{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":6.987,"endTime":8.727,"body":"Welcome to Dev Interrupted."},{"startTime":8.847,"endTime":10.527,"body":"I'm your host, Andrew Ziegler."},{"startTime":11.026,"endTime":12.631,"body":"And I'm your host Ben Lloyd Pearson."},{"startTime":13.407,"endTime":16.827,"body":"In today's news, we're talking"},{"startTime":13.407,"endTime":16.827,"body":"about the latest ups and"},{"startTime":16.827,"endTime":19.227,"body":"downs in the tech job market."},{"startTime":19.647,"endTime":25.227,"body":"How the persistent effects of layoff"},{"startTime":19.647,"endTime":25.227,"body":"anxiety impact our work and how right"},{"startTime":25.227,"endTime":29.217,"body":"now, the only thing protecting all of"},{"startTime":25.227,"endTime":29.217,"body":"our free and open source software's,"},{"startTime":29.217,"endTime":34.347,"body":"websites, and infrastructure from"},{"startTime":29.217,"endTime":34.347,"body":"constant AI scraper DDoS attacks is a"},{"startTime":34.347,"endTime":36.537,"body":"proof of work proxy with an anime logo."},{"startTime":37.287,"endTime":39.172,"body":"So Ben, what do you want"},{"startTime":37.287,"endTime":39.172,"body":"to talk about first?"},{"startTime":39.586,"endTime":40.456,"body":"An anime logo."},{"startTime":40.486,"endTime":43.096,"body":"Well, that, that caught my attention,"},{"startTime":40.486,"endTime":43.096,"body":"but I actually wanna talk about"},{"startTime":43.096,"endTime":47.116,"body":"that last story first, Simply"},{"startTime":43.096,"endTime":47.116,"body":"because you and I both have worked"},{"startTime":47.116,"endTime":49.126,"body":"on open source in the past, so it's"},{"startTime":49.147,"endTime":49.437,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":49.737,"endTime":52.276,"body":"that, that holds true to us in particular."},{"startTime":52.276,"endTime":53.776,"body":"So what, what do we have there?"},{"startTime":54.274,"endTime":54.844,"body":"you hit it."},{"startTime":54.844,"endTime":57.874,"body":"Spot on There is that open source is"},{"startTime":54.844,"endTime":57.874,"body":"really important to you and I, and"},{"startTime":58.174,"endTime":60.394,"body":"it's the backbone of our world really."},{"startTime":60.604,"endTime":65.674,"body":"And this article from Niccolò Venerandi,"},{"startTime":60.604,"endTime":65.674,"body":"it shows how AI scrapers are aggressively"},{"startTime":65.674,"endTime":71.884,"body":"targeting free and open source projects"},{"startTime":65.674,"endTime":71.884,"body":"like SourceHut, KDE, gnome, fedora,"},{"startTime":71.884,"endTime":76.474,"body":"like big names that are the foundational"},{"startTime":71.884,"endTime":76.474,"body":"parts of the infrastructure that powers"},{"startTime":76.474,"endTime":81.217,"body":"our modern world and these types of,"},{"startTime":76.474,"endTime":81.217,"body":"attacks or DDoS attacks coming from"},{"startTime":81.421,"endTime":85.897,"body":"AI scrapers, LLM scrapers, collecting"},{"startTime":81.421,"endTime":85.897,"body":"information off their dock pages,"},{"startTime":86.107,"endTime":90.247,"body":"sometimes going through their git repos,"},{"startTime":86.107,"endTime":90.247,"body":"looking at every single possible file."},{"startTime":90.457,"endTime":95.197,"body":"Git blame, git diff that you could look"},{"startTime":90.457,"endTime":95.197,"body":"at in an open source project repository,"},{"startTime":95.377,"endTime":97.477,"body":"and sometimes doing it multiple times."},{"startTime":97.872,"endTime":101.352,"body":"This kind of effect is really kind"},{"startTime":97.872,"endTime":101.352,"body":"of causing free and open source"},{"startTime":101.352,"endTime":106.405,"body":"software development to slow down,"},{"startTime":101.352,"endTime":106.405,"body":"crawl, be very unresponsive for folks."},{"startTime":106.675,"endTime":109.855,"body":"Uh, and it's actually kind of wild"},{"startTime":106.675,"endTime":109.855,"body":"to see how quickly it has impacted"},{"startTime":109.855,"endTime":113.905,"body":"the abilities for developers to,"},{"startTime":109.855,"endTime":113.905,"body":"to actually work on those projects."},{"startTime":114.205,"endTime":114.475,"body":"you know,"},{"startTime":114.475,"endTime":118.285,"body":"and we're seeing that there's a lot of AI"},{"startTime":114.475,"endTime":118.285,"body":"companies that, that are, they're ignoring"},{"startTime":118.285,"endTime":121.765,"body":"these like conventional web standards"},{"startTime":118.285,"endTime":121.765,"body":"that I, I mean, when you really think"},{"startTime":121.765,"endTime":122.725,"body":"about it, they're not even standards."},{"startTime":122.725,"endTime":125.875,"body":"It's more like a gentleman's agreement"},{"startTime":122.725,"endTime":125.875,"body":"when you have like a robot's text file."},{"startTime":126.205,"endTime":130.345,"body":"You know, it's, it's like generally"},{"startTime":126.205,"endTime":130.345,"body":"speaking, we've all been honest enough on"},{"startTime":130.345,"endTime":135.415,"body":"the internet to, if you have a scraper,"},{"startTime":130.345,"endTime":135.415,"body":"to respect the, the contents of that."},{"startTime":135.415,"endTime":138.955,"body":"But now we have a new type of scraper"},{"startTime":135.415,"endTime":138.955,"body":"that's powered by AI and they're just"},{"startTime":138.955,"endTime":144.385,"body":"ignoring those things and, and doing their"},{"startTime":138.955,"endTime":144.385,"body":"best to actually actively evade detection."},{"startTime":144.863,"endTime":147.623,"body":"you know, all these models, like they"},{"startTime":144.863,"endTime":147.623,"body":"need tons of data for training and"},{"startTime":147.623,"endTime":149.483,"body":"for all the context that they pull in."},{"startTime":149.873,"endTime":152.843,"body":"But they really don't have"},{"startTime":149.873,"endTime":152.843,"body":"like any sort of incentive to"},{"startTime":152.843,"endTime":154.343,"body":"do it in a responsible way."},{"startTime":154.593,"endTime":157.473,"body":"other than like keeping their data"},{"startTime":154.593,"endTime":157.473,"body":"source from like crashing and, and"},{"startTime":157.473,"endTime":160.823,"body":"dying, and it's like the thing that"},{"startTime":157.473,"endTime":160.823,"body":"really bugs me about this is that,"},{"startTime":161.123,"endTime":165.113,"body":"you know, open source is, is built"},{"startTime":161.123,"endTime":165.113,"body":"on this concept of transparency and"},{"startTime":165.113,"endTime":166.853,"body":"being and doing things in the open."},{"startTime":167.213,"endTime":170.393,"body":"And it's like that very thing"},{"startTime":167.213,"endTime":170.393,"body":"that makes open source so awesome"},{"startTime":170.393,"endTime":174.053,"body":"is what is now putting them in"},{"startTime":170.393,"endTime":174.053,"body":"the crosshairs of these AI bots."},{"startTime":175.069,"endTime":176.749,"body":"Yeah, you couldn't have put it better."},{"startTime":176.749,"endTime":181.099,"body":"And the thing that also makes open"},{"startTime":176.749,"endTime":181.099,"body":"source awesome is the same thing that's"},{"startTime":181.129,"endTime":183.649,"body":"ultimately going to protect it as well."},{"startTime":183.889,"endTime":186.829,"body":"Because from all of this, there's"},{"startTime":183.889,"endTime":186.829,"body":"been a tool that's emerged that's"},{"startTime":186.829,"endTime":191.852,"body":"helped some of these, infrastructures,"},{"startTime":186.829,"endTime":191.852,"body":"these websites protect their files"},{"startTime":191.852,"endTime":193.472,"body":"from these kinds of DDoS attacks."},{"startTime":193.502,"endTime":197.862,"body":"Using a new proof of work type of"},{"startTime":193.502,"endTime":197.862,"body":"captcha, it catches the bots, it"},{"startTime":197.862,"endTime":201.522,"body":"prevents them from actually causing all"},{"startTime":197.862,"endTime":201.522,"body":"of the inefficiencies on their systems."},{"startTime":201.762,"endTime":204.162,"body":"And this tool, it's called Anubis."},{"startTime":204.162,"endTime":208.602,"body":"It's kind of cool because it does the"},{"startTime":204.162,"endTime":208.602,"body":"same thing as the Egyptian God from"},{"startTime":208.602,"endTime":210.312,"body":"the mythology that it's named after."},{"startTime":210.762,"endTime":216.132,"body":"It weighs the soul of the incoming"},{"startTime":210.762,"endTime":216.132,"body":"HTTP requests, using proof"},{"startTime":216.132,"endTime":218.202,"body":"of work to stop AI crawlers."},{"startTime":218.262,"endTime":221.352,"body":"And that's the same as"},{"startTime":218.262,"endTime":221.352,"body":"how in Egyptian mythology."},{"startTime":221.607,"endTime":225.297,"body":"Anubis weighs the heart of the"},{"startTime":221.607,"endTime":225.297,"body":"non-living to decide their fate."},{"startTime":225.597,"endTime":233.007,"body":"So Nono or Llama or Penguin Mascot"},{"startTime":225.597,"endTime":233.007,"body":"here and Anubis, it has an anime logo."},{"startTime":233.217,"endTime":236.067,"body":"That's the funniest part about it,"},{"startTime":233.217,"endTime":236.067,"body":"is that right now anywhere you can"},{"startTime":236.067,"endTime":240.087,"body":"go to a lot of these, uh, you know,"},{"startTime":236.067,"endTime":240.087,"body":"FOSS websites and what pops up is"},{"startTime":240.087,"endTime":243.267,"body":"this anime logo that checks that"},{"startTime":240.087,"endTime":243.267,"body":"you're human before you can go in."},{"startTime":243.928,"endTime":247.335,"body":"strangely enough, this reminds"},{"startTime":243.928,"endTime":247.335,"body":"me of, eternal September."},{"startTime":247.365,"endTime":249.645,"body":"Like, I'm getting that"},{"startTime":247.365,"endTime":249.645,"body":"vibe from this situation."},{"startTime":249.645,"endTime":254.715,"body":"So, uh, for anyone that that may not"},{"startTime":249.645,"endTime":254.715,"body":"know, uh, you know, that's back in the,"},{"startTime":254.738,"endTime":259.131,"body":"the mid nineties, uh, in the Usenet"},{"startTime":254.738,"endTime":259.131,"body":"community, they got used to having like,"},{"startTime":259.131,"endTime":262.221,"body":"every September, all of the college"},{"startTime":259.131,"endTime":262.221,"body":"students that would get access to"},{"startTime":262.221,"endTime":265.671,"body":"Usenet for the first time in their life"},{"startTime":262.221,"endTime":265.671,"body":"would flood the, the airwaves trying"},{"startTime":265.671,"endTime":268.341,"body":"to learn how to actually use Usenet."},{"startTime":268.431,"endTime":272.541,"body":"and then you had this moment where"},{"startTime":268.431,"endTime":272.541,"body":"AOL gave everyone a Usenet connection"},{"startTime":272.541,"endTime":273.741,"body":"when they signed up for their service."},{"startTime":273.741,"endTime":277.191,"body":"So they called it the Eternal September"},{"startTime":273.741,"endTime":277.191,"body":"because you, you had this endless stream"},{"startTime":277.191,"endTime":281.151,"body":"of people trying to learn something new"},{"startTime":277.191,"endTime":281.151,"body":"for the first time from this community."},{"startTime":281.421,"endTime":283.671,"body":"And that's kind of what we're"},{"startTime":281.421,"endTime":283.671,"body":"seeing here with these bots, right?"},{"startTime":283.671,"endTime":285.051,"body":"Like it's, instead of the, the."},{"startTime":285.443,"endTime":286.613,"body":"A OL masses."},{"startTime":286.613,"endTime":290.183,"body":"It's the AI masses that are coming"},{"startTime":286.613,"endTime":290.183,"body":"descending on these websites and"},{"startTime":290.183,"endTime":293.543,"body":"constantly pulling the same data"},{"startTime":290.183,"endTime":293.543,"body":"sets like over and over again."},{"startTime":294.143,"endTime":296.723,"body":"But I mean, it really is like,"},{"startTime":294.143,"endTime":296.723,"body":"this is not gonna be sustainable."},{"startTime":296.723,"endTime":299.543,"body":"Like we, we, we really do need"},{"startTime":296.723,"endTime":299.543,"body":"to start thinking about how."},{"startTime":299.93,"endTime":302.84,"body":"we responsibly give AI access to data."},{"startTime":302.87,"endTime":306.02,"body":"Like, it, it doesn't make sense"},{"startTime":302.87,"endTime":306.02,"body":"to constantly scrape a web"},{"startTime":306.02,"endTime":307.369,"body":"source over and over again."},{"startTime":307.37,"endTime":310.43,"body":"Like, if you need that data,"},{"startTime":307.37,"endTime":310.43,"body":"you probably need to like"},{"startTime":310.46,"endTime":312.29,"body":"store it yourself, for example."},{"startTime":312.72,"endTime":315.33,"body":"I mean, this kind of urgent, like"},{"startTime":312.72,"endTime":315.33,"body":"this Anubis kind of feels like"},{"startTime":315.33,"endTime":317.37,"body":"it's a, it's a nuclear reaction."},{"startTime":317.37,"endTime":322.92,"body":"It's, it's like instead of, dealing with"},{"startTime":317.37,"endTime":322.92,"body":"it, we're just like doing what we can"},{"startTime":322.92,"endTime":324.78,"body":"to shut it down and then try to like."},{"startTime":325.14,"endTime":326.28,"body":"Pair back from there."},{"startTime":326.847,"endTime":327.327,"body":"exactly."},{"startTime":327.327,"endTime":330.567,"body":"That's kind of the core of their"},{"startTime":327.327,"endTime":330.567,"body":"problem is that all of the approaches"},{"startTime":330.567,"endTime":335.487,"body":"they can take also harm actual"},{"startTime":330.567,"endTime":335.487,"body":"users, maintainers, developers from"},{"startTime":335.487,"endTime":339.507,"body":"accessing and using the tools, and"},{"startTime":335.487,"endTime":339.507,"body":"so there's not an easy way to win."},{"startTime":340.12,"endTime":340.96,"body":"So let's move on."},{"startTime":340.96,"endTime":344.92,"body":"I wanna talk about these programmer"},{"startTime":340.96,"endTime":344.92,"body":"jobs vanishing, because this has been"},{"startTime":344.92,"endTime":348.7,"body":"a little controversial when I've been"},{"startTime":344.92,"endTime":348.7,"body":"talking about this out on social."},{"startTime":348.7,"endTime":350.975,"body":"So what can you tell us"},{"startTime":348.7,"endTime":350.975,"body":"about that story, Andrew?"},{"startTime":351.696,"endTime":351.936,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":351.936,"endTime":355.582,"body":"So this story talked about how,"},{"startTime":351.936,"endTime":355.582,"body":"more than a quarter of, uh, computer"},{"startTime":355.582,"endTime":357.862,"body":"programming jobs are simply vanishing."},{"startTime":358.192,"endTime":361.912,"body":"You know, programming is"},{"startTime":358.192,"endTime":361.912,"body":"dying, is how it framed it, and"},{"startTime":361.912,"endTime":363.802,"body":"software development is booming."},{"startTime":363.892,"endTime":367.372,"body":"So this is a very kind of, divisive and"},{"startTime":363.892,"endTime":367.372,"body":"polarizing, I think even for some people."},{"startTime":367.522,"endTime":371.422,"body":"But really what it calls attention to"},{"startTime":367.522,"endTime":371.422,"body":"for me is how people, uh, maybe attach"},{"startTime":371.509,"endTime":376.432,"body":"meaning, uh, to those two words and"},{"startTime":371.509,"endTime":376.432,"body":"what those people do at their jobs."},{"startTime":376.682,"endTime":381.267,"body":"it talks about how, you know, US"},{"startTime":376.682,"endTime":381.267,"body":"programming jobs, their down 27.5%"},{"startTime":381.577,"endTime":385.227,"body":"over the last two years, uh, which"},{"startTime":381.577,"endTime":385.227,"body":"is the lowest since the 1980s."},{"startTime":385.687,"endTime":389.647,"body":"which seems so contradictory to everything"},{"startTime":385.687,"endTime":389.647,"body":"that we see and hear constantly with"},{"startTime":389.647,"endTime":391.327,"body":"the developments of new technology."},{"startTime":391.327,"endTime":391.747,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":392.111,"endTime":396.341,"body":"we're playing, uh, the semantics here a"},{"startTime":392.111,"endTime":396.341,"body":"little bit because this is, you know, the"},{"startTime":396.341,"endTime":401.291,"body":"US federal government's definition of a"},{"startTime":396.341,"endTime":401.291,"body":"programmer versus a software developer"},{"startTime":401.291,"endTime":404.561,"body":"because, Adam, our producer, told me,"},{"startTime":401.291,"endTime":404.561,"body":"I have to bring up all the LinkedIn"},{"startTime":404.561,"endTime":408.581,"body":"takes I've gotten from this about how"},{"startTime":404.561,"endTime":408.581,"body":"well I'm a programmer, but I consider"},{"startTime":408.581,"endTime":411.221,"body":"myself, some people would call me a"},{"startTime":408.581,"endTime":411.221,"body":"software developer, and it's like, yeah,"},{"startTime":411.221,"endTime":413.291,"body":"I understand that these are titles."},{"startTime":413.291,"endTime":416.091,"body":"Like they have different meanings"},{"startTime":413.291,"endTime":416.091,"body":"depending on who you are."},{"startTime":416.841,"endTime":421.491,"body":"But the US government is specifically"},{"startTime":416.841,"endTime":421.491,"body":"looking at people whose job is to"},{"startTime":421.551,"endTime":425.961,"body":"take existing specifications and"},{"startTime":421.551,"endTime":425.961,"body":"implement some sort of like low"},{"startTime":425.961,"endTime":428.091,"body":"level routine for that specification."},{"startTime":428.091,"endTime":431.211,"body":"So they don't make a lot of like"},{"startTime":428.091,"endTime":431.211,"body":"strategic decisions themselves."},{"startTime":431.211,"endTime":432.021,"body":"They're simply like."},{"startTime":432.366,"endTime":435.066,"body":"It's almost like a translator, you"},{"startTime":432.366,"endTime":435.066,"body":"know, if you have somebody that just"},{"startTime":435.066,"endTime":439.136,"body":"takes it from a, a text from one"},{"startTime":435.066,"endTime":439.136,"body":"language to another, this really to"},{"startTime":439.136,"endTime":444.236,"body":"me sounds like the type of work that"},{"startTime":439.136,"endTime":444.236,"body":"is perfectly ripe for AI to take over."},{"startTime":444.236,"endTime":449.216,"body":"So it doesn't really surprise me that this"},{"startTime":444.236,"endTime":449.216,"body":"is happening, and I don't really know a"},{"startTime":449.216,"endTime":453.476,"body":"lot of people today that I would consider"},{"startTime":449.216,"endTime":453.476,"body":"a programmer according to this definition."},{"startTime":453.816,"endTime":456.186,"body":"I certainly have worked with"},{"startTime":453.816,"endTime":456.186,"body":"those people in the past."},{"startTime":456.236,"endTime":459.896,"body":"I think really it's what, what"},{"startTime":456.236,"endTime":459.896,"body":"we're seeing is that AI is not"},{"startTime":459.896,"endTime":461.336,"body":"really killing a profession."},{"startTime":461.336,"endTime":464.006,"body":"Like the profession has evolved"},{"startTime":461.336,"endTime":464.006,"body":"from programming to software"},{"startTime":464.006,"endTime":465.296,"body":"development for the most part."},{"startTime":465.726,"endTime":468.456,"body":"but what's really happening is"},{"startTime":465.726,"endTime":468.456,"body":"it's, we're seeing the erosion"},{"startTime":468.516,"endTime":471.006,"body":"of the moat that coding skills."},{"startTime":471.196,"endTime":471.766,"body":"Created."},{"startTime":471.766,"endTime":476.266,"body":"So being able to just write code"},{"startTime":471.766,"endTime":476.266,"body":"isn't enough anymore because"},{"startTime":476.266,"endTime":478.906,"body":"AI is able to also write code."