{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":7.773,"endTime":9.813,"body":"So welcome"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":7.773,"endTime":9.813,"body":"to Dev Interrupted."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":9.813,"endTime":11.643,"body":"I'm your host, Andrew Zigler,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":12.25,"endTime":13.855,"body":"And I am"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":12.25,"endTime":13.855,"body":"your host, Ben Lloyd Pearson."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":14.324,"endTime":16.209,"body":"in today's news,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":14.324,"endTime":16.209,"body":"we're talking about a few things."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":16.839,"endTime":22.569,"body":"The sandwich generation in tech, Google"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":16.839,"endTime":22.569,"body":"is striking back against ad blockers and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":22.569,"endTime":27.369,"body":"an AI powered deepfake coding interview"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":22.569,"endTime":27.369,"body":"applicant that almost got hired and the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":27.369,"endTime":29.049,"body":"entire internet is talking about it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":29.379,"endTime":30.884,"body":"Ben, what do you want to talk about first?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":31.696,"endTime":33.766,"body":"Yeah, I've seen"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":31.696,"endTime":33.766,"body":"that last one a ton, but maybe,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":33.796,"endTime":35.566,"body":"maybe we'll save that for the end."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":35.626,"endTime":39.256,"body":"And since I'm feeling like half"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":35.626,"endTime":39.256,"body":"a sandwich, maybe let's start"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":39.256,"endTime":40.756,"body":"with the sandwich generation."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":41.437,"endTime":44.917,"body":"The sandwich generation"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":41.437,"endTime":44.917,"body":"in tech is something that maybe"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":44.917,"endTime":47.707,"body":"you're very already familiar with,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":44.917,"endTime":47.707,"body":"but you didn't know the term for it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":47.767,"endTime":51.467,"body":"It's the folks that maybe you are"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":47.767,"endTime":51.467,"body":"one of them, who every day when"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":51.467,"endTime":54.497,"body":"you go to your job, you have people"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":51.467,"endTime":54.497,"body":"younger than you that you take"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":54.497,"endTime":56.447,"body":"care of and people older than you."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":56.512,"endTime":57.508,"body":"Than you take care of."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":57.508,"endTime":59.548,"body":"Oftentimes you're in a remote setting."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":59.818,"endTime":63.538,"body":"Your time is split between being"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":59.818,"endTime":63.538,"body":"a caretaker for your kids, but"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":63.628,"endTime":67.978,"body":"increasingly people in the workforce"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":63.628,"endTime":67.978,"body":"are also taking care of their parents."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":68.188,"endTime":71.218,"body":"So you end up in a situation"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":68.188,"endTime":71.218,"body":"where there's a large identity"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":71.218,"endTime":73.918,"body":"of folks who are dual caretakers."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":74.108,"endTime":77.848,"body":"in fact, there's 11 million of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":74.108,"endTime":77.848,"body":"them in the US as of last year."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":78.118,"endTime":82.418,"body":"Makes up millennials and Gen Gen Z are"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":78.118,"endTime":82.418,"body":"about a. Third of them, most of them work"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":82.418,"endTime":84.968,"body":"full-time or part-time predominantly."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":85.188,"endTime":88.888,"body":"but overwhelmingly 90% of them or"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":85.188,"endTime":88.888,"body":"more in this article talked about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":88.888,"endTime":92.848,"body":"how they have to make lifestyle or"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":88.888,"endTime":92.848,"body":"financial sacrifices and, you know,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":92.848,"endTime":96.058,"body":"they have to compromise on their own"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":92.848,"endTime":96.058,"body":"financial security and their future."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":96.268,"endTime":97.348,"body":"It's not a temporary issue."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":97.878,"endTime":98.988,"body":"That goes away."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":98.988,"endTime":101.868,"body":"And anyone who's a caretaker"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":98.988,"endTime":101.868,"body":"is very familiar with this."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":101.868,"endTime":104.478,"body":"When someone depends on you, it's there."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":104.698,"endTime":107.908,"body":"and you have to always keep it,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":104.698,"endTime":107.908,"body":"uh, front of mind for yourself."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":108.148,"endTime":110.698,"body":"And these people don't just"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":108.148,"endTime":110.698,"body":"work in tech, of course."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":110.891,"endTime":112.791,"body":"they work all across different fields."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":113.081,"endTime":116.411,"body":"But they also have to wear a bunch"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":113.081,"endTime":116.411,"body":"of different hats at home when"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":116.411,"endTime":119.651,"body":"they're solving problems for the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":116.411,"endTime":119.651,"body":"older and younger generations."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":119.861,"endTime":123.851,"body":"Maybe they're the power of attorney"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":119.861,"endTime":123.851,"body":"for someone less capable of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":124.031,"endTime":125.741,"body":"making decisions for themselves."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":126.011,"endTime":129.971,"body":"Maybe they're tech support for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":126.011,"endTime":129.971,"body":"their parents and their kids."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":130.031,"endTime":133.151,"body":"Because it turns out that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":130.031,"endTime":133.151,"body":"millennials and Gen Zs are the only"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":133.151,"endTime":135.791,"body":"generation that really learn how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":133.151,"endTime":135.791,"body":"to become really good tech support."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":135.956,"endTime":139.856,"body":"Everyone else older than us and younger"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":135.956,"endTime":139.856,"body":"than us, you know, they just Google it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":139.856,"endTime":141.416,"body":"or they don't know how to do it at all."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":141.786,"endTime":145.816,"body":"imagine having to do all of this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":141.786,"endTime":145.816,"body":"context switching, and wearing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":145.816,"endTime":148.156,"body":"all of these different roles"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":145.816,"endTime":148.156,"body":"while still doing their job."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":148.396,"endTime":148.636,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":148.636,"endTime":152.116,"body":"when I was reading this article"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":148.636,"endTime":152.116,"body":"about the sandwich generation, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":152.116,"endTime":153.466,"body":"know, I saw a lot of myself in it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":153.466,"endTime":154.696,"body":"I'm not fully in the sandwich."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":154.701,"endTime":158.211,"body":"I'm more like a pita, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":154.701,"endTime":158.211,"body":"only have one piece of bread, I guess."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":158.331,"endTime":161.751,"body":"But I definitely feel the pressures"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":158.331,"endTime":161.751,"body":"of having to be responsible for them."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":162.403,"endTime":164.803,"body":"Yeah, I've got"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":162.403,"endTime":164.803,"body":"kids, so I'm definitely feeling one"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":164.803,"endTime":166.663,"body":"half of the sandwich very strongly."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":167.083,"endTime":170.563,"body":"And you know, I guess the real question"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":167.083,"endTime":170.563,"body":"is what kind of sandwich, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":170.563,"endTime":173.923,"body":"because if it's like a panini that's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":170.563,"endTime":173.923,"body":"been pressed, like, man, that's a,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":174.313,"endTime":175.776,"body":"that's a pretty rough life, you know"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":176.076,"endTime":178.206,"body":"Yeah, our listeners"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":176.076,"endTime":178.206,"body":"can probably tell We have not eaten"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":178.206,"endTime":180.756,"body":"lunch yet when this topic came across."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":180.856,"endTime":183.196,"body":"but, you know, you two, Ben, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":180.856,"endTime":183.196,"body":"know, you, you have kids and you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":183.196,"endTime":184.886,"body":"work remotely, and I'm sure that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":184.906,"endTime":186.406,"body":"that takes a lot of your time."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":186.706,"endTime":190.486,"body":"I actually think it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":186.706,"endTime":190.486,"body":"points out how much remote work can help"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":190.486,"endTime":195.586,"body":"mitigate the effects of this, because,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":190.486,"endTime":195.586,"body":"my mom worked in tech and for a while"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":195.646,"endTime":197.326,"body":"she was also getting her master's degree."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":197.326,"endTime":200.356,"body":"So I remember her working"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":197.326,"endTime":200.356,"body":"really late nights and not"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":200.356,"endTime":201.646,"body":"getting to see her all the time."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":202.201,"endTime":206.101,"body":"And I often think about how, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":202.201,"endTime":206.101,"body":"as a remote worker, the flexibility that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":206.101,"endTime":210.721,"body":"brings me and the fact that I see I, I'm"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":206.101,"endTime":210.721,"body":"way more involved in my kids' everyday"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":210.721,"endTime":212.881,"body":"life just because I'm around a lot more."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":212.881,"endTime":216.991,"body":"I don't have a long commute and I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":212.881,"endTime":216.991,"body":"don't have to sit in an office all day."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":217.363,"endTime":220.823,"body":"it's definitely an interesting"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":217.363,"endTime":220.823,"body":"trend, or an interesting phenomenon."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":221.213,"endTime":224.198,"body":"And I'm kind of asking"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":221.213,"endTime":224.198,"body":"myself is this an HR problem?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":224.198,"endTime":226.418,"body":"Is it an engineering leadership problem?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":226.498,"endTime":230.188,"body":"Are we simply not hiring enough"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":226.498,"endTime":230.188,"body":"developers for some companies?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":230.188,"endTime":234.328,"body":"Or are we pressuring"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":230.188,"endTime":234.328,"body":"developers like to do too much?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":234.628,"endTime":237.568,"body":"You know, there's always this like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":234.628,"endTime":237.568,"body":"endless drive for productivity,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":237.568,"endTime":241.318,"body":"but when do we actually start to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":237.568,"endTime":241.318,"body":"see a drive for more flexibility?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":241.418,"endTime":246.338,"body":"the return to office movement is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":241.418,"endTime":246.338,"body":"definitely not a positive trend, this."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":246.374,"endTime":248.966,"body":"No, not, not"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":246.374,"endTime":248.966,"body":"for the sandwich generation."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":248.966,"endTime":251.576,"body":"It puts them in that hard"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":248.966,"endTime":251.576,"body":"position, like what you described."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":251.576,"endTime":255.476,"body":"It makes me think of even myself, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":251.576,"endTime":255.476,"body":"know, growing up I was a latchkey kid"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":255.476,"endTime":259.046,"body":"and both my parents worked and, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":255.476,"endTime":259.046,"body":"know, they weren't able to work at home."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":259.046,"endTime":262.406,"body":"Remote work wasn't a reality when"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":259.046,"endTime":262.406,"body":"I was growing up and that wasn't"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":262.406,"endTime":263.816,"body":"an accessible life for them."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":264.156,"endTime":268.086,"body":"and so it really changes how, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":264.156,"endTime":268.086,"body":"know, you become your own independent."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":268.121,"endTime":268.721,"body":"Person."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":268.881,"endTime":271.791,"body":"but also just having that person"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":268.881,"endTime":271.791,"body":"available for you to support you is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":271.791,"endTime":273.771,"body":"really, really great and helpful."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":273.771,"endTime":278.471,"body":"So the fact that a generation now, like my"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":273.771,"endTime":278.471,"body":"generation is able to work remotely and,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":278.471,"endTime":282.341,"body":"and help raise their kids and be there"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":278.471,"endTime":282.341,"body":"for them when they come home from school,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":282.531,"endTime":285.621,"body":"just those small things I know that can"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":282.531,"endTime":285.621,"body":"make a lot of difference, but at the same"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":285.621,"endTime":287.721,"body":"time, it puts a lot of pressure on them."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":287.721,"endTime":291.001,"body":"Like what you said at work, they're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":287.721,"endTime":291.001,"body":"strained, between leadership."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":291.166,"endTime":295.036,"body":"Decisions between project deadlines,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":291.166,"endTime":295.036,"body":"between things that have to get out the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":295.036,"endTime":299.836,"body":"door and everything Right now in every"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":295.036,"endTime":299.836,"body":"industry is crunched and accelerated."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":299.926,"endTime":303.616,"body":"There doesn't really seem to be much"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":299.926,"endTime":303.616,"body":"relief, and so that's why it's always"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":303.616,"endTime":306.856,"body":"important to stop and highlight these"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":303.616,"endTime":306.856,"body":"human moments and how we're all working"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":306.965,"endTime":309.376,"body":"together and having to support each other."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":309.566,"endTime":312.466,"body":"I think it really calls out"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":309.566,"endTime":312.466,"body":"that, you know, the flexibility"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":312.466,"endTime":313.666,"body":"of remote work is really."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":313.686,"endTime":317.826,"body":"Key for this generation to not"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":313.686,"endTime":317.826,"body":"only survive, but thrive and be"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":317.826,"endTime":322.096,"body":"able to set up a future generation,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":317.826,"endTime":322.096,"body":"for that same kind of success."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":322.416,"endTime":326.586,"body":"otherwise you're gonna end up in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":322.416,"endTime":326.586,"body":"this scenario where it's like, kind"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":326.586,"endTime":330.096,"body":"of like a brain drain situation"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":326.586,"endTime":330.096,"body":"if you can't accommodate these"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":330.096,"endTime":332.196,"body":"very talented but obviously."