{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":6.104,"endTime":7.514,"body":"Welcome to Dev Interrupted."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":7.574,"endTime":8.954,"body":"I'm your host, Andrew Zigler."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":9.504,"endTime":11.154,"body":"And I'm"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":9.504,"endTime":11.154,"body":"your host, Ben Lloyd Pearson."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":11.368,"endTime":15.022,"body":"this week we're talking about the latest"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":11.368,"endTime":15.022,"body":"in a series of ThoughtWork memos on"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":15.022,"endTime":19.492,"body":"AI and the increasing divide between"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":15.022,"endTime":19.492,"body":"executive employees on their AI usage."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":19.492,"endTime":22.012,"body":"But I think, Andrew, you had something"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":19.492,"endTime":22.012,"body":"you wanted to bring up first."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":23.052,"endTime":23.682,"body":"Oh yes."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":23.712,"endTime":27.222,"body":"So a little birdie told me that you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":23.712,"endTime":27.222,"body":"got a lot of attention on social"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":27.222,"endTime":30.972,"body":"media in the last week or two,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":27.222,"endTime":30.972,"body":"and when you and I chatted about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":30.972,"endTime":34.572,"body":"it, it seems like it happened when"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":30.972,"endTime":34.572,"body":"you didn't have any phone service."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":34.687,"endTime":36.967,"body":"Yeah, it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":34.687,"endTime":36.967,"body":"was a, it was a little fun."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":37.027,"endTime":41.087,"body":"Uh, so I posted this article"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":37.027,"endTime":41.087,"body":"about, Sam Altman saying that us"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":41.087,"endTime":43.427,"body":"copyright laws holding back ai."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":43.817,"endTime":46.217,"body":"And, you know, I, I designed"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":43.817,"endTime":46.217,"body":"it to be a little inflammatory."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":46.217,"endTime":49.047,"body":"I'm gonna admit that, but I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":46.217,"endTime":49.047,"body":"still think I made a good point."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":49.412,"endTime":52.702,"body":"it was funny 'cause I posted it right"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":49.412,"endTime":52.702,"body":"before I left on vacation and, checked"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":52.702,"endTime":57.082,"body":"my cell phone many hours later when it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":52.702,"endTime":57.082,"body":"had hundreds of comments and of course"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":57.082,"endTime":61.805,"body":"had to turn off notifications but you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":57.082,"endTime":61.805,"body":"know, my controversial opinions on."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":62.14,"endTime":63.97,"body":"Copyright set aside."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":64.18,"endTime":67.72,"body":"You know, I seem to have wade into"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":64.18,"endTime":67.72,"body":"like the front lines of this brewing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":67.72,"endTime":71.95,"body":"conflict that I've seen, not just on"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":67.72,"endTime":71.95,"body":"my own page, but elsewhere on social"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":71.95,"endTime":76.72,"body":"media, and that is between creative"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":71.95,"endTime":76.72,"body":"professionals and software developers."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":77.17,"endTime":80.17,"body":"So, you know, people that are in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":77.17,"endTime":80.17,"body":"these creative lines of work, like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":80.17,"endTime":84.73,"body":"designers, musicians, artists, they"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":80.17,"endTime":84.73,"body":"are really starting to witness a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":84.73,"endTime":86.86,"body":"lot of the disruptive effects of ai."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":87.22,"endTime":90.04,"body":"But unlike professions like software"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":87.22,"endTime":90.04,"body":"development, they don't really seem"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":90.04,"endTime":93.73,"body":"to be receiving a whole lot of the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":90.04,"endTime":93.73,"body":"benefits that it brings along with it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":94.45,"endTime":97.27,"body":"So, you know, you think about software"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":94.45,"endTime":97.27,"body":"developers, like they really are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":97.27,"endTime":101.59,"body":"experiencing a lot of like things that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":97.27,"endTime":101.59,"body":"accelerate, that help improve quality,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":101.59,"endTime":103.33,"body":"that help them learn new things."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":103.76,"endTime":106.37,"body":"and the benefits have been way"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":103.76,"endTime":106.37,"body":"more substantial but you know, in,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":106.37,"endTime":108.71,"body":"in the background we've also kind"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":106.37,"endTime":108.71,"body":"of covered in the past how like."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":109.155,"endTime":112.725,"body":"Chinese companies are now entering this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":109.155,"endTime":112.725,"body":"space and, you know, they have zero"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":112.725,"endTime":115.305,"body":"obligation to respect Western copyrights."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":115.305,"endTime":119.535,"body":"So I kind of have every reason to believe"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":115.305,"endTime":119.535,"body":"that this disruption that creative"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":119.535,"endTime":120.945,"body":"professionals are feeling right now."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":121.455,"endTime":124.485,"body":"Probably on only gonna continue to grow."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":124.515,"endTime":130.005,"body":"Like even if Sam Altman and others can't"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":124.515,"endTime":130.005,"body":"train their models on copyrighted content."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":130.192,"endTime":132.472,"body":"you know, I wore, I wore my"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":130.192,"endTime":132.472,"body":"fixed copyright shirt today."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":132.502,"endTime":133.582,"body":"'cause this really matters."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":133.582,"endTime":136.372,"body":"This is a matter I can talk way"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":133.582,"endTime":136.372,"body":"too long about and most people"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":136.372,"endTime":137.602,"body":"is, our eyes just glaze over."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":137.972,"endTime":141.032,"body":"but I hope one thing we can't actually"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":137.972,"endTime":141.032,"body":"agree on is that today's copyright"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":141.032,"endTime":144.812,"body":"laws really do need to be rethought"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":141.032,"endTime":144.812,"body":"because I just simply don't think"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":144.812,"endTime":147.002,"body":"they're going to work in the AI era."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":147.032,"endTime":148.652,"body":"Like the AI was never."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":148.882,"endTime":151.282,"body":"Anticipated when copyright was created."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":152.617,"endTime":153.937,"body":"Isn't it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":152.617,"endTime":153.937,"body":"funny how timing works?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":153.937,"endTime":158.197,"body":"How you know you can post any other time"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":153.937,"endTime":158.197,"body":"while you're at work or dedicated to being"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":158.197,"endTime":162.457,"body":"online and you don't get much attention,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":158.197,"endTime":162.457,"body":"but then you post something and yolo,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":162.457,"endTime":165.097,"body":"throw your phone to the side, and you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":162.457,"endTime":165.097,"body":"disconnect from the world and you come"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":165.322,"endTime":165.892,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":166.207,"endTime":168.697,"body":"everyone's pointing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":166.207,"endTime":168.697,"body":"at you and you have all this unwanted"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":169.102,"endTime":171.232,"body":"You know, and I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":169.102,"endTime":171.232,"body":"thought I wasn't even, I thought I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":171.232,"endTime":174.532,"body":"wasn't even gonna post this one and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":171.232,"endTime":174.532,"body":"I just did it 'cause like why not?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":174.532,"endTime":176.032,"body":"I was like, it's content that I wrote."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":176.032,"endTime":176.872,"body":"Might as well post it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":178.072,"endTime":180.145,"body":"Something you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":178.072,"endTime":180.145,"body":"mentioned about, people in creative"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":180.145,"endTime":183.565,"body":"work, they're feeling the disruptive"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":180.145,"endTime":183.565,"body":"effects of ai, but they're not"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":183.745,"endTime":185.605,"body":"really feeling a lot of the benefits."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":185.605,"endTime":189.505,"body":"I think this really underscores a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":185.605,"endTime":189.505,"body":"lot of the disconnect right now that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":189.505,"endTime":191.305,"body":"I see between techs and creatives."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":191.525,"endTime":191.815,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":191.965,"endTime":194.425,"body":"someone in more of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":191.965,"endTime":194.425,"body":"like a creative role who works."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":194.52,"endTime":199.23,"body":"In tech, I feel like I'm often stuck"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":194.52,"endTime":199.23,"body":"between two opposing worldviews."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":199.35,"endTime":203.19,"body":"A lot of the time when I talk about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":199.35,"endTime":203.19,"body":"how I work or what I do, and I know"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":203.19,"endTime":205.81,"body":"many others, are in similar positions."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":206.17,"endTime":211.09,"body":"And something I've noticed is that when"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":206.17,"endTime":211.09,"body":"we use AI for knowledge work in tech, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":211.09,"endTime":215.35,"body":"know, we say context is king, you know,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":211.09,"endTime":215.35,"body":"that's what drives good copywriting,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":215.35,"endTime":217.36,"body":"good code, good decision management"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":217.785,"endTime":218.325,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":218.74,"endTime":219.52,"body":"iterations."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":219.52,"endTime":222.88,"body":"But when you're using AI"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":219.52,"endTime":222.88,"body":"for creative work, cohesion."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":223.06,"endTime":223.75,"body":"Is king."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":224.05,"endTime":227.68,"body":"That means that the changes we want to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":224.05,"endTime":227.68,"body":"apply with AI need to match the rest of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":227.68,"endTime":229.66,"body":"the piece or what we had in mind for it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":230.68,"endTime":233.74,"body":"it's really hard to iterate and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":230.68,"endTime":233.74,"body":"this is a completely different"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":233.74,"endTime":236.26,"body":"set of problems and solutions."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":236.44,"endTime":239.86,"body":"You know, in painting is one of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":236.44,"endTime":239.86,"body":"these ways that that technologists"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":239.86,"endTime":243.67,"body":"working with AI to creative work"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":239.86,"endTime":243.67,"body":"can change things, but there's still"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":243.67,"endTime":246.19,"body":"so much to tap into and explore."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":246.407,"endTime":250.367,"body":"that cohesion ultimately is what"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":246.407,"endTime":250.367,"body":"relates that piece with everything else."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":250.382,"endTime":253.862,"body":"you see a Van Gogh, you know it's Van"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":250.382,"endTime":253.862,"body":"Gogh because of the brush strokes,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":254.042,"endTime":256.382,"body":"and you know, it's an impressionist"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":254.042,"endTime":256.382,"body":"painting because of how those"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":256.382,"endTime":257.942,"body":"brush strokes relate to each other."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":258.512,"endTime":262.892,"body":"But since tech is really loud and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":258.512,"endTime":262.892,"body":"proud about sharing their AI usage in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":262.892,"endTime":266.282,"body":"the open, we're better at facilitating"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":262.892,"endTime":266.282,"body":"those strategies for context."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":266.522,"endTime":270.042,"body":"But creatives, they're in a world"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":266.522,"endTime":270.042,"body":"where they're not talking much about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":270.042,"endTime":273.252,"body":"that usage unless maybe they're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":270.042,"endTime":273.252,"body":"dismissing it or disparaging it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":273.252,"endTime":276.782,"body":"There's a. Large polarizing view"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":273.252,"endTime":276.782,"body":"on it, and as a result, they don't"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":276.782,"endTime":279.152,"body":"share those strategies for cohesion."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":279.512,"endTime":283.292,"body":"They aren't actually able to utilize"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":279.512,"endTime":283.292,"body":"AI as an artistic assistant in a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":283.292,"endTime":285.482,"body":"parallel to how we can use it in tech."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":285.732,"endTime":289.122,"body":"so that's just something that I've kind"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":285.732,"endTime":289.122,"body":"of been noodling on as I think about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":289.452,"endTime":293.502,"body":"what is the root of these differences"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":289.452,"endTime":293.502,"body":"between how folks use these tools."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":293.787,"endTime":296.467,"body":"Obviously there's other,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":293.787,"endTime":296.467,"body":"concerns here involved in the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":296.467,"endTime":299.797,"body":"conversations around copyright and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":296.467,"endTime":299.797,"body":"the models that do diffusion and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":299.832,"endTime":301.152,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":301.237,"endTime":303.907,"body":"that are the root"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":301.237,"endTime":303.907,"body":"of a lot of issues with how artists"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":303.907,"endTime":306.787,"body":"view the usage of technology, and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":303.907,"endTime":306.787,"body":"that goes back to your copyright."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":307.117,"endTime":308.737,"body":"They're seeing a different"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":307.117,"endTime":308.737,"body":"world than we are."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":309.398,"endTime":311.378,"body":"and I have been"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":309.398,"endTime":311.378,"body":"wondering like, is this almost like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":311.378,"endTime":314.933,"body":"a macrocosm of similar trends that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":311.378,"endTime":314.933,"body":"we're seeing in software development,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":315.048,"endTime":319.638,"body":"like some teams are really quick"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":315.048,"endTime":319.638,"body":"to embrace the benefits of ai."