{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":0.0,"endTime":3.649,"body":"Hey, Andrew, have"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":0.0,"endTime":3.649,"body":"you ever woken up in the morning"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3.699,"endTime":7.459,"body":"and thought to yourself, I would"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3.699,"endTime":7.459,"body":"love to get out of bed today and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":7.469,"endTime":9.639,"body":"help Dev Interrupted make content?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":10.677,"endTime":13.697,"body":"Well Ben, I think"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":10.677,"endTime":13.697,"body":"that most days, when I wake up."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":14.27,"endTime":15.459,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":14.27,"endTime":15.459,"body":"well, that's great."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":15.98,"endTime":20.14,"body":"Uh, but I also want to give"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":15.98,"endTime":20.14,"body":"our audience that opportunity."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":20.76,"endTime":23.91,"body":"Uh, and we'll get to that in just a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":20.76,"endTime":23.91,"body":"moment, but you've probably noticed"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":23.91,"endTime":27.519,"body":"some changes that are happening"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":23.91,"endTime":27.519,"body":"here at Dev Interrupted, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":27.54,"endTime":31.239,"body":"our goal really is just to provide"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":27.54,"endTime":31.239,"body":"the best coverage of topics that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":31.249,"endTime":33.28,"body":"matter the most to our audience."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":33.38,"endTime":35.67,"body":"And to that end, we've"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":33.38,"endTime":35.67,"body":"launched a new survey."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":35.985,"endTime":38.465,"body":"To gather feedback from"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":35.985,"endTime":38.465,"body":"you, our listeners."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":39.114,"endTime":44.025,"body":"We want to know what an ideal Dev"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":39.114,"endTime":44.025,"body":"Interrupted looks like for you."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":44.505,"endTime":49.294,"body":"And this will help us make the best"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":44.505,"endTime":49.294,"body":"content and let you influence the roadmap."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":49.335,"endTime":53.024,"body":"But there's one extra bonus that I'm"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":49.335,"endTime":53.024,"body":"going to let Andrew share with everyone."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":53.408,"endTime":53.977,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":53.997,"endTime":58.738,"body":"There's a little bit more to this too, as"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":53.997,"endTime":58.738,"body":"part of adjusting our content to make sure"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":58.738,"endTime":60.517,"body":"that we hit all the marks you want to see."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":60.968,"endTime":63.998,"body":"We want to invite you to share"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":60.968,"endTime":63.998,"body":"your opinions on topics like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":63.998,"endTime":69.248,"body":"developer productivity, developer"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":63.998,"endTime":69.248,"body":"experience, adopting and scaling AI."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":69.528,"endTime":73.358,"body":"And this becomes a chance to join the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":69.528,"endTime":73.358,"body":"conversation with us and engineering"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":73.358,"endTime":77.378,"body":"leaders that join us on this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":73.358,"endTime":77.378,"body":"podcast about the challenges facing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":77.388,"endTime":79.788,"body":"software engineering teams in 2025."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":79.788,"endTime":79.807,"body":"for listening."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":80.438,"endTime":83.887,"body":"The survey that Ben alluded to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":80.438,"endTime":83.887,"body":"includes a section for you to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":84.068,"endTime":88.438,"body":"indicate that interest, but even if"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":84.068,"endTime":88.438,"body":"not, we still want to hear from you."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":88.778,"endTime":91.998,"body":"Uh, we still want to know your"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":88.778,"endTime":91.998,"body":"opinion on Dev Interrupted."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":92.338,"endTime":95.717,"body":"It's only going to take a minute to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":92.338,"endTime":95.717,"body":"complete, so please check out the link"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":95.717,"endTime":99.717,"body":"in the show notes, and thanks in advance"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":95.717,"endTime":99.717,"body":"for sharing your opinion with us."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":100.467,"endTime":101.087,"body":"Thanks, Andrew."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":101.687,"endTime":105.307,"body":"And for our listeners out there,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":101.687,"endTime":105.307,"body":"I'm Ben Lloyd Pearson and I'm joined"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":105.307,"endTime":107.587,"body":"today by my co host, Andrew Ziegler."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":107.747,"endTime":109.457,"body":"Yeah, of course,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":107.747,"endTime":109.457,"body":"It's always great to be here,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":109.897,"endTime":112.027,"body":"excited to dig into today's topics."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":112.057,"endTime":113.227,"body":"What's top of mind for you?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":114.049,"endTime":114.429,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":114.429,"endTime":117.319,"body":"So, you know, I feel like we're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":114.429,"endTime":117.319,"body":"probably not going to get us"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":117.369,"endTime":122.274,"body":"through a single episode this season"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":117.369,"endTime":122.274,"body":"without Mentioning AI at least once,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":122.494,"endTime":123.024,"body":"Too true."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":123.192,"endTime":124.522,"body":"so, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":123.192,"endTime":124.522,"body":"the, the stories that have been"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":124.522,"endTime":127.192,"body":"catching my attention lately have"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":124.522,"endTime":127.192,"body":"been, you know, it seems like we're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":127.202,"endTime":131.612,"body":"going through another round of major"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":127.202,"endTime":131.612,"body":"investments into AI infrastructure."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd 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Pearson","startTime":149.207,"endTime":150.117,"body":"Microsoft."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":150.432,"endTime":154.122,"body":"A few weeks ago announced an"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":150.432,"endTime":154.122,"body":"$80 billion investment into"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":154.122,"endTime":156.912,"body":"their AI data centers in 2025."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":157.252,"endTime":160.942,"body":"and then Meta invested as"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":157.252,"endTime":160.942,"body":"part of the Databricks Series"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":160.942,"endTime":162.602,"body":"J, which is an AI startup."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":162.822,"endTime":166.002,"body":"it wasn't disclosed how much meta"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":162.822,"endTime":166.002,"body":"specifically invested, but it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":166.002,"endTime":167.322,"body":"was a 10 billion round overall."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":167.322,"endTime":168.702,"body":"So somewhere under that amount."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":169.232,"endTime":172.792,"body":"The AI hype cycle is clearly not over."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":173.092,"endTime":176.642,"body":"And it seems like what's really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":173.092,"endTime":176.642,"body":"beginning to emerge is that the U."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":176.642,"endTime":177.062,"body":"S."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":177.102,"endTime":182.552,"body":"and China are the only two major world"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":177.102,"endTime":182.552,"body":"powers that are aggressively investing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":182.552,"endTime":184.482,"body":"in AI infrastructure right now."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":185.47,"endTime":188.67,"body":"And more specifically,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":185.47,"endTime":188.67,"body":"they're investing in controlling"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":188.67,"endTime":190.42,"body":"and creating the AI chips."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":190.82,"endTime":193.04,"body":"Because that infrastructure"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":190.82,"endTime":193.04,"body":"is useless without the chips"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":193.04,"endTime":193.95,"body":"they're built to support."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":194.38,"endTime":197.9,"body":"And so we're going to see these"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":194.38,"endTime":197.9,"body":"world powers controlling that AI"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":197.95,"endTime":201.82,"body":"dominance by controlling the creation"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":197.95,"endTime":201.82,"body":"and production of that technology."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":202.642,"endTime":202.882,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":202.882,"endTime":206.562,"body":"It's like who can build the most hardware"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":202.882,"endTime":206.562,"body":"and then, you know, Put the most like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":206.662,"endTime":210.802,"body":"electricity behind it to train their"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":206.662,"endTime":210.802,"body":"models, you know, but it's almost, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":210.842,"endTime":214.352,"body":"know, what it almost feels like to me is,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":210.842,"endTime":214.352,"body":"is like, there's a bit of like an arms"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":214.352,"endTime":219.062,"body":"race that's emerging here that reminds"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd 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like it really puts things"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":234.972,"endTime":237.252,"body":"into perspective about what's happening."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":237.82,"endTime":241.138,"body":"And it really shows why the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":237.82,"endTime":241.138,"body":"next few years even can be so critical."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":241.5,"endTime":242.78,"body":"It's still early days."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":242.83,"endTime":246.61,"body":"There's something new every day when"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":242.83,"endTime":246.61,"body":"we wake up in this kind of development."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":246.95,"endTime":250.72,"body":"And while it reminds us now looking"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":246.95,"endTime":250.72,"body":"back on things like the space race"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":250.74,"endTime":253.77,"body":"and the Manhattan Project, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":250.74,"endTime":253.77,"body":"know, those projects themselves are"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":253.77,"endTime":257.54,"body":"even completely different from each"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":253.77,"endTime":257.54,"body":"other and a world full of unknowns"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":257.54,"endTime":259.4,"body":"and uncertainties every single day."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":259.43,"endTime":262.83,"body":"And I think that's the reality of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":259.43,"endTime":262.83,"body":"what we're currently experiencing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":262.89,"endTime":268.514,"body":"for example, the recent Chinese model"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":262.89,"endTime":268.514,"body":"DeepSeek R1, which uses pure reinforcement"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":268.514,"endTime":274.004,"body":"learning, is able to match OpenAI's O1"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":268.514,"endTime":274.004,"body":"power at 95 percent less of the cost."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":274.344,"endTime":277.494,"body":"And so what that tells us"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":274.344,"endTime":277.494,"body":"is there's no moats yet."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":277.664,"endTime":282.054,"body":"In the world of AI, no one is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":277.664,"endTime":282.054,"body":"secure in terms of developing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":282.314,"endTime":283.534,"body":"the next leading thing."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":284.731,"endTime":288.471,"body":"I mean, it's really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":284.731,"endTime":288.471,"body":"hard to shake the feeling that there are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":288.471,"endTime":290.541,"body":"just massive changes around the corner."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd 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expect significant"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":309.391,"endTime":312.911,"body":"payouts on the other end."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":314.114,"endTime":317.374,"body":"And speaking of this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":314.114,"endTime":317.374,"body":"kind of massive disruptive outcomes"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":317.374,"endTime":321.654,"body":"from AI, in the last week, the world"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":317.374,"endTime":321.654,"body":"of SEO was turned upside down by"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":321.654,"endTime":325.634,"body":"changes from Google in an attempt"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":321.654,"endTime":325.634,"body":"to protect its market share from AI."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":325.934,"endTime":328.929,"body":"This was an interesting story"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":325.934,"endTime":328.929,"body":"that I learned about in Perhaps"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":328.929,"endTime":331.659,"body":"if you're in close communication"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":328.929,"endTime":331.659,"body":"with your company's marketing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":331.659,"endTime":333.189,"body":"team, you've heard about this too."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":333.489,"endTime":337.639,"body":"but there were many changes from Google's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":333.489,"endTime":337.639,"body":"end in the last week that resulted in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":337.879,"endTime":342.419,"body":"temporary data blackouts on SEO tools,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":337.879,"endTime":342.419,"body":"and things that actually connect to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":342.419,"endTime":344.249,"body":"Google to understand page rankings."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":344.549,"endTime":347.479,"body":"for example, Shea Harrell, the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":344.549,"endTime":347.479,"body":"senior director of SimilarWeb."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":347.634,"endTime":351.294,"body":"Shared a statement saying that Google"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":347.634,"endTime":351.294,"body":"implemented significant changes to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":351.304,"endTime":355.354,"body":"how its systems handled automated"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":351.304,"endTime":355.354,"body":"interactions, and it required JavaScript"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":355.364,"endTime":356.964,"body":"to be enabled for search queries."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":357.274,"endTime":360.504,"body":"And what happened is it took about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":357.274,"endTime":360.504,"body":"five days for most of those tools"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":360.514,"endTime":363.474,"body":"to start working again, which, if"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":360.514,"endTime":363.474,"body":"you're working at a company that's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":363.474,"endTime":368.044,"body":"buying and investing in ad space and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":363.474,"endTime":368.044,"body":"lives and dies by the world of SEO,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":368.064,"endTime":369.724,"body":"that's an extremely stressful time."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":370.334,"endTime":375.014,"body":"And I see this as a play from Google"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":370.334,"endTime":375.014,"body":"to protect its dominance in the world"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":375.024,"endTime":378.884,"body":"of search, which is slowly getting"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":375.024,"endTime":378.884,"body":"eaten away by technology like AI."