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":332.999,"endTime":333.406,"body":"Responsible."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":333.406,"endTime":337.976,"body":"And in some scenarios like strapped,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":333.406,"endTime":337.976,"body":"leaders and professionals that are just,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":337.976,"endTime":342.896,"body":"in between life's situations, if we can't"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":337.976,"endTime":342.896,"body":"account for them, then they can't be in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":342.896,"endTime":345.086,"body":"our industries, they won't be represented."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":345.206,"endTime":349.056,"body":"And then that means that the products"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":345.206,"endTime":349.056,"body":"that we make, the businesses that we."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":349.116,"endTime":353.076,"body":"Build are less understanding of them"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":349.116,"endTime":353.076,"body":"and are less able to serve their"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":353.076,"endTime":355.386,"body":"needs and the situation becomes worse."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":355.446,"endTime":357.366,"body":"And that's always why it's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":355.446,"endTime":357.366,"body":"important to make sure everyone"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":357.366,"endTime":358.656,"body":"has a seat at the table."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":358.936,"endTime":361.816,"body":"that way that we can resolve"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":358.936,"endTime":361.816,"body":"those problems as a society."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":362.033,"endTime":364.103,"body":"so my favorite"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":362.033,"endTime":364.103,"body":"part of this article is the very end"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":364.103,"endTime":368.223,"body":"where they brought up people who,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":364.103,"endTime":368.223,"body":"were responding to this by building"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":368.403,"endTime":372.423,"body":"technology to help them care, take"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":368.403,"endTime":372.423,"body":"or take care of their, their elders."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":372.873,"endTime":375.813,"body":"You know, so I'm asking myself like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":372.873,"endTime":375.813,"body":"how long until the pressure builds"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":375.813,"endTime":378.858,"body":"to a point where I. Developers"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":375.813,"endTime":378.858,"body":"just start, start le leaving their"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":378.858,"endTime":383.478,"body":"jobs and using AI to build the next"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":378.858,"endTime":383.478,"body":"generation of elder tech, you know?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":384.094,"endTime":385.804,"body":"Well, the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":384.094,"endTime":385.804,"body":"next story is about privacy."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":385.864,"endTime":389.824,"body":"A little bit of a different turn,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":385.864,"endTime":389.824,"body":"but everyone's heard something about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":389.884,"endTime":393.454,"body":"Google Chrome and privacy and how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":389.884,"endTime":393.454,"body":"different browsers that we use,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":393.454,"endTime":397.714,"body":"the surf, the internet, all handle"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":393.454,"endTime":397.714,"body":"our personal data very differently."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":398.044,"endTime":401.164,"body":"Well, there's been a, a recent"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":398.044,"endTime":401.164,"body":"shakeup, and it seems like Google"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":401.164,"endTime":404.554,"body":"is getting closer and closer to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":401.164,"endTime":404.554,"body":"making Chrome Something more like."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":404.684,"endTime":406.554,"body":"AOL of the modern day."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":406.984,"endTime":411.364,"body":"we're talking about getting rid of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":406.984,"endTime":411.364,"body":"ad blockers, getting in the way of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":411.364,"endTime":415.474,"body":"how users want to use and configure"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":411.364,"endTime":415.474,"body":"their browsers and ultimately"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":415.474,"endTime":418.144,"body":"protect their privacy online."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":418.424,"endTime":419.824,"body":"AOL 2.0."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":419.884,"endTime":422.914,"body":"I'm already hearing the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":419.884,"endTime":422.914,"body":"dial up tones in my head."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":423.184,"endTime":423.874,"body":"My goodness."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":424.444,"endTime":428.678,"body":"this was sparked by a, a conversation"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":424.444,"endTime":428.678,"body":"we saw on Hacker News, a very heated"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":428.678,"endTime":433.191,"body":"conversation about U Block origin"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":428.678,"endTime":433.191,"body":"being removed from the Chrome Store."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":433.488,"endTime":435.948,"body":"you know, and the real story here"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":433.488,"endTime":435.948,"body":"isn't anything to do with you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":435.948,"endTime":438.748,"body":"block, because we all kind of know"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":435.948,"endTime":438.748,"body":"that you block, it's a good app."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":438.748,"endTime":440.338,"body":"People really like using it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":440.338,"endTime":443.818,"body":"It, it's not malicious, it's not"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":440.338,"endTime":443.818,"body":"trying to harm you in any way."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":443.878,"endTime":446.758,"body":"but it's being removed because"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":443.878,"endTime":446.758,"body":"of these new restrictions that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":446.993,"endTime":450.513,"body":"Chrome is bringing, into their"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":446.993,"endTime":450.513,"body":"browser, but also sort of like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":450.873,"endTime":455.523,"body":"using their, their position within"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":450.873,"endTime":455.523,"body":"the market to force standards to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":455.523,"endTime":457.263,"body":"go in a direction that they want."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":457.633,"endTime":460.036,"body":"there's a lot of ways to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":457.633,"endTime":460.036,"body":"get around this stuff."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":460.066,"endTime":462.106,"body":"like use different browser for example."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":462.386,"endTime":466.076,"body":"I personally am a massive fan of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":462.386,"endTime":466.076,"body":"Pi-hole, which if you've never"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":466.076,"endTime":470.366,"body":"used it is DNS service that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":466.076,"endTime":470.366,"body":"you can run yourself and will."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":470.726,"endTime":474.026,"body":"And instead of serving you up"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":470.726,"endTime":474.026,"body":"ads, we'll just give you blank."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":474.086,"endTime":478.956,"body":"Nothing but convince the websites that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":474.086,"endTime":478.956,"body":"you actually did see the ad. and it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":478.956,"endTime":481.776,"body":"removes ads actually on your entire"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":478.956,"endTime":481.776,"body":"network, which is pretty amazing."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":481.976,"endTime":486.316,"body":"the real story here I think is that,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":481.976,"endTime":486.316,"body":"Chrome has this long history, in Google,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":486.316,"endTime":489.976,"body":"through Chrome has this long history of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":486.316,"endTime":489.976,"body":"pushing standards that, you know, maybe"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":489.976,"endTime":494.716,"body":"other browsers don't really want to adopt"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":489.976,"endTime":494.716,"body":"those standards, or maybe users, certain"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":494.716,"endTime":496.426,"body":"users don't feel comfortable with them."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":496.976,"endTime":499.736,"body":"and we're just kind of like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":496.976,"endTime":499.736,"body":"going further down this path."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":499.741,"endTime":504.326,"body":"And of course, always in the background"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":499.741,"endTime":504.326,"body":"is things like the antitrust, rulings"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":504.326,"endTime":505.826,"body":"that are coming down on Google that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":506.174,"endTime":509.474,"body":"forcing them actually to re,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":506.174,"endTime":509.474,"body":"to make Chrome its own company."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":509.474,"endTime":512.684,"body":"So I really feel like we're, we're in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":509.474,"endTime":512.684,"body":"the middle of this story right now."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":512.684,"endTime":514.394,"body":"Like we haven't, we"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":512.684,"endTime":514.394,"body":"haven't seen the end yet."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":515.697,"endTime":518.937,"body":"I feel like we've been in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":515.697,"endTime":518.937,"body":"the middle of the story for a long time."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":518.937,"endTime":523.087,"body":"You know, Chrome has made lots of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":518.937,"endTime":523.087,"body":"changes over the years, against and for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":523.087,"endTime":526.957,"body":"privacy that, you know, its users, its"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":523.087,"endTime":526.957,"body":"consumers have not been happy about."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":526.957,"endTime":532.127,"body":"I think you make a very, salient point"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":526.957,"endTime":532.127,"body":"about how the antitrust plays into"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":532.127,"endTime":535.287,"body":"this because ultimately, you have to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":532.127,"endTime":535.287,"body":"remember at the end of the day, Google"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":535.287,"endTime":539.127,"body":"is selling you ads, and that's where"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":535.287,"endTime":539.127,"body":"Google gets most of its income from."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":539.367,"endTime":542.817,"body":"And so they have an incentive to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":539.367,"endTime":542.817,"body":"make sure that they serve you ads."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":542.817,"endTime":546.057,"body":"And as the creator of Google Chrome,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":542.817,"endTime":546.057,"body":"you know, one of the largest and."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":546.212,"endTime":550.812,"body":"Most adopted browsers, it puts them in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":546.212,"endTime":550.812,"body":"a right position to not only serve you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":550.812,"endTime":553.572,"body":"the ads, but to serve you the place"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":550.812,"endTime":553.572,"body":"where you're looking at those ads."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":553.782,"endTime":556.962,"body":"That amount of control over our"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":553.782,"endTime":556.962,"body":"browsing situation is a lot for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":557.142,"endTime":558.792,"body":"many people to kind of tolerate."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":559.042,"endTime":562.432,"body":"And I can certainly see people going"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":559.042,"endTime":562.432,"body":"their own ways using different browsers."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":562.432,"endTime":565.282,"body":"Like what you said, maybe even"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":562.432,"endTime":565.282,"body":"using fanciful acts like this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":565.282,"endTime":566.992,"body":"Pi-hole situation you're describing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":567.272,"endTime":571.812,"body":"DNS engineering Aside, I do think"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":567.272,"endTime":571.812,"body":"that it highlights the importance of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":571.812,"endTime":575.172,"body":"understanding how you're browsing the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":571.812,"endTime":575.172,"body":"web, the websites that you're going"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":575.172,"endTime":576.582,"body":"to and what they know about you."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":576.802,"endTime":579.652,"body":"but really now that we've been talking"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":576.802,"endTime":579.652,"body":"about AOL, I just really want us to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":579.652,"endTime":581.992,"body":"have like AOL keyword Dev Interrupted."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":582.022,"endTime":584.962,"body":"How cool would that be to go"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":582.022,"endTime":584.962,"body":"back to the AOL keyword era."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":585.442,"endTime":587.962,"body":"I'm not on"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":585.442,"endTime":587.962,"body":"board with that, but I, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":587.962,"endTime":591.412,"body":"I do kind of wonder like, are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":587.962,"endTime":591.412,"body":"we nostalgic for like a web that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":591.412,"endTime":593.002,"body":"like never actually existed?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":593.002,"endTime":596.812,"body":"Like, you know, analytics is something"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":593.002,"endTime":596.812,"body":"that's been sort of built into the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":596.812,"endTime":598.942,"body":"web from, from the very early days."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":599.242,"endTime":602.062,"body":"And at this point, it's almost like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":599.242,"endTime":602.062,"body":"a fundamental component of the very"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":602.062,"endTime":606.836,"body":"fabric of the internet, nothing can"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":602.062,"endTime":606.836,"body":"really optimize, be optimized without"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":607.136,"endTime":611.756,"body":"data and analytics and that requires"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":607.136,"endTime":611.756,"body":"some degree of tracking that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":611.936,"endTime":613.886,"body":"I think has really always existed."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":614.142,"endTime":617.862,"body":"And I certainly do miss the, uh, profound"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":614.142,"endTime":617.862,"body":"lack of advertisements everywhere."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":618.429,"endTime":621.429,"body":"so Andrew, let's talk about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":618.429,"endTime":621.429,"body":"these AI fakers that are trying"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":621.429,"endTime":623.529,"body":"to enter your organization."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":624.167,"endTime":626.627,"body":"So if you haven't"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":624.167,"endTime":626.627,"body":"heard about this article, maybe"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":626.627,"endTime":629.207,"body":"you've been under a rock, maybe you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":626.627,"endTime":629.207,"body":"haven't been on LinkedIn, but this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":629.207,"endTime":633.347,"body":"has been blowing up the tech industry"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":629.207,"endTime":633.347,"body":"in the last week, week and a half"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":633.369,"endTime":635.794,"body":"I've seen at"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":633.369,"endTime":635.794,"body":"least 20 posts on LinkedIn about it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":636.272,"endTime":636.872,"body":"Me too."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":636.902,"endTime":637.892,"body":"I've seen so many."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":637.892,"endTime":640.922,"body":"And so we had to talk about it here"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":637.892,"endTime":640.922,"body":"because if you've been listening, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":640.922,"endTime":645.186,"body":"know, a few weeks ago, we talked about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":640.922,"endTime":645.186,"body":"how, AI is disrupting the interview"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":645.186,"endTime":648.846,"body":"process in tech and about how it changes"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":645.186,"endTime":648.846,"body":"what we need to have in mind and what"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":648.846,"endTime":653.356,"body":"we need to be, considering when we bring"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":648.846,"endTime":653.356,"body":"in candidates, this goes the whole other"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":653.356,"endTime":656.176,"body":"direction about the dangers that AI can."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":656.546,"endTime":658.706,"body":"pose within your hiring process."