{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":9.104,"endTime":11.114,"body":"Welcome to Dev Interrupted."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":11.354,"endTime":12.854,"body":"I'm your host, Andrew Ziegler."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":13.311,"endTime":15.042,"body":"And I'm"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":13.311,"endTime":15.042,"body":"your host, Ben Lloyd Pearson."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":15.397,"endTime":18.067,"body":"In today's news,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":15.397,"endTime":18.067,"body":"we're talking about a few topics."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":18.607,"endTime":21.997,"body":"Top of mind for me is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":18.607,"endTime":21.997,"body":"Google's new AI search mode."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":22.657,"endTime":27.337,"body":"Another one is a new buzzword I"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":22.657,"endTime":27.337,"body":"was reading about called Ax, and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":27.427,"endTime":32.167,"body":"not like an ax that you hit someone"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":27.427,"endTime":32.167,"body":"with, but actually agent experience."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":32.532,"endTime":37.692,"body":"there was another one, uh, AWS"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":32.532,"endTime":37.692,"body":"formed an internal agentic AI group."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":37.872,"endTime":43.602,"body":"That was pretty cool, and I found some"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":37.872,"endTime":43.602,"body":"sweet, sweet, useless apps online."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":44.022,"endTime":45.447,"body":"Ben, what do you want to talk about first?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":46.465,"endTime":49.615,"body":"As much as"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":46.465,"endTime":49.615,"body":"I love useless apps, I think we"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":49.615,"endTime":52.285,"body":"should dive into the Google search."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":52.842,"endTime":57.062,"body":"Okay, so we've been"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":52.842,"endTime":57.062,"body":"talking about the search war between"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":57.062,"endTime":62.192,"body":"AI and Google on this podcast for a few"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":57.062,"endTime":62.192,"body":"weeks now, Google search has unveiled a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":62.192,"endTime":65.132,"body":"new AI mode that lets you ask complex."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":65.627,"endTime":69.107,"body":"Questions with many different"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":65.627,"endTime":69.107,"body":"parts directly into the search bar."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":69.297,"endTime":74.963,"body":"before, what might have been five or"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":69.297,"endTime":74.963,"body":"10, or maybe even many more individual"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":74.963,"endTime":79.613,"body":"queries by you, as you try to understand"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":74.963,"endTime":79.613,"body":"a question or seek something out"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":79.613,"endTime":83.993,"body":"online, you can now explore these"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":79.613,"endTime":83.993,"body":"search results in a more natural"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":83.993,"endTime":85.703,"body":"conversation like way with Google."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":86.194,"endTime":90.544,"body":"Yeah, it seems that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":86.194,"endTime":90.544,"body":"Google search lives to see another day."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":90.703,"endTime":95.233,"body":"you know, it's, kind of extraordinary"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":90.703,"endTime":95.233,"body":"to think about how much our typical"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":95.263,"endTime":97.033,"body":"research process has changed."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":97.033,"endTime":100.873,"body":"I. In such a short amount of time,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":97.033,"endTime":100.873,"body":"like the way we used to acquire"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":100.873,"endTime":105.103,"body":"information just feels like a,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":100.873,"endTime":105.103,"body":"a distant dream at this point."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":105.493,"endTime":108.723,"body":"But, you know, and I think this is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":105.493,"endTime":108.723,"body":"also a great example of how Disruption"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":108.783,"endTime":111.213,"body":"from AI doesn't necessarily mean death."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":111.303,"endTime":113.703,"body":"You know, a lot of people are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":111.303,"endTime":113.703,"body":"concerned about whose jobs are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":113.703,"endTime":117.513,"body":"gonna get taken or, or what sort"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":113.703,"endTime":117.513,"body":"of industries it's gonna wipe out."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":117.963,"endTime":122.613,"body":"And I think the reality is more like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":117.963,"endTime":122.613,"body":"AI is going to disrupt us, but it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":122.613,"endTime":126.723,"body":"probably not gonna wipe out like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":122.613,"endTime":126.723,"body":"swaths of professional jobs overnight."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":126.723,"endTime":130.713,"body":"Like there's a lot of room to just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":126.723,"endTime":130.713,"body":"adapt and leverage all of the benefits"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":130.713,"endTime":132.363,"body":"that these tools are bringing us."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":132.806,"endTime":136.976,"body":"What I see here is Google"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":132.806,"endTime":136.976,"body":"taking another bite back from AI and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":137.066,"endTime":140.486,"body":"the ongoing search wars, earning back"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":137.066,"endTime":140.486,"body":"a little bit of that market share."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":140.586,"endTime":142.566,"body":"I think we've all had our"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":140.586,"endTime":142.566,"body":"mixed experiences going to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":142.566,"endTime":144.636,"body":"Google and getting AI results."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":145.356,"endTime":147.146,"body":"I. Answers, uh, in, in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":145.356,"endTime":147.146,"body":"response to your queries."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":147.146,"endTime":151.656,"body":"And so once that further towards a better"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":147.146,"endTime":151.656,"body":"version of that goal, is really great."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":151.866,"endTime":154.546,"body":"And like what you were saying, I"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":151.866,"endTime":154.546,"body":"think that, you know, there's more"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":154.546,"endTime":157.036,"body":"disruptions always on the horizon."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":157.126,"endTime":160.066,"body":"They come from everywhere, but"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":157.126,"endTime":160.066,"body":"ultimately what this disruption"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":160.066,"endTime":161.413,"body":"means is a higher demand."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":161.796,"endTime":163.746,"body":"For more unique experiences."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":163.956,"endTime":167.436,"body":"'cause now you can go to Google and ask"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":163.956,"endTime":167.436,"body":"that really in depth, maybe even personal"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":167.436,"endTime":171.696,"body":"question and crawl across a lot of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":167.436,"endTime":171.696,"body":"real time resources in a way that maybe"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":171.696,"endTime":174.306,"body":"before you were using an LLM for anyways."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":174.636,"endTime":178.356,"body":"It's going to create a more personalized"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":174.636,"endTime":178.356,"body":"experience for everyone online, which I"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":178.356,"endTime":182.496,"body":"think is gonna just increase the demand"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":178.356,"endTime":182.496,"body":"for more jobs and more professionals"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":182.496,"endTime":186.126,"body":"and more technologists that come in and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":182.496,"endTime":186.126,"body":"create these personalized experiences"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":186.126,"endTime":187.476,"body":"for people with the technology."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":187.939,"endTime":190.204,"body":"Yeah, and this,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":187.939,"endTime":190.204,"body":"this ties nicely into the article"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":190.204,"endTime":191.884,"body":"that I wanted to bring up today."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":192.104,"endTime":194.864,"body":"and that's this concept"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":192.104,"endTime":194.864,"body":"of a agent experience."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":194.864,"endTime":199.374,"body":"So, maybe this is disrupting Dev X, or at"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":194.864,"endTime":199.374,"body":"least that's the point of this article."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":199.864,"endTime":203.574,"body":"that I read this week, and the whole"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":199.864,"endTime":203.574,"body":"point is that we have to start focusing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":203.574,"endTime":209.304,"body":"on agent experience, which is defined as"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":203.574,"endTime":209.304,"body":"the holistic experience that AI agents"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":209.304,"endTime":212.618,"body":"have as the user of a product or platform."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":212.618,"endTime":216.678,"body":"So, think about how everything is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":212.618,"endTime":216.678,"body":"sort of built for humans as the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":216.678,"endTime":218.888,"body":"end user, like the web for example."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":219.158,"endTime":223.298,"body":"Most websites are built for a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":219.158,"endTime":223.298,"body":"human to visually analyze them"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":223.298,"endTime":224.978,"body":"and extract information from them."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":225.293,"endTime":228.893,"body":"And if you're a bot, that's just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":225.293,"endTime":228.893,"body":"like scraping text off of a website."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":228.893,"endTime":231.583,"body":"The web actually looks"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":228.893,"endTime":231.583,"body":"entirely different to you."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":232.063,"endTime":235.993,"body":"Uh, and in that same way,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":232.063,"endTime":235.993,"body":"AI agents are the same."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":236.043,"endTime":239.343,"body":"the patterns that work for humans"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":236.043,"endTime":239.343,"body":"aren't always gonna work for these"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":239.343,"endTime":241.293,"body":"agents, at least not in an optimal way."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":241.498,"endTime":244.828,"body":"this article highlights two"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":241.498,"endTime":244.828,"body":"ways that agents are getting"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":244.858,"endTime":246.868,"body":"integrated into products."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":247.058,"endTime":250.118,"body":"the first is vertical, so that's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":247.058,"endTime":250.118,"body":"like what we were talking about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":250.118,"endTime":251.888,"body":"with the Google search example."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":252.138,"endTime":253.968,"body":"and that's where you have"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":252.138,"endTime":253.968,"body":"tighter integrations of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":253.968,"endTime":255.981,"body":"internal AI into your product."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":255.981,"endTime":259.724,"body":"in addition to Google search, adding"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":255.981,"endTime":259.724,"body":"these new AI capabilities, it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":259.724,"endTime":264.704,"body":"like Google also adds like Gemini"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":259.724,"endTime":264.704,"body":"buttons to Google Docs, for example."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":264.884,"endTime":267.734,"body":"and then the other side of that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":264.884,"endTime":267.734,"body":"is horizontal, so making it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":267.734,"endTime":270.914,"body":"easier for external agents to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":267.734,"endTime":270.914,"body":"interact with your platform."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":270.914,"endTime":276.724,"body":"So think about like, bring more, select"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":270.914,"endTime":276.724,"body":"external models into, to a platform"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":276.724,"endTime":278.854,"body":"to leverage capabilities that it has."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":279.258,"endTime":280.898,"body":"Thinking about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":279.258,"endTime":280.898,"body":"the agent experience for the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":280.898,"endTime":283.408,"body":"first time is, very eyeopening."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":283.458,"endTime":286.548,"body":"it kind of shows us the way that we're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":283.458,"endTime":286.548,"body":"gonna build technology to be consumed in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":286.548,"endTime":288.678,"body":"the future who are its future consumers."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":289.108,"endTime":292.778,"body":"this kind of news also reminds"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":289.108,"endTime":292.778,"body":"me of the recent, model, context,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":292.778,"endTime":294.863,"body":"protocol, and all of the development."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":295.823,"endTime":296.093,"body":"Around that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":296.093,"endTime":301.133,"body":"And, and if you're not familiar, I talked"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":296.093,"endTime":301.133,"body":"with a guest this week, about MCP, um,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":301.133,"endTime":304.223,"body":"and he told me all about how companies"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":301.133,"endTime":304.223,"body":"are turning their products and tools,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":304.443,"endTime":307.023,"body":"for LLMs into things they can use."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":307.203,"endTime":309.813,"body":"I'm excited to bring 'em onto"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":307.203,"endTime":309.813,"body":"the podcast in the future, but"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":309.963,"endTime":312.313,"body":"it really got me thinking, about."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":312.593,"endTime":316.597,"body":"This entire experience, because this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":312.593,"endTime":316.597,"body":"is exactly what he described, creating"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":316.643,"endTime":319.733,"body":"the schema of the tooling for you to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":316.643,"endTime":319.733,"body":"plug it into cursor for you to plug"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":319.733,"endTime":322.853,"body":"it into your at home chat box, for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":319.733,"endTime":322.853,"body":"you to put it into any kind of in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":322.853,"endTime":324.743,"body":"product or, personalized experience."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":324.743,"endTime":328.523,"body":"And so, the idea that they have an"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":324.743,"endTime":328.523,"body":"experience too, and there's things"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":328.523,"endTime":332.455,"body":"that they need, it flips the entire"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":328.523,"endTime":332.455,"body":"script on how we might build,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":332.753,"endTime":334.433,"body":"our actual workflows to be used."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":334.828,"endTime":339.688,"body":"And ultimately I think it's time to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":334.828,"endTime":339.688,"body":"think maybe a little bit about that agent"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":339.688,"endTime":341.668,"body":"experience alongside your developer."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":341.668,"endTime":346.468,"body":"One, uh, when you're creating resources"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":341.668,"endTime":346.468,"body":"or otherwise developing your technology,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":346.738,"endTime":348.058,"body":"think about who we might be using it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":348.475,"endTime":348.805,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":349.315,"endTime":351.685,"body":"So what, what's, uh, what's the next"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":349.315,"endTime":351.685,"body":"story you wanna talk about, Andrew?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":352.222,"endTime":355.192,"body":"Well, we gotta talk"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":352.222,"endTime":355.192,"body":"about the useless apps at this point,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":355.492,"endTime":356.095,"body":"Oh, yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":356.362,"endTime":356.575,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":356.662,"endTime":358.222,"body":"been talking"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":356.662,"endTime":358.222,"body":"about a lot of AI stuff."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":358.252,"endTime":359.512,"body":"This one's a little more fun."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":359.842,"endTime":362.392,"body":"Have you ever kind of wished that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":359.842,"endTime":362.392,"body":"your phone kind of just like,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":362.392,"endTime":364.912,"body":"wouldn't let you use it at all?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":365.392,"endTime":366.232,"body":"Maybe Like at all."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":366.232,"endTime":366.622,"body":"At all?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":366.742,"endTime":368.392,"body":"Do you ever pick it up and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":366.742,"endTime":368.392,"body":"you're just like, I wish I"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":368.392,"endTime":369.712,"body":"wasn't picking it up as much."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":370.405,"endTime":372.739,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":370.405,"endTime":372.739,"body":"at least twice a week."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":373.031,"endTime":374.141,"body":"At least twice a week."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":374.141,"endTime":374.411,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":374.411,"endTime":376.361,"body":"And there's all sorts of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":374.411,"endTime":376.361,"body":"ways you can fix that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":376.361,"endTime":377.591,"body":"Now, you can put privacy locks on your"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":377.591,"endTime":377.741,"body":"phone."