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":379.604,"endTime":384.441,"body":"For the first time since 2015,  Google's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":379.604,"endTime":384.441,"body":"global market share has dropped below 90%."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":384.926,"endTime":389.586,"body":"And we know that at this stage,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":384.926,"endTime":389.586,"body":"LLMs, when they're scraping websites"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":389.586,"endTime":392.486,"body":"and collecting content, they're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":389.586,"endTime":392.486,"body":"largely not executing JavaScript."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":392.776,"endTime":396.676,"body":"So this seems like a short term"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":392.776,"endTime":396.676,"body":"change to shake off the scrapers"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":396.676,"endTime":400.756,"body":"and give Google a little more time"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":396.676,"endTime":400.756,"body":"to protect its search supremacy."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":400.756,"endTime":402.486,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":402.633,"endTime":406.043,"body":"for a couple of months"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":402.633,"endTime":406.043,"body":"now that search is dead, you know, and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":406.043,"endTime":409.633,"body":"it's, it's a little hyperbolic because"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":406.043,"endTime":409.633,"body":"obviously, you know, even myself, I still"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":409.633,"endTime":414.436,"body":"use it, on basically a daily basis, but"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":409.633,"endTime":414.436,"body":"I also am starting to wonder, like, could"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":414.436,"endTime":420.156,"body":"we be witnessing, witnessing the death"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":414.436,"endTime":420.156,"body":"of APIs that provide free access to data?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":420.206,"endTime":425.207,"body":"So, you know, Twitter, Reddit, they've"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":420.206,"endTime":425.207,"body":"already, made their APIs more restrictive,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":425.457,"endTime":428.607,"body":"specifically, you know, I, I know"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":425.457,"endTime":428.607,"body":"Reddit, it was specifically because"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":428.607,"endTime":433.437,"body":"of AI training concerns, but I imagine"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":428.607,"endTime":433.437,"body":"Twitter had similar concerns as well."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":434.127,"endTime":437.687,"body":"And I've started to wonder, like,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":434.127,"endTime":437.687,"body":"is Stack Overflow the next one,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":437.747,"endTime":439.207,"body":"you know, they, they still provide."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":439.482,"endTime":442.242,"body":"Public data dumps, but, how"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":439.482,"endTime":442.242,"body":"long is that going to happen?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":442.242,"endTime":445.292,"body":"Particularly considering that they"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":442.242,"endTime":445.292,"body":"now have a partnership with open AI."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":445.922,"endTime":449.692,"body":"And, you know, personally, I really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":445.922,"endTime":449.692,"body":"love how like these GPT interfaces"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":449.712,"endTime":454.362,"body":"provide a search that, that really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":449.712,"endTime":454.362,"body":"does a good job at connecting disparate"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":454.362,"endTime":457.092,"body":"points between, multiple resources."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":457.302,"endTime":459.592,"body":"and honestly, that's probably"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":457.302,"endTime":459.592,"body":"been the single feature in these"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":459.592,"endTime":463.242,"body":"tools that have accelerated my"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":459.592,"endTime":463.242,"body":"workflows more than anything else."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":463.702,"endTime":467.212,"body":"But, you know, there's still so"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":463.702,"endTime":467.212,"body":"many bugs to iron out with this."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":467.407,"endTime":471.277,"body":"I personally experienced this pretty"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":467.407,"endTime":471.277,"body":"recently where, I'm not going to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":471.277,"endTime":473.817,"body":"share the term I was searching"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":471.277,"endTime":473.817,"body":"for, but it was a very basic term."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":474.232,"endTime":478.382,"body":"Search for like, what is meditation"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":474.232,"endTime":478.382,"body":"as an example, like that's not too"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":478.382,"endTime":479.822,"body":"dissimilar from what I was searching."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":480.292,"endTime":485.342,"body":"And the result that I got from Google's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":480.292,"endTime":485.342,"body":"AI was, it basically focused in on"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":485.342,"endTime":490.122,"body":"this really toxic version meditation"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":485.342,"endTime":490.122,"body":"and tried to convince me that I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":490.122,"endTime":494.252,"body":"might have a mental disorder for"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":490.122,"endTime":494.252,"body":"asking, asking it to find this word."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":494.492,"endTime":497.772,"body":"It blew my mind, but then it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":494.492,"endTime":497.772,"body":"got even more shocking when"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":497.772,"endTime":499.032,"body":"I asked somebody close to me."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":499.812,"endTime":501.342,"body":"To do the exact same search."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":501.712,"endTime":505.362,"body":"And the response was"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":501.712,"endTime":505.362,"body":"almost exact opposite."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":505.362,"endTime":510.462,"body":"It gave a very like clinical approach"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":505.362,"endTime":510.462,"body":"that was grounded in practical advice."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":510.732,"endTime":515.742,"body":"And it went even as far to encourage"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":510.732,"endTime":515.742,"body":"this person to reinforce people"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":515.742,"endTime":517.252,"body":"who were engaging in meditation."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":517.262,"endTime":518.382,"body":"Like I couldn't believe how."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":518.602,"endTime":521.872,"body":"It was shocking, honestly, how"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":518.602,"endTime":521.872,"body":"different those responses were."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":522.312,"endTime":524.482,"body":"And, you know, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":522.312,"endTime":524.482,"body":"mentioned DeepSeek earlier."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":524.482,"endTime":527.562,"body":"They've been kind of a hot"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":524.482,"endTime":527.562,"body":"entrant onto this market."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":527.902,"endTime":530.432,"body":"you know, one of the issues with"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":527.902,"endTime":530.432,"body":"them is they actively censor"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":530.432,"endTime":534.232,"body":"anything that goes against like the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":530.432,"endTime":534.232,"body":"Chinese Communist Party directives."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":534.652,"endTime":541.102,"body":"and really every single LLM has censorship"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":534.652,"endTime":541.102,"body":"capabilities like that built into"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":541.102,"endTime":545.022,"body":"it, because that's fundamentally how"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":541.102,"endTime":545.022,"body":"they're designed to, to make decisions."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":545.512,"endTime":548.952,"body":"You know, if you want to see what happens"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":545.512,"endTime":548.952,"body":"when these controls aren't in place, go"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":548.962,"endTime":550.812,"body":"look at what happened with Tay tweets."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":550.812,"endTime":554.772,"body":"Uh, I think back in 2016 or something,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":550.812,"endTime":554.772,"body":"where it just went off the rails and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":554.772,"endTime":560.582,"body":"said just extraordinarily like hateful"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":554.772,"endTime":560.582,"body":"and terrible things in relatively"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":560.582,"endTime":564.542,"body":"short order, So, you know, now more"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":560.582,"endTime":564.542,"body":"than ever, I feel like the algorithm"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":564.542,"endTime":569.322,"body":"that feeds you information is becoming"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":564.542,"endTime":569.322,"body":"more important than it ever has been,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":569.332,"endTime":570.922,"body":"even if it's always been important."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":571.322,"endTime":574.612,"body":"And Google is a really great"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":571.322,"endTime":574.612,"body":"example of what I think is going to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":574.653,"endTime":579.302,"body":"happen to a lot of companies, like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":574.653,"endTime":579.302,"body":"traditional conventional things that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":579.302,"endTime":581.332,"body":"we've all normalized over the last."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":582.097,"endTime":586.917,"body":"You know, one or two decades are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":582.097,"endTime":586.917,"body":"now having the, the, the paradigm"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":586.927,"endTime":589.107,"body":"just completely disrupted, you know?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":589.107,"endTime":592.337,"body":"So I think every, every company,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":589.107,"endTime":592.337,"body":"every leader should be thinking"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":592.337,"endTime":595.717,"body":"about this challenge and if it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":592.337,"endTime":595.717,"body":"going to impact them in a similar way"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":596.64,"endTime":597.73,"body":"I completely agree."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":597.81,"endTime":601.42,"body":"And by the way, for our listeners,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":597.81,"endTime":601.42,"body":"for those of you that are not"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":601.42,"endTime":604.92,"body":"already following us on Substack,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":601.42,"endTime":604.92,"body":"everything that we've discussed"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":604.92,"endTime":607.02,"body":"today is in the Substack newsletter."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":607.3,"endTime":613.783,"body":"So be sure to check it out and subscribe"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":607.3,"endTime":613.783,"body":"and us for more details on these topics."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":613.833,"endTime":618.783,"body":"Continuing to the topic at hand today, I"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":613.833,"endTime":618.783,"body":"want to start by setting the stage a bit."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":619.353,"endTime":623.443,"body":"Engineers have commonly treated"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":619.353,"endTime":623.443,"body":"applications and tools like low"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":623.443,"endTime":627.793,"body":"code design like the beginner's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":623.443,"endTime":627.793,"body":"lane of software development."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":628.223,"endTime":631.673,"body":"But what if the real power move is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":628.223,"endTime":631.673,"body":"knowing when to step into that lane?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":632.863,"endTime":634.273,"body":"Here's the thing about low code."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":634.433,"endTime":639.293,"body":"It's not beneath developers, but a force"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":634.433,"endTime":639.293,"body":"multipliers for rituals like automation."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":639.833,"endTime":643.953,"body":"And after the break, today's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":639.833,"endTime":643.953,"body":"guest, Bernd Ruecker of Camunda,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":644.253,"endTime":648.113,"body":"will talk about low code and other"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":644.253,"endTime":648.113,"body":"automation workflows, and how they"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":648.113,"endTime":649.703,"body":"fit into an engineer's day to day."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":654.205,"endTime":657.335,"body":"Join LinearB"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":654.205,"endTime":657.335,"body":"and Luca Rossi of refactoring."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":657.375,"endTime":661.055,"body":"fm for a workshop to learn the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":657.375,"endTime":661.055,"body":"three key traits shared by highly"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":661.055,"endTime":662.545,"body":"successful engineering teams."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":662.945,"endTime":666.145,"body":"This workshop uncovers a wealth"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":662.945,"endTime":666.145,"body":"of insights about how to make your"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":666.165,"endTime":668.375,"body":"engineering organization more successful."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":668.835,"endTime":671.765,"body":"You'll learn how to take practical"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":668.835,"endTime":671.765,"body":"steps to ensure engineering is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":671.765,"endTime":674.675,"body":"well regarded among leadership"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":671.765,"endTime":674.675,"body":"and non technical stakeholders."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":674.985,"endTime":678.495,"body":"Your engineers are satisfied with"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":674.985,"endTime":678.495,"body":"their development practices and to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":678.495,"endTime":679.675,"body":"more consistently ship and deliver."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":679.815,"endTime":684.178,"body":"Projects on time, check the show"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":679.815,"endTime":684.178,"body":"notes to RSVP your spot in tomorrow's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":684.178,"endTime":685.808,"body":"workshop, and we'll see you there."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":689.473,"endTime":693.023,"body":"Hey everyone, I'm your host, Ben"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":689.473,"endTime":693.023,"body":"Lloyd Pearson, Director of Developer"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":693.023,"endTime":697.302,"body":"Experience here at LinearB, and I'm"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":693.023,"endTime":697.302,"body":"delighted today to be joined by Bernd"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":697.302,"endTime":702.459,"body":"Ruecker Co Founder and Chief Technologist"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":697.302,"endTime":702.459,"body":"at Camunda Bernd, thank you so much"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":702.459,"endTime":703.739,"body":"for coming on the podcast today."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":704.473,"endTime":705.643,"body":"Thanks for having me, Ben."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":705.763,"endTime":706.773,"body":"I'm delighted."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":707.582,"endTime":709.622,"body":"today, I want to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":707.582,"endTime":709.622,"body":"spend some time just talking about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":709.642,"endTime":714.487,"body":"something that seems to be like pretty"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":709.642,"endTime":714.487,"body":"core to your professional experience,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":714.487,"endTime":716.067,"body":"and that's process automation."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":716.377,"endTime":719.567,"body":"You know, you founded a company that is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":716.377,"endTime":719.567,"body":"sort of centered around this concept."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":719.567,"endTime":722.937,"body":"So, you know, before we dive too"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":719.567,"endTime":722.937,"body":"deep into it, because, you know, we"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":722.937,"endTime":726.257,"body":"have an audience that comes from all"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":722.937,"endTime":726.257,"body":"different types of backgrounds, many"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":726.257,"endTime":730.367,"body":"of them are probably not super familiar"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":726.257,"endTime":730.367,"body":"with what process automation is."