{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":8.537,"endTime":9.387,"body":"to Dev Interrupted."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":9.527,"endTime":11.177,"body":"I'm your host, Ben Lloyd Pearson."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":11.773,"endTime":13.333,"body":"And I'm"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":11.773,"endTime":13.333,"body":"your host, Andrew Ziegler."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":13.583,"endTime":17.483,"body":"In today's news, we're talking about why"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":13.583,"endTime":17.483,"body":"startups are leaving big corporations"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":17.503,"endTime":21.635,"body":"in the dust when it comes to AI,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":17.503,"endTime":21.635,"body":"why building a simple calculator app"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":21.635,"endTime":25.365,"body":"is actually a complex puzzle, and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":21.635,"endTime":25.365,"body":"what to do now that AI has made your"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":25.365,"endTime":27.595,"body":"whiteboard interviews completely useless."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":28.219,"endTime":29.689,"body":"Ben, what do you want to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":28.219,"endTime":29.689,"body":"talk about first today?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":30.258,"endTime":33.238,"body":"Well, I feel like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":30.258,"endTime":33.238,"body":"since everything seems to be about AI"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":33.238,"endTime":36.888,"body":"anymore, maybe we just start with the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":33.238,"endTime":36.888,"body":"one story that's not AI this week."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":37.264,"endTime":39.004,"body":"Oh, I love"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":37.264,"endTime":39.004,"body":"the calculator story."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":39.394,"endTime":42.564,"body":"So this calculator story that we're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":39.394,"endTime":42.564,"body":"going to include in the roundup"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":42.894,"endTime":46.824,"body":"is a deep dive into something that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":42.894,"endTime":46.824,"body":"we all take for granted every day."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":47.074,"endTime":49.704,"body":"You know, we all open up a computer"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":47.074,"endTime":49.704,"body":"or our phone and do a simple"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":49.854,"endTime":51.394,"body":"calculation on the calculator app."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":51.404,"endTime":53.534,"body":"But did you know that under the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":51.404,"endTime":53.534,"body":"hood, this is actually a lot more"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":53.534,"endTime":54.824,"body":"complex than you would have thought?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":55.134,"endTime":59.334,"body":"And this is because of how we represent"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":55.134,"endTime":59.334,"body":"numbers in computers, in the abstract"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":59.334,"endTime":60.694,"body":"ways in which we have to do so."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":60.974,"endTime":63.499,"body":"And then when you start"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":60.974,"endTime":63.499,"body":"introducing calculations, You start"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":63.509,"endTime":65.679,"body":"sacrificing accuracy for precision."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":66.329,"endTime":69.199,"body":"And in this article, it's a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":66.329,"endTime":69.199,"body":"really interesting deep dive."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":69.229,"endTime":74.199,"body":"I will say I'm not the biggest math nerd"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":69.229,"endTime":74.199,"body":"in the world, so I can't do it justice."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":74.209,"endTime":77.029,"body":"But for those that are, I know"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":74.209,"endTime":77.029,"body":"they'll find this a fun ride behind"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":77.029,"endTime":80.629,"body":"the engineering journey and the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":77.029,"endTime":80.629,"body":"complexity of a calculator app."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":81.598,"endTime":84.408,"body":"Yeah, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":81.598,"endTime":84.408,"body":"this is, I wanted to include this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":84.408,"endTime":88.708,"body":"story because it is just a fun look"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":84.408,"endTime":88.708,"body":"at something that, like you said, we"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":88.708,"endTime":90.338,"body":"take, we all take this for granted."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":90.418,"endTime":94.828,"body":"In fact, you know, one of the biggest"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":90.418,"endTime":94.828,"body":"mistakes that my teachers taught me in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":94.898,"endTime":98.008,"body":"high school and elementary was that I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":94.898,"endTime":98.008,"body":"wasn't always going to have a calculator"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":98.058,"endTime":99.778,"body":"in my pocket, so I have to learn math."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":100.263,"endTime":103.463,"body":"But, it turns out for my reality"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":100.263,"endTime":103.463,"body":"that the opposite was true."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":103.463,"endTime":106.473,"body":"I do always have a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":103.463,"endTime":106.473,"body":"calculator in my pocket."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":106.513,"endTime":109.733,"body":"And actually the entire reason I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":106.513,"endTime":109.733,"body":"got into software development was"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":109.733,"endTime":111.573,"body":"because I hate, how much I hate math."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":111.583,"endTime":116.103,"body":"So, I'm really glad that people"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":111.583,"endTime":116.103,"body":"like this exist because it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":116.103,"endTime":117.598,"body":"enables people like me to learn."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":117.898,"endTime":121.258,"body":"you know, I think my distaste for"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":117.898,"endTime":121.258,"body":"math really took off when I learned"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":121.258,"endTime":122.728,"body":"about the quadratic equation."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":122.768,"endTime":126.638,"body":"And I literally learned how to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":122.768,"endTime":126.638,"body":"write software on my calculator"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":126.638,"endTime":128.188,"body":"that did my homework for me."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":128.558,"endTime":132.518,"body":"And, you know, technically teachers"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":128.558,"endTime":132.518,"body":"might call that cheating, but it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":132.518,"endTime":134.438,"body":"actually sparked a whole interest in me."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":134.558,"endTime":136.348,"body":"you know, I would learn the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":134.558,"endTime":136.348,"body":"formulas enough to write an"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":136.348,"endTime":138.178,"body":"application that solved it for me."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":138.669,"endTime":142.429,"body":"But yeah, just to say, like,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":138.669,"endTime":142.429,"body":"I don't understand it either."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":143.029,"endTime":145.689,"body":"I'm really glad that there are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":143.029,"endTime":145.689,"body":"people in this world who can."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":146.019,"endTime":149.259,"body":"And if you're someone who is, like,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":146.019,"endTime":149.259,"body":"really geeky about math, it is a pretty"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":149.259,"endTime":154.069,"body":"fascinating breakdown on how this, like,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":149.259,"endTime":154.069,"body":"very standard technology works today."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":154.825,"endTime":157.718,"body":"And another thing as well,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":154.825,"endTime":157.718,"body":"on this one that was interesting to me"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":157.718,"endTime":162.208,"body":"is how when you solve a problem like a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":157.718,"endTime":162.208,"body":"calculator app, you know, you might be"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":162.208,"endTime":166.573,"body":"able to solve 99 percent of it really,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":162.208,"endTime":166.573,"body":"really Easily, but getting that last 1"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":166.573,"endTime":170.153,"body":"percent so that it's perfect and putting"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":166.573,"endTime":170.153,"body":"in that blood, sweat and tears to make"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":170.153,"endTime":172.833,"body":"something foundational works incredible."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":172.903,"endTime":174.623,"body":"That's what great technology is all about."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":175.648,"endTime":179.058,"body":"Yeah, so I want to talk"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":175.648,"endTime":179.058,"body":"about one of the stories that I read this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":179.058,"endTime":183.968,"body":"week, and that's about how there's this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":179.058,"endTime":183.968,"body":"like two tier AI economy that's emerging"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":183.968,"endTime":185.808,"body":"between startups and corporations."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":186.158,"endTime":189.638,"body":"So large organizations really kind"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":186.158,"endTime":189.638,"body":"of appear to be falling behind"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":189.638,"endTime":191.608,"body":"startups in terms of AI adoption."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":192.116,"endTime":195.696,"body":"startups move very quickly,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":192.116,"endTime":195.696,"body":"they're able to innovate rapidly,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":195.696,"endTime":197.976,"body":"they try new things frequently."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":198.353,"endTime":201.493,"body":"But, you know, big corporations,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":198.353,"endTime":201.493,"body":"conversely, have a tendency"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":201.493,"endTime":203.193,"body":"to get stuck in like red tape."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":203.596,"endTime":207.476,"body":"and they may have money and resources,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":203.596,"endTime":207.476,"body":"but pouring money and resources"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":207.476,"endTime":212.426,"body":"into this AI challenge isn't really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":207.476,"endTime":212.426,"body":"what is solving the challenges."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":212.53,"endTime":216.14,"body":"you know, startups are experimenting"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":212.53,"endTime":216.14,"body":"really fast with these."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":216.435,"endTime":218.375,"body":"and I think they're able to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":216.435,"endTime":218.375,"body":"do it a lot more efficiently."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":218.375,"endTime":222.755,"body":"So you're seeing AI adoption take"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":218.375,"endTime":222.755,"body":"off within startups, but lag behind"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":222.755,"endTime":225.365,"body":"quite a bit in larger corporations."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":225.593,"endTime":227.193,"body":"we work for a small company."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":227.253,"endTime":233.123,"body":"we're already using, agentic workflows,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":227.253,"endTime":233.123,"body":"with AI to, optimize some of the stuff we"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":233.123,"endTime":235.633,"body":"do for the show, for polling and research."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":235.993,"endTime":239.583,"body":"we're using, this new workflow we"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":235.993,"endTime":239.583,"body":"just built to collect research for"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":239.593,"endTime":243.213,"body":"newsletter articles that will be coming"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":239.593,"endTime":243.213,"body":"out over the next months and weeks."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":243.713,"endTime":245.433,"body":"This is true from our perspective."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":245.483,"endTime":249.753,"body":"we work at a startup and we are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":245.483,"endTime":249.753,"body":"very rapidly innovating with AI."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":250.687,"endTime":253.657,"body":"Indeed, and it's about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":250.687,"endTime":253.657,"body":"being able to iterate very quickly."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":253.979,"endTime":256.979,"body":"Sometimes if you're in a larger"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":253.979,"endTime":256.979,"body":"organization, your cycles are just"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":256.979,"endTime":260.609,"body":"so much longer naturally that can"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":256.979,"endTime":260.609,"body":"be hard to get the momentum needed."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":260.879,"endTime":263.739,"body":"to build something that's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":260.879,"endTime":263.739,"body":"changing so quickly, like AI."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":264.109,"endTime":266.979,"body":"And I'm excited for what these"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":264.109,"endTime":266.979,"body":"kinds of things will unlock for us"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":267.229,"endTime":268.859,"body":"to help us work more efficiently."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":269.169,"endTime":273.679,"body":"I also think it calls out the, real"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":269.169,"endTime":273.679,"body":"root of where the AI innovation comes"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":273.679,"endTime":277.669,"body":"from, which is, Scrappy teams making"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":273.679,"endTime":277.669,"body":"resourceful decisions with what's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":277.669,"endTime":279.619,"body":"available to them in the time they have."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":279.909,"endTime":283.829,"body":"And I think it's going to cause us"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":279.909,"endTime":283.829,"body":"to see a lot more diversity in the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":283.879,"endTime":288.349,"body":"kinds of problems that get solved with"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":283.879,"endTime":288.349,"body":"technology by startups, because they"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":288.349,"endTime":292.009,"body":"have the ability to move really fast"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":288.349,"endTime":292.009,"body":"within regions and in industries that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":292.009,"endTime":296.269,"body":"maybe are traditionally, managed by"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":292.009,"endTime":296.269,"body":"those large traditional enterprises"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":296.269,"endTime":297.749,"body":"and that can't move as quickly."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":298.703,"endTime":298.973,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":298.973,"endTime":302.313,"body":"This speaking of something that we're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":298.973,"endTime":302.313,"body":"probably going to have to iterate on"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":302.323,"endTime":305.543,"body":"very soon, the tech interview process."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":305.623,"endTime":305.913,"body":"Tell me"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":305.913,"endTime":308.213,"body":"what you read about this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":305.913,"endTime":308.213,"body":"week on that, Andrew."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":308.839,"endTime":311.929,"body":"Yeah, I read this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":308.839,"endTime":311.929,"body":"amazing article from Kane Naraway"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":311.929,"endTime":316.419,"body":"about how the AI has killed the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":311.929,"endTime":316.419,"body":"interview process for tech folk."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":316.809,"endTime":321.019,"body":"And it really just kind of shines a light"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":316.809,"endTime":321.019,"body":"on everything that we already understand"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":321.019,"endTime":326.809,"body":"and know about the reality of applying and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":321.019,"endTime":326.809,"body":"interviewing for jobs in an AI world now."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":327.116,"endTime":331.456,"body":"The idea that one, you're often tested"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":327.116,"endTime":331.456,"body":"on things that maybe are expected"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":331.456,"endTime":335.716,"body":"to be used alongside AI, and maybe"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":331.456,"endTime":335.716,"body":"the interviews are not testing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":335.941,"endTime":338.381,"body":"You know, your AI capabilities,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":335.941,"endTime":338.381,"body":"which is what you'd actually"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":338.381,"endTime":339.731,"body":"be using on the job now."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":340.031,"endTime":344.051,"body":"But on the inverse of that, there are"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":340.031,"endTime":344.051,"body":"so many opportunities and ways for AI"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":344.061,"endTime":347.924,"body":"to get between you and the interview,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":344.061,"endTime":347.924,"body":"inject its knowledge into the process."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":347.924,"endTime":351.534,"body":"So if someone's interviewing you, are"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":347.924,"endTime":351.534,"body":"they really interviewing your skills"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":351.544,"endTime":352.854,"body":"or are they interviewing Claude's?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":353.104,"endTime":356.074,"body":"You know, that becomes the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":353.104,"endTime":356.074,"body":"question of the article."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":356.694,"endTime":361.339,"body":"And it's really shining a light on how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":356.694,"endTime":361.339,"body":"Rehiring practices, they need to change."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":361.519,"endTime":363.479,"body":"Just like how the day to day work of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":363.479,"endTime":368.299,"body":"developers is evolving to be more"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":363.479,"endTime":368.299,"body":"like a manager of AI, to be in charge"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":368.299,"endTime":371.809,"body":"of these workflows and processes, to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":368.299,"endTime":371.809,"body":"maybe not be as writing as much code,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":371.809,"endTime":376.329,"body":"but definitely be overseeing a large"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":371.809,"endTime":376.329,"body":"technical, project or architecture."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":376.559,"endTime":380.319,"body":"Those are the things that we should"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":376.559,"endTime":380.319,"body":"be testing and testing them alongside"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":380.319,"endTime":382.416,"body":"their ability to use, AI tools."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":382.785,"endTime":385.325,"body":"Yeah, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":382.785,"endTime":385.325,"body":"I feel like at a minimum, everyone"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":385.325,"endTime":390.275,"body":"should be incorporating AI questions"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":385.325,"endTime":390.275,"body":"into their interview process to figure"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":390.275,"endTime":392.145,"body":"out how candidates are using it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":392.145,"endTime":395.055,"body":"Like, have they experimented"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":392.145,"endTime":395.055,"body":"in positive ways with it?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":395.065,"endTime":396.195,"body":"Have they seen success?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":396.525,"endTime":402.185,"body":"I think in the future, like really every"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":396.525,"endTime":402.185,"body":"engineer needs to become product oriented."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":402.475,"endTime":404.695,"body":"And I think the sooner you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":402.475,"endTime":404.695,"body":"can do that, the better."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":405.44,"endTime":409.01,"body":"And what I mean by that is it's not"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":405.44,"endTime":409.01,"body":"enough to just understand code and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":409.01,"endTime":411.52,"body":"to be able to generate code anymore."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":411.56,"endTime":415.12,"body":"You need to understand how or"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":411.56,"endTime":415.12,"body":"have an awareness of how that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":415.12,"endTime":417.25,"body":"code impacts the end users."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":417.25,"endTime":422.03,"body":"So even if you're making simple"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":417.25,"endTime":422.03,"body":"database updates, you should know how"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":422.03,"endTime":426.28,"body":"that database is used in real world"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":422.03,"endTime":426.28,"body":"conditions so that you're optimizing it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":426.28,"endTime":428.55,"body":"for how it's actually going to be used."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":429.05,"endTime":432.22,"body":"But I think beyond that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":429.05,"endTime":432.22,"body":"some things that maybe organizations"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":432.23,"endTime":435.86,"body":"should start thinking about today are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":432.23,"endTime":435.86,"body":"like how to lean into the human side"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":435.94,"endTime":437.74,"body":"of the experience, you know, if you can"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":437.83,"endTime":442.17,"body":"like in person interviews may actually"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":437.83,"endTime":442.17,"body":"make a lot of sense now to bring back."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":442.67,"endTime":447.04,"body":"but even if you can't, I mean, make"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":442.67,"endTime":447.04,"body":"AI a part of the interview process."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":447.04,"endTime":451.55,"body":"Like if you're going to do technical,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":447.04,"endTime":451.55,"body":"challenges or technical, interviews,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":451.96,"endTime":453.88,"body":"you should make AI a part of that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":453.89,"endTime":455.95,"body":"Like how much, how can they use AI?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":456.23,"endTime":459.97,"body":"How can they leverage it to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":456.23,"endTime":459.97,"body":"solve higher order challenges?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":460.056,"endTime":463.916,"body":"you don't need to just Test them on"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":460.056,"endTime":463.916,"body":"their ability to produce code anymore."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":464.746,"endTime":465.186,"body":"But it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":465.186,"endTime":468.916,"body":"also makes me wonder,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":465.186,"endTime":468.916,"body":"like, is LeetCode dead?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":468.916,"endTime":475.616,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":475.757,"endTime":478.607,"body":"the new, the leet code"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":475.757,"endTime":478.607,"body":"of tomorrow will probably be more about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":478.607,"endTime":482.967,"body":"testing your ability to prompt and use"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":478.607,"endTime":482.967,"body":"AI tools to solve the kinds of problems"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":482.967,"endTime":484.307,"body":"that were originally on leet code."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":484.777,"endTime":488.287,"body":"But ultimately, what leet code"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":484.777,"endTime":488.287,"body":"is testing isn't maybe something"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":488.287,"endTime":488.817,"body":"that needs to get tested."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":488.817,"endTime":495.764,"body":"Um, I think it really harkens back to,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":488.817,"endTime":495.764,"body":"what's the goal of asking those technical"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":495.764,"endTime":497.944,"body":"questions in an interview of a candidate?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":497.954,"endTime":499.534,"body":"It's because you want to see their skills."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":499.534,"endTime":502.994,"body":"Well, the skills you want to see now"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":499.534,"endTime":502.994,"body":"are their ability to work with the tools"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":502.994,"endTime":506.944,"body":"that are going to produce that kind of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":502.994,"endTime":506.944,"body":"content, as well as be able to understand"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":507.004,"endTime":508.864,"body":"the fundamentals behind why it's working."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":509.064,"endTime":511.934,"body":"So really, it's about going back"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":509.064,"endTime":511.934,"body":"to the reason that we do interviews"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":511.934,"endTime":514.774,"body":"and, focus on the human elements"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":511.934,"endTime":514.774,"body":"that you can actually understand."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":515.443,"endTime":517.523,"body":"this article,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":515.443,"endTime":517.523,"body":"like specifically called out Max"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":517.523,"endTime":519.453,"body":"Howell, who's the creator of Homebrew."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":519.763,"endTime":523.593,"body":"Which if you're a developer who works"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":519.763,"endTime":523.593,"body":"on Mac, there's like a 90 plus percent"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":523.593,"endTime":528.193,"body":"chance that you're using something that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":523.593,"endTime":528.193,"body":"this guy created and how, you know, he"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":528.193,"endTime":531.683,"body":"made it, he probably can't even get hired"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":528.193,"endTime":531.683,"body":"at Google because, you know, even though"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":531.913,"endTime":535.413,"body":"most of their company probably uses"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":531.913,"endTime":535.413,"body":"the stuff he built, if he can't solve"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":535.423,"endTime":537.693,"body":"leak code, he may not get in the door."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":537.693,"endTime":540.913,"body":"So, you know, I think in the future,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":537.693,"endTime":540.913,"body":"people like Max Howell are the ones"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":540.913,"endTime":543.103,"body":"that are really going to Excel,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":543.931,"endTime":544.701,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":545.191,"endTime":547.531,"body":"this kind of actually touches"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":545.191,"endTime":547.531,"body":"on something very similar that's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":547.531,"endTime":550.831,"body":"evolving and changing within the tech"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":547.531,"endTime":550.831,"body":"industry right now, especially for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":551.021,"endTime":553.231,"body":"entry level software, developers."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":553.581,"endTime":556.181,"body":"When they're coming on the scene, it's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":553.581,"endTime":556.181,"body":"a lot of times the way that they've"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":556.181,"endTime":559.384,"body":"acquired their knowledge or that they"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":556.181,"endTime":559.384,"body":"start to learn on the job is, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":559.384,"endTime":560.941,"body":"know, by interfacing with people."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":561.106,"endTime":564.666,"body":"Technologies like AI, they're able"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":561.106,"endTime":564.666,"body":"to get fast answers based upon"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":564.666,"endTime":566.106,"body":"the context they're working on."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":566.386,"endTime":570.656,"body":"But when you compare that to the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":566.386,"endTime":570.656,"body":"last decade or two, if you've become"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":570.656,"endTime":574.326,"body":"a developer, you probably spent a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":570.656,"endTime":574.326,"body":"fair amount of time on Stack Overflow"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":574.366,"endTime":578.206,"body":"trying to find an obscure answer"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":574.366,"endTime":578.206,"body":"to your very obscure question."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":578.596,"endTime":582.846,"body":"But as we know, now you can ask those"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":578.596,"endTime":582.846,"body":"kinds GPT even, and get a response."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":582.856,"endTime":585.466,"body":"So, there was an article"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":582.856,"endTime":585.466,"body":"this week about how."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":585.746,"endTime":589.366,"body":"You know, the lack of the struggle"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":585.746,"endTime":589.366,"body":"that you might go through as an"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":589.376,"endTime":593.176,"body":"individual developer to learn those"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":589.376,"endTime":593.176,"body":"things and go on Stack Overflow and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":593.176,"endTime":596.376,"body":"find the 30 questions and answers"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":593.176,"endTime":596.376,"body":"that don't answer your question."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":596.386,"endTime":599.806,"body":"Like, that's the struggle of understanding"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":596.386,"endTime":599.806,"body":"the fundamentals of what you're writing."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":600.136,"endTime":601.836,"body":"Yeah, this is,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":600.136,"endTime":601.836,"body":"I think you're referencing this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":601.836,"endTime":605.716,"body":"article that I brought up in one of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":601.836,"endTime":605.716,"body":"our channels about, how new junior"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":605.716,"endTime":610.146,"body":"developers appeared to possibly"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":605.716,"endTime":610.146,"body":"actually be losing the ability to code."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":610.212,"endTime":613.832,"body":"and this kind of made me think like,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":610.212,"endTime":613.832,"body":"Andrew, have you ever met a developer"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":613.852,"endTime":616.352,"body":"that doesn't know what Stack Overflow is?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":616.918,"endTime":618.028,"body":"No, that's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":618.338,"endTime":621.678,"body":"kind of what I'm thinking of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":618.338,"endTime":621.678,"body":"immediately is it's so ubiquitous."