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":377.741,"endTime":379.031,"body":"You can put time locks on your phone."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":379.211,"endTime":380.651,"body":"Here's a really fun one."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":380.871,"endTime":385.581,"body":"someone built an app that doesn't let you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":380.871,"endTime":385.581,"body":"open any kind of media app on your phone"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":385.791,"endTime":387.591,"body":"unless you literally verify that you've."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":387.611,"endTime":389.741,"body":"Gone outside and touched grass."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":389.921,"endTime":390.161,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":390.161,"endTime":393.287,"body":"you have to open the app and then"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":390.161,"endTime":393.287,"body":"walk outside and find a patch of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":393.311,"endTime":397.391,"body":"grass and reach out with your camera,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":393.311,"endTime":397.391,"body":"facing your hand and touch the grass."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":397.571,"endTime":400.241,"body":"You can't actually use"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":397.571,"endTime":400.241,"body":"anything until you go outside."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":400.581,"endTime":400.971,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":400.971,"endTime":403.611,"body":"Go touch some grass, like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":400.971,"endTime":403.611,"body":"get some perspective."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":403.941,"endTime":405.381,"body":"Cool off for a second."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":405.901,"endTime":408.121,"body":"Yeah, if you've been"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":405.901,"endTime":408.121,"body":"on Reddit any length of time, somebody"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":408.121,"endTime":410.026,"body":"has probably told you to go touch grass."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":411.285,"endTime":412.605,"body":"I love useless apps."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":412.605,"endTime":415.515,"body":"This one though, for me, it's like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":412.605,"endTime":415.515,"body":"I immediately thought like, oh, how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":415.515,"endTime":417.135,"body":"could I, how could I break this?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":417.135,"endTime":417.945,"body":"Could I use this app?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":417.945,"endTime":421.695,"body":"And then like, could I print out a picture"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":417.945,"endTime":421.695,"body":"of grass and, oh, it's probably a little"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":421.695,"endTime":425.355,"body":"more sophisticated than that, but you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":421.695,"endTime":425.355,"body":"know, like, I actually have a bonai tree."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":425.355,"endTime":427.065,"body":"What if I like faked some perspective?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":427.065,"endTime":427.455,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":427.545,"endTime":429.135,"body":"And it thought I was outside."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":429.355,"endTime":431.635,"body":"So that was immediately"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":429.355,"endTime":431.635,"body":"where my mind went with it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":431.965,"endTime":433.975,"body":"Well, you're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":431.965,"endTime":433.975,"body":"illustrating that, for it to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":433.975,"endTime":436.84,"body":"work for me, it would have to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":433.975,"endTime":436.84,"body":"be go touch snow, like, uh,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":437.14,"endTime":438.325,"body":"Oh, very true."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":438.652,"endTime":439.555,"body":"under a foot of snow."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":439.882,"endTime":441.202,"body":"I didn't"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":439.882,"endTime":441.202,"body":"even think of that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":441.202,"endTime":443.062,"body":"What if you're somewhere"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":441.202,"endTime":443.062,"body":"where there is no grass?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":443.132,"endTime":443.222,"body":"I"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":443.222,"endTime":446.132,"body":"think maybe there maybe needs to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":443.222,"endTime":446.132,"body":"be regional variants of this app."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":446.435,"endTime":446.765,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":446.77,"endTime":449.705,"body":"But, you know, this is such, this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":446.77,"endTime":449.705,"body":"is, I think, such an emblematic,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":449.775,"endTime":452.985,"body":"representation of how AI is gonna"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":449.775,"endTime":452.985,"body":"change software development."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":453.265,"endTime":457.355,"body":"Let's set aside, all these engineering"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":453.265,"endTime":457.355,"body":"teams who build these robust platforms"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":457.355,"endTime":462.215,"body":"and need complex orchestration"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":457.355,"endTime":462.215,"body":"of AI agents to, just think about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":462.215,"endTime":465.575,"body":"the everyday person who doesn't"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":462.215,"endTime":465.575,"body":"know how to do all of that stuff."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":466.32,"endTime":469.32,"body":"one of the common reframes about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":466.32,"endTime":469.32,"body":"generative AI is like, it's pretty good"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":469.32,"endTime":474.16,"body":"at building hobby apps, prototypes,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":469.32,"endTime":474.16,"body":"proof of concepts, et cetera."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":474.44,"endTime":478.16,"body":"whether I wanted to like create a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":474.44,"endTime":478.16,"body":"version of this that works for me"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":478.16,"endTime":482.54,"body":"where I can go outside and touch snow,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":478.16,"endTime":482.54,"body":"or if it's somebody who's never built"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":482.54,"endTime":484.73,"body":"software before, but has a great idea."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":485.015,"endTime":490.305,"body":"For a simple app, it's empowering like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":485.015,"endTime":490.305,"body":"all different types of people to create"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":490.335,"endTime":493.635,"body":"new things that they weren't capable"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":490.335,"endTime":493.635,"body":"of doing just a couple of years ago."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":494.68,"endTime":495.58,"body":"I completely agree."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":495.58,"endTime":499.96,"body":"We're heading for a time where anyone"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":495.58,"endTime":499.96,"body":"can spin up very personalized software"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":499.96,"endTime":503.89,"body":"on a whim that can serve a very"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":499.96,"endTime":503.89,"body":"specialized or personal niche for them."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":504.28,"endTime":507.58,"body":"Maybe it doesn't have to work well,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":504.28,"endTime":507.58,"body":"doesn't have to scale literally at all."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":507.61,"endTime":511.96,"body":"We're talking about one user, maybe even"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":507.61,"endTime":511.96,"body":"for a temporary amount of time, and I"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":511.96,"endTime":514.48,"body":"think we're gonna see a proliferation"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":511.96,"endTime":514.48,"body":"of these almost disposable like."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":515.04,"endTime":519.39,"body":"Apps and technologies that pop up"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":515.04,"endTime":519.39,"body":"just to explore an idea or to build"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":519.39,"endTime":522.96,"body":"an on something, or in this case,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":519.39,"endTime":522.96,"body":"maybe even to make a bit of art."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":523.35,"endTime":527.531,"body":"Because I think that AI will ultimately"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":523.35,"endTime":527.531,"body":"lower the barrier for people that are not"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":527.61,"endTime":529.92,"body":"in technology to build and create things."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":530.145,"endTime":534.255,"body":"we saw the same exact thing happen"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":530.145,"endTime":534.255,"body":"with video games, which was a very"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":534.255,"endTime":538.615,"body":"highly technical field, that then"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":534.255,"endTime":538.615,"body":"slowly became democratized by tooling,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":538.895,"endTime":540.695,"body":"to become more accessible to artists."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":540.695,"endTime":543.755,"body":"And now you see video games"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":540.695,"endTime":543.755,"body":"as an artistic medium."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":544.055,"endTime":545.765,"body":"I think you're gonna see"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":544.055,"endTime":545.765,"body":"the same thing happen with"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":545.765,"endTime":547.355,"body":"software and with applications."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":547.635,"endTime":550.635,"body":"because when you unleash it on a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":547.635,"endTime":550.635,"body":"world of people who don't think like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":550.635,"endTime":553.845,"body":"technologists, they're gonna build"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":550.635,"endTime":553.845,"body":"things in totally different ways,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":553.845,"endTime":555.585,"body":"and we're not even ready for it yet."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":556.433,"endTime":558.773,"body":"Yeah, I think there's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":556.433,"endTime":558.773,"body":"a bold prediction you're hiding there"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":558.783,"endTime":563.043,"body":"that I maybe you should own, like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":558.783,"endTime":563.043,"body":"will AI normalize software as art?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":563.223,"endTime":565.03,"body":"I think Andrew Ziegler says yes."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":565.33,"endTime":566.8,"body":"I absolutely think so."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":567.1,"endTime":569.95,"body":"I'm excited to see what kind of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":567.1,"endTime":569.95,"body":"things come out of the future."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":570.483,"endTime":570.723,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":570.813,"endTime":573.843,"body":"Well, I, I love how every topic"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":570.813,"endTime":573.843,"body":"that we talk about, even if it's not"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":573.843,"endTime":575.823,"body":"about AI, always comes back to AI."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":575.853,"endTime":578.013,"body":"I think we've got one"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":575.853,"endTime":578.013,"body":"more AI story, Andrew."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":578.013,"endTime":579.993,"body":"So why don't you cue that one up"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":580.095,"endTime":580.725,"body":"Oh, okay."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":580.725,"endTime":581.055,"body":"Great."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":581.055,"endTime":582.405,"body":"One more AI boomerang for you."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":582.555,"endTime":586.555,"body":"So, this one is, you know,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":582.555,"endTime":586.555,"body":"Amazon AWS, everyone knows it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":586.71,"endTime":591.32,"body":"They formed a group internally that's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":586.71,"endTime":591.32,"body":"focused on agentic ai, this is yet another"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":591.47,"endTime":595.709,"body":"large company we've been talking about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":591.47,"endTime":595.709,"body":"on the podcast, taking yet another,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":595.709,"endTime":600.433,"body":"big move to form, their internal teams"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":595.709,"endTime":600.433,"body":"to put together their greatest minds."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":600.503,"endTime":603.653,"body":"To focus on how AI can"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":600.503,"endTime":603.653,"body":"transform them internally."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":603.903,"endTime":608.323,"body":"and it goes back to, Conway's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":603.903,"endTime":608.323,"body":"Law even, uh, a basic principle"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":608.353,"endTime":611.413,"body":"in software development that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":608.353,"endTime":611.413,"body":"you ship your teams, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":611.413,"endTime":614.263,"body":"Your software products"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":611.413,"endTime":614.263,"body":"reflect your team structure."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":614.503,"endTime":618.643,"body":"And so if AI is important to you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":614.503,"endTime":618.643,"body":"and it needs to be everywhere and it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":618.643,"endTime":621.703,"body":"needs to be parts of your product,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":618.643,"endTime":621.703,"body":"then it's important that you."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":621.933,"endTime":627.617,"body":"Put together a task force, put resources"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":621.933,"endTime":627.617,"body":"behind a diverse group of representations"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":627.617,"endTime":631.757,"body":"of users in your company to figure out how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":627.617,"endTime":631.757,"body":"to make this work and to get it in place."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":632.067,"endTime":635.457,"body":"and you know, we saw this with Goldman"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":632.067,"endTime":635.457,"body":"Sachs, we saw this with Microsoft."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":635.707,"endTime":635.947,"body":"so"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":635.947,"endTime":638.587,"body":"here is yet another one from AWS."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":639.175,"endTime":639.625,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":639.759,"endTime":642.879,"body":"humans managing AI agents"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":639.759,"endTime":642.879,"body":"will eat the world."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":643.239,"endTime":645.489,"body":"You know, we've heard"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":643.239,"endTime":645.489,"body":"software ate the world."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":645.489,"endTime":647.259,"body":"We've heard open source ate software."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":647.589,"endTime":651.819,"body":"I, I think humans managing AI agents"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":647.589,"endTime":651.819,"body":"really is gonna be the future of this all."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":652.209,"endTime":655.142,"body":"And I actually wanna make, just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":652.209,"endTime":655.142,"body":"a completely shameless plug for,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":655.422,"endTime":657.942,"body":"the Engineering Intelligence"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":655.422,"endTime":657.942,"body":"Newsletter over on LinkedIn."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":658.342,"endTime":662.382,"body":"This is a, new newsletter from LinearB"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":658.342,"endTime":662.382,"body":"B that I've been contributing to."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":662.712,"endTime":666.732,"body":"And in last week's edition, we shared"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":662.712,"endTime":666.732,"body":"a whole bunch of practical advice for"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":666.732,"endTime":671.502,"body":"how you can start adopting agentic AI"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":666.732,"endTime":671.502,"body":"into your software delivery lifecycle."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":671.862,"endTime":676.392,"body":"So we have all these giants, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":671.862,"endTime":676.392,"body":"know, Amazon, Microsoft, Google"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":676.392,"endTime":681.372,"body":"Meta, everyone out there is adopting"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":676.392,"endTime":681.372,"body":"agentic AI and there's no reason that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":681.402,"endTime":683.982,"body":"everyone that's listening to this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":681.402,"endTime":683.982,"body":"right now shouldn't also be doing that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":684.747,"endTime":688.557,"body":"So I'm definitely gonna recommend"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":684.747,"endTime":688.557,"body":"everyone go follow LinearB, be"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":688.557,"endTime":691.467,"body":"on LinkedIn, subscribe to the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":688.557,"endTime":691.467,"body":"Engineering Intelligence Newsletter."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":691.737,"endTime":693.957,"body":"A ton of great news happening over there."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":694.448,"endTime":696.333,"body":"Yeah, so Andrew, tell us who do"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":694.448,"endTime":696.333,"body":"we have on the show this week?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":697.31,"endTime":698.87,"body":"Oh, I'm really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":697.31,"endTime":698.87,"body":"excited for this guest."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":698.87,"endTime":702.23,"body":"So after the break, we're bringing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":698.87,"endTime":702.23,"body":"David Mytton onto the pod."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":702.53,"endTime":707.54,"body":"He's the CEO of Arcjet a security SDK"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":702.53,"endTime":707.54,"body":"for developers, and he's the founder"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":707.54,"endTime":711.83,"body":"of console.dev, which is a weekly"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":707.54,"endTime":711.83,"body":"newsletter where he focuses on a curated"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":711.83,"endTime":714.35,"body":"selection of interesting developer tools."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":715.055,"endTime":719.405,"body":"David has a really discerning eye for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":715.055,"endTime":719.405,"body":"what's good and what's not, what you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":719.405,"endTime":720.748,"body":"should use and what you should try."