{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":0.0,"endTime":2.629,"body":"you've already"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":0.0,"endTime":2.629,"body":"shared one example of where blowing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2.629,"endTime":6.976,"body":"up A process or a group of processes"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2.629,"endTime":6.976,"body":"might be effective, But how do, how"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":6.976,"endTime":11.276,"body":"do you weigh changes like that versus"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":6.976,"endTime":11.276,"body":"something that might be more incremental?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":20.602,"endTime":24.342,"body":"Hey, Dev Interrupted listeners,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":20.602,"endTime":24.342,"body":"I'm Ben Lloyd Pearson, your host."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":24.382,"endTime":28.712,"body":"And today I am extremely happy"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":24.382,"endTime":28.712,"body":"to be joined by Julianna Lamb."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":29.052,"endTime":31.812,"body":"She's the co founder and CTO at Stytch."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":32.022,"endTime":34.592,"body":"Julianna, thank you for joining us today."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":35.663,"endTime":37.053,"body":"Thanks so"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":35.663,"endTime":37.053,"body":"much for having me on."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":37.328,"endTime":39.308,"body":"you know, the big"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":37.328,"endTime":39.308,"body":"thing that, that caught my attention"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":39.308,"endTime":43.588,"body":"recently that you've, you've been working"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":39.308,"endTime":43.588,"body":"on, came from this talk that you gave"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":43.878,"endTime":48.275,"body":"at Lead Dev recently about, various"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":43.878,"endTime":48.275,"body":"processes within engineering teams."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":48.995,"endTime":51.715,"body":"and we'll give a, we'll give a link"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":48.995,"endTime":51.715,"body":"to that, talk in the show notes."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":52.235,"endTime":55.185,"body":"I really want to get your"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":52.235,"endTime":55.185,"body":"thoughts around how to build."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":55.45,"endTime":57.31,"body":"Processes for engineering teams."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":57.62,"endTime":61.61,"body":"but before I get into that, I really want"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":57.62,"endTime":61.61,"body":"to ask, when you bring up this concept"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":61.69,"endTime":65.993,"body":"of engineering process, do developers"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":61.69,"endTime":65.993,"body":"ever just run away in fear from you?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":66.753,"endTime":71.653,"body":"process is often a bad"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":66.753,"endTime":71.653,"body":"word in engineering teams and, carries"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":71.653,"endTime":74.093,"body":"a lot of negative connotations, I think."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":74.093,"endTime":80.293,"body":"And I think part of the reason for that"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":74.093,"endTime":80.293,"body":"is people really often do process wrong"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":80.293,"endTime":84.223,"body":"in a way that is hurtful, slows down"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":80.293,"endTime":84.223,"body":"velocity, and, and doesn't really sort"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":84.223,"endTime":88.058,"body":"of like, end up helping the team or"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":84.223,"endTime":88.058,"body":"people don't understand like why they're"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":88.058,"endTime":89.808,"body":"doing the processes that they're doing."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":90.078,"endTime":93.798,"body":"but I also think sometimes people are"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":90.078,"endTime":93.798,"body":"suffering from not enough process and"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":93.798,"endTime":98.128,"body":"it can be good and really comes down"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":93.798,"endTime":98.128,"body":"to like finding what works for you."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":98.148,"endTime":101.798,"body":"But I think, we often don't"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":98.148,"endTime":101.798,"body":"spend enough time kind of like."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":101.958,"endTime":105.248,"body":"Digging into our processes,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":101.958,"endTime":105.248,"body":"figuring out on an ongoing basis,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":105.258,"endTime":106.548,"body":"are these working for the team?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":106.798,"endTime":111.078,"body":"Are these helping engineers feel, like,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":106.798,"endTime":111.078,"body":"a sense of ownership over the work that"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":111.078,"endTime":112.448,"body":"they're doing and all of these things?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":112.448,"endTime":117.208,"body":"And so, yeah, definitely, not most"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":112.448,"endTime":117.208,"body":"people's favorite topic as a result, so"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":117.218,"endTime":121.268,"body":"hoping I can, I can maybe change that a"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":117.218,"endTime":121.268,"body":"little bit and tell you why, process can"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":121.287,"endTime":121.637,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":121.667,"endTime":124.962,"body":"Well, as someone who's a big fan of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":121.667,"endTime":124.962,"body":"documentation, I've, I've long been"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":124.972,"endTime":129.182,"body":"used to being really like caring"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":124.972,"endTime":129.182,"body":"very deeply about something that no"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":129.182,"endTime":130.972,"body":"developers want to spend time on."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":131.847,"endTime":133.687,"body":"Uh, so that, that's, that's great."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":133.697,"endTime":139.047,"body":"So, so let's maybe try to help break down"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":133.697,"endTime":139.047,"body":"some of that fear around this concept"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":139.047,"endTime":142.357,"body":"of process, because, you know, I have"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":139.047,"endTime":142.357,"body":"been in positions in the past where I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":142.367,"endTime":145.907,"body":"have to help engineering organizations"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":142.367,"endTime":145.907,"body":"with process and, you know, I have"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":145.907,"endTime":149.667,"body":"felt much of that resistance that,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":145.907,"endTime":149.667,"body":"that I think comes along with it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":150.352,"endTime":153.792,"body":"But, you know, from my experience,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":150.352,"endTime":153.792,"body":"like when you get it right, it's like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":153.802,"endTime":159.616,"body":"you're sort of, it's less about forcing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":153.802,"endTime":159.616,"body":"developers to do something just because"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":159.616,"endTime":162.826,"body":"it has to be done and more about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":159.616,"endTime":162.826,"body":"unblocking them and giving them the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":162.826,"endTime":166.346,"body":"best path forward to be successful,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":162.826,"endTime":166.346,"body":"like on their own, I think often."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":166.756,"endTime":170.676,"body":"So let's talk about like how you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":166.756,"endTime":170.676,"body":"right size processes for teams."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":170.676,"endTime":174.266,"body":"Like what is, what is the way"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":170.676,"endTime":174.266,"body":"that you go about evaluating how"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":174.266,"endTime":177.376,"body":"much, like whether a team needs"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":174.266,"endTime":177.376,"body":"more or less process, for example?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":178.271,"endTime":182.451,"body":"Yeah, so I'll start with"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":178.271,"endTime":182.451,"body":"a case where, teams need less process, so"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":182.451,"endTime":185.436,"body":"I think that's Often a more common case."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":185.736,"endTime":189.936,"body":"and I think the way that this ends up"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":185.736,"endTime":189.936,"body":"happening is like things just evolve"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":189.936,"endTime":193.166,"body":"over time and you just keep kind of"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":189.936,"endTime":193.166,"body":"like layering on additional processes."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":193.826,"endTime":197.676,"body":"You try new things and you just sort"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":193.826,"endTime":197.676,"body":"of never re evaluate whether like all"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":197.676,"endTime":201.606,"body":"of these different processes, and the"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":197.676,"endTime":201.606,"body":"ways that You're sort of going about"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":201.606,"endTime":204.126,"body":"doing them are the best way to do it."