endTime":2223.483,"body":"and you got to advocate you got"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2219.913,"endTime":2223.483,"body":"to come with data you got to advocate and"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2223.483,"endTime":2225.043,"body":"then you got to have a solution, right?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2225.053,"endTime":2226.363,"body":"That's what makes it really hard"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2226.646,"endTime":2228.546,"body":"Talking about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2226.646,"endTime":2228.546,"body":"the things that make it hard,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2228.812,"endTime":2233.242,"body":"technical debt was by far the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2228.812,"endTime":2233.242,"body":"largest source of frustration."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2233.582,"endTime":2236.692,"body":"There was over 62 percent of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2233.582,"endTime":2236.692,"body":"respondents mentioned that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2237.197,"endTime":2240.947,"body":"And it was far above the next two"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2237.197,"endTime":2240.947,"body":"things, which were complexity around"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2240.957,"endTime":2243.217,"body":"the build and deploy infrastructure."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2243.527,"endTime":2246.307,"body":"And we won't get into my theories"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2243.527,"endTime":2246.307,"body":"about how those two things"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2246.307,"endTime":2247.987,"body":"always show up in these surveys."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2248.49,"endTime":2252.84,"body":"Erin said the one improvement that she"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2248.49,"endTime":2252.84,"body":"wants to make next year, is to break"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2252.84,"endTime":2257.52,"body":"this category of technical debt down into"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2252.84,"endTime":2257.52,"body":"more specific categories, to give more"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2257.52,"endTime":2259.3,"body":"of like a granular understanding of it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2259.9,"endTime":2261.64,"body":"So what do you think about."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2262.26,"endTime":2266.21,"body":"Specifically about this high level"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2262.26,"endTime":2266.21,"body":"of frustration with technical debt."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2266.28,"endTime":2269.13,"body":"What do you think it means and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2266.28,"endTime":2269.13,"body":"how do you think something like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2269.13,"endTime":2270.24,"body":"this should be broken down?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2271.058,"endTime":2274.338,"body":"Okay, yeah, so first of"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2271.058,"endTime":2274.338,"body":"all, this one I'm not surprised."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2274.388,"endTime":2277.338,"body":"I was surprised by only 20"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2274.388,"endTime":2277.338,"body":"percent of developers are happy."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2277.338,"endTime":2280.388,"body":"I'm not surprised that one of the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2277.338,"endTime":2280.388,"body":"biggest complaints is technical debt."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2280.748,"endTime":2282.898,"body":"I think that's been since"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2280.748,"endTime":2282.898,"body":"the beginning of time."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2283.278,"endTime":2287.168,"body":"I think that's what the data"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2283.278,"endTime":2287.168,"body":"shows, like on the LinearB side."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2287.604,"endTime":2294.294,"body":"Not a lot of companies are, let's"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2287.604,"endTime":2294.294,"body":"say, Properly advocating or allocating"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2294.304,"endTime":2296.544,"body":"enough space to reduce technical debt."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2296.544,"endTime":2298.084,"body":"So all of that makes sense to me."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2298.444,"endTime":2302.013,"body":"Now, what I will say is when I look"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2298.444,"endTime":2302.013,"body":"at this list, There's a bunch of"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2302.083,"endTime":2306.223,"body":"items on here that I think could also,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2302.083,"endTime":2306.223,"body":"cause I think the top one actually"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2306.223,"endTime":2307.823,"body":"says amount of technical debt."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2308.053,"endTime":2313.213,"body":"So 62 percent for amount of technical"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2308.053,"endTime":2313.213,"body":"debt, but the other ones on here are"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2313.243,"endTime":2317.303,"body":"either technical debt influenced or"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2313.243,"endTime":2317.303,"body":"actually technical debt themselves."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2317.303,"endTime":2321.823,"body":"So if you're looking at things like the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2317.303,"endTime":2321.823,"body":"CICD complexity, platform reliability,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2321.823,"endTime":2327.183,"body":"like always usually is like a technical"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2321.823,"endTime":2327.183,"body":"debt problem, dependency management, like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2327.513,"endTime":2332.333,"body":"security stuff, quality concerns, most of"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2327.513,"endTime":2332.333,"body":"that come comes back to technical debt."