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":721.085,"endTime":725.675,"body":"He tries everything so you don't have"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":721.085,"endTime":725.675,"body":"to, and his experiences go really far."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":725.915,"endTime":728.962,"body":"He has a finger right on what"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":725.915,"endTime":728.962,"body":"makes for a delightful developer"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":728.962,"endTime":732.592,"body":"experience, and I'm really excited"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":728.962,"endTime":732.592,"body":"to share our conversation with y'all."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":732.772,"endTime":736.552,"body":"So stick around for the discussion"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":732.772,"endTime":736.552,"body":"where we talk about the realities"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":736.552,"endTime":740.442,"body":"of shift to left in security"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":736.552,"endTime":740.442,"body":"and the status quo of DevSecOps."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":744.746,"endTime":748.586,"body":"Are you struggling to explain developer"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":744.746,"endTime":748.586,"body":"experience to non-technical leadership?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":749.156,"endTime":753.296,"body":"Join LinearB's upcoming workshop and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":749.156,"endTime":753.296,"body":"learn how to translate Dev X into"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":753.296,"endTime":754.736,"body":"language the business cares about."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":755.366,"endTime":759.086,"body":"We'll show you how to present data on"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":755.366,"endTime":759.086,"body":"developer productivity, AI performance,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":759.146,"endTime":762.686,"body":"and engineering health in ways that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":759.146,"endTime":762.686,"body":"drive alignment and investment."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":763.166,"endTime":767.066,"body":"Plus, you'll get an early access to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":763.166,"endTime":767.066,"body":"our CTO Board deck template, making"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":767.066,"endTime":770.336,"body":"it easy to connect engineering"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":767.066,"endTime":770.336,"body":"metrics to outcomes like faster"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":770.336,"endTime":772.256,"body":"time to market and cost savings."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":772.646,"endTime":774.476,"body":"The link to sign up is in the show notes."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":774.506,"endTime":775.316,"body":"We hope to see there."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":778.073,"endTime":781.713,"body":"I'm delighted to be"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":778.073,"endTime":781.713,"body":"joined by David Mytton, CEO at ArcJet"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":781.743,"endTime":783.103,"body":"and the founder of the Console."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":783.293,"endTime":784.573,"body":"dev weekly newsletter."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":784.913,"endTime":786.713,"body":"David, thank you for joining us today."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":787.134,"endTime":787.824,"body":"Thanks a lot, Andrew."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":788.237,"endTime":791.757,"body":"You're a seasoned developer"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":788.237,"endTime":791.757,"body":"and founder and an angel investor as"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":791.757,"endTime":796.867,"body":"well, and We brought you on the show to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":791.757,"endTime":796.867,"body":"chat about your approach to shift left"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":796.867,"endTime":802.377,"body":"within DevSecOps, which is something that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":796.867,"endTime":802.377,"body":"you describe as largely buzzwords that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":802.387,"endTime":804.867,"body":"haven't achieved their intended impact."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":805.117,"endTime":806.797,"body":"And I really want to start there."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":807.057,"endTime":811.097,"body":"So perhaps you can set the stage"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":807.057,"endTime":811.097,"body":"for us about why the shift left"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":811.097,"endTime":814.857,"body":"approach is applied to DevSecOps and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":811.097,"endTime":814.857,"body":"what are some of the issues with it."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":815.442,"endTime":821.092,"body":"It's really modeled off"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":815.442,"endTime":821.092,"body":"the very successful DevOps philosophy."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":821.412,"endTime":826.152,"body":"And this takes us quite a long way"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":821.412,"endTime":826.152,"body":"back in history to when development"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":826.182,"endTime":828.702,"body":"was entirely about just writing code."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":828.702,"endTime":833.525,"body":"And then you would hand it over to"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":828.702,"endTime":833.525,"body":"somebody else to deal with, In the very"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":833.525,"endTime":835.375,"body":"old days, that was physically shipping it."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":835.415,"endTime":837.375,"body":"And so ops wasn't really a thing."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":837.795,"endTime":842.365,"body":"but as services became more popular and,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":837.795,"endTime":842.365,"body":"we needed to access things that were"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":842.435,"endTime":847.435,"body":"constantly updated, then it became, well,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":842.435,"endTime":847.435,"body":"how do we run the software that we write?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":848.26,"endTime":853.34,"body":"And traditionally you would have sysadmins"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":848.26,"endTime":853.34,"body":"and then later on that broadened out"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":853.44,"endTime":854.91,"body":"into different types of operations."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":854.91,"endTime":859.54,"body":"But essentially it was a separate"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":854.91,"endTime":859.54,"body":"team that would deal with deploying"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":859.59,"endTime":863.67,"body":"and updating and making sure the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":859.59,"endTime":863.67,"body":"infrastructure, the servers and the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":863.67,"endTime":865.98,"body":"network was all running smoothly."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":866.915,"endTime":872.055,"body":"As we moved to more of a cloud"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":866.915,"endTime":872.055,"body":"environment, then the physical side of"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":872.055,"endTime":876.255,"body":"it kind of disappeared, obviously still"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":872.055,"endTime":876.255,"body":"there, but for most people using the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":876.255,"endTime":880.465,"body":"cloud abstracts, the compute, the storage,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":876.255,"endTime":880.465,"body":"the data center, those kinds of things."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":880.505,"endTime":885.185,"body":"And so as more software became involved"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":880.505,"endTime":885.185,"body":"in the operation side of things,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":885.225,"endTime":888.785,"body":"like software defined networking,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":885.225,"endTime":888.785,"body":"the actual virtualization of the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":888.785,"endTime":893.265,"body":"system, it became a question of, how"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":888.785,"endTime":893.265,"body":"do we run this entire environment?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":893.745,"endTime":894.415,"body":"And separating."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":895.36,"endTime":899.45,"body":"Code that, really if you write code,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":895.36,"endTime":899.45,"body":"what's the point if it's never run"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":899.52,"endTime":901.28,"body":"and whose responsibility is that?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":901.32,"endTime":903.58,"body":"And then when something"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":901.32,"endTime":903.58,"body":"breaks, who should fix it?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":904.18,"endTime":906.09,"body":"Operations teams didn't write the code."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":906.09,"endTime":907.67,"body":"So why should they fix it?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":907.67,"endTime":909.0,"body":"Or even could they fix it?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":909.0,"endTime":910.26,"body":"Cause they don't know what's going on."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":910.98,"endTime":915.63,"body":"And so this idea of DevOps just meant"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":910.98,"endTime":915.63,"body":"that developers took more responsibility"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":915.64,"endTime":917.081,"body":"for running the code that they wrote."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":917.63,"endTime":922.47,"body":"And that became testing it and setting"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":917.63,"endTime":922.47,"body":"up CI, CD, as you got closer to"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":922.47,"endTime":925.76,"body":"production, deploying it, and then when"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":922.47,"endTime":925.76,"body":"it's actually running, dealing with"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":925.77,"endTime":928.74,"body":"monitoring and any incidents that happen."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":929.33,"endTime":931.74,"body":"And that was pretty"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":929.33,"endTime":931.74,"body":"successful because it's quite."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":932.245,"endTime":936.415,"body":"Easy for developers to understand why"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":932.245,"endTime":936.415,"body":"do they need to run their software?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":936.955,"endTime":939.455,"body":"It's because what's, why are"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":936.955,"endTime":939.455,"body":"they writing in the first place?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":939.455,"endTime":942.065,"body":"It's to deliver a service or"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":939.455,"endTime":942.065,"body":"to provide something to users."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":942.065,"endTime":947.375,"body":"And so it's, it brings them a lot"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":942.065,"endTime":947.375,"body":"closer to that and you can replicate the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":947.395,"endTime":951.485,"body":"production environment very closely on"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":947.395,"endTime":951.485,"body":"your laptop or in a staging environment."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":951.485,"endTime":954.995,"body":"And so it's a lot easier to understand"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":951.485,"endTime":954.995,"body":"how to actually set it up and test"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":954.995,"endTime":956.255,"body":"it and make sure it's all working."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":957.08,"endTime":962.209,"body":"And so DevSecOps, kind of merged into"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":957.08,"endTime":962.209,"body":"DevSecOps with this idea of, well, if"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":962.209,"endTime":967.379,"body":"we're getting developers to run the code"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":962.209,"endTime":967.379,"body":"that they write and take responsibility"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":967.379,"endTime":972.279,"body":"for it, then why can't they also do the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":967.379,"endTime":972.279,"body":"same thing with security and take what"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":972.289,"endTime":976.689,"body":"the security team had typically done and"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":972.289,"endTime":976.689,"body":"let developers take responsibility for it?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":977.279,"endTime":978.269,"body":"That was kind of the idea."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":978.279,"endTime":979.029,"body":"Does that make sense?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":979.497,"endTime":980.797,"body":"It does,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":979.497,"endTime":980.797,"body":"it does make sense."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":980.817,"endTime":985.747,"body":"And so based upon the story you've"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":980.817,"endTime":985.747,"body":"told, it's really a growing amount of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":985.797,"endTime":989.917,"body":"abstraction and complexity away from"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":985.797,"endTime":989.917,"body":"being maybe a more physical based"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":989.937,"endTime":993.787,"body":"computing solution into something"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":989.937,"endTime":993.787,"body":"that's abstracted in the cloud."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":993.787,"endTime":998.177,"body":"And each step on that process, the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":993.787,"endTime":998.177,"body":"developers get closer and closer"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":998.177,"endTime":1002.107,"body":"to where things are released and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":998.177,"endTime":1002.107,"body":"things are secured and tested."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1002.137,"endTime":1003.737,"body":"Is that kind of what you're describing?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1004.554,"endTime":1005.324,"body":"Yeah, that's right."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1005.324,"endTime":1009.004,"body":"it's giving developers more"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1005.324,"endTime":1009.004,"body":"responsibility so that they can"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1009.004,"endTime":1010.944,"body":"understand everything that goes into."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1011.819,"endTime":1013.509,"body":"Actually running the code that they write."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1013.669,"endTime":1018.579,"body":"And so this then led into the specialism"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1013.669,"endTime":1018.579,"body":"of site reliability engineering, which"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1018.579,"endTime":1021.719,"body":"was popularized by Google and a few"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1018.579,"endTime":1021.719,"body":"other, the larger tech companies."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1022.069,"endTime":1025.659,"body":"Because if developers are running their"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1022.069,"endTime":1025.659,"body":"software, what else is there to do?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1025.849,"endTime":1027.309,"body":"Well, there's quite a lot to do."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1027.339,"endTime":1030.609,"body":"And there's a lot of specialist knowledge"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1027.339,"endTime":1030.609,"body":"involved with large scale systems,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1030.609,"endTime":1034.519,"body":"making sure they're reliable and that"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1030.609,"endTime":1034.519,"body":"when developers are building, they don't"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1034.529,"endTime":1038.439,"body":"have to understand the full details"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1034.529,"endTime":1038.439,"body":"and can build on top of a platform."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1039.204,"endTime":1042.284,"body":"That's kind of what you're doing with the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1039.204,"endTime":1042.284,"body":"cloud, where you're building on top of"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1042.334,"endTime":1044.374,"body":"Amazon or Google or Microsoft's platform."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1044.764,"endTime":1046.794,"body":"They abstract out all the data center."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1046.794,"endTime":1050.494,"body":"And as a user, you just have to think"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1046.794,"endTime":1050.494,"body":"about the particular primitive that"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1050.514,"endTime":1053.694,"body":"you're using, the compute or the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1050.514,"endTime":1053.694,"body":"database or whatever service it is."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1054.074,"endTime":1057.104,"body":"But underlying that there's"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1054.074,"endTime":1057.104,"body":"still a lot of operations work."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1057.104,"endTime":1058.794,"body":"It's just, you're paying"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1057.104,"endTime":1058.794,"body":"someone else to do it."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1059.274,"endTime":1064.704,"body":"And so the idea with DevOps and SRE was"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1059.274,"endTime":1064.704,"body":"that developers can do a lot of things,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1064.874,"endTime":1067.774,"body":"but there are still things that are"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1064.874,"endTime":1067.774,"body":"probably not a good use of their time."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1067.774,"endTime":1071.914,"body":"Or there are specialists that can help"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1067.774,"endTime":1071.914,"body":"build out a platform for larger teams."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1072.374,"endTime":1077.814,"body":"And so SRE became this specialism"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1072.374,"endTime":1077.814,"body":"where they would operate the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1077.854,"endTime":1079.974,"body":"internals and the underlying systems."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1080.744,"endTime":1085.394,"body":"And then they would give tools to the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1080.744,"endTime":1085.394,"body":"developers to allow them to autonomously"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1085.404,"endTime":1087.334,"body":"deploy onto, onto those systems."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1087.874,"endTime":1089.314,"body":"And again, that's worked really well."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1089.324,"endTime":1092.654,"body":"SRE come in and maybe advise on the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1089.324,"endTime":1092.654,"body":"design of a system, and then the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1092.654,"endTime":1096.224,"body":"developers will use the platform"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1092.654,"endTime":1096.224,"body":"and the tools that they've created."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1096.604,"endTime":1100.954,"body":"And ideally SRE are not involved in"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1096.604,"endTime":1100.954,"body":"particular projects, but they are"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1100.974,"endTime":1102.564,"body":"responsible for the whole system."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1102.574,"endTime":1103.264,"body":"The system as a whole."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1103.567,"endTime":1105.497,"body":"the idea with DevSecOps is."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1105.832,"endTime":1106.852,"body":"Basically the same thing."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1107.472,"endTime":1111.462,"body":"Developers should take more responsibility"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1107.472,"endTime":1111.462,"body":"for the security of their software."