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":204.446,"endTime":207.936,"body":"and I think what ends up happening then"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":204.446,"endTime":207.936,"body":"is people get really focused on kind of"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":207.946,"endTime":212.836,"body":"like, you know, the metrics related to"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":207.946,"endTime":212.836,"body":"processes, like, really obsessing over"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":212.836,"endTime":217.322,"body":"kind of the process and celebrating"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":212.836,"endTime":217.322,"body":"the success of adhering to the process"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":217.332,"endTime":220.442,"body":"versus celebrating the success of"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":217.332,"endTime":220.442,"body":"like the work that you're doing, the"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":220.452,"endTime":222.272,"body":"impact you're having on customers."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":222.652,"endTime":224.362,"body":"And so I think whenever a team feels like."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":224.677,"endTime":227.937,"body":"So rotated on process that those are"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":224.677,"endTime":227.937,"body":"the things that are coming up, you"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":227.937,"endTime":232.057,"body":"know, in like performance reviews,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":227.937,"endTime":232.057,"body":"and like really commonly sort of like"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":232.077,"endTime":236.007,"body":"talked about in terms of whether a"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":232.077,"endTime":236.007,"body":"team is performing is like, how good"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":236.007,"endTime":237.547,"body":"are they at adhering to the process?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":237.547,"endTime":237.877,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":238.137,"endTime":239.927,"body":"Like at the end of the day,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":238.137,"endTime":239.927,"body":"what you're trying to do is"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":239.927,"endTime":240.877,"body":"you're trying to ship software."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":241.307,"endTime":246.547,"body":"And so process can be helpful in doing so,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":241.307,"endTime":246.547,"body":"but can also kind of like get to the state"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":246.547,"endTime":248.147,"body":"where you're just like so bogged down."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":248.417,"endTime":252.177,"body":"I think another common symptom is just"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":248.417,"endTime":252.177,"body":"like, Having to go through so many"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":252.177,"endTime":255.607,"body":"steps, to get something across the"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":252.177,"endTime":255.607,"body":"finish line, you know, get sign off from"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":255.607,"endTime":258.827,"body":"so many different teams have to like"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":255.607,"endTime":258.827,"body":"produce all of these different artifacts."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":258.827,"endTime":262.907,"body":"And like, you're just like wrangling"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":258.827,"endTime":262.907,"body":"these processes and spending time,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":263.147,"endTime":266.847,"body":"as an engineer, like significant"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":263.147,"endTime":266.847,"body":"time week over week on sort of"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":266.847,"endTime":270.377,"body":"like planning and, you know, status"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":266.847,"endTime":270.377,"body":"updates and that sort of thing."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":270.377,"endTime":273.657,"body":"Like your time as an engineer"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":270.377,"endTime":273.657,"body":"should be going largely to like"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":274.097,"endTime":277.927,"body":"Writing code, designing solutions,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":274.097,"endTime":277.927,"body":"that type of thing, right?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":278.007,"endTime":282.204,"body":"updating your, like, linear tickets,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":278.007,"endTime":282.204,"body":"is helpful to a degree, but if"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":282.204,"endTime":285.334,"body":"you're spending hours every week,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":282.204,"endTime":285.334,"body":"kind of, like, on that piece, that's"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":285.334,"endTime":286.874,"body":"probably an inefficient use of time."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":287.204,"endTime":291.934,"body":"I think another symptom is"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":287.204,"endTime":291.934,"body":"that people just, like, really"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":291.934,"endTime":293.084,"body":"complain about the process."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":293.444,"endTime":296.774,"body":"that might mean that, not necessarily"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":293.444,"endTime":296.774,"body":"that there's too much, but that"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":296.794,"endTime":300.534,"body":"the reason behind the process is,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":296.794,"endTime":300.534,"body":"is not clear to people or people"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":300.534,"endTime":301.964,"body":"don't really see the value in it."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":301.974,"endTime":306.084,"body":"So maybe it's, it's just the wrong"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":301.974,"endTime":306.084,"body":"process versus too much in that case,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":306.114,"endTime":310.024,"body":"but that just signifies that there's"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":306.114,"endTime":310.024,"body":"some sort of mismatch there of people"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":310.024,"endTime":312.904,"body":"not really sort of like understanding"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":310.024,"endTime":312.904,"body":"the value of what they're doing."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":313.334,"endTime":317.719,"body":"I think on the flip side, uh, in"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":313.334,"endTime":317.719,"body":"terms of Not having enough process."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":317.749,"endTime":322.359,"body":"Often what that will look like is, people"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":317.749,"endTime":322.359,"body":"having to spend a bunch of time kind of"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":322.379,"endTime":324.869,"body":"on, wrangling different stakeholders."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":324.889,"endTime":327.939,"body":"Uh, maybe if you have a cross"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":324.889,"endTime":327.939,"body":"team dependency, you have to"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":327.939,"endTime":331.719,"body":"wait weeks until like that team"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":327.939,"endTime":331.719,"body":"frees up or something like that."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":331.719,"endTime":335.199,"body":"And you're just, you feel really out of"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":331.719,"endTime":335.199,"body":"sort of like lockstep with, you're sort of"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":335.199,"endTime":339.919,"body":"like peer engineering teams that probably"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":335.199,"endTime":339.919,"body":"like signals that, you know, maybe."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":340.139,"endTime":344.249,"body":"you're not being sort of like as"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":340.139,"endTime":344.249,"body":"thorough in the like planning process"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":344.279,"endTime":346.499,"body":"at the beginning of the quarter"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":344.279,"endTime":346.499,"body":"or whatever time period you're"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":346.499,"endTime":350.339,"body":"planning for, not identifying those"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":346.499,"endTime":350.339,"body":"dependencies in a way that like lets"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":350.339,"endTime":351.859,"body":"you kind of get in sync with others."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":351.869,"endTime":355.639,"body":"So you can really reduce that sort"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":351.869,"endTime":355.639,"body":"of like cross team, coordination."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":356.119,"endTime":360.342,"body":"I think if you're having to spend like"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":356.119,"endTime":360.342,"body":"a ton of time, week after week, like"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":360.342,"endTime":363.686,"body":"figuring out what you're working on,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":360.342,"endTime":363.686,"body":"that also probably means that you didn't"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":363.686,"endTime":365.966,"body":"plan out quite far enough in advance."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":365.996,"endTime":370.786,"body":"I think there's like a careful balance"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":365.996,"endTime":370.786,"body":"of like, we use a quarterly timeframe,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":370.786,"endTime":372.476,"body":"which I think is, is fairly common."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":372.516,"endTime":376.576,"body":"And I think we want to get like"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":372.516,"endTime":376.576,"body":"directionally correct for the quarter."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":376.606,"endTime":380.006,"body":"But if we a hundred percent predict"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":376.606,"endTime":380.006,"body":"what we did in a given quarter,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":380.206,"endTime":382.726,"body":"like that probably means that we"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":380.206,"endTime":382.726,"body":"spent too much time on planning."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":383.271,"endTime":386.551,"body":"And if we get you know, 10 percent right,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":383.271,"endTime":386.551,"body":"that also probably means we didn't spend"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":386.551,"endTime":390.364,"body":"enough time on planning because finding"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":386.551,"endTime":390.364,"body":"that balance of like, okay, we want"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":390.364,"endTime":394.124,"body":"to invest some time to like be able to"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":390.364,"endTime":394.124,"body":"reduce coordination costs, but we also"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":394.124,"endTime":397.794,"body":"don't want to like cause a bunch of"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":394.124,"endTime":397.794,"body":"thrash if we don't do enough planning"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":397.814,"endTime":402.124,"body":"or spend so much time on planning"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":397.814,"endTime":402.124,"body":"that, uh, we get it perfectly right."