},{"startTime":478.906,"endTime":482.939,"body":"It's more about understanding, making"},{"startTime":478.906,"endTime":482.939,"body":"higher order decisions, relating"},{"startTime":482.939,"endTime":485.282,"body":"work to like the end user impact."},{"startTime":485.282,"endTime":486.452,"body":"It's, it's things like that."},{"startTime":487.608,"endTime":488.298,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":488.358,"endTime":491.148,"body":"And if you've been li listening to"},{"startTime":488.358,"endTime":491.148,"body":"Dev Interrupted, you know that Ben and"},{"startTime":491.148,"endTime":495.378,"body":"I talk about this a lot on the show"},{"startTime":491.148,"endTime":495.378,"body":"about the new skills that teams need to"},{"startTime":495.378,"endTime":499.668,"body":"develop, that individuals have to build"},{"startTime":495.378,"endTime":499.668,"body":"in order to be the software developer"},{"startTime":499.668,"endTime":504.978,"body":"or programmer or coder or designer"},{"startTime":499.668,"endTime":504.978,"body":"of whatever you think in the future."},{"startTime":505.013,"endTime":505.523,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":505.523,"endTime":508.183,"body":"It's like the, those protections"},{"startTime":505.523,"endTime":508.183,"body":"like that, you put it"},{"startTime":508.183,"endTime":509.893,"body":"great in as like a, a moat."},{"startTime":510.013,"endTime":513.133,"body":"That's kind of what coding skills"},{"startTime":510.013,"endTime":513.133,"body":"gave a lot of people as a moat"},{"startTime":513.373,"endTime":517.183,"body":"that's going away and just how"},{"startTime":513.373,"endTime":517.183,"body":"that's impacting large companies."},{"startTime":517.195,"endTime":520.637,"body":"It's impacting individuals and"},{"startTime":517.195,"endTime":520.637,"body":"what they do at their work too."},{"startTime":520.917,"endTime":524.067,"body":"But that opens up so many more."},{"startTime":524.067,"endTime":528.507,"body":"Also, opportunities to build new skills"},{"startTime":524.067,"endTime":528.507,"body":"and to move your expertise into new"},{"startTime":528.507,"endTime":532.557,"body":"areas and to use the augmentation"},{"startTime":528.507,"endTime":532.557,"body":"of things that you used to have to"},{"startTime":532.557,"endTime":536.607,"body":"spend a lot of time doing to then"},{"startTime":532.557,"endTime":536.607,"body":"spend more time on the impactful work."},{"startTime":536.757,"endTime":539.667,"body":"And I think that's the real evolution"},{"startTime":536.757,"endTime":539.667,"body":"that we're all living through."},{"startTime":540.157,"endTime":540.397,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":540.402,"endTime":543.397,"body":"And, and you know, and I think"},{"startTime":540.402,"endTime":543.397,"body":"things don't look super great"},{"startTime":543.397,"endTime":546.982,"body":"for software developers right"},{"startTime":543.397,"endTime":546.982,"body":"now, just as a, job, industry."},{"startTime":547.757,"endTime":550.457,"body":"our final story, we'll get into some"},{"startTime":547.757,"endTime":550.457,"body":"of the difficulties with that too."},{"startTime":551.072,"endTime":554.102,"body":"Uh, but the chart that we're looking"},{"startTime":551.072,"endTime":554.102,"body":"at in this article does show like"},{"startTime":554.102,"endTime":556.172,"body":"a very steep, long-term growth."},{"startTime":556.172,"endTime":559.952,"body":"So there's a bit of a pullback"},{"startTime":556.172,"endTime":559.952,"body":"happening right now, but the"},{"startTime":559.952,"endTime":563.342,"body":"long-term trend has been very"},{"startTime":559.952,"endTime":563.342,"body":"positive for the industry as a whole."},{"startTime":563.342,"endTime":566.642,"body":"So, I mean, really what it comes"},{"startTime":563.342,"endTime":566.642,"body":"down to is like routine coding."},{"startTime":566.702,"endTime":567.782,"body":"It's being automated."},{"startTime":567.842,"endTime":571.862,"body":"Like that's just the reality that we"},{"startTime":567.842,"endTime":571.862,"body":"live in, and it's the, the developers"},{"startTime":571.862,"endTime":576.332,"body":"who have that like system design"},{"startTime":571.862,"endTime":576.332,"body":"thinking, the ability to integrate with"},{"startTime":576.362,"endTime":580.532,"body":"AI capabilities, those, those people are"},{"startTime":576.362,"endTime":580.532,"body":"still gonna be thriving in the market."},{"startTime":580.532,"endTime":580.562,"body":"I."},{"startTime":580.971,"endTime":581.841,"body":"What you just said."},{"startTime":581.841,"endTime":586.941,"body":"Ben reminded me so much of what our recent"},{"startTime":581.841,"endTime":586.941,"body":"guest, Dr. Ashoori said on the show."},{"startTime":586.941,"endTime":590.331,"body":"She talked about how the roles that"},{"startTime":586.941,"endTime":590.331,"body":"will have growth in the future,"},{"startTime":590.331,"endTime":594.171,"body":"the roles that have opportunities"},{"startTime":590.331,"endTime":594.171,"body":"are the decision managers,"},{"startTime":594.221,"endTime":599.421,"body":"So the action doers, are evolving"},{"startTime":594.221,"endTime":599.421,"body":"into the decision managers, and"},{"startTime":599.421,"endTime":601.431,"body":"that's the same thing that we're"},{"startTime":599.421,"endTime":601.431,"body":"seeing here from this article."},{"startTime":602.17,"endTime":602.5,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":602.53,"endTime":602.71,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":602.71,"endTime":604.6,"body":"Thanks for giving me a"},{"startTime":602.71,"endTime":604.6,"body":"chance to say the same."},{"startTime":604.66,"endTime":607.87,"body":"The thing I've been saying over and"},{"startTime":604.66,"endTime":607.87,"body":"over again that everyone's a manager."},{"startTime":608.05,"endTime":609.4,"body":"Now you need to learn how to manage it."},{"startTime":609.4,"endTime":610.03,"body":"Your ai."},{"startTime":610.09,"endTime":610.45,"body":"So,"},{"startTime":610.761,"endTime":611.541,"body":"Yeah, precisely."},{"startTime":611.541,"endTime":613.071,"body":"And, and you know, if you've"},{"startTime":611.541,"endTime":613.071,"body":"listened to this and you have"},{"startTime":613.071,"endTime":615.801,"body":"some thoughts too, definitely"},{"startTime":613.071,"endTime":615.801,"body":"please come find us on LinkedIn."},{"startTime":615.801,"endTime":618.771,"body":"We're talking about this stuff constantly"},{"startTime":615.801,"endTime":618.771,"body":"and not just here on the podcast, and"},{"startTime":618.771,"endTime":620.151,"body":"we'd love to hear what you think as well."},{"startTime":620.545,"endTime":621.415,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":621.685,"endTime":624.655,"body":"So let's get into our last"},{"startTime":621.685,"endTime":624.655,"body":"story about layoff anxiety."},{"startTime":625.193,"endTime":630.053,"body":"so this article addresses how"},{"startTime":625.193,"endTime":630.053,"body":"layoff anxiety is impacting employee"},{"startTime":630.053,"endTime":634.493,"body":"confidence and pushing it to a rock"},{"startTime":630.053,"endTime":634.493,"body":"bottom In nearly a decade, talk"},{"startTime":634.493,"endTime":639.353,"body":"about how one in three Americans have"},{"startTime":634.493,"endTime":639.353,"body":"layoff anxiety, and the one in three"},{"startTime":639.353,"endTime":642.049,"body":"Americans that experience that, Of them."},{"startTime":642.109,"endTime":646.459,"body":"Remote workers were more likely"},{"startTime":642.109,"endTime":646.459,"body":"twice as likely actually to feel"},{"startTime":646.459,"endTime":649.129,"body":"that anxiety compared to the"},{"startTime":646.459,"endTime":649.129,"body":"people that were in the office."},{"startTime":649.459,"endTime":654.709,"body":"And amongst everybody surveyed Gen Z"},{"startTime":649.459,"endTime":654.709,"body":"were the ones that were most anxious"},{"startTime":654.769,"endTime":657.469,"body":"and had the most anxiety about layoffs."},{"startTime":657.739,"endTime":662.939,"body":"And so this really kind of indicates,"},{"startTime":657.739,"endTime":662.939,"body":"really where the anxiety is in the market"},{"startTime":663.149,"endTime":665.489,"body":"and why they feel those insecurities."},{"startTime":665.699,"endTime":665.939,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":665.939,"endTime":667.559,"body":"Ben, what did you think"},{"startTime":665.939,"endTime":667.559,"body":"about this article?"},{"startTime":667.859,"endTime":673.149,"body":"as a remote worker, uh, I did, previously"},{"startTime":667.859,"endTime":673.149,"body":"make a decision to live in a city where I"},{"startTime":673.149,"endTime":677.649,"body":"knew if remote work dried up, that I would"},{"startTime":673.149,"endTime":677.649,"body":"still be able to get local opportunities."},{"startTime":678.489,"endTime":680.889,"body":"I've since been fortunate enough"},{"startTime":678.489,"endTime":680.889,"body":"that I, I, I feel comfortable"},{"startTime":680.889,"endTime":683.979,"body":"enough with remote work that I don't"},{"startTime":680.889,"endTime":683.979,"body":"think that's the reality anymore."},{"startTime":684.399,"endTime":686.979,"body":"But you know, these,"},{"startTime":684.399,"endTime":686.979,"body":"like January, February."},{"startTime":687.294,"endTime":692.214,"body":"Layoff waves in the tech sector have sort"},{"startTime":687.294,"endTime":692.214,"body":"of become like a tradition at this point."},{"startTime":692.311,"endTime":695.701,"body":"Granted this article is about"},{"startTime":692.311,"endTime":695.701,"body":"the broader industry, right?"},{"startTime":695.701,"endTime":697.801,"body":"But I think there are still"},{"startTime":695.701,"endTime":697.801,"body":"some parallels we can, we can"},{"startTime":697.801,"endTime":699.571,"body":"bring into software development."},{"startTime":699.991,"endTime":702.451,"body":"'cause, you know, based on what"},{"startTime":699.991,"endTime":702.451,"body":"I'm hearing in, in my network,"},{"startTime":702.761,"endTime":705.941,"body":"from engineering teams is that,"},{"startTime":702.761,"endTime":705.941,"body":"you know, this, this year's wave"},{"startTime":705.941,"endTime":710.261,"body":"did feel like it hit a little bit"},{"startTime":705.941,"endTime":710.261,"body":"harder than it has in recent years."},{"startTime":710.973,"endTime":714.423,"body":"like practically every engineering"},{"startTime":710.973,"endTime":714.423,"body":"leader that I've spoken to has"},{"startTime":714.423,"endTime":716.433,"body":"been focused on efficiency."},{"startTime":716.463,"endTime":718.653,"body":"You know, they're, they're not"},{"startTime":716.463,"endTime":718.653,"body":"really thinking about growth."},{"startTime":719.073,"endTime":722.703,"body":"They're more thinking about cost"},{"startTime":719.073,"endTime":722.703,"body":"cutting, how to do more with the"},{"startTime":722.703,"endTime":725.643,"body":"same or less, or the same with less."},{"startTime":726.033,"endTime":728.613,"body":"today we're in sort of this"},{"startTime":726.033,"endTime":728.613,"body":"period of like relative."},{"startTime":729.513,"endTime":732.423,"body":"Stab stability in terms of"},{"startTime":729.513,"endTime":732.423,"body":"like the economy when you"},{"startTime":732.423,"endTime":733.863,"body":"look at like interest rates."},{"startTime":734.103,"endTime":735.543,"body":"I'm not gonna talk about the stock market."},{"startTime":735.543,"endTime":738.633,"body":"That's a, that's a different thing, but,"},{"startTime":735.543,"endTime":738.633,"body":"you know, interest rates have been fairly"},{"startTime":738.633,"endTime":743.193,"body":"stable for a while, but we're still in"},{"startTime":738.633,"endTime":743.193,"body":"this, like, wake of the zero interest"},{"startTime":743.193,"endTime":746.236,"body":"rate free venture capital money, effects."},{"startTime":746.236,"endTime":750.316,"body":"So I, I feel like there's still a ways"},{"startTime":746.236,"endTime":750.316,"body":"to go, like things aren't really getting"},{"startTime":750.436,"endTime":754.306,"body":"worse in the tech sector, but we, we"},{"startTime":750.436,"endTime":754.306,"body":"still haven't fully recovered from it."},{"startTime":754.867,"endTime":759.247,"body":"Another thing that was interesting to"},{"startTime":754.867,"endTime":759.247,"body":"me that the survey pointed out was how,"},{"startTime":759.477,"endTime":763.017,"body":"the workers that were surveyed discussed"},{"startTime":759.477,"endTime":763.017,"body":"how they would change or evolve their"},{"startTime":763.017,"endTime":768.327,"body":"role in order to stay at their job or"},{"startTime":763.017,"endTime":768.327,"body":"to find more security within their job."},{"startTime":768.327,"endTime":772.082,"body":"I. in fact, 46% of people that were asked,"},{"startTime":768.327,"endTime":772.082,"body":"you know, they were willing to take on"},{"startTime":772.112,"endTime":778.122,"body":"more responsibilities, 69% of them even"},{"startTime":772.112,"endTime":778.122,"body":"said they would prioritize that security"},{"startTime":778.122,"endTime":780.282,"body":"over their long-term career growth."},{"startTime":780.582,"endTime":783.222,"body":"So definitely a lot of people"},{"startTime":780.582,"endTime":783.222,"body":"feeling the, the stressors in the"},{"startTime":783.449,"endTime":786.822,"body":"economy in terms of their employment,"},{"startTime":783.449,"endTime":786.822,"body":"especially with recent layoff waves,"},{"startTime":786.822,"endTime":789.312,"body":"as you've said, hitting every year."},{"startTime":789.592,"endTime":792.452,"body":"but really my takeaway from this"},{"startTime":789.592,"endTime":792.452,"body":"article too, was going back to"},{"startTime":792.452,"endTime":793.832,"body":"what we talked about a moment ago."},{"startTime":793.847,"endTime":795.347,"body":"With evolving your skills."},{"startTime":795.647,"endTime":800.057,"body":"'cause I think that's one strong way to,"},{"startTime":795.647,"endTime":800.057,"body":"to impact your layoff anxiety, because"},{"startTime":800.057,"endTime":804.617,"body":"of course, ultimately layoffs when they"},{"startTime":800.057,"endTime":804.617,"body":"happen, they're outside of your control."},{"startTime":804.887,"endTime":808.727,"body":"But what's in your control is your ability"},{"startTime":804.887,"endTime":808.727,"body":"to build skills to be indispensable"},{"startTime":808.817,"endTime":810.407,"body":"no matter where you end up going."},{"startTime":810.407,"endTime":810.437,"body":"I."},{"startTime":811.021,"endTime":814.801,"body":"Yeah, especially, you know, now that we're"},{"startTime":811.021,"endTime":814.801,"body":"in the age of ai, like it's never been"},{"startTime":814.801,"endTime":817.381,"body":"easier to build new skills like that."},{"startTime":817.441,"endTime":820.681,"body":"If you're in a position where you're,"},{"startTime":817.441,"endTime":820.681,"body":"you know, maybe struggling to find"},{"startTime":820.681,"endTime":823.891,"body":"work or you don't have the position"},{"startTime":820.681,"endTime":823.891,"body":"that you want currently, like I."},{"startTime":824.211,"endTime":827.591,"body":"That's my recommendation is you"},{"startTime":824.211,"endTime":827.591,"body":"have more tools available to you"},{"startTime":827.591,"endTime":831.551,"body":"today than we've ever had in the"},{"startTime":827.591,"endTime":831.551,"body":"history of humanity for that matter."},{"startTime":831.611,"endTime":833.951,"body":"Uh, so, you know, take advantage of them."},{"startTime":834.337,"endTime":835.957,"body":"So Andrew, tell me about"},{"startTime":834.337,"endTime":835.957,"body":"our guests this week."},{"startTime":836.568,"endTime":837.138,"body":"Oh yes."},{"startTime":837.138,"endTime":838.968,"body":"I'm so excited for our guest, Ben."},{"startTime":839.238,"endTime":843.258,"body":"So after the break, we're bringing"},{"startTime":839.238,"endTime":843.258,"body":"Thanos Diacakis onto the pod."},{"startTime":843.618,"endTime":849.078,"body":"Thanos is a technology leader of"},{"startTime":843.618,"endTime":849.078,"body":"fractional CTO and a total wizard to me."},{"startTime":849.138,"endTime":851.178,"body":"He had over 25 years of experience."},{"startTime":851.178,"endTime":855.403,"body":"I. Optimizing software engineering"},{"startTime":851.178,"endTime":855.403,"body":"teams at Uber, he led the technical"},{"startTime":855.403,"endTime":857.863,"body":"integration of the jump acquisition."},{"startTime":857.863,"endTime":861.967,"body":"So they scaled 45,000 vehicles"},{"startTime":857.863,"endTime":861.967,"body":"to 2 million monthly trips"},{"startTime":862.267,"endTime":862.597,"body":"Wow."},{"startTime":862.933,"endTime":864.823,"body":"150 million in revenue."},{"startTime":865.183,"endTime":868.873,"body":"But my biggest takeaway is, could"},{"startTime":865.183,"endTime":868.873,"body":"you imagine being at Uber as"},{"startTime":868.873,"endTime":870.748,"body":"the rideshare category exploded?"},{"startTime":870.748,"endTime":874.723,"body":"Sounds awfully familiar to some"},{"startTime":870.748,"endTime":874.723,"body":"of the times that we're in now."},{"startTime":874.993,"endTime":878.683,"body":"So after the break, we're diving"},{"startTime":874.993,"endTime":878.683,"body":"into the strategies and the mental"},{"startTime":878.683,"endTime":884.203,"body":"models that help Thanos team go from"},{"startTime":878.683,"endTime":884.203,"body":"zero to one and then from one to 100."},{"startTime":887.497,"endTime":890.767,"body":"If you've ever struggled to explain"},{"startTime":887.497,"endTime":890.767,"body":"developer experience to non-technical"},{"startTime":890.767,"endTime":892.917,"body":"leadership, this workshop is for you."},{"startTime":893.477,"endTime":898.627,"body":"LinearB to learn how to translate Dev X"},{"startTime":893.477,"endTime":898.627,"body":"metrics like developer satisfaction and AI"},{"startTime":898.627,"endTime":901.087,"body":"performance into clear business outcomes."},{"startTime":901.457,"endTime":904.712,"body":"We will give you proven strategies"},{"startTime":901.457,"endTime":904.712,"body":"to align engineering priorities"},{"startTime":904.742,"endTime":908.68,"body":"with what execs care about the"},{"startTime":904.742,"endTime":908.68,"body":"most, faster delivery, reduced"},{"startTime":908.68,"endTime":911.44,"body":"cost, and ROI on AI investments."},{"startTime":911.65,"endTime":915.61,"body":"Plus, you'll get early access to our"},{"startTime":911.65,"endTime":915.61,"body":"CTO board deck template to make your"},{"startTime":915.64,"endTime":917.23,"body":"next leadership meeting effortless."},{"startTime":917.62,"endTime":919.15,"body":"Head to the show notes to register."},{"startTime":923.441,"endTime":927.391,"body":"I'm your host, Andrew Zigler, Developer"},{"startTime":923.441,"endTime":927.391,"body":"Advocate at LinearB, and today"},{"startTime":927.391,"endTime":929.081,"body":"we're asking a timeless question."},{"startTime":929.511,"endTime":932.431,"body":"How can engineers ship"},{"startTime":929.511,"endTime":932.431,"body":"both fast and happy?"},{"startTime":932.961,"endTime":937.291,"body":"Joining us is Thanos Diacakis, a"},{"startTime":932.961,"endTime":937.291,"body":"fractional CTO and engineering coach whose"},{"startTime":937.301,"endTime":941.76,"body":"background includes technical innovation"},{"startTime":937.301,"endTime":941.76,"body":"for Uber at the office of the CTO."},{"startTime":942.475,"endTime":946.845,"body":"Thanos has years of experience building"},{"startTime":942.475,"endTime":946.845,"body":"high performing teams, and you can say"},{"startTime":946.845,"endTime":951.205,"body":"that he turns chaos into predictable"},{"startTime":946.845,"endTime":951.205,"body":"results with just a snap of his fingers."