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":658.736,"endTime":661.886,"body":"it's about an, this whole scandal,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":658.736,"endTime":661.886,"body":"just to back up and give you some"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":661.886,"endTime":664.046,"body":"context, it happened for a company."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":664.176,"endTime":665.766,"body":"it's a Polish company called Vioc."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":665.766,"endTime":668.326,"body":"And they were hiring,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":665.766,"endTime":668.326,"body":"for engineering roles."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":668.326,"endTime":669.706,"body":"and they were doing this remotely."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":669.916,"endTime":671.746,"body":"This is a remote work position."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":671.986,"endTime":675.496,"body":"And so they were hiring candidates"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":671.986,"endTime":675.496,"body":"and as they were evaluating."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":675.686,"endTime":679.326,"body":"One of them, you know, they"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":675.686,"endTime":679.326,"body":"passed the initial interviews."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":679.326,"endTime":682.056,"body":"The resume hit the marks"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":679.326,"endTime":682.056,"body":"for what they needed."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":682.306,"endTime":684.854,"body":"they even sailed through"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":682.306,"endTime":684.854,"body":"the technical interview."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":685.436,"endTime":689.996,"body":"but then at the final stages there were"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":685.436,"endTime":689.996,"body":"some questions about their background,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":689.996,"endTime":694.023,"body":"about some gaps on their resume, and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":689.996,"endTime":694.023,"body":"ultimately an offer wasn't extended."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":694.729,"endTime":697.849,"body":"a few weeks later, or during"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":694.729,"endTime":697.849,"body":"that same hiring process."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":698.114,"endTime":702.534,"body":"Another candidate came into the queue,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":698.114,"endTime":702.534,"body":"who managed to pass all of those same"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":702.534,"endTime":707.334,"body":"checks, talked to those same people, but"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":702.534,"endTime":707.334,"body":"was posing as someone else completely."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":707.514,"endTime":709.314,"body":"So both of these were actors."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":709.314,"endTime":713.904,"body":"These AI powered actors were actually"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":709.314,"endTime":713.904,"body":"the same person applying for this role,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":714.084,"endTime":717.624,"body":"or at least they're, we assume they are"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":714.084,"endTime":717.624,"body":"the same person applying for this role."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":717.804,"endTime":720.984,"body":"And they were using AI technology"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":717.804,"endTime":720.984,"body":"to basically fake their way through."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":721.149,"endTime":725.049,"body":"All of the hiring process, even"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":721.149,"endTime":725.049,"body":"getting all the way, to the end."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":725.259,"endTime":729.039,"body":"And the only reason that they were"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":725.259,"endTime":729.039,"body":"debunked is from a now viral video,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":729.039,"endTime":730.059,"body":"which is probably the reason, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":730.059,"endTime":734.12,"body":"know, this story, of the, of the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":730.059,"endTime":734.12,"body":"final interviewer, asking the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":734.12,"endTime":736.88,"body":"candidate to put their hand in front"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":734.12,"endTime":736.88,"body":"of their face in the interview."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":736.88,"endTime":740.28,"body":"And as we all know, when you have"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":736.88,"endTime":740.28,"body":"photo filters, you can't do this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":740.28,"endTime":743.1,"body":"because your photo filters are"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":740.28,"endTime":743.1,"body":"gonna pop on and off the candidate."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":743.16,"endTime":744.21,"body":"Refused."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":744.41,"endTime":748.94,"body":"and this is because it would break his"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":744.41,"endTime":748.94,"body":"filter and imagine that he made it all"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":748.94,"endTime":754.25,"body":"the way through that process, not just"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":748.94,"endTime":754.25,"body":"once, but twice and almost got the offer."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":754.25,"endTime":758.66,"body":"And the only reason he didn't is because"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":754.25,"endTime":758.66,"body":"he used the same, slightly same voice."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":758.66,"endTime":760.04,"body":"He sounded slightly similar."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":760.25,"endTime":761.69,"body":"To that first candidate and this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":761.69,"endTime":764.3,"body":"hiring team, they were on it right."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":764.46,"endTime":768.24,"body":"really props to them for being in charge"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":764.46,"endTime":768.24,"body":"and on top of their hiring process."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":768.24,"endTime":770.55,"body":"The whole time I've read about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":768.24,"endTime":770.55,"body":"their, their post-mortem on it, I"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":770.55,"endTime":771.99,"body":"think they did everything right."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":772.14,"endTime":774.78,"body":"I think this is something that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":772.14,"endTime":774.78,"body":"could happen to any company, and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":774.78,"endTime":777.54,"body":"it's a really big wake up call"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":774.78,"endTime":777.54,"body":"about how hiring is changing."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":778.232,"endTime":780.782,"body":"Yeah, I mean, we"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":778.232,"endTime":780.782,"body":"just covered this recently in a, in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":780.782,"endTime":785.612,"body":"another episode about how AI is just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":780.782,"endTime":785.612,"body":"fundamentally shifting the, the interview"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":785.612,"endTime":787.232,"body":"process for software developers."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":787.232,"endTime":790.187,"body":"And this is one of the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":787.232,"endTime":790.187,"body":"darker ways that's happening."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":790.187,"endTime":793.427,"body":"But, you know, it makes me think"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":790.187,"endTime":793.427,"body":"like, what is the way that you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":793.427,"endTime":795.767,"body":"validate that somebody is real?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":795.767,"endTime":798.947,"body":"I've been talking to some people I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":795.767,"endTime":798.947,"body":"know that like, uh, in my personal"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":798.947,"endTime":802.517,"body":"life, it's like there's gonna be"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":798.947,"endTime":802.517,"body":"a day where AI impersonates me."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":802.517,"endTime":807.767,"body":"So we need a code word that only we know"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":802.517,"endTime":807.767,"body":"that will validate that I am who I am."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":807.827,"endTime":811.247,"body":"When you hear me talking to you,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":807.827,"endTime":811.247,"body":"And we almost need something for"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":811.247,"endTime":812.777,"body":"the interview process as well."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":812.777,"endTime":817.217,"body":"It's like, in my next interview, I might"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":812.777,"endTime":817.217,"body":"have to request that, like the candidate"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":817.247,"endTime":821.687,"body":"turn off their background filters, put"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":817.247,"endTime":821.687,"body":"their left hand and their right foot in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":821.687,"endTime":825.077,"body":"the frame of the camera, and then spin"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":821.687,"endTime":825.077,"body":"around in their chair three times or"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":825.077,"endTime":829.287,"body":"something just to validate that they're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":825.077,"endTime":829.287,"body":"actually a human being, you know?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":829.447,"endTime":831.337,"body":"these impersonations are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":829.447,"endTime":831.337,"body":"only gonna get better."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":831.397,"endTime":836.047,"body":"So we've gotta continue to evolve our"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":831.397,"endTime":836.047,"body":"way of detecting and responding to them."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":836.625,"endTime":840.255,"body":"We have to sharpen"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":836.625,"endTime":840.255,"body":"our evaluative skills for candidates,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":840.305,"endTime":841.73,"body":"but we can't let the fear."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":842.35,"endTime":847.93,"body":"Of these ai deepfakes harm our"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":842.35,"endTime":847.93,"body":"hiring process for real humans."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":847.93,"endTime":852.16,"body":"Either we can't make it oppressively"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":847.93,"endTime":852.16,"body":"difficult for people to apply for and to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":852.16,"endTime":855.11,"body":"get roles, or to prove that they're real."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":855.3,"endTime":859.68,"body":"we need to come up with intuitive and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":855.3,"endTime":859.68,"body":"simple like ways for people to prove that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":859.68,"endTime":865.03,"body":"they're real, virtually without having"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":859.68,"endTime":865.03,"body":"to, add a bunch of byzantine process."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":865.03,"endTime":865.99,"body":"You know, I really."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":866.21,"endTime":870.46,"body":"Commend the engineer who interviewed this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":866.21,"endTime":870.46,"body":"person who had the idea in the moment to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":870.46,"endTime":875.13,"body":"put their hand in front of their face,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":870.46,"endTime":875.13,"body":"to try to, get the filter to fall off."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":875.13,"endTime":877.11,"body":"I think that's one step"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":875.13,"endTime":877.11,"body":"in the right direction."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":877.38,"endTime":880.86,"body":"I think there might be easier answers out"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":877.38,"endTime":880.86,"body":"there too that, maybe brighter mind in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":880.86,"endTime":883.42,"body":"hr, in tech, is already thinking about."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":883.42,"endTime":886.03,"body":"And if that's you, if you're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":883.42,"endTime":886.03,"body":"an, if you are hiring and."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":886.235,"endTime":888.935,"body":"You are kind of experiencing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":886.235,"endTime":888.935,"body":"this and you already have some"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":888.935,"endTime":892.215,"body":"interesting stories, from the AI"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":888.935,"endTime":892.215,"body":"world for the jobs you're hiring."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":892.215,"endTime":893.336,"body":"We'd love to hear about them."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":893.636,"endTime":893.816,"body":"yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":893.816,"endTime":896.066,"body":"I would love to hear what our"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":893.816,"endTime":896.066,"body":"audience thinks about this."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":896.096,"endTime":898.946,"body":"if you've encountered this, head over"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":896.096,"endTime":898.946,"body":"to our substack, head over to LinkedIn,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":898.946,"endTime":902.966,"body":"wherever you prefer, and, and leave us a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":898.946,"endTime":902.966,"body":"comment that describes what you're seeing."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":903.026,"endTime":906.296,"body":"You know, are you experiencing this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":903.026,"endTime":906.296,"body":"and have you had to address this?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":906.726,"endTime":908.676,"body":"So, Andrew, let's talk"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":906.726,"endTime":908.676,"body":"about our guest today."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":908.676,"endTime":909.276,"body":"Who do we have?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":909.839,"endTime":911.819,"body":"I am very"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":909.839,"endTime":911.819,"body":"excited for today's guest."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":912.209,"endTime":915.389,"body":"After the break, we're bringing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":912.209,"endTime":915.389,"body":"Animesh Mishra on the pod."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":915.479,"endTime":919.499,"body":"He's a senior Solutions engineer"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":915.479,"endTime":919.499,"body":"at Diffblue and Diffblue is an"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":919.549,"endTime":923.089,"body":"enterprise grade solution for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":919.549,"endTime":923.089,"body":"automating test suite generation."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":923.299,"endTime":926.119,"body":"They make it really easy to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":923.299,"endTime":926.119,"body":"make a massive amount of tests."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":926.514,"endTime":927.234,"body":"Scale."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":927.594,"endTime":930.444,"body":"And when you stick around for this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":927.594,"endTime":930.444,"body":"discussion, you're gonna learn"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":930.444,"endTime":933.564,"body":"about the realities of AI and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":930.444,"endTime":933.564,"body":"how it can be used to do this."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":933.804,"endTime":937.854,"body":"and how this is finally enabling"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":933.804,"endTime":937.854,"body":"test driven development for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":937.854,"endTime":939.594,"body":"engineering organizations at scale."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":940.084,"endTime":941.614,"body":"You really don't wanna miss this one."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":945.575,"endTime":949.415,"body":"Are you struggling to explain developer"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":945.575,"endTime":949.415,"body":"experience to non-technical leadership?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":949.985,"endTime":954.125,"body":"Join LinearB's upcoming workshop and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":949.985,"endTime":954.125,"body":"learn how to translate Dev X into"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":954.125,"endTime":955.565,"body":"language the business cares about."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":956.195,"endTime":959.915,"body":"We'll show you how to present data on"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":956.195,"endTime":959.915,"body":"developer productivity, AI performance,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":959.975,"endTime":963.515,"body":"and engineering health in ways that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":959.975,"endTime":963.515,"body":"drive alignment and investment."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":963.995,"endTime":967.895,"body":"Plus, you'll get an early access to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":963.995,"endTime":967.895,"body":"our CTO Board deck template, making"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":967.895,"endTime":971.165,"body":"it easy to connect engineering"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":967.895,"endTime":971.165,"body":"metrics to outcomes like faster"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":971.165,"endTime":973.085,"body":"time to market and cost savings."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":973.475,"endTime":975.305,"body":"The link to sign up is in the show notes."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":975.335,"endTime":976.145,"body":"We hope to see there."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":979.304,"endTime":981.574,"body":"Today we're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":979.304,"endTime":981.574,"body":"talking about one of the biggest"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":981.574,"endTime":983.624,"body":"paradoxes in software engineering."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":983.881,"endTime":990.041,"body":"Developers love the idea of test driven"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":983.881,"endTime":990.041,"body":"development, or TDD, but in practice,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":990.271,"endTime":991.771,"body":"almost no one actually does it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":992.251,"endTime":993.551,"body":"And here's what we're going to unpack."