{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":8.622,"endTime":9.882,"body":"Welcome"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":8.622,"endTime":9.882,"body":"to Dev Interrupted."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":10.152,"endTime":11.649,"body":"I'm your host,  Ben Lloyd Pearson."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":11.94,"endTime":13.51,"body":"And I'm"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":11.94,"endTime":13.51,"body":"your host, Andrew Ziegler."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":13.79,"endTime":17.06,"body":"And, Ben, what's on your mind this week?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":17.812,"endTime":18.102,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":18.102,"endTime":19.982,"body":"So I have something to confess."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":20.082,"endTime":22.452,"body":"I have a credit addiction."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":22.98,"endTime":23.28,"body":"Oh,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":23.472,"endTime":27.952,"body":"up for a new AI"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":23.472,"endTime":27.952,"body":"service that promised all sorts of agents"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":27.952,"endTime":29.532,"body":"and other things that would do various."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":29.862,"endTime":31.482,"body":"Tasks and solve problems for me."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":31.482,"endTime":34.432,"body":"And they gave me a whole bunch of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":31.482,"endTime":34.432,"body":"monthly credits to like hire these"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":34.452,"endTime":39.642,"body":"agents, but it really sent me down"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":34.452,"endTime":39.642,"body":"this like rabbit hole of like the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":39.642,"endTime":42.342,"body":"future of work and how we value things."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":42.432,"endTime":47.222,"body":"I think like, are we going to be"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":42.432,"endTime":47.222,"body":"tokenizing ourselves or our work or our"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":47.222,"endTime":49.217,"body":"tasks that we, carry out every week?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":49.217,"endTime":53.437,"body":"Like basically everything's like priced"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":49.217,"endTime":53.437,"body":"in tokens now and hard work costs more"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":53.437,"endTime":57.067,"body":"tokens, but you never really actually know"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":53.437,"endTime":57.067,"body":"what the cost is until like the prompts."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":57.122,"endTime":63.242,"body":"So, yeah, somehow I find myself"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":57.122,"endTime":63.242,"body":"wondering, like, how can I maximize"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":63.242,"endTime":64.692,"body":"the amount of tokens that I spend?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":64.692,"endTime":67.082,"body":"Because, you know, spending"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":64.692,"endTime":67.082,"body":"more tokens means you're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":67.082,"endTime":68.532,"body":"accomplishing more work, right?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":68.632,"endTime":71.616,"body":"Like, But anyways, maybe we'll"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":68.632,"endTime":71.616,"body":"talk about this more later."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":71.716,"endTime":73.426,"body":"Uh, let's dive into this week's news."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":73.426,"endTime":74.955,"body":"Heh,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":75.074,"endTime":79.823,"body":"into this week's news, I"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":75.074,"endTime":79.823,"body":"got a great one about OpenAI's CEO Sam"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":79.824,"endTime":84.894,"body":"Altman in a recent Reddit AMA, but before"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":79.824,"endTime":84.894,"body":"we get there, this token thing you're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":84.894,"endTime":86.484,"body":"talking about is stuck in my brain."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":86.574,"endTime":90.654,"body":"It's so funny to me because if you think"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":86.574,"endTime":90.654,"body":"about it in some ways, when you go and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":90.794,"endTime":93.444,"body":"you have your tokens and you're trying"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":90.794,"endTime":93.444,"body":"to get the result you want, it kind"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":93.444,"endTime":95.414,"body":"of becomes like the modern loot box."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":95.664,"endTime":98.853,"body":"Like you have all these tokens and you're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":95.664,"endTime":98.853,"body":"trying to get that like rare shiny thing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":98.854,"endTime":101.764,"body":"It only comes out every once"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":98.854,"endTime":101.764,"body":"in a while, so you gotta put a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":101.764,"endTime":103.054,"body":"lot of tokens in the machine."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":103.574,"endTime":107.124,"body":"And so, the idea that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":103.574,"endTime":107.124,"body":"doing more work, spending more"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":107.124,"endTime":110.204,"body":"tokens means that you're more"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":107.124,"endTime":110.204,"body":"valuable, that's, that's fascinating."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":110.214,"endTime":110.764,"body":"Maybe it's about the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":110.764,"endTime":114.964,"body":"things that you can't get out of the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":110.764,"endTime":114.964,"body":"machine that you put the tokens into."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":115.314,"endTime":117.134,"body":"I wonder how"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":115.314,"endTime":117.134,"body":"many tokens it's going to cost for"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":117.144,"endTime":121.104,"body":"me to have an agent that figures"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":117.144,"endTime":121.104,"body":"out how to best spend my tokens."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":121.842,"endTime":124.872,"body":"Well, I really hope that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":121.842,"endTime":124.872,"body":"people let us know in the comments on"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":124.882,"endTime":128.082,"body":"Substack this week about how many tokens"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":124.882,"endTime":128.082,"body":"that they think that that would be worth."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":128.642,"endTime":130.672,"body":"But now to move on to this week's news."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":130.672,"endTime":134.581,"body":"I do want to cover an"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":130.672,"endTime":134.581,"body":"interesting one from Reddit AMA."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":134.582,"endTime":136.522,"body":"Now we all know Reddit AMAs, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":136.522,"endTime":137.762,"body":"Where somebody in a high"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":137.762,"endTime":141.412,"body":"position somewhere, you know, they"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":137.762,"endTime":141.412,"body":"descend into the throng of the masses."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":141.762,"endTime":143.588,"body":"And they answer questions"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":141.762,"endTime":143.588,"body":"for the common folk."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":143.638,"endTime":146.218,"body":"and we had one last week, from Sam Altman."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":146.268,"endTime":150.768,"body":"And there was someone who asked, would"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":146.268,"endTime":150.768,"body":"you consider releasing some model weights"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":150.768,"endTime":152.668,"body":"and publishing some research about it?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":152.938,"endTime":157.348,"body":"And in this AMA, you know, Sam indicated"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":152.938,"endTime":157.348,"body":"that he thinks that they're on the wrong"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":157.348,"endTime":161.708,"body":"side of history right now when it comes to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":157.348,"endTime":161.708,"body":"open sourcing models and technology around"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":161.738,"endTime":166.538,"body":"AI, and indicated that that's something"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":161.738,"endTime":166.538,"body":"that they might do in the future."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":166.798,"endTime":169.838,"body":"Now, of course, you know, in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":166.798,"endTime":169.838,"body":"a Reddit AMA, you should take"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":169.858,"endTime":171.838,"body":"everything with a grain of salt,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":172.128,"endTime":174.908,"body":"but it definitely sparked a lot of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":172.128,"endTime":174.908,"body":"interesting conversations online."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":175.65,"endTime":178.59,"body":"Yeah, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":175.65,"endTime":178.59,"body":"honestly, my opinion is that the risk of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":178.59,"endTime":183.52,"body":"open sourcing these models and some of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":178.59,"endTime":183.52,"body":"these weights is probably extremely low."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":183.99,"endTime":187.18,"body":"Like the real commercial value comes"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":183.99,"endTime":187.18,"body":"from all of the training and the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":187.19,"endTime":189.3,"body":"reasoning that they add to these models."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":189.3,"endTime":190.91,"body":"So, I do kind of think that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":191.21,"endTime":194.1,"body":"Agree that he's probably is on the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":191.21,"endTime":194.1,"body":"wrong side of history and we are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":194.1,"endTime":197.96,"body":"already seeing a lot of innovation"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":194.1,"endTime":197.96,"body":"and rapid iteration coming out"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":197.96,"endTime":200.36,"body":"of the open source space on this."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":200.36,"endTime":202.58,"body":"But so yeah, I kind of feel"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":200.36,"endTime":202.58,"body":"like this is a no brainer,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":202.753,"endTime":205.383,"body":"when it comes to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":202.753,"endTime":205.383,"body":"the open sourcing AI, you know,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":205.383,"endTime":206.873,"body":"it's a complicated formula."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":206.923,"endTime":210.553,"body":"It's not like other open source"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":206.923,"endTime":210.553,"body":"technologies in the past where you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":210.553,"endTime":214.053,"body":"release the source code, you release"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":210.553,"endTime":214.053,"body":"it under, you know, a license that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":214.053,"endTime":216.863,"body":"may or may not be permissive, that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":214.053,"endTime":216.863,"body":"may or may not let someone build"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":216.863,"endTime":218.453,"body":"something of commercial value on it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":218.833,"endTime":221.953,"body":"But ultimately, when you release those"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":218.833,"endTime":221.953,"body":"things, someone else can replicate"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":221.953,"endTime":225.863,"body":"your success and carry the, you know,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":221.953,"endTime":225.863,"body":"The torch of that technology forward."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":225.913,"endTime":229.983,"body":"But with AI, when you open source it,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":225.913,"endTime":229.983,"body":"it's a little more complex because"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":229.983,"endTime":234.693,"body":"you might, open source the model and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":229.983,"endTime":234.693,"body":"even maybe the weights that you used."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":234.693,"endTime":239.753,"body":"But if you don't open source the training"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":234.693,"endTime":239.753,"body":"code that you use or the hyper parameters"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":239.753,"endTime":243.833,"body":"you use to get it into that state,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":239.753,"endTime":243.833,"body":"or if you don't share your training"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":243.833,"endTime":247.723,"body":"data so that folks can understand what"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":243.833,"endTime":247.723,"body":"went into the model and then maybe"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":247.723,"endTime":249.613,"body":"further train it, then you're only."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":249.678,"endTime":251.788,"body":"Giving them a really small"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":249.678,"endTime":251.788,"body":"part of the equation."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":252.008,"endTime":255.448,"body":"And when companies release their"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":252.008,"endTime":255.448,"body":"technology in that way and call it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":255.478,"endTime":259.358,"body":"open source, they still hold all the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":255.478,"endTime":259.358,"body":"keys because they're the ones that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":259.358,"endTime":262.978,"body":"can run that model, continue to train"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":259.358,"endTime":262.978,"body":"it and make it succeed at scale."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":263.308,"endTime":267.308,"body":"So it's a very complicated, conversation"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":263.308,"endTime":267.308,"body":"within the open source communities right"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":267.308,"endTime":269.298,"body":"now about what that definition even means."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":270.6,"endTime":274.05,"body":"a story that I've"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":270.6,"endTime":274.05,"body":"been reading this week, was from, it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":274.05,"endTime":277.91,"body":"actually a really cool, like, project"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":274.05,"endTime":277.91,"body":"from this gentleman named Chris Keel,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":278.22,"endTime":280.14,"body":"who's a software engineer at Amazon."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":280.52,"endTime":284.9,"body":"and he published this, article on his"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":280.52,"endTime":284.9,"body":"personal blog where it's titled Software"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":284.9,"endTime":288.19,"body":"Development Topics I've Changed My"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":284.9,"endTime":288.19,"body":"Mind On After 10 Years in the Industry."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":288.59,"endTime":289.435,"body":"and he actually did this pretty well."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":289.655,"endTime":292.895,"body":"Previously, four years ago when"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":289.655,"endTime":292.895,"body":"he was at six years in his career."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":293.275,"endTime":298.085,"body":"And it's a really just cool list that, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":293.275,"endTime":298.085,"body":"know, sort of serves as a document of like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":298.555,"endTime":302.185,"body":"where he is personally on a, on a journey,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":298.555,"endTime":302.185,"body":"but also shares a lot of like interesting"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":302.185,"endTime":303.645,"body":"little tidbits that he's picked up."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":304.155,"endTime":307.035,"body":"And there were two that actually"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":304.155,"endTime":307.035,"body":"stood out that he changed his mind"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":307.035,"endTime":309.228,"body":"on, first simple is not a given."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":309.268,"endTime":310.498,"body":"It takes constant work."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":310.608,"endTime":313.668,"body":"And second, most programming"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":310.608,"endTime":313.668,"body":"should be done long before a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":313.668,"endTime":315.258,"body":"single line of code is written."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":315.548,"endTime":319.198,"body":"And I actually kind of think maybe"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":315.548,"endTime":319.198,"body":"these two points are related because,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":319.218,"endTime":323.168,"body":"you know, you think good planning,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":319.218,"endTime":323.168,"body":"good preparation takes a lot of time."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":323.238,"endTime":327.238,"body":"And, but it's something that really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":323.238,"endTime":327.238,"body":"has like a long term efficiency gains"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":327.238,"endTime":329.228,"body":"that you create if you do it right."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":329.385,"endTime":332.725,"body":"the thing that I kind of take away"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":329.385,"endTime":332.725,"body":"from this is, you know, like habits in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":332.725,"endTime":336.665,"body":"particular can be a really powerful way"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":332.725,"endTime":336.665,"body":"of making these types of improvements."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":336.665,"endTime":340.735,"body":"Like if you're habitually simplifying"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":336.665,"endTime":340.735,"body":"things in your life, like, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":340.735,"endTime":344.505,"body":"it's a really great way to just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":340.735,"endTime":344.505,"body":"keep accumulating like benefits."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":345.513,"endTime":348.103,"body":"And also just"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":345.513,"endTime":348.103,"body":"habitually reflecting on things that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":348.103,"endTime":349.253,"body":"you're learning as you're going."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":349.273,"endTime":350.923,"body":"This is a great article from Chris."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":350.923,"endTime":354.833,"body":"I love the idea of him reflecting"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":350.923,"endTime":354.833,"body":"year after year on practices within"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":354.833,"endTime":358.653,"body":"engineering that he agrees with, that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":354.833,"endTime":358.653,"body":"he doesn't agree with, and seeing how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":358.653,"endTime":360.603,"body":"his own sentiment changes over time."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":360.623,"endTime":361.933,"body":"You know, I keep a daily journal."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":361.973,"endTime":365.673,"body":"I'm going to steal this idea for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":361.973,"endTime":365.673,"body":"myself and re evaluate how I think"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":365.673,"endTime":368.333,"body":"about, you know, technology over time."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":368.593,"endTime":370.993,"body":"I think it makes for a really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":368.593,"endTime":370.993,"body":"great reflection exercise."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":371.403,"endTime":374.923,"body":"And the things that stood out to me in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":371.403,"endTime":374.923,"body":"his, roundup, this, you know, for this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":374.933,"endTime":378.603,"body":"article were very similar to yours,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":374.933,"endTime":378.603,"body":"an opinion of his that changed is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":378.603,"endTime":382.603,"body":"that there's no pride in managing or"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":378.603,"endTime":382.603,"body":"understanding complexity, which really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":382.603,"endTime":387.013,"body":"ties into your idea of simple is not a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":382.603,"endTime":387.013,"body":"given, but what I love about, like, the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":387.013,"endTime":390.743,"body":"nuance of this is that there's no pride"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":387.013,"endTime":390.743,"body":"in that, you know, if you create an"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":390.743,"endTime":395.033,"body":"incredibly complex beast that you, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":390.743,"endTime":395.033,"body":"know, maintain all the knowledge and you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":395.033,"endTime":398.188,"body":"have to The Keys, and you understand how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":395.033,"endTime":398.188,"body":"it works on an intricate level, you know,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":398.188,"endTime":401.808,"body":"you're really just creating a nightmare"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":398.188,"endTime":401.808,"body":"for your future self because that becomes"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":401.808,"endTime":404.468,"body":"very hard to manage and ultimately scale."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":404.738,"endTime":404.858,"body":"And"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":404.858,"endTime":407.118,"body":"there's no real pride in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":404.858,"endTime":407.118,"body":"building things that way."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":407.415,"endTime":410.495,"body":"yeah, you're reminding"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":407.415,"endTime":410.495,"body":"me of a time that I had to understand"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":410.495,"endTime":415.225,"body":"some Microsoft API documentation and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":410.495,"endTime":415.225,"body":"it was the most convoluted, complex"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":415.245,"endTime":417.235,"body":"thing I think I've ever experienced."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":417.808,"endTime":420.458,"body":"And someone would"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":417.808,"endTime":420.458,"body":"probably be really proud of that, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":420.458,"endTime":420.918,"body":"know?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":420.938,"endTime":421.208,"body":"But there's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":421.245,"endTime":424.595,"body":"well I assure"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":421.245,"endTime":424.595,"body":"you, I, I assure you, I, I felt no"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":424.605,"endTime":427.205,"body":"pride trying to understand this mess."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":429.028,"endTime":431.598,"body":"And something about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":429.028,"endTime":431.598,"body":"it from his lineup that I like too"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":431.598,"endTime":434.848,"body":"was about what didn't change, an"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":431.598,"endTime":434.848,"body":"opinion of his that stayed the same,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":434.878,"endTime":437.858,"body":"you know, he stayed firm on this,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":434.878,"endTime":437.858,"body":"which is code coverage is absolutely"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":437.868,"endTime":439.798,"body":"nothing to do with code quality."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":440.048,"endTime":443.328,"body":"We're actually having an upcoming guest"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":440.048,"endTime":443.328,"body":"on the show from diff blue, who's talking"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":443.328,"endTime":445.518,"body":"about code quality versus code coverage."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":445.798,"endTime":447.778,"body":"so definitely stick around for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":445.798,"endTime":447.778,"body":"a future episode where we're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":447.778,"endTime":449.518,"body":"going to dive more into that one."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":449.788,"endTime":451.328,"body":"cause I totally agree with Chris here."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":451.869,"endTime":453.569,"body":"So what else"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":451.869,"endTime":453.569,"body":"have you been reading about, Andrew?