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":730.687,"endTime":732.737,"body":"Maybe if you could just give"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":730.687,"endTime":732.737,"body":"us from your perspective,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":732.747,"endTime":734.437,"body":"like just an overview of what."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":734.437,"endTime":736.967,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":737.205,"endTime":738.705,"body":"I always"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":737.205,"endTime":738.705,"body":"like to do examples."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":738.795,"endTime":740.845,"body":"we could pick basically an industry."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":740.915,"endTime":743.225,"body":"Um, at the moment I'm"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":740.915,"endTime":743.225,"body":"working with a lot of banks."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":743.265,"endTime":745.335,"body":"So let's, let's just use"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":743.265,"endTime":745.335,"body":"something from there."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":745.335,"endTime":747.435,"body":"For example, the bank"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":745.335,"endTime":747.435,"body":"account opening process."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":747.445,"endTime":749.445,"body":"So if you want to open"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":747.445,"endTime":749.445,"body":"up a bank account, you."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":749.595,"endTime":752.935,"body":"Basically, you go to the website of"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":749.595,"endTime":752.935,"body":"your bank, probably enter some data, and"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":752.935,"endTime":756.855,"body":"then you move through a process where"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":752.935,"endTime":756.855,"body":"a lot of things have to happen in a"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":756.855,"endTime":760.795,"body":"certain sequence, like probably you have"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":756.855,"endTime":760.795,"body":"to identify yourself, then there are"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":760.849,"endTime":764.215,"body":"checks on the bank side, like a fraud"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":760.849,"endTime":764.215,"body":"check and a trust check, and know your"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":764.235,"endTime":768.735,"body":"customer, compliance checks, sanctions"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":764.235,"endTime":768.735,"body":"checks, whatever, until you're done."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":768.985,"endTime":771.595,"body":"At some point in time,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":768.985,"endTime":771.595,"body":"hopefully get a bank account."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":771.605,"endTime":773.445,"body":"So the bank account must be opened."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":773.465,"endTime":775.005,"body":"An account number must be generated."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":775.005,"endTime":776.815,"body":"Probably you get a new"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":775.005,"endTime":776.815,"body":"credit card, whatever."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":776.815,"endTime":780.145,"body":"So there are a lot of steps that"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":776.815,"endTime":780.145,"body":"have to happen A lot of banks,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":780.145,"endTime":783.685,"body":"like other industries as well, try"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":780.145,"endTime":783.685,"body":"to automate as much as possible."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":783.695,"endTime":785.885,"body":"They try to digitize those processes."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":786.165,"endTime":789.445,"body":"They, of course, want to move away from"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":786.165,"endTime":789.445,"body":"pen and paper and so on and so forth."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":789.815,"endTime":791.585,"body":"And then process automation."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":791.585,"endTime":794.435,"body":"And I find that really important."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":794.505,"endTime":798.875,"body":"And it took me a couple of years actually"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":794.505,"endTime":798.875,"body":"to understand that a lot of confusion"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":798.915,"endTime":800.875,"body":"comes from not understanding that."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":801.215,"endTime":804.475,"body":"For me, process automation,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":801.215,"endTime":804.475,"body":"consists of two parts."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":804.785,"endTime":808.385,"body":"One is what I call process orchestration."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":808.665,"endTime":812.195,"body":"So basically the coordination"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":808.665,"endTime":812.195,"body":"of what steps have to happen."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":812.555,"endTime":814.615,"body":"And the other is task automation."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":814.615,"endTime":819.115,"body":"So basically not having all the"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":814.615,"endTime":819.115,"body":"tasks done by humans, and, probably"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":819.115,"endTime":820.19,"body":"automating them with, tasks."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":820.35,"endTime":824.37,"body":"Programming, Microservices, probably"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":820.35,"endTime":824.37,"body":"calling the right API or whatever."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":824.8,"endTime":827.55,"body":"And the combination then"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":824.8,"endTime":827.55,"body":"is process automation."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":827.87,"endTime":832.0,"body":"And you can do it, basically in two"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":827.87,"endTime":832.0,"body":"different flavors if you want to."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":832.05,"endTime":834.64,"body":"very often they come together,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":832.05,"endTime":834.64,"body":"but you could do process"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":834.82,"endTime":836.26,"body":"orchestration only if you like."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":836.37,"endTime":840.05,"body":"Then that would mean That you, for"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":836.37,"endTime":840.05,"body":"example, model the process saying there"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":840.05,"endTime":841.69,"body":"are a couple of steps I have to do."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":841.96,"endTime":846.64,"body":"And then I use a workflow orchestration"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":841.96,"endTime":846.64,"body":"engine to run that model instances"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":846.64,"endTime":849.73,"body":"of that saying, okay, the first"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":846.64,"endTime":849.73,"body":"thing I have to do is fraud check."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":850.34,"endTime":854.09,"body":"and then if you just use orchestration,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":850.34,"endTime":854.09,"body":"you would push that to a task list."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":854.715,"endTime":858.205,"body":"Of a human saying, Hey, you have to"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":854.715,"endTime":858.205,"body":"do fraud check now for this customer."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":858.205,"endTime":861.455,"body":"Then the human does that"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":858.205,"endTime":861.455,"body":"basically talks back to you."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":861.715,"endTime":864.535,"body":"And then the workflow engine or the"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":861.715,"endTime":864.535,"body":"orchestration engine knows what happens"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":864.535,"endTime":867.005,"body":"next, and that's the orchestration piece."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":867.085,"endTime":872.025,"body":"And you could do task automation only,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":867.085,"endTime":872.025,"body":"which basically means you get an incoming"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":872.025,"endTime":877.585,"body":"new bank account opening request, and"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":872.025,"endTime":877.585,"body":"then you program a small piece of code"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":877.975,"endTime":882.715,"body":"that whatever, grabs that email, grabs the"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":877.975,"endTime":882.715,"body":"data, does the front end, write something"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":882.715,"endTime":886.565,"body":"to a database, then you probably automate"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":882.715,"endTime":886.565,"body":"the task without looking at the, the"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":886.575,"endTime":888.475,"body":"orchestration piece, the overall process."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":889.085,"endTime":891.325,"body":"And process automation"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":889.085,"endTime":891.325,"body":"basically is, Bit of both."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":891.375,"endTime":894.915,"body":"And where I'm focused on a"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":891.375,"endTime":894.915,"body":"lot is the orchestrated part."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":895.015,"endTime":899.185,"body":"Basically getting, getting order into"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":895.015,"endTime":899.185,"body":"all the chaos of things that happen."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":900.114,"endTime":902.434,"body":"and I also work"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":900.114,"endTime":902.434,"body":"on a product that is really focused"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":902.434,"endTime":905.074,"body":"on workflow automation type stuff."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":905.134,"endTime":909.034,"body":"and I think, you know, one of the big"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":905.134,"endTime":909.034,"body":"points that I always make about this is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":909.034,"endTime":912.704,"body":"like, automation is not only a way to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":909.034,"endTime":912.704,"body":"speed up your workflows because you're,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":912.754,"endTime":916.634,"body":"you know, as you said, removing like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":912.754,"endTime":916.634,"body":"that pen to paper sort of Component"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":916.634,"endTime":918.807,"body":"of, things, but it also standardizes."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":918.817,"endTime":922.247,"body":"So it's like you're being more"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":918.817,"endTime":922.247,"body":"consistent while also moving"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":922.247,"endTime":923.607,"body":"more efficiently,  you know?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":923.607,"endTime":925.797,"body":"So it's like, there's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":923.607,"endTime":925.797,"body":"sort of two benefits to"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":925.916,"endTime":926.799,"body":"100%."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":926.809,"endTime":930.199,"body":"So we typically even put that into"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":926.809,"endTime":930.199,"body":"three or four different buckets,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":930.199,"endTime":931.789,"body":"depending on, how we talk about that."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":931.789,"endTime":935.014,"body":"The one is the, Operational"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":931.789,"endTime":935.014,"body":"efficiency, that basically means"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":935.024,"endTime":939.534,"body":"you're basically can operate cheaper,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":935.024,"endTime":939.534,"body":"probably, or, or also faster."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":939.974,"endTime":944.504,"body":"then we have, the whole thing about,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":939.974,"endTime":944.504,"body":"compliance and risk management."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":944.514,"endTime":948.251,"body":"So you basically reduce the error"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":944.514,"endTime":948.251,"body":"rates basically,  or the bias in the"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":948.251,"endTime":950.768,"body":"process and, and make it repeatable."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":951.156,"endTime":953.496,"body":"great"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":951.156,"endTime":953.496,"body":"analysis of process automation."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":953.496,"endTime":956.416,"body":"So let's talk a little bit more"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":953.496,"endTime":956.416,"body":"broadly speaking about what this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":956.426,"endTime":958.936,"body":"category itself looks like, because."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":959.005,"endTime":963.07,"body":"depending on the challenges that you're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":959.005,"endTime":963.07,"body":"trying to solve, the requirements you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":963.07,"endTime":967.17,"body":"face as an organization, particularly in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":963.07,"endTime":967.17,"body":"compliance, you're probably facing like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":967.17,"endTime":971.48,"body":"a lot of different competing philosophies"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":967.17,"endTime":971.48,"body":"around how to solve these challenges."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":971.49,"endTime":975.313,"body":"So like, walk me through like how"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":971.49,"endTime":975.313,"body":"you would, break down the use cases"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":975.313,"endTime":978.223,"body":"within this category and how they"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":975.313,"endTime":978.223,"body":"fit into the different philosophies."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":979.012,"endTime":982.602,"body":"It's actually a good segue"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":979.012,"endTime":982.602,"body":"to, answer the last category of the last"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":982.602,"endTime":986.362,"body":"question, because that's, a lot of things"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":982.602,"endTime":986.362,"body":"are around customer experience, nowadays."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":986.472,"endTime":991.247,"body":"Like, how quickly can you do"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":986.472,"endTime":991.247,"body":"things, don't get anything lost."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":991.427,"endTime":993.577,"body":"I think we all know that"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":991.427,"endTime":993.577,"body":"from a customer perspective."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":993.607,"endTime":995.607,"body":"You ordered something,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":993.607,"endTime":995.607,"body":"you never received it."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":995.617,"endTime":999.207,"body":"You, my last time I opened up"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":995.617,"endTime":999.207,"body":"a bank account with a, with"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":999.207,"endTime":1000.537,"body":"a actually big German bank."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1000.537,"endTime":1003.764,"body":"It took like, Six weeks, and I"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1000.537,"endTime":1003.764,"body":"called in two times, I think."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1003.854,"endTime":1006.814,"body":"So there you get lost"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1003.854,"endTime":1006.814,"body":"between certain cracks."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1007.254,"endTime":1009.014,"body":"And that's a really bad experience."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1009.054,"endTime":1013.534,"body":"And especially if you now look at"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1009.054,"endTime":1013.534,"body":"how you implement those processes"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1014.244,"endTime":1017.737,"body":"behind the scenes, it's sometimes"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1014.244,"endTime":1017.737,"body":"understandable why that happens."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1017.767,"endTime":1021.887,"body":"I mean, the obvious thing is you don't"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1017.767,"endTime":1021.887,"body":"implement, or you don't look or focus"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1021.887,"endTime":1023.297,"body":"on the end to end process at all."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1023.712,"endTime":1026.412,"body":"That basically means it's"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1023.712,"endTime":1026.412,"body":"kind of a chaos ping pong."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1026.772,"endTime":1030.292,"body":"you might do that chaos"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1026.772,"endTime":1030.292,"body":"ping pong more automated."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1030.332,"endTime":1035.712,"body":"Like nowadays, I'm not sure if you heard"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1030.332,"endTime":1035.712,"body":"about RPA, Robotic Process Automation."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1035.712,"endTime":1038.742,"body":"That was quite a hype, I would"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1035.712,"endTime":1038.742,"body":"say, five or six years ago."