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1111.762,"endTime":1113.772,"body":"And then when there's a"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1111.762,"endTime":1113.772,"body":"problem, inevitably they're"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1113.772,"endTime":1114.532,"body":"going to have to fix it."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1114.912,"endTime":1118.442,"body":"But perhaps you could have a specialist"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1114.912,"endTime":1118.442,"body":"security team who would give them tools"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1118.642,"endTime":1120.752,"body":"to make that security job a lot easier."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1121.332,"endTime":1123.052,"body":"unfortunately it hasn't"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1121.332,"endTime":1123.052,"body":"really worked out that way."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1123.925,"endTime":1126.285,"body":"And why hasn't it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1123.925,"endTime":1126.285,"body":"worked out that way in execution?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1127.179,"endTime":1129.579,"body":"I think it's"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1127.179,"endTime":1129.579,"body":"down to the incentives."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1130.119,"endTime":1135.939,"body":"So for a software developer, their"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1130.119,"endTime":1135.939,"body":"job is to build things either because"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1135.959,"endTime":1138.539,"body":"they're building an internal system"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1135.959,"endTime":1138.539,"body":"and they have internal customers who"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1138.539,"endTime":1142.788,"body":"need something, or they're externally"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1138.539,"endTime":1142.788,"body":"providing a service, product, service"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1142.788,"endTime":1146.418,"body":"to, to users, and so you've got actually"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1142.788,"endTime":1146.418,"body":"customers paying you to build things."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1146.998,"endTime":1151.138,"body":"So that's the developer's job, build"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1146.998,"endTime":1151.138,"body":"something new, fix bugs, and deliver value"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1151.138,"endTime":1153.028,"body":"to customers, essentially just building."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1153.978,"endTime":1157.088,"body":"The incentives for security"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1153.978,"endTime":1157.088,"body":"people are very different."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1157.658,"endTime":1162.477,"body":"They are either there to break something"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1157.658,"endTime":1162.477,"body":"because they're doing pen testing or"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1162.528,"endTime":1165.898,"body":"looking for vulnerabilities, or they're"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1162.528,"endTime":1165.898,"body":"there to mitigate risk, which generally"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1165.898,"endTime":1167.688,"body":"means stopping things from happening."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1168.228,"endTime":1171.708,"body":"And that is basically the opposite of"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1168.228,"endTime":1171.708,"body":"what developers are responsible for."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1171.908,"endTime":1175.438,"body":"So even before we get into any of"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1171.908,"endTime":1175.438,"body":"the details of specific things that"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1175.438,"endTime":1179.158,"body":"might've failed with DevSecOps, the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1175.438,"endTime":1179.158,"body":"incentives just don't align between the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1179.158,"endTime":1181.208,"body":"security team and the development team."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1181.728,"endTime":1183.398,"body":"They have to work together in many cases."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1183.978,"endTime":1185.188,"body":"Which can be a challenge."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1185.288,"endTime":1190.658,"body":"there's often a lot of friction there, but"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1185.288,"endTime":1190.658,"body":"this fundamental mismatch in incentives"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1191.138,"endTime":1194.258,"body":"is the big problem because everything"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1191.138,"endTime":1194.258,"body":"comes down to incentives really."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1194.726,"endTime":1195.116,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1195.126,"endTime":1198.846,"body":"So the devs are there to build stuff"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1195.126,"endTime":1198.846,"body":"and to make things and security there."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1198.866,"endTime":1201.796,"body":"And sometimes in the devs mind"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1198.866,"endTime":1201.796,"body":"is there to stop things or"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1201.846,"endTime":1203.226,"body":"to halt or slow things down."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1203.586,"endTime":1206.146,"body":"And then the security team only"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1203.586,"endTime":1206.146,"body":"wants things that are secure,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1206.276,"endTime":1207.726,"body":"obviously, to go through."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1207.726,"endTime":1210.596,"body":"So you end up in this state of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1207.726,"endTime":1210.596,"body":"tension, where both of their"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1210.596,"endTime":1214.216,"body":"incentives of what they want out of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1210.596,"endTime":1214.216,"body":"the engineering process are different."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1214.696,"endTime":1220.056,"body":"Is that because of how DevSecOps has"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1214.696,"endTime":1220.056,"body":"shifted the responsibilities more"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1220.076,"endTime":1225.226,"body":"into developers, or is that a response"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1220.076,"endTime":1225.226,"body":"to that tension that is felt between"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1225.226,"endTime":1227.166,"body":"security and dev professionals?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1228.128,"endTime":1231.138,"body":"That was a response"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1228.128,"endTime":1231.138,"body":"because ultimately all vulnerabilities"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1231.138,"endTime":1235.668,"body":"come down to some error or problem"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1231.138,"endTime":1235.668,"body":"in the software that someone has"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1235.668,"endTime":1239.368,"body":"written, or the processes around it,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1235.668,"endTime":1239.368,"body":"and so you always have to involve"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1239.398,"endTime":1241.148,"body":"developers in the security process."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1241.148,"endTime":1242.498,"body":"There's no getting away from that."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1242.563,"endTime":1246.523,"body":"But because the incentives were"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1242.563,"endTime":1246.523,"body":"so different, developers are"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1246.523,"endTime":1247.803,"body":"incentivized to build things."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1247.803,"endTime":1248.37,"body":"They're on deadlines."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1248.613,"endTime":1253.823,"body":"They've got to deliver customer value and"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1248.613,"endTime":1253.823,"body":"security is often a distraction from that."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1253.923,"endTime":1256.063,"body":"Now it's a distraction"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1253.923,"endTime":1256.063,"body":"for very good reasons."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1256.513,"endTime":1262.123,"body":"It's just, it's counter to that incentive"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1256.513,"endTime":1262.123,"body":"or the real goals of developers."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1262.923,"endTime":1268.333,"body":"And I think that's why it's become such"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1262.923,"endTime":1268.333,"body":"a challenge to encourage developers to"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1268.333,"endTime":1270.103,"body":"think about security from the beginning."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1270.553,"endTime":1273.733,"body":"Because if you're in a startup,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1270.553,"endTime":1273.733,"body":"what's the point of securing"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1273.733,"endTime":1275.123,"body":"something if you have no users?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1275.743,"endTime":1279.393,"body":"And as your company gets larger,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1275.743,"endTime":1279.393,"body":"you really only think about security"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1279.403,"endTime":1284.033,"body":"either When you're required to, from"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1279.403,"endTime":1284.033,"body":"a regulation perspective, or when your"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1284.033,"endTime":1288.483,"body":"customers start asking you for details"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1284.033,"endTime":1288.483,"body":"about your system, and that's when"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1288.483,"endTime":1291.993,"body":"the incentives start to align again,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1288.483,"endTime":1291.993,"body":"because there's a customer asking you for"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1291.993,"endTime":1293.543,"body":"something, so you should implement it."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1294.183,"endTime":1298.053,"body":"Otherwise it's really down to the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1294.183,"endTime":1298.053,"body":"developer to put the best efforts"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1298.053,"endTime":1300.783,"body":"in or to do things because they"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1298.053,"endTime":1300.783,"body":"think it's the right thing to do."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1301.403,"endTime":1305.993,"body":"And we know from human behavior that"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1301.403,"endTime":1305.993,"body":"probably people try and do that, but"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1306.013,"endTime":1307.643,"body":"maybe you don't do that all the time."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1308.466,"endTime":1309.236,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1309.286,"endTime":1314.476,"body":"And so if this state of tension is just"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1309.286,"endTime":1314.476,"body":"innate to those roles, what can developers"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1314.486,"endTime":1319.506,"body":"do in security professionals as well to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1314.486,"endTime":1319.506,"body":"bridge that gap and maybe foster that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1319.516,"endTime":1323.436,"body":"more security conscious culture that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1319.516,"endTime":1323.436,"body":"allows them to exist in more harmony?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1324.258,"endTime":1327.878,"body":"I think this is the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1324.258,"endTime":1327.878,"body":"real challenge and it's, developers"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1327.978,"endTime":1332.058,"body":"are not thinking about security"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1327.978,"endTime":1332.058,"body":"problems and, This has given them the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1332.058,"endTime":1334.328,"body":"reputation of not caring about security."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1334.338,"endTime":1337.498,"body":"And I think that was actually"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1334.338,"endTime":1337.498,"body":"just, it, it's the outcome."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1337.498,"endTime":1340.888,"body":"It's what happens as a result of that"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1337.498,"endTime":1340.888,"body":"thinking, but it's not a deliberate thing."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1341.288,"endTime":1344.468,"body":"in most cases, it's just, some"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1341.288,"endTime":1344.468,"body":"cases it's a lack of knowledge."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1344.528,"endTime":1347.648,"body":"Um, but that's not an excuse really."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1347.759,"endTime":1351.149,"body":"companies run education programs and"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1347.759,"endTime":1351.149,"body":"training and it's all really boring."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1351.179,"endTime":1353.779,"body":"And so that's the, that's"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1351.179,"endTime":1353.779,"body":"one of the challenges."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1354.139,"endTime":1354.819,"body":"but it's really about."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1355.669,"endTime":1357.619,"body":"Developers are trying to solve a problem."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1357.709,"endTime":1360.349,"body":"They're not thinking about security"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1357.709,"endTime":1360.349,"body":"because security generally doesn't"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1360.349,"endTime":1361.519,"body":"help them solve that problem."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1362.049,"endTime":1369.659,"body":"And so this means that they might be"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1362.049,"endTime":1369.659,"body":"dealing with API abuse or signup form spam"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1369.789,"endTime":1372.139,"body":"or fraudulent credit card transactions."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1372.139,"endTime":1374.529,"body":"And those are problems that"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1372.139,"endTime":1374.529,"body":"the developer thinks about."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1375.569,"endTime":1379.629,"body":"Now from a security mindset, the solution"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1375.569,"endTime":1379.629,"body":"might be, well, we'll buy a bot detection"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1379.659,"endTime":1385.119,"body":"product or we'll build rate limiting"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1379.659,"endTime":1385.119,"body":"or, use one of the credit card fraud"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1385.149,"endTime":1387.699,"body":"services and those are security solutions."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1387.699,"endTime":1390.779,"body":"But the developer's thinking, in"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1387.699,"endTime":1390.779,"body":"a completely different mindset."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1390.789,"endTime":1393.959,"body":"They're not thinking in terms of a"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1390.789,"endTime":1393.959,"body":"security product they should buy or a"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1393.959,"endTime":1398.469,"body":"particular, acronym that they need to"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1393.959,"endTime":1398.469,"body":"understand and implement in their system."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1398.479,"endTime":1398.991,"body":"They're thinking."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1400.024,"endTime":1403.134,"body":"Loads of people are using my API"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1400.024,"endTime":1403.134,"body":"and it's costing me loads of money."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1403.474,"endTime":1406.804,"body":"or we're getting loads of signups,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1403.474,"endTime":1406.804,"body":"and they're all spam and they're not,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1406.984,"endTime":1411.264,"body":"um, they're not helping our service"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1406.984,"endTime":1411.264,"body":"or we're hurting our, um, reputation"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1411.264,"endTime":1414.034,"body":"with our credit card processor because"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1411.264,"endTime":1414.034,"body":"we're getting loads of chargebacks."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1414.444,"endTime":1418.314,"body":"Those are the problems that developers"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1414.444,"endTime":1418.314,"body":"trying to solve and security needs"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1418.314,"endTime":1419.594,"body":"to provide the security team."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1419.944,"endTime":1423.144,"body":"The security industry needs to provide"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1419.944,"endTime":1423.144,"body":"solutions to developer problems, not"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1423.164,"endTime":1424.824,"body":"try and sell them another product."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1425.617,"endTime":1426.037,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1426.147,"endTime":1430.427,"body":"So this brings us back to the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1426.147,"endTime":1430.427,"body":"core of our topic of shifting left"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1430.427,"endTime":1432.107,"body":"and applying that to DevSecOps."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1432.107,"endTime":1435.067,"body":"And some of what you're touching on"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1432.107,"endTime":1435.067,"body":"now is I think really salient here"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1435.067,"endTime":1438.237,"body":"about part of that is putting the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1435.067,"endTime":1438.237,"body":"right kind of security tools into"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1438.237,"endTime":1440.627,"body":"developers hands earlier in the process."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1440.967,"endTime":1443.367,"body":"It makes it more part of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1440.967,"endTime":1443.367,"body":"their development process."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1443.421,"endTime":1447.961,"body":"journey as they're creating the actual"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1443.421,"endTime":1447.961,"body":"software, and it allows them to have"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1447.971,"endTime":1451.431,"body":"earlier conversations with security"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1447.971,"endTime":1451.431,"body":"about what they're building as well."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1451.741,"endTime":1456.271,"body":"And so what are some emerging trends or"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1451.741,"endTime":1456.271,"body":"tools from your perspective that maybe"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1456.271,"endTime":1461.851,"body":"are delivering on this or making steps"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1456.271,"endTime":1461.851,"body":"to bringing this more into harmony?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1462.506,"endTime":1467.356,"body":"The buzzword right now"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1462.506,"endTime":1467.356,"body":"is Secure by Design, and this has been"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1467.406,"endTime":1469.756,"body":"pushed in particular by governments."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1469.856,"endTime":1474.066,"body":"the US government has a lot of effort"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1469.856,"endTime":1474.066,"body":"going behind that, and the EU has"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1474.356,"endTime":1476.906,"body":"recently passed some laws around defaults."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1477.716,"endTime":1483.106,"body":"Secure by Design is a great idea, and the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1477.716,"endTime":1483.106,"body":"challenge is the actual implementation."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1483.116,"endTime":1483.936,"body":"What does it mean?