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":621.802,"endTime":625.502,"body":"Yeah, I mean, you can"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":621.802,"endTime":625.502,"body":"bring up something that vibes in like the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":625.502,"endTime":629.862,"body":"stack overflow nature and any developer"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":625.502,"endTime":629.862,"body":"knows what that experience is like, where"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":630.242,"endTime":633.502,"body":"you have loads of questions that are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":630.242,"endTime":633.502,"body":"only tangentially related and a bunch"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":633.502,"endTime":638.192,"body":"of surly people who are providing very"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":633.502,"endTime":638.192,"body":"pointed and sometimes aggressive answers."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":638.698,"endTime":639.118,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":640.052,"endTime":643.902,"body":"But, I mean, that's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":640.052,"endTime":643.902,"body":"changing, you know, like, sort of grew"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":643.902,"endTime":648.022,"body":"up, for lack of a better phrase, in an"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":643.902,"endTime":648.022,"body":"environment where everyone was cutting"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":648.022,"endTime":651.822,"body":"their teeth on Stack Overflow, but"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":648.022,"endTime":651.822,"body":"now, like, when a developer encounters"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":651.822,"endTime":655.662,"body":"a problem, they can just simply"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":651.822,"endTime":655.662,"body":"paste that error into one of the many"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":655.662,"endTime":659.672,"body":"generative AI tools that are on the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":655.662,"endTime":659.672,"body":"market and instantly get an answer"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":659.672,"endTime":662.352,"body":"that is directly relevant to them."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":662.462,"endTime":665.652,"body":"so I'm kind of like, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":662.462,"endTime":665.652,"body":"forget calculators in your pocket."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":666.367,"endTime":669.427,"body":"Now you've got an encyclopedia in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":666.367,"endTime":669.427,"body":"your pocket, and not only that, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":669.427,"endTime":670.847,"body":"can have a conversation with it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":670.857,"endTime":674.027,"body":"Like, that's, it completely"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":670.857,"endTime":674.027,"body":"changes, like, the paradigm of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":674.027,"endTime":677.381,"body":"how we solve problems, Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":677.448,"endTime":677.958,"body":"point."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":678.018,"endTime":681.758,"body":"I think that's the most powerful"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":678.018,"endTime":681.758,"body":"experience that I have with AI so"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":681.758,"endTime":685.728,"body":"far, is not just asking the question"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":681.758,"endTime":685.728,"body":"and getting the answer, but then"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":685.728,"endTime":689.978,"body":"continuing in a dialogue to ask"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":685.728,"endTime":689.978,"body":"other questions, to do a follow up."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":689.998,"endTime":694.428,"body":"This is why perplexity is really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":689.998,"endTime":694.428,"body":"Successful is because when you go to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":694.428,"endTime":698.468,"body":"search, you know, you're not trying to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":694.428,"endTime":698.468,"body":"magically pull up a list of things, you're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":698.468,"endTime":700.278,"body":"trying to actually find your answer."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":700.278,"endTime":703.978,"body":"So when you start by asking your"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":700.278,"endTime":703.978,"body":"question, and you're having a dialogue,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":703.978,"endTime":707.508,"body":"it's a really powerful experience"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":703.978,"endTime":707.508,"body":"that becomes deeply personalized,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":707.788,"endTime":711.078,"body":"just like how every conversation or"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":707.788,"endTime":711.078,"body":"even this one right now we're having"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":711.218,"endTime":714.228,"body":"it, you know, it's personalized,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":711.218,"endTime":714.228,"body":"we're having our own discussion."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":714.868,"endTime":717.178,"body":"When you are able to kind of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":714.868,"endTime":717.178,"body":"introduce knowledge in that way,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":717.178,"endTime":718.488,"body":"that's how we learn as people."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":718.908,"endTime":722.378,"body":"So it's a really powerful way to kind"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":718.908,"endTime":722.378,"body":"of Build that knowledge over time,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":722.728,"endTime":728.032,"body":"and really what it calls out to me"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":722.728,"endTime":728.032,"body":"is if you are building things with AI"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":728.032,"endTime":732.592,"body":"and you are new to technology maybe,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":728.032,"endTime":732.592,"body":"and you're exploring how to implement"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":732.602,"endTime":736.377,"body":"things is to also balance those"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":732.602,"endTime":736.377,"body":"inquisitive moments on different levels."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":736.507,"endTime":740.707,"body":"ChatGPT with going and doing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":736.507,"endTime":740.707,"body":"investigations of other people's, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":740.707,"endTime":742.787,"body":"know, sharings and buildings online."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":743.077,"endTime":746.767,"body":"I think that's a really great opportunity"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":743.077,"endTime":746.767,"body":"to kind of, have that communal developer"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":746.767,"endTime":751.007,"body":"experience, share knowledge, and it'll"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":746.767,"endTime":751.007,"body":"get us all out of our silos as well."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":751.217,"endTime":754.657,"body":"And you're always going to learn something"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":751.217,"endTime":754.657,"body":"if you can saddle up to a, you know, a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":754.667,"endTime":759.297,"body":"mentor developer who's able to kind of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":754.667,"endTime":759.297,"body":"shine a light on why those struggles are"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":759.297,"endTime":761.237,"body":"so important to building that knowledge."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":762.841,"endTime":765.531,"body":"it makes me,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":762.841,"endTime":765.531,"body":"like, wonder, like, are, are we"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":765.531,"endTime":768.441,"body":"sacrificing knowledge gain for speed?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":768.551,"endTime":770.331,"body":"So AI lets you move faster."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":770.351,"endTime":775.206,"body":"Are we sacrificing the ability to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":770.351,"endTime":775.206,"body":"learn So yeah, so the author of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":775.206,"endTime":778.146,"body":"this article that I mentioned does"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":775.206,"endTime":778.146,"body":"have some great recommendations."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":778.156,"endTime":781.806,"body":"So among other things, it's, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":778.156,"endTime":781.806,"body":"know, bring a learning mindset,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":781.806,"endTime":783.396,"body":"like you should interrogate your AI."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":783.576,"endTime":787.106,"body":"You shouldn't just accept answers"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":783.576,"endTime":787.106,"body":"that it gives you at face value."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":787.536,"endTime":790.626,"body":"but sort of touching on, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":787.536,"endTime":790.626,"body":"the more humanistic aspects of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":790.656,"endTime":792.336,"body":"our previous story on interviews."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":792.906,"endTime":797.656,"body":"you know, there's a lot of human, Places"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":792.906,"endTime":797.656,"body":"or places for human discussion out there"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":797.656,"endTime":802.836,"body":"that aren't overwhelmed by bots and GPT"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":797.656,"endTime":802.836,"body":"generated stuff You know, there's lots of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":802.836,"endTime":807.696,"body":"communities out on like discord and reddit"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":802.836,"endTime":807.696,"body":"so I think affinity groups are becoming"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":807.746,"endTime":809.326,"body":"like more important than ever like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":809.836,"endTime":814.152,"body":"we can all learn from GPTs, but there's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":809.836,"endTime":814.152,"body":"still a lot of value in learning from"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":814.152,"endTime":819.222,"body":"other humans as well but then there's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":814.152,"endTime":819.222,"body":"also some recommendations like bring"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":819.232,"endTime":823.627,"body":"more conversation into code reviews, so"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":819.232,"endTime":823.627,"body":"Don't focus as much on whether or not the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":823.627,"endTime":828.467,"body":"code works, but more on why the approach"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":823.627,"endTime":828.467,"body":"to that was taken in the first place."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":828.927,"endTime":831.117,"body":"and then, you know, just occasionally"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":828.927,"endTime":831.117,"body":"build things from scratch."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":831.117,"endTime":833.397,"body":"Like it's, it's fun to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":831.117,"endTime":833.397,"body":"make stuff from scratch."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":833.407,"endTime":836.477,"body":"I love to cook, you know, a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":833.407,"endTime":836.477,"body":"times I buy stuff from the store."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":836.872,"endTime":839.992,"body":"But sometimes it's better to just do"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":836.872,"endTime":839.992,"body":"it yourself because you learn something"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":839.992,"endTime":843.522,"body":"along the way and you take that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":839.992,"endTime":843.522,"body":"knowledge with you into the future."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":843.522,"endTime":845.322,"body":"So, you know, it's not all bleak."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":845.322,"endTime":849.702,"body":"It's not like we're gonna suddenly"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":845.322,"endTime":849.702,"body":"forget how to code, but, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":849.702,"endTime":853.982,"body":"think we do have to take a different"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":849.702,"endTime":853.982,"body":"approach to learning in this environment."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":854.343,"endTime":855.533,"body":"Yeah, I don't"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":854.343,"endTime":855.533,"body":"think it's bleak at all."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":855.533,"endTime":859.593,"body":"It's just more like a, it's a new level"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":855.533,"endTime":859.593,"body":"of abstraction that will just require"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":859.593,"endTime":860.463,"body":"new skills."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":860.912,"endTime":863.552,"body":"Yeah, So, Andrew,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":860.912,"endTime":863.552,"body":"tell me about our guest today."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":864.023,"endTime":866.423,"body":"after the break,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":864.023,"endTime":866.423,"body":"we're diving into some amazing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":866.433,"endTime":870.303,"body":"insights from a recent event that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":866.433,"endTime":870.303,"body":"Dev Interrupted had with LinearB."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":870.313,"endTime":874.093,"body":"This is in San Francisco and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":870.313,"endTime":874.093,"body":"covering our 2025 Software"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":874.093,"endTime":875.583,"body":"Engineering Benchmarks Report."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":876.023,"endTime":879.188,"body":"And so what we're going to be listening"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":876.023,"endTime":879.188,"body":"to is What happens when you get"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":879.188,"endTime":884.528,"body":"Rob Zuber, the CTO of CircleCI, and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":879.188,"endTime":884.528,"body":"Tara Hernandez, the VP of Developer"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":884.528,"endTime":890.488,"body":"Productivity at MongoDB, together in a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":884.528,"endTime":890.488,"body":"renovated church with a live audience and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":890.928,"endTime":894.852,"body":"a bunch of technical experts"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":890.928,"endTime":894.852,"body":"and Well, you get magic, So"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":894.852,"endTime":896.452,"body":"stick around, after the break."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":896.462,"endTime":899.082,"body":"We're gonna have a round table"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":896.462,"endTime":899.082,"body":"discussion with these industry leaders"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":899.242,"endTime":901.522,"body":"on dev productivity and experience."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":905.57,"endTime":906.94,"body":"Let's talk"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":905.57,"endTime":906.94,"body":"about something that's been on"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":906.99,"endTime":908.75,"body":"every engineering leader's mind."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":908.75,"endTime":912.35,"body":"How do you measure success"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":908.75,"endTime":912.35,"body":"beyond just Dora metrics?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":913.12,"endTime":917.45,"body":"That's exactly what LinearB tackles"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":913.12,"endTime":917.45,"body":"in their latest guide on how top teams"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":917.45,"endTime":919.28,"body":"track developer access beyond Dora."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":919.884,"endTime":924.904,"body":"you're relying on deployment frequency and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":919.884,"endTime":924.904,"body":"lead time or cycle time, you're missing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":924.914,"endTime":928.484,"body":"the full picture of how engineering"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":924.914,"endTime":928.484,"body":"actually drives business impact."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":928.954,"endTime":931.674,"body":"This guide breaks down real"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":928.954,"endTime":931.674,"body":"world metrics that matter."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":931.824,"endTime":935.814,"body":"Stuff like developer satisfaction,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":931.824,"endTime":935.814,"body":"cognitive load, and engineering"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":935.834,"endTime":937.954,"body":"impact beyond just shipping fast."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":938.664,"endTime":941.694,"body":"Because what's the point of going fast"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":938.664,"endTime":941.694,"body":"if you can't see where you're going?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":942.194,"endTime":946.034,"body":"If you're serious about improving"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":942.194,"endTime":946.034,"body":"your team, go grab your free copy now."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":946.094,"endTime":947.404,"body":"The link's in the show notes."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":949.54,"endTime":953.11,"body":"We're going to get"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":949.54,"endTime":953.11,"body":"started with our first session"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":953.34,"endTime":959.64,"body":"today titled software engineering"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":953.34,"endTime":959.64,"body":"benchmarks and insights round table."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":960.144,"endTime":964.374,"body":"Now we have a wonderful"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":960.144,"endTime":964.374,"body":"agenda for this session."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":964.424,"endTime":968.244,"body":"We're going to look at a bunch of"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":964.424,"endTime":968.244,"body":"different insights, five of them."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":968.714,"endTime":973.394,"body":"But before we get there, I"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":968.714,"endTime":973.394,"body":"want to introduce our amazing."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":973.999,"endTime":978.009,"body":"Roundtable guests, starting"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":973.999,"endTime":978.009,"body":"with Tara Hernandez, VP of"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":978.399,"endTime":980.959,"body":"Dev Productivity at MongoDB."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":981.429,"endTime":982.169,"body":"Welcome, Tara."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":982.639,"endTime":983.139,"body":"Hello."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":983.813,"endTime":989.473,"body":"And of course, we also have"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":983.813,"endTime":989.473,"body":"Rob Zuber, CTO of CircleCI."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":990.113,"endTime":990.653,"body":"Welcome, Rob."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":991.346,"endTime":992.196,"body":"Hello, everybody."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":992.896,"endTime":994.216,"body":"It's really weird being up here."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":994.256,"endTime":996.266,"body":"It's just like a bunch of"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":994.256,"endTime":996.266,"body":"bright lights in my face."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":996.706,"endTime":999.376,"body":"And all I can see is"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":996.706,"endTime":999.376,"body":"glowing Linear B things."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":999.456,"endTime":1000.346,"body":"But they're very cool."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1000.526,"endTime":1002.216,"body":"And a"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1000.526,"endTime":1002.216,"body":"really big pipe organ."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1002.216,"endTime":1002.296,"body":"Welcome, everyone."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1003.346,"endTime":1004.426,"body":"Yeah, can we play the organ?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1005.716,"endTime":1010.096,"body":"You know what I told them is make"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1005.716,"endTime":1010.096,"body":"this look like a nineties roller rink."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1010.326,"endTime":1012.106,"body":"And I think they executed it really well."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1012.106,"endTime":1016.356,"body":"Maybe we can play the organ, but,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1012.106,"endTime":1016.356,"body":"uh, amazing to have you both here."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1017.076,"endTime":1017.746,"body":"Free bird."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1022.719,"endTime":1026.419,"body":"So for today's agenda,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1022.719,"endTime":1026.419,"body":"we're going to look at five insights."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1026.439,"endTime":1030.949,"body":"We're going to look at the PR"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1026.439,"endTime":1030.949,"body":"lifecycle, the PM hygiene, Dora metrics,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1031.269,"endTime":1033.589,"body":"code quality, and predictability."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1034.019,"endTime":1035.819,"body":"This is all coming from."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1036.308,"endTime":1040.124,"body":"The 2025, engineering report"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1036.308,"endTime":1040.124,"body":"that you should all have."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1040.664,"endTime":1044.774,"body":"And just a little bit of information"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1040.664,"endTime":1044.774,"body":"about the report before we get started."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1044.784,"endTime":1048.774,"body":"So on the left hand side,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1044.784,"endTime":1048.774,"body":"you'll see the population size."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1049.254,"endTime":1050.784,"body":"So we looked at about 6."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1050.784,"endTime":1055.674,"body":"1 million poll requests, over 3,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1050.784,"endTime":1055.674,"body":"000 organizations, 32 countries,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1055.684,"endTime":1058.294,"body":"you have a bunch of different"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1055.684,"endTime":1058.294,"body":"calculation types in there."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1058.359,"endTime":1063.529,"body":"P50, P75, new for this"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1058.359,"endTime":1063.529,"body":"year is P90 and average."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1064.189,"endTime":1067.709,"body":"This is the fourth"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1064.189,"endTime":1067.709,"body":"generation of the report."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1067.999,"endTime":1071.419,"body":"And this year we have seven"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1067.999,"endTime":1071.419,"body":"new metrics that we've added."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1072.219,"endTime":1076.029,"body":"The first two, approve"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1072.219,"endTime":1076.029,"body":"time and merge time."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1076.029,"endTime":1080.159,"body":"That's looking a little bit more at"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1076.029,"endTime":1080.159,"body":"developer experience, breaking down review"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1080.159,"endTime":1081.909,"body":"time, getting a little more granular."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1082.493,"endTime":1087.893,"body":"We added PR maturity, and then we"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1082.493,"endTime":1087.893,"body":"added a bunch of different ones here."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1087.933,"endTime":1091.923,"body":"Issues linked to parents, branches"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1087.933,"endTime":1091.923,"body":"linked to issues, in progress"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1091.923,"endTime":1095.863,"body":"issues with estimations, in progress"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1091.923,"endTime":1095.863,"body":"issues with assignees, these are"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1095.933,"endTime":1100.563,"body":"all what I consider predictability"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1095.933,"endTime":1100.563,"body":"or predictable delivery metrics."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1101.229,"endTime":1103.809,"body":"Let's start with PR maturity."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1104.159,"endTime":1108.529,"body":"So if we think about PR maturity, think"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1104.159,"endTime":1108.529,"body":"about putting up a pull request and maybe"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1108.529,"endTime":1114.739,"body":"it has a hundred lines of code of change"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1108.529,"endTime":1114.739,"body":"in that PR and what PR maturity looking"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1114.739,"endTime":1117.479,"body":"at is the ratio of the amount of changes."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1117.479,"endTime":1119.409,"body":"So let's say that you had 20 different."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1119.749,"endTime":1122.299,"body":"Lines that were changed"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1119.749,"endTime":1122.299,"body":"after the PR was open."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1122.299,"endTime":1125.545,"body":"You'd have a PR maturity, ratio of 80%."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1125.952,"endTime":1129.872,"body":"What are your thoughts on that new"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1125.952,"endTime":1129.872,"body":"metric that was added PR maturity?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1130.553,"endTime":1132.213,"body":"We might talk"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1130.553,"endTime":1132.213,"body":"about this for an hour."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1132.8,"endTime":1138.16,"body":"one of the things that I think"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1132.8,"endTime":1138.16,"body":"about metrics in general is that"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1138.16,"endTime":1141.44,"body":"there are a great way to understand."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1141.765,"endTime":1146.955,"body":"Where you should start looking, they're"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1141.765,"endTime":1146.955,"body":"not going to give you all the answers to"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1146.955,"endTime":1148.365,"body":"what's happening in your organization."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1148.365,"endTime":1149.785,"body":"They're going to say,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1148.365,"endTime":1149.785,"body":"Hey, that's interesting."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1150.145,"endTime":1151.795,"body":"Let's go ask a question about that."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1152.365,"endTime":1155.975,"body":"And what's really important"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1152.365,"endTime":1155.975,"body":"there is what you're looking for."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1155.975,"endTime":1159.145,"body":"When you ask those questions is"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1155.975,"endTime":1159.145,"body":"what is the surrounding context?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1159.145,"endTime":1161.775,"body":"Why do these numbers"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1159.145,"endTime":1161.775,"body":"look the way they look?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1161.775,"endTime":1165.635,"body":"And the thing that I love about this and"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1161.775,"endTime":1165.635,"body":"a few of these different metrics is you"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1165.635,"endTime":1168.245,"body":"could describe a fantastic organization."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1168.7,"endTime":1172.61,"body":"And a terrible organization that"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1168.7,"endTime":1172.61,"body":"has show the same numbers, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1172.62,"endTime":1178.41,"body":"So PR maturity, again, how much change is"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1172.62,"endTime":1178.41,"body":"there after someone puts up a PR, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1178.41,"endTime":1182.03,"body":"The fantastic organization,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1178.41,"endTime":1182.03,"body":"you have teams pairing on code."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1182.58,"endTime":1185.07,"body":"By the time the PR goes up,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1182.58,"endTime":1185.07,"body":"two people have looked at it."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1185.08,"endTime":1188.3,"body":"They've built it together and"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1185.08,"endTime":1188.3,"body":"someone goes, yep, let's put that in."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1188.66,"endTime":1189.34,"body":"No problem."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1189.51,"endTime":1192.51,"body":"You know, we've all agreed"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1189.51,"endTime":1192.51,"body":"that this is the right thing in"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1192.51,"endTime":1195.42,"body":"the less awesome organization."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1195.76,"endTime":1197.49,"body":"People are rubber stamping PRs."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1198.61,"endTime":1200.29,"body":"Nobody actually asks any questions."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1200.29,"endTime":1202.49,"body":"They just put them up and"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1200.29,"endTime":1202.49,"body":"they're like, yeah, go for it."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1202.49,"endTime":1204.18,"body":"You know, it is like,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1202.49,"endTime":1204.18,"body":"Hey, it looks interesting."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1204.18,"endTime":1204.54,"body":"I don't know."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1204.54,"endTime":1206.23,"body":"I'm not, I don't really"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1204.54,"endTime":1206.23,"body":"have time to read your PR."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1206.51,"endTime":1207.54,"body":"I got my own work to do."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1208.17,"endTime":1210.08,"body":"And like, I guess, you know,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1208.17,"endTime":1210.08,"body":"I'd always ask, which one of"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1210.08,"endTime":1210.96,"body":"those do you want to work in?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1211.56,"endTime":1211.87,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1211.9,"endTime":1216.8,"body":"So you can't just look at one of these"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1211.9,"endTime":1216.8,"body":"metrics and say, my company is elite."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1216.91,"endTime":1218.27,"body":"My company is terrible."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1218.6,"endTime":1221.38,"body":"You can say that tells me"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1218.6,"endTime":1221.38,"body":"something about what's happening."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1221.38,"endTime":1224.89,"body":"What else do I need to know"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1221.38,"endTime":1224.89,"body":"to sort of triangulate?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1225.46,"endTime":1227.17,"body":"What's really happening"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1225.46,"endTime":1227.17,"body":"in the organization?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1228.01,"endTime":1228.28,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1228.28,"endTime":1231.88,"body":"You know, I was at reinvent last week"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1228.28,"endTime":1231.88,"body":"'cause I think like half the living world,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1232.87,"endTime":1236.19,"body":"gosh, there was a lot of people in Vegas"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1232.87,"endTime":1236.19,"body":"and there was a talk about, collaborative"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1236.19,"endTime":1240.12,"body":"AI and this, this new concept that they,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1236.19,"endTime":1240.12,"body":"this the speaker was trying to hype up."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1240.12,"endTime":1242.61,"body":"and she said that really interesting,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1240.12,"endTime":1242.61,"body":"which was, you know, collaborative"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1242.61,"endTime":1246.48,"body":"AI is when you recognize that AI"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1242.61,"endTime":1246.48,"body":"has all of the data and knowledge"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1246.81,"endTime":1248.28,"body":"that the human has the context."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1248.31,"endTime":1250.12,"body":"And I'm like, yeah, okay."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1250.21,"endTime":1251.08,"body":"I, I buy that."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1251.08,"endTime":1253.81,"body":"But that's actually true"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1251.08,"endTime":1253.81,"body":"for just about anything."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1253.84,"endTime":1254.351,"body":"And I think it's."