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":319.738,"endTime":323.968,"body":"and I've, accelerated their work"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":319.738,"endTime":323.968,"body":"because of it while others, maybe"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":323.968,"endTime":327.478,"body":"that are doing things that are like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":323.968,"endTime":327.478,"body":"tasks that are more like programming"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":327.478,"endTime":328.948,"body":"rather than software development."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":329.168,"endTime":331.988,"body":"they're seeing more disruption and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":329.168,"endTime":331.988,"body":"fewer of the benefits to the point"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":331.988,"endTime":333.288,"body":"where, you know, I don't think."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":333.743,"endTime":336.863,"body":"AI is gonna take all software"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":333.743,"endTime":336.863,"body":"developers jobs, but there"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":336.863,"endTime":340.583,"body":"are many jobs within software"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":336.863,"endTime":340.583,"body":"development that it certainly will."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":340.643,"endTime":344.988,"body":"And if your entire job is one of those"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":340.643,"endTime":344.988,"body":"things, then you may feel a type of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":344.988,"endTime":347.688,"body":"disruption without the benefits of ai."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":348.593,"endTime":349.463,"body":"Very much, very"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":349.548,"endTime":351.678,"body":"But speaking,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":349.548,"endTime":351.678,"body":"speaking of AI disruption,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":351.728,"endTime":353.378,"body":"let's talk about our next topic."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":353.378,"endTime":356.895,"body":"'cause comes from a former guest on our"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":353.378,"endTime":356.895,"body":"show that I think has brilliant ideas"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":356.895,"endTime":358.425,"body":"and I always love reading her work."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":358.425,"endTime":359.7,"body":"So what's this story about?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":360.99,"endTime":361.35,"body":"Oh yes."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":361.35,"endTime":364.56,"body":"So this, this story is the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":361.35,"endTime":364.56,"body":"latest memo actually in a series"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":364.56,"endTime":366.63,"body":"of memos from ThoughtWorks."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":366.79,"endTime":370.18,"body":"this latest memo is from Birgitta Bockeler"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":366.79,"endTime":370.18,"body":"who, like you mentioned, was a guest"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":370.18,"endTime":372.07,"body":"on Dev Interrupted back in November."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":372.32,"endTime":375.41,"body":"She talked about how we are"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":372.32,"endTime":375.41,"body":"making sense of a agentic ai."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":375.713,"endTime":380.387,"body":"Birgitta is back with an article that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":375.713,"endTime":380.387,"body":"explores the evolving role of developers"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":380.387,"endTime":384.317,"body":"as AI powered coding assistants become"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":380.387,"endTime":384.317,"body":"more capable and more prevalent."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":384.717,"endTime":387.597,"body":"it points out how they can"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":384.717,"endTime":387.597,"body":"enhance productivity, but it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":387.597,"endTime":389.277,"body":"requires constant oversight."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":389.397,"endTime":392.277,"body":"And if you've been listening"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":389.397,"endTime":392.277,"body":"to Dev Interrupted, we've heard"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":392.277,"endTime":395.127,"body":"this again and again from leaders"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":392.277,"endTime":395.127,"body":"in the space that are using"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":395.212,"endTime":395.492,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":396.327,"endTime":399.267,"body":"Creates so much"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":396.327,"endTime":399.267,"body":"opportunity, but it also creates so much"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":399.267,"endTime":403.977,"body":"disruption and it can really impact things"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":399.267,"endTime":403.977,"body":"like your time to commit your team flow"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":403.977,"endTime":406.587,"body":"and the maintainability of your code."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":406.857,"endTime":409.987,"body":"You know, there are a lot of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":406.857,"endTime":409.987,"body":"examples in here, in terms of actual,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":409.987,"endTime":414.107,"body":"applied usage, that the author"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":409.987,"endTime":414.107,"body":"used as you went through different"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":414.107,"endTime":415.787,"body":"iterations of different tools and."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":415.962,"endTime":419.172,"body":"What were the problems in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":415.962,"endTime":419.172,"body":"her usual process that she"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":419.172,"endTime":420.432,"body":"encountered along the way?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":420.522,"endTime":423.522,"body":"And it's really a hallmark of,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":420.522,"endTime":423.522,"body":"of course, ThoughtWorks memos."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":423.732,"endTime":426.822,"body":"I mean, it's very easy to understand,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":423.732,"endTime":426.822,"body":"but it's also cut straight"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":426.822,"endTime":430.722,"body":"to the core of how an actual"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":426.822,"endTime":430.722,"body":"technologist would use these tools."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":431.002,"endTime":432.622,"body":"Ben, do you wanna maybe talk"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":431.002,"endTime":432.622,"body":"about some of the things that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":432.622,"endTime":433.912,"body":"stood out from the article to you?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":434.552,"endTime":436.502,"body":"Yeah, and, and I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":434.552,"endTime":436.502,"body":"want to call out the, you know, our"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":436.502,"endTime":439.532,"body":"producer Adam mentioned, I, I believe"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":436.502,"endTime":439.532,"body":"this is the first guest that I ever"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":439.532,"endTime":441.002,"body":"interviewed on Dev Interrupted."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":441.002,"endTime":441.152,"body":"So."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":441.657,"endTime":443.997,"body":"topic definitely holds a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":441.657,"endTime":443.997,"body":"place dear to my heart."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":443.997,"endTime":447.427,"body":"But the thing that I really love"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":443.997,"endTime":447.427,"body":"about Brigitta is how she always"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":447.427,"endTime":452.457,"body":"focuses on very practical examples"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":447.427,"endTime":452.457,"body":"about the current state of ai."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":452.457,"endTime":457.447,"body":"So this is like cutting edge,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":452.457,"endTime":457.447,"body":"perspective on what AI is capable of."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":457.777,"endTime":461.14,"body":"And why that's so important is because"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":457.777,"endTime":461.14,"body":"this stuff is shifting so rapidly."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":461.56,"endTime":464.5,"body":"That I really think she is one of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":461.56,"endTime":464.5,"body":"the best voices at keeping everyone"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":464.5,"endTime":468.7,"body":"in the know about the progress that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":464.5,"endTime":468.7,"body":"AI development platforms are making."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":468.88,"endTime":472.06,"body":"And there's a couple of points that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":468.88,"endTime":472.06,"body":"she made that really stand out to me."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":472.39,"endTime":477.46,"body":"And the first is by no stretch of personal"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":472.39,"endTime":477.46,"body":"imagination, will we have AI that writes"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":477.46,"endTime":480.52,"body":"90% of our code autonomously in a year."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":480.55,"endTime":482.8,"body":"So I love that really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":480.55,"endTime":482.8,"body":"bold statement from her."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":483.34,"endTime":488.14,"body":"She does also say that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":483.34,"endTime":488.14,"body":"maybe it will assist in writing 90%"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":488.17,"endTime":490.6,"body":"of your code in some circumstances."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":490.85,"endTime":494.42,"body":"she claims that about 80% of her"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":490.85,"endTime":494.42,"body":"development is AI assisted, which"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":494.42,"endTime":496.04,"body":"is like really awesome to hear."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":496.325,"endTime":499.925,"body":"And I expect she's probably pretty far"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":496.325,"endTime":499.925,"body":"at, on the leading edge of, of that,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":499.925,"endTime":501.455,"body":"just given the nature of her work."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":501.915,"endTime":505.6,"body":"and one of the critical recommendations"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":501.915,"endTime":505.6,"body":"that I picked up from this that I. she"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":505.6,"endTime":510.43,"body":"recommends stepping away from GPT sessions"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":505.6,"endTime":510.43,"body":"when they start to feel out of control."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":510.71,"endTime":512.93,"body":"Uh, and this sort of echoes my experience."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":512.93,"endTime":515.81,"body":"Like most GPT sessions"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":512.93,"endTime":515.81,"body":"are ephemeral to me."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":515.81,"endTime":518.98,"body":"I spin them up when I need them, and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":515.81,"endTime":518.98,"body":"then the moment my problem is solved,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":518.98,"endTime":522.03,"body":"I forget about them forever And so,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":518.98,"endTime":522.03,"body":"you know, and I think really what we"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":522.03,"endTime":523.29,"body":"need to take away from this is that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":523.355,"endTime":527.735,"body":"engineering leaders, like you can't"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":523.355,"endTime":527.735,"body":"get complacent about AI assisted code."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":528.035,"endTime":532.265,"body":"You need to maintain discipline"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":528.035,"endTime":532.265,"body":"around basic code quality standards."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":532.545,"endTime":535.815,"body":"it's important that people are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":532.545,"endTime":535.815,"body":"trained on those things and that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":535.815,"endTime":540.105,"body":"they understand and agree with the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":535.815,"endTime":540.105,"body":"practices that you're implementing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":540.7,"endTime":544.18,"body":"Big plus one to the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":540.7,"endTime":544.18,"body":"idea of throwing the chat away when"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":544.18,"endTime":545.68,"body":"it stops helping you or it stops"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":545.855,"endTime":546.185,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":546.43,"endTime":549.53,"body":"That's one of the biggest"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":546.43,"endTime":549.53,"body":"strategies and pieces of advice I've"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":549.58,"endTime":553.21,"body":"given to people always about using"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":549.58,"endTime":553.21,"body":"a tool like ai is that ultimately."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":553.475,"endTime":557.195,"body":"If you're fighting it and it's not"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":553.475,"endTime":557.195,"body":"helping you step back, start over."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":557.285,"endTime":559.265,"body":"And that's a really great"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":557.285,"endTime":559.265,"body":"observation here from her."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":559.515,"endTime":563.145,"body":"it really kind of underscores how,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":559.515,"endTime":563.145,"body":"you know, those LLM basics really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":563.145,"endTime":564.825,"body":"carry you through this whole process."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":564.825,"endTime":566.955,"body":"And everyone needs to be doing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":564.825,"endTime":566.955,"body":"the upskilling work to really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":566.955,"endTime":568.335,"body":"understand how this stuff works."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":568.785,"endTime":570.195,"body":"so really great article."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":570.195,"endTime":572.535,"body":"Really looking forward to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":570.195,"endTime":572.535,"body":"the next memo on the topic."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":572.535,"endTime":574.065,"body":"'cause I know it's an evolving subject."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":574.425,"endTime":575.145,"body":"Yeah, definitely."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":575.145,"endTime":578.085,"body":"All, all the listeners need to head"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":575.145,"endTime":578.085,"body":"to the show notes, read this article."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":578.115,"endTime":579.225,"body":"Lot of great advice."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":579.435,"endTime":582.725,"body":"And I do also wanna mention that, we"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":579.435,"endTime":582.725,"body":"didn't get to cover it in this episode"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":582.725,"endTime":586.025,"body":"because it's a little bit bigger than"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":582.725,"endTime":586.025,"body":"what we were prepared to cover, but the,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":586.235,"endTime":590.845,"body":"the ThoughtWorks technology radar, just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":586.235,"endTime":590.845,"body":"came out to twice annual publication."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":591.095,"endTime":593.785,"body":"always has lots of great"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":591.095,"endTime":593.785,"body":"insights about, the who's who"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":593.795,"endTime":595.295,"body":"of software development tools."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":595.665,"endTime":596.475,"body":"so go check it out."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":596.475,"endTime":598.875,"body":"Just came out at like, I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":596.475,"endTime":598.875,"body":"last week, So what's our, what's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":598.875,"endTime":600.255,"body":"our last story for today, Andrew?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":600.84,"endTime":604.05,"body":"Our last story for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":600.84,"endTime":604.05,"body":"today is looking deeper at the divide"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":604.05,"endTime":607.95,"body":"inside of companies, between executives"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":604.05,"endTime":607.95,"body":"and their own employees about how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":607.95,"endTime":611.925,"body":"they perceive their AI usage and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":607.95,"endTime":611.925,"body":"its impact on the work that they do."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":612.472,"endTime":616.477,"body":"There were some really standout quotes"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":612.472,"endTime":616.477,"body":"and statistics from this article."