{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":7.666,"endTime":10.676,"body":"Hey everyone, I'm"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":7.666,"endTime":10.676,"body":"your host, Ben Lloyd Pearson, and today"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":10.716,"endTime":15.666,"body":"I am delighted to be joined by Ori"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":10.716,"endTime":15.666,"body":"Keren, co founder and CEO at LinearB."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":15.706,"endTime":17.046,"body":"Thanks for joining us today, Ori."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":18.25,"endTime":19.42,"body":"Hi Ben, it's great to be here."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":19.44,"endTime":20.49,"body":"Thanks for having me."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":21.456,"endTime":24.196,"body":"Ori, as always, it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":21.456,"endTime":24.196,"body":"really great to have you on our show."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":24.306,"endTime":28.593,"body":"and Andrew, I want to welcome you to your"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":24.306,"endTime":28.593,"body":"first ever episode of Dev Interrupted."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":28.76,"endTime":29.26,"body":"Thank you, Ben."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":29.26,"endTime":30.58,"body":"I'm really excited to be here."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":30.926,"endTime":33.106,"body":"We've actually"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":30.926,"endTime":33.106,"body":"dedicated some time next week to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":33.106,"endTime":34.586,"body":"introduce yourself to our audience."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":34.586,"endTime":39.606,"body":"So, definitely want everyone to tune"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":34.586,"endTime":39.606,"body":"in next week to wrap up our season with"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":39.606,"endTime":42.616,"body":"us and get to learn about who Andrew"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":39.606,"endTime":42.616,"body":"is and what role he's going to play"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":42.616,"endTime":44.616,"body":"in Dev Interrupted moving forward."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":44.886,"endTime":48.691,"body":"but today I want to focus on what we've"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":44.886,"endTime":48.691,"body":"come here to talk to Ori about, and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":48.691,"endTime":51.851,"body":"that is predictions for the year 2025."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":52.351,"endTime":55.851,"body":"we're rapidly approaching the end of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":52.351,"endTime":55.851,"body":"the year, and, you know, as we reflect"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":55.891,"endTime":59.561,"body":"back on all the things that have"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":55.891,"endTime":59.561,"body":"happened here in 2024, figured this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":59.561,"endTime":62.859,"body":"would be a good time to start thinking"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":59.561,"endTime":62.859,"body":"about what What do you think software"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":62.859,"endTime":65.649,"body":"engineering is going to look like in 2025?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":65.979,"endTime":69.049,"body":"So just at a high level, Ori, like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":65.979,"endTime":69.049,"body":"tell us, what do you think are some"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":69.049,"endTime":73.549,"body":"of the biggest trends that you see"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":69.049,"endTime":73.549,"body":"shaping software engineering in 2025?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":74.393,"endTime":77.127,"body":"Yeah, sure, so I'm"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":74.393,"endTime":77.127,"body":"going to surprise you and start"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":77.157,"endTime":83.383,"body":"with AI, which I think is like the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":77.157,"endTime":83.383,"body":"biggest trend, that everybody's"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":83.383,"endTime":84.743,"body":"trying to wrap their head around."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":84.803,"endTime":86.903,"body":"How, how will it look?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":87.593,"endTime":90.55,"body":"I think in two kind of separate tracks."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":90.56,"endTime":95.905,"body":"There's one, where, uh, You know,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":90.56,"endTime":95.905,"body":"all the IDEs and the place where you"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":95.905,"endTime":100.105,"body":"get assistance, where it's not still"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":95.905,"endTime":100.105,"body":"like agentic, it's not an agent."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":100.495,"endTime":102.995,"body":"I think these technologies will mature."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":103.345,"endTime":107.925,"body":"We can speak later on like who's more"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":103.345,"endTime":107.925,"body":"benefiting from, from them and like has"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":107.925,"endTime":109.315,"body":"a better match like to utilize them."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":109.855,"endTime":114.42,"body":"But, you know, as we spoke to leaders"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":109.855,"endTime":114.42,"body":"this year, It was hard for them still"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":114.42,"endTime":119.25,"body":"to, quantify, if they get productivity"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":114.42,"endTime":119.25,"body":"gain from this, and what is it exactly?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":119.76,"endTime":121.87,"body":"And it seems like it's in early adoption."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":121.87,"endTime":128.2,"body":"I predict that 2025, these technologies"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":121.87,"endTime":128.2,"body":"will mature and will become more,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":128.333,"endTime":131.413,"body":"ingrained into, like, the day to"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":128.333,"endTime":131.413,"body":"day of, a lot of the developers."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":131.513,"endTime":135.293,"body":"By the way, I think mainly,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":131.513,"endTime":135.293,"body":"junior developers, but not only."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":135.943,"endTime":140.653,"body":"And then you have the other side of all"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":135.943,"endTime":140.653,"body":"the agentic AI and AI agents that, can pop"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":140.653,"endTime":144.897,"body":"in and take JIRA ticket and issue a pull"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":140.653,"endTime":144.897,"body":"request based on JIRA ticket and all that."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":145.457,"endTime":148.197,"body":"I think this, it's almost"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":145.457,"endTime":148.197,"body":"like in, phase before."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":148.967,"endTime":152.147,"body":"This will be experimentation"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":148.967,"endTime":152.147,"body":"year for these type of things."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":152.427,"endTime":157.427,"body":"There's a lot of like obstacles still like"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":152.427,"endTime":157.427,"body":"to overcome in order to embed this thing."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":157.427,"endTime":161.15,"body":"So my prediction is that it's gonna"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":157.427,"endTime":161.15,"body":"be an interesting year with AI"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":161.15,"endTime":166.167,"body":"agents in SDLC, but it's still be"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":161.15,"endTime":166.167,"body":"more of experimentation this year."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":166.803,"endTime":168.503,"body":"Yeah, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":166.803,"endTime":168.503,"body":"honestly, I don't think we can get"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":168.513,"endTime":172.193,"body":"through an episode anymore without"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":168.513,"endTime":172.193,"body":"talking about AI because I mean, it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":172.193,"endTime":176.729,"body":"truly is like dramatically changing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":172.193,"endTime":176.729,"body":"everything we know about how you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":176.729,"endTime":180.009,"body":"know, and it's not just software"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":176.729,"endTime":180.009,"body":"developers that are feeling this impact."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":180.009,"endTime":183.609,"body":"I feel like it's, it's all people"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":180.009,"endTime":183.609,"body":"who do, informational work."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":183.639,"endTime":185.579,"body":"You know, we're all"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":183.639,"endTime":185.579,"body":"being impacted by this."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":185.899,"endTime":189.419,"body":"It's just like software developers seem"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":185.899,"endTime":189.419,"body":"to be one of the first big waves that it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":189.449,"endTime":191.369,"body":"really becoming mainstream and taking off."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":192.174,"endTime":195.994,"body":"that's probably going to have"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":192.174,"endTime":195.994,"body":"a big impact on engineering"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":196.004,"endTime":197.834,"body":"organizations in this next year."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":198.264,"endTime":200.681,"body":"do you think today is when they're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":198.264,"endTime":200.681,"body":"going to start seeing like those"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":200.681,"endTime":203.631,"body":"huge impacts, or do you still think"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":200.681,"endTime":203.631,"body":"there are other tools out there"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":203.691,"endTime":207.571,"body":"that engineering teams, should be"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":203.691,"endTime":207.571,"body":"looking to adopt over the next year?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":208.32,"endTime":211.19,"body":"You're asking if there"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":208.32,"endTime":211.19,"body":"are more, like, technologies and"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":211.2,"endTime":214.367,"body":"more trends that will be, like,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":211.2,"endTime":214.367,"body":"impactful in 2025, or is it still"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":214.787,"endTime":215.987,"body":"Let's talk specifically about AI."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":216.269,"endTime":217.369,"body":"like what"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":216.269,"endTime":217.369,"body":"tools are going to have the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":217.369,"endTime":219.039,"body":"biggest impact over the next year?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":219.039,"endTime":222.769,"body":"Is it AI or is it going to be AI's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":219.039,"endTime":222.769,"body":"impact on the other tools they use?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":222.779,"endTime":225.929,"body":"Or are there still other tools out there"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":222.779,"endTime":225.929,"body":"that we should be thinking about so that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":225.929,"endTime":227.829,"body":"we're not completely focused on this one?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":228.697,"endTime":231.607,"body":"there's other things that are"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":228.697,"endTime":231.607,"body":"going to happen, other predictions that I"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":231.607,"endTime":236.397,"body":"have, like, you know, in other areas, but"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":231.607,"endTime":236.397,"body":"just to put AI, like, to bed for a second."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":236.447,"endTime":241.137,"body":"I think it's about how you integrate"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":236.447,"endTime":241.137,"body":"this thing into your existing tool chain."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":241.717,"endTime":245.397,"body":"Everybody talks about, hey, what it"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":241.717,"endTime":245.397,"body":"will replace, what it won't replace."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":245.397,"endTime":247.957,"body":"I think, it will still take"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":245.397,"endTime":247.957,"body":"time to understand how do"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":247.957,"endTime":249.597,"body":"you orchestrate all of this?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":249.607,"endTime":251.047,"body":"How do you embed these technologies?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":251.057,"endTime":253.587,"body":"When do you apply the human resource?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":253.607,"endTime":257.747,"body":"When are you, Letting, like,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":253.607,"endTime":257.747,"body":"agents go and do their thing."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":258.157,"endTime":260.77,"body":"so, in terms of, like,  affecting,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":258.157,"endTime":260.77,"body":"the tool chain, I think it's"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":261.08,"endTime":263.8,"body":"more about how you combine and"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":261.08,"endTime":263.8,"body":"how they live side by side."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":264.68,"endTime":267.91,"body":"some other interesting things I think"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":264.68,"endTime":267.91,"body":"are going to happen in, you know, in"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":268.18,"endTime":273.082,"body":"2025 or some other trends that are"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":268.18,"endTime":273.082,"body":"relevant like, well, I'm not going to"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":273.082,"endTime":277.782,"body":"surprise anybody, but cybersecurity"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":273.082,"endTime":277.782,"body":"is still going to be something huge."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":278.342,"endTime":283.502,"body":"I think you can see it from the macro"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":278.342,"endTime":283.502,"body":"level, like the world is shaking"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":283.502,"endTime":286.102,"body":"from, any angle that you look at it."