{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":7.669,"endTime":9.109,"body":"Welcome to Dev Interrupted."},{"startTime":9.449,"endTime":12.349,"body":"I'm your host, Ben Lloyd"},{"startTime":9.449,"endTime":12.349,"body":"Pearson, and joining me today"},{"startTime":12.439,"endTime":14.829,"body":"is Dan Lines, LinearB's COO."},{"startTime":15.769,"endTime":19.589,"body":"Today, we've got a great"},{"startTime":15.769,"endTime":19.589,"body":"conversation with Andrew Boyagi."},{"startTime":19.749,"endTime":22.709,"body":"He's the head of DevOps"},{"startTime":19.749,"endTime":22.709,"body":"Evangelism at Atlassian."},{"startTime":23.209,"endTime":26.499,"body":"And this conversation is actually"},{"startTime":23.209,"endTime":26.499,"body":"the very last conversation that will"},{"startTime":26.499,"endTime":28.769,"body":"feature our host, Conor Bronson."},{"startTime":28.769,"endTime":30.799,"body":"he's since moved on to a new opportunity."},{"startTime":31.059,"endTime":33.845,"body":"you want to learn more about"},{"startTime":31.059,"endTime":33.845,"body":"change and more of the changes"},{"startTime":33.845,"endTime":37.015,"body":"that we have planned for Dev"},{"startTime":33.845,"endTime":37.015,"body":"Interrupted, I encourage you to go."},{"startTime":37.09,"endTime":40.5,"body":"Back to the last season and listen to our"},{"startTime":37.09,"endTime":40.5,"body":"holiday episode where we cover some of"},{"startTime":40.5,"endTime":42.37,"body":"the the changes that are happening here."},{"startTime":42.687,"endTime":46.057,"body":"in a moment, we'll play this"},{"startTime":42.687,"endTime":46.057,"body":"conversation between Conor and Andrew."},{"startTime":46.347,"endTime":49.427,"body":"But first, Dan, I wanted to bring"},{"startTime":46.347,"endTime":49.427,"body":"you in to break down some of"},{"startTime":49.437,"endTime":50.967,"body":"the topics that they discussed."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":51.059,"endTime":54.089,"body":"One of the things"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":51.059,"endTime":54.089,"body":"that Andrew said in his interview"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":54.089,"endTime":57.419,"body":"was that there's this misalignment"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":54.089,"endTime":57.419,"body":"between engineers and their"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":57.419,"endTime":60.059,"body":"managers on how to improve DevEx."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":60.389,"endTime":63.659,"body":"So in all the conversations that you've"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":60.389,"endTime":63.659,"body":"had with engineering leaders out there,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":63.659,"endTime":65.249,"body":"like, do you sense this misalignment?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":66.21,"endTime":68.5,"body":"Actually, that's"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":66.21,"endTime":68.5,"body":"pretty, pretty funny."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":68.63,"endTime":71.76,"body":"I do not sense the misalignment."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":72.27,"endTime":74.81,"body":"But I'll, I'll tell you"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":72.27,"endTime":74.81,"body":"why, and I think I know why."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":75.189,"endTime":81.169,"body":"If you go out and let's say you do a"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":75.189,"endTime":81.169,"body":"survey and you ask a bunch of questions to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":81.779,"endTime":86.499,"body":"many developers and many managers, you're"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":81.779,"endTime":86.499,"body":"going to get a ton of different answers."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":87.308,"endTime":92.768,"body":"the thing is, all they're saying"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":87.308,"endTime":92.768,"body":"is actually the exact same thing,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":92.898,"endTime":96.248,"body":"but from different perspectives,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":92.898,"endTime":96.248,"body":"is the best way that I'll put it."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":96.778,"endTime":101.868,"body":"Now on the flip side, with our customers,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":96.778,"endTime":101.868,"body":"with LinearB, the engineering managers"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":101.868,"endTime":105.698,"body":"and developers that I'm interacting"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":101.868,"endTime":105.698,"body":"with, they're all utilizing data."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":105.893,"endTime":108.399,"body":"They're using, data to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":105.893,"endTime":108.399,"body":"measure productivity and"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":108.399,"endTime":109.949,"body":"then to improve productivity."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":110.589,"endTime":115.909,"body":"And when you utilize data to do so,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":110.589,"endTime":115.909,"body":"it's actually a universal language."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":116.129,"endTime":118.549,"body":"There's no misunderstanding"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":116.129,"endTime":118.549,"body":"or misalignment."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":119.139,"endTime":123.989,"body":"So for example, if you're thinking about"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":119.139,"endTime":123.989,"body":"something like, okay, you know, hey, We"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":123.989,"endTime":127.969,"body":"want to improve our developer experience,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":123.989,"endTime":127.969,"body":"or we want to get more productive."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":128.039,"endTime":131.609,"body":"Actually, managers and"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":128.039,"endTime":131.609,"body":"developers want the same things."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":132.199,"endTime":134.759,"body":"They want to streamline"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":132.199,"endTime":134.759,"body":"their code to production."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":135.609,"endTime":140.959,"body":"They want to ensure that they have the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":135.609,"endTime":140.959,"body":"right investment balance in technical"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":140.969,"endTime":143.059,"body":"debt versus new feature delivery."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":143.919,"endTime":148.689,"body":"They want to deliver their"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":143.919,"endTime":148.689,"body":"projects in new value on time."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":149.534,"endTime":153.464,"body":"And they both want clear expectations"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":149.534,"endTime":153.464,"body":"of what it takes to grow a career."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":153.774,"endTime":155.334,"body":"They actually want the same thing."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":155.924,"endTime":158.954,"body":"Now they might verbally"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":155.924,"endTime":158.954,"body":"express that differently."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":158.954,"endTime":161.284,"body":"That's the trouble you'll"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":158.954,"endTime":161.284,"body":"get with like a survey."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":161.702,"endTime":164.921,"body":"but no, actually like the customers"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":161.702,"endTime":164.921,"body":"that we're working with, since"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":164.921,"endTime":168.181,"body":"we're more, I would say like data"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":164.921,"endTime":168.181,"body":"centric, they're actually pretty"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":168.181,"endTime":169.821,"body":"aligned on what they're looking for."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":170.478,"endTime":172.028,"body":"Yeah, it's, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":170.478,"endTime":172.028,"body":"mean, it's a great way to put it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":172.028,"endTime":175.458,"body":"everyone just wants to build new"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":172.028,"endTime":175.458,"body":"awesome things, but to get there."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":175.813,"endTime":178.693,"body":"You know, you got to make sure that you're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":175.813,"endTime":178.693,"body":"investing into DevEx and to keeping the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":178.693,"endTime":182.233,"body":"lights on and to maintenance because,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":178.693,"endTime":182.233,"body":"you know, that keeps your developers"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":182.233,"endTime":184.813,"body":"happy who in turn build better products,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":185.132,"endTime":189.876,"body":"one thing that really stuck out to me"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":185.132,"endTime":189.876,"body":"was, Andrew mentioned that when Atlassian"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":189.876,"endTime":193.446,"body":"surveyed their developers, they got so"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":189.876,"endTime":193.446,"body":"much feedback that it could take him,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":193.466,"endTime":197.056,"body":"he said like up to like two years to dig"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":193.466,"endTime":197.056,"body":"through it all, which is a little wild."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":197.506,"endTime":200.776,"body":"and he mentioned that a lot of that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":197.506,"endTime":200.776,"body":"data was also, process related."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":201.241,"endTime":205.083,"body":"So how is an engineering manager,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":201.241,"endTime":205.083,"body":"supposed to manage all of this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":205.083,"endTime":206.553,"body":"feedback from their developers?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":207.576,"endTime":210.346,"body":"mean, again, here's the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":207.576,"endTime":210.346,"body":"thing, like, if you're sending out a"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":210.356,"endTime":215.046,"body":"survey, it's a very, like, academic,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":210.356,"endTime":215.046,"body":"let's say, academic questioning of"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":215.046,"endTime":219.866,"body":"what's happening with your personal"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":215.046,"endTime":219.866,"body":"experience, and you go and do that for"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":220.206,"endTime":223.016,"body":"a hundred, It's not even developers."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":223.016,"endTime":224.296,"body":"Let's just say people."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":224.586,"endTime":226.516,"body":"You're gonna get a lot of information."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":226.516,"endTime":230.346,"body":"Yeah, you mentioned that it would take"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":226.516,"endTime":230.346,"body":"them two years to sort through the data"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":230.396,"endTime":236.371,"body":"to find actually what is the real problem"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":230.396,"endTime":236.371,"body":"and what You know, should we do next,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":236.371,"endTime":238.111,"body":"let's say, to improve productivity?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":238.634,"endTime":243.214,"body":"Now, when it comes down to the engineering"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":238.634,"endTime":243.214,"body":"managers, and maybe you start talking"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":243.224,"endTime":247.154,"body":"about things like feedback loops,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":243.224,"endTime":247.154,"body":"there's actually a lot of good feedback"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":247.154,"endTime":251.584,"body":"loops, I think, already built into the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":247.154,"endTime":251.584,"body":"engineering practice and processes."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":251.594,"endTime":253.784,"body":"Like, for example, most teams"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":251.594,"endTime":253.784,"body":"have an iteration retrospective."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":254.934,"endTime":258.744,"body":"You're getting a feedback, Loop every"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":254.934,"endTime":258.744,"body":"two weeks or three weeks maximum."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":259.184,"endTime":263.364,"body":"Most engineering leaders or managers"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":259.184,"endTime":263.364,"body":"have one on ones with their developers."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":263.364,"endTime":265.754,"body":"You know, for us, we usually"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":263.364,"endTime":265.754,"body":"recommend once a week."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":265.754,"endTime":267.754,"body":"I'm getting feedback all the time."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":268.544,"endTime":273.804,"body":"I think the more important question"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":268.544,"endTime":273.804,"body":"is not around managing this insane"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":273.814,"endTime":277.644,"body":"amount of feedback, but more so"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":273.814,"endTime":277.644,"body":"getting everyone onto the same page."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":277.644,"endTime":281.054,"body":"Again, I'm going to be more data"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":277.644,"endTime":281.054,"body":"centric and a data advocate."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":281.364,"endTime":282.914,"body":"Let's look at the data."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":282.974,"endTime":285.554,"body":"Let's see what the data tells"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":282.974,"endTime":285.554,"body":"us about what's going on."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":285.654,"endTime":287.474,"body":"What's causing bottlenecks?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":287.504,"endTime":289.754,"body":"What's causing planning accuracy problems?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":289.784,"endTime":292.904,"body":"What's causing investment"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":289.784,"endTime":292.904,"body":"problems into DevEx?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":293.234,"endTime":295.634,"body":"And let's see, does that"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":293.234,"endTime":295.634,"body":"relate to the feedback?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":295.654,"endTime":299.539,"body":"Most of the time you'll get the answer"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":295.654,"endTime":299.539,"body":"of Okay, yeah, it's actually the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":299.539,"endTime":301.529,"body":"data is describing it really well."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":301.529,"endTime":304.389,"body":"Now it's more so a loop"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":301.529,"endTime":304.389,"body":"on what do we do about it."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":304.869,"endTime":308.744,"body":"I think that's like, on the productivity"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":304.869,"endTime":308.744,"body":"side, at least the customers that"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":308.774,"endTime":313.36,"body":"we're with, you can kind of understand"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":308.774,"endTime":313.36,"body":"in a few minutes after using LinearB,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":313.37,"endTime":316.38,"body":"where the bottlenecks are, the bigger"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":313.37,"endTime":316.38,"body":"question is, okay, what do we do now?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":316.948,"endTime":319.142,"body":"we recommend to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":316.948,"endTime":319.142,"body":"a lot of organizations starting with"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":319.142,"endTime":322.292,"body":"Dora Metrics, you know, and I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":319.142,"endTime":322.292,"body":"that's one of the things I love most"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":322.292,"endTime":325.772,"body":"about it is they have this saying"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":322.292,"endTime":325.772,"body":"like, get better at getting better."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":325.832,"endTime":329.762,"body":"You know, it's more about teams working"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":325.832,"endTime":329.762,"body":"together to get better and being"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":329.762,"endTime":334.182,"body":"empowered to be better together than"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":329.762,"endTime":334.182,"body":"it is about whether or not you have."