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":616.667,"endTime":620.007,"body":"there were a bunch of posts about it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":616.667,"endTime":620.007,"body":"as well from a LinkedIn survey, that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":620.007,"endTime":624.847,"body":"found that, you know, less than half"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":620.007,"endTime":624.847,"body":"of employees, 45% of them, think that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":624.847,"endTime":628.627,"body":"their company's AI rollout in the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":624.847,"endTime":628.627,"body":"last 12 months has been successful."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":628.867,"endTime":629.497,"body":"And what makes"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":629.597,"endTime":629.817,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":629.947,"endTime":632.317,"body":"powerful"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":629.947,"endTime":632.317,"body":"statistic is that that's."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":632.362,"endTime":637.852,"body":"Compared to the 75% of C-Suite"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":632.362,"endTime":637.852,"body":"who thought that it went well."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":637.982,"endTime":640.862,"body":"there's a big divide here"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":637.982,"endTime":640.862,"body":"between employees and how they're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":640.862,"endTime":644.462,"body":"perceiving the usage of their AI"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":640.862,"endTime":644.462,"body":"tools within their company and the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":644.462,"endTime":646.982,"body":"impact of it and their executives."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":647.232,"endTime":650.982,"body":"only 57% of employees say that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":647.232,"endTime":650.982,"body":"their company even has an AI"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":650.982,"endTime":654.282,"body":"strategy, but 88% of C-suite."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":654.542,"endTime":656.402,"body":"Believe that their company do."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":656.612,"endTime":656.792,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":656.817,"endTime":657.642,"body":"Oh my gosh."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":658.022,"endTime":662.102,"body":"a misalignment between"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":658.022,"endTime":662.102,"body":"what's the reality within these companies."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":662.232,"endTime":666.402,"body":"so that's what about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":662.232,"endTime":666.402,"body":"a 50% divide between employee perception"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":666.402,"endTime":668.442,"body":"and, and executives, like, that's huge."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":668.822,"endTime":671.642,"body":"Yeah, it's pretty stark,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":668.822,"endTime":671.642,"body":"especially when you realize as part of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":671.642,"endTime":676.382,"body":"this survey as well as it goes back to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":671.642,"endTime":676.382,"body":"this 2024 LinkedIn report that said that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":676.382,"endTime":681.632,"body":"53% of employees were still hiding their"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":676.382,"endTime":681.632,"body":"AI usage from employers for the fear"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":681.632,"endTime":683.132,"body":"that would make them look replaceable."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":683.132,"endTime":687.122,"body":"I. this really underscores how within"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":683.132,"endTime":687.122,"body":"large companies, small companies"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":687.122,"endTime":691.142,"body":"alike, there's still a really big"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":687.122,"endTime":691.142,"body":"disconnect between these two worlds."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":691.142,"endTime":694.592,"body":"And there's still so much work to be"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":691.142,"endTime":694.592,"body":"done to bring them closer together"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":694.592,"endTime":698.852,"body":"with conversations about how this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":694.592,"endTime":698.852,"body":"technology is actually impacting us."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":698.902,"endTime":701.242,"body":"were there other things that stood out"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":698.902,"endTime":701.242,"body":"to you as well, Ben, in this article?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":701.402,"endTime":701.672,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":701.672,"endTime":704.522,"body":"Well, I love the hiding AI"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":701.672,"endTime":704.522,"body":"usage from your employer."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":704.582,"endTime":706.922,"body":"You know, as somebody who"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":704.582,"endTime":706.922,"body":"formerly maintained a whole bunch"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":706.922,"endTime":708.842,"body":"of shadow IT infrastructure."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":709.052,"endTime":711.542,"body":"You know, I can't officially"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":709.052,"endTime":711.542,"body":"condone that practice, but I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":711.542,"endTime":713.522,"body":"do understand the motivations."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":714.422,"endTime":718.172,"body":"But, you know, I really, it's, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":714.422,"endTime":718.172,"body":"like what I see is this like massive"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":718.262,"endTime":722.582,"body":"stark divide between employee"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":718.262,"endTime":722.582,"body":"and executive perception on ai."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":722.582,"endTime":724.472,"body":"That frankly is shocking."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":724.818,"endTime":727.008,"body":"In this article I read"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":724.818,"endTime":727.008,"body":"like there's pushback from"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":727.008,"endTime":730.768,"body":"employees, on AI specifically"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":727.008,"endTime":730.768,"body":"over a fear of being replaced."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":730.768,"endTime":733.198,"body":"Like that's, that's, that's kind of gross."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":733.568,"endTime":736.988,"body":"there's backlash against executives"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":733.568,"endTime":736.988,"body":"that claim that AI bots should"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":736.988,"endTime":738.458,"body":"be in the company org chart."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":738.458,"endTime":739.749,"body":"Like, which, you know, let's just."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":740.348,"endTime":744.128,"body":"Put this aside for a minute, like I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":740.348,"endTime":744.128,"body":"that's like a gross misunderstanding"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":744.128,"endTime":748.298,"body":"of how AI is actually going to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":744.128,"endTime":748.298,"body":"work in the typical organization."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":748.298,"endTime":751.328,"body":"Like it's not gonna be this all"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":748.298,"endTime":751.328,"body":"encompassing employee that does"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":751.328,"endTime":752.768,"body":"everything that a human can do."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":753.233,"endTime":753.503,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":753.878,"endTime":756.903,"body":"I. But then there's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":753.878,"endTime":756.903,"body":"also like employees sabotaging AI"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":756.903,"endTime":759.693,"body":"rollouts by just refusing to adopt it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":759.753,"endTime":764.293,"body":"My favorite quote from this was, it said,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":759.753,"endTime":764.293,"body":"we're all sick of the effing chatbots."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":764.563,"endTime":766.538,"body":"Don't ask me to use another chatbot."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":766.978,"endTime":767.198,"body":"So,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":767.243,"endTime":768.503,"body":"that's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":767.243,"endTime":768.503,"body":"pretty understandable."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":768.563,"endTime":768.683,"body":"You"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":768.788,"endTime":769.078,"body":"yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":769.523,"endTime":771.683,"body":"getting shoved"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":769.523,"endTime":771.683,"body":"into a chat interface these days"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":771.683,"endTime":773.153,"body":"definitely adds a lot of fatigue."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":773.383,"endTime":774.553,"body":"yeah,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":773.383,"endTime":774.553,"body":"I'll get to that in a minute."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":774.553,"endTime":777.613,"body":"Chat is not a great in, it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":774.553,"endTime":777.613,"body":"is an okay interface for ai."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":777.613,"endTime":781.003,"body":"It's not the best, but in this survey"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":777.613,"endTime":781.003,"body":"actually, it applies to a pretty"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":781.003,"endTime":784.483,"body":"wide range of knowledge work, but"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":781.003,"endTime":784.483,"body":"I really think it is representative"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":784.483,"endTime":788.117,"body":"of something that we also encounter"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":784.483,"endTime":788.117,"body":"in the, engineering world, and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":788.117,"endTime":790.577,"body":"that is unstructured AI adoption."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":790.907,"endTime":795.257,"body":"So when you give your team AI tools"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":790.907,"endTime":795.257,"body":"without fully understanding their needs."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":795.517,"endTime":798.097,"body":"Or providing training on how to use ai."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":798.097,"endTime":800.562,"body":"You're setting yourself up for"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":798.097,"endTime":800.562,"body":"chaos, like what is described."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":800.987,"endTime":804.867,"body":"In this article, like I mentioned,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":800.987,"endTime":804.867,"body":"chat is not the best interface for ai."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":804.917,"endTime":808.967,"body":"instead of chat bots, you should be"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":804.917,"endTime":808.967,"body":"thinking about how to deploy agents that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":808.967,"endTime":811.217,"body":"are custom built for your workflows."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":811.457,"endTime":813.947,"body":"So I call this like the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":811.457,"endTime":813.947,"body":"tokenization of knowledge work."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":813.977,"endTime":818.927,"body":"So focus on breaking work down into"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":813.977,"endTime":818.927,"body":"atomic units that are small enough"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":819.137,"endTime":821.537,"body":"for purpose-built AI agents to solve."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":821.612,"endTime":826.502,"body":"With high precision and high accuracy,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":821.612,"endTime":826.502,"body":"and of course you need guardrails"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":826.502,"endTime":831.332,"body":"on AI, too, there's a robust"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":826.502,"endTime":831.332,"body":"deterministic processes and tools"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":831.332,"endTime":832.922,"body":"that out there that come in handy."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":833.172,"endTime":836.772,"body":"use CICD to enforce quality"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":833.172,"endTime":836.772,"body":"practices, implement static"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":836.772,"endTime":842.992,"body":"analysis, don't rely 100% on human"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":836.772,"endTime":842.992,"body":"judgment to maintain AI oversight."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":843.812,"endTime":844.772,"body":"Really well said."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":844.832,"endTime":847.052,"body":"Especially about breaking work"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":844.832,"endTime":847.052,"body":"down into the small units."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":847.052,"endTime":848.702,"body":"I know you've seen a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":847.052,"endTime":848.702,"body":"lot of success with it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":848.702,"endTime":849.632,"body":"I have as well."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":850.052,"endTime":853.622,"body":"That's one of my biggest piece of advice"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":850.052,"endTime":853.622,"body":"for folks right now is knowledge workers."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":853.772,"endTime":856.772,"body":"Look at the things that you're doing,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":853.772,"endTime":856.772,"body":"that you're repeating over and over again."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":856.892,"endTime":857.252,"body":"Those"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":857.317,"endTime":857.607,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":857.912,"endTime":860.132,"body":"that you can solve"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":857.912,"endTime":860.132,"body":"with these ephemeral one-off"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":860.132,"endTime":861.572,"body":"types of solutions or chats."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":861.812,"endTime":863.852,"body":"There's a lot of potential"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":861.812,"endTime":863.852,"body":"there for saving time."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":864.417,"endTime":865.287,"body":"Yep, exactly."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":865.617,"endTime":867.237,"body":"So tell me about our guest today, Andrew."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":867.842,"endTime":868.232,"body":"Oh yes."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":868.232,"endTime":871.262,"body":"So after the break, we're bringing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":868.232,"endTime":871.262,"body":"Brooke Hartley Moy on the pod."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":871.562,"endTime":874.202,"body":"She's the CEO and Co-founder of Infactory."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":874.502,"endTime":879.662,"body":"And Brooke's work focuses on improving"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":874.502,"endTime":879.662,"body":"the trustworth worthiness of AI because"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":879.662,"endTime":883.532,"body":"after all, what good are tools if"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":879.662,"endTime":883.532,"body":"you can't predict how they'll work."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":883.862,"endTime":885.692,"body":"So stick around for this fun chat."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":885.962,"endTime":887.262,"body":"It's really gonna be a great one."},{"speaker":"ben_2_04-04-2025_141354","startTime":888.591,"endTime":891.951,"body":"stop asking if"},{"speaker":"ben_2_04-04-2025_141354","startTime":888.591,"endTime":891.951,"body":"AI can write code and start asking if"},{"speaker":"ben_2_04-04-2025_141354","startTime":891.951,"endTime":894.471,"body":"it improves your workflow at LinearB."},{"speaker":"ben_2_04-04-2025_141354","startTime":894.501,"endTime":897.981,"body":"We've supercharged the developer"},{"speaker":"ben_2_04-04-2025_141354","startTime":894.501,"endTime":897.981,"body":"experience with AI powered enhancements"},{"speaker":"ben_2_04-04-2025_141354","startTime":898.011,"endTime":901.451,"body":"that cut through bottlenecks and"},{"speaker":"ben_2_04-04-2025_141354","startTime":898.011,"endTime":901.451,"body":"save your team hours every week."},{"speaker":"ben_2_04-04-2025_141354","startTime":901.931,"endTime":905.151,"body":"LinearB now provides AI"},{"speaker":"ben_2_04-04-2025_141354","startTime":901.931,"endTime":905.151,"body":"generated PR descriptions."},{"speaker":"ben_2_04-04-2025_141354","startTime":905.171,"endTime":909.264,"body":"To eliminate manual summaries and"},{"speaker":"ben_2_04-04-2025_141354","startTime":905.171,"endTime":909.264,"body":"provide instant clarity, AI code reviews"},{"speaker":"ben_2_04-04-2025_141354","startTime":909.264,"endTime":912.971,"body":"that catch issues early so your team"},{"speaker":"ben_2_04-04-2025_141354","startTime":909.264,"endTime":912.971,"body":"can focus on what really matters And"},{"speaker":"ben_2_04-04-2025_141354","startTime":912.971,"endTime":917.351,"body":"AI powered iteration summaries that"},{"speaker":"ben_2_04-04-2025_141354","startTime":912.971,"endTime":917.351,"body":"turn retrospectives into automated"},{"speaker":"ben_2_04-04-2025_141354","startTime":917.411,"endTime":919.661,"body":"data-driven actionable discussions."},{"speaker":"ben_2_04-04-2025_141354","startTime":919.841,"endTime":923.651,"body":"We're already using these features"},{"speaker":"ben_2_04-04-2025_141354","startTime":919.841,"endTime":923.651,"body":"ourselves and the results are faster"},{"speaker":"ben_2_04-04-2025_141354","startTime":923.651,"endTime":927.971,"body":"delivery, less cognitive load, and better"},{"speaker":"ben_2_04-04-2025_141354","startTime":923.651,"endTime":927.971,"body":"development habits across the board."},{"speaker":"ben_2_04-04-2025_141354","startTime":928.391,"endTime":929.381,"body":"Wanna see it in action?"},{"speaker":"ben_2_04-04-2025_141354","startTime":929.591,"endTime":931.901,"body":"Head to the show notes to"},{"speaker":"ben_2_04-04-2025_141354","startTime":929.591,"endTime":931.901,"body":"schedule a demo, or join our"},{"speaker":"ben_2_04-04-2025_141354","startTime":931.901,"endTime":934.001,"body":"upcoming live platform showcase."