{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":0.0,"endTime":3.17,"body":"Hey, Andrew, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":0.0,"endTime":3.17,"body":"heard you have been doing some really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3.17,"endTime":5.499,"body":"cool experiments with generative AI."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":5.499,"endTime":7.752,"body":"Why don't you tell our audience"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":5.499,"endTime":7.752,"body":"about what you're up to?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":8.276,"endTime":11.216,"body":"I have been in the lab"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":8.276,"endTime":11.216,"body":"this week, full confession, working on"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":11.216,"endTime":15.636,"body":"the developer experience for LinearB's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":11.216,"endTime":15.636,"body":"Git stream, where we're using the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":15.636,"endTime":19.186,"body":"power of context with generative"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":15.636,"endTime":19.186,"body":"AI in the code review process."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":19.606,"endTime":22.536,"body":"I imagined the process"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":19.606,"endTime":22.536,"body":"a bit like a restaurant."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":22.856,"endTime":23.616,"body":"Bear with me."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":24.036,"endTime":28.956,"body":"The model is the chef, and it's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":24.036,"endTime":28.956,"body":"skilled and trained and capable of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":28.956,"endTime":32.976,"body":"preparing an incredible variety of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":28.956,"endTime":32.976,"body":"things, depending on what you give it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":33.326,"endTime":36.256,"body":"And the data, that's like the ingredients."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":36.636,"endTime":39.566,"body":"Without good ingredients, even"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":36.636,"endTime":39.566,"body":"the best chef will struggle."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":40.151,"endTime":42.611,"body":"And when the ingredients are"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":40.151,"endTime":42.611,"body":"local as opposed to store"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":42.611,"endTime":43.861,"body":"bought, they're often better."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":44.491,"endTime":48.171,"body":"But the context is the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":44.491,"endTime":48.171,"body":"order from the customer."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":48.551,"endTime":50.001,"body":"And the customer is everything."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":50.511,"endTime":54.311,"body":"They tell the chef what to prepare,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":50.511,"endTime":54.311,"body":"how to season it, if they have"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":54.311,"endTime":57.031,"body":"any allergies, whether to mix"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":54.311,"endTime":57.031,"body":"it in or put it on the side."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":57.461,"endTime":61.741,"body":"And no matter how great the chef"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":57.461,"endTime":61.741,"body":"is, or the ingredients are, if the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":61.741,"endTime":66.351,"body":"order is unclear or missing, the dish"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":61.741,"endTime":66.351,"body":"doesn't meet your expectations, and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":66.351,"endTime":67.361,"body":"you're not going to be happy."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":67.65,"endTime":70.08,"body":"I think I'm starting"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":67.65,"endTime":70.08,"body":"to see where you're going with this."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":70.611,"endTime":73.541,"body":"So, at LinearB,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":70.611,"endTime":73.541,"body":"we're focusing on that power of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":73.541,"endTime":76.931,"body":"the context to give the customer"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":73.541,"endTime":76.931,"body":"exactly what they ordered."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":77.381,"endTime":80.411,"body":"Because no one cares if your chef's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":77.381,"endTime":80.411,"body":"from an elite academy, or if your"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":80.611,"endTime":84.941,"body":"ingredients are fully organic, if you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":80.611,"endTime":84.941,"body":"order a steak and you get a pizza."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":86.001,"endTime":89.541,"body":"To that end, LinearB released the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":86.001,"endTime":89.541,"body":"AI Starter Kit for PR reviews."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":89.661,"endTime":93.561,"body":"It's a collection of workflow automations"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":89.661,"endTime":93.561,"body":"that make it easy for engineering"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":93.561,"endTime":98.181,"body":"teams to start experimenting now with"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":93.561,"endTime":98.181,"body":"the power of context in their pull"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":98.181,"endTime":102.827,"body":"reviews, It brings the power of context"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":98.181,"endTime":102.827,"body":"to your AI models and services along"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":102.827,"endTime":104.767,"body":"with native GitStream capabilities."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":105.454,"endTime":105.704,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":105.704,"endTime":109.114,"body":"So this is really cool because, we're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":105.704,"endTime":109.114,"body":"seeing so many products out there that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":109.114,"endTime":110.894,"body":"are emerging to tackle this space."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":111.789,"endTime":115.219,"body":"There's definitely a lot of confusion"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":111.789,"endTime":115.219,"body":"about like what works versus what doesn't."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":115.649,"endTime":118.359,"body":"and I really liked the focus we've"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":115.649,"endTime":118.359,"body":"been taking with this so far with this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":118.359,"endTime":120.969,"body":"experiment is, is on responsible adoption."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":120.969,"endTime":124.766,"body":"So if you're just getting started"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":120.969,"endTime":124.766,"body":"with AI, like you've maybe just bought"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":124.766,"endTime":128.956,"body":"one or two tools and you have an API"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":124.766,"endTime":128.956,"body":"that your developers can query, or if"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":128.996,"endTime":131.706,"body":"you're somebody who's actually already"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":128.996,"endTime":131.706,"body":"purchased a bunch of AI tools and is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":131.786,"endTime":136.381,"body":"trying to roll them out responsibly"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":131.786,"endTime":136.381,"body":"and securely and effectively, we're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":136.391,"endTime":140.081,"body":"building these tools that are, that are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":136.391,"endTime":140.081,"body":"here to help you mature that process."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":140.501,"endTime":142.791,"body":"So where can our audience"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":140.501,"endTime":142.791,"body":"get their hands on this?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":143.752,"endTime":146.022,"body":"Well, anywhere that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":143.752,"endTime":146.022,"body":"Google searches or search engine"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":146.062,"endTime":148.592,"body":"results are served is probably"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":146.062,"endTime":148.592,"body":"going to point you in the right way."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":148.992,"endTime":151.182,"body":"the GitStream documentation is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":148.992,"endTime":151.182,"body":"going to have the best starting"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":151.182,"endTime":152.982,"body":"places for getting started with Git."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":153.282,"endTime":157.082,"body":"The AI Starter Kit, as well as the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":153.282,"endTime":157.082,"body":"other features available on GitStream."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":157.532,"endTime":160.392,"body":"But if you want someone to walk"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":157.532,"endTime":160.392,"body":"you through a more in depth"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":160.432,"endTime":163.952,"body":"guide or walkthrough based upon"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":160.432,"endTime":163.952,"body":"your own needs, definitely reach"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":163.952,"endTime":165.422,"body":"out on the LinearB website."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":165.632,"endTime":168.802,"body":"It's really easy to book a demo"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":165.632,"endTime":168.802,"body":"with an expert and get your hands"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":168.802,"endTime":171.772,"body":"on some great ideas for how to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":168.802,"endTime":171.772,"body":"take this back to your team."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":172.272,"endTime":174.812,"body":"And we'll put the links for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":172.272,"endTime":174.812,"body":"this in the show notes as well."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":174.935,"endTime":175.695,"body":"Yeah, awesome."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":175.918,"endTime":177.915,"body":"So Ben, what"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":175.918,"endTime":177.915,"body":"have you been reading this week?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":178.584,"endTime":180.534,"body":"Last week"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":178.584,"endTime":180.534,"body":"we were talking about all these"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":180.534,"endTime":183.354,"body":"investments that are going into AI."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":183.644,"endTime":188.094,"body":"Of course, this was before DeepSeek"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":183.644,"endTime":188.094,"body":"completely upended the market."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":188.224,"endTime":190.784,"body":"but I am proud to say that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":188.224,"endTime":190.784,"body":"many of our predictions from"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":190.784,"endTime":193.154,"body":"then were relatively accurate."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":193.164,"endTime":195.324,"body":"You know, some might say we"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":193.164,"endTime":195.324,"body":"have some foresight here."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":195.944,"endTime":199.104,"body":"another story that has caught"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":195.944,"endTime":199.104,"body":"my attention for reasons that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":199.104,"endTime":200.444,"body":"we'll get into in a moment."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":200.814,"endTime":206.204,"body":"IBM is IBM, you know, a company that was"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":200.814,"endTime":206.204,"body":"has been around forever at this point,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":206.714,"endTime":209.724,"body":"very early to the AI space with Watson."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":210.084,"endTime":212.494,"body":"But a company that I think we've all"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":210.084,"endTime":212.494,"body":"kind of forgotten about for a while"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":212.534,"endTime":215.554,"body":"because it just hasn't been a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":212.534,"endTime":215.554,"body":"groundbreaking news other than maybe"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":215.554,"endTime":218.094,"body":"like them buying Red Hat and HashiCorp."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":218.694,"endTime":221.374,"body":"they're kind of Q4 earnings"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":218.694,"endTime":221.374,"body":"report just came out."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":221.434,"endTime":226.164,"body":"usually these are not interesting at"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":221.434,"endTime":226.164,"body":"all, but they showed some extremely"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":226.174,"endTime":230.044,"body":"bullish growth in one area in particular,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":226.174,"endTime":230.044,"body":"and that was their AI services."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":230.354,"endTime":236.784,"body":"So they announced 5 billion in total sales"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":230.354,"endTime":236.784,"body":"and 2 billion of that was in Q4 alone."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":236.784,"endTime":239.524,"body":"So a massive, massive"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":236.784,"endTime":239.524,"body":"quarter over quarter growth."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":239.874,"endTime":243.714,"body":"naturally there's a huge spike in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":239.874,"endTime":243.714,"body":"their stock price, you know, sort of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":243.714,"endTime":247.254,"body":"bucking the trends actually of this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":243.714,"endTime":247.254,"body":"week of, of many of the companies in AI."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":248.084,"endTime":250.724,"body":"But, and actually there's, there's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":248.084,"endTime":250.724,"body":"one finer detail that was like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":251.304,"endTime":253.754,"body":"hidden under, under all of this."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":253.754,"endTime":255.804,"body":"And that 80 percent of this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":253.754,"endTime":255.804,"body":"is actually consulting."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":255.864,"endTime":260.304,"body":"So, you know, only about 1"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":255.864,"endTime":260.304,"body":"billion was from, actual software."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":260.304,"endTime":263.024,"body":"So, you know, getting back to our"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":260.304,"endTime":263.024,"body":"opening there, where we're talking"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":263.024,"endTime":266.924,"body":"about experimenting with AI, like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":263.024,"endTime":266.924,"body":"you hire consultants when you're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":266.924,"endTime":269.444,"body":"not sure what you're doing and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":266.924,"endTime":269.444,"body":"you're experimenting, you know?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":269.444,"endTime":272.554,"body":"So I think that's actually a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":269.444,"endTime":272.554,"body":"very good indicator of where the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":272.554,"endTime":274.884,"body":"industry as a whole stands today."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":275.324,"endTime":278.774,"body":"the question I keep asking myself"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":275.324,"endTime":278.774,"body":"is, when is that going to change?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":278.774,"endTime":283.001,"body":"Like, when is software, like purchasing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":278.774,"endTime":283.001,"body":"software tools, when is that going to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":283.001,"endTime":286.531,"body":"become the main driver of AI adoption?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":286.911,"endTime":290.671,"body":"So, but we've got an upcoming"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":286.911,"endTime":290.671,"body":"guest from IBM, don't we, Andrew?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":291.632,"endTime":294.772,"body":"Yes, I'm very excited"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":291.632,"endTime":294.772,"body":"for our upcoming guests on the show."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":294.782,"endTime":300.132,"body":"We have Dr. Ashoori of WatsonX AI at"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":294.782,"endTime":300.132,"body":"IBM is coming on talking about how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":300.162,"endTime":304.712,"body":"engineering teams are making those first"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":300.162,"endTime":304.712,"body":"moves now to adopt AI practices and the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":304.712,"endTime":307.892,"body":"things they can do to be more effective"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":304.712,"endTime":307.892,"body":"in the future with those tools they"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":307.892,"endTime":312.902,"body":"pick up and getting a playbook like that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":307.892,"endTime":312.902,"body":"from an expert at IBM is invaluable."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":312.912,"endTime":316.182,"body":"Like you just said, so much of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":312.912,"endTime":316.182,"body":"their market value comes from"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":316.182,"endTime":318.932,"body":"providing insights and details"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":316.182,"endTime":318.932,"body":"on how people can implement this."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":318.942,"endTime":319.652,"body":"So imagine."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":319.937,"endTime":323.637,"body":"We got a bite of that for free here"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":319.937,"endTime":323.637,"body":"on Dev Interrupted for our listeners."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":323.637,"endTime":326.543,"body":"I'm really excited to share"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":323.637,"endTime":326.543,"body":"it, in an upcoming episode."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":327.051,"endTime":327.301,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":327.301,"endTime":327.671,"body":"Awesome."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":327.671,"endTime":329.941,"body":"You know, and it's, it's really,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":327.671,"endTime":329.941,"body":"I think, going to be an awesome"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":329.941,"endTime":332.831,"body":"story of how, legacy companies"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":329.941,"endTime":332.831,"body":"are reinventing themselves."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":332.831,"endTime":333.771,"body":"You know, everyone"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":334.091,"endTime":337.341,"body":"is facing this new reality"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":334.091,"endTime":337.341,"body":"of AI disrupting them."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":337.341,"endTime":340.751,"body":"Like, everyone has to be focused"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":337.341,"endTime":340.751,"body":"on how we're going to reinvent"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":340.751,"endTime":342.751,"body":"ourselves for, for this new era."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":342.821,"endTime":344.691,"body":"so let's talk about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":342.821,"endTime":344.691,"body":"some of that disruption."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":344.691,"endTime":348.141,"body":"I think you've got a new story that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":344.691,"endTime":348.141,"body":"you wanted to share that gets into"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":348.141,"endTime":349.614,"body":"some of the events of the last week."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":350.61,"endTime":352.56,"body":"I read a great"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":350.61,"endTime":352.56,"body":"article that kind of summed up"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":352.56,"endTime":354.15,"body":"some of the disruptions this week."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":354.4,"endTime":358.78,"body":"at the beginning of the week, deep seek"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":354.4,"endTime":358.78,"body":"droning chat, GPT in the app store."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":359.05,"endTime":364.75,"body":"Nvidia losing $593 billion in market"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":359.05,"endTime":364.75,"body":"value in a single day, which is a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":364.75,"endTime":366.88,"body":"record one day loss for any company."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":367.41,"endTime":369.9,"body":"And everyone, Google Jevons Paradox."