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":994.396,"endTime":997.406,"body":"AI finally make TDD practical?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":998.026,"endTime":1002.006,"body":"Developers that struggle to trust AI"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":998.026,"endTime":1002.006,"body":"in the last mile, such as for testing,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1002.266,"endTime":1003.976,"body":"how do we build that trust for them?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1004.406,"endTime":1006.576,"body":"And AI isn't just LLMs."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1006.646,"endTime":1010.436,"body":"So if you're a software org that's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1006.646,"endTime":1010.436,"body":"investing in AI right now, how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1010.436,"endTime":1014.586,"body":"can you expand your approach"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1010.436,"endTime":1014.586,"body":"beyond mainstream AI solutions?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1015.271,"endTime":1016.581,"body":"Animesh, welcome to the show."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1017.036,"endTime":1017.786,"body":"Thank you Andrew."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1017.786,"endTime":1022.836,"body":"I'm a software sales engineer"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1017.786,"endTime":1022.836,"body":"at DiffBlue, and I'm looking"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1022.836,"endTime":1023.716,"body":"forward to the conversation."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1024.167,"endTime":1026.267,"body":"Yes, we're really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1024.167,"endTime":1026.267,"body":"excited to have your expertise here."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1026.277,"endTime":1030.167,"body":"You have a lot of exposure to how people"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1026.277,"endTime":1030.167,"body":"use testing out in the wilds, and a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1030.167,"endTime":1033.417,"body":"lot of knowledge about how teams can"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1030.167,"endTime":1033.417,"body":"be unpacking this kind of stuff today."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1034.182,"endTime":1037.682,"body":"But starting with the first topic at hand"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1034.182,"endTime":1037.682,"body":"about test driven development, and it's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1037.682,"endTime":1041.312,"body":"one of those things that, you know, people"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1037.682,"endTime":1041.312,"body":"say they do, but, you know, let's be real,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1041.312,"endTime":1043.182,"body":"it doesn't really happen all that often."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1043.592,"endTime":1047.862,"body":"Maybe we could start by getting"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1043.592,"endTime":1047.862,"body":"the definition of what is TDD?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1047.892,"endTime":1050.992,"body":"What is the goal of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1047.892,"endTime":1050.992,"body":"test driven development?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1051.76,"endTime":1055.73,"body":"So the goal of test driven"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1051.76,"endTime":1055.73,"body":"development, which kind of relies on"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1055.73,"endTime":1063.016,"body":"the name, is to make sure that no piece"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1055.73,"endTime":1063.016,"body":"of software goes out the door untested."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1064.901,"endTime":1068.651,"body":"Now there are, that has always been"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1064.901,"endTime":1068.651,"body":"the case with software engineering."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1069.071,"endTime":1074.111,"body":"but historically what people found"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1069.071,"endTime":1074.111,"body":"out was that the, the fun part of"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1074.111,"endTime":1077.891,"body":"software engineering is in coming up"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1074.111,"endTime":1077.891,"body":"with the code that solves the problem."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1078.161,"endTime":1080.241,"body":"And all software engineers"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1078.161,"endTime":1080.241,"body":"are good problem solvers."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1080.761,"endTime":1085.221,"body":"But once you've solved the problem,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1080.761,"endTime":1085.221,"body":"writing all of the testing code"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1085.421,"endTime":1089.121,"body":"and all the harnessing to make sure"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1085.421,"endTime":1089.121,"body":"that it is delivering every single"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1089.361,"endTime":1093.651,"body":"piece of functionality required"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1089.361,"endTime":1093.651,"body":"of it is not that interesting."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1093.859,"endTime":1098.836,"body":"And so, historically, people saw that,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1093.859,"endTime":1098.836,"body":"the model of you write your code,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1098.986,"endTime":1103.076,"body":"you see how it works, then you write"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1098.986,"endTime":1103.076,"body":"the test that validates all of the"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1103.076,"endTime":1107.316,"body":"assumptions made about the code, and"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1103.076,"endTime":1107.316,"body":"then all of the, functional assumptions"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1107.781,"endTime":1112.151,"body":"parse, then you can get, you can say"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1107.781,"endTime":1112.151,"body":"that this code is working perfectly and"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1112.151,"endTime":1114.242,"body":"no bug or fault has, uh, sneaked in."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1114.433,"endTime":1117.603,"body":"That didn't work because, like"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1114.433,"endTime":1117.603,"body":"I said, the human nature is to"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1117.603,"endTime":1120.853,"body":"solve a problem and then move on"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1117.603,"endTime":1120.853,"body":"to the next dopamine hit, right?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1120.853,"endTime":1123.583,"body":"So there's no dopamine hits"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1120.853,"endTime":1123.583,"body":"to be had in writing tests."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1124.113,"endTime":1128.113,"body":"So, test driven development,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1124.113,"endTime":1128.113,"body":"emerged around the, uh, with the"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1128.483,"endTime":1129.823,"body":"emergence of extreme programming."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1129.993,"endTime":1134.413,"body":"So there's a new, ways of writing"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1129.993,"endTime":1134.413,"body":"software, which not only improved,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1134.463,"endTime":1139.583,"body":"the productivity of the team's writing"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1134.463,"endTime":1139.583,"body":"software, but also had lots of techniques"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1139.583,"endTime":1142.443,"body":"on how to do existing things better."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1142.893,"endTime":1145.133,"body":"And one of the focus was on doing testing."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1145.275,"endTime":1151.495,"body":"So they figured that a lot of the time"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1145.275,"endTime":1151.495,"body":"software is badly written or has bugs"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1151.525,"endTime":1155.967,"body":"because of the the functional requirements"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1151.525,"endTime":1155.967,"body":"are poorly understood by the developers."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1156.327,"endTime":1159.537,"body":"So they assume that it's,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1156.327,"endTime":1159.537,"body":"this is how it should work."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1159.647,"endTime":1163.877,"body":"Then they write the code, then they"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1159.647,"endTime":1163.877,"body":"write some tests and then off they go."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1164.287,"endTime":1167.647,"body":"And because of that poor understanding"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1164.287,"endTime":1167.647,"body":"of requirements, you don't get the right"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1167.647,"endTime":1169.36,"body":"kind of, uh, code, to go with that."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1170.244,"endTime":1172.924,"body":"So that's the first"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1170.244,"endTime":1172.924,"body":"challenge, that was spotted."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1172.924,"endTime":1178.854,"body":"So to address that, the idea of"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1172.924,"endTime":1178.854,"body":"test driven development was created."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1178.994,"endTime":1183.015,"body":"So the idea being instead of"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1178.994,"endTime":1183.015,"body":"writing the code first, you would"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1183.015,"endTime":1189.495,"body":"write unit tests that define the"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1183.015,"endTime":1189.495,"body":"exact spec of the code you would be"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1189.495,"endTime":1191.99,"body":"writing to satisfy that requirement."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1192.48,"endTime":1196.63,"body":"And in the process of defining that"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1192.48,"endTime":1196.63,"body":"test script, your assumptions will"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1196.63,"endTime":1200.11,"body":"be challenged about how this piece"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1196.63,"endTime":1200.11,"body":"of code or method should work."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1200.54,"endTime":1203.14,"body":"You will refine those"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1200.54,"endTime":1203.14,"body":"with your product team."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1203.49,"endTime":1207.93,"body":"And once you've understood right down"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1203.49,"endTime":1207.93,"body":"to the detail of a unit test, how this"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1207.93,"endTime":1212.97,"body":"thing should work, Then you move on"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1207.93,"endTime":1212.97,"body":"to writing code because by that time,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1212.98,"endTime":1216.35,"body":"having thought through all of the"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1212.98,"endTime":1216.35,"body":"eventualities and all of the logic that"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1216.35,"endTime":1219.54,"body":"this code needs to do, you would have"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1216.35,"endTime":1219.54,"body":"a good design in your head anyways."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1219.81,"endTime":1224.04,"body":"So then you go from, something on a"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1219.81,"endTime":1224.04,"body":"piece of paper to something running,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1224.04,"endTime":1225.83,"body":"working and deployed much faster."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1226.53,"endTime":1227.5,"body":"It does work."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1227.98,"endTime":1230.63,"body":"So it's not that this"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1227.98,"endTime":1230.63,"body":"is all, you know, uh,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1230.761,"endTime":1231.721,"body":"it does work."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1231.731,"endTime":1232.411,"body":"It does work."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1232.421,"endTime":1237.561,"body":"And it's maybe just that, like, to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1232.421,"endTime":1237.561,"body":"your point, it takes the unfun part of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1237.561,"endTime":1241.721,"body":"it, the part that's not the dopamine"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1237.561,"endTime":1241.721,"body":"hit, and it front loads it onto"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1241.891,"endTime":1244.151,"body":"what is now what you do every day."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1244.161,"endTime":1247.001,"body":"When you're building things, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1244.161,"endTime":1247.001,"body":"want to go start building, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1247.001,"endTime":1250.861,"body":"don't want to start by validating"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1247.001,"endTime":1250.861,"body":"what the thing you build will do."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1250.911,"endTime":1255.021,"body":"So it kind of becomes a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1250.911,"endTime":1255.021,"body":"showstopper, in a way."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1255.101,"endTime":1257.961,"body":"Not that it's not effective,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1255.101,"endTime":1257.961,"body":"as much as it is just, it's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1257.971,"endTime":1259.201,"body":"unattractive to work that way."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1260.35,"endTime":1260.83,"body":"That's correct."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1260.88,"endTime":1261.21,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1261.39,"endTime":1265.72,"body":"When the the problem is fun, then it's"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1261.39,"endTime":1265.72,"body":"actually really cool and challenging"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1265.72,"endTime":1269.53,"body":"to figure out, okay, how many ways"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1265.72,"endTime":1269.53,"body":"this needs to, can go wrong or how"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1269.53,"endTime":1273.46,"body":"many different permutations do I"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1269.53,"endTime":1273.46,"body":"need to account for and enable?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1273.82,"endTime":1275.16,"body":"And then that's pretty cool."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1275.4,"endTime":1277.48,"body":"Unfortunately, a lot of"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1275.4,"endTime":1277.48,"body":"software is quite mundane."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1278.67,"endTime":1282.56,"body":"And then it just becomes dull work"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1278.67,"endTime":1282.56,"body":"because then you're just writing"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1282.6,"endTime":1285.68,"body":"tests for the sake so that you can"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1282.6,"endTime":1285.68,"body":"move on to writing the code for it."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1285.857,"endTime":1290.677,"body":"uh, that's where the rubber meets the"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1285.857,"endTime":1290.677,"body":"road, where you get teams which aren't"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1290.917,"endTime":1295.187,"body":"fully committed or motivated to do TDD."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1295.877,"endTime":1296.757,"body":"They start."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1297.682,"endTime":1298.502,"body":"Cutting corners."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1298.512,"endTime":1301.232,"body":"So they say, okay, we'll do"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1298.512,"endTime":1301.232,"body":"TDD on the business logic bit."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1301.442,"endTime":1303.542,"body":"Well, we'll leave the, the others."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1303.762,"endTime":1305.282,"body":"We'll kind of we'll see as we go."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1306.118,"endTime":1308.478,"body":"when we talk about that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1306.118,"endTime":1308.478,"body":"work and it's like not, you know, it's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1308.478,"endTime":1312.348,"body":"not sexy, it's not fun to do, how does"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1308.478,"endTime":1312.348,"body":"AI now fit into that conversation?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1312.358,"endTime":1315.438,"body":"Because we've talked traditionally"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1312.358,"endTime":1315.438,"body":"about AI being, you know, it fills"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1315.438,"endTime":1317.618,"body":"in and does that mundane work."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1318.235,"endTime":1321.095,"body":"takes me back to the,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1318.235,"endTime":1321.095,"body":"the first thing I said, the purpose of"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1321.115,"endTime":1326.005,"body":"TDD was to make sure that no piece of"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1321.115,"endTime":1326.005,"body":"code goes untested because what you're"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1326.005,"endTime":1329.405,"body":"trying to reduce, production incident"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1326.005,"endTime":1329.405,"body":"and what you're trying to improve is"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1329.635,"endTime":1333.355,"body":"your code quality and your delivery rate."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1333.7,"endTime":1336.72,"body":"So the fewer faults there are in"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1333.7,"endTime":1336.72,"body":"the code that you're pushing out,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1336.72,"endTime":1339.99,"body":"the faster your entire team works."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1341.62,"endTime":1347.64,"body":"if that is the goal, the path you take"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1341.62,"endTime":1347.64,"body":"to reach that goal can be many, right?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1347.7,"endTime":1352.33,"body":"So TDD was invented, I think, 25 years"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1347.7,"endTime":1352.33,"body":"ago, before my time for sure, because"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1352.33,"endTime":1354.02,"body":"I always worked in a TDD environment."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1354.66,"endTime":1359.35,"body":"and that was the time when the only"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1354.66,"endTime":1359.35,"body":"way to write a unit test was to get"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1359.38,"endTime":1360.76,"body":"a developer to write a unit test."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1361.48,"endTime":1363.76,"body":"There was no other options, which"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1361.48,"endTime":1363.76,"body":"means there was only a singular"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1363.76,"endTime":1366.96,"body":"path from, I have something"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1363.76,"endTime":1366.96,"body":"and I want something tested."