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":286.112,"endTime":291.602,"body":"So it just raises more cyber threats"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":286.112,"endTime":291.602,"body":"and, cybersecurity definitely,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":291.602,"endTime":294.632,"body":"going to still play a major"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":291.602,"endTime":294.632,"body":"role in everything companies do."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":295.312,"endTime":296.262,"body":"the two that I'm."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":296.772,"endTime":300.852,"body":"I'm really excited about our developer"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":296.772,"endTime":300.852,"body":"productivity and developer experience and"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":301.412,"endTime":305.092,"body":"what do we do in these areas and but I"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":301.412,"endTime":305.092,"body":"don't know like I'll let you lead and when"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":305.092,"endTime":306.592,"body":"do you want to talk about these topics?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":307.698,"endTime":309.098,"body":"Yeah, those"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":307.698,"endTime":309.098,"body":"are definitely some topics"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":309.108,"endTime":310.728,"body":"that we want to dive into."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":310.968,"endTime":314.367,"body":"and I love the cyber security example,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":310.968,"endTime":314.367,"body":"because, when I was, getting into the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":314.367,"endTime":319.097,"body":"profession, I remember, ScriptKitties used"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":314.367,"endTime":319.097,"body":"to be like a term that was used almost"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":319.097,"endTime":323.607,"body":"in a derogatory way to people that would"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":319.097,"endTime":323.607,"body":"like copy scripts off the internet and use"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":323.607,"endTime":326.237,"body":"them to maliciously attack organizations."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":326.237,"endTime":331.377,"body":"But now, I mean, you could theoretically"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":326.237,"endTime":331.377,"body":"have like AIs That teach you how"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":331.447,"endTime":333.587,"body":"to, to build this stuff, you know?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":333.937,"endTime":337.757,"body":"kind of does illustrate, I think pretty"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":333.937,"endTime":337.757,"body":"well, the impact that, that these tools"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":337.757,"endTime":340.067,"body":"are going to have, like across the space."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":340.837,"endTime":343.207,"body":"how do you think all of this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":340.837,"endTime":343.207,"body":"is going to impact the role"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":343.237,"endTime":346.177,"body":"of software engineer in 2025?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":346.207,"endTime":348.907,"body":"So I think, you know, historically"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":346.207,"endTime":348.907,"body":"you think about a software engineer."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":348.907,"endTime":349.877,"body":"There's somebody who."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":350.317,"endTime":354.677,"body":"Is responsible for building things"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":350.317,"endTime":354.677,"body":"and coming up with novel and creative"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":354.917,"endTime":357.257,"body":"solutions to very concrete examples."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":357.267,"endTime":358.537,"body":"how was that going to change?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":358.587,"endTime":360.827,"body":"as generative AI, changes the ecosystem."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":361.613,"endTime":364.109,"body":"it's really interesting"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":361.613,"endTime":364.109,"body":"because, I remember when I was"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":364.109,"endTime":369.563,"body":"like, young developer, there's"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":364.109,"endTime":369.563,"body":"this, spark of ideas that you have"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":369.573,"endTime":371.453,"body":"that is sometimes coming top down."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":371.543,"endTime":374.973,"body":"Hey, I have an idea and I'm going to"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":371.543,"endTime":374.973,"body":"work on it and I'm going to implement it."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":375.337,"endTime":378.43,"body":"start somewhere, you write"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":375.337,"endTime":378.43,"body":"something and then ideas."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":378.67,"endTime":383.21,"body":"You know, come to your head as"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":378.67,"endTime":383.21,"body":"creative ideas as you, oh, I build"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":383.21,"endTime":386.51,"body":"this, that probably means I can build"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":383.21,"endTime":386.51,"body":"something that does this thing and"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":386.51,"endTime":388.29,"body":"I can build an entire application."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":388.933,"endTime":394.056,"body":"I have concerns that, you know, how we'd"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":388.933,"endTime":394.056,"body":"like, um, when iPhones were introduced"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":394.056,"endTime":397.116,"body":"and we saved all our contacts, we"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":394.056,"endTime":397.116,"body":"just forgot all the phone numbers"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":397.326,"endTime":401.126,"body":"and the navigation systems that were"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":397.326,"endTime":401.126,"body":"introduced and then a lot of people"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":401.146,"endTime":404.286,"body":"just can't navigate if they don't have"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":401.146,"endTime":404.286,"body":"like, Google Maps or Waze or something."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":404.757,"endTime":409.497,"body":"I think it's very important for"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":404.757,"endTime":409.497,"body":"developers to, not be fully dependent"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":410.317,"endTime":412.017,"body":"on, these codices, et cetera."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":412.057,"endTime":415.177,"body":"They're very important to increase"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":412.057,"endTime":415.177,"body":"the productivity, but people"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":415.427,"endTime":417.877,"body":"still should learn languages."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":418.217,"endTime":422.147,"body":"So this is, true and entire potential,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":418.217,"endTime":422.147,"body":"so we don't lose this big, big"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":422.217,"endTime":424.387,"body":"creativity spark that we have."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":424.388,"endTime":428.347,"body":"So this is like a first comment that"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":424.388,"endTime":428.347,"body":"I have, like, uh, regarding the roles."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":428.347,"endTime":433.227,"body":"I think it's more maybe on leaders or, the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":428.347,"endTime":433.227,"body":"industry to think how do we preserve this"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":433.517,"endTime":437.357,"body":"creativity that's, again, sometimes it's"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":433.517,"endTime":437.357,"body":"a fire that lit from, like, bottom up."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":437.827,"endTime":441.531,"body":"but when I think about the roles"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":437.827,"endTime":441.531,"body":"of, like, developers and how the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":441.531,"endTime":445.121,"body":"roles of developers will change, I"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":441.531,"endTime":445.121,"body":"kind of, like, divide it into two."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":445.121,"endTime":451.174,"body":"I think, junior developers that will"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":445.121,"endTime":451.174,"body":"know, how to utilize this, like, you"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":451.184,"endTime":455.724,"body":"know, IDE boosters, whether you use"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":451.184,"endTime":455.724,"body":"Copilot, Cursor, whatever you use,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":455.734,"endTime":457.514,"body":"like, there's gonna be a gap if."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":458.249,"endTime":464.539,"body":"You know how to use it, it will increase"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":458.249,"endTime":464.539,"body":"your productivity dramatically, and"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":464.539,"endTime":466.749,"body":"if you don't know how to use it,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":464.539,"endTime":466.749,"body":"you're just going to stay behind."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":467.209,"endTime":470.269,"body":"That's kind of what I think about,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":467.209,"endTime":470.269,"body":"you know, people who are starting,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":470.269,"endTime":474.119,"body":"you know, the first, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":470.269,"endTime":474.119,"body":"two, three years in development."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":474.949,"endTime":479.796,"body":"I think the senior developers are"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":474.949,"endTime":479.796,"body":"very interesting because these folks,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":480.096,"endTime":485.28,"body":"if they are able to, leverage the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":480.096,"endTime":485.28,"body":"entire potential that, AI has to offer"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":485.28,"endTime":492.01,"body":"here, they could become small teams"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":485.28,"endTime":492.01,"body":"because they could say something like,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":492.01,"endTime":498.36,"body":"Okay, I'm going to deploy my energy"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":492.01,"endTime":498.36,"body":"on only on these specific reviews."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":498.36,"endTime":501.755,"body":"I'm going to have one agent that"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":498.36,"endTime":501.755,"body":"does like, Basic code reviews."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":502.175,"endTime":505.515,"body":"I'm going to have one that just"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":502.175,"endTime":505.515,"body":"sits and look for I don't know"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":505.515,"endTime":508.745,"body":"what's wrong with my developer"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":505.515,"endTime":508.745,"body":"development pipeline What's broken?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":508.745,"endTime":512.585,"body":"Where do I have maybe flaky"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":508.745,"endTime":512.585,"body":"tests that I can come in and fix?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":512.585,"endTime":513.955,"body":"Where do I have long build times?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":514.442,"endTime":519.248,"body":"and people that can leverage this"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":514.442,"endTime":519.248,"body":"technology can become like almost like"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":519.248,"endTime":525.333,"body":"full teams with a lot of potential so"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":519.248,"endTime":525.333,"body":"Again, I started and I said it's still"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":525.333,"endTime":528.823,"body":"going to take time because I think these"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":525.333,"endTime":528.823,"body":"technologies are in experimentation."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":529.213,"endTime":533.073,"body":"but that's, the direction that I"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":529.213,"endTime":533.073,"body":"think like, uh, the industry will go,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":533.535,"endTime":536.799,"body":"you're highlighting"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":533.535,"endTime":536.799,"body":"a really prevalent thing that we've"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":536.799,"endTime":540.379,"body":"seen a lot in the difference between"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":536.799,"endTime":540.379,"body":"like how junior developers versus senior"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":540.379,"endTime":542.399,"body":"developers are leveraging these tools."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":542.789,"endTime":546.039,"body":"You know, you think about like a junior"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":542.789,"endTime":546.039,"body":"developer, they may see efficiency"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":546.039,"endTime":550.239,"body":"gains from like, adding endpoints"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":546.039,"endTime":550.239,"body":"to like a standardized API, right?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":550.239,"endTime":553.379,"body":"it's something that's repeatable and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":550.239,"endTime":553.379,"body":"just takes like a little bit of for"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":553.379,"endTime":557.339,"body":"lack of a better term, intelligence to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":553.379,"endTime":557.339,"body":"figure out how to replicate it versus"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":557.349,"endTime":560.749,"body":"like a senior engineer, like they"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":557.349,"endTime":560.749,"body":"seem to benefit more when you have"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":561.104,"endTime":565.554,"body":"The ability to like ask, have like a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":561.104,"endTime":565.554,"body":"conversational interface into a complex"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":565.554,"endTime":570.164,"body":"code base because then they can, decipher"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":565.554,"endTime":570.164,"body":"things that are maybe outside of their"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":570.164,"endTime":572.934,"body":"expertise a lot more rapidly, you know?