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":334.539,"endTime":339.535,"body":"enough feedback from your lowest level up"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":334.539,"endTime":339.535,"body":"to the highest level, so, diving a little"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":339.535,"endTime":342.665,"body":"bit deeper into these feedback loops."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":342.869,"endTime":345.769,"body":"So, you know, you think about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":342.869,"endTime":345.769,"body":"feedback loops as a way to, like,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":345.769,"endTime":347.669,"body":"continuously improve environments."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":348.069,"endTime":350.469,"body":"but that can be really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":348.069,"endTime":350.469,"body":"hard to scale, right?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":350.519,"endTime":354.209,"body":"Like, or some organizations"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":350.519,"endTime":354.209,"body":"like Atlassian look at surveys"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":354.369,"endTime":355.749,"body":"as a solution to scale that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":355.749,"endTime":359.919,"body":"But how would you, how would you recommend"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":355.749,"endTime":359.919,"body":"that engineering leaders scale like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":359.939,"endTime":361.409,"body":"these, these types of feedback loops?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":361.885,"endTime":363.705,"body":"You gotta, you gotta use data."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":363.825,"endTime":364.505,"body":"That's the thing."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":364.515,"endTime":367.245,"body":"So you're going to have these"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":364.515,"endTime":367.245,"body":"feedback loops from developers,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":367.295,"endTime":372.385,"body":"each team, each manager, each"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":367.295,"endTime":372.385,"body":"business unit, each organization."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":373.275,"endTime":376.755,"body":"And the only way I believe that"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":373.275,"endTime":376.755,"body":"you can get a clear picture of"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":376.755,"endTime":378.535,"body":"that is be able to see that data."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":378.535,"endTime":381.795,"body":"Again, I'll just go over the ones"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":378.535,"endTime":381.795,"body":"that I think are most important."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":381.805,"endTime":384.965,"body":"You have efficiency, And"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":381.805,"endTime":384.965,"body":"Quality related data."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":384.965,"endTime":387.645,"body":"That's more so what you were"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":384.965,"endTime":387.645,"body":"saying on the Dorametric side."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":388.525,"endTime":393.825,"body":"You have Value delivery data, which a"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":388.525,"endTime":393.825,"body":"lot of people equate to Productivity."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":393.855,"endTime":396.625,"body":"What value am I producing"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":393.855,"endTime":396.625,"body":"for the business?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":396.625,"endTime":399.255,"body":"You can see that within Project Delivery."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":399.665,"endTime":404.075,"body":"You have Resource alignment data,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":399.665,"endTime":404.075,"body":"which is kind of that feedback loop"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":404.075,"endTime":406.255,"body":"of, Hey, we're not getting enough time."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":406.255,"endTime":407.705,"body":"Focus on technical debt."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":408.155,"endTime":411.605,"body":"You should know what percentage"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":408.155,"endTime":411.605,"body":"you're investing into technical"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":411.605,"endTime":414.725,"body":"debt and have an agreement with"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":411.605,"endTime":414.725,"body":"the business on what it should be."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":415.035,"endTime":418.635,"body":"Everyone already knows that you're not"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":415.035,"endTime":418.635,"body":"investing enough into technical debt."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":418.945,"endTime":421.865,"body":"That's been around since like the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":418.945,"endTime":421.865,"body":"beginning of time since I've been a"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":421.865,"endTime":426.305,"body":"developer and developers have been"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":421.865,"endTime":426.305,"body":"voicing that in feedback loops throughout"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":426.305,"endTime":428.045,"body":"surveys or one on ones or whatever."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":428.045,"endTime":429.155,"body":"It doesn't do anything."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":429.615,"endTime":433.595,"body":"The difference is can you actually"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":429.615,"endTime":433.595,"body":"quantify it and then go to the business"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":433.595,"endTime":439.495,"body":"and say, can we make an agreement with"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":433.595,"endTime":439.495,"body":"you to say, At least 17 to 20 percent"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":439.495,"endTime":441.105,"body":"of our time is on technical debt."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":441.515,"endTime":442.495,"body":"That's a good agreement."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":442.745,"endTime":446.215,"body":"And then I would say the last"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":442.745,"endTime":446.215,"body":"thing on the feedback loop, again,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":446.215,"endTime":447.925,"body":"it's on that career development."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":448.665,"endTime":450.205,"body":"Are you looking at data?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":450.245,"endTime":455.065,"body":"Is it very transparent of what it"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":450.245,"endTime":455.065,"body":"takes to grow your career from a junior"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":455.525,"endTime":459.875,"body":"developer to a developer to a senior"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":455.525,"endTime":459.875,"body":"developer to a principal engineer?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":460.675,"endTime":463.955,"body":"And this is the one that actually,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":460.675,"endTime":463.955,"body":"maybe I'll just take a minute to focus"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":463.955,"endTime":467.825,"body":"on a little bit more as it might even"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":463.955,"endTime":467.825,"body":"relate back to developer experience."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":467.825,"endTime":473.315,"body":"If I'm progressing my career in a fair"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":467.825,"endTime":473.315,"body":"way, maybe I'm going to be having a good,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":473.725,"endTime":477.495,"body":"it's one of the main inputs, I think,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":473.725,"endTime":477.495,"body":"to having a good developer experience."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":477.855,"endTime":482.175,"body":"Now, some of the complaints that I've"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":477.855,"endTime":482.175,"body":"gotten from developers at, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":482.445,"endTime":487.295,"body":"many size organizations is there's not"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":482.445,"endTime":487.295,"body":"a clear way for me to understand how"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":487.295,"endTime":493.185,"body":"to progress and developers that are a"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":487.295,"endTime":493.185,"body":"little bit more comfortable or articulate"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":493.235,"endTime":497.93,"body":"in how they can say how productive"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":493.235,"endTime":497.93,"body":"they were, seem to be advancing."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":498.36,"endTime":501.62,"body":"And me as a developer, I'm trying"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":498.36,"endTime":501.62,"body":"to let my works, you know, speak."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":501.62,"endTime":502.89,"body":"Maybe I'm a little more shy."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":503.13,"endTime":506.11,"body":"So when you have like a developer"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":503.13,"endTime":506.11,"body":"coaching program that's data"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":506.11,"endTime":509.86,"body":"centric, again, I think that's"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":506.11,"endTime":509.86,"body":"kind of a, a fair way to do so."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":509.86,"endTime":512.99,"body":"So, I would just say, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":509.86,"endTime":512.99,"body":"there's a lot of different feedback"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":513.02,"endTime":515.92,"body":"loops that are already baked"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":513.02,"endTime":515.92,"body":"into the development process."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":515.92,"endTime":517.1,"body":"We have those today."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":517.1,"endTime":521.34,"body":"It's more so about, can we get on the same"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":517.1,"endTime":521.34,"body":"page about the data to actually improve?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":522.379,"endTime":525.579,"body":"Yeah, I think it, the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":522.379,"endTime":525.579,"body":"way you describe it is a great job at"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":525.589,"endTime":530.239,"body":"drawing it from, you know, high level"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":525.589,"endTime":530.239,"body":"resourcing decisions, like deciding"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":530.319,"endTime":534.669,"body":"what things you strategically want"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":530.319,"endTime":534.669,"body":"to invest in as an organization, and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":534.669,"endTime":537.639,"body":"then saying to your developers then,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":534.669,"endTime":537.639,"body":"you know, we're going to establish"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":537.659,"endTime":541.975,"body":"working agreements around these"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":537.659,"endTime":541.975,"body":"priorities so that they always know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":541.975,"endTime":545.215,"body":"like, whenever they're working on"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":541.975,"endTime":545.215,"body":"something, does it fit within that,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":545.275,"endTime":547.225,"body":"that strategic priority framework that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":547.6,"endTime":548.7,"body":"That you're giving them."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":548.716,"endTime":550.536,"body":"It always has to relate back."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":550.586,"endTime":554.436,"body":"I mean, imagine going to a CEO"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":550.586,"endTime":554.436,"body":"and saying, we did a developer"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":554.436,"endTime":557.836,"body":"survey and the developers say we"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":554.436,"endTime":557.836,"body":"have a technical debt problem."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":559.626,"endTime":561.711,"body":"It's like, dude, I, I already knew that."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":561.801,"endTime":564.241,"body":"We've just, we've been talking"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":561.801,"endTime":564.241,"body":"about that for the last,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":564.621,"endTime":566.191,"body":"last 10 years or eight years."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":566.191,"endTime":568.601,"body":"Like it, that's not new information."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":569.051,"endTime":571.961,"body":"A different way to do it"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":569.051,"endTime":571.961,"body":"is you go to the business."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":571.961,"endTime":576.321,"body":"I'll use the CEO as an example"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":571.961,"endTime":576.321,"body":"and say, Hey, currently we have"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":576.321,"endTime":581.051,"body":"an 8 percent effort, investment"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":576.321,"endTime":581.051,"body":"effort in technical debt."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":581.761,"endTime":588.406,"body":"I would like to move that percentage"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":581.761,"endTime":588.406,"body":"effort to 17 percent and because of that I"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":588.406,"endTime":591.986,"body":"can still give you a 50 percent new value."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":592.476,"endTime":593.226,"body":"Delivery."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":593.316,"endTime":597.416,"body":"But what it's actually going to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":593.316,"endTime":597.416,"body":"do is decrease our change failure"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":597.416,"endTime":599.296,"body":"rate, which is very high right now."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":599.886,"endTime":601.846,"body":"And it's going to make"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":599.886,"endTime":601.846,"body":"our customers happier."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":601.906,"endTime":603.466,"body":"That's a better conversation."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":604.165,"endTime":604.885,"body":"exactly."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":604.985,"endTime":607.715,"body":"to tie this to, to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":604.985,"endTime":607.715,"body":"productivity a little more."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":607.835,"endTime":611.305,"body":"So we've already talked a little bit"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":607.835,"endTime":611.305,"body":"about Dora metrics, and how, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":611.305,"endTime":614.845,"body":"I think one common misstep a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":611.305,"endTime":614.845,"body":"organizations make is they try to use"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":614.845,"endTime":617.215,"body":"Dora metrics to compare across teams."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":617.245,"endTime":620.725,"body":"You know, when it really should be more"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":617.245,"endTime":620.725,"body":"focused on like a team saying, we're gonna"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":620.725,"endTime":622.915,"body":"work together to solve our priorities."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":623.5,"endTime":626.64,"body":"so how do you view something like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":623.5,"endTime":626.64,"body":"DORA metrics fitting into the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":626.64,"endTime":628.02,"body":"overall productivity picture?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":628.02,"endTime":631.21,"body":"Because I, I personally hear"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":628.02,"endTime":631.21,"body":"constantly that DORA doesn't measure"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":631.21,"endTime":633.0,"body":"productivity, which I think is probably"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":633.0,"endTime":633.33,"body":"right."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":633.33,"endTime":634.991,"body":"So here's what I would say."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":634.991,"endTime":639.441,"body":"First of all, with any metric that"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":634.991,"endTime":639.441,"body":"you use, it's probably highly risky"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":639.441,"endTime":641.751,"body":"to compare that on a per team basis."