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":402.124,"endTime":405.004,"body":"Also, we probably weren't adapting"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":402.124,"endTime":405.004,"body":"to new things as they were coming in."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":405.014,"endTime":408.394,"body":"Cause I don't think, especially at"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":405.014,"endTime":408.394,"body":"a startup, you can perfectly say,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":408.394,"endTime":410.424,"body":"okay, this is what we're going"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":408.394,"endTime":410.424,"body":"to do for the entire quarter."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":411.108,"endTime":411.718,"body":"Yeah, awesome."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":411.718,"endTime":413.698,"body":"That's a ton of wonderful insight."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":413.698,"endTime":417.908,"body":"And one thing that really stuck out"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":413.698,"endTime":417.908,"body":"to me, you know, I hear a lot of like,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":418.158,"endTime":421.678,"body":"right sizing things for the inputs and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":418.158,"endTime":421.678,"body":"outputs the engineering organization"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":421.688,"endTime":427.06,"body":"has, because we frequently hear that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":421.688,"endTime":427.06,"body":"Very common source of frustration with"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":427.08,"endTime":431.34,"body":"developers, are things that are viewed"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":427.08,"endTime":431.34,"body":"as like outside of their control."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":431.35,"endTime":435.7,"body":"So that could be like, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":431.35,"endTime":435.7,"body":"your product design inputs, not being"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":435.75,"endTime":440.34,"body":"complete enough for what the engineering"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":435.75,"endTime":440.34,"body":"team needs, like just as one example."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":440.81,"endTime":443.406,"body":"but then there's also a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":440.81,"endTime":443.406,"body":"processes like on the backend and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":443.446,"endTime":445.686,"body":"engineers, uh, responsibilities."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":445.706,"endTime":448.866,"body":"And like, if you're not getting"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":445.706,"endTime":448.866,"body":"those, like that balance, right."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":448.876,"endTime":452.932,"body":"Then that  typically creates a lot"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":448.876,"endTime":452.932,"body":"of frustration within the developers"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":453.022,"endTime":456.382,"body":"life, So let's, let's talk a little"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":453.022,"endTime":456.382,"body":"bit then about, you know, how you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":456.382,"endTime":458.902,"body":"apply this to your role at Stitch."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":458.962,"endTime":461.432,"body":"you're a CTO there."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":461.432,"endTime":465.232,"body":"So first of all, like how big of a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":461.432,"endTime":465.232,"body":"team are you overseeing right now?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":466.403,"endTime":466.843,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":466.873,"endTime":470.753,"body":"So Stitch as a whole is, around 70 people."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":470.782,"endTime":477.082,"body":"the, engineering product and design teams"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":470.782,"endTime":477.082,"body":"are around 35 people, and majority of"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":477.112,"endTime":479.072,"body":"those are, are on engineering as well."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":479.072,"endTime":483.032,"body":"And so I, I definitely spend a good"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":479.072,"endTime":483.032,"body":"chunk of my time kind of focused"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":483.032,"endTime":486.152,"body":"on like the engineering org as a"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":483.032,"endTime":486.152,"body":"whole, in addition to kind of like"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":486.222,"endTime":488.562,"body":"the EPD teams that I oversee, in its"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":488.671,"endTime":488.911,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":488.911,"endTime":491.921,"body":"And is this a, like a mostly"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":488.911,"endTime":491.921,"body":"remote team or is it hybrid?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":491.931,"endTime":492.811,"body":"Do you have an office?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":493.632,"endTime":495.342,"body":"Yeah, we are hybrid."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":495.342,"endTime":497.932,"body":"So yeah, I'm in our office"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":495.342,"endTime":497.932,"body":"in San Francisco today."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":498.172,"endTime":501.452,"body":"we also have a small office in New"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":498.172,"endTime":501.452,"body":"York and then we have people spread"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":501.462,"endTime":503.002,"body":"out throughout the United States."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":503.012,"endTime":506.722,"body":"So we're, we're fairly limited"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":503.012,"endTime":506.722,"body":"on time zones, but then hybrid,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":506.842,"endTime":508.392,"body":"within sort of, yeah, the U."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":508.392,"endTime":508.702,"body":"S."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":508.911,"endTime":509.311,"body":"Awesome."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":509.321,"endTime":513.071,"body":"So, I understand that you have"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":509.321,"endTime":513.071,"body":"a, a, a way of coming up with"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":513.071,"endTime":514.917,"body":"a life cycle for every project."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":515.171,"endTime":517.901,"body":"walk us through, like with this team"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":515.171,"endTime":517.901,"body":"that you just described, like what's,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":517.931,"endTime":521.561,"body":"what's the typical life cycle, uh,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":517.931,"endTime":521.561,"body":"within your engineering organization?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":522.358,"endTime":522.738,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":522.768,"endTime":527.268,"body":"So what we've tried to do is basically"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":522.768,"endTime":527.268,"body":"define some sort of like interfaces that"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":527.908,"endTime":533.298,"body":"are standardized across the EPD team,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":527.908,"endTime":533.298,"body":"uh, and then give teams and individual"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":533.298,"endTime":537.698,"body":"projects, flexibility on kind of, like,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":533.298,"endTime":537.698,"body":"how they want to adhere to that interface."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":537.898,"endTime":540.968,"body":"Um, so the, like, week to week"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":537.898,"endTime":540.968,"body":"planning, is very much, up to"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":540.968,"endTime":543.318,"body":"the individuals on a project."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":543.502,"endTime":546.212,"body":"Um, week to week planning"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":543.502,"endTime":546.212,"body":"is very much up to the team."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":546.272,"endTime":550.712,"body":"And then at the quarterly level, uh, we"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":546.272,"endTime":550.712,"body":"try and be really consistent across EPD."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":551.012,"endTime":553.472,"body":"Uh, and then there's some things"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":551.012,"endTime":553.472,"body":"on an ongoing basis that, that"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":553.472,"endTime":554.962,"body":"we also try and keep consistent."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":555.252,"endTime":559.382,"body":"and the reason for that is to be able to,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":555.252,"endTime":559.382,"body":"uh, make sure that we're getting ahead"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":559.382,"endTime":563.022,"body":"of like those cross team dependencies,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":559.382,"endTime":563.022,"body":"that people have enough context on"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":563.022,"endTime":567.518,"body":"what other teams are working on, status"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":563.022,"endTime":567.518,"body":"of projects, that teams external to"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":567.518,"endTime":570.738,"body":"engineering have the context they need,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":567.518,"endTime":570.738,"body":"whether that's like our sales team,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":570.993,"endTime":572.863,"body":"our developer success team, et cetera."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":573.073,"endTime":576.263,"body":"so we try and be really consistent"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":573.073,"endTime":576.263,"body":"at that level, but then give people"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":576.263,"endTime":579.673,"body":"that ownership of figuring out, okay,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":576.263,"endTime":579.673,"body":"how do we want to run this project?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":579.973,"endTime":583.653,"body":"the other thing that we do, I think,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":579.973,"endTime":583.653,"body":"part of this is because of the sort"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":583.653,"endTime":585.233,"body":"of like hybrid nature of our team."