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1484.676,"endTime":1489.226,"body":"You know, on the consumer side of things,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1484.676,"endTime":1489.226,"body":"it means things like when you buy a new"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1489.226,"endTime":1493.366,"body":"Wi Fi router, it doesn't have a default"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1489.226,"endTime":1493.366,"body":"password, and it can be updated for"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1493.376,"endTime":1496.936,"body":"the next 5 to 10 years, so that when"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1493.376,"endTime":1496.936,"body":"there are vulnerabilities discovered,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1496.936,"endTime":1498.536,"body":"they can be updated automatically."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1498.736,"endTime":1503.286,"body":"That's quite easy to build in security by"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1498.736,"endTime":1503.286,"body":"design, or at least you know how to do it."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1503.356,"endTime":1505.096,"body":"It's, you can put on a checklist."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1505.556,"endTime":1508.316,"body":"It's a little more challenging"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1505.556,"endTime":1508.316,"body":"to do that with the underlying"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1508.446,"endTime":1510.046,"body":"software engineering approach."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1510.356,"endTime":1514.066,"body":"And how do we encourage developers"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1510.356,"endTime":1514.066,"body":"to build security into their products"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1514.066,"endTime":1515.776,"body":"when the incentive isn't there?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1516.771,"endTime":1521.252,"body":"Now, one answer is just change"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1516.771,"endTime":1521.252,"body":"incentives by regulating and force"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1521.431,"endTime":1522.661,"body":"developers to think about this."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1522.661,"endTime":1526.801,"body":"And there's a question around"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1522.661,"endTime":1526.801,"body":"liability and, how the industry works"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1526.811,"endTime":1530.431,"body":"when there's a big vulnerability"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1526.811,"endTime":1530.431,"body":"found, whose responsibility is it?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1530.471,"endTime":1532.401,"body":"Is there a monetary"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1530.471,"endTime":1532.401,"body":"value attached to that?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1532.451,"endTime":1534.661,"body":"that can be a good way to change behavior."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1535.021,"endTime":1540.061,"body":"but as soon as you get regulation"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1535.021,"endTime":1540.061,"body":"involved, then, It becomes, well, who's"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1540.061,"endTime":1542.241,"body":"got the most money to do the lobbying?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1542.531,"endTime":1544.801,"body":"How do you balance the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1542.531,"endTime":1544.801,"body":"different requirements?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1544.801,"endTime":1548.561,"body":"And then regulation increases"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1544.801,"endTime":1548.561,"body":"barriers to entry, which has been"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1548.571,"endTime":1550.091,"body":"the great thing about software."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1550.151,"endTime":1552.201,"body":"Like you literally need no qualifications."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1552.491,"endTime":1554.761,"body":"You can just write code and you"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1552.491,"endTime":1554.761,"body":"can put something online and"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1554.771,"endTime":1558.251,"body":"people can start using it, which is"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1554.771,"endTime":1558.251,"body":"great for innovation, perhaps not"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1558.251,"endTime":1560.011,"body":"so good for safety and security."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1560.424,"endTime":1562.604,"body":"so I think that's the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1560.424,"endTime":1562.604,"body":"big challenge around."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1562.959,"endTime":1567.539,"body":"Security by design in terms of how you"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1562.959,"endTime":1567.539,"body":"actually implement it and enforce it."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1567.839,"endTime":1571.269,"body":"And ideally we don't have the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1567.839,"endTime":1571.269,"body":"government forcing people to do things."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1571.489,"endTime":1575.449,"body":"Maybe that's where it ends up if"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1571.489,"endTime":1575.449,"body":"it doesn't change, but I think the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1575.449,"endTime":1580.049,"body":"fundamental is around behavior and"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1575.449,"endTime":1580.049,"body":"how developers think about this."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1580.299,"endTime":1583.579,"body":"And it's very difficult"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1580.299,"endTime":1583.579,"body":"to change human behavior."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1584.149,"endTime":1589.649,"body":"And so you have to change the underlying"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1584.149,"endTime":1589.649,"body":"system so that developers, people,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1589.659,"endTime":1592.649,"body":"whatever the system is that you're"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1589.659,"endTime":1592.649,"body":"thinking about, the user of that"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1592.649,"endTime":1594.369,"body":"system gets the benefit for free."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1594.529,"endTime":1595.899,"body":"So they don't have to think about it."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1595.909,"endTime":1599.709,"body":"So by using that particular system,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1595.909,"endTime":1599.709,"body":"they automatically get the benefits"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1599.709,"endTime":1603.029,"body":"because the operator of the system"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1599.709,"endTime":1603.029,"body":"or the designer of that system has"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1603.029,"endTime":1604.899,"body":"made that change on your behalf."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1605.409,"endTime":1609.379,"body":"That is the responsibility then of"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1605.409,"endTime":1609.379,"body":"the developers of infrastructure and"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1609.379,"endTime":1613.109,"body":"the tooling to encourage developers"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1609.379,"endTime":1613.109,"body":"to do this or to use these systems"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1613.109,"endTime":1615.269,"body":"that give them security by default."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1616.287,"endTime":1621.187,"body":"So if there's, if there"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1616.287,"endTime":1621.187,"body":"exists a class of tools that allow"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1621.187,"endTime":1626.447,"body":"developers to implement security practices"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1621.187,"endTime":1626.447,"body":"earlier in their process, I'm curious"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1626.447,"endTime":1630.317,"body":"from your perspective, because you have"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1626.447,"endTime":1630.317,"body":"so much experience reviewing hundreds"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1630.317,"endTime":1632.527,"body":"of tools for your newsletter, console."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1632.717,"endTime":1635.487,"body":"dev, which we're going to talk about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1632.717,"endTime":1635.487,"body":"a little bit more in just a moment."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1635.857,"endTime":1640.257,"body":"And when you approach this idea"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1635.857,"endTime":1640.257,"body":"to evaluating these tools or"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1640.257,"endTime":1641.847,"body":"thinking about how can we put."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1642.372,"endTime":1645.712,"body":"Better tools in developers"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1642.372,"endTime":1645.712,"body":"hands earlier in the process."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1645.712,"endTime":1648.852,"body":"What are some of the things that you look"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1645.712,"endTime":1648.852,"body":"for as someone who's looked at a lot of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1648.852,"endTime":1652.912,"body":"tools, and it has become very discerning"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1648.852,"endTime":1652.912,"body":"for, for what we put in developers hands?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1653.963,"endTime":1655.983,"body":"Yeah, so for console."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1656.233,"endTime":1660.743,"body":"dev I've reviewed, um, probably"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1656.233,"endTime":1660.743,"body":"300 or so every year for the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1660.743,"endTime":1662.233,"body":"last four or five years now."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1662.233,"endTime":1666.883,"body":"So I've played a lot with a lot of tools"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1662.233,"endTime":1666.883,"body":"we put into, uh, two or three every week."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1667.183,"endTime":1669.213,"body":"so those are just the ones"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1667.183,"endTime":1669.213,"body":"that actually get through."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1669.293,"endTime":1671.372,"body":"And the first thing I think about is."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1671.513,"endTime":1678.503,"body":"would I use this and having been in the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1671.513,"endTime":1678.503,"body":"industry for almost 20 years, I kind"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1678.503,"endTime":1680.573,"body":"of have a, it's my opinion on this."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1680.932,"endTime":1682.332,"body":"But then there are some specific things."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1682.342,"endTime":1685.372,"body":"So the most common problem that"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1682.342,"endTime":1685.372,"body":"I see with a DevTool is the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1685.372,"endTime":1688.112,"body":"documentation has some flaws."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1688.971,"endTime":1691.401,"body":"Often the quick start"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1688.971,"endTime":1691.401,"body":"guide is fine and it works."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1691.561,"endTime":1692.521,"body":"Sometimes it doesn't."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1692.551,"endTime":1694.691,"body":"And then that's essentially"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1692.551,"endTime":1694.691,"body":"it's off the list straight away."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1694.721,"endTime":1697.421,"body":"Cause if the quick start doesn't work,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1694.721,"endTime":1697.421,"body":"then no one's gonna be able to use it."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1698.151,"endTime":1701.861,"body":"But the common failure scenario is"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1698.151,"endTime":1701.861,"body":"that you, you do the quick start,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1701.881,"endTime":1703.621,"body":"the tool does what is advertised."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1703.871,"endTime":1706.961,"body":"It's got a load of other features,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1703.871,"endTime":1706.961,"body":"but you have no idea how to use them"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1706.961,"endTime":1708.321,"body":"because none of them are documented."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1709.501,"endTime":1710.451,"body":"That's a real problem."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1710.671,"endTime":1713.231,"body":"Developers don't necessarily"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1710.671,"endTime":1713.231,"body":"like writing documentation."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1713.351,"endTime":1717.801,"body":"I spend a lot of time at ArcJet writing"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1713.351,"endTime":1717.801,"body":"documentation for our products, for"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1717.801,"endTime":1721.761,"body":"our security product, just because I"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1717.801,"endTime":1721.761,"body":"know that that is the, like whenever"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1721.761,"endTime":1724.381,"body":"I'm trying a new dev tool, the first"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1721.761,"endTime":1724.381,"body":"thing I'll do is go to the docs."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1724.491,"endTime":1726.521,"body":"And so that needs to"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1724.491,"endTime":1726.521,"body":"be part of the product."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1726.571,"endTime":1728.151,"body":"we consider the docs part of the product."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1728.611,"endTime":1730.123,"body":"the other failure scenario is."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1730.368,"endTime":1735.498,"body":"Once you've done that quick start"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1730.368,"endTime":1735.498,"body":"and it's working, how easy is it to"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1735.528,"endTime":1740.058,"body":"adapt the product to the complexities"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1735.528,"endTime":1740.058,"body":"of whatever it is you're building?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1740.848,"endTime":1744.378,"body":"This is a failure of breaking"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1740.848,"endTime":1744.378,"body":"out of the happy path."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1745.128,"endTime":1751.183,"body":"And a lack of flexibility in the design"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1745.128,"endTime":1751.183,"body":"of the product or a lack of documentation"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1751.183,"endTime":1754.793,"body":"explaining how to use all of the options"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1751.183,"endTime":1754.793,"body":"and the configurations, because most"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1754.793,"endTime":1758.823,"body":"of it, like you see all these templates"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1754.793,"endTime":1758.823,"body":"for like a chat app or how to implement"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1758.833,"endTime":1760.713,"body":"authentication, really straightforward."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1760.923,"endTime":1761.863,"body":"Those are important things."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1761.863,"endTime":1765.64,"body":"And building app is, is really fun,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1761.863,"endTime":1765.64,"body":"but that's not what most apps are and"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1765.91,"endTime":1769.35,"body":"you've got like all sorts of different"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1765.91,"endTime":1769.35,"body":"requirements that customers are asking"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1769.35,"endTime":1772.68,"body":"for, and you're building all these"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1769.35,"endTime":1772.68,"body":"different variants and that's often"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1772.68,"endTime":1777.17,"body":"where DevTools break is because they"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1772.68,"endTime":1777.17,"body":"don't work in these various scenarios."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1777.929,"endTime":1778.579,"body":"That makes sense."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1778.599,"endTime":1781.579,"body":"you're touching on something that,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1778.599,"endTime":1781.579,"body":"um, is very close to my heart,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1781.609,"endTime":1785.019,"body":"especially when you talk about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1781.609,"endTime":1785.019,"body":"documentation and evaluating new tools."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1785.059,"endTime":1788.599,"body":"As a developer advocate, I completely"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1785.059,"endTime":1788.599,"body":"understand the mindset of when you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1788.609,"endTime":1791.499,"body":"go to a new tool and you're trying"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1788.609,"endTime":1791.499,"body":"it out For the first time, there's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1791.499,"endTime":1793.099,"body":"a few gut checks that you do."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1793.109,"endTime":1795.739,"body":"You go to the repo and you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1793.109,"endTime":1795.739,"body":"see, when was the last commit?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1795.779,"endTime":1799.069,"body":"You go to the documentation and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1795.779,"endTime":1799.069,"body":"you look at the quick start guide."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1799.069,"endTime":1800.329,"body":"And is it a chat app?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1800.329,"endTime":1803.599,"body":"And if it is, does it work when"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1800.329,"endTime":1803.599,"body":"you read it from top to bottom?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1803.809,"endTime":1807.209,"body":"so those types of approaches are, I"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1803.809,"endTime":1807.209,"body":"think it's, um, very delightful to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1807.209,"endTime":1810.789,"body":"find that they're universal when other"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1807.209,"endTime":1810.789,"body":"people evaluate software as well."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1811.139,"endTime":1815.429,"body":"And so when you go down this path"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1811.139,"endTime":1815.429,"body":"of evaluating software, and you look"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1815.429,"endTime":1817.349,"body":"at the docs and it's about putting."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1817.439,"endTime":1821.609,"body":"Great examples in developers hands so"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1817.439,"endTime":1821.609,"body":"they can envision the tool, and it's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1821.609,"endTime":1825.979,"body":"about the tool also being flexible"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1821.609,"endTime":1825.979,"body":"for what they're looking to implement."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1825.989,"endTime":1830.089,"body":"Do you see these tools oftentimes"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1825.989,"endTime":1830.089,"body":"as starting grounds, or do you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1830.089,"endTime":1832.719,"body":"see them as holistic solutions?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1832.719,"endTime":1838.404,"body":"Like, are they there to inspire or maybe"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1832.719,"endTime":1838.404,"body":"guide a path for the developer to take?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1838.414,"endTime":1842.424,"body":"Start with this tool and then maybe"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1838.414,"endTime":1842.424,"body":"kind of build it into something else."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1842.474,"endTime":1844.684,"body":"Or do you see it as like a one stop shop?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1844.714,"endTime":1847.504,"body":"Developers need to be looking"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1844.714,"endTime":1847.504,"body":"for like that Swiss army knife."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1848.061,"endTime":1851.001,"body":"This is often the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1848.061,"endTime":1851.001,"body":"distinction between a really great"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1851.011,"endTime":1853.881,"body":"open source tool that someone's"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1851.011,"endTime":1853.881,"body":"built and has become popular"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1853.891,"endTime":1855.871,"body":"and a product from a company."