},{"speaker":"ben_2_04-04-2025_141354","startTime":934.061,"endTime":934.901,"body":"We hope to see you there."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":935.888,"endTime":937.798,"body":"today we're diving"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":935.888,"endTime":937.798,"body":"into one of the most critical"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":937.798,"endTime":942.248,"body":"challenges for engineering leaders,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":937.798,"endTime":942.248,"body":"how to build accurate AI systems"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":942.408,"endTime":944.178,"body":"that actually work in the real world."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":944.778,"endTime":949.068,"body":"Joining me is Brooke Hartley Moy,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":944.778,"endTime":949.068,"body":"CEO and co founder of Infactory."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":949.598,"endTime":951.898,"body":"Brooke has an impressive"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":949.598,"endTime":951.898,"body":"background spanning companies"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":951.898,"endTime":953.978,"body":"like Humane, Samsung, and Google."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":954.238,"endTime":957.928,"body":"And now she's leading a company"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":954.238,"endTime":957.928,"body":"dedicated to solving one of the toughest"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":957.938,"endTime":960.268,"body":"problems in AI, trustworthiness."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":960.778,"endTime":961.998,"body":"Brooke, welcome to the show."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":962.858,"endTime":963.968,"body":"Hi, nice to be here."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":964.698,"endTime":966.908,"body":"It's so great to have"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":964.698,"endTime":966.908,"body":"you and we have lots to discuss."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":966.908,"endTime":968.718,"body":"So let's go ahead and jump in."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":968.908,"endTime":971.548,"body":"And the first thing I want to talk"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":968.908,"endTime":971.548,"body":"about is the speed of everything."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":971.748,"endTime":976.238,"body":"AI is moving crazy fast and it feels"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":971.748,"endTime":976.238,"body":"like some businesses just aren't ready"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":976.238,"endTime":979.888,"body":"for it, Week after week, we're seeing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":976.238,"endTime":979.888,"body":"new businesses and industries jump"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":979.888,"endTime":985.028,"body":"into LLMs, maybe without even having"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":979.888,"endTime":985.028,"body":"solid data practices or clear goals."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":985.378,"endTime":988.258,"body":"Sometimes we don't even get"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":985.378,"endTime":988.258,"body":"a clear sense they understand"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":988.258,"endTime":990.578,"body":"what the LLM can or can't do."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":990.928,"endTime":993.188,"body":"And I know you've seen"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":990.928,"endTime":993.188,"body":"this firsthand as well."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":993.518,"endTime":998.258,"body":"What is the biggest misconception that you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":993.518,"endTime":998.258,"body":"think companies have around AI right now?"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":999.382,"endTime":1002.732,"body":"I mean, I think"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":999.382,"endTime":1002.732,"body":"really been at the front lines of this."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1002.812,"endTime":1006.952,"body":"I certainly have in the roles I've"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1002.812,"endTime":1006.952,"body":"played before Infactory and now in terms"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1006.952,"endTime":1014.392,"body":"of Seeing companies trying to use LLMs"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1006.952,"endTime":1014.392,"body":"to solve every single challenge that"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1014.392,"endTime":1018.235,"body":"they might have as a business, and,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1014.392,"endTime":1018.235,"body":"you know, to use a trade expression,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1018.235,"endTime":1022.495,"body":"it's a little bit of a square peg into"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1018.235,"endTime":1022.495,"body":"a round hole situation in some cases."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1023.23,"endTime":1025.89,"body":"You know, LLMs are this"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1023.23,"endTime":1025.89,"body":"really magical technology."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1025.89,"endTime":1031.63,"body":"Like I'm fully AI optimist, excited"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1025.89,"endTime":1031.63,"body":"about what LLMs can do, but they also"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1031.66,"endTime":1036.28,"body":"aren't the end all be all solution or"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1031.66,"endTime":1036.28,"body":"the silver bullet I think that people"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1036.29,"endTime":1042.1,"body":"have come to treat them as, and not"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1036.29,"endTime":1042.1,"body":"every single AI challenge, or even just"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1042.1,"endTime":1043.53,"body":"business challenge, they get out of it."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1043.79,"endTime":1047.755,"body":"Not every business challenge should be"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1043.79,"endTime":1047.755,"body":"solved directly with just your run of the"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1047.755,"endTime":1049.765,"body":"mill LLM, or even a super powerful LLM."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1050.554,"endTime":1053.434,"body":"And when you get"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1050.554,"endTime":1053.434,"body":"down to it, brass tacks, what"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1053.434,"endTime":1056.224,"body":"do you think an LLM is actually"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1053.434,"endTime":1056.224,"body":"really good at for most businesses?"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1056.748,"endTime":1059.872,"body":"It's in the name"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1056.748,"endTime":1059.872,"body":"if you think about generative AI, which"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1059.872,"endTime":1063.422,"body":"is really the kind of AI that we're"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1059.872,"endTime":1063.422,"body":"talking about that LLMs power, you"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1063.422,"endTime":1067.612,"body":"know, AI is sort of a catch all now,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1063.422,"endTime":1067.612,"body":"but we're really talking about one field"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1067.612,"endTime":1069.462,"body":"within AI or within machine learning."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1069.602,"endTime":1072.782,"body":"Generative AI, LLMs are"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1069.602,"endTime":1072.782,"body":"good at the generative side."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1072.792,"endTime":1074.812,"body":"They're very good at being creative."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1074.872,"endTime":1076.602,"body":"They're very good at content creation."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1076.602,"endTime":1081.062,"body":"We've seen that in, you know, models that"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1076.602,"endTime":1081.062,"body":"produce images and videos and how much"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1081.062,"endTime":1082.732,"body":"those have progressed in a short time."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1083.062,"endTime":1085.762,"body":"I'm sure many people have already"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1083.062,"endTime":1085.762,"body":"experimented with things like"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1085.772,"endTime":1088.042,"body":"email writing or blog posts, or,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1088.462,"endTime":1088.632,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1088.632,"endTime":1088.692,"body":"The"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1088.692,"endTime":1091.152,"body":"New York Times"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1088.692,"endTime":1091.152,"body":"just announced within the last 24"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1091.152,"endTime":1095.552,"body":"hours that they were going to use"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1091.152,"endTime":1095.552,"body":"their own internal tool for helping"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1095.552,"endTime":1100.272,"body":"with article creation, research,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1095.552,"endTime":1100.272,"body":"doing headlines, not going so far as"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1100.312,"endTime":1104.502,"body":"to produce an entire article directly"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1100.312,"endTime":1104.502,"body":"from AI, but to support that process."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1104.952,"endTime":1107.692,"body":"they're honestly a very"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1104.952,"endTime":1107.692,"body":"great creative helper."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1107.992,"endTime":1111.412,"body":"if you want to produce something sort"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1107.992,"endTime":1111.412,"body":"of net new and kind of go off into"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1111.412,"endTime":1115.902,"body":"territory that feels unfamiliar and"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1111.412,"endTime":1115.902,"body":"potentially coming straight from the"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1115.902,"endTime":1119.692,"body":"artificial brain of an LLM, you're"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1115.902,"endTime":1119.692,"body":"going to get pretty good results at"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1119.692,"endTime":1121.632,"body":"this point from any LLM based tool."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1122.393,"endTime":1122.933,"body":"I agree."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1122.933,"endTime":1126.863,"body":"It, it's really helpful for getting"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1122.933,"endTime":1126.863,"body":"over the blank page and getting started"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1127.043,"endTime":1131.003,"body":"with some kind of right, like some"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1127.043,"endTime":1131.003,"body":"kind of critical mass to get you go."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1131.003,"endTime":1133.823,"body":"And sometimes you just need to see what"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1131.003,"endTime":1133.823,"body":"you don't like to know what you do."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1134.123,"endTime":1137.788,"body":"And when you, you know, I think you and I"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1134.123,"endTime":1137.788,"body":"can both agree that people playing around"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1137.788,"endTime":1139.348,"body":"with AI and innovating with new things."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1139.348,"endTime":1142.708,"body":"There's no shortage of ideas or"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1139.348,"endTime":1142.708,"body":"things that you could do to, change"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1142.708,"endTime":1144.748,"body":"your workflows with the tool."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1145.018,"endTime":1148.248,"body":"But when you get the result from"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1145.018,"endTime":1148.248,"body":"it, How can you really start to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1148.248,"endTime":1151.778,"body":"build trust in what you're getting"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1148.248,"endTime":1151.778,"body":"out of your LLMs or your AIs?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1152.568,"endTime":1155.658,"body":"Because, you know, to us, it kind"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1152.568,"endTime":1155.658,"body":"of just seems like a black box."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1156.152,"endTime":1156.642,"body":"Completely."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1156.642,"endTime":1158.572,"body":"And I mean, that's somewhat by design."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1158.622,"endTime":1161.932,"body":"And this kind of goes into the"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1158.622,"endTime":1161.932,"body":"topic of, What are LLMs not good at?"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1161.982,"endTime":1166.042,"body":"Which is they are inherently"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1161.982,"endTime":1166.042,"body":"to the black box problem."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1166.042,"endTime":1167.582,"body":"They're not really that explainable."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1167.622,"endTime":1171.872,"body":"It's not very easy to understand"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1167.622,"endTime":1171.872,"body":"where a decision came from."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1172.202,"endTime":1174.632,"body":"And in some ways you"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1172.202,"endTime":1174.632,"body":"wouldn't necessarily want to."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1176.087,"endTime":1178.787,"body":"If you're thinking about the use"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1176.087,"endTime":1178.787,"body":"cases that we just talked about, like,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1178.787,"endTime":1183.787,"body":"if you want the LM to give you that"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1178.787,"endTime":1183.787,"body":"creativity, help you with the blank"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1183.807,"endTime":1188.127,"body":"page in front of you, and to start to"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1183.807,"endTime":1188.127,"body":"sort of spark ideation and all of that,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1188.417,"endTime":1190.177,"body":"you don't want to have it completely."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1190.717,"endTime":1196.957,"body":"Lockdown to only work with, you know,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1190.717,"endTime":1196.957,"body":"completely vetted, verified answers and"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1197.317,"endTime":1201.047,"body":"obvious sort of delineation between,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1197.317,"endTime":1201.047,"body":"you know, source data and other things."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1202.213,"endTime":1207.023,"body":"when you're talking about other use"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1202.213,"endTime":1207.023,"body":"cases that people are now increasingly"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1207.023,"endTime":1210.813,"body":"trying to apply AI for, and particularly"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1207.023,"endTime":1210.813,"body":"in the enterprise, and across much more"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1210.813,"endTime":1215.813,"body":"critical use cases, that's where the"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1210.813,"endTime":1215.813,"body":"black box problem Really becomes an issue."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1216.233,"endTime":1219.433,"body":"And that's where, at the end of"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1216.233,"endTime":1219.433,"body":"the day, it's really about data."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1219.763,"endTime":1225.153,"body":"if you are going to trust the output"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1219.763,"endTime":1225.153,"body":"of an LLM or the output of any AI tool,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1225.513,"endTime":1230.513,"body":"you want to know that it's being trained"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1225.513,"endTime":1230.513,"body":"on the right data, that it is, if it's"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1230.513,"endTime":1234.833,"body":"doing any kind of rag flow, any kind"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1230.513,"endTime":1234.833,"body":"of additional grounding, that that data"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1234.833,"endTime":1237.153,"body":"itself is trustworthy and verified."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1237.503,"endTime":1240.593,"body":"And you want to be able to have some"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1237.503,"endTime":1240.593,"body":"exposure to like, what are those,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1240.798,"endTime":1244.398,"body":"decisions that it's being making behind"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1240.798,"endTime":1244.398,"body":"the scenes in order to come to its answer."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1244.688,"endTime":1248.738,"body":"We're seeing this more and more, like,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1244.688,"endTime":1248.738,"body":"you know, Operator, the, you know, newest"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1248.758,"endTime":1252.278,"body":"kind of forms of deep research that"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1248.758,"endTime":1252.278,"body":"OpenAI has put out, and on the anthropic"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1252.278,"endTime":1256.368,"body":"side, all of them are trying to expose"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1252.278,"endTime":1256.368,"body":"more of at least the LLM's thinking."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1257.143,"endTime":1260.298,"body":"it still doesn't solve the problem"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1257.143,"endTime":1260.298,"body":"completely of trust though, because."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1260.773,"endTime":1262.843,"body":"At the end of the day, the LM"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1260.773,"endTime":1262.843,"body":"is still going to be inherently"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1262.863,"endTime":1264.303,"body":"probabilistic in its response."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1264.794,"endTime":1265.754,"body":"Right, exactly."