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":585.518,"endTime":588.678,"body":"We started the company in 2020,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":585.518,"endTime":588.678,"body":"so we started fully remote and"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":588.678,"endTime":592.118,"body":"then moved to hybrid once, we"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":588.678,"endTime":592.118,"body":"could be back in an office."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":592.488,"endTime":596.198,"body":"we're pretty doc heavy and spend a"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":592.488,"endTime":596.198,"body":"lot of time on sort of like upfront,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":596.408,"endTime":599.918,"body":"figuring out what we're building and"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":596.408,"endTime":599.918,"body":"then try and be a lot more kind of"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":599.918,"endTime":603.188,"body":"like lightweight on the process side"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":599.918,"endTime":603.188,"body":"once you get into implementation."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":603.558,"endTime":607.818,"body":"So we think if we are all aligned on what"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":603.558,"endTime":607.818,"body":"the goals are for our project and, sort"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":607.818,"endTime":612.705,"body":"of like the major technical decisions, the"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":607.818,"endTime":612.705,"body":"rest will, like, easily work itself out."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":612.715,"endTime":615.485,"body":"as things come up, if you're aligned"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":612.715,"endTime":615.485,"body":"on kind of, like, the overall"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":615.485,"endTime":618.495,"body":"direction, there might be some"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":615.485,"endTime":618.495,"body":"questions or, like, some decisions"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":618.495,"endTime":622.035,"body":"you have to make, but overall, you're"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":618.495,"endTime":622.035,"body":"able to kind of just, like, focus on"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":622.045,"endTime":624.285,"body":"execution once a project gets going."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":624.665,"endTime":629.18,"body":"so what that looks like is we We'll"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":624.665,"endTime":629.18,"body":"spend time on, what we call one"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":629.18,"endTime":631.2,"body":"pagers during quarterly planning."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":631.73,"endTime":635.68,"body":"A one pager is basically to say, okay,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":631.73,"endTime":635.68,"body":"t shirt size this project, what is the"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":635.68,"endTime":639.69,"body":"overall kind of like motivation for this,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":635.68,"endTime":639.69,"body":"why are we thinking about building this."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":640.125,"endTime":644.505,"body":"what are maybe some potential solutions,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":640.125,"endTime":644.505,"body":"just so we have enough to say, okay, is"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":644.525,"endTime":649.325,"body":"the, scope of this project, uh, for the"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":644.525,"endTime":649.325,"body":"impact that it could have worthwhile"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":649.365,"endTime":651.575,"body":"to try and bring it into this quarter?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":651.775,"endTime":654.585,"body":"If we do prioritize it, what does"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":651.775,"endTime":654.585,"body":"that mean in terms of what the"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":654.585,"endTime":656.235,"body":"team's, quarter as a whole looks like?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":656.235,"endTime":657.465,"body":"How much time is it gonna take?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":657.695,"endTime":658.515,"body":"That sort of thing."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":658.853,"endTime":662.873,"body":"Once we decide what we're going to"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":658.853,"endTime":662.873,"body":"work on for a given quarter, we kind"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":662.873,"endTime":667.183,"body":"of do this, stack ranking of projects,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":662.873,"endTime":667.183,"body":"and we draw what we call a cut line."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":667.483,"endTime":671.393,"body":"So we say, okay, here's like the top,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":667.483,"endTime":671.393,"body":"ten projects this team could work on."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":671.613,"endTime":673.773,"body":"We think we're going to get"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":671.613,"endTime":673.773,"body":"through the top eight of them."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":673.963,"endTime":676.653,"body":"but in case we have more time,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":673.963,"endTime":676.653,"body":"here are the next two that"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":676.653,"endTime":677.733,"body":"we want to be thinking about."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":678.243,"endTime":680.853,"body":"Then what we do is we"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":678.243,"endTime":680.853,"body":"do what we call tiling."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":680.863,"endTime":685.943,"body":"We basically have, Google Sheets for"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":680.863,"endTime":685.943,"body":"each of the teams with everyone on"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":685.943,"endTime":690.483,"body":"that team listed out and we kind of"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":685.943,"endTime":690.483,"body":"like Week by week, roughly estimate"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":690.483,"endTime":691.843,"body":"what people are going to be working on."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":692.193,"endTime":695.613,"body":"This is super helpful when there are"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":692.193,"endTime":695.613,"body":"those cross team dependencies, so maybe"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":695.92,"endTime":699.09,"body":"project that our web team is working"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":695.92,"endTime":699.09,"body":"on needs infrastructure support."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":699.09,"endTime":702.57,"body":"For example, kind of knowing like when"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":699.09,"endTime":702.57,"body":"in the quarter it's going to be tackled."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":702.57,"endTime":706.52,"body":"It's meant to be pretty low fidelity, but"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":702.57,"endTime":706.52,"body":"give kind of like directional estimates."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":706.975,"endTime":709.675,"body":"So we've done that, we're like"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":706.975,"endTime":709.675,"body":"ready to kick off a project."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":709.785,"endTime":711.005,"body":"We have that one pager."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":711.225,"endTime":714.905,"body":"what we'll do is, expand that a little"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":711.225,"endTime":714.905,"body":"bit into what we call a project brief,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":715.235,"endTime":717.125,"body":"uh, and have a project kickoff meeting."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":717.455,"endTime":720.445,"body":"It's really focused on just, like,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":717.455,"endTime":720.445,"body":"making sure everyone's aligned on kind"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":720.445,"endTime":725.125,"body":"of, like, what we're doing here, any,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":720.445,"endTime":725.125,"body":"like, limitations we might have, any"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":725.125,"endTime":726.705,"body":"sort of, like, timeline constraints."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":727.22,"endTime":729.49,"body":"what are the problems we're"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":727.22,"endTime":729.49,"body":"trying to solve for our customers?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":729.79,"endTime":735.13,"body":"and then from there we go and sort of"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":729.79,"endTime":735.13,"body":"flesh out if there's the need for a PRD."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":735.14,"endTime":738.82,"body":"If this is a more like customer"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":735.14,"endTime":738.82,"body":"facing product, product team will"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":738.83,"endTime":740.91,"body":"work on, on fleshing out that PRD."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":741.273,"endTime":745.833,"body":"And from there, we'll go and write"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":741.273,"endTime":745.833,"body":"the tech spec for a more sort of"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":745.833,"endTime":747.223,"body":"like engineering driven project."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":747.223,"endTime":752.97,"body":"We might skip the PRD phase and just go"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":747.223,"endTime":752.97,"body":"from that project brief to the tech spec."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":753.313,"endTime":756.95,"body":"So it's kind of like how we set up"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":753.313,"endTime":756.95,"body":"projects and again, spend a lot of time."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":756.95,"endTime":760.53,"body":"Like these are quite a few docs,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":756.95,"endTime":760.53,"body":"like this is fairly involved."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":760.53,"endTime":764.751,"body":"And I think that's designed intentionally"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":760.53,"endTime":764.751,"body":"so that once you get going, once you"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":764.751,"endTime":768.058,"body":"have that text back and you have sign"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":764.751,"endTime":768.058,"body":"off, you're off to the races, you figure"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":768.058,"endTime":773.468,"body":"out, how do I want to break this down,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":768.058,"endTime":773.468,"body":"do I want to do stand ups, synchronously,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":773.468,"endTime":776.018,"body":"asynchronously, nothing at all, what"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":773.468,"endTime":776.018,"body":"is, what does that look like, uh,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":776.038,"endTime":777.448,"body":"people have a ton of freedom there."