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1255.14,"endTime":1258.11,"body":"You know, certainly true for metrics,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1255.14,"endTime":1258.11,"body":"and then the example that I think I"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1258.11,"endTime":1262.2,"body":"gave before that we liked is when I was"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1258.11,"endTime":1262.2,"body":"at Google, I almost never made commits"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1262.57,"endTime":1266.43,"body":"I was a manager, you know, don't touch"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1262.57,"endTime":1266.43,"body":"the code it break something but there"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1266.43,"endTime":1270.17,"body":"was a cleanup that we did We did a code"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1266.43,"endTime":1270.17,"body":"refactoring It was like a million lines"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1270.17,"endTime":1272.98,"body":"of code that was in the wrong spot and"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1270.17,"endTime":1272.98,"body":"it was just sitting there And I'm like,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1272.98,"endTime":1277.3,"body":"I'm gonna go clean that up So I made"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1272.98,"endTime":1277.3,"body":"a PR that was a negative 900 million"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1277.3,"endTime":1283.38,"body":"lines of code I could assure you that"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1277.3,"endTime":1283.38,"body":"it was not reviewed thoroughly, but it"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1283.38,"endTime":1287.52,"body":"was the most exciting like Button press"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1283.38,"endTime":1287.52,"body":"I've ever made in my life into GitHub."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1287.86,"endTime":1290.4,"body":"And you know, what would that,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1287.86,"endTime":1290.4,"body":"you know, if, if without context,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1290.47,"endTime":1293.42,"body":"that would have been like, you"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1290.47,"endTime":1293.42,"body":"just deleted our, the entirety of"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1293.42,"endTime":1294.66,"body":"our intellectual property, right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1294.69,"endTime":1296.22,"body":"Like, or some other responsive thing."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1296.22,"endTime":1301.327,"body":"So I think that these metrics, PR"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1296.22,"endTime":1301.327,"body":"maturity being, I think it's a good one,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1301.757,"endTime":1305.087,"body":"but it's like a piece of your Lego kit."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1305.647,"endTime":1309.197,"body":"As an engineering leader for"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1305.647,"endTime":1309.197,"body":"what do you want to be true?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1309.197,"endTime":1310.457,"body":"And what do you want to value?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1311.177,"endTime":1311.527,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1311.807,"endTime":1314.327,"body":"And I would argue, like, I think"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1311.807,"endTime":1314.327,"body":"Rob has some good examples, but I"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1314.327,"endTime":1317.497,"body":"would argue like other variations"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1314.327,"endTime":1317.497,"body":"are, where are you in your career?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1317.537,"endTime":1320.727,"body":"Like as an engineering manager, you"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1317.537,"endTime":1320.727,"body":"want, might want a lot of visibility"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1320.727,"endTime":1322.527,"body":"on what your junior engineer is doing."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1323.077,"endTime":1326.827,"body":"And you see this long conversation"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1323.077,"endTime":1326.827,"body":"in a GitHub PR about giving that"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1326.827,"endTime":1330.867,"body":"person feedback, and now it's stored"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1326.827,"endTime":1330.867,"body":"as part of the commit history, right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1330.887,"endTime":1333.997,"body":"Whereas the senior engineer, you might"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1330.887,"endTime":1333.997,"body":"see a couple of things cause you know,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1333.997,"endTime":1338.407,"body":"they had a. Really like deep whiteboard"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1333.997,"endTime":1338.407,"body":"session at some point with the staff"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1338.407,"endTime":1340.277,"body":"engineer and it came in pretty clean."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1340.547,"endTime":1345.247,"body":"So again, I think it's, you know, love the"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1340.547,"endTime":1345.247,"body":"concept of it, but I think it's, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1345.417,"endTime":1349.327,"body":"we really need to think about what do we"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1345.417,"endTime":1349.327,"body":"do with it now that we're measuring it is"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1349.327,"endTime":1350.747,"body":"the, it's kind of the important next step."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1351.097,"endTime":1353.553,"body":"Yeah, I think, well, first"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1351.097,"endTime":1353.553,"body":"of all, you know, I love that story."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1353.953,"endTime":1356.673,"body":"That's a great story, but for"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1353.953,"endTime":1356.673,"body":"all of these metrics and for"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1356.673,"endTime":1358.243,"body":"our audience listening today."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1358.633,"endTime":1361.043,"body":"The takeaway here is"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1358.633,"endTime":1361.043,"body":"context matters a lot."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1361.913,"endTime":1363.303,"body":"So you're going to look at these metrics."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1363.303,"endTime":1365.313,"body":"We're going to look at"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1363.303,"endTime":1365.313,"body":"some of these insights."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1365.313,"endTime":1369.773,"body":"We're going to talk about the benchmarks,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1365.313,"endTime":1369.773,"body":"but think for yourself, if you're sitting"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1369.773,"endTime":1374.623,"body":"in the audience and listening, do I"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1369.773,"endTime":1374.623,"body":"know the metrics for my organization?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1375.23,"endTime":1376.34,"body":"Can I say what they are?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1376.905,"endTime":1380.095,"body":"You are the ones that understand"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1376.905,"endTime":1380.095,"body":"the context of your business, your"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1380.095,"endTime":1383.915,"body":"project, what you're looking to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1380.095,"endTime":1383.915,"body":"deliver, the seniority of your"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1383.915,"endTime":1385.655,"body":"team, the junior ness of your team."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1386.36,"endTime":1389.33,"body":"And I think what's great about everything"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1386.36,"endTime":1389.33,"body":"that we're going to talk about today"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1389.33,"endTime":1394.49,"body":"is that it opens up conversation to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1389.33,"endTime":1394.49,"body":"ask the right questions of yourself,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1394.49,"endTime":1396.68,"body":"of your team, and of your business."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1397.046,"endTime":1397.426,"body":"go ahead."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1397.716,"endTime":1399.696,"body":"So I think there's"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1397.716,"endTime":1399.696,"body":"another aspect of this that we've been"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1399.696,"endTime":1404.036,"body":"talking about recently, and I'd love to"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1399.696,"endTime":1404.036,"body":"see your reaction to this idea, which"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1404.066,"endTime":1406.806,"body":"is a lot of time we think about like"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1404.066,"endTime":1406.806,"body":"developer velocity metrics, like how"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1406.806,"endTime":1409.756,"body":"fast your PR is going through, how long"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1406.806,"endTime":1409.756,"body":"does it take you to do your code reviews?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1410.106,"endTime":1412.986,"body":"You know, how long does it take you"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1410.106,"endTime":1412.986,"body":"to write your tech spec, execute, et"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1412.986,"endTime":1413.826,"body":"cetera, et cetera, et cetera, right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1414.385,"endTime":1418.451,"body":"But if you think about that in the"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1414.385,"endTime":1418.451,"body":"aggregate of a team, I realized that one"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1418.451,"endTime":1421.441,"body":"of the things that I think is probably"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1418.451,"endTime":1421.441,"body":"one of the most interesting aspects"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1421.931,"endTime":1427.365,"body":"of this is how well it shows how well"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1421.931,"endTime":1427.365,"body":"that team's leader is doing, right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1427.405,"endTime":1431.089,"body":"If the team's leader is routinely,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1427.405,"endTime":1431.089,"body":"you know, they're responsible for"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1431.089,"endTime":1432.059,"body":"what their team delivers, right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1432.059,"endTime":1435.159,"body":"So if they are missing a lot of, the"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1432.059,"endTime":1435.159,"body":"team's missing a lot of deadlines,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1435.439,"endTime":1438.502,"body":"maybe their engagement survey scores"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1435.439,"endTime":1438.502,"body":"aren't so great, There's quality"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1438.502,"endTime":1440.012,"body":"problems, there's low test rate."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1440.962,"endTime":1445.416,"body":"Maybe that's a piece of a leadership"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1440.962,"endTime":1445.416,"body":"puzzle, part of your toolkit"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1445.796,"endTime":1447.736,"body":"rather than a developer piece."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1448.395,"endTime":1450.745,"body":"think a lot, talk a lot, I"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1448.395,"endTime":1450.745,"body":"think, in this industry, not just at"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1450.745,"endTime":1457.335,"body":"CircleCI, about kind of the delivery unit"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1450.745,"endTime":1457.335,"body":"as the team, measuring velocity as a team."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1457.825,"endTime":1463.395,"body":"the way that I think about that is,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1457.825,"endTime":1463.395,"body":"to your point of the manager, I expect"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1463.395,"endTime":1465.935,"body":"the team to be effective and I care"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1463.395,"endTime":1465.935,"body":"about the team's delivering, but"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1465.935,"endTime":1467.735,"body":"then what happens inside the team?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1468.08,"endTime":1468.29,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1468.29,"endTime":1471.3,"body":"If one person is not contributing,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1468.29,"endTime":1471.3,"body":"that's a concern of the manager."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1471.66,"endTime":1474.49,"body":"And then I guess your point is like,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1471.66,"endTime":1474.49,"body":"if the whole team is not delivering,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1474.49,"endTime":1475.51,"body":"that's probably a manager issue."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1475.51,"endTime":1476.56,"body":"It's not an individual issue."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1477.13,"endTime":1479.95,"body":"of course, other dynamics and"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1477.13,"endTime":1479.95,"body":"organizations we could go on forever, but"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1480.29,"endTime":1481.64,"body":"everything depends, right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1481.69,"endTime":1482.29,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1482.605,"endTime":1487.385,"body":"But I think the resolution,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1482.605,"endTime":1487.385,"body":"like being able to see below the"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1487.385,"endTime":1492.005,"body":"level of the team to me is the"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1487.385,"endTime":1492.005,"body":"responsibility of the manager, meaning."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1492.422,"endTime":1495.242,"body":"I can't, I can't see that much from"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1492.422,"endTime":1495.242,"body":"the outside, but from the outside"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1495.722,"endTime":1500.482,"body":"it's really hard to see the dynamic"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1495.722,"endTime":1500.482,"body":"that created the scenario, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1500.752,"endTime":1503.992,"body":"Okay, yes, this, your team is not"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1500.752,"endTime":1503.992,"body":"delivering as much value as another"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1503.992,"endTime":1505.672,"body":"team, or you're missing your deadlines."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1505.672,"endTime":1507.022,"body":"You're unpredictable and your delivery."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1507.022,"endTime":1509.621,"body":"You have lots of incidents,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1507.022,"endTime":1509.621,"body":"whatever you care about, but"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1509.621,"endTime":1512.411,"body":"there's some dynamics inside the"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1509.621,"endTime":1512.411,"body":"team that's causing that to happen."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1513.156,"endTime":1516.346,"body":"And to me, it's the manager's"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1513.156,"endTime":1516.346,"body":"responsibility to figure that out."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1517.256,"endTime":1520.536,"body":"And having that signal,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1517.256,"endTime":1520.536,"body":"right, is really kind of a key indicator."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1520.996,"endTime":1525.266,"body":"We probably could have spent"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1520.996,"endTime":1525.266,"body":"an hour just on this first, metric."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1525.266,"endTime":1526.131,"body":"Keep us going,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1526.131,"endTime":1526.549,"body":"Dan."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1526.549,"endTime":1527.801,"body":"I'm going to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1527.978,"endTime":1531.376,"body":"us forward and actually"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1527.978,"endTime":1531.376,"body":"start looking at some of the insights."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1531.376,"endTime":1533.156,"body":"We have five or six to go over here."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1533.906,"endTime":1538.006,"body":"And the first insight is around"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1533.906,"endTime":1538.006,"body":"the pull request lifecycle."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1538.006,"endTime":1540.246,"body":"So I'm going to read"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1538.006,"endTime":1540.246,"body":"the key, takeaway here."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1540.906,"endTime":1546.296,"body":"PR size, so pull request size is"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1540.906,"endTime":1546.296,"body":"the most significant driver of"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1546.296,"endTime":1549.316,"body":"velocity across the PR lifecycle."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1549.936,"endTime":1556.156,"body":"And what the little graph is showing"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1549.936,"endTime":1556.156,"body":"you here is as PRs get larger, cycle"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1556.166,"endTime":1559.146,"body":"time or velocity also gets larger."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1559.186,"endTime":1563.846,"body":"And as PRs get smaller, your"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1559.186,"endTime":1563.846,"body":"mirrored merge frequency increases"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1563.846,"endTime":1566.206,"body":"and your cycle time decreases."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1566.236,"endTime":1567.906,"body":"Now I love this insight."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1567.906,"endTime":1571.126,"body":"It's actually when I'm working with"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1567.906,"endTime":1571.126,"body":"customers, usually the first one."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1571.541,"endTime":1575.001,"body":"That we talk about around PR"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1571.541,"endTime":1575.001,"body":"size and usually when I come in"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1575.001,"endTime":1578.291,"body":"and work with a customer, the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1575.001,"endTime":1578.291,"body":"PR size is a little bit large."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1578.766,"endTime":1581.476,"body":"And it's not even about"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1578.766,"endTime":1581.476,"body":"the PR size being large."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1581.476,"endTime":1585.596,"body":"It's about what I was saying earlier with"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1581.476,"endTime":1585.596,"body":"the context of why, what is causing it."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1586.176,"endTime":1588.996,"body":"There could be a lot of different"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1586.176,"endTime":1588.996,"body":"things that are causing that"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1588.996,"endTime":1593.546,"body":"ranging from a, you know what, we're"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1588.996,"endTime":1593.546,"body":"working in a situation where we"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1593.546,"endTime":1595.586,"body":"only are releasing once every month."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1595.586,"endTime":1599.446,"body":"So developers try to get everything"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1595.586,"endTime":1599.446,"body":"into a PR or something like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1599.446,"endTime":1600.896,"body":"that to make sure it goes out."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1600.896,"endTime":1603.216,"body":"Otherwise they'll mix the next release."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1603.246,"endTime":1605.396,"body":"Or it could be something"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1603.246,"endTime":1605.396,"body":"that has to do with."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1605.906,"endTime":1606.666,"body":"technical debt."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1606.676,"endTime":1610.646,"body":"Every time that I try to change something"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1606.676,"endTime":1610.646,"body":"within this code base, I actually have"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1610.646,"endTime":1614.876,"body":"to touch five different files and change"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1610.646,"endTime":1614.876,"body":"all this stuff, even though it seems like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1614.876,"endTime":1617.726,"body":"a really, really small, request of me."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1617.786,"endTime":1620.156,"body":"I'm actually having to touch"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1617.786,"endTime":1620.156,"body":"a large amount of code."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1620.736,"endTime":1625.396,"body":"when you hear this takeaway of PR"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1620.736,"endTime":1625.396,"body":"size is the most significant, driver"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1625.396,"endTime":1629.516,"body":"of velocity across the PR lifecycle,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1625.396,"endTime":1629.516,"body":"what comes to mind for the two of you?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1630.041,"endTime":1634.318,"body":"I think the first thing"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1630.041,"endTime":1634.318,"body":"is the word driver and trying to, you"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1634.318,"endTime":1637.128,"body":"know, rep on behalf of my DSA team."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1637.128,"endTime":1638.658,"body":"Like, I think there's correlation."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1638.658,"endTime":1640.988,"body":"I don't know that we necessarily"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1638.658,"endTime":1640.988,"body":"have causality there."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1640.988,"endTime":1645.108,"body":"Like there are feedback loops in"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1640.988,"endTime":1645.108,"body":"software development that work both ways."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1645.621,"endTime":1651.571,"body":"You know, I think this is trying to"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1645.621,"endTime":1651.571,"body":"say PR size leads to reduced velocity,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1651.781,"endTime":1655.021,"body":"but I would argue that reduced"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1651.781,"endTime":1655.021,"body":"velocity leads to large PR size."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1655.021,"endTime":1655.181,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1655.181,"endTime":1657.661,"body":"If people are slow."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1658.121,"endTime":1662.981,"body":"To review and give me feedback, or it's"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1658.121,"endTime":1662.981,"body":"expensive to get a PR through the process,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1663.291,"endTime":1668.681,"body":"then I will jam more stuff into the PR and"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1663.291,"endTime":1668.681,"body":"then I get this negative feedback loop."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1668.681,"endTime":1673.431,"body":"I make it bigger, people take longer, so I"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1668.681,"endTime":1673.431,"body":"make it bigger, so people take longer, and"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1673.431,"endTime":1678.181,"body":"now we're into month long PRs instead of"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1673.431,"endTime":1678.181,"body":"like, like I've worked in teams where, you"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1678.181,"endTime":1683.601,"body":"know, we would not even mention anyone's"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1678.181,"endTime":1683.601,"body":"name, just write the PR, drop a link"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1683.601,"endTime":1686.351,"body":"into Slack or HipChat back in the day."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1687.356,"endTime":1689.466,"body":"And someone would just review it"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1687.356,"endTime":1689.466,"body":"in three minutes because they knew"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1689.466,"endTime":1690.806,"body":"exactly what I was working on."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1690.916,"endTime":1692.636,"body":"They had the full context, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1692.636,"endTime":1694.776,"body":"So it can tell you something"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1692.636,"endTime":1694.776,"body":"else about your organization."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1694.776,"endTime":1695.896,"body":"Again, everything is context, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1696.906,"endTime":1701.676,"body":"Are the people showing up to review"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1696.906,"endTime":1701.676,"body":"saying, I don't know anything about this."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1701.946,"endTime":1705.006,"body":"Now I need to sit down and"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1701.946,"endTime":1705.006,"body":"understand everything that"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1705.006,"endTime":1707.406,"body":"surrounds this change, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1707.466,"endTime":1710.826,"body":"Therefore, I'm only going to do this"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1707.466,"endTime":1710.826,"body":"on my coffee break in the morning."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1711.276,"endTime":1716.376,"body":"Versus, I could stop what I'm doing,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1711.276,"endTime":1716.376,"body":"review this, agree to it, and move"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1716.376,"endTime":1718.486,"body":"on in a very short period of time."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1718.876,"endTime":1721.876,"body":"And so I think the, there's"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1718.876,"endTime":1721.876,"body":"like organizational culture and"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1721.876,"endTime":1723.646,"body":"structure that drives large PRs."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1724.276,"endTime":1728.906,"body":"Versus always being large PRs driving"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1724.276,"endTime":1728.906,"body":"that organizational structure."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1729.726,"endTime":1731.056,"body":"100"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1729.726,"endTime":1731.056,"body":"percent agree on that one."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1731.106,"endTime":1737.516,"body":"I think that's a, it may be non obvious"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1731.106,"endTime":1737.516,"body":"to some, but you know, the large PR side,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1737.516,"endTime":1742.886,"body":"it's like, what bureaucracy do you have"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1737.516,"endTime":1742.886,"body":"that's causing your developer pain, right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1742.886,"endTime":1745.766,"body":"And especially in your example, you"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1742.886,"endTime":1745.766,"body":"think that developers had to re merge"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1745.786,"endTime":1747.676,"body":"14 times, now they're angry, right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1747.706,"endTime":1749.856,"body":"So God only knows what's"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1747.706,"endTime":1749.856,"body":"going into those updates."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1750.725,"endTime":1753.785,"body":"I mean, you talked"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1750.725,"endTime":1753.785,"body":"about, I think a good situation"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1753.785,"endTime":1757.435,"body":"where there's a shared context"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1753.785,"endTime":1757.435,"body":"within the development team."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1757.805,"endTime":1760.835,"body":"But I think you said, Hey, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1757.805,"endTime":1760.835,"body":"let's say that I was making a change."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1760.835,"endTime":1763.305,"body":"You already knew that I was"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1760.835,"endTime":1763.305,"body":"going to be working on that."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1763.305,"endTime":1767.895,"body":"So when the PR goes up, you would say,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1763.305,"endTime":1767.895,"body":"Oh yeah, I knew Dan was doing that."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1767.905,"endTime":1769.025,"body":"I have all the context."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1769.025,"endTime":1770.565,"body":"I could review this really quick."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1771.34,"endTime":1774.77,"body":"Now, I think on the flip side in a"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1771.34,"endTime":1774.77,"body":"situation where there's not a lot"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1774.77,"endTime":1778.19,"body":"of context between the teams, so"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1774.77,"endTime":1778.19,"body":"maybe the one team is working on"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1778.2,"endTime":1783.76,"body":"many different things in parallel"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1778.2,"endTime":1783.76,"body":"and also the PR size is large."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1783.88,"endTime":1786.43,"body":"That doesn't sound like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1783.88,"endTime":1786.43,"body":"a fun review to me."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1786.55,"endTime":1790.54,"body":"If I'm a developer, I might say, you"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1786.55,"endTime":1790.54,"body":"know what, I'm going to wait till,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1790.54,"endTime":1792.17,"body":"I don't know, Friday to do this."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1792.72,"endTime":1795.83,"body":"That's Monday, or at least"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1792.72,"endTime":1795.83,"body":"wait to the next day."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1796.67,"endTime":1797.72,"body":"I'd rather be coding."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1797.72,"endTime":1801.73,"body":"I'd rather be working on something on"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1797.72,"endTime":1801.73,"body":"my own than unpack this enormous PR."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1801.73,"endTime":1802.84,"body":"So I'm not going to pick it up."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1804.02,"endTime":1805.05,"body":"Yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1804.02,"endTime":1805.05,"body":"that's exactly right."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1805.05,"endTime":1807.58,"body":"Like I think, you know, I'm"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1805.05,"endTime":1807.58,"body":"thinking whip limits, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1807.62,"endTime":1810.52,"body":"I mean, it's kind of nuts how"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1807.62,"endTime":1810.52,"body":"quickly you get from PR size to"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1810.52,"endTime":1811.98,"body":"whip limits or whatever, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1811.98,"endTime":1813.9,"body":"Like whatever, whatever"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1811.98,"endTime":1813.9,"body":"other tool we reach for."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1813.9,"endTime":1817.766,"body":"But, and I think as, as leaders,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1813.9,"endTime":1817.766,"body":"I don't know the makeup of the"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1817.766,"endTime":1820.366,"body":"audience, but I know someone's"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1817.766,"endTime":1820.366,"body":"laughing at this as I say it like."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1821.036,"endTime":1822.756,"body":"We're like, well, I have six engineers."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1822.756,"endTime":1825.776,"body":"That means I could do six"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1822.756,"endTime":1825.776,"body":"things at the same time, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1826.311,"endTime":1829.091,"body":"And someone is saying, but we"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1826.311,"endTime":1829.091,"body":"pair and that's more productive."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1829.181,"endTime":1830.311,"body":"And you're like, that"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1829.181,"endTime":1830.311,"body":"doesn't make any sense."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1830.311,"endTime":1832.001,"body":"Two people are doing"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1830.311,"endTime":1832.001,"body":"the work of one person."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1833.481,"endTime":1835.911,"body":"This is where that matters, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1836.431,"endTime":1840.921,"body":"Two people driving up or even"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1836.431,"endTime":1840.921,"body":"working kind of in the same area"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1841.721,"endTime":1845.151,"body":"so that they have, like, they're"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1841.721,"endTime":1845.151,"body":"thinking about that problem, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1845.151,"endTime":1846.721,"body":"You and I are working on similar things."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1846.961,"endTime":1848.051,"body":"You're thinking about the same problem."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1848.051,"endTime":1849.531,"body":"And I say, Hey, I'm going"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1848.051,"endTime":1849.531,"body":"to make this change here."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1849.571,"endTime":1850.541,"body":"Like that totally makes sense."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1850.541,"endTime":1852.821,"body":"I was just thinking about"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1850.541,"endTime":1852.821,"body":"that versus I haven't looked"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1852.821,"endTime":1854.141,"body":"at that code base in a year."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1854.801,"endTime":1857.751,"body":"Now I need to go reread this whole"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1854.801,"endTime":1857.751,"body":"chunk of the code base kind of thing."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1857.751,"endTime":1857.961,"body":"So like."