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1265.824,"endTime":1271.644,"body":"So what I'm hearing is that the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1265.824,"endTime":1271.644,"body":"stakes and the quality of the data,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1271.694,"endTime":1275.264,"body":"if the stakes are high, then the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1271.694,"endTime":1275.264,"body":"quality of the data needs to be high."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1275.284,"endTime":1277.294,"body":"You know, I've heard this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1275.284,"endTime":1277.294,"body":"from other guests as well."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1277.294,"endTime":1281.134,"body":"And that seems to be a really big trend"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1277.294,"endTime":1281.134,"body":"where when you're establishing trust,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1281.334,"endTime":1285.154,"body":"you know, if the stakes are high,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1281.334,"endTime":1285.154,"body":"the data quality, and the amount of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1285.154,"endTime":1289.744,"body":"information that's feeding into that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1285.154,"endTime":1289.744,"body":"decision making, it also needs to be high."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1290.064,"endTime":1293.804,"body":"So when you're talking about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1290.064,"endTime":1293.804,"body":"large enterprises, maybe ones that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1293.804,"endTime":1297.754,"body":"are typically really regulated,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1293.804,"endTime":1297.754,"body":"have a lot of restrictions."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1297.754,"endTime":1301.174,"body":"Maybe we don't typically view"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1297.754,"endTime":1301.174,"body":"them as like a digital company."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1301.174,"endTime":1303.864,"body":"There's a very traditional"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1301.174,"endTime":1303.864,"body":"enterprises that are sprawling."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1303.864,"endTime":1306.104,"body":"And you see them picking up"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1303.864,"endTime":1306.104,"body":"these tools now every week."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1306.314,"endTime":1310.574,"body":"we talked about Goldman Sachs"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1306.314,"endTime":1310.574,"body":"and how they adopted AI practices"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1310.574,"endTime":1312.084,"body":"within their corporation."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1312.084,"endTime":1318.889,"body":"And so when you talk about the data"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1312.084,"endTime":1318.889,"body":"quality, and being able to use the data."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1319.209,"endTime":1324.579,"body":"How can enterprises that don't typically"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1319.209,"endTime":1324.579,"body":"have a strong data practice actually get"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1324.579,"endTime":1327.889,"body":"good usage, out of LLMs with their data?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1327.899,"endTime":1328.739,"body":"Like, where do they start?"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1329.593,"endTime":1330.773,"body":"Yes,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1329.593,"endTime":1330.773,"body":"it's a great question."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1330.793,"endTime":1334.223,"body":"And it's funny because it's a"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1330.793,"endTime":1334.223,"body":"question that we've been asking for"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1334.223,"endTime":1338.853,"body":"a really long time that certainly"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1334.223,"endTime":1338.853,"body":"predates Anything related to LLMs"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1338.853,"endTime":1341.403,"body":"or even, you know, predates people"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1338.853,"endTime":1341.403,"body":"knowing what an LLM even was."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1342.033,"endTime":1345.113,"body":"Big data was sort of the,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1342.033,"endTime":1345.113,"body":"the moniker of its time."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1345.113,"endTime":1347.703,"body":"And I've been around the software"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1345.113,"endTime":1347.703,"body":"industry long enough to have heard"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1347.703,"endTime":1352.283,"body":"many conversations around how do we"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1347.703,"endTime":1352.283,"body":"turn what is essentially this massive"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1352.283,"endTime":1358.683,"body":"cost center of messy, siloed, not"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1352.283,"endTime":1358.683,"body":"particularly well managed and clean"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1358.683,"endTime":1360.603,"body":"data into something meaningful."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1360.673,"endTime":1364.458,"body":"And there's been various, Stages"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1360.673,"endTime":1364.458,"body":"of technology that have come"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1364.458,"endTime":1366.018,"body":"around to try to address that."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1366.508,"endTime":1370.118,"body":"I think the advantage we have now going"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1366.508,"endTime":1370.118,"body":"into sort of the AI era to help these"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1370.118,"endTime":1373.668,"body":"companies that you mentioned that are"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1370.118,"endTime":1373.668,"body":"often more in the legacy side or have"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1373.668,"endTime":1380.118,"body":"not even gone through the full evolution"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1373.668,"endTime":1380.118,"body":"of, moving to the cloud or using things"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1380.118,"endTime":1384.338,"body":"like data lake houses or the other"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1380.118,"endTime":1384.338,"body":"solutions that have come to pass is."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1385.013,"endTime":1389.13,"body":"You don't necessarily need to,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1385.013,"endTime":1389.13,"body":"clean up every single piece of"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1389.13,"endTime":1390.74,"body":"data in your current corpus."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1391.12,"endTime":1393.57,"body":"You can actually leverage AI, and this is"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1391.12,"endTime":1393.57,"body":"something that we've been really focused"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1393.57,"endTime":1398.96,"body":"on Infactory, to really understand, like,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1393.57,"endTime":1398.96,"body":"what data is worth investing in, like,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1398.96,"endTime":1403.885,"body":"what data Is going to answer the queries"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1398.96,"endTime":1403.885,"body":"that are most meaningful to your business."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1403.935,"endTime":1406.465,"body":"Like where are the nuggets of gold hidden?"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1406.725,"endTime":1411.905,"body":"And what is essentially like, you know,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1406.725,"endTime":1411.905,"body":"this desert of otherwise valuable,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1411.905,"endTime":1413.345,"body":"but maybe not so valuable information."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1413.775,"endTime":1418.365,"body":"And I think a big focus on that is then"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1413.775,"endTime":1418.365,"body":"how do you set that up in such a way"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1418.365,"endTime":1422.49,"body":"that the LLM, can understand that data"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1418.365,"endTime":1422.49,"body":"and another application can understand"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1422.49,"endTime":1425.63,"body":"that data, that you can use it, and get"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1422.49,"endTime":1425.63,"body":"the information that you're looking for."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1425.64,"endTime":1429.44,"body":"That's a big focus on what we're doing"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1425.64,"endTime":1429.44,"body":"Infactory, which is essentially on"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1429.44,"endTime":1435.73,"body":"the data preparation side, making LLMs"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1429.44,"endTime":1435.73,"body":"enterprise friendly by helping with this"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1435.73,"endTime":1440.56,"body":"sort of data layer and addressing how"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1435.73,"endTime":1440.56,"body":"do you make this data more useful in"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1440.56,"endTime":1444.44,"body":"an AI context, recognizing that, like,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1440.56,"endTime":1444.44,"body":"there are huge advantages to that now."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1444.73,"endTime":1448.54,"body":"but you have to at least take that"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1444.73,"endTime":1448.54,"body":"first step get them into that stage."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1449.016,"endTime":1449.496,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1449.516,"endTime":1454.036,"body":"And so not all data is made equal and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1449.516,"endTime":1454.036,"body":"some of it is going to be more important."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1454.036,"endTime":1456.216,"body":"I think that's a native instinct"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1454.036,"endTime":1456.216,"body":"that most people have when they"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1456.216,"endTime":1459.936,"body":"approach data, especially engineering"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1456.216,"endTime":1459.936,"body":"data or things around Finances."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1459.936,"endTime":1463.496,"body":"Like, some things are just more"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1459.936,"endTime":1463.496,"body":"important to look at and understand."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1463.866,"endTime":1467.406,"body":"And you really highlight, I think, for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1463.866,"endTime":1467.406,"body":"me, what I think is the anxiety when"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1467.406,"endTime":1471.506,"body":"people think about the evolution of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1467.406,"endTime":1471.506,"body":"AI rapidly within large organizations,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1471.506,"endTime":1475.256,"body":"and, you know, you talk about like the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1471.506,"endTime":1475.256,"body":"big data, and being able to analyze"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1475.256,"endTime":1476.746,"body":"what you have, and that was already."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1476.906,"endTime":1479.976,"body":"a problem that we had"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1476.906,"endTime":1479.976,"body":"before AI got on the scene."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1479.976,"endTime":1482.586,"body":"You know, companies were already"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1479.976,"endTime":1482.586,"body":"sitting on troves of data, more"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1482.586,"endTime":1483.756,"body":"than they knew what to do with."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1484.036,"endTime":1488.296,"body":"And they were already going through"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1484.036,"endTime":1488.296,"body":"processes of, you know, having the data"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1488.296,"endTime":1490.736,"body":"warehouse, the data lake house, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1488.296,"endTime":1490.736,"body":"know, go through all these different"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1490.736,"endTime":1492.526,"body":"evolutions of how to access it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1492.846,"endTime":1496.596,"body":"when you're talking about the nuggets"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1492.846,"endTime":1496.596,"body":"of gold, and maybe you're somebody"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1496.596,"endTime":1501.126,"body":"who's trying to find those nuggets of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1496.596,"endTime":1501.126,"body":"gold, obviously they tie back to your"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1501.216,"endTime":1506.686,"body":"business, but how can you really start"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1501.216,"endTime":1506.686,"body":"a data forward practice within your"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1506.686,"endTime":1510.696,"body":"organization to make sure those nuggets"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1506.686,"endTime":1510.696,"body":"of gold are always getting found?"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1511.39,"endTime":1514.04,"body":"It doesn't"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1511.39,"endTime":1514.04,"body":"require nearly the heavy lifting"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1514.04,"endTime":1520.045,"body":"that I think people expect, I think"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1514.04,"endTime":1520.045,"body":"part of it is recognizing that there"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1520.045,"endTime":1524.955,"body":"are probably, a hundred different"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1520.045,"endTime":1524.955,"body":"queries in a larger organization"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1525.305,"endTime":1531.265,"body":"that covers 90 percent of what a"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1525.305,"endTime":1531.265,"body":"business would actually want to know."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1531.585,"endTime":1534.805,"body":"And so when we talk about big data, I"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1531.585,"endTime":1534.805,"body":"often kind of laugh a little bit about"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1534.805,"endTime":1536.785,"body":"it because yes, there is a lot of data."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1536.845,"endTime":1539.365,"body":"corporations have more data than"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1536.845,"endTime":1539.365,"body":"they know what to do with, and"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1539.365,"endTime":1541.145,"body":"they're producing more, every second."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1541.145,"endTime":1544.605,"body":"And it's like The giant waste pile,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1541.145,"endTime":1544.605,"body":"like moving around the Pacific Ocean."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1544.605,"endTime":1547.145,"body":"And that's how I kind of pictured"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1544.605,"endTime":1547.145,"body":"in my head of like all of this data"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1547.175,"endTime":1549.095,"body":"that's just accumulating, accumulating,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1549.441,"endTime":1550.011,"body":"Yes,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1550.175,"endTime":1553.525,"body":"mostly it's"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1550.175,"endTime":1553.525,"body":"just, how do you get down to at"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1553.525,"endTime":1555.755,"body":"a very granular, precise level?"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1556.642,"endTime":1560.262,"body":"few things that really matter, and AI"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1556.642,"endTime":1560.262,"body":"really does enable that in a way that"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1560.352,"endTime":1563.892,"body":"we haven't been able to do before,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1560.352,"endTime":1563.892,"body":"you know, that's a lot of what we've"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1563.892,"endTime":1569.622,"body":"been focused on over the last, few"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1563.892,"endTime":1569.622,"body":"months is this idea that if you can"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1569.812,"endTime":1575.922,"body":"understand just a hundred queries and"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1569.812,"endTime":1575.922,"body":"get the right answers to those queries."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1576.022,"endTime":1580.762,"body":"You probably have made like a huge stride"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1576.022,"endTime":1580.762,"body":"forward and being able to get the things"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1580.762,"endTime":1584.162,"body":"that actually matter out of your data,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1580.762,"endTime":1584.162,"body":"rather than trying to sort of what has"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1584.162,"endTime":1587.752,"body":"been historically the approach, because"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1584.162,"endTime":1587.752,"body":"we haven't had this level of precision."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1587.752,"endTime":1592.722,"body":"We haven't had like scalpel level"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1587.752,"endTime":1592.722,"body":"precision of trying to just turn"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1592.732,"endTime":1596.912,"body":"everything into a data asset that it's"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1592.732,"endTime":1596.912,"body":"not practical, nor is it really necessary."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1596.912,"endTime":1600.332,"body":"It's, it's a massive drain on"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1596.912,"endTime":1600.332,"body":"time and cost and resources."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1600.382,"endTime":1600.992,"body":"And so."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1601.472,"endTime":1605.022,"body":"Businesses should be leveraging AI"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1601.472,"endTime":1605.022,"body":"differently, and data engineers need to be"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1605.032,"endTime":1609.772,"body":"thinking about this in terms of how do I"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1605.032,"endTime":1609.772,"body":"actually focus on the things that matter?"