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":573.674,"endTime":573.934,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":573.934,"endTime":577.714,"body":"So, so far we've, we've covered topics"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":573.934,"endTime":577.714,"body":"that I know are top of mind for a lot"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":577.714,"endTime":581.984,"body":"of engineering leaders, a lot of people"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":577.714,"endTime":581.984,"body":"that work in software, things like how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":581.984,"endTime":586.214,"body":"AI will impact their work and how it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":581.984,"endTime":586.214,"body":"could change their role and cybersecurity"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":586.524,"endTime":590.534,"body":"is a topic that we're going to continue"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":586.524,"endTime":590.534,"body":"talking more about, but I'm curious,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":590.784,"endTime":595.584,"body":"what is maybe a challenge that you think"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":590.784,"endTime":595.584,"body":"engineering leaders are underestimating"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":595.604,"endTime":598.204,"body":"or not noticing going into next year?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":598.869,"endTime":600.799,"body":"the first one is"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":598.869,"endTime":600.799,"body":"maybe what I spoke about."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":600.809,"endTime":608.559,"body":"How do you maintain like this creativity"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":600.809,"endTime":608.559,"body":"spark and ability to, Build innovative"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":608.589,"endTime":610.319,"body":"products and innovative ideas."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":610.319,"endTime":614.912,"body":"Again, sometimes they come top down, but a"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":610.319,"endTime":614.912,"body":"lot of the times, like the best companies"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":614.912,"endTime":618.652,"body":"in the world were started by developers,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":614.912,"endTime":618.652,"body":"started with the ideas that people set"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":618.652,"endTime":620.492,"body":"and like teach stuff with their hands."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":620.492,"endTime":623.922,"body":"And then the ideas like"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":620.492,"endTime":623.922,"body":"propagate from there."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":623.922,"endTime":627.002,"body":"So I think people need to,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":623.922,"endTime":627.002,"body":"leaders need to maintain it."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":627.002,"endTime":631.492,"body":"I think there's two other aspects"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":627.002,"endTime":631.492,"body":"of, A small trend that I see"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":631.492,"endTime":634.842,"body":"that these, there's converges of"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":631.492,"endTime":634.842,"body":"technologies and they're becoming"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":634.842,"endTime":638.032,"body":"more homogeneous, if it makes sense."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":638.612,"endTime":643.412,"body":"And then in the sides, you gotta"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":638.612,"endTime":643.412,"body":"maintain, like, diverse, like, skill set."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":644.122,"endTime":648.582,"body":"there's languages that people paying less"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":644.122,"endTime":648.582,"body":"attention and all of a sudden they're"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":648.592,"endTime":650.481,"body":"saying, things are ramping up again."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":650.481,"endTime":655.291,"body":"It's not always easy, like, to find"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":650.481,"endTime":655.291,"body":"your next job, but there are languages"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":655.351,"endTime":659.811,"body":"that, I know that people are looking,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":655.351,"endTime":659.811,"body":"and it's hard to find, like, talent"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":659.811,"endTime":663.641,"body":"there, so I think leaders need to pay"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":659.811,"endTime":663.641,"body":"attention that they still have, like, a"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":663.641,"endTime":666.948,"body":"well diverse, skills in their teams, etc."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":667.368,"endTime":670.038,"body":"The next thing is, like, humans."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":670.368,"endTime":671.968,"body":"Don't forget you're working with people."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":672.448,"endTime":677.399,"body":"so easy to forget like this framework"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":672.448,"endTime":677.399,"body":"when I was an engineering leader and I"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":677.399,"endTime":681.161,"body":"spoke to my managers and say like all"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":677.399,"endTime":681.161,"body":"those things like, people process product,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":681.271,"endTime":685.841,"body":"and people it's like, we're working"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":681.271,"endTime":685.841,"body":"with people, you got to pay attention"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":685.841,"endTime":687.941,"body":"that they're in a risk of a burnout."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":688.371,"endTime":689.991,"body":"what are you asking them to do?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":690.401,"endTime":692.751,"body":"they're feeling threatened"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":690.401,"endTime":692.751,"body":"right now, by the way, by"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":692.751,"endTime":694.581,"body":"technology, there's a resistance."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":695.196,"endTime":699.226,"body":"so if this role, by the way, I"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":695.196,"endTime":699.226,"body":"think, uh, engineering leaders, the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":699.326,"endTime":701.116,"body":"toughest role that exists out there."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":701.116,"endTime":702.616,"body":"I was an engineering leader."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":703.116,"endTime":707.616,"body":"I want to say that being an engineering"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":703.116,"endTime":707.616,"body":"there is harder than, Being a CEO, still"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":708.596,"endTime":712.906,"body":"think about it if it's still right every"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":708.596,"endTime":712.906,"body":"now and then, but it is a very hard role."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":713.216,"endTime":716.929,"body":"So I think those are like the things"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":713.216,"endTime":716.929,"body":"that leaders have to pay attention to."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":718.05,"endTime":721.46,"body":"we've been hearing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":718.05,"endTime":721.46,"body":"things about like, we have a round"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":721.46,"endTime":724.57,"body":"of layoffs that happened at a lot"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":721.46,"endTime":724.57,"body":"of organizations early this year."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":724.58,"endTime":728.49,"body":"There's been a return to office"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":724.58,"endTime":728.49,"body":"mandates like all over the place."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":728.51,"endTime":729.44,"body":"There's, a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":729.44,"endTime":732.1,"body":"general sense, I think In the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":729.44,"endTime":732.1,"body":"engineering space that it's hard"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":732.1,"endTime":736.18,"body":"to know where, professional growth,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":732.1,"endTime":736.18,"body":"like how how does that happen?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":736.59,"endTime":739.86,"body":"You know, so it really does feel like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":736.59,"endTime":739.86,"body":"there's a lot of things that are."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":740.1,"endTime":743.42,"body":"putting like a downward pressure on DevEx."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":743.77,"endTime":746.89,"body":"and I think that leads into like really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":743.77,"endTime":746.89,"body":"the core of what we wanted to ask you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":746.89,"endTime":751.37,"body":"about today, and that's, you know, really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":746.89,"endTime":751.37,"body":"developer experience and how it connects"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":751.38,"endTime":755.26,"body":"to overall developer productivity, which"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":751.38,"endTime":755.26,"body":"I know you, you have some issues with that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":755.26,"endTime":756.93,"body":"phrase that we'll get into a little bit."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":757.37,"endTime":763.45,"body":"but in terms of DevEx, so what are some"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":757.37,"endTime":763.45,"body":"emerging tools or practices that you're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":763.45,"endTime":767.78,"body":"seeing out there in the engineering"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":763.45,"endTime":767.78,"body":"space that, that gets you excited?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":769.154,"endTime":771.234,"body":"the term that I"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":769.154,"endTime":771.234,"body":"have a challenge is developer"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":771.234,"endTime":775.684,"body":"productivity and we'll get to it"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":771.234,"endTime":775.684,"body":"later, hopefully, but developer"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":775.684,"endTime":776.934,"body":"experience is really interesting."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":776.934,"endTime":779.521,"body":"I think it's kind of in a,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":776.934,"endTime":779.521,"body":"it's rich, like, Like this"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":779.541,"endTime":783.811,"body":"interesting crossroad right now,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":779.541,"endTime":783.811,"body":"because, I think two challenges."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":783.821,"endTime":788.616,"body":"First of all, it has like, um,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":783.821,"endTime":788.616,"body":"passive part of what do you measure?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":788.906,"endTime":790.366,"body":"It's a lot about what do you measure?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":790.761,"endTime":795.391,"body":"And also there's even arguments on how do"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":790.761,"endTime":795.391,"body":"you measure, first of all, I think it's"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":795.391,"endTime":799.94,"body":"time for developer experience to move"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":795.391,"endTime":799.94,"body":"from, in the, how do you measure, and"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":799.94,"endTime":804.6,"body":"then we'll talk about ActiveParty, how"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":799.94,"endTime":804.6,"body":"do you measure to move from, just relying"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":804.6,"endTime":810.938,"body":"on these like, almost semi academic"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":804.6,"endTime":810.938,"body":"surveys, and to, uh, get them to the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":810.938,"endTime":816.158,"body":"next level where it's a combination of"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":810.938,"endTime":816.158,"body":"measuring qualitative and quantitative"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":816.438,"endTime":822.958,"body":"things because And in qualitative, I"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":816.438,"endTime":822.958,"body":"think it has to be much more embedded"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":822.958,"endTime":824.918,"body":"into the day to day of developers."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":825.348,"endTime":829.228,"body":"Again, it's really hard, I remember"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":825.348,"endTime":829.228,"body":"myself as a developer, to sit and like"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":829.918,"endTime":834.168,"body":"answer like this, again, almost semi"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":829.918,"endTime":834.168,"body":"academic thing that asks me now questions."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":834.688,"endTime":838.258,"body":"But hey, ask me one second"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":834.688,"endTime":838.258,"body":"after I just completed my task"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":838.268,"endTime":840.248,"body":"about what was my problem, etc."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":840.558,"endTime":842.148,"body":"And you'll get a lot of insight."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":842.838,"endTime":846.998,"body":"so I think developer experience has"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":842.838,"endTime":846.998,"body":"to solve this measure problem and to"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":847.058,"endTime":851.458,"body":"get to an understanding that you gotta"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":847.058,"endTime":851.458,"body":"measure these qualitative things, but"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":851.458,"endTime":853.458,"body":"combine it with quantitative things."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":853.778,"endTime":855.428,"body":"There are things you should be measuring."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":856.398,"endTime":857.878,"body":"You should be measuring your build times."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":858.748,"endTime":862.348,"body":"You should be measuring your stability"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":858.748,"endTime":862.348,"body":"of your CI and how much, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":862.368,"endTime":866.848,"body":"deterministic it is, like, the most The"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":862.368,"endTime":866.848,"body":"most irritating thing as a developer"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":866.848,"endTime":871.078,"body":"is like you run a test, it fails, you"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":866.848,"endTime":871.078,"body":"run it, it fails, you run it again with"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":871.078,"endTime":872.528,"body":"the same condition and it succeeds."