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1858.666,"endTime":1864.746,"body":"The, again, to the point of it being a"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1858.666,"endTime":1864.746,"body":"sign of the dynamics that are happening"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1864.746,"endTime":1870.016,"body":"in your organization more than just"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1864.746,"endTime":1870.016,"body":"because, because what happens a warning"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1870.026,"endTime":1874.126,"body":"to all you leaders out there, what happens"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1870.026,"endTime":1874.126,"body":"when you read something like this, the"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1874.126,"endTime":1877.466,"body":"simple version is like, we're going"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1874.126,"endTime":1877.466,"body":"to tell all of our engineers, they're"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1877.466,"endTime":1883.866,"body":"not allowed to have more than 20 lines"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1877.466,"endTime":1883.866,"body":"in a PR those PRs will be terrible."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1884.516,"endTime":1884.696,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1884.696,"endTime":1888.706,"body":"It's going to be like every single"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1884.696,"endTime":1888.706,"body":"one will be exactly 20 lines and"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1888.876,"endTime":1889.876,"body":"you'll be like, what does this do?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1889.876,"endTime":1891.606,"body":"Well, there's another 20 lines coming."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1892.266,"endTime":1892.486,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1892.516,"endTime":1893.956,"body":"Like, it's nonsense."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1893.966,"endTime":1896.176,"body":"I'm pretty sure"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1893.966,"endTime":1896.176,"body":"there's a Dilbert cartoon about this."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1896.856,"endTime":1900.426,"body":"We all live in a Dilbert"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1896.856,"endTime":1900.426,"body":"cartoon for sure, but like, you can't,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1900.456,"endTime":1902.026,"body":"you can't drive from the number, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1902.036,"endTime":1902.576,"body":"That's the point."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1902.586,"endTime":1903.836,"body":"This is the beginning of a conversation."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1903.846,"endTime":1905.556,"body":"You go say, okay, what are we doing?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1905.556,"endTime":1906.756,"body":"Like, where are we falling down?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1906.756,"endTime":1908.976,"body":"Why are we working on too"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1906.756,"endTime":1908.976,"body":"many different things?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1909.406,"endTime":1909.766,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1910.026,"endTime":1911.246,"body":"and so I, I just think there's a"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":1911.266,"endTime":1912.586,"body":"ton that comes out of this."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1913.553,"endTime":1916.613,"body":"what you made me think"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1913.553,"endTime":1916.613,"body":"of also, if I'm a team leader."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1917.208,"endTime":1918.998,"body":"Or maybe I'm planning my sprint."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1919.058,"endTime":1923.108,"body":"Maybe we would be more inclined to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1919.058,"endTime":1923.108,"body":"say, Hey, let's tackle a particular"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1923.108,"endTime":1924.958,"body":"problem together this sprint."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1924.958,"endTime":1928.068,"body":"So everyone has the same"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1924.958,"endTime":1928.068,"body":"context when the PR goes up."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1928.118,"endTime":1931.788,"body":"Because the other way to do it is say,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1928.118,"endTime":1931.788,"body":"okay, I have six developers on the team."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1931.788,"endTime":1934.278,"body":"I'm going to go send you off"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1931.788,"endTime":1934.278,"body":"on six different missions."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1934.278,"endTime":1938.048,"body":"Well, you know, probably your"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1934.278,"endTime":1938.048,"body":"review time is going to be larger."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":1938.048,"endTime":1938.445,"body":"And you"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1938.445,"endTime":1941.774,"body":"better hope you don't"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1938.445,"endTime":1941.774,"body":"hit it, find any buses near your team."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1941.774,"endTime":1942.051,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1942.051,"endTime":1944.548,"body":"So, you know, single points"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1942.051,"endTime":1944.548,"body":"of failure or anything."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1945.098,"endTime":1948.248,"body":"I think that the other thing I'm actually"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1945.098,"endTime":1948.248,"body":"curious about, and I remembered it"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1948.268,"endTime":1952.358,"body":"after the last, when we did the webcast,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1948.268,"endTime":1952.358,"body":"which is, we asked this question,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1952.358,"endTime":1956.338,"body":"like what, what constitute a pull"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1952.358,"endTime":1956.338,"body":"request, like, so for the context, for"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1956.338,"endTime":1961.758,"body":"example, of, really tight teams moving"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1956.338,"endTime":1961.758,"body":"quickly, you know, how much of that"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1961.758,"endTime":1964.808,"body":"code and how much of the culture is"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1961.758,"endTime":1964.808,"body":"around developer documentation, right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1964.808,"endTime":1967.548,"body":"You know, is there a markdown"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1964.808,"endTime":1967.548,"body":"that's included in that and, you"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1967.548,"endTime":1970.388,"body":"know, drive and maybe the, you"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1967.548,"endTime":1970.388,"body":"know, there's more documentation."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1970.388,"endTime":1970.463,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1970.773,"endTime":1973.663,"body":"Or maybe there's more documentation plus"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1970.773,"endTime":1973.663,"body":"unit tests than there is code, right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1973.663,"endTime":1977.873,"body":"So I think, again, there's another sort"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1973.663,"endTime":1977.873,"body":"of contextual aspect of this metric that"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1977.873,"endTime":1981.143,"body":"might be kind of interesting, to think"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1977.873,"endTime":1981.143,"body":"about because in, you know, my ideal"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1981.143,"endTime":1985.773,"body":"world, the PRs are of reasonable size for"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1981.143,"endTime":1985.773,"body":"the, whatever it is that they're solving"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1985.773,"endTime":1989.643,"body":"for, but also include some tests and some"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1985.773,"endTime":1989.643,"body":"documentation and hopefully something"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1989.643,"endTime":1991.123,"body":"like an architectural decision to reduce."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1991.133,"endTime":1993.433,"body":"So six months from now, when we go"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1991.133,"endTime":1993.433,"body":"look at it, like, why did we do that?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1993.463,"endTime":1994.023,"body":"Oh, right."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1994.633,"endTime":1997.483,"body":"Because Rob said that we're"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1994.633,"endTime":1997.483,"body":"going to do this thing."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":1997.813,"endTime":2000.163,"body":"And so I think that, again."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2000.668,"endTime":2005.151,"body":"Loving the concept of, you know, how"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2000.668,"endTime":2005.151,"body":"can you make this an actionable metric,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2005.561,"endTime":2008.891,"body":"you know, to drive the culture that"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2005.561,"endTime":2008.891,"body":"you want to see, you know, maybe, you"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2008.891,"endTime":2013.371,"body":"know, something like young developers,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2008.891,"endTime":2013.371,"body":"smaller scope problems, smaller PRs,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2013.401,"endTime":2015.631,"body":"bigger developers, probably touching"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2013.401,"endTime":2015.631,"body":"more things, you're doing a big"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2015.631,"endTime":2017.761,"body":"refactor, that's going to be huge, right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2017.771,"endTime":2020.468,"body":"How can you, but then, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2017.771,"endTime":2020.468,"body":"that the outcome of that is then"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2020.468,"endTime":2023.578,"body":"your subsequent PRs will start to get"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2020.468,"endTime":2023.578,"body":"smaller again, because now you don't"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2023.578,"endTime":2026.848,"body":"have to touch, you know, at Netscape,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2023.578,"endTime":2026.848,"body":"we had this one header file, net."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2027.048,"endTime":2028.178,"body":"h, I'll never forget this."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2028.523,"endTime":2031.023,"body":"It had the world's largest"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2028.523,"endTime":2031.023,"body":"global symbol table in it."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2031.643,"endTime":2035.033,"body":"It was so big, we had to have a custom"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2031.643,"endTime":2035.033,"body":"compiler from SGI because it wouldn't"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2035.033,"endTime":2037.183,"body":"compile in the, in the regular compiler."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2037.353,"endTime":2040.053,"body":"I'm saying this now, cause you know,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2037.353,"endTime":2040.053,"body":"everybody involved is now dead."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2040.583,"endTime":2043.393,"body":"Um, they're not dead,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2040.583,"endTime":2043.393,"body":"but they should be dead."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2043.573,"endTime":2044.103,"body":"Intrigue."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2044.903,"endTime":2046.563,"body":"It was a, it was a"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2044.903,"endTime":2046.563,"body":"wretched, wretched thing."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2046.563,"endTime":2046.823,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2046.833,"endTime":2049.293,"body":"And so, you know, the interns"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2046.833,"endTime":2049.293,"body":"weren't allowed to touch that file."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2049.793,"endTime":2051.623,"body":"and you think, oh, well that was 30 years."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2051.643,"endTime":2052.313,"body":"Jesus Christ."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2052.313,"endTime":2053.163,"body":"That was 30 years ago."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2053.613,"endTime":2054.843,"body":"but we, we, we're humans."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2054.843,"endTime":2057.013,"body":"We keep making the same"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2054.843,"endTime":2057.013,"body":"mistakes over and over again."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2057.013,"endTime":2057.273,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2057.323,"endTime":2060.503,"body":"And so I think the interesting thing is"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2057.323,"endTime":2060.503,"body":"like before we were leaning in on where,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2060.513,"endTime":2061.923,"body":"where did the leadership go into this?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2062.363,"endTime":2065.453,"body":"But I also wonder like, how can"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2062.363,"endTime":2065.453,"body":"you make this directly actionable"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2065.813,"endTime":2067.553,"body":"for that junior developer, right."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2067.683,"endTime":2069.753,"body":"For him to understand or him or her"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2067.683,"endTime":2069.753,"body":"to understand what they're doing."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2070.163,"endTime":2075.863,"body":"I mean, regardless of causality"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2070.163,"endTime":2075.863,"body":"or whatever, like tooling, right."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2075.893,"endTime":2079.471,"body":"Or the approaches I guess I would"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2075.893,"endTime":2079.471,"body":"just share a story to say, but like."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2080.341,"endTime":2081.611,"body":"Feature flags, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2081.681,"endTime":2082.861,"body":"branch by abstraction."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2083.031,"endTime":2087.921,"body":"How do I make PRs that are not"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2083.031,"endTime":2087.921,"body":"the whole unit of work, but allow"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2087.931,"endTime":2089.411,"body":"people to keep up with my context?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2089.411,"endTime":2090.641,"body":"That's another approach, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2090.641,"endTime":2093.441,"body":"Like, I've got someone, maybe we're"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2090.641,"endTime":2093.441,"body":"working on slightly different things."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2093.441,"endTime":2095.351,"body":"I'm like, hey, I'm thinking of doing"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2093.441,"endTime":2095.351,"body":"this, I'm thinking of doing this."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2095.601,"endTime":2097.471,"body":"I'm testing it out, I'm"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2095.601,"endTime":2097.471,"body":"getting feedback in production."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2097.471,"endTime":2099.001,"body":"These are all great things, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2099.391,"endTime":2102.911,"body":"Instead of, I need to write the"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2099.391,"endTime":2102.911,"body":"whole thing, you know, it's kind of"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2102.911,"endTime":2104.411,"body":"going back to the PR maturity thing."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2104.756,"endTime":2107.856,"body":"And then, oh, and then we're going"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2104.756,"endTime":2107.856,"body":"to get into refactoring later."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2108.196,"endTime":2109.056,"body":"I'm so excited."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2109.216,"endTime":2110.116,"body":"Sorry, spoilers."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2110.52,"endTime":2116.18,"body":"but like, what tools do I have as a"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2110.52,"endTime":2116.18,"body":"developer to actually write small PRs?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2116.21,"endTime":2119.58,"body":"Are we, coaching, are we training"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2116.21,"endTime":2119.58,"body":"our younger developers on how to"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2119.58,"endTime":2123.48,"body":"break down work in a way that isn't"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2119.58,"endTime":2123.48,"body":"necessarily complete, but allows us"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2123.48,"endTime":2125.28,"body":"to evaluate our ideas along the way?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2125.28,"endTime":2126.7,"body":"And I think there's lots"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2125.28,"endTime":2126.7,"body":"of opportunity in there."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2126.75,"endTime":2127.5,"body":"Yeah, that's it."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2127.923,"endTime":2132.663,"body":"I'll push this forward, but that's exactly"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2127.923,"endTime":2132.663,"body":"why I usually like starting with PR size"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2132.663,"endTime":2136.973,"body":"when I go to work with a customer and for"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2132.663,"endTime":2136.973,"body":"you all in the audience, like, even if"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2136.973,"endTime":2141.943,"body":"you just know what your PR size is and"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2136.973,"endTime":2141.943,"body":"you have a conversation with it about the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2141.943,"endTime":2144.023,"body":"team, you're going to discover something."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2144.533,"endTime":2148.493,"body":"Whether you want to make it smaller or"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2144.533,"endTime":2148.493,"body":"you're okay with the size, like Rob's"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2148.493,"endTime":2151.393,"body":"saying, they might say something back"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2148.493,"endTime":2151.393,"body":"to you like, yeah, I'd love to have"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2151.393,"endTime":2153.453,"body":"smaller PRs, but I don't trust our."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2153.768,"endTime":2156.718,"body":"Feature flagging capability, uh,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2153.768,"endTime":2156.718,"body":"whatever it is, we don't have it."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2156.718,"endTime":2157.748,"body":"I don't know how to use it."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2157.758,"endTime":2158.728,"body":"So my PRs are here."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2159.464,"endTime":2163.854,"body":"so a few of the supporting insights,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2159.464,"endTime":2163.854,"body":"if we move on, to the next slide,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2164.819,"endTime":2168.659,"body":"larger PRs wait longer to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2164.819,"endTime":2168.659,"body":"get picked up for review."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2169.059,"endTime":2170.469,"body":"I think it makes sense, right?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2170.639,"endTime":2172.909,"body":"Who wants a review in an enormous PR?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2172.993,"endTime":2173.423,"body":"no one."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2174.323,"endTime":2175.673,"body":"I'm going to save that for another day."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2176.213,"endTime":2179.653,"body":"Larger PRs have longer cycle times,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2176.213,"endTime":2179.653,"body":"probably for the same reason."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2180.131,"endTime":2182.421,"body":"Larger PRs take longer to approve."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2182.651,"endTime":2184.951,"body":"I think all of these pretty"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2182.651,"endTime":2184.951,"body":"much correlate together."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2185.861,"endTime":2189.561,"body":"PRs that wait longer for the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2185.861,"endTime":2189.561,"body":"review to start also take"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2189.561,"endTime":2192.591,"body":"longer from approval to merge."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2193.281,"endTime":2197.861,"body":"And larger PRs are modified"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2193.281,"endTime":2197.861,"body":"more heavily during the review"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2198.418,"endTime":2201.038,"body":"with my"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2198.418,"endTime":2201.038,"body":"ginormous PR being an exception."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2201.918,"endTime":2202.128,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2202.128,"endTime":2202.958,"body":"Besides you took two"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2202.958,"endTime":2203.388,"body":"hours."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2203.648,"endTime":2204.428,"body":"There's an exception to"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2204.428,"endTime":2204.708,"body":"every"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2204.708,"endTime":2205.148,"body":"rule, but"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2205.178,"endTime":2207.768,"body":"you did not build"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2205.178,"endTime":2207.768,"body":"your plan on what was it?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2207.768,"endTime":2208.858,"body":"900, 000 line."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2208.908,"endTime":2210.948,"body":"Maybe it's something stupidly large."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2212.47,"endTime":2212.98,"body":"Let's move on."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2213.03,"endTime":2214.71,"body":"Oh, this one's funny."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2214.85,"endTime":2217.51,"body":"Let's move on to the next insight here."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2217.51,"endTime":2217.7,"body":"So."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2218.48,"endTime":2220.98,"body":"Project Management Hygiene."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2221.3,"endTime":2222.56,"body":"So, key takeaway."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2223.44,"endTime":2229.79,"body":"Poor project management hygiene is"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2223.44,"endTime":2229.79,"body":"directly correlated with higher velocity."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2229.79,"endTime":2230.71,"body":"So, I'll say it again."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2230.79,"endTime":2236.29,"body":"Poor project management hygiene is"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2230.79,"endTime":2236.29,"body":"directly correlated with higher velocity."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2236.29,"endTime":2238.61,"body":"You know what this made"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2236.29,"endTime":2238.61,"body":"me think about, actually?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2238.61,"endTime":2240.45,"body":"Jira"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2238.61,"endTime":2240.45,"body":"tickets are for suckers."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2241.786,"endTime":2243.476,"body":"I'm ordering"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2241.786,"endTime":2243.476,"body":"my t shirt right now."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2244.716,"endTime":2245.696,"body":"Hackathons."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2246.736,"endTime":2247.326,"body":"Yeah, no."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2247.876,"endTime":2249.866,"body":"But why did it make"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2247.876,"endTime":2249.866,"body":"me think about hackathons?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2249.876,"endTime":2254.495,"body":"Some of the you're usually working"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2249.876,"endTime":2254.495,"body":"with a few developers that you"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2254.495,"endTime":2256.505,"body":"probably, know pretty well."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2257.365,"endTime":2262.565,"body":"You're definitely, not going to JIRA"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2257.365,"endTime":2262.565,"body":"and coming with your idea and saying,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2262.575,"endTime":2267.335,"body":"let me write a story before we go"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2262.575,"endTime":2267.335,"body":"and work on this hackathon project."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2267.685,"endTime":2271.845,"body":"Yeah, that hackathons I've seen,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2267.685,"endTime":2271.845,"body":"developers, you know, not only come"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2271.845,"endTime":2273.625,"body":"up with some of the coolest features."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2274.145,"endTime":2278.795,"body":"for the business, but move at a"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2274.145,"endTime":2278.795,"body":"really rapid rate, you know, 24 hours."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2278.815,"endTime":2283.635,"body":"And I think, you know, when I"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2278.815,"endTime":2283.635,"body":"think back to a hackathon, it's the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2283.635,"endTime":2288.875,"body":"situation where the developer is"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2283.635,"endTime":2288.875,"body":"also the product manager in a sense."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2288.875,"endTime":2290.805,"body":"I don't, we have a shared context."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2290.805,"endTime":2292.485,"body":"I don't need to open a JIRA ticket."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2292.485,"endTime":2294.685,"body":"I don't need to explain"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2292.485,"endTime":2294.685,"body":"everything that I'm doing."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2295.895,"endTime":2298.065,"body":"And therefore I move very, very quickly."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2298.075,"endTime":2299.815,"body":"Now, what's the downside?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2300.355,"endTime":2303.615,"body":"To putting hackathon code into production."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2303.945,"endTime":2306.415,"body":"Oh, that's a really"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2303.945,"endTime":2306.415,"body":"good way to kill your company."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2307.265,"endTime":2308.445,"body":"Quality, right?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2308.635,"endTime":2312.165,"body":"So anyways, when I, when I saw"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2308.635,"endTime":2312.165,"body":"this, I started to think about"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2312.165,"endTime":2316.025,"body":"that type of hackathon mentality,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2312.165,"endTime":2316.025,"body":"but I'd love to hear what you two"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2316.275,"endTime":2317.595,"body":"think about this key takeaway."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2317.595,"endTime":2317.945,"body":"I"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2318.358,"endTime":2321.668,"body":"the more, you call it"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2318.358,"endTime":2321.668,"body":"bureaucracy, you call it process, call"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2321.668,"endTime":2325.898,"body":"it whatever, the more of it, whatever"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2321.668,"endTime":2325.898,"body":"it is, it's going to slow things down."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2325.908,"endTime":2328.418,"body":"So going back to something"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2325.908,"endTime":2328.418,"body":"that Rob was saying earlier."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2328.913,"endTime":2333.403,"body":"You know, how do we have a collective"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2328.913,"endTime":2333.403,"body":"shared context that allows us as"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2333.403,"endTime":2337.653,"body":"engineers to move forward with the"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2333.403,"endTime":2337.653,"body":"lowest amount of friction, right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2338.323,"endTime":2342.573,"body":"inevitably, as I mean, this really"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2338.323,"endTime":2342.573,"body":"becomes ultimately a scale problem."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2342.813,"endTime":2345.553,"body":"A lot of people love working"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2342.813,"endTime":2345.553,"body":"on the, in the tiny startups."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2345.573,"endTime":2348.473,"body":"You know, the engineering team is"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2345.573,"endTime":2348.473,"body":"less than a hundred people, right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2348.483,"endTime":2350.193,"body":"That's the greatest glory days."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2350.193,"endTime":2351.223,"body":"It's the greatest time of their life."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2351.223,"endTime":2354.073,"body":"And then if they stick with it, you"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2351.223,"endTime":2354.073,"body":"know, and the company is successful,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2354.073,"endTime":2357.043,"body":"next thing you know, the engineering"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2354.073,"endTime":2357.043,"body":"team is a thousand people and they're"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2357.053,"endTime":2359.493,"body":"bemoaning their very existence, right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2359.493,"endTime":2359.553,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2359.853,"endTime":2360.293,"body":"why?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2360.323,"endTime":2364.413,"body":"Because the amount of thinking, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2360.323,"endTime":2364.413,"body":"there's, there's probably an order of"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2364.433,"endTime":2369.103,"body":"magnitude, more products and an order"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2364.433,"endTime":2369.103,"body":"of magnitude, more enterprise customers"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2369.113,"endTime":2371.093,"body":"that are picky and all the other things."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2371.093,"endTime":2374.373,"body":"And we got to slow down, So I"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2371.093,"endTime":2374.373,"body":"would also argue, like I work for"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2374.373,"endTime":2375.643,"body":"a company that makes databases."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2376.393,"endTime":2380.973,"body":"Let me tell you how often our enterprise"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2376.393,"endTime":2380.973,"body":"customers want to upgrade their database."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2381.463,"endTime":2381.973,"body":"Never."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2382.253,"endTime":2382.533,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2382.533,"endTime":2387.458,"body":"So that's a different kind of problem,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2382.533,"endTime":2387.458,"body":"but I do think there's a. You know,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2387.458,"endTime":2391.118,"body":"again, as you scale your organization,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2387.458,"endTime":2391.118,"body":"as you, as you grow your development"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2391.118,"endTime":2397.266,"body":"team, keeping friction low, as low"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2391.118,"endTime":2397.266,"body":"as you can, recognizing it will be"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2397.266,"endTime":2401.096,"body":"as low as it was when you started, I"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2397.266,"endTime":2401.096,"body":"think is a good goal to keep in mind."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2401.106,"endTime":2405.156,"body":"So, you don't let that tech debt get"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2401.106,"endTime":2405.156,"body":"too crazy because what inevitably"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2405.156,"endTime":2406.776,"body":"happens is your quality goes down."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2407.111,"endTime":2407.431,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2407.441,"endTime":2410.771,"body":"And then the VPs are going, Oh,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2407.441,"endTime":2410.771,"body":"no, we got to bring in all of these"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2410.881,"endTime":2414.441,"body":"scrum masters and we're going to do"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2410.881,"endTime":2414.441,"body":"agile and everything will be better."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2415.171,"endTime":2415.391,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2415.391,"endTime":2416.261,"body":"Sorry, I didn't mean to make you"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2416.261,"endTime":2416.671,"body":"choke,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2417.671,"endTime":2419.821,"body":"but you know, that's what, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2417.671,"endTime":2419.821,"body":"I mean, How long are we going to do"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2419.821,"endTime":2421.701,"body":"the training"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2419.821,"endTime":2421.701,"body":"for with the Agile?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2422.081,"endTime":2424.991,"body":"So, you know, not to"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2422.081,"endTime":2424.991,"body":"bag on scrum masters and Agile, it's"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2425.021,"endTime":2426.441,"body":"fine if you've, that's your thing."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2427.178,"endTime":2428.598,"body":"I'm not an Agile person."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2429.081,"endTime":2431.551,"body":"but I think that, you"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2429.081,"endTime":2431.551,"body":"know, there's a balance."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2432.101,"endTime":2432.441,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2432.511,"endTime":2437.144,"body":"What's sometimes even within a, let's"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2432.511,"endTime":2437.144,"body":"say CircleCI has got this new thing."