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1856.301,"endTime":1860.061,"body":"And the open source tools,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1856.301,"endTime":1860.061,"body":"typically they solve a problem."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1860.061,"endTime":1862.631,"body":"The good ones, they solve a particular"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1860.061,"endTime":1862.631,"body":"problem really, really well."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1863.041,"endTime":1865.921,"body":"And they might have some side"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1863.041,"endTime":1865.921,"body":"features here and there, but they're"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1865.921,"endTime":1867.541,"body":"very focused on the specific thing."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1868.031,"endTime":1873.651,"body":"And that's great for low level"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1868.031,"endTime":1873.651,"body":"infrastructure, dev tools, terminal"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1873.651,"endTime":1875.141,"body":"interfaces, those kinds of things."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1876.036,"endTime":1880.126,"body":"You don't necessarily want that to"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1876.036,"endTime":1880.126,"body":"become a huge, massive monolithic"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1880.196,"endTime":1882.856,"body":"project with all sorts of"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1880.196,"endTime":1882.856,"body":"different features here and there."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1883.236,"endTime":1886.546,"body":"And there is this concept"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1883.236,"endTime":1886.546,"body":"of software being done."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1887.036,"endTime":1891.173,"body":"And I think very few developers"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1887.036,"endTime":1891.173,"body":"think about products like that."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1891.223,"endTime":1893.793,"body":"certainly startups and businesses,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1891.223,"endTime":1893.793,"body":"can't think about that, I suppose,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1893.823,"endTime":1896.873,"body":"because they're always having to add"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1893.823,"endTime":1896.873,"body":"the next thing for growth, but certainly"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1896.893,"endTime":1898.203,"body":"for open source tools, you can."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1898.363,"endTime":1900.363,"body":"You should consider, well, is this done?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1900.733,"endTime":1904.763,"body":"And there are very few that I see that"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1900.733,"endTime":1904.763,"body":"take that approach, but the ones that do,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1905.113,"endTime":1908.523,"body":"to your point about, well, when was it"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1905.113,"endTime":1908.523,"body":"last updated, perhaps they haven't made"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1908.523,"endTime":1913.513,"body":"any major changes to the code recently,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1908.523,"endTime":1913.513,"body":"other than like putting independency"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1913.533,"endTime":1916.743,"body":"updates and just making sure it continues"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1913.533,"endTime":1916.743,"body":"to work on the platforms that support"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1916.773,"endTime":1918.393,"body":"it, when I see a tool like that."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1918.523,"endTime":1923.153,"body":"And then that is very interesting"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1918.523,"endTime":1923.153,"body":"because it's well maintained, it's"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1923.153,"endTime":1924.943,"body":"within the scope of the original idea."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1924.993,"endTime":1927.653,"body":"It's basically done and it's"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1924.993,"endTime":1927.653,"body":"just in maintenance mode."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1928.233,"endTime":1931.453,"body":"I think that's really rare these days"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1928.233,"endTime":1931.453,"body":"to find software that just like, yeah,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1931.453,"endTime":1935.333,"body":"it's done and we'll maintain it, fix a"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1931.453,"endTime":1935.333,"body":"few bugs, keep dependencies up to date."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1935.343,"endTime":1937.073,"body":"But this, it is what it is."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1938.171,"endTime":1939.151,"body":"That's absolutely right."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1939.151,"endTime":1943.191,"body":"I think, um, done software,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1939.151,"endTime":1943.191,"body":"finished products is very mythical."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1943.191,"endTime":1944.241,"body":"You know, you don't really see those."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1944.406,"endTime":1948.366,"body":"And when you do, you wonder if"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1944.406,"endTime":1948.366,"body":"that is really what they are."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1948.376,"endTime":1949.206,"body":"Are they really done?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1949.562,"endTime":1953.862,"body":"And so, this really brings me"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1949.562,"endTime":1953.862,"body":"to my next topic of console."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1953.862,"endTime":1954.992,"body":"dev just in general."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1955.172,"endTime":1958.852,"body":"I'd love to learn a little more"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1955.172,"endTime":1958.852,"body":"about, how this newsletter came to be."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1958.852,"endTime":1960.142,"body":"I myself have checked out console."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1960.402,"endTime":1960.652,"body":"dev."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1960.662,"endTime":1962.682,"body":"You make great tool recommendations."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1962.732,"endTime":1966.252,"body":"what I personally, love about, the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1962.732,"endTime":1966.252,"body":"newsletter, and I'm sure our readers"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1966.252,"endTime":1970.072,"body":"and listeners will as well, is that it's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1966.252,"endTime":1970.072,"body":"very straightforward, but opinionated"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1970.082,"endTime":1973.932,"body":"in a way where I'm like, I could"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1970.082,"endTime":1973.932,"body":"get behind, this tool, yes or no."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1973.942,"endTime":1976.512,"body":"I can go through the list and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1973.942,"endTime":1976.512,"body":"understand if it's going to work for me."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1976.802,"endTime":1980.182,"body":"so I'm kind of curious, how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1976.802,"endTime":1980.182,"body":"did you cultivate that voice?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1980.182,"endTime":1982.892,"body":"And what inspired you to go"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1980.182,"endTime":1982.892,"body":"down this road of, uh, sharing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1982.892,"endTime":1984.312,"body":"developer tools more broadly?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1985.049,"endTime":1988.269,"body":"Well, it's really just"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1985.049,"endTime":1988.269,"body":"my opinion on things condensed into"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1988.329,"endTime":1991.449,"body":"300 characters of what I like, 300"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1988.329,"endTime":1991.449,"body":"characters of what I don't like,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1991.499,"endTime":1994.999,"body":"that is the unique bit that I still"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1991.499,"endTime":1994.999,"body":"haven't seen anywhere else, really."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1995.009,"endTime":1996.739,"body":"And it's only on a newsletter format."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1997.32,"endTime":2000.94,"body":"there's lots of really great newsletters"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":1997.32,"endTime":2000.94,"body":"and often they're just loads of links"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2000.97,"endTime":2004.18,"body":"and they're just the interesting things"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2000.97,"endTime":2004.18,"body":"that happened in the period that the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2004.18,"endTime":2006.34,"body":"newsletter is sent and that's great."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2006.35,"endTime":2010.06,"body":"It's a good format, but it's"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2006.35,"endTime":2010.06,"body":"kind of passive reading."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2010.07,"endTime":2011.13,"body":"You might not read it every week."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2011.13,"endTime":2013.71,"body":"You probably might not discover"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2011.13,"endTime":2013.71,"body":"anything interesting every week."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2013.895,"endTime":2015.285,"body":"and it's just general interest."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2015.495,"endTime":2020.355,"body":"When I was thinking, before I started"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2015.495,"endTime":2020.355,"body":"console, I just wanted to know, how do"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2020.355,"endTime":2023.995,"body":"I stay up to date with all the things"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2020.355,"endTime":2023.995,"body":"that are happening in tech and software,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2024.295,"endTime":2029.825,"body":"in the cloud and services, open source,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2024.295,"endTime":2029.825,"body":"and whilst you find those things on"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2029.955,"endTime":2034.735,"body":"Reddit and Hacker News and Twitter and"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2029.955,"endTime":2034.735,"body":"BlueSky and all their various social"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2034.735,"endTime":2040.027,"body":"networks, there was nowhere that was"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2034.735,"endTime":2040.027,"body":"focused purely on developer tools and, uh,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2044.207,"endTime":2047.127,"body":"And then there was no recommendation that"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2044.207,"endTime":2047.127,"body":"you might see someone tweet something."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2047.127,"endTime":2049.817,"body":"And then next thing they'll be"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2047.127,"endTime":2049.817,"body":"tweeting, something else or a photo."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2049.817,"endTime":2052.157,"body":"And there's no this"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2049.817,"endTime":2052.157,"body":"consistent discovery engine."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2052.577,"endTime":2053.677,"body":"And so I thought, well."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2054.092,"endTime":2057.172,"body":"I could do that because I"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2054.092,"endTime":2057.172,"body":"like playing with DevTools."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2057.212,"endTime":2058.302,"body":"I really love technology."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2058.562,"endTime":2063.422,"body":"and I have an opinion on what works"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2058.562,"endTime":2063.422,"body":"and where, because I've run services"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2063.422,"endTime":2066.432,"body":"that scale, I've built software in"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2063.422,"endTime":2066.432,"body":"different languages, I don't know every"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2066.432,"endTime":2070.342,"body":"language and every tech stack, but"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2066.432,"endTime":2070.342,"body":"I can probably assess something in a"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2070.342,"endTime":2071.042,"body":"way that another tech stack doesn't."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2071.502,"endTime":2076.122,"body":"Experience developer would do and the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2071.502,"endTime":2076.122,"body":"goal with the newsletter is to give you"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2076.132,"endTime":2080.022,"body":"something at least once a month that"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2076.132,"endTime":2080.022,"body":"you actually think, yes, this is great."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2080.062,"endTime":2082.202,"body":"I could use this personally or at work."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2082.666,"endTime":2086.602,"body":"Maybe you'll find more tools, but"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2082.666,"endTime":2086.602,"body":"at least once a month is the goal."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2086.876,"endTime":2089.066,"body":"I subscribed to several thousand blogs."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2089.066,"endTime":2090.946,"body":"I've got a feed reader, I've got filters."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2090.946,"endTime":2094.356,"body":"I've got automated scripts that"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2090.946,"endTime":2094.356,"body":"just highlight all the new beta"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2094.356,"endTime":2096.016,"body":"and alpha releases of tools."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2096.386,"endTime":2098.009,"body":"And then the reviews of tools are."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2099.191,"endTime":2101.991,"body":"It's just things I come across and it"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2099.191,"endTime":2101.991,"body":"might be a brand new thing that was"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2101.991,"endTime":2106.021,"body":"just released, or it could be something"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2101.991,"endTime":2106.021,"body":"that's been out for 10 years and I've"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2106.021,"endTime":2109.501,"body":"just discovered it or I've been using"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2106.021,"endTime":2109.501,"body":"it recently, or there's been a new"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2109.501,"endTime":2111.391,"body":"version that I want to have a look at."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2111.691,"endTime":2114.251,"body":"So it's all sorts of different things"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2111.691,"endTime":2114.251,"body":"and there's no particular theme"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2114.281,"endTime":2116.431,"body":"other than DevTools that are good."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2117.349,"endTime":2121.149,"body":"And I'm curious too, when,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2117.349,"endTime":2121.149,"body":"when you have reception from folks who"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2121.149,"endTime":2124.209,"body":"read your newsletter and they say, Oh,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2121.149,"endTime":2124.209,"body":"I loved this, or I didn't like that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2124.219,"endTime":2128.739,"body":"What are some of the things that,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2124.219,"endTime":2128.739,"body":"or challenges or pain points even,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2129.049,"endTime":2133.109,"body":"that you think developers look for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2129.049,"endTime":2133.109,"body":"very often in your content that,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2133.429,"endTime":2134.949,"body":"for your tools to solve for them?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2135.286,"endTime":2139.496,"body":"the key thing with the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2135.286,"endTime":2139.496,"body":"why I don't like section is it's less"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2140.026,"endTime":2141.786,"body":"about, this sucks about the tool."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2141.786,"endTime":2144.726,"body":"It's more, these are the limitations of"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2141.786,"endTime":2144.726,"body":"the tool that you're going to discover."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2144.726,"endTime":2148.026,"body":"If you try it out in five or 10"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2144.726,"endTime":2148.026,"body":"minutes, you'll discover these things."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2148.376,"endTime":2150.956,"body":"and because I only include things I"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2148.376,"endTime":2150.956,"body":"think are actually worth your time."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2150.956,"endTime":2153.876,"body":"It's never, I don't feature tools I"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2150.956,"endTime":2153.876,"body":"think are bad, but there's nothing"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2153.876,"endTime":2155.176,"body":"that is a hundred percent good."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2155.706,"endTime":2157.486,"body":"And so it's really looking at."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2158.426,"endTime":2160.786,"body":"Well, what do developers"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2158.426,"endTime":2160.786,"body":"use on a regular basis?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2160.786,"endTime":2162.446,"body":"They're on their laptop, their system."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2162.496,"endTime":2167.966,"body":"So terminal utilities, ID integrations,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2162.496,"endTime":2167.966,"body":"things that help them write software."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2168.296,"endTime":2171.866,"body":"And then there's cloud utilities,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2168.296,"endTime":2171.866,"body":"products as well that can be commercial"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2171.866,"endTime":2174.306,"body":"products, things you have to pay"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2171.866,"endTime":2174.306,"body":"for, but things that are going to"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2174.326,"endTime":2175.756,"body":"help developers with their job."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2176.047,"endTime":2177.177,"body":"Um, it might be a paid editor."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2177.647,"endTime":2180.977,"body":"It might be a cloud service that is"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2177.647,"endTime":2180.977,"body":"part of their core infrastructure."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2181.327,"endTime":2184.097,"body":"It's really anything that a"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2181.327,"endTime":2184.097,"body":"developer might want to use."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2184.147,"endTime":2187.567,"body":"so the most popular things"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2184.147,"endTime":2187.567,"body":"that show up are editors."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2187.597,"endTime":2190.367,"body":"I think most everyone"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2187.597,"endTime":2190.367,"body":"probably uses VS code."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2190.637,"endTime":2193.807,"body":"There's been an explosion recently"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2190.637,"endTime":2193.807,"body":"of lots of really interesting new"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2193.847,"endTime":2196.367,"body":"editors, whether it's kind of VS code."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2196.537,"endTime":2199.907,"body":"Forks that have added loads of"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2196.537,"endTime":2199.907,"body":"cool AI stuff, or it's brand"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2199.907,"endTime":2203.477,"body":"new editors, like Zed, which is"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2199.907,"endTime":2203.477,"body":"implemented in Rust from scratch."