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":873.108,"endTime":876.178,"body":"Now you know, okay, next time"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":873.108,"endTime":876.178,"body":"you won't trust your, test suite."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":876.178,"endTime":880.901,"body":"So, fixing those type of things,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":876.178,"endTime":880.901,"body":"measuring how much you have done, test"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":880.901,"endTime":887.021,"body":"environments, um, adoption of like,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":880.901,"endTime":887.021,"body":"AI tools and, and the impact of them."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":887.651,"endTime":891.101,"body":"So again, I, I, I was starting"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":887.651,"endTime":891.101,"body":"with the measure part."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":891.101,"endTime":895.448,"body":"I think, we got to jump to the next"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":891.101,"endTime":895.448,"body":"level where you combine, qual and quant."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":896.558,"endTime":899.798,"body":"And then I think the, the biggest"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":896.558,"endTime":899.798,"body":"challenge and the biggest and the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":899.798,"endTime":903.608,"body":"biggest potential of like innovation"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":899.798,"endTime":903.608,"body":"and, and things like the developing"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":903.608,"endTime":908.078,"body":"developer experience is okay, now that"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":903.608,"endTime":908.078,"body":"we got to some consensus on what we"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":908.078,"endTime":913.468,"body":"should be measuring and how there's a"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":908.078,"endTime":913.468,"body":"huge opportunity to fix these things."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":914.268,"endTime":917.428,"body":"and there's, almost a thirst,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":914.268,"endTime":917.428,"body":"like, to platforms that, you"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":917.428,"endTime":919.048,"body":"know, fix these things for me."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":919.351,"endTime":921.001,"body":"and it's not that complex."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":921.011,"endTime":923.471,"body":"I think, all the problems, all the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":921.011,"endTime":923.471,"body":"challenges, all the things that we"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":923.471,"endTime":928.646,"body":"just mentioned, like, again, if I"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":923.471,"endTime":928.646,"body":"see, If the build time is too long,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":928.946,"endTime":934.846,"body":"we can, again, deploy very interesting"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":928.946,"endTime":934.846,"body":"technologies now, like to shorten them."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":935.456,"endTime":940.306,"body":"Um, if my tests are not stable, we can"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":935.456,"endTime":940.306,"body":"deploy agents like to fix these bugs."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":940.306,"endTime":944.186,"body":"So, I think like, um,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":940.306,"endTime":944.186,"body":"What, what excites me?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":944.56,"endTime":948.33,"body":"I think there are good frameworks"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":944.56,"endTime":948.33,"body":"inside the developer experience."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":948.34,"endTime":953.53,"body":"There is the SCI, the SCI space, software"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":948.34,"endTime":953.53,"body":"engineering intelligence, there's IDPs,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":953.54,"endTime":958.46,"body":"there's surveys, there's all these"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":953.54,"endTime":958.46,"body":"avenues that you can get the understanding"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":958.5,"endTime":960.61,"body":"about the developer experience."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":961.306,"endTime":964.856,"body":"We believe, and I believe, In"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":961.306,"endTime":964.856,"body":"not just showing you where the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":964.856,"endTime":968.936,"body":"problems, giving you tools to"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":964.856,"endTime":968.936,"body":"actually go and solve these problems."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":968.936,"endTime":972.706,"body":"and I think that's like the, the leap"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":968.936,"endTime":972.706,"body":"that the, the developer experience"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":972.706,"endTime":974.056,"body":"movement will probably make this year."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":975.361,"endTime":978.241,"body":"at the core of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":975.361,"endTime":978.241,"body":"a lot of this problem is a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":978.241,"endTime":982.521,"body":"engineering organizations have this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":978.241,"endTime":982.521,"body":"constant struggle to like justify"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":982.521,"endTime":985.191,"body":"investing in developer experience."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":985.231,"endTime":987.861,"body":"You know, you've got this business"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":985.231,"endTime":987.861,"body":"that's always asking to like produce"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":987.861,"endTime":992.956,"body":"new features and help us close deals and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":987.861,"endTime":992.956,"body":"all that stuff, but you know, developers"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":992.956,"endTime":994.616,"body":"want to make their lives easier."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":995.056,"endTime":998.739,"body":"And, you know, I think some organizations"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":995.056,"endTime":998.739,"body":"are starting to get pretty good at"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":998.739,"endTime":1003.869,"body":"articulating, why we need to push back"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":998.739,"endTime":1003.869,"body":"against business priorities sometimes"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1004.159,"endTime":1005.939,"body":"to invest in developer experience."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1005.979,"endTime":1009.179,"body":"and I think this segues nicely into,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1005.979,"endTime":1009.179,"body":"into a question that you have, Andrew,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1009.559,"endTime":1013.219,"body":"about an issue that we're, we're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1009.559,"endTime":1013.219,"body":"starting to see relatively frequently."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1014.136,"endTime":1017.996,"body":"we hear a lot, when we"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1014.136,"endTime":1017.996,"body":"talk with folks about developer burnout"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1017.996,"endTime":1021.796,"body":"and the experience that they have within"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1017.996,"endTime":1021.796,"body":"their platforms, within working every"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1021.796,"endTime":1023.896,"body":"day, creating the software they do."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1024.246,"endTime":1028.641,"body":"And, something we hear consistently"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1024.246,"endTime":1028.641,"body":"is, That it's more about, we're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1028.641,"endTime":1031.821,"body":"wondering, you know, is it about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1028.641,"endTime":1031.821,"body":"like the workload or is it about the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1031.821,"endTime":1034.181,"body":"way the developer's time is spent?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1034.191,"endTime":1039.131,"body":"And oftentimes you, you hear anecdotes"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1034.191,"endTime":1039.131,"body":"about, particularly frustrating things"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1039.131,"endTime":1042.921,"body":"for them that are specific and maybe"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1039.131,"endTime":1042.921,"body":"that you're referring to are solvable."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1043.221,"endTime":1047.221,"body":"And so how do you think leaders"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1043.221,"endTime":1047.221,"body":"can address, that imbalance"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1047.231,"endTime":1048.401,"body":"for that experience for them?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1049.375,"endTime":1052.145,"body":"I think you're"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1049.375,"endTime":1052.145,"body":"touching a good point, like,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1052.145,"endTime":1053.285,"body":"There are people all the time."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1053.345,"endTime":1057.145,"body":"Again, it's this triangle of like,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1053.345,"endTime":1057.145,"body":"how do I make sure that I have"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1057.155,"endTime":1059.795,"body":"the right people and I keep them"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1057.155,"endTime":1059.795,"body":"happy and I keep them productive?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1059.795,"endTime":1060.305,"body":"How do I,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1060.655,"endTime":1063.145,"body":"have the right processes in"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1060.655,"endTime":1063.145,"body":"place and how do I make sure like"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1063.145,"endTime":1065.475,"body":"I'm creating the right product?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1065.485,"endTime":1067.995,"body":"That's like I think the,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1065.485,"endTime":1067.995,"body":"for engineering leaders."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1067.995,"endTime":1070.239,"body":"comes to Burnout, a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1067.995,"endTime":1070.239,"body":"times it will be like kind of"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1070.239,"endTime":1073.139,"body":"like together, unfortunately."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1073.139,"endTime":1075.059,"body":"Like somebody will say,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1073.139,"endTime":1075.059,"body":"Hey, I'm like burning out."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1075.469,"endTime":1079.079,"body":"And probably, probably"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1075.469,"endTime":1079.079,"body":"they're working too much."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1079.099,"endTime":1083.829,"body":"And probably my, the reasons that"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1079.099,"endTime":1083.829,"body":"are working too much is because, uh,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1083.849,"endTime":1088.309,"body":"executing simple tasks, is not easy"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1083.849,"endTime":1088.309,"body":"for them because they're waiting"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1088.319,"endTime":1090.409,"body":"for an environment to come up."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1090.729,"endTime":1094.049,"body":"Or the waiting for the CI to complete"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1090.729,"endTime":1094.049,"body":"and then after one hour it failed and"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1094.049,"endTime":1095.859,"body":"they're like, oh, I need to wait again"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1096.57,"endTime":1097.57,"body":"we've"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1096.57,"endTime":1097.57,"body":"all, we've all been there."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1098.129,"endTime":1098.429,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1098.429,"endTime":1102.625,"body":"and so it's almost like, there's"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1098.429,"endTime":1102.625,"body":"a strong connection between those,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1102.625,"endTime":1105.515,"body":"unfortunately, that comes together"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1102.625,"endTime":1105.515,"body":"because you asked if it's like more"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1105.515,"endTime":1107.545,"body":"the time spent or the workload."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1107.935,"endTime":1113.215,"body":"Unfortunately, um, it comes"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1107.935,"endTime":1113.215,"body":"together and then people and it's"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1113.215,"endTime":1116.345,"body":"like a bad snowball effect, right?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1116.465,"endTime":1118.425,"body":"Because we talked about."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1118.824,"endTime":1122.704,"body":"before like companies need to"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1118.824,"endTime":1122.704,"body":"invest more in developer experience."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1122.704,"endTime":1128.104,"body":"It's hard for them sometimes to see"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1122.704,"endTime":1128.104,"body":"that it will bring, better productivity."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1128.617,"endTime":1132.937,"body":"so to your question, I always think"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1128.617,"endTime":1132.937,"body":"it's a combination or it's a combination"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1133.147,"endTime":1136.417,"body":"of the both, like, you have committed"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1133.147,"endTime":1136.417,"body":"people, they want to complete their tasks."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1136.792,"endTime":1138.602,"body":"But it's taking very much."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1138.632,"endTime":1141.162,"body":"Then they're working, they're"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1138.632,"endTime":1141.162,"body":"just compensating with it on"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1141.172,"endTime":1142.882,"body":"it with like a lot of hours."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1143.292,"endTime":1147.614,"body":"and that's like a vicious"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1143.292,"endTime":1147.614,"body":"cycle that they're in."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1151.931,"endTime":1154.821,"body":"Pardon the interruption, but did"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1151.931,"endTime":1154.821,"body":"you know tomorrow's the big day?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1155.341,"endTime":1158.801,"body":"On December 11th, Dev Interrupted"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1155.341,"endTime":1158.801,"body":"is taking over The Melody in San"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1158.801,"endTime":1163.081,"body":"Francisco, an evening crafted by us"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1158.801,"endTime":1163.081,"body":"for engineering leaders just like you."