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2437.154,"endTime":2440.468,"body":"You're going to go out quickly,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2437.154,"endTime":2440.468,"body":"you know, go, go to market product"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2440.468,"endTime":2444.918,"body":"testing, whatever, and then you're"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2440.468,"endTime":2444.918,"body":"going to slow down as much as you"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2444.928,"endTime":2447.948,"body":"have to in order to make sure that"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2444.928,"endTime":2447.948,"body":"you meet your, your enterprise needs."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2448.494,"endTime":2452.174,"body":"I think there's another example"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2448.494,"endTime":2452.174,"body":"that I would use similar to the hackathon"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2452.184,"endTime":2454.224,"body":"is, we use this a bunch as incidents."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2454.714,"endTime":2459.304,"body":"And one of the things that I would say,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2454.714,"endTime":2459.304,"body":"like when I reflect on incidents, not"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2459.304,"endTime":2462.944,"body":"that I wish them upon anyone, but I kind"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2459.304,"endTime":2462.944,"body":"of like them or enjoy them anyway, but"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2462.944,"endTime":2467.211,"body":"like you have clarity of purpose, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2467.221,"endTime":2468.421,"body":"You've shared context."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2468.461,"endTime":2471.841,"body":"Everyone knows there's"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2468.461,"endTime":2471.841,"body":"one priority, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2471.841,"endTime":2474.371,"body":"It's what everyone says they"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2471.841,"endTime":2474.371,"body":"want in their organization."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2474.796,"endTime":2477.646,"body":"But it only occurs during the"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2474.796,"endTime":2477.646,"body":"most stressful time that anyone"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2477.646,"endTime":2479.276,"body":"experiences in their organization."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2479.356,"endTime":2482.106,"body":"After you enter the war room"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2479.356,"endTime":2482.106,"body":"together and get the context."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2482.106,"endTime":2485.906,"body":"Right, it's like, well, like, does"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2482.106,"endTime":2485.906,"body":"anyone say, oh, but we also need to"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2485.906,"endTime":2488.046,"body":"like worry about that typo over here?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2488.056,"endTime":2489.506,"body":"Everyone's like, why are you"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2488.056,"endTime":2489.506,"body":"talking about that right now?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2489.506,"endTime":2491.206,"body":"Like we have one thing"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2489.506,"endTime":2491.206,"body":"that matters, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2491.386,"endTime":2494.086,"body":"And that's what people kind of strive for."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2494.236,"endTime":2498.386,"body":"And so the question is"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2494.236,"endTime":2498.386,"body":"like, can you create that?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2499.016,"endTime":2502.176,"body":"And I don't mean with like"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2499.016,"endTime":2502.176,"body":"the caffeine fueled 72 hour"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2502.176,"endTime":2504.236,"body":"stretch of insanity or whatever."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2504.236,"endTime":2504.376,"body":"But like."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2505.061,"endTime":2510.561,"body":"Can you create that quality of work, that"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2505.061,"endTime":2510.561,"body":"sort of singular understanding of what"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2510.561,"endTime":2515.151,"body":"matters more broadly than in those, either"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2510.561,"endTime":2515.151,"body":"those hackathons, I mean, the hackathons"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2515.151,"endTime":2518.251,"body":"are always funny to me because everyone's"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2515.151,"endTime":2518.251,"body":"like, Oh yeah, well, no, we need to have"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2518.251,"endTime":2519.951,"body":"a hackathon so we can do some innovation."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2520.791,"endTime":2524.541,"body":"I'm like, what are you doing"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2520.791,"endTime":2524.541,"body":"the other 51 weeks of the year?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2524.541,"endTime":2527.321,"body":"Like we should probably just make"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2524.541,"endTime":2527.321,"body":"innovation something that we do, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2527.321,"endTime":2529.981,"body":"Like the fact that we need exceptions."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2530.631,"endTime":2533.601,"body":"In order to be great at"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2530.631,"endTime":2533.601,"body":"delivering feels weird."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2534.071,"endTime":2536.791,"body":"It feels like a problem to say, if"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2534.071,"endTime":2536.791,"body":"that exists in your organization,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2536.791,"endTime":2538.141,"body":"like, please go address that problem."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2539.381,"endTime":2543.601,"body":"The other thing that I think about,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2539.381,"endTime":2543.601,"body":"about this particular metric is, I"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2543.611,"endTime":2547.234,"body":"personally believe, I don't know if"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2543.611,"endTime":2547.234,"body":"people are familiar with this meme,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2547.371,"endTime":2553.751,"body":"like, great project management hygiene"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2547.371,"endTime":2553.751,"body":"is probably maximizing your mediocrity."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2554.448,"endTime":2557.488,"body":"Teams that are at the absolute bottom"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2554.448,"endTime":2557.488,"body":"of the curve and have no idea what"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2557.488,"endTime":2560.518,"body":"they're doing and are like, you"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2557.488,"endTime":2560.518,"body":"know, cowboy coding or whatever."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2561.074,"endTime":2562.774,"body":"They'd probably rank poorly on this."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2563.234,"endTime":2565.824,"body":"But the best teams that I've"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2563.234,"endTime":2565.824,"body":"ever worked on have not been that"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2565.824,"endTime":2570.204,"body":"concerned about whether they put the"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2565.824,"endTime":2570.204,"body":"right JIRA ticket number in the PR."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2570.681,"endTime":2574.511,"body":"So that everyone could follow the"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2570.681,"endTime":2574.511,"body":"flow because they knew exactly"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2574.511,"endTime":2575.631,"body":"what they were trying to deliver."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2575.861,"endTime":2578.171,"body":"Everybody knew exactly what they"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2575.861,"endTime":2578.171,"body":"were trying to deliver and said,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2578.171,"endTime":2579.881,"body":"Hey, take a look at this real quick."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2580.091,"endTime":2580.981,"body":"You think we should fix this?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2580.981,"endTime":2581.261,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2581.261,"endTime":2581.531,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2581.531,"endTime":2582.331,"body":"What if we moved it over there?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2582.351,"endTime":2582.801,"body":"Okay, great."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2582.801,"endTime":2583.571,"body":"Yeah, let me do that right now."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2583.611,"endTime":2585.601,"body":"Oh, now it's in production, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2585.981,"endTime":2592.148,"body":"And so, I think, like, the"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2585.981,"endTime":2592.148,"body":"best teams capture that in a"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2592.148,"endTime":2593.598,"body":"way that's hard to represent."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2594.268,"endTime":2596.558,"body":"Now, that's really tricky because"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2594.268,"endTime":2596.558,"body":"I talk to my, I mean, I have"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2596.558,"endTime":2597.698,"body":"this conversation all the time."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2597.808,"endTime":2601.598,"body":"People are like, How would we know"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2597.808,"endTime":2601.598,"body":"from a metric perspective if we were"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2601.598,"endTime":2603.528,"body":"truly like a high performing team?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2603.868,"endTime":2605.108,"body":"And I'm like, I don't know."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2605.678,"endTime":2606.688,"body":"You'll feel it."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2607.167,"endTime":2611.118,"body":"Tell me if I'm wrong, but like"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2607.167,"endTime":2611.118,"body":"At some point, all the process"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2611.118,"endTime":2612.408,"body":"is creating overhead, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2612.408,"endTime":2615.228,"body":"Like process, like we said"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2612.408,"endTime":2615.228,"body":"this before, like processes"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2615.228,"endTime":2617.468,"body":"to me create a floor, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2617.488,"endTime":2621.452,"body":"It's like, how do we raise kind of"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2617.488,"endTime":2621.452,"body":"our lowest performance up to a point?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2622.212,"endTime":2627.712,"body":"But being phenomenal, I just don't think"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2622.212,"endTime":2627.712,"body":"you can process your way to phenomenal."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2628.324,"endTime":2631.284,"body":"I'll give you a few,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2628.324,"endTime":2631.284,"body":"uh, examples on the other side."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2631.284,"endTime":2631.944,"body":"So I agree with you."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2631.944,"endTime":2634.534,"body":"Let's say that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2631.944,"endTime":2634.534,"body":"you're a really elite team."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2634.544,"endTime":2638.784,"body":"You've worked together a long time,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2634.544,"endTime":2638.784,"body":"maybe you're in the office together"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2639.074,"endTime":2642.914,"body":"and you can easily turn around and"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2639.074,"endTime":2642.914,"body":"say, Hey Rob, I'm going to just"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2642.914,"endTime":2644.114,"body":"letting you know I'm going to do this."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2644.504,"endTime":2645.824,"body":"thing, you know, you have the context."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2645.824,"endTime":2650.084,"body":"Now, if I think about some"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2645.824,"endTime":2650.084,"body":"large enterprises, we're in"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2650.084,"endTime":2654.364,"body":"an era of distribution, we're"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2650.084,"endTime":2654.364,"body":"working all around the world."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2654.364,"endTime":2658.184,"body":"Some of my teammates might actually"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2654.364,"endTime":2658.184,"body":"not be sitting across, the way from"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2658.184,"endTime":2660.374,"body":"me, we may be working from home."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2660.374,"endTime":2662.684,"body":"We may be a new team"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2660.374,"endTime":2662.684,"body":"that just came together."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2663.209,"endTime":2668.749,"body":"And if we're working in this mode"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2663.209,"endTime":2668.749,"body":"where, you know, nothing is documented,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2668.759,"endTime":2671.319,"body":"tickets don't have an associated branch."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2671.589,"endTime":2675.499,"body":"I think the flip side can also happen"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2671.589,"endTime":2675.499,"body":"where you're actually producing"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2675.499,"endTime":2679.809,"body":"maybe terrible code that would,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2675.499,"endTime":2679.809,"body":"not, help the business in the long"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2679.809,"endTime":2681.559,"body":"run, cause bugs in production."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2681.894,"endTime":2684.414,"body":"So I think there's like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2681.894,"endTime":2684.414,"body":"a really fine, line here."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2684.934,"endTime":2688.784,"body":"the other thing that I would say is when"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2684.934,"endTime":2688.784,"body":"you told me about the innovation, like"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2688.784,"endTime":2693.074,"body":"with the hackathon, like why do we have to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2688.784,"endTime":2693.074,"body":"do a hackathon in order to do, innovation?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2693.084,"endTime":2696.264,"body":"Some of the companies that,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2693.084,"endTime":2696.264,"body":"I'm working with say, Hey, we"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2696.264,"endTime":2698.444,"body":"want to do, more innovation."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2698.574,"endTime":2700.974,"body":"I'll say, okay, well, how"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2698.574,"endTime":2700.974,"body":"much are you doing today?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2701.464,"endTime":2703.314,"body":"I'll say, I have no idea."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2703.354,"endTime":2704.454,"body":"I just need to do more."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2705.004,"endTime":2710.234,"body":"Well, a different situation can be, Hey,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2705.004,"endTime":2710.234,"body":"I actually do have a pretty good hygiene."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2710.589,"endTime":2714.409,"body":"I can tell you how much innovation"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2710.589,"endTime":2714.409,"body":"effort we're putting into, you"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2714.409,"endTime":2717.899,"body":"know, versus keeping the lights"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2714.409,"endTime":2717.899,"body":"on versus enhancing features."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2717.899,"endTime":2720.279,"body":"And maybe we can go back to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2717.899,"endTime":2720.279,"body":"the business and say, look,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2720.689,"endTime":2722.149,"body":"we're pretty organized here."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2722.239,"endTime":2724.169,"body":"We don't get any time"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2722.239,"endTime":2724.169,"body":"to do any innovation."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2724.169,"endTime":2725.829,"body":"We're doing it 1 percent of the time."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2726.079,"endTime":2728.099,"body":"Could we bake that into"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2726.079,"endTime":2728.099,"body":"our normal workflow?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2728.839,"endTime":2731.429,"body":"So I think there's kind of like, it"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2728.839,"endTime":2731.429,"body":"goes back to the beginning of the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2731.469,"endTime":2734.259,"body":"conversation that context matters a lot."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2734.529,"endTime":2736.699,"body":"So again, I'll"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2734.529,"endTime":2736.699,"body":"reiterate, I think this is"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2736.699,"endTime":2738.179,"body":"ultimately a scale problem, right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2738.189,"endTime":2742.939,"body":"Like my team or my specific team"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2738.189,"endTime":2742.939,"body":"runs from Sydney to Frankfurt."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2743.517,"endTime":2746.887,"body":"So me being in the West Coast is actually"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2743.517,"endTime":2746.887,"body":"nice because I can actually take meetings."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2747.297,"endTime":2750.307,"body":"Without being up in the middle of"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2747.297,"endTime":2750.307,"body":"the night like I had to do at my last"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2750.307,"endTime":2751.777,"body":"job where I had a team in Bangalore."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2752.198,"endTime":2754.018,"body":"Not that there's anything wrong"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2752.198,"endTime":2754.018,"body":"with Bangalore other than it's"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2754.018,"endTime":2754.968,"body":"twelve and a half hours away."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2755.248,"endTime":2756.478,"body":"There's just no good meeting time."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2756.97,"endTime":2761.81,"body":"So what I always tell my team is you"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2756.97,"endTime":2761.81,"body":"need as much process as helps you."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2762.81,"endTime":2765.508,"body":"If it's getting in your way, get"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2762.81,"endTime":2765.508,"body":"rid of it, And you're not allowed"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2765.508,"endTime":2768.038,"body":"to complain about it without saying"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2765.508,"endTime":2768.038,"body":"what you're going to do to fix it."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2768.758,"endTime":2768.978,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2768.978,"endTime":2770.248,"body":"And so I think that goes back."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2770.528,"endTime":2773.028,"body":"So it's a scale issue and"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2770.528,"endTime":2773.028,"body":"it's also a leadership issue."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2773.571,"endTime":2777.371,"body":"I think if you let your engineering"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2773.571,"endTime":2777.371,"body":"team, you know, bitch and moan about,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2777.371,"endTime":2780.691,"body":"pardon it, my, my French about, you"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2777.371,"endTime":2780.691,"body":"know, Oh, this is getting in our way."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2780.691,"endTime":2781.801,"body":"We can't get any work done."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2781.801,"endTime":2783.651,"body":"I'm like, that's not my problem."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2783.681,"endTime":2784.751,"body":"Get your work done."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2784.801,"endTime":2785.051,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2785.051,"endTime":2786.871,"body":"If this is getting your way, solve it."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2787.321,"endTime":2790.501,"body":"Or ignore it and then justify it"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2787.321,"endTime":2790.501,"body":"because now you've made your delivery."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2790.741,"endTime":2793.761,"body":"And so, don't have a culture of"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2790.741,"endTime":2793.761,"body":"learned helplessness around this,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2793.761,"endTime":2797.451,"body":"I think is the trap that often as"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2793.761,"endTime":2797.451,"body":"companies scale, you know, they fall"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2797.451,"endTime":2799.361,"body":"into that and that's just dark times."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2799.361,"endTime":2801.411,"body":"And then you have a lot of"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2799.361,"endTime":2801.411,"body":"work to do to unravel that."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2802.149,"endTime":2803.529,"body":"Or maybe even automate it."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2804.049,"endTime":2805.319,"body":"So, okay."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2805.319,"endTime":2807.539,"body":"A few, a few supporting insights here."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2808.219,"endTime":2810.099,"body":"If we're moving over to the next slide."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2810.374,"endTime":2815.574,"body":"Hopefully up top when the percentage of"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2810.374,"endTime":2815.574,"body":"branches not linked to issues is higher."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2815.814,"endTime":2819.494,"body":"That's the shorter the coding time"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2815.814,"endTime":2819.494,"body":"when the percentage of branches"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2819.504,"endTime":2822.394,"body":"not linked to issues is higher,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2819.504,"endTime":2822.394,"body":"the shorter the review time."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2822.394,"endTime":2825.694,"body":"I think that's a mutual"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2822.394,"endTime":2825.694,"body":"context type situation."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2826.254,"endTime":2829.014,"body":"And when the percentage of branches"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2826.254,"endTime":2829.014,"body":"not linked to issues is higher,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2829.024,"endTime":2830.634,"body":"the shorter the merge time."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2831.154,"endTime":2832.544,"body":"So this is our second insight."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2832.87,"endTime":2835.02,"body":"Move us forward to the third insight."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2835.162,"endTime":2836.162,"body":"Dora metrics."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2836.382,"endTime":2836.852,"body":"Do we have a key?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2837.393,"endTime":2844.083,"body":"Take away here, organizations with"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2837.393,"endTime":2844.083,"body":"a longer cycle time have a higher"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2844.253,"endTime":2847.063,"body":"rate of failures in production."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2848.183,"endTime":2852.923,"body":"Okay, so organizations with a longer"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2848.183,"endTime":2852.923,"body":"cycle time, the longer my cycle time,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2853.123,"endTime":2857.503,"body":"the more failures I have in production,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2853.123,"endTime":2857.503,"body":"you know what this one made me think of?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2858.653,"endTime":2859.253,"body":"CICD."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2860.323,"endTime":2861.463,"body":"Made me think of you, Rob."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2861.903,"endTime":2867.393,"body":"But before I thought of you, I thought"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2861.903,"endTime":2867.393,"body":"of my four year old daughter who's"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2867.603,"endTime":2872.763,"body":"learning to ride a bike, because I'm"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2867.603,"endTime":2872.763,"body":"observing this actually every day."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2873.443,"endTime":2878.853,"body":"As she's going slower, there's more"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2873.443,"endTime":2878.853,"body":"failures in production, like falling over."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2879.363,"endTime":2882.293,"body":"This is the metaphor that"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2879.363,"endTime":2882.293,"body":"I've heard lots of people use."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2883.093,"endTime":2888.593,"body":"But as she's starting to learn, be brave"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2883.093,"endTime":2888.593,"body":"and pedal faster, she's steadying out."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2888.893,"endTime":2891.003,"body":"So that's the first thing that"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2888.893,"endTime":2891.003,"body":"I thought about my daughter."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2891.003,"endTime":2892.683,"body":"And then I thought about you, Rob,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2892.713,"endTime":2892.933,"body":"yeah."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2893.363,"endTime":2897.183,"body":"So I'm going to pass it over"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2893.363,"endTime":2897.183,"body":"to you because I think you, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2897.223,"endTime":2900.493,"body":"your experience and, where you're working"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":2897.223,"endTime":2900.493,"body":"now, what do you think about that?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2900.503,"endTime":2900.823,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2900.823,"endTime":2904.913,"body":"I mean, this is, this is my life, but"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2900.823,"endTime":2904.913,"body":"I think it's everyone else's, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2904.913,"endTime":2906.893,"body":"Like the DO in DORA is for DevOps."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2906.893,"endTime":2912.023,"body":"Is it not like at some point"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2906.893,"endTime":2912.023,"body":"we realize that if something is"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2912.023,"endTime":2914.583,"body":"hard, you should do it more often."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2915.093,"endTime":2920.893,"body":"I will say before I got to CircleCI, uh,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2915.093,"endTime":2920.893,"body":"I started a company with the gentleman"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2920.893,"endTime":2926.189,"body":"who's now the CEO of CircleCI and, um, He"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2920.893,"endTime":2926.189,"body":"was actually like, he's a product person,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2926.189,"endTime":2927.669,"body":"by background, he was one who said."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2927.689,"endTime":2932.079,"body":"I think it was a 2011, you know, we should"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2927.689,"endTime":2932.079,"body":"do, we should do continuous deployment."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2932.509,"endTime":2934.549,"body":"I was like, what are you talking about?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2935.039,"endTime":2937.169,"body":"And he said, Oh, what we're going to"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2935.039,"endTime":2937.169,"body":"do is like, as soon as we write the"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2937.169,"endTime":2938.199,"body":"code, we're going to push in production."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2938.199,"endTime":2942.209,"body":"I'm like, nah, releasing is terrifying."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2942.869,"endTime":2947.839,"body":"Releasing requires three pots of"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2942.869,"endTime":2947.839,"body":"coffee and a weekend because you"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2947.839,"endTime":2951.049,"body":"got to put it in production and then"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2947.839,"endTime":2951.049,"body":"you got to clean up the mess, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2951.059,"endTime":2953.319,"body":"Like that's the life we"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2951.059,"endTime":2953.319,"body":"all lived prior to that."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2953.869,"endTime":2957.876,"body":"And I remember, I actually go through this"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2953.869,"endTime":2957.876,"body":"with, the kind of new hires at CircleCI."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2958.086,"endTime":2961.086,"body":"There's, if you go back and like"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2958.086,"endTime":2961.086,"body":"find the original blog post,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2961.086,"endTime":2962.806,"body":"does anyone remember, IMVU?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2963.046,"endTime":2964.266,"body":"How's that pronounced, by the way?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2964.746,"endTime":2965.256,"body":"Anyone know?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2965.916,"endTime":2967.056,"body":"I don't even"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":2965.916,"endTime":2967.056,"body":"know I ever saw it written."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2967.136,"endTime":2968.456,"body":"Oh, Eric Ries, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2968.456,"endTime":2972.076,"body":"So he wrote the Lean Startup,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2968.456,"endTime":2972.076,"body":"he started that company, IMD,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2972.076,"endTime":2972.796,"body":"IMVU, I don't know, whatever."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2972.886,"endTime":2973.356,"body":"Doesn't matter."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2973.856,"endTime":2977.726,"body":"They wrote a blog post"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2973.856,"endTime":2977.726,"body":"about continuous deployment."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2977.746,"endTime":2979.436,"body":"They're sort of like one"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2977.746,"endTime":2979.436,"body":"of the early practitioners."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2979.486,"endTime":2981.816,"body":"Etsy, like, I don't know if"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2979.486,"endTime":2981.816,"body":"anybody remembers this time."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2981.826,"endTime":2982.136,"body":"Anyway."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2982.739,"endTime":2985.719,"body":"They wrote a blog post and then he,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2982.739,"endTime":2985.719,"body":"the, the author of the blog post from"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2985.719,"endTime":2991.979,"body":"ILE wrote a follow up describing the"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2985.719,"endTime":2991.979,"body":"discussion on Hacker News, which is"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2991.979,"endTime":2995.819,"body":"where you should get all your feedback,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2991.979,"endTime":2995.819,"body":"by the way, about this concept."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2996.479,"endTime":3000.749,"body":"And the thread was like, this company"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":2996.479,"endTime":3000.749,"body":"obviously hates their customers."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3001.339,"endTime":3003.869,"body":"You are not going to be in"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3001.339,"endTime":3003.869,"body":"business a year from now."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3003.899,"endTime":3006.279,"body":"If you think that delivering continuously."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3006.684,"endTime":3008.634,"body":"Into production is a good idea."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3010.004,"endTime":3012.724,"body":"Fast forward is 2024 and"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3010.004,"endTime":3012.724,"body":"we're, it's the gold standard."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3012.734,"endTime":3013.024,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3013.194,"endTime":3013.524,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3013.674,"endTime":3014.664,"body":"So like, thanks."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3014.674,"endTime":3015.314,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3015.334,"endTime":3018.684,"body":"Also, if, if there are any visionaries"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3015.334,"endTime":3018.684,"body":"out there who are trying things"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3018.684,"endTime":3021.334,"body":"that no one's ever done before,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3018.684,"endTime":3021.334,"body":"like someone has to go do it, right."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3021.334,"endTime":3024.614,"body":"Someone has to go get the bloody nose"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3021.334,"endTime":3024.614,"body":"and be like, wow, that was terrifying."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3024.614,"endTime":3026.404,"body":"But we got through it and"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3024.614,"endTime":3026.404,"body":"now we're doing great stuff."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3026.484,"endTime":3029.454,"body":"This is like the most"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3026.484,"endTime":3029.454,"body":"unsurprising thing, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3029.454,"endTime":3029.484,"body":"Like."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3029.896,"endTime":3033.226,"body":"Small units of work, fresh context, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3033.226,"endTime":3036.046,"body":"I mean, did I, I used to"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3033.226,"endTime":3036.046,"body":"work in like telephony."