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2332.963,"endTime":2335.823,"body":"Now I will say two things on"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2332.963,"endTime":2335.823,"body":"this and actually I guess I'll"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2335.823,"endTime":2337.163,"body":"relay it back to my first point."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2337.593,"endTime":2341.673,"body":"What I'm seeing is Every company"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2337.593,"endTime":2341.673,"body":"is a software company now,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2341.733,"endTime":2343.003,"body":"in some way, shape, or form."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2343.003,"endTime":2343.963,"body":"Most, let's say."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2344.683,"endTime":2347.713,"body":"And because of that, and I think"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2344.683,"endTime":2347.713,"body":"this is different from earlier"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2347.713,"endTime":2349.753,"body":"on, maybe 20, 30 years ago."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2351.293,"endTime":2355.933,"body":"The software that developers are"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2351.293,"endTime":2355.933,"body":"producing now are, is directly"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2355.943,"endTime":2357.943,"body":"driving revenue for companies."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2358.323,"endTime":2359.063,"body":"So I'll say it again."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2359.083,"endTime":2359.963,"body":"Think about a bank."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2359.973,"endTime":2361.423,"body":"Think about like Charles Schwab."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2361.433,"endTime":2365.313,"body":"Probably back in the day, you go up to the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2361.433,"endTime":2365.313,"body":"bank teller and you do whatever you do."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2365.343,"endTime":2366.123,"body":"Give me my money."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2366.428,"endTime":2367.978,"body":"Or whatever you would"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2366.428,"endTime":2367.978,"body":"say to a bank teller."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2368.258,"endTime":2369.008,"body":"Here's a check."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2369.018,"endTime":2369.318,"body":"I don't know."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2369.318,"endTime":2370.458,"body":"I've never gone to a bank teller."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2370.708,"endTime":2375.368,"body":"What you do now is you log in right and"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2370.708,"endTime":2375.368,"body":"you manage your bank account online."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2375.368,"endTime":2376.268,"body":"That's all software."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2376.598,"endTime":2379.308,"body":"So even a bank is actually"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2376.598,"endTime":2379.308,"body":"like a software company."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2379.318,"endTime":2384.838,"body":"Now because software is driving revenue"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2379.318,"endTime":2384.838,"body":"forward, I think there's a lot of"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2384.838,"endTime":2389.658,"body":"pressure on developers and on engineering"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2384.838,"endTime":2389.658,"body":"organizations more and more to deliver"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2389.658,"endTime":2391.758,"body":"more features, deliver them on time."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2392.278,"endTime":2394.458,"body":"Now, if you're always under"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2392.278,"endTime":2394.458,"body":"pressure to deliver more"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2394.458,"endTime":2396.198,"body":"features on time, what happens?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2397.293,"endTime":2399.053,"body":"Your technical debt is going to build."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2399.903,"endTime":2404.263,"body":"So I think the world's at a conflict right"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2399.903,"endTime":2404.263,"body":"now as more companies are using software"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2404.263,"endTime":2407.903,"body":"to drive revenues, even companies like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2404.263,"endTime":2407.903,"body":"you wouldn't think are software companies."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2407.903,"endTime":2410.503,"body":"I think technical debt takes a hit."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2411.083,"endTime":2413.503,"body":"so here's some like other"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2411.083,"endTime":2413.503,"body":"stuff that I can see."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2415.583,"endTime":2418.573,"body":"How is this important or what"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2415.583,"endTime":2418.573,"body":"is the most important point?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2418.583,"endTime":2424.003,"body":"It's that you need to understand how does"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2418.583,"endTime":2424.003,"body":"this technical debt influence revenue?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2424.003,"endTime":2425.313,"body":"I think that's the best thing."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2425.313,"endTime":2428.513,"body":"If you're a manager to be"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2425.313,"endTime":2428.513,"body":"able to explain that, how does"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2428.513,"endTime":2430.263,"body":"technical debt influence revenue?