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":642.532,"endTime":648.376,"body":"So, whether it's like, the Dora metrics"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":642.532,"endTime":648.376,"body":"or amount of story points delivered,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":648.416,"endTime":652.466,"body":"anything that you're going to compare"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":648.416,"endTime":652.466,"body":"on a team by team basis, I think there's"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":652.466,"endTime":658.756,"body":"like a lot of nuance and context on a"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":652.466,"endTime":658.756,"body":"per team basis that needs to be applied."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":658.756,"endTime":662.676,"body":"So for us, when we're working with our"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":658.756,"endTime":662.676,"body":"customer community, we don't do that."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":662.881,"endTime":668.871,"body":"Now, for your second question of how"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":662.881,"endTime":668.871,"body":"does it relate to productivity, I"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":668.871,"endTime":674.153,"body":"wouldn't say that Dora metrics are"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":668.871,"endTime":674.153,"body":"an exact equivalent to productivity."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":674.153,"endTime":678.203,"body":"What I will say is that they're"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":674.153,"endTime":678.203,"body":"an input into developer experience"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":678.203,"endTime":679.763,"body":"that help with productivity."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":680.213,"endTime":685.893,"body":"So, for example, having a streamlined"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":680.213,"endTime":685.893,"body":"developer development process where I"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":685.893,"endTime":691.198,"body":"can easily go from coding to deployment"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":685.893,"endTime":691.198,"body":"to production, That's a very, very"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":691.198,"endTime":695.868,"body":"important thing for efficiency and"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":691.198,"endTime":695.868,"body":"efficiency leads to productivity."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":695.868,"endTime":697.478,"body":"It's one of the leading indicators."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":698.008,"endTime":701.618,"body":"At the same time, if I want to be"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":698.008,"endTime":701.618,"body":"highly productive, if I'm looking at"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":701.618,"endTime":706.118,"body":"change failure rate or mean time to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":701.618,"endTime":706.118,"body":"restore, I don't want to be pulled off"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":706.118,"endTime":711.118,"body":"of my value facing work all the time"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":706.118,"endTime":711.118,"body":"because there's an issue in production."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":711.178,"endTime":712.723,"body":"That's what a change failure rate is."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":712.823,"endTime":714.303,"body":"Metric is essentially saying."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":714.753,"endTime":718.753,"body":"So I would say it's an input into"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":714.753,"endTime":718.753,"body":"productivity, and it's certainly if"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":718.753,"endTime":722.053,"body":"you're trying to improve developer"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":718.753,"endTime":722.053,"body":"experience, it's something that you"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":722.053,"endTime":724.143,"body":"want to measure and then improve."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":724.823,"endTime":728.893,"body":"So I guess, like, uh, the last thing I"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":724.823,"endTime":728.893,"body":"would say on the team by team basis, it's"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":728.903,"endTime":733.933,"body":"not where you are, it's where you start"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":728.903,"endTime":733.933,"body":"and you're measuring and baselining."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":733.933,"endTime":736.633,"body":"And now if you even make"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":733.933,"endTime":736.633,"body":"a 5 percent improvement."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":736.838,"endTime":740.801,"body":"Each, six months or each year, your"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":736.838,"endTime":740.801,"body":"developers are going to say, wow, I"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":740.801,"endTime":744.361,"body":"actually do feel that I see that we're"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":740.801,"endTime":744.361,"body":"focused on it and we're getting there."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":744.973,"endTime":745.323,"body":"Awesome."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":745.323,"endTime":749.463,"body":"Well, thanks for sharing all of your great"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":745.323,"endTime":749.463,"body":"insight with our audience today, Dan."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":750.022,"endTime":752.452,"body":"We'll return after the break"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":750.022,"endTime":752.452,"body":"for our conversation with"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":752.462,"endTime":753.952,"body":"Andrew Boyagi from Atlassian."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":757.548,"endTime":761.658,"body":"On January 29th, join LinearB"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":757.548,"endTime":761.658,"body":"in refactoring for a workshop"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":761.658,"endTime":764.708,"body":"on starting and scaling a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":761.658,"endTime":764.708,"body":"software engineering intelligence"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":764.728,"endTime":766.368,"body":"practice for your organization."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":766.998,"endTime":770.508,"body":"With a data driven approach based"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":766.998,"endTime":770.508,"body":"on qualitative survey responses from"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":770.528,"endTime":774.658,"body":"engineering leaders like you and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":770.528,"endTime":774.658,"body":"quantitative metrics from the experts"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":774.658,"endTime":779.408,"body":"at LinearB, this workshop gets down to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":774.658,"endTime":779.408,"body":"brass tacks with actionable examples."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":780.038,"endTime":785.118,"body":"Check the show notes to RSVP your spot"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":780.038,"endTime":785.118,"body":"for January 29th, and we'll see you there."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":787.638,"endTime":788.298,"body":"I'm your host,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":788.298,"endTime":789.398,"body":"Conor Bronsdon, and"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":789.398,"endTime":793.418,"body":"Today I'm thrilled to be joined"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":789.398,"endTime":793.418,"body":"by Andrew Boyagi, Atlassian's"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":793.448,"endTime":794.818,"body":"head of DevOps Evangelism."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":795.178,"endTime":798.088,"body":"We're going to dive deep into the"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":795.178,"endTime":798.088,"body":"current state of developer experience,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":798.118,"endTime":802.268,"body":"explore the challenges software teams"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":798.118,"endTime":802.268,"body":"are facing today, and discuss what"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":802.268,"endTime":805.518,"body":"needs to change for developers to"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":802.268,"endTime":805.518,"body":"thrive in the evolving landscape."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":806.173,"endTime":807.023,"body":"Welcome to the show, Andrew."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":807.028,"endTime":807.498,"body":"Thanks, Conor."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":807.498,"endTime":808.288,"body":"Thanks for having me."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":809.284,"endTime":809.794,"body":"Andrew."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":810.074,"endTime":811.194,"body":"Let's start with a big picture."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":811.554,"endTime":815.334,"body":"Atlassian's State of Developer Experience"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":811.554,"endTime":815.334,"body":"report has highlighted some key challenges"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":815.344,"endTime":816.834,"body":"that software teams are facing today."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":817.254,"endTime":819.194,"body":"Could you walk us through"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":817.254,"endTime":819.194,"body":"the main findings and what"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":819.194,"endTime":819.994,"body":"they mean for the industry?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":820.374,"endTime":821.124,"body":"Sure thing, Conor."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":821.404,"endTime":824.744,"body":"So there are three main findings"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":821.404,"endTime":824.744,"body":"that I want to share with you today."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":825.084,"endTime":828.424,"body":"The first one is that there's a huge"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":825.084,"endTime":828.424,"body":"misalignment between developers and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":828.424,"endTime":832.714,"body":"their leaders when it comes to developer"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":828.424,"endTime":832.714,"body":"experience, and this is highlighted a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":832.714,"endTime":834.334,"body":"few different times through the report."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":834.714,"endTime":839.174,"body":"one of the, one of the key findings is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":834.714,"endTime":839.174,"body":"that, the top issues that are impacting"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":839.174,"endTime":843.514,"body":"developer experience are, engineers"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":839.174,"endTime":843.514,"body":"and their leaders have wide, wildly"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":843.514,"endTime":845.014,"body":"different views on what they are."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":845.424,"endTime":850.744,"body":"so if you ask managers, they say things"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":845.424,"endTime":850.744,"body":"like understaffing, New technology and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":850.754,"endTime":855.824,"body":"build processes are significant impacts"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":850.754,"endTime":855.824,"body":"to their team's developer experience."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":856.234,"endTime":860.714,"body":"But when you ask engineers, they"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":856.234,"endTime":860.714,"body":"say tech debt, core documentation"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":860.734,"endTime":865.444,"body":"and build processes are majorly"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":860.734,"endTime":865.444,"body":"impacting their developer experience."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":865.764,"endTime":868.464,"body":"So there's a pretty big"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":865.764,"endTime":868.464,"body":"misalignment about what's going on."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":868.814,"endTime":872.824,"body":"affecting developer experience, but"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":868.814,"endTime":872.824,"body":"they are actually aligned on one thing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":873.114,"endTime":877.134,"body":"And that is developer"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":873.114,"endTime":877.134,"body":"experience is very important."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":877.414,"endTime":879.944,"body":"however, even though they're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":877.414,"endTime":879.944,"body":"aligned on that, the reasons for,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":880.254,"endTime":882.214,"body":"for being important are different."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":882.394,"endTime":886.014,"body":"So from an engineering leader's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":882.394,"endTime":886.014,"body":"perspective, it's important."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":886.024,"endTime":890.184,"body":"They say it's important in terms"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":886.024,"endTime":890.184,"body":"of recruitment and retention of, of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":890.214,"endTime":891.894,"body":"engineers to their organizations."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":892.134,"endTime":894.814,"body":"and for engineers, they"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":892.134,"endTime":894.814,"body":"consider it when they are."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":895.354,"endTime":898.354,"body":"Making a decision whether to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":895.354,"endTime":898.354,"body":"stay or to look for a new job."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":899.014,"endTime":902.724,"body":"So developer experience is important"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":899.014,"endTime":902.724,"body":"even if it's for different reasons."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":903.484,"endTime":907.424,"body":"The second key finding is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":903.484,"endTime":907.424,"body":"understanding and improving developer"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":907.424,"endTime":909.724,"body":"experience actually pays dividends."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":910.084,"endTime":915.479,"body":"our data finds that there's a correlation"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":910.084,"endTime":915.479,"body":"between time spent on Understanding and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":915.479,"endTime":920.869,"body":"improving developer experience correlates"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":915.479,"endTime":920.869,"body":"with better developer efficiency."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":921.149,"endTime":924.119,"body":"there's a lot of companies"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":921.149,"endTime":924.119,"body":"out there looking to try and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":924.119,"endTime":925.639,"body":"improve developer productivity."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":925.889,"endTime":929.899,"body":"and this shows that, Investing in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":925.889,"endTime":929.899,"body":"developer experience is a good investment"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":929.939,"endTime":933.389,"body":"in terms of helping developers be"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":929.939,"endTime":933.389,"body":"more efficient with their work."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":933.959,"endTime":938.958,"body":"And then the third key finding that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":933.959,"endTime":938.958,"body":"I want to share is that engineers"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":938.958,"endTime":943.278,"body":"and their leaders have wildly"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":938.958,"endTime":943.278,"body":"different views on the impact of AI."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":944.618,"endTime":949.788,"body":"So again, if you ask leaders, they"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":944.618,"endTime":949.788,"body":"say that AI is the most effective way"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":949.828,"endTime":952.458,"body":"to improve Developer Productivity."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":953.118,"endTime":958.098,"body":"But when you ask engineers, two thirds"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":953.118,"endTime":958.098,"body":"of developers are saying that AI isn't"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":958.108,"endTime":960.848,"body":"helping them be more productive just yet."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":961.913,"endTime":966.023,"body":"So this misalignment, there's obviously"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":961.913,"endTime":966.023,"body":"a lot of this misalignment between"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":966.033,"endTime":972.523,"body":"engineers and their leaders, but If you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":966.033,"endTime":972.523,"body":"look at what causes or what the impact"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":972.523,"endTime":978.383,"body":"of this misalignment could be, a lot of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":972.523,"endTime":978.383,"body":"companies are spending some money and time"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":978.383,"endTime":980.513,"body":"trying to improve developer experience."