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":777.789,"endTime":780.089,"body":"It's fascinating"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":777.789,"endTime":780.089,"body":"because it sounds like you have like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":780.109,"endTime":785.079,"body":"lots of like habits and rituals that are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":780.109,"endTime":785.079,"body":"sort of ingrained into your culture that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":785.494,"endTime":789.114,"body":"So, you know, the feedback or the, what"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":785.494,"endTime":789.114,"body":"I'm sensing is there's a really tight"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":789.114,"endTime":792.824,"body":"connection between your engineering team"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":789.114,"endTime":792.824,"body":"and your product team would like, would"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":792.824,"endTime":794.364,"body":"you say that that's pretty accurate?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":795.095,"endTime":799.215,"body":"Yeah, that's definitely"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":795.095,"endTime":799.215,"body":"the case, and I think, as a DevTools"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":799.235,"endTime":804.085,"body":"company, like, that is, uh, Easier"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":799.235,"endTime":804.085,"body":"in some ways, but also I think really"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":804.085,"endTime":807.298,"body":"critical in other ways, because we're"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":804.085,"endTime":807.298,"body":"building for engineers, our engineers"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":807.298,"endTime":810.938,"body":"are going to have some of the best"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":807.298,"endTime":810.938,"body":"ideas about what we code and should"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":814.08,"endTime":816.42,"body":"Tell us, if this problem"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":814.08,"endTime":816.42,"body":"sounds familiar to you."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":816.75,"endTime":820.35,"body":"You want to use engineering metrics to"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":816.75,"endTime":820.35,"body":"improve your work, but every time you try."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":820.77,"endTime":824.55,"body":"You realize there's a gap between the"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":820.77,"endTime":824.55,"body":"metrics world and your team's reality."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":824.994,"endTime":828.144,"body":"And even with all the frameworks that"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":824.994,"endTime":828.144,"body":"already exist, is there enough context?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":828.174,"endTime":831.444,"body":"Text to make an informed decision"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":828.174,"endTime":831.444,"body":"about what metrics to focus on."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":832.164,"endTime":834.504,"body":"That's why LinearB is"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":832.164,"endTime":834.504,"body":"teaming up with refactoring."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":835.134,"endTime":836.034,"body":"Together, we're creating."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":836.184,"endTime":840.204,"body":"A comprehensive industry report"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":836.184,"endTime":840.204,"body":"about how engineering teams use data."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":840.324,"endTime":842.304,"body":"And metrics to improve their practices."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":842.604,"endTime":843.504,"body":"But we need your help."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":844.044,"endTime":847.554,"body":"launching a community survey to collect"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":844.044,"endTime":847.554,"body":"real world stories that will help us."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":847.554,"endTime":850.674,"body":"Us build a practical playbook"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":847.554,"endTime":850.674,"body":"for tech leaders everywhere."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":851.184,"endTime":851.754,"body":"The best stories."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":851.844,"endTime":854.454,"body":"We'll be quoted and published"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":851.844,"endTime":854.454,"body":"with the final survey results."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":854.964,"endTime":855.624,"body":"To share your story."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":855.894,"endTime":858.264,"body":"And get a chance to help"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":855.894,"endTime":858.264,"body":"engineering leaders everywhere."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":858.594,"endTime":859.854,"body":"Visit refactoring.fm."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":860.734,"endTime":862.284,"body":"or head to the link in the show notes."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":864.81,"endTime":866.895,"body":"with process,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":864.81,"endTime":866.895,"body":"There's always going to be"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":866.895,"endTime":869.015,"body":"friction in some form or another."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":869.435,"endTime":874.015,"body":"So when, when your team is starting to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":869.435,"endTime":874.015,"body":"experience friction, you know, between"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":874.015,"endTime":878.085,"body":"all of these different like processes"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":874.015,"endTime":878.085,"body":"and ways that you have of doing things,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":878.495,"endTime":883.335,"body":"what's your method for like uncovering"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":878.495,"endTime":883.335,"body":"where that friction is and resolving it?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":884.081,"endTime":888.121,"body":"I think, digging into"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":884.081,"endTime":888.121,"body":"kind of the problems that you're seeing"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":888.121,"endTime":892.431,"body":"and just like often talking to people"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":888.121,"endTime":892.431,"body":"is like the best way to kind of uncover."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":892.706,"endTime":893.786,"body":"Where there's challenges."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":893.786,"endTime":897.426,"body":"I think sometimes, someone will flag"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":893.786,"endTime":897.426,"body":"something for me and be like, Hey,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":897.426,"endTime":901.383,"body":"this is like taking us a really long"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":897.426,"endTime":901.383,"body":"time to like get alignment on this or"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":901.383,"endTime":905.513,"body":"something like that, other cases, it'll"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":901.383,"endTime":905.513,"body":"be like, me just kind of like observing"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":905.533,"endTime":908.958,"body":"patterns of Hey, we're having to like."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":909.428,"endTime":913.878,"body":"Mid quarter, re do the Infrateam"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":909.428,"endTime":913.878,"body":"roadmap because we've uncovered this"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":913.878,"endTime":915.368,"body":"dependency or whatever it might be."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":915.578,"endTime":918.778,"body":"try and kind of like get a sense of okay,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":915.578,"endTime":918.778,"body":"maybe there's something here and, you"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":918.778,"endTime":922.968,"body":"know, it doesn't always mean that there"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":918.778,"endTime":922.968,"body":"is something, but maybe one project like"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":923.078,"endTime":927.088,"body":"had a small hiccup and it's actually"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":923.078,"endTime":927.088,"body":"not a widespread thing type of issue."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":927.348,"endTime":930.748,"body":"other times it's okay, I start digging"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":927.348,"endTime":930.748,"body":"in, I start talking to people and people"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":930.748,"endTime":936.613,"body":"are like, Yeah, it's like really hard, to"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":930.748,"endTime":936.613,"body":"get feedback from, certain stakeholders."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":936.813,"endTime":938.753,"body":"This is something we"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":936.813,"endTime":938.753,"body":"went through recently."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":938.893,"endTime":942.653,"body":"I'm spending a bunch of time like waiting"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":938.893,"endTime":942.653,"body":"for sign off or waiting for feedback."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":942.813,"endTime":945.453,"body":"takes a few days, uh,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":942.813,"endTime":945.453,"body":"to get that turned over."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":945.673,"endTime":948.983,"body":"so that was a recent sort of like"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":945.673,"endTime":948.983,"body":"thread that I was, I was pulling on."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":949.193,"endTime":954.113,"body":"and I think what we uncovered is that,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":949.193,"endTime":954.113,"body":"managers, including our product team,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":954.323,"endTime":956.273,"body":"were just like locked up in meetings."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":956.473,"endTime":960.633,"body":"basically all day, every day, and so"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":956.473,"endTime":960.633,"body":"they had like, no downtime to like,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":960.683,"endTime":965.306,"body":"review a spec, or like, respond to like,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":960.683,"endTime":965.306,"body":"Slack threads, or whatever it might be."