},{"startTime":951.545,"endTime":953.355,"body":"And Thanos, thanks for being here."},{"startTime":953.776,"endTime":954.829,"body":"It's great to be here."},{"startTime":954.869,"endTime":956.259,"body":"Looking forward to the conversation."},{"startTime":956.721,"endTime":958.031,"body":"Yeah, it'll be a fun one today."},{"startTime":958.061,"endTime":961.621,"body":"And one of the things that most"},{"startTime":958.061,"endTime":961.621,"body":"excites me about your background is how"},{"startTime":961.621,"endTime":963.941,"body":"coaching oriented your perspective is."},{"startTime":964.031,"endTime":967.511,"body":"I think there will be a lot of"},{"startTime":964.031,"endTime":967.511,"body":"learning opportunities, along the way."},{"startTime":967.726,"endTime":971.336,"body":"So let's get started and kick"},{"startTime":967.726,"endTime":971.336,"body":"things off with mental models,"},{"startTime":971.576,"endTime":975.406,"body":"which represent how people frame"},{"startTime":971.576,"endTime":975.406,"body":"and think about things over time."},{"startTime":975.776,"endTime":979.676,"body":"And Thanos, you've spent a lot of time"},{"startTime":975.776,"endTime":979.676,"body":"decoding this for engineering teams."},{"startTime":979.896,"endTime":984.406,"body":"What are the common mental models for how"},{"startTime":979.896,"endTime":984.406,"body":"leaders might perceive engineering work?"},{"startTime":984.407,"endTime":985.651,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":986.349,"endTime":989.049,"body":"one of the most common things"},{"startTime":986.349,"endTime":989.049,"body":"that I see is the mental models"},{"startTime":989.049,"endTime":989.989,"body":"don't really match, right?"},{"startTime":989.989,"endTime":994.109,"body":"So the leader has a mental model"},{"startTime":989.989,"endTime":994.109,"body":"in their head and the engineering"},{"startTime":994.109,"endTime":995.879,"body":"team works in a certain way."},{"startTime":996.196,"endTime":998.736,"body":"when those two don't match,"},{"startTime":996.196,"endTime":998.736,"body":"bad things happen, right?"},{"startTime":998.736,"endTime":1002.121,"body":"So one of the most common things"},{"startTime":998.736,"endTime":1002.121,"body":"that I see is People outside"},{"startTime":1002.121,"endTime":1004.951,"body":"engineering think of engineering as"},{"startTime":1002.121,"endTime":1004.951,"body":"some kind of feature factory, right?"},{"startTime":1004.991,"endTime":1006.921,"body":"I put engineers in the process, right?"},{"startTime":1006.921,"endTime":1011.041,"body":"I give dollars to hire engineers and"},{"startTime":1006.921,"endTime":1011.041,"body":"I get features out the other door."},{"startTime":1011.041,"endTime":1014.621,"body":"And to some extent, you know, that kind"},{"startTime":1011.041,"endTime":1014.621,"body":"of works, but it's not true all the way."},{"startTime":1015.011,"endTime":1017.791,"body":"And one of the most common"},{"startTime":1015.011,"endTime":1017.791,"body":"things that I see is People"},{"startTime":1017.791,"endTime":1020.251,"body":"don't understand what engineering"},{"startTime":1017.791,"endTime":1020.251,"body":"does and how engineering works."},{"startTime":1020.721,"endTime":1023.631,"body":"we have like, hands, or we have"},{"startTime":1020.721,"endTime":1023.631,"body":"butts in seats, or however you count"},{"startTime":1023.651,"endTime":1026.841,"body":"engineers, and you think that's a"},{"startTime":1023.651,"endTime":1026.841,"body":"direct correlation to the output."},{"startTime":1027.161,"endTime":1030.524,"body":"one of the things I like to start"},{"startTime":1027.161,"endTime":1030.524,"body":"explaining, uh, and, and make sure leaders"},{"startTime":1030.524,"endTime":1034.409,"body":"outside the technical organization know,"},{"startTime":1030.524,"endTime":1034.409,"body":"is that engineering does other kinds of"},{"startTime":1034.409,"endTime":1036.029,"body":"work other than putting out features."},{"startTime":1036.609,"endTime":1038.009,"body":"They have to fix bugs, right?"},{"startTime":1038.009,"endTime":1042.609,"body":"When you put out a feature and it hits"},{"startTime":1038.009,"endTime":1042.609,"body":"the customer, things always change and"},{"startTime":1042.619,"endTime":1043.899,"body":"things are always a little bit different."},{"startTime":1043.909,"endTime":1047.779,"body":"So you have to go and fix that"},{"startTime":1043.909,"endTime":1047.779,"body":"delta and clean up some of the bugs."},{"startTime":1048.209,"endTime":1049.939,"body":"In addition to that, every now"},{"startTime":1048.209,"endTime":1049.939,"body":"and then you have to take a"},{"startTime":1049.939,"endTime":1051.224,"body":"pause and sharpen your tools."},{"startTime":1052.204,"endTime":1053.364,"body":"You can use any analogy you want."},{"startTime":1053.364,"endTime":1054.174,"body":"Some people call it tech debt."},{"startTime":1054.174,"endTime":1055.064,"body":"I don't really like tech debt."},{"startTime":1055.064,"endTime":1056.404,"body":"I think it more of as investments."},{"startTime":1056.834,"endTime":1059.234,"body":"You have to go invest in your team,"},{"startTime":1056.834,"endTime":1059.234,"body":"whether this is the processes,"},{"startTime":1059.464,"endTime":1062.354,"body":"the tools, technologies that"},{"startTime":1059.464,"endTime":1062.354,"body":"you use, cleanups, refactorings."},{"startTime":1062.614,"endTime":1065.704,"body":"All of these things, these will"},{"startTime":1062.614,"endTime":1065.704,"body":"help you go faster in the future."},{"startTime":1065.704,"endTime":1067.874,"body":"And that's valuable work"},{"startTime":1065.704,"endTime":1067.874,"body":"that a team has to do."},{"startTime":1068.414,"endTime":1069.914,"body":"And then you also have to manage risk."},{"startTime":1070.174,"endTime":1071.224,"body":"this is like the four items."},{"startTime":1071.224,"endTime":1072.844,"body":"They come from something"},{"startTime":1071.224,"endTime":1072.844,"body":"called the flow framework."},{"startTime":1073.114,"endTime":1074.714,"body":"but it's not just feature work."},{"startTime":1074.724,"endTime":1077.544,"body":"It's all these things, that"},{"startTime":1074.724,"endTime":1077.544,"body":"engineering teams have to do."},{"startTime":1077.724,"endTime":1079.854,"body":"And oftentimes they just don't do them."},{"startTime":1079.854,"endTime":1082.834,"body":"Sometimes they just say they don't do"},{"startTime":1079.854,"endTime":1082.834,"body":"them, but they do them behind the scenes."},{"startTime":1083.204,"endTime":1086.884,"body":"But a lot of times what happens is"},{"startTime":1083.204,"endTime":1086.884,"body":"because the business is so insistent"},{"startTime":1086.884,"endTime":1090.004,"body":"upon features, The engineering"},{"startTime":1086.884,"endTime":1090.004,"body":"team gets trained that features"},{"startTime":1090.004,"endTime":1092.944,"body":"is the only thing that matters,"},{"startTime":1090.004,"endTime":1092.944,"body":"and this work never gets done."},{"startTime":1092.954,"endTime":1097.564,"body":"And when you have too many bugs, customers"},{"startTime":1092.954,"endTime":1097.564,"body":"complain, or if you don't invest in your"},{"startTime":1097.574,"endTime":1099.464,"body":"team, your velocity really slows down."},{"startTime":1100.081,"endTime":1103.451,"body":"And if you don't fix risk, then you get"},{"startTime":1100.081,"endTime":1103.451,"body":"hacked, or you get some catastrophic"},{"startTime":1103.451,"endTime":1106.261,"body":"events because someone failed to"},{"startTime":1103.451,"endTime":1106.261,"body":"apply security patches on time."},{"startTime":1106.866,"endTime":1110.186,"body":"So that is one of the most common"},{"startTime":1106.866,"endTime":1110.186,"body":"things that I see where the"},{"startTime":1110.186,"endTime":1111.616,"body":"mental model sort of breaks down."},{"startTime":1112.116,"endTime":1115.586,"body":"And when leaders realize this, it's"},{"startTime":1112.116,"endTime":1115.586,"body":"fairly straightforward to sort of"},{"startTime":1115.666,"endTime":1119.116,"body":"connect the lines and say, well, okay,"},{"startTime":1115.666,"endTime":1119.116,"body":"my long term velocity is going to suffer"},{"startTime":1119.366,"endTime":1120.786,"body":"if I don't invest in these things."},{"startTime":1120.786,"endTime":1121.996,"body":"Well, how do we do it?"},{"startTime":1122.446,"endTime":1125.596,"body":"And they're often taken by surprise"},{"startTime":1122.446,"endTime":1125.596,"body":"when you have like a fairly mature team"},{"startTime":1125.596,"endTime":1127.996,"body":"that you tell them, well, you know,"},{"startTime":1125.596,"endTime":1127.996,"body":"maybe 30 percent of your time is going"},{"startTime":1127.996,"endTime":1131.776,"body":"to go on features and 30 percent on"},{"startTime":1127.996,"endTime":1131.776,"body":"bugs and 30 percent on investments."},{"startTime":1132.076,"endTime":1134.536,"body":"They expect it to be like"},{"startTime":1132.076,"endTime":1134.536,"body":"90 percent of features."},{"startTime":1134.874,"endTime":1137.684,"body":"If you have a green field, new"},{"startTime":1134.874,"endTime":1137.684,"body":"startup, you might be starting"},{"startTime":1137.684,"endTime":1140.874,"body":"with something like 90 percent and"},{"startTime":1137.684,"endTime":1140.874,"body":"you'll move to different later."},{"startTime":1140.874,"endTime":1143.734,"body":"This very much varies depending on"},{"startTime":1140.874,"endTime":1143.734,"body":"the maturity level that you're at."},{"startTime":1144.061,"endTime":1147.584,"body":"that is one of the most common"},{"startTime":1144.061,"endTime":1147.584,"body":"issues that I see across teams that"},{"startTime":1147.584,"endTime":1149.144,"body":"usually helps to correct up front."},{"startTime":1149.641,"endTime":1153.231,"body":"Yeah, and you know, we don't like that"},{"startTime":1149.641,"endTime":1153.231,"body":"word technical debt around here either."},{"startTime":1153.251,"endTime":1158.051,"body":"It's a very core part of what engineers do"},{"startTime":1153.251,"endTime":1158.051,"body":"and a phrasing that I hear people say that"},{"startTime":1158.051,"endTime":1160.231,"body":"I really like is keeping the lights on."},{"startTime":1160.261,"endTime":1164.051,"body":"It's acknowledging as it is part of"},{"startTime":1160.261,"endTime":1164.051,"body":"the work that you do in order to have"},{"startTime":1164.051,"endTime":1165.991,"body":"your output and maintain it over time."},{"startTime":1166.381,"endTime":1170.258,"body":"But when you're in that feature factory"},{"startTime":1166.381,"endTime":1170.258,"body":"like mental model, with your execs or"},{"startTime":1170.258,"endTime":1171.518,"body":"with your non technical leadership."},{"startTime":1171.518,"endTime":1172.608,"body":"It hurts you over time."},{"startTime":1172.948,"endTime":1176.018,"body":"how can, um, technical folks"},{"startTime":1172.948,"endTime":1176.018,"body":"help those non technical"},{"startTime":1176.018,"endTime":1178.228,"body":"leaders reset that mental model?"},{"startTime":1179.081,"endTime":1182.141,"body":"I think it's a conversation that you"},{"startTime":1179.081,"endTime":1182.141,"body":"need to have and you can have this"},{"startTime":1182.141,"endTime":1185.001,"body":"conversation by using real time examples."},{"startTime":1185.518,"endTime":1188.448,"body":"it's perhaps also for me a bit"},{"startTime":1185.518,"endTime":1188.448,"body":"beyond keeping the lights on,"},{"startTime":1188.938,"endTime":1191.978,"body":"because it's about"},{"startTime":1188.938,"endTime":1191.978,"body":"engineering excellence, right?"},{"startTime":1192.028,"endTime":1194.428,"body":"When you go and you build a bridge."},{"startTime":1194.853,"endTime":1196.763,"body":"You're going to go do"},{"startTime":1194.853,"endTime":1196.763,"body":"some design up front."},{"startTime":1196.763,"endTime":1199.133,"body":"You're going to calculate the load"},{"startTime":1196.763,"endTime":1199.133,"body":"bearings and all that stuff before"},{"startTime":1199.133,"endTime":1203.243,"body":"you even like start putting anything"},{"startTime":1199.133,"endTime":1203.243,"body":"between the two ends of the river, right?"},{"startTime":1203.683,"endTime":1207.603,"body":"in software engineering, somehow we,"},{"startTime":1203.683,"endTime":1207.603,"body":"we tend to skip that sometimes and be"},{"startTime":1207.603,"endTime":1210.473,"body":"like, yeah, we can, you know, we'll do a"},{"startTime":1207.603,"endTime":1210.473,"body":"testing afterwards or something like that."},{"startTime":1210.473,"endTime":1210.683,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1211.173,"endTime":1215.083,"body":"So it's about having, the realization"},{"startTime":1211.173,"endTime":1215.083,"body":"that these are not valid shortcuts."},{"startTime":1215.083,"endTime":1215.973,"body":"They're not really shortcuts."},{"startTime":1216.013,"endTime":1219.983,"body":"Once you start incurring technical"},{"startTime":1216.013,"endTime":1219.983,"body":"debt, it doesn't often bite you"},{"startTime":1219.983,"endTime":1221.713,"body":"like next year or next month."},{"startTime":1221.803,"endTime":1225.113,"body":"It's usually like the next"},{"startTime":1221.803,"endTime":1225.113,"body":"day or the day after that."},{"startTime":1225.413,"endTime":1227.963,"body":"And because you've made a decision, you"},{"startTime":1225.413,"endTime":1227.963,"body":"kind of want to stick with decision."},{"startTime":1227.973,"endTime":1229.503,"body":"No, this is the right approach."},{"startTime":1230.173,"endTime":1233.823,"body":"And so it has impact on you very quickly."},{"startTime":1234.153,"endTime":1236.923,"body":"I think you can use these examples"},{"startTime":1234.153,"endTime":1236.923,"body":"to go back to your leadership and"},{"startTime":1236.923,"endTime":1240.703,"body":"go, look, we tried this and three"},{"startTime":1236.923,"endTime":1240.703,"body":"days later, this is what happened."},{"startTime":1240.793,"endTime":1244.883,"body":"So this is how we should"},{"startTime":1240.793,"endTime":1244.883,"body":"do it to do it better."},{"startTime":1244.913,"endTime":1248.343,"body":"And these are all the other activities"},{"startTime":1244.913,"endTime":1248.343,"body":"that we have to do as part of"},{"startTime":1248.343,"endTime":1251.833,"body":"engineering to make sure that we're"},{"startTime":1248.343,"endTime":1251.833,"body":"shipping things in the right way."},{"startTime":1252.283,"endTime":1254.383,"body":"shortcuts are often really not shortcuts."},{"startTime":1254.453,"endTime":1256.343,"body":"And as you start pointing"},{"startTime":1254.453,"endTime":1256.343,"body":"this out and going from first"},{"startTime":1256.353,"endTime":1258.253,"body":"principles, you can get to that."},{"startTime":1258.895,"endTime":1259.255,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1259.265,"endTime":1261.445,"body":"It's about connecting the"},{"startTime":1259.265,"endTime":1261.445,"body":"dots between the problems."},{"startTime":1261.948,"endTime":1262.228,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1262.228,"endTime":1265.758,"body":"And it's not as much as in, Hey, I"},{"startTime":1262.228,"endTime":1265.758,"body":"told you so, but it's like, let me show"},{"startTime":1265.758,"endTime":1267.388,"body":"you the right way of doing this thing."},{"startTime":1267.388,"endTime":1268.458,"body":"And let me show you how"},{"startTime":1268.758,"endTime":1269.628,"body":"this actually works."},{"startTime":1269.868,"endTime":1272.578,"body":"And I think you can also"},{"startTime":1269.868,"endTime":1272.578,"body":"present trade offs to the"},{"startTime":1272.578,"endTime":1274.008,"body":"business that help them, right?"},{"startTime":1274.008,"endTime":1279.078,"body":"You can say, Hey, maybe, instead of,"},{"startTime":1274.008,"endTime":1279.078,"body":"we have to do these other activities."},{"startTime":1279.158,"endTime":1282.308,"body":"Instead of shipping that feature"},{"startTime":1279.158,"endTime":1282.308,"body":"in a crappy way in two days,"},{"startTime":1282.308,"endTime":1284.948,"body":"it will take us three days,"},{"startTime":1282.308,"endTime":1284.948,"body":"but then it will be repeatable."},{"startTime":1284.968,"endTime":1286.398,"body":"And you can ship the next"},{"startTime":1284.968,"endTime":1286.398,"body":"one three days later."},{"startTime":1286.398,"endTime":1287.468,"body":"And the next one, three days later."},{"startTime":1287.778,"endTime":1291.838,"body":"And now we have this lead time from"},{"startTime":1287.778,"endTime":1291.838,"body":"idea to actual implementation that is"},{"startTime":1291.868,"endTime":1294.888,"body":"fairly quick, unlike maybe what we had"},{"startTime":1291.868,"endTime":1294.888,"body":"when we were building and adding this"},{"startTime":1294.888,"endTime":1297.178,"body":"technical debt, and now we have to pay"},{"startTime":1294.888,"endTime":1297.178,"body":"all this interest and we have to deal"},{"startTime":1297.178,"endTime":1300.288,"body":"with the outages and people are distracted"},{"startTime":1297.178,"endTime":1300.288,"body":"because they have to go fix bugs,"},{"startTime":1300.678,"endTime":1300.848,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":1300.848,"endTime":1303.248,"body":"So if we do it right, we don't"},{"startTime":1300.848,"endTime":1303.248,"body":"actually have to go back to it"},{"startTime":1303.258,"endTime":1305.748,"body":"much, or we have to go back to"},{"startTime":1303.258,"endTime":1305.748,"body":"it a lot less than we had before."},{"startTime":1305.988,"endTime":1307.898,"body":"So it really helps our long term velocity."},{"startTime":1308.195,"endTime":1308.425,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1308.425,"endTime":1311.035,"body":"Because it's incorporated into"},{"startTime":1308.425,"endTime":1311.035,"body":"the process you're already doing."},{"startTime":1311.035,"endTime":1314.535,"body":"It's already well educated across both"},{"startTime":1311.035,"endTime":1314.535,"body":"sides that this is part of the work."},{"startTime":1314.535,"endTime":1316.485,"body":"It's not just new feature,"},{"startTime":1314.535,"endTime":1316.485,"body":"new feature, new feature."},{"startTime":1316.855,"endTime":1317.665,"body":"It's about maintaining it."},{"startTime":1317.9,"endTime":1320.39,"body":"And I really like the way you"},{"startTime":1317.9,"endTime":1320.39,"body":"described it as being a bridge."},{"startTime":1320.54,"endTime":1323.38,"body":"Or like, if you're going to build a"},{"startTime":1320.54,"endTime":1323.38,"body":"bridge, before you, put anything over"},{"startTime":1323.38,"endTime":1326.39,"body":"the water and connect the two sides"},{"startTime":1323.38,"endTime":1326.39,"body":"of land, you gotta do a lot of work."},{"startTime":1326.39,"endTime":1329.72,"body":"And imagine if we built bridges"},{"startTime":1326.39,"endTime":1329.72,"body":"like how we built software."},{"startTime":1329.77,"endTime":1332.43,"body":"That would be scary, because we would"},{"startTime":1329.77,"endTime":1332.43,"body":"build the bridge first, and then we"},{"startTime":1332.43,"endTime":1335.86,"body":"would do the testing and see what"},{"startTime":1332.43,"endTime":1335.86,"body":"goes wrong with it or what happens."},{"startTime":1336.12,"endTime":1339.038,"body":"But at the same time, there's a"},{"startTime":1336.12,"endTime":1339.038,"body":"lot of software that gets built"},{"startTime":1339.108,"endTime":1342.008,"body":"that is just as critical to"},{"startTime":1339.108,"endTime":1342.008,"body":"human and human lives as bridges."},{"startTime":1342.068,"endTime":1345.888,"body":"And so it's definitely a really"},{"startTime":1342.068,"endTime":1345.888,"body":"interesting mentality to apply."