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2430.833,"endTime":2434.183,"body":"You use a tool like LinearB or"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2430.833,"endTime":2434.183,"body":"other tools out there that you"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2434.183,"endTime":2438.973,"body":"can actually say, look, here's all"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2434.183,"endTime":2438.973,"body":"the bugs coming into our system."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2438.973,"endTime":2442.183,"body":"Here's all the incidents"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2438.973,"endTime":2442.183,"body":"that we found in production."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2442.193,"endTime":2445.423,"body":"Now look at our on time software delivery."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2445.558,"endTime":2446.378,"body":"It's suffering."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2447.44,"endTime":2449.56,"body":"our planning accuracy is really low."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2449.61,"endTime":2454.3,"body":"I can show that coming in, all these"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2449.61,"endTime":2454.3,"body":"bugs, our developers are forced to go deal"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2454.3,"endTime":2458.79,"body":"with, code quality issues in prod, and"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2454.3,"endTime":2458.79,"body":"therefore projects aren't delivered on"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2458.79,"endTime":2460.34,"body":"time, and this is our number one issue."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2460.51,"endTime":2462.77,"body":"Generating a revenue project."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2463.25,"endTime":2465.96,"body":"I'd like to talk about it with"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2463.25,"endTime":2465.96,"body":"the business so we can do it more."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2465.96,"endTime":2469.39,"body":"I think that's like the change"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2465.96,"endTime":2469.39,"body":"that the industry needs to make."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2469.75,"endTime":2472.32,"body":"And the other thing is like the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2469.75,"endTime":2472.32,"body":"point that I just opened up with"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2472.33,"endTime":2477.1,"body":"where it was like, do you know"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2472.33,"endTime":2477.1,"body":"how much time you are allocating"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2477.17,"endTime":2479.02,"body":"to take down that technical debt?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2479.05,"endTime":2480.13,"body":"Is it 5%?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2480.19,"endTime":2481.22,"body":"Is it 10%?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2481.395,"endTime":2482.475,"body":"Is it proper?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2482.475,"endTime":2484.025,"body":"Like 15 to 20%?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2484.855,"endTime":2488.385,"body":"And if you can show and visualize"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2484.855,"endTime":2488.385,"body":"that we do that with our profitable"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2488.385,"endTime":2491.975,"body":"engineering module, when you show"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2488.385,"endTime":2491.975,"body":"that to someone on the business"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2491.975,"endTime":2494.605,"body":"side, they light up, Oh, I get it."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2494.615,"endTime":2495.645,"body":"These aren't dumb people."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2495.645,"endTime":2498.125,"body":"They understand now that"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2495.645,"endTime":2498.125,"body":"the software matters."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2498.445,"endTime":2501.425,"body":"So you've got to make sure that you're"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2498.445,"endTime":2501.425,"body":"allocating time to take it down."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2501.475,"endTime":2503.695,"body":"Overall, Ben, this one"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2501.475,"endTime":2503.695,"body":"makes total sense to me."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2503.695,"endTime":2505.925,"body":"I think it's more about how we fix it now."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2506.687,"endTime":2509.797,"body":"So before I let you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2506.687,"endTime":2509.797,"body":"go, I just want to ask is there anything"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2509.827,"endTime":2514.847,"body":"else in the stack overflow developer"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2509.827,"endTime":2514.847,"body":"survey that you would love to see like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2514.867,"endTime":2516.929,"body":"them explore more deeply next year?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2517.982,"endTime":2519.542,"body":"I'll start with your idea, Ben."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2519.542,"endTime":2521.192,"body":"I think you already talked about it."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2521.202,"endTime":2525.642,"body":"Everyone wants to see technologies,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2521.202,"endTime":2525.642,"body":"most technologies used, tools used."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2525.642,"endTime":2529.312,"body":"I think with AI also, there's so"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2525.642,"endTime":2529.312,"body":"many companies and startups there."