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":369.9,"endTime":372.51,"body":"And Ben, were you among"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":369.9,"endTime":372.51,"body":"those Google searches?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":372.979,"endTime":376.869,"body":"no, I let my GPTs"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":372.979,"endTime":376.869,"body":"do my searching for me these days."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":376.869,"endTime":377.389,"body":"I don't, I don't"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":377.399,"endTime":378.599,"body":"need Google anymore."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":379.089,"endTime":379.589,"body":"A joke."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":379.589,"endTime":380.859,"body":"I actually did Google it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":380.859,"endTime":385.909,"body":"So I am definitely one of those millions"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":380.859,"endTime":385.909,"body":"of people who wanted to learn what it is."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":386.199,"endTime":389.619,"body":"And for anyone else out there who"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":386.199,"endTime":389.619,"body":"hasn't been, had been exposed to this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":389.619,"endTime":394.389,"body":"yet this week, the Jevons Paradox is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":389.619,"endTime":394.389,"body":"a paradox where, uh, it was observed"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":394.389,"endTime":399.929,"body":"in the late 1800s where the invention"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":394.389,"endTime":399.929,"body":"of, of a more efficient steam engine,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":400.199,"endTime":403.849,"body":"you know, some people thought that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":400.199,"endTime":403.849,"body":"meant that coal demand would plummet,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":403.859,"endTime":406.019,"body":"but the reverse was actually true."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":406.369,"endTime":411.139,"body":"So by making a more efficient steam"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":406.369,"endTime":411.139,"body":"engine, it enabled more people to afford"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":411.139,"endTime":415.799,"body":"the amount of coal that they needed to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":411.139,"endTime":415.799,"body":"run it, which increased demand for coal."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":415.799,"endTime":420.164,"body":"So, you know, and when you really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":415.799,"endTime":420.164,"body":"think about it, Chips are just rocks,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":420.434,"endTime":424.754,"body":"you know, like better efficiency is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":420.434,"endTime":424.754,"body":"going to drive more demand for rocks."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":424.764,"endTime":428.004,"body":"So I think companies like NVIDIA"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":424.764,"endTime":428.004,"body":"in particular will probably end"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":428.004,"endTime":429.824,"body":"up being fine through all of this."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":429.854,"endTime":433.284,"body":"But one thing in the article that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":429.854,"endTime":433.284,"body":"we're going to link to these in our"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":433.294,"endTime":437.787,"body":"sub stack newsletter and in, show"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":433.294,"endTime":437.787,"body":"notes, is it reinforced a theme we"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":437.787,"endTime":441.747,"body":"brought up last week, actually, on"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":437.787,"endTime":441.747,"body":"how there's a bit of an, an arms race"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":441.807,"endTime":446.186,"body":"emerging, As it relates to like this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":441.807,"endTime":446.186,"body":"artificial general intelligence that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":446.186,"endTime":449.797,"body":"everyone is pursuing and you know, the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":446.186,"endTime":449.797,"body":"companies that I would be concerned if"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":449.797,"endTime":454.047,"body":"I worked for them are definitely the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":449.797,"endTime":454.047,"body":"ones that are focused entirely on AI."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":454.547,"endTime":456.957,"body":"the question I'm asking is like,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":454.547,"endTime":456.957,"body":"will these events be a catalyst"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":456.957,"endTime":459.357,"body":"for VCs to pull back from AI?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":459.642,"endTime":463.902,"body":"To focus on more efficiency, or are they"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":459.642,"endTime":463.902,"body":"going to double down on quality to try"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":463.902,"endTime":465.842,"body":"to keep leapfrogging the competition?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":466.292,"endTime":470.122,"body":"another story that came out that I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":466.292,"endTime":470.122,"body":"was just thinking about that is maybe"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":470.122,"endTime":473.842,"body":"related to this is, you know, OpenAI"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":470.122,"endTime":473.842,"body":"just announced a new partnership with"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":473.842,"endTime":478.072,"body":"the U S national laboratories that is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":473.842,"endTime":478.072,"body":"specifically focused on cybersecurity"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":478.402,"endTime":479.662,"body":"for the U S federal government."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":479.662,"endTime":483.842,"body":"So like, we're already seeing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":479.662,"endTime":483.842,"body":"this idea of there being like real"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":483.842,"endTime":487.982,"body":"national security interests in,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":483.842,"endTime":487.982,"body":"Building this stuff and securing it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":488.572,"endTime":491.292,"body":"you know, and I think this also kind"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":488.572,"endTime":491.292,"body":"of highlights an issue that a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":491.292,"endTime":493.952,"body":"these Chinese companies are going to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":491.292,"endTime":493.952,"body":"have is that, you know, they have to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":493.952,"endTime":498.632,"body":"adhere to their local laws and, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":493.952,"endTime":498.632,"body":"know, companies that really value their"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":498.732,"endTime":502.845,"body":"security and their privacy, and they"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":498.732,"endTime":502.845,"body":"don't want to hand over potentially"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":502.845,"endTime":505.305,"body":"competitive Intel to foreign agents."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":505.665,"endTime":510.008,"body":"it's a pretty risky situation to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":505.665,"endTime":510.008,"body":"try to go with, something like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":510.168,"endTime":511.858,"body":"DeepSeek or any of these other."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":512.118,"endTime":514.848,"body":"you know, I think there've been more"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":512.118,"endTime":514.848,"body":"companies now in the last week that have"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":514.858,"endTime":517.298,"body":"emerged from China with similar services."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":517.903,"endTime":520.473,"body":"And while that thread is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":517.903,"endTime":520.473,"body":"definitely there, you know, on the other"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":520.473,"endTime":524.583,"body":"hand, it also in the environment makes"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":520.473,"endTime":524.583,"body":"it even more difficult for engineering"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":524.583,"endTime":529.643,"body":"leaders to justify costly AI spend"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":524.583,"endTime":529.643,"body":"to maybe more traditional or Western"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":529.653,"endTime":534.053,"body":"model providers, especially justifying"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":529.653,"endTime":534.053,"body":"that to non technical executives who"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":534.053,"endTime":535.683,"body":"may not fully understand the risks."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":535.913,"endTime":538.643,"body":"They see the cheaper number and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":535.913,"endTime":538.643,"body":"they see the savings that they could"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":538.653,"endTime":541.703,"body":"be gaining while still innovating"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":538.653,"endTime":541.703,"body":"faster than their competitors."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":541.703,"endTime":542.893,"body":"And that's very appealing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":543.213,"endTime":546.958,"body":"So when a cheaper service is sitting right"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":543.213,"endTime":546.958,"body":"there, They are ready for use that really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":546.998,"endTime":550.508,"body":"kind of calls everything into question"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":546.998,"endTime":550.508,"body":"about how the strategy should play."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":550.848,"endTime":554.518,"body":"And while some industries and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":550.848,"endTime":554.518,"body":"organizations could never tolerate"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":554.568,"endTime":559.278,"body":"those risks for their IP, like you said,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":554.568,"endTime":559.278,"body":"handing over their information to, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":559.278,"endTime":563.598,"body":"know, like a foreign entity, At nearly"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":559.278,"endTime":563.598,"body":"every industry is experimenting with"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":563.628,"endTime":567.238,"body":"AI in some capacity and everyone's risk"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":563.628,"endTime":567.238,"body":"level is going to be very different."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":567.548,"endTime":570.168,"body":"And, you know, even Perplexity,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":567.548,"endTime":570.168,"body":"you just mentioned, you know,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":570.168,"endTime":572.298,"body":"doing your Google searches for you."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":572.348,"endTime":574.668,"body":"They even have a DeepSeek R1 mode now."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":574.858,"endTime":575.978,"body":"You can use it there."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":576.248,"endTime":580.598,"body":"And DeepSeek is also open source, so"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":576.248,"endTime":580.598,"body":"you could run that efficient model"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":580.598,"endTime":583.078,"body":"locally with those benchmark performance."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":583.334,"endTime":586.954,"body":"But of course, that does nothing about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":583.334,"endTime":586.954,"body":"addressing the censorship concerns"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":587.004,"endTime":590.814,"body":"related to the LLM, which also hit"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":587.004,"endTime":590.814,"body":"the news this week about people"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":590.814,"endTime":592.264,"body":"could get it to say and not say."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":592.264,"endTime":597.434,"body":"And all it really comes down to say"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":592.264,"endTime":597.434,"body":"is that for some businesses, it may"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":597.444,"endTime":601.494,"body":"make sense to pay or use a cheaper"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":597.444,"endTime":601.494,"body":"service if that means that you can"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":601.494,"endTime":606.564,"body":"scale faster and turn perhaps your AI"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":601.494,"endTime":606.564,"body":"wrapper into a fully fledged business"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":606.604,"endTime":608.434,"body":"with wings that can go vertical."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":610.038,"endTime":613.048,"body":"And our producer Adam,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":610.038,"endTime":613.048,"body":"he shared this really awesome article"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":613.048,"endTime":617.308,"body":"with us and he does not get enough"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":613.048,"endTime":617.308,"body":"credit on the show, which changes today."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":617.558,"endTime":618.858,"body":"Changes today, so thanks Adam."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":619.305,"endTime":624.125,"body":"But it was actually an interview from"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":619.305,"endTime":624.125,"body":"the CEO of DeepSeek a few months ago,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":624.125,"endTime":627.145,"body":"so before all this hype took off, where"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":624.125,"endTime":627.145,"body":"one of the things that really stood"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":627.145,"endTime":630.92,"body":"out to me is they were talking about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":627.145,"endTime":630.92,"body":"how You know, China in modern history"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":630.92,"endTime":634.87,"body":"has been more of like a one to 10"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":630.92,"endTime":634.87,"body":"culture when it comes to technology."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":634.87,"endTime":638.28,"body":"Like they take existing ideas"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":634.87,"endTime":638.28,"body":"and they, they 10X that idea."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":638.8,"endTime":642.62,"body":"whereas the Western society has been"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":638.8,"endTime":642.62,"body":"more of a leader in the zero to one."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":642.62,"endTime":647.54,"body":"So going from, you know, originating"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":642.62,"endTime":647.54,"body":"new ideas, and their CEO did really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":647.54,"endTime":653.28,"body":"seem invested in this notion of like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":647.54,"endTime":653.28,"body":"China becoming more, more innovative"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":653.29,"endTime":655.22,"body":"rather than, you know, copying."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":655.377,"endTime":656.447,"body":"Western counterparts."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":656.447,"endTime":659.527,"body":"So, and you know, with it, with it being"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":656.447,"endTime":659.527,"body":"open source, it'll be interesting to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":659.527,"endTime":663.117,"body":"see what American companies learn from"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":659.527,"endTime":663.117,"body":"this, because I think HuggingFace is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":663.137,"endTime":667.757,"body":"already running their models that has been"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":663.137,"endTime":667.757,"body":"trained on HuggingFace data at this point."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":667.757,"endTime":671.817,"body":"So yeah, I definitely think it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":667.757,"endTime":671.817,"body":"going to, to lead to more competition."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":672.208,"endTime":673.868,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":674.054,"endTime":676.594,"body":"sourcing AI, it's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":674.054,"endTime":676.594,"body":"only one part of the puzzle."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":676.861,"endTime":679.911,"body":"Another thing that was in the news,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":676.861,"endTime":679.911,"body":"going back to legacy companies,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":679.911,"endTime":683.638,"body":"traditional enterprises and how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":679.911,"endTime":683.638,"body":"they're adapting, Goldman Sachs,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":683.668,"endTime":688.148,"body":"they hired Daniel Marku from Amazon"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":683.668,"endTime":688.148,"body":"as its global head of artificial"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":688.148,"endTime":690.268,"body":"intelligence, engineering, and science."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":690.518,"endTime":691.358,"body":"And why does this matter?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":691.358,"endTime":692.248,"body":"What does this mean?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":692.498,"endTime":697.049,"body":"You know, a huge traditional, financial,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":692.498,"endTime":697.049,"body":"highly regulated company just poached"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":697.049,"endTime":701.183,"body":"a leading AI, Leader about, being"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":697.049,"endTime":701.183,"body":"able to implement these practices"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":701.183,"endTime":705.513,"body":"within their own company, because"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":701.183,"endTime":705.513,"body":"Goldman Sachs AI assistant has already"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":705.513,"endTime":709.153,"body":"rolled out to 10, 000 of its knowledge"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":705.513,"endTime":709.153,"body":"workers within its organizations."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":709.153,"endTime":711.243,"body":"That's a huge rollout at a big scale."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":711.483,"endTime":714.163,"body":"You know, I mentioned earlier,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":711.483,"endTime":714.163,"body":"all industries right now"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":714.183,"endTime":715.093,"body":"are experimenting with AI."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":715.703,"endTime":717.713,"body":"That means you get some really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":715.703,"endTime":717.713,"body":"big players in the space."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":717.993,"endTime":720.153,"body":"outside of maybe traditional"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":717.993,"endTime":720.153,"body":"tech world, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":720.593,"endTime":725.383,"body":"And the idea that they're going to roll"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":720.593,"endTime":725.383,"body":"this out to more of their knowledge"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":725.383,"endTime":729.003,"body":"workers and have it in all of their"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":725.383,"endTime":729.003,"body":"hands by the end of the year, they need"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":729.013,"endTime":730.653,"body":"somebody with that kind of expertise."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":730.693,"endTime":733.809,"body":"And I think there's a lot to learn"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":730.693,"endTime":733.809,"body":"from a traditional enterprise"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":733.839,"endTime":735.009,"body":"making a move like that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":735.468,"endTime":739.108,"body":"this scale, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":735.468,"endTime":739.108,"body":"the scale of AI adoption that we're seeing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":739.138,"endTime":743.058,"body":"in this story specifically is, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":739.138,"endTime":743.058,"body":"I think this is where things fundamentally"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":743.058,"endTime":745.988,"body":"start to change in how businesses operate."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":746.378,"endTime":749.798,"body":"We have like even these traditional"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":746.378,"endTime":749.798,"body":"companies who are making strategic"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":749.798,"endTime":753.398,"body":"hires to align themselves with"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":749.798,"endTime":753.398,"body":"all of this rapid AI development."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":753.398,"endTime":757.208,"body":"So new models every week, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":753.398,"endTime":757.208,"body":"really need to have somebody there"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":757.208,"endTime":761.348,"body":"who can be an expert at how to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":757.208,"endTime":761.348,"body":"implement that for your organization."