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":453.991,"endTime":457.661,"body":"yeah, I read an"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":453.991,"endTime":457.661,"body":"article about how chat is a bad UI"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":457.661,"endTime":461.441,"body":"pattern for a lot of development"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":457.661,"endTime":461.441,"body":"tools, which really stood out to me."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":461.461,"endTime":464.241,"body":"There's a conversation I know that many"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":461.461,"endTime":464.241,"body":"folks have had about like, what's the best"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":464.241,"endTime":466.391,"body":"format to be working with a tool like AI?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":466.751,"endTime":471.721,"body":"And up until now, we've kind of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":466.751,"endTime":471.721,"body":"been shoving LLMs into chat windows,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":471.791,"endTime":475.111,"body":"because that was the easiest way to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":471.791,"endTime":475.111,"body":"start extracting immediate value."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":475.401,"endTime":479.521,"body":"But It causes us to get stuck,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":475.401,"endTime":479.521,"body":"right, in this mental perception."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":479.541,"endTime":485.781,"body":"And now the whole world is trained on LLM"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":479.541,"endTime":485.781,"body":"equals chat interface, which is just one"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":485.781,"endTime":487.951,"body":"way of interfacing with the technology."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":488.301,"endTime":492.091,"body":"And, you know, this reminded me actually"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":488.301,"endTime":492.091,"body":"of another article I read on artificial"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":492.091,"endTime":495.601,"body":"ignorance, a really great substack that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":492.091,"endTime":495.601,"body":"I highly recommend everyone check out,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":496.361,"endTime":502.181,"body":"where that talked in November about how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":496.361,"endTime":502.181,"body":"when we're forcing AI Chat windows, we're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":502.181,"endTime":506.861,"body":"failing to capture its true potential,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":502.181,"endTime":506.861,"body":"and that holds true for things like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":506.861,"endTime":508.651,"body":"development tools with AI as well."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":509.498,"endTime":513.158,"body":"You know, I feel like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":509.498,"endTime":513.158,"body":"we have pigeonholed it into this Into"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":513.158,"endTime":517.418,"body":"a chatbot because it is so effective at"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":513.158,"endTime":517.418,"body":"that model, you know, like being able to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":517.428,"endTime":522.158,"body":"talk to any sort of like knowledge base is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":517.428,"endTime":522.158,"body":"like been pretty revolutionary actually."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":522.599,"endTime":526.157,"body":"you know, I think a company that really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":522.599,"endTime":526.157,"body":"understands this super well is Cursor."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":526.187,"endTime":527.377,"body":"Like they come to mind."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":527.427,"endTime":530.147,"body":"and you know, there's been some"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":527.427,"endTime":530.147,"body":"rumors recently, that haven't"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":530.147,"endTime":532.907,"body":"been, I don't believe they've"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":530.147,"endTime":532.907,"body":"been confirmed, but there's rumors"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":532.907,"endTime":536.307,"body":"that they are now the fastest"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":532.907,"endTime":536.307,"body":"company to ever scale to a hundred."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":536.617,"endTime":537.757,"body":"A million ARR."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":538.087,"endTime":540.817,"body":"it was, I think like 12"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":538.087,"endTime":540.817,"body":"months or something like that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":541.397,"endTime":545.137,"body":"and I think really what the key to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":541.397,"endTime":545.137,"body":"their success is that they do have like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":545.147,"endTime":549.407,"body":"varying degrees of interfaces that are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":545.147,"endTime":549.407,"body":"sort of like scaled to the level of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":549.407,"endTime":551.027,"body":"challenge that you're trying to resolve."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":551.027,"endTime":554.487,"body":"So sometimes it's like just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":551.027,"endTime":554.487,"body":"trying to predict like your next"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":554.497,"endTime":557.277,"body":"step, like the things that you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":554.497,"endTime":557.277,"body":"want to type in the next moment."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":557.637,"endTime":561.577,"body":"but other times you're doing things like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":557.637,"endTime":561.577,"body":"selecting a section of code base and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":561.902,"endTime":566.022,"body":"Having a conversation with the model about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":561.902,"endTime":566.022,"body":"how to change it, and, you know, sort of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":566.072,"endTime":570.782,"body":"iterating on it based on a conversation,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":566.072,"endTime":570.782,"body":"this really ties in well to today's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":570.782,"endTime":574.702,"body":"episode because there's one of my favorite"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":570.782,"endTime":574.702,"body":"moments from this episode was actually"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":574.712,"endTime":579.412,"body":"from some audience engagement we have just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":574.712,"endTime":579.412,"body":"as a little foreshadowing there, but Rob"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":579.422,"endTime":584.442,"body":"Zuber, the CTO at CircleCI, touched on"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":579.422,"endTime":584.442,"body":"this point really well and he provided a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":584.442,"endTime":586.902,"body":"great example where, you know, he said it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":587.072,"endTime":591.722,"body":"Today, we asked these GPT models to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":587.072,"endTime":591.722,"body":"create a web page based on certain"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":591.722,"endTime":593.892,"body":"criteria, like certain user criteria."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":594.312,"endTime":599.412,"body":"Tomorrow, we may actually just have an"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":594.312,"endTime":599.412,"body":"API on your website listening for users"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":599.412,"endTime":603.942,"body":"to show up that can create completely"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":599.412,"endTime":603.942,"body":"custom content in real time based on"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":603.942,"endTime":605.326,"body":"what that user is trying to express."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":605.667,"endTime":606.317,"body":"To achieve."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":606.327,"endTime":610.237,"body":"So it's less, you know, like we"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":606.327,"endTime":610.237,"body":"may have to completely shift our"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":610.237,"endTime":614.537,"body":"perception of how we integrate AI"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":610.237,"endTime":614.537,"body":"into all of our, our platforms."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":614.537,"endTime":617.517,"body":"So you definitely want to stick around"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":614.537,"endTime":617.517,"body":"to hear about that in the episode."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":617.92,"endTime":620.36,"body":"Yeah, that'll definitely"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":617.92,"endTime":620.36,"body":"be a insightful one for sure."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":620.783,"endTime":623.173,"body":"And then one"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":620.783,"endTime":623.173,"body":"last fun story that I wanted to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":623.173,"endTime":627.673,"body":"share before we head off to our full"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":623.173,"endTime":627.673,"body":"interview today, uh, is that NASA"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":627.673,"endTime":631.793,"body":"is going to be doing a Twitch stream"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":627.673,"endTime":631.793,"body":"from the international space station."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":632.226,"endTime":632.796,"body":"Oh, nice."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":633.413,"endTime":633.733,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":633.733,"endTime":638.873,"body":"So the plan is to discuss daily life"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":633.733,"endTime":638.873,"body":"aboard the space station, some of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":638.873,"endTime":642.623,"body":"the research that they're conducting,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":638.873,"endTime":642.623,"body":"it's happening on February 12th, so go"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":642.623,"endTime":644.123,"body":"check it out if you have the chance."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":644.353,"endTime":646.453,"body":"they've also said they want to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":644.353,"endTime":646.453,"body":"do more of these in the future."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":646.453,"endTime":647.803,"body":"So it's, it's really cool."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":647.803,"endTime":648.803,"body":"I love space."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":649.103,"endTime":652.183,"body":"And by the way, we have"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":649.103,"endTime":652.183,"body":"always wanted to get."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":653.228,"endTime":655.098,"body":"Astronaut on this show."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":655.128,"endTime":658.958,"body":"So if you're an astronaut listening right"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":655.128,"endTime":658.958,"body":"now, or if you know one, or even if you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":658.958,"endTime":664.178,"body":"just work at NASA or do cool space things,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":658.958,"endTime":664.178,"body":"reach out to us, cause we would love to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":664.178,"endTime":668.568,"body":"have, somebody who's been in space or"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":664.178,"endTime":668.568,"body":"helped people get to space on this show."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":669.093,"endTime":671.703,"body":"that would be a cool"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":669.093,"endTime":671.703,"body":"field to definitely cover for sure."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":671.703,"endTime":673.873,"body":"There's so much expertise"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":671.703,"endTime":673.873,"body":"to explore there."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":673.903,"endTime":676.103,"body":"I love the idea of NASA"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":673.903,"endTime":676.103,"body":"doing a Twitch stream."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":676.533,"endTime":678.293,"body":"What a great way to engage with folks."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":678.443,"endTime":682.483,"body":"Um, but also especially with like kids and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":678.443,"endTime":682.483,"body":"get them excited about science and space."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":682.793,"endTime":685.903,"body":"I think that that's a perfect platform"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":682.793,"endTime":685.903,"body":"for them and with a big audience."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":685.903,"endTime":688.278,"body":"So I'm definitely going to tune in."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":689.383,"endTime":692.093,"body":"Alright Andrew, so"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":689.383,"endTime":692.093,"body":"this is the point where we get to make a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":692.093,"endTime":695.973,"body":"prediction about an event that will happen"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":692.093,"endTime":695.973,"body":"in the future to us, but our audience will"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":695.973,"endTime":700.683,"body":"find out after the event and they'll get"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":695.973,"endTime":700.683,"body":"to see whether or not we are accurate."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":701.011,"endTime":704.231,"body":"Oh, I love this part"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":701.011,"endTime":704.231,"body":"where all of our biases go on display and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":704.241,"endTime":705.671,"body":"we figure out if we're right or wrong."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":707.833,"endTime":709.713,"body":"your"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":707.833,"endTime":709.713,"body":"Super Bowl prediction?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":709.763,"endTime":711.863,"body":"Everyone's got a prediction,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":709.763,"endTime":711.863,"body":"what's yours Andrew?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":712.901,"endTime":713.601,"body":"Oh, man."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":713.631,"endTime":718.566,"body":"Well, for American football, my"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":713.631,"endTime":718.566,"body":"prediction is that, well, You know,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":718.596,"endTime":721.766,"body":"I can't even necessarily think about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":718.596,"endTime":721.766,"body":"what's going to be happening in the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":721.766,"endTime":722.996,"body":"game or who's going to be playing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":723.016,"endTime":726.186,"body":"All I know is I still need to be looking"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":723.016,"endTime":726.186,"body":"up the Puppy Bowl information for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":726.186,"endTime":728.136,"body":"myself and the people in my household."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":728.517,"endTime":733.237,"body":"But, the biggest thing that I'm already"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":728.517,"endTime":733.237,"body":"anticipating, and future me, hopefully,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":733.237,"endTime":737.337,"body":"fingers crossed, is on the finish line"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":733.237,"endTime":737.337,"body":"being like, Yes, I was right, is that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":737.337,"endTime":740.087,"body":"there's probably going to be some kind"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":737.337,"endTime":740.087,"body":"of really either tragically good or"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":740.087,"endTime":742.357,"body":"tragically bad AI generated commercial."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":742.377,"endTime":744.897,"body":"Maybe we'll get both, but there's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":742.377,"endTime":744.897,"body":"definitely going to be a lot"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":744.897,"endTime":747.787,"body":"of talk about how AI was used"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":744.897,"endTime":747.787,"body":"in the Super Bowl commercials."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":747.797,"endTime":751.827,"body":"That's my personal prediction, but"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":747.797,"endTime":751.827,"body":"maybe that's my own bias speaking out."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":752.384,"endTime":755.994,"body":"Yeah, so I actually"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":752.384,"endTime":755.994,"body":"made this point in a post on LinkedIn"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":756.024,"endTime":759.414,"body":"that went nowhere And I think it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":756.024,"endTime":759.414,"body":"because people are just sick of seeing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":759.604,"endTime":763.564,"body":"AI generated videos at this point,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":759.604,"endTime":763.564,"body":"but I I agree with you I think this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":763.574,"endTime":768.824,"body":"is we're gonna see you know at least"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":763.574,"endTime":768.824,"body":"one maybe multiples of people like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":768.824,"endTime":773.178,"body":"making AI part of the punchline and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":768.824,"endTime":773.178,"body":"within the, the commercial's joke,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":773.638,"endTime":777.338,"body":"uh, but also like, you know, so I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":773.638,"endTime":777.338,"body":"was talking about my token addiction."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":777.338,"endTime":780.488,"body":"So I spent a quarter of my monthly tokens"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":780.828,"endTime":786.308,"body":"generating videos for this LinkedIn"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":780.828,"endTime":786.308,"body":"post, uh, before I finally just went"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":786.308,"endTime":791.228,"body":"to Sora and, uh, had it, you know, as"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":786.308,"endTime":791.228,"body":"part of my monthly membership there."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":791.943,"endTime":796.033,"body":"But why are footballs so"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":791.943,"endTime":796.033,"body":"hard for AI to understand?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":796.063,"endTime":796.903,"body":"Like, I don't get it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":796.933,"endTime":800.563,"body":"Like, every video, there's like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":796.933,"endTime":800.563,"body":"10 footballs flying everywhere."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":800.563,"endTime":804.513,"body":"People are morphing into footballs"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":800.563,"endTime":804.513,"body":"and footballs are like scoring"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":804.533,"endTime":805.893,"body":"touchdowns by themselves."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":805.973,"endTime":808.273,"body":"but there's only ever one"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":805.973,"endTime":808.273,"body":"football on the field in a game."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":808.273,"endTime":812.633,"body":"So something is training these"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":808.273,"endTime":812.633,"body":"models to put footballs everywhere."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":813.011,"endTime":813.761,"body":"Or there's a lack"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":813.761,"endTime":814.711,"body":"of training, maybe."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":814.761,"endTime":817.841,"body":"What I like about your post is you really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":814.761,"endTime":817.841,"body":"accurately called out that a lot of that,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":817.881,"endTime":819.331,"body":"you know, that video footage is fake."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":820.016,"endTime":822.046,"body":"Those photos are licensed and they're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":822.066,"endTime":825.306,"body":"owned maybe by private parties"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":822.066,"endTime":825.306,"body":"who won't let them be trained."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":825.306,"endTime":829.126,"body":"And so, maybe the AI just really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":825.306,"endTime":829.126,"body":"does lack that kind of understanding."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":829.146,"endTime":832.896,"body":"It kind of reminds me of just how, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":829.146,"endTime":832.896,"body":"know, you're getting all these crazy"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":832.896,"endTime":836.566,"body":"results, and I'm sorry to hear that you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":832.896,"endTime":836.566,"body":"spent a quarter of your monthly budget"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":836.616,"endTime":838.756,"body":"of tokens trying to get this result."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":838.756,"endTime":842.216,"body":"If anyone in our audience is good at"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":838.756,"endTime":842.216,"body":"the economy, please help him budget"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":842.226,"endTime":843.926,"body":"these tokens so he can make it through."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":844.306,"endTime":848.566,"body":"But I will say that the LLMs, they just"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":844.306,"endTime":848.566,"body":"lack a really good spatial understanding."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":848.816,"endTime":853.116,"body":"a fun example that, I did just before"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":848.816,"endTime":853.116,"body":"this, we hopped on here is I asked an LLM,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":853.146,"endTime":855.266,"body":"I asked ChatGPT to finish the sentence."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":855.476,"endTime":858.356,"body":"The football flew 200 feet overhead."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":858.666,"endTime":863.256,"body":"I jumped as high as I could and, and of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":858.666,"endTime":863.256,"body":"course it wants to finish the sentence."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":863.306,"endTime":867.401,"body":"And it says, Stretched my fingers"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":863.306,"endTime":867.401,"body":"Towards it, feeling the leather brush"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":867.401,"endTime":872.171,"body":"against my fingertips, just enough to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":867.401,"endTime":872.171,"body":"tip it back into my grasp as I crash to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":872.171,"endTime":875.131,"body":"the ground, breathless but victorious."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":875.611,"endTime":879.321,"body":"But as we all know, humans can't jump"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":875.611,"endTime":879.321,"body":"200 feet in the air to catch a football."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":880.711,"endTime":884.481,"body":"It only has a semantic understanding"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":880.711,"endTime":884.481,"body":"of our world, but not a spatial one."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":885.418,"endTime":886.308,"body":"Yeah, man."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":886.308,"endTime":888.348,"body":"I wonder what universe it comes from."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":888.348,"endTime":891.548,"body":"Like either it's a universe where"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":888.348,"endTime":891.548,"body":"200 feet is actually not very much"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":891.678,"endTime":894.848,"body":"distance or, people are 200 feet tall,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":895.271,"endTime":898.891,"body":"Or Ben, or, it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":895.271,"endTime":898.891,"body":"assumes that you're maybe in space"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":899.116,"endTime":902.076,"body":"You maybe you're in space and you're on"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":899.116,"endTime":902.076,"body":"your, or you're on the moon and you're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":902.076,"endTime":904.366,"body":"jumping and you could maybe get it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":904.816,"endTime":906.906,"body":"Um, so maybe it's just future thinking."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":907.268,"endTime":907.628,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":908.196,"endTime":910.326,"body":"But with all that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":908.196,"endTime":910.326,"body":"said, this has been a really fun news"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":910.326,"endTime":912.306,"body":"roundup and thanks for sticking around."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":912.606,"endTime":916.296,"body":"coming up, we're on Ben's conversation"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":912.606,"endTime":916.296,"body":"about the future of developer"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":916.296,"endTime":921.246,"body":"productivity with LinearB CEO Ori Keren"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":916.296,"endTime":921.246,"body":"and Dharmesh Thakkar, the generous"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":921.306,"endTime":923.336,"body":"general partner at Battery Ventures."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":923.796,"endTime":927.276,"body":"This format for this is a little"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":923.796,"endTime":927.276,"body":"different than what we normally do, but"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":927.276,"endTime":929.846,"body":"there's really great"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":927.276,"endTime":929.846,"body":"audience engagement as well."