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":965.526,"endTime":969.816,"body":"and so we ended up doing this thing a"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":965.526,"endTime":969.816,"body":"few weeks ago, where uh, we basically"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":969.816,"endTime":973.356,"body":"did a calendar reset, told everyone"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":969.816,"endTime":973.356,"body":"to cancel all their meetings,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":973.396,"endTime":975.206,"body":"and then rebuild their calendar."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":975.426,"endTime":979.225,"body":"and I think, This wasn't meant"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":975.426,"endTime":979.225,"body":"to, like, change too much of,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":979.225,"endTime":981.335,"body":"the day to day of, IC engineers."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":981.335,"endTime":985.045,"body":"I think we've been pretty good about"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":981.335,"endTime":985.045,"body":"being pretty, meeting light in that,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":985.055,"endTime":989.915,"body":"those cases, but managers and product"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":985.055,"endTime":989.915,"body":"had just, like, so many meetings, so"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":989.915,"endTime":993.085,"body":"many one on ones, all of these, siloed"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":989.915,"endTime":993.085,"body":"conversations that were happening."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":993.535,"endTime":995.695,"body":"So, like, how can we"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":993.535,"endTime":995.695,"body":"cut down on those silos?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":995.745,"endTime":1000.585,"body":"How can we push more communication async"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":995.745,"endTime":1000.585,"body":"so that we can make quicker decisions, uh,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1000.585,"endTime":1002.455,"body":"and more efficiently make those decisions?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1002.915,"endTime":1007.005,"body":"Favor, like, ad hoc meetings, to"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1002.915,"endTime":1007.005,"body":"get alignment on things versus,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1007.055,"endTime":1010.255,"body":"Scheduled recurring meetings"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1007.055,"endTime":1010.255,"body":"and that's been really helpful."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1010.375,"endTime":1014.285,"body":"It's been about a month of this so far"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1010.375,"endTime":1014.285,"body":"So we're still kind of like feeling it"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1014.285,"endTime":1018.185,"body":"out and figuring out what like rebuilding"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1014.285,"endTime":1018.185,"body":"calendars look like but I thought that"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1018.185,"endTime":1022.355,"body":"was like a really helpful kind of Hey,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1018.185,"endTime":1022.355,"body":"there's something here where like people"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1022.355,"endTime":1026.105,"body":"are not getting the feedback that they"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1022.355,"endTime":1026.105,"body":"need in a timely manner and digging in"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1026.105,"endTime":1027.445,"body":"and kind of Like trying to figure out."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1027.475,"endTime":1027.765,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1027.765,"endTime":1031.145,"body":"What is the root cause what could"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1027.765,"endTime":1031.145,"body":"we do and do something drastic too?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1031.145,"endTime":1035.71,"body":"because I think in the case of meetings"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1031.145,"endTime":1035.71,"body":"like it's so easy to just like You have"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1035.71,"endTime":1037.82,"body":"a meeting, you've always had a meeting."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1037.88,"endTime":1039.72,"body":"You're like, this seems like a fine thing."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1039.73,"endTime":1039.94,"body":"I don't"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1039.94,"endTime":1040.09,"body":"know."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1040.09,"endTime":1041.31,"body":"I think I get value from it."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1041.32,"endTime":1043.73,"body":"And really forcing you to like,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1041.32,"endTime":1043.73,"body":"take a step back and be like,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1043.8,"endTime":1048.31,"body":"okay, is my life better, different,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1043.8,"endTime":1048.31,"body":"worse, without this meeting?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1048.32,"endTime":1049.27,"body":"Do we need to bring it back?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1049.27,"endTime":1050.39,"body":"Has been super helpful."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1050.758,"endTime":1053.808,"body":"so when, when"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1050.758,"endTime":1053.808,"body":"you're thinking about Adding like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1053.808,"endTime":1058.618,"body":"a new process into a team or to,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1053.808,"endTime":1058.618,"body":"to change an existing process."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1058.638,"endTime":1062.078,"body":"what's your sort of strategy for"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1058.638,"endTime":1062.078,"body":"rolling that out with the team to make"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1062.078,"endTime":1064.758,"body":"sure that, you know, in particular"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1062.078,"endTime":1064.758,"body":"that you have buy in from the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1064.758,"endTime":1066.508,"body":"people that will be impacted by it."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1067.442,"endTime":1067.832,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1067.832,"endTime":1072.442,"body":"I think starting by kind of like"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1067.832,"endTime":1072.442,"body":"figuring out what the process is by"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1072.662,"endTime":1076.412,"body":"trying to work as like collaboratively"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1072.662,"endTime":1076.412,"body":"with the team as possible, like"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1076.412,"endTime":1079.662,"body":"getting as much feedback early on of"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1076.412,"endTime":1079.662,"body":"what's working and what's not working."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1079.662,"endTime":1081.122,"body":"What are the challenges you're facing."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1081.457,"endTime":1085.304,"body":"I think that can be really helpful to"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1081.457,"endTime":1085.304,"body":"make sure that, you're designing a process"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1085.304,"endTime":1088.614,"body":"that, like, is going to work and solve"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1085.304,"endTime":1088.614,"body":"the problem that you need, but also people"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1088.614,"endTime":1090.614,"body":"feeling like they have a say in that."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1090.984,"endTime":1095.737,"body":"we, will sometimes solicit ideas"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1090.984,"endTime":1095.737,"body":"from, the engineering team as a whole."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1095.927,"endTime":1099.41,"body":"Upfront, sometimes it'll be, like,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1095.927,"endTime":1099.41,"body":"digging in, in, like, one on one"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1099.41,"endTime":1102.81,"body":"conversations or team meetings to figure"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1099.41,"endTime":1102.81,"body":"out what are some of the challenges."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1103.292,"endTime":1107.212,"body":"And kind of like using that to"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1103.292,"endTime":1107.212,"body":"figure out, okay, what are we doing?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1107.242,"endTime":1108.942,"body":"And what is the impact supposed to be?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1109.202,"endTime":1113.002,"body":"Communicating that out, being really"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1109.202,"endTime":1113.002,"body":"thorough, uh, in terms of explaining"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1113.002,"endTime":1114.962,"body":"the why behind what we're doing."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1114.982,"endTime":1118.462,"body":"So we just did this for this"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1114.982,"endTime":1118.462,"body":"like new meeting sort of process."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1118.742,"endTime":1121.732,"body":"we did probably, it's probably like a."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1122.087,"endTime":1126.247,"body":"three to four page doc, basically"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1122.087,"endTime":1126.247,"body":"explaining like the goals of what"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1126.247,"endTime":1129.117,"body":"we're trying to do, like how to"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1126.247,"endTime":1129.117,"body":"think about different scenarios,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1129.127,"endTime":1131.137,"body":"how to kind of like test this out."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1131.337,"endTime":1135.767,"body":"and then we also sort of like set a"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1131.337,"endTime":1135.767,"body":"timeframe of a month where we were like,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1135.767,"endTime":1139.207,"body":"okay, let's like try this for a month and"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1135.767,"endTime":1139.207,"body":"then let's like get feedback and check in."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1139.207,"endTime":1142.147,"body":"And like, you don't have to keep doing"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1139.207,"endTime":1142.147,"body":"this forever if it doesn't work, right?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1142.147,"endTime":1143.507,"body":"Like we want to hear your feedback."