},{"startTime":1346.038,"endTime":1349.248,"body":"Do you think on the engineering"},{"startTime":1346.038,"endTime":1349.248,"body":"teams, they have some"},{"startTime":1349.248,"endTime":1350.918,"body":"mental model work to do too?"},{"startTime":1351.168,"endTime":1354.528,"body":"Is it maybe more than just the"},{"startTime":1351.168,"endTime":1354.528,"body":"executive that has to change"},{"startTime":1354.528,"endTime":1355.398,"body":"how they think about it?"},{"startTime":1357.896,"endTime":1358.516,"body":"it's, it's."},{"startTime":1358.981,"endTime":1362.351,"body":"Hard to put this in a politically"},{"startTime":1358.981,"endTime":1362.351,"body":"correct way, but I think we as"},{"startTime":1362.351,"endTime":1367.231,"body":"engineers have often failed because"},{"startTime":1362.351,"endTime":1367.231,"body":"we have accepted these requests."},{"startTime":1367.741,"endTime":1370.651,"body":"So if, if you told a, you know,"},{"startTime":1367.741,"endTime":1370.651,"body":"whoever's responsible for a bridge"},{"startTime":1370.651,"endTime":1374.441,"body":"project to start sending the traffic"},{"startTime":1370.651,"endTime":1374.441,"body":"and you put the guardrails afterwards,"},{"startTime":1374.871,"endTime":1376.961,"body":"because in the beginning, there's"},{"startTime":1374.871,"endTime":1376.961,"body":"not going to be that much traffic"},{"startTime":1376.961,"endTime":1378.061,"body":"and people are going to be careful."},{"startTime":1378.081,"endTime":1378.891,"body":"So it's fine."},{"startTime":1378.938,"endTime":1379.398,"body":"Right,"},{"startTime":1380.411,"endTime":1382.741,"body":"Most people would say, no,"},{"startTime":1380.411,"endTime":1382.741,"body":"there's no way I'm doing that."},{"startTime":1382.741,"endTime":1383.901,"body":"And I would quit before you do that."},{"startTime":1383.901,"endTime":1384.901,"body":"Cause people are going to get killed."},{"startTime":1384.921,"endTime":1387.121,"body":"In software, we're like,"},{"startTime":1384.921,"endTime":1387.121,"body":"Yeah, let's push it out."},{"startTime":1387.121,"endTime":1388.141,"body":"We're at the test afterwards."},{"startTime":1388.181,"endTime":1388.761,"body":"No problem."},{"startTime":1389.031,"endTime":1391.081,"body":"And, and, you know, I've been guilty."},{"startTime":1391.081,"endTime":1392.211,"body":"I've said yes to it sometimes."},{"startTime":1392.251,"endTime":1395.185,"body":"Now I'm, as I've had more"},{"startTime":1392.251,"endTime":1395.185,"body":"experience and been burnt more,"},{"startTime":1395.225,"endTime":1397.605,"body":"I'm now more empowered to say no."},{"startTime":1398.185,"endTime":1398.855,"body":"And you know what?"},{"startTime":1398.865,"endTime":1400.715,"body":"That's not a responsible way"},{"startTime":1398.865,"endTime":1400.715,"body":"to do software engineering."},{"startTime":1400.715,"endTime":1401.515,"body":"And I will not do that."},{"startTime":1401.515,"endTime":1402.865,"body":"Now it's, it's hard, right?"},{"startTime":1402.865,"endTime":1403.515,"body":"Cause you don't always"},{"startTime":1403.525,"endTime":1407.015,"body":"have that luxury of being able to"},{"startTime":1403.525,"endTime":1407.015,"body":"go and say, no, I'm not doing this."},{"startTime":1407.485,"endTime":1409.195,"body":"And it's especially hard"},{"startTime":1407.485,"endTime":1409.195,"body":"because I think we've."},{"startTime":1410.335,"endTime":1414.205,"body":"Developed into a culture where this"},{"startTime":1410.335,"endTime":1414.205,"body":"is somewhat the norm, and I think"},{"startTime":1414.205,"endTime":1417.325,"body":"that's something that I would like to"},{"startTime":1414.205,"endTime":1417.325,"body":"disrupt a little bit as best as I can"},{"startTime":1417.325,"endTime":1419.015,"body":"by having conversations with this."},{"startTime":1419.055,"endTime":1419.955,"body":"This is not cool."},{"startTime":1419.955,"endTime":1423.455,"body":"It is not acceptable to put things out"},{"startTime":1419.955,"endTime":1423.455,"body":"without testing, without documentation."},{"startTime":1423.755,"endTime":1425.385,"body":"And we're not talking about"},{"startTime":1423.755,"endTime":1425.385,"body":"going to extremes, right?"},{"startTime":1425.385,"endTime":1428.765,"body":"We're not saying you write a feature for"},{"startTime":1425.385,"endTime":1428.765,"body":"one day and then you spend 10 days doing"},{"startTime":1428.785,"endTime":1431.425,"body":"other stuff and, you know, you have to"},{"startTime":1428.785,"endTime":1431.425,"body":"have the perfect documentation with the"},{"startTime":1431.425,"endTime":1433.005,"body":"perfect grammar and the nicest formatting."},{"startTime":1433.385,"endTime":1435.755,"body":"But there are some basics that"},{"startTime":1433.385,"endTime":1435.755,"body":"have to be done before you can"},{"startTime":1435.755,"endTime":1436.995,"body":"consider something complete."},{"startTime":1438.027,"endTime":1438.617,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":1438.687,"endTime":1442.747,"body":"And so maybe once you've done that work,"},{"startTime":1438.687,"endTime":1442.747,"body":"and you and your engineering teams are"},{"startTime":1442.977,"endTime":1447.417,"body":"on the same page as your non engineering"},{"startTime":1442.977,"endTime":1447.417,"body":"leaders about how you should think about"},{"startTime":1447.467,"endTime":1451.337,"body":"building software and the amount of energy"},{"startTime":1447.467,"endTime":1451.337,"body":"that in time that people need to invest in"},{"startTime":1451.337,"endTime":1456.397,"body":"it, then what's the next step for building"},{"startTime":1451.337,"endTime":1456.397,"body":"that engineering success over time?"},{"startTime":1457.109,"endTime":1460.159,"body":"Is there like a way to then build"},{"startTime":1457.109,"endTime":1460.159,"body":"the velocity once you have the buy in"},{"startTime":1460.169,"endTime":1463.779,"body":"about, okay, we have to do this work"},{"startTime":1460.169,"endTime":1463.779,"body":"to keep the lights on or do more?"},{"startTime":1464.182,"endTime":1468.942,"body":"there are practical things that you"},{"startTime":1464.182,"endTime":1468.942,"body":"can do as you move into, okay, now"},{"startTime":1469.032,"endTime":1472.312,"body":"we've changed our thinking a little"},{"startTime":1469.032,"endTime":1472.312,"body":"bit and let's see how we go about it."},{"startTime":1472.602,"endTime":1475.742,"body":"I want to start with one more mental"},{"startTime":1472.602,"endTime":1475.742,"body":"model before we jump into how,"},{"startTime":1476.102,"endTime":1478.412,"body":"which is what is important here, right?"},{"startTime":1478.432,"endTime":1482.58,"body":"And if you think of a business that writes"},{"startTime":1478.432,"endTime":1482.58,"body":"software, something along these lines"},{"startTime":1482.6,"endTime":1488.17,"body":"is, is true, which is we deliver value"},{"startTime":1482.6,"endTime":1488.17,"body":"to our customers through software and"},{"startTime":1488.18,"endTime":1490.04,"body":"we get paid for that in some way, right?"},{"startTime":1490.165,"endTime":1493.495,"body":"So we ship some new feature that is"},{"startTime":1490.165,"endTime":1493.495,"body":"value to whoever is using this feature."},{"startTime":1493.735,"endTime":1496.155,"body":"We make money off of that, whether"},{"startTime":1493.735,"endTime":1496.155,"body":"it's subscriptions or new software"},{"startTime":1496.155,"endTime":1497.165,"body":"versions or however it works."},{"startTime":1497.165,"endTime":1500.825,"body":"But the general gist is the"},{"startTime":1497.165,"endTime":1500.825,"body":"benefit here is in shipping."},{"startTime":1501.717,"endTime":1502.077,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1502.315,"endTime":1503.725,"body":"The benefit is not in doing work."},{"startTime":1504.035,"endTime":1505.405,"body":"Doing work doesn't get us into anything."},{"startTime":1505.435,"endTime":1509.295,"body":"The benefit is getting the feature"},{"startTime":1505.435,"endTime":1509.295,"body":"in the usable form, a good feature"},{"startTime":1509.295,"endTime":1510.675,"body":"in the hands of our customers."},{"startTime":1511.035,"endTime":1515.165,"body":"And what you see in a lot of places"},{"startTime":1511.035,"endTime":1515.165,"body":"is they have this pipeline model"},{"startTime":1515.665,"endTime":1518.925,"body":"where you start off and maybe you"},{"startTime":1515.665,"endTime":1518.925,"body":"have some kind of user research."},{"startTime":1519.365,"endTime":1522.695,"body":"Maybe you have then some design,"},{"startTime":1519.365,"endTime":1522.695,"body":"maybe that has the product."},{"startTime":1522.725,"endTime":1524.195,"body":"Maybe then it goes to engineering."},{"startTime":1524.455,"endTime":1527.105,"body":"Maybe you have QA, sometimes"},{"startTime":1524.455,"endTime":1527.105,"body":"you have operations that will"},{"startTime":1527.105,"endTime":1528.385,"body":"deploy the software separately."},{"startTime":1528.785,"endTime":1534.095,"body":"and you have this pipeline where a feature"},{"startTime":1528.785,"endTime":1534.095,"body":"goes in the pipeline and it has like"},{"startTime":1534.095,"endTime":1535.435,"body":"five or six steps before it comes out."},{"startTime":1535.435,"endTime":1536.685,"body":"And maybe it's not five"},{"startTime":1535.435,"endTime":1536.685,"body":"or six in the old place."},{"startTime":1536.685,"endTime":1540.725,"body":"Maybe it's two or three, but by the"},{"startTime":1536.685,"endTime":1540.725,"body":"time it pops out, the first phase has"},{"startTime":1540.725,"endTime":1542.155,"body":"moved on and is doing something else."},{"startTime":1542.155,"endTime":1542.295,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1542.295,"endTime":1543.405,"body":"So maybe three features down."},{"startTime":1544.095,"endTime":1545.195,"body":"And this keeps everyone busy."},{"startTime":1545.205,"endTime":1547.825,"body":"You have this very pipeline model"},{"startTime":1545.205,"endTime":1547.825,"body":"where everyone has work to do."},{"startTime":1548.195,"endTime":1552.145,"body":"And if everything was flowing smoothly,"},{"startTime":1548.195,"endTime":1552.145,"body":"everything is happening in parallel."},{"startTime":1552.515,"endTime":1555.735,"body":"And you can be spitting out"},{"startTime":1552.515,"endTime":1555.735,"body":"several things as soon as they"},{"startTime":1555.735,"endTime":1556.725,"body":"hit the end of the pipeline."},{"startTime":1557.045,"endTime":1559.685,"body":"The problem with that is it never"},{"startTime":1557.045,"endTime":1559.685,"body":"really happens like that in reality."},{"startTime":1560.035,"endTime":1562.785,"body":"Because what happens is when you ship"},{"startTime":1560.035,"endTime":1562.785,"body":"something at the end, you find a bug."},{"startTime":1563.055,"endTime":1565.665,"body":"And the bug now has to go all the"},{"startTime":1563.055,"endTime":1565.665,"body":"way back to the beginning and be"},{"startTime":1565.665,"endTime":1567.015,"body":"like, Oh, we didn't think of this."},{"startTime":1567.015,"endTime":1567.785,"body":"How do we fix this?"},{"startTime":1568.425,"endTime":1571.395,"body":"And then now that will create a gap in"},{"startTime":1568.425,"endTime":1571.395,"body":"the pipeline as that whatever work was"},{"startTime":1571.395,"endTime":1572.945,"body":"being done isn't being done anymore."},{"startTime":1573.185,"endTime":1573.335,"body":"And then"},{"startTime":1573.335,"endTime":1576.935,"body":"I might skip and hop in some other"},{"startTime":1573.335,"endTime":1576.935,"body":"places in the pipeline and jump around."},{"startTime":1577.625,"endTime":1579.285,"body":"And that doesn't really"},{"startTime":1577.625,"endTime":1579.285,"body":"end up with good field."},{"startTime":1579.285,"endTime":1580.545,"body":"The pipeline ends up breaking."},{"startTime":1580.905,"endTime":1585.075,"body":"You have lost context because you may be"},{"startTime":1580.905,"endTime":1585.075,"body":"several weeks ahead from what had happened"},{"startTime":1585.325,"endTime":1588.315,"body":"when you first shipped the feature to"},{"startTime":1585.325,"endTime":1588.315,"body":"when you're going to revise the feature."},{"startTime":1588.675,"endTime":1590.585,"body":"And it turns into a big fat mess."},{"startTime":1590.877,"endTime":1595.507,"body":"I'm saying this because One of the"},{"startTime":1590.877,"endTime":1595.507,"body":"things as we go over the different"},{"startTime":1595.537,"endTime":1598.577,"body":"phases of how to actually implement"},{"startTime":1595.537,"endTime":1598.577,"body":"this is focus on the goal, right?"},{"startTime":1598.577,"endTime":1600.357,"body":"Focus on what is important in shipping."},{"startTime":1600.737,"endTime":1603.907,"body":"You don't want to be locally efficient"},{"startTime":1600.737,"endTime":1603.907,"body":"where everyone is busy in their"},{"startTime":1603.907,"endTime":1607.657,"body":"little cubicle doing their thing"},{"startTime":1603.907,"endTime":1607.657,"body":"or running in their, in the maze."},{"startTime":1607.897,"endTime":1608.077,"body":"What"},{"startTime":1608.087,"endTime":1611.237,"body":"you want to make sure is that you've"},{"startTime":1608.087,"endTime":1611.237,"body":"organized your teams in a way."},{"startTime":1612.082,"endTime":1613.582,"body":"that they can actually produce results."},{"startTime":1613.592,"endTime":1615.512,"body":"So that usually means small teams."},{"startTime":1615.672,"endTime":1619.592,"body":"if you subscribe to team topologies, that"},{"startTime":1615.672,"endTime":1619.592,"body":"would be the stream aligned teams, they"},{"startTime":1619.592,"endTime":1621.122,"body":"call them that have cross functional."},{"startTime":1621.152,"endTime":1623.222,"body":"They can do stuff inside that team."},{"startTime":1623.232,"endTime":1625.652,"body":"They don't have to have many other"},{"startTime":1623.232,"endTime":1625.652,"body":"interactions with other teams."},{"startTime":1626.172,"endTime":1631.352,"body":"So with that said and done, I like to"},{"startTime":1626.172,"endTime":1631.352,"body":"break this in, in four, linear steps."},{"startTime":1631.372,"endTime":1633.142,"body":"Now, They're kind of linear."},{"startTime":1633.142,"endTime":1635.552,"body":"You kind of may have to jump around"},{"startTime":1633.142,"endTime":1635.552,"body":"sometimes, especially if you're a"},{"startTime":1635.552,"endTime":1638.352,"body":"bit in the more mature phase, but"},{"startTime":1635.552,"endTime":1638.352,"body":"it's easy to sort of break this down"},{"startTime":1638.932,"endTime":1643.012,"body":"into a linear way, and there are"},{"startTime":1638.932,"endTime":1643.012,"body":"iterations, quality, complexity, and"},{"startTime":1643.012,"endTime":1644.362,"body":"last is planning and predictability."},{"startTime":1644.362,"endTime":1647.142,"body":"So let's break this down because"},{"startTime":1644.362,"endTime":1647.142,"body":"that's a lot to take in at once."},{"startTime":1647.142,"endTime":1647.322,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1647.67,"endTime":1648.93,"body":"first step is iterations."},{"startTime":1649.21,"endTime":1652.43,"body":"What we want from a software team"},{"startTime":1649.21,"endTime":1652.43,"body":"is to be able to go from an idea"},{"startTime":1652.85,"endTime":1656.02,"body":"to software in customer's hands"},{"startTime":1652.85,"endTime":1656.02,"body":"in a fairly quick period of time."},{"startTime":1656.425,"endTime":1660.365,"body":"this could be days, this could"},{"startTime":1656.425,"endTime":1660.365,"body":"be a week, in some cases longer,"},{"startTime":1660.365,"endTime":1661.275,"body":"but that's the exception."},{"startTime":1661.295,"endTime":1665.655,"body":"But like not a month or six months"},{"startTime":1661.295,"endTime":1665.655,"body":"or a quarter or anything like that."},{"startTime":1666.115,"endTime":1668.565,"body":"There's a bunch of tooling"},{"startTime":1666.115,"endTime":1668.565,"body":"that you need to have in place"},{"startTime":1668.575,"endTime":1669.485,"body":"to be able to do that, right?"},{"startTime":1669.485,"endTime":1672.205,"body":"So from, you know, the engineer"},{"startTime":1669.485,"endTime":1672.205,"body":"is like typing some code."},{"startTime":1672.525,"endTime":1674.935,"body":"If your linters are working correctly,"},{"startTime":1672.525,"endTime":1674.935,"body":"you're going to save yourself from"},{"startTime":1674.945,"endTime":1677.995,"body":"a bunch of hassle all the way down"},{"startTime":1674.945,"endTime":1677.995,"body":"the other end of the pipeline."},{"startTime":1678.32,"endTime":1682.71,"body":"When things are coming out, CICD"},{"startTime":1678.32,"endTime":1682.71,"body":"pipelines, tests, uh, automations, all"},{"startTime":1682.71,"endTime":1684.34,"body":"that good stuff goes in iterations."},{"startTime":1684.69,"endTime":1688.52,"body":"And you'd be surprised, like, I"},{"startTime":1684.69,"endTime":1688.52,"body":"work with a lot of teams, and you go"},{"startTime":1688.52,"endTime":1691.17,"body":"in and you look at what they have,"},{"startTime":1688.52,"endTime":1691.17,"body":"it's not that they're stupid, right?"},{"startTime":1691.17,"endTime":1691.77,"body":"They're busy."},{"startTime":1692.06,"endTime":1694.92,"body":"So from the 10 or 20 things they"},{"startTime":1692.06,"endTime":1694.92,"body":"should be doing in the iterations"},{"startTime":1694.96,"endTime":1696.984,"body":"category, they might be doing 5 or 10."},{"startTime":1697.545,"endTime":1698.665,"body":"sometimes it's lack of knowledge."},{"startTime":1698.665,"endTime":1700.925,"body":"Sometimes they heard this is a good"},{"startTime":1698.665,"endTime":1700.925,"body":"thing and they put it in, but it turns"},{"startTime":1700.925,"endTime":1702.375,"body":"out that's not that great thing to do."},{"startTime":1702.835,"endTime":1705.915,"body":"nailing iterations first is"},{"startTime":1702.835,"endTime":1705.915,"body":"a good way to get started."},{"startTime":1706.425,"endTime":1708.765,"body":"once you have iterations down,"},{"startTime":1706.425,"endTime":1708.765,"body":"then you start worrying a"},{"startTime":1708.765,"endTime":1710.265,"body":"little bit more about quality."},{"startTime":1710.965,"endTime":1713.125,"body":"as part of iterations, you're"},{"startTime":1710.965,"endTime":1713.125,"body":"definitely having some tests and some"},{"startTime":1713.155,"endTime":1716.285,"body":"automations and things like that, but"},{"startTime":1713.155,"endTime":1716.285,"body":"quality goes a bit beyond that, right?"},{"startTime":1716.285,"endTime":1719.315,"body":"Is, are the customers using it like you"},{"startTime":1716.285,"endTime":1719.315,"body":"thought they're going to be using it?"},{"startTime":1719.355,"endTime":1722.335,"body":"Is what you think is running"},{"startTime":1719.355,"endTime":1722.335,"body":"in production, What is"},{"startTime":1722.335,"endTime":1723.325,"body":"actually running in production?"},{"startTime":1723.325,"endTime":1724.855,"body":"Are the metrics that"},{"startTime":1723.325,"endTime":1724.855,"body":"you're reading correct?"},{"startTime":1725.195,"endTime":1728.355,"body":"So that has to do with tying the"},{"startTime":1725.195,"endTime":1728.355,"body":"feedback loop to a little bit"},{"startTime":1728.355,"endTime":1729.875,"body":"further to the right of the process."},{"startTime":1730.285,"endTime":1733.775,"body":"And making sure that everything is"},{"startTime":1730.285,"endTime":1733.775,"body":"working as you think it's working."},{"startTime":1733.775,"endTime":1737.255,"body":"This is establishing things like on"},{"startTime":1733.775,"endTime":1737.255,"body":"call and being able to have these quick"},{"startTime":1737.255,"endTime":1740.335,"body":"iterations, but also get pretty good"},{"startTime":1737.255,"endTime":1740.335,"body":"feedback and then close the loop and"},{"startTime":1740.345,"endTime":1744.515,"body":"be able to iterate back and, and have"},{"startTime":1740.345,"endTime":1744.515,"body":"software that is, that is pretty solid."