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1163.621,"endTime":1169.561,"body":"We're hosting top minds at CircleCI,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1163.621,"endTime":1169.561,"body":"MongoDB, Syngenta, and LinearB as they"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1169.561,"endTime":1174.431,"body":"tackle the challenges keeping teams up"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1169.561,"endTime":1174.431,"body":"at night, quite literally, scaling and"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1174.431,"endTime":1176.321,"body":"driving impact at the enterprise level."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1177.121,"endTime":1179.601,"body":"Check out the registration"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1177.121,"endTime":1179.601,"body":"link in the show notes and grab"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1179.601,"endTime":1180.661,"body":"your spot before they're gone!"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1181.341,"endTime":1184.191,"body":"We'll see you tomorrow,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1181.341,"endTime":1184.191,"body":"December 11th, at The Melody."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1187.556,"endTime":1191.366,"body":"before we get into"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1187.556,"endTime":1191.366,"body":"our central topic on productivity, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1191.456,"endTime":1196.726,"body":"want to ask you about the concept of,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1191.456,"endTime":1196.726,"body":"balancing developer freedoms with more"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1196.726,"endTime":1201.766,"body":"of a standardization and, and compliance"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1196.726,"endTime":1201.766,"body":"sort of posture, because I think this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1201.776,"endTime":1204.916,"body":"also plays a big role in developer"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1201.776,"endTime":1204.916,"body":"experience, you know, cause you can think"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1204.916,"endTime":1208.566,"body":"about like, let's just use generative"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1204.916,"endTime":1208.566,"body":"AI as a, as a good example of this."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1209.006,"endTime":1212.326,"body":"organizations who are providing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1209.006,"endTime":1212.326,"body":"more freedom to developers."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1212.326,"endTime":1212.356,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1212.491,"endTime":1216.101,"body":"Maybe seeing more experimentation"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1212.491,"endTime":1216.101,"body":"and new use cases emerging."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1216.411,"endTime":1219.021,"body":"However, the organizations who"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1216.411,"endTime":1219.021,"body":"actually approach it in a much more"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1219.021,"endTime":1224.248,"body":"structured and, and standardized like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1219.021,"endTime":1224.248,"body":"rollout approach, are actually like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1224.288,"endTime":1228.638,"body":"leveraging bigger benefits from it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1224.288,"endTime":1228.638,"body":"because everyone sort of understands."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1228.906,"endTime":1233.586,"body":"Specific to their organization, like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1228.906,"endTime":1233.586,"body":"how generative AI can impact it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1234.076,"endTime":1237.736,"body":"you know, when we think about like this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1234.076,"endTime":1237.736,"body":"balance of freedom versus standardization,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1237.746,"endTime":1242.686,"body":"like how do you think companies should be"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1237.746,"endTime":1242.686,"body":"like focused on that over the next year?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1243.33,"endTime":1246.86,"body":"I think companies need to"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1243.33,"endTime":1246.86,"body":"define their philosophy, first of all,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1246.86,"endTime":1250.41,"body":"like, uh, like think about it, dedicate"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1246.86,"endTime":1250.41,"body":"time to thinking about it, come up"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1250.42,"endTime":1254.04,"body":"with a strategy and your philosophy"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1250.42,"endTime":1254.04,"body":"and the things that you believe in."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1254.853,"endTime":1257.878,"body":"when I was a young manager, I"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1254.853,"endTime":1257.878,"body":"always like, I always wanted"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1257.878,"endTime":1259.753,"body":"to like think about how to."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1260.063,"endTime":1263.213,"body":"You know, after you do the first"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1260.063,"endTime":1263.213,"body":"mistake and you fix a problem for"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1264.063,"endTime":1267.343,"body":"your developers instead of letting"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1264.063,"endTime":1267.343,"body":"them, like, learn on their own."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1268.283,"endTime":1271.843,"body":"It's the same with raising"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1268.283,"endTime":1271.843,"body":"kids, rather than fall."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1272.013,"endTime":1275.253,"body":"So, uh, you gotta choose"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1272.013,"endTime":1275.253,"body":"where you, focus on."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1275.523,"endTime":1280.723,"body":"So I think one of the recommendations"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1275.523,"endTime":1280.723,"body":"I have, I think we touched on it, but,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1281.103,"endTime":1285.643,"body":"all these changes will bring a lot"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1281.103,"endTime":1285.643,"body":"of, like, compliance requirements."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1285.643,"endTime":1285.823,"body":"Thanks."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1286.788,"endTime":1290.688,"body":"like to do the analogy to like"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1286.788,"endTime":1290.688,"body":"autonomous cars, maybe the technology"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1290.688,"endTime":1293.868,"body":"there, but there's a lot of like,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1290.688,"endTime":1293.868,"body":"regulations that are not solved."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1294.268,"endTime":1299.018,"body":"Here where it's like software, I"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1294.268,"endTime":1299.018,"body":"think the technology will come too"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1299.018,"endTime":1302.248,"body":"fast and you'll have to have some"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1299.018,"endTime":1302.248,"body":"orchestration and compliance around."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1302.248,"endTime":1304.128,"body":"Why do I allow and why do I don't allow?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1304.821,"endTime":1309.381,"body":"And then companies have to have"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1304.821,"endTime":1309.381,"body":"like a strategy and a philosophy on."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1309.676,"endTime":1314.096,"body":"Okay, in these areas, it's okay"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1309.676,"endTime":1314.096,"body":"that we use different technologies"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1314.096,"endTime":1316.436,"body":"and we try different things."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1316.856,"endTime":1320.356,"body":"but I don't know when things go"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1316.856,"endTime":1320.356,"body":"through the development pipeline."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1320.386,"endTime":1324.506,"body":"At the end of the day, we gotta"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1320.386,"endTime":1324.506,"body":"meet some compliance requirements."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1324.506,"endTime":1327.849,"body":"We gotta go through SOC 2,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1324.506,"endTime":1327.849,"body":"whatever like, our processes."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1328.386,"endTime":1331.646,"body":"Then it's okay to have more"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1328.386,"endTime":1331.646,"body":"uniformity in those areas."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1331.656,"endTime":1333.816,"body":"Like these are the checks"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1331.656,"endTime":1333.816,"body":"that are being done."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1333.816,"endTime":1337.326,"body":"And this is technology that we're"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1333.816,"endTime":1337.326,"body":"using to, then I think it, creates a"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1337.326,"endTime":1340.986,"body":"good balance where like when things"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1337.326,"endTime":1340.986,"body":"are moving through the pipeline"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1340.986,"endTime":1345.156,"body":"in CI, CD, et cetera, it's okay"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1340.986,"endTime":1345.156,"body":"to have standardization and rules."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1345.616,"endTime":1348.648,"body":"And there are some languages"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1345.616,"endTime":1348.648,"body":"that even let you run, write"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1348.648,"endTime":1350.401,"body":"rules and program your pipeline."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1350.401,"endTime":1358.631,"body":"We know some of them, uh, some, uh, great"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1350.401,"endTime":1358.631,"body":"products that do Over the IDEs and, you"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1358.631,"endTime":1364.828,"body":"know, while I'm building my code, et"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1358.631,"endTime":1364.828,"body":"cetera, I would still allow like for, um,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1365.018,"endTime":1370.271,"body":"more freedom, because again, it has less"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1365.018,"endTime":1370.271,"body":"implications, uh, same goes for like,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1370.271,"endTime":1373.901,"body":"When you deploy stuff and you, you, at"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1370.271,"endTime":1373.901,"body":"the end of the day, you can't, you kind"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1373.901,"endTime":1379.741,"body":"of gotta have uniformity, but choose the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1373.901,"endTime":1379.741,"body":"areas where you allow some innovation and"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1379.741,"endTime":1382.171,"body":"try new, new things where it's less risky."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1383.381,"endTime":1385.361,"body":"Going back to the example"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1383.381,"endTime":1385.361,"body":"of where to follow."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1385.361,"endTime":1390.821,"body":"When I was a young leader, if I saw like"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1385.361,"endTime":1390.821,"body":"a, hey, a big mistake and I gonna impact"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1390.821,"endTime":1393.041,"body":"us dramatically, I wouldn't let it happen."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1393.651,"endTime":1397.161,"body":"This is one out of 10, nine out"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1393.651,"endTime":1397.161,"body":"of 10 let the mistake happen."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1397.161,"endTime":1397.611,"body":"It's fine."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1397.611,"endTime":1399.471,"body":"Like this is how people"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1397.611,"endTime":1399.471,"body":"learn and how they improve."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1400.897,"endTime":1401.087,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1401.087,"endTime":1404.377,"body":"I'm pretty sure my kid's school"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1401.087,"endTime":1404.377,"body":"calls that a natural consequences"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1404.387,"endTime":1406.517,"body":"for living with natural consequences."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1407.312,"endTime":1409.232,"body":"Yeah, it's actually a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1407.312,"endTime":1409.232,"body":"great learning technique."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1410.259,"endTime":1414.069,"body":"let's get into the topic of productivity"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1410.259,"endTime":1414.069,"body":"now or developer productivity or"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1414.069,"endTime":1415.699,"body":"software engineering productivity."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1416.089,"endTime":1419.019,"body":"This is, this is kind of a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1416.089,"endTime":1419.019,"body":"loaded term because, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1419.019,"endTime":1422.379,"body":"I think a lot of organizations"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1419.019,"endTime":1422.379,"body":"realize they need to focus on it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1422.554,"endTime":1426.744,"body":"But it also is a term that kind of feels"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1422.554,"endTime":1426.744,"body":"like you're going to start spying on your"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1426.744,"endTime":1430.034,"body":"developers and potentially firing them"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1426.744,"endTime":1430.034,"body":"if they don't have the right numbers."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1430.534,"endTime":1433.544,"body":"given that, like, what are the big"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1430.534,"endTime":1433.544,"body":"challenges that you think that the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1433.624,"endTime":1439.044,"body":"engineering teams are facing now relative"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1433.624,"endTime":1439.044,"body":"to the concept of developer productivity?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1440.038,"endTime":1443.558,"body":"Yeah, I would start with just"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1440.038,"endTime":1443.558,"body":"adding something again, like to what you"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1443.558,"endTime":1446.924,"body":"said, it's a loaded term because I think"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1443.558,"endTime":1446.924,"body":"I spoke about it before, but it's like,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1447.174,"endTime":1449.034,"body":"I don't like, well, it is what it is."