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1367.59,"endTime":1368.59,"body":"now we have options."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1368.78,"endTime":1373.06,"body":"Now we have AI tools, which"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1368.78,"endTime":1373.06,"body":"can do software testing."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1373.58,"endTime":1374.95,"body":"And I mean, it's all pretty new."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1374.99,"endTime":1375.87,"body":"The whole field is new."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1375.87,"endTime":1379.35,"body":"So we're still figuring out what"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1375.87,"endTime":1379.35,"body":"works and what doesn't and where"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1379.35,"endTime":1381.06,"body":"to use which specific tool."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1381.5,"endTime":1384.223,"body":"But now more parts that have opened up."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1384.942,"endTime":1387.892,"body":"I mean, the reason we're having the"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1384.942,"endTime":1387.892,"body":"discussion today as well, and I'm"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1387.892,"endTime":1390.712,"body":"going to be in California next week"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1387.892,"endTime":1390.712,"body":"talking about this, during developer"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1390.712,"endTime":1394.792,"body":"week too, is the fact that now"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1390.712,"endTime":1394.792,"body":"that we have more paths, it will be"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1394.792,"endTime":1397.462,"body":"foolish not to try to traverse them."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1397.732,"endTime":1400.882,"body":"So let's at least walk down the"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1397.732,"endTime":1400.882,"body":"path, see what we find, right?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1401.638,"endTime":1406.348,"body":"So, I understand lots of people swear"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1401.638,"endTime":1406.348,"body":"by TDD because it has delivered and if"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1406.348,"endTime":1408.878,"body":"you can stick to it, it does deliver."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1408.998,"endTime":1415.038,"body":"The challenge is, it takes a lot of time,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1408.998,"endTime":1415.038,"body":"development time that you could utilize"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1415.198,"endTime":1417.988,"body":"working on better features, better design."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1418.318,"endTime":1420.988,"body":"Because the thing with software"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1418.318,"endTime":1420.988,"body":"engineering, there's always a lot more to"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1420.988,"endTime":1422.648,"body":"do than the developers have time to do."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1423.118,"endTime":1427.058,"body":"So with AI, what you can do is take"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1423.118,"endTime":1427.058,"body":"away this mundane work, automate it"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1427.058,"endTime":1431.438,"body":"away, give the developer back their 20"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1427.058,"endTime":1431.438,"body":"30 percent of the time they spent doing"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1431.478,"endTime":1435.948,"body":"TDD at the moment, and let them focus"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1431.478,"endTime":1435.948,"body":"on other more, higher value targets."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1436.574,"endTime":1439.004,"body":"And I think that's the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1436.574,"endTime":1439.004,"body":"core takeaway here is that there's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1439.004,"endTime":1442.754,"body":"an opportunity to free up the time"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1439.004,"endTime":1442.754,"body":"that you might spend doing other"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1442.754,"endTime":1445.964,"body":"things or you know, writing unit"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1442.754,"endTime":1445.964,"body":"tests and spend them in time doing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1445.964,"endTime":1448.224,"body":"more productive and impactful things."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1448.504,"endTime":1451.964,"body":"It frees up developer time to,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1448.504,"endTime":1451.964,"body":"focus on those higher level"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1452.034,"endTime":1453.854,"body":"problems that you can't automate."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1455.088,"endTime":1455.748,"body":"Definitely."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1455.828,"endTime":1459.358,"body":"And the other benefit, which is kind"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1455.828,"endTime":1459.358,"body":"of unsaid that people are only now"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1459.368,"endTime":1463.238,"body":"starting to see, and you get that"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1459.368,"endTime":1463.238,"body":"with certain tools, but not others,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1463.818,"endTime":1468.051,"body":"is the human mind is brilliant, but"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1463.818,"endTime":1468.051,"body":"one thing it's not is consistent."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1468.541,"endTime":1471.081,"body":"this is why you always have"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1468.541,"endTime":1471.081,"body":"these arguments in, development"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1471.081,"endTime":1472.811,"body":"teams about standardization."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1472.821,"endTime":1474.271,"body":"This is how we write unit tests."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1474.271,"endTime":1476.691,"body":"You'll get linters involved,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1474.271,"endTime":1476.691,"body":"so on and so forth."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1477.171,"endTime":1481.361,"body":"One of the ways you can, so the benefit"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1477.171,"endTime":1481.361,"body":"you can, might get with an AI tool,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1481.441,"endTime":1484.731,"body":"which is deterministic, which always"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1481.441,"endTime":1484.731,"body":"produces the same kind of code and"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1484.731,"endTime":1490.566,"body":"same kind of style, is that You can"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1484.731,"endTime":1490.566,"body":"standardize the style of tests you write."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1490.986,"endTime":1496.016,"body":"So regardless of whether it's my code"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1490.986,"endTime":1496.016,"body":"or your code or someone else's code, the"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1496.076,"endTime":1500.736,"body":"testing, it follows a standard pattern"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1496.076,"endTime":1500.736,"body":"that you have approved and adopted."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1500.736,"endTime":1507.296,"body":"And that is, that takes away a"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1500.736,"endTime":1507.296,"body":"lot of the cognitive load that"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1507.296,"endTime":1508.706,"body":"you're put under as a developer."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1508.726,"endTime":1512.346,"body":"The first time you see a piece of code"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1508.726,"endTime":1512.346,"body":"you've never seen, then you go to the test"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1512.366,"endTime":1514.026,"body":"script to see, okay, what it is doing."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1514.226,"endTime":1516.146,"body":"And every test script is"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1514.226,"endTime":1516.146,"body":"written in a different way."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1516.871,"endTime":1518.131,"body":"All of those problems go away."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1518.92,"endTime":1521.65,"body":"And when we talk about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1518.92,"endTime":1521.65,"body":"the way that developers can use this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1521.69,"endTime":1525.45,"body":"tool, you know, part of it is that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1521.69,"endTime":1525.45,"body":"consistency, so they know what to expect."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1525.75,"endTime":1528.07,"body":"And I think consistency"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1525.75,"endTime":1528.07,"body":"is a core part of trust."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1528.74,"endTime":1532.66,"body":"There's a recent Stack Overflow"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1528.74,"endTime":1532.66,"body":"developer survey that found that only"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1532.66,"endTime":1537.29,"body":"43 percent of developers right now"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1532.66,"endTime":1537.29,"body":"at work feel that AI is accurate."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1537.845,"endTime":1541.745,"body":"And when we talk about a process, like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1537.845,"endTime":1541.745,"body":"the last mile, which is testing, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1541.745,"endTime":1546.375,"body":"know, doing coverage on an application,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1541.745,"endTime":1546.375,"body":"or in some cases, the first mile, if"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1546.375,"endTime":1550.925,"body":"you're doing that up front, before"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1546.375,"endTime":1550.925,"body":"you develop anything, how can we trust"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1550.945,"endTime":1555.545,"body":"or how can we build that trust in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1550.945,"endTime":1555.545,"body":"developers for using a tool like this?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1555.545,"endTime":1556.391,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1556.391,"endTime":1559.391,"body":"It has to come"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1556.391,"endTime":1559.391,"body":"from being transparent about what"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1559.391,"endTime":1561.071,"body":"the technology can and can't do."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1561.511,"endTime":1564.694,"body":"And how it works, what we're"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1561.511,"endTime":1564.694,"body":"seeing currently, there's a"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1564.694,"endTime":1566.964,"body":"Cambrian explosion of AI tools."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1566.974,"endTime":1568.214,"body":"Everyone's making one, right?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1568.384,"endTime":1570.024,"body":"Everyone and their mother and grandmother."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1570.414,"endTime":1575.284,"body":"but a lot of the time they're just,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1570.414,"endTime":1575.284,"body":"uh, what sometimes pejoratively"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1575.284,"endTime":1576.974,"body":"called LLM wrappers, right?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1577.304,"endTime":1579.694,"body":"I think they add a lot more"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1577.304,"endTime":1579.694,"body":"value than just LLM wrappers,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1579.694,"endTime":1580.834,"body":"but that's what people call them."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1581.434,"endTime":1584.494,"body":"what's important from a"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1581.434,"endTime":1584.494,"body":"developer's perspective."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1584.494,"endTime":1587.544,"body":"So I work with a lot of teams"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1584.494,"endTime":1587.544,"body":"which are evaluating different"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1587.554,"endTime":1589.164,"body":"AI tools for different problems."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1589.619,"endTime":1595.429,"body":"I don't think the software development"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1589.619,"endTime":1595.429,"body":"lifecycle has a lot of tooling currently,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1595.769,"endTime":1597.099,"body":"and there's a good reason for that."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1597.169,"endTime":1600.569,"body":"It is very hard to use"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1597.169,"endTime":1600.569,"body":"one tool that does it all."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1600.739,"endTime":1604.039,"body":"I don't think we're ever going to get"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1600.739,"endTime":1604.039,"body":"to a point in software engineering"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1604.309,"endTime":1607.469,"body":"where you have one tool that's"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1604.309,"endTime":1607.469,"body":"taking care of every single problem."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1607.809,"endTime":1611.959,"body":"And the reason for that is there are"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1607.809,"endTime":1611.959,"body":"multiple people involved in the chain and"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1611.959,"endTime":1613.519,"body":"they have different problems to solve."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1614.089,"endTime":1618.149,"body":"If we just focus on the testing part"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1614.089,"endTime":1618.149,"body":"of it, even in testing, often you have"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1618.309,"endTime":1620.129,"body":"Two teams involved in many companies."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1620.129,"endTime":1623.249,"body":"You have the developer writing the"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1620.129,"endTime":1623.249,"body":"code, and there's a testing team"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1623.299,"endTime":1627.049,"body":"that's completely separate, often"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1623.299,"endTime":1627.049,"body":"working off a Cucumber script or"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1627.079,"endTime":1628.269,"body":"just, you know, a JIRA ticket."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1628.319,"endTime":1630.559,"body":"The developer will just give"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1628.319,"endTime":1630.559,"body":"them a code and they'll test it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1631.28,"endTime":1631.73,"body":"right."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1631.749,"endTime":1635.699,"body":"because of these reasons,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1631.749,"endTime":1635.699,"body":"I don't think people should try to go"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1635.699,"endTime":1638.299,"body":"and find one tool that does everything."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1638.926,"endTime":1642.336,"body":"and luckily we haven't seen a"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1638.926,"endTime":1642.336,"body":"company yet that's trying to do that."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1642.856,"endTime":1644.666,"body":"So then we come to the trust part."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1644.806,"endTime":1648.026,"body":"So you can only trust something"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1644.806,"endTime":1648.026,"body":"once you know how it works."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1648.506,"endTime":1650.386,"body":"And whether it delivers, right?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1650.756,"endTime":1655.116,"body":"So you trust your toaster not to burn your"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1650.756,"endTime":1655.116,"body":"bread every morning because you did some"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1655.116,"endTime":1656.656,"body":"trial and error when you first bought it."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1656.706,"endTime":1658.456,"body":"You set it to three, then it burnt it."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1658.486,"endTime":1659.146,"body":"So then you set it to two."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1659.616,"endTime":1661.476,"body":"So yeah, that's, that's about what I want."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1661.796,"endTime":1665.586,"body":"So there will be, every new technology"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1661.796,"endTime":1665.586,"body":"is going to be some trial and error."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1665.666,"endTime":1669.556,"body":"People need to be willing to"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1665.666,"endTime":1669.556,"body":"experiment and see what works for them."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1669.936,"endTime":1673.816,"body":"Because I, uh, the company I work"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1669.936,"endTime":1673.816,"body":"for, DiffBlue, for example, we"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1673.816,"endTime":1677.556,"body":"have a tool that works extremely"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1673.816,"endTime":1677.556,"body":"well for certain companies, but are"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1677.556,"endTime":1681.206,"body":"completely useless to other teams"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1677.556,"endTime":1681.206,"body":"in, solving other types of problems."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1681.216,"endTime":1684.886,"body":"So there's no, unfortunately, very"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1681.216,"endTime":1684.886,"body":"roundabout way of saying there's no"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1685.116,"endTime":1688.176,"body":"standard one answer to how to build trust."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1688.376,"endTime":1693.026,"body":"It's going to have to be built slowly"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1688.376,"endTime":1693.026,"body":"with trial and error, people finding"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1693.026,"endTime":1696.666,"body":"out which tools and which technologies"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1693.026,"endTime":1696.666,"body":"solve a given problem better."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1697.506,"endTime":1699.526,"body":"Within testing, I think."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1700.476,"endTime":1705.016,"body":"There is a room for LLMs and"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1700.476,"endTime":1705.016,"body":"other technologies as well."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1705.426,"endTime":1710.406,"body":"I also think in testing what you want"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1705.426,"endTime":1710.406,"body":"is less creativity and more determinism."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1711.766,"endTime":1713.986,"body":"Because you don't want your"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1711.766,"endTime":1713.986,"body":"test to work differently on a"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1714.006,"endTime":1715.596,"body":"Tuesday than they do on a Friday."