},{"startTime":1744.955,"endTime":1747.545,"body":"Now you've got these nailed down,"},{"startTime":1744.955,"endTime":1747.545,"body":"you're doing now pretty good."},{"startTime":1747.645,"endTime":1750.825,"body":"And where that now begins to"},{"startTime":1747.645,"endTime":1750.825,"body":"bite companies is that they build"},{"startTime":1750.825,"endTime":1753.275,"body":"more complicated and complicated"},{"startTime":1750.825,"endTime":1753.275,"body":"and complicated stuff until it"},{"startTime":1753.275,"endTime":1754.305,"body":"collapses under its own weight."},{"startTime":1754.305,"endTime":1754.705,"body":"And we've all"},{"startTime":1754.705,"endTime":1755.145,"body":"been there."},{"startTime":1755.455,"endTime":1759.465,"body":"I've done this several times, right, where"},{"startTime":1755.455,"endTime":1759.465,"body":"you put it together and that seemed like"},{"startTime":1759.465,"endTime":1762.285,"body":"a good idea at the time, but the customer"},{"startTime":1759.465,"endTime":1762.285,"body":"turns out that you're using 10 percent of"},{"startTime":1762.285,"endTime":1763.665,"body":"this and you can go throw the rest away."},{"startTime":1764.61,"endTime":1767.73,"body":"Or, uh, you know, throwing Kafka"},{"startTime":1764.61,"endTime":1767.73,"body":"in here as your queue sounded like"},{"startTime":1767.73,"endTime":1769.78,"body":"a great idea, but we don't really"},{"startTime":1767.73,"endTime":1769.78,"body":"know how to manage this stuff."},{"startTime":1769.81,"endTime":1772.685,"body":"And, Uh, I was working with one"},{"startTime":1769.81,"endTime":1772.685,"body":"of my clients recently, that"},{"startTime":1772.725,"endTime":1774.355,"body":"is like a three person startup."},{"startTime":1774.355,"endTime":1777.755,"body":"And they were advised that a Kubernetes"},{"startTime":1774.355,"endTime":1777.755,"body":"cluster would be the right thing to do."},{"startTime":1777.795,"endTime":1779.215,"body":"And you can imagine how that went."},{"startTime":1779.654,"endTime":1782.603,"body":"it's, you know, someone was well meaning"},{"startTime":1779.654,"endTime":1782.603,"body":"with that idea, but it didn't work."},{"startTime":1782.623,"endTime":1783.193,"body":"So for me,"},{"startTime":1783.275,"endTime":1783.925,"body":"work for them."},{"startTime":1784.433,"endTime":1787.193,"body":"yeah, it did not pan out very well"},{"startTime":1784.433,"endTime":1787.193,"body":"because no one had Kubernetes experience."},{"startTime":1787.193,"endTime":1789.213,"body":"And it's really hard to manage"},{"startTime":1787.193,"endTime":1789.213,"body":"it for, for such a small,"},{"startTime":1789.295,"endTime":1790.495,"body":"For such a small team."},{"startTime":1790.615,"endTime":1791.015,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1792.02,"endTime":1795.45,"body":"so for, for step three here, we"},{"startTime":1792.02,"endTime":1795.45,"body":"try to manage with complexity."},{"startTime":1795.58,"endTime":1798.48,"body":"This is not just by the way, architectural"},{"startTime":1795.58,"endTime":1798.48,"body":"complexity could be team complexity,"},{"startTime":1798.48,"endTime":1802.04,"body":"procedural complexity, but all these"},{"startTime":1798.48,"endTime":1802.04,"body":"things that, that build up, we can"},{"startTime":1802.04,"endTime":1805.1,"body":"talk about bottlenecks in a little"},{"startTime":1802.04,"endTime":1805.1,"body":"bit, but generally speaking, if you"},{"startTime":1805.1,"endTime":1809.4,"body":"have bottlenecks or constraints, you"},{"startTime":1805.1,"endTime":1809.4,"body":"tend to put, certain rules in place"},{"startTime":1809.4,"endTime":1810.66,"body":"to manage those constraints, right?"},{"startTime":1810.66,"endTime":1811.79,"body":"So if you have."},{"startTime":1812.235,"endTime":1815.025,"body":"Some customer that has a thing that"},{"startTime":1812.235,"endTime":1815.025,"body":"happens on Fridays, we don't do"},{"startTime":1815.025,"endTime":1817.815,"body":"releases on Fridays because that"},{"startTime":1815.025,"endTime":1817.815,"body":"customer has that thing on Fridays"},{"startTime":1817.825,"endTime":1818.855,"body":"that we don't want to break, right?"},{"startTime":1819.195,"endTime":1821.325,"body":"And when that customer goes away"},{"startTime":1819.195,"endTime":1821.325,"body":"and we still have the rule of not"},{"startTime":1821.325,"endTime":1823.645,"body":"doing releases on Fridays, well"},{"startTime":1821.325,"endTime":1823.645,"body":"that rule needs to go because now"},{"startTime":1824.275,"endTime":1827.085,"body":"we're losing 20 percent of our"},{"startTime":1824.275,"endTime":1827.085,"body":"releases because of that thing"},{"startTime":1827.085,"endTime":1828.145,"body":"that doesn't exist anymore."},{"startTime":1828.706,"endTime":1831.686,"body":"So all these kinds of complexities,"},{"startTime":1828.706,"endTime":1831.686,"body":"in phase three, we like to look at and"},{"startTime":1831.686,"endTime":1833.847,"body":"sort of, you know, start untangling."},{"startTime":1833.847,"endTime":1834.727,"body":"This is interesting, right?"},{"startTime":1834.727,"endTime":1838.507,"body":"I said this is linear, but if you're"},{"startTime":1834.727,"endTime":1838.507,"body":"jumping in in a mature company that has"},{"startTime":1838.507,"endTime":1841.547,"body":"been writing software for a couple of"},{"startTime":1838.507,"endTime":1841.547,"body":"years, they might have some complexity"},{"startTime":1841.547,"endTime":1842.847,"body":"problems you need to jump in first."},{"startTime":1843.557,"endTime":1845.077,"body":"And this is where it gets fun, right?"},{"startTime":1845.097,"endTime":1848.477,"body":"Because if they have enough iteration"},{"startTime":1845.097,"endTime":1848.477,"body":"capabilities and quality capabilities,"},{"startTime":1848.497,"endTime":1851.537,"body":"you can jump in and fix some"},{"startTime":1848.497,"endTime":1851.537,"body":"complexity problems right up front."},{"startTime":1852.047,"endTime":1855.397,"body":"But if they don't, then you can't"},{"startTime":1852.047,"endTime":1855.397,"body":"go and refactor complexity out"},{"startTime":1855.397,"endTime":1857.877,"body":"without having some tests because"},{"startTime":1855.397,"endTime":1857.877,"body":"that's going to be problematic."},{"startTime":1857.877,"endTime":1860.467,"body":"So we go back to the beginning"},{"startTime":1857.877,"endTime":1860.467,"body":"and start from there."},{"startTime":1860.707,"endTime":1863.597,"body":"But sometimes if you have enough"},{"startTime":1860.707,"endTime":1863.597,"body":"capabilities, you may can go fix"},{"startTime":1863.597,"endTime":1867.927,"body":"your top complexity problems with"},{"startTime":1863.597,"endTime":1867.927,"body":"whatever iteration capabilities"},{"startTime":1867.927,"endTime":1872.162,"body":"you have, and then jump back a"},{"startTime":1867.927,"endTime":1872.162,"body":"little bit and fix your iterations."},{"startTime":1872.882,"endTime":1875.432,"body":"So, we got iterations, we got"},{"startTime":1872.882,"endTime":1875.432,"body":"quality down, we now have a"},{"startTime":1875.432,"endTime":1876.972,"body":"mechanism to manage in complexity."},{"startTime":1876.972,"endTime":1880.092,"body":"So we've got a pretty good loop"},{"startTime":1876.972,"endTime":1880.092,"body":"and now is a time where we can get"},{"startTime":1880.132,"endTime":1881.452,"body":"planning and predictability in."},{"startTime":1881.842,"endTime":1883.622,"body":"A lot of people try to"},{"startTime":1881.842,"endTime":1883.622,"body":"reach for this first."},{"startTime":1883.73,"endTime":1886.85,"body":"But if you couldn't plan a sprint"},{"startTime":1883.73,"endTime":1886.85,"body":"and, you know, half the things are"},{"startTime":1886.85,"endTime":1890.11,"body":"falling out the sprint in like a day"},{"startTime":1886.85,"endTime":1890.11,"body":"or a week, you're not gonna be able"},{"startTime":1890.11,"endTime":1891.56,"body":"to plan a six months or a year ahead."},{"startTime":1891.945,"endTime":1894.875,"body":"Yet most companies seem to spend an"},{"startTime":1891.945,"endTime":1894.875,"body":"inordinate amount of time planning"},{"startTime":1894.875,"endTime":1898.355,"body":"six months because we have to,"},{"startTime":1894.875,"endTime":1898.355,"body":"because the business wants to know."},{"startTime":1898.745,"endTime":1902.815,"body":"And if you go back and reflect on if"},{"startTime":1898.745,"endTime":1902.815,"body":"our planning was correct, it never is."},{"startTime":1902.845,"endTime":1903.685,"body":"And it's terrible."},{"startTime":1903.685,"endTime":1905.575,"body":"And it was not even close to reality yet."},{"startTime":1905.585,"endTime":1906.775,"body":"Next year, we go and plan again."},{"startTime":1907.345,"endTime":1909.235,"body":"It's like, what is the"},{"startTime":1907.345,"endTime":1909.235,"body":"value of this activity?"},{"startTime":1909.645,"endTime":1913.405,"body":"Now, if you've gotten your first three"},{"startTime":1909.645,"endTime":1913.405,"body":"phases down pretty solid, I think most"},{"startTime":1913.405,"endTime":1916.345,"body":"companies can get to a point where we can"},{"startTime":1913.405,"endTime":1916.345,"body":"get some planning and predictability in."},{"startTime":1916.825,"endTime":1919.005,"body":"You can, should be able"},{"startTime":1916.825,"endTime":1919.005,"body":"to look like a month in."},{"startTime":1919.005,"endTime":1920.405,"body":"You should be able to look a quarter in."},{"startTime":1920.905,"endTime":1924.515,"body":"A year, unless you're really good as maybe"},{"startTime":1920.905,"endTime":1924.515,"body":"stretching it, but you can get there."},{"startTime":1924.991,"endTime":1927.191,"body":"But you need to get the"},{"startTime":1924.991,"endTime":1927.191,"body":"other pieces in there first."},{"startTime":1927.201,"endTime":1930.881,"body":"So I kind of like to guide"},{"startTime":1927.201,"endTime":1930.881,"body":"folks, through these four phases."},{"startTime":1931.381,"endTime":1934.641,"body":"Again, it's not always exactly right,"},{"startTime":1931.381,"endTime":1934.641,"body":"but I think it gives people a way"},{"startTime":1934.641,"endTime":1937.281,"body":"to understand and be like, okay,"},{"startTime":1934.641,"endTime":1937.281,"body":"I can kind of see the path here."},{"startTime":1937.738,"endTime":1940.948,"body":"Yeah, and I think it's really key how you"},{"startTime":1937.738,"endTime":1940.948,"body":"point out that they're not, they're kind"},{"startTime":1940.948,"endTime":1943.228,"body":"of linear, they're not necessarily linear."},{"startTime":1943.418,"endTime":1944.848,"body":"They certainly build on each other."},{"startTime":1944.848,"endTime":1948.208,"body":"And before you can do the later ones, you"},{"startTime":1944.848,"endTime":1948.208,"body":"need to have figured out the earlier ones."},{"startTime":1948.208,"endTime":1952.488,"body":"But that ordering can be really"},{"startTime":1948.208,"endTime":1952.488,"body":"unique, depending on the resources"},{"startTime":1952.488,"endTime":1954.458,"body":"and even the age of your organization."},{"startTime":1954.999,"endTime":1960.009,"body":"And you're so right about teams that"},{"startTime":1954.999,"endTime":1960.009,"body":"will plan six months or a year or even"},{"startTime":1960.009,"endTime":1963.908,"body":"just six weeks ahead and then miss"},{"startTime":1960.009,"endTime":1963.908,"body":"that, but then plan again and again."},{"startTime":1963.918,"endTime":1969.063,"body":"And I think that A common pitfall,"},{"startTime":1963.918,"endTime":1969.063,"body":"going back to engineers accepting the"},{"startTime":1969.063,"endTime":1973.053,"body":"world that they can be in with execs"},{"startTime":1969.063,"endTime":1973.053,"body":"is that if they get into that mentality"},{"startTime":1973.053,"endTime":1976.943,"body":"of predicting wrong over and over"},{"startTime":1973.053,"endTime":1976.943,"body":"again, that burns through all of your"},{"startTime":1976.943,"endTime":1979.393,"body":"trust with your non technical leader."},{"startTime":1979.393,"endTime":1982.703,"body":"So then later when you do come to them"},{"startTime":1979.393,"endTime":1982.703,"body":"and say, Oh, I want to, you know, we"},{"startTime":1982.703,"endTime":1986.853,"body":"really need to do some unit tests, or"},{"startTime":1982.703,"endTime":1986.853,"body":"we really need to fix our CICD pipeline."},{"startTime":1987.183,"endTime":1990.723,"body":"They don't like value or understand that"},{"startTime":1987.183,"endTime":1990.723,"body":"because your predictions in the past."},{"startTime":1990.873,"endTime":1994.193,"body":"About how that predicted the features"},{"startTime":1990.873,"endTime":1994.193,"body":"they wanted to ship was wrong."},{"startTime":1994.563,"endTime":1999.203,"body":"And so it's about fixing your ability to"},{"startTime":1994.563,"endTime":1999.203,"body":"be accurate so you can build that trust."},{"startTime":2000.181,"endTime":2001.461,"body":"Yeah, that's, that's exactly right."},{"startTime":2001.591,"endTime":2006.471,"body":"when you slow down, you often have to"},{"startTime":2001.591,"endTime":2006.471,"body":"come up to a mode where, because you're"},{"startTime":2006.471,"endTime":2009.041,"body":"going to take longer to do certain"},{"startTime":2006.471,"endTime":2009.041,"body":"things , you're going to be able to"},{"startTime":2009.041,"endTime":2011.541,"body":"get better velocity in the long run."},{"startTime":2012.011,"endTime":2014.511,"body":"you're gonna have to do less"},{"startTime":2012.011,"endTime":2014.511,"body":"things, but hopefully as you do"},{"startTime":2014.511,"endTime":2018.351,"body":"these less things, you can go a"},{"startTime":2014.511,"endTime":2018.351,"body":"little bit faster for each of them."},{"startTime":2018.853,"endTime":2020.663,"body":"Yeah, and that resets really tough."},{"startTime":2020.793,"endTime":2024.703,"body":"And it's not convenient either, which"},{"startTime":2020.793,"endTime":2024.703,"body":"kind of brings me to some more things I"},{"startTime":2024.703,"endTime":2028.093,"body":"want to learn about the companies you're"},{"startTime":2024.703,"endTime":2028.093,"body":"exposed to and what you see them do."},{"startTime":2028.093,"endTime":2032.033,"body":"And you have like a large surface"},{"startTime":2028.093,"endTime":2032.033,"body":"area on all sorts of different"},{"startTime":2032.033,"endTime":2035.033,"body":"size teams that have very unique"},{"startTime":2032.033,"endTime":2035.033,"body":"problems when they bring you in."},{"startTime":2035.523,"endTime":2038.793,"body":"And so when you come into these teams,"},{"startTime":2035.523,"endTime":2038.793,"body":"you know, and you see something that's"},{"startTime":2038.793,"endTime":2043.623,"body":"good or bad, what is like a bad habit in"},{"startTime":2038.793,"endTime":2043.623,"body":"engineering that you love to call out,"},{"startTime":2043.763,"endTime":2045.093,"body":"like maybe when you're first on the scene."},{"startTime":2045.781,"endTime":2049.671,"body":"Yeah, the most common one that I see"},{"startTime":2045.781,"endTime":2049.671,"body":"is teams are trying to do way too much."},{"startTime":2049.991,"endTime":2051.121,"body":"Like, way too much."},{"startTime":2051.191,"endTime":2055.676,"body":"so you stuff like, 30 items"},{"startTime":2051.191,"endTime":2055.676,"body":"in a sprint, just in case you"},{"startTime":2055.676,"endTime":2057.486,"body":"can get to the 30th, right?"},{"startTime":2057.716,"endTime":2061.396,"body":"And then you're in the sprint"},{"startTime":2057.716,"endTime":2061.396,"body":"and you finish 5, and you move"},{"startTime":2061.406,"endTime":2063.076,"body":"the other 25 back in there."},{"startTime":2063.526,"endTime":2063.816,"body":"and"},{"startTime":2063.823,"endTime":2065.013,"body":"Rolling the boulder."},{"startTime":2065.023,"endTime":2067.203,"body":"It's like the very"},{"startTime":2065.023,"endTime":2067.203,"body":"Sisyphus moment for us all."},{"startTime":2067.243,"endTime":2068.033,"body":"That's relatable."},{"startTime":2068.063,"endTime":2069.863,"body":"I push my task back"},{"startTime":2068.063,"endTime":2069.863,"body":"like that all the time."},{"startTime":2071.236,"endTime":2072.216,"body":"and this happens, right?"},{"startTime":2072.216,"endTime":2075.21,"body":"Because you go in in the planning meeting"},{"startTime":2072.216,"endTime":2075.21,"body":", your business stakeholders, and they"},{"startTime":2075.21,"endTime":2077.14,"body":"really want these 30 things done, right?"},{"startTime":2077.17,"endTime":2078.24,"body":"And I understand that."},{"startTime":2078.647,"endTime":2080.697,"body":"We laugh a little bit,"},{"startTime":2078.647,"endTime":2080.697,"body":"but I think this is in,"},{"startTime":2081.007,"endTime":2083.167,"body":"um, this is, this is serious, right?"},{"startTime":2083.167,"endTime":2085.327,"body":"Cause the business depends on"},{"startTime":2083.167,"endTime":2085.327,"body":"these 30 things getting done."},{"startTime":2085.757,"endTime":2088.697,"body":"And yet we keep doing this"},{"startTime":2085.757,"endTime":2088.697,"body":"silliness of moving around."},{"startTime":2088.707,"endTime":2092.957,"body":"So I like to go in and sort of"},{"startTime":2088.707,"endTime":2092.957,"body":"explain that there is a hidden cost"},{"startTime":2092.977,"endTime":2094.796,"body":"in having this, uh, WIP, right?"},{"startTime":2094.796,"endTime":2095.786,"body":"Work in process."},{"startTime":2096.206,"endTime":2099.006,"body":"and by the way, some really wise"},{"startTime":2096.206,"endTime":2099.006,"body":"person, uh, Drew told me this."},{"startTime":2100.006,"endTime":2102.626,"body":"It's not work in progress,"},{"startTime":2100.006,"endTime":2102.626,"body":"because if it was progressing,"},{"startTime":2102.626,"endTime":2103.576,"body":"we wouldn't be talking about it."},{"startTime":2103.576,"endTime":2104.356,"body":"It's work in process."},{"startTime":2104.356,"endTime":2106.086,"body":"It's in the process, but"},{"startTime":2104.356,"endTime":2106.086,"body":"nothing's happening to it."},{"startTime":2106.436,"endTime":2106.676,"body":"Because we"},{"startTime":2106.676,"endTime":2108.466,"body":"put these 30 items, and"},{"startTime":2106.676,"endTime":2108.466,"body":"they're just sitting there."},{"startTime":2109.168,"endTime":2112.868,"body":"These items have a cost, because we"},{"startTime":2109.168,"endTime":2112.868,"body":"will spend a little time on them."},{"startTime":2112.878,"endTime":2114.328,"body":"We will spend a little"},{"startTime":2112.878,"endTime":2114.328,"body":"time looking at them."},{"startTime":2114.688,"endTime":2117.188,"body":"Same thing as work in"},{"startTime":2114.688,"endTime":2117.188,"body":"process in a factory, right?"},{"startTime":2117.188,"endTime":2118.098,"body":"You'll trip over it."},{"startTime":2118.208,"endTime":2119.038,"body":"It will go rusty."},{"startTime":2119.038,"endTime":2120.308,"body":"You will misplace it."},{"startTime":2120.868,"endTime":2124.023,"body":"And at the end of the day, if I"},{"startTime":2120.868,"endTime":2124.023,"body":"put these 30 items in, I worked"},{"startTime":2124.023,"endTime":2126.523,"body":"on two, I shipped the one, but"},{"startTime":2124.023,"endTime":2126.523,"body":"the other one I didn't work on."},{"startTime":2126.523,"endTime":2127.033,"body":"Well, guess what?"},{"startTime":2127.043,"endTime":2128.303,"body":"The priorities next week are different."},{"startTime":2128.303,"endTime":2130.913,"body":"So the one that I worked on and it"},{"startTime":2128.303,"endTime":2130.913,"body":"didn't finish it, it's not going to get"},{"startTime":2130.913,"endTime":2132.293,"body":"shipped and that work was thrown away."},{"startTime":2132.795,"endTime":2137.125,"body":"a lot of teams kind of advise, like"},{"startTime":2132.795,"endTime":2137.125,"body":"we just drop the sprint model, right?"