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":761.688,"endTime":765.798,"body":"And, you know, I think everyone, every"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":761.688,"endTime":765.798,"body":"company should have people who are leading"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":765.798,"endTime":768.342,"body":"their internally initiatives like this."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":768.749,"endTime":769.309,"body":"I agree."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":769.329,"endTime":772.069,"body":"It's about identifying those"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":769.329,"endTime":772.069,"body":"opportunities now that will"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":772.069,"endTime":774.259,"body":"have a big impact for tomorrow."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":774.854,"endTime":779.604,"body":"And speaking of big impact, you know, last"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":774.854,"endTime":779.604,"body":"week, we had Luca Rossi of refactoring"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":779.644,"endTime":784.224,"body":"and Yishai Beeri of LinearB, and they"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":779.644,"endTime":784.224,"body":"sat down to discuss how engineering"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":784.224,"endTime":790.174,"body":"teams can go beyond academic frameworks"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":784.224,"endTime":790.174,"body":"to have impact based practices for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":790.174,"endTime":791.674,"body":"their engineering organizations."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":792.114,"endTime":796.514,"body":"And that survey was made possible by"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":792.114,"endTime":796.514,"body":"our listeners, the Dev Interrupted"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":796.514,"endTime":800.754,"body":"community, as well as the refactoring"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":796.514,"endTime":800.754,"body":"community for responding to our survey."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":800.754,"endTime":803.954,"body":"So thank you again for lending"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":800.754,"endTime":803.954,"body":"us your voice, your perspective."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":804.554,"endTime":807.934,"body":"It led to some really great insights"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":804.554,"endTime":807.934,"body":"that I don't want you to miss."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":808.184,"endTime":811.124,"body":"So after the break, we're going"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":808.184,"endTime":811.124,"body":"to bring Luca on the show to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":811.124,"endTime":813.064,"body":"tap into some of those insights."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":813.364,"endTime":815.884,"body":"And what we're going to do"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":813.364,"endTime":815.884,"body":"is go hunting for flywheels."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":815.914,"endTime":819.404,"body":"We're going to find those things that you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":815.914,"endTime":819.404,"body":"can take back to your engineering team"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":819.674,"endTime":821.724,"body":"to start building momentum for tomorrow."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":822.034,"endTime":822.404,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":822.514,"endTime":824.794,"body":"I was really excited to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":822.514,"endTime":824.794,"body":"record this interview."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":824.794,"endTime":826.184,"body":"So make sure you stick around."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":828.735,"endTime":832.265,"body":"Last week, we launched an audience"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":828.735,"endTime":832.265,"body":"survey to gather feedback on Dev"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":832.505,"endTime":836.565,"body":"Interrupted to make the show as great"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":832.505,"endTime":836.565,"body":"as we can for you, our listeners."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":836.808,"endTime":840.208,"body":"So far, we've received"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":836.808,"endTime":840.208,"body":"overwhelming feedback that we"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":840.208,"endTime":841.938,"body":"should pivot hard to AI content."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":842.178,"endTime":843.918,"body":"At least three people have told us this."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":845.193,"endTime":848.793,"body":"Almost completely convinced that this has"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":845.193,"endTime":848.793,"body":"to become an AI podcast at this point."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":849.153,"endTime":853.373,"body":"And, I've also heard that it basically"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":849.153,"endTime":853.373,"body":"guarantees you endless VC investments."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":853.373,"endTime":854.003,"body":"So we'll see."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":854.413,"endTime":858.033,"body":"if you don't want us to become"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":854.413,"endTime":858.033,"body":"an AI podcast, or maybe if you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":858.033,"endTime":861.453,"body":"do now is your last chance to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":858.033,"endTime":861.453,"body":"give us that feedback because the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":861.453,"endTime":863.223,"body":"survey will be closing very soon."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":863.773,"endTime":865.633,"body":"Andrew, what else do you have"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":863.773,"endTime":865.633,"body":"to tell them about this survey?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":866.679,"endTime":869.339,"body":"Well, you know, Ben"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":866.679,"endTime":869.339,"body":"is mostly joking, but we are very"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":869.349,"endTime":871.029,"body":"serious that we want your feedback."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":871.039,"endTime":872.049,"body":"We want to hear from you."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":872.769,"endTime":875.249,"body":"And I want to take this moment"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":872.769,"endTime":875.249,"body":"to highlight you, the listener,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":875.269,"endTime":877.009,"body":"for joining us on this journey."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":877.249,"endTime":880.099,"body":"Your opinions on topics like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":877.249,"endTime":880.099,"body":"developer productivity and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":880.099,"endTime":881.714,"body":"experience, they really matter to us."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":882.284,"endTime":885.584,"body":"And so joined by you, we're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":882.284,"endTime":885.584,"body":"rethinking every week what it means"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":885.584,"endTime":889.764,"body":"to build engineering teams, tackle"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":885.584,"endTime":889.764,"body":"software challenges, and lead in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":889.764,"endTime":891.434,"body":"a world that never stops shipping."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":891.834,"endTime":893.944,"body":"And so if you're ready to roll"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":891.834,"endTime":893.944,"body":"up your sleeves and join our"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":893.944,"endTime":897.474,"body":"conversation, the stakes are high,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":893.944,"endTime":897.474,"body":"but the problems are fascinating."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":897.804,"endTime":899.364,"body":"And we'd love to include you."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":899.374,"endTime":902.264,"body":"So in that survey, there's a way"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":899.374,"endTime":902.264,"body":"for you to raise your hand, and it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":902.264,"endTime":903.534,"body":"only takes a minute to complete."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":903.534,"endTime":905.754,"body":"So please check it out in the show notes."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":905.774,"endTime":907.964,"body":"And thanks in advance"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":905.774,"endTime":907.964,"body":"for lending us your time."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":911.067,"endTime":912.717,"body":"Welcome back to Dev Interrupted."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":912.977,"endTime":915.617,"body":"I'm your host, Andrew Ziegler,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":912.977,"endTime":915.617,"body":"and today we have a special"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":915.617,"endTime":916.877,"body":"episode in store for you."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":917.297,"endTime":921.147,"body":"I'm joined by Luca Rossi, the mind"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":917.297,"endTime":921.147,"body":"behind refactoring and a returning"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":921.147,"endTime":924.617,"body":"guest on the show, as well as"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":921.147,"endTime":924.617,"body":"my co host Ben Lloyd Pearson."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":925.102,"endTime":928.512,"body":"We're diving into the traits and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":925.102,"endTime":928.512,"body":"practices that make engineering teams"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":928.512,"endTime":932.672,"body":"successful based on a survey made"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":928.512,"endTime":932.672,"body":"possible by you, the Dev Interrupted"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":932.682,"endTime":934.422,"body":"and refactoring community members."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":934.822,"endTime":936.412,"body":"Luca, welcome back."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":936.422,"endTime":937.092,"body":"How have you been?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":937.703,"endTime":938.193,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":938.193,"endTime":939.663,"body":"Thank you so much for having me."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":939.703,"endTime":940.353,"body":"I'm great."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":940.353,"endTime":944.143,"body":"I'm so happy to discuss this great"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":940.353,"endTime":944.143,"body":"work that we did and excited."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":944.998,"endTime":945.728,"body":"We're excited too."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":945.728,"endTime":949.875,"body":"So, your latest report, it uncovers"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":945.728,"endTime":949.875,"body":"some surprising insights, at least"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":949.875,"endTime":953.795,"body":"they were surprising to me when I went"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":949.875,"endTime":953.795,"body":"through, about engineering teams, from"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":953.795,"endTime":959.325,"body":"how shipping code impacts happiness to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":953.795,"endTime":959.325,"body":"the hidden flywheels in team dynamics"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":959.325,"endTime":961.125,"body":"that are hiding right in front of us."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":961.355,"endTime":962.825,"body":"So let's dig in."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":963.428,"endTime":963.668,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":963.668,"endTime":967.278,"body":"And I wanted to start with the thing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":963.668,"endTime":967.278,"body":"that like, really, since I first"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":967.278,"endTime":970.578,"body":"read this report, I've been thinking"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":967.278,"endTime":970.578,"body":"about like nonstop, and that's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":970.588,"endTime":974.908,"body":"these like three successful traits"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":970.588,"endTime":974.908,"body":"that you defined, for engineering"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":974.908,"endTime":976.658,"body":"teams and why they matter so much."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":976.688,"endTime":980.918,"body":"So in this report, there were like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":976.688,"endTime":980.918,"body":"three key items that we found that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":981.063,"endTime":984.003,"body":"we're consistent among,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":981.063,"endTime":984.003,"body":"successful engineering teams."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":984.003,"endTime":988.003,"body":"So first they're well regarded"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":984.003,"endTime":988.003,"body":"by non technical leadership."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":988.383,"endTime":991.303,"body":"They're happy with their"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":988.383,"endTime":991.303,"body":"development practices and they're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":991.343,"endTime":993.363,"body":"able to ship code quickly."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":993.393,"endTime":995.323,"body":"So Luca, let's just dive in with those"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":995.323,"endTime":996.713,"body":"three things to start with."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":996.743,"endTime":1001.013,"body":"And why are these things so tightly"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":996.743,"endTime":1001.013,"body":"correlated with engineering success?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1002.207,"endTime":1005.607,"body":"that's such a good question"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1002.207,"endTime":1005.607,"body":"because when we started diving into the"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1005.607,"endTime":1007.937,"body":"data from the survey, we tried to do that."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1008.402,"endTime":1012.662,"body":"without bringing in any kind of bias from"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1008.402,"endTime":1012.662,"body":"our own, because of course we all have our"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1012.672,"endTime":1017.152,"body":"own opinions about what makes engineering"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1012.672,"endTime":1017.152,"body":"teams successful, you know, when it comes"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1017.152,"endTime":1020.302,"body":"to practices or the type of outcomes."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1020.632,"endTime":1025.292,"body":"we really try to go into the data"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1020.632,"endTime":1025.292,"body":"like eyes wide open and we found that"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1025.803,"endTime":1030.237,"body":"These traits were with a wide margin,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1025.803,"endTime":1030.237,"body":"the most correlated with all kinds of"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1030.297,"endTime":1034.737,"body":"good practices you can think of, which"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1030.297,"endTime":1034.737,"body":"means, when it comes to engineering,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1034.747,"endTime":1039.027,"body":"being well regarded by all Non technical"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1034.747,"endTime":1039.027,"body":"stakeholders, engineering being happy"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1039.037,"endTime":1043.377,"body":"about their practices, project shipping"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1039.037,"endTime":1043.377,"body":"on time, all these things, you can trace"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1043.377,"endTime":1048.997,"body":"like a gradient that the more these things"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1043.377,"endTime":1048.997,"body":"are good and well considered by engineers,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1049.147,"endTime":1054.297,"body":"the better the engineering team performs"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1049.147,"endTime":1054.297,"body":"on things like having enough focus time,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1054.307,"endTime":1058.737,"body":"spending time as it was planned, uh,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1054.307,"endTime":1058.737,"body":"engineers not needing to wait for others."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1058.767,"endTime":1061.137,"body":"They're happy with"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1058.767,"endTime":1061.137,"body":"everything they're doing."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1061.137,"endTime":1063.487,"body":"So, I would love to be able to say."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1063.832,"endTime":1067.382,"body":"These are the successful trades"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1063.832,"endTime":1067.382,"body":"because of this and that, but I can"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1067.382,"endTime":1072.362,"body":"only observe the data and say, this is"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1067.382,"endTime":1072.362,"body":"apparently what matters the most or what"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1072.362,"endTime":1074.542,"body":"is quoted as the most, with success."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1075.458,"endTime":1075.678,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1075.678,"endTime":1079.678,"body":"I mean, you know, we hear constantly"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1075.678,"endTime":1079.678,"body":"that like developer experience is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1079.688,"endTime":1084.078,"body":"like a critical component of, of being"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1079.688,"endTime":1084.078,"body":"productive, like having a good experience"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1084.078,"endTime":1088.508,"body":"at work and, and being engaged with the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1084.078,"endTime":1088.508,"body":"things that you do and yeah, I do, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1088.508,"endTime":1091.718,"body":"do think it's important though, to note"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1088.508,"endTime":1091.718,"body":"that, you know, these are correlations."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1091.728,"endTime":1094.468,"body":"So it's, shipping quickly doesn't"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1091.728,"endTime":1094.468,"body":"necessarily mean that everyone's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1094.478,"endTime":1095.958,"body":"going to be happier about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1095.968,"endTime":1100.648,"body":"things, but you know, a team that is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1095.968,"endTime":1100.648,"body":"able to ship quickly and is successful"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1100.648,"endTime":1105.428,"body":"over a long term is probably going to be"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1100.648,"endTime":1105.428,"body":"more likely to be well regarded, within,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1105.568,"endTime":1107.458,"body":"you know, their entire organization."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1107.968,"endTime":1112.168,"body":"So like that, that brings me to my"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1107.968,"endTime":1112.168,"body":"next question on this, like what"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1112.168,"endTime":1116.188,"body":"are some practices or cultural"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1112.168,"endTime":1116.188,"body":"elements that you think help"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1116.188,"endTime":1118.188,"body":"teams like develop these traits,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1119.392,"endTime":1122.282,"body":"Yeah, this is, this is"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1119.392,"endTime":1122.282,"body":"again, another great question, because"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1122.332,"endTime":1128.272,"body":"as you briefly said, We cannot know"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1122.332,"endTime":1128.272,"body":"for sure where the, let's say the"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1128.272,"endTime":1130.652,"body":"direction of the correlation goes, right?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1130.652,"endTime":1130.972,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1131.292,"endTime":1136.592,"body":"I think that in some cases, engineering,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1131.292,"endTime":1136.592,"body":"for example, being well regarded among"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1136.592,"endTime":1139.092,"body":"technical stakeholders is downstream."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1139.152,"endTime":1142.831,"body":"The fact that the engineering"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1139.152,"endTime":1142.831,"body":"team has proven They are"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1142.832,"endTime":1145.272,"body":"worthy of being well regarded"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1145.902,"endTime":1149.442,"body":"because of the good practices,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1145.902,"endTime":1149.442,"body":"for example, that you may mention."