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1610.072,"endTime":1612.292,"body":"AI is really making that possible."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1613.198,"endTime":1615.538,"body":"I think that's a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1613.198,"endTime":1615.538,"body":"big unlock because AI is really,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1615.558,"endTime":1616.988,"body":"at the end of the day, about focus."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1617.238,"endTime":1620.038,"body":"We talk about that a lot on this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1617.238,"endTime":1620.038,"body":"show, about what AI gives you is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1620.048,"endTime":1622.858,"body":"not necessarily the end result, But"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1620.048,"endTime":1622.858,"body":"the ability to focus on the higher"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1622.858,"endTime":1624.628,"body":"level things that the AI can't do."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1624.898,"endTime":1626.898,"body":"And the same thing has"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1624.898,"endTime":1626.898,"body":"always been true about data."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1627.168,"endTime":1630.758,"body":"you draw a really good visual"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1627.168,"endTime":1630.758,"body":"image, I think, of maybe having"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1630.758,"endTime":1633.048,"body":"like a giant trash island of data."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1633.048,"endTime":1634.938,"body":"And you know, it's in the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1633.048,"endTime":1634.938,"body":"middle of the Atlantic ocean."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1634.938,"endTime":1636.418,"body":"It's the size of Texas."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1636.632,"endTime":1638.652,"body":"I realize it's"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1636.632,"endTime":1638.652,"body":"not, it's, it's visceral, but maybe,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1639.148,"endTime":1641.508,"body":"It's visceral, but so real."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1641.588,"endTime":1645.228,"body":"And in that environment, you know, that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1641.588,"endTime":1645.228,"body":"data, just like the trash that's kind of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1645.238,"endTime":1646.568,"body":"going in and out, it's cycling through."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1646.568,"endTime":1649.418,"body":"There's a lot of stuff coming in and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1646.568,"endTime":1649.418,"body":"out and you're building on top of it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1649.688,"endTime":1653.221,"body":"And so really the key is if you're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1649.688,"endTime":1653.221,"body":"going to build on top of, what we"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1653.221,"endTime":1656.761,"body":"think is like this, like layer in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1653.221,"endTime":1656.761,"body":"the ocean, you got to build fast."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1656.761,"endTime":1657.951,"body":"You got to be innovative."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1657.971,"endTime":1662.261,"body":"You got to look at what's there and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1657.971,"endTime":1662.261,"body":"be, inventive, but also decisive."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1662.433,"endTime":1664.482,"body":"if you're a team and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1662.433,"endTime":1664.482,"body":"you're trying to innovate."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1664.627,"endTime":1668.317,"body":"in that kind of environment, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1664.627,"endTime":1668.317,"body":"have a lot of data, you have a lot of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1668.317,"endTime":1670.897,"body":"hypotheses, AI is giving you focus."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1671.103,"endTime":1675.483,"body":"How can you start iterating to get"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1671.103,"endTime":1675.483,"body":"to the core of the problem we've"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1675.493,"endTime":1677.123,"body":"talked about, which is trust?"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1677.547,"endTime":1680.107,"body":"It's an interesting"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1677.547,"endTime":1680.107,"body":"time for people in the development space."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1680.157,"endTime":1683.407,"body":"I always say to give another"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1680.157,"endTime":1683.407,"body":"visual, it feels a little bit"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1683.727,"endTime":1687.617,"body":"like building on quicksand because"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1683.727,"endTime":1687.617,"body":"the pace is really fast, right?"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1687.697,"endTime":1692.837,"body":"what was edge even just a few"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1687.697,"endTime":1692.837,"body":"months ago already starts to"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1692.837,"endTime":1694.397,"body":"feel obsolete pretty quickly."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1694.697,"endTime":1696.837,"body":"The ethics are constantly changing."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1697.627,"endTime":1702.787,"body":"we've got publishers suing some"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1697.627,"endTime":1702.787,"body":"tools while other publishers are"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1702.787,"endTime":1704.497,"body":"playing nicely and doing deals."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1704.527,"endTime":1706.487,"body":"We've got, DeepSeek."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1706.517,"endTime":1710.197,"body":"I think, you know, if you had told me that"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1706.517,"endTime":1710.197,"body":"that was going to happen, it's like, that"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1710.197,"endTime":1712.417,"body":"was definitely not in my 2025 bingo card."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1712.887,"endTime":1716.757,"body":"And so staying up to date with all of"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1712.887,"endTime":1716.757,"body":"those things is really challenging."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1717.117,"endTime":1721.727,"body":"I think that the way that developers"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1717.117,"endTime":1721.727,"body":"are going to succeed with the trust"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1721.727,"endTime":1725.707,"body":"element is that first of all, Trust"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1721.727,"endTime":1725.707,"body":"is the only thing that is really going"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1725.707,"endTime":1727.207,"body":"to matter at a foundational level."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1727.457,"endTime":1731.627,"body":"In order for AI to have any meaningful"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1727.457,"endTime":1731.627,"body":"impact on the enterprise and, you know,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1731.637,"endTime":1737.617,"body":"honestly, society at large, people have"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1731.637,"endTime":1737.617,"body":"to believe that the outputs are, one,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1737.647,"endTime":1743.267,"body":"accurate and reliable, but two, that"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1737.647,"endTime":1743.267,"body":"They're based on outcomes that ultimately"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1743.267,"endTime":1749.087,"body":"have net benefit as opposed to, risks and"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1743.267,"endTime":1749.087,"body":"dangers sort of embedded in the system."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1750.157,"endTime":1755.577,"body":"in my mind, like what I've seen succeed"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1750.157,"endTime":1755.577,"body":"for people that are building in this space"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1755.617,"endTime":1758.247,"body":"is just relentless focus on that idea."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1758.537,"endTime":1763.027,"body":"On that idea that you want to be"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1758.537,"endTime":1763.027,"body":"working with high quality data,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1763.517,"endTime":1769.507,"body":"You want to be building with the"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1763.517,"endTime":1769.507,"body":"mindset of how do I make this as"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1769.507,"endTime":1771.587,"body":"reliable as possible for my end user?"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1771.977,"endTime":1775.027,"body":"And I want to expose as much"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1771.977,"endTime":1775.027,"body":"as possible for my end user."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1775.027,"endTime":1778.557,"body":"I want to make them sort of, pull back"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1775.027,"endTime":1778.557,"body":"as much of the black box as possible."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1778.917,"endTime":1783.117,"body":"I feel like the winners in this space"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1778.917,"endTime":1783.117,"body":"in a time of so much evolution and"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1783.117,"endTime":1786.637,"body":"change are the ones that kind of are"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1783.117,"endTime":1786.637,"body":"going to keep all of Those principles,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1786.657,"endTime":1788.897,"body":"top of mind in the trust arena."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1789.506,"endTime":1791.686,"body":"I like the idea of building"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1789.506,"endTime":1791.686,"body":"on quicksand, you know, it's going to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1791.696,"endTime":1793.716,"body":"be constantly shifting underneath you."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1794.086,"endTime":1795.326,"body":"It's a changing environment."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1796.016,"endTime":1799.116,"body":"And, and you've given some solid"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1796.016,"endTime":1799.116,"body":"advice for how you can plan for things."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1799.356,"endTime":1803.336,"body":"You maybe can't even predict, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1799.356,"endTime":1803.336,"body":"know, AI is moving really fast."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1803.336,"endTime":1805.626,"body":"We're trying to hit moving targets"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1803.336,"endTime":1805.626,"body":"and build things that are not"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1805.626,"endTime":1807.486,"body":"going to be obsolete in six months."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1807.676,"endTime":1809.866,"body":"And we don't want to make the wrong"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1807.676,"endTime":1809.866,"body":"decisions that are going to cost"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1809.866,"endTime":1813.552,"body":"our employers a lot of money or"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1809.866,"endTime":1813.552,"body":"our, our team a lot of advantage."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1813.762,"endTime":1817.152,"body":"so there's a lot of, uh, you know,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1813.762,"endTime":1817.152,"body":"pressure, I think, and that pressure"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1817.152,"endTime":1821.002,"body":"and trust, they work in a balance with"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1817.152,"endTime":1821.002,"body":"each other because, you know, you want"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1821.002,"endTime":1824.292,"body":"to trust as much as possible, but you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1821.002,"endTime":1824.292,"body":"also have to be able to keep up with."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1824.357,"endTime":1825.507,"body":"You know, competition."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1825.517,"endTime":1827.897,"body":"So it's a constant dance between them."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1828.157,"endTime":1832.087,"body":"And so when we get to this world where"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1828.157,"endTime":1832.087,"body":"we're building with, LLMs and we're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1832.117,"endTime":1837.567,"body":"able to build trust from what we get"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1832.117,"endTime":1837.567,"body":"out of them, I want to search here for,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1837.697,"endTime":1840.407,"body":"a really good insight for our audience"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1837.697,"endTime":1840.407,"body":"that, you know, comes from like an"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1840.417,"endTime":1842.447,"body":"engineering management Background."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1842.667,"endTime":1846.447,"body":"They're trying to implement their data"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1842.667,"endTime":1846.447,"body":"practices, these data practices that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1846.457,"endTime":1848.487,"body":"you're talking about with AI workflows."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1848.757,"endTime":1853.327,"body":"A lot of teams right now have mandates"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1848.757,"endTime":1853.327,"body":"from their organizations to create these"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1853.327,"endTime":1855.427,"body":"workflows right now to experiment with AI."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1856.397,"endTime":1861.327,"body":"how can those engineering leaders"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1856.397,"endTime":1861.327,"body":"partner with their non technical"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1861.327,"endTime":1865.997,"body":"leaders and help them build that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1861.327,"endTime":1865.997,"body":"trust, but also help build impact?"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1866.666,"endTime":1869.796,"body":"Yeah, I think this"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1866.666,"endTime":1869.796,"body":"goes actually back to sort of the top"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1869.796,"endTime":1874.596,"body":"of our conversation, which is where are"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1869.796,"endTime":1874.596,"body":"LLMs effective and where they are not."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1875.336,"endTime":1878.696,"body":"And I think one area that has been."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1879.491,"endTime":1884.981,"body":"sort of deeply, underutilized as far"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1879.491,"endTime":1884.981,"body":"as attention, uh, you know, has not"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1884.981,"endTime":1890.561,"body":"gotten the primary focus is solutions"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1884.981,"endTime":1890.561,"body":"and offerings that complement the LLM."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1890.641,"endTime":1894.961,"body":"And that I think business leaders"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1890.641,"endTime":1894.961,"body":"and particularly non technical"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1894.961,"endTime":1899.241,"body":"business leaders do see LLMs as"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1894.961,"endTime":1899.241,"body":"sort of this panacea to anything"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1899.241,"endTime":1900.851,"body":"that they want to throw at it."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1901.601,"endTime":1908.131,"body":"It's sort of on the engineering"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1901.601,"endTime":1908.131,"body":"manager's to figure out how to"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1908.541,"endTime":1916.551,"body":"compliment the LLM with other techniques"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1908.541,"endTime":1916.551,"body":"and ML offerings that bring a level"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1916.551,"endTime":1918.601,"body":"of determinism into the process."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1919.271,"endTime":1922.221,"body":"I think it's a, it's going to be a"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1919.271,"endTime":1922.221,"body":"tall order to, to convince people"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1922.221,"endTime":1926.344,"body":"that, you know, maybe we need to slow"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1922.221,"endTime":1926.344,"body":"down the pace of, of LLM adoption."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1926.754,"endTime":1928.624,"body":"Uh, I think the genie is out of"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1926.754,"endTime":1928.624,"body":"the bottle a little bit there."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1928.624,"endTime":1931.779,"body":"Now that people have some"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1928.624,"endTime":1931.779,"body":"general understanding of what"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1931.779,"endTime":1933.139,"body":"these technologies can do."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1933.569,"endTime":1937.499,"body":"But I think that there's a role for"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1933.569,"endTime":1937.499,"body":"engineering managers to play in terms"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1937.499,"endTime":1942.689,"body":"of pushing for features that support"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1937.499,"endTime":1942.689,"body":"LLM usage in a safe and trustworthy way."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1942.719,"endTime":1946.429,"body":"And so that includes things"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1942.719,"endTime":1946.429,"body":"like obviously evaluation."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1946.499,"endTime":1950.719,"body":"Um, I think evaluation is, is less and"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1946.499,"endTime":1950.719,"body":"increasingly less important because it's,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1951.189,"endTime":1952.809,"body":"the models are becoming commoditized."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1952.929,"endTime":1954.489,"body":"How much one model is that"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1952.929,"endTime":1954.489,"body":"different from another?"