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":930.336,"endTime":934.566,"body":"This conversation was recorded in front"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":930.336,"endTime":934.566,"body":"of a whole bunch of folks at The Melody in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":934.566,"endTime":937.056,"body":"San Francisco, which is a beautiful venue."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":937.066,"endTime":939.416,"body":"We have lots of video of it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":937.066,"endTime":939.416,"body":"too, so be sure to check it out."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":939.746,"endTime":943.076,"body":"Features some really great Q\u0026 A, like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":939.746,"endTime":943.076,"body":"I said, and you don't want to miss it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":943.913,"endTime":944.133,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":944.133,"endTime":944.633,"body":"Stick around."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":946.754,"endTime":948.244,"body":"Habits are a powerful thing."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":948.884,"endTime":952.274,"body":"Maybe you've read one of the many"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":948.884,"endTime":952.274,"body":"books about the habits of highly"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":952.274,"endTime":953.794,"body":"successful people out there."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":954.244,"endTime":957.794,"body":"Well, LinearB is out with their"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":954.244,"endTime":957.794,"body":"own book, The 8 Habits of Highly"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":957.794,"endTime":959.244,"body":"Productive Engineering Teams."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":959.799,"endTime":963.419,"body":"This practical guide offers advice"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":959.799,"endTime":963.419,"body":"and templates to help you establish"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":963.429,"endTime":965.189,"body":"durable data driven habits."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":965.499,"endTime":969.502,"body":"It covers things like setting actionable"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":965.499,"endTime":969.502,"body":"team goals, coaching developers"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":969.502,"endTime":973.262,"body":"to level up their skills, using"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":969.502,"endTime":973.262,"body":"monthly metrics check ins to unblock"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":973.302,"endTime":977.162,"body":"friction, and run more efficient"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":973.302,"endTime":977.162,"body":"and effective sprint retrospectives."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":977.632,"endTime":980.342,"body":"This guide has something for"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":977.632,"endTime":980.342,"body":"everyone within your engineering"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":980.342,"endTime":983.502,"body":"team, so check out the link in the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":980.342,"endTime":983.502,"body":"show notes for the eight habits of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":983.502,"endTime":985.222,"body":"highly productive engineering teams."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":989.652,"endTime":994.442,"body":"Today we're talking about the future"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":989.652,"endTime":994.442,"body":"of developer productivity, and I've"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":994.442,"endTime":999.857,"body":"got Ori Keren, you're from LinearB and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":994.442,"endTime":999.857,"body":"Dharmesh Thakker from Battery Ventures."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":999.867,"endTime":1003.437,"body":"So just give us a moment, a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":999.867,"endTime":1003.437,"body":"round of applause for our guests"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1003.437,"endTime":1004.447,"body":"that have joined us today."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1009.677,"endTime":1013.117,"body":"So this session is, it's a little bit"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1009.677,"endTime":1013.117,"body":"about the opinions of the people on"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1013.117,"endTime":1017.587,"body":"this stage, but we also have a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1013.117,"endTime":1017.587,"body":"really brilliant people in this room"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1017.587,"endTime":1019.267,"body":"and it's why we've brought you here."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1019.607,"endTime":1022.217,"body":"So, you know, we're going to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1019.607,"endTime":1022.217,"body":"share our predictions about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1022.217,"endTime":1024.117,"body":"the next 12 to 24 months."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1024.572,"endTime":1028.212,"body":"But we're also just as interested"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1024.572,"endTime":1028.212,"body":"in what you out there in the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1028.212,"endTime":1030.182,"body":"audience think is going to happen."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1030.242,"endTime":1033.432,"body":"So, there will be some"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1030.242,"endTime":1033.432,"body":"opportunity for you to share your"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1033.432,"endTime":1034.862,"body":"perspectives during this session."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1034.862,"endTime":1036.652,"body":"So, um, you know, don't be shy."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1036.852,"endTime":1039.662,"body":"I know you're all eating now, but,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1036.852,"endTime":1039.662,"body":"as you finish up your food, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1039.662,"endTime":1043.142,"body":"can, participate a little more,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1039.662,"endTime":1043.142,"body":"but we really want you to learn."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1044.087,"endTime":1046.037,"body":"From us, but also from"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1044.087,"endTime":1046.037,"body":"the people around you."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1046.598,"endTime":1051.398,"body":"so if we can get to our predictions,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1046.598,"endTime":1051.398,"body":"we have five predictions about the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1051.398,"endTime":1053.278,"body":"future of developer productivity."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1053.328,"endTime":1058.208,"body":"And before we get into that, I've"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1053.328,"endTime":1058.208,"body":"heard actually that Ori that you have a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1058.208,"endTime":1060.458,"body":"bold prediction that you want to make."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1061.998,"endTime":1062.338,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1062.338,"endTime":1067.748,"body":"When we were talking about it in"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1062.338,"endTime":1067.748,"body":"the podcast, we recorded together"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1068.468,"endTime":1071.828,"body":"and my bold prediction says that."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1072.373,"endTime":1076.363,"body":"Even though there's a lot of,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1072.373,"endTime":1076.363,"body":"levers to pull to increase developer"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1076.413,"endTime":1078.053,"body":"productivity in the next year."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1078.993,"endTime":1085.123,"body":"I think because we're still in"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1078.993,"endTime":1085.123,"body":"the norming, storming, phase."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1085.553,"endTime":1089.573,"body":"developer productivity is"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1085.553,"endTime":1089.573,"body":"actually going to decline in 2025."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1090.273,"endTime":1093.633,"body":"I think people are still experimenting"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1090.273,"endTime":1093.633,"body":"with a lot of technologies."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1094.283,"endTime":1097.423,"body":"and they still don't know"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1094.283,"endTime":1097.423,"body":"how to gather them together."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1097.928,"endTime":1103.538,"body":"before, you know, in every change,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1097.928,"endTime":1103.538,"body":"what, what happens is you get a"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1103.538,"endTime":1109.768,"body":"small dip before you kind of like,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1103.538,"endTime":1109.768,"body":"uh, get your processes together."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1110.088,"endTime":1116.128,"body":"I think like 2026, 2027 is where"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1110.088,"endTime":1116.128,"body":"we see the peak, but 2025 is still"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1116.128,"endTime":1120.408,"body":"going to be challenging with a lot"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1116.128,"endTime":1120.408,"body":"of experiments and actually predict"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1120.408,"endTime":1123.198,"body":"developer productivity will decline a bit."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1124.443,"endTime":1126.373,"body":"Yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1124.443,"endTime":1126.373,"body":"that's a, it's a really great"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1126.393,"endTime":1129.133,"body":"observation, you know, cause 2024."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1129.603,"endTime":1133.223,"body":"Almost felt like it was the year really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1129.603,"endTime":1133.223,"body":"to experiment with a lot of the AI"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1133.273,"endTime":1137.193,"body":"technologies that are out there and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1133.273,"endTime":1137.193,"body":"businesses, and engineering leaders,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1137.243,"endTime":1141.013,"body":"they get some room to experiment, but"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1137.243,"endTime":1141.013,"body":"eventually you have to start showing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1141.053,"endTime":1145.293,"body":"the fruits of that experimentation, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1141.053,"endTime":1145.293,"body":"know, so I think people are going to see"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1145.363,"endTime":1149.328,"body":"that, you know, a lot of our predictions"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1145.363,"endTime":1149.328,"body":"today really are centered around All of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1149.328,"endTime":1152.908,"body":"the new generative AI changes that are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1149.328,"endTime":1152.908,"body":"happening and how it's impacting, your"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1152.908,"endTime":1157.238,"body":"senior developers versus non technical"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1152.908,"endTime":1157.238,"body":"people within your organization."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1157.518,"endTime":1162.878,"body":"you know, and also how this is going to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1157.518,"endTime":1162.878,"body":"impact how organizations respond to DevEx"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1162.898,"endTime":1165.578,"body":"concerns over the next couple of years."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1166.058,"endTime":1169.528,"body":"so with that said, I want to really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1166.058,"endTime":1169.528,"body":"just jump into this first prediction we"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1169.528,"endTime":1172.568,"body":"have about AI powered development tools."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1173.208,"endTime":1176.768,"body":"I feel like a day doesn't go"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1173.208,"endTime":1176.768,"body":"by at this point where I'm not"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1176.778,"endTime":1178.168,"body":"talking about these things."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1178.298,"endTime":1182.528,"body":"particularly I feel like agentic"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1178.298,"endTime":1182.528,"body":"AI, uh, is coming through a lot."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1182.975,"endTime":1187.455,"body":"but you know, we should all be familiar"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1182.975,"endTime":1187.455,"body":"already with the code generation and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1187.485,"endTime":1189.345,"body":"auto completion tools that are out there."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1189.345,"endTime":1193.355,"body":"So this is things like GitHub"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1189.345,"endTime":1193.355,"body":"Copilot, OpenAI I believe has"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1193.355,"endTime":1194.825,"body":"a tool that works within this."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1194.845,"endTime":1197.515,"body":"There's quite a few other competitors"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1194.845,"endTime":1197.515,"body":"that have emerged on the market."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1197.816,"endTime":1203.036,"body":"and really what these are doing are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1197.816,"endTime":1203.036,"body":"enabling developers to write code faster."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1203.491,"endTime":1206.381,"body":"Often with fewer errors with,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1203.491,"endTime":1206.381,"body":"some exceptions to that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1206.921,"endTime":1211.381,"body":"And I think one thing that we"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1206.921,"endTime":1211.381,"body":"can expect is more specialized"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1211.431,"endTime":1215.981,"body":"AI models that are tailored for"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1211.431,"endTime":1215.981,"body":"specific programming conditions."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1215.981,"endTime":1219.541,"body":"I wonder if that, if that aligns with"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1215.981,"endTime":1219.541,"body":"what you two are hearing from the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1219.541,"endTime":1223.363,"body":"market, or, is it going to be the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1219.541,"endTime":1223.363,"body":"name of the game with AI, particularly"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1223.363,"endTime":1228.033,"body":"around auto completion is going to be"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1223.363,"endTime":1228.033,"body":"in like customizing it to, to workflows."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1228.906,"endTime":1231.266,"body":"Yes, I think,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1228.906,"endTime":1231.266,"body":"uh, I would evaluate it too."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1231.286,"endTime":1236.579,"body":"I think, the industry now is ready"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1231.286,"endTime":1236.579,"body":"to experiment with, and we've seen"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1236.579,"endTime":1241.629,"body":"it in the last year, every second"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1236.579,"endTime":1241.629,"body":"software company is experimenting"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1241.769,"endTime":1248.513,"body":"with what we call assisted, where"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1241.769,"endTime":1248.513,"body":"it's like a co pilot or something that"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1248.513,"endTime":1251.133,"body":"helps you with the AI based review."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1251.593,"endTime":1255.423,"body":"I can see a lot of, a lot"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1251.593,"endTime":1255.423,"body":"of energy putting into that."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1255.813,"endTime":1259.373,"body":"we're trying to measure the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1255.813,"endTime":1259.373,"body":"productivity coming out of, out of it."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1259.403,"endTime":1263.189,"body":"It's still a controversial, you"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1259.403,"endTime":1263.189,"body":"can see a lot of more throughput."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1263.984,"endTime":1268.804,"body":"But on the other hand, sometimes the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1263.984,"endTime":1268.804,"body":"code churns faster out of those systems."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1269.184,"endTime":1273.684,"body":"So definitely in everything that's"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1269.184,"endTime":1273.684,"body":"assisted where you have a developer"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1273.704,"endTime":1275.484,"body":"that still leads the effort."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1275.944,"endTime":1280.474,"body":"we can see organization"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1275.944,"endTime":1280.474,"body":"experimenting with it and, a lot"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1280.544,"endTime":1281.984,"body":"of cool things are happening."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1282.384,"endTime":1288.824,"body":"Now, if you move to agentic use cases,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1282.384,"endTime":1288.824,"body":"which is where the future is, I think"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1288.824,"endTime":1295.204,"body":"it's almost like a year behind, you don't"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1288.824,"endTime":1295.204,"body":"still see, you see early experiments, but"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1295.204,"endTime":1300.524,"body":"you don't see confidence of organizations"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1295.204,"endTime":1300.524,"body":"to, go and deploy, like, I don't know,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1301.024,"endTime":1307.644,"body":"an agent that takes like a simple task"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1301.024,"endTime":1307.644,"body":"from a JIRA queue and issues a PR or an"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1307.654,"endTime":1313.991,"body":"agent that does like, Fixes a bug or an"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1307.654,"endTime":1313.991,"body":"agent that looks in SRE problems and fix"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1314.001,"endTime":1317.981,"body":"them and security scans or, or whatever."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1318.451,"endTime":1320.731,"body":"and I think it's going to take time."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1320.821,"endTime":1323.491,"body":"It's probably going to take like"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1320.821,"endTime":1323.491,"body":"two or three more years for people"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1324.116,"endTime":1326.171,"body":"to feel more confident with that."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1327.601,"endTime":1332.521,"body":"It's almost like, autonomous cars,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1327.601,"endTime":1332.521,"body":"like the technology was there, but then"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1332.521,"endTime":1335.341,"body":"you had to put a lot of regulation."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1335.641,"endTime":1338.101,"body":"Same thing I think is going"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1335.641,"endTime":1338.101,"body":"to happen in software."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1338.726,"endTime":1343.476,"body":"the technology is going to be there"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1338.726,"endTime":1343.476,"body":"next year, but there's still a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1343.486,"endTime":1348.596,"body":"problems to solve around IP, like who's"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1343.486,"endTime":1348.596,"body":"owning the IP, around legal implications,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1348.596,"endTime":1354.206,"body":"around compliance, SOC 2, all that type"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1348.596,"endTime":1354.206,"body":"of problems, so technology will move"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1354.216,"endTime":1358.736,"body":"faster, but it's still going to take"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1354.216,"endTime":1358.736,"body":"time to streamline all of these things"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1358.736,"endTime":1360.699,"body":"into like, Mainstream development,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1361.607,"endTime":1362.887,"body":"some"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1361.607,"endTime":1362.887,"body":"color first and foremost."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1362.887,"endTime":1364.777,"body":"Thank you so much for having me here."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1365.107,"endTime":1367.627,"body":"there's so much depth that"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1365.107,"endTime":1367.627,"body":"we covered in the last panel."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1367.967,"endTime":1370.947,"body":"I'm like a big pictures guy, but"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1367.967,"endTime":1370.947,"body":"it's great to see how all this"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1370.957,"endTime":1372.337,"body":"great work is coming together."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1372.627,"endTime":1376.747,"body":"your question bends about whether"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1372.627,"endTime":1376.747,"body":"AI tools will be ubiquitous."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1377.547,"endTime":1378.337,"body":"Makes total sense."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1378.337,"endTime":1381.827,"body":"Like you think about like 5"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1378.337,"endTime":1381.827,"body":"million developers in the U S you"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1381.827,"endTime":1385.657,"body":"know, on average getting paid a"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1381.827,"endTime":1385.657,"body":"hundred to 200 K it's like almost."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1386.352,"endTime":1392.492,"body":"$500 billion like that is being spent,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1386.352,"endTime":1392.492,"body":"but there's so much work that is BS work."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1392.492,"endTime":1396.302,"body":"You gotta go, you know, fix syntax"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1392.492,"endTime":1396.302,"body":"issues, you gotta do documentation,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1396.302,"endTime":1397.652,"body":"you've gotta great unit tests."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1398.042,"endTime":1401.942,"body":"All this ancillary work that no"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1398.042,"endTime":1401.942,"body":"developer, you know, got a CS degree"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1401.942,"endTime":1406.462,"body":"to go work on can be automated and"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1401.942,"endTime":1406.462,"body":"just makes economic sense for companies"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1406.462,"endTime":1409.432,"body":"that make sense because they can"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1406.462,"endTime":1409.432,"body":"take their most valuable resources"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1409.812,"endTime":1414.572,"body":"and point them to driving innovation"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1409.812,"endTime":1414.572,"body":"instead of fixing syntax issues or the"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1414.572,"endTime":1416.372,"body":"developer's experience is so much better."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1416.727,"endTime":1418.727,"body":"Because they can focus"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1416.727,"endTime":1418.727,"body":"on more fulfilling work."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1419.267,"endTime":1422.277,"body":"and you know, for the customer, it's"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1419.267,"endTime":1422.277,"body":"better because you can push code,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1423.087,"endTime":1424.877,"body":"hopefully higher quality code faster."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1425.187,"endTime":1428.687,"body":"and so for all those reasons,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1425.187,"endTime":1428.687,"body":"the economics of, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1428.727,"endTime":1430.127,"body":"these tools makes a ton of sense."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1430.707,"endTime":1433.037,"body":"The problem right now is there's"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1430.707,"endTime":1433.037,"body":"just so much fragmentation."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1433.087,"endTime":1434.597,"body":"it's like a games business."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1434.697,"endTime":1436.247,"body":"Every week there's a new tool."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1436.437,"endTime":1440.067,"body":"It's like Copilot, now there's Codium,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1436.437,"endTime":1440.067,"body":"and Cursor, and Magic, and Poolside."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1440.067,"endTime":1441.657,"body":"There's like 20 different tools."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1441.657,"endTime":1446.797,"body":"And so, I feel like in 2025 or"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1441.657,"endTime":1446.797,"body":"perhaps 26, You'll see the market"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1446.807,"endTime":1451.227,"body":"converge to a few, a couple of these"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1446.807,"endTime":1451.227,"body":"tools that become the enterprise"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1451.237,"endTime":1453.137,"body":"standard or the startup standard."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1453.307,"endTime":1455.177,"body":"But right now there's"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1453.307,"endTime":1455.177,"body":"a lot of fragmentation."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1455.447,"endTime":1457.717,"body":"Agentic is like two steps beyond that."