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1149.972,"endTime":1155.112,"body":"Other times, it is maybe also a top"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1149.972,"endTime":1155.112,"body":"down element that comes from technical"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1155.122,"endTime":1160.162,"body":"subway leadership, you know, technical"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1155.122,"endTime":1160.162,"body":"founders, that creates a culture"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1160.162,"endTime":1161.772,"body":"where engineering is well regarded."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1162.171,"endTime":1165.271,"body":"so I think, there might be different"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1162.171,"endTime":1165.271,"body":"directions that depend on the team."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1165.531,"endTime":1169.871,"body":"but what we are seeing when it comes to"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1165.531,"endTime":1169.871,"body":"practices that lead to engineering being"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1169.881,"endTime":1175.101,"body":"well regarded, it's many of the things"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1169.881,"endTime":1175.101,"body":"that you may expect, like actually project"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1175.101,"endTime":1179.911,"body":"ships on time, people not needing to"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1175.101,"endTime":1179.911,"body":"wait for others, engineering investment."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1182.816,"endTime":1188.036,"body":"So speed, for example, is very important,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1182.816,"endTime":1188.036,"body":"but it seems that predictability about"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1188.106,"endTime":1192.406,"body":"outcomes and about where the time goes"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1188.106,"endTime":1192.406,"body":"and where the time is spent, plays in"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1192.666,"endTime":1195.556,"body":"even a major role when it comes to trust."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1195.556,"endTime":1196.822,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1196.954,"endTime":1199.674,"body":"I've been thinking"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1196.954,"endTime":1199.674,"body":"about that first point a lot, like being"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1199.674,"endTime":1203.184,"body":"well regarded by non technical leadership."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1203.194,"endTime":1207.374,"body":"It's like, what if you're not well"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1203.194,"endTime":1207.374,"body":"regarded as an engineering organization,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1207.374,"endTime":1210.074,"body":"like you should dive into those"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1207.374,"endTime":1210.074,"body":"with those other organizations,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1210.084,"endTime":1211.694,"body":"why that's the case, you know?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1212.114,"endTime":1214.894,"body":"Like, you know, marketing is going"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1212.114,"endTime":1214.894,"body":"to launch a new campaign around"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1214.894,"endTime":1216.164,"body":"features that we're going to release."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1216.194,"endTime":1219.294,"body":"And sales is like promising these"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1216.194,"endTime":1219.294,"body":"features to people that they're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1219.294,"endTime":1221.004,"body":"speaking to in conversations."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1221.004,"endTime":1224.444,"body":"And, if your engineering team"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1221.004,"endTime":1224.444,"body":"isn't predictably meeting those"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1224.444,"endTime":1228.384,"body":"expectations, then you're probably"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1224.444,"endTime":1228.384,"body":"not going to be well regarded."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1228.384,"endTime":1232.486,"body":"So if you have that conversation and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1228.384,"endTime":1232.486,"body":"you find out that, You know, sales is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1232.486,"endTime":1234.686,"body":"frustrated for this reason or whatever."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1235.346,"endTime":1238.516,"body":"I feel like that's such a great"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1235.346,"endTime":1238.516,"body":"place for an engineering leader in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1238.516,"endTime":1242.252,"body":"particular, to start that conversation"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1238.516,"endTime":1242.252,"body":"with how do we make the justification"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1242.252,"endTime":1245.882,"body":"for our engineering organization"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1242.252,"endTime":1245.882,"body":"as a whole to be more effective?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1246.709,"endTime":1248.099,"body":"Yes, I completely agree."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1248.099,"endTime":1252.629,"body":"And I think that this is a conversation"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1248.099,"endTime":1252.629,"body":"that is more and more relevant, these"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1252.629,"endTime":1257.069,"body":"days and this time in history where"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1252.629,"endTime":1257.069,"body":"you see companies getting leaner,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1257.309,"endTime":1262.009,"body":"engineering teams getting more productive"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1257.309,"endTime":1262.009,"body":"with better tooling than ever with AI."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1262.299,"endTime":1264.189,"body":"so I think there has been a time where."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1264.504,"endTime":1268.994,"body":"engineering value was kind of taken for"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1264.504,"endTime":1268.994,"body":"granted and teams were ever expanding"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1269.024,"endTime":1271.944,"body":"in big tech and in various departments."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1272.134,"endTime":1277.294,"body":"but now there is more, you know,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1272.134,"endTime":1277.294,"body":"tight, control over what kind of"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1277.304,"endTime":1278.984,"body":"budget goes into engineering teams."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1278.984,"endTime":1279.554,"body":"And I think"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1279.574,"endTime":1283.214,"body":"this is in many cases, even a healthy."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1283.339,"endTime":1287.929,"body":"thing that makes leaders, have"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1283.339,"endTime":1287.929,"body":"to come to the table with a good"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1287.929,"endTime":1290.969,"body":"understanding on what's the business"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1287.929,"endTime":1290.969,"body":"value of the things that they're doing."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1291.229,"endTime":1296.239,"body":"and I think it makes, engineering"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1291.229,"endTime":1296.239,"body":"organizations much sure, because they have"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1296.239,"endTime":1301.189,"body":"to go outside of simple their technical"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1296.239,"endTime":1301.189,"body":"castle and go there and be able to"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1301.189,"endTime":1303.149,"body":"speak business, which is a good thing."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1303.159,"endTime":1303.809,"body":"If you ask me."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1304.215,"endTime":1304.775,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1304.775,"endTime":1308.035,"body":"And a lot of organizations aren't"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1304.775,"endTime":1308.035,"body":"experienced or used to doing that,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1308.085,"endTime":1311.315,"body":"you know, like it's a level of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1308.085,"endTime":1311.315,"body":"maturity that I think is still very"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1311.325,"endTime":1315.165,"body":"fresh to a lot of people in the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1311.325,"endTime":1315.165,"body":"engineering side of the equation."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1316.052,"endTime":1318.472,"body":"You described the data"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1316.052,"endTime":1318.472,"body":"as a gradient, which is something"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1318.472,"endTime":1322.192,"body":"that really stuck with me about how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1318.472,"endTime":1322.192,"body":"all of these things trend together."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1322.202,"endTime":1325.722,"body":"And it makes sense because if something"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1322.202,"endTime":1325.722,"body":"is, if the team is well regarded by"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1325.722,"endTime":1329.332,"body":"non technical leadership, it's probably"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1325.722,"endTime":1329.332,"body":"because they're shipping quickly."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1329.622,"endTime":1331.782,"body":"And if they're shipping quickly,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1329.622,"endTime":1331.782,"body":"it's probably because they're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1331.782,"endTime":1333.382,"body":"happy with their practices."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1333.392,"endTime":1333.962,"body":"So they all"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1333.962,"endTime":1338.624,"body":"feed into each other, but it creates"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1333.962,"endTime":1338.624,"body":"a unique chicken and an egg scenario,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1338.624,"endTime":1343.399,"body":"like a hard problem to solve for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1338.624,"endTime":1343.399,"body":"the engineering team that doesn't"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1343.419,"endTime":1345.539,"body":"have all of those in place already,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1345.879,"endTime":1346.239,"body":"because"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1346.239,"endTime":1349.859,"body":"if they're not happy with their practices,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1346.239,"endTime":1349.859,"body":"then they're not able to ship quickly."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1349.979,"endTime":1351.879,"body":"So they're not able to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1349.979,"endTime":1351.879,"body":"become well regarded."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1351.899,"endTime":1352.689,"body":"And if they're not able"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1352.689,"endTime":1356.449,"body":"to become well regarded, they"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1352.689,"endTime":1356.449,"body":"can't improve their practices, and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1356.509,"endTime":1357.849,"body":"that way they can ship quickly."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1357.849,"endTime":1358.739,"body":"So it's an"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1358.739,"endTime":1359.949,"body":"empowerment issue."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1360.269,"endTime":1360.699,"body":"And how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1360.699,"endTime":1365.789,"body":"can leaders, you think, how can they get"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1360.699,"endTime":1365.789,"body":"that moving, if their team feels stuck in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1365.789,"endTime":1369.619,"body":"proving themselves through these, like,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1365.789,"endTime":1369.619,"body":"chains of traits that we're talking about?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1370.219,"endTime":1373.489,"body":"Yeah, that is such"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1370.219,"endTime":1373.489,"body":"a tough question to answer."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1373.539,"endTime":1376.599,"body":"First of all, I, I want to"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1373.539,"endTime":1376.599,"body":"say that What you just said is"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1376.699,"endTime":1378.629,"body":"completely confirmed by the data."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1378.639,"endTime":1384.459,"body":"That is what you see is that successful"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1378.639,"endTime":1384.459,"body":"teams are not like successful at"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1384.609,"endTime":1388.369,"body":"maybe one big trait, you know,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1384.609,"endTime":1388.369,"body":"they're successful at everything."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1388.749,"endTime":1390.889,"body":"So good teams do everything good."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1391.489,"endTime":1394.769,"body":"So it's like a flywheel,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1391.489,"endTime":1394.769,"body":"as you mentioned, that"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1394.849,"endTime":1398.799,"body":"success brings more success"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1394.849,"endTime":1398.799,"body":"and of course makes people"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1398.819,"endTime":1400.499,"body":"happier about engineering and."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1400.664,"endTime":1405.624,"body":"That gives engineering teams more leeway"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1400.664,"endTime":1405.624,"body":"and space to, to have more impact and"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1405.624,"endTime":1407.074,"body":"that creates, you know, more trust."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1407.074,"endTime":1410.784,"body":"And, and so I think it's a, this"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1407.074,"endTime":1410.784,"body":"is the positive flywheel, which"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1410.794,"endTime":1412.284,"body":"goes also in the other direction."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1412.284,"endTime":1415.884,"body":"things don't go well, trust"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1412.284,"endTime":1415.884,"body":"decreases and you get less scope,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1415.884,"endTime":1417.994,"body":"less impact and, and da da da."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1417.994,"endTime":1423.447,"body":"so I think, when it comes to what to"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1417.994,"endTime":1423.447,"body":"focus on, there is a lot of, Things"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1423.447,"endTime":1426.937,"body":"that you can work on a lot of tools"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1423.447,"endTime":1426.937,"body":"to measure pretty much everything"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1426.937,"endTime":1429.487,"body":"these days, but Everything takes work."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1429.487,"endTime":1433.047,"body":"I mean, when you take one piece,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1429.487,"endTime":1433.047,"body":"one part of the development process,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1433.047,"endTime":1436.337,"body":"and you want to improve that,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1433.047,"endTime":1436.337,"body":"it's just, it's a lot of work."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1436.387,"endTime":1440.057,"body":"whatever you focus on, because you"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1436.387,"endTime":1440.057,"body":"have to measure what works, what does"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1440.057,"endTime":1443.927,"body":"not work, you have to embed that into,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1440.057,"endTime":1443.927,"body":"I don't know, team processes and, and"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1443.927,"endTime":1448.507,"body":"see if things improve over time, design"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1443.927,"endTime":1448.507,"body":"initiatives to make the thing, get better."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1448.847,"endTime":1454.637,"body":"So I think the safest way is just to focus"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1448.847,"endTime":1454.637,"body":"on One thing at a time, rally your team"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1454.717,"endTime":1457.377,"body":"on that and create momentum on that thing."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1457.617,"endTime":1462.197,"body":"And then go really one by one, knowing"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1457.617,"endTime":1462.197,"body":"that many things are related to each"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1462.197,"endTime":1466.687,"body":"other, so it's, they don't really work"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1462.197,"endTime":1466.687,"body":"in isolation, but you can, neither."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1466.757,"endTime":1469.857,"body":"fool yourself by thinking that"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1466.757,"endTime":1469.857,"body":"you can just address all the"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1469.867,"endTime":1471.787,"body":"problems of your team at once."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1472.647,"endTime":1475.247,"body":"That's right, our"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1472.647,"endTime":1475.247,"body":"co host Dan, he says this a lot,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1475.287,"endTime":1476.947,"body":"that you should just find one thing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1477.227,"endTime":1477.537,"body":"and put"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1477.537,"endTime":1480.347,"body":"an automation or a fix in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1477.537,"endTime":1480.347,"body":"place to make it better."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1480.507,"endTime":1484.017,"body":"even if it's not perfect, just"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1480.507,"endTime":1484.017,"body":"making that one small change, is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1484.017,"endTime":1485.557,"body":"really important to getting started."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1485.797,"endTime":1489.417,"body":"And when it comes to a flywheel, one"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1485.797,"endTime":1489.417,"body":"small change is how you start pushing it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1489.417,"endTime":1493.447,"body":"the other direction and making it from"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1489.417,"endTime":1493.447,"body":"a negative flywheel into a positive one."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1493.805,"endTime":1493.995,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1493.995,"endTime":1497.745,"body":"And I think, I think visibility"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1493.995,"endTime":1497.745,"body":"is such a key aspect to this too."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1498.1,"endTime":1501.57,"body":"Cause you know, I think back to anytime"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1498.1,"endTime":1501.57,"body":"that I've tried to unpack a, like an"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1501.58,"endTime":1505.386,"body":"overly complicated process or something"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1501.58,"endTime":1505.386,"body":"that just isn't working as efficiently as"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1505.386,"endTime":1510.056,"body":"it should be like mapping everything out"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1505.386,"endTime":1510.056,"body":"so that when one of those efficiencies"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1510.056,"endTime":1512.856,"body":"appears, you have a point of discussion."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1512.866,"endTime":1516.106,"body":"It's like, here's a pain point"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1512.866,"endTime":1516.106,"body":"we're experiencing today."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1516.226,"endTime":1518.946,"body":"And here's the data that shows us"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1516.226,"endTime":1518.946,"body":"that we're experiencing that pain."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1518.946,"endTime":1521.616,"body":"What do we do to minimize"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1518.946,"endTime":1521.616,"body":"that in the future?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1521.616,"endTime":1526.126,"body":"And in, You know, that helps you just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1521.616,"endTime":1526.126,"body":"one by one pick out the things that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1526.126,"endTime":1527.496,"body":"are sort of slowing your team down."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1528.274,"endTime":1532.284,"body":"And speaking of slowing teams down,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1528.274,"endTime":1532.284,"body":"you know, we found one thing that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1532.284,"endTime":1536.744,"body":"was found in this report is that the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1532.284,"endTime":1536.744,"body":"frequency of shipping code impacts"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1536.854,"endTime":1538.744,"body":"team happiness and performance."