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1038.742,"endTime":1042.662,"body":"So the idea was instead of a human"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1038.742,"endTime":1042.662,"body":"entering data in a user interface,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1043.077,"endTime":1047.047,"body":"We use a bot doing that, so the"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1043.077,"endTime":1047.047,"body":"human doesn't have to do that."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1047.267,"endTime":1050.347,"body":"But the problem with that is it"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1047.267,"endTime":1050.347,"body":"looks at the task automation part."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1050.347,"endTime":1052.187,"body":"It doesn't look at the overall process."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1052.557,"endTime":1054.947,"body":"So it's still, chaos underneath."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1055.174,"endTime":1056.474,"body":"we had a good use case."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1056.484,"endTime":1060.824,"body":"I love that with, Deutsche Telekom and"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1056.484,"endTime":1060.824,"body":"they, they, had a lot of human work."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1060.824,"endTime":1063.384,"body":"Then they introduced a,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1060.824,"endTime":1063.384,"body":"massive amount of bots."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1063.894,"endTime":1066.474,"body":"And then they ended up with"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1063.894,"endTime":1066.474,"body":"what they called a SpaghettiBot."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1067.324,"endTime":1068.314,"body":"Um, integration."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1068.814,"endTime":1071.524,"body":"And then they started to"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1068.814,"endTime":1071.524,"body":"understand that it's a bit like,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1071.627,"endTime":1073.057,"body":"the shit in, shit out idea."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1073.107,"endTime":1077.496,"body":"you have to basically understand your"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1073.107,"endTime":1077.496,"body":"process first, then you have to know"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1077.607,"endTime":1081.457,"body":"how you want to automate the process"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1077.607,"endTime":1081.457,"body":"and then you can go about that."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1081.802,"endTime":1084.112,"body":"So you have spaghetti bots,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1081.802,"endTime":1084.112,"body":"which doesn't help you."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1084.112,"endTime":1086.152,"body":"So you want to want to"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1084.112,"endTime":1086.152,"body":"understand the process layer."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1086.152,"endTime":1089.412,"body":"And actually, there are a"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1086.152,"endTime":1089.412,"body":"couple of other technologies out"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1089.412,"endTime":1091.152,"body":"there, which go in a different."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1091.557,"endTime":1095.627,"body":"problem for me, event driven"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1091.557,"endTime":1095.627,"body":"architectures is one of those,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1096.277,"endTime":1099.847,"body":"technologies, or let's say architectural"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1096.277,"endTime":1099.847,"body":"styles, very often combined with"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1099.847,"endTime":1103.857,"body":"microservices, where the idea was,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1099.847,"endTime":1103.857,"body":"we can have all those microservices."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1104.287,"endTime":1108.111,"body":"They emit events like, Hey, somebody"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1104.287,"endTime":1108.111,"body":"opened a bank account we cleared"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1108.111,"endTime":1109.901,"body":"fraud for, for certain things."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1110.341,"endTime":1113.691,"body":"And then we have other microservices"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1110.341,"endTime":1113.691,"body":"reacting to those events."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1114.175,"endTime":1117.115,"body":"And the same problem, now you"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1114.175,"endTime":1117.115,"body":"start to automate the process."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1117.115,"endTime":1120.535,"body":"Yes, you start to automate the"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1117.115,"endTime":1120.535,"body":"task, but you don't understand"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1120.545,"endTime":1122.445,"body":"the process level anymore."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1122.715,"endTime":1127.035,"body":"Why does certain thing"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1122.715,"endTime":1127.035,"body":"happen in a certain sequence?"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1127.465,"endTime":1131.154,"body":"so these are typical problems then"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1127.465,"endTime":1131.154,"body":"you get if you don't have that"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1131.154,"endTime":1133.112,"body":"orchestration layer on a separate field"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1133.514,"endTime":1135.974,"body":"know, and I really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1133.514,"endTime":1135.974,"body":"like how you open this with focusing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1135.974,"endTime":1138.784,"body":"on like the customer experience, like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1135.974,"endTime":1138.784,"body":"thinking about how that process goes"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1138.784,"endTime":1144.081,"body":"all the way to like very end user that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1138.784,"endTime":1144.081,"body":"is impacted by it, I'm very much a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1144.081,"endTime":1148.711,"body":"subscriber to like Tom Peters thriving"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1144.081,"endTime":1148.711,"body":"on chaos where the rapidness in which"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1148.711,"endTime":1150.691,"body":"you respond to customers you know?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1150.691,"endTime":1152.221,"body":"And a customer can be internal as well."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1152.221,"endTime":1154.561,"body":"It can be internal,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1152.221,"endTime":1154.561,"body":"external, whoever it is."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1155.031,"endTime":1158.253,"body":"but using automation to be, to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1155.031,"endTime":1158.253,"body":"having that, having that full-fledged"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1158.253,"endTime":1161.763,"body":"process that can just respond"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1158.253,"endTime":1161.763,"body":"more quickly to the customer"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1162.126,"endTime":1164.616,"body":"and one part of that,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1162.126,"endTime":1164.616,"body":"and you can put it in the customer"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1164.616,"endTime":1168.546,"body":"experience box, but you could also"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1164.616,"endTime":1168.546,"body":"put it in the, business agility box."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1168.556,"endTime":1173.302,"body":"So we see a lot of change nowadays,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1168.556,"endTime":1173.302,"body":"uh, change in the way that the customer"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1173.322,"endTime":1177.398,"body":"interacts with the organization,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1173.322,"endTime":1177.398,"body":"websites, couple of years back now it's"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1177.478,"endTime":1179.538,"body":"chatbots or whatever it is tomorrow."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1180.028,"endTime":1182.298,"body":"and we also see a lot of"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1180.028,"endTime":1182.298,"body":"changes in the business model."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1182.308,"endTime":1186.178,"body":"So there is a lot of coming in"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1182.308,"endTime":1186.178,"body":"order to, to make that happen."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1187.068,"endTime":1190.518,"body":"And to, on the one hand, make the"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1187.068,"endTime":1190.518,"body":"customer still happy, and on the"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1190.518,"endTime":1195.418,"body":"other end, also keep the company"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1190.518,"endTime":1195.418,"body":"in business, you have to be able to"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1195.418,"endTime":1197.518,"body":"adjust and to change those processes."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1197.728,"endTime":1199.908,"body":"And the first step is"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1197.728,"endTime":1199.908,"body":"always to understand that."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1200.538,"endTime":1206.928,"body":"If you have this big bowl of spaghetti"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1200.538,"endTime":1206.928,"body":"integrations, or bots, or AI agents,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1206.928,"endTime":1212.798,"body":"if you're super modern, or, event,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1206.928,"endTime":1212.798,"body":"controlled microservices, it's super"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1212.808,"endTime":1214.558,"body":"hard to understand what's going on."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1214.558,"endTime":1218.548,"body":"And if you want to change something,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1214.558,"endTime":1218.548,"body":"that's a big, big problem, actually."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1218.988,"endTime":1221.298,"body":"And that's where process"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1218.988,"endTime":1221.298,"body":"orchestration starts where you say,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1221.298,"endTime":1223.488,"body":"okay, let's extract that process."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1223.788,"endTime":1227.968,"body":"Let's understand it and let's control"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1223.788,"endTime":1227.968,"body":"it on a, let's say on a separate layer."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1227.968,"endTime":1228.023,"body":"That's it."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1228.341,"endTime":1228.691,"body":"like that."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1228.691,"endTime":1232.481,"body":"Extracted from the spaghetti,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1228.691,"endTime":1232.481,"body":"and then you start understanding."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1232.481,"endTime":1236.951,"body":"it I'm not so much love talking about"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1232.481,"endTime":1236.951,"body":"layers because sometimes people then"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1236.961,"endTime":1241.721,"body":"think like the Process Orchestrator is"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1236.961,"endTime":1241.721,"body":"like a big, huge, monolithic thing above"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1241.791,"endTime":1242.951,"body":"everything else, which is not"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1243.102,"endTime":1245.622,"body":"oh, oh, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1243.102,"endTime":1245.622,"body":"know, the system architecture"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1245.622,"endTime":1246.912,"body":"models, like, stuff like that."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1246.971,"endTime":1247.212,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1247.75,"endTime":1251.035,"body":"you can still, find a good architecture."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1251.045,"endTime":1252.805,"body":"You can still go with microservice."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1252.855,"endTime":1255.705,"body":"For example, you can have one"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1252.855,"endTime":1255.705,"body":"microservice owning the bank"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1255.705,"endTime":1257.025,"body":"account opening, for example."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1257.035,"endTime":1260.505,"body":"Then also owning that, that"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1257.035,"endTime":1260.505,"body":"process and still use a process"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1260.505,"endTime":1262.555,"body":"orchestrator and a visual model."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1263.1,"endTime":1266.66,"body":"to make that, visible,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1263.1,"endTime":1266.66,"body":"understandable and changeable."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1267.251,"endTime":1270.901,"body":"So I think you've done"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1267.251,"endTime":1270.901,"body":"a great job explaining this and convincing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1270.901,"endTime":1274.371,"body":"our audience that you've clearly thought"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1270.901,"endTime":1274.371,"body":"about this for quite a long time."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1274.671,"endTime":1276.811,"body":"what's your unique, take on this?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1276.811,"endTime":1279.439,"body":"You know, obviously you started"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1276.811,"endTime":1279.439,"body":"a company that, Communda that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1279.439,"endTime":1280.679,"body":"is focused on this problem."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1280.679,"endTime":1282.429,"body":"So what's the unique take"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1280.679,"endTime":1282.429,"body":"that you believe you've"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1282.439,"endTime":1283.299,"body":"brought to the table?"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1283.648,"endTime":1287.228,"body":"when I started the company,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1283.648,"endTime":1287.228,"body":"basically we were a consulting company."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1287.778,"endTime":1290.508,"body":"And we were focused around the"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1287.778,"endTime":1290.508,"body":"whole, back then it was named"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1290.508,"endTime":1291.838,"body":"business process management."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1291.838,"endTime":1297.068,"body":"So basically business processes, and"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1291.838,"endTime":1297.068,"body":"we were working with a lot of different"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1297.068,"endTime":1301.348,"body":"clients actually, using different kinds"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1297.068,"endTime":1301.348,"body":"of software that range from these,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1301.428,"endTime":1307.368,"body":"back then it was, um, BPM suites like"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1301.428,"endTime":1307.368,"body":"IBM or others, or very, let's say low"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1307.368,"endTime":1309.528,"body":"tech open source stacks sometimes."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1309.628,"endTime":1313.318,"body":"what we understand after a while is"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1309.628,"endTime":1313.318,"body":"that there's a lot of value in these"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1313.338,"endTime":1318.238,"body":"process models and executable processes,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1313.338,"endTime":1318.238,"body":"but the software is really, really"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1318.238,"endTime":1319.678,"body":"a problem that we have out there."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1319.698,"endTime":1325.138,"body":"Either too monolithic, too complex,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1319.698,"endTime":1325.138,"body":"too hard to work with for a developer."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1325.728,"endTime":1328.648,"body":"Or the open source ones were"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1325.728,"endTime":1328.648,"body":"too low tech, basically."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1328.648,"endTime":1332.238,"body":"They didn't have a, not even a visual"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1328.648,"endTime":1332.238,"body":"editor or a visual model probably you"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1332.238,"endTime":1334.088,"body":"had to code a lot of things around that."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1334.098,"endTime":1335.678,"body":"So, um, not very productive."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1336.368,"endTime":1341.154,"body":"And from that experience, we said,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1336.368,"endTime":1341.154,"body":"okay, this is how we think, Such a"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1341.154,"endTime":1342.644,"body":"process orchestrator should look like."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1343.034,"endTime":1347.094,"body":"And one of the key elements there,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1343.034,"endTime":1347.094,"body":"I mean, besides the obvious things,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1347.094,"endTime":1348.554,"body":"you have a visual workflow model."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1348.554,"endTime":1350.044,"body":"You can execute that directly."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1350.094,"endTime":1355.915,"body":"We're using BPMN as a standard,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1350.094,"endTime":1355.915,"body":"which is quite adopted worldwide."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1356.725,"endTime":1357.955,"body":"That's the obvious things."