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":981.158,"endTime":982.978,"body":"who is driving that within a company?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":982.978,"endTime":984.148,"body":"It's usually the leaders."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":984.428,"endTime":988.308,"body":"So if they don't understand what's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":984.428,"endTime":988.308,"body":"actually impacting a positive developer"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":988.308,"endTime":992.663,"body":"experience, It could lead to them"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":988.308,"endTime":992.663,"body":"investing in the wrong things, and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":992.673,"endTime":995.963,"body":"every company I speak with, they have"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":992.673,"endTime":995.963,"body":"obviously some limited budget that they've"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":995.963,"endTime":1000.213,"body":"got to spend on improving developer"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":995.963,"endTime":1000.213,"body":"experience, and so you want to make"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1000.213,"endTime":1003.593,"body":"sure that you're spending that money in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1000.213,"endTime":1003.593,"body":"the right area so that you're actually"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1003.593,"endTime":1004.983,"body":"moving the needle for your engineers."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1006.52,"endTime":1009.52,"body":"I heard a bunch of"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1006.52,"endTime":1009.52,"body":"great insights there, and so Andrew, I"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1009.52,"endTime":1012.29,"body":"really appreciate you kind of walking"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1009.52,"endTime":1012.29,"body":"us through some of the key things"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1012.29,"endTime":1013.86,"body":"that Atlassian found in this report."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1014.23,"endTime":1015.66,"body":"A couple I want to call out here."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1015.94,"endTime":1017.75,"body":"One, that AI impact difference."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1017.76,"endTime":1020.9,"body":"We're hearing that everywhere where"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1017.76,"endTime":1020.9,"body":"leaders are very much looking ahead"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1020.91,"endTime":1025.33,"body":"to these efficiency gains, or they see"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1020.91,"endTime":1025.33,"body":"small efficiency gains that stack up"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1025.33,"endTime":1028.81,"body":"across the board, but for individuals,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1025.33,"endTime":1028.81,"body":"it's a lot harder to say, Oh, this"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1028.81,"endTime":1030.56,"body":"has been massively impactful for me."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1030.895,"endTime":1034.895,"body":"maybe that's gonna change as we shift"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1030.895,"endTime":1034.895,"body":"more to, like, agentic AI experiences"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1034.915,"endTime":1038.985,"body":"versus simply, like, Socratically"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1034.915,"endTime":1038.985,"body":"talking with a, you know, clod or"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1038.985,"endTime":1040.415,"body":"something to help you with your coding."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1040.795,"endTime":1044.295,"body":"but there's definitely huge"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1040.795,"endTime":1044.295,"body":"opportunities for improvement there,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1044.335,"endTime":1048.785,"body":"and to your point, it also speaks"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1044.335,"endTime":1048.785,"body":"to the fact that many leaders today"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1048.785,"endTime":1051.03,"body":"are Looking at different things."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1051.15,"endTime":1054.19,"body":"I am happy to hear at least they"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1051.15,"endTime":1054.19,"body":"were aligned and everyone agrees,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1054.2,"endTime":1055.72,"body":"build processes are a problem."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1055.72,"endTime":1056.04,"body":"Great."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1056.04,"endTime":1056.34,"body":"Like that."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1056.34,"endTime":1057.38,"body":"We got, we got one, right."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1057.75,"endTime":1061.8,"body":"but if, if you are as an engineering"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1057.75,"endTime":1061.8,"body":"leader are not either surveying"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1061.8,"endTime":1066.89,"body":"your devs or ideally both leveraging"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1061.8,"endTime":1066.89,"body":"qualitative, but also quantitative"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1066.89,"endTime":1069.62,"body":"signals to understand what's happening"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1066.89,"endTime":1069.62,"body":"with your development processes and"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1069.63,"endTime":1072.549,"body":"what's happening through developers,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1069.63,"endTime":1072.549,"body":"it feels like you're missing out, um,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1072.549,"endTime":1078.02,"body":"because you're kind of assuming what"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1072.549,"endTime":1078.02,"body":"your devs may find to be a problem"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1078.02,"endTime":1079.42,"body":"without actually gathering data on it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1079.88,"endTime":1080.8,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1080.81,"endTime":1084.91,"body":"And I think the AI example that you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1080.81,"endTime":1084.91,"body":"raised just then is a really good one."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1085.323,"endTime":1089.173,"body":"if you just look at AI and the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1085.323,"endTime":1089.173,"body":"promise, the promise that a lot of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1089.173,"endTime":1092.393,"body":"these products make, of course, you'd"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1089.173,"endTime":1092.393,"body":"look at it and say, no brainer, I'm"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1092.393,"endTime":1095.913,"body":"going to give this to my devs and it's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1092.393,"endTime":1095.913,"body":"going to improve experience and help"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1095.913,"endTime":1098.413,"body":"them be more effective or efficient."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1098.893,"endTime":1101.593,"body":"but is it actually solving"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1098.893,"endTime":1101.593,"body":"a problem that you have?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1102.205,"endTime":1103.695,"body":"And so it really depends."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1103.695,"endTime":1104.985,"body":"Maybe it is, maybe it isn't."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1104.985,"endTime":1109.975,"body":"But AI is a tool and just giving a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1104.985,"endTime":1109.975,"body":"new tool to developers, regardless"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1109.975,"endTime":1112.795,"body":"of what tool that is, doesn't"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1109.975,"endTime":1112.795,"body":"mean it's going to help them."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1113.075,"endTime":1117.105,"body":"and without a good understanding of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1113.075,"endTime":1117.105,"body":"the problems they're having, there's no"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1117.105,"endTime":1118.915,"body":"sense in just giving them more tools."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1119.235,"endTime":1120.395,"body":"to try and improve things."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1121.515,"endTime":1123.175,"body":"Andrew, it's a"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1121.515,"endTime":1123.175,"body":"lot easier for me, though, if"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1123.175,"endTime":1124.275,"body":"I just give them more tools."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1124.305,"endTime":1126.985,"body":"Tools are shiny, they're"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1124.305,"endTime":1126.985,"body":"fun, it's exciting."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1126.985,"endTime":1131.195,"body":"Like, it's a lot harder to do that,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1126.985,"endTime":1131.195,"body":"that work of like, understanding the"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1131.195,"endTime":1135.845,"body":"problem and aligning on the right"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1131.195,"endTime":1135.845,"body":"solution and then maybe getting a tool"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1135.845,"endTime":1137.905,"body":"or maybe fixing a process or, or both."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1138.335,"endTime":1142.655,"body":"and I love that you're also thinking about"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1138.335,"endTime":1142.655,"body":"this from a You use the words developer"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1142.665,"endTime":1146.465,"body":"efficiency standpoint, but developer"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1142.665,"endTime":1146.465,"body":"productivity as well, because I really"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1146.475,"endTime":1149.585,"body":"think about developer experience and"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1146.475,"endTime":1149.585,"body":"developer productivity is like two sides"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1149.585,"endTime":1153.975,"body":"of the same coin where it's like, if you"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1149.585,"endTime":1153.975,"body":"can improve the day to day experience for"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1153.975,"endTime":1155.505,"body":"developers in the ways that they want."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1156.18,"endTime":1158.93,"body":"Your devs will typically deliver"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1156.18,"endTime":1158.93,"body":"more, your devs are great problem"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1158.95,"endTime":1163.46,"body":"solvers, your teams are there to solve"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1158.95,"endTime":1163.46,"body":"problems, it's exciting, it's fun."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1163.82,"endTime":1166.97,"body":"help them do that more efficiently"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1163.82,"endTime":1166.97,"body":"and you're gonna have that"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1166.97,"endTime":1168.2,"body":"productivity gain that you want."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1168.2,"endTime":1172.58,"body":"So I love that Atlassian is thinking"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1168.2,"endTime":1172.58,"body":"about this connection here because too"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1172.58,"endTime":1177.94,"body":"often I think The industry will kind of"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1172.58,"endTime":1177.94,"body":"hyper focus on one element or the other."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1178.02,"endTime":1182.12,"body":"and maybe if you're a scale up,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1178.02,"endTime":1182.12,"body":"you're thinking, Oh, I need dev prod."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1182.12,"endTime":1183.24,"body":"I really need productivity."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1183.24,"endTime":1184.26,"body":"I need to like innovate."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1184.26,"endTime":1185.86,"body":"I need to, you know, push features faster."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1186.16,"endTime":1188.45,"body":"And maybe if you're an enterprise, you're"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1186.16,"endTime":1188.45,"body":"thinking, Oh, I have to retain people."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1188.88,"endTime":1193.53,"body":"But really these are, these"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1188.88,"endTime":1193.53,"body":"problems are so holistically"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1193.55,"endTime":1195.02,"body":"combined in so many different ways."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1195.275,"endTime":1196.185,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1196.235,"endTime":1200.165,"body":"I mean, if you look at what goes"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1196.235,"endTime":1200.165,"body":"into developer productivity,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1200.165,"endTime":1201.295,"body":"it's really two things."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1201.625,"endTime":1206.875,"body":"You've got a great developer experience"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1201.625,"endTime":1206.875,"body":"and a positive engineering culture."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1207.345,"endTime":1211.075,"body":"and they're the, they're the real two"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1207.345,"endTime":1211.075,"body":"inputs into developer productivity."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1211.085,"endTime":1214.595,"body":"If you look at developer experience,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1211.085,"endTime":1214.595,"body":"it's around removing friction."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1214.915,"endTime":1218.845,"body":"It's around how do engineers"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1214.915,"endTime":1218.845,"body":"feel frameworks that they have"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1219.235,"endTime":1220.012,"body":"to deliver to their customers."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1220.012,"endTime":1220.13,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1221.26,"endTime":1223.33,"body":"to deliver software in your organization."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1223.79,"endTime":1226.51,"body":"And if you look at engineering"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1223.79,"endTime":1226.51,"body":"culture, it's about how things"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1226.51,"endTime":1229.96,"body":"are done, the decision making"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1226.51,"endTime":1229.96,"body":"process, and things like that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1230.12,"endTime":1232.6,"body":"Those are the two key"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1230.12,"endTime":1232.6,"body":"inputs to productivity."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1233.05,"endTime":1236.52,"body":"and so just, just saying we want"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1233.05,"endTime":1236.52,"body":"to improve developer productivity,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1236.8,"endTime":1238.25,"body":"is, is like saying nothing at all."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1238.26,"endTime":1238.76,"body":"Really."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1238.77,"endTime":1243.06,"body":"It's really one of those two other"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1238.77,"endTime":1243.06,"body":"things that you need to affect to improve"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1243.06,"endTime":1244.9,"body":"that, that efficiency for developers."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1246.18,"endTime":1247.65,"body":"And I like that"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1246.18,"endTime":1247.65,"body":"you're talking about it from"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1247.65,"endTime":1248.95,"body":"an efficiency angle as well."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1248.95,"endTime":1250.05,"body":"I think there's."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1250.405,"endTime":1254.475,"body":"A lot of folks that when they talk about"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1250.405,"endTime":1254.475,"body":"measuring developer productivity, I'll"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1254.525,"endTime":1259.685,"body":"use the McKinsey study that came out last"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1254.525,"endTime":1259.685,"body":"year now as an example, where they tend"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1259.685,"endTime":1264.795,"body":"to hyper focus on Maybe some metrics that"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1259.685,"endTime":1264.795,"body":"aren't the best, the best measures of"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1264.805,"endTime":1268.805,"body":"actual efficiency for the team, actual"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1264.805,"endTime":1268.805,"body":"improvement, and measuring productivity"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1268.805,"endTime":1271.955,"body":"has always been challenging, whether"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1268.805,"endTime":1271.955,"body":"in software development or elsewhere,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1272.305,"endTime":1275.775,"body":"especially with the pressures, of"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1272.305,"endTime":1275.775,"body":"delivering high quality software at speed."