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1716.072,"endTime":1716.882,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1717.536,"endTime":1721.916,"body":"that is something"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1717.536,"endTime":1721.916,"body":"where testing is very different from"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1721.916,"endTime":1725.436,"body":"when you're actually writing code,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1721.916,"endTime":1725.436,"body":"trying to, you know, deliver a ticket."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1726.662,"endTime":1729.782,"body":"As part of that too,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1726.662,"endTime":1729.782,"body":"there's a connection, you know, between"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1730.195,"endTime":1734.845,"body":"how much code coverage you might"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1730.195,"endTime":1734.845,"body":"get and with how much like quality"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1734.845,"endTime":1736.975,"body":"your software can ultimately reach."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1736.975,"endTime":1739.525,"body":"But is that an actual connection?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1739.525,"endTime":1743.685,"body":"Like if you have the If you have"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1739.525,"endTime":1743.685,"body":"an AI that's able to provide that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1743.685,"endTime":1748.955,"body":"full test coverage, what do you gain"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1743.685,"endTime":1748.955,"body":"that you maybe don't if you had a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1748.965,"endTime":1753.995,"body":"human that was making a non standard"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1748.965,"endTime":1753.995,"body":"approach to doing that same task?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1754.622,"endTime":1757.132,"body":"Well, the first thing"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1754.622,"endTime":1757.132,"body":"you get is predictability, right?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1757.242,"endTime":1761.322,"body":"So, once you've seen how a tool"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1757.242,"endTime":1761.322,"body":"works, particularly AIs which are"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1761.322,"endTime":1765.162,"body":"more deterministic, So once you've"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1761.322,"endTime":1765.162,"body":"seen it working on one application"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1765.302,"endTime":1769.262,"body":"and the kind of test suite it's"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1765.302,"endTime":1769.262,"body":"writing, its style, how it creates its"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1769.262,"endTime":1773.912,"body":"assertions, the strategies it uses to"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1769.262,"endTime":1773.912,"body":"test a given piece of business logic."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1774.512,"endTime":1780.887,"body":"If you like that, and that too is, More"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1774.512,"endTime":1780.887,"body":"deterministic than probabilistic, then you"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1780.887,"endTime":1783.247,"body":"can trust it to work elsewhere as well."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1783.897,"endTime":1788.897,"body":"And this is where we see a lot of"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1783.897,"endTime":1788.897,"body":"POCs happening currently across,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1789.127,"endTime":1792.297,"body":"the technology industry, and that's"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1789.127,"endTime":1792.297,"body":"what they're trying to find out."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1792.607,"endTime":1796.517,"body":"Which part of a POC"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1792.607,"endTime":1796.517,"body":"result can we deem to be."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1796.682,"endTime":1798.682,"body":"repeatable, and which was a fluke."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1799.588,"endTime":1799.998,"body":"I see."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1799.998,"endTime":1802.648,"body":"So that's how engineering leaders"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1799.998,"endTime":1802.648,"body":"are really evaluating that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1802.658,"endTime":1804.258,"body":"They're looking for that repeatability."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1804.638,"endTime":1806.958,"body":"And what, is there anything that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1804.638,"endTime":1806.958,"body":"they measure in particular when"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1806.958,"endTime":1809.618,"body":"they, when they're evaluating"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1806.958,"endTime":1809.618,"body":"a tool like this to see if it's"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1809.642,"endTime":1812.402,"body":"Uh, so I can speak,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1809.642,"endTime":1812.402,"body":"uh, I can speak for testing, because"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1812.522,"endTime":1814.142,"body":"I'm very close to that currently."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1814.202,"endTime":1818.742,"body":"so in testing, we've long used,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1814.202,"endTime":1818.742,"body":"unit test line coverage as a measure"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1818.752,"endTime":1822.772,"body":"of, how good a test suite is and"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1818.752,"endTime":1822.772,"body":"how well your code is tested."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1823.252,"endTime":1827.542,"body":"I think we need to get a bit beyond"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1823.252,"endTime":1827.542,"body":"that, particularly in an AI world."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1828.092,"endTime":1829.732,"body":"I'll give you a very"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1828.092,"endTime":1829.732,"body":"good example for that."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1829.892,"endTime":1834.052,"body":"So when developers write tests, they"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1829.892,"endTime":1834.052,"body":"tend to write tests about eight to"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1834.052,"endTime":1838.062,"body":"10 tests at a time, they'll create"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1834.052,"endTime":1838.062,"body":"a pull request, you can review it."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1838.252,"endTime":1839.862,"body":"Somebody else can come and review it."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1840.202,"endTime":1843.242,"body":"AI has the capability to"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1840.202,"endTime":1843.242,"body":"go into an application and"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1843.242,"endTime":1845.687,"body":"write, 50,000 tests in one go."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1846.627,"endTime":1850.307,"body":"Now, nobody's sitting through and"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1846.627,"endTime":1850.307,"body":"validating those 50,000 tests, right?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1850.497,"endTime":1855.077,"body":"We do POCs with companies who have these"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1850.497,"endTime":1855.077,"body":"large legacy applications have, which"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1855.077,"endTime":1858.437,"body":"haven't been touched in say 10 years,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1855.077,"endTime":1858.437,"body":"because nobody knows how they work."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1858.667,"endTime":1859.587,"body":"They don't want to break it."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1859.677,"endTime":1860.937,"body":"They do want to modernize them."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1861.597,"endTime":1863.937,"body":"And to be able to modernize"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1861.597,"endTime":1863.937,"body":"them, they need a test suite in"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1863.947,"endTime":1867.137,"body":"place so they can validate what"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1863.947,"endTime":1867.137,"body":"the new is the same as the old."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1867.857,"endTime":1870.744,"body":"for these kinds of problems,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1867.857,"endTime":1870.744,"body":"AI is excellent because what"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1870.744,"endTime":1872.024,"body":"it can do is say, okay, fine."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1872.604,"endTime":1875.704,"body":"Give me your 10 million lines"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1872.604,"endTime":1875.704,"body":"of code and I will go and"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1875.704,"endTime":1876.804,"body":"write all the tests you need."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1877.324,"endTime":1878.434,"body":"So far, so good."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1878.624,"endTime":1881.594,"body":"It's done two years worth"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1878.624,"endTime":1881.594,"body":"of job in two hours."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1881.984,"endTime":1883.464,"body":"But how do I know that it's good?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1883.834,"endTime":1885.314,"body":"That's the question"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1883.834,"endTime":1885.314,"body":"engineering leaders ask."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1885.324,"endTime":1886.684,"body":"That's the question developers ask, right?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1886.684,"endTime":1888.514,"body":"Okay, 50,000 tests you've written."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1889.034,"endTime":1891.854,"body":"So the first answer usually is to"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1889.034,"endTime":1891.854,"body":"say, oh, let's look at line coverage."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1892.789,"endTime":1896.539,"body":"So you can look at line coverage, but"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1892.789,"endTime":1896.539,"body":"developers listening to this will know,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1896.739,"endTime":1900.739,"body":"and I've done this in my life as well as"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1896.739,"endTime":1900.739,"body":"a developer, you can game line coverage."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1900.989,"endTime":1904.089,"body":"Line coverage is the easiest"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1900.989,"endTime":1904.089,"body":"thing to game, and if we know"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1904.089,"endTime":1906.009,"body":"it, then AI knows it too."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1906.109,"endTime":1909.339,"body":"And I've seen examples of AI just"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1906.109,"endTime":1909.339,"body":"gaming line coverage, writing an"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1909.379,"endTime":1912.529,"body":"excellent test that does nothing,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1909.379,"endTime":1912.529,"body":"but does give you very good coverage."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1913.189,"endTime":1915.349,"body":"We need to get one step beyond."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1915.529,"endTime":1918.929,"body":"Now when humans are writing unit"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1915.529,"endTime":1918.929,"body":"tests, and their tests are being"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1918.939,"endTime":1922.704,"body":"reviewed, And the review is really"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1918.939,"endTime":1922.704,"body":"good, then you do get these problems,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1922.924,"endTime":1923.954,"body":"these problems do get caught."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1924.814,"endTime":1927.414,"body":"With AI, uh, we're going"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1924.814,"endTime":1927.414,"body":"to have to get smarter."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1927.454,"endTime":1931.084,"body":"And there's this, new technique that I"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1927.454,"endTime":1931.084,"body":"think is gaining ground, which is good."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1931.144,"endTime":1934.004,"body":"it's not a silver bullet, but it's"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1931.144,"endTime":1934.004,"body":"better than line coverage alone,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1934.054,"endTime":1935.524,"body":"which is called mutation testing."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1936.634,"endTime":1940.694,"body":"And the way that works, it says,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1936.634,"endTime":1940.694,"body":"okay, you've written a test suite."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1940.874,"endTime":1943.024,"body":"Now, whether you've written it or"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1940.874,"endTime":1943.024,"body":"AI written it, it doesn't matter."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1943.024,"endTime":1943.494,"body":"It doesn't matter."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1943.927,"endTime":1947.927,"body":"the purpose of a unit test is to"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1943.927,"endTime":1947.927,"body":"catch, unwanted changes, regressions"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1948.027,"endTime":1950.397,"body":"in the test suite, right, and"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1948.027,"endTime":1950.397,"body":"any business logic faults."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1950.867,"endTime":1954.147,"body":"So what I'm going to do is I'm going to"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1950.867,"endTime":1954.147,"body":"take your test suite that you've written,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1954.877,"endTime":1960.317,"body":"keep it as is, I'm going to then jump"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1954.877,"endTime":1960.317,"body":"into your code and start making changes."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1960.827,"endTime":1961.717,"body":"Complete chaos."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1961.797,"endTime":1964.717,"body":"So if you have a check in"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1961.797,"endTime":1964.717,"body":"there which says if age is less"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1964.717,"endTime":1966.097,"body":"than 50, I'm going to flip it."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1966.457,"endTime":1970.547,"body":"I'd say if age is greater than 50 and"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1966.457,"endTime":1970.547,"body":"run that, run your test against it."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1971.067,"endTime":1975.137,"body":"If your test still passes, and I"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1971.067,"endTime":1975.137,"body":"hope that's not somewhere in some"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1975.157,"endTime":1978.877,"body":"pension calculator app, because that"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1975.157,"endTime":1978.877,"body":"is not looking at the age at all."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1980.307,"endTime":1982.577,"body":"that's the sort of thing"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1980.307,"endTime":1982.577,"body":"mutation testing tries to do."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1982.907,"endTime":1985.577,"body":"Logic flipping is only one of"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1982.907,"endTime":1985.577,"body":"the many techniques it uses."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1985.577,"endTime":1990.187,"body":"But the idea is that I'm going to change"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1985.577,"endTime":1990.187,"body":"your code six ways to Sunday, and I'm"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1990.337,"endTime":1992.487,"body":"going to see how many of your test cases."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1993.297,"endTime":1994.937,"body":"Catch those faults."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1995.347,"endTime":2000.077,"body":"If your test cases catch 100, make 100"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":1995.347,"endTime":2000.077,"body":"changes and your tests catch all of them,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2000.637,"endTime":2002.637,"body":"then your mutation coverage is 100%."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2002.837,"endTime":2005.447,"body":"Your tests are actually really"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2002.837,"endTime":2005.447,"body":"good because even the smallest"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2005.447,"endTime":2006.707,"body":"of changes gets picked up."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2007.487,"endTime":2010.957,"body":"if you're only catching 20 of the"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2007.487,"endTime":2010.957,"body":"faults I'm introducing in the code and"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2010.957,"endTime":2014.597,"body":"some of the faults are logic changes"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2010.957,"endTime":2014.597,"body":"like I told you about, So instead of"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2014.637,"endTime":2017.967,"body":"checking for equality, I start checking"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2014.637,"endTime":2017.967,"body":"for not equality, and then you're"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2017.967,"endTime":2022.387,"body":"still passing, then that test is not"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2017.967,"endTime":2022.387,"body":"preventing anything out there, right?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2022.887,"endTime":2026.877,"body":"So the mutation testing is brilliant"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2022.887,"endTime":2026.877,"body":"in catching the, in scoring"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2026.887,"endTime":2028.877,"body":"your unit test suite at scale."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2029.307,"endTime":2033.067,"body":"It gives you two numbers, it gives you"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2029.307,"endTime":2033.067,"body":"mutation coverage, which tells you,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2033.267,"endTime":2037.492,"body":"which is a measure of, uh, It gives you"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2033.267,"endTime":2037.492,"body":"test strength, which is a measure of"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2037.492,"endTime":2039.712,"body":"how good a specific unit test could be."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2040.252,"endTime":2043.862,"body":"And then it gives you mutation coverage,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2040.252,"endTime":2043.862,"body":"which tells you how much of this goodness"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2043.882,"endTime":2045.342,"body":"is spread across your application."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2045.342,"endTime":2046.672,"body":"It's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2046.678,"endTime":2049.618,"body":"get all these different"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2046.678,"endTime":2049.618,"body":"actual metrics for figuring out if"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2049.618,"endTime":2051.778,"body":"your code is, you know, good to go."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2051.778,"endTime":2055.168,"body":"And if changes to it have"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2051.778,"endTime":2055.168,"body":"modified it down the downstream."