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1449.044,"endTime":1451.094,"body":"This is the term, it's here to stay."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1451.744,"endTime":1454.934,"body":"But if you do an analogy to sales."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1455.394,"endTime":1458.304,"body":"For example, and people"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1455.394,"endTime":1458.304,"body":"use a sales efficiency."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1458.304,"endTime":1462.128,"body":"So two things like, they use"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1458.304,"endTime":1462.128,"body":"the word efficiency and sales."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1462.148,"endTime":1463.648,"body":"It's like the action that you do."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1463.728,"endTime":1466.238,"body":"It's not like, uh, the people who do it."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1466.578,"endTime":1469.098,"body":"So it's how about, how do we"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1466.578,"endTime":1469.098,"body":"improve the process of sales?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1469.668,"endTime":1475.908,"body":"And unfortunately here, not only we didn't"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1469.668,"endTime":1475.908,"body":"choose the action, we choose people."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1476.098,"endTime":1479.858,"body":"And instead of choosing plural, because"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1476.098,"endTime":1479.858,"body":"I think development is team sports."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1480.828,"endTime":1481.728,"body":"You work together."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1481.728,"endTime":1482.308,"body":"Everybody does."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1482.878,"endTime":1485.808,"body":"We choose in this term and I"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1482.878,"endTime":1485.808,"body":"say we like the people chose"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1485.808,"endTime":1487.968,"body":"this term, single developer."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1488.278,"endTime":1490.358,"body":"So it's kind of a loaded term"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1488.278,"endTime":1490.358,"body":"because when you say developer"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1490.358,"endTime":1491.368,"body":"productivity, Oh, what do you mean?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1491.368,"endTime":1496.018,"body":"This is the thing that you measure the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1491.368,"endTime":1496.018,"body":"developers and you stack rank them."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1496.058,"endTime":1496.358,"body":"No."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1496.358,"endTime":1501.128,"body":"So this is why I think people get need"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1496.358,"endTime":1501.128,"body":"to go, uh, see beyond the term, the term"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1501.128,"endTime":1503.008,"body":"developer productivity to mirror presents."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1503.008,"endTime":1506.418,"body":"How do you increase the efficiency"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1503.008,"endTime":1506.418,"body":"of the development process?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1506.418,"endTime":1510.864,"body":"So that's why again, if you could like"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1506.418,"endTime":1510.864,"body":"turn back time and invent a different"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1511.124,"endTime":1514.724,"body":"term, it would be great, but we"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1511.124,"endTime":1514.724,"body":"can't, and it's here to stay with us."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1515.284,"endTime":1520.324,"body":"I think what the theme that I'm seeing in"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1515.284,"endTime":1520.324,"body":"the, in, in developer productivity that is"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1520.324,"endTime":1522.374,"body":"really interesting is all these contrasts."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1522.404,"endTime":1526.994,"body":"I think you spoke about it, like all"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1522.404,"endTime":1526.994,"body":"these, um, on one hand, you have,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1527.064,"endTime":1532.314,"body":"hey, we got to apply AI and because"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1527.064,"endTime":1532.314,"body":"everybody's talking about the big,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1532.324,"endTime":1534.454,"body":"big, big promise that it, it brings."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1534.454,"endTime":1534.484,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1535.574,"endTime":1538.774,"body":"On the other hand, it's like,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1535.574,"endTime":1538.774,"body":"how do we put controls on it?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1538.984,"endTime":1544.304,"body":"And how do we, um, not forget about our"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1538.984,"endTime":1544.304,"body":"people and like apply the human factors?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1544.314,"endTime":1546.504,"body":"That's a big challenge for"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1544.314,"endTime":1546.504,"body":"developer productivity."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1547.474,"endTime":1553.868,"body":"Uh, you talked about you know, these two"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1547.474,"endTime":1553.868,"body":"movements of like, Working hybrid and"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1553.868,"endTime":1558.938,"body":"going back like to work from the office"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1553.868,"endTime":1558.938,"body":"offices still again two big big contrasts"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1558.938,"endTime":1564.743,"body":"and strong uh if the word didn't have"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1558.938,"endTime":1564.743,"body":"enough polarity They're bringing this"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1564.743,"endTime":1567.393,"body":"to, uh, developer productivity as well."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1567.543,"endTime":1569.413,"body":"Oh, five days at the office."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1569.413,"endTime":1570.093,"body":"No, hybrid."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1570.093,"endTime":1574.618,"body":"So and again, like, uh, we talked"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1570.093,"endTime":1574.618,"body":"about, like, uh, your question about"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1574.668,"endTime":1578.378,"body":"uniformity of like, hey, we're using"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1574.668,"endTime":1578.378,"body":"the same tech stack for everybody."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1578.598,"endTime":1579.538,"body":"That's what we do."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1580.153,"endTime":1583.583,"body":"Uh, there's a lot of developer experience"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1580.153,"endTime":1583.583,"body":"team that way we're doing centralized"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1583.613,"endTime":1586.603,"body":"tooling and the purchasing like for"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1583.613,"endTime":1586.603,"body":"the entire organization, et cetera,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1586.777,"endTime":1588.829,"body":"versus like the freedom, to choose."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1589.159,"endTime":1593.159,"body":"Uh, so I think the biggest challenge,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1589.159,"endTime":1593.159,"body":"the theme is this contrast and how you"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1593.159,"endTime":1595.209,"body":"do balance all these, uh, contrasts."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1595.705,"endTime":1598.625,"body":"that's I think the biggest challenge"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1595.705,"endTime":1598.625,"body":"of, developer productivity."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1598.625,"endTime":1603.835,"body":"And, because you have all of that, I"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1598.625,"endTime":1603.835,"body":"think you don't have any other leaders,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1603.835,"endTime":1607.897,"body":"don't have any other choice, but to"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1603.835,"endTime":1607.897,"body":"decide what is important to them."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1609.161,"endTime":1612.721,"body":"measure it, measure it so"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1609.161,"endTime":1612.721,"body":"they can optimize it and"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1612.721,"endTime":1613.991,"body":"they can start improving it."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1614.001,"endTime":1617.531,"body":"Like, I don't have to attack all the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1614.001,"endTime":1617.531,"body":"problems at once, but measure the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1617.541,"endTime":1619.271,"body":"things that are important to you."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1619.641,"endTime":1622.791,"body":"Again, like we said, you find"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1619.641,"endTime":1622.791,"body":"your philosophy, your strategy."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1623.316,"endTime":1625.036,"body":"Where are you in all these contrasts?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1625.446,"endTime":1626.346,"body":"What is your choice?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1626.636,"endTime":1628.426,"body":"Because not choosing is the worst."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1630.176,"endTime":1631.646,"body":"is your approach in all of this?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1632.276,"endTime":1636.289,"body":"Then make sure you're measuring the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1632.276,"endTime":1636.289,"body":"right things to improve productivity."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1636.289,"endTime":1641.049,"body":"And also choose frameworks that not"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1636.289,"endTime":1641.049,"body":"just let you look at them and what you"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1641.049,"endTime":1645.339,"body":"measure, but also give you means to drive"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1641.049,"endTime":1645.339,"body":"improvement with developer productivity."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1645.339,"endTime":1646.639,"body":"I hope it makes sense."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1647.69,"endTime":1651.65,"body":"I really like how you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1647.69,"endTime":1651.65,"body":"framed the discussion as being polarizing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1651.65,"endTime":1655.7,"body":"And oftentimes when you go down the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1651.65,"endTime":1655.7,"body":"list of things that we use to define"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1655.72,"endTime":1659.89,"body":"developer productivity, they're divided"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1655.72,"endTime":1659.89,"body":"into two camps that people find themselves"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1659.89,"endTime":1661.98,"body":"in the whole way down the rubric."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1662.28,"endTime":1667.5,"body":"And you touched earlier on the human"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1662.28,"endTime":1667.5,"body":"factor of working with other people"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1667.5,"endTime":1668.755,"body":"and communicating to each other."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1668.755,"endTime":1671.205,"body":"Do you think that that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1668.755,"endTime":1671.205,"body":"is the real secret sauce"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1671.225,"endTime":1673.365,"body":"here to developer productivity?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1673.375,"endTime":1678.285,"body":"Is it about finding that common ground"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1673.375,"endTime":1678.285,"body":"between these camps and understanding"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1678.295,"endTime":1680.745,"body":"that the shared goals that You have?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1680.745,"endTime":1682.575,"body":"And, and how would You"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1682.605,"endTime":1686.035,"body":"recommend someone in either"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1682.605,"endTime":1686.035,"body":"one of those camps, maybe it's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1686.045,"endTime":1690.785,"body":"someone who's more, IC oriented"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1686.045,"endTime":1690.785,"body":"or someone more, manager oriented."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1691.035,"endTime":1694.672,"body":"How would you, give them advice to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1691.035,"endTime":1694.672,"body":"try to find, a common perspective?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1695.859,"endTime":1698.449,"body":"I think leaders have"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1695.859,"endTime":1698.449,"body":"been living this reality for a long"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1698.499,"endTime":1702.688,"body":"time, like Engineering leaders have"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1698.499,"endTime":1702.688,"body":"seen this, almost parallel universe."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1703.418,"endTime":1706.314,"body":"We call it sometimes the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1703.418,"endTime":1706.314,"body":"dual mandate, for years now."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1706.754,"endTime":1711.824,"body":"You have, like, uh, you turn left and you"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1706.754,"endTime":1711.824,"body":"speak to your engineering organization and"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1711.824,"endTime":1716.94,"body":"it's one language of how do we, I don't"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1711.824,"endTime":1716.94,"body":"know, decrease the time, like, that we"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1716.95,"endTime":1719.08,"body":"deploy to production, deploy more times."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1719.08,"endTime":1721.054,"body":"It's, uh, what do we need to improve?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1721.064,"endTime":1724.254,"body":"Like, how do we improve developer"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1721.064,"endTime":1724.254,"body":"experience, our development pipeline?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1724.264,"endTime":1728.78,"body":"Like, where are we in the cloud, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1724.264,"endTime":1728.78,"body":"cloud native development like Kubernetes"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1728.78,"endTime":1731.72,"body":"adoption, all fascinating topics."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1732.26,"endTime":1737.5,"body":"Then you turn to the other side and you"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1732.26,"endTime":1737.5,"body":"speak to the business and they don't,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1738.46,"endTime":1738.94,"body":"it's like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1738.966,"endTime":1739.676,"body":"have no idea."