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1275.785,"endTime":1278.955,"body":"And the fact that devs are spending"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1275.785,"endTime":1278.955,"body":"less time coding and more time on other"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1278.955,"endTime":1283.565,"body":"responsibilities due to the shift left"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1278.955,"endTime":1283.565,"body":"movement, rise of microservices, AI, all"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1283.575,"endTime":1285.085,"body":"these different, things are happening."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1285.545,"endTime":1287.835,"body":"How do you think companies"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1285.545,"endTime":1287.835,"body":"should approach this given the"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1287.835,"endTime":1289.285,"body":"complexities of modern development?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1289.295,"endTime":1290.935,"body":"How should they be measuring productivity?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1291.2,"endTime":1294.37,"body":"You know, I get asked"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1291.2,"endTime":1294.37,"body":"this same question three or four times a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1294.37,"endTime":1296.12,"body":"week by different companies I speak with."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1296.3,"endTime":1298.5,"body":"They say, how should we,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1296.3,"endTime":1298.5,"body":"they jump straight to it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1298.51,"endTime":1300.79,"body":"How should we measure"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1298.51,"endTime":1300.79,"body":"developer productivity?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1302.4,"endTime":1305.0,"body":"Like, I want to know, why do we"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1302.4,"endTime":1305.0,"body":"want to measure productivity?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1305.01,"endTime":1309.19,"body":"I feel like we're more obsessed"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1305.01,"endTime":1309.19,"body":"with measuring productivity than"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1309.2,"endTime":1309.869,"body":"we are measuring productivity."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1310.13,"endTime":1313.27,"body":"Actually trying to help"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1310.13,"endTime":1313.27,"body":"developers be more productive."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1313.83,"endTime":1315.84,"body":"and how do we measure productivity?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1315.84,"endTime":1317.41,"body":"You can't measure productivity."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1317.7,"endTime":1321.6,"body":"There's been thousands of academics"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1317.7,"endTime":1321.6,"body":"who have researched knowledge,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1321.6,"endTime":1323.46,"body":"worker productivity over years."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1323.86,"endTime":1328.76,"body":"And the closest they've come is to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1323.86,"endTime":1328.76,"body":"say that, high employee satisfaction."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1329.305,"endTime":1333.055,"body":"leads to better productivity,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1329.305,"endTime":1333.055,"body":"but they have not come up with"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1333.085,"endTime":1334.655,"body":"a measure for productivity."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1334.965,"endTime":1337.655,"body":"So I think it's actually"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1334.965,"endTime":1337.655,"body":"the wrong question to ask."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1337.695,"endTime":1342.295,"body":"The right question is how do we help"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1337.695,"endTime":1342.295,"body":"our developers be more productive?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1342.825,"endTime":1346.265,"body":"And I get asked that question"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1342.825,"endTime":1346.265,"body":"far less than I get asked, how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1346.265,"endTime":1347.985,"body":"do we measure productivity?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1348.315,"endTime":1350.775,"body":"And so if you ask me, how do we help?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1351.02,"endTime":1352.58,"body":"Developers being more productive."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1352.95,"endTime":1355.26,"body":"The first step is to actually"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1352.95,"endTime":1355.26,"body":"understand what's stopping"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1355.26,"endTime":1357.26,"body":"them from being productive."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1357.52,"endTime":1360.19,"body":"And from the evidence we have"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1357.52,"endTime":1360.19,"body":"in our survey, you can see that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1360.19,"endTime":1361.45,"body":"not a lot of people are asking."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1361.86,"endTime":1363.61,"body":"That question of their developers."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1364.14,"endTime":1369.05,"body":"a few years ago, I spent two full"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1364.14,"endTime":1369.05,"body":"weeks in an organization just asking"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1369.11,"endTime":1373.95,"body":"engineers, how could we improve the way"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1369.11,"endTime":1373.95,"body":"software is delivered in this company?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1375.31,"endTime":1379.72,"body":"After two weeks, I got so much"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1375.31,"endTime":1379.72,"body":"information from developers."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1379.73,"endTime":1381.26,"body":"It was like a two year backlog."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1381.26,"endTime":1383.81,"body":"It would take us longer than"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1381.26,"endTime":1383.81,"body":"two years to sort out the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1383.82,"endTime":1385.14,"body":"things that, that they gave us."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1385.16,"endTime":1390.3,"body":"And at that time, I was expecting a lot"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1385.16,"endTime":1390.3,"body":"of Answers around tooling, around, build"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1390.3,"endTime":1393.68,"body":"processes, some of the things that we've"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1390.3,"endTime":1393.68,"body":"already spoken about, but there was"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1393.69,"endTime":1397.6,"body":"also an overwhelming amount of feedback"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1393.69,"endTime":1397.6,"body":"around the processes that the company"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1397.6,"endTime":1401.0,"body":"used, to track and to, deliver software."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1401.47,"endTime":1403.24,"body":"And that was a real surprise to me."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1403.24,"endTime":1406.95,"body":"And it kind of completely changed"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1403.24,"endTime":1406.95,"body":"the angle we were taking around"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1406.95,"endTime":1408.56,"body":"improving things for our developers."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1408.85,"endTime":1413.275,"body":"So the first step I always recommend"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1408.85,"endTime":1413.275,"body":"is, Ask your developers, speak to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1413.275,"endTime":1415.335,"body":"them, just ask them simple question."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1415.685,"endTime":1419.465,"body":"What's, what can we do to improve"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1415.685,"endTime":1419.465,"body":"the way we deliver software?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1419.865,"endTime":1424.755,"body":"And you'll get so much information, so"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1419.865,"endTime":1424.755,"body":"much rich information, that you'll have"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1424.795,"endTime":1426.425,"body":"more work than you can possibly handle."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1427.725,"endTime":1430.325,"body":"Do you think part"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1427.725,"endTime":1430.325,"body":"of the problem here is that too"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1430.325,"endTime":1436.48,"body":"many companies are focusing on"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1430.325,"endTime":1436.48,"body":"Individualized productivity versus"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1436.48,"endTime":1439.4,"body":"like broad team efficiency and where"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1436.48,"endTime":1439.4,"body":"there are problems and workflows."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1439.76,"endTime":1441.73,"body":"Or do you think it's"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1439.76,"endTime":1441.73,"body":"something deeper than that?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1442.315,"endTime":1445.205,"body":"what I see from"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1442.315,"endTime":1445.205,"body":"the company that I speak with is."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1445.83,"endTime":1450.36,"body":"If you look at what impacts developer"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1445.83,"endTime":1450.36,"body":"productivity, and certainly over the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1450.36,"endTime":1454.89,"body":"last 10 years as complexity has grown,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1450.36,"endTime":1454.89,"body":"it's really around the fact that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1454.89,"endTime":1458.49,"body":"developers need to do more, they need"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1454.89,"endTime":1458.49,"body":"to know more, they're under a lot more"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1458.49,"endTime":1463.4,"body":"pressure these days to deliver high"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1458.49,"endTime":1463.4,"body":"quality software at speed, like you said."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1463.83,"endTime":1467.26,"body":"And really there's two types of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1463.83,"endTime":1467.26,"body":"complexity that they deal with."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1467.68,"endTime":1472.195,"body":"There's intrinsic complexity, which"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1467.68,"endTime":1472.195,"body":"is, Complexity associated with being"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1472.195,"endTime":1476.685,"body":"a developer, which is things like, now"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1472.195,"endTime":1476.685,"body":"we need to know about dev and ops and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1476.685,"endTime":1481.995,"body":"cloud and AI and machine learning and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1476.685,"endTime":1481.995,"body":"all the things, testing, you name it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1482.315,"endTime":1485.805,"body":"Developers need to know everything"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1482.315,"endTime":1485.805,"body":"now, and that's intrinsic and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1485.805,"endTime":1487.309,"body":"that's Intrinsic to the role."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1487.309,"endTime":1490.829,"body":"So whichever company you work in, you,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1487.309,"endTime":1490.829,"body":"you're going to face that challenge."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1491.139,"endTime":1495.459,"body":"And then you have extrinsic"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1491.139,"endTime":1495.459,"body":"or organizational complexity."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1495.809,"endTime":1499.079,"body":"And this is the stuff that's specific"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1495.809,"endTime":1499.079,"body":"to the company that you work in."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1499.449,"endTime":1502.049,"body":"It could be things like,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1499.449,"endTime":1502.049,"body":"regulations that need to comply"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1502.049,"endTime":1503.409,"body":"with because of the industry."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1503.699,"endTime":1506.429,"body":"It could be processes, it could"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1503.699,"endTime":1506.429,"body":"be governance, things that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1506.769,"endTime":1508.129,"body":"a company has implemented."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1508.459,"endTime":1511.719,"body":"And so we have all these, these"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1508.459,"endTime":1511.719,"body":"two levels of complexity that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1511.769,"endTime":1513.759,"body":"developers need to handle."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1514.409,"endTime":1515.249,"body":"I often see."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1515.469,"endTime":1519.689,"body":"Companies trying to tackle one of those,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1515.469,"endTime":1519.689,"body":"they either try and abstract a lot"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1519.689,"endTime":1523.999,"body":"of complexity, intrinsic complexity,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1519.689,"endTime":1523.999,"body":"so you'll see platforms that abstract"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1523.999,"endTime":1528.359,"body":"and need to know about cloud and, and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1523.999,"endTime":1528.359,"body":"testing and all these other things, or"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1528.359,"endTime":1532.779,"body":"you'll see companies trying to simplify"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1528.359,"endTime":1532.779,"body":"their own environment by simplifying"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1532.819,"endTime":1534.719,"body":"processes and, and things like that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1535.829,"endTime":1538.609,"body":"Really, it's a holistic"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1535.829,"endTime":1538.609,"body":"approach, is the one that wins."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1538.609,"endTime":1542.809,"body":"So it's around complexity, it's around"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1538.609,"endTime":1542.809,"body":"understanding how much complexity."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1543.119,"endTime":1547.539,"body":"your developers face and how you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1543.119,"endTime":1547.539,"body":"can make their role and their lives"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1547.539,"endTime":1548.759,"body":"easier with dealing with that."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1550.059,"endTime":1553.489,"body":"So as I start to"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1550.059,"endTime":1553.489,"body":"implement that efficiency program, as"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1553.489,"endTime":1558.399,"body":"I have, you know, talked to my devs,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1553.489,"endTime":1558.399,"body":"maybe I've done a survey and have begun"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1558.399,"endTime":1559.939,"body":"understood some of the pain points."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1560.239,"endTime":1562.129,"body":"Maybe I've realized some of"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1560.239,"endTime":1562.129,"body":"the pain points aren't ones"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1562.139,"endTime":1562.889,"body":"that I thought they were."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1562.909,"endTime":1563.699,"body":"They're different ones."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1564.019,"endTime":1565.649,"body":"we've started to implement changes."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1565.649,"endTime":1567.249,"body":"How do you think?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1567.719,"endTime":1571.299,"body":"Teams should be tracking the"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1567.719,"endTime":1571.299,"body":"success of these initiatives."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1571.309,"endTime":1575.139,"body":"Is it purely on the qualitative side"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1571.309,"endTime":1575.139,"body":"or do you think there are quantitative"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1575.139,"endTime":1576.979,"body":"measures that should be leveraged as well?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1577.114,"endTime":1577.904,"body":"Yeah, there's both."