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2529.312,"endTime":2533.852,"body":"It'd be interesting to get some opinions"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2529.312,"endTime":2533.852,"body":"on, which ones Are pleasant to work with,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2533.852,"endTime":2535.292,"body":"which ones aren't working, all of that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2535.329,"endTime":2537.329,"body":"And do they"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2535.329,"endTime":2537.329,"body":"actually make you happier at work, for"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2537.552,"endTime":2538.662,"body":"Do they make you happier?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2538.662,"endTime":2543.112,"body":"But, and where I'm more interested"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2538.662,"endTime":2543.112,"body":"is, do they drive productivity?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2543.452,"endTime":2546.082,"body":"With LinearB, we're"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2543.452,"endTime":2546.082,"body":"all about productivity."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2546.122,"endTime":2550.652,"body":"I want to see, developers that are"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2546.122,"endTime":2550.652,"body":"happy because they're productive."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2550.652,"endTime":2553.922,"body":"And I think it's important because if"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2550.652,"endTime":2553.922,"body":"you do a developer survey and you're"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2553.922,"endTime":2557.552,"body":"looking at developer happiness, and"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2553.922,"endTime":2557.552,"body":"you're looking at developer experience,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2557.552,"endTime":2562.617,"body":"if you Asked probably the ones that"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2557.552,"endTime":2562.617,"body":"are like in that 20 percent happiness."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2563.097,"endTime":2565.227,"body":"They probably feel good about"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2563.097,"endTime":2565.227,"body":"getting their work done."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2565.227,"endTime":2566.077,"body":"They're productive."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2566.087,"endTime":2570.477,"body":"They feel like feeling productive is"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2566.087,"endTime":2570.477,"body":"a good experience for most people."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2570.777,"endTime":2573.967,"body":"So I'd like to see them build"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2570.777,"endTime":2573.967,"body":"out that developer productivity"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2574.207,"endTime":2578.047,"body":"section, more stuff on what are the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2574.207,"endTime":2578.047,"body":"friction impactors or what, what"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2578.047,"endTime":2579.997,"body":"do you need to be more productive?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2580.452,"endTime":2583.272,"body":"think if they build that"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2580.452,"endTime":2583.272,"body":"out, that's actually the way"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2583.272,"endTime":2585.102,"body":"to increase the happiness."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2585.472,"endTime":2587.432,"body":"What do we need to do with automations?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2587.432,"endTime":2589.552,"body":"There's a lot of agentic"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2587.432,"endTime":2589.552,"body":"bot stuff going on."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2589.562,"endTime":2592.132,"body":"That's what I focus on,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2589.562,"endTime":2592.132,"body":"like the productivity side."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2592.699,"endTime":2594.539,"body":"Thank you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2592.699,"endTime":2594.539,"body":"for joining us today, Dan."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2594.89,"endTime":2595.54,"body":"Yeah, man."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2595.55,"endTime":2596.25,"body":"Thanks for having me."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2596.704,"endTime":2598.224,"body":"And"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2596.704,"endTime":2598.224,"body":"that's it for today's show."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2598.504,"endTime":2599.384,"body":"We hope you enjoyed it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2599.444,"endTime":2603.394,"body":"If you're looking for more insight from"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2599.444,"endTime":2603.394,"body":"engineering leaders, head over to the Dev"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2603.394,"endTime":2608.061,"body":"Interrupted sub stack for weekly articles"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2603.394,"endTime":2608.061,"body":"and deep dives on our favorite episodes."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2608.341,"endTime":2611.061,"body":"And don't forget to subscribe"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2608.341,"endTime":2611.061,"body":"to our YouTube channel."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2611.081,"endTime":2613.527,"body":"We put all of our favorite"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2611.081,"endTime":2613.527,"body":"moments from episode."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2614.087,"endTime":2617.257,"body":"We love to hear from our audience,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2614.087,"endTime":2617.257,"body":"so find us on Twitter or on"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2617.257,"endTime":2619.137,"body":"LinkedIn at Dev Interrupted."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2619.297,"endTime":2622.267,"body":"Or leave a comment directly in the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2619.297,"endTime":2622.267,"body":"Spotify app and let us know what"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2622.277,"endTime":2623.647,"body":"you think of this week's episode."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2624.077,"endTime":2624.867,"body":"We'll see you next week."}]}