},{"startTime":2137.125,"endTime":2139.945,"body":"The sprint model was useful 20 years"},{"startTime":2137.125,"endTime":2139.945,"body":"ago when we're doing six months releases"},{"startTime":2139.965,"endTime":2142.422,"body":"and doing one week release or two"},{"startTime":2139.965,"endTime":2142.422,"body":"week releases was earth shattering."},{"startTime":2142.752,"endTime":2145.802,"body":"But now it's more like, I think"},{"startTime":2142.752,"endTime":2145.802,"body":"most teams are selling better"},{"startTime":2145.802,"endTime":2146.672,"body":"with like a Kanban model."},{"startTime":2146.972,"endTime":2148.432,"body":"We'll pick things off the pile."},{"startTime":2148.757,"endTime":2151.497,"body":"We will work on them, ship"},{"startTime":2148.757,"endTime":2151.497,"body":"them, make sure they're good."},{"startTime":2151.497,"endTime":2152.897,"body":"Then we go pick something"},{"startTime":2151.497,"endTime":2152.897,"body":"else off the pile."},{"startTime":2152.927,"endTime":2154.817,"body":"And that makes the business side uneasy."},{"startTime":2154.817,"endTime":2158.497,"body":"But when you show that because you're"},{"startTime":2154.817,"endTime":2158.497,"body":"not distracted, you can pick something"},{"startTime":2158.497,"endTime":2160.907,"body":"off the pile and get it done quickly."},{"startTime":2162.147,"endTime":2165.287,"body":"That also enables you to be agile"},{"startTime":2162.147,"endTime":2165.287,"body":"with agile with a small E for me."},{"startTime":2165.297,"endTime":2168.117,"body":"It was, Oh, if I say agile, it's"},{"startTime":2165.297,"endTime":2168.117,"body":"always with a small E. because"},{"startTime":2168.177,"endTime":2171.157,"body":"when the business has decided they"},{"startTime":2168.177,"endTime":2171.157,"body":"want to do something else, then you"},{"startTime":2171.167,"endTime":2172.797,"body":"haven't spent time on doing anything."},{"startTime":2172.797,"endTime":2174.517,"body":"You can just grab the next"},{"startTime":2172.797,"endTime":2174.517,"body":"item off the pile, whatever"},{"startTime":2174.517,"endTime":2175.647,"body":"they decided the next item is."},{"startTime":2176.082,"endTime":2178.822,"body":"And now you're really being agile with a"},{"startTime":2176.082,"endTime":2178.822,"body":"small a, now you're really being nimble."},{"startTime":2178.832,"endTime":2182.232,"body":"So that's one of the first things"},{"startTime":2178.832,"endTime":2182.232,"body":"that I like to go grab and look."},{"startTime":2182.262,"endTime":2184.902,"body":"Can we do more by doing"},{"startTime":2182.262,"endTime":2184.902,"body":"less to begin with?"},{"startTime":2185.504,"endTime":2187.054,"body":"Right, so they're chomping at the bit."},{"startTime":2187.064,"endTime":2188.894,"body":"They have that 30 ticket sprint."},{"startTime":2188.904,"endTime":2190.744,"body":"They're going to get as much"},{"startTime":2188.904,"endTime":2190.744,"body":"of that done as they can."},{"startTime":2190.744,"endTime":2191.774,"body":"They get five, right?"},{"startTime":2191.774,"endTime":2195.634,"body":"So the teams are overplanning"},{"startTime":2191.774,"endTime":2195.634,"body":"and they're underdelivering."},{"startTime":2196.004,"endTime":2198.284,"body":"if you then pause, hit the reset."},{"startTime":2198.339,"endTime":2199.179,"body":"Scale it back."},{"startTime":2199.229,"endTime":2201.369,"body":"And, you know, maybe you're just"},{"startTime":2199.229,"endTime":2201.369,"body":"going to pick up the two or three"},{"startTime":2201.369,"endTime":2203.929,"body":"things, or four things are going"},{"startTime":2201.369,"endTime":2203.929,"body":"to actually get done this week."},{"startTime":2204.372,"endTime":2207.672,"body":"What do you think is the, like, a"},{"startTime":2204.372,"endTime":2207.672,"body":"mistake that you see people do when"},{"startTime":2207.672,"endTime":2211.222,"body":"they're in that state, and then"},{"startTime":2207.672,"endTime":2211.222,"body":"they try to then speed back up?"},{"startTime":2211.462,"endTime":2214.092,"body":"You know, they're used to"},{"startTime":2211.462,"endTime":2214.092,"body":"doing those 30 ticket sprints."},{"startTime":2214.112,"endTime":2216.472,"body":"It's the instinct there is, it's palpable."},{"startTime":2217.271,"endTime":2219.501,"body":"the speed versus delivery is"},{"startTime":2217.271,"endTime":2219.501,"body":"an interesting one, right?"},{"startTime":2219.501,"endTime":2223.661,"body":"I think a lot of people confuse,"},{"startTime":2219.501,"endTime":2223.661,"body":"they think the trade off is I"},{"startTime":2223.661,"endTime":2225.901,"body":"either get speed or I get quality."},{"startTime":2226.671,"endTime":2229.011,"body":"And I don't think that's"},{"startTime":2226.671,"endTime":2229.011,"body":"necessarily true, right?"},{"startTime":2229.011,"endTime":2231.701,"body":"It could be that if you're going too"},{"startTime":2229.011,"endTime":2231.701,"body":"fast and you don't have the process in"},{"startTime":2231.701,"endTime":2233.121,"body":"place, your quality is going to suffer."},{"startTime":2233.861,"endTime":2238.611,"body":"But the idea is to move the tradeoff curve"},{"startTime":2233.861,"endTime":2238.611,"body":"where you can move fast and have quality."},{"startTime":2239.071,"endTime":2243.111,"body":"The problem with slowing down for quality,"},{"startTime":2239.071,"endTime":2243.111,"body":"the most typical thing you see for slowing"},{"startTime":2243.111,"endTime":2246.411,"body":"down for quality, is we're going to have"},{"startTime":2243.111,"endTime":2246.411,"body":"a thorough regression test done by hand."},{"startTime":2246.831,"endTime":2250.071,"body":"At the end of this release to make sure"},{"startTime":2246.831,"endTime":2250.071,"body":"that what we're putting out is not crap."},{"startTime":2250.571,"endTime":2251.851,"body":"And you usually find out two things."},{"startTime":2251.891,"endTime":2254.031,"body":"You're not as good as you think"},{"startTime":2251.891,"endTime":2254.031,"body":"you are in finding these mistakes."},{"startTime":2254.031,"endTime":2255.891,"body":"So you're probably going to"},{"startTime":2254.031,"endTime":2255.891,"body":"put them in production anyway."},{"startTime":2256.511,"endTime":2259.151,"body":"And your customer is going to"},{"startTime":2256.511,"endTime":2259.151,"body":"have to sit with that bug for"},{"startTime":2259.161,"endTime":2263.131,"body":"all this time that you're doing"},{"startTime":2259.161,"endTime":2263.131,"body":"your thorough QA analysis, right?"},{"startTime":2263.548,"endTime":2267.108,"body":"so if you had some better way of having"},{"startTime":2263.548,"endTime":2267.108,"body":"more automated testing that actually"},{"startTime":2267.108,"endTime":2271.538,"body":"finds the bugs better than people do,"},{"startTime":2267.108,"endTime":2271.538,"body":"then you can become again, more nimble"},{"startTime":2271.538,"endTime":2274.598,"body":"because when you find the bug, you can"},{"startTime":2271.538,"endTime":2274.598,"body":"turn it around and not have to wait"},{"startTime":2274.598,"endTime":2278.008,"body":"for five days for a long QA regression,"},{"startTime":2274.598,"endTime":2278.008,"body":"and then you can ship it again."},{"startTime":2278.468,"endTime":2282.653,"body":"So the thing that I try to help teams"},{"startTime":2278.468,"endTime":2282.653,"body":"here is Start thinking these, not as a"},{"startTime":2282.653,"endTime":2285.883,"body":"trade off, but how can you get both of"},{"startTime":2282.653,"endTime":2285.883,"body":"them at the same time and start making the"},{"startTime":2285.883,"endTime":2288.253,"body":"changes to your team to get in that space."},{"startTime":2288.303,"endTime":2289.223,"body":"It's not easy."},{"startTime":2289.583,"endTime":2290.193,"body":"It is hard."},{"startTime":2290.193,"endTime":2292.373,"body":"It takes some, you know, figuring"},{"startTime":2290.193,"endTime":2292.373,"body":"out, it takes some analysis,"},{"startTime":2292.383,"endTime":2293.633,"body":"like, where were my bugs?"},{"startTime":2293.873,"endTime":2294.793,"body":"Where are my bugs coming from?"},{"startTime":2294.803,"endTime":2295.723,"body":"Why are we making those bugs?"},{"startTime":2295.723,"endTime":2298.733,"body":"And doing this analysis and then"},{"startTime":2295.723,"endTime":2298.733,"body":"jumping back and doing the process"},{"startTime":2298.733,"endTime":2300.273,"body":"changes necessary to do that."},{"startTime":2300.814,"endTime":2305.254,"body":"And let's talk about that need for"},{"startTime":2300.814,"endTime":2305.254,"body":"speed, that instinct to go fast."},{"startTime":2305.254,"endTime":2308.364,"body":"And at the beginning, I introduced"},{"startTime":2305.254,"endTime":2308.364,"body":"this by saying that when teams"},{"startTime":2308.364,"endTime":2309.834,"body":"are happy, they ship faster."},{"startTime":2309.854,"endTime":2312.874,"body":"And this is something that we see"},{"startTime":2309.854,"endTime":2312.874,"body":"and hear all the time on the show."},{"startTime":2313.174,"endTime":2317.204,"body":"We recently partnered with Luca Rossi"},{"startTime":2313.174,"endTime":2317.204,"body":"of the refactoring engineering blog"},{"startTime":2317.204,"endTime":2321.804,"body":"and podcast, and we did a survey with"},{"startTime":2317.204,"endTime":2321.804,"body":"both of our communities, learning about"},{"startTime":2321.864,"endTime":2325.304,"body":"their environments where they worked"},{"startTime":2321.864,"endTime":2325.304,"body":"and how that impacted the perceptions."},{"startTime":2325.444,"endTime":2328.704,"body":"of engineering leaders by their"},{"startTime":2325.444,"endTime":2328.704,"body":"non technical stakeholders, as well"},{"startTime":2328.704,"endTime":2332.074,"body":"as how happy the teams were and"},{"startTime":2328.704,"endTime":2332.074,"body":"how fast they could ship features."},{"startTime":2332.104,"endTime":2336.134,"body":"And what we found is that all three"},{"startTime":2332.104,"endTime":2336.134,"body":"were extremely tightly correlated."},{"startTime":2336.154,"endTime":2337.174,"body":"They're a flywheel."},{"startTime":2337.434,"endTime":2340.814,"body":"There's, if you're a team that's"},{"startTime":2337.434,"endTime":2340.814,"body":"well regarded by leadership, you"},{"startTime":2340.814,"endTime":2344.024,"body":"probably are shipping fast and you're"},{"startTime":2340.814,"endTime":2344.024,"body":"probably happy with your practices."},{"startTime":2344.264,"endTime":2347.324,"body":"And if all the opposite are true,"},{"startTime":2344.264,"endTime":2347.324,"body":"like you're not happy with how you're"},{"startTime":2347.324,"endTime":2350.664,"body":"working, you're not shipping very"},{"startTime":2347.324,"endTime":2350.664,"body":"quickly, you're not well regarded"},{"startTime":2350.664,"endTime":2353.044,"body":"by the teams, it becomes very hard."},{"startTime":2353.064,"endTime":2356.264,"body":"to start because that flywheel"},{"startTime":2353.064,"endTime":2356.264,"body":"is working against you."},{"startTime":2356.724,"endTime":2360.814,"body":"How would you recommend a team that's in"},{"startTime":2356.724,"endTime":2360.814,"body":"that position start making those changes?"},{"startTime":2361.239,"endTime":2361.979,"body":"Uh, slowly."},{"startTime":2362.511,"endTime":2363.171,"body":"Slowly."},{"startTime":2363.689,"endTime":2364.559,"body":"yeah, there's a lot."},{"startTime":2364.982,"endTime":2369.582,"body":"Usually a team will have a bottleneck"},{"startTime":2364.982,"endTime":2369.582,"body":"that controls, what is going wrong."},{"startTime":2370.412,"endTime":2374.142,"body":"And oftentimes a team may be, that is"},{"startTime":2370.412,"endTime":2374.142,"body":"struggling, you'd be scrambling and"},{"startTime":2374.142,"endTime":2375.522,"body":"trying to fix too many things at once."},{"startTime":2375.522,"endTime":2377.582,"body":"So, so think of like, just,"},{"startTime":2375.522,"endTime":2377.582,"body":"just to illustrate the point,"},{"startTime":2377.602,"endTime":2378.722,"body":"think of a factory, right?"},{"startTime":2379.392,"endTime":2381.822,"body":"Software is more complicated than"},{"startTime":2379.392,"endTime":2381.822,"body":"a factory, so we'll make this a"},{"startTime":2381.822,"endTime":2382.762,"body":"bit more complicated in a second."},{"startTime":2382.762,"endTime":2385.912,"body":"But if you have like a sequence of"},{"startTime":2382.762,"endTime":2385.912,"body":"machines that makes a widget, and the"},{"startTime":2385.912,"endTime":2389.052,"body":"bottleneck is somewhere in the middle,"},{"startTime":2385.912,"endTime":2389.052,"body":"if you improve to the left of the"},{"startTime":2389.052,"endTime":2392.092,"body":"bottleneck, you're going to jam that"},{"startTime":2389.052,"endTime":2392.092,"body":"machine and it's going to be overloaded."},{"startTime":2392.092,"endTime":2395.172,"body":"And if you improve to the right"},{"startTime":2392.092,"endTime":2395.172,"body":"of that machine, they're going to"},{"startTime":2395.172,"endTime":2397.732,"body":"be starved for work, because the"},{"startTime":2395.172,"endTime":2397.732,"body":"thing before it is the bottleneck."},{"startTime":2397.762,"endTime":2402.012,"body":"Now, in software, this is a bit more"},{"startTime":2397.762,"endTime":2402.012,"body":"of a web than a linear thing, but it's"},{"startTime":2402.012,"endTime":2405.522,"body":"generally true that there's one thing"},{"startTime":2402.012,"endTime":2405.522,"body":"somewhere that is constraining you."},{"startTime":2405.812,"endTime":2408.112,"body":"And when you fix that one, then the"},{"startTime":2405.812,"endTime":2408.112,"body":"bottleneck moves somewhere else."},{"startTime":2408.122,"endTime":2409.982,"body":"And when you fix that, then"},{"startTime":2408.122,"endTime":2409.982,"body":"again, it moves somewhere else."},{"startTime":2410.412,"endTime":2414.902,"body":"So a team that is unsure where to start"},{"startTime":2410.412,"endTime":2414.902,"body":"should spend some time thinking of where"},{"startTime":2414.902,"endTime":2419.202,"body":"is my bottleneck, what is controlling"},{"startTime":2414.902,"endTime":2419.202,"body":"my speed and start fixing that."},{"startTime":2419.512,"endTime":2422.422,"body":"the risk is if you try to do too"},{"startTime":2419.512,"endTime":2422.422,"body":"many things, then you lose focus."},{"startTime":2422.422,"endTime":2424.932,"body":"Cause you're trying to fix too many"},{"startTime":2422.422,"endTime":2424.932,"body":"things and it's hard, to do that."},{"startTime":2425.162,"endTime":2426.722,"body":"But also it's hard to see the results."},{"startTime":2426.722,"endTime":2430.427,"body":"Like if I made a change here and a change"},{"startTime":2426.722,"endTime":2430.427,"body":"there, Did it work or did it not work?"},{"startTime":2430.437,"endTime":2433.587,"body":"which of these changes was the one"},{"startTime":2430.437,"endTime":2433.587,"body":"that, fixed the problem or not?"},{"startTime":2433.977,"endTime":2437.157,"body":"So I usually advise like trying to think"},{"startTime":2433.977,"endTime":2437.157,"body":"of this in terms of bottlenecks, trying"},{"startTime":2437.157,"endTime":2440.997,"body":"to figure out where your bottleneck"},{"startTime":2437.157,"endTime":2440.997,"body":"is at and fix one thing at a time."},{"startTime":2441.441,"endTime":2444.421,"body":"also going back to sort of the"},{"startTime":2441.441,"endTime":2444.421,"body":"work in process, uh, comment."},{"startTime":2444.848,"endTime":2447.018,"body":"fully agree with you on the"},{"startTime":2444.848,"endTime":2447.018,"body":"correlation between all these"},{"startTime":2447.018,"endTime":2447.898,"body":"things and happiness, right?"},{"startTime":2448.178,"endTime":2452.278,"body":"can take a fairly straightforward view"},{"startTime":2448.178,"endTime":2452.278,"body":"of this of, as an engineer, if I have one"},{"startTime":2452.278,"endTime":2456.378,"body":"thing to do, and I can do it well, and"},{"startTime":2452.278,"endTime":2456.378,"body":"I'm not interrupted by six other things"},{"startTime":2456.378,"endTime":2460.678,"body":"that hit my plate today, I feel content,"},{"startTime":2456.378,"endTime":2460.678,"body":"it hits the users, I get all my neurons"},{"startTime":2460.688,"endTime":2464.738,"body":"firing happily because I see the value"},{"startTime":2460.688,"endTime":2464.738,"body":"of my work being deployed to production."},{"startTime":2465.078,"endTime":2467.648,"body":"And then you contrast this with,"},{"startTime":2465.078,"endTime":2467.648,"body":"I'm working on something, someone"},{"startTime":2467.658,"endTime":2470.698,"body":"interrupts me, I have to jump and work"},{"startTime":2467.658,"endTime":2470.698,"body":"on something else, now I'm annoyed"},{"startTime":2470.698,"endTime":2474.828,"body":"because I lost my train of thought for"},{"startTime":2470.698,"endTime":2474.828,"body":"where I was at before, then I ship my"},{"startTime":2474.828,"endTime":2478.158,"body":"feature because I would love my con, I"},{"startTime":2474.828,"endTime":2478.158,"body":"lost my context, I now shipped a bug."},{"startTime":2478.408,"endTime":2481.058,"body":"So then someone else comes and they're"},{"startTime":2478.408,"endTime":2481.058,"body":"pissed off because now I have, they have"},{"startTime":2481.058,"endTime":2484.608,"body":"a bug in my thing and I feel bad because"},{"startTime":2481.058,"endTime":2484.608,"body":"I made a bug and now the customer's upset"},{"startTime":2484.959,"endTime":2485.568,"body":"and, and, you know,"},{"startTime":2485.62,"endTime":2486.4,"body":"your morale."},{"startTime":2486.41,"endTime":2487.51,"body":"Everything's going wrong."},{"startTime":2487.913,"endTime":2488.783,"body":"all goes downhill, right?"},{"startTime":2488.783,"endTime":2492.543,"body":"You know, the old thing that, the beatings"},{"startTime":2488.783,"endTime":2492.543,"body":"will continue until morale improves."},{"startTime":2492.543,"endTime":2493.603,"body":"It's kind of like the same thing."},{"startTime":2493.603,"endTime":2494.173,"body":"Like the beatings will"},{"startTime":2494.173,"endTime":2495.573,"body":"continue until velocity improves."},{"startTime":2495.643,"endTime":2497.787,"body":"Well, it's not going to so start slowly."},{"startTime":2497.857,"endTime":2499.187,"body":"talk to the stakeholders, right?"},{"startTime":2499.207,"endTime":2501.547,"body":"Understand where you're coming"},{"startTime":2499.207,"endTime":2501.547,"body":"from, like get a line, right?"},{"startTime":2501.547,"endTime":2502.727,"body":"You're all in line on"},{"startTime":2501.547,"endTime":2502.727,"body":"the same thing, right?"},{"startTime":2502.727,"endTime":2506.587,"body":"You all want to ship features for"},{"startTime":2502.727,"endTime":2506.587,"body":"the customers in a successful way."},{"startTime":2506.932,"endTime":2510.582,"body":"And show to all the stakeholders sort"},{"startTime":2506.932,"endTime":2510.582,"body":"of from first principles of how this"},{"startTime":2510.582,"endTime":2512.702,"body":"works and have these discussions."},{"startTime":2513.012,"endTime":2514.542,"body":"I've seen teams that"},{"startTime":2513.012,"endTime":2514.542,"body":"try to hide this, right?"},{"startTime":2514.552,"endTime":2517.872,"body":"It's like, Oh, well, we'll tell"},{"startTime":2514.552,"endTime":2517.872,"body":"the business that we're doing all"},{"startTime":2517.872,"endTime":2520.312,"body":"features, but we're going to go fix"},{"startTime":2517.872,"endTime":2520.312,"body":"our technical debt behind the scenes."},{"startTime":2520.619,"endTime":2522.049,"body":"Yeah, that's common."},{"startTime":2522.122,"endTime":2525.862,"body":"a few times, but at some point they're"},{"startTime":2522.122,"endTime":2525.862,"body":"going to start shoving more stuff."