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1577.904,"endTime":1581.205,"body":"So, if you look at, if we, if we look"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1577.904,"endTime":1581.205,"body":"at developer experience, let's say"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1581.205,"endTime":1585.365,"body":"that you've spoken to engineers and you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1581.205,"endTime":1585.365,"body":"find out, there's three things, three"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1585.365,"endTime":1589.225,"body":"major problems that's impacting most"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1585.365,"endTime":1589.225,"body":"of the engineers in your organization."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1590.265,"endTime":1591.585,"body":"The first step would be to measure that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1592.005,"endTime":1595.395,"body":"So you can't measure productivity,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1592.005,"endTime":1595.395,"body":"but you can measure things, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1595.435,"endTime":1597.795,"body":"And so let's say build times is a problem."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1597.865,"endTime":1601.085,"body":"Obviously you start measuring"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1597.865,"endTime":1601.085,"body":"build times if, and you baseline"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1601.085,"endTime":1603.845,"body":"it, if that, if that's what"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1601.085,"endTime":1603.845,"body":"engineers are saying is a problem."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1604.1,"endTime":1605.96,"body":"But to your"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1604.1,"endTime":1605.96,"body":"point, that's a workflow problem."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1605.96,"endTime":1610.35,"body":"It's not an overall productivity"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1605.96,"endTime":1610.35,"body":"measure and we can't equate the two."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1610.585,"endTime":1611.595,"body":"Well, do you need to?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1611.645,"endTime":1616.485,"body":"I mean, if, if, developers are saying"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1611.645,"endTime":1616.485,"body":"that build times is a major problem"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1616.485,"endTime":1620.735,"body":"for them and it's impacting their"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1616.485,"endTime":1620.735,"body":"productivity, then it probably is."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1620.785,"endTime":1624.725,"body":"Cause one thing that I'll"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1620.785,"endTime":1624.725,"body":"often laugh at is people forget"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1624.925,"endTime":1626.685,"body":"developers want to be productive."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1627.2,"endTime":1630.77,"body":"Right, like, everyone's like, we need to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1627.2,"endTime":1630.77,"body":"improve product, developer productivity,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1630.8,"endTime":1631.96,"body":"we need to do all these things."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1632.27,"endTime":1635.82,"body":"And they kind of talk about developers,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1632.27,"endTime":1635.82,"body":"it's like, hey, I'm here too."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1636.01,"endTime":1637.24,"body":"I want to be productive."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1637.56,"endTime":1641.76,"body":"And so, you know, if the way, the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1637.56,"endTime":1641.76,"body":"path to helping them be productive"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1641.76,"endTime":1645.92,"body":"is to listen to them, to ask them and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1641.76,"endTime":1645.92,"body":"to try and work with them to resolve"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1645.92,"endTime":1646.94,"body":"the problems that they're having."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1647.66,"endTime":1651.981,"body":"And so with a build process"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1647.66,"endTime":1651.981,"body":"example, you'd measure Build time."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1652.481,"endTime":1656.351,"body":"You'd come up with a solution or"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1652.481,"endTime":1656.351,"body":"what you plan to do to fix that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1656.861,"endTime":1659.841,"body":"you'd share that with engineers"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1656.861,"endTime":1659.841,"body":"just as a sanity check."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1659.841,"endTime":1661.451,"body":"Hey, we're thinking"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1659.841,"endTime":1661.451,"body":"about doing this thing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1661.811,"endTime":1662.821,"body":"is it going to make it worse?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1662.821,"endTime":1663.541,"body":"Will it make it better?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1664.171,"endTime":1668.551,"body":"you, you implement the thing, you re"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1664.171,"endTime":1668.551,"body":"baseline, you re, you ask engineers"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1668.551,"endTime":1670.361,"body":"again, did we solve the problem or not?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1670.701,"endTime":1673.371,"body":"and really that's the path"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1670.701,"endTime":1673.371,"body":"to, improving those things."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1674.963,"endTime":1675.483,"body":"Well said."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1675.493,"endTime":1680.113,"body":"I think there's a lot of folks"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1675.493,"endTime":1680.113,"body":"who take it a step too far though,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1680.213,"endTime":1683.163,"body":"and they say, well, we figured"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1680.213,"endTime":1683.163,"body":"out build times are the problem."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1683.203,"endTime":1684.233,"body":"It must be your problem too."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1684.738,"endTime":1692.078,"body":"And it's so easy to apply these measures"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1684.738,"endTime":1692.078,"body":"across companies, across teams, without"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1692.078,"endTime":1695.608,"body":"doing the work of actually figuring"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1692.078,"endTime":1695.608,"body":"out, is that the problem for your team?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1695.958,"endTime":1697.278,"body":"Is that the blocker in their workflow?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1697.318,"endTime":1702.248,"body":"Because like, yes, I can say generally"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1697.318,"endTime":1702.248,"body":"tech debt is probably a problem with 90"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1702.248,"endTime":1703.798,"body":"percent of organizations, maybe more."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1704.158,"endTime":1706.938,"body":"but is it the primary problem"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1704.158,"endTime":1706.938,"body":"that's holding your team back?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1706.988,"endTime":1707.148,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1707.598,"endTime":1708.428,"body":"Really depends."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1708.513,"endTime":1709.363,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1709.373,"endTime":1714.073,"body":"And like, something important to note"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1709.373,"endTime":1714.073,"body":"is that what we see in the survey that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1714.073,"endTime":1716.573,"body":"we released, that's a generic view."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1717.233,"endTime":1721.303,"body":"So yes, Documentation and tech debt and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1717.233,"endTime":1721.303,"body":"all these things they're common answers"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1721.303,"endTime":1724.283,"body":"you ask engineers from any company They're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1721.303,"endTime":1724.283,"body":"probably going to tell you those things."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1724.823,"endTime":1730.033,"body":"This is not a shortcut This survey is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1724.823,"endTime":1730.033,"body":"not a shortcut for you to say Oh tech"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1730.033,"endTime":1734.513,"body":"that's the biggest problem in the industry"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1730.033,"endTime":1734.513,"body":"and it affects all engineers So we're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1734.513,"endTime":1736.203,"body":"gonna we're gonna fix tech debt now."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1736.473,"endTime":1739.143,"body":"It may not be the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1736.473,"endTime":1739.143,"body":"problem It for your team."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1739.393,"endTime":1741.413,"body":"It may not, it may be a problem"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1739.393,"endTime":1741.413,"body":"for some of your team, but"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1741.413,"endTime":1742.543,"body":"not everybody in the team."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1742.883,"endTime":1745.243,"body":"And so there really is no shortcut here."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1745.273,"endTime":1748.463,"body":"And companies are really disappointed"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1745.273,"endTime":1748.463,"body":"when I tell them, Sorry, there's,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1748.533,"endTime":1750.173,"body":"there's no shortcut I can offer you."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1750.553,"endTime":1754.733,"body":"really you need to put in the work"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1750.553,"endTime":1754.733,"body":"to understand what's impacting the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1754.733,"endTime":1756.163,"body":"experience for your developers."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1756.723,"endTime":1760.018,"body":"If you look at Companies who do this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1756.723,"endTime":1760.018,"body":"really well and there's plenty of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1760.018,"endTime":1761.528,"body":"examples of them in the industry."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1762.198,"endTime":1764.138,"body":"They all have one thing in common."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1764.488,"endTime":1769.608,"body":"They spent a lot of time understanding"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1764.488,"endTime":1769.608,"body":"the challenges of their developers"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1769.688,"endTime":1772.828,"body":"and they set up processes and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1769.688,"endTime":1772.828,"body":"feedback loops so that they"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1772.828,"endTime":1774.658,"body":"continuously get this information."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1775.208,"endTime":1780.463,"body":"and so the process as I see it and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1775.208,"endTime":1780.463,"body":"what I recommend is Yes, you speak"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1780.463,"endTime":1784.353,"body":"to developers and get a general"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1780.463,"endTime":1784.353,"body":"sense of what's impacting them."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1784.683,"endTime":1785.913,"body":"Now that doesn't scale."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1785.963,"endTime":1788.633,"body":"If you've got a few thousand engineers,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1785.963,"endTime":1788.633,"body":"you're not speaking to everybody."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1788.983,"endTime":1792.093,"body":"and so you, you get a general"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1788.983,"endTime":1792.093,"body":"sense, then you run a survey."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1792.618,"endTime":1796.938,"body":"And go a little bit deeper and you expand"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1792.618,"endTime":1796.938,"body":"in these, in these areas where, engineers"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1796.988,"endTime":1798.178,"body":"have told you and you'll get a sense."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1798.198,"endTime":1799.508,"body":"Is it impacting everybody?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1799.878,"endTime":1802.788,"body":"what percentage of, of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1799.878,"endTime":1802.788,"body":"teams is it impacting?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1803.278,"endTime":1807.308,"body":"and then with that solid foundation"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1803.278,"endTime":1807.308,"body":"of knowledge, you can go and come"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1807.308,"endTime":1810.398,"body":"up with some initiatives that you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1807.308,"endTime":1810.398,"body":"can use to improve experience."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1811.898,"endTime":1814.928,"body":"Yeah, to your point, I"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1811.898,"endTime":1814.928,"body":"think it's really easy to skip one of"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1814.928,"endTime":1819.068,"body":"these steps or ignore different parts"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1814.928,"endTime":1819.068,"body":"of it, instead of thinking about this"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1819.068,"endTime":1822.998,"body":"holistic approach of saying, look, like,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1819.068,"endTime":1822.998,"body":"yes, I do want some quantitative measures"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1823.008,"endTime":1826.438,"body":"of like, how are my build times doing,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1823.008,"endTime":1826.438,"body":"you know, where are their challenges"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1826.438,"endTime":1828.098,"body":"when our PR is sitting too long?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1828.108,"endTime":1829.388,"body":"Like, what's, what's happening here?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1829.748,"endTime":1834.883,"body":"But, It's really easy to just pick"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1829.748,"endTime":1834.883,"body":"a framework and apply it instead of"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1834.883,"endTime":1836.443,"body":"saying, okay, let's get these measures."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1836.463,"endTime":1837.973,"body":"And also let's talk to our devs."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1838.013,"endTime":1839.693,"body":"And also let's survey our team."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1840.043,"endTime":1843.533,"body":"you know, Dora metrics, for example, they"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1840.043,"endTime":1843.533,"body":"become very popular, very useful in a"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1843.533,"endTime":1848.193,"body":"lot of cases, but as, as you and others"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1843.533,"endTime":1848.193,"body":"have pointed out, they're not always, in"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1848.193,"endTime":1852.943,"body":"fact, often are not directly aligned with"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1848.193,"endTime":1852.943,"body":"productivity or with developer experience."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1853.233,"endTime":1857.543,"body":"How should teams contextualize these"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1853.233,"endTime":1857.543,"body":"kinds of metrics to make them more"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1857.543,"endTime":1859.703,"body":"relevant in their specific use cases?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1860.804,"endTime":1863.884,"body":"I speak to a lot of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1860.804,"endTime":1863.884,"body":"companies who pick up a framework"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1863.884,"endTime":1870.174,"body":"or a tool and they try and apply it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1863.884,"endTime":1870.174,"body":"directly into their organization."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1870.234,"endTime":1872.384,"body":"And I have never seen it work."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1872.964,"endTime":1874.524,"body":"frameworks and tools are excellent."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1874.784,"endTime":1877.564,"body":"You take the bits that are"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1874.784,"endTime":1877.564,"body":"applicable to your scenario."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1877.889,"endTime":1880.519,"body":"you might change them a little bit"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1877.889,"endTime":1880.519,"body":"and then you apply them that way."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1880.919,"endTime":1883.109,"body":"You raised Dora metrics."