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1457.797,"endTime":1462.637,"body":"Once you standardize and a set of"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1457.797,"endTime":1462.637,"body":"tools and best practices on how port"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1462.637,"endTime":1466.407,"body":"assist works, how PR automation works,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1462.637,"endTime":1466.407,"body":"you know, what you guys talked about"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1466.437,"endTime":1470.552,"body":"with LinearB last time, how you push"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1466.437,"endTime":1470.552,"body":"that forward to customers and test."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1470.832,"endTime":1472.432,"body":"Do A/B testing with customers."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1472.792,"endTime":1476.262,"body":"Once we standardize on that"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1472.792,"endTime":1476.262,"body":"process, then we can go implement"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1476.272,"endTime":1477.642,"body":"that in a genetic manner."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1478.022,"endTime":1480.432,"body":"But I think that's like at"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1478.022,"endTime":1480.432,"body":"least two, three years away."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1480.742,"endTime":1482.412,"body":"So that's my, my prediction on that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1482.777,"endTime":1483.037,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1483.037,"endTime":1485.637,"body":"And I think you're actually answering"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1483.037,"endTime":1485.637,"body":"one of the questions that I have."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1485.637,"endTime":1490.387,"body":"And is that, then that is will by the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1485.637,"endTime":1490.387,"body":"year 2026, so after this next year, will"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1490.397,"endTime":1495.387,"body":"developers actually trust the reviews"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1490.397,"endTime":1495.387,"body":"that they get from these AI models?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1495.387,"endTime":1498.597,"body":"Like, is, is that the point where like,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1495.387,"endTime":1498.597,"body":"well, we'd be able to get there that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1498.597,"endTime":1502.527,"body":"quickly, but it seems like both of you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1498.597,"endTime":1502.527,"body":"think we're more in the like two to three"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1502.527,"endTime":1507.747,"body":"year mark before we can really start to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1502.527,"endTime":1507.747,"body":"see like maximize the productivity impact"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1507.747,"endTime":1509.947,"body":"of these, you think that's accurate?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1510.602,"endTime":1514.712,"body":"you're asking if developers"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1510.602,"endTime":1514.712,"body":"will get a review from like a, a, a model"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1514.712,"endTime":1517.312,"body":"and you say, Hey, I trust the review 100%?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1517.552,"endTime":1519.822,"body":"Yeah, I mean, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1517.552,"endTime":1519.822,"body":"think today there's so much skepticism."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1519.982,"endTime":1521.582,"body":"it's like a trust, but verify, right?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1521.632,"endTime":1524.952,"body":"Like we always have to verify everything"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1521.632,"endTime":1524.952,"body":"that comes out of these models."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1524.992,"endTime":1527.352,"body":"I'm still looking for"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1524.992,"endTime":1527.352,"body":"the developers that will look in"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1527.352,"endTime":1530.902,"body":"a peer review and trust it 100%."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1531.275,"endTime":1532.925,"body":"So I think it's kind of."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1533.585,"endTime":1536.955,"body":"It's going to be the same, as you, some"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1533.585,"endTime":1536.955,"body":"of the comments you will accept, some"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1536.955,"endTime":1540.615,"body":"of the comments you will say, hey, maybe"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1536.955,"endTime":1540.615,"body":"you don't understand the broader context,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1540.615,"endTime":1542.985,"body":"but, that's when it becomes reality,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1543.759,"endTime":1546.589,"body":"Developers trust open"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1543.759,"endTime":1546.589,"body":"source, they trust cloud environments the"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1546.589,"endTime":1548.849,"body":"code runs on, they trust peer reviews."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1549.349,"endTime":1553.309,"body":"if a system is going to learn from"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1549.349,"endTime":1553.309,"body":"prior PR mergers and apply a bunch"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1553.309,"endTime":1555.259,"body":"of automation and intelligence to it."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1556.434,"endTime":1558.614,"body":"And it's not something that they"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1556.434,"endTime":1558.614,"body":"want to spend a lot of time on."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1558.624,"endTime":1560.264,"body":"They would rather be"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1558.624,"endTime":1560.264,"body":"writing more source code."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1560.834,"endTime":1564.084,"body":"I think there's every reason"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1560.834,"endTime":1564.084,"body":"why the system can be trusted."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1564.234,"endTime":1567.344,"body":"However, you would still go verify"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1564.234,"endTime":1567.344,"body":"some of the more extreme cases,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1567.354,"endTime":1568.754,"body":"some of the more important builds."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1569.054,"endTime":1573.444,"body":"but we certainly saying, you know, our"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1569.054,"endTime":1573.444,"body":"firm is involved with a hundred and call"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1573.444,"endTime":1577.814,"body":"it 200 companies that range anywhere"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1573.444,"endTime":1577.814,"body":"from 5 million to 3 or 4 billion."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1578.494,"endTime":1583.804,"body":"The whole notion of PR merges getting"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1578.494,"endTime":1583.804,"body":"automated, at least a low end PR"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1583.974,"endTime":1586.094,"body":"merges getting automated is very."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1586.569,"endTime":1587.619,"body":"Pretty standard right now."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1587.959,"endTime":1589.819,"body":"I don't think there is a"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1587.959,"endTime":1589.819,"body":"trust issue, but you've got to"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1589.819,"endTime":1591.259,"body":"verify the more complex issues."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1592.639,"endTime":1594.399,"body":"So I'm"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1592.639,"endTime":1594.399,"body":"curious from the audience."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1594.399,"endTime":1597.459,"body":"we have three technologies here listed"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1594.399,"endTime":1597.459,"body":"that we think are going to be a big"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1597.469,"endTime":1599.958,"body":"part of AI over the next three years."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1601.219,"endTime":1604.889,"body":"autocompletion, text generation,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1601.219,"endTime":1604.889,"body":"agentic AI, code reviews."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1605.079,"endTime":1608.809,"body":"Just by a show of hands, how many"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1605.079,"endTime":1608.809,"body":"of you are actively adopting or"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1608.809,"endTime":1610.959,"body":"experimenting with at least one of these?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1611.875,"endTime":1613.935,"body":"Yeah, that's what I expected."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1613.935,"endTime":1615.555,"body":"It's definitely most of the audience."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1615.555,"endTime":1619.615,"body":"Now I'm curious if there's any of you out"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1615.555,"endTime":1619.615,"body":"there that are doing all three of them."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1620.305,"endTime":1622.215,"body":"I've got one hand in the back."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1622.445,"endTime":1625.545,"body":"Would you be interested in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1622.445,"endTime":1625.545,"body":"sharing anything about your,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1625.745,"endTime":1627.925,"body":"your story of like adopting this?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1628.365,"endTime":1630.475,"body":"Not to put you on the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1628.365,"endTime":1630.475,"body":"spot, you can tell me now,"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1632.101,"endTime":1636.746,"body":"was a lot of Hesitance"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1632.101,"endTime":1636.746,"body":"among some of the members of our team."},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1636.746,"endTime":1642.016,"body":"Our team is small eight people all"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1636.746,"endTime":1642.016,"body":"engineers and Some of the people"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1642.086,"endTime":1644.106,"body":"have been professionals for 20 years."},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1644.106,"endTime":1650.056,"body":"And so they've seen all of these waves"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1644.106,"endTime":1650.056,"body":"of AI They've been very against it where"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1651.086,"endTime":1658.236,"body":"They have relented It's on the more"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1651.086,"endTime":1658.236,"body":"mundane boilerplate code, but all these"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1658.236,"endTime":1662.509,"body":"frameworks require, and so the code"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1658.236,"endTime":1662.509,"body":"generation auto completion, that was"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1662.879,"endTime":1665.889,"body":"really easy for them to see the value."},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1666.326,"endTime":1670.956,"body":"Like we rely heavily on Rust, so when"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1666.326,"endTime":1670.956,"body":"the automation makes mistakes, the"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1670.956,"endTime":1675.186,"body":"compiler will tell us, those are the"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1670.956,"endTime":1675.186,"body":"combinations, like Rust kind of makes"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1675.186,"endTime":1677.136,"body":"it a little more safe to adopt this."},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1677.136,"endTime":1681.346,"body":"And I think other languages will start"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1677.136,"endTime":1681.346,"body":"to adopt some of that intelligence"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1681.346,"endTime":1682.726,"body":"and their compilers over time."},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1683.126,"endTime":1687.716,"body":"on the automated bug fixing and"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1683.126,"endTime":1687.716,"body":"code reviews, we have thousands"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1687.876,"endTime":1689.476,"body":"and thousands of dependencies."},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1689.826,"endTime":1695.226,"body":"And so keeping those dependencies"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1689.826,"endTime":1695.226,"body":"updated would be a whole job function"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1696.496,"endTime":1699.474,"body":"for us, maybe two or three years ago."},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1699.514,"endTime":1704.574,"body":"And we don't even review, like we"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1699.514,"endTime":1704.574,"body":"have a bot that reviews another bot"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1704.724,"endTime":1709.354,"body":"opening those, update PRs or dependency"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1704.724,"endTime":1709.354,"body":"maintenance PRs, which is really nice."},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1709.644,"endTime":1714.78,"body":"And then for the agentic,"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1709.644,"endTime":1714.78,"body":"we try keep a pulse."},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1715.675,"endTime":1718.445,"body":"On what's happening outside of our world."},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1718.445,"endTime":1722.365,"body":"Like we have our customers, we"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1718.445,"endTime":1722.365,"body":"have our Slack, and then we have"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1723.215,"endTime":1725.665,"body":"like our internal communications."},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1725.665,"endTime":1729.985,"body":"But there's, we, we felt probably about"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1725.665,"endTime":1729.985,"body":"eight months ago that the world was"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1729.995,"endTime":1735.225,"body":"moving much faster and we had to be"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1729.995,"endTime":1735.225,"body":"really concerned about local Maxima."},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1735.575,"endTime":1741.005,"body":"So we constantly are pulling in,"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1735.575,"endTime":1741.005,"body":"data that matches like new posts"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1741.005,"endTime":1742.345,"body":"that match certain keywords."},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1742.345,"endTime":1745.265,"body":"They come from a variety of"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1742.345,"endTime":1745.265,"body":"feeds ranging from Google news."},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1745.585,"endTime":1751.235,"body":"To hacker renews, and they are"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1745.585,"endTime":1751.235,"body":"experimenting like an agent"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1751.235,"endTime":1752.615,"body":"that we have nothing to do with."},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1752.915,"endTime":1758.825,"body":"We'll propose new prototypes, new"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1752.915,"endTime":1758.825,"body":"bounties even to bring in other"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1758.825,"endTime":1763.975,"body":"humans, and we're constantly trying"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1758.825,"endTime":1763.975,"body":"to keep our finger on the pulse and"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1764.005,"endTime":1765.415,"body":"so, so are our customers too."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1766.158,"endTime":1766.763,"body":"That's great."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1766.833,"endTime":1769.138,"body":"It's a great story, and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1766.833,"endTime":1769.138,"body":"actually very amazing."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1769.138,"endTime":1771.708,"body":"I mean, it seems like you're ahead"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1769.138,"endTime":1771.708,"body":"of the curve in this audience."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1772.098,"endTime":1774.093,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1774.093,"endTime":1775.933,"body":"And it's great to see so much adoption."},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1777.181,"endTime":1780.951,"body":"Weavey, for instance,"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1777.181,"endTime":1780.951,"body":"they, like, so Darmesh and I are both"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1780.951,"endTime":1782.501,"body":"involved in this company called Weaviate."},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1783.261,"endTime":1784.881,"body":"They do all three of these too, for sure."},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1785.181,"endTime":1786.891,"body":"So that's like a vector database."},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1787.261,"endTime":1789.531,"body":"Bob says, hi, but like,"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1787.261,"endTime":1789.531,"body":"it's a vector database."},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1789.531,"endTime":1790.251,"body":"It's open source."},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1790.721,"endTime":1794.471,"body":"And so their agent lives in, uh, in Slack."},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1794.841,"endTime":1797.901,"body":"And if you ask a question, like,"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1794.841,"endTime":1797.901,"body":"you know, you need some help."},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1798.566,"endTime":1804.032,"body":"With, uh, a feature or a new"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1798.566,"endTime":1804.032,"body":"API or a new syntax, it'll just"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1804.032,"endTime":1806.042,"body":"respond and drop in the docs."},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1807.002,"endTime":1811.052,"body":"That's one example, but there's a ton"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1807.002,"endTime":1811.052,"body":"of other examples of agentic workflows"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1811.142,"endTime":1813.952,"body":"within their business, within our"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1811.142,"endTime":1813.952,"body":"business, within most businesses,"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1813.952,"endTime":1815.832,"body":"I would say, at least that I know"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1815.832,"endTime":1816.172,"body":"about,"},{"speaker":"Audience member 1","startTime":1816.212,"endTime":1816.542,"body":"you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1816.542,"endTime":1817.202,"body":"know."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1817.202,"endTime":1817.672,"body":"Awesome."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1818.462,"endTime":1821.502,"body":"I really appreciate the insight and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1818.462,"endTime":1821.502,"body":"for anyone else out there that is you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1821.502,"endTime":1824.152,"body":"to share their thoughts, there will"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1821.502,"endTime":1824.152,"body":"be more opportunities, so don't worry."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1824.642,"endTime":1828.432,"body":"so before we move on to the next insight,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1824.642,"endTime":1828.432,"body":"I want to ask both of you, what do you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1828.442,"endTime":1834.322,"body":"think is going to be the biggest impact"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1828.442,"endTime":1834.322,"body":"to developers over the next year or so, in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1834.322,"endTime":1836.752,"body":"terms of the impact of these new AI tools?"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1837.382,"endTime":1840.252,"body":"I think the near"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1837.382,"endTime":1840.252,"body":"term impact in 12 months, it's,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1840.732,"endTime":1843.452,"body":"I think engineers are doubling"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1840.732,"endTime":1843.452,"body":"down as data scientists, right?"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1843.452,"endTime":1848.262,"body":"There used to be where you create a model"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1843.452,"endTime":1848.262,"body":"and then you provide that to engineers"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1848.262,"endTime":1849.722,"body":"to go write an application on top."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1850.152,"endTime":1853.092,"body":"I think the role of the AI engineer"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1850.152,"endTime":1853.092,"body":"is like doubling down saying, Hey,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1853.342,"endTime":1856.482,"body":"you have this extremely powerful"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1853.342,"endTime":1856.482,"body":"foundational models accessible"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1856.482,"endTime":1859.042,"body":"through an AI or through an API."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1859.472,"endTime":1863.352,"body":"You can now iterate through your"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1859.472,"endTime":1863.352,"body":"application logic, make sure the"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1863.362,"endTime":1866.782,"body":"models aren't hallucinating and you're"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1863.362,"endTime":1866.782,"body":"doubling down as a data scientist"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1866.802,"endTime":1871.392,"body":"and a software engineer and you're"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1866.802,"endTime":1871.392,"body":"implementing much higher order logic."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1871.737,"endTime":1872.877,"body":"that customers benefit from."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1872.877,"endTime":1879.197,"body":"So I think your AI engineer role is"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1872.877,"endTime":1879.197,"body":"getting super elevated, has much higher,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1879.367,"endTime":1880.947,"body":"efficacy more so than throughput."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1880.947,"endTime":1884.027,"body":"It's not about the lines of code,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1880.947,"endTime":1884.027,"body":"it's how we can impact the business"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1884.027,"endTime":1888.617,"body":"by combining application logic with"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1884.027,"endTime":1888.617,"body":"foundational models wrapped into a"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1888.617,"endTime":1890.867,"body":"killer application at record speed."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1890.867,"endTime":1893.337,"body":"So I think the role is becoming"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1890.867,"endTime":1893.337,"body":"really important and they're"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":1893.337,"endTime":1894.707,"body":"doubling down as data scientists."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1895.359,"endTime":1900.319,"body":"If I can add, I think,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1895.359,"endTime":1900.319,"body":"um, it's almost like every developer"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1900.319,"endTime":1904.299,"body":"role, you will need to complement"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1900.319,"endTime":1904.299,"body":"with some AI capabilities."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1904.839,"endTime":1909.759,"body":"We're hiring right now and we"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1904.839,"endTime":1909.759,"body":"need a full stack, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1909.759,"endTime":1911.959,"body":"engineer with AI capabilities."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1912.389,"endTime":1915.099,"body":"We need a back end engineer"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1912.389,"endTime":1915.099,"body":"with AI capabilities."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1915.129,"endTime":1918.719,"body":"By the way, they don't need to"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1915.129,"endTime":1918.719,"body":"write the models or, be the best"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1918.729,"endTime":1921.889,"body":"data scientists, but they need"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1918.729,"endTime":1921.889,"body":"to know how to leverage them."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1922.419,"endTime":1923.769,"body":"where do the models stay?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1923.989,"endTime":1925.929,"body":"what's the do's and the don'ts?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1926.379,"endTime":1928.109,"body":"what can they consume, et cetera."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1928.109,"endTime":1931.346,"body":"So I think, it's going to transform"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":1928.109,"endTime":1931.346,"body":"a lot of like their roles."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1931.922,"endTime":1933.092,"body":"yeah, we'll"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1931.922,"endTime":1933.092,"body":"definitely get into that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1933.092,"endTime":1936.292,"body":"And it's a great segue actually"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1933.092,"endTime":1936.292,"body":"into our next, key prediction."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1936.302,"endTime":1939.732,"body":"So, and that is the senior"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1936.302,"endTime":1939.732,"body":"developer is going to become more"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1939.782,"endTime":1942.062,"body":"valuable in your organization."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1942.072,"endTime":1947.432,"body":"So I think there's this common belief that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1942.072,"endTime":1947.432,"body":"generative AI is having a bigger impact"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1947.512,"endTime":1952.282,"body":"on the lower skill developers, like your"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1947.512,"endTime":1952.282,"body":"junior developers or fresh graduates."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1952.632,"endTime":1956.432,"body":"but more and more research is coming out"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1952.632,"endTime":1956.432,"body":"that seems to indicate that it's actually"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1956.432,"endTime":1960.77,"body":"your senior developers, in fact, that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1956.432,"endTime":1960.77,"body":"not only going to reap the most benefits,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1960.77,"endTime":1963.58,"body":"but are going to be the ones that you're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1960.77,"endTime":1963.58,"body":"going to depend on the most heavily."