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1358.415,"endTime":1362.315,"body":"but then we made it, what we call"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1358.415,"endTime":1362.315,"body":"developer friendly, and very open in"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1362.315,"endTime":1366.265,"body":"the architecture so you can plug that"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1362.315,"endTime":1366.265,"body":"into any kind of technology you like."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1366.305,"endTime":1370.495,"body":"I mean, they're rooted in Java, so Java"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1366.305,"endTime":1370.495,"body":"is sometimes a bit easier, but we also"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1370.495,"endTime":1374.975,"body":"have clients in the NET world or nowadays"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1370.495,"endTime":1374.975,"body":"Python gets more and more important so You"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1374.995,"endTime":1381.405,"body":"can hook that into, the architecture used"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1374.995,"endTime":1381.405,"body":"there, into the, um, CI, CD pipelines."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1381.415,"endTime":1385.275,"body":"So basically the software engineering"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1381.415,"endTime":1385.275,"body":"approach you're doing, and also"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1385.275,"endTime":1389.035,"body":"hooking it into whatever you have"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1385.275,"endTime":1389.035,"body":"like SSO and so on and so forth."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1389.085,"endTime":1392.755,"body":"So it's very easy to integrate that"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1389.085,"endTime":1392.755,"body":"into your software development,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1393.395,"endTime":1397.455,"body":"approach and not the other way around,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1393.395,"endTime":1397.455,"body":"because what we see with a lot of."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1397.82,"endTime":1402.24,"body":"Those, orchestration vendors, they"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1397.82,"endTime":1402.24,"body":"vary off much more rooted in low code."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1403.215,"endTime":1407.155,"body":"Which has more the vibes of, we don't"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1403.215,"endTime":1407.155,"body":"want to have the developers anymore."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1407.635,"endTime":1409.605,"body":"We want to do that with"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1407.635,"endTime":1409.605,"body":"the business people only."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1409.605,"endTime":1412.385,"body":"And then we just can do that"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1409.605,"endTime":1412.385,"body":"magically out of the box."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1412.405,"endTime":1414.038,"body":"And that was not working."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1414.045,"endTime":1417.385,"body":"That's what we saw back then,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1414.045,"endTime":1417.385,"body":"especially not for complex processes."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1417.785,"endTime":1421.755,"body":"And we had the exact opposite approach"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1417.785,"endTime":1421.755,"body":"saying, okay, there's value in all those"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1421.785,"endTime":1425.845,"body":"models, but let's take it to the developer"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1421.785,"endTime":1425.845,"body":"world and make it accessible there."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1426.485,"endTime":1429.345,"body":"And then probably add some"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1426.485,"endTime":1429.345,"body":"layers of low code if people want"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1430.039,"endTime":1432.229,"body":"as someone who"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1430.039,"endTime":1432.229,"body":"used to be a software developer,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1432.509,"endTime":1436.349,"body":"I've encountered this, this like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1432.509,"endTime":1436.349,"body":"low code versus like software"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1436.349,"endTime":1438.629,"body":"development like conundrum many times."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1438.969,"endTime":1442.152,"body":"and from my experience, I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1438.969,"endTime":1442.152,"body":"most, most developers have"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1442.622,"endTime":1447.062,"body":"A reaction that ranges from, eye"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1442.622,"endTime":1447.062,"body":"rolls and groans to like outright"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1447.082,"endTime":1448.872,"body":"hostility, depending on like the"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1449.201,"endTime":1450.511,"body":"I think that's accurate."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1450.531,"endTime":1450.741,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1451.332,"endTime":1451.732,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1451.732,"endTime":1454.362,"body":"So let's just start at like a high level."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1454.372,"endTime":1459.002,"body":"So if you're a company that is trying to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1454.372,"endTime":1459.002,"body":"figure out when to deploy low code versus"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1459.002,"endTime":1463.062,"body":"actually having your software developers"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1459.002,"endTime":1463.062,"body":"focus on it, on like building something"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1463.072,"endTime":1467.093,"body":"custom, like at a high level, how do"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1463.072,"endTime":1467.093,"body":"you break down where you draw that line?"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1467.51,"endTime":1469.567,"body":"first of"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1467.51,"endTime":1469.567,"body":"all, to acknowledge that I'm"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1469.587,"endTime":1470.777,"body":"on the same page actually."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1470.777,"endTime":1474.657,"body":"And when we started the company and"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1470.777,"endTime":1474.657,"body":"when we moved into being a product"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1474.657,"endTime":1477.567,"body":"vendor, 10 years ago, then it was."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1478.342,"endTime":1482.212,"body":"Exactly that, but true as there, it"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1478.342,"endTime":1482.212,"body":"shouldn't be always low code just"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1482.212,"endTime":1485.882,"body":"because you want to use BPMN, for"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1482.212,"endTime":1485.882,"body":"example, to automate workflows."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1486.512,"endTime":1490.532,"body":"the thing that changed over"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1486.512,"endTime":1490.532,"body":"time now, is that it's not"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1491.402,"endTime":1492.93,"body":"such a binary decision anymore."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1493.192,"endTime":1496.512,"body":"Back then it was you were either a"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1493.192,"endTime":1496.512,"body":"business person and you want to use"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1496.512,"endTime":1498.378,"body":"low code or you were a developer"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1496.512,"endTime":1498.378,"body":"and you wanted to write java.."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1498.402,"endTime":1504.692,"body":"Um, but nowadays we have also in the"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1498.402,"endTime":1504.692,"body":"roles of the people, we have a much more"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1504.732,"endTime":1508.852,"body":"diverse set of people that range from"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1504.732,"endTime":1508.852,"body":"really senior developers or whatever,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1509.342,"endTime":1515.172,"body":"super spring guru, for example, to"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1509.342,"endTime":1515.172,"body":"probably very junior developers or"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1515.212,"endTime":1519.112,"body":"people that are more in, for example,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1515.212,"endTime":1519.112,"body":"data models and they can do a bit"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1519.112,"endTime":1521.792,"body":"of Python or, or so on and so forth."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1521.812,"endTime":1526.662,"body":"We have business people that also"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1521.812,"endTime":1526.662,"body":"understand some bits and pieces of coding."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1526.672,"endTime":1530.972,"body":"We have AI assisted coding that"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1526.672,"endTime":1530.972,"body":"people with a bit of technical"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1530.972,"endTime":1532.362,"body":"understanding can probably use."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1532.612,"endTime":1536.317,"body":"So it opens up a big"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1532.612,"endTime":1536.317,"body":"variety of people actually."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1536.317,"endTime":1540.212,"body":"And so it's not so much about,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1536.317,"endTime":1540.212,"body":"Low code or not low code."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1540.552,"endTime":1543.332,"body":"For me, the important thing"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1540.552,"endTime":1543.332,"body":"is to understand that you also"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1543.332,"endTime":1546.602,"body":"have to build very different"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1543.332,"endTime":1546.602,"body":"solutions in the organization."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1546.602,"endTime":1548.692,"body":"So that can range from super complex."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1548.942,"endTime":1551.952,"body":"So we typically use those, kind"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1548.942,"endTime":1551.952,"body":"of access, like complexity,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1551.952,"endTime":1554.682,"body":"criticality, value to the business."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1555.092,"endTime":1559.172,"body":"And in complexity, you can then find"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1555.092,"endTime":1559.172,"body":"a lot of things like, for example,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1559.212,"endTime":1561.532,"body":"uh, how often does that process run?"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1561.542,"endTime":1563.182,"body":"It's a very different thing if you do."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1563.347,"endTime":1566.727,"body":"something once a day, or if you"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1563.347,"endTime":1566.727,"body":"run it a million times per second."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1566.747,"endTime":1570.677,"body":"So we have customers doing that, which"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1566.747,"endTime":1570.677,"body":"needs, of course, if it breaks, it's a,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1570.707,"endTime":1576.457,"body":"it's a different, order of magnitude, the"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1570.707,"endTime":1576.457,"body":"problem, or how many different systems,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1576.497,"endTime":1581.247,"body":"or we like to call them endpoints are"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1576.497,"endTime":1581.247,"body":"involved, different types of systems."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1581.447,"endTime":1586.247,"body":"This is a bit of just calling up"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1581.447,"endTime":1586.247,"body":"some SaaS services, or do I have"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1586.287,"endTime":1592.482,"body":"my bespoke, AS 400 host system and"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1586.287,"endTime":1592.482,"body":"seller, which I have to talk to."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1593.036,"endTime":1594.852,"body":"So all these kinds of things matter."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1595.762,"endTime":1599.533,"body":"And then you get kind of a range where"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1595.762,"endTime":1599.533,"body":"you say, okay, my use case is here."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1599.543,"endTime":1604.063,"body":"For example, I have a core bank account"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1599.543,"endTime":1604.063,"body":"opening process that runs whatever"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1604.073,"endTime":1606.033,"body":"a couple of thousand times per day."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1606.453,"endTime":1608.573,"body":"If I get in trouble,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1606.453,"endTime":1608.573,"body":"it's really a problem."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1608.573,"endTime":1609.923,"body":"I have compliance requirements."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1609.923,"endTime":1612.333,"body":"So it's basically It's"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1609.923,"endTime":1612.333,"body":"important to get it right."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1612.653,"endTime":1616.063,"body":"I want to use, I want to"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1612.653,"endTime":1616.063,"body":"get to a certain quality."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1616.663,"endTime":1620.083,"body":"And then you use things from software"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1616.663,"endTime":1620.083,"body":"engineering, because that's what"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1620.083,"endTime":1623.203,"body":"we know in software engineering,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1620.083,"endTime":1623.203,"body":"how to do high quality software."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1623.203,"endTime":1626.433,"body":"We want to write tests,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1623.203,"endTime":1626.433,"body":"automated tests, for example, and"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1626.433,"endTime":1627.893,"body":"pipelines and so on and so forth."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1628.593,"endTime":1631.263,"body":"but at the same time, you will"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1628.593,"endTime":1631.263,"body":"have use cases on the other end"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1631.273,"endTime":1635.586,"body":"where say, in banking, one of the"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1631.273,"endTime":1635.586,"body":"examples I often use is the, bank"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1635.586,"endTime":1637.896,"body":"account, bank, um, transfer limit."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1638.281,"endTime":1640.751,"body":"Change, which you can do"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1638.281,"endTime":1640.751,"body":"in your online banking."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1640.751,"endTime":1644.815,"body":"Say, I want to set that"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1640.751,"endTime":1644.815,"body":"to from 5, 000 to 10, 000."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1645.281,"endTime":1649.081,"body":"And there's a small workflow running"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1645.281,"endTime":1649.081,"body":"behind that because you do a couple of"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1649.101,"endTime":1652.961,"body":"checks and verifications and probably"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1649.101,"endTime":1652.961,"body":"even a manual approval, depending on"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1652.961,"endTime":1655.391,"body":"certain rules, but it's not very complex."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1655.861,"endTime":1660.711,"body":"And honestly, if, if that goes out, the"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1655.861,"endTime":1660.711,"body":"normally the impact is also not that big."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1661.071,"endTime":1664.651,"body":"So you might apply different"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1661.071,"endTime":1664.651,"body":"quality requirements."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1664.966,"endTime":1666.016,"body":"around that process."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1666.056,"endTime":1669.196,"body":"And that means probably you"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1666.056,"endTime":1669.196,"body":"can, you can get to a higher"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1669.196,"endTime":1670.506,"body":"degree of low code, for example."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1671.184,"endTime":1674.734,"body":"it's almost like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1671.184,"endTime":1674.734,"body":"the developers are like commandos or"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1674.734,"endTime":1679.837,"body":"people with superpowers that the things"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1674.734,"endTime":1679.837,"body":"that you don't need an expert to focus"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1679.847,"endTime":1685.437,"body":"on solving the challenge, Tends to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1679.847,"endTime":1685.437,"body":"be like, the type of thing that, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1685.437,"endTime":1687.057,"body":"can hand off to process automation."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1687.057,"endTime":1691.007,"body":"So like from your perspective,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1687.057,"endTime":1691.007,"body":"like what, what is the role of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1691.027,"endTime":1692.797,"body":"the software developer in this"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1693.092,"endTime":1695.892,"body":"I like this question"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1693.092,"endTime":1695.892,"body":"because that's probably something"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1695.892,"endTime":1701.222,"body":"I forgot in the last answer is,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1695.892,"endTime":1701.222,"body":"the quality you want to get to the"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1701.242,"endTime":1703.352,"body":"complexity, critical use cases, whatever."