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3036.176,"endTime":3039.156,"body":"Has anyone worked on like"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3036.176,"endTime":3039.156,"body":"a year long release cycles?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3039.616,"endTime":3041.106,"body":"Please tell me you're"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3039.616,"endTime":3041.106,"body":"not still doing that."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3041.106,"endTime":3043.295,"body":"But like someone says, Oh, this is broken."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3043.295,"endTime":3047.565,"body":"And you're like, wait, did I write, I"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3043.295,"endTime":3047.565,"body":"literally have no idea what I was thinking"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3047.565,"endTime":3051.305,"body":"when I wrote that 10 months ago, as"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3047.565,"endTime":3051.305,"body":"opposed to like, I wrote it this morning."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3051.305,"endTime":3052.985,"body":"I put it in production this afternoon."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3053.487,"endTime":3054.967,"body":"So first of all, super low risk."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3054.967,"endTime":3055.657,"body":"I can fix it."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3056.322,"endTime":3061.302,"body":"I'm putting out releases that are like 10"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3056.322,"endTime":3061.302,"body":"lines of code change or whatever, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3061.312,"endTime":3066.572,"body":"Tiny PR is going straight into"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3061.312,"endTime":3066.572,"body":"production instead of the last three"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3066.572,"endTime":3068.542,"body":"months of work going into production."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3068.552,"endTime":3070.382,"body":"Like just the risk is so high."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3070.562,"endTime":3074.602,"body":"And so when the risk gets high, you"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3070.562,"endTime":3074.602,"body":"slow down, you're like, well, we could"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3074.602,"endTime":3077.572,"body":"release this thing, but we got to"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3074.602,"endTime":3077.572,"body":"get a whole bunch of people together."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3077.812,"endTime":3079.302,"body":"We got to prep the war room."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3079.302,"endTime":3080.602,"body":"Cause there will be an outage."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3080.602,"endTime":3083.092,"body":"Like we don't know what outage"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3080.602,"endTime":3083.092,"body":"we just know it's going to break."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3083.332,"endTime":3085.182,"body":"Like, and then everyone's so cautious."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3085.712,"endTime":3087.302,"body":"And once you feel comfortable."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3087.717,"endTime":3089.497,"body":"That you can deploy whatever you've built."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3089.877,"endTime":3092.387,"body":"Then you just go and you"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3089.877,"endTime":3092.387,"body":"go and you go and you go."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3092.387,"endTime":3093.437,"body":"And it's so good."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3093.917,"endTime":3096.237,"body":"If you're not doing this right now,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3093.917,"endTime":3096.237,"body":"like, I don't know, come find me."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3096.427,"endTime":3098.607,"body":"You don't need to use my product,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3096.427,"endTime":3098.607,"body":"but my God, please do this."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3099.147,"endTime":3101.797,"body":"Well, so I have a"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3099.147,"endTime":3101.797,"body":"funny story about this company will"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3101.797,"endTime":3106.697,"body":"be, will remain unnamed, but we had"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3101.797,"endTime":3106.697,"body":"two major engineering teams and this"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3106.697,"endTime":3109.597,"body":"is when I really would have loved"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3106.697,"endTime":3109.597,"body":"the Dora metrics is predated the Dora"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3109.597,"endTime":3114.367,"body":"metrics and the one team was getting"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3109.597,"endTime":3114.367,"body":"into continuously, let's go fast."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3114.367,"endTime":3114.887,"body":"Let's go fast."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3114.897,"endTime":3118.877,"body":"But when they started, they went"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3114.897,"endTime":3118.877,"body":"super slow, as far as quality."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3119.187,"endTime":3121.147,"body":"They didn't have enough tests,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3119.187,"endTime":3121.147,"body":"they didn't have the systems,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3121.147,"endTime":3122.787,"body":"they didn't have the muscle."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3123.477,"endTime":3125.647,"body":"And the other team was"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3123.477,"endTime":3125.647,"body":"inheriting their changes."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3125.937,"endTime":3129.457,"body":"And we could never convince that other"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3125.937,"endTime":3129.457,"body":"team that even when the first team"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3129.457,"endTime":3133.977,"body":"was actually doing successful delivery"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3129.457,"endTime":3133.977,"body":"multiple times a day, anytime there was"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3133.977,"endTime":3135.137,"body":"a problem, it was that team's fault."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3135.667,"endTime":3138.267,"body":"You know, and that's when I was really"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3135.667,"endTime":3138.267,"body":"missing, like, we need a platform that"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3138.267,"endTime":3140.597,"body":"tells us what the, you know, to prove."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3140.607,"endTime":3142.377,"body":"Like, no, it's you, it's not them."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3142.597,"endTime":3143.877,"body":"Anyway, you want to keep going."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3144.057,"endTime":3146.812,"body":"No, I know where you could"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3144.057,"endTime":3146.812,"body":"find one, but Yeah, you keep going."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3147.434,"endTime":3150.184,"body":"It's just, it was"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3147.434,"endTime":3150.184,"body":"a very frustrating experience."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3150.943,"endTime":3155.304,"body":"Yeah, you know, I think the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3150.943,"endTime":3155.304,"body":"other thing, to add on to what both of you"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3155.354,"endTime":3159.594,"body":"are saying, especially Rob, is You know,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3155.354,"endTime":3159.594,"body":"if you have code that's sitting there"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3159.604,"endTime":3161.964,"body":"for a long time, it's going to degrade."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3162.764,"endTime":3168.014,"body":"If you, are not confident to get"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3162.764,"endTime":3168.014,"body":"code out in small chunks, it probably"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3168.014,"endTime":3171.954,"body":"means that you don't have the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3168.014,"endTime":3171.954,"body":"right testing practices, automation"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3171.954,"endTime":3177.454,"body":"practices, uh, feature flag type"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3171.954,"endTime":3177.454,"body":"situation, system architecture."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3177.784,"endTime":3182.084,"body":"So I think the other context thing"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3177.784,"endTime":3182.084,"body":"here is, here's an indicator,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3182.124,"endTime":3186.284,"body":"if you are able to have small"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3182.124,"endTime":3186.284,"body":"releases that go out all the time."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3186.679,"endTime":3190.969,"body":"you probably have the full infrastructure"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3186.679,"endTime":3190.969,"body":"and ecosystem in place to do so."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3190.969,"endTime":3195.139,"body":"And therefore, you're going to be in a"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3190.969,"endTime":3195.139,"body":"much better situation in terms of quality."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3195.65,"endTime":3198.19,"body":"The one thing that I want to"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3195.65,"endTime":3198.19,"body":"add, sorry, I'm going to drag this out,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3198.19,"endTime":3203.27,"body":"but this is my life, is the superpower"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3198.19,"endTime":3203.27,"body":"of this is not the code quality."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3204.12,"endTime":3207.61,"body":"Like, yes, you recover from incidents,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3204.12,"endTime":3207.61,"body":"you take out the risk, but the thing"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3207.61,"endTime":3213.12,"body":"that you're actually de risking"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3207.61,"endTime":3213.12,"body":"when you deliver all day, every day,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3213.71,"endTime":3215.6,"body":"is not the quality of your code."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3215.819,"endTime":3216.759,"body":"It's the fact."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3217.115,"endTime":3220.725,"body":"That you are undoubtedly, I don't"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3217.115,"endTime":3220.725,"body":"care what business you're in."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3220.725,"endTime":3223.055,"body":"I don't care how good"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3220.725,"endTime":3223.055,"body":"your product managers are."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3223.275,"endTime":3225.205,"body":"You are building the"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3223.275,"endTime":3225.205,"body":"wrong thing right now."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3226.365,"endTime":3230.874,"body":"And the longer you go on the wrong"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3226.365,"endTime":3230.874,"body":"path, building the wrong thing, the"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3230.874,"endTime":3235.665,"body":"more money you are wasting, not building"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3230.874,"endTime":3235.665,"body":"the right thing for your customers."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3235.965,"endTime":3239.435,"body":"And if you are shipping"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3235.965,"endTime":3239.435,"body":"three, four times a day."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3239.9,"endTime":3243.28,"body":"And getting customer feedback"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3239.9,"endTime":3243.28,"body":"three, four times a day."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3243.75,"endTime":3244.78,"body":"We change this thing."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3244.79,"endTime":3245.77,"body":"We change this thing."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3245.94,"endTime":3248.15,"body":"No one gives a crap about"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3245.94,"endTime":3248.15,"body":"this thing we just built."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3248.17,"endTime":3249.26,"body":"Let's take it back out."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3249.41,"endTime":3250.87,"body":"People familiar with painted doors?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3251.019,"endTime":3255.17,"body":"Like, we put up the button that doesn't"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3251.019,"endTime":3255.17,"body":"even do anything and no one clicked on it."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3255.21,"endTime":3256.459,"body":"You know what we should not do?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3256.789,"endTime":3258.609,"body":"Build the feature behind that button."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3259.22,"endTime":3262.45,"body":"But so many teams spend six"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3259.22,"endTime":3262.45,"body":"months building the feature."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3263.11,"endTime":3264.12,"body":"To put it out."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3264.28,"endTime":3267.43,"body":"And the last thing they do is"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3264.28,"endTime":3267.43,"body":"put up the button to find out"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3267.43,"endTime":3268.87,"body":"that nobody clicks on the button."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3269.13,"endTime":3272.67,"body":"That's six months of engineering effort"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3269.13,"endTime":3272.67,"body":"that you could have put into something"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3272.67,"endTime":3274.2,"body":"that your customers care about."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3274.72,"endTime":3277.919,"body":"And so, yes, you should absolutely"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3274.72,"endTime":3277.919,"body":"reduce the risk of your changes."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3277.919,"endTime":3281.939,"body":"But what you're really doing is"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3277.919,"endTime":3281.939,"body":"getting yourself turning towards"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3281.94,"endTime":3285.66,"body":"the path of what your customers"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3281.94,"endTime":3285.66,"body":"care about as quickly as possible."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3286.05,"endTime":3288.71,"body":"And that's where this"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3286.05,"endTime":3288.71,"body":"really, like, this is just."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3289.145,"endTime":3292.185,"body":"Your cycle time will be lower, but it's"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3289.145,"endTime":3292.185,"body":"not just that your cycle time is lower,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3292.195,"endTime":3296.105,"body":"it's that everything you deliver is high"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3292.195,"endTime":3296.105,"body":"value to your customers because you're"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3296.105,"endTime":3298.855,"body":"building the right thing, and that is"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3296.105,"endTime":3298.855,"body":"when your business is going to take off."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3299.165,"endTime":3301.804,"body":"Which is the one thing"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3299.165,"endTime":3301.804,"body":"about Agile I really like, right, which"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3301.804,"endTime":3303.515,"body":"is early to customers and iterate."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3303.945,"endTime":3304.155,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3304.155,"endTime":3307.915,"body":"Which was the whole DevOps thing"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3304.155,"endTime":3307.915,"body":"was invented to, how do you do that?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3308.385,"endTime":3308.685,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3308.735,"endTime":3311.675,"body":"And so it's like, Oh,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3308.735,"endTime":3311.675,"body":"punchline that there it is."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3311.845,"endTime":3313.315,"body":"DevOps itself is kind of the button."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3313.805,"endTime":3315.314,"body":"And then, then we broke other things."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3315.314,"endTime":3317.575,"body":"We said, Oh, we have DevOps"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3315.314,"endTime":3317.575,"body":"now, so we don't need QA teams."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3318.185,"endTime":3319.954,"body":"There's, there I threw that hot take down."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3320.845,"endTime":3321.224,"body":"That company."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3321.675,"endTime":3322.615,"body":"That's a whole hour."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3322.675,"endTime":3322.875,"body":"That's"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3322.885,"endTime":3323.405,"body":"for dessert."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3323.665,"endTime":3323.845,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3323.845,"endTime":3324.145,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3324.145,"endTime":3324.595,"body":"Perfect."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3324.595,"endTime":3326.885,"body":"Let me, let, let me push us forward here."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3327.405,"endTime":3330.315,"body":"A few supporting, insights"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3327.405,"endTime":3330.315,"body":"on the next slide."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3330.385,"endTime":3333.695,"body":"Just what we've already been saying,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3330.385,"endTime":3333.695,"body":"the longer the cycle time, the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3333.695,"endTime":3335.405,"body":"higher the change failure rate."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3335.415,"endTime":3336.395,"body":"There's correlation there."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3336.395,"endTime":3339.395,"body":"The longer the deploy time,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3336.395,"endTime":3339.395,"body":"the higher the change failure,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3339.445,"endTime":3340.695,"body":"failure rate correlation there."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3340.695,"endTime":3341.305,"body":"I think it makes."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3341.946,"endTime":3343.896,"body":"Insight number four."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3344.086,"endTime":3347.806,"body":"Well, we talked about this, a little"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3344.086,"endTime":3347.806,"body":"bit already in the beginning, but."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3348.621,"endTime":3355.441,"body":"A higher pull request maturity"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3348.621,"endTime":3355.441,"body":"ratio correlates a higher velocity."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3356.101,"endTime":3360.131,"body":"So a higher maturity ratio"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3356.101,"endTime":3360.131,"body":"correlates with higher velocity."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3360.511,"endTime":3362.231,"body":"Talked about it a little"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3360.511,"endTime":3362.231,"body":"bit in the beginning."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3362.231,"endTime":3363.301,"body":"Do we have more to add here?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3363.709,"endTime":3367.899,"body":"I mean, so we say that a,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3363.709,"endTime":3367.899,"body":"you know, highly mature PRs go quickly."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3368.408,"endTime":3368.918,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3368.978,"endTime":3369.288,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3369.898,"endTime":3372.278,"body":"I struggle with this one to,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3369.898,"endTime":3372.278,"body":"to be honest, because we'll go"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3372.278,"endTime":3373.428,"body":"back to the hackathon example."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3373.428,"endTime":3376.458,"body":"Yes, if we have no process, no Jira"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3373.428,"endTime":3376.458,"body":"tickets, no product planning, no"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3376.458,"endTime":3378.038,"body":"PRQs, whatever, you can move fast."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3378.078,"endTime":3380.848,"body":"You can move really fast, but"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3378.078,"endTime":3380.848,"body":"you're producing unusable garbage"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3380.848,"endTime":3382.158,"body":"from a business perspective."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3382.958,"endTime":3386.028,"body":"that's sort of a harsh take, but you know,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3382.958,"endTime":3386.028,"body":"that's an extreme example, but yes, I"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3386.028,"endTime":3390.778,"body":"think that if all of those other things"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3386.028,"endTime":3390.778,"body":"have lined up, right, that the culture is"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3390.808,"endTime":3395.928,"body":"good, the planning is good, the modularity"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3390.808,"endTime":3395.928,"body":"of your system architecture is sufficient."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3396.408,"endTime":3399.468,"body":"Et cetera, et cetera, et"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3396.408,"endTime":3399.468,"body":"cetera, then absolutely right."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3399.468,"endTime":3403.978,"body":"But I think the quality bar has to be"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3399.468,"endTime":3403.978,"body":"correlated to the previous thing, which"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3403.978,"endTime":3405.818,"body":"is what's your failure rate, right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3406.121,"endTime":3407.261,"body":"and then your resolution rate."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3407.581,"endTime":3409.711,"body":"So I feel like I'm"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3407.581,"endTime":3409.711,"body":"in the right room to make a"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3409.711,"endTime":3411.301,"body":"request for next year's report."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3411.757,"endTime":3417.437,"body":"I'd like, I'd like to see this over"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3411.757,"endTime":3417.437,"body":"time because velocity over time"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3417.687,"endTime":3422.332,"body":"is actually, I mean, lowercase L"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3417.687,"endTime":3422.332,"body":"velocity, not like story points."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3422.332,"endTime":3423.672,"body":"I couldn't even remember what"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3422.332,"endTime":3423.672,"body":"they were called for a second,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3423.672,"endTime":3424.342,"body":"their story points, whatever."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3424.342,"endTime":3430.092,"body":"But like, how fast am I delivering"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3424.342,"endTime":3430.092,"body":"business value and how are my"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3430.092,"endTime":3434.192,"body":"approaches to software engineering"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3430.092,"endTime":3434.192,"body":"impacting that over time?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3434.192,"endTime":3437.302,"body":"Because I think one of the most common"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3434.192,"endTime":3437.302,"body":"things that happens, you know, we take"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3437.302,"endTime":3442.982,"body":"your hackathon example is we're fast"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3437.302,"endTime":3442.982,"body":"at the beginning, and then we just."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3443.882,"endTime":3449.322,"body":"Like, it degrades, right, because we"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3443.882,"endTime":3449.322,"body":"didn't have the maturity, the process,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3449.322,"endTime":3453.032,"body":"whatever that is, and it would be"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3449.322,"endTime":3453.032,"body":"really interesting to see some of"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3453.032,"endTime":3456.602,"body":"these metrics, how they evolved over"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3453.032,"endTime":3456.602,"body":"the course of like 12, 24 months,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3457.162,"endTime":3458.012,"body":"because you have all the data."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3458.012,"endTime":3458.882,"body":"So that's awesome."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3459.032,"endTime":3461.832,"body":"because I think that would"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3459.032,"endTime":3461.832,"body":"be really telling, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3461.832,"endTime":3465.232,"body":"Like what I care about as an engineering"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3461.832,"endTime":3465.232,"body":"leader is not how fast did you move"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3465.232,"endTime":3467.082,"body":"this week or this month or this quarter."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3467.477,"endTime":3472.247,"body":"But can we sustain that for an"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3467.477,"endTime":3472.247,"body":"extended period and consistently"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3472.247,"endTime":3474.247,"body":"predictably deliver value?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3474.807,"endTime":3477.667,"body":"and all the times we're like,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3474.807,"endTime":3477.667,"body":"we're really fast right now."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3478.017,"endTime":3482.257,"body":"We know we're like, gonna hate"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3478.017,"endTime":3482.257,"body":"ourselves in about six months"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3482.287,"endTime":3483.647,"body":"for whatever it was that we did."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3484.097,"endTime":3485.747,"body":"Yeah, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3484.097,"endTime":3485.747,"body":"I think, you know, what's the"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3485.747,"endTime":3491.047,"body":"definition of, it's quality, time,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3485.747,"endTime":3491.047,"body":"feature set, pick any two, right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3491.497,"endTime":3495.417,"body":"Because what do we know for a"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3491.497,"endTime":3495.417,"body":"project that has a certain longevity?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3495.702,"endTime":3498.312,"body":"Yeah, you get to the point where it's"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3495.702,"endTime":3498.312,"body":"like, okay, it's basically there."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3498.312,"endTime":3500.822,"body":"And then what you want to actually"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3498.312,"endTime":3500.822,"body":"see is the quality correlates"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3500.822,"endTime":3502.318,"body":"to the churn rate, right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3502.318,"endTime":3506.478,"body":"So you know that the successful, mostly"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3502.318,"endTime":3506.478,"body":"complete project, the pull request"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3506.478,"endTime":3509.078,"body":"maturity might be good, but the velocity"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3506.478,"endTime":3509.078,"body":"should just go through the floor"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3509.108,"endTime":3510.318,"body":"because you're not touching it anymore."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3510.538,"endTime":3512.928,"body":"You're moving on to the next thing, the"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3510.538,"endTime":3512.928,"body":"thing that's going to make you money a"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3512.928,"endTime":3514.328,"body":"year from now or six months from now."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3514.993,"endTime":3515.223,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3515.223,"endTime":3518.863,"body":"So that I think there's some really"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3515.223,"endTime":3518.863,"body":"interesting ways and I plus one, I"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3518.863,"endTime":3520.133,"body":"would love to see this over time."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3520.673,"endTime":3520.913,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3520.913,"endTime":3524.28,"body":"So, a new, uh, metric"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3520.913,"endTime":3524.28,"body":"that was added, this year."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3524.28,"endTime":3527.24,"body":"So I think, a fifth generation"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3524.28,"endTime":3527.24,"body":"will be even better here."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3527.25,"endTime":3531.357,"body":"I'm going to push us forward Here's"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3527.25,"endTime":3531.357,"body":"the last, Insight that we have,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3531.357,"endTime":3533.167,"body":"and it's around predictability."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3533.777,"endTime":3537.457,"body":"So the key takeaway is"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3533.777,"endTime":3537.457,"body":"around capacity, accuracy."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3537.647,"endTime":3541.457,"body":"So what it's saying here is over"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3537.647,"endTime":3541.457,"body":"half of engineering projects"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3541.697,"endTime":3543.917,"body":"under commit against their goal."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3544.354,"endTime":3549.474,"body":"And less than 25 percent of projects"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3544.354,"endTime":3549.474,"body":"fell within the ideal range."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3549.494,"endTime":3554.094,"body":"So when we're thinking about under"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3549.494,"endTime":3554.094,"body":"committing, what it really means is."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3554.649,"endTime":3560.289,"body":"Hey, I can really deliver this amount of"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3554.649,"endTime":3560.289,"body":"story points, but I'm only going to say"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3560.289,"endTime":3565.029,"body":"that I can deliver maybe 80 percent of"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3560.289,"endTime":3565.029,"body":"them, but I'm under promising so that I"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3565.029,"endTime":3571.019,"body":"can over deliver in order to hit my, maybe"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3565.029,"endTime":3571.019,"body":"my predictability goal or to be on time."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3571.705,"endTime":3572.725,"body":"This one blew my mind."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3572.725,"endTime":3576.815,"body":"I have to say, because in, I've been"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3572.725,"endTime":3576.815,"body":"doing this for 30 years, every engineer,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3577.115,"endTime":3578.795,"body":"I can't think of an engineer that did not."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3579.22,"endTime":3579.79,"body":"Overcommit."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3580.48,"endTime":3581.64,"body":"I cannot think of one."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3581.92,"endTime":3584.62,"body":"In fact, I have this system where"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3581.92,"endTime":3584.62,"body":"depending on who you are, you get"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3584.62,"endTime":3587.95,"body":"a multiplier, like no matter what"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3584.62,"endTime":3587.95,"body":"you say, I'm going to multiply"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3587.95,"endTime":3589.63,"body":"it by three because I just know."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3590.47,"endTime":3590.59,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3590.59,"endTime":3592.1,"body":"this one"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3590.59,"endTime":3592.1,"body":"is fascinating to me."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3592.1,"endTime":3592.934,"body":"I don't know your experience."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3592.934,"endTime":3593.36,"body":"You have"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3593.36,"endTime":3595.065,"body":"a Monte Carlo"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3593.36,"endTime":3595.065,"body":"simulation for all your engineers."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3596.025,"endTime":3599.105,"body":"Um, well, two, two things that"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3596.025,"endTime":3599.105,"body":"I think are interesting here, a"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3599.105,"endTime":3600.345,"body":"hundred percent agree with that."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3600.345,"endTime":3603.745,"body":"I'm just like, wait, there are"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3600.345,"endTime":3603.745,"body":"engineers who actually undercommit."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3603.845,"endTime":3604.585,"body":"That's cool."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3604.975,"endTime":3606.275,"body":"they're"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3604.975,"endTime":3606.275,"body":"very smart, by the way."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3606.275,"endTime":3606.655,"body":"I agree"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3606.815,"endTime":3607.155,"body":"with that."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3607.265,"endTime":3611.195,"body":"So one, one thing that I read between the"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3607.265,"endTime":3611.195,"body":"last time we talked about this and now."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3612.575,"endTime":3615.195,"body":"Well, I don't know if people are"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3612.575,"endTime":3615.195,"body":"familiar with Kent Beck, I love"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3615.265,"endTime":3618.585,"body":"his latest book, Tidy First, but"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3615.265,"endTime":3618.585,"body":"I started following his sub stack."