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1963.97,"endTime":1969.04,"body":"So I think the key things that are driving"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1963.97,"endTime":1969.04,"body":"this, again, AI is going to show up in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1969.04,"endTime":1974.3,"body":"a lot of these, but, you know, natural"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1969.04,"endTime":1974.3,"body":"language interfaces are dramatically"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1974.3,"endTime":1979.03,"body":"shifting, uh, you know, how, people"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1974.3,"endTime":1979.03,"body":"learn new technologies and skills."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1979.3,"endTime":1982.0,"body":"in fact, this technology"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1979.3,"endTime":1982.0,"body":"really is here today."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1982.03,"endTime":1984.71,"body":"I think if you're looking"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1982.03,"endTime":1984.71,"body":"for one use case to."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1985.055,"endTime":1989.175,"body":"Adopt when it comes to AI, it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1985.055,"endTime":1989.175,"body":"creating, it's giving your developers"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1989.185,"endTime":1994.315,"body":"something like chat, GPT or co pilot"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1989.185,"endTime":1994.315,"body":"or a tool where they can have a natural"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1994.315,"endTime":1997.735,"body":"language interface into their code base."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1998.575,"endTime":2002.675,"body":"and what's really the key benefit"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1998.575,"endTime":2002.675,"body":"being knowledge and skills acquisition."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2002.675,"endTime":2003.245,"body":"So they can."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2003.525,"endTime":2009.175,"body":"More rapidly achieve proficiency in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2003.525,"endTime":2009.175,"body":"new tools or technologies or processes."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2009.526,"endTime":2014.586,"body":"Gen AI is also likely to introduce a lot"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2009.526,"endTime":2014.586,"body":"of new bottlenecks to your organization."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2014.896,"endTime":2019.366,"body":"So, you know, if all you're doing with"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2014.896,"endTime":2019.366,"body":"AI is producing more code, doesn't"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2019.376,"endTime":2022.786,"body":"actually mean you're going to be"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2019.376,"endTime":2022.786,"body":"shipping more code into your production."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2022.796,"endTime":2023.176,"body":"So."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2023.511,"endTime":2025.941,"body":"there's still going to be a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2023.511,"endTime":2025.941,"body":"code reviews that are required."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2025.941,"endTime":2029.451,"body":"You're going to have to run everything"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2025.941,"endTime":2029.451,"body":"through your CI and CD pipelines."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2029.901,"endTime":2032.381,"body":"and it's senior developers"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2029.901,"endTime":2032.381,"body":"who feel the biggest negative"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2032.401,"endTime":2034.711,"body":"impact from, these problems."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2035.091,"endTime":2038.011,"body":"and in fact, I really believe, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2035.091,"endTime":2038.011,"body":"know, for this, that structured"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2038.011,"endTime":2039.881,"body":"rollouts are the name of the game."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2040.161,"endTime":2044.751,"body":"Uh, there was a recent research article"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2040.161,"endTime":2044.751,"body":"from Google that found that, using a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2044.751,"endTime":2047.451,"body":"structured rollout, there was a 21%."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2047.806,"endTime":2051.536,"body":"Velocity improvement for what"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2047.806,"endTime":2051.536,"body":"they call enterprise grade tasks."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2051.536,"endTime":2056.036,"body":"So they gave, you know, a range of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2051.536,"endTime":2056.036,"body":"developers from, you know, the most junior"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2056.036,"endTime":2061.886,"body":"all the way up to the most senior, a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2056.036,"endTime":2061.886,"body":"structured way to use generative AI and on"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2061.886,"endTime":2065.426,"body":"average, the senior developer on average,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2061.886,"endTime":2065.426,"body":"they saw a 21 percent improvement, but"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2065.466,"endTime":2068.636,"body":"the improvement was actually bigger"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2065.466,"endTime":2068.636,"body":"than that for the senior developers."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2069.146,"endTime":2072.096,"body":"and then lastly, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2069.146,"endTime":2072.096,"body":"security always comes up."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2072.256,"endTime":2073.986,"body":"it's a very, recurring topic."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2074.256,"endTime":2077.896,"body":"but it's going to continue to shift"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2074.256,"endTime":2077.896,"body":"to the left and be more integrated"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2077.896,"endTime":2079.676,"body":"into your developer's environment."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2079.676,"endTime":2083.156,"body":"So, you know, you're going to be"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2079.676,"endTime":2083.156,"body":"detecting vulnerabilities much earlier."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2083.676,"endTime":2088.236,"body":"developers will be empowered to catch"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2083.676,"endTime":2088.236,"body":"issues much earlier before they even hit"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2088.236,"endTime":2090.586,"body":"like your CI CD pipeline, for example."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2091.386,"endTime":2094.886,"body":"And your senior dev develop"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2091.386,"endTime":2094.886,"body":"developers really need, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2094.886,"endTime":2098.246,"body":"the support and enablement so that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2094.886,"endTime":2098.246,"body":"the burden of maintaining a security"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2098.246,"endTime":2100.196,"body":"posture doesn't fall onto them."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2100.196,"endTime":2103.496,"body":"So wanna get your, your guys'"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2100.196,"endTime":2103.496,"body":"insight, like how do you think"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2103.496,"endTime":2106.826,"body":"that senior developers are gonna"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2103.496,"endTime":2106.826,"body":"be impacted over the next year?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2107.276,"endTime":2107.756,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2107.996,"endTime":2108.416,"body":"that's a really"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2108.856,"endTime":2110.266,"body":"interesting topic."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2110.266,"endTime":2114.106,"body":"I think like, there's two things that"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2110.266,"endTime":2114.106,"body":"are gonna happen with senior developers."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2114.756,"endTime":2120.592,"body":"First of all, Whoever is a senior"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2114.756,"endTime":2120.592,"body":"developer today, they kind of grew"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2120.902,"endTime":2123.692,"body":"without, AI, you know, supporting them."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2124.872,"endTime":2131.342,"body":"And I think what it will cause, or"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2124.872,"endTime":2131.342,"body":"what causes like you have now in,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2131.342,"endTime":2137.742,"body":"um, key positions in some companies,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2131.342,"endTime":2137.742,"body":"people who actually learn the code"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2137.752,"endTime":2142.817,"body":"base on their own, you know, AI is"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2137.752,"endTime":2142.817,"body":"assisting you to like, Accelerate fast."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2143.737,"endTime":2146.687,"body":"and these people are going to be assets."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2147.257,"endTime":2149.977,"body":"It's going to be really,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2147.257,"endTime":2149.977,"body":"really hard to lose them."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2150.437,"endTime":2154.627,"body":"there's something also, with senior"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2150.437,"endTime":2154.627,"body":"developers that are, again, didn't"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2154.637,"endTime":2157.017,"body":"grew up on, on AI supporting them."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2157.517,"endTime":2160.027,"body":"that they spark their life."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2160.107,"endTime":2164.947,"body":"I think, and it's debatable, uh,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2160.107,"endTime":2164.947,"body":"willing to hear like other opinions,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2165.407,"endTime":2168.807,"body":"this creativity thing going on because."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2169.232,"endTime":2173.156,"body":"They don't just say, you know, they"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2169.232,"endTime":2173.156,"body":"get a task, hey, you should do this."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2173.946,"endTime":2178.806,"body":"They're the people that can say, hey, you"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2173.946,"endTime":2178.806,"body":"know, let's refactor this entire area."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2179.136,"endTime":2182.326,"body":"Maybe let's change the product"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2179.136,"endTime":2182.326,"body":"and do this type of things."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2182.796,"endTime":2188.396,"body":"And I think the senior developers of"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2182.796,"endTime":2188.396,"body":"10 years from now won't have the same"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2188.396,"endTime":2193.046,"body":"life knowledge because, They're going"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2188.396,"endTime":2193.046,"body":"to use a lot of AI like to gain the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2193.846,"endTime":2196.606,"body":"knowledge and rely on it a lot more."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2196.976,"endTime":2202.696,"body":"So I predict the senior developers"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2196.976,"endTime":2202.696,"body":"of now are going to be a major asset."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2203.446,"endTime":2208.051,"body":"I would say the second thing, the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2203.446,"endTime":2208.051,"body":"senior developers that are Going"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2208.051,"endTime":2213.191,"body":"to be here in 10 years from now are"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2208.051,"endTime":2213.191,"body":"going to be a, five people team."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2213.691,"endTime":2218.791,"body":"They want to activate agents that take"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2213.691,"endTime":2218.791,"body":"like, you know, pick up, you know, simple"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2218.791,"endTime":2221.751,"body":"tasks from a JIRA queue and work for them."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2222.106,"endTime":2225.426,"body":"They're going to have agents"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2222.106,"endTime":2225.426,"body":"that do AI based review."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2225.456,"endTime":2230.046,"body":"They're going to have agents that fix"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2225.456,"endTime":2230.046,"body":"SRE problems that they see in security."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2230.636,"endTime":2234.286,"body":"So it's almost like, a strong"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2230.636,"endTime":2234.286,"body":"senior developer would be like"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2234.286,"endTime":2236.756,"body":"a 10 X or a a 50 X multiplier."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2237.141,"endTime":2240.501,"body":"So it's really, really going to be"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2237.141,"endTime":2240.501,"body":"interesting, how senior developers"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2240.531,"endTime":2242.051,"body":"evolve over the next years."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2242.891,"endTime":2245.701,"body":"are there any"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2242.891,"endTime":2245.701,"body":"skills that you think senior developers"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2245.781,"endTime":2247.751,"body":"should be focusing on right now?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2248.201,"endTime":2255.007,"body":"Definitely, go and see an"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2248.201,"endTime":2255.007,"body":"experiment with AI, lead the way, don't"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2255.007,"endTime":2257.937,"body":"just settle for, the assisted stuff."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2258.86,"endTime":2261.03,"body":"I'm asking my senior developers right now."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2261.04,"endTime":2265.16,"body":"My engineering manager is asking"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2261.04,"endTime":2265.16,"body":"senior developers right now to go in,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2265.21,"endTime":2267.42,"body":"experiment with agentic use cases."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2267.922,"endTime":2269.352,"body":"so those type of things."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2269.352,"endTime":2273.242,"body":"But I think, again, like I said"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2269.352,"endTime":2273.242,"body":"before, it's also very, very important."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2273.732,"endTime":2281.342,"body":"Not to lose this spark of creativity and"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2273.732,"endTime":2281.342,"body":"offer ideas and all these type of things"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2281.342,"endTime":2283.632,"body":"that makes a single developer great."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2284.467,"endTime":2286.227,"body":"Yeah, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2284.467,"endTime":2286.227,"body":"something that I'm actually hearing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2286.237,"endTime":2291.687,"body":"a lot is the notion of like a product"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2286.237,"endTime":2291.687,"body":"oriented engineer, like engineers"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2291.687,"endTime":2296.267,"body":"who can actually take an idea or a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2291.687,"endTime":2296.267,"body":"technical challenge all the way down"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2296.267,"endTime":2298.127,"body":"to the end user of that challenge."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2298.127,"endTime":2301.807,"body":"So even if you're a backend engineer,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2298.127,"endTime":2301.807,"body":"that's optimizing a database"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2301.807,"endTime":2303.402,"body":"query or something like that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2303.652,"endTime":2306.452,"body":"You should still be thinking"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2303.652,"endTime":2306.452,"body":"about the real world usage of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2306.452,"endTime":2309.962,"body":"that query to make sure that it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2306.452,"endTime":2309.962,"body":"optimized for that situation."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2310.052,"endTime":2312.462,"body":"Just on that point,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2310.052,"endTime":2312.462,"body":"you asked the question, what should"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2312.462,"endTime":2313.822,"body":"senior developers be thinking about?"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2314.202,"endTime":2316.582,"body":"I think of senior developers as"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2314.202,"endTime":2316.582,"body":"what you, you know, the industry"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2316.582,"endTime":2317.952,"body":"calls 10x developers, right?"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2318.252,"endTime":2321.182,"body":"It's not necessarily that they"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2318.252,"endTime":2321.182,"body":"produce 10x the amount of code."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2321.622,"endTime":2325.792,"body":"It is that they have 10x the amount"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2321.622,"endTime":2325.792,"body":"of impact by architectural choices,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2325.792,"endTime":2327.602,"body":"by best practices, what have you."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2328.122,"endTime":2332.922,"body":"And all this talk we hear about AI is"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2328.122,"endTime":2332.922,"body":"so focused on developer productivity as"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2332.922,"endTime":2336.202,"body":"measured by throughput saying, hey, AI"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2332.922,"endTime":2336.202,"body":"is going to generate more lines of code."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2336.782,"endTime":2337.852,"body":"Cares, doesn't matter."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2338.072,"endTime":2341.222,"body":"The question is, what code"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2338.072,"endTime":2341.222,"body":"is going to drive the most"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2341.242,"endTime":2342.672,"body":"impact on your end customers?"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2342.672,"endTime":2346.672,"body":"And so I think senior developers"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2342.672,"endTime":2346.672,"body":"can lead the charge and focusing"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2346.672,"endTime":2350.392,"body":"on kind of developer efficacy"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2346.672,"endTime":2350.392,"body":"as opposed to throughput."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2350.872,"endTime":2352.412,"body":"And by that, what I mean is."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2352.867,"endTime":2357.497,"body":"When you contribute, you know, a set of"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2352.867,"endTime":2357.497,"body":"code, how do you then A B test that, how"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2357.497,"endTime":2361.407,"body":"does that impact the end customer, does"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2357.497,"endTime":2361.407,"body":"that drive the intended business impact,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2361.627,"endTime":2365.723,"body":"and then how do you bring it back, close"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2361.627,"endTime":2365.723,"body":"the loop, and figure out, how do you"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2365.723,"endTime":2369.563,"body":"prioritize the, source code that can"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2365.723,"endTime":2369.563,"body":"ultimately impact the end user, right,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2369.563,"endTime":2374.013,"body":"so, I think that's where a 10x developer"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2369.563,"endTime":2374.013,"body":"can have a 100x impact by closing the"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2374.013,"endTime":2378.253,"body":"loop end to end, pushing code faster,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2374.013,"endTime":2378.253,"body":"but higher quality code, measure with"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2378.263,"endTime":2383.783,"body":"the end customer impact, And use that to"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2378.263,"endTime":2383.783,"body":"import, learn better best practices, and"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2383.783,"endTime":2387.743,"body":"then that can become, a training ground"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2383.783,"endTime":2387.743,"body":"or coaching ground for some of the junior"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2387.743,"endTime":2389.643,"body":"developers to focus on higher impact work."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2389.953,"endTime":2392.432,"body":"So I think this whole concept"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2389.953,"endTime":2392.432,"body":"of developer efficacy, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2392.492,"endTime":2396.292,"body":"productivity is measured by customer"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2392.492,"endTime":2396.292,"body":"impact, not lines of code, in terms"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2396.292,"endTime":2399.922,"body":"of throughput, is an evolution"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2396.292,"endTime":2399.922,"body":"this industry needs to go towards."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2400.496,"endTime":2402.016,"body":"Yeah, so I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2400.496,"endTime":2402.016,"body":"want to throw it back to the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2402.016,"endTime":2403.176,"body":"audience for just a moment."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2403.446,"endTime":2407.636,"body":"I'm curious, through a show of hands"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2403.446,"endTime":2407.636,"body":"again, are you implementing a practice"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2407.636,"endTime":2412.716,"body":"today to help your senior engineers"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2407.636,"endTime":2412.716,"body":"specifically adopt generative AI"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2413.136,"endTime":2415.016,"body":"versus just a general practice?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2416.046,"endTime":2417.636,"body":"Again, one hand."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2417.756,"endTime":2419.676,"body":"I don't know who that is, but"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2417.756,"endTime":2419.676,"body":"do you want to, do you want"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2419.676,"endTime":2421.036,"body":"to share what you're doing?"},{"speaker":"Audience member 2","startTime":2421.745,"endTime":2427.055,"body":"hi, um, more kind of"},{"speaker":"Audience member 2","startTime":2421.745,"endTime":2427.055,"body":"encouraging my senior to explore, but"},{"speaker":"Audience member 2","startTime":2427.475,"endTime":2429.935,"body":"basically just so we could save time."},{"speaker":"Audience member 2","startTime":2430.315,"endTime":2433.545,"body":"So, go explore and do more of that."},{"speaker":"Audience member 2","startTime":2434.26,"endTime":2439.38,"body":"Just so we can cut off time and often"},{"speaker":"Audience member 2","startTime":2434.26,"endTime":2439.38,"body":"what I see and kind of maybe it is"},{"speaker":"Audience member 2","startTime":2439.38,"endTime":2444.8,"body":"a follow up question here because"},{"speaker":"Audience member 2","startTime":2439.38,"endTime":2444.8,"body":"you need to, you know, developers,"},{"speaker":"Audience member 2","startTime":2444.85,"endTime":2447.37,"body":"they're coding in code language."},{"speaker":"Audience member 2","startTime":2447.38,"endTime":2449.12,"body":"So that's how they express themselves."},{"speaker":"Audience member 2","startTime":2449.12,"endTime":2452.54,"body":"And now all of a sudden they need"},{"speaker":"Audience member 2","startTime":2449.12,"endTime":2452.54,"body":"to express themselves actually in"},{"speaker":"Audience member 2","startTime":2452.56,"endTime":2459.74,"body":"English, which kind of makes the"},{"speaker":"Audience member 2","startTime":2452.56,"endTime":2459.74,"body":"product management in a way redundant,"},{"speaker":"Audience member 2","startTime":2460.23,"endTime":2464.01,"body":"I would say, so kind of pushing."},{"speaker":"Audience member 2","startTime":2464.38,"endTime":2468.98,"body":"My engineers to think more of a"},{"speaker":"Audience member 2","startTime":2464.38,"endTime":2468.98,"body":"product managers and, you know, set"},{"speaker":"Audience member 2","startTime":2468.99,"endTime":2476.75,"body":"the prompt to solve about the problem"},{"speaker":"Audience member 2","startTime":2468.99,"endTime":2476.75,"body":"in the context of a user or like the"},{"speaker":"Audience member 2","startTime":2476.75,"endTime":2480.61,"body":"value that you're trying to produce"},{"speaker":"Audience member 2","startTime":2476.75,"endTime":2480.61,"body":"and kind of as an outcome like,"},{"speaker":"Audience member 2","startTime":2480.62,"endTime":2483.41,"body":"okay, now let's help me to code it."},{"speaker":"Audience member 2","startTime":2483.59,"endTime":2488.58,"body":"So that that's really where kind"},{"speaker":"Audience member 2","startTime":2483.59,"endTime":2488.58,"body":"of pushing my seniors to work."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2490.065,"endTime":2493.125,"body":"Yeah, and I think,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2490.065,"endTime":2493.125,"body":"you know, something that resonates"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2493.555,"endTime":2497.918,"body":"with me on that is that, these AI"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2493.555,"endTime":2497.918,"body":"tools can actually be pretty good"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2497.928,"endTime":2501.228,"body":"devices to role play your user, right?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2501.268,"endTime":2501.518,"body":"Like."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2501.793,"endTime":2506.453,"body":"I think developers aren't always"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2501.793,"endTime":2506.453,"body":"as accustomed to meeting customers"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2506.453,"endTime":2508.053,"body":"and talking directly to users."