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1539.139,"endTime":1542.569,"body":"The report shows that shipping code"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1539.139,"endTime":1542.569,"body":"multiple times a day makes teams"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1542.599,"endTime":1545.229,"body":"dramatically happier and more effective."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1545.239,"endTime":1547.859,"body":"So why do you think that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1545.239,"endTime":1547.859,"body":"shipping frequency is such"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1548.229,"endTime":1549.789,"body":"like a game changer for morale?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1551.198,"endTime":1555.528,"body":"Well, I think everyone can"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1551.198,"endTime":1555.528,"body":"relate, uh, from our own experience"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1555.548,"endTime":1559.958,"body":"when, I mean, as software engineers"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1555.548,"endTime":1559.958,"body":"or for those of us who are managers"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1559.988,"endTime":1564.238,"body":"or CTOs from the time where we were"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1559.988,"endTime":1564.238,"body":"engineers I think the best times,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1564.278,"endTime":1569.078,"body":"in terms of personal satisfaction"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1564.278,"endTime":1569.078,"body":"and feeling impact was where I was."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1569.188,"endTime":1574.878,"body":"We are able to do things really fast and"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1569.188,"endTime":1574.878,"body":"push new features and code like nonstop."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1575.178,"endTime":1579.718,"body":"Maybe you can think about the experience"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1575.178,"endTime":1579.718,"body":"you have with your side projects, right?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1579.718,"endTime":1581.048,"body":"Where everything feels fast."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1581.068,"endTime":1585.698,"body":"You ship in minutes and you can make"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1581.068,"endTime":1585.698,"body":"incredible progress by yourself."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1585.698,"endTime":1588.288,"body":"So that's the exact feeling that I have."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1588.828,"endTime":1592.088,"body":"Some of the best teams are able"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1588.828,"endTime":1592.088,"body":"to replicate, on the full team."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1592.368,"endTime":1596.728,"body":"and I think that, to answer your"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1592.368,"endTime":1596.728,"body":"question, what makes shipping fast, really"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1596.728,"endTime":1599.118,"body":"important is, is like this feedback loop."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1599.418,"endTime":1602.338,"body":"So when developers are"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1599.418,"endTime":1602.338,"body":"able to create such a team."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1602.338,"endTime":1606.5,"body":"it's a very tight feedback loop between"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1602.338,"endTime":1606.5,"body":"the thing that they do and whether"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1606.5,"endTime":1610.53,"body":"it works, it doesn't work, it goes"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1606.5,"endTime":1610.53,"body":"well, it's adopted by users or not,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1610.8,"endTime":1612.53,"body":"it makes work just more effective."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1612.58,"endTime":1616.32,"body":"Otherwise, when things go slowly and"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1612.58,"endTime":1616.32,"body":"they have to context switch to other"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1616.32,"endTime":1620.24,"body":"tasks before seeing their work being"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1616.32,"endTime":1620.24,"body":"released, everything gets slower"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1620.25,"endTime":1623.61,"body":"because if you have to fix something,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1620.25,"endTime":1623.61,"body":"you have to context switch again,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1623.9,"endTime":1627.48,"body":"or you have to wait for a long code"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1623.9,"endTime":1627.48,"body":"review and you context switch again."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1627.48,"endTime":1628.35,"body":"the less."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1628.455,"endTime":1631.635,"body":"you have to switch to other tasks"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1628.455,"endTime":1631.635,"body":"and the more you can stay in your"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1631.635,"endTime":1637.015,"body":"lane doing your thing and the better,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1631.635,"endTime":1637.015,"body":"and that's only enabled by, a fast"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1637.035,"endTime":1640.935,"body":"workflow and that allows you to"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1637.035,"endTime":1640.935,"body":"do things very, very frequently."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1641.63,"endTime":1644.16,"body":"we live in a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1641.63,"endTime":1644.16,"body":"world of immediate gratification."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1644.21,"endTime":1648.68,"body":"you think about the impact of, if"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1644.21,"endTime":1648.68,"body":"you write code today and it takes"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1648.74,"endTime":1652.99,"body":"a week or two weeks for it to get"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1648.74,"endTime":1652.99,"body":"merged into production, like the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1652.99,"endTime":1655.82,"body":"gratification you feel from that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1652.99,"endTime":1655.82,"body":"is going to be so much better."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1656.185,"endTime":1659.825,"body":"Diminished versus like something"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1656.185,"endTime":1659.825,"body":"that just gets shipped, within"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1659.825,"endTime":1661.895,"body":"an hour or so, you know?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1662.589,"endTime":1663.049,"body":"totally."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1663.499,"endTime":1667.329,"body":"And, and think that, I mean, one"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1663.499,"endTime":1667.329,"body":"of the kind of scary things that"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1667.329,"endTime":1672.139,"body":"came out of the survey is that,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1667.329,"endTime":1672.139,"body":"like 35 percent of the teams take"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1672.199,"endTime":1674.509,"body":"like days to release to production."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1674.819,"endTime":1678.999,"body":"So it's, it's a big number, both,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1674.819,"endTime":1678.999,"body":"both the percentage and the amount of"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1679.029,"endTime":1680.549,"body":"time it takes to ship to production."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1680.929,"endTime":1684.659,"body":"And when this happens, it's usually"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1680.929,"endTime":1684.659,"body":"because maybe you have a staging"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1684.659,"endTime":1686.859,"body":"environment where changes get batched."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1686.979,"endTime":1690.559,"body":"So when things get released, it's a"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1686.979,"endTime":1690.559,"body":"lot of stuff together gets released."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1690.579,"endTime":1695.129,"body":"What you worked on, it's modeled and"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1690.579,"endTime":1695.129,"body":"it's put together other things and"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1695.129,"endTime":1697.269,"body":"you can't really know how it's going."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1697.269,"endTime":1700.119,"body":"So everything gets kind of worse."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1700.259,"endTime":1704.659,"body":"So I think any work that we do"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1700.259,"endTime":1704.659,"body":"to make this feedback loop better"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1704.659,"endTime":1707.809,"body":"and faster and leaner, the better."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1707.829,"endTime":1708.764,"body":"So,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1708.784,"endTime":1711.514,"body":"do you have any"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1708.784,"endTime":1711.514,"body":"advice or tips on for organizations"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1711.524,"endTime":1715.604,"body":"that Do want to get faster at"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1711.524,"endTime":1715.604,"body":"pushing code through to production?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1717.393,"endTime":1720.043,"body":"of course, pushing"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1717.393,"endTime":1720.043,"body":"code to production is, like a"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1720.043,"endTime":1722.263,"body":"pipeline made of many steps."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1722.718,"endTime":1728.248,"body":"And, some of these are like technical"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1722.718,"endTime":1728.248,"body":"steps, like build times, deploy"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1728.248,"endTime":1734.028,"body":"times and others are instead manual"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1728.248,"endTime":1734.028,"body":"steps, like, reviewing, the code"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1734.038,"endTime":1736.608,"body":"in the PR or doing manual QA."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1737.018,"endTime":1738.558,"body":"And it's way easier."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1739.533,"endTime":1742.703,"body":"on the manual parts of the"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1739.533,"endTime":1742.703,"body":"process and try to reduce them."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1742.703,"endTime":1745.653,"body":"And also they're, they're"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1742.703,"endTime":1745.653,"body":"usually also the most impacting."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1745.883,"endTime":1749.113,"body":"The things that take hours,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1745.883,"endTime":1749.113,"body":"it's rarely the technical stuff."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1749.633,"endTime":1753.173,"body":"some engineers are more comfortable"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1749.633,"endTime":1753.173,"body":"at trying, you know, working weeks"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1753.173,"endTime":1755.913,"body":"to shave minutes of the CI CD builds."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1755.973,"endTime":1760.603,"body":"But then you see code sitting idle for"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1755.973,"endTime":1760.603,"body":"like 15 hours, waiting for a review."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1760.603,"endTime":1762.263,"body":"And that just doesn't make sense."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1762.833,"endTime":1766.093,"body":"focusing on the manual parts of the"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1762.833,"endTime":1766.093,"body":"process, it's usually the best bet."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1766.133,"endTime":1768.913,"body":"And it's where you can shave"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1766.133,"endTime":1768.913,"body":"off more and more time."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1769.397,"endTime":1769.617,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1769.617,"endTime":1773.587,"body":"And from our experience, a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1769.617,"endTime":1773.587,"body":"issue tends to be around code reviews."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1773.607,"endTime":1774.077,"body":"You know, we've"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1774.077,"endTime":1776.947,"body":"seen this quite frequently"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1774.077,"endTime":1776.947,"body":"where, developers are generally"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1776.947,"endTime":1778.377,"body":"pretty good at writing code."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1778.537,"endTime":1781.437,"body":"and CICD has done a pretty"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1778.537,"endTime":1781.437,"body":"good job at making it pretty"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1781.437,"endTime":1784.567,"body":"easy to get code deployed to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1784.587,"endTime":1785.257,"body":"production."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1785.437,"endTime":1788.937,"body":"it's all the human to human stuff that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1785.437,"endTime":1788.937,"body":"happens in the middle and sometimes human"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1788.937,"endTime":1792.567,"body":"to machine stuff that happens in the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1788.937,"endTime":1792.567,"body":"middle that I think a lot of organizations"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1792.567,"endTime":1794.577,"body":"get really get bogged down in today."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1795.586,"endTime":1795.976,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1796.101,"endTime":1798.321,"body":"like the scary"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1796.101,"endTime":1798.321,"body":"problem to solve too, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1798.351,"endTime":1802.281,"body":"The human problem confronting each"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1798.351,"endTime":1802.281,"body":"other or otherwise figuring out how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1802.281,"endTime":1806.141,"body":"to fix a broken communication or"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1802.281,"endTime":1806.141,"body":"process is way harder than, like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1806.141,"endTime":1809.881,"body":"you said, shaving a few minutes off"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1806.141,"endTime":1809.881,"body":"maybe your CICD pipeline or whatnot."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1811.148,"endTime":1812.208,"body":"yeah, I agree."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1812.208,"endTime":1817.458,"body":"I mean, even if, I mean, when you look"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1812.208,"endTime":1817.458,"body":"at the practical implications of solving"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1817.458,"endTime":1821.718,"body":"that problem, solving the humans, but your"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1817.458,"endTime":1821.718,"body":"own parts of the problem can be easier."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1822.218,"endTime":1826.378,"body":"I think many of us technical people"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1822.218,"endTime":1826.378,"body":"are like more comfortable just working"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1826.378,"endTime":1828.022,"body":"on systems, which are a lot easier."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1828.183,"endTime":1829.763,"body":"Totally under our control."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1829.773,"endTime":1830.243,"body":"They don't"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1830.243,"endTime":1832.093,"body":"require like hard conversations."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1832.093,"endTime":1832.953,"body":"I mean, I totally get it."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1833.043,"endTime":1833.923,"body":"I'm like that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1835.169,"endTime":1835.589,"body":"hmm."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1835.663,"endTime":1840.653,"body":"uh, we have to say"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1835.663,"endTime":1840.653,"body":"because that the most gains"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1840.853,"endTime":1842.923,"body":"usually are in the human parts"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1843.393,"endTime":1843.623,"body":"of the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1843.838,"endTime":1845.198,"body":"Right, right."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1845.488,"endTime":1847.118,"body":"And they're closed systems, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1847.118,"endTime":1848.968,"body":"You go to them, you know how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1847.118,"endTime":1848.968,"body":"they work, you put your inputs"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1848.968,"endTime":1850.208,"body":"in, you get your outputs out."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1850.508,"endTime":1853.038,"body":"But when you work with another"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1850.508,"endTime":1853.038,"body":"person, it's a lot harder because"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1853.038,"endTime":1855.807,"body":"there's context shifting, because,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1853.038,"endTime":1855.807,"body":"you know, you might have to take"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1855.807,"endTime":1856.957,"body":"a break from that conversation."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1856.957,"endTime":1858.407,"body":"Maybe they're in a meeting"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1856.957,"endTime":1858.407,"body":"right now, and you have to wait"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1858.407,"endTime":1859.117,"body":"for them to get back to you."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1859.127,"endTime":1861.237,"body":"Maybe they're on the other"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1859.127,"endTime":1861.237,"body":"side of the world, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1861.237,"endTime":1865.777,"body":"So those human problem solving things,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1861.237,"endTime":1865.777,"body":"they happen at a different cadence,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1865.817,"endTime":1867.487,"body":"and they don't happen on your own time"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1867.507,"endTime":1867.987,"body":"always."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1867.987,"endTime":1868.757,"body":"So that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1868.807,"endTime":1871.857,"body":"That's another barrier, right,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1868.807,"endTime":1871.857,"body":"in actually solving them."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1872.308,"endTime":1872.608,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1872.868,"endTime":1877.868,"body":"And imagine, you know, not, not very many"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1872.868,"endTime":1877.868,"body":"developers get, training on how to like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1878.368,"endTime":1881.238,"body":"productively critique, coworkers work."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1881.258,"endTime":1882.058,"body":"You know, like there's just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1882.058,"endTime":1884.958,"body":"not really a, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1882.058,"endTime":1884.958,"body":"software developers alone."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1884.958,"endTime":1887.038,"body":"Most people just don't"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1884.958,"endTime":1887.038,"body":"really get training on that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1887.038,"endTime":1890.198,"body":"And it's, I think a particularly"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1887.038,"endTime":1890.198,"body":"difficult task for developers."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1890.558,"endTime":1893.438,"body":"and it makes me think of some research"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1890.558,"endTime":1893.438,"body":"actually that I read recently where."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1893.813,"endTime":1897.433,"body":"one of the benefits of using"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1893.813,"endTime":1897.433,"body":"generative AI within like the code"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1897.433,"endTime":1901.763,"body":"review process was that, it always"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1897.433,"endTime":1901.763,"body":"defaults to this like professional,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1901.773,"endTime":1904.783,"body":"friendly, engaging, like helpful tone"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1905.173,"endTime":1908.663,"body":"that, even if it's not giving you the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1905.173,"endTime":1908.663,"body":"best feedback, it makes you feel a lot"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1908.663,"endTime":1912.013,"body":"better because it's just structuring"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1908.663,"endTime":1912.013,"body":"it in a way that, that makes you feel"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1912.013,"endTime":1913.923,"body":"like it's, it's helping you, you know?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1914.555,"endTime":1915.035,"body":"It's true."