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1703.772,"endTime":1709.312,"body":"Um, but at the same time, we see more and"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1703.772,"endTime":1709.312,"body":"more that the teams that build solutions."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1709.902,"endTime":1712.452,"body":"are getting much more cross functional."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1712.452,"endTime":1714.062,"body":"So we have more business people in there."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1714.062,"endTime":1715.172,"body":"We have developers in there."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1715.662,"endTime":1721.932,"body":"and what we see is that the role of the"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1715.662,"endTime":1721.932,"body":"developers are kind of shifting towards,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1721.992,"endTime":1727.262,"body":"the hard problems, which are not that"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1721.992,"endTime":1727.262,"body":"easily solvable by low code, for example,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1727.302,"endTime":1731.242,"body":"if we keep with that example, the core"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1727.302,"endTime":1731.242,"body":"banking system has a very weird API."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1731.242,"endTime":1735.772,"body":"It's not just a well documented"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1731.242,"endTime":1735.772,"body":"open API compliant REST API."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1735.772,"endTime":1737.102,"body":"It's something super weird."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1737.692,"endTime":1741.292,"body":"where you might need a developer"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1737.692,"endTime":1741.292,"body":"actually to integrate it because that's"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1741.312,"endTime":1742.942,"body":"the most efficient thing you can do."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1742.962,"endTime":1744.602,"body":"We write a bit of code to integrate it."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1745.022,"endTime":1748.73,"body":"And then, what it can do is"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1745.022,"endTime":1748.73,"body":"have those developers do that."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1748.896,"endTime":1753.036,"body":"And then probably they end up with"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1748.896,"endTime":1753.036,"body":"providing certain, connectors to"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1753.036,"endTime":1757.356,"body":"the outer world where you say, okay,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1753.036,"endTime":1757.356,"body":"and I now leverage those in when I"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1757.366,"endTime":1759.016,"body":"stitch together my business processes."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1759.016,"endTime":1761.326,"body":"Um, and that might be again."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1761.616,"endTime":1766.366,"body":"Probably done by somebody which, or"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1761.616,"endTime":1766.366,"body":"who is not that technical, who can't"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1766.556,"endTime":1770.476,"body":"write code in that language, but"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1766.556,"endTime":1770.476,"body":"doesn't have to because they understand,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1770.896,"endTime":1772.876,"body":"the overall flow of the process."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1772.916,"endTime":1776.006,"body":"They understand the data flow"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1772.916,"endTime":1776.006,"body":"complex enough, but a different"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1776.006,"endTime":1779.406,"body":"kind of thinking, a different"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1776.006,"endTime":1779.406,"body":"kind of personality behind that."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1779.616,"endTime":1782.886,"body":"Maybe you're using behavior driven"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1779.616,"endTime":1782.886,"body":"testing where you also abstracted that,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1782.946,"endTime":1786.963,"body":"where you say, okay, somebody is writing"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1782.946,"endTime":1786.963,"body":"these fixtures and somebody writes the"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1786.963,"endTime":1788.793,"body":"tests, which is not that technical."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1788.803,"endTime":1792.806,"body":"So it's, it's the same idea over"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1788.803,"endTime":1792.806,"body":"and over again, basically pushing"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1792.806,"endTime":1797.176,"body":"certain very, very technical tasks"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1792.806,"endTime":1797.176,"body":"to more developer and to people"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1797.216,"endTime":1800.736,"body":"so that other roles can basically"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1797.216,"endTime":1800.736,"body":"participate in building solutions."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1801.137,"endTime":1801.324,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1801.324,"endTime":1804.374,"body":"And, and really what you're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1801.324,"endTime":1804.374,"body":"describing is this like world where"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1804.374,"endTime":1806.294,"body":"there's this growing diversity of."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1806.384,"endTime":1808.524,"body":"people who can build things, right?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1808.954,"endTime":1813.394,"body":"so in a world where like, let's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1808.954,"endTime":1813.394,"body":"say, it's years in the future"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1813.394,"endTime":1817.55,"body":"and everyone is adopting, these"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1813.394,"endTime":1817.55,"body":"types of, development workflows."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1818.074,"endTime":1821.064,"body":"how do developers like still"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1818.074,"endTime":1821.064,"body":"stay relevant in this world?"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1821.393,"endTime":1823.363,"body":"I mean, first"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1821.393,"endTime":1823.363,"body":"of all, that's kind of the, I"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1823.373,"endTime":1824.693,"body":"think the overall disclaimer."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1825.128,"endTime":1828.368,"body":"nobody really knows how development"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1825.128,"endTime":1828.368,"body":"will look like in five or 10 years from"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1828.368,"endTime":1828.578,"body":"now."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1828.578,"endTime":1833.678,"body":"I mean, I'm looking at how quickly"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1828.578,"endTime":1833.678,"body":"certain things evolve at the moment,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1834.308,"endTime":1836.418,"body":"and change, makes it hard to predict."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1836.868,"endTime":1840.878,"body":"At the same time, what I find"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1836.868,"endTime":1840.878,"body":"most important at the moment"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1840.878,"endTime":1843.378,"body":"is really It's a mindset thing."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1843.668,"endTime":1844.818,"body":"It's exactly what he said."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1845.048,"endTime":1848.238,"body":"It's still, if I talk to people saying,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1845.048,"endTime":1848.238,"body":"okay, there's a visual model, we"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1848.238,"endTime":1850.278,"body":"actually go like, oh, a visual model."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1850.278,"endTime":1854.798,"body":"That's kind of these model trim"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1850.278,"endTime":1854.798,"body":"nonsense that never worked 10"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1854.808,"endTime":1856.478,"body":"years ago, 20 years ago, whatever."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1856.838,"endTime":1858.948,"body":"we don't, I still hear that."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1858.978,"endTime":1862.358,"body":"Oh no, we don't like graphical"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1858.978,"endTime":1862.358,"body":"models for no good reason."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1862.368,"endTime":1863.948,"body":"We don't like XML for no good reason."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1864.238,"endTime":1865.838,"body":"So there are all these perceptions."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1866.338,"endTime":1868.028,"body":"and I find that a big problem."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1868.058,"endTime":1869.568,"body":"I think actually as a developer."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1869.878,"endTime":1876.028,"body":"I should start to understand what"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1869.878,"endTime":1876.028,"body":"low code is, what are good use cases"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1876.028,"endTime":1879.348,"body":"for low code, but what are probably"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1876.028,"endTime":1879.348,"body":"also limitations of low code."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1879.688,"endTime":1884.738,"body":"And what I said early on, there are"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1879.688,"endTime":1884.738,"body":"extension points or customizable,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1885.178,"endTime":1886.948,"body":"areas in the whole low code game."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1887.303,"endTime":1891.863,"body":"So then I can position myself properly"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1887.303,"endTime":1891.863,"body":"and say, okay, I'm in that world."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1891.883,"endTime":1896.483,"body":"I don't want to write the next"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1891.883,"endTime":1896.483,"body":"integration of something which I"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1896.483,"endTime":1898.103,"body":"can just track and drop in low code."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1898.123,"endTime":1898.893,"body":"That doesn't make sense."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1898.923,"endTime":1900.243,"body":"That doesn't make me more valuable."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1900.243,"endTime":1903.913,"body":"That doesn't make my job more interesting,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1900.243,"endTime":1903.913,"body":"but I probably have a lot of hard"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1903.913,"endTime":1907.353,"body":"problems still to solve, and then I"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1903.913,"endTime":1907.353,"body":"can plug in with these other things."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1907.873,"endTime":1913.653,"body":"Just be open for that and embrace it"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1907.873,"endTime":1913.653,"body":"to the extent that it makes sense."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1913.703,"endTime":1915.843,"body":"And then probably also enable others."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1915.893,"endTime":1918.983,"body":"I'm using that, is for me,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1915.893,"endTime":1918.983,"body":"mostly a mindset shift."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1919.833,"endTime":1923.143,"body":"And I find that important to acknowledge"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1919.833,"endTime":1923.143,"body":"from a developer point of view,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1923.433,"endTime":1925.193,"body":"because otherwise we will end up with."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1925.503,"endTime":1928.013,"body":"What we see in a lot of"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1925.503,"endTime":1928.013,"body":"organizations, which is more"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1928.013,"endTime":1930.423,"body":"like, Oh, the IT is too slow."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1930.423,"endTime":1932.993,"body":"The developers are not"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1930.423,"endTime":1932.993,"body":"understanding our requirements."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1933.373,"endTime":1935.953,"body":"business has to move"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1933.373,"endTime":1935.953,"body":"because that's a reality."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1935.953,"endTime":1938.233,"body":"They can't just stand still, do nothing."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1938.503,"endTime":1943.403,"body":"So they, they start to, to buy local tools"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1938.503,"endTime":1943.403,"body":"for themselves and try it for themselves."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1943.473,"endTime":1948.633,"body":"And everybody that saw that happening,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1943.473,"endTime":1948.633,"body":"Knows that that doesn't go well"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1949.073,"endTime":1952.703,"body":"because that bypasses everything,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1949.073,"endTime":1952.703,"body":"all quality controls, all compliant"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1952.703,"endTime":1954.303,"body":"controls, all governance, everything."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1954.743,"endTime":1958.643,"body":"and that's kind of a malicious cycle"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1954.743,"endTime":1958.643,"body":"because then people see that and say,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1958.643,"endTime":1960.663,"body":"Oh, local, see that doesn't work."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1960.673,"endTime":1961.583,"body":"it's horrible."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1962.075,"endTime":1965.543,"body":"Then business and IT are"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1962.075,"endTime":1965.543,"body":"drifting further apart instead"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1965.543,"endTime":1967.153,"body":"of basically getting together."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1967.643,"endTime":1972.883,"body":"And that's a huge missed opportunity"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1967.643,"endTime":1972.883,"body":"because especially visual models,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1972.883,"endTime":1977.343,"body":"they help communicate those different,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1972.883,"endTime":1977.343,"body":"different people and doing it right helps"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":1977.373,"endTime":1979.193,"body":"getting cross functional teams together."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1979.892,"endTime":1980.192,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1980.232,"endTime":1983.382,"body":"You know, and I think deep down,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1980.232,"endTime":1983.382,"body":"like developers don't want to be"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1983.382,"endTime":1986.852,"body":"the ones who are just constantly"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1983.382,"endTime":1986.852,"body":"intaking an endless list of."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1987.307,"endTime":1989.297,"body":"Tickets to produce new connectors"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1989.357,"endTime":1993.977,"body":"and minor updates to like interfaces,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1989.357,"endTime":1993.977,"body":"I think most developers, particularly"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1993.977,"endTime":1996.297,"body":"as they progress further in their"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1993.977,"endTime":1996.297,"body":"career, like they want to be focused"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1996.307,"endTime":2000.327,"body":"more on like the bigger problems"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1996.307,"endTime":2000.327,"body":"and the deeper challenges that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2000.437,"endTime":2001.577,"body":"nobody else can solve."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2002.151,"endTime":2005.221,"body":"So let's maybe talk about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2002.151,"endTime":2005.221,"body":"some first steps then."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2005.221,"endTime":2010.361,"body":"So if an organization wanted to start"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2005.221,"endTime":2010.361,"body":"thinking about this as a solution for"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2010.361,"endTime":2015.081,"body":"their company, what would you recommend"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2010.361,"endTime":2015.081,"body":"is the way to start integrating this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2015.091,"endTime":2017.371,"body":"into their software delivery workflow?"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2017.97,"endTime":2021.46,"body":"So the, the way what we"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2017.97,"endTime":2021.46,"body":"typically do is, I mean, you are always,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2021.54,"endTime":2025.633,"body":"working pain driven, where you say,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2021.54,"endTime":2025.633,"body":"okay, I probably have a pain in this"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2025.903,"endTime":2030.393,"body":"process here, like bank account opening,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2025.903,"endTime":2030.393,"body":"if we keep the example or whatever."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2030.833,"endTime":2035.412,"body":"And you have to do something there"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2030.833,"endTime":2035.412,"body":"because compliance is a good example."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2035.412,"endTime":2038.312,"body":"So we had, for example, before"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2035.412,"endTime":2038.312,"body":"Russia, so there were a lot of"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2038.312,"endTime":2039.664,"body":"changes in compliance regulations."