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1143.507,"endTime":1147.087,"body":"And so kind of like finding those"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1143.507,"endTime":1147.087,"body":"opportunities to make sure that people"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1147.087,"endTime":1150.287,"body":"know, That this is something that's"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1147.087,"endTime":1150.287,"body":"supposed to help them, how it's supposed"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1150.287,"endTime":1154.197,"body":"to help them, or in some cases, maybe"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1150.287,"endTime":1154.197,"body":"it doesn't directly impact them, but"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1154.207,"endTime":1157.257,"body":"it's supposed to help a bunch of other"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1154.207,"endTime":1157.257,"body":"teams, supposed to help customers,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1157.447,"endTime":1160.757,"body":"whoever it might be, explain that"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1157.447,"endTime":1160.757,"body":"why and then make sure that you have"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1160.757,"endTime":1162.207,"body":"those opportunities for feedback."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1162.774,"endTime":1165.054,"body":"I definitely"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1162.774,"endTime":1165.054,"body":"think developers in particular,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1165.104,"endTime":1166.354,"body":"they really want to."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1166.414,"endTime":1173.134,"body":"You know, it's just, uh, and I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1166.414,"endTime":1173.134,"body":"think part of it is, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1173.134,"endTime":1176.694,"body":"developers just tend to be like very"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1173.134,"endTime":1176.694,"body":"opinionated for, for whatever reason."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1176.694,"endTime":1179.284,"body":"There's a, there's a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1176.694,"endTime":1179.284,"body":"reasons I think that go into that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1179.784,"endTime":1183.624,"body":"but yeah, so I think, you know, as long"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1179.784,"endTime":1183.624,"body":"as they're involved in the changes, like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1183.654,"endTime":1185.944,"body":"there really is a great way to get buy in."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1186.404,"endTime":1191.304,"body":"you've already shared one example of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1186.404,"endTime":1191.304,"body":"where blowing up a A process or a group of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1191.304,"endTime":1195.654,"body":"processes might be effective, like telling"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1191.304,"endTime":1195.654,"body":"everyone to just do a meeting reset and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1195.654,"endTime":1197.394,"body":"clear their calendars and start over."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1198.204,"endTime":1201.634,"body":"But how do, how do you weigh"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1198.204,"endTime":1201.634,"body":"changes like that versus something"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1201.634,"endTime":1203.134,"body":"that might be more incremental?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1204.126,"endTime":1206.206,"body":"Yeah, that's"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1204.126,"endTime":1206.206,"body":"a really good question."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1206.226,"endTime":1211.626,"body":"I think depending on you know, maybe"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1206.226,"endTime":1211.626,"body":"how overarching the change needs to be."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1211.626,"endTime":1214.446,"body":"Like, is this something that kind"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1211.626,"endTime":1214.446,"body":"of like everyone needs to be, you"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1214.446,"endTime":1217.546,"body":"know, bought into and thinking"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1214.446,"endTime":1217.546,"body":"about, or is this something that"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1217.546,"endTime":1221.326,"body":"like on a project by project"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1217.546,"endTime":1221.326,"body":"basis, for example, we can try out?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1221.376,"endTime":1225.746,"body":"I think the meeting one, like part of the"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1221.376,"endTime":1225.746,"body":"goal was to like push more communication"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1225.746,"endTime":1228.486,"body":"to like async collaboration and Slack."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1228.486,"endTime":1230.416,"body":"And so if everyone's not"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1228.486,"endTime":1230.416,"body":"doing that, it's like."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1231.666,"endTime":1234.556,"body":"so that kind of needed to be like,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1231.666,"endTime":1234.556,"body":"okay, this needs to be a reset"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1234.566,"endTime":1236.196,"body":"and this needs to be overarching."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1236.506,"endTime":1239.436,"body":"there's other things we've done,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1236.506,"endTime":1239.436,"body":"like rolling out the project brief."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1239.436,"endTime":1242.026,"body":"We did that about maybe"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1239.436,"endTime":1242.026,"body":"six to nine months ago."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1242.126,"endTime":1245.216,"body":"and the reason we rolled that"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1242.126,"endTime":1245.216,"body":"out is that we found that."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1245.466,"endTime":1249.266,"body":"we'd get sort of like to like halfway"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1245.466,"endTime":1249.266,"body":"through a SPAC or something and"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1249.266,"endTime":1252.796,"body":"people would be like unsure like"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1249.266,"endTime":1252.796,"body":"what we were trying to solve for."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1253.059,"endTime":1254.839,"body":"who are the types of customers?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1254.849,"endTime":1255.909,"body":"what are their pain points?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1256.189,"endTime":1259.439,"body":"even if we had a PRD that maybe"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1256.189,"endTime":1259.439,"body":"went through some of that, I think"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1259.449,"endTime":1263.699,"body":"not having kind of like that check"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1259.449,"endTime":1263.699,"body":"in on alignment, was, was causing"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1263.699,"endTime":1265.149,"body":"some kind of like disconnect there."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1265.159,"endTime":1268.419,"body":"People not quite feeling like"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1265.159,"endTime":1268.419,"body":"they knew like the why behind"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1268.419,"endTime":1269.379,"body":"what they were building."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1269.396,"endTime":1271.086,"body":"and so we rolled that"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1269.396,"endTime":1271.086,"body":"out kind of gradually."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1271.086,"endTime":1275.546,"body":"We're like, Hey, try this project brief,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1271.086,"endTime":1275.546,"body":"if you're working on something and,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1275.78,"endTime":1280.22,"body":"you feel like you need to get multiple"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1275.78,"endTime":1280.22,"body":"people sort of like aligned on it,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1280.22,"endTime":1284.4,"body":"it's maybe, a little bit of like a, a"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1280.22,"endTime":1284.4,"body":"bigger, newer thing that we're tackling."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1284.4,"endTime":1287.07,"body":"It's not like a sort of"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1284.4,"endTime":1287.07,"body":"small incremental feature."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1287.38,"endTime":1291.54,"body":"and we've kind of like gradually,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1287.38,"endTime":1291.54,"body":"just sort of adopted doing that."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1291.759,"endTime":1294.239,"body":"and we've continued to"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1291.759,"endTime":1294.239,"body":"find opportunities where I."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1294.624,"endTime":1297.204,"body":"We look back in a retro and we're like,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1294.624,"endTime":1297.204,"body":"Hey, that would have been helpful."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1297.204,"endTime":1301.314,"body":"And just like hearing that over and over"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1297.204,"endTime":1301.314,"body":"again, we've sort of like, established"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1301.314,"endTime":1306.234,"body":"that as a more sort of expectation where"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1301.314,"endTime":1306.234,"body":"if you're not doing it, that should be"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1306.264,"endTime":1307.984,"body":"the decision versus you shouldn't opt in."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1307.984,"endTime":1309.294,"body":"You should opt out basically."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1309.564,"endTime":1312.474,"body":"and so I think that's been one that"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1309.564,"endTime":1312.474,"body":"kind of like, we tested the waters on,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1312.524,"endTime":1316.914,"body":"we waited to see if it was valuable and"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1312.524,"endTime":1316.914,"body":"like, if people like were drawn to it"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1316.914,"endTime":1318.994,"body":"and that ended up being how things went."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1319.94,"endTime":1322.63,"body":"how important in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1319.94,"endTime":1322.63,"body":"all of this is like standardizing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1322.63,"endTime":1326.68,"body":"behaviors as well, you know, so if"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1322.63,"endTime":1326.68,"body":"you're asking someone to, to do like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1326.68,"endTime":1330.892,"body":"a, a more detailed design document,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1326.68,"endTime":1330.892,"body":"One developer may have a very different"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1330.892,"endTime":1332.592,"body":"approach to it versus another one."