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1915.43,"endTime":1918.92,"body":"I really like how you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1915.43,"endTime":1918.92,"body":"compared the ideal experience being"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1918.92,"endTime":1921.53,"body":"like your side project, because that's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1918.92,"endTime":1921.53,"body":"something that you work on in your"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1921.53,"endTime":1925.11,"body":"own time, in your own closed system,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1921.53,"endTime":1925.11,"body":"and all the human problems are you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1925.16,"endTime":1928.54,"body":"talking to yourself about how to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1925.16,"endTime":1928.54,"body":"solve it or make things better, and so"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1928.54,"endTime":1930.62,"body":"it's like a much happier place to be."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1930.94,"endTime":1932.95,"body":"I think what that drives"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1930.94,"endTime":1932.95,"body":"out is the cohesion."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1933.11,"endTime":1933.4,"body":"that's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1933.4,"endTime":1935.34,"body":"needed between teams to solve it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1935.35,"endTime":1938.76,"body":"They need to work together in a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1935.35,"endTime":1938.76,"body":"quick way, much like how you would"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1938.76,"endTime":1940.87,"body":"on your hobby project on a weekend."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1941.39,"endTime":1945.84,"body":"And you also pointed out a really good"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1941.39,"endTime":1945.84,"body":"thing that when you, have longer gaps, in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1945.84,"endTime":1951.21,"body":"this review, or it takes a while to solve"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1945.84,"endTime":1951.21,"body":"these problems, you know, it adds, risk"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1951.27,"endTime":1955.07,"body":"effectively to the project and whether"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1951.27,"endTime":1955.07,"body":"it's going to ship on time, whether"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1955.07,"endTime":1958.74,"body":"it's going to hit the things needed,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1955.07,"endTime":1958.74,"body":"whether it's going to be secure, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1958.74,"endTime":1960.9,"body":"There could be so many things"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1958.74,"endTime":1960.9,"body":"that can go wrong in the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1960.9,"endTime":1963.02,"body":"cracks between those human interactions."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1963.464,"endTime":1967.694,"body":"So how can teams address that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1963.464,"endTime":1967.694,"body":"without overwhelming themselves?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1968.337,"endTime":1971.187,"body":"So I think that first"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1968.337,"endTime":1971.187,"body":"of all, one of the major reasons"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1971.187,"endTime":1976.207,"body":"why in some teams, code reviews take"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1971.187,"endTime":1976.207,"body":"too long, is that they're too hard."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1976.997,"endTime":1977.597,"body":"the human"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1977.597,"endTime":1979.917,"body":"reviewer needs to do too much work."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1980.297,"endTime":1983.027,"body":"that's because, the pull"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1980.297,"endTime":1983.027,"body":"request is too long."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1983.077,"endTime":1983.857,"body":"It's too big."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1984.257,"endTime":1988.237,"body":"And so it doesn't get, shipped"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1984.257,"endTime":1988.237,"body":"in, in, in small commits."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1988.567,"endTime":1992.467,"body":"or there are no guidelines for how"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1988.567,"endTime":1992.467,"body":"the code review needs to be done,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1992.857,"endTime":1996.567,"body":"or maybe there are guidelines,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1992.857,"endTime":1996.567,"body":"but the human reviewer needs"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1996.567,"endTime":1998.097,"body":"to check for too much stuff."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1999.297,"endTime":2003.377,"body":"So I think some of the, actually"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":1999.297,"endTime":2003.377,"body":"the easiest advice to implement,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2003.717,"endTime":2008.957,"body":"are not about the human factor, but"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2003.717,"endTime":2008.957,"body":"are very about the systems and you"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2008.957,"endTime":2010.527,"body":"can do a lot of improvement there."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2010.547,"endTime":2015.137,"body":"I mean, you can focus on creating small"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2010.547,"endTime":2015.137,"body":"pull requests and breaking down work"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2015.137,"endTime":2020.347,"body":"in small batches so that reviewers can"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2015.137,"endTime":2020.347,"body":"more easily, Take some time to do the"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2020.347,"endTime":2023.717,"body":"pull request instead of doing that at"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2020.347,"endTime":2023.717,"body":"the end of the day, because it will"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2023.757,"endTime":2028.437,"body":"take one hour, you know, and another"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2023.757,"endTime":2028.437,"body":"thing is that a lot of work that"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2028.437,"endTime":2030.177,"body":"doesn't require too much intelligence."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2030.177,"endTime":2033.627,"body":"can be delegated to good"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2030.177,"endTime":2033.627,"body":"tooling, static analysis, AI"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2033.627,"endTime":2037.627,"body":"powered, static analysis, that"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2033.627,"endTime":2037.627,"body":"today is able to catch a lot of"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2037.627,"endTime":2043.027,"body":"stuff from code smells to security,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2037.627,"endTime":2043.027,"body":"issues to vulnerabilities."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2043.027,"endTime":2045.887,"body":"I mean, there is a lot that you can check."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2046.287,"endTime":2051.247,"body":"Both in, your build, but even in"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2046.287,"endTime":2051.247,"body":"your IDE with the good plugins,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2051.267,"endTime":2055.507,"body":"with, with AI stuff, and that of"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2051.267,"endTime":2055.507,"body":"course raises the bar of the stuff"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2055.507,"endTime":2057.957,"body":"that gets in, to the pull requests."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2057.957,"endTime":2060.257,"body":"And so human reviewers"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2057.957,"endTime":2060.257,"body":"need to do less work."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2060.617,"endTime":2064.847,"body":"the way I see it is that code reviews"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2060.617,"endTime":2064.847,"body":"are basically the worst place to catch"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2064.897,"endTime":2068.427,"body":"any issue with code, because it's"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2064.897,"endTime":2068.427,"body":"basically the last step before shipping."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2068.93,"endTime":2073.954,"body":"uh, the earlier you intercept problems,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2068.93,"endTime":2073.954,"body":"the more you can shift left, the better."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2074.394,"endTime":2079.434,"body":"And so ideally, if you're, If you see"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2074.394,"endTime":2079.434,"body":"that your code review process constantly"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2079.494,"endTime":2081.974,"body":"catches a lot of stuff, that's a bad sign."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2082.024,"endTime":2085.514,"body":"you should be able to catch more"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2082.024,"endTime":2085.514,"body":"stuff before code review and ideally"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2085.514,"endTime":2088.714,"body":"code reviews shouldn't, shouldn't"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2085.514,"endTime":2088.714,"body":"catch a lot of things and just"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2088.764,"endTime":2090.704,"body":"mostly be used for knowledge sharing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2091.094,"endTime":2093.234,"body":"That does take work"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2091.094,"endTime":2093.234,"body":"to solve those problems earlier,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2093.234,"endTime":2094.274,"body":"but it makes a lot of sense."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2094.274,"endTime":2098.464,"body":"And it definitely requires a re"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2094.274,"endTime":2098.464,"body":"imagining of how to use a code"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2098.464,"endTime":2102.644,"body":"review, and maybe some best practices"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2098.464,"endTime":2102.644,"body":"for teams to apply moving forward."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2103.118,"endTime":2105.608,"body":"so you mentioned"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2103.118,"endTime":2105.608,"body":"all these like really great tools that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2105.608,"endTime":2109.008,"body":"are helping developers increase the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2105.608,"endTime":2109.008,"body":"quality of their code, but they also"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2109.068,"endTime":2112.428,"body":"I think are representative of a lot"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2109.068,"endTime":2112.428,"body":"of the difficulties that developers"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2112.428,"endTime":2116.173,"body":"are facing today as well because you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2112.428,"endTime":2116.173,"body":"know, if, if these tools are tacked"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2116.173,"endTime":2120.573,"body":"on, but there's not clear guidance"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2116.173,"endTime":2120.573,"body":"about how to effectively use them, like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2120.573,"endTime":2122.723,"body":"what the expectations are around them,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2123.013,"endTime":2126.873,"body":"what to do when they report"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2123.013,"endTime":2126.873,"body":"something that is a failure"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2127.273,"endTime":2127.933,"body":"or whatever."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2128.003,"endTime":2131.473,"body":"And really what I think represents"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2128.003,"endTime":2131.473,"body":"is like this idea of a code review"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2131.483,"endTime":2133.973,"body":"has just gotten so complicated in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2133.973,"endTime":2136.803,"body":"many ways that it actually is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2133.973,"endTime":2136.803,"body":"getting much more challenging for"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2136.803,"endTime":2140.833,"body":"developers to just navigate all of the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2136.803,"endTime":2140.833,"body":"requirements, you know, and that's,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2141.263,"endTime":2142.403,"body":"you know, and that gets back to like."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2142.441,"endTime":2145.841,"body":"manual processes, they shouldn't"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2142.441,"endTime":2145.841,"body":"have to be keeping all that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2145.841,"endTime":2146.691,"body":"knowledge in their head."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2146.691,"endTime":2149.081,"body":"Like there should be automated"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2146.691,"endTime":2149.081,"body":"guardrails that sort of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2149.451,"endTime":2150.931,"body":"push them down the right path,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2151.061,"endTime":2151.921,"body":"100%."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2151.961,"endTime":2153.271,"body":"And in fact, I mean, one of the."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2154.111,"endTime":2158.471,"body":"Key areas when you talk about and"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2154.111,"endTime":2158.471,"body":"think about developer experience"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2158.501,"endTime":2160.631,"body":"these days is like cognitive load."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2160.671,"endTime":2164.571,"body":"So keeping the amount of stuff that"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2160.671,"endTime":2164.571,"body":"developers have to keep in their"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2164.571,"endTime":2168.861,"body":"head under control, making tools"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2164.571,"endTime":2168.861,"body":"simpler and parts of the development"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2168.861,"endTime":2170.696,"body":"process simpler and more efficient."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2170.836,"endTime":2173.156,"body":"That do not require too much thinking."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2173.166,"endTime":2177.306,"body":"And when it comes to code reviews,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2173.166,"endTime":2177.306,"body":"it's very hard task, not just"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2177.346,"endTime":2181.146,"body":"because you have to, check for"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2177.346,"endTime":2181.146,"body":"code that you have not written."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2181.506,"endTime":2182.886,"body":"It's a lot of complexity."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2182.886,"endTime":2185.876,"body":"And then there is the additional"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2182.886,"endTime":2185.876,"body":"complexity of the human relationship."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2185.876,"endTime":2188.536,"body":"So you don't want to make out"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2185.876,"endTime":2188.536,"body":"the other person feel bad."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2188.546,"endTime":2189.516,"body":"I mean, you want to, to"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2189.516,"endTime":2190.936,"body":"write things the right way."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2191.126,"endTime":2192.446,"body":"So there is so much."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2192.715,"endTime":2196.245,"body":"complexity in doing a good code"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2192.715,"endTime":2196.245,"body":"review, that the more you can"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2196.245,"endTime":2198.935,"body":"streamline these, the better really."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2199.832,"endTime":2202.112,"body":"kind of calls out"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2199.832,"endTime":2202.112,"body":"something that a phenomenon that happens"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2202.112,"endTime":2207.792,"body":"a lot in teams is because that is a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2202.112,"endTime":2207.792,"body":"skill, you often get one or two really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2207.792,"endTime":2211.842,"body":"high performers on code reviews who"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2207.792,"endTime":2211.842,"body":"then just getting crazy bogged down"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2211.842,"endTime":2215.572,"body":"on code reviews, because their people"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2211.842,"endTime":2215.572,"body":"turn to them as being the best ones."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2215.572,"endTime":2218.392,"body":"But really, what that indicates is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2215.572,"endTime":2218.392,"body":"that there's problems in the process"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2218.392,"endTime":2220.767,"body":"that need to get solved earlier, right?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2221.218,"endTime":2221.508,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2221.518,"endTime":2222.758,"body":"100%. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2223.218,"endTime":2225.978,"body":"And so far we've talked"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2223.218,"endTime":2225.978,"body":"about, you know, the practices and how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2225.988,"endTime":2231.248,"body":"those practices can be applied to help you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2225.988,"endTime":2231.248,"body":"ship the code faster, have team practices"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2231.248,"endTime":2233.058,"body":"that make you and your devs happier."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2233.428,"endTime":2236.698,"body":"but there's another side of this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2233.428,"endTime":2236.698,"body":"conversation too, which is measuring,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2236.868,"endTime":2240.908,"body":"that over time, measuring the impact"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2236.868,"endTime":2240.908,"body":"and then rolling that impact up to your"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2240.908,"endTime":2245.018,"body":"non technical leadership, to the rest of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2240.908,"endTime":2245.018,"body":"the company, getting them on board with"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2245.018,"endTime":2248.258,"body":"your successes and understanding, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2245.018,"endTime":2248.258,"body":"know, your failures when they do happen."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2248.738,"endTime":2249.168,"body":"And"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2249.178,"endTime":2250.338,"body":"so metrics are crucial."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2250.453,"endTime":2253.423,"body":"And your report highlights"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2250.453,"endTime":2253.423,"body":"that, and how they're often"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2253.423,"endTime":2258.053,"body":"even misunderstood or misused by"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2253.423,"endTime":2258.053,"body":"either side of that conversation."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2258.053,"endTime":2260.143,"body":"It can be kind of a double edged sword."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2260.593,"endTime":2264.413,"body":"it can lead also to unintended"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2260.593,"endTime":2264.413,"body":"consequences like mistrust within a team."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2264.863,"endTime":2266.743,"body":"but metrics should be a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2264.863,"endTime":2266.743,"body":"tool for understanding."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2266.773,"endTime":2268.503,"body":"I think that we all strive for that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2268.553,"endTime":2271.603,"body":"and it's not just a target to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2268.553,"endTime":2271.603,"body":"hit, but really to understand."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2271.763,"endTime":2273.143,"body":"What you and your teams are doing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2273.503,"endTime":2277.523,"body":"so why do you think it is that teams"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2273.503,"endTime":2277.523,"body":"fall into the trap of misusing metrics"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2277.523,"endTime":2278.793,"body":"and what can they do to avoid it?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2280.055,"endTime":2284.385,"body":"I think, uh, because"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2280.055,"endTime":2284.385,"body":"metrics sometimes feel like low hanging"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2284.385,"endTime":2288.925,"body":"fruit, that they seem easier to use"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2284.385,"endTime":2288.925,"body":"for good than they actually are."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2289.335,"endTime":2292.065,"body":"so on one side, I believe they're crucial."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2292.295,"endTime":2294.705,"body":"I mean, to be sure that you're"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2292.295,"endTime":2294.705,"body":"actually getting better."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2294.715,"endTime":2297.928,"body":"I mean, the analogy that I always"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2294.715,"endTime":2297.928,"body":"make is that let's, let's say"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2297.928,"endTime":2301.028,"body":"you're trying to losing weight"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2297.928,"endTime":2301.028,"body":"and you're not weighting yourself."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2302.248,"endTime":2302.958,"body":"How do you know?