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2040.082,"endTime":2043.707,"body":"Um, you need to implement"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2040.082,"endTime":2043.707,"body":"them quickly or, T plus one"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2043.707,"endTime":2045.097,"body":"currently is also an initiative."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2045.107,"endTime":2047.437,"body":"You have to settle, trades quicker."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2048.022,"endTime":2049.232,"body":"So you have to do something."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2049.362,"endTime":2052.102,"body":"there's an active pane and"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2049.362,"endTime":2052.102,"body":"that are good projects because"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2052.112,"endTime":2053.212,"body":"then you can solve something."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2053.232,"endTime":2058.292,"body":"And instead of them trying to, implement"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2053.232,"endTime":2058.292,"body":"that within the spaghetti, we extract"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2058.292,"endTime":2063.339,"body":"the process from it, orchestrate that,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2058.292,"endTime":2063.339,"body":"try to keep, I would say as much systems"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2063.339,"endTime":2065.209,"body":"as possible untouched in the first step."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2066.074,"endTime":2069.644,"body":"But very often you have to cut"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2066.074,"endTime":2069.644,"body":"ends off hardwired integrations"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2069.644,"endTime":2070.834,"body":"between them under the hood."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2070.834,"endTime":2074.014,"body":"So it's not always super easy,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2070.834,"endTime":2074.014,"body":"but then you start extracting it,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2074.334,"endTime":2077.794,"body":"running it, and then you keep going."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2077.794,"endTime":2084.044,"body":"And the more you do there, the more"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2077.794,"endTime":2084.044,"body":"you transform the whole architecture"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2084.044,"endTime":2087.474,"body":"towards being more, More business"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2084.044,"endTime":2087.474,"body":"capability and process driven."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2088.184,"endTime":2092.214,"body":"And technology wise, I would say"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2088.184,"endTime":2092.214,"body":"it's, that's the easier part then."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2092.794,"endTime":2095.304,"body":"That means you have to"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2092.794,"endTime":2095.304,"body":"settle for a platform."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2095.634,"endTime":2099.694,"body":"you probably have to implement your"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2095.634,"endTime":2099.694,"body":"first process depending on what that is."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2099.933,"endTime":2104.423,"body":"You might have to, use existing connectors"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2099.933,"endTime":2104.423,"body":"or write a bit of integration code,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2104.423,"endTime":2108.883,"body":"writing some test cases, deployed like"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2104.423,"endTime":2108.883,"body":"you did before, probably, install a"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2109.883,"endTime":2111.573,"body":"cross orchestration platform beforehand."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2111.783,"endTime":2114.093,"body":"So that's typically not"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2111.783,"endTime":2114.093,"body":"the big showstopper."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2114.99,"endTime":2117.49,"body":"would you almost say"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2114.99,"endTime":2117.49,"body":"that it's like, like as a first step,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2117.49,"endTime":2119.43,"body":"like pain points that have a lot of Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2119.45,"endTime":2131.42,"body":"If the problem is more about connecting"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2119.45,"endTime":2131.42,"body":"multiple services or people or teams"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2131.5,"endTime":2135.98,"body":"versus like trying to solve like a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2131.5,"endTime":2135.98,"body":"discrete challenge, do you think that's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2135.98,"endTime":2137.62,"body":"like a good way to break it down too?"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2138.034,"endTime":2141.074,"body":"I would say so,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2138.034,"endTime":2141.074,"body":"yeah, because typically if you"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2141.074,"endTime":2144.944,"body":"look at end to end processes, they"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2141.074,"endTime":2144.944,"body":"touch on different systems and"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2144.944,"endTime":2146.454,"body":"different parts of the organizations."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2147.02,"endTime":2150.07,"body":"That makes them complex and that's"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2147.02,"endTime":2150.07,"body":"where cross orchestration can help."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2150.52,"endTime":2154.7,"body":"We also see it applied sometimes,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2150.52,"endTime":2154.7,"body":"layer B below that, which we"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2154.7,"endTime":2156.52,"body":"call integration flows typically."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2156.55,"endTime":2160.97,"body":"So you probably just want to do for"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2156.55,"endTime":2160.97,"body":"one task, you need to talk to whatever"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2160.98,"endTime":2164.3,"body":"three microservices in the right"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2160.98,"endTime":2164.3,"body":"sequence because they generate an ID."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2164.3,"endTime":2166.53,"body":"I need that for generating"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2164.3,"endTime":2166.53,"body":"that document, whatever."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2166.88,"endTime":2169.12,"body":"of course not that transformational."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2169.63,"endTime":2173.23,"body":"pretty hard to tell a"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2169.63,"endTime":2173.23,"body":"value story based on that."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2173.24,"endTime":2177.38,"body":"So, it might be a good start and"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2173.24,"endTime":2177.38,"body":"might also be a good, proof that"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2177.44,"endTime":2181.3,"body":"technology works and then it can"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2177.44,"endTime":2181.3,"body":"master the technology in a way and"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2181.35,"endTime":2184.34,"body":"understand what it takes, like skills"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2181.35,"endTime":2184.34,"body":"and roles and so on and so forth."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2184.83,"endTime":2188.9,"body":"But, overall I would focus more on"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2184.83,"endTime":2188.9,"body":"these, bigger end to end processes,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2188.9,"endTime":2190.7,"body":"yeah, touching on a lot of systems and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2190.926,"endTime":2191.326,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2192.176,"endTime":2196.606,"body":"So we've already talked about a little"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2192.176,"endTime":2196.606,"body":"bit about how, developer perceptions can"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2196.616,"endTime":2200.986,"body":"be a challenge for some organizations"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2196.616,"endTime":2200.986,"body":"looking to adopt these tools."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2201.046,"endTime":2205.556,"body":"So what are some other, initial challenges"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2201.046,"endTime":2205.556,"body":"that a software engineering leader might"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2205.556,"endTime":2209.216,"body":"face when they start integrating these"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2205.556,"endTime":2209.216,"body":"low code solutions into their workflows."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2209.915,"endTime":2211.835,"body":"I would say the"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2209.915,"endTime":2211.835,"body":"perception thing is the biggest."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2212.515,"endTime":2218.005,"body":"It's like, if people don't want to"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2212.515,"endTime":2218.005,"body":"use it, it's always hard to get it in."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2218.005,"endTime":2223.975,"body":"So, you have to make people understand"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2218.005,"endTime":2223.975,"body":"what it's really like, and that"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2223.975,"endTime":2225.935,"body":"might even differ from tool to tool."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2226.175,"endTime":2228.525,"body":"So, I would go in a POC mode."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2228.735,"endTime":2231.315,"body":"doing kind of a proof,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2228.735,"endTime":2231.315,"body":"doing a small project."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2231.605,"endTime":2233.805,"body":"Same happens, by the way,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2231.605,"endTime":2233.805,"body":"also to the business side."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2233.805,"endTime":2237.965,"body":"Sometimes they have very, very unrealistic"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2233.805,"endTime":2237.965,"body":"expectations because it's local."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2237.965,"endTime":2238.525,"body":"It's so easy."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2238.535,"endTime":2239.565,"body":"It should be super fast."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2240.065,"endTime":2243.475,"body":"for me, that's, um, that's"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2240.065,"endTime":2243.475,"body":"the biggest showstopper."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2243.545,"endTime":2248.785,"body":"And the other one, probably, we touched on"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2243.545,"endTime":2248.785,"body":"that in the beginning is that the market"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2248.785,"endTime":2251.475,"body":"is also, Not super easy to understand."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2251.485,"endTime":2254.105,"body":"So there are a lot of different"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2251.485,"endTime":2254.105,"body":"tools, different categories,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2254.485,"endTime":2256.375,"body":"markets are always shifting."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2256.695,"endTime":2262.015,"body":"so it's like evaluating the right"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2256.695,"endTime":2262.015,"body":"tool on the one hand and sketching"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2262.015,"endTime":2266.105,"body":"your architecture you want to"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2262.015,"endTime":2266.105,"body":"get to is not always super easy."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2266.105,"endTime":2268.925,"body":"I would say that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2269.341,"endTime":2271.801,"body":"Yeah, probably makes"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2269.341,"endTime":2271.801,"body":"education and training like pretty"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2271.801,"endTime":2273.581,"body":"critical then as a part of this."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2273.671,"endTime":2275.461,"body":"I would"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2273.671,"endTime":2275.461,"body":"differentiate two phases there."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2275.461,"endTime":2277.821,"body":"The first is like really"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2275.461,"endTime":2277.821,"body":"understanding where you want"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2277.821,"endTime":2279.261,"body":"to get to as an organization."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2279.261,"endTime":2280.321,"body":"Very often these are."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2280.626,"endTime":2283.113,"body":"where you have senior architect, involved."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2283.173,"endTime":2286.143,"body":"And that's the, I think the"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2283.173,"endTime":2286.143,"body":"harder part, understanding which"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2286.163,"endTime":2287.343,"body":"kind of tool we want to use."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2287.353,"endTime":2288.353,"body":"How do we want to use that?"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2288.353,"endTime":2291.113,"body":"How do we use that here"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2288.353,"endTime":2291.113,"body":"at our organization?"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2291.383,"endTime":2294.863,"body":"And then there's the second part where"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2291.383,"endTime":2294.863,"body":"you probably want to get that into"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2294.863,"endTime":2297.323,"body":"the field more and use that more."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2297.343,"endTime":2299.573,"body":"And that's where training comes in a lot."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2300.083,"endTime":2303.833,"body":"but that's probably the easier part"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2300.083,"endTime":2303.833,"body":"because then you can lean on material the"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2303.833,"endTime":2306.165,"body":"vendor has, But still still a challenge."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2306.165,"endTime":2306.815,"body":"Yes, of course."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2307.809,"endTime":2309.719,"body":"one of the challenges"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2307.809,"endTime":2309.719,"body":"with this is make sure you hire."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2309.979,"endTime":2313.119,"body":"the right people to work in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2309.979,"endTime":2313.119,"body":"this type of environment."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2313.129,"endTime":2319.442,"body":"So, how does introducing low code"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2313.129,"endTime":2319.442,"body":"into an organization, like change"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2319.502,"endTime":2321.362,"body":"the roles and responsibilities?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2321.372,"endTime":2325.852,"body":"Like, does it require different skill sets"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2321.372,"endTime":2325.852,"body":"or is it just simply more about rethinking"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2326.142,"endTime":2328.052,"body":"workflows with existing skill sets?"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2328.971,"endTime":2332.691,"body":"I would say it's not"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2328.971,"endTime":2332.691,"body":"necessarily completely new roles."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2332.741,"endTime":2337.845,"body":"that's why, for example, we are so"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2332.741,"endTime":2337.845,"body":"behind that developer friendly approach"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2337.845,"endTime":2340.305,"body":"that open architecture is a every year."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2340.945,"endTime":2344.895,"body":"Normal developer should be able to use"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2340.945,"endTime":2344.895,"body":"that, probably learn a bit of BPMN,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2345.305,"endTime":2350.085,"body":"probably learn certain APIs, but then"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2345.305,"endTime":2350.085,"body":"you can implement a workflow process."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2350.575,"endTime":2353.545,"body":"so that doesn't necessarily"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2350.575,"endTime":2353.545,"body":"require new skills."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2354.205,"endTime":2358.735,"body":"at the same time, one role that gets"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2354.205,"endTime":2358.735,"body":"much more crucial in such a setting"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2358.735,"endTime":2362.815,"body":"as the whole, business analysis is"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2358.735,"endTime":2362.815,"body":"probably that's  the best term for it."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2363.105,"endTime":2368.065,"body":"you have to have somebody who really,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2363.105,"endTime":2368.065,"body":"understands the process or gets the"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2368.085,"endTime":2372.893,"body":"understanding from various people"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2368.085,"endTime":2372.893,"body":"and distills proper process model"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2372.903,"endTime":2375.073,"body":"from it that is executable later on."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2375.753,"endTime":2380.113,"body":"And that's not an easy task because"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2375.753,"endTime":2380.113,"body":"you have to really sort it out."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2380.453,"endTime":2381.673,"body":"You really understand it."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2381.673,"endTime":2383.123,"body":"You have to talk to a lot of people."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2383.133,"endTime":2387.233,"body":"You still have to be very correct"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2383.133,"endTime":2387.233,"body":"about expressing it and probably"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2387.233,"endTime":2388.973,"body":"look into, into data flow of things."