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2508.213,"endTime":2512.59,"body":"It can be difficult for them sometimes,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2508.213,"endTime":2512.59,"body":"but ChatGPT or tools like that can"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2512.59,"endTime":2516.7,"body":"actually be really great at just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2512.59,"endTime":2516.7,"body":"telling you to, be this user and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2516.7,"endTime":2520.95,"body":"answer my questions or how would a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2516.7,"endTime":2520.95,"body":"user interact with a system like this?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2520.96,"endTime":2524.76,"body":"So, I think there definitely is a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2520.96,"endTime":2524.76,"body":"potential there to help, your developers"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2524.76,"endTime":2528.77,"body":"think more like a product manager and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2524.76,"endTime":2528.77,"body":"to, to think more about product design."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2529.475,"endTime":2533.205,"body":"And I want to keep us moving"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2529.475,"endTime":2533.205,"body":"forward into our next prediction."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2533.77,"endTime":2538.26,"body":"and it's a topic that I think you really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2533.77,"endTime":2538.26,"body":"can't discuss without talking about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2538.27,"endTime":2542.24,"body":"developer experience, because they"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2538.27,"endTime":2542.24,"body":"really do seem to come hand in hand."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2542.28,"endTime":2544.78,"body":"And, you know, I hear a lot"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2542.28,"endTime":2544.78,"body":"from engineering leaders that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2545.64,"endTime":2549.88,"body":"They have a hard time understanding"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2545.64,"endTime":2549.88,"body":"how to invest in developer experience."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2550.22,"endTime":2554.69,"body":"and you know, I, I think it's not going"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2550.22,"endTime":2554.69,"body":"to go away, but if you can do it in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2554.69,"endTime":2558.94,"body":"a strategic way, there's some pretty"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2554.69,"endTime":2558.94,"body":"big benefits that you can achieve."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2558.94,"endTime":2561.73,"body":"So some of the technologies that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2558.94,"endTime":2561.73,"body":"we're looking at in this space"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2561.73,"endTime":2565.64,"body":"is particularly around like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2561.73,"endTime":2565.64,"body":"unifying development environments."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2565.64,"endTime":2569.43,"body":"So, you know, things will become"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2565.64,"endTime":2569.43,"body":"more integrated over time."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2569.44,"endTime":2573.74,"body":"We'll see more seamless, coding to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2569.44,"endTime":2573.74,"body":"the testing deployment tool chains."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2574.142,"endTime":2577.322,"body":"You know, imagine a world where,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2574.142,"endTime":2577.322,"body":"code reviews start to become more"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2577.352,"endTime":2581.872,"body":"automated inside of the IDE as"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2577.352,"endTime":2581.872,"body":"the developer writes their code."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2581.882,"endTime":2585.562,"body":"you can have AI agents or other"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2581.882,"endTime":2585.562,"body":"services running within the IDE."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2586.317,"endTime":2588.797,"body":"And telling them that, there's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2586.317,"endTime":2588.797,"body":"a problem before they even"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2588.807,"endTime":2590.607,"body":"send it to their, their team."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2591.157,"endTime":2595.527,"body":"I also think that documentation and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2591.157,"endTime":2595.527,"body":"knowledge sharing are, Potentially,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2595.587,"endTime":2596.997,"body":"dramatically going to shift."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2597.037,"endTime":2600.687,"body":"the point we have on the slide, I believe,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2597.037,"endTime":2600.687,"body":"says it's the end of documentation."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2600.687,"endTime":2603.977,"body":"But really, I think what we're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2600.687,"endTime":2603.977,"body":"seeing is developers are relying"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2603.977,"endTime":2609.087,"body":"more on automated documentation"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2603.977,"endTime":2609.087,"body":"and AI assistance to generate,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2609.257,"endTime":2610.947,"body":"and maintain their documentation."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2611.247,"endTime":2614.217,"body":"and I really think that there's going"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2611.247,"endTime":2614.217,"body":"to be some significant improvements to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2614.217,"endTime":2619.227,"body":"knowledge sharing, that comes out of this,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2614.217,"endTime":2619.227,"body":"you know, as like knowledge bases start"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2619.227,"endTime":2623.857,"body":"to get replaced by like hyper focused"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2619.227,"endTime":2623.857,"body":"LLMs, I think about moving from like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2623.857,"endTime":2628.807,"body":"an internal forum to like a knowledge"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2623.857,"endTime":2628.807,"body":"base that is updated automatically"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2628.807,"endTime":2630.697,"body":"through a natural language interface."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2631.307,"endTime":2633.847,"body":"and then there's also, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2631.307,"endTime":2633.847,"body":"know, just the constant force"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2633.847,"endTime":2635.427,"body":"of asynchronous development."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2635.427,"endTime":2635.887,"body":"And so."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2636.222,"endTime":2641.352,"body":"You know, the pandemic normalized remote"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2636.222,"endTime":2641.352,"body":"work culture, these recent return to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2641.352,"endTime":2643.192,"body":"office mandates that have come out."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2643.462,"endTime":2648.452,"body":"but, virtually every modern enterprise"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2643.462,"endTime":2648.452,"body":"is distributed to some degree today."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2648.522,"endTime":2651.972,"body":"And so, you know, if your tools"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2648.522,"endTime":2651.972,"body":"don't support asynchronous"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2651.982,"endTime":2653.752,"body":"development today, they really are."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2654.082,"endTime":2656.512,"body":"Even if you are an office"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2654.082,"endTime":2656.512,"body":"based culture, you really are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2656.532,"endTime":2658.062,"body":"sort of handicapping yourself."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2658.062,"endTime":2660.415,"body":"So, we'll just see what you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2658.062,"endTime":2660.415,"body":"guys had to say about that."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2661.185,"endTime":2664.878,"body":"Really good topic because,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2661.185,"endTime":2664.878,"body":"the way you ask the questions"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2664.878,"endTime":2669.848,"body":"is like the problems that cause"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2664.878,"endTime":2669.848,"body":"developer experience not to be great."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2670.668,"endTime":2677.208,"body":"Now, when I take a step back and,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2670.668,"endTime":2677.208,"body":"there's a debate out there, how should"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2677.208,"endTime":2679.128,"body":"we measure developer experience?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2679.598,"endTime":2684.688,"body":"And, you know, there's been,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2679.598,"endTime":2684.688,"body":"companies who are saying quantitative."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2685.603,"endTime":2687.543,"body":"metrics is the best way to do it."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2687.653,"endTime":2692.333,"body":"You got to measure build times, you got"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2687.653,"endTime":2692.333,"body":"to measure flaky tests or how much time"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2692.333,"endTime":2694.173,"body":"I wait for an environment, et cetera."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2694.553,"endTime":2699.653,"body":"And then, others say, hey, let's do an"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2694.553,"endTime":2699.653,"body":"academic survey or something like that."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2700.253,"endTime":2701.933,"body":"I say nobody wins."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2703.323,"endTime":2708.843,"body":"The most important thing to do is to"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2703.323,"endTime":2708.843,"body":"have a framework to fix the problems."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2709.613,"endTime":2713.913,"body":"Whatever metrics you collect, whether"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2709.613,"endTime":2713.913,"body":"you do it Quant or Qual, or both"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2713.913,"endTime":2715.553,"body":"of them, it's just the beginning."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2716.093,"endTime":2720.133,"body":"And the topics you spoke about,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2716.093,"endTime":2720.133,"body":"like, how do I improve the day"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2720.723,"endTime":2724.823,"body":"to day of the developers to have"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2720.723,"endTime":2724.823,"body":"a better developer experience?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2724.823,"endTime":2730.848,"body":"By the way, not because, yeah, some of it"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2724.823,"endTime":2730.848,"body":"is, I want my developers to have a work"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2730.848,"endTime":2734.95,"body":"life balance, etc. But at the end of the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2730.848,"endTime":2734.95,"body":"day, I want them to be more productive."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2735.955,"endTime":2741.335,"body":"So what we're missing in this"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2735.955,"endTime":2741.335,"body":"space, I think, and it's hard"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2741.335,"endTime":2745.145,"body":"for me not to say that in LinearB"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2741.335,"endTime":2745.145,"body":"we're attacking this problem."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2745.725,"endTime":2751.135,"body":"is some sort of framework and"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2745.725,"endTime":2751.135,"body":"infrastructure that will help"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2751.135,"endTime":2752.655,"body":"you, solve these problems."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2753.105,"endTime":2755.865,"body":"That will help you see,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2753.105,"endTime":2755.865,"body":"Hey, you know what?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2756.315,"endTime":2761.415,"body":"reviewing code is like, we talked"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2756.315,"endTime":2761.415,"body":"about PRs and small PRs and all"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2761.415,"endTime":2762.565,"body":"that in the previous session."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2763.46,"endTime":2765.38,"body":"Reviewing code is my bottleneck."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2765.78,"endTime":2769.78,"body":"Let me deploy an automation"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2765.78,"endTime":2769.78,"body":"or an I based solution that"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2769.78,"endTime":2771.43,"body":"helps me overcome this problem."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2771.62,"endTime":2775.83,"body":"So instead of like staying in the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2771.62,"endTime":2775.83,"body":"argument, let's take it to the next step."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2775.85,"endTime":2779.757,"body":"Let's build like an infrastructure"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2775.85,"endTime":2779.757,"body":"and a product that lets"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2779.757,"endTime":2781.007,"body":"you solve these problems."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2781.267,"endTime":2785.557,"body":"So I think it's really, really"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2781.267,"endTime":2785.557,"body":"important to go to the next phase."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2786.127,"endTime":2787.837,"body":"And here's the future that I see."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2787.887,"endTime":2789.227,"body":"maybe it's a bold prediction."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2789.857,"endTime":2792.417,"body":"We started seeing it with"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2789.857,"endTime":2792.417,"body":"customers, but I think it's going"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2792.417,"endTime":2794.747,"body":"to get more and more extreme."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2795.23,"endTime":2799.92,"body":"people that have awareness to developer"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2795.23,"endTime":2799.92,"body":"experience and they want to improve it."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2800.64,"endTime":2806.82,"body":"they're going to go from, an hour"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2800.64,"endTime":2806.82,"body":"from commit to production to minutes."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2807.43,"endTime":2811.45,"body":"Because they're going to have AI agents"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2807.43,"endTime":2811.45,"body":"working for them, solving pipeline issues."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2811.52,"endTime":2815.38,"body":"And people who are stuck behind,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2811.52,"endTime":2815.38,"body":"they're going to still stay"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2815.38,"endTime":2817.743,"body":"with, 20 days of a cycle time."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2818.093,"endTime":2822.273,"body":"So the gap is going to get so"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2818.093,"endTime":2822.273,"body":"big between, these companies."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2822.713,"endTime":2826.333,"body":"that's one of the problems that"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2822.713,"endTime":2826.333,"body":"I'm, I really, I'm really passionate"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2826.333,"endTime":2829.863,"body":"about and I'm eager to help like,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":2826.333,"endTime":2829.863,"body":"uh, organizations solve this problem."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2831.098,"endTime":2833.618,"body":"perhaps, like, in my"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2831.098,"endTime":2833.618,"body":"mind, I think about developer experience,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2833.618,"endTime":2836.198,"body":"it comes up as a new term, and I'm like,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2833.618,"endTime":2836.198,"body":"what does that even mean, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2836.198,"endTime":2839.728,"body":"because we talk to, 6, 000 companies"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2836.198,"endTime":2839.728,"body":"a year, and now there's, this trend"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2839.728,"endTime":2843.633,"body":"of developer experience, developer"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2839.728,"endTime":2843.633,"body":"productivity, and It's coming up."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2843.633,"endTime":2848.09,"body":"So when we think about it internally,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2843.633,"endTime":2848.09,"body":"it's kind of a simple framework where"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2848.62,"endTime":2850.25,"body":"developers are doing so much more."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2850.5,"endTime":2853.35,"body":"I told you they're doubling down as"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2850.5,"endTime":2853.35,"body":"data scientists, they're scanning"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2853.37,"endTime":2855.92,"body":"code in some cases, they're"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2853.37,"endTime":2855.92,"body":"taking security responsibility."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2856.41,"endTime":2857.69,"body":"These are things they want to do."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2858.12,"endTime":2861.72,"body":"And these are things that have an impact"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2858.12,"endTime":2861.72,"body":"on customers and the business, right?"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2861.99,"endTime":2863.79,"body":"And then there's things"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2861.99,"endTime":2863.79,"body":"that can be automated."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2864.8,"endTime":2867.21,"body":"Developer experience is like"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2864.8,"endTime":2867.21,"body":"achieving both of those goals."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2867.55,"endTime":2870.45,"body":"Take the highest impact things and"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2867.55,"endTime":2870.45,"body":"help them do it more effectively."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2870.9,"endTime":2873.68,"body":"Take the lower impact things that"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2870.9,"endTime":2873.68,"body":"have to be done and automate it."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2874.59,"endTime":2878.62,"body":"And then you iterate on that so that,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2874.59,"endTime":2878.62,"body":"you know, your most valuable resources,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2878.62,"endTime":2883.02,"body":"developers can drive the biggest impact"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2878.62,"endTime":2883.02,"body":"to your business without losing sight of"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2883.04,"endTime":2884.69,"body":"all the other things that need to be done."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2884.69,"endTime":2884.87,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2884.87,"endTime":2887.56,"body":"So finding that balance, I"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2884.87,"endTime":2887.56,"body":"think is super important."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2887.945,"endTime":2891.095,"body":"And without kind of focus on developer"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2887.945,"endTime":2891.095,"body":"experience, you can't achieve that."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2891.375,"endTime":2894.815,"body":"And what's encouraging is more and"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2891.375,"endTime":2894.815,"body":"more companies now seem to have like a"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2894.815,"endTime":2897.195,"body":"dedicated title for developer experience."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2897.205,"endTime":2899.375,"body":"There's a dedicated budget"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2897.205,"endTime":2899.375,"body":"for developer experience."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2899.375,"endTime":2904.455,"body":"So companies are recognizing that, Hey,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2899.375,"endTime":2904.455,"body":"by focusing on developer experience, you"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2904.455,"endTime":2909.365,"body":"can get a very clear ROI, but driving much"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2904.455,"endTime":2909.365,"body":"more kind of quality code and business"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2909.365,"endTime":2911.445,"body":"output, while keeping developers happy."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2911.445,"endTime":2914.345,"body":"So they don't lose, you know, you"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":2911.445,"endTime":2914.345,"body":"don't lose them to your competition."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2915.515,"endTime":2917.475,"body":"Yeah, and this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2915.515,"endTime":2917.475,"body":"is actually something I would"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2917.475,"endTime":2918.875,"body":"like to take to our audience now."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2918.875,"endTime":2922.025,"body":"So, so how many, through a raise of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2918.875,"endTime":2922.025,"body":"hands, have ever heard, usually this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2922.025,"endTime":2925.575,"body":"comes from a non engineering person,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2922.025,"endTime":2925.575,"body":"but have ever heard the statement, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2925.575,"endTime":2927.935,"body":"don't understand why we invest in DevEx?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2927.935,"endTime":2929.705,"body":"Have you ever heard that statement?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2930.865,"endTime":2932.325,"body":"Wow, no one has never heard that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2932.345,"endTime":2933.565,"body":"Oh, I've got Tara in the back."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2933.565,"endTime":2934.215,"body":"Thank you, Tara."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2936.005,"endTime":2941.585,"body":"Tara, did you successfully navigate that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2936.005,"endTime":2941.585,"body":"situation and make the argument for DevEx?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2941.635,"endTime":2944.005,"body":"And if so, would you like to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2941.635,"endTime":2944.005,"body":"come share how you did that?"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2945.155,"endTime":2947.425,"body":"God, I have"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2945.155,"endTime":2947.425,"body":"so many hot takes right now."},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2947.425,"endTime":2949.535,"body":"So I'm trying to focus on"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2947.425,"endTime":2949.535,"body":"this particular question."},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2949.945,"endTime":2952.395,"body":"so, you know, whether you call it"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2949.945,"endTime":2952.395,"body":"developer experience, developer"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2952.395,"endTime":2954.935,"body":"productivity, back in the day,"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2952.395,"endTime":2954.935,"body":"we called it, you know, the build"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2954.935,"endTime":2957.575,"body":"release team or the infrastructure"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2954.935,"endTime":2957.575,"body":"team or the platform team, right?"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2957.575,"endTime":2962.765,"body":"It's the, the act of supporting"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2957.575,"endTime":2962.765,"body":"the ecosystem and the environment"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2962.845,"endTime":2966.905,"body":"within which a developer works"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2962.845,"endTime":2966.905,"body":"has had many names over the years."},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2966.935,"endTime":2969.675,"body":"And as someone who has done"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2966.935,"endTime":2969.675,"body":"almost entirely this work."},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2970.235,"endTime":2972.865,"body":"Most of the time I've had to justify"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2970.235,"endTime":2972.865,"body":"existence because, you know, I'm"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2972.865,"endTime":2976.615,"body":"listening to, to Darmesh, you know,"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2972.865,"endTime":2976.615,"body":"it's like, Oh, look at the developers"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2976.615,"endTime":2977.585,"body":"focusing on the right thing."},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2977.835,"endTime":2979.705,"body":"Well, what, how do you"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2977.835,"endTime":2979.705,"body":"define the right thing?"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2979.755,"endTime":2980.965,"body":"I think is the interesting thing."},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2980.965,"endTime":2984.805,"body":"And so if a platform team, infrastructure"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2980.965,"endTime":2984.805,"body":"team, DevEx team is able to be a"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2984.805,"endTime":2989.245,"body":"multiplier and you can show the data"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2984.805,"endTime":2989.245,"body":"that supports that, then that becomes"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2989.245,"endTime":2990.945,"body":"a really easy argument, which is why."