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1883.329,"endTime":1886.119,"body":"That's a really good example"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1883.329,"endTime":1886.119,"body":"of taking an excellent tool and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1886.119,"endTime":1887.359,"body":"using it for the wrong thing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1887.809,"endTime":1891.737,"body":"Dora metrics are not intended"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1887.809,"endTime":1891.737,"body":"to measure productivity."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1892.187,"endTime":1893.607,"body":"Now I think Dora metrics are great."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1893.847,"endTime":1895.087,"body":"They're so accessible now."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1895.087,"endTime":1898.694,"body":"Like a few years ago, it was pretty, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1895.087,"endTime":1898.694,"body":"it was pretty hard to, you know, to, to,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1898.694,"endTime":1903.102,"body":"to get access to Dora metrics, whereas"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1898.694,"endTime":1903.102,"body":"now pretty, pretty much every developer"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1903.102,"endTime":1906.812,"body":"tool out of the box will give you some"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1903.102,"endTime":1906.812,"body":"of the Dora metrics, if not all of them."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1907.092,"endTime":1908.292,"body":"We offer"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1907.092,"endTime":1908.292,"body":"them out of the box."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1908.292,"endTime":1909.142,"body":"I think a lot of folks"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1909.262,"endTime":1909.642,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1909.642,"endTime":1911.102,"body":"So, know, they're great."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1911.142,"endTime":1915.542,"body":"There are great metrics at the team level"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1911.142,"endTime":1915.542,"body":"for the team to track for themselves."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1916.052,"endTime":1919.752,"body":"They're not something that I would"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1916.052,"endTime":1919.752,"body":"compare in my organization between teams."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1919.752,"endTime":1924.102,"body":"And I've seen this happen quite a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1919.752,"endTime":1924.102,"body":"bit where, you might have a digital"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1924.482,"endTime":1927.992,"body":"Team in a company and where they're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1924.482,"endTime":1927.992,"body":"working on a modern tech stack and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1927.992,"endTime":1930.112,"body":"their Dora metrics look fantastic."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1930.502,"endTime":1934.312,"body":"And then you have another team who's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1930.502,"endTime":1934.312,"body":"working on a legacy application"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1934.312,"endTime":1937.432,"body":"and maybe their Dora metrics"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1934.312,"endTime":1937.432,"body":"are not looking so crash hot."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1937.742,"endTime":1940.172,"body":"Well, it could be for them, but"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1937.742,"endTime":1940.172,"body":"when you compare them, you see a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1940.172,"endTime":1943.692,"body":"big disparity and then people are"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1940.172,"endTime":1943.692,"body":"asking, Oh, why is the difference?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1943.702,"endTime":1946.102,"body":"Why isn't that team on the legacy thing?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1946.367,"endTime":1949.687,"body":"Working as well as the other team,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1946.367,"endTime":1949.687,"body":"which is not the case at all,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1949.687,"endTime":1954.267,"body":"because it completely misses the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1949.687,"endTime":1954.267,"body":"context that that team operates in."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1954.607,"endTime":1957.047,"body":"and so, you know, DoraMetrics are great."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1957.097,"endTime":1961.257,"body":"A lot of these frameworks that are"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1957.097,"endTime":1961.257,"body":"available are fantastic frameworks."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1961.617,"endTime":1965.637,"body":"I haven't seen anything that I would pick"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":1961.617,"endTime":1965.637,"body":"up and apply directly in an organization."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1967.232,"endTime":1971.912,"body":"And I think this is where"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1967.232,"endTime":1971.912,"body":"a lot of people like, frankly, just take"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1971.912,"endTime":1975.382,"body":"a framework and they think, Oh, this"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1971.912,"endTime":1975.382,"body":"is the way, instead of thinking, this"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1975.382,"endTime":1978.532,"body":"is something I need to adapt to make"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1975.382,"endTime":1978.532,"body":"sure it fits the context of my company."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1978.532,"endTime":1979.922,"body":"And, there's a lot of great."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1980.162,"endTime":1983.922,"body":"Context you can gather both"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1980.162,"endTime":1983.922,"body":"externally and internally, like, yes."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1983.932,"endTime":1984.632,"body":"Talk to your devs."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1984.642,"endTime":1984.882,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1984.882,"endTime":1987.932,"body":"Survey their devs, check out"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1984.882,"endTime":1987.932,"body":"Atlassian's state of DevEx report,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1987.972,"endTime":1989.522,"body":"understand some of the common problems."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1989.862,"endTime":1991.872,"body":"You can look at what the Dora survey says."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1991.882,"endTime":1993.322,"body":"And there's a ton of"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1991.882,"endTime":1993.322,"body":"information there too."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1993.652,"endTime":1995.772,"body":"I'll say LinearB has our"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1993.652,"endTime":1995.772,"body":"engineering benchmark."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1995.772,"endTime":1999.102,"body":"If you want to look at Dora by industry"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1995.772,"endTime":1999.102,"body":"and Dora by company size, so you can"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1999.102,"endTime":2002.822,"body":"contextualize, Hey, what does this mean"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":1999.102,"endTime":2002.822,"body":"for my team and my company, but it's,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2002.842,"endTime":2005.072,"body":"it's so easy for that to be misapplied."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2005.082,"endTime":2008.012,"body":"If we don't have these conversations"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2005.082,"endTime":2008.012,"body":"and think about, Oh, What does it"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2008.012,"endTime":2009.562,"body":"actually take to implement this?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2009.862,"endTime":2013.912,"body":"it'd be so easy for me to say, Hey,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2009.862,"endTime":2013.912,"body":"tech debt, tech debt is a common issue."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2014.282,"endTime":2016.562,"body":"but it obviously means different"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2014.282,"endTime":2016.562,"body":"things, different companies."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2017.052,"endTime":2020.662,"body":"So how should my team approach"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2017.052,"endTime":2020.662,"body":"it and approach understanding and"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2020.662,"endTime":2023.902,"body":"managing tech debt in a way that"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2020.662,"endTime":2023.902,"body":"aligns with my productivity goals?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2024.202,"endTime":2027.452,"body":"I'm sure your advice on that would"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2024.202,"endTime":2027.452,"body":"be different depending on the type of"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2027.452,"endTime":2029.022,"body":"team I'm running, the type of company."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2029.307,"endTime":2030.407,"body":"And what our goals"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2030.747,"endTime":2032.347,"body":"Yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2030.747,"endTime":2032.347,"body":"mean, look at a startup."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2033.057,"endTime":2036.607,"body":"It's perfectly acceptable for a startup"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2033.057,"endTime":2036.607,"body":"to have high levels of tech debt because"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2036.867,"endTime":2038.487,"body":"they're looking for product market fit."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2038.527,"endTime":2041.477,"body":"They're not looking for,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2038.527,"endTime":2041.477,"body":"long term stability just yet."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2041.487,"endTime":2045.317,"body":"They don't have a huge"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2041.487,"endTime":2045.317,"body":"mass of users or customers."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2045.347,"endTime":2049.767,"body":"And so, you know, higher levels of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2045.347,"endTime":2049.767,"body":"tech debt in a startup would be much"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2049.767,"endTime":2054.272,"body":"more acceptable than high levels of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2049.767,"endTime":2054.272,"body":"tech debt in an established enterprise,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2054.462,"endTime":2057.572,"body":"where it really starts to slow"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2054.462,"endTime":2057.572,"body":"things down and impact developers."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2057.582,"endTime":2057.592,"body":"I"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2058.172,"endTime":2060.442,"body":"One of the themes"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2058.172,"endTime":2060.442,"body":"that's really coming through in this"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2060.442,"endTime":2062.112,"body":"discussion is the challenge of alignment."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2062.932,"endTime":2067.057,"body":"Whether it's aligning your platform"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2062.932,"endTime":2067.057,"body":"team to the right problems, Aligning"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2067.057,"endTime":2071.117,"body":"your devs and your leadership on what"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2067.057,"endTime":2071.117,"body":"the problems for developers are and"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2071.117,"endTime":2074.567,"body":"how to improve developer experience"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2071.117,"endTime":2074.567,"body":"or aligning your software development"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2074.567,"endTime":2076.147,"body":"team to broader business goals."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2076.727,"endTime":2080.887,"body":"You've mentioned before that"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2076.727,"endTime":2080.887,"body":"alignment is often more important"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2080.907,"endTime":2082.197,"body":"than being right as a leader."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2082.277,"endTime":2083.727,"body":"And frankly, I agree."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2084.267,"endTime":2087.527,"body":"How do you ensure that"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2084.267,"endTime":2087.527,"body":"alignment happens in practice?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2087.972,"endTime":2090.372,"body":"Yeah, this happens"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2087.972,"endTime":2090.372,"body":"at a few different levels."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2090.432,"endTime":2094.182,"body":"so if we look at the company level,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2090.432,"endTime":2094.182,"body":"within Atlassian DeveloperJoy"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2094.192,"endTime":2096.627,"body":"is a company level OKR."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2096.627,"endTime":2101.582,"body":"So it's at the top level, everyone can"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2096.627,"endTime":2101.582,"body":"see it and we track it really closely."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2102.232,"endTime":2105.902,"body":"And since we've had that as an"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2102.232,"endTime":2105.902,"body":"OKR, we've seen a 25 percent"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2105.902,"endTime":2107.962,"body":"increase in developer satisfaction."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2109.837,"endTime":2113.477,"body":"So when we talk about alignment,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2109.837,"endTime":2113.477,"body":"every leader knows that the best"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2113.477,"endTime":2116.667,"body":"way to align your teams is through"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2113.477,"endTime":2116.667,"body":"context and through setting goals."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2117.037,"endTime":2120.837,"body":"And there is no better way than"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2117.037,"endTime":2120.837,"body":"to set a company level goal around"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2121.407,"endTime":2124.047,"body":"developer experience to align teams."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2124.307,"endTime":2127.597,"body":"Because having it at that level"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2124.307,"endTime":2127.597,"body":"makes sure that there's alignment"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2127.607,"endTime":2129.217,"body":"between levels of management."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2129.657,"endTime":2133.597,"body":"and it goes across the entire business"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2129.657,"endTime":2133.597,"body":"that everyone's pushing towards the same"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2133.597,"endTime":2138.847,"body":"goal, which is to have a great developer"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2133.597,"endTime":2138.847,"body":"experience and to improve, developer joy."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2139.227,"endTime":2140.747,"body":"So I think number one is."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2141.177,"endTime":2145.847,"body":"having a solid goal right at the top,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2141.177,"endTime":2145.847,"body":"uh, that everyone has visibility to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2146.177,"endTime":2148.877,"body":"and, that it's tracked really closely."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2149.727,"endTime":2153.747,"body":"The second, the second part of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2149.727,"endTime":2153.747,"body":"it is really around, being able"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2153.747,"endTime":2158.427,"body":"to get that buy in from managers"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2153.747,"endTime":2158.427,"body":"and from across the organization."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2158.757,"endTime":2163.217,"body":"So it's good to have, a goal, but"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2158.757,"endTime":2163.217,"body":"what are you going to do when it comes"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2163.217,"endTime":2165.277,"body":"to moving the needle on that goal?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2166.077,"endTime":2169.607,"body":"A lot of the time engineers will"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2166.077,"endTime":2169.607,"body":"raise problems or they'll raise"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2169.607,"endTime":2174.827,"body":"ideas and to be quite honest it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2169.607,"endTime":2174.827,"body":"sounds like whinging or complaining."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2175.767,"endTime":2180.787,"body":"and so it's really about framing the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2175.767,"endTime":2180.787,"body":"solutions and framing what you want"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2180.787,"endTime":2185.267,"body":"to do in a way that's going to help"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2180.787,"endTime":2185.267,"body":"the business and explain the impact"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2185.307,"endTime":2189.807,"body":"associated with what you're trying to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2185.307,"endTime":2189.807,"body":"do to improve that company level goal."