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1739.726,"endTime":1740.216,"body":"they have no idea"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1740.26,"endTime":1742.47,"body":"they don't need,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1740.26,"endTime":1742.47,"body":"it's like, yeah, any of it is."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1742.48,"endTime":1748.35,"body":"So I think for leaders for a long"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1742.48,"endTime":1748.35,"body":"time, they had to do this trick where."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1749.435,"endTime":1750.745,"body":"Connect the dots trick."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1750.905,"endTime":1756.595,"body":"I always like to say, Hey, put some key"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1750.905,"endTime":1756.595,"body":"metrics, take some key business metrics"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1756.605,"endTime":1758.305,"body":"and just draw a line between them."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1758.315,"endTime":1761.125,"body":"So, uh, the business"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1758.315,"endTime":1761.125,"body":"understand, but it's an art."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1761.195,"endTime":1763.365,"body":"You gotta be great at this."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1763.365,"endTime":1765.762,"body":"So I think, same goes here."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1765.762,"endTime":1770.119,"body":"It's like, at the end of the day, that's"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1765.762,"endTime":1770.119,"body":"the human charm, like, uh, good leaders."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1770.999,"endTime":1772.399,"body":"It doesn't have to be like engineering."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1772.409,"endTime":1774.119,"body":"There's good team leaders."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1774.369,"endTime":1778.669,"body":"Good tech leads, good developers"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1774.369,"endTime":1778.669,"body":"can bridge between like these,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1778.709,"endTime":1782.86,"body":"these can find like the, path of"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1778.709,"endTime":1782.86,"body":"like, what do we take from this?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1782.984,"endTime":1785.742,"body":"even if you look at like, I"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1782.984,"endTime":1785.742,"body":"don't know, a hybrid versus,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1785.852,"endTime":1787.551,"body":"there's a middle ground here."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1787.551,"endTime":1789.931,"body":"Maybe you work two days from office."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1789.931,"endTime":1791.631,"body":"I'm just throwing an idea."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1791.631,"endTime":1793.641,"body":"Um, I think that's the, that's the key."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1794.713,"endTime":1797.793,"body":"another question I had,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1794.713,"endTime":1797.793,"body":"this is related to my own experience,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1797.793,"endTime":1802.233,"body":"you know, I onboarded for a new role"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1797.793,"endTime":1802.233,"body":"recently, and something that was really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1802.233,"endTime":1806.413,"body":"fascinating for me was onboarding and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1802.233,"endTime":1806.413,"body":"kind of like, uh, in the middle of the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1806.433,"endTime":1809.803,"body":"AI transformation of a lot"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1806.433,"endTime":1809.803,"body":"of tools people are using."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1810.142,"endTime":1812.332,"body":"That actually helped expedite"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1810.142,"endTime":1812.332,"body":"a lot of things for me."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1812.372,"endTime":1815.202,"body":"I had almost like a personalized"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1812.372,"endTime":1815.202,"body":"assistant that I could ask questions"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1815.202,"endTime":1818.672,"body":"to for lots of different resources"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1815.202,"endTime":1818.672,"body":"and tools that I was added to."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1818.672,"endTime":1823.192,"body":"It was quick to jump in on context of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1818.672,"endTime":1823.192,"body":"things that was going on around me."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1823.548,"endTime":1828.378,"body":"And I'm wondering now, having gone"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1823.548,"endTime":1828.378,"body":"through that experience and learned"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1828.378,"endTime":1833.293,"body":"at a more Maybe what's some advice"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1828.378,"endTime":1833.293,"body":"that you would give to somebody"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1833.443,"endTime":1837.263,"body":"who's maybe finding themselves in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1833.443,"endTime":1837.263,"body":"like a newly promoted or newly hired"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1837.333,"endTime":1839.283,"body":"like engineering leadership role?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1839.293,"endTime":1841.753,"body":"They're, they're hungry and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1839.293,"endTime":1841.753,"body":"they're excited to go in next year."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1842.023,"endTime":1844.583,"body":"Maybe they're taking over a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1842.023,"endTime":1844.583,"body":"new team or a new project."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1844.833,"endTime":1847.913,"body":"You know, there were opportunities"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1844.833,"endTime":1847.913,"body":"for me to take advantage of new tools."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1848.228,"endTime":1852.418,"body":"What opportunities do you see for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1848.228,"endTime":1852.418,"body":"them to, uh, maybe be, um, you know,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1852.418,"endTime":1854.748,"body":"a better leader going into next year?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1855.86,"endTime":1858.38,"body":"Yeah, for engineering"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1855.86,"endTime":1858.38,"body":"leaders, I'll go back to the things"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1858.38,"endTime":1863.029,"body":"that are, I think, uh, especially"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1858.38,"endTime":1863.029,"body":"Okay, I acknowledge this, dual mandate,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1863.039,"endTime":1866.639,"body":"acknowledge the fact that it's two"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1863.039,"endTime":1866.639,"body":"different languages, master both of them."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1867.286,"endTime":1870.144,"body":"the best leaders that I've seen,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1867.286,"endTime":1870.144,"body":"like, could speak on like an"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1870.154,"endTime":1875.684,"body":"architectural problem and, with"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1870.154,"endTime":1875.684,"body":"the engineers, and get fascinated"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1875.684,"endTime":1877.394,"body":"about it and offer their opinion."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1877.394,"endTime":1880.314,"body":"And by the way, the greatest leaders,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1877.394,"endTime":1880.314,"body":"like also know how to remove themselves,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1880.324,"endTime":1884.054,"body":"like from some of the discussion,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1880.324,"endTime":1884.054,"body":"because, or speak last, because"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1884.054,"endTime":1887.884,"body":"if you come and then your opinion,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1884.054,"endTime":1887.884,"body":"everybody will align with you."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1888.544,"endTime":1894.014,"body":"And on the other hand, you can't, you"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1888.544,"endTime":1894.014,"body":"can't not tie everything that you do"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1894.044,"endTime":1898.484,"body":"like to business objectives, because"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1894.044,"endTime":1898.484,"body":"this is, this is the time, like you"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1898.484,"endTime":1903.81,"body":"can see, like the, demand, like the,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1898.484,"endTime":1903.81,"body":"at the executive table, like to, uh,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1904.01,"endTime":1908.534,"body":"they're asking these questions, um,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1904.01,"endTime":1908.534,"body":"you need to be prepared to answer them."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1908.574,"endTime":1911.264,"body":"How do you allocate your, uh, resources?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1911.274,"endTime":1912.434,"body":"Where do you invest time?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1912.434,"endTime":1913.414,"body":"And why did you choose?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1913.99,"endTime":1915.04,"body":"just don't forget about that."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1915.04,"endTime":1920.177,"body":"That's my, uh, First, suggestion,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1915.04,"endTime":1920.177,"body":"measure the things that you believe in."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1920.654,"endTime":1924.324,"body":"Choose what you measure and, and, and,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1920.654,"endTime":1924.324,"body":"but the things that you believe in."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1924.324,"endTime":1928.654,"body":"And, you know, some people's styles like,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1924.324,"endTime":1928.654,"body":"okay, collaborate with a team and decide."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1928.654,"endTime":1932.924,"body":"Some people say, okay, uh, on some things"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1928.654,"endTime":1932.924,"body":"I am going to collaborate, but here"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1932.924,"endTime":1934.404,"body":"are the top things that I'm measuring."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1934.804,"endTime":1938.214,"body":"I don't think we can go to another year"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1934.804,"endTime":1938.214,"body":"where people or engineering leaders"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1938.224,"endTime":1942.974,"body":"like saying to themselves, yeah, maybe"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1938.224,"endTime":1942.974,"body":"I can get along without, measuring."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1942.984,"endTime":1945.114,"body":"You can't optimize what"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1942.984,"endTime":1945.114,"body":"you're not measuring."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1945.834,"endTime":1948.396,"body":"I have examples where I've seen"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1945.834,"endTime":1948.396,"body":"like, people in the past saying,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1948.54,"endTime":1950.56,"body":"we measured a bunch of things."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1950.66,"endTime":1952.05,"body":"We know where we are now."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1952.66,"endTime":1953.22,"body":"We're good."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1953.606,"endTime":1957.276,"body":"so we're going to put the focus"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1953.606,"endTime":1957.276,"body":"on other things, not measuring."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1958.356,"endTime":1962.656,"body":"I always tell them, can"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1958.356,"endTime":1962.656,"body":"you imagine a VP of sales?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1963.191,"endTime":1966.085,"body":"Coming to a, board meeting or a staff"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1963.191,"endTime":1966.085,"body":"meeting, on Monday and saying'm gonna say,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1967.345,"endTime":1972.465,"body":"Listen, I got this funnel thing going,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1967.345,"endTime":1972.465,"body":"like, I don't need to see the funnel."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1973.765,"endTime":1977.255,"body":"I know, I know where the problems"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1973.765,"endTime":1977.255,"body":"are, we measured it, so I now"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1977.255,"endTime":1978.095,"body":"know where my problems are."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1978.095,"endTime":1981.585,"body":"I'm gonna stop measuring, so I don't, I"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1978.095,"endTime":1981.585,"body":"won't know how many opportunities we have."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1981.585,"endTime":1986.205,"body":"I won't know, like, where do I"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1981.585,"endTime":1986.205,"body":"have bottlenecks in my funnel."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1986.895,"endTime":1989.635,"body":"We need to get to that level"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1986.895,"endTime":1989.635,"body":"where people understand that,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1989.655,"endTime":1991.758,"body":"like, this is uh, basic level."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1992.058,"endTime":1997.322,"body":"I think people need to require more"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1992.058,"endTime":1997.322,"body":"from systems that help them do that."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1997.352,"endTime":2001.382,"body":"Okay, once you help me measure"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1997.352,"endTime":2001.382,"body":"and see the problems, offer me"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2001.382,"endTime":2007.732,"body":"solutions, give me frameworks, give"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2001.382,"endTime":2007.732,"body":"me Languages almost like to to fix"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2007.732,"endTime":2009.412,"body":"my pipeline where I see problems."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2010.202,"endTime":2014.372,"body":"and then I will go like we talked"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2010.202,"endTime":2014.372,"body":"about define your philosophy,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2014.372,"endTime":2015.552,"body":"invest, invest in that."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2015.562,"endTime":2021.962,"body":"Go, go speak to other leaders, to the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2015.562,"endTime":2021.962,"body":"people that report to you, to your peers."