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2055.168,"endTime":2056.578,"body":"And this is actually really impactful."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2056.578,"endTime":2057.208,"body":"I can imagine."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2057.208,"endTime":2061.383,"body":"For modernizing, like you said, having"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2057.208,"endTime":2061.383,"body":"that those tests in place beforehand."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2061.383,"endTime":2062.553,"body":"Imagine like a really, really."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2062.713,"endTime":2067.043,"body":"Old legacy system within it, like the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2062.713,"endTime":2067.043,"body":"government or an enterprise somewhere, and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2067.043,"endTime":2068.563,"body":"they have to turn into something modern."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2068.913,"endTime":2070.933,"body":"And think of how impactful"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2068.913,"endTime":2070.933,"body":"that project could be."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2070.983,"endTime":2074.883,"body":"But think of how disastrous it could go"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2070.983,"endTime":2074.883,"body":"if they don't have a way of knowing if the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2074.883,"endTime":2076.963,"body":"new machine does the same as the old one."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2077.853,"endTime":2079.333,"body":"So that's like a really big unlock."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2079.513,"endTime":2080.943,"body":"for modernizing stuff."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2081.372,"endTime":2085.072,"body":"When you talked earlier about how it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2081.372,"endTime":2085.072,"body":"worked in this thing that stuck with me"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2085.072,"endTime":2088.602,"body":"about it being deterministic, and about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2085.072,"endTime":2088.602,"body":"it doing the same thing over and over and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2088.602,"endTime":2092.162,"body":"over again with great success, you know,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2088.602,"endTime":2092.162,"body":"that really works against the narrative"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2092.172,"endTime":2096.582,"body":"for me of how I envision AI and LLMs"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2092.172,"endTime":2096.582,"body":"working today, because we all know that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2096.582,"endTime":2101.182,"body":"they're random, and they're stochastic,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2096.582,"endTime":2101.182,"body":"you know, they want to be different every"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2101.182,"endTime":2102.612,"body":"time they don't like to repeat themselves."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2103.592,"endTime":2107.252,"body":"how do you approach using AI to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2103.592,"endTime":2107.252,"body":"solve something like testing if"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2107.252,"endTime":2108.892,"body":"you want a standardized approach?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2109.202,"endTime":2111.042,"body":"Um, and what's the unlock there?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2112.325,"endTime":2116.405,"body":"great question, because"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2112.325,"endTime":2116.405,"body":"one of the things I've So we've been"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2116.405,"endTime":2118.985,"body":"in business for about six years now."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2119.235,"endTime":2121.635,"body":"We're a company based in Oxford, England."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2121.915,"endTime":2123.895,"body":"We spun out of the university."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2123.945,"endTime":2130.055,"body":"and When we were starting out, there"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2123.945,"endTime":2130.055,"body":"were no LLMs, so the, they hadn't sucked"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2130.055,"endTime":2131.555,"body":"all the mind share at the industry."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2131.555,"endTime":2136.055,"body":"So AI and machine learning used"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2131.555,"endTime":2136.055,"body":"to mean more than just LLMs."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2136.535,"endTime":2141.625,"body":"Now, thanks to the success of"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2136.535,"endTime":2141.625,"body":"ChatGPT and OpenAI every AI has now"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2141.625,"endTime":2144.145,"body":"been completely consumed by LLM."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2144.205,"endTime":2144.925,"body":"So if you speak."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2145.645,"endTime":2146.785,"body":"You must mean LLM."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2147.245,"endTime":2151.135,"body":"And, uh, this is something I actually"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2147.245,"endTime":2151.135,"body":"struggle with in my job because, uh,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2151.165,"endTime":2154.215,"body":"when we are selling into the large"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2151.165,"endTime":2154.215,"body":"companies, banks, et cetera, they"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2154.225,"endTime":2158.425,"body":"have these model risk reviews and they"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2154.225,"endTime":2158.425,"body":"will ask you questions like, okay,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2158.425,"endTime":2160.095,"body":"what kind of LLM model are you using?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2160.205,"endTime":2161.585,"body":"And then I'll answer, we don't."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2161.935,"endTime":2164.965,"body":"Say, oh, because you don't have a local"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2161.935,"endTime":2164.965,"body":"LLM, do you have it in the backend?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2164.975,"endTime":2166.205,"body":"It's like, we don't have an LLM."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2166.615,"endTime":2167.865,"body":"All right, so where is the LLM?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2168.115,"endTime":2168.935,"body":"We don't have an LLM."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2170.025,"endTime":2175.685,"body":"It's the challenge that, uh, uh,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2170.025,"endTime":2175.685,"body":"that because ChatGPT is the most"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2175.685,"endTime":2177.045,"body":"successful AI product, right?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2177.205,"endTime":2180.255,"body":"so that's how I would approach"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2177.205,"endTime":2180.255,"body":"this problem, that there"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2180.255,"endTime":2181.795,"body":"are many ways to do AI."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2182.505,"endTime":2186.925,"body":"So people looking at doing"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2182.505,"endTime":2186.925,"body":"testing often start with Copilot"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2186.985,"endTime":2188.015,"body":"because they already have Copilot."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2188.415,"endTime":2188.705,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2189.575,"endTime":2192.675,"body":"They're already using Copilot"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2189.575,"endTime":2192.675,"body":"for testing and Microsoft has a"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2192.685,"endTime":2195.435,"body":"stellar sales force, credit to them."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2195.585,"endTime":2196.665,"body":"They already pushed it everywhere."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2196.685,"endTime":2200.715,"body":"So everyone is, we, like we say"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2196.685,"endTime":2200.715,"body":"in Diffblue internally, we need to"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2200.715,"endTime":2202.445,"body":"basically treat Copilot like weather."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2202.955,"endTime":2204.115,"body":"It's going to be there."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2204.315,"endTime":2207.625,"body":"We are going to have to prove that"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2204.315,"endTime":2207.625,"body":"there are other ways to do testing and"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2207.625,"endTime":2209.215,"body":"there are better ways to do testing."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2209.695,"endTime":2214.405,"body":"And so recently, uh, towards that, we did"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2209.695,"endTime":2214.405,"body":"this benchmarking study against Copilot."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2215.209,"endTime":2219.779,"body":"And, uh, just to give a quick, brief"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2215.209,"endTime":2219.779,"body":"overview, uses reinforcement learning"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2219.779,"endTime":2222.459,"body":"model to understand how your code works."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2223.289,"endTime":2225.219,"body":"and then write unit tests for it."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2225.949,"endTime":2228.979,"body":"We don't look at just the"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2225.949,"endTime":2228.979,"body":"plain text source code."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2229.129,"endTime":2231.439,"body":"We also look at the built by"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2229.129,"endTime":2231.439,"body":"code of the application, which"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2231.459,"endTime":2234.229,"body":"gives us the computational"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2231.459,"endTime":2234.229,"body":"understanding of what's going on."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2234.959,"endTime":2239.544,"body":"So, when we're not able to write a test,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2234.959,"endTime":2239.544,"body":"We will also leave behind testability"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2239.584,"endTime":2241.134,"body":"insights like, Hey, do you know what?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2241.354,"endTime":2243.404,"body":"This thing is missing a getter."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2243.664,"endTime":2246.404,"body":"And because this property is missing a"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2243.664,"endTime":2246.404,"body":"getter, I can't write a good test for it."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2246.624,"endTime":2249.834,"body":"Go add a package with a private"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2246.624,"endTime":2249.834,"body":"getter, come back, run it again, and"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2249.834,"endTime":2250.924,"body":"you're going to get a better test."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2251.484,"endTime":2253.774,"body":"And all of this works"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2251.484,"endTime":2253.774,"body":"completely deterministically."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2254.284,"endTime":2256.124,"body":"And so compared to Copilot."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2256.174,"endTime":2259.944,"body":"So what we wanted to understand"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2256.174,"endTime":2259.944,"body":"was, okay, how do we compare against"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2259.944,"endTime":2261.174,"body":"all of these LLM based tools?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2261.444,"endTime":2265.92,"body":"So, we did a study that found"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2261.444,"endTime":2265.92,"body":"that, unit test generation, agent."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2265.93,"endTime":2269.89,"body":"So it's basically what we're comparing"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2265.93,"endTime":2269.89,"body":"is an agentic system like DiffBlue,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2270.02,"endTime":2271.29,"body":"which is completely hands off."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2271.37,"endTime":2273.39,"body":"There's no LLMs, there"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2271.37,"endTime":2273.39,"body":"are no prompts to be done."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2273.62,"endTime":2274.92,"body":"There's no, you know, back and forth."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2274.96,"endTime":2277.91,"body":"You just click a button, walk away,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2274.96,"endTime":2277.91,"body":"make yourself a cup of tea, come"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2277.91,"endTime":2279.09,"body":"back and you've got your test suite."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2280.2,"endTime":2284.15,"body":"So we're comparing this agentic"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2280.2,"endTime":2284.15,"body":"system Versus something that is"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2284.15,"endTime":2287.694,"body":"more collaborative, more prompt"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2284.15,"endTime":2287.694,"body":"based, thing like, uh, Copilot,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2287.694,"endTime":2289.214,"body":"but other LLM tools are similar."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2289.884,"endTime":2293.144,"body":"And what we found was that,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2289.884,"endTime":2293.144,"body":"when using DiffBlue, developer"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2293.154,"endTime":2294.894,"body":"was 26 times more productive."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2295.664,"endTime":2298.684,"body":"Then using Copilot, which is"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2295.664,"endTime":2298.684,"body":"clearly easy to understand because"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2298.694,"endTime":2299.714,"body":"you don't have to engage with it."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2299.894,"endTime":2301.834,"body":"You run a command, you turn"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2299.894,"endTime":2301.834,"body":"around, you do other things."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2301.964,"endTime":2303.554,"body":"Then you come back,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2301.964,"endTime":2303.554,"body":"you've got your job done."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2303.914,"endTime":2306.534,"body":"Whereas with the Copilot, you know,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2303.914,"endTime":2306.534,"body":"you're fiddling with the prompt."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2306.814,"endTime":2310.004,"body":"There's this whole practice of prompt"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2306.814,"endTime":2310.004,"body":"engineering coming up, which I think will"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2310.014,"endTime":2313.554,"body":"be quite short lived because companies"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2310.014,"endTime":2313.554,"body":"will get better at doing prompts."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2313.624,"endTime":2314.984,"body":"So then you don't need"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2313.624,"endTime":2314.984,"body":"to become an expert."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2314.984,"endTime":2319.114,"body":"And it's basically like the"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2314.984,"endTime":2319.114,"body":"transition from command line to GUI."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2319.754,"endTime":2322.604,"body":"You can learn all the commands, but then"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2319.754,"endTime":2322.604,"body":"somebody builds a GUI and you just click"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2322.604,"endTime":2325.784,"body":"your buttons, and it's much better."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2325.804,"endTime":2329.664,"body":"So, uh, so that's the one"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2325.804,"endTime":2329.664,"body":"thing that I found, which was"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2329.664,"endTime":2331.084,"body":"actually, that was expected."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2331.084,"endTime":2332.114,"body":"That didn't surprise me."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2332.774,"endTime":2337.994,"body":"What did surprise me was, that, we"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2332.774,"endTime":2337.994,"body":"achieved, uh, significantly higher test"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2337.994,"endTime":2341.484,"body":"coverage than, Copilot every single time."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2342.344,"endTime":2346.764,"body":"And so when you put those two together,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2342.344,"endTime":2346.764,"body":"the fact that it's more productive,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2346.804,"endTime":2351.914,"body":"26 times more productive, and it's"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2346.804,"endTime":2351.914,"body":"giving you better coverage over a"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2351.914,"endTime":2356.564,"body":"year, this translates into covering"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2351.914,"endTime":2356.564,"body":"exponentially more code without"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2356.564,"endTime":2359.164,"body":"breaks than something like Copilot."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2359.614,"endTime":2366.344,"body":"So the challenge in testing will be in for"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2359.614,"endTime":2366.344,"body":"companies to figure out is this, does this"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2366.344,"endTime":2369.619,"body":"testing require a human in the middle?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2369.899,"endTime":2374.572,"body":"Or can this be completely automated,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2369.899,"endTime":2374.572,"body":"truly autonomous operation?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2375.222,"endTime":2380.612,"body":"We believe, because we've done studies,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2375.222,"endTime":2380.612,"body":"that unit testing is a problem that can be"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2380.612,"endTime":2386.462,"body":"completely automated because it's a very"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2380.612,"endTime":2386.462,"body":"well defined, specific problem that you"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2386.462,"endTime":2388.722,"body":"can train an AI engine to do predictably."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2389.227,"endTime":2392.277,"body":"In a deterministic fashion, so as"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2389.227,"endTime":2392.277,"body":"long as you have the same code,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2392.407,"endTime":2396.137,"body":"and you use the same version of"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2392.407,"endTime":2396.137,"body":"DiffBlue, you'll get the same tests."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2396.657,"endTime":2398.827,"body":"but more importantly, at a higher quality."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2399.457,"endTime":2402.667,"body":"Because, again, you take the"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2399.457,"endTime":2402.667,"body":"probabilisticness away from it,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2403.157,"endTime":2405.867,"body":"and then that allows you to train"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2403.157,"endTime":2405.867,"body":"the model better and do better"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2405.867,"endTime":2407.457,"body":"tests with every release as well."