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2303.628,"endTime":2305.298,"body":"So you have to measure things, right?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2305.318,"endTime":2308.533,"body":"But at the same time, even for"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2305.318,"endTime":2308.533,"body":"things that are easy to measure,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2308.593,"endTime":2313.823,"body":"sometimes it's not easy to set targets"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2308.593,"endTime":2313.823,"body":"for that and make them healthy."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2313.853,"endTime":2314.993,"body":"You know, even when it comes to"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2314.993,"endTime":2319.013,"body":"your, uh, weight, you have to take"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2314.993,"endTime":2319.013,"body":"into account your height and, and your,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2319.063,"endTime":2320.713,"body":"your muscles and, and many things."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2320.713,"endTime":2320.975,"body":"So you"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2320.975,"endTime":2325.715,"body":"can't just blindly take a"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2320.975,"endTime":2325.715,"body":"number and say 95, the 95."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2326.79,"endTime":2328.12,"body":"People always this way."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2328.12,"endTime":2329.09,"body":"And that's my target."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2329.09,"endTime":2330.34,"body":"I mean, it doesn't work like that,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2330.68,"endTime":2335.05,"body":"but instead some teams, get"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2330.68,"endTime":2335.05,"body":"into this magic workflow kind of"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2335.05,"endTime":2337.58,"body":"blindly, setting benchmarks that."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2338.18,"endTime":2342.2,"body":"I'm not, I mean, they're not always"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2338.18,"endTime":2342.2,"body":"comparable because it depends."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2342.21,"endTime":2345.49,"body":"You're a startup, you're a big"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2342.21,"endTime":2345.49,"body":"company, you're a high growth company."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2345.68,"endTime":2349.427,"body":"you're into, products, B2B, B2C,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2345.68,"endTime":2349.427,"body":"it's, it's all very different."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2349.427,"endTime":2350.217,"body":"So it's hard."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2350.577,"endTime":2355.887,"body":"but the act of measuring and,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2350.577,"endTime":2355.887,"body":"using measurements as a ground for"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2355.887,"endTime":2359.387,"body":"conversations, for, for feedback"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2355.887,"endTime":2359.387,"body":"loop, for improvements, that's"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2359.507,"endTime":2361.237,"body":"the most important thing, I think."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2362.193,"endTime":2365.51,"body":"You bring up a really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2362.193,"endTime":2365.51,"body":"good point here about how it's not about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2365.53,"endTime":2367.18,"body":"what the metrics mean for everyone else."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2367.21,"endTime":2369.39,"body":"It's about what the metrics"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2367.21,"endTime":2369.39,"body":"mean for you and your team."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2369.42,"endTime":2371.22,"body":"It's about having that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2369.42,"endTime":2371.22,"body":"conversation up front."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2371.26,"endTime":2373.84,"body":"Because having the metrics in place,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2371.26,"endTime":2373.84,"body":"you know, that's the first step."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2373.84,"endTime":2375.61,"body":"And that's relatively easy."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2375.66,"endTime":2377.69,"body":"A lot of places are drowning"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2375.66,"endTime":2377.69,"body":"in all sorts of data."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2377.975,"endTime":2379.045,"body":"points that they could look at."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2379.375,"endTime":2382.495,"body":"But it's more about having a common"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2379.375,"endTime":2382.495,"body":"understanding of what those data points"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2382.495,"endTime":2386.955,"body":"mean and when they should be taken"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2382.495,"endTime":2386.955,"body":"in context or with other numbers."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2386.975,"endTime":2390.595,"body":"You know, I really like your analogy"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2386.975,"endTime":2390.595,"body":"about weight and taking into effect"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2390.635,"endTime":2393.655,"body":"other things like your height and your"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2390.635,"endTime":2393.655,"body":"muscles, because otherwise you're not"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2393.655,"endTime":2395.905,"body":"getting a holistic view of your weight."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2395.985,"endTime":2399.685,"body":"And in that case, weight is giving"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2395.985,"endTime":2399.685,"body":"you an imperfect view of your health."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2400.075,"endTime":2405.115,"body":"how can someone introduce these metrics"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2400.075,"endTime":2405.115,"body":"then without creating like resistance?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2405.115,"endTime":2409.225,"body":"So if, if we acknowledge that, there"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2405.115,"endTime":2409.225,"body":"are different uses to metrics and we"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2409.225,"endTime":2412.105,"body":"have to have like a common understanding"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2409.225,"endTime":2412.105,"body":"and it's not just good or bad."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2412.435,"endTime":2413.125,"body":"how do you start?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2414.085,"endTime":2414.385,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2414.385,"endTime":2419.615,"body":"So first of all, I think one of the,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2414.385,"endTime":2419.615,"body":"the, the hard parts of this is that"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2420.195,"endTime":2427.255,"body":"using metrics right is like a pervasive"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2420.195,"endTime":2427.255,"body":"practice that involves everyone."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2427.265,"endTime":2432.155,"body":"I mean, software engineers, managers,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2427.265,"endTime":2432.155,"body":"eventually, you know, the leadership"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2432.155,"endTime":2434.235,"body":"gets reports of stuff and so on."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2434.585,"endTime":2441.149,"body":"So everyone needs to, you believe that"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2434.585,"endTime":2441.149,"body":"these things are an ally for them."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2441.974,"endTime":2446.914,"body":"That this create value for them, make that"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2441.974,"endTime":2446.914,"body":"work easier or they work more valuable."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2447.274,"endTime":2451.144,"body":"and so it's really important"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2447.274,"endTime":2451.144,"body":"to present them the right way."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2451.144,"endTime":2456.794,"body":"If you are, let's say the advocate"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2451.144,"endTime":2456.794,"body":"of your team for metric program, it's"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2456.794,"endTime":2461.064,"body":"really important that you present them"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2456.794,"endTime":2461.064,"body":"to your developers or to your leadership"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2461.134,"endTime":2465.464,"body":"in a way that speaks to their needs,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2461.134,"endTime":2465.464,"body":"their pain points, because that can"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2465.464,"endTime":2467.098,"body":"be very powerful, but you have to."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2467.239,"endTime":2470.949,"body":"Also to, to understand what the"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2467.239,"endTime":2470.949,"body":"other parties, have when it comes"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2470.949,"endTime":2472.599,"body":"to concerns, what they want."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2472.879,"endTime":2477.339,"body":"so it's important to, to create a"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2472.879,"endTime":2477.339,"body":"cohesive, mood and culture around them,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2477.559,"endTime":2479.849,"body":"first of all, and then you don't have to."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2480.204,"endTime":2483.924,"body":"I think Boil the Ocean, which"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2480.204,"endTime":2483.924,"body":"is the, I think the most common"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2484.174,"endTime":2485.844,"body":"issue that teams run into."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2485.844,"endTime":2489.084,"body":"I mean, there are so many things"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2485.844,"endTime":2489.084,"body":"that you can measure automatically."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2489.324,"endTime":2493.444,"body":"right now, like you attach a"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2489.324,"endTime":2493.444,"body":"tool to your, to your CI CD and"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2493.454,"endTime":2495.404,"body":"you get all kinds of measures."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2495.644,"endTime":2500.279,"body":"but again, as we said before, you"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2495.644,"endTime":2500.279,"body":"can probably afford to take one thing"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2500.279,"endTime":2502.289,"body":"at a time in an intentional way."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2502.299,"endTime":2505.999,"body":"You can use these KPIs for good"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2502.299,"endTime":2505.999,"body":"conversations, irrespective"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2506.062,"endTime":2506.782,"body":"and whatnot."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2507.212,"endTime":2510.892,"body":"But if you want to improve anything,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2507.212,"endTime":2510.892,"body":"you have to design projects"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2510.892,"endTime":2512.852,"body":"and initiative to improve them."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2513.062,"endTime":2514.922,"body":"You have to measure them over time."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2514.972,"endTime":2515.342,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2515.352,"endTime":2516.962,"body":"You may set some sub target, but."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2517.377,"endTime":2519.747,"body":"For how many things you"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2517.377,"endTime":2519.747,"body":"can afford to do that."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2519.797,"endTime":2522.017,"body":"Maybe it's one thing"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2519.797,"endTime":2522.017,"body":"per quarter, you know,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2522.347,"endTime":2524.027,"body":"because you have also other things to do."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2524.377,"endTime":2528.847,"body":"So, start small, build"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2524.377,"endTime":2528.847,"body":"momentum and go step by step."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2528.877,"endTime":2531.757,"body":"And, I think you, you might"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2528.877,"endTime":2531.757,"body":"be on the right track."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2532.677,"endTime":2535.637,"body":"So metrics"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2532.677,"endTime":2535.637,"body":"becomes like a common language"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2535.907,"endTime":2536.277,"body":"for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2536.397,"endTime":2540.107,"body":"people to understand the shared problem"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2536.397,"endTime":2540.107,"body":"that they're experiencing and how they"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2540.107,"endTime":2541.957,"body":"can drive towards a solution together."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2541.957,"endTime":2544.327,"body":"But the metrics themselves"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2541.957,"endTime":2544.327,"body":"are not the solutions."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2544.327,"endTime":2550.017,"body":"You use the metrics to, put projects"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2544.327,"endTime":2550.017,"body":"in place to improve that efficiency"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2550.057,"endTime":2551.757,"body":"over time and to get those gains."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2552.187,"endTime":2556.247,"body":"And when that happens, then you have"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2552.187,"endTime":2556.247,"body":"a communication and collaboration"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2556.267,"endTime":2557.807,"body":"with your non technical leadership."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2558.077,"endTime":2561.047,"body":"This sounds a lot like our"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2558.077,"endTime":2561.047,"body":"flywheel from the very beginning,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2561.247,"endTime":2564.587,"body":"where you're helping build trust"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2561.247,"endTime":2564.587,"body":"with them and what you're doing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2564.857,"endTime":2568.147,"body":"And I can't think of a better way to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2564.857,"endTime":2568.147,"body":"build trust with someone than establishing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2568.307,"endTime":2571.657,"body":"a common language and a common"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2568.307,"endTime":2571.657,"body":"rapport about what you're both doing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2572.277,"endTime":2574.737,"body":"It's a healthy relationship, I think,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2572.277,"endTime":2574.737,"body":"too, for leadership to have with"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2574.737,"endTime":2576.537,"body":"engineering, like how they do with sales."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2576.897,"endTime":2579.997,"body":"something that we say all the time is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2576.897,"endTime":2579.997,"body":"like, you know, like a VP of sales,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2580.307,"endTime":2583.377,"body":"they know their pipeline, they know"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2580.307,"endTime":2583.377,"body":"their leads coming in, they know"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2583.397,"endTime":2584.717,"body":"what are the deals on the table."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2584.717,"endTime":2588.617,"body":"Like if you as an engineering VP, like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2584.717,"endTime":2588.617,"body":"you need to have those same common"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2588.617,"endTime":2590.697,"body":"language points ready to talk about."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2590.967,"endTime":2591.407,"body":"That's how you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2591.407,"endTime":2593.967,"body":"build trust within your organization."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2594.347,"endTime":2597.997,"body":"and so connecting all of these"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2594.347,"endTime":2597.997,"body":"parts together about it being,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2598.187,"endTime":2601.977,"body":"you know, building this trust with"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2598.187,"endTime":2601.977,"body":"non technical leadership, and then"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2601.987,"endTime":2604.007,"body":"that causes, them to have more."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2604.027,"endTime":2607.877,"body":"Buy in to have the practices they"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2604.027,"endTime":2607.877,"body":"want and ship their code quickly."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2607.877,"endTime":2609.507,"body":"All of this feeds into each other."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2609.877,"endTime":2613.357,"body":"it requires communicating"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2609.877,"endTime":2613.357,"body":"with like business terms too."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2613.617,"endTime":2619.417,"body":"So how can teams get that secure buy"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2613.617,"endTime":2619.417,"body":"in from their non technical leadership?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2619.427,"endTime":2621.187,"body":"Let's say that they're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2619.427,"endTime":2621.187,"body":"starting to establish these."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2621.202,"endTime":2624.352,"body":"Pieces, they're, they're starting to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2621.202,"endTime":2624.352,"body":"look at those really tough bottlenecks,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2624.352,"endTime":2629.005,"body":"like code review they're starting to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2624.352,"endTime":2629.005,"body":"establish a common vernacular on metrics"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2629.005,"endTime":2630.205,"body":"and how they're talking about it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2630.565,"endTime":2634.255,"body":"then now it's time to go and, and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2630.565,"endTime":2634.255,"body":"have that meeting with like your,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2634.255,"endTime":2636.655,"body":"your, your leadership team or the VPs."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2636.985,"endTime":2639.78,"body":"how do you start that and how can, how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2636.985,"endTime":2639.78,"body":"can everyone on the team contribute?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2640.135,"endTime":2642.145,"body":"To that, and it's a socialization thing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2642.145,"endTime":2643.345,"body":"How can engineers do it?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2643.345,"endTime":2645.235,"body":"How can the leaders and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2643.345,"endTime":2645.235,"body":"their team leads do it?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2645.235,"endTime":2646.405,"body":"How can their managers do it?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2646.655,"endTime":2648.695,"body":"how do you see it being like,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2646.655,"endTime":2648.695,"body":"what's the best playbook?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2649.5,"endTime":2651.7,"body":"So I'm not"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2649.5,"endTime":2651.7,"body":"sure there is a playbook."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2651.93,"endTime":2657.67,"body":"I think that this should be an open"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2651.93,"endTime":2657.67,"body":"conversation where the various levels"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2657.67,"endTime":2662.17,"body":"of the organization are able to talk"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2657.67,"endTime":2662.17,"body":"to each other and understand each other"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2662.17,"endTime":2664.08,"body":"concerns and what they care about."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2664.12,"endTime":2671.21,"body":"And so that, your measurement system,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2664.12,"endTime":2671.21,"body":"feeds into the things that really matter."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2671.637,"endTime":2673.817,"body":"I've rarely seen any."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2674.657,"endTime":2679.507,"body":"non technical leadership opposing,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2674.657,"endTime":2679.507,"body":"measuring more the engineering"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2679.507,"endTime":2684.057,"body":"process, because that's, as you said,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2679.507,"endTime":2684.057,"body":"usually a pain point that engineering"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2684.077,"endTime":2686.447,"body":"kind of does its own thing, right?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2686.777,"endTime":2687.057,"body":"but"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2687.057,"endTime":2690.377,"body":"it's also true that you can"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2687.057,"endTime":2690.377,"body":"measure things in a way that"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2690.487,"endTime":2692.177,"body":"doesn't matter to leadership."