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3619.035,"endTime":3622.025,"body":"He published this thing"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3619.035,"endTime":3622.025,"body":"called, Forest in the Desert."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3622.035,"endTime":3622.915,"body":"Did anybody read this?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3623.145,"endTime":3627.855,"body":"So he talks about different kinds of"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3623.145,"endTime":3627.855,"body":"projects, and, uh, the feeling, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3627.855,"endTime":3630.055,"body":"Again, kind of stepping away from"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3627.855,"endTime":3630.055,"body":"the metric, but what it feels like."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3630.345,"endTime":3634.355,"body":"And in his forest model, he has roots, and"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3630.345,"endTime":3634.355,"body":"he presented this with someone else, and"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3634.355,"endTime":3637.935,"body":"I forget who it was, and I apologize, but,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3634.355,"endTime":3637.935,"body":"And one of the roots are kind of like the"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3637.955,"endTime":3643.785,"body":"core things that have to be true in order"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3637.955,"endTime":3643.785,"body":"to get to a great project or a great team"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3643.785,"endTime":3644.675,"body":"or however you want to think about it."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3645.065,"endTime":3649.385,"body":"And one of the things in his list of"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3645.065,"endTime":3649.385,"body":"roots was that you never commit to more"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3649.385,"endTime":3651.335,"body":"than 50 percent of what you can get done."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3651.699,"endTime":3656.119,"body":"And that's, that's, that's like, so"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3651.699,"endTime":3656.119,"body":"that's really interesting in this metric."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3656.329,"endTime":3660.869,"body":"And his whole point is you set"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3656.329,"endTime":3660.869,"body":"yourself up, you, put the time and"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3660.869,"endTime":3662.489,"body":"place to do things well, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3662.519,"endTime":3664.139,"body":"Again, to that sustained velocity."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3664.619,"endTime":3666.579,"body":"And then he talks about"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3664.619,"endTime":3666.579,"body":"the feeling, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3666.579,"endTime":3668.059,"body":"What does it feel like then to be there?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3668.069,"endTime":3671.009,"body":"The feeling is like someone shows up"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3668.069,"endTime":3671.009,"body":"and says, we're going to do a thing."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3671.009,"endTime":3672.209,"body":"We know exactly how to do it."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3672.649,"endTime":3673.919,"body":"We know exactly where it goes."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3674.399,"endTime":3676.499,"body":"We know what it would take to do it."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3676.509,"endTime":3679.389,"body":"Like all of those things that it"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3676.509,"endTime":3679.389,"body":"just feels like in so many projects,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3679.439,"endTime":3681.289,"body":"you're like, I have no idea."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3681.289,"endTime":3684.239,"body":"Let's just pick a number and pretend we"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3681.289,"endTime":3684.239,"body":"could get it done in that amount of time."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3684.729,"endTime":3688.765,"body":"Um, and so I think leaving space"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3684.729,"endTime":3688.765,"body":"kind of caught it to your point."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3688.775,"endTime":3690.995,"body":"Like everyone's overcommitted, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3691.015,"endTime":3694.155,"body":"Everyone underestimates what it"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3691.015,"endTime":3694.155,"body":"really takes to get something done."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3695.12,"endTime":3697.87,"body":"And then they get pushed up against the"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3695.12,"endTime":3697.87,"body":"wall, and they're like, well, we said"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3697.87,"endTime":3702.15,"body":"we'd get this stuff done, and maybe if"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3697.87,"endTime":3702.15,"body":"we just cut some corners, then we will"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3702.15,"endTime":3706.49,"body":"get it done, so now they got it done,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3702.15,"endTime":3706.49,"body":"and the next time, their estimate is"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3706.49,"endTime":3710.04,"body":"even worse, because they just made the"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3706.49,"endTime":3710.04,"body":"system harder to work on, and there's"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3710.04,"endTime":3712.08,"body":"this kind of negative feedback loop,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3712.49,"endTime":3718.2,"body":"I just think we, as engineers, tend to"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3712.49,"endTime":3718.2,"body":"put ourselves, and as a leader, I'll"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3718.2,"endTime":3721.33,"body":"say it's probably my fault, I don't know"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3718.2,"endTime":3721.33,"body":"why yet, but it probably is, but like,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3721.74,"endTime":3725.07,"body":"put ourselves in that situation where"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3721.74,"endTime":3725.07,"body":"we believe something is achievable, we"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3725.07,"endTime":3728.71,"body":"feel we're smart, we know how to get"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3725.07,"endTime":3728.71,"body":"stuff done, and then we create that"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3728.72,"endTime":3731.27,"body":"negative scenario where we're like,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3728.72,"endTime":3731.27,"body":"well, I said I could get it done, so"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3731.27,"endTime":3736.41,"body":"now I am gonna get it done, by like,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3731.27,"endTime":3736.41,"body":"not sleeping, and cutting corners, and"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3736.41,"endTime":3738.94,"body":"all these kinds of things, and that"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3736.41,"endTime":3738.94,"body":"would make it worse for the next round,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3738.94,"endTime":3741.17,"body":"and the next round, and the next round,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3738.94,"endTime":3741.17,"body":"whereas if you leave yourself the"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3741.17,"endTime":3742.32,"body":"space, I think that you can So, yeah."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3742.32,"endTime":3742.33,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3742.99,"endTime":3746.054,"body":"and then the other thing that I was"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3742.99,"endTime":3746.054,"body":"going to say about this, I can't"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3746.054,"endTime":3749.244,"body":"remember, are people familiar with Marty"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3746.054,"endTime":3749.244,"body":"Kagan, Silicon Valley product group?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3749.374,"endTime":3752.124,"body":"Anyway, it's got like a"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3749.374,"endTime":3752.124,"body":"very large number of books."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3752.124,"endTime":3754.364,"body":"I don't know how he also does his"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3752.124,"endTime":3754.364,"body":"job and writes all these books, but,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3756.824,"endTime":3760.854,"body":"he reads his own audio books"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3756.824,"endTime":3760.854,"body":"to props to Marty Kagan."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3760.854,"endTime":3766.014,"body":"Anyway, he talks about"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3760.854,"endTime":3766.014,"body":"predictability versus innovation."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3767.024,"endTime":3769.524,"body":"just since we talked about"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3767.024,"endTime":3769.524,"body":"innovation earlier and like that."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3770.034,"endTime":3775.684,"body":"That many R\u0026 D leaders are focused"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3770.034,"endTime":3775.684,"body":"on predictability as the most"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3775.684,"endTime":3779.394,"body":"important thing, but, I can't"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3775.684,"endTime":3779.394,"body":"remember who he's quoting when he"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3779.394,"endTime":3783.274,"body":"says like 100 percent predictability"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3779.394,"endTime":3783.274,"body":"is 0 percent innovation, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3783.274,"endTime":3787.444,"body":"Like when we are perfect at understanding"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3783.274,"endTime":3787.444,"body":"how long everything is going to take,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3787.974,"endTime":3790.304,"body":"that means we have not taking any risks."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3790.734,"endTime":3793.154,"body":"We're not trying anything"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3790.734,"endTime":3793.154,"body":"novel or anything new."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3793.504,"endTime":3797.444,"body":"And so, you know, I think we need"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3793.504,"endTime":3797.444,"body":"to, predictability tells you a lot."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3797.869,"endTime":3800.399,"body":"About whether you understand your"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3797.869,"endTime":3800.399,"body":"system, whether you're capable of doing"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3800.399,"endTime":3801.789,"body":"the thing that you need to get done."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3802.359,"endTime":3806.089,"body":"But if all you're doing is just, we"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3802.359,"endTime":3806.089,"body":"ticketed out the work and we delivered"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3806.089,"endTime":3807.759,"body":"the work exactly as was planned."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3808.354,"endTime":3812.494,"body":"Nobody's pushing the envelope, no"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3808.354,"endTime":3812.494,"body":"one's taking risk, no one's innovating."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3812.494,"endTime":3814.534,"body":"And as a business, that's not"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":3812.494,"endTime":3814.534,"body":"going to be a good outcome."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3814.544,"endTime":3817.174,"body":"One thing that I will say,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3814.544,"endTime":3817.174,"body":"and when you look at the report, you"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3817.174,"endTime":3818.604,"body":"know, there's two different metrics here."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3818.604,"endTime":3820.584,"body":"One of this is capacity accuracy."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3820.584,"endTime":3822.804,"body":"There's another one"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3820.584,"endTime":3822.804,"body":"that's planning accuracy."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3822.824,"endTime":3827.794,"body":"So when you think about capacity accuracy,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3822.824,"endTime":3827.794,"body":"it's kind of like the know thyself as"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3827.794,"endTime":3831.984,"body":"a team, which means like know how much"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3827.794,"endTime":3831.984,"body":"work you can get done in a sprint."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3832.214,"endTime":3834.654,"body":"Now that's different"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3832.214,"endTime":3834.654,"body":"than planning accuracy."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3835.434,"endTime":3837.614,"body":"Planning accuracy is more so saying."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3838.014,"endTime":3842.034,"body":"I'm coming to you, Rob and saying,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3838.014,"endTime":3842.034,"body":"Hey, I think I can get this"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3842.044,"endTime":3844.684,"body":"feature delivered on this date."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3845.314,"endTime":3848.514,"body":"and whether I, or let's say"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3845.314,"endTime":3848.514,"body":"within a sprint, I think I'm going"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3848.514,"endTime":3851.294,"body":"to do these exact 10 stories."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3851.534,"endTime":3856.234,"body":"did I actually do those exact 10"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3851.534,"endTime":3856.234,"body":"stories or did I have bugs come"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3856.234,"endTime":3859.714,"body":"in from production or actually"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3856.234,"endTime":3859.714,"body":"wanted to do some innovation stuff?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3860.014,"endTime":3863.614,"body":"And I ended up doing 10 things,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3860.014,"endTime":3863.614,"body":"but it wasn't what I actually"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3863.904,"endTime":3865.244,"body":"said I was going to do."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3865.454,"endTime":3868.414,"body":"So just a little bit"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3865.454,"endTime":3868.414,"body":"of a distinction there."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3868.824,"endTime":3871.834,"body":"but yeah, all in the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3868.824,"endTime":3871.834,"body":"report, interesting stuff."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3872.29,"endTime":3872.76,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3873.29,"endTime":3875.67,"body":"So just the, a few takeaways here."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3875.67,"endTime":3878.475,"body":"So all of you do have,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3875.67,"endTime":3878.475,"body":"the benchmarks report."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3878.995,"endTime":3883.815,"body":"highly recommend you check it out, highly"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3878.995,"endTime":3883.815,"body":"recommend that, you know, for your own,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3883.925,"endTime":3889.115,"body":"own organization, what your data points"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3883.925,"endTime":3889.115,"body":"are, how you, uh, match up against"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3889.115,"endTime":3892.325,"body":"the benchmark so that you can have the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3889.115,"endTime":3892.325,"body":"right conversation, kind of like how"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3892.325,"endTime":3895.025,"body":"we did up here live, with your teams."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3895.525,"endTime":3900.585,"body":"And I wanted to give a big, round of"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3895.525,"endTime":3900.585,"body":"applause and thank you to Tara and"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3900.585,"endTime":3902.825,"body":"Rob, for being our panelists today."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":3902.865,"endTime":3903.435,"body":"Great job."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3910.695,"endTime":3912.035,"body":"So, hello everyone."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3912.035,"endTime":3913.005,"body":"I'm Ben Lloyd Pearson."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3913.025,"endTime":3915.685,"body":"I'm one of the hosts of Dev"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3913.025,"endTime":3915.685,"body":"Interrupted, and I'll be emceeing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3915.685,"endTime":3916.705,"body":"some of the event tonight."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3916.755,"endTime":3919.035,"body":"we've got a few minutes"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3916.755,"endTime":3919.035,"body":"before dinner is ready."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3919.035,"endTime":3922.275,"body":"We have time, I think,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3919.035,"endTime":3922.275,"body":"for three questions."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3922.695,"endTime":3926.015,"body":"So if you have a question, we"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3922.695,"endTime":3926.015,"body":"have a microphone that Andrew"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3926.015,"endTime":3927.165,"body":"will bring around to you."},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 2","startTime":3928.33,"endTime":3931.24,"body":"love the example"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 2","startTime":3928.33,"endTime":3931.24,"body":"of the hackathon and project management"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 2","startTime":3931.24,"endTime":3936.37,"body":"and correlation over there, but a"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 2","startTime":3931.24,"endTime":3936.37,"body":"factor how many of these hackathon"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 2","startTime":3936.38,"endTime":3942.51,"body":"projects actually become features is"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 2","startTime":3936.38,"endTime":3942.51,"body":"a question because quality, a clear"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 2","startTime":3942.59,"endTime":3946.13,"body":"understanding of the intent, there's"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 2","startTime":3942.59,"endTime":3946.13,"body":"a lot more that happens, right?"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 2","startTime":3946.14,"endTime":3950.85,"body":"For the product side, speed is, is"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 2","startTime":3946.14,"endTime":3950.85,"body":"the primary factor in the hackathon."},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 2","startTime":3951.58,"endTime":3954.79,"body":"Uh, but there are other things that"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 2","startTime":3951.58,"endTime":3954.79,"body":"that make a product market fit."},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 2","startTime":3954.82,"endTime":3956.91,"body":"So any thoughts on that?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3957.681,"endTime":3958.421,"body":"I certainly do."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3958.441,"endTime":3961.101,"body":"I've seen a bunch of different"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3958.441,"endTime":3961.101,"body":"companies do hackathons and I think"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3961.101,"endTime":3965.031,"body":"the ones that are the most successful"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3961.101,"endTime":3965.031,"body":"are the ones where, the senior"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3965.031,"endTime":3968.821,"body":"leadership in engineering and also"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3965.031,"endTime":3968.821,"body":"the product team is heavily involved"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3968.831,"endTime":3971.591,"body":"in either seeding the themes, right."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3971.621,"endTime":3975.021,"body":"And then committing to identifying"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3971.621,"endTime":3975.021,"body":"and then executing and making"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3975.021,"endTime":3979.401,"body":"space for execution that creates"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3975.021,"endTime":3979.401,"body":"a really positive feedback loop."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3979.691,"endTime":3980.681,"body":"Like here is a customer problem."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3980.691,"endTime":3984.031,"body":"We don't have a good solution for,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3980.691,"endTime":3984.031,"body":"or here's a set of challenges and"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3984.031,"endTime":3986.451,"body":"then the engineering team sees, Oh,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3984.031,"endTime":3986.451,"body":"we actually took a couple of those"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3986.451,"endTime":3988.151,"body":"and turn those into actual features."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3988.361,"endTime":3990.991,"body":"We invest in that time and"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3988.361,"endTime":3990.991,"body":"it was an enormous success."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3991.421,"endTime":3994.461,"body":"I think where you don't see this success"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3991.421,"endTime":3994.461,"body":"where it's, you know, very kind of"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3994.461,"endTime":3997.941,"body":"low key, it's mostly a reason to hang"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3994.461,"endTime":3997.941,"body":"out and, you know, code from the bean"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3997.941,"endTime":3999.591,"body":"bag in the office and eat free pizza."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":3999.991,"endTime":4001.091,"body":"You don't get the value add."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4001.091,"endTime":4004.541,"body":"And then at some point somebody realizes,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4001.091,"endTime":4004.541,"body":"wow, this is a really expensive prospect."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4004.541,"endTime":4005.801,"body":"We've got 500 engineers who are."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4006.136,"endTime":4008.816,"body":"Basically just fucking off for 24 hours."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4009.026,"endTime":4009.716,"body":"Let's stop."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4009.746,"endTime":4011.546,"body":"And now we don't have hackathons anymore."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4012.435,"endTime":4014.315,"body":"how many things"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4012.435,"endTime":4014.315,"body":"can I plus one in there?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4014.525,"endTime":4015.235,"body":"All of them."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4015.345,"endTime":4016.515,"body":"I even keep track."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4016.875,"endTime":4017.855,"body":"10 plus ones."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4017.975,"endTime":4018.645,"body":"Is that plus 10?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4020.675,"endTime":4021.115,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4022.045,"endTime":4026.185,"body":"I worry less about the quality."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4026.925,"endTime":4029.335,"body":"I mean, I worry about quality, but"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4026.925,"endTime":4029.335,"body":"that's not the thing about hackathons."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4029.345,"endTime":4033.485,"body":"It's more the like, is it aligned with"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4029.345,"endTime":4033.485,"body":"what we're actually trying to achieve?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4034.085,"endTime":4034.855,"body":"and I think."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4035.41,"endTime":4038.38,"body":"What I would encourage, and I sort"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4035.41,"endTime":4038.38,"body":"of got into this on the DORA metrics"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4038.4,"endTime":4041.94,"body":"thing, right, like, if you can get"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4038.4,"endTime":4041.94,"body":"real feedback from your customers"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4041.94,"endTime":4046.53,"body":"by delivering something in the same"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4041.94,"endTime":4046.53,"body":"day, life feels like a hackathon."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4047.11,"endTime":4047.42,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4047.42,"endTime":4052.074,"body":"Like, I think that a lot of that is"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4047.42,"endTime":4052.074,"body":"spawned, from my life is drudgery,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4052.377,"endTime":4058.207,"body":"my project management hygiene is"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4052.377,"endTime":4058.207,"body":"super high, and all I do is, like,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4058.227,"endTime":4062.512,"body":"execute the tickets that were,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4058.227,"endTime":4062.512,"body":"you know, Perfectly framed for me,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4062.642,"endTime":4063.312,"body":"kill me now"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4063.512,"endTime":4067.395,"body":"and involving your engineers,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4063.512,"endTime":4067.395,"body":"even if it's just a more senior, like"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4067.395,"endTime":4072.015,"body":"your tech leads or whatever that might"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4067.395,"endTime":4072.015,"body":"be like involving them in the product"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4072.015,"endTime":4075.175,"body":"discovery is kind of the ideal for me."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4075.175,"endTime":4078.535,"body":"Like if it feels like I need to take"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4075.175,"endTime":4078.535,"body":"a week off and sit in the bean bag and"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4078.535,"endTime":4082.665,"body":"eat the pizza and like make whatever"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4078.535,"endTime":4082.665,"body":"I want, that's often because my job"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4082.665,"endTime":4084.425,"body":"doesn't feel particularly fulfilling."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4084.665,"endTime":4088.395,"body":"So I would encourage like a deep"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4084.665,"endTime":4088.395,"body":"think about what it is to get"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4088.395,"endTime":4090.185,"body":"your folks engaged all the time."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4090.905,"endTime":4093.565,"body":"So it doesn't feel like a hackathon"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4090.905,"endTime":4093.565,"body":"is like this special treat"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4093.565,"endTime":4094.595,"body":"where I get to work on stuff."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4094.595,"endTime":4097.015,"body":"I like, uh, that sounds terrible."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4097.885,"endTime":4099.845,"body":"One variation I've"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4097.885,"endTime":4099.845,"body":"seen, it's been kind of interesting."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4099.855,"endTime":4103.145,"body":"I think this is like depends on"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4099.855,"endTime":4103.145,"body":"the company, but like rather than"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4103.145,"endTime":4107.245,"body":"hackathons, they would do rotations"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4103.145,"endTime":4107.245,"body":"of engineers into sales engineering"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4107.245,"endTime":4109.065,"body":"or technical services, right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4109.065,"endTime":4111.345,"body":"So it's like now you're"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4109.065,"endTime":4111.345,"body":"getting the customer empathy."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4111.36,"endTime":4123.36,"body":"So I think there's a lot of different"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4111.36,"endTime":4123.36,"body":"ways that you could approach this theme"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4123.78,"endTime":4128.77,"body":"right around getting ultimately what you"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4123.78,"endTime":4128.77,"body":"want, which is engineering, a sense of"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4128.79,"endTime":4132.07,"body":"engineering, ownership, and accountability"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4128.79,"endTime":4132.07,"body":"in the success of the customer experience."},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4132.98,"endTime":4134.564,"body":"Hello, I like this talk."},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4134.584,"endTime":4135.534,"body":"I was, I want to hack it."},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4135.664,"endTime":4137.494,"body":"That one terror was working at Mongo."},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4137.884,"endTime":4138.674,"body":"Do you, I mean, I was working on that."},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4138.684,"endTime":4139.184,"body":"My God, is"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4139.184,"endTime":4139.824,"body":"that Marcus?"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4140.124,"endTime":4140.394,"body":"Is it?"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4140.684,"endTime":4144.984,"body":"If it's, hi Tara, I just sent you"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4140.684,"endTime":4144.984,"body":"an email, but it's irrelevant."},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4145.187,"endTime":4149.269,"body":"there's a lot of talk right now"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4145.187,"endTime":4149.269,"body":"about, there's a ton of engineers."},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4149.269,"endTime":4154.698,"body":"Most engineers, even at these larger"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4149.269,"endTime":4154.698,"body":"companies, where the vast majority"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4154.698,"endTime":4158.358,"body":"of them just do the bare minimum."},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4160.218,"endTime":4165.048,"body":"And maybe that's reflected in this"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4160.218,"endTime":4165.048,"body":"mythical under committed metric"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4165.058,"endTime":4166.378,"body":"that I never would have guessed."},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4166.932,"endTime":4172.532,"body":"What do you do about, a situation,"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4166.932,"endTime":4172.532,"body":"a team where one or two engineers"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4172.882,"endTime":4178.542,"body":"are really outperforming, but"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4172.882,"endTime":4178.542,"body":"everybody else is, they're fine."},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4178.552,"endTime":4180.792,"body":"They're not like, no, one's terrible."},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4180.792,"endTime":4181.612,"body":"So it's not a situation."},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4181.642,"endTime":4184.132,"body":"It's not a situation like you're"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4181.642,"endTime":4184.132,"body":"talking about earlier with"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4184.292,"endTime":4186.152,"body":"there's a leadership puzzle piece."},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4186.567,"endTime":4189.616,"body":"To address, but like everyone's"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4186.567,"endTime":4189.616,"body":"doing okay, but then some"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4189.616,"endTime":4191.896,"body":"people seem to be fantastic."},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4191.896,"endTime":4195.526,"body":"Is that normal or do you have"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4191.896,"endTime":4195.526,"body":"something else to investigate?"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4195.856,"endTime":4196.996,"body":"Is there more to get out of people?"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4196.996,"endTime":4200.806,"body":"Is there a platform issue,"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4196.996,"endTime":4200.806,"body":"tooling issue or culture issue?"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4200.806,"endTime":4205.596,"body":"I'm just curious what you all"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4200.806,"endTime":4205.596,"body":"think about this notion of people"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4205.596,"endTime":4208.276,"body":"are just barely doing any work."},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 3","startTime":4209.136,"endTime":4209.556,"body":"I've seen this."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4209.556,"endTime":4211.226,"body":"It's the"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4209.556,"endTime":4211.226,"body":"10 times employee, right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4211.256,"endTime":4211.716,"body":"I know, do you?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4211.796,"endTime":4212.676,"body":"I went first last time."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4213.186,"endTime":4216.0,"body":"Oh man, You know,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4213.186,"endTime":4216.0,"body":"you listed some ideas there."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4216.29,"endTime":4217.56,"body":"And it's a really interesting question."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4217.58,"endTime":4219.89,"body":"Listen, my idea, like I said,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4217.58,"endTime":4219.89,"body":"platform problem is a tooling problem."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4219.89,"endTime":4220.68,"body":"Is it a culture problem?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4220.68,"endTime":4222.65,"body":"Like the answer is yes to one of those."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4223.23,"endTime":4228.13,"body":"And this is where like the whole theme of"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4223.23,"endTime":4228.13,"body":"metrics are the start of a conversation."