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2408.567,"endTime":2413.457,"body":"When I hear you talk about,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2408.567,"endTime":2413.457,"body":"the way that teams can be using AI and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2413.457,"endTime":2418.577,"body":"thinking about it beyond LLMs, if you are"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2413.457,"endTime":2418.577,"body":"a team right now and you are building,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2418.857,"endTime":2423.466,"body":"AI resources, AI enablement within your"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2418.857,"endTime":2423.466,"body":"org and you're trying out AI, what's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2423.466,"endTime":2428.296,"body":"like a good practice or a good habit that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2423.466,"endTime":2428.296,"body":"you would tell them to be successful?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2429.309,"endTime":2431.932,"body":"I would ask them"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2429.309,"endTime":2431.932,"body":"to ask themselves if they need AI."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2431.932,"endTime":2434.572,"body":"I don't think everybody needs AI."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2434.932,"endTime":2438.906,"body":"think, for example, if you're a"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2434.932,"endTime":2438.906,"body":"small team startup writing some"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2438.906,"endTime":2440.946,"body":"microservices, do you need AI?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2441.276,"endTime":2443.836,"body":"Because the problem is going to be,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2441.276,"endTime":2443.836,"body":"and this is actually going to become a"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2443.836,"endTime":2450.096,"body":"bigger problem, I've noticed this myself,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2443.836,"endTime":2450.096,"body":"AI written code is harder to debug and"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2450.096,"endTime":2452.526,"body":"it's not because it's AI written code."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2453.876,"endTime":2457.166,"body":"If you give me a job to do, I write"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2453.876,"endTime":2457.166,"body":"code and then I ask you to debug"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2457.216,"endTime":2459.436,"body":"it, it will be harder for you to"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2457.216,"endTime":2459.436,"body":"debug because you've not written it."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2460.426,"endTime":2462.096,"body":"So this is, as a developer, we know this."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2462.106,"endTime":2463.936,"body":"We don't like debugging"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2462.106,"endTime":2463.936,"body":"other people's code."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2464.601,"endTime":2466.721,"body":"AI is just other people's code, right?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2466.891,"endTime":2468.201,"body":"It's somebody else writing the code."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2468.201,"endTime":2473.071,"body":"So a lot of developers, this is your"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2468.201,"endTime":2473.071,"body":"co pilot, this is your co pilot who's"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2473.071,"endTime":2476.301,"body":"doing job for you, but it's not you."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2476.811,"endTime":2480.951,"body":"So it is adding friction into the"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2476.811,"endTime":2480.951,"body":"process that when things break and"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2480.951,"endTime":2484.451,"body":"when there are bugs, I am seeing and"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2480.951,"endTime":2484.451,"body":"I'm hearing from companies as well,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2484.451,"endTime":2485.821,"body":"which is why they come to us, right?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2485.891,"endTime":2488.311,"body":"This first place, because most"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2485.891,"endTime":2488.311,"body":"people come to us after having"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2488.331,"endTime":2490.351,"body":"tried co pilot and not liking it for"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2490.462,"endTime":2490.982,"body":"right."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2491.601,"endTime":2492.841,"body":"That it's taking more time."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2492.841,"endTime":2496.471,"body":"So the whole promise of AI making you"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2492.841,"endTime":2496.471,"body":"more productive goes out the window."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2496.671,"endTime":2498.221,"body":"Like it's definitely not"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2496.671,"endTime":2498.221,"body":"making you productive."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2498.401,"endTime":2500.361,"body":"It's maybe making your"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2498.401,"endTime":2500.361,"body":"job more interesting."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2501.021,"endTime":2504.641,"body":"It's, you know, you're not just"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2501.021,"endTime":2504.641,"body":"writing code in an IDE, having"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2504.651,"endTime":2508.371,"body":"experiments, but that's the first"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2504.651,"endTime":2508.371,"body":"thing I would ask people looking"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2508.371,"endTime":2513.951,"body":"at AI, in software and engineering,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2508.371,"endTime":2513.951,"body":"identify a good problem and then ask"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2513.951,"endTime":2516.786,"body":"yourself, do you really need AI there."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2517.126,"endTime":2521.206,"body":"And do you really need large"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2517.126,"endTime":2521.206,"body":"scale language models there?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2521.786,"endTime":2525.476,"body":"Because there are techniques out there"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2521.786,"endTime":2525.476,"body":"where you don't even need AI, right?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2525.526,"endTime":2533.766,"body":"So, simplest example ever, if you want"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2525.526,"endTime":2533.766,"body":"just some way to make it easy for your"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2533.766,"endTime":2536.056,"body":"developers to create microservices."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2536.651,"endTime":2537.811,"body":"There are two ways you can go about it."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2537.871,"endTime":2543.311,"body":"There's the cowboy way, which is"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2537.871,"endTime":2543.311,"body":"to roll out some kind of an LLM CLI"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2543.761,"endTime":2546.361,"body":"tool, which will create this for you."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2546.821,"endTime":2549.711,"body":"And the second way is to"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2546.821,"endTime":2549.711,"body":"create a GitHub template."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2550.409,"endTime":2553.569,"body":"The first one is a one off"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2550.409,"endTime":2553.569,"body":"effort, but it's predictable."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2553.879,"endTime":2557.329,"body":"Every single template Repository created"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2553.879,"endTime":2557.329,"body":"from that will always come out the"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2557.329,"endTime":2561.329,"body":"same, so then it's easy to debug, and"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2557.329,"endTime":2561.329,"body":"you solve one, you solve, there's a"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2561.329,"endTime":2564.319,"body":"problem, you solve it once, you solve"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2561.329,"endTime":2564.319,"body":"it everywhere, that sort of thing."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2565.109,"endTime":2568.449,"body":"I'm seeing people using AI at these sort"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2565.109,"endTime":2568.449,"body":"of things, I think it's actually going"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2568.489,"endTime":2572.185,"body":"to crash and burn, it's going to cause"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2568.489,"endTime":2572.185,"body":"a lot of pain, because, uh, what we're"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2572.185,"endTime":2580.415,"body":"going from is, uh, and, We moved away from"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2572.185,"endTime":2580.415,"body":"doing crazy things to more of a standard"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2580.445,"endTime":2582.295,"body":"DevOps model in software engineering."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2582.965,"endTime":2586.875,"body":"And now we're then going again to doing"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2582.965,"endTime":2586.875,"body":"some crazy things and then it's going"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2586.875,"endTime":2589.075,"body":"to iterate and get us to a better place."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2589.075,"endTime":2592.645,"body":"I think we're in this middle where"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2589.075,"endTime":2592.645,"body":"there's a lot of churn, people figuring"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2592.645,"endTime":2594.735,"body":"out what to do without a good problem."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2594.735,"endTime":2598.255,"body":"You're not going to, you are"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2594.735,"endTime":2598.255,"body":"not going to find AI useful."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2598.385,"endTime":2602.825,"body":"So I would, my only recommendation and"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2598.385,"endTime":2602.825,"body":"my only first thing I ask people is like,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2602.855,"endTime":2604.205,"body":"what problem are you trying to solve?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2604.819,"endTime":2605.989,"body":"Do you need AI?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2605.989,"endTime":2611.699,"body":"And if you do, make sure you understand"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2605.989,"endTime":2611.699,"body":"how AI works and what types of AI"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2611.699,"endTime":2613.139,"body":"need to be used in what circumstances."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2613.139,"endTime":2617.659,"body":"Today we learned about a more traditional"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2613.139,"endTime":2617.659,"body":"version of AI that's beyond LLMs."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2617.829,"endTime":2621.459,"body":"Deterministic and could be really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2617.829,"endTime":2621.459,"body":"useful for engineering leaders trying"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2621.459,"endTime":2625.729,"body":"to standardize and scale up solutions"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2621.459,"endTime":2625.729,"body":"within their organizations, especially"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2625.729,"endTime":2630.019,"body":"if they're already investing and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2625.729,"endTime":2630.019,"body":"putting mindshare into an AI driven"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2630.029,"endTime":2633.388,"body":"world it's definitely a card to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2630.029,"endTime":2633.388,"body":"play and something to keep in mind."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2634.708,"endTime":2638.758,"body":"It's also something that allows you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2634.708,"endTime":2638.758,"body":"to unlock what test driven development"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2638.768,"endTime":2642.058,"body":"was always meant to give us and maybe"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2638.768,"endTime":2642.058,"body":"bring us better to having, you know,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2642.068,"endTime":2643.628,"body":"secure software that runs our world."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2643.628,"endTime":2646.088,"body":"So this has been a really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2643.628,"endTime":2646.088,"body":"insightful one for me."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2646.318,"endTime":2648.078,"body":"Animesh, it's been great"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2646.318,"endTime":2648.078,"body":"having you on the show."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2648.078,"endTime":2651.288,"body":"It's really been fascinating to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2648.078,"endTime":2651.288,"body":"get to learn about your expertise."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2651.638,"endTime":2655.558,"body":"Before we wrap up though, where"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2651.638,"endTime":2655.558,"body":"can our audience go to learn more"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2655.558,"endTime":2657.758,"body":"about you and to follow your work?"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2658.527,"endTime":2660.737,"body":"To learn more"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2658.527,"endTime":2660.737,"body":"about my company, DiffBlue,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2660.797,"endTime":2663.777,"body":"you can go to www.diffblue.com."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2664.297,"endTime":2668.397,"body":"We are based, like I said, in the UK,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2664.297,"endTime":2668.397,"body":"but we have customers all over the world."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2668.857,"endTime":2671.657,"body":"Our sales pitch is, uh,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2668.857,"endTime":2671.657,"body":"pretty straightforward."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2671.757,"endTime":2676.217,"body":"We believe that balancing quality and"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2671.757,"endTime":2676.217,"body":"speed is crucial for sustaining reliable"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2676.287,"endTime":2677.837,"body":"and maintainable software products."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2678.317,"endTime":2682.107,"body":"And the way to do that is to"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2678.317,"endTime":2682.107,"body":"have reliable, maintainable, and"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2682.107,"endTime":2683.617,"body":"predictable, Development tools."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2683.727,"endTime":2687.237,"body":"And DiffBlue is one such tool that"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2683.727,"endTime":2687.237,"body":"we believe you should have in your"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2687.237,"endTime":2692.377,"body":"arsenal to take advantage of the"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2687.237,"endTime":2692.377,"body":"advancements that AI has produced for us."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2692.957,"endTime":2696.947,"body":"You can also follow us on X,"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2692.957,"endTime":2696.947,"body":"our handle is at diffbluehq."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2698.922,"endTime":2699.602,"body":"think I've got that right."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2700.142,"endTime":2702.516,"body":"And, uh, you can connect"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2700.142,"endTime":2702.516,"body":"with us on LinkedIn as well."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2702.776,"endTime":2706.406,"body":"If you'd like to follow me, I would"},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2702.776,"endTime":2706.406,"body":"love to connect with you personally."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2706.466,"endTime":2707.916,"body":"Uh, you'll find me on LinkedIn."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2707.966,"endTime":2709.556,"body":"My name is Animesh Mishra."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2709.986,"endTime":2711.206,"body":"you can search by username."},{"speaker":"Animesh Mishra","startTime":2711.316,"endTime":2712.686,"body":"I'm SirAnimesh on LinkedIn."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2713.492,"endTime":2716.312,"body":"Oh, we'll definitely get"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2713.492,"endTime":2716.312,"body":"your links in the in the show notes."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2716.312,"endTime":2719.202,"body":"Be sure to subscribe if you haven't"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2716.312,"endTime":2719.202,"body":"already and share if you found this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2719.222,"endTime":2720.722,"body":"insightful with your teammates."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2721.022,"endTime":2723.212,"body":"And also be sure to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2721.022,"endTime":2723.212,"body":"check out our Substack."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2723.452,"endTime":2726.452,"body":"Our Substack is a weekly newsletter"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2723.452,"endTime":2726.452,"body":"where we release our podcast"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2726.452,"endTime":2729.132,"body":"as well as a roundup of some of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2726.452,"endTime":2729.132,"body":"the stuff we've discussed today."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2729.392,"endTime":2733.312,"body":"And I'll also be including the notes"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2729.392,"endTime":2733.312,"body":"from today's guests in the Substack"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2733.332,"endTime":2734.842,"body":"newsletter and on the show notes."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2735.442,"endTime":2738.062,"body":"Like Animesh said as well, we'd"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2735.442,"endTime":2738.062,"body":"love to hear from you on socials."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2738.072,"endTime":2740.382,"body":"So please come find us on LinkedIn."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2740.402,"endTime":2741.362,"body":"I'll make sure we're both linked."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2741.442,"endTime":2744.132,"body":"We'd love to hear your thoughts"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2741.442,"endTime":2744.132,"body":"on test driven development."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2744.392,"endTime":2745.942,"body":"Is your organization doing it?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2746.172,"endTime":2747.822,"body":"And what do you think of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2746.172,"endTime":2747.822,"body":"this kind of solution?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2748.142,"endTime":2751.542,"body":"And that's it for this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2748.142,"endTime":2751.542,"body":"week's Dev Interrupted."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2751.742,"endTime":2752.592,"body":"See you next time."}]}