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1954.829,"endTime":1959.069,"body":"But I think there are other features"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1954.829,"endTime":1959.069,"body":"and efforts that engineering managers"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1959.069,"endTime":1964.759,"body":"can take in the area of, you know,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1959.069,"endTime":1964.759,"body":"guardrails, obviously attribution and"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1965.059,"endTime":1969.399,"body":"being able to bring in some sense of"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1965.059,"endTime":1969.399,"body":"sort of data lineage and explainability."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1969.769,"endTime":1972.349,"body":"Anyone right now that's building in"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1969.769,"endTime":1972.349,"body":"the explainability space, I think"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1972.349,"endTime":1976.099,"body":"is on the right track and engineers"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1972.349,"endTime":1976.099,"body":"looking at some of those tools"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1976.099,"endTime":1977.759,"body":"and how they might leverage them."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1978.102,"endTime":1982.242,"body":"but I think it's, defining a"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1978.102,"endTime":1982.242,"body":"full tech stack and architecture"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1982.312,"endTime":1986.272,"body":"that isn't just LLM application."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1986.822,"endTime":1990.042,"body":"I think most engineering managers"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1986.822,"endTime":1990.042,"body":"have certainly gone past that, that"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1990.042,"endTime":1994.732,"body":"understanding at this point, but it's"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1990.042,"endTime":1994.732,"body":"about, okay, what, what goes in between,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1994.802,"endTime":2000.172,"body":"RAG has been sort of the technique of"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":1994.802,"endTime":2000.172,"body":"choice, at least for the last year, now"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2000.172,"endTime":2004.752,"body":"we're moving into much more  agentic"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2000.172,"endTime":2004.752,"body":"autonomous view of the world where it's"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2004.752,"endTime":2006.342,"body":"not just about search and retrieval."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2006.342,"endTime":2007.882,"body":"It's about actual action."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2008.372,"endTime":2011.352,"body":"That's also going to depend on like"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2008.372,"endTime":2011.352,"body":"the quality of the data that the agents"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2011.352,"endTime":2014.562,"body":"retrieving, you can't trust an agent to"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2011.352,"endTime":2014.562,"body":"go out and do something on your behalf."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2014.622,"endTime":2018.662,"body":"If you don't believe that it's"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2014.622,"endTime":2018.662,"body":"accessing things that are ultimately"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2018.922,"endTime":2020.372,"body":"correct and worth trusting."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2020.712,"endTime":2024.442,"body":"And so those are, those are the areas"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2020.712,"endTime":2024.442,"body":"in which I feel like engineering"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2024.442,"endTime":2029.557,"body":"managers have a role to play in terms"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2024.442,"endTime":2029.557,"body":"of defining the safety and the trust"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2029.557,"endTime":2033.687,"body":"that's going to be built into their AI"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2029.557,"endTime":2033.687,"body":"systems going forward and to help bring"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2033.687,"endTime":2035.367,"body":"business leaders along on that journey."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2036.13,"endTime":2039.98,"body":"and so if you're in one of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2036.13,"endTime":2039.98,"body":"these engineering leaders and, if you're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2039.98,"endTime":2043.26,"body":"trying to start building these muscles,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2039.98,"endTime":2043.26,"body":"these are new muscles, you know, people"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2043.26,"endTime":2045.3,"body":"haven't built in these ways before."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2045.63,"endTime":2047.84,"body":"you've given us some really good"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2045.63,"endTime":2047.84,"body":"habits, I think, to start with,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2047.84,"endTime":2049.23,"body":"like around data practices."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2049.26,"endTime":2053.08,"body":"Are there any other habits that you'd"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2049.26,"endTime":2053.08,"body":"recommend in this new AI native world?"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2054.044,"endTime":2057.931,"body":"I think a few,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2054.044,"endTime":2057.931,"body":"one is, if you are building in the AI"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2057.931,"endTime":2068.151,"body":"space, is, the builder, ultimately your"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2057.931,"endTime":2068.151,"body":"responsibility to understand outcomes"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2068.601,"endTime":2073.081,"body":"Your what, you know, basically everything"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2068.601,"endTime":2073.081,"body":"comes down at this point to a query level."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2073.091,"endTime":2075.601,"body":"What outcomes are your queries driving?"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2076.041,"endTime":2079.371,"body":"And so what I mean by that is that"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2076.041,"endTime":2079.371,"body":"there's, we've sort of been talking about"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2079.971,"endTime":2082.281,"body":"the, the first step in the process, right?"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2082.281,"endTime":2088.481,"body":"Data quality, the foundation layer,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2082.281,"endTime":2088.481,"body":"what exactly are the services?"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2088.481,"endTime":2090.921,"body":"And, you know, if it's a search service,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2088.481,"endTime":2090.921,"body":"if it's a bot, if it's an agent, if"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2090.921,"endTime":2094.001,"body":"it's what, you know, application,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2090.921,"endTime":2094.001,"body":"whatever, what are the things"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2094.011,"endTime":2098.411,"body":"that is supplying that foundation,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2094.011,"endTime":2098.411,"body":"both in the training of a model."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2098.731,"endTime":2100.701,"body":"The fine tuning, the"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2098.731,"endTime":2100.701,"body":"grounding, all of that."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2101.531,"endTime":2104.931,"body":"now, particularly as we're moving, as I"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2101.531,"endTime":2104.931,"body":"mentioned, into this much more autonomous"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2104.931,"endTime":2111.801,"body":"agentic space where humans are unlikely"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2104.931,"endTime":2111.801,"body":"to be always in the loop, at least,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2112.111,"endTime":2116.631,"body":"that's the dream, the vision we're all"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2112.111,"endTime":2116.631,"body":"trying, we're all striving for at least,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2116.811,"endTime":2119.051,"body":"or at least some people are, some people"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2116.811,"endTime":2119.051,"body":"I know are a little afraid of that."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2119.481,"endTime":2121.741,"body":"I think you also then need to understand."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2122.561,"endTime":2127.927,"body":"a very clear level, what are the steps"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2122.561,"endTime":2127.927,"body":"that you've built up to that point?"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2128.097,"endTime":2130.607,"body":"What actions are they going to induce?"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2131.007,"endTime":2134.387,"body":"So I think something that's, you"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2131.007,"endTime":2134.387,"body":"know, we've experienced this firsthand"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2134.387,"endTime":2138.227,"body":"in some of my previous jobs is that"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2134.387,"endTime":2138.227,"body":"we had a certain expectation that"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2138.227,"endTime":2145.131,"body":"say, know, the, we had built, an AI"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2138.227,"endTime":2145.131,"body":"agent to order food from DoorDash."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2145.171,"endTime":2146.961,"body":"And we had a certain expectation"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2145.171,"endTime":2146.961,"body":"of how that would work."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2146.961,"endTime":2149.331,"body":"And, you know, you kind of started"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2146.961,"endTime":2149.331,"body":"testing, you put into the world."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2150.201,"endTime":2155.821,"body":"a whole set of strange edge cases that"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2150.201,"endTime":2155.821,"body":"you can't predict if you haven't done"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2155.821,"endTime":2159.221,"body":"the work of sort of fully going end"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2155.821,"endTime":2159.221,"body":"to end and understanding that it's"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2159.221,"endTime":2163.881,"body":"like, oh, well, like what happens if,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2159.221,"endTime":2163.881,"body":"you know, the restaurant's closed?"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2163.881,"endTime":2169.541,"body":"What happens if the driver, uh, doesn't"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2163.881,"endTime":2169.541,"body":"show up the way that they're supposed to?"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2169.541,"endTime":2172.461,"body":"What happens if this item"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2169.541,"endTime":2172.461,"body":"is no longer on the menu?"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2172.471,"endTime":2174.611,"body":"You know, all of those"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2172.471,"endTime":2174.611,"body":"different scenarios."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2175.041,"endTime":2178.531,"body":"And I feel like something that"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2175.041,"endTime":2178.531,"body":"like operating in this new world."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2179.701,"endTime":2182.831,"body":"Usually it's like you build an"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2179.701,"endTime":2182.831,"body":"application, you take in data about"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2182.831,"endTime":2185.551,"body":"its usage, you kind of understand"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2182.831,"endTime":2185.551,"body":"each of those elements, you have some"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2185.551,"endTime":2189.051,"body":"control over that, that like that"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2185.551,"endTime":2189.051,"body":"whole playbook is completely out."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2189.111,"endTime":2192.311,"body":"And so something that I feel like people"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2189.111,"endTime":2192.311,"body":"are sort of skipping right now that are in"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2192.311,"endTime":2198.136,"body":"sort of the early stages is, Really taking"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2192.311,"endTime":2198.136,"body":"the process end to end and like pausing"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2198.136,"endTime":2202.236,"body":"to understand what are the outcomes that"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2198.136,"endTime":2202.236,"body":"I'm actually driving towards and do I"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2202.246,"endTime":2206.726,"body":"have then each of the steps in place to"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2202.246,"endTime":2206.726,"body":"allow a successful outcome to happen."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2207.897,"endTime":2208.687,"body":"That makes a lot of sense."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2208.687,"endTime":2210.127,"body":"Your example too makes me smile."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2210.137,"endTime":2213.367,"body":"The idea of having to innovate"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2210.137,"endTime":2213.367,"body":"on all the edge cases when doing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2213.367,"endTime":2214.527,"body":"something like ordering a pizza."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2214.567,"endTime":2215.497,"body":"That's so true."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2217.217,"endTime":2217.617,"body":"But also,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2217.726,"endTime":2220.856,"body":"that I feel that"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2217.726,"endTime":2220.856,"body":"acutely whenever I watch the ads"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2221.356,"endTime":2225.046,"body":"for Salesforce's agent force where"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2221.356,"endTime":2225.046,"body":"Matthew McConaughey is sitting in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2225.057,"endTime":2225.597,"body":"yes,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2226.291,"endTime":2228.101,"body":"An"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2226.291,"endTime":2228.101,"body":"agent didn't book his table."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2228.371,"endTime":2231.741,"body":"And I always think I'm like, yes,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2228.371,"endTime":2231.741,"body":"but obviously the hostess wouldn't"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2231.741,"endTime":2232.801,"body":"have just sat him in the rain."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2232.801,"endTime":2237.541,"body":"This is actually an area where a"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2232.801,"endTime":2237.541,"body":"human would do that more effectively"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2237.541,"endTime":2241.041,"body":"than an AI, because a human"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2237.541,"endTime":2241.041,"body":"would just see that it's raining."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2241.401,"endTime":2241.631,"body":"And"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2241.807,"endTime":2242.367,"body":"right."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2242.521,"endTime":2244.731,"body":"always, I'm like,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2242.521,"endTime":2244.731,"body":"that's a really great example in my"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2244.731,"endTime":2248.851,"body":"mind of, of why agents are actually"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2244.731,"endTime":2248.851,"body":"not quite ready for prime time and"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2248.851,"endTime":2252.581,"body":"the work that you need to do to cover"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2248.851,"endTime":2252.581,"body":"all of those scenarios, because if"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2252.581,"endTime":2254.251,"body":"we were actually ready for the agent."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2254.691,"endTime":2258.881,"body":"To sit people at tables, we would have"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2254.691,"endTime":2258.881,"body":"to plan for those things and they might"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2258.881,"endTime":2263.361,"body":"not be very good at it relative to just"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2258.881,"endTime":2263.361,"body":"hostess who can see that it's raining."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2263.617,"endTime":2265.557,"body":"There's a lot of,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2263.617,"endTime":2265.557,"body":"there's a lot of hidden inputs"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2265.597,"endTime":2267.067,"body":"that we take for granted as humans."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2267.097,"endTime":2268.587,"body":"Like we can glance outside."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2268.597,"endTime":2269.517,"body":"We can know it's raining."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2269.517,"endTime":2272.067,"body":"If you're like me, your elbow"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2269.517,"endTime":2272.067,"body":"kind of creaks when it's raining."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2272.067,"endTime":2275.987,"body":"So like, you know when it's raining"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2272.067,"endTime":2275.987,"body":"and so, but an LLM doesn't have a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2275.987,"endTime":2277.927,"body":"creaky elbow and it can't look outside."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2278.317,"endTime":2280.557,"body":"Um, it might be able to query the weather."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2280.582,"endTime":2283.322,"body":"Channel or otherwise get some"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2280.582,"endTime":2283.322,"body":"weather data for you, but."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2283.652,"endTime":2285.552,"body":"Probably can't fully"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2283.652,"endTime":2285.552,"body":"predict if it's raining."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2285.562,"endTime":2288.512,"body":"And, and also your example is great"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2285.562,"endTime":2288.512,"body":"because it talks about stakes again."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2288.802,"endTime":2291.152,"body":"You know, we're talking about the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2288.802,"endTime":2291.152,"body":"stakes of what you're trying to do."