},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2991.28,"endTime":2995.29,"body":"You know, things like these reports come"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2991.28,"endTime":2995.29,"body":"out, I think it's increasingly less of"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2995.3,"endTime":2999.24,"body":"an issue, but for the first 20 years of"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2995.3,"endTime":2999.24,"body":"my career, it was absolutely an issue."},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2999.24,"endTime":3003.23,"body":"And what you had to show every year"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":2999.24,"endTime":3003.23,"body":"when budget season came around is"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":3003.23,"endTime":3005.41,"body":"what value add, are you contributing?"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":3006.08,"endTime":3009.7,"body":"So, I will pause there, otherwise I will"},{"speaker":"Audience member 3","startTime":3006.08,"endTime":3009.7,"body":"totally derail your whole conversation."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3010.58,"endTime":3011.21,"body":"Yeah, I appreciate it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3011.21,"endTime":3012.39,"body":"No, that's, that's wonderful."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3012.68,"endTime":3016.3,"body":"Um, so, I'd actually like to ask"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3012.68,"endTime":3016.3,"body":"both of you, like, if, if someone"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3016.3,"endTime":3019.25,"body":"were investing into DevEx today,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3016.3,"endTime":3019.25,"body":"where would you recommend they start"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3019.816,"endTime":3023.336,"body":"I would say always, start"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3019.816,"endTime":3023.336,"body":"with measuring, but don't stop there."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3023.823,"endTime":3027.816,"body":"Find your best way to measure"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3023.823,"endTime":3027.816,"body":"whether it's like, um, I'm a strong"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3027.816,"endTime":3029.646,"body":"believer in quantitative metrics."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3029.706,"endTime":3034.196,"body":"I always say like, when you only"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3029.706,"endTime":3034.196,"body":"based on qual, I always give this"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3034.196,"endTime":3039.126,"body":"analogy of like, uh, sales leader"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3034.196,"endTime":3039.126,"body":"coming into, staff meeting the mesh."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3039.126,"endTime":3041.406,"body":"imagine sales data coming"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3039.126,"endTime":3041.406,"body":"into staff meeting."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3041.891,"endTime":3048.521,"body":"And saying, I don't need the empiric"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3041.891,"endTime":3048.521,"body":"metrics around my funnel in sales."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3049.521,"endTime":3054.891,"body":"I don't need to know how much like,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3049.521,"endTime":3054.891,"body":"SQLs, opportunities, customers I have."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3055.431,"endTime":3058.231,"body":"I'm just basing myself on"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3055.431,"endTime":3058.231,"body":"what the reps are telling me."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3058.621,"endTime":3060.891,"body":"So I think the same thing"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3058.621,"endTime":3060.891,"body":"needs to happen in engineering."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3060.921,"endTime":3064.561,"body":"You gotta have empiric"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3060.921,"endTime":3064.561,"body":"data, and qualitative data"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3064.741,"endTime":3065.771,"body":"can definitely support it."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3066.506,"endTime":3068.506,"body":"so I would start with"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3066.506,"endTime":3068.506,"body":"measuring, definitely."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3068.826,"endTime":3069.986,"body":"but it wouldn't stop there."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3070.156,"endTime":3074.076,"body":"Wouldn't stop there, like, because the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3070.156,"endTime":3074.076,"body":"most frustrating thing is to see the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3074.076,"endTime":3076.446,"body":"problems and not giving tools to fix them."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3078.166,"endTime":3080.846,"body":"Yeah, that's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3078.166,"endTime":3080.846,"body":"actually, that's a great, great insight."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3081.186,"endTime":3083.966,"body":"I think I'll just move on"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3081.186,"endTime":3083.966,"body":"to our next prediction, man."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3083.966,"endTime":3088.073,"body":"And that's, you know, it starts to get"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3083.966,"endTime":3088.073,"body":"into how, the rules of developers are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3088.103,"endTime":3090.373,"body":"likely to change over the coming years."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3090.943,"endTime":3096.003,"body":"we've talked a little bit"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3090.943,"endTime":3096.003,"body":"tonight about how, AI, Gen AI,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3096.143,"endTime":3097.633,"body":"machine learning stuff like that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3098.123,"endTime":3101.893,"body":"That is becoming a thing that really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3098.123,"endTime":3101.893,"body":"all developers need to be focused on."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3101.903,"endTime":3106.183,"body":"So, developers are going to be"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3101.903,"endTime":3106.183,"body":"asked to have a broader skill set."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3106.503,"endTime":3110.123,"body":"There's going to be more emphasis on"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3106.503,"endTime":3110.123,"body":"integrating AI and machine learning"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3110.133,"endTime":3113.353,"body":"into applications, using various models."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3113.923,"endTime":3117.463,"body":"and many developers are going to need"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3113.923,"endTime":3117.463,"body":"to become much more familiar with."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3118.123,"endTime":3122.863,"body":"Things like building, deploying, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3118.123,"endTime":3122.863,"body":"know, leveraging, monitoring AI models and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3122.873,"endTime":3126.563,"body":"integrating them into applications, even"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3122.873,"endTime":3126.563,"body":"if they don't specialize with these tools."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3126.933,"endTime":3128.923,"body":"and in fact, there's a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3126.933,"endTime":3128.923,"body":"products that are coming out that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3128.943,"endTime":3132.283,"body":"are specifically for developers"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3128.943,"endTime":3132.283,"body":"who aren't specialists in this."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3133.253,"endTime":3138.113,"body":"there's also, we think maybe a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3133.253,"endTime":3138.113,"body":"good chance that productivity as"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3138.113,"endTime":3143.253,"body":"a whole, like is going to start to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3138.113,"endTime":3143.253,"body":"become a, a job function for people."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3143.283,"endTime":3148.113,"body":"to the point where we may even see the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3143.283,"endTime":3148.113,"body":"rise of like DevOps engineers that, that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3148.173,"endTime":3152.603,"body":"like focus more on productivity, like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3148.173,"endTime":3152.603,"body":"a productivity engineer, for example."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3152.943,"endTime":3156.113,"body":"and then the last two I actually added at"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3152.943,"endTime":3156.113,"body":"your request, Ori, so I'm interested to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3156.113,"endTime":3159.823,"body":"see what you had to say about them, but,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3156.113,"endTime":3159.823,"body":"you know, two technologies that really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3159.823,"endTime":3165.273,"body":"seem to be becoming more commonplace at"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3159.823,"endTime":3165.273,"body":"a pretty rapid rate are cloud based IDEs"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3165.303,"endTime":3170.393,"body":"and serverless technologies, so, I know"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3165.303,"endTime":3170.393,"body":"some of these get a little groaned, we get"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3170.393,"endTime":3173.513,"body":"some groans from people because they've"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3170.393,"endTime":3173.513,"body":"tried these tools in the past and haven't"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3173.513,"endTime":3178.053,"body":"been completely convinced, but, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3173.513,"endTime":3178.053,"body":"more things are moving into the cloud,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3178.053,"endTime":3181.863,"body":"they're offering better integrations"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3178.053,"endTime":3181.863,"body":"and debugging and collaboration."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3182.213,"endTime":3185.753,"body":"and then serverless is just making"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3182.213,"endTime":3185.753,"body":"it easier to decouple development"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3185.983,"endTime":3187.783,"body":"from the actual deployment services."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3187.783,"endTime":3190.773,"body":"So, how do you think that, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3187.783,"endTime":3190.773,"body":"know, developers roles are going"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3190.773,"endTime":3192.393,"body":"to change over the coming years?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3192.823,"endTime":3197.123,"body":"Yeah, so cloud based"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3192.823,"endTime":3197.123,"body":"ideas definitely are very important."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3197.768,"endTime":3203.628,"body":"Interesting, the way they evolve, I"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3197.768,"endTime":3203.628,"body":"actually want to focus, on the roles that"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3203.628,"endTime":3206.028,"body":"I see that, I think are going to be new."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3206.038,"endTime":3210.808,"body":"So we talked about the fact that"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3206.038,"endTime":3210.808,"body":"almost every engineer, every developer"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3210.818,"endTime":3213.878,"body":"would need to know how do I adopt AI."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3214.738,"endTime":3223.608,"body":"We're a full stack backend, whatever I"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3214.738,"endTime":3223.608,"body":"do, then I think that some two interesting"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3223.608,"endTime":3229.49,"body":"roles or this one is, like to think"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3223.608,"endTime":3229.49,"body":"about InfoSec, I think there's going"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3229.49,"endTime":3234.63,"body":"to be people that specialize in InfoSec"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3229.49,"endTime":3234.63,"body":"in I can see it right now in contracts"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3234.63,"endTime":3237.136,"body":"that we have, Which one does it use?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3237.146,"endTime":3238.476,"body":"Where do you deploy them?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3239.046,"endTime":3240.646,"body":"how do we attack IP?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3240.856,"endTime":3245.016,"body":"how do we make sure that the models"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3240.856,"endTime":3245.016,"body":"don't learn on the data we send them."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3245.306,"endTime":3248.676,"body":"there's going to be a role of"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3245.306,"endTime":3248.676,"body":"InfoSec specializing on AI."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3249.246,"endTime":3250.166,"body":"So that's one thing."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3250.756,"endTime":3254.526,"body":"And I think there's two interesting"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3250.756,"endTime":3254.526,"body":"roles, that I think are going to evolve."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3254.556,"endTime":3257.646,"body":"I think there's going to be"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3254.556,"endTime":3257.646,"body":"an end of AI development."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3258.193,"endTime":3262.753,"body":"And if we build the right infrastructure"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3258.193,"endTime":3262.753,"body":"for these people, they're going to"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3262.753,"endTime":3268.623,"body":"be the people that are going to say,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3262.753,"endTime":3268.623,"body":"okay, here's where we're allowing like"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3268.683,"endTime":3275.203,"body":"agents to take, a simple task out of a"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3268.683,"endTime":3275.203,"body":"Jira queue and start working on them."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3275.933,"endTime":3278.943,"body":"And here's the policy where"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3275.933,"endTime":3278.943,"body":"we're not allowing you to do it."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3279.591,"endTime":3283.061,"body":"here is like where we're"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3279.591,"endTime":3283.061,"body":"allowing, um, you know, to find"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3283.061,"endTime":3285.231,"body":"a bug and fix it automatically."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3285.841,"endTime":3288.161,"body":"And here's what we're"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3285.841,"endTime":3288.161,"body":"not allowing you to do."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3288.161,"endTime":3292.321,"body":"So you're going to have a head"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3288.161,"endTime":3292.321,"body":"of AI development that defines"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3292.341,"endTime":3294.391,"body":"the policies, implements them."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3294.851,"endTime":3297.941,"body":"And then you're going to have the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3294.851,"endTime":3297.941,"body":"practitioners that hopefully they"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3297.941,"endTime":3299.401,"body":"have a product to do it with."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3299.911,"endTime":3303.201,"body":"They've kind of like write the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3299.911,"endTime":3303.201,"body":"rules, write the policies that says"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3303.221,"endTime":3307.501,"body":"like, Maybe in this microservice"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3303.221,"endTime":3307.501,"body":"I'm allowing more, maybe in this"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3307.501,"endTime":3310.291,"body":"microservice I'm less permissive."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3310.671,"endTime":3315.161,"body":"So, I foresee like these two very,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3310.671,"endTime":3315.161,"body":"very interesting roles ahead of AI"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3315.171,"endTime":3320.955,"body":"development and kind of the practitioner"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3315.171,"endTime":3320.955,"body":"that does it day to day, that are going"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3320.955,"endTime":3324.735,"body":"to, I don't know if they're going to"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3320.955,"endTime":3324.735,"body":"sit inside a developer experience team"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3324.735,"endTime":3329.145,"body":"or in other things, but these are two"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3324.735,"endTime":3329.145,"body":"very interesting roles that I can see."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3329.851,"endTime":3332.081,"body":"maybe,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3329.851,"endTime":3332.081,"body":"uh, slightly different takes"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3332.081,"endTime":3333.381,"body":"like full stack engineering."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3333.441,"endTime":3335.481,"body":"It was kind of a merger"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3333.441,"endTime":3335.481,"body":"between front end back end."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3335.851,"endTime":3339.171,"body":"I think in the next couple of years,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3335.851,"endTime":3339.171,"body":"full stack implies front end back end,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3339.481,"endTime":3341.871,"body":"security scanning and engineering."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3341.871,"endTime":3345.011,"body":"It's like, you know, full stack"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3341.871,"endTime":3345.011,"body":"engineer will expect it to"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3345.431,"endTime":3346.781,"body":"touch all those aspects, right?"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3347.381,"endTime":3352.321,"body":"And the second thing I see changing is"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3347.381,"endTime":3352.321,"body":"even though engineers are not responsible"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3352.331,"endTime":3356.591,"body":"for some of the downstream things when"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3352.331,"endTime":3356.591,"body":"it comes to CI and CD selection, when it"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3356.601,"endTime":3361.051,"body":"comes to observability tools, it comes"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3356.601,"endTime":3361.051,"body":"to feature flagging tools, if you will,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3361.541,"endTime":3363.631,"body":"they still become heavy influencers."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3363.881,"endTime":3368.161,"body":"A lot of developers are trying these tools"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3363.881,"endTime":3368.161,"body":"and influencing what the standard should"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3368.171,"endTime":3370.871,"body":"be for other teams to, to standardize on."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3370.871,"endTime":3373.411,"body":"So a lot of purchase decisions within IT."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3374.276,"endTime":3378.086,"body":"Are going through the route of developers,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3374.276,"endTime":3378.086,"body":"trying them and influencing them and the"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3378.096,"endTime":3383.246,"body":"things developers do kind of encompasses"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3378.096,"endTime":3383.246,"body":"a much larger exposure area, if you will,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3383.556,"endTime":3384.986,"body":"you may ask, how do you do all that?"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3385.006,"endTime":3388.636,"body":"It's because a lot of the work that"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3385.006,"endTime":3388.636,"body":"they had to do, you know, can be"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3388.656,"endTime":3391.806,"body":"automated now, which frees up time for"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3388.656,"endTime":3391.806,"body":"them to do the more strategic work."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3392.55,"endTime":3392.92,"body":"It's great."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3392.92,"endTime":3397.94,"body":"So I'm wondering from our audience by show"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3392.92,"endTime":3397.94,"body":"of hands again, how many of you have Okay."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3398.43,"endTime":3402.84,"body":"Put somebody whose job it is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3398.43,"endTime":3402.84,"body":"to lead your effort to work AI"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3402.86,"endTime":3406.35,"body":"into your product, either on the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3402.86,"endTime":3406.35,"body":"engineering or the product side."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3407.706,"endTime":3409.496,"body":"Yeah, I see a couple hands back there."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3409.506,"endTime":3411.299,"body":"Do either of you want"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3409.506,"endTime":3411.299,"body":"to share your opinion?"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3412.437,"endTime":3413.107,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3413.137,"endTime":3416.487,"body":"So, we, well, it's for us,"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3413.137,"endTime":3416.487,"body":"people that already do CI, CD."},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3416.487,"endTime":3418.367,"body":"So we have kind of two facets of that."},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3418.367,"endTime":3423.847,"body":"One, we look at how we can improve"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3418.367,"endTime":3423.847,"body":"the workflow for our customers."},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3424.242,"endTime":3424.512,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3424.542,"endTime":3428.592,"body":"So how do we integrate capabilities"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3424.542,"endTime":3428.592,"body":"into our product based on, you know,"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3428.612,"endTime":3430.982,"body":"I was sparing the details of all that."},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3430.992,"endTime":3434.922,"body":"The other is actually that we have"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3430.992,"endTime":3434.922,"body":"a large number of customers who"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3434.922,"endTime":3436.522,"body":"are doing the same thing, right?"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3436.522,"endTime":3439.772,"body":"So they're trying to figure out"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3436.522,"endTime":3439.772,"body":"how to deliver software with,"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3440.862,"endTime":3443.932,"body":"you know, AI capabilities, how"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3440.862,"endTime":3443.932,"body":"everyone described backed by LLMs."},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3443.942,"endTime":3448.482,"body":"How do we help them build and validate"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3443.942,"endTime":3448.482,"body":"those capabilities so they can"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3448.482,"endTime":3449.972,"body":"confidently put them out into production?"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3449.972,"endTime":3452.957,"body":"So like our whole"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3449.972,"endTime":3452.957,"body":"ecosystem, It's changing."},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3452.957,"endTime":3456.347,"body":"And I think now I'm going to just go on"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3452.957,"endTime":3456.347,"body":"a tangent and talk about what you were"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3456.347,"endTime":3459.499,"body":"talking about before, but like, as we"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3456.347,"endTime":3459.499,"body":"look at this, I think a lot of what you're"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3459.509,"endTime":3463.289,"body":"what you're talking about here is like"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3459.509,"endTime":3463.289,"body":"the next year, the next two years, right?"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3463.289,"endTime":3468.979,"body":"It's like, how do we subtly change what"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3463.289,"endTime":3468.979,"body":"we do from a software perspective, right?"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3468.999,"endTime":3473.219,"body":"How do I get some code generated so I"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3468.999,"endTime":3473.219,"body":"don't just write the code kind of thing?"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3473.539,"endTime":3478.649,"body":"But one of the things that we spend a lot"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3473.539,"endTime":3478.649,"body":"of time thinking about, given that we're"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3478.649,"endTime":3484.119,"body":"in the flow of software delivery, is how"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3478.649,"endTime":3484.119,"body":"does software fundamentally change five"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3484.119,"endTime":3487.359,"body":"years from now, ten years from now, there"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3484.119,"endTime":3487.359,"body":"was a quote up there about 2040, right?"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3487.369,"endTime":3490.639,"body":"Like, are we just generating the"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3487.369,"endTime":3490.639,"body":"same programming languages that"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3490.639,"endTime":3492.789,"body":"we're writing ourselves in 2024?"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3493.189,"endTime":3494.239,"body":"I don't think so."},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3494.469,"endTime":3497.559,"body":"I think we'll construct software"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3494.469,"endTime":3497.559,"body":"in entirely different ways that"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3497.559,"endTime":3499.069,"body":"we haven't reasoned about yet."},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3499.459,"endTime":3503.789,"body":"And so, if you're in the software"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3499.459,"endTime":3503.789,"body":"delivery industry, You need"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3503.799,"endTime":3505.009,"body":"to be thinking about that."