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1332.592,"endTime":1335.452,"body":"And expectations can vary"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1332.592,"endTime":1335.452,"body":"from person to person."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1335.452,"endTime":1338.312,"body":"So like, how do you go about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1335.452,"endTime":1338.312,"body":"like just making sure that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1338.312,"endTime":1341.422,"body":"people have like consistent"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1338.312,"endTime":1341.422,"body":"behaviors around stuff like that?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1342.518,"endTime":1342.958,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1342.968,"endTime":1346.848,"body":"So I think it starts from"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1342.968,"endTime":1346.848,"body":"figuring out like when that's"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1346.848,"endTime":1348.918,"body":"necessary versus not necessary."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1348.948,"endTime":1353.008,"body":"What we've decided is that that"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1348.948,"endTime":1353.008,"body":"is necessary for this sort of"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1353.098,"endTime":1356.688,"body":"quarterly planning process,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1353.098,"endTime":1356.688,"body":"the spec phase, the PRD phase."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1357.038,"endTime":1362.398,"body":"we have One other sort of like consistent"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1357.038,"endTime":1362.398,"body":"checkpoint, which is we do Friday updates"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1362.398,"endTime":1366.258,"body":"where people just like talk about what"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1362.398,"endTime":1366.258,"body":"they've been working on, on the project,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1366.258,"endTime":1371.468,"body":"how things are going, uh, and they post"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1366.258,"endTime":1371.468,"body":"those in, their projects we run in Linear"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1371.708,"endTime":1375.378,"body":"that pipes out to Slack so everyone can"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1371.708,"endTime":1375.378,"body":"see what other teams are working on,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1375.638,"endTime":1378.671,"body":"helps like engineering just like have"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1375.638,"endTime":1378.671,"body":"a sense of like what other engineering"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1378.671,"endTime":1380.561,"body":"teams are working on and, and whatnot."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1380.883,"endTime":1384.826,"body":"And it's up to the project lead to kind"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1380.883,"endTime":1384.826,"body":"of like own that, which we felt like"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1384.826,"endTime":1388.023,"body":"was a really important piece of having"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1384.826,"endTime":1388.023,"body":"ownership over kind of like how your"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1388.023,"endTime":1392.743,"body":"project is going and sharing that out"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1388.023,"endTime":1392.743,"body":"and a lot of times people are interested"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1392.743,"endTime":1397.053,"body":"in kind of like the progress, dev"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1392.743,"endTime":1397.053,"body":"success wants to know and like, They"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1397.053,"endTime":1401.313,"body":"can open it up to beta, for example,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1397.053,"endTime":1401.313,"body":"for, for some customers and whatnot."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1401.583,"endTime":1404.803,"body":"But then everything else in between,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1401.583,"endTime":1404.803,"body":"we've said, we actually don't care"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1404.813,"endTime":1408.783,"body":"exactly how you run this, like trying"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1404.813,"endTime":1408.783,"body":"to have sort of like consistency in"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1408.783,"endTime":1412.553,"body":"terms of how engineers break down a"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1408.783,"endTime":1412.553,"body":"project into their linear tickets."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1413.148,"endTime":1416.868,"body":"how detailed those linear tickets are,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1413.148,"endTime":1416.868,"body":"like, it matters in that you need to"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1416.878,"endTime":1420.481,"body":"be able to, like, work collaboratively"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1416.878,"endTime":1420.481,"body":"with the other people on the project and"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1420.641,"endTime":1424.741,"body":"work within sort of like how your team"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1420.641,"endTime":1424.741,"body":"operates, but, from my vantage point, I"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1424.741,"endTime":1428.541,"body":"don't really care how you do that, some"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1424.741,"endTime":1428.541,"body":"teams, super detailed and, have more"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1428.541,"endTime":1430.456,"body":"of a sort of formulaic way of doing it."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1430.716,"endTime":1434.656,"body":"Others are kind of like, let's just break"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1430.716,"endTime":1434.656,"body":"this down, and however makes sense for,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1434.716,"endTime":1436.336,"body":"you know, the two of us on this project."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1436.366,"endTime":1439.266,"body":"And, as long as that's working,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1436.366,"endTime":1439.266,"body":"that's like totally fine."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1439.536,"endTime":1443.706,"body":"so I think in those cases, we're kind"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1439.536,"endTime":1443.706,"body":"of like, up to you, figure it out."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1443.866,"endTime":1447.346,"body":"For something like the spec, where we"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1443.866,"endTime":1447.346,"body":"do think there's some important things"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1447.346,"endTime":1451.066,"body":"to be thinking through, we have a pretty"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1447.346,"endTime":1451.066,"body":"detailed template, so that you don't"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1451.066,"endTime":1454.386,"body":"have to like, think of all those things"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1451.066,"endTime":1454.386,"body":"every time you're writing a spec either."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1454.596,"endTime":1457.616,"body":"you can kind of go through the template,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1454.596,"endTime":1457.616,"body":"and like, there's stuff about, you know,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1457.861,"endTime":1461.191,"body":"Are there any, monitoring and alerting"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1457.861,"endTime":1461.191,"body":"things you need to be thinking about?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1461.221,"endTime":1464.321,"body":"Are there, any sort of, like,"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1461.221,"endTime":1464.321,"body":"customer comms that need to happen?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1464.321,"endTime":1467.501,"body":"All these little things that it'd be"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1464.321,"endTime":1467.501,"body":"a lot of effort to probably, have to"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1467.501,"endTime":1469.431,"body":"come up with for every single project."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1469.651,"endTime":1471.801,"body":"standardizing that actually"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1469.651,"endTime":1471.801,"body":"makes that a lot easier."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1472.785,"endTime":1473.205,"body":"Awesome."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1473.355,"endTime":1476.472,"body":"Well, I hope there's been a lot"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1473.355,"endTime":1476.472,"body":"of really valuable information for"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1476.472,"endTime":1479.622,"body":"our audience here in, in how to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1476.472,"endTime":1479.622,"body":"set up like effective engineering."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1480.127,"endTime":1481.487,"body":"And products processes."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1481.827,"endTime":1486.417,"body":"Uh, Julianna, thank you again for coming"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1481.827,"endTime":1486.417,"body":"in and sharing your time with us today."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1486.767,"endTime":1490.157,"body":"Uh, if people want to follow you or"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1486.767,"endTime":1490.157,"body":"learn more about what you're working on,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1490.177,"endTime":1491.607,"body":"where's the best place for them to go?"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1492.641,"endTime":1495.771,"body":"I am on"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1492.641,"endTime":1495.771,"body":"Twitter and LinkedIn."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1495.781,"endTime":1500.821,"body":"my, at is Julianna two N's E LAMB."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1500.981,"endTime":1503.251,"body":"I wish I'd chosen something"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1500.981,"endTime":1503.251,"body":"shorter, but here we are."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1503.251,"endTime":1504.021,"body":"It's very long."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1504.201,"endTime":1506.021,"body":"Julianna Lamb, pretty easy to search."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1506.021,"endTime":1507.631,"body":"It's a, it's a decently unique name."},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1507.911,"endTime":1511.911,"body":"and then Stitch, S T Y T C H dot"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1507.911,"endTime":1511.911,"body":"com, uh, is where you can learn"},{"speaker":"Julianna Lamb","startTime":1511.911,"endTime":1513.141,"body":"more about what we're working on."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1513.61,"endTime":1513.91,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1513.97,"endTime":1514.65,"body":"Well, wonderful."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1514.79,"endTime":1516.01,"body":"Thanks for listening, everyone."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1516.04,"endTime":1517.34,"body":"And we'll see you next week."}]}