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4228.14,"endTime":4228.46,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4228.48,"endTime":4232.98,"body":"Like, okay, I can see that a couple of"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4228.48,"endTime":4232.98,"body":"people on my team are, you know, whatever"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4232.98,"endTime":4235.56,"body":"your measure might be, they're just"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4232.98,"endTime":4235.56,"body":"delivering a lot more, they're writing"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4235.56,"endTime":4239.24,"body":"better code, they're super engaged while"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4235.56,"endTime":4239.24,"body":"other people are a little checked out."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4239.763,"endTime":4242.253,"body":"That's your manager's job, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4242.293,"endTime":4243.443,"body":"Is to figure out."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4244.008,"endTime":4246.448,"body":"Do these people have,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4244.008,"endTime":4246.448,"body":"do they have the skills?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4246.768,"endTime":4248.578,"body":"Are they engaged in the"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4246.768,"endTime":4248.578,"body":"problem we're solving?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4248.918,"endTime":4253.128,"body":"Are they, you know, 5 percent of"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4248.918,"endTime":4253.128,"body":"the time, I have no percentage."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4253.498,"endTime":4257.018,"body":"Some percentage of the time, that person"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4253.498,"endTime":4257.018,"body":"just has some shit going on in their life."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4257.768,"endTime":4259.898,"body":"And they were actually great three"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4257.768,"endTime":4259.898,"body":"months ago, and they're gonna be"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4259.908,"endTime":4262.258,"body":"great in three months, and they're"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4259.908,"endTime":4262.258,"body":"just going through some stuff."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4263.108,"endTime":4266.448,"body":"And sometimes they are absolutely"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4263.108,"endTime":4266.448,"body":"terrified to show up at work every"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4266.448,"endTime":4268.928,"body":"day because they feel like they"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4266.448,"endTime":4268.928,"body":"have no idea what they're doing,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4269.308,"endTime":4270.468,"body":"and someone's gonna find out."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4271.128,"endTime":4274.838,"body":"I cannot tell you which of those scenarios"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4271.128,"endTime":4274.838,"body":"it is from looking at a dashboard, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4275.208,"endTime":4281.848,"body":"And so it's absolutely telling, if"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4275.208,"endTime":4281.848,"body":"some people are able to execute really"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4281.848,"endTime":4285.868,"body":"effectively in that environment, then"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4281.848,"endTime":4285.868,"body":"you have an interesting baseline."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4286.658,"endTime":4289.268,"body":"Some people are executing here and"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4286.658,"endTime":4289.268,"body":"some people are executing here."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4289.268,"endTime":4292.478,"body":"So it's not the environment"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4289.268,"endTime":4292.478,"body":"holistically, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4292.508,"endTime":4296.938,"body":"We talk about this with like twins raised"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4292.508,"endTime":4296.938,"body":"in the same environment, same genetics."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4296.938,"endTime":4298.358,"body":"Okay, but they end up different."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4298.358,"endTime":4299.068,"body":"Okay, what's it?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4299.068,"endTime":4299.918,"body":"What do we learned?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4300.558,"endTime":4303.138,"body":"I can't tell you what the answer"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4300.558,"endTime":4303.138,"body":"is, but I can tell you there's"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4303.138,"endTime":4304.288,"body":"something interesting there."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4304.528,"endTime":4306.938,"body":"And I would want a manager to"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4304.528,"endTime":4306.938,"body":"be going and figuring that out."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4306.948,"endTime":4309.718,"body":"Like if you, you know, there was kind"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4306.948,"endTime":4309.718,"body":"of open with the like, what do you think"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4309.718,"endTime":4313.108,"body":"about people kind of drifting by and not,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4309.718,"endTime":4313.108,"body":"you know, just doing the bare minimum?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4313.678,"endTime":4314.628,"body":"It's not the ideal."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4314.998,"endTime":4316.828,"body":"It's not what I want in my organization."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4316.908,"endTime":4320.628,"body":"I understand it happens, but the first"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4316.908,"endTime":4320.628,"body":"step is just understanding why, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4321.178,"endTime":4323.898,"body":"And some people might just be"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4321.178,"endTime":4323.898,"body":"burned out on your organization."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4324.048,"endTime":4325.028,"body":"maybe they need to change."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4325.028,"endTime":4326.408,"body":"That's totally fine, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4326.408,"endTime":4330.688,"body":"But if you're not even having that"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4326.408,"endTime":4330.688,"body":"conversation, What will happen in that"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4330.688,"endTime":4334.561,"body":"scenario, again, I'll call it 80 percent"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4330.688,"endTime":4334.561,"body":"of the time, I'm making up random"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4334.561,"endTime":4339.211,"body":"percentages, is those two people that"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4334.561,"endTime":4339.211,"body":"are crushing it, probably gonna leave."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4339.931,"endTime":4342.991,"body":"Cause they're like, wait a second,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4339.931,"endTime":4342.991,"body":"I'm carrying the team, and everyone"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4342.991,"endTime":4346.641,"body":"else is making the money I'm making,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4342.991,"endTime":4346.641,"body":"but I'm doing all the work, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4346.651,"endTime":4351.581,"body":"So it's important to address,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4346.651,"endTime":4351.581,"body":"there's plenty of human factors and"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4351.581,"endTime":4355.931,"body":"it's just, it's complex for sure,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4351.581,"endTime":4355.931,"body":"but if you don't address it, what"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4355.931,"endTime":4358.861,"body":"you're gonna get is just a team of"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4355.931,"endTime":4358.861,"body":"people who are just phoning it in."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4359.461,"endTime":4360.371,"body":"That much I guarantee."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":4361.021,"endTime":4364.761,"body":"Yeah, just added, I think"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":4361.021,"endTime":4364.761,"body":"it totally goes back to the team leader"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":4364.761,"endTime":4368.121,"body":"and to the manager, each one of the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":4364.761,"endTime":4368.121,"body":"developers on the team is going to have"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":4368.121,"endTime":4372.261,"body":"different aspirations, what motivates"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":4368.121,"endTime":4372.261,"body":"them, what a good experience looks"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":4372.261,"endTime":4377.821,"body":"like, you can probably ask three to"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":4372.261,"endTime":4377.821,"body":"four questions and find out, Hey, do you"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":4377.821,"endTime":4379.631,"body":"like the product that you're working on?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":4380.101,"endTime":4380.771,"body":"Yes or no?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":4380.811,"endTime":4383.461,"body":"Are you inspired by the"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":4380.811,"endTime":4383.461,"body":"technology that you're using?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":4383.906,"endTime":4387.296,"body":"Do you feel that you have"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":4383.906,"endTime":4387.296,"body":"the right career path here?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":4387.736,"endTime":4390.476,"body":"And are you motivated, if"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":4387.736,"endTime":4390.476,"body":"I'm the team leader, by me?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":4390.476,"endTime":4391.856,"body":"Am I giving you inspiration?"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":4391.856,"endTime":4394.126,"body":"You ask a few questions,"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":4391.856,"endTime":4394.126,"body":"you'll probably find out."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":4394.386,"endTime":4397.076,"body":"The two that are performing"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":4394.386,"endTime":4397.076,"body":"really well probably have good"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":4397.076,"endTime":4398.906,"body":"alignment on most of those."},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":4399.566,"endTime":4402.596,"body":"The ones that aren't performing as"},{"speaker":"Dan Lines","startTime":4399.566,"endTime":4402.596,"body":"well, there's going to be a major gap."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4403.456,"endTime":4407.266,"body":"So yes, to all that,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4403.456,"endTime":4407.266,"body":"I think there's another thing, and"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4407.266,"endTime":4411.336,"body":"I've had some success with this, which"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4407.266,"endTime":4411.336,"body":"is, you know, how, how intentional"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4411.336,"endTime":4414.526,"body":"are you as a leader about your"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4411.336,"endTime":4414.526,"body":"culture kind of in the broad sense?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4414.526,"endTime":4414.686,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4414.686,"endTime":4415.106,"body":"Well, one."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4415.486,"endTime":4418.036,"body":"First of all, humans aren't fungible"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4415.486,"endTime":4418.036,"body":"and don't treat them as if they are,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4418.056,"endTime":4420.036,"body":"because that way lies madness and chaos."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4420.466,"endTime":4423.62,"body":"but yeah, bench management, to"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4420.466,"endTime":4423.62,"body":"Rob's point, super critical."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4423.65,"endTime":4425.88,"body":"Don't take your top"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4423.65,"endTime":4425.88,"body":"performers for granted."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4426.19,"endTime":4429.46,"body":"They think about, how do you incentivize"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4426.19,"endTime":4429.46,"body":"the type of culture you want?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4429.47,"endTime":4432.87,"body":"You know, we say as leaders that we"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4429.47,"endTime":4432.87,"body":"want employees that, have a learning"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4433.18,"endTime":4434.79,"body":"attitude, a learning mindset, right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4434.79,"endTime":4437.17,"body":"Well, how do you know that"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4434.79,"endTime":4437.17,"body":"and how do you incentivize it?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4437.44,"endTime":4440.84,"body":"So there was a company I was working"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4437.44,"endTime":4440.84,"body":"at that, was kind of migrating out of"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4440.84,"endTime":4445.47,"body":"a more stodgy, infrequent deployment,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4440.84,"endTime":4445.47,"body":"and wanted to get into the cloud."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4445.84,"endTime":4447.74,"body":"Uh, wanted to, you know, go faster."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4447.75,"endTime":4449.58,"body":"And I'm like, alright,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4447.75,"endTime":4449.58,"body":"well, what's the test story?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4449.61,"endTime":4452.17,"body":"Well, we don't have very"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4449.61,"endTime":4452.17,"body":"many tests, automated tests,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4452.17,"endTime":4453.25,"body":"but we have a good QA team."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4453.25,"endTime":4456.35,"body":"Like, okay, well, they need to focus"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4453.25,"endTime":4456.35,"body":"on the stuff that's hard to automate."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4456.75,"endTime":4457.89,"body":"We need the developers to write tests."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4457.89,"endTime":4459.52,"body":"Well, developers don't"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4457.89,"endTime":4459.52,"body":"write tests, they're not QA."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4459.65,"endTime":4461.79,"body":"Now, this is the opposite side"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4459.65,"endTime":4461.79,"body":"of the problem that we have now."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4462.315,"endTime":4464.915,"body":"Which developers can't write"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4462.315,"endTime":4464.915,"body":"negative tests, but in any case"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4465.125,"endTime":4468.335,"body":"so I we this is we're on the"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4465.125,"endTime":4468.335,"body":"office We have screens everywhere."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4468.505,"endTime":4472.285,"body":"I wrote some code that would call stuff"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4468.505,"endTime":4472.285,"body":"out of we were using bamboo, which is a"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4472.285,"endTime":4477.34,"body":"terrible CI system Don't use it You know,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4472.285,"endTime":4477.34,"body":"we're using Jira like okay top Top build"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4477.34,"endTime":4481.68,"body":"breaker, you would get like a negative"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4477.34,"endTime":4481.68,"body":"Chivo, like top, you know, bug generator."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4481.68,"endTime":4483.47,"body":"You get a negative Chivo, top bug fixer."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4483.47,"endTime":4487.59,"body":"Oh, you get happiness and light and it was"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4483.47,"endTime":4487.59,"body":"a totally Mario Kart sort of experience"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4487.81,"endTime":4489.06,"body":"all over the engineer organization."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4489.06,"endTime":4489.81,"body":"What do you know?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4491.38,"endTime":4494.34,"body":"The number of tests went up, the"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4491.38,"endTime":4494.34,"body":"number of failures went down because"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4494.34,"endTime":4495.77,"body":"we made a game out of it, right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4495.77,"endTime":4497.95,"body":"So you know that's not gonna"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4495.77,"endTime":4497.95,"body":"work for every organization."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4497.95,"endTime":4499.65,"body":"It's not gonna work for"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4497.95,"endTime":4499.65,"body":"every product team, right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4499.67,"endTime":4504.28,"body":"But you know again goes back to"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4499.67,"endTime":4504.28,"body":"these metrics are critical tools."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4505.62,"endTime":4508.01,"body":"Not outcomes in and of themselves, right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4508.03,"endTime":4510.94,"body":"that is the biggest thing what you get"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4508.03,"endTime":4510.94,"body":"the data Make sure you it's accurate"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4510.94,"endTime":4514.53,"body":"as possible and now do something with"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4510.94,"endTime":4514.53,"body":"it Don't just have a dashboard that"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4514.53,"endTime":4516.88,"body":"you kind of look at every once in a"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4514.53,"endTime":4516.88,"body":"while and think huh, that's interesting"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 1","startTime":4517.47,"endTime":4517.76,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 1","startTime":4517.93,"endTime":4518.27,"body":"One more."},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 1","startTime":4518.65,"endTime":4519.37,"body":"Just one more."},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 1","startTime":4519.553,"endTime":4524.538,"body":"So during the discussion about CI CD and"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 1","startTime":4519.553,"endTime":4524.538,"body":"Tara you dropped a little grenade about"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 1","startTime":4524.718,"endTime":4529.931,"body":"companies throwing out their QA processes,"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 1","startTime":4524.718,"endTime":4529.931,"body":"in, in sort of the search for CD nirvana."},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 1","startTime":4529.951,"endTime":4534.061,"body":"And you touched on just briefly, but I"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 1","startTime":4529.951,"endTime":4534.061,"body":"want to know what, from your perspective"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 1","startTime":4534.141,"endTime":4537.861,"body":"as a leader who's seen kind of the"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 1","startTime":4534.141,"endTime":4537.861,"body":"adoption of CICD, what's to be the best"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 1","startTime":4537.861,"endTime":4543.531,"body":"approach for folding in an existing"},{"speaker":"Audience Speaker 1","startTime":4537.861,"endTime":4543.531,"body":"QA process into our migration to CICD?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4544.671,"endTime":4547.341,"body":"So, I mean, to me,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4544.671,"endTime":4547.341,"body":"the, the value of qa, like a QA"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4547.611,"endTime":4550.611,"body":"engineer, their value is that they"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4547.611,"endTime":4550.611,"body":"understand how to break things."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4551.836,"endTime":4555.036,"body":"they're multipliers on the robustness"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4551.836,"endTime":4555.036,"body":"and reliability of your system."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4555.466,"endTime":4560.256,"body":"Developers know how to write statistically"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4555.466,"endTime":4560.256,"body":"speaking, I'm not saying absolutes,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4560.256,"endTime":4563.196,"body":"but developers statistically speaking"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4560.256,"endTime":4563.196,"body":"are really good at writing tests that"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4563.396,"endTime":4567.926,"body":"prove that what they wrote worked,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4563.396,"endTime":4567.926,"body":"not how to prove that it doesn't"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4567.936,"endTime":4569.706,"body":"break under different circumstances."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4569.706,"endTime":4574.663,"body":"And so the domain of QA, I think that we"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4569.706,"endTime":4574.663,"body":"as an industry have too often blithely"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4574.663,"endTime":4577.653,"body":"kind of tossed has lost that art."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4577.663,"endTime":4577.933,"body":"Now."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4579.108,"endTime":4581.668,"body":"You could argue, like, used to be,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4579.108,"endTime":4581.668,"body":"like, you could, you know, you could"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4581.678,"endTime":4584.848,"body":"automate, like, back end stuff that's"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4581.678,"endTime":4584.848,"body":"all APIs, but you couldn't automate"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4584.858,"endTime":4587.698,"body":"front end now, and then SonarQube and,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4584.858,"endTime":4587.698,"body":"and other companies came out, well,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4587.698,"endTime":4591.308,"body":"now you can automate your front end,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4587.698,"endTime":4591.308,"body":"but that still doesn't solve, I think,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4591.308,"endTime":4596.158,"body":"having the domain expertise to guide"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4591.308,"endTime":4596.158,"body":"the negative aspects, right, the stress"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4596.178,"endTime":4599.108,"body":"testing, what have you, and what we've"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4596.178,"endTime":4599.108,"body":"turned it into is incidence management."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4599.118,"endTime":4601.888,"body":"It's like, oh, well, it got out to"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4599.118,"endTime":4601.888,"body":"production, and now we can, if we"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4601.888,"endTime":4604.418,"body":"can fix it fast, we're okay, and"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4601.888,"endTime":4604.418,"body":"maybe that's the right answer, right?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4604.418,"endTime":4606.188,"body":"I'm not, like, an oracle of truth here."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4606.568,"endTime":4609.678,"body":"But I do think that as an industry,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4606.568,"endTime":4609.678,"body":"we've lost something there and it, and I"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4609.698,"endTime":4612.628,"body":"think it'll be interesting and I suspect"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4609.698,"endTime":4612.628,"body":"it will actually come back around."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4612.628,"endTime":4615.318,"body":"Everything in the internet"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4612.628,"endTime":4615.318,"body":"is cyclical in my experience."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4615.318,"endTime":4617.878,"body":"So I think people are identifying,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4615.318,"endTime":4617.878,"body":"they still have QA teams."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4617.878,"endTime":4619.078,"body":"They probably are still getting value."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4619.448,"endTime":4622.198,"body":"If they're struggling in a lot for"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4619.448,"endTime":4622.198,"body":"quality issues, they're probably thinking,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4622.208,"endTime":4624.508,"body":"huh, maybe we need some QA experts."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4624.648,"endTime":4628.198,"body":"You know, hopefully they don't still"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4624.648,"endTime":4628.198,"body":"exist, um, to come in and help guide"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4628.208,"endTime":4631.648,"body":"how we do production operations,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4628.208,"endTime":4631.648,"body":"how we do CI/CD in interesting ways."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4631.888,"endTime":4634.568,"body":"I think it's an interesting"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4631.888,"endTime":4634.568,"body":"thought exercise, honestly."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4635.773,"endTime":4640.656,"body":"Yeah, I mean, I definitely"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4635.773,"endTime":4640.656,"body":"agree with developers testing the"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4640.656,"endTime":4645.51,"body":"assumptions that they've made, proving"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4640.656,"endTime":4645.51,"body":"that the assumptions they made work as"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4645.51,"endTime":4650.72,"body":"opposed to questioning the assumptions"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4645.51,"endTime":4650.72,"body":"they've made right at QA, the best sort"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4650.72,"endTime":4653.87,"body":"of QA folks that I've known in my life"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4650.72,"endTime":4653.87,"body":"were that they're like, what happens"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4653.87,"endTime":4655.98,"body":"if I type this crazy string in here?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4655.98,"endTime":4657.84,"body":"And you're like, well, you"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4655.98,"endTime":4657.84,"body":"just crashed the entire site."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4657.87,"endTime":4658.68,"body":"That's pretty impressive."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4659.04,"endTime":4659.86,"body":"How'd you think of that?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4659.9,"endTime":4660.76,"body":"I don't know."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4660.76,"endTime":4661.93,"body":"It just made sense to me, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4661.93,"endTime":4662.13,"body":"Like, yeah."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4662.43,"endTime":4664.35,"body":"And I think that that's missing."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4664.86,"endTime":4668.51,"body":"I will say at CircleCI, I would, we"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4664.86,"endTime":4668.51,"body":"do not have anyone with the title"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4668.78,"endTime":4670.72,"body":"quality QA, anything like that."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4670.72,"endTime":4672.31,"body":"I mean, that's been"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4670.72,"endTime":4672.31,"body":"true since I got there."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4672.66,"endTime":4676.23,"body":"and we have built a large amount of"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4672.66,"endTime":4676.23,"body":"tooling for ourselves and unsurprisingly"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4676.26,"endTime":4680.02,"body":"for our customers to allow you"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4676.26,"endTime":4680.02,"body":"to, you know, to mitigate risk."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4680.53,"endTime":4683.41,"body":"In production deployment to make"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4680.53,"endTime":4683.41,"body":"it so that, you know, if something"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4683.41,"endTime":4686.58,"body":"does go wrong, it impacts a very"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4683.41,"endTime":4686.58,"body":"small number of your customers."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4686.58,"endTime":4687.98,"body":"It's easy to remediate, et cetera."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4688.59,"endTime":4691.77,"body":"so I think there's many strategies,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4688.59,"endTime":4691.77,"body":"but I do think that's an interesting"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4691.77,"endTime":4695.49,"body":"piece that we've, you know, I,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4691.77,"endTime":4695.49,"body":"does anyone have a replacement"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4695.49,"endTime":4697.29,"body":"for the baby bathwater metaphor?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4697.33,"endTime":4698.92,"body":"Because it kind of"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4697.33,"endTime":4698.92,"body":"freaks me out, but like."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4699.735,"endTime":4701.225,"body":"That's the one you would use, right?"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4701.225,"endTime":4703.395,"body":"Like we got, we're like, Oh,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4701.225,"endTime":4703.395,"body":"we have automated testing."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4703.485,"endTime":4708.535,"body":"But we threw out with that the ability to"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4703.485,"endTime":4708.535,"body":"reason about the weird edge cases that are"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4708.535,"endTime":4711.465,"body":"going to break a system because you didn't"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4708.535,"endTime":4711.465,"body":"think about them as you were implementing."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4712.028,"endTime":4715.108,"body":"but I think the question was"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4712.028,"endTime":4715.108,"body":"really about making the transition."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4715.208,"endTime":4716.748,"body":"Take it in small increments."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4716.758,"endTime":4719.168,"body":"Find a way to test a certain"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4716.758,"endTime":4719.168,"body":"part of your platform."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4719.348,"endTime":4722.668,"body":"Take the things that are fairly"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4719.348,"endTime":4722.668,"body":"stable and put in regression tests,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4722.668,"endTime":4723.748,"body":"you know, those sorts of things."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4724.098,"endTime":4727.198,"body":"I think a lot of people, when they try"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4724.098,"endTime":4727.198,"body":"to make big transitions to anything,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4727.208,"endTime":4733.258,"body":"any technology or whatever, try to do"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4727.208,"endTime":4733.258,"body":"something all in, and, like, spoiler,"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4733.308,"endTime":4735.788,"body":"I don't even know what you're thinking"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4733.308,"endTime":4735.788,"body":"about right now, but that's gonna fail."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4736.388,"endTime":4739.698,"body":"Right, doing anything all at"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4736.388,"endTime":4739.698,"body":"once is just guaranteed to fail."},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4739.698,"endTime":4742.128,"body":"It's gonna be, like, way bigger than"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4739.698,"endTime":4742.128,"body":"you ever imagined, you're never gonna"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4742.128,"endTime":4745.358,"body":"get there, but if you can find a"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4742.128,"endTime":4745.358,"body":"way to do it in small increments You"},{"speaker":"Rob Zuber","startTime":4745.358,"endTime":4746.878,"body":"can make any transition over time."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4747.048,"endTime":4747.218,"body":"Great."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4747.228,"endTime":4750.888,"body":"And I think, you know, just to close"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4747.228,"endTime":4750.888,"body":"it out, it's, I think one of the main"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4750.888,"endTime":4754.618,"body":"reasons that, as a DevOps aficionado,"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4750.888,"endTime":4754.618,"body":"I kind of mourn the fact that DevOps"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4754.638,"endTime":4758.758,"body":"contributed to this concept because"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4754.638,"endTime":4758.758,"body":"you can't have manual QA gate keeping"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4758.758,"endTime":4761.168,"body":"as part of a continuous delivery"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4758.758,"endTime":4761.168,"body":"or continuous deployment mechanism."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4761.168,"endTime":4761.428,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4761.828,"endTime":4765.138,"body":"But I, I assert that there are probably"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4761.828,"endTime":4765.138,"body":"different ways that we can approach"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4765.138,"endTime":4766.778,"body":"this asynchronous as a thing, right."},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4766.798,"endTime":4768.908,"body":"That, you know, where do you insert them?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4768.908,"endTime":4769.898,"body":"Is it in the design phase?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4769.908,"endTime":4772.258,"body":"Like there's a lot of things there, but"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4769.908,"endTime":4772.258,"body":"I think what you have to think about as"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4772.258,"endTime":4774.108,"body":"a business is where are you struggling?"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4774.633,"endTime":4779.073,"body":"And, you know, can, can a different"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4774.633,"endTime":4779.073,"body":"type of, of domain expertise help"},{"speaker":"Tara Hernandez","startTime":4779.556,"endTime":4781.036,"body":"and then figure out what that means."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":4782.033,"endTime":4782.443,"body":"Awesome."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":4782.483,"endTime":4784.393,"body":"Well, let's hear it one"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":4782.483,"endTime":4784.393,"body":"more time for our guests."}]}