},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3505.019,"endTime":3509.179,"body":"Not just, like, can I write code"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3505.019,"endTime":3509.179,"body":"faster because I have a coding"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3509.179,"endTime":3511.349,"body":"assistant, but do we write code?"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3511.429,"endTime":3515.129,"body":"Like, is that how we give machine"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3511.429,"endTime":3515.129,"body":"instructions when the machines are"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3515.139,"endTime":3518.529,"body":"generating the instructions and the"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3515.139,"endTime":3518.529,"body":"machines are receiving the instructions?"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3518.529,"endTime":3521.109,"body":"Why are we writing it in a programming"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3518.529,"endTime":3521.109,"body":"language designed for humans?"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3521.969,"endTime":3526.599,"body":"And what happens when, can you just"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3521.969,"endTime":3526.599,"body":"link, like right now we ask a model,"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3526.739,"endTime":3531.239,"body":"can you please generate a webpage"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3526.739,"endTime":3531.239,"body":"so that if someone hits this URL,"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3531.239,"endTime":3532.579,"body":"this webpage will be returned."},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3532.839,"endTime":3536.099,"body":"Why don't we tell them, the model,"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3532.839,"endTime":3536.099,"body":"when someone hits that URL, return"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3536.099,"endTime":3537.299,"body":"a webpage that looks like this."},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3537.784,"endTime":3538.034,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3538.064,"endTime":3540.494,"body":"Like, why are we writing"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3538.064,"endTime":3540.494,"body":"code at that point?"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3540.884,"endTime":3543.244,"body":"I don't know what the answer is to"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3540.884,"endTime":3543.244,"body":"that question, but I think there's"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3543.434,"endTime":3546.634,"body":"much more interesting problems 5"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3543.434,"endTime":3546.634,"body":"years out and 10 years out than"},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3546.634,"endTime":3548.254,"body":"there are in the next 12 months."},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3548.934,"endTime":3549.834,"body":"So we're thinking about all of them."},{"speaker":"Audience member 4","startTime":3550.114,"endTime":3550.414,"body":"That's my"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3550.414,"endTime":3550.564,"body":"answer."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3550.614,"endTime":3554.014,"body":"Yeah, and it's great that you can have"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3550.614,"endTime":3554.014,"body":"that long term of an insight, too."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3554.014,"endTime":3556.454,"body":"You know, it's, I think,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3554.014,"endTime":3556.454,"body":"very valuable to have."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3557.209,"endTime":3560.859,"body":"So, yeah, so that brings us to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3557.209,"endTime":3560.859,"body":"our last prediction that we have."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3561.179,"endTime":3564.829,"body":"And this is actually one that I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3561.179,"endTime":3564.829,"body":"added to this list because, it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3564.829,"endTime":3568.269,"body":"come up in a couple of conversations"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3564.829,"endTime":3568.269,"body":"I've had on Dev Interrupted."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3568.509,"endTime":3571.299,"body":"specifically one with, Bernd"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3568.509,"endTime":3571.299,"body":"Ruecker here that, should be"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3571.299,"endTime":3573.349,"body":"coming out next month in January."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3573.749,"endTime":3577.109,"body":"and that's the rise of this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3573.749,"endTime":3577.109,"body":"concept of citizen developers."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3577.109,"endTime":3579.429,"body":"And specifically, I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3577.109,"endTime":3579.429,"body":"you're going to see."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3579.689,"endTime":3584.259,"body":"Non technical and less technical"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3579.689,"endTime":3584.259,"body":"people start to play more technical"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3584.259,"endTime":3586.099,"body":"roles within your organization."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3586.569,"endTime":3587.849,"body":"low code, no code."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3587.859,"endTime":3589.869,"body":"These platforms have"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3587.859,"endTime":3589.869,"body":"been around for a while."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3590.099,"endTime":3592.949,"body":"Usually when I bring them up"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3590.099,"endTime":3592.949,"body":"audiences like this roll their eyes"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3592.949,"endTime":3595.659,"body":"and think, oh, that'll never happen"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3592.949,"endTime":3595.659,"body":"it's not going to work for us."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3596.059,"endTime":3596.459,"body":"but."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3597.214,"endTime":3601.414,"body":"these platforms are continuing to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3597.214,"endTime":3601.414,"body":"evolve and non developers are being"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3601.424,"endTime":3606.144,"body":"given more and more capabilities"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3601.424,"endTime":3606.144,"body":"to deploy applications, integrate"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3606.144,"endTime":3611.75,"body":"with various systems, with APIs and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3606.144,"endTime":3611.75,"body":"databases, and, engineering teams"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3611.75,"endTime":3616.71,"body":"are going to become less dependent"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3611.75,"endTime":3616.71,"body":"on developers to produce things that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3616.95,"endTime":3618.83,"body":"sometimes actually go into production."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3618.86,"endTime":3622.23,"body":"It may not be your, your"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3618.86,"endTime":3622.23,"body":"central app or service."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3622.565,"endTime":3626.265,"body":"but they are often building things"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3622.565,"endTime":3626.265,"body":"that touch customers in some ways."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3626.975,"endTime":3630.485,"body":"and as a part of this, I think we're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3626.975,"endTime":3630.485,"body":"also likely to see quite a few more,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3630.795,"endTime":3632.945,"body":"integrated tool collaboration tools."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3632.955,"endTime":3638.315,"body":"So, you know, expect more sophisticated"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3632.955,"endTime":3638.315,"body":"tooling that blends developer tools and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3638.325,"endTime":3641.465,"body":"IDEs with more feature rich capabilities."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3641.475,"endTime":3642.675,"body":"So kind of imagine like."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3642.99,"endTime":3644.38,"body":"Google docs for code."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3644.7,"endTime":3647.56,"body":"and this would allow, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3644.7,"endTime":3647.56,"body":"teams of all technical levels."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3647.61,"endTime":3652.51,"body":"to collaborate on code, to discuss changes"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3647.61,"endTime":3652.51,"body":"and resolve issues, in environments"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3652.51,"endTime":3654.16,"body":"that are more familiar with them."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3654.6,"endTime":3658.22,"body":"So I'd like to hear what you all think"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3654.6,"endTime":3658.22,"body":"about, this rise, you know, we've, we've"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3658.22,"endTime":3662.03,"body":"already talked about senior developers and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3658.22,"endTime":3662.03,"body":"how they're likely to be impacted, but."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3662.405,"endTime":3665.525,"body":"There's also going to be a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3662.405,"endTime":3665.525,"body":"impacts to people who aren't nearly"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3665.525,"endTime":3667.215,"body":"as advanced in their capabilities."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3667.225,"endTime":3668.235,"body":"So what do you think about that?"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3668.665,"endTime":3670.765,"body":"Yeah, I think,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3668.665,"endTime":3670.765,"body":"it didn't start yesterday."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3671.285,"endTime":3675.945,"body":"Low code, no code is like, especially"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3671.285,"endTime":3675.945,"body":"in internal IT applications"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3675.975,"endTime":3677.685,"body":"is getting a lot of momentum."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3677.695,"endTime":3683.305,"body":"I think AI will accelerate it because,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3677.695,"endTime":3683.305,"body":"if I have a challenge and I don't"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3683.305,"endTime":3688.405,"body":"know what to write in the epics,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3683.305,"endTime":3688.405,"body":"you know, trigger inside Salesforce"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3688.405,"endTime":3689.935,"body":"and the custom objects, I will."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3690.475,"endTime":3692.975,"body":"Ask ChatGPT and it will"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3690.475,"endTime":3692.975,"body":"tell me the answer."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3692.985,"endTime":3697.015,"body":"So it will only accelerate"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3692.985,"endTime":3697.015,"body":"like, this type of problems."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3697.555,"endTime":3703.765,"body":"I think, just for us, I've seen like"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3697.555,"endTime":3703.765,"body":"three cases lately where, in all the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3703.785,"endTime":3709.475,"body":"go to market sales, stack, we have"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3703.785,"endTime":3709.475,"body":"people coming, Hey, how can we create"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3709.475,"endTime":3713.615,"body":"a better architecture, et cetera, and"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3709.475,"endTime":3713.615,"body":"all the challenges that we know that"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3713.615,"endTime":3719.24,"body":"are going to come with people that"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3713.615,"endTime":3719.24,"body":"are working with low code, I even"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3719.24,"endTime":3724.53,"body":"had the VP of finance is here saying,"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3719.24,"endTime":3724.53,"body":"Hey, can we get somebody to integrate"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3724.53,"endTime":3727.4,"body":"Zapier to another system, et cetera."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3727.57,"endTime":3729.38,"body":"It's happening all over the place."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3729.89,"endTime":3733.84,"body":"I think the two challenges"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3729.89,"endTime":3733.84,"body":"that it will bring, number one."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3734.295,"endTime":3740.165,"body":"It will create a lot of shadow"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3734.295,"endTime":3740.165,"body":"IT, not just, uh, hey, vetted"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3740.165,"endTime":3741.375,"body":"apps that you can't use."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3741.395,"endTime":3746.235,"body":"Even if it's apps that you can use, you"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3741.395,"endTime":3746.235,"body":"might use them extensively and give them"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3746.235,"endTime":3748.865,"body":"more access that you want to give them."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3749.565,"endTime":3750.645,"body":"so that's, that's one problem."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3750.645,"endTime":3754.491,"body":"And the second problem, it, it"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3750.645,"endTime":3754.491,"body":"will create, unless you put a lot"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3754.491,"endTime":3759.671,"body":"of energy into it, And treat it"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3754.491,"endTime":3759.671,"body":"almost like as, you know, regular"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3759.671,"endTime":3762.781,"body":"development and major technical debt."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3763.641,"endTime":3768.631,"body":"I can see companies that have broken"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3763.641,"endTime":3768.631,"body":"Salesforce architecture, and the price"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3768.661,"endTime":3773.951,"body":"they pay on, the speed of road market"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3768.661,"endTime":3773.951,"body":"operations or others, um, is big."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3774.926,"endTime":3778.806,"body":"And so it is interesting, it"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3774.926,"endTime":3778.806,"body":"is going to accelerate, and the"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3778.806,"endTime":3780.286,"body":"problems are going to get bigger."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3781.01,"endTime":3783.1,"body":"In many ways, we've"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3781.01,"endTime":3783.1,"body":"kind of seen this before, if you"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3783.19,"endTime":3787.58,"body":"remember like 10 years ago, it used to"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3783.19,"endTime":3787.58,"body":"be that any company that was getting"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3787.58,"endTime":3791.69,"body":"started, had to first spend 10 million"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3787.58,"endTime":3791.69,"body":"on getting a data center by servers."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3792.0,"endTime":3795.59,"body":"And then cloud came along, and you're"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3792.0,"endTime":3795.59,"body":"like, oh, I can build an application on"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3795.6,"endTime":3801.13,"body":"AWS in a matter of, you know, months and,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3795.6,"endTime":3801.13,"body":"you know, for one tenth the cost, right?"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3801.7,"endTime":3803.67,"body":"And then the focus shifted"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3801.7,"endTime":3803.67,"body":"to software engineering."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3804.15,"endTime":3805.94,"body":"Now the same thing seems"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3804.15,"endTime":3805.94,"body":"to be happening here."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3806.29,"endTime":3808.88,"body":"Now it feels like, hey,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3806.29,"endTime":3808.88,"body":"software developers can get"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3808.89,"endTime":3810.22,"body":"the first application going."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3810.59,"endTime":3812.71,"body":"You need a citizen developer"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3810.59,"endTime":3812.71,"body":"who can go build it."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3812.72,"endTime":3815.79,"body":"A product manager can use a"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3812.72,"endTime":3815.79,"body":"natural language interface and"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3815.79,"endTime":3818.34,"body":"get some prototype of a product"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3815.79,"endTime":3818.34,"body":"they can test with a customer."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3818.79,"endTime":3819.73,"body":"And we're seeing this happen."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3819.73,"endTime":3824.07,"body":"Like, I've never seen companies that"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3819.73,"endTime":3824.07,"body":"are five, ten people who get the"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3824.07,"endTime":3827.74,"body":"first product out in six months and"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3824.07,"endTime":3827.74,"body":"get to like two million dollars in"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3827.74,"endTime":3829.27,"body":"revenue across a hundred customers."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3829.67,"endTime":3830.03,"body":"You're like,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3830.15,"endTime":3831.11,"body":"wow, this is crazy."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3832.405,"endTime":3837.235,"body":"And I think the trend is pointing to"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3832.405,"endTime":3837.235,"body":"is that, you know, it's becoming much"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3837.235,"endTime":3843.835,"body":"easier to generate logical blocks"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3837.235,"endTime":3843.835,"body":"of code using AI and automate the"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3844.181,"endTime":3848.061,"body":"pull request merges and downstream"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3844.181,"endTime":3848.061,"body":"delivery of that code and ultimately"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3848.171,"endTime":3849.811,"body":"test with customers much faster."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3849.811,"endTime":3851.741,"body":"So this trend is going to continue."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3852.091,"endTime":3855.021,"body":"And as a result of that,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3852.091,"endTime":3855.021,"body":"I think the emphasis of."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3855.396,"endTime":3859.156,"body":"Software is going to focus a lot"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3855.396,"endTime":3859.156,"body":"more on customer delight, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3859.156,"endTime":3861.246,"body":"the user experience, time to value."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3861.556,"endTime":3864.316,"body":"but I think it definitely"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3861.556,"endTime":3864.316,"body":"accelerates the pace of innovation."},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3864.586,"endTime":3867.726,"body":"The same way we saw cloud"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3864.586,"endTime":3867.726,"body":"accelerate the pace of, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dharmesh Thakker","startTime":3867.726,"endTime":3869.026,"body":"company launches 10 years ago."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3870.361,"endTime":3873.161,"body":"Yeah, and I think one"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3870.361,"endTime":3873.161,"body":"thing that sometimes gets overlooked,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3873.191,"endTime":3877.221,"body":"that's really critical in this is that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3873.191,"endTime":3877.221,"body":"when you have people getting involved"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3877.221,"endTime":3881.071,"body":"in the development process, who don't"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3877.221,"endTime":3881.071,"body":"have a lot of experience doing it, they"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3881.071,"endTime":3885.641,"body":"aren't familiar at all with the processes"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3881.071,"endTime":3885.641,"body":"that a typical development team works."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3885.891,"endTime":3890.001,"body":"So they, they may not even know things"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3885.891,"endTime":3890.001,"body":"as simple as like PR should be smaller"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3890.001,"endTime":3891.701,"body":"because they're easier to review."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3891.741,"endTime":3892.081,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3892.081,"endTime":3894.571,"body":"Like, so there's, there's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3892.081,"endTime":3894.571,"body":"actually a level of just."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3894.898,"endTime":3899.318,"body":"Norm, normalizing that has to happen"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3894.898,"endTime":3899.318,"body":"often with when you have large, we've"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3899.318,"endTime":3903.848,"body":"seen this, we've seen this with larger"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3899.318,"endTime":3903.848,"body":"companies we've spoken to where they hire,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3903.858,"endTime":3907.208,"body":"you know, large numbers of developers"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3903.858,"endTime":3907.208,"body":"straight out of college who maybe come"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3907.208,"endTime":3911.298,"body":"from less technical backgrounds and just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3907.208,"endTime":3911.298,"body":"some of the most basic practices that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3911.348,"endTime":3915.718,"body":"developers normalize pretty quickly from,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3911.348,"endTime":3915.718,"body":"maybe just a year or two experience."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3916.018,"endTime":3917.978,"body":"These people have almost no awareness of."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3917.978,"endTime":3918.148,"body":"So."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3918.648,"endTime":3922.648,"body":"You know, being able to like establish"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3918.648,"endTime":3922.648,"body":"norms around, how, what we expect"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3922.698,"endTime":3926.628,"body":"in our code, making sure that you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3922.698,"endTime":3926.628,"body":"also use the same tools that you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3926.628,"endTime":3927.978,"body":"use for your development stats."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3927.978,"endTime":3931.898,"body":"even if it's low code, it should still"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3927.978,"endTime":3931.898,"body":"be run through your CI, CD system"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3931.898,"endTime":3935.668,"body":"and have a QA process and, all the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3931.898,"endTime":3935.668,"body":"various typical things that would"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3935.668,"endTime":3937.188,"body":"come along with software development."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3937.188,"endTime":3940.388,"body":"But you're often, often dealing with the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3937.188,"endTime":3940.388,"body":"group of people that really don't have"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3940.388,"endTime":3942.328,"body":"a lot of experience with those things."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3942.638,"endTime":3944.078,"body":"And I think that has to be accounted for."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3944.558,"endTime":3948.678,"body":"Yeah, it's even like, most"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3944.558,"endTime":3948.678,"body":"of the code you develop in Salesforce"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3948.678,"endTime":3953.528,"body":"and in these IT applications, it's not"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3948.678,"endTime":3953.528,"body":"even like I maintained in, You know, in"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3953.528,"endTime":3958.578,"body":"source control or it's local and today"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3953.528,"endTime":3958.578,"body":"in environments, I know there's companies"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3958.618,"endTime":3960.178,"body":"who are trying to solve this problem."},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3960.458,"endTime":3965.488,"body":"but yeah, the practices and"},{"speaker":"Ori Keren","startTime":3960.458,"endTime":3965.488,"body":"the methodologies are behind."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3966.145,"endTime":3969.385,"body":"Yeah, so that,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3966.145,"endTime":3969.385,"body":"those are our predictions for today."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3969.435,"endTime":3971.555,"body":"and unfortunately we don't have"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3969.435,"endTime":3971.555,"body":"time for a Q\u0026 A because we're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3971.555,"endTime":3973.045,"body":"a little behind our schedule."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3973.345,"endTime":3976.995,"body":"but Ori, Dharmesh, I want to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3973.345,"endTime":3976.995,"body":"thank you for coming in today."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3977.005,"endTime":3979.135,"body":"So if you all can give"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3977.005,"endTime":3979.135,"body":"them a round of applause."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3979.415,"endTime":3980.235,"body":"Thank you very much."}]}