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2388.973,"endTime":2390.843,"body":"Like where does that data come from?"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2390.893,"endTime":2393.283,"body":"What data do I need in"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2390.893,"endTime":2393.283,"body":"order to call that system?"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2393.303,"endTime":2394.673,"body":"And how do I know that?"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2395.243,"endTime":2396.663,"body":"so that's not easy."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2397.423,"endTime":2402.083,"body":"And honestly, we see very different roles"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2397.423,"endTime":2402.083,"body":"filling that in, in customer projects."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2402.103,"endTime":2403.373,"body":"Sometimes developers do that."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2403.893,"endTime":2406.473,"body":"Sometimes we have separate"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2403.893,"endTime":2406.473,"body":"business analysts."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2406.483,"endTime":2409.193,"body":"Sometimes it's kind of a"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2406.483,"endTime":2409.193,"body":"collaborative exercise."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2409.953,"endTime":2414.983,"body":"but my point is, which I'm trying to"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2409.953,"endTime":2414.983,"body":"make here is that you have to do that"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2414.983,"endTime":2418.323,"body":"anyway, even if you do it like in a"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2414.983,"endTime":2418.323,"body":"traditional programming setting, you"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2418.323,"endTime":2419.873,"body":"have to understand the requirements."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2420.133,"endTime":2425.963,"body":"Just then very often it's, it's hidden"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2420.133,"endTime":2425.963,"body":"in a ton of requirements documents and"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2425.963,"endTime":2430.303,"body":"nobody, nobody, What we really see is"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2425.963,"endTime":2430.303,"body":"that it's not consistent and the process"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2430.303,"endTime":2434.217,"body":"forces you to get it on a consistent"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2430.303,"endTime":2434.217,"body":"level and to sort out certain problems"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2434.813,"endTime":2437.043,"body":"very early on, in the whole process."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2437.217,"endTime":2443.373,"body":"And we see regularly that this takes"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2437.217,"endTime":2443.373,"body":"a little bit of more time in a, in"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2443.373,"endTime":2445.223,"body":"a, in a early stage of the product."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2445.463,"endTime":2448.783,"body":"project, but it always pays"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2445.463,"endTime":2448.783,"body":"off in the end, because you."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2449.823,"endTime":2452.983,"body":"You get where you want to get and you"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2449.823,"endTime":2452.983,"body":"solve certain problems on a level when"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2452.983,"endTime":2454.893,"body":"you not even have written code yet."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2455.043,"endTime":2456.883,"body":"but it's not super simple, honestly."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2456.923,"endTime":2459.203,"body":"so I see a lot of people"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2456.923,"endTime":2459.203,"body":"struggling with that,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2459.243,"endTime":2463.863,"body":"It's more like, brain capacity to"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2459.243,"endTime":2463.863,"body":"really dive into how the process"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2463.863,"endTime":2467.213,"body":"should work, talk to all the business"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2463.863,"endTime":2467.213,"body":"stakeholders, understand certain things"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2467.233,"endTime":2468.953,"body":"and drive a proper process from that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2469.599,"endTime":2472.269,"body":"So I've got one"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2469.599,"endTime":2472.269,"body":"more question for you, and I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2472.269,"endTime":2477.439,"body":"it's one that comes up whenever"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2472.269,"endTime":2477.439,"body":"someone is evaluating a tool like this,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2477.529,"endTime":2481.199,"body":"particularly people from engineering"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2477.529,"endTime":2481.199,"body":"backgrounds, you know, they want to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2481.199,"endTime":2486.609,"body":"know, like, is this going to impact the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2481.199,"endTime":2486.609,"body":"quality of the things that we produce?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2486.643,"endTime":2488.083,"body":"Is it going to be secure?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2488.488,"endTime":2491.285,"body":"is it going to comply with all of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2488.488,"endTime":2491.285,"body":"the things that we're required to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2491.285,"endTime":2495.785,"body":"comply with, like very standard set"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2491.285,"endTime":2495.785,"body":"of, of like, can we actually trust"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2495.785,"endTime":2497.885,"body":"that this is going to perform for us?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2497.935,"endTime":2500.655,"body":"And, you know, conventional software"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2497.935,"endTime":2500.655,"body":"engineering, like we've built all"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2500.655,"endTime":2504.775,"body":"these tools that help us validate"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2500.655,"endTime":2504.775,"body":"that, like, CICD services, static"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2504.775,"endTime":2506.965,"body":"analysis, you know, the list goes on."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2507.385,"endTime":2511.005,"body":"So if, when you're adopting low code,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2507.385,"endTime":2511.005,"body":"is it just a matter of applying like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2511.015,"endTime":2515.305,"body":"those tools to ensure that you're,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2511.015,"endTime":2515.305,"body":"Using these local tools in a safe"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2515.305,"endTime":2519.625,"body":"way, or is there more to, ensuring"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2515.305,"endTime":2519.625,"body":"you're maintaining quality standards?"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2520.069,"endTime":2521.729,"body":"I would"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2520.069,"endTime":2521.729,"body":"answer twofold actually."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2521.729,"endTime":2525.969,"body":"the first part of the answer"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2521.729,"endTime":2525.969,"body":"is yes, you should simply, use"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2525.979,"endTime":2527.579,"body":"the tools you already know."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2527.689,"endTime":2530.859,"body":"writing test cases is something"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2527.689,"endTime":2530.859,"body":"you should keep doing."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2531.254,"endTime":2533.944,"body":"just because it's low code doesn't"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2531.254,"endTime":2533.944,"body":"mean you should not test it."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2534.394,"endTime":2536.764,"body":"so yes, you should do all of those things."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2536.784,"endTime":2540.461,"body":"And, um, depending on what that is,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2536.784,"endTime":2540.461,"body":"especially if you look at, security, for"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2540.461,"endTime":2545.031,"body":"example, that's a can of worms, which is"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2540.461,"endTime":2545.031,"body":"not always, course, super simple, um, to"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2545.031,"endTime":2549.881,"body":"look in like which data is going into the"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2545.031,"endTime":2549.881,"body":"process, which data doesn't, does the,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2549.881,"endTime":2554.488,"body":"like Process platform, is that using,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2549.881,"endTime":2554.488,"body":"is that you SaaS, for example, then I"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2554.528,"endTime":2558.942,"body":"might have to look into the vendor, what"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2554.528,"endTime":2558.942,"body":"they provide, or do I run that myself?"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2559.058,"endTime":2562.458,"body":"And so there are questions, of"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2559.058,"endTime":2562.458,"body":"course, that need to be answered."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2562.868,"endTime":2568.708,"body":"Most customers, we have to do that"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2562.868,"endTime":2568.708,"body":"centrally once for the whole organization."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2568.708,"endTime":2571.008,"body":"So there's a economy of scale thing."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2571.008,"endTime":2574.718,"body":"So, as soon as you have, Sorted"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2571.008,"endTime":2574.718,"body":"that out once, it's working"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2574.718,"endTime":2575.918,"body":"for the whole organization."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2576.528,"endTime":2580.708,"body":"but that's kind of the normal"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2576.528,"endTime":2580.708,"body":"problem you would have anyway."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2580.888,"endTime":2584.078,"body":"I mean, if you're hard coded,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2580.888,"endTime":2584.078,"body":"again, it doesn't win that much."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2584.088,"endTime":2586.388,"body":"You still have to think of"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2584.088,"endTime":2586.388,"body":"where does the data live?"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2586.498,"endTime":2588.668,"body":"And, is that secure"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2586.498,"endTime":2588.668,"body":"and, so on and so forth."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2589.058,"endTime":2589.998,"body":"Do I write tests?"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2590.296,"endTime":2594.706,"body":"I would say, yes, the typical, typical"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2590.296,"endTime":2594.706,"body":"tools at play at, and the other part"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2594.706,"endTime":2599.066,"body":"of the answer is, and that's probably"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2594.706,"endTime":2599.066,"body":"what low code triggers sometimes is"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2599.106,"endTime":2606.186,"body":"that I find it also important to note"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2599.106,"endTime":2606.186,"body":"or to acknowledge that not all processes"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2606.836,"endTime":2611.596,"body":"require the same level of, quality There"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2606.836,"endTime":2611.596,"body":"are these high critical, high complex"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2611.626,"endTime":2614.016,"body":"processes at the core of the company that."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2614.331,"endTime":2616.541,"body":"require high quality standards."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2616.571,"endTime":2616.951,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2617.261,"endTime":2620.061,"body":"But then there are a long"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2617.261,"endTime":2620.061,"body":"tail of very simple processes,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2620.911,"endTime":2622.131,"body":"which might not need that."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2622.141,"endTime":2625.551,"body":"And then probably it's, it's, it's"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2622.141,"endTime":2625.551,"body":"also okay to run without a test case."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2625.551,"endTime":2628.481,"body":"For example, the important thing is"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2625.551,"endTime":2628.481,"body":"to make a very conscious decision"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2629.271,"endTime":2634.121,"body":"and What we see with our customers at"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2629.271,"endTime":2634.121,"body":"the moment is that if you, if you can"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2634.341,"endTime":2640.201,"body":"establish the same, I'd say the same"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2634.341,"endTime":2640.201,"body":"platform for both use cases, you can"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2640.231,"endTime":2645.441,"body":"easily, grow into, let's say, also more"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2640.231,"endTime":2645.441,"body":"complex use cases from the one side."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2645.441,"endTime":2649.251,"body":"So you probably start with a very"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2645.441,"endTime":2649.251,"body":"simple process where you say,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2649.251,"endTime":2650.631,"body":"Oh, we don't need any testing."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2650.631,"endTime":2654.461,"body":"And then you see that you add"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2650.631,"endTime":2654.461,"body":"certain things, or it gets relevant"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2654.471,"endTime":2657.371,"body":"for compliance or whatever,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2654.471,"endTime":2657.371,"body":"then you can start doing that."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2657.601,"endTime":2660.981,"body":"Because it's not a completely"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2657.601,"endTime":2660.981,"body":"different technology, which probably"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2660.981,"endTime":2664.621,"body":"doesn't work if you use a very,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2660.981,"endTime":2664.621,"body":"very low code, low code only tool."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2665.431,"endTime":2668.981,"body":"so yeah, where I'm trying to get at is"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2665.431,"endTime":2668.981,"body":"there is this range of use cases again,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2668.981,"endTime":2672.581,"body":"and you have to understand where this use"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2668.981,"endTime":2672.581,"body":"case you want to implement sit and then"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2672.581,"endTime":2674.211,"body":"decide on the, the right approach of that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2674.81,"endTime":2676.22,"body":"I want to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2674.81,"endTime":2676.22,"body":"be respectful of your time."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2676.22,"endTime":2678.94,"body":"So thank you so much for joining me today."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2678.94,"endTime":2681.59,"body":"Bernd It's been wonderful"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2678.94,"endTime":2681.59,"body":"to have you on the show."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2681.95,"endTime":2685.1,"body":"where can our audience keep up with"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2681.95,"endTime":2685.1,"body":"you if they want to follow your work?"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2685.544,"endTime":2688.284,"body":"usual places you"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2685.544,"endTime":2688.284,"body":"can of course find me on LinkedIn,"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2688.334,"endTime":2689.914,"body":"can connect to me on LinkedIn."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2689.934,"endTime":2691.534,"body":"Always happy to discuss certain things."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2691.88,"endTime":2694.69,"body":"the Camunda website might be a"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2691.88,"endTime":2694.69,"body":"good place also to get started."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2694.72,"endTime":2696.34,"body":"We have a big community there as well."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2696.34,"endTime":2697.45,"body":"We have get started guides."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2697.49,"endTime":2700.05,"body":"We have an on conference, the Camundacon."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2700.275,"endTime":2703.665,"body":"Coming to New York probably"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2700.275,"endTime":2703.665,"body":"before this is, aired."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2703.815,"endTime":2706.645,"body":"So the next one will be in"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2703.815,"endTime":2706.645,"body":"Europe and Amsterdam in May."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2706.675,"endTime":2707.675,"body":"a lot of local events."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2708.305,"endTime":2711.735,"body":"I'm a hundred percent sure you will"},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2708.305,"endTime":2711.735,"body":"be able to find me on the internet."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2712.656,"endTime":2713.146,"body":"Wonderful."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2714.756,"endTime":2715.926,"body":"Thanks for listening, everyone."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2716.216,"endTime":2717.006,"body":"We'll see you next week."},{"speaker":"Bernd Ruecker","startTime":2717.555,"endTime":2718.215,"body":"Thanks for having me."}]}