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2190.583,"endTime":2192.883,"body":"What strategies"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2190.583,"endTime":2192.883,"body":"are you using to ensure that your"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2192.883,"endTime":2195.953,"body":"engineering teams are aligned"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2192.883,"endTime":2195.953,"body":"to other business objectives?"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2196.303,"endTime":2200.003,"body":"While still having the opportunity"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2196.303,"endTime":2200.003,"body":"to innovate and experiment."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2200.183,"endTime":2202.983,"body":"Yeah, such a great"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2200.183,"endTime":2202.983,"body":"question because every company is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2202.983,"endTime":2207.403,"body":"under pressure and we're no different"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2202.983,"endTime":2207.403,"body":"to get new features out and do things"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2207.403,"endTime":2208.783,"body":"that our customers want us to do."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2209.293,"endTime":2213.763,"body":"and so, you know, experimentation"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2209.293,"endTime":2213.763,"body":"and innovation are really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2213.763,"endTime":2215.718,"body":"critical, critical parts of that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2215.728,"endTime":2218.648,"body":"So, I'd say there's, there's,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2215.728,"endTime":2218.648,"body":"it happens at two levels."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2219.348,"endTime":2222.708,"body":"Within Atlassian, we've got something"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2219.348,"endTime":2222.708,"body":"called ShipIt, which is our, we have"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2222.708,"endTime":2228.648,"body":"a quarterly 24 hour hackathon where,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2222.708,"endTime":2228.648,"body":"engineers or anyone in the company,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2228.648,"endTime":2233.258,"body":"I participate as well, can work on"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2228.648,"endTime":2233.258,"body":"whatever they want for 24 hours."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2233.258,"endTime":2236.858,"body":"You form a team or you join a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2233.258,"endTime":2236.858,"body":"team, and you can work on anything"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2236.858,"endTime":2239.178,"body":"that you want for 24 hours."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2239.578,"endTime":2242.928,"body":"Now we've had some really great"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2239.578,"endTime":2242.928,"body":"success come out of ShipIt."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2243.278,"endTime":2245.978,"body":"We have a product called"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2243.278,"endTime":2245.978,"body":"Jira Service Management."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2246.658,"endTime":2250.408,"body":"It's one of the leading ITSM"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2246.658,"endTime":2250.408,"body":"products, in the market."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2250.758,"endTime":2255.248,"body":"And that came out of a 24 hour"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2250.758,"endTime":2255.248,"body":"hackathon out of one of our Shippets."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2255.678,"endTime":2256.988,"body":"And so, yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2257.048,"endTime":2260.818,"body":"And so, you know, if you have a look"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2257.048,"endTime":2260.818,"body":"at, at Shippet, there's been so many"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2260.818,"endTime":2262.158,"body":"cool things that have come out of it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2262.408,"endTime":2265.768,"body":"and so that's, that's one level"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2262.408,"endTime":2265.768,"body":"of giving engineers space and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2265.768,"endTime":2267.078,"body":"time to do that sort of thing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2267.588,"endTime":2271.138,"body":"the second thing that we do is we"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2267.588,"endTime":2271.138,"body":"give engineers 10 percent time."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2271.678,"endTime":2275.228,"body":"And so this is 10 percent of their"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2271.678,"endTime":2275.228,"body":"time that they can spend, working on"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2275.248,"endTime":2280.638,"body":"things like, resolving tech debt, around"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2275.248,"endTime":2280.638,"body":"improving their own developer experience."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2280.978,"endTime":2284.498,"body":"they're given 10 percent of their"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2280.978,"endTime":2284.498,"body":"time to, to do engineering things"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2284.498,"endTime":2286.238,"body":"that, they need their time to do."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2286.668,"endTime":2290.258,"body":"And so I think, yes, we are"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2286.668,"endTime":2290.258,"body":"obviously working at pace."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2290.278,"endTime":2293.798,"body":"We have a lot of commitments, to our"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2290.278,"endTime":2293.798,"body":"customers that we want to keep, but"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2293.798,"endTime":2297.658,"body":"you do need to reserve time for that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2293.798,"endTime":2297.658,"body":"innovation and experimentation as well."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2298.301,"endTime":2301.631,"body":"I'm sure it can become"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2298.301,"endTime":2301.631,"body":"challenging though, to maintain the level"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2301.641,"endTime":2307.291,"body":"of alignment, the strong team culture"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2301.641,"endTime":2307.291,"body":"that you've talked about as you have"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2307.291,"endTime":2311.461,"body":"these pressures, like great, you have"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2307.291,"endTime":2311.461,"body":"the time set aside to solve tech debt"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2311.461,"endTime":2314.971,"body":"or, you know, work on other projects,"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2311.461,"endTime":2314.971,"body":"but there's obviously this rapid pace"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2314.971,"endTime":2316.381,"body":"of change happening in the industry."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2316.381,"endTime":2318.931,"body":"And there's a lot of pressure on"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2316.381,"endTime":2318.931,"body":"businesses as you've outlined."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2319.461,"endTime":2322.491,"body":"How beyond just, you know, setting goals."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2322.676,"endTime":2328.086,"body":"Do you kind of balance this need for"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2322.676,"endTime":2328.086,"body":"speed with this need for strong alignment?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2328.871,"endTime":2330.101,"body":"You"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2328.871,"endTime":2330.101,"body":"mentioned culture there."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2330.101,"endTime":2332.041,"body":"I would reframe that a little bit."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2332.311,"endTime":2337.571,"body":"Culture is what actually helps you work at"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2332.311,"endTime":2337.571,"body":"pace and innovate and do all these things."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2337.571,"endTime":2338.791,"body":"Culture is everything."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2339.251,"endTime":2342.501,"body":"and so, I don't see them"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2339.251,"endTime":2342.501,"body":"as mutually exclusive."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2342.831,"endTime":2345.321,"body":"you can work on culture and you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2342.831,"endTime":2345.321,"body":"can have a strong culture through"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2345.321,"endTime":2350.611,"body":"great leadership and an engaged team"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2345.321,"endTime":2350.611,"body":"that help you achieve those goals."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2351.156,"endTime":2355.856,"body":"and so, you know, reflecting on"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2351.156,"endTime":2355.856,"body":"when I joined Atlassian, one thing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2355.866,"endTime":2358.906,"body":"which I've never experienced in any"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2355.866,"endTime":2358.906,"body":"other company became really apparent"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2358.916,"endTime":2363.426,"body":"to me was the values that we have"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2358.916,"endTime":2363.426,"body":"and our, every company has values."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2364.066,"endTime":2366.956,"body":"The values are talked about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2364.066,"endTime":2366.956,"body":"three or four times a day."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2366.956,"endTime":2368.916,"body":"I hear someone mention"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2366.956,"endTime":2368.916,"body":"at least one of them."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2369.326,"endTime":2369.966,"body":"they live them."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2369.966,"endTime":2370.816,"body":"They're genuine."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2371.116,"endTime":2373.436,"body":"they're, they're plastered"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2371.116,"endTime":2373.436,"body":"all over our offices."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2373.721,"endTime":2374.631,"body":"they're everywhere."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2374.761,"endTime":2378.221,"body":"We can give internal kudos"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2374.761,"endTime":2378.221,"body":"for different things, and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2378.221,"endTime":2379.611,"body":"they're always based on values."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2379.911,"endTime":2383.321,"body":"and so we have really strong values"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2379.911,"endTime":2383.321,"body":"in Atlassian and it's something"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2383.321,"endTime":2385.511,"body":"that I haven't seen anywhere else."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2385.821,"endTime":2390.761,"body":"and those values are really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2385.821,"endTime":2390.761,"body":"what drive a company's culture."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2391.231,"endTime":2396.041,"body":"And so I would say culture is a strong"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2391.231,"endTime":2396.041,"body":"contributor to helping teams move at pace."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2396.341,"endTime":2398.871,"body":"It's a thing that you rely on"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2396.341,"endTime":2398.871,"body":"when there's pressure on and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2398.871,"endTime":2400.051,"body":"you need to get something out."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2400.431,"endTime":2402.311,"body":"I would say that's an aid rather than."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2402.611,"endTime":2406.571,"body":"you need to do both things, deliver"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2402.611,"endTime":2406.571,"body":"software and worry about culture."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2407.381,"endTime":2409.841,"body":"Andrew, this has"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2407.381,"endTime":2409.841,"body":"been a fantastic conversation."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2410.061,"endTime":2413.691,"body":"Before we wrap up, what advice would"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2410.061,"endTime":2413.691,"body":"you give to engineering leaders or"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2413.691,"endTime":2418.271,"body":"engineers who are listening and trying"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2413.691,"endTime":2418.271,"body":"to navigate these challenges of today's"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2418.271,"endTime":2421.251,"body":"developer experience landscape and"},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2418.271,"endTime":2421.251,"body":"building that great company culture?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2421.531,"endTime":2425.971,"body":"Yeah, I'll probably"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2421.531,"endTime":2425.971,"body":"summarize my feedback into two points."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2426.551,"endTime":2430.091,"body":"One, obviously there's a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2426.551,"endTime":2430.091,"body":"clear misalignment between"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2430.511,"endTime":2431.911,"body":"leaders and engineers."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2432.291,"endTime":2434.591,"body":"you know what I'm going to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2432.291,"endTime":2434.591,"body":"say, speak to your engineers."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2434.921,"endTime":2438.711,"body":"I'd say that this misalignment"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2434.921,"endTime":2438.711,"body":"is probably the leading cause"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2438.721,"endTime":2440.491,"body":"for a poor developer experience."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2440.901,"endTime":2444.781,"body":"so speak to your developers, be"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2440.901,"endTime":2444.781,"body":"transparent about what you're able to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2444.781,"endTime":2446.621,"body":"fix and what you need more time to fix."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2446.981,"endTime":2447.621,"body":"to work on."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2448.021,"endTime":2449.781,"body":"so alignment is the first one."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2450.031,"endTime":2454.221,"body":"The second bit of advice is learn"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2450.031,"endTime":2454.221,"body":"to write a good business case."},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2454.501,"endTime":2458.201,"body":"This is not a strong suite for a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2454.501,"endTime":2458.201,"body":"lot of engineering leaders, but it's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2458.201,"endTime":2462.041,"body":"really important so that once you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2458.201,"endTime":2462.041,"body":"know what needs to be fixed, you'll,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2462.131,"endTime":2465.891,"body":"you're able to get the support and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2462.131,"endTime":2465.891,"body":"the funding to fix those things."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2466.651,"endTime":2467.691,"body":"Andrew, thank you so much."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2467.691,"endTime":2468.491,"body":"It's been a pleasure."},{"speaker":"Conor Bronsdon","startTime":2468.521,"endTime":2469.561,"body":"Uh, great having you on the show"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2469.666,"endTime":2470.496,"body":"Thanks"},{"speaker":"Andrew Boyagi","startTime":2469.666,"endTime":2470.496,"body":"for having me, Conor."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2472.197,"endTime":2474.167,"body":"That's all"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2472.197,"endTime":2474.167,"body":"that we've got time for today."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2474.627,"endTime":2478.417,"body":"If you want to be a part of the Dev"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2474.627,"endTime":2478.417,"body":"Interrupted universe, we're always"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2478.417,"endTime":2481.977,"body":"looking for new people to share"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2478.417,"endTime":2481.977,"body":"interesting and unique stories with us."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2482.297,"endTime":2485.937,"body":"If this sounds like you, reach out to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2482.297,"endTime":2485.937,"body":"Dev Interrupted on LinkedIn, or you can"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2485.937,"endTime":2488.287,"body":"contact me directly, Ben Lloyd Pearson."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2488.707,"endTime":2490.397,"body":"Thanks everyone, we'll see you next week."}]}