},{"startTime":2525.892,"endTime":2528.172,"body":"And at some point the team"},{"startTime":2525.892,"endTime":2528.172,"body":"members, you know, maybe the"},{"startTime":2528.172,"endTime":2529.582,"body":"leader is trying to do this."},{"startTime":2530.064,"endTime":2532.844,"body":"but the team members keep hearing from"},{"startTime":2530.064,"endTime":2532.844,"body":"the business features, features, features."},{"startTime":2532.844,"endTime":2534.684,"body":"So they're all conditioned"},{"startTime":2532.844,"endTime":2534.684,"body":"to work on features."},{"startTime":2534.684,"endTime":2536.534,"body":"They all think the features"},{"startTime":2534.684,"endTime":2536.534,"body":"are the most important thing."},{"startTime":2536.854,"endTime":2539.154,"body":"And that usually falls apart, eventually."},{"startTime":2540.026,"endTime":2543.336,"body":"So if you're an engineering leader"},{"startTime":2540.026,"endTime":2543.336,"body":"who's trying to connect all the pieces"},{"startTime":2543.486,"endTime":2548.646,"body":"of this conversation to foster that"},{"startTime":2543.486,"endTime":2548.646,"body":"positive team culture, you know, there's"},{"startTime":2548.646,"endTime":2550.046,"body":"a lot of different places to start."},{"startTime":2550.096,"endTime":2553.656,"body":"It sounds like from your perspective,"},{"startTime":2550.096,"endTime":2553.656,"body":"it's about starting on that iteration,"},{"startTime":2553.666,"endTime":2556.576,"body":"it's about finding the bottlenecks"},{"startTime":2553.666,"endTime":2556.576,"body":"that way you can speed up, but do"},{"startTime":2556.576,"endTime":2559.286,"body":"so in a sustainable and even way."},{"startTime":2559.726,"endTime":2562.426,"body":"are there other things that you"},{"startTime":2559.726,"endTime":2562.426,"body":"think that they should look for or be"},{"startTime":2562.426,"endTime":2564.746,"body":"tracking even, like on a metric side?"},{"startTime":2566.044,"endTime":2569.924,"body":"I think we've covered sort of the"},{"startTime":2566.044,"endTime":2569.924,"body":"way to think about it and sort of"},{"startTime":2570.014,"endTime":2571.954,"body":"the route by which to go through."},{"startTime":2572.254,"endTime":2575.994,"body":"What I would stress for this point"},{"startTime":2572.254,"endTime":2575.994,"body":"is that you as the leader, you kind"},{"startTime":2575.994,"endTime":2579.794,"body":"of stuck as the interface between"},{"startTime":2575.994,"endTime":2579.794,"body":"your team and the outside world."},{"startTime":2580.134,"endTime":2581.554,"body":"And you have to be careful."},{"startTime":2581.879,"endTime":2584.909,"body":"and Diligent in managing both"},{"startTime":2581.879,"endTime":2584.909,"body":"sides of that equation, right?"},{"startTime":2584.909,"endTime":2587.919,"body":"You have to do all the good"},{"startTime":2584.909,"endTime":2587.919,"body":"stuff we talked about to explain"},{"startTime":2587.919,"endTime":2591.019,"body":"how the engineering team,"},{"startTime":2587.919,"endTime":2591.019,"body":"works, to the outside world."},{"startTime":2591.339,"endTime":2594.669,"body":"and then you have to explain"},{"startTime":2591.339,"endTime":2594.669,"body":"to the engineering team what is"},{"startTime":2594.669,"endTime":2598.559,"body":"important and how they should be"},{"startTime":2594.669,"endTime":2598.559,"body":"rewarded and how to do that, right?"},{"startTime":2598.559,"endTime":2601.349,"body":"So there's not any sort of disconnects"},{"startTime":2598.559,"endTime":2601.349,"body":"and you have like the feature"},{"startTime":2601.349,"endTime":2602.979,"body":"trained team or anything like that."},{"startTime":2603.804,"endTime":2606.214,"body":"And, uh, as with anything with"},{"startTime":2603.804,"endTime":2606.214,"body":"leadership, it's communication,"},{"startTime":2606.214,"endTime":2607.354,"body":"communication, communication, right?"},{"startTime":2607.364,"endTime":2610.064,"body":"You gotta say it like a hundred"},{"startTime":2607.364,"endTime":2610.064,"body":"times, and you gotta say it all"},{"startTime":2610.064,"endTime":2611.48,"body":"over again, because what is it?"},{"startTime":2611.53,"endTime":2614.739,"body":"It's, um, Culture beats strategy every"},{"startTime":2614.739,"endTime":2615.069,"body":"day."},{"startTime":2615.336,"endTime":2615.74,"body":"CultureEatsStrategyForBreakfast."},{"startTime":2615.74,"endTime":2616.953,"body":"Yes, that's the"},{"startTime":2617.448,"endTime":2617.698,"body":"so"},{"startTime":2617.738,"endTime":2621.728,"body":"if your culture is developed in a certain"},{"startTime":2617.738,"endTime":2621.728,"body":"way, you can keep making any strategy you"},{"startTime":2621.728,"endTime":2624.508,"body":"want, just, repeating it as many times"},{"startTime":2621.728,"endTime":2624.508,"body":"as you want, but until you actually, get"},{"startTime":2624.508,"endTime":2628.818,"body":"people doing it and that turns out to"},{"startTime":2624.508,"endTime":2628.818,"body":"be the culture of the place, then really"},{"startTime":2628.818,"endTime":2630.338,"body":"very few things are going to happen."},{"startTime":2633.87,"endTime":2638.12,"body":"you and your organization, and ultimately"},{"startTime":2633.87,"endTime":2638.12,"body":"driving towards engineering happiness."},{"startTime":2638.17,"endTime":2640.46,"body":"do you see a correlation in the"},{"startTime":2638.17,"endTime":2640.46,"body":"teams that you work with when"},{"startTime":2640.46,"endTime":2643.79,"body":"engineers are happy with everything's"},{"startTime":2640.46,"endTime":2643.79,"body":"going well for both sides?"},{"startTime":2644.313,"endTime":2644.653,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2644.693,"endTime":2645.673,"body":"I mean, it's like night and day."},{"startTime":2645.683,"endTime":2648.343,"body":"I think most engineers went into"},{"startTime":2645.683,"endTime":2648.343,"body":"engineering because they enjoy the"},{"startTime":2648.343,"endTime":2649.793,"body":"craft of building things and they"},{"startTime":2649.793,"endTime":2650.973,"body":"enjoy building things right."},{"startTime":2650.983,"endTime":2653.443,"body":"No one came out and went, say,"},{"startTime":2650.983,"endTime":2653.443,"body":"I want to be a software engineer"},{"startTime":2653.463,"endTime":2654.463,"body":"because I want to write crap."},{"startTime":2655.183,"endTime":2657.543,"body":"they all enjoy the process"},{"startTime":2655.183,"endTime":2657.543,"body":"of creating software."},{"startTime":2657.543,"endTime":2659.863,"body":"So it's really sad to go to"},{"startTime":2657.543,"endTime":2659.863,"body":"places where you see people burnt"},{"startTime":2659.873,"endTime":2662.243,"body":"out and people so, so unhappy."},{"startTime":2662.243,"endTime":2666.383,"body":"So when I first went solo and"},{"startTime":2662.243,"endTime":2666.383,"body":"started doing the coaching business,"},{"startTime":2666.668,"endTime":2669.278,"body":"I started off with, you know, what"},{"startTime":2666.668,"endTime":2669.278,"body":"people want, people want efficiency."},{"startTime":2669.278,"endTime":2671.628,"body":"So I went out and like, look, we'll"},{"startTime":2669.278,"endTime":2671.628,"body":"go with engineering efficiency,"},{"startTime":2671.628,"endTime":2672.638,"body":"engineering effectiveness."},{"startTime":2673.048,"endTime":2675.658,"body":"and very quickly I realized, well,"},{"startTime":2673.048,"endTime":2675.658,"body":"no, there's a very important feeling"},{"startTime":2675.658,"endTime":2677.168,"body":"here, which is everyone is frustrated."},{"startTime":2677.688,"endTime":2679.868,"body":"not just the engineering team, but"},{"startTime":2677.688,"endTime":2679.868,"body":"everyone seems to be frustrated."},{"startTime":2679.878,"endTime":2681.218,"body":"So we have to address with this."},{"startTime":2681.298,"endTime":2684.658,"body":"So, so now my pitch is it's effectiveness"},{"startTime":2681.298,"endTime":2684.658,"body":"and happiness and those go together."},{"startTime":2685.001,"endTime":2688.221,"body":"Are there successful habits or"},{"startTime":2685.001,"endTime":2688.221,"body":"practices that you see teams picking"},{"startTime":2688.231,"endTime":2691.561,"body":"up right now that's alleviating"},{"startTime":2688.231,"endTime":2691.561,"body":"these stresses for their teams?"},{"startTime":2692.529,"endTime":2694.435,"body":"there's some stuff that's"},{"startTime":2692.529,"endTime":2694.435,"body":"happening with tooling."},{"startTime":2694.435,"endTime":2697.219,"body":"So, so for example, all"},{"startTime":2694.435,"endTime":2697.219,"body":"the AI coding tools."},{"startTime":2697.619,"endTime":2700.289,"body":"They can make my life easier,"},{"startTime":2697.619,"endTime":2700.289,"body":"Engineer, because I can probably"},{"startTime":2700.289,"endTime":2701.799,"body":"get some stuff done faster."},{"startTime":2702.379,"endTime":2707.329,"body":"but in many ways, some of these tools"},{"startTime":2702.379,"endTime":2707.329,"body":"are sort of patching the symptoms"},{"startTime":2707.359,"endTime":2708.739,"body":"rather than fixing the cause, right?"},{"startTime":2708.739,"endTime":2712.439,"body":"So if I can write some stuff faster, yeah,"},{"startTime":2708.739,"endTime":2712.439,"body":"maybe from the 30 things you put in my"},{"startTime":2712.439,"endTime":2716.639,"body":"sprint, I can get 10 done instead of 5,"},{"startTime":2712.439,"endTime":2716.639,"body":"but the problem is still very much there."},{"startTime":2716.939,"endTime":2721.449,"body":"I've seen some interesting metrics that"},{"startTime":2716.939,"endTime":2721.449,"body":"are coming out, and I, I like metrics."},{"startTime":2721.449,"endTime":2722.259,"body":"I'm very much."},{"startTime":2722.599,"endTime":2724.879,"body":"Uh, and enjoy metrics and seeing them."},{"startTime":2725.213,"endTime":2727.773,"body":"and I think when you see the"},{"startTime":2725.213,"endTime":2727.773,"body":"enlightened places that use metrics,"},{"startTime":2727.803,"endTime":2729.973,"body":"they, they always point out,"},{"startTime":2727.803,"endTime":2729.973,"body":"this is a debugging tool, right?"},{"startTime":2729.993,"endTime":2733.103,"body":"This is not the end all be"},{"startTime":2729.993,"endTime":2733.103,"body":"all like metrics change."},{"startTime":2733.313,"endTime":2733.823,"body":"They're good."},{"startTime":2733.873,"endTime":2736.293,"body":"Like if I'm looking to diagnose"},{"startTime":2733.873,"endTime":2736.293,"body":"something, I want to find, you"},{"startTime":2736.383,"endTime":2737.513,"body":"know, what are the lead times here?"},{"startTime":2737.513,"endTime":2738.823,"body":"what is happening in this area?"},{"startTime":2739.113,"endTime":2742.633,"body":"very much being metrics driven, but when"},{"startTime":2739.113,"endTime":2742.633,"body":"you then make goals or reward people"},{"startTime":2742.633,"endTime":2744.673,"body":"based on metrics, those will change."},{"startTime":2744.953,"endTime":2747.843,"body":"I often say, make metrics that"},{"startTime":2744.953,"endTime":2747.843,"body":"people want to game, right?"},{"startTime":2747.843,"endTime":2749.833,"body":"Because you make a metric because"},{"startTime":2747.843,"endTime":2749.833,"body":"you want to affect behavior."},{"startTime":2750.283,"endTime":2751.763,"body":"And if the question is,"},{"startTime":2750.283,"endTime":2751.763,"body":"well, what if people game it?"},{"startTime":2751.773,"endTime":2752.943,"body":"It's like, well, game it."},{"startTime":2752.953,"endTime":2753.543,"body":"That's what I want."},{"startTime":2753.553,"endTime":2754.673,"body":"I want this metric to move."},{"startTime":2754.683,"endTime":2755.903,"body":"That's why I'm making this metric."},{"startTime":2755.903,"endTime":2756.083,"body":"Now,"},{"startTime":2756.443,"endTime":2758.953,"body":"if people game it in an unsuccessful"},{"startTime":2756.443,"endTime":2758.953,"body":"way, they're not going to go"},{"startTime":2758.953,"endTime":2759.873,"body":"change the metric, but I'm"},{"startTime":2759.874,"endTime":2761.044,"body":"Then just go change it."},{"startTime":2761.064,"endTime":2761.954,"body":"Just change it."},{"startTime":2762.024,"endTime":2762.574,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":2762.598,"endTime":2764.348,"body":"Don't shy away from"},{"startTime":2762.598,"endTime":2764.348,"body":"putting metrics in there."},{"startTime":2764.648,"endTime":2767.318,"body":"there's a lot of activity, um,"},{"startTime":2764.648,"endTime":2767.318,"body":"that is happening right now."},{"startTime":2767.348,"endTime":2770.568,"body":"in terms of these tools that put"},{"startTime":2767.348,"endTime":2770.568,"body":"metrics in terms of, on top of"},{"startTime":2770.598,"endTime":2773.048,"body":"engineering systems, engineers"},{"startTime":2770.598,"endTime":2773.048,"body":"are a little afraid of them."},{"startTime":2773.048,"endTime":2776.358,"body":"So I think businesses need to be very"},{"startTime":2773.048,"endTime":2776.358,"body":"careful to saying we have these because"},{"startTime":2776.358,"endTime":2777.608,"body":"we kind of want to help ourselves."},{"startTime":2777.608,"endTime":2778.458,"body":"We want to help you."},{"startTime":2778.798,"endTime":2782.078,"body":"the instant you start saying, you know, we"},{"startTime":2778.798,"endTime":2782.078,"body":"fired Bob because their metric were low,"},{"startTime":2782.218,"endTime":2785.138,"body":"that's going to be a real problem because"},{"startTime":2782.218,"endTime":2785.138,"body":"then no one's going to pay attention"},{"startTime":2785.138,"endTime":2786.188,"body":"to the metrics or no one's going to,"},{"startTime":2786.464,"endTime":2786.874,"body":"no one's gonna"},{"startTime":2787.048,"endTime":2787.918,"body":"support your metrics."},{"startTime":2787.918,"endTime":2788.598,"body":"They're not going to trust them."},{"startTime":2788.608,"endTime":2789.338,"body":"They're going to game them."},{"startTime":2789.808,"endTime":2794.598,"body":"So I see these tools in general as"},{"startTime":2789.808,"endTime":2794.598,"body":"sort of supporting these processes."},{"startTime":2794.598,"endTime":2797.478,"body":"But I think the beginning comes from"},{"startTime":2794.598,"endTime":2797.478,"body":"changing your philosophy, changing"},{"startTime":2797.488,"endTime":2800.638,"body":"your culture, changing how you approach"},{"startTime":2797.488,"endTime":2800.638,"body":"things and the tools will help you."},{"startTime":2800.638,"endTime":2802.718,"body":"But the tools are not going to"},{"startTime":2800.638,"endTime":2802.718,"body":"always just install it for you."},{"startTime":2802.718,"endTime":2804.398,"body":"You're not going to, I'm"},{"startTime":2802.718,"endTime":2804.398,"body":"going to take this nice tool."},{"startTime":2804.828,"endTime":2806.128,"body":"It's very nice to install it."},{"startTime":2806.128,"endTime":2807.318,"body":"And now my problems are done."},{"startTime":2807.734,"endTime":2811.164,"body":"Precisely, they're tools, you know,"},{"startTime":2807.734,"endTime":2811.164,"body":"you're using them to affect some"},{"startTime":2811.164,"endTime":2813.434,"body":"kind of change or have an end result."},{"startTime":2813.464,"endTime":2814.034,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":2814.044,"endTime":2817.247,"body":"The best teams that you're using"},{"startTime":2814.044,"endTime":2817.247,"body":"metrics, they're using them to"},{"startTime":2817.247,"endTime":2820.917,"body":"track something else, you know,"},{"startTime":2817.247,"endTime":2820.917,"body":"to drive towards another goal."},{"startTime":2820.917,"endTime":2823.397,"body":"It's not metrics for the sake of metrics."},{"startTime":2823.857,"endTime":2826.889,"body":"And when you put them in place,"},{"startTime":2823.857,"endTime":2826.889,"body":"they show the symptoms and"},{"startTime":2826.889,"endTime":2827.969,"body":"they can address the symptoms."},{"startTime":2827.969,"endTime":2830.979,"body":"But oftentimes, in an engineering"},{"startTime":2827.969,"endTime":2830.979,"body":"org, the hardest problems"},{"startTime":2830.979,"endTime":2832.509,"body":"to solve are human problems."},{"startTime":2832.819,"endTime":2836.669,"body":"and so what the automation can do"},{"startTime":2832.819,"endTime":2836.669,"body":"is free you up to be able to address"},{"startTime":2836.669,"endTime":2838.109,"body":"those human, those human issues."},{"startTime":2838.807,"endTime":2842.017,"body":"Yeah, and there's tools you can"},{"startTime":2838.807,"endTime":2842.017,"body":"put in place, that help you for"},{"startTime":2842.017,"endTime":2843.247,"body":"making silly mistakes, right?"},{"startTime":2843.407,"endTime":2844.467,"body":"And these are, like, fantastic."},{"startTime":2844.467,"endTime":2847.457,"body":"Like, we've had, you know, automatic"},{"startTime":2844.467,"endTime":2847.457,"body":"tests in the CICD pipeline, right?"},{"startTime":2847.457,"endTime":2848.867,"body":"These are no brainer tools"},{"startTime":2849.207,"endTime":2851.857,"body":"that will help you make, not"},{"startTime":2849.207,"endTime":2851.857,"body":"make mistakes later, right?"},{"startTime":2851.857,"endTime":2853.587,"body":"So, I was working with a team recently."},{"startTime":2854.087,"endTime":2857.157,"body":"that when I started, they didn't"},{"startTime":2854.087,"endTime":2857.157,"body":"have linters, working, right?"},{"startTime":2857.157,"endTime":2860.667,"body":"So we would ship things that would"},{"startTime":2857.157,"endTime":2860.667,"body":"have like the silliest mistakes that"},{"startTime":2860.667,"endTime":2862.017,"body":"the linter would have caught early on."},{"startTime":2862.027,"endTime":2864.707,"body":"So, you know, since then we just,"},{"startTime":2862.027,"endTime":2864.707,"body":"you know, CICD runs a linter."},{"startTime":2864.707,"endTime":2867.917,"body":"If it doesn't think, if it doesn't"},{"startTime":2864.707,"endTime":2867.917,"body":"pass, you may not merge your PR."},{"startTime":2867.917,"endTime":2869.677,"body":"It's such a brain dead thing."},{"startTime":2870.197,"endTime":2872.967,"body":"Um, but you know, caught what"},{"startTime":2870.197,"endTime":2872.967,"body":"was half of the mistakes."},{"startTime":2873.017,"endTime":2875.157,"body":"Uh, happily that team has"},{"startTime":2873.017,"endTime":2875.157,"body":"graduated and now the mistakes"},{"startTime":2875.157,"endTime":2876.217,"body":"get much more sophisticated."},{"startTime":2876.707,"endTime":2878.587,"body":"but that's nice to see"},{"startTime":2876.707,"endTime":2878.587,"body":"sort of that progress."},{"startTime":2879.109,"endTime":2880.539,"body":"Yeah, it's a good problem"},{"startTime":2879.109,"endTime":2880.539,"body":"to have, I suppose."},{"startTime":2880.559,"endTime":2883.369,"body":"You solve the easy problems, and now"},{"startTime":2880.559,"endTime":2883.369,"body":"you've got some bigger ones to solve."},{"startTime":2883.669,"endTime":2886.849,"body":"but it means that you're moving up on, in"},{"startTime":2883.669,"endTime":2886.849,"body":"those steps that we talked about earlier."},{"startTime":2886.889,"endTime":2888.799,"body":"You're moving past that iteration stage."},{"startTime":2889.505,"endTime":2891.105,"body":"that's the constant evolution, right?"},{"startTime":2891.105,"endTime":2894.605,"body":"As of the last 25 years that I've been"},{"startTime":2891.105,"endTime":2894.605,"body":"doing this, the levels of abstraction keep"},{"startTime":2894.615,"endTime":2896.585,"body":"moving up and moving up and moving up."},{"startTime":2896.993,"endTime":2900.563,"body":"I was writing some code for a"},{"startTime":2896.993,"endTime":2900.563,"body":"client the last few days and I"},{"startTime":2900.653,"endTime":2902.613,"body":"mostly didn't write a line of code."