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2022.772,"endTime":2025.052,"body":"we're getting close to"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2022.772,"endTime":2025.052,"body":"the end of the year."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2025.587,"endTime":2026.607,"body":". So it's a good time."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2026.607,"endTime":2030.783,"body":"Like prepare a strategy for the, for"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2026.607,"endTime":2030.783,"body":"the year with all the challenges that"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2030.783,"endTime":2034.343,"body":"we spoke about with all this polarity,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2030.783,"endTime":2034.343,"body":"with all this, Hey, you can go, maybe"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2034.343,"endTime":2037.283,"body":"you believe that everybody should come"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2034.343,"endTime":2037.283,"body":"back to the office, have a discussion,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2037.613,"endTime":2039.413,"body":"see what, what the impact will be."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2039.473,"endTime":2042.743,"body":"Uh, if you do that,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2039.473,"endTime":2042.743,"body":"choose your philosophy."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2042.743,"endTime":2045.225,"body":"Go with, your strategy, and."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2045.92,"endTime":2046.46,"body":"Deploy it."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2046.73,"endTime":2049.57,"body":"And then don't forget at the end of"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2046.73,"endTime":2049.57,"body":"the day, it's still this framework"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2049.63,"endTime":2052.58,"body":"of people, process, product."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2052.92,"endTime":2054.68,"body":"So don't forget about the people element."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2054.823,"endTime":2056.393,"body":"I'll keep mentioning it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2057.409,"endTime":2057.869,"body":"Wonderful."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2057.899,"endTime":2063.316,"body":"So you've shared lots of great advice for"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2057.899,"endTime":2063.316,"body":"engineering leaders going into next year."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2063.586,"endTime":2066.466,"body":"I've just got one more question"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2063.586,"endTime":2066.466,"body":"for you before we head out."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2066.549,"endTime":2068.579,"body":"do you have any bold"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2066.549,"endTime":2068.579,"body":"predictions for next year?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2068.629,"endTime":2072.349,"body":"Like things that, that you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2068.629,"endTime":2072.349,"body":"really want to just stand out?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2073.116,"endTime":2073.836,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2073.976,"endTime":2075.306,"body":"Here's what's going to happen."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2075.356,"endTime":2076.436,"body":"And it's scary."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2077.024,"endTime":2080.304,"body":"I predict that productivity"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2077.024,"endTime":2080.304,"body":"will go down next year."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2080.414,"endTime":2081.594,"body":"It will decrease."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2081.705,"endTime":2082.105,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2083.024,"endTime":2086.709,"body":"I think, if you can, again,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2083.024,"endTime":2086.709,"body":"it's, you don't have a single metric."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2086.739,"endTime":2091.079,"body":"You're measuring a bunch of things, but"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2086.739,"endTime":2091.079,"body":"at the end of the day, it will, it will"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2091.089,"endTime":2093.349,"body":"actually, uh, decrease a little bit."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2094.039,"endTime":2094.749,"body":"Why?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2094.779,"endTime":2099.675,"body":"Because in every change that you go"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2094.779,"endTime":2099.675,"body":"through,   We talked about it, like people"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2099.685,"endTime":2101.705,"body":"still experiment here, experiment there."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2102.125,"endTime":2104.455,"body":"There's gonna be a lot"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2102.125,"endTime":2104.455,"body":"still like moving parts."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2105.035,"endTime":2111.045,"body":"And every adoption of a new technology"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2105.035,"endTime":2111.045,"body":"or change, like you first go through this"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2111.075,"endTime":2114.663,"body":"like dip where, should I really do this?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2114.673,"endTime":2116.263,"body":"Like, how does that work?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2116.303,"endTime":2118.423,"body":"Um, you'll still get the resistance."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2118.433,"endTime":2119.863,"body":"There's a lot of resistance, by the way."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2119.863,"endTime":2121.773,"body":"Developers are worried."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2121.883,"endTime":2124.023,"body":"So you still get this resistance."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2124.423,"endTime":2126.273,"body":"people will need to feel"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2124.423,"endTime":2126.273,"body":"comfortable with it."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2126.393,"endTime":2130.67,"body":"So I actually predict it will take"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2126.393,"endTime":2130.67,"body":"sometime and then it will, climb back"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2130.7,"endTime":2132.93,"body":"up and then this change will be amazing."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2133.15,"endTime":2138.343,"body":"Then you'll get this like, uh, 10x promise"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2133.15,"endTime":2138.343,"body":"or, or, or, but it won't happen overnight."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2138.343,"endTime":2141.703,"body":"I don't think next year"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2138.343,"endTime":2141.703,"body":"will be like, uh, great."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2141.703,"endTime":2145.773,"body":"Hey, with the same amount of people, let's"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2141.703,"endTime":2145.773,"body":"say you have 100 developers in, uh, 1,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2145.773,"endTime":2149.283,"body":"000 developers in your organization with"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2145.773,"endTime":2149.283,"body":"the same amount of people you can do."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2150.378,"endTime":2151.088,"body":"It won't happen."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2151.088,"endTime":2152.568,"body":"It maybe even go down a little bit."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2152.578,"endTime":2157.585,"body":"That's my bold prediction before"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2152.578,"endTime":2157.585,"body":"people know how to embrace,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2157.585,"endTime":2160.905,"body":"adopt these technologies, combine"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2157.585,"endTime":2160.905,"body":"like the human factor in them"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2160.905,"endTime":2162.725,"body":"and, and then grow from there."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2162.775,"endTime":2165.685,"body":"Then you'll get this"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2162.775,"endTime":2165.685,"body":"like a productivity gain."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2165.685,"endTime":2169.235,"body":"So yeah, also we need to manage"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2165.685,"endTime":2169.235,"body":"the expectations around that."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2169.632,"endTime":2170.902,"body":"but that's my bold prediction."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2171.795,"endTime":2174.725,"body":"You know, we've asked"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2171.795,"endTime":2174.725,"body":"you a lot of questions today, and I'm"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2174.725,"endTime":2180.035,"body":"wondering, based on our discussion, if you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2174.725,"endTime":2180.035,"body":"had to ask our audience or our listeners"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2180.035,"endTime":2184.425,"body":"one thing about their own engineering"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2180.035,"endTime":2184.425,"body":"practices, what would it be, and why?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2185.292,"endTime":2186.652,"body":"I would ask them one thing."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2187.262,"endTime":2188.482,"body":"Hey, are you data driven?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2189.489,"endTime":2193.349,"body":"Data driven, it doesn't mean, hey,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2189.489,"endTime":2193.349,"body":"do you have the right metrics?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2193.559,"endTime":2199.299,"body":"data driven means like, did you adopt"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2193.559,"endTime":2199.299,"body":"technology that helped you map exactly"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2199.309,"endTime":2204.022,"body":"like we spoke, like how, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2199.309,"endTime":2204.022,"body":"Salesforce and sales are mapping the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2204.032,"endTime":2209.742,"body":"funnel, the pipeline, map your pipeline,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2204.032,"endTime":2209.742,"body":"it will, Pay your dividends as you, as"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2209.742,"endTime":2214.849,"body":"you go forward, because that's where"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2209.742,"endTime":2214.849,"body":"you can press with your eyes, like"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2214.869,"endTime":2218.779,"body":"detect bottlenecks and then deploy"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2214.869,"endTime":2218.779,"body":"AI applications and a lot of advanced"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2218.789,"endTime":2220.569,"body":"things to fix the problems that you see."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2221.149,"endTime":2226.289,"body":"But this is a time for transformation"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2221.149,"endTime":2226.289,"body":"because, People that will be data driven,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2226.709,"endTime":2232.789,"body":"and invest in it, they will harvest the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2226.709,"endTime":2232.789,"body":"fruits of that, like, in the coming years."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2232.799,"endTime":2233.809,"body":"So that's the one question."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2233.809,"endTime":2237.872,"body":"Hey, are you, you become data"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2233.809,"endTime":2237.872,"body":"driven in your R\u0026 D organization?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2238.222,"endTime":2239.472,"body":"I think that's the one question to ask."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2240.618,"endTime":2241.148,"body":"Wonderful."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2241.188,"endTime":2244.278,"body":"Well, thank you so much"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2241.188,"endTime":2244.278,"body":"for joining us today, Ori."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2244.315,"endTime":2247.325,"body":"it's always a pleasure to have your"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2244.315,"endTime":2247.325,"body":"insights to share with our audience."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2247.939,"endTime":2251.66,"body":"Yeah, probably, I got a lot"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2247.939,"endTime":2251.66,"body":"of things wrong, so, because I'm not a"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2251.66,"endTime":2254.18,"body":"prophet, so I'm just using my insight."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2254.24,"endTime":2257.106,"body":"But thanks, it was great, just"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2254.24,"endTime":2257.106,"body":"being here, great questions."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2257.106,"endTime":2257.286,"body":"Thanks."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2257.507,"endTime":2259.087,"body":"that's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2257.507,"endTime":2259.087,"body":"it for today's show."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2259.247,"endTime":2261.987,"body":"thank you to our audience for"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2259.247,"endTime":2261.987,"body":"joining us all the way to the end."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2261.987,"endTime":2266.067,"body":"if you like this show, the best way"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2261.987,"endTime":2266.067,"body":"to support us is to go and rate our"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2266.067,"endTime":2271.435,"body":"podcasts on your platform, whether that's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2266.067,"endTime":2271.435,"body":"Spotify, Apple, anywhere else, if we"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2271.435,"endTime":2274.665,"body":"got a bunch of stuff that you think is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2271.435,"endTime":2274.665,"body":"wrong, go out there and tell us about it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2274.945,"endTime":2278.725,"body":"but more, you can even go out and tell"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2274.945,"endTime":2278.725,"body":"us that on LinkedIn, you can connect"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2278.725,"endTime":2282.195,"body":"with Andrew, Ori, or I on LinkedIn,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2278.725,"endTime":2282.195,"body":"or just join the conversation on"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2282.195,"endTime":2284.095,"body":"the Dev Interrupted LinkedIn page."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2284.415,"endTime":2287.855,"body":"And lastly, if you're looking for more"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2284.415,"endTime":2287.855,"body":"insights from engineering leaders,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2287.885,"endTime":2290.711,"body":"head over to the Dev Interrupted"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2287.885,"endTime":2290.711,"body":"sub stack, where you'll get weekly"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2290.711,"endTime":2294.436,"body":"deep dives into articles and our"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2290.711,"endTime":2294.436,"body":"favorite episodes, just like this one."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2294.696,"endTime":2295.956,"body":"So thank you everyone."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2295.996,"endTime":2296.906,"body":"We'll see you next week."}]}