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2692.177,"endTime":2695.197,"body":"I mean, they don't care how many"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2692.177,"endTime":2695.197,"body":"comments you do per day, right?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2695.197,"endTime":2696.807,"body":"And many other things."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2697.307,"endTime":2700.047,"body":"So I think, when it comes to."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2700.792,"endTime":2707.462,"body":"The highest level usage of this data, so"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2700.792,"endTime":2707.462,"body":"the usage that matters to your CTO, to"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2707.462,"endTime":2713.222,"body":"your, chief of product or whatnot,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2707.462,"endTime":2713.222,"body":"it's really important to understand"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2713.492,"endTime":2715.202,"body":"what these people care about."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2715.212,"endTime":2719.682,"body":"What do they Want engineering"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2715.212,"endTime":2719.682,"body":"to achieve and how would they"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2719.702,"endTime":2721.462,"body":"like to partner with engineer?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2721.852,"endTime":2724.552,"body":"do they care about, shipping fast?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2724.612,"endTime":2729.642,"body":"Because maybe you are at the stage of your"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2724.612,"endTime":2729.642,"body":"product where you, you have to validate"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2729.672,"endTime":2734.242,"body":"many hypotheses, find product market fit,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2729.672,"endTime":2734.242,"body":"you have to go as fast as possible, right?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2734.979,"endTime":2740.559,"body":"Or, or do they care about predictability,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2734.979,"endTime":2740.559,"body":"about upholding your commitments"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2740.559,"endTime":2741.899,"body":"and shipping things on time?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2742.229,"endTime":2746.599,"body":"Because maybe you are more on a schedule"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2742.229,"endTime":2746.599,"body":"where, you need longer plans and"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2746.599,"endTime":2748.679,"body":"these plans need to be, maintained."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2748.939,"endTime":2750.979,"body":"So it really depends."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2751.009,"endTime":2756.509,"body":"And I think nobody can just go"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2751.009,"endTime":2756.509,"body":"and on, on their own, measure"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2756.509,"endTime":2761.139,"body":"things and then report them to"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2756.509,"endTime":2761.139,"body":"others, without them knowing, right?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2761.399,"endTime":2765.889,"body":"And the best, programs are always"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2761.399,"endTime":2765.889,"body":"well shared and understood by"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2765.979,"endTime":2767.659,"body":"people across the whole ladder."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2768.725,"endTime":2771.183,"body":"know, I think what"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2768.725,"endTime":2771.183,"body":"we're really getting to is the core"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2771.183,"endTime":2775.743,"body":"of that sort of top line bullet point"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2771.183,"endTime":2775.743,"body":"we had where engineering, successful"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2775.743,"endTime":2779.843,"body":"engineering teams are well respected"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2775.743,"endTime":2779.843,"body":"with non technical stakeholders, and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2779.873,"endTime":2782.853,"body":"the reality is that, you know, I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2779.873,"endTime":2782.853,"body":"what we're really articulating here is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2782.853,"endTime":2786.745,"body":"that, you know, It's really a two way"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2782.853,"endTime":2786.745,"body":"street, like engineering leaders need to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2786.745,"endTime":2790.315,"body":"be able to communicate in business terms"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2786.745,"endTime":2790.315,"body":"and then the business needs to be able"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2790.315,"endTime":2792.385,"body":"to communicate their expectations back"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2792.695,"endTime":2794.675,"body":"using like sort of this common language."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2795.025,"endTime":2797.845,"body":"And he mentions, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2795.025,"endTime":2797.845,"body":"it often, it just seems like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2797.845,"endTime":2799.355,"body":"engineering does its own thing."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2799.685,"endTime":2803.475,"body":"And the reality is that often engineering"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2799.685,"endTime":2803.475,"body":"does sometimes have to just do its own"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2803.475,"endTime":2807.45,"body":"thing because it has to do things like,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2803.475,"endTime":2807.45,"body":"you know, Keeping the lights on and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2807.55,"endTime":2810.57,"body":"reducing tech debt and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2807.55,"endTime":2810.57,"body":"improving developer experience."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2810.58,"endTime":2815.61,"body":"So, you know, what do you think is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2810.58,"endTime":2815.61,"body":"the key here for these engineering"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2815.61,"endTime":2820.43,"body":"leaders to like secure that buy in for"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2815.61,"endTime":2820.43,"body":"long term improvements into the things"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2820.43,"endTime":2822.41,"body":"that, engineering only cares about,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2823.214,"endTime":2826.984,"body":"I think that when it"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2823.214,"endTime":2826.984,"body":"comes to these things, visibility and"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2826.984,"endTime":2832.894,"body":"transparency into these issues, for"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2826.984,"endTime":2832.894,"body":"example, given by hard data provided by"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2832.914,"endTime":2835.444,"body":"this kind of metrics is really helpful."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2835.844,"endTime":2841.454,"body":"when engineering managers say that, the"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2835.844,"endTime":2841.454,"body":"team is drowning in tech depth and KTLO"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2841.464,"endTime":2846.384,"body":"work, it's one thing to say that like"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2841.464,"endTime":2846.384,"body":"anecdotally or based on the last sprint."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2846.394,"endTime":2851.484,"body":"Another thing is to bring up the data,"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2846.394,"endTime":2851.484,"body":"that shows that like 60 percent of"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2851.484,"endTime":2856.344,"body":"the tickets go into maintenance and"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2851.484,"endTime":2856.344,"body":"the team has only like 20 percent"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2856.344,"endTime":2860.614,"body":"of the time, to work on new features"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2856.344,"endTime":2860.614,"body":"or improvements, for example, right."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2860.874,"endTime":2861.464,"body":"and then."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2861.694,"endTime":2865.924,"body":"The conversation, of course, doesn't"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2861.694,"endTime":2865.924,"body":"stop there because you have to advocate"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2865.924,"endTime":2870.184,"body":"for the value of doing, technical"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2865.924,"endTime":2870.184,"body":"work and repaying technical debt."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2870.204,"endTime":2873.814,"body":"And you have to answer continuously"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2870.204,"endTime":2873.814,"body":"the question like, and now what?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2873.884,"endTime":2874.534,"body":"And now what?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2874.634,"endTime":2874.924,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2874.924,"endTime":2878.534,"body":"And you can talk about product"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2874.924,"endTime":2878.534,"body":"enablement, how the things you do"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2878.534,"endTime":2881.944,"body":"enable more things on the product"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2878.534,"endTime":2881.944,"body":"side and free up people time."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2882.354,"endTime":2885.724,"body":"And I mean, when there are"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2882.354,"endTime":2885.724,"body":"good relationships between"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2885.734,"endTime":2888.124,"body":"leaders and people are savvy."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2888.359,"endTime":2892.319,"body":"It's rare that these things go"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2888.359,"endTime":2892.319,"body":"unheard, but it's, it's important"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2892.329,"endTime":2895.479,"body":"to present them in a way that is"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2892.329,"endTime":2895.479,"body":"believable and that speaks to."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2896.069,"endTime":2897.289,"body":"To the, to the business needs."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2897.289,"endTime":2900.899,"body":"So what can we achieve by doing"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2897.289,"endTime":2900.899,"body":"this kind of technical work?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2900.899,"endTime":2904.429,"body":"Because I don't believe in technical"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2900.899,"endTime":2904.429,"body":"work, of course, for, for its own sake."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2904.429,"endTime":2908.259,"body":"I don't think you should have like a"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2904.429,"endTime":2908.259,"body":"technical roadmap, quote unquote, right?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2908.259,"endTime":2912.839,"body":"That is like separated from, from"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2908.259,"endTime":2912.839,"body":"everything else and has its own agenda."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2913.209,"endTime":2917.309,"body":"you should speak to the, to, to the"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2913.209,"endTime":2917.309,"body":"value that you create, for the business."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2917.309,"endTime":2921.629,"body":"And sometimes it's harder to do when"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2917.309,"endTime":2921.629,"body":"it's pure, you know, under the hood work."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2921.879,"endTime":2925.949,"body":"but the other Always angles that you"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2921.879,"endTime":2925.949,"body":"can, you can leverage, especially if"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":2925.949,"endTime":2927.739,"body":"you have the hard data about them."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2929.175,"endTime":2929.445,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2929.485,"endTime":2933.065,"body":"I mean, I think if you ask any sort of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2929.485,"endTime":2933.065,"body":"like non technical stakeholder, like,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2933.065,"endTime":2934.455,"body":"what do you want out of engineering?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2934.455,"endTime":2936.725,"body":"They're just going to give"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2934.455,"endTime":2936.725,"body":"you a very simple answer."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2936.725,"endTime":2938.695,"body":"And that is new features and improvements."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2939.135,"endTime":2939.335,"body":"That's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2939.875,"endTime":2940.925,"body":"all we want, you know?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2941.385,"endTime":2944.475,"body":"And yeah, you need to be able to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2941.385,"endTime":2944.475,"body":"predictably deliver that, but you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2944.475,"endTime":2949.225,"body":"can't just always do new features and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2944.475,"endTime":2949.225,"body":"enhancements, you know, you have to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2949.225,"endTime":2951.005,"body":"also be doing the infrastructure things"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2951.455,"endTime":2953.865,"body":"behind the scenes that that empower those."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2954.659,"endTime":2956.499,"body":"Which is the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2954.659,"endTime":2956.499,"body":"power of that common language."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2956.519,"endTime":2959.489,"body":"Because then you can express that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2956.519,"endTime":2959.489,"body":"to your non technical leadership"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2959.489,"endTime":2960.279,"body":"and help them understand."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2960.279,"endTime":2962.289,"body":"And maybe they don't need to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2960.279,"endTime":2962.289,"body":"get drowned in all the details."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2962.289,"endTime":2965.189,"body":"Like, how many XYZs per day"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2962.289,"endTime":2965.189,"body":"you're doing on all of those"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2965.199,"endTime":2965.719,"body":"things."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2965.819,"endTime":2968.249,"body":"That may be a matter internally,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2965.819,"endTime":2968.249,"body":"but it doesn't matter to them."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2968.259,"endTime":2972.249,"body":"All they need to do is understand how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2968.259,"endTime":2972.249,"body":"that impacts your ability to ship features"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2972.249,"endTime":2974.349,"body":"faster, or to address things faster."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2974.719,"endTime":2976.979,"body":"That's a really great way to kind"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2974.719,"endTime":2976.979,"body":"of start wrapping up, I think,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2976.979,"endTime":2979.419,"body":"our discussion on the report."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2979.449,"endTime":2983.179,"body":"And I want to start by saying, Luca, this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2979.449,"endTime":2983.179,"body":"has been a really insightful conversation."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2983.179,"endTime":2986.279,"body":"You bring so much expertise, and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2983.179,"endTime":2986.279,"body":"you explain it so eloquently."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2986.489,"endTime":2989.559,"body":"I think there's so many like nuggets"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2986.489,"endTime":2989.559,"body":"of advice in this conversation that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2989.559,"endTime":2993.869,"body":"we've had, that teams can apply"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2989.559,"endTime":2993.869,"body":"moving forward to get that little"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2993.879,"endTime":2995.479,"body":"bit of extra velocity, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2995.479,"endTime":2998.139,"body":"Turn that negative flywheel"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2995.479,"endTime":2998.139,"body":"into a positive one."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2999.039,"endTime":3002.849,"body":"And the report itself, it gives"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2999.039,"endTime":3002.849,"body":"leaders both the data and the roadmap."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3002.869,"endTime":3009.649,"body":"The report itself, you know, our"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3002.869,"endTime":3009.649,"body":"listeners, if I really encourage"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3009.649,"endTime":3011.649,"body":"you to check it out, it'll be"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3009.649,"endTime":3011.649,"body":"available in our show notes."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3011.659,"endTime":3016.019,"body":"So definitely go and get a copy of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3011.659,"endTime":3016.019,"body":"your report so you can follow along"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3016.019,"endTime":3017.419,"body":"with what we talked about today."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3017.745,"endTime":3021.145,"body":"but Luca, you know, where can"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3017.745,"endTime":3021.145,"body":"people go to learn more about you?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3021.175,"endTime":3022.745,"body":"Can you tell us a little"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3021.175,"endTime":3022.745,"body":"bit about refactoring?"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":3023.545,"endTime":3025.328,"body":"Yeah, first of"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":3023.545,"endTime":3025.328,"body":"all, thank for hosting me."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":3025.328,"endTime":3026.648,"body":"It's been a great conversation."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":3026.648,"endTime":3031.138,"body":"So refactoring is my own newsletter"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":3026.648,"endTime":3031.138,"body":"and podcast and it goes out weekly"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":3031.138,"endTime":3035.858,"body":"to more than 100, 000 engineers and"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":3031.138,"endTime":3035.858,"body":"managers and made possible this whole"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":3035.888,"endTime":3039.918,"body":"work because this report started as a"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":3035.888,"endTime":3039.918,"body":"joint survey between the refactoring"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":3039.918,"endTime":3041.628,"body":"community and the LinearB community."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":3041.988,"endTime":3047.068,"body":"And so you can find the refactoring"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":3041.988,"endTime":3047.068,"body":"newsletter at refactoring."},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":3047.098,"endTime":3052.373,"body":"fm There are more than 300 articles"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":3047.098,"endTime":3052.373,"body":"written on engineering and management"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":3052.383,"endTime":3056.953,"body":"topics, including the latest report"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":3052.383,"endTime":3056.953,"body":"on engineering maturity and how teams"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":3056.953,"endTime":3061.083,"body":"are using data to improve, which is"},{"speaker":"Luca Rossi","startTime":3056.953,"endTime":3061.083,"body":"what we have been talking about today."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3062.178,"endTime":3064.478,"body":"We're big fans"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3062.178,"endTime":3064.478,"body":"of refactoring and we definitely"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3064.478,"endTime":3065.568,"body":"encourage everyone to check it out."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3066.159,"endTime":3069.079,"body":"thank you so much"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3066.159,"endTime":3069.079,"body":"again for joining us today, Luca."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3069.409,"endTime":3072.869,"body":"Make sure to subscribe to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3069.409,"endTime":3072.869,"body":"the Dev Interrupted podcast"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3072.979,"endTime":3075.119,"body":"and newsletter on Substack."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3075.259,"endTime":3079.169,"body":"Share this episode and check out, our"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3075.259,"endTime":3079.169,"body":"Substack newsletter for more insights"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3079.169,"endTime":3083.029,"body":"from today's discussion, including the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3079.169,"endTime":3083.029,"body":"full report that we discussed here today."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3083.449,"endTime":3085.229,"body":"That's it for this week's Dev Interrupted."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3085.409,"endTime":3086.199,"body":"We'll see you next time."}]}