},{"startTime":2902.643,"endTime":2905.423,"body":"It was, hey chat, do this, hey"},{"startTime":2902.643,"endTime":2905.423,"body":"chat, do that, hey chat, do this,"},{"startTime":2905.423,"endTime":2906.553,"body":"and it just keeps building it."},{"startTime":2906.963,"endTime":2910.773,"body":"And I can type a sentence, and it"},{"startTime":2906.963,"endTime":2910.773,"body":"gives me like a page of code that I can"},{"startTime":2910.773,"endTime":2912.683,"body":"read much faster than I would type it."},{"startTime":2912.993,"endTime":2916.933,"body":"You have to make some changes and stuff,"},{"startTime":2912.993,"endTime":2916.933,"body":"but the levels of abstraction move up, so"},{"startTime":2916.933,"endTime":2922.143,"body":"hopefully humans can focus on higher layer"},{"startTime":2916.933,"endTime":2922.143,"body":"things than, okay, was this the right"},{"startTime":2922.143,"endTime":2925.873,"body":"little bit here, and is it one equals or"},{"startTime":2922.143,"endTime":2925.873,"body":"two equals that I should be typing here."},{"startTime":2926.27,"endTime":2926.99,"body":"yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":2926.99,"endTime":2929.69,"body":"And you know, you touch on something"},{"startTime":2926.99,"endTime":2929.69,"body":"really interesting about how you use"},{"startTime":2929.69,"endTime":2931.55,"body":"it to, you know, hey chat, what's this?"},{"startTime":2931.55,"endTime":2932.29,"body":"Hey chat, what's that?"},{"startTime":2932.29,"endTime":2933.85,"body":"And you get like that high level view."},{"startTime":2933.85,"endTime":2937.08,"body":"And then maybe you throw some away and"},{"startTime":2933.85,"endTime":2937.08,"body":"you go deeper on some, you know, that's"},{"startTime":2937.08,"endTime":2941.15,"body":"actually a really common way I hear"},{"startTime":2937.08,"endTime":2941.15,"body":"more like high level engineering minds."},{"startTime":2941.21,"endTime":2944.65,"body":"Think about using that tool is like"},{"startTime":2941.21,"endTime":2944.65,"body":"ideate quickly, get the, it's almost"},{"startTime":2944.65,"endTime":2947.44,"body":"like you're having a mini sprint planning"},{"startTime":2944.65,"endTime":2947.44,"body":"with yourself and just kind of getting,"},{"startTime":2947.44,"endTime":2950.74,"body":"throwing a bunch of things at the wall,"},{"startTime":2947.44,"endTime":2950.74,"body":"which is really different from how, newer"},{"startTime":2950.74,"endTime":2955.95,"body":"engineers or like ICs, for example, might"},{"startTime":2950.74,"endTime":2955.95,"body":"use the tool to be more assistant step by"},{"startTime":2955.95,"endTime":2957.53,"body":"step with things that they're producing."},{"startTime":2957.58,"endTime":2961.8,"body":"and so when, uh, this is an interesting"},{"startTime":2957.58,"endTime":2961.8,"body":"perspective, I'd love to get your"},{"startTime":2961.81,"endTime":2964.76,"body":"kind of insight on, Are you saying"},{"startTime":2961.81,"endTime":2964.76,"body":"a certain kind of habit or way that"},{"startTime":2964.9,"endTime":2968.78,"body":"teams adopt a tool like Assistant"},{"startTime":2964.9,"endTime":2968.78,"body":"AI to get their work done right now?"},{"startTime":2969.648,"endTime":2972.478,"body":"I think this massively"},{"startTime":2969.648,"endTime":2972.478,"body":"depends on the company, right?"},{"startTime":2972.478,"endTime":2975.668,"body":"So if you're in a small company,"},{"startTime":2972.478,"endTime":2975.668,"body":"then, you know, one guy uses it and"},{"startTime":2975.668,"endTime":2976.688,"body":"they're like, Oh, this is great."},{"startTime":2976.688,"endTime":2978.678,"body":"And then everyone else grabs"},{"startTime":2976.688,"endTime":2978.678,"body":"it and starts using it."},{"startTime":2978.688,"endTime":2978.898,"body":"And then the"},{"startTime":2979.115,"endTime":2980.415,"body":"And your results may vary."},{"startTime":2980.973,"endTime":2982.113,"body":"Yeah, your results may vary."},{"startTime":2982.393,"endTime":2984.483,"body":"in a bigger company, you might"},{"startTime":2982.393,"endTime":2984.483,"body":"have like some much more thorough"},{"startTime":2984.483,"endTime":2986.523,"body":"analysis before you start doing that."},{"startTime":2987.113,"endTime":2990.133,"body":"this seems to be kind of all over"},{"startTime":2987.113,"endTime":2990.133,"body":"the place, but I want to go back"},{"startTime":2990.133,"endTime":2991.853,"body":"to what you said earlier, because"},{"startTime":2990.133,"endTime":2991.853,"body":"it was kind of interesting point"},{"startTime":2991.863,"endTime":2994.483,"body":"of junior engineers and how this"},{"startTime":2991.863,"endTime":2994.483,"body":"technology is going to affect them."},{"startTime":2994.883,"endTime":2998.343,"body":"And this may be like a little bit of a"},{"startTime":2994.883,"endTime":2998.343,"body":"tangent, but this scares me a little bit."},{"startTime":2998.913,"endTime":3003.178,"body":"because I think a lot of the things"},{"startTime":2998.913,"endTime":3003.178,"body":"that a mid level or senior engineer, you"},{"startTime":3003.178,"endTime":3008.303,"body":"know, I'm not going to sear by how much"},{"startTime":3003.178,"endTime":3008.303,"body":"experience you've had in doing this."},{"startTime":3008.663,"endTime":3010.723,"body":"Not necessarily by"},{"startTime":3008.663,"endTime":3010.723,"body":"actual, you know, years of"},{"startTime":3010.76,"endTime":3011.94,"body":"How battle scarred you are"},{"startTime":3012.073,"endTime":3013.183,"body":"yeah, how battle scarred you are."},{"startTime":3013.643,"endTime":3016.643,"body":"having the benefit of being"},{"startTime":3013.643,"endTime":3016.643,"body":"battle scarred, you kind of"},{"startTime":3016.643,"endTime":3018.293,"body":"know how you would code it."},{"startTime":3018.863,"endTime":3023.183,"body":"And you can like guide the AI to take you"},{"startTime":3018.863,"endTime":3023.183,"body":"like step by step in how you'd want it to"},{"startTime":3023.183,"endTime":3024.443,"body":"structure in the way you want to do it."},{"startTime":3024.443,"endTime":3027.893,"body":"Like if you told the AI like building"},{"startTime":3024.443,"endTime":3027.893,"body":"this whole thing, it would probably fail."},{"startTime":3028.273,"endTime":3029.583,"body":"wouldn't have the ability"},{"startTime":3028.273,"endTime":3029.583,"body":"to go through that."},{"startTime":3029.583,"endTime":3033.003,"body":"So I'm kind of wondering how the more"},{"startTime":3029.583,"endTime":3033.003,"body":"junior engineers are going to start"},{"startTime":3033.113,"endTime":3036.843,"body":"getting into the industry because I"},{"startTime":3033.113,"endTime":3036.843,"body":"don't need a junior engineer to do"},{"startTime":3036.863,"endTime":3039.553,"body":"that thing for me anymore because"},{"startTime":3036.863,"endTime":3039.553,"body":"I can pretty much do it myself."},{"startTime":3040.103,"endTime":3043.763,"body":"so we may have to start changing"},{"startTime":3040.103,"endTime":3043.763,"body":"how we train those folks to"},{"startTime":3043.763,"endTime":3045.003,"body":"slightly different skills."},{"startTime":3045.398,"endTime":3048.028,"body":"Of maybe learning themselves of"},{"startTime":3045.398,"endTime":3048.028,"body":"how some of this coding is done,"},{"startTime":3048.068,"endTime":3052.638,"body":"you know, playing at a different"},{"startTime":3048.068,"endTime":3052.638,"body":"level, with the tools, how they join"},{"startTime":3052.638,"endTime":3054.608,"body":"companies and work inside these teams."},{"startTime":3054.608,"endTime":3057.338,"body":"That's going to be, I think, quite"},{"startTime":3054.608,"endTime":3057.338,"body":"different, for the coming years."},{"startTime":3057.338,"endTime":3057.658,"body":"So"},{"startTime":3058.18,"endTime":3059.93,"body":"And I think, you know, teams are learning."},{"startTime":3060.07,"endTime":3061.45,"body":"Exciting and scary."},{"startTime":3061.49,"endTime":3061.98,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":3061.98,"endTime":3064.78,"body":"And I think teams are learning now"},{"startTime":3061.98,"endTime":3064.78,"body":"that like engineers, they spend a"},{"startTime":3064.78,"endTime":3067.99,"body":"lot of their time, in fact, most"},{"startTime":3064.78,"endTime":3067.99,"body":"of their time not writing code."},{"startTime":3068.05,"endTime":3070.05,"body":"Doing other things related"},{"startTime":3068.05,"endTime":3070.05,"body":"in the engineering world"},{"startTime":3070.05,"endTime":3071.55,"body":"that's not code creation."},{"startTime":3071.8,"endTime":3072.74,"body":"So I completely agree with you."},{"startTime":3072.74,"endTime":3076.71,"body":"It's about upskilling and understanding"},{"startTime":3072.74,"endTime":3076.71,"body":"what are the skill sets that new engineers"},{"startTime":3076.71,"endTime":3080.29,"body":"on the scene should bring, in order"},{"startTime":3076.71,"endTime":3080.29,"body":"to be, the best possible contributor."},{"startTime":3080.48,"endTime":3084.08,"body":"If we don't need them to write that kind"},{"startTime":3080.48,"endTime":3084.08,"body":"of more boilerplate code or take that"},{"startTime":3084.08,"endTime":3087.89,"body":"more low level approach to getting things"},{"startTime":3084.08,"endTime":3087.89,"body":"out in a more systemic way, that's great."},{"startTime":3087.89,"endTime":3092.03,"body":"You know, the AI has freed us up to, and"},{"startTime":3087.89,"endTime":3092.03,"body":"it can handle that really formulaically."},{"startTime":3092.27,"endTime":3094.3,"body":"But now, what's the new impact?"},{"startTime":3094.32,"endTime":3098.97,"body":"Writing code is just one way to have"},{"startTime":3094.32,"endTime":3098.97,"body":"impact as an engineer, but there's so"},{"startTime":3098.97,"endTime":3102.19,"body":"many ways to have an even greater impact,"},{"startTime":3098.97,"endTime":3102.19,"body":"and those are the things that we're"},{"startTime":3102.19,"endTime":3103.51,"body":"going to start trending towards, I think."},{"startTime":3104.038,"endTime":3106.388,"body":"It's funny you say that because"},{"startTime":3104.038,"endTime":3106.388,"body":"I read a post on LinkedIn six"},{"startTime":3106.388,"endTime":3109.718,"body":"months ago about how engineers"},{"startTime":3106.388,"endTime":3109.718,"body":"probably should be spending about 5"},{"startTime":3109.718,"endTime":3110.768,"body":"percent of their time writing code."},{"startTime":3110.808,"endTime":3113.248,"body":"It was one of the most polarizing"},{"startTime":3110.808,"endTime":3113.248,"body":"posts that I've ever had."},{"startTime":3113.298,"endTime":3117.808,"body":"Because the main point there is, if you're"},{"startTime":3113.298,"endTime":3117.808,"body":"in a company that is building any kind"},{"startTime":3117.808,"endTime":3121.528,"body":"of sophisticated software, there's a lot"},{"startTime":3117.808,"endTime":3121.528,"body":"of collaboration that needs to happen."},{"startTime":3121.878,"endTime":3124.688,"body":"There's a lot of discussions and"},{"startTime":3121.878,"endTime":3124.688,"body":"meetings and that sort of thing that"},{"startTime":3124.688,"endTime":3127.768,"body":"is productive ways of understanding"},{"startTime":3124.688,"endTime":3127.768,"body":"what you're going to build."},{"startTime":3128.108,"endTime":3130.078,"body":"And the actual building, I don't"},{"startTime":3128.108,"endTime":3130.078,"body":"know, 5 percent was too low,"},{"startTime":3130.078,"endTime":3132.088,"body":"but it's a small part of this."},{"startTime":3132.588,"endTime":3136.008,"body":"And if you're the person that wants to"},{"startTime":3132.588,"endTime":3136.008,"body":"just sit in your cube and just write code"},{"startTime":3136.008,"endTime":3139.058,"body":"all day, you're probably not going to be"},{"startTime":3136.008,"endTime":3139.058,"body":"successful in one of the outfits where"},{"startTime":3139.078,"endTime":3141.438,"body":"these kinds of interpersonal things,"},{"startTime":3141.778,"endTime":3144.563,"body":"um, So sort of, uh, play in there."},{"startTime":3144.984,"endTime":3148.854,"body":"so it, it, it's kind of interesting"},{"startTime":3144.984,"endTime":3148.854,"body":"of how that changes given some"},{"startTime":3148.854,"endTime":3151.344,"body":"of these tools and how companies"},{"startTime":3148.854,"endTime":3151.344,"body":"are sort of managing that, right?"},{"startTime":3151.344,"endTime":3154.224,"body":"We all agree that like, we don't wanna"},{"startTime":3151.344,"endTime":3154.224,"body":"be in meetings all day, but like,"},{"startTime":3154.224,"endTime":3157.494,"body":"are these productive meetings and if"},{"startTime":3154.224,"endTime":3157.494,"body":"I'm coding all day, am I missing out"},{"startTime":3157.494,"endTime":3160.884,"body":"from not collaborating with people"},{"startTime":3157.494,"endTime":3160.884,"body":"and understanding what other parts of"},{"startTime":3160.884,"endTime":3163.074,"body":"the problem that I'm trying to solve"},{"startTime":3160.884,"endTime":3163.074,"body":"is because at the end of the day."},{"startTime":3163.529,"endTime":3166.359,"body":"You know, most software engineering"},{"startTime":3163.529,"endTime":3166.359,"body":"work is taking some abstract"},{"startTime":3166.359,"endTime":3169.469,"body":"requirements that someone wrote down"},{"startTime":3166.359,"endTime":3169.469,"body":"or told you and converting it to"},{"startTime":3169.469,"endTime":3170.739,"body":"something very, very concrete, right?"},{"startTime":3170.739,"endTime":3173.259,"body":"Code is extremely concrete"},{"startTime":3170.739,"endTime":3173.259,"body":"as a specification."},{"startTime":3173.832,"endTime":3177.432,"body":"Most of the times, we're not doing"},{"startTime":3173.832,"endTime":3177.432,"body":"the dumbest thing of just completely"},{"startTime":3177.432,"endTime":3179.872,"body":"just, it's not like a translation."},{"startTime":3179.882,"endTime":3183.722,"body":"There is a bunch of interpretation that"},{"startTime":3179.882,"endTime":3183.722,"body":"is involved in doing the work, and that"},{"startTime":3183.722,"endTime":3185.342,"body":"depends on the context that we have."},{"startTime":3185.742,"endTime":3188.112,"body":"And the context is not just context"},{"startTime":3185.742,"endTime":3188.112,"body":"that we had inside ourselves, but"},{"startTime":3188.112,"endTime":3191.112,"body":"it's developed by talking to product"},{"startTime":3188.112,"endTime":3191.112,"body":"managers and designers and engineering"},{"startTime":3191.112,"endTime":3195.662,"body":"managers and other leaders and"},{"startTime":3191.112,"endTime":3195.662,"body":"other, of our peers and then figuring"},{"startTime":3195.662,"endTime":3196.932,"body":"out how to make that translation."},{"startTime":3197.274,"endTime":3197.684,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":3197.714,"endTime":3199.094,"body":"It's about building that context."},{"startTime":3199.114,"endTime":3200.584,"body":"That way you can have a bigger impact."},{"startTime":3200.664,"endTime":3202.134,"body":"And I think that's a"},{"startTime":3200.664,"endTime":3202.134,"body":"really great takeaway."},{"startTime":3202.584,"endTime":3205.774,"body":"and you know, we've learned so many"},{"startTime":3202.584,"endTime":3205.774,"body":"things today in our discussion and it's"},{"startTime":3205.774,"endTime":3208.254,"body":"been really kind of fantastic actually"},{"startTime":3205.774,"endTime":3208.254,"body":"to kind of open your head up and kind"},{"startTime":3208.254,"endTime":3211.514,"body":"of like figure out all these different"},{"startTime":3208.254,"endTime":3211.514,"body":"mental models and see how different teams"},{"startTime":3211.514,"endTime":3215.424,"body":"that you've interacted with have used"},{"startTime":3211.514,"endTime":3215.424,"body":"them both to good ends and bad ones."},{"startTime":3215.474,"endTime":3220.254,"body":"And I really liked the framework you gave"},{"startTime":3215.474,"endTime":3220.254,"body":"us for building that success over time."},{"startTime":3220.254,"endTime":3222.684,"body":"And I think there's so many"},{"startTime":3220.254,"endTime":3222.684,"body":"actionable takeaways in this"},{"startTime":3222.684,"endTime":3223.884,"body":"conversation for our listeners."},{"startTime":3223.884,"endTime":3225.519,"body":"So I'm really excited to"},{"startTime":3223.884,"endTime":3225.519,"body":"hear what people have Think."},{"startTime":3226.094,"endTime":3228.462,"body":"before we wrap up, where can"},{"startTime":3226.094,"endTime":3228.462,"body":"our audience go to learn more"},{"startTime":3228.462,"endTime":3229.432,"body":"about you and what you do?"},{"startTime":3230.305,"endTime":3233.525,"body":"So you can find me on LinkedIn and"},{"startTime":3230.305,"endTime":3233.525,"body":"send me a message there and I'm"},{"startTime":3233.525,"endTime":3234.765,"body":"happy to chat about all these things."},{"startTime":3234.765,"endTime":3237.685,"body":"I really like to nerd out about"},{"startTime":3234.765,"endTime":3237.685,"body":"everything engineering related."},{"startTime":3238.335,"endTime":3241.945,"body":"You also can find information about"},{"startTime":3238.335,"endTime":3241.945,"body":"myself on my website cosmicteacups.com"},{"startTime":3242.585,"endTime":3243.955,"body":"There's a bunch of information in there."},{"startTime":3243.955,"endTime":3247.525,"body":"I have a PDF with all the"},{"startTime":3243.955,"endTime":3247.525,"body":"mental models that I try to get"},{"startTime":3247.525,"endTime":3248.875,"body":"people to think in those terms."},{"startTime":3248.875,"endTime":3251.595,"body":"So go grab that one if you're"},{"startTime":3248.875,"endTime":3251.595,"body":"interested and happy to chat about it."},{"startTime":3252.332,"endTime":3252.952,"body":"Fantastic."},{"startTime":3252.962,"endTime":3254.972,"body":"You know, we'll, we'll make"},{"startTime":3252.962,"endTime":3254.972,"body":"sure these links to get in our"},{"startTime":3254.972,"endTime":3258.282,"body":"show notes and on our Substack"},{"startTime":3254.972,"endTime":3258.282,"body":"newsletter so you can follow along."},{"startTime":3258.292,"endTime":3261.492,"body":"And to you, our listener, thank"},{"startTime":3258.292,"endTime":3261.492,"body":"you for joining us this far."},{"startTime":3261.502,"endTime":3265.092,"body":"If you're joining us on our, your podcast"},{"startTime":3261.502,"endTime":3265.092,"body":"app, be sure to like, and subscribe."},{"startTime":3265.157,"endTime":3268.767,"body":"Today's episode, share it with folks"},{"startTime":3265.157,"endTime":3268.767,"body":"that you might think would enjoy it"},{"startTime":3268.987,"endTime":3271.807,"body":"and check out our sub stack if you"},{"startTime":3268.987,"endTime":3271.807,"body":"haven't already and we'll include"},{"startTime":3271.807,"endTime":3274.147,"body":"the links from today's conversation."},{"startTime":3274.567,"endTime":3278.247,"body":"You can also be checking out videos"},{"startTime":3274.567,"endTime":3278.247,"body":"of this on LinkedIn as well as on"},{"startTime":3278.247,"endTime":3281.827,"body":"YouTube as we're going to be sharing"},{"startTime":3278.247,"endTime":3281.827,"body":"the version of this podcast and I would"},{"startTime":3281.827,"endTime":3285.859,"body":"really love everyone to check out the"},{"startTime":3281.827,"endTime":3285.859,"body":"video because behind Thanos, our entire"},{"startTime":3285.859,"endTime":3288.249,"body":"conversation has been the Thanos gauntlet."},{"startTime":3288.81,"endTime":3292.7,"body":"been informed by our guests that it"},{"startTime":3288.81,"endTime":3292.7,"body":"is a gauntlet, it is not a glove and I"},{"startTime":3292.72,"endTime":3297.84,"body":"highly recommend everyone check So that's"},{"startTime":3292.72,"endTime":3297.84,"body":"it for this week's Dev Interrupted."},{"startTime":3297.94,"endTime":3299.9,"body":"Thanks for joining us"},{"startTime":3297.94,"endTime":3299.9,"body":"and see you next time."}]}