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2203.777,"endTime":2207.977,"body":"there's like Mac specific ones like"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2203.777,"endTime":2207.977,"body":"Nova, there's Vim of course, and all the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2207.997,"endTime":2209.257,"body":"different plugins that you might have."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2209.551,"endTime":2211.861,"body":"there's a lot of really interesting"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2209.551,"endTime":2211.861,"body":"innovation happening just on the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2211.861,"endTime":2215.381,"body":"editor side of things, and that tends"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2211.861,"endTime":2215.381,"body":"to be the most popular category."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2216.009,"endTime":2216.769,"body":"Oh, completely."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2216.769,"endTime":2220.529,"body":"I think the developers get very specific"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2216.769,"endTime":2220.529,"body":"about things, have dot files and they can"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2220.529,"endTime":2224.119,"body":"configure in that kind of way, especially"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2220.529,"endTime":2224.119,"body":"when you get really close to the IDE and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2224.119,"endTime":2227.149,"body":"you're touching on something that I've"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2224.119,"endTime":2227.149,"body":"noticed in the last year or two years is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2227.149,"endTime":2231.089,"body":"that you're getting these tool categories"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2227.149,"endTime":2231.089,"body":"that have typically been kind of, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2231.089,"endTime":2234.799,"body":"know, So, Quote unquote solved for, in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2231.089,"endTime":2234.799,"body":"many ways, suddenly getting disrupted,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2234.849,"endTime":2238.459,"body":"obviously, by AI and transformation"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2234.849,"endTime":2238.459,"body":"in general within the tech industry."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2238.829,"endTime":2244.435,"body":"And I'm curious, what are some of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2238.829,"endTime":2244.435,"body":"the, biggest pitfalls that you see new"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2244.455,"endTime":2248.955,"body":"innovative products like fall into when"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2244.455,"endTime":2248.955,"body":"they try to reinvent a category, or re"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2248.955,"endTime":2252.185,"body":"approach something that developers in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2248.955,"endTime":2252.185,"body":"their minds, you know, think has solved?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2252.989,"endTime":2255.689,"body":"The most interesting"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2252.989,"endTime":2255.689,"body":"one, I think, is probably the terminal."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2255.799,"endTime":2258.809,"body":"I thought, the terminal has"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2255.799,"endTime":2258.809,"body":"been installed, that is done."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2258.809,"endTime":2265.009,"body":"You're either using iTerm, or you're"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2258.809,"endTime":2265.009,"body":"using the one that's built into macOS."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2265.009,"endTime":2267.909,"body":"Windows obviously has one as"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2265.009,"endTime":2267.909,"body":"well, and Linux has a couple."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2267.929,"endTime":2270.704,"body":"Alacrity and, uh, Um, Kitty"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2267.929,"endTime":2270.704,"body":"and a few others like that."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2271.024,"endTime":2273.444,"body":"but I essentially thought this is solved."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2273.504,"endTime":2274.494,"body":"It's open source."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2274.494,"endTime":2275.461,"body":"There's never a business here."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2275.894,"endTime":2279.444,"body":"And we've seen some interesting"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2275.894,"endTime":2279.444,"body":"startups appear, which I still have"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2279.444,"endTime":2282.644,"body":"some skepticism about the business"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2279.444,"endTime":2282.644,"body":"model around selling a terminal."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2282.924,"endTime":2285.834,"body":"but I think there's going to be lots of,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2282.924,"endTime":2285.834,"body":"there is a lot of work happening there."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2286.124,"endTime":2289.064,"body":"I think AI makes terminals particularly."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2289.594,"endTime":2293.104,"body":"More interesting, but it's because of"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2289.594,"endTime":2293.104,"body":"having to remember all the commands."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2293.104,"endTime":2294.234,"body":"You're going to remember a lot of them."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2294.664,"endTime":2298.444,"body":"very few people actually read the manual,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2294.664,"endTime":2298.444,"body":"and don't know the man command and"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2298.444,"endTime":2300.364,"body":"it's sometimes not even that helpful."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2301.104,"endTime":2303.464,"body":"So I think that's where AI"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2301.104,"endTime":2303.464,"body":"can make a lot of difference."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2303.804,"endTime":2306.754,"body":"people have a lot of opinions on"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2303.804,"endTime":2306.754,"body":"their terminal editor, the terminal"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2306.794,"endTime":2308.084,"body":"emulator that they're using."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2308.134,"endTime":2312.164,"body":"and I think it's a very tricky, sector"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2308.134,"endTime":2312.164,"body":"to get into, almost as difficult as"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2312.164,"endTime":2316.494,"body":"code editors because developers, my"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2312.164,"endTime":2316.494,"body":"experience, don't pay for anything ever"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2316.524,"endTime":2318.309,"body":"except for their editor, um, by default."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2318.469,"endTime":2321.929,"body":"But the company may buy things"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2318.469,"endTime":2321.929,"body":"for them and that's where"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2321.929,"endTime":2323.289,"body":"the additional tools come in."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2323.299,"endTime":2326.849,"body":"But as far as the developer individual"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2323.299,"endTime":2326.849,"body":"paying for stuff, it's very, very"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2326.849,"endTime":2328.869,"body":"unusual, apart from the editor itself."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2329.109,"endTime":2332.539,"body":"so I think there's an opportunity"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2329.109,"endTime":2332.539,"body":"there and we've seen a few startups and"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2332.999,"endTime":2335.329,"body":"adding and innovating on that as well."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2335.895,"endTime":2337.925,"body":"you touch on something"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2335.895,"endTime":2337.925,"body":"very funny to me, which is, you know,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2337.925,"endTime":2340.135,"body":"developers don't like to pay for products."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2340.135,"endTime":2345.195,"body":"And maybe this is something that it gets"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2340.135,"endTime":2345.195,"body":"to the root of the differences between"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2345.195,"endTime":2349.245,"body":"their incentives with the business and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2345.195,"endTime":2349.245,"body":"with security even as well, because"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2349.245,"endTime":2353.515,"body":"developers, just want to build, they want"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2349.245,"endTime":2353.515,"body":"to make, and they want to create and their"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2353.535,"endTime":2356.795,"body":"tools that they use, they need to delight"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2353.535,"endTime":2356.795,"body":"them, they need to have The ability"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2356.795,"endTime":2358.235,"body":"to do the things that they need to."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2358.245,"endTime":2360.655,"body":"They're, they're less interested in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2358.245,"endTime":2360.655,"body":"like, Oh, what's the pricing model?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2360.655,"endTime":2361.915,"body":"What's the subscription tiers?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2361.915,"endTime":2366.225,"body":"What are the things that I need for the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2361.915,"endTime":2366.225,"body":"enterprise level in order to deliver XYZ?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2366.455,"endTime":2370.905,"body":"So do you find that when developer"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2366.455,"endTime":2370.905,"body":"tools are evaluated, it's almost like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2370.905,"endTime":2373.075,"body":"they're evaluated in two different ways."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2373.075,"endTime":2375.905,"body":"You have the business evaluating"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2373.075,"endTime":2375.905,"body":"it for the business needs."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2375.905,"endTime":2379.195,"body":"You have the developers evaluating"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2375.905,"endTime":2379.195,"body":"it for the developer needs."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2379.435,"endTime":2384.195,"body":"How often are those in conflict to adjust"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2379.435,"endTime":2384.195,"body":"like how developers and security are?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2384.797,"endTime":2387.767,"body":"This has been an ongoing"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2384.797,"endTime":2387.767,"body":"challenge, I think, linked to the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2387.767,"endTime":2393.297,"body":"sustainability of open source and how"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2387.767,"endTime":2393.297,"body":"very popular and important projects"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2393.807,"endTime":2397.627,"body":"have historically been developed by"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2393.807,"endTime":2397.627,"body":"one or two people and not full time,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2397.647,"endTime":2399.137,"body":"and there's been huge burden on them."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2399.637,"endTime":2403.897,"body":"And then when you charge developers"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2399.637,"endTime":2403.897,"body":"for things that you go on, on Reddit"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2403.977,"endTime":2407.077,"body":"and people are complaining a lot"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2403.977,"endTime":2407.077,"body":"about, well, I don't want to pay 10"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2407.077,"endTime":2410.817,"body":"a month for this Critical service"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2407.077,"endTime":2410.817,"body":"that I'm using in my side project, or"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2410.817,"endTime":2414.037,"body":"they write up about how they saved a"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2410.817,"endTime":2414.037,"body":"hundred dollars a month by spending"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2414.037,"endTime":2415.657,"body":"four weeks building a custom system."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2416.442,"endTime":2420.632,"body":"And so there's this real disconnect"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2416.442,"endTime":2420.632,"body":"between the value that developers get"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2420.932,"endTime":2425.052,"body":"and the value that they think they're"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2420.932,"endTime":2425.052,"body":"getting and how they attach a dollar"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2425.052,"endTime":2428.762,"body":"amount to that, and I think that's"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2425.052,"endTime":2428.762,"body":"where, when you're building a DevTools"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2428.802,"endTime":2432.972,"body":"company, the developer might be the user,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2428.802,"endTime":2432.972,"body":"but the developer is very rarely the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2432.982,"endTime":2438.162,"body":"buyer and it's very difficult to sell"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2432.982,"endTime":2438.162,"body":"the value to an individual developer."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2439.167,"endTime":2442.028,"body":"This has become a thing, certainly in"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2439.167,"endTime":2442.028,"body":"the last five or 10 years as DevTools"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2442.028,"endTime":2446.837,"body":"startups have become a real thing because"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2442.028,"endTime":2446.837,"body":"developers have a lot of influence."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2446.907,"endTime":2450.307,"body":"And that's how you can really"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2446.907,"endTime":2450.307,"body":"sell into organizations is when"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2450.307,"endTime":2452.757,"body":"developers love a product, then"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2450.307,"endTime":2452.757,"body":"they're going to recommend it."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2452.767,"endTime":2455.067,"body":"They may not buy it themselves,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2452.767,"endTime":2455.067,"body":"but they will recommend it."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2455.077,"endTime":2458.187,"body":"And then they can get access to the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2455.077,"endTime":2458.187,"body":"budget or convince the budget holder."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2458.767,"endTime":2459.897,"body":"But it's a real."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2460.127,"endTime":2464.497,"body":"Tension because people don't like"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2460.127,"endTime":2464.497,"body":"it when services shut down or when"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2464.497,"endTime":2467.617,"body":"they get acquired and often it's"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2464.497,"endTime":2467.617,"body":"because they couldn't figure out the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2467.617,"endTime":2471.097,"body":"sustainable business model behind"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2467.617,"endTime":2471.097,"body":"whatever it is that they're building."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2471.991,"endTime":2475.651,"body":"If the developer is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2471.991,"endTime":2475.651,"body":"the champion and not the buyer for the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2475.651,"endTime":2481.091,"body":"software, or they're the advocate for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2475.651,"endTime":2481.091,"body":"its usage, what are some key principles"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2481.091,"endTime":2485.101,"body":"or best practices that you would give"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2481.091,"endTime":2485.101,"body":"to like a DevToolings company or new"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2485.121,"endTime":2490.431,"body":"kind of tool that's trying to strike"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2485.121,"endTime":2490.431,"body":"a balance between appealing to that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2490.441,"endTime":2492.721,"body":"champion and appealing to that buyer?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2493.353,"endTime":2495.133,"body":"I think you"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2493.353,"endTime":2495.133,"body":"have to take it in stages."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2495.193,"endTime":2500.293,"body":"So you have to work for the user first,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2495.193,"endTime":2500.293,"body":"because if you don't have the user,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2500.603,"endTime":2504.503,"body":"then you either go out of business"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2500.603,"endTime":2504.503,"body":"or you have to take the approach"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2504.543,"endTime":2506.723,"body":"of forcing people to use things."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2506.773,"endTime":2510.013,"body":"And we've all been forced to use"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2506.773,"endTime":2510.013,"body":"horrible systems, probably some kind of"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2510.174,"endTime":2511.813,"body":"expense management system that we hate."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2512.693,"endTime":2515.373,"body":"And that's because the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2512.693,"endTime":2515.373,"body":"user isn't the buyer."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2515.593,"endTime":2519.043,"body":"the buyer is some other department"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2515.593,"endTime":2519.043,"body":"within the company That deals with a"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2519.043,"endTime":2520.343,"body":"completely different part of the product."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2520.413,"endTime":2522.233,"body":"and so the user experience is terrible."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2522.643,"endTime":2528.313,"body":"And so that's where we're doing some,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2522.643,"endTime":2528.313,"body":"what I think is a, an unusual approach"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2528.313,"endTime":2531.363,"body":"with security is because most security"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2528.313,"endTime":2531.363,"body":"products target security people."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2532.088,"endTime":2533.928,"body":"And we'll have to go there at some point."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2533.968,"endTime":2536.888,"body":"We'll have to build features for"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2533.968,"endTime":2536.888,"body":"security people, but most security"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2536.888,"endTime":2538.368,"body":"products are not built for developers."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2538.378,"endTime":2540.238,"body":"And that's what we're"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2538.378,"endTime":2540.238,"body":"trying to do with ArcJet."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2540.578,"endTime":2544.538,"body":"And then later we'll go to, the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2540.578,"endTime":2544.538,"body":"security organization and the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2544.558,"endTime":2548.538,"body":"infrastructure team and the CTO and"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2544.558,"endTime":2548.538,"body":"show them the value that we're adding."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2548.538,"endTime":2551.178,"body":"And hopefully it'll be obvious,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2548.538,"endTime":2551.178,"body":"but the developer is going"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2551.178,"endTime":2552.698,"body":"to be adopting the product."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2553.278,"endTime":2558.018,"body":"The big challenge is that you can't just"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2553.278,"endTime":2558.018,"body":"put an ad in front of a developer and"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2558.018,"endTime":2559.958,"body":"expect them to sign up as a result of it."