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2291.352,"endTime":2294.292,"body":"That example, you know, brings a smile"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2291.352,"endTime":2294.292,"body":"on my face about ordering a pizza and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2294.302,"endTime":2295.722,"body":"all the things that could go wrong."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2295.952,"endTime":2299.318,"body":"Well, what if you're trying to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2295.952,"endTime":2299.318,"body":"use an LLM during like, maybe it's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2299.318,"endTime":2302.443,"body":"used as part of like, Any kind"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2299.318,"endTime":2302.443,"body":"of, like, medical booking process."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2302.703,"endTime":2306.193,"body":"Imagine it trying to make a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2302.703,"endTime":2306.193,"body":"decision or a flow otherwise around"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2306.203,"endTime":2308.153,"body":"trying to get proper medical care."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2308.283,"endTime":2311.653,"body":"when you start implementing it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2308.283,"endTime":2311.653,"body":"into higher stakes workflows, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2311.653,"endTime":2316.263,"body":"have to have done your homework and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2311.653,"endTime":2316.263,"body":"understand how things can go wrong."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2316.293,"endTime":2320.143,"body":"And I think that ultimately"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2316.293,"endTime":2320.143,"body":"comes from domain expertise."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2320.333,"endTime":2320.713,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2320.727,"endTime":2321.077,"body":"Completely."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2321.077,"endTime":2326.197,"body":"Well, this is an area too, where I,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2321.077,"endTime":2326.197,"body":"I often butt heads with others in the"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2326.197,"endTime":2331.497,"body":"industry who take the viewpoint that,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2326.197,"endTime":2331.497,"body":"know, innovation for innovation's"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2331.497,"endTime":2334.967,"body":"sake is always a good idea and that"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2331.497,"endTime":2334.967,"body":"we should move as quickly as possible."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2334.977,"endTime":2339.227,"body":"And, you know, people who are not quite"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2334.977,"endTime":2339.227,"body":"ready to embrace the AI revolution"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2339.237,"endTime":2344.267,"body":"are to set in a certain worldview"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2339.237,"endTime":2344.267,"body":"that it's about to be completely"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2344.267,"endTime":2345.837,"body":"upended, all of these other things."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2345.947,"endTime":2348.457,"body":"And as I said, I am, I'm"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2345.947,"endTime":2348.457,"body":"general, I am an AI optimist."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2348.457,"endTime":2350.987,"body":"I'm not afraid of robot overlords."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2351.017,"endTime":2354.947,"body":"I believe that this is ultimately going"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2351.017,"endTime":2354.947,"body":"to be a net positive for humanity."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2355.367,"endTime":2359.962,"body":"But where I do buttheads with others in"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2355.367,"endTime":2359.962,"body":"my industry and disagree is There are"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2359.962,"endTime":2364.582,"body":"so many use cases right now where like,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2359.962,"endTime":2364.582,"body":"close enough is just not good enough."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2364.582,"endTime":2368.172,"body":"And you mentioned healthcare, you know,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2364.582,"endTime":2368.172,"body":"there, there are many others, finance,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2368.172,"endTime":2373.042,"body":"manufacturing, anything where the stakes"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2368.172,"endTime":2373.042,"body":"are more than just, did your table get"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2373.042,"endTime":2374.752,"body":"sat in the rain or did you order a pizza?"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2375.142,"endTime":2375.792,"body":"And."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2377.132,"endTime":2380.972,"body":"I think a lot of folks have sort of"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2377.132,"endTime":2380.972,"body":"looked at the LLMs as sort of this magical"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2380.982,"endTime":2385.712,"body":"tool and have had positive experience"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2380.982,"endTime":2385.712,"body":"with LLMs and see that the models are"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2385.712,"endTime":2389.322,"body":"improving and see that they're getting"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2385.712,"endTime":2389.322,"body":"closer and closer to perfect accuracy,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2389.782,"endTime":2391.612,"body":"but they're not at perfect accuracy."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2391.892,"endTime":2396.452,"body":"And, you know, within that, Whatever"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2391.892,"endTime":2396.452,"body":"it is, you know, even if it's 0."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2396.453,"endTime":2397.932,"body":"1%, it's certainly not a 0."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2397.932,"endTime":2400.102,"body":"1%. I mean, I think for many things"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2397.932,"endTime":2400.102,"body":"there, it's closer to more like,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2400.152,"endTime":2404.472,"body":"you know, 20 percent of, of, of the"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2400.152,"endTime":2404.472,"body":"time you're not quite getting a high"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2404.472,"endTime":2408.202,"body":"quality answer, even if it's not a"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2404.472,"endTime":2408.202,"body":"full hallucination, that's problematic."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2408.202,"endTime":2413.312,"body":"The space for edge cases is then just"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2408.202,"endTime":2413.312,"body":"significant and gets exponential."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2413.662,"endTime":2415.712,"body":"And the stakes are just too high."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2415.782,"endTime":2418.052,"body":"And, we talked to a"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2415.782,"endTime":2418.052,"body":"lot of enterprises who."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2418.597,"endTime":2424.477,"body":"Would benefit from the use of"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2418.597,"endTime":2424.477,"body":"AI, but can't take the full risk"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2424.487,"endTime":2429.667,"body":"of it's completely autonomous"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2424.487,"endTime":2429.667,"body":"and all, all decisions are being"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2429.667,"endTime":2430.977,"body":"driven out of an AI system."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2430.987,"endTime":2432.557,"body":"There, there has to be a range."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2432.617,"endTime":2435.727,"body":"And, you know, again, going back to that"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2432.617,"endTime":2435.727,"body":"New York Times example, I mean, they,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2436.137,"endTime":2441.447,"body":"they clearly have decided that it's worth"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2436.137,"endTime":2441.447,"body":"augmenting the performance of their,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2441.637,"endTime":2445.977,"body":"you know, journalists, but it is not"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2441.637,"endTime":2445.977,"body":"worth creating all their articles with"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2445.977,"endTime":2448.987,"body":"AI because there's still a degree in"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2445.977,"endTime":2448.987,"body":"which human expertise is going to matter."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2449.953,"endTime":2450.803,"body":"I completely agree."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2450.803,"endTime":2455.133,"body":"It's about understanding the levels and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2450.803,"endTime":2455.133,"body":"also the nuances within your business"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2455.133,"endTime":2460.203,"body":"and how to best leverage it, but also"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2455.133,"endTime":2460.203,"body":"how to get the most reliable results."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2460.203,"endTime":2462.723,"body":"And that's why I'm so grateful for this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2460.203,"endTime":2462.723,"body":"conversation because you've given us"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2462.723,"endTime":2465.003,"body":"such a really like Thorough Playbook."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2465.193,"endTime":2469.763,"body":"An understanding at the beginning how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2465.193,"endTime":2469.763,"body":"data impacts trust and how you can"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2469.773,"endTime":2473.143,"body":"build impact through your systems by"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2469.773,"endTime":2473.143,"body":"understanding what goes into them."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2473.403,"endTime":2477.513,"body":"You know, we talked a bit about building"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2473.403,"endTime":2477.513,"body":"and uncertainty, being able to innovate."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2477.563,"endTime":2481.483,"body":"And ultimately, you know, we keep circling"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2477.563,"endTime":2481.483,"body":"this point of talking about the stakes,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2481.753,"endTime":2483.253,"body":"uh, which is really, really great."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2483.253,"endTime":2487.073,"body":"It's really powerful takeaway that, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2483.253,"endTime":2487.073,"body":"know, in our audience, I know a lot of our"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2487.073,"endTime":2488.623,"body":"listeners, they really resonate with this."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2489.163,"endTime":2493.602,"body":"We're talking about folks who work"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2489.163,"endTime":2493.602,"body":"in engineering industries that are in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2493.602,"endTime":2496.922,"body":"scenarios where, you know, everything"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2493.602,"endTime":2496.922,"body":"needs to be taken into account."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2496.942,"endTime":2500.712,"body":"And if something goes wrong,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2496.942,"endTime":2500.712,"body":"those stakes are really big."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2500.722,"endTime":2505.642,"body":"So when you're weighing, you know, all of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2500.722,"endTime":2505.642,"body":"the pressure of implementing AI in this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2505.642,"endTime":2509.822,"body":"scenario, it's really great to get, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2505.642,"endTime":2509.822,"body":"know, perspectives like yours and kind of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2509.862,"endTime":2511.602,"body":"understand how other teams are doing it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2512.042,"endTime":2516.127,"body":"before we wrap up, I know you were talking"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2512.042,"endTime":2516.127,"body":"about some of your opinions on AI and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2516.127,"endTime":2520.097,"body":"where we're going as a world, and where"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2516.127,"endTime":2520.097,"body":"can our audience, where can they go"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2520.097,"endTime":2522.247,"body":"to learn more about you and InFactory?"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2522.521,"endTime":2526.211,"body":"Yeah, so"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2522.521,"endTime":2526.211,"body":"infactory.ai would be the first place"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2526.221,"endTime":2530.271,"body":"to start, if you message us, uh, I,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2526.221,"endTime":2530.271,"body":"I see everything that comes through."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2530.271,"endTime":2534.201,"body":"So even though, um, you know, we're,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2530.271,"endTime":2534.201,"body":"we're working with large enterprises, I,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2534.491,"endTime":2538.191,"body":"I take a direct interest in particular"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2534.491,"endTime":2538.191,"body":"with what the developer community is"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2538.191,"endTime":2540.341,"body":"doing and what engineers are working on."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2540.341,"endTime":2542.641,"body":"And, you know, we, we've really built."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2543.676,"endTime":2548.326,"body":"entire product with developers top of"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2543.676,"endTime":2548.326,"body":"mind, because we've lived that, right?"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2548.326,"endTime":2552.936,"body":"Like we've, we've seen the challenges of"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2548.326,"endTime":2552.936,"body":"what it takes to build high stakes AI."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2553.206,"endTime":2556.566,"body":"The challenges that come from"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2553.206,"endTime":2556.566,"body":"business leaders who think that, uh,"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2556.606,"endTime":2558.436,"body":"LMs can solve all their problems."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2558.476,"endTime":2562.116,"body":"And we really want to help, folks that"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2558.476,"endTime":2562.116,"body":"are building in this space who, who"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2562.116,"endTime":2563.316,"body":"believe that there's a way to do this."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2563.316,"endTime":2563.516,"body":"That's."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2564.191,"endTime":2565.441,"body":"Trustworthy and effective."},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2565.451,"endTime":2569.124,"body":"So, I love engaging with, with people"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2565.451,"endTime":2569.124,"body":"that are building cool and interesting"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2569.124,"endTime":2574.104,"body":"things who want to build it in a way"},{"speaker":"Brooke Hartley Moy","startTime":2569.124,"endTime":2574.104,"body":"that feels inherently safe and important."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2574.965,"endTime":2575.415,"body":"Awesome."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2575.435,"endTime":2578.135,"body":"We'll make sure we get that link in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2575.435,"endTime":2578.135,"body":"the show notes for our listeners."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2578.185,"endTime":2580.965,"body":"I also recommend to our listeners"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2578.185,"endTime":2580.965,"body":"check out Brooke on LinkedIn."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2581.295,"endTime":2582.755,"body":"I've been following"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2581.295,"endTime":2582.755,"body":"Brooke for a little while."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2582.755,"endTime":2583.505,"body":"I love her posts."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2583.505,"endTime":2585.315,"body":"They're really, really fun and insightful."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2585.615,"endTime":2588.507,"body":"And just like this conversation,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2585.615,"endTime":2588.507,"body":"you know, Brooke  always talks"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2588.534,"endTime":2590.184,"body":"like a human in an AI world."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2590.184,"endTime":2594.264,"body":"So it's great to get a perspective, that's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2590.184,"endTime":2594.264,"body":"like deeply resonant with what's going on."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2594.554,"endTime":2596.274,"body":"That's it for today's episode."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2596.314,"endTime":2599.704,"body":"And to you, our loyal listener,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2596.314,"endTime":2599.704,"body":"thanks for making it this far."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2600.004,"endTime":2604.004,"body":"If you enjoyed this episode, please"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2600.004,"endTime":2604.004,"body":"subscribe, share, you know, Send this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2604.004,"endTime":2607.634,"body":"to anyone you may know who could get"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2604.004,"endTime":2607.634,"body":"something out of today's episode."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2607.634,"endTime":2609.174,"body":"We'd also love to hear"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2607.634,"endTime":2609.174,"body":"from you on socials."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2609.184,"endTime":2612.494,"body":"So come bug us, come poke us,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2609.184,"endTime":2612.494,"body":"come leave us a nice comment."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2612.774,"endTime":2614.454,"body":"I'd love to hear what y'all are thinking."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2614.714,"endTime":2615.754,"body":"And see you next time."}]}