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2560.933,"endTime":2566.573,"body":"That does happen, but normally they will"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2560.933,"endTime":2566.573,"body":"have seen the products many times before"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2566.783,"endTime":2569.533,"body":"in different forms, they might've seen"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2566.783,"endTime":2569.533,"body":"a YouTube video, they might've heard"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2569.783,"endTime":2571.363,"body":"someone talk about it on a podcast."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2571.373,"endTime":2573.083,"body":"Then they read a comment somewhere."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2573.273,"endTime":2576.603,"body":"And then when they see an ad or maybe"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2573.273,"endTime":2576.603,"body":"a blog post or something completely"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2576.603,"endTime":2579.493,"body":"different, they click through and"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2576.603,"endTime":2579.493,"body":"that's when they take the action."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2579.993,"endTime":2585.043,"body":"And this makes marketing to developers"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2579.993,"endTime":2585.043,"body":"very, very difficult because they are"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2585.143,"endTime":2588.873,"body":"very, very astute and they know when"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2585.143,"endTime":2588.873,"body":"they're being marketed to, But it's"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2588.873,"endTime":2592.473,"body":"also very expensive because you have"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2588.873,"endTime":2592.473,"body":"to cover every single channel and you"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2592.473,"endTime":2594.453,"body":"don't know which ones are working."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2595.213,"endTime":2600.913,"body":"And I think this is what has made the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2595.213,"endTime":2600.913,"body":"rise of influencers, particularly on"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2600.913,"endTime":2605.233,"body":"YouTube, become an interesting phenomenon"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2600.913,"endTime":2605.233,"body":"over the last few years, because it is"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2605.713,"endTime":2608.643,"body":"social proof from someone that you trust."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2608.783,"endTime":2613.163,"body":"And although it is still marketing and"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2608.783,"endTime":2613.163,"body":"there are sponsors and, and they take"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2613.163,"endTime":2616.393,"body":"money for different things and they're,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2613.163,"endTime":2616.393,"body":"they're usually very upfront about that."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2616.773,"endTime":2619.553,"body":"it is expensive and developers"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2616.773,"endTime":2619.553,"body":"are probably one of the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2619.553,"endTime":2621.763,"body":"hardest groups to sell to."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2622.336,"endTime":2622.916,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2622.916,"endTime":2624.766,"body":"Developers are very astute."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2625.016,"endTime":2629.006,"body":"I say as someone myself who's evaluated"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2625.016,"endTime":2629.006,"body":"many DevTools and used every trick"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2629.006,"endTime":2633.156,"body":"possible to escape around those"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2629.006,"endTime":2633.156,"body":"lead gen forms or to otherwise get"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2633.156,"endTime":2634.566,"body":"my hands on what I'm looking for."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2634.576,"endTime":2639.456,"body":"Or if I'm evaluating doing so almost like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2634.576,"endTime":2639.456,"body":"I'm behind enemy lines and I'm incognito."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2639.456,"endTime":2641.476,"body":"I don't want them to know"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2639.456,"endTime":2641.476,"body":"I'm here looking at it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2641.476,"endTime":2642.586,"body":"I don't want the emails."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2642.586,"endTime":2643.876,"body":"I don't want the blog posts."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2643.926,"endTime":2646.126,"body":"I don't want my LinkedIn"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2643.926,"endTime":2646.126,"body":"feed to change, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2646.136,"endTime":2650.156,"body":"so that's kind of an interesting dynamic,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2646.136,"endTime":2650.156,"body":"of course, when developers do go in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2650.156,"endTime":2653.776,"body":"and evaluate their tools, which goes"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2650.156,"endTime":2653.776,"body":"back to what you you mentioned earlier"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2653.776,"endTime":2658.256,"body":"about being a really strong thing you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2653.776,"endTime":2658.256,"body":"must do of having great documentation,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2658.306,"endTime":2662.406,"body":"because that is where they go to find"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2658.306,"endTime":2662.406,"body":"out those things when they don't want"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2662.406,"endTime":2666.076,"body":"to be marketed to, they want to go"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2662.406,"endTime":2666.076,"body":"read the documentation, which can be"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2666.076,"endTime":2669.716,"body":"its own form of marketing, just like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2666.076,"endTime":2669.716,"body":"how the influencers on YouTube can be."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2670.086,"endTime":2671.646,"body":"but the difference here."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2671.806,"endTime":2675.336,"body":"is that you're allowing the developers to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2671.806,"endTime":2675.336,"body":"evaluate and draw their own conclusions."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2675.526,"endTime":2679.436,"body":"And I, I think that that's, really the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2675.526,"endTime":2679.436,"body":"heart of what helps developers evaluate"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2679.436,"endTime":2683.846,"body":"the best tools is when they're evaluating"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2679.436,"endTime":2683.846,"body":"it for themselves on their own standards"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2683.846,"endTime":2686.016,"body":"and basis, not on someone else's rubric."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2686.206,"endTime":2686.866,"body":"Do you agree?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2686.888,"endTime":2688.568,"body":"that's,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2686.888,"endTime":2688.568,"body":"yeah, that's exactly right."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2688.898,"endTime":2693.508,"body":"And what you just described is how not to"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2688.898,"endTime":2693.508,"body":"do developer marketing, like force them"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2693.508,"endTime":2697.418,"body":"through a form or just speak to someone,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2693.508,"endTime":2697.418,"body":"like you'd look at any of the good dev"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2697.418,"endTime":2701.358,"body":"tools, any product that developers are"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2697.418,"endTime":2701.358,"body":"involved and you can go on the website"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2701.638,"endTime":2705.368,"body":"and firstly, you'll go and scan the docs"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2701.638,"endTime":2705.368,"body":"and the docs should give you a very good"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2705.368,"endTime":2709.378,"body":"sense of how to set it up and the value"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2705.368,"endTime":2709.378,"body":"that you're going to get very quickly."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2709.379,"endTime":2709.393,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2710.193,"endTime":2711.713,"body":"And then you should just"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2710.193,"endTime":2711.713,"body":"be able to try the product."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2712.203,"endTime":2715.953,"body":"You have to be able to sign up, install"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2712.203,"endTime":2715.953,"body":"it, run it locally, probably, or in"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2715.953,"endTime":2720.213,"body":"whichever environment it's going to"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2715.953,"endTime":2720.213,"body":"be and actually test it out and 99"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2720.213,"endTime":2723.673,"body":"percent of the time, you're going to"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2720.213,"endTime":2723.673,"body":"log in with GitHub, probably, maybe"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2723.673,"endTime":2726.643,"body":"Google, but certainly GitHub and"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2723.673,"endTime":2726.643,"body":"you're going to get a Gmail account."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2727.243,"endTime":2728.813,"body":"And so that's how companies should do it."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2729.033,"endTime":2730.073,"body":"They should make it really easy."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2730.073,"endTime":2734.063,"body":"Like a one click sign in with GitHub,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2730.073,"endTime":2734.063,"body":"don't send any emails, except maybe"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2734.063,"endTime":2737.753,"body":"one with a link to the docs and"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2734.063,"endTime":2737.753,"body":"some interesting resources, and"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2737.753,"endTime":2739.053,"body":"then let developers test it out."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2740.023,"endTime":2741.963,"body":"And you can instrument"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2740.023,"endTime":2741.963,"body":"your, your products."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2741.973,"endTime":2745.303,"body":"So you can see when people have signed"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2741.973,"endTime":2745.303,"body":"up, when they've activated, when"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2745.303,"endTime":2746.653,"body":"they're actually starting to get value."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2746.953,"endTime":2750.303,"body":"And there are different points when you"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2746.953,"endTime":2750.303,"body":"might want to reach out and say, like,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2750.303,"endTime":2753.513,"body":"if there's a long gap between sign up"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2750.303,"endTime":2753.513,"body":"and nothing has happened, maybe you might"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2753.513,"endTime":2754.693,"body":"want to say, did you have a problem?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2754.693,"endTime":2756.583,"body":"Did it not meet your requirements?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2756.583,"endTime":2759.673,"body":"But more likely it's once they've"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2756.583,"endTime":2759.673,"body":"installed it and you know that"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2759.673,"endTime":2763.758,"body":"they have seen some value, That's"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2759.673,"endTime":2763.758,"body":"the point, to send a message and"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2763.758,"endTime":2765.418,"body":"just say, how did you get on?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2765.748,"endTime":2766.858,"body":"Did you check this doc?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2766.918,"endTime":2771.148,"body":"This really helps, and particularly if you"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2766.918,"endTime":2771.148,"body":"know where those users are coming from."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2771.238,"endTime":2776.668,"body":"Like for , we integrate into Netlify"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2771.238,"endTime":2776.668,"body":"fly.io, al, and when we know you've come"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2776.668,"endTime":2780.028,"body":"through their marketplace, we'll send you"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2776.668,"endTime":2780.028,"body":"a couple of links just to how to connect"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2780.028,"endTime":2784.108,"body":"it up or to set it up in a certain way"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2780.028,"endTime":2784.108,"body":"and you can start making these little."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2784.493,"endTime":2788.223,"body":"Tweaks and adjustments just to help the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2784.493,"endTime":2788.223,"body":"developer figure it out because they're"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2788.223,"endTime":2789.313,"body":"going to figure it out themselves."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2789.343,"endTime":2792.113,"body":"And if they don't, then most"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2789.343,"endTime":2792.113,"body":"likely they're going to open a"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2792.113,"endTime":2795.163,"body":"GitHub issue or come on discord,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2792.113,"endTime":2795.163,"body":"or they're just going to disappear."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2795.453,"endTime":2799.623,"body":"And so just making all these channels"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2795.453,"endTime":2799.623,"body":"available, you don't need to force"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2799.623,"endTime":2804.013,"body":"developers, you don't need to trick"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2799.623,"endTime":2804.013,"body":"them and just remove all the friction."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2804.243,"endTime":2806.453,"body":"that, that's where I see a lot of success."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2806.861,"endTime":2809.161,"body":"just focus on building"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2806.861,"endTime":2809.161,"body":"something great that delights"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2809.161,"endTime":2810.571,"body":"them and solves their problem."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2810.611,"endTime":2812.351,"body":"And they'll do the marketing for you."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2813.278,"endTime":2814.688,"body":"well that,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2813.278,"endTime":2814.688,"body":"yeah, that, that's 50 percent"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2814.688,"endTime":2815.538,"body":"of it building the product."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2815.538,"endTime":2817.328,"body":"I think the other 50"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2815.538,"endTime":2817.328,"body":"percent is the awareness."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2817.658,"endTime":2821.558,"body":"And once they're, once they're into"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2817.658,"endTime":2821.558,"body":"the product, then you make it really"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2821.558,"endTime":2823.738,"body":"easy and they'll do the evaluation."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2824.038,"endTime":2826.518,"body":"so long as they have the right"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2824.038,"endTime":2826.518,"body":"docs and the resources to do it."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2826.523,"endTime":2828.633,"body":"the tricky bit is just"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2826.523,"endTime":2828.633,"body":"the awareness because."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2828.853,"endTime":2832.083,"body":"Just because there are so many tools,"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2828.853,"endTime":2832.083,"body":"there are so many products trying to"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2832.173,"endTime":2836.153,"body":"reach developers, so many open source"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2832.173,"endTime":2836.153,"body":"things, there's open source variants"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2836.153,"endTime":2838.493,"body":"of startups and commercial products."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2838.493,"endTime":2842.723,"body":"And just getting the mindshare of the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2838.493,"endTime":2842.723,"body":"developer is very, very difficult."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2843.78,"endTime":2846.97,"body":"David, this has been an"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2843.78,"endTime":2846.97,"body":"amazing conversation I'm curious, where"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2846.97,"endTime":2850.6,"body":"can folks go to follow you and learn"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2846.97,"endTime":2850.6,"body":"more about what you're doing and working"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2850.6,"endTime":2852.65,"body":"on, whether it's ArcJet or otherwise?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2852.73,"endTime":2853.79,"body":"Where can they find you?"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2854.21,"endTime":2856.77,"body":"So you can"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2854.21,"endTime":2856.77,"body":"subscribe to console.dev on the"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2856.77,"endTime":2858.79,"body":"website, free every Thursday."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2859.33,"endTime":2863.3,"body":"And if you're interested in what we're"},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2859.33,"endTime":2863.3,"body":"doing at ArcJet, then it's arcjet.com."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2864.293,"endTime":2864.663,"body":"Great!"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2864.723,"endTime":2866.923,"body":"We'll make sure to put the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2864.723,"endTime":2866.923,"body":"information in the show notes so"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2866.923,"endTime":2868.713,"body":"our listeners can check it out."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2869.054,"endTime":2870.449,"body":"That's it for today's show."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2870.629,"endTime":2872.989,"body":"we hope that you enjoyed our"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2870.629,"endTime":2872.989,"body":"conversation today with David Mytton."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2873.569,"endTime":2876.989,"body":"And if you're enjoying these insights"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2873.569,"endTime":2876.989,"body":"from engineering leaders, please"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2876.989,"endTime":2881.745,"body":"make sure you head over to the stack,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2876.989,"endTime":2881.745,"body":"uh, for weekly articles and deep"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2881.745,"endTime":2883.625,"body":"dives on these kinds of episodes."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2883.945,"endTime":2887.285,"body":"And also don't forget to subscribe"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2883.945,"endTime":2887.285,"body":"to our YouTube channel where we can"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2887.285,"endTime":2891.575,"body":"put all of our favorite moments from"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2887.285,"endTime":2891.575,"body":"this episode and other ones as well."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2891.885,"endTime":2894.605,"body":"The last thing I'd like to say is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2891.885,"endTime":2894.605,"body":"we always love to hear from our"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2894.605,"endTime":2898.105,"body":"audience, so please leave a comment,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2894.605,"endTime":2898.105,"body":"rate us directly within your favorite"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2898.105,"endTime":2903.195,"body":"podcast app, and let us know what you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2898.105,"endTime":2903.195,"body":"thought about this week's episode."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2903.715,"endTime":2905.735,"body":"David, thank you so much"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2903.715,"endTime":2905.735,"body":"for joining us today."},{"speaker":"David Mytton","startTime":2906.657,"endTime":2907.127,"body":"Thanks a lot, Andrew."}]}