{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":6.054,"endTime":7.314,"body":"Welcome to Dev Interrupted."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":7.584,"endTime":9.014,"body":"I'm your host, Andrew Zigler."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":9.71,"endTime":11.42,"body":"And I'm"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":9.71,"endTime":11.42,"body":"your host Ben Lloyd Pearson."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":11.854,"endTime":14.254,"body":"This week we're talking"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":11.854,"endTime":14.254,"body":"about Claude's new learning mode."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":14.524,"endTime":19.264,"body":"Microsoft's original source code"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":14.524,"endTime":19.264,"body":"in Shopify's controversial AI memo."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":19.714,"endTime":21.454,"body":"Ben, what catches your attention?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":22.27,"endTime":24.09,"body":"Well, because"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":22.27,"endTime":24.09,"body":"I've already had some conversations"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":24.09,"endTime":25.38,"body":"on social about this one."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":25.38,"endTime":28.44,"body":"I want to talk about this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":25.38,"endTime":28.44,"body":"Shopify memo 'cause I, I think it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":28.44,"endTime":29.85,"body":"actually is a pretty good story."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":29.85,"endTime":30.982,"body":"So, tell us about it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":31.417,"endTime":34.937,"body":"so the CEO of Shopify,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":31.417,"endTime":34.937,"body":"releases an internal memo saying"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":34.937,"endTime":38.267,"body":"that staffers, they, they need to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":34.937,"endTime":38.267,"body":"prove that jobs can't be done by"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":38.267,"endTime":43.157,"body":"AI before asking for more headcount"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":38.267,"endTime":43.157,"body":"or more people to join their team."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":43.351,"endTime":47.966,"body":"so this obviously has a. Variety"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":43.351,"endTime":47.966,"body":"of reactions from folks within"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":48.236,"endTime":50.786,"body":"Shopify, many of which have,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":48.236,"endTime":50.786,"body":"taken online to talk about it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":50.786,"endTime":53.606,"body":"And it feels like the whole tech"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":50.786,"endTime":53.606,"body":"industry is kind of spectating"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":53.606,"endTime":56.966,"body":"and commenting on this mandate"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":53.606,"endTime":56.966,"body":"that's happened within Shopify."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":57.313,"endTime":61.243,"body":"Um, my take on it is just looking at"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":57.313,"endTime":61.243,"body":"it, you know, it's a good idea, maybe"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":61.243,"endTime":63.223,"body":"taken to a bit of a functional extreme."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":63.503,"endTime":67.883,"body":"how do you prove that a job can"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":63.503,"endTime":67.883,"body":"be done by ai and if a job exists"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":67.883,"endTime":69.923,"body":"right now, but AI can do it in."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":69.983,"endTime":70.733,"body":"Six months."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":70.733,"endTime":74.723,"body":"What then, you know, how do you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":70.733,"endTime":74.723,"body":"really justify the longevity of a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":74.723,"endTime":76.683,"body":"headcount in that kind of space."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":76.773,"endTime":80.239,"body":"And more importantly, after reading"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":76.773,"endTime":80.239,"body":"the memo, it kind of sparked a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":80.239,"endTime":81.289,"body":"little bit of curiosity in me."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":81.289,"endTime":84.859,"body":"I'm kind of wondering like, what are"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":81.289,"endTime":84.859,"body":"the workflows at Shopify now that are"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":84.859,"endTime":86.809,"body":"performing this kind of AI powered work?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":86.809,"endTime":88.549,"body":"Like what kind of impact"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":86.809,"endTime":88.549,"body":"is that driving for them?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":88.549,"endTime":89.479,"body":"I'd be curious to know."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":89.645,"endTime":90.665,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":90.755,"endTime":95.08,"body":"And you know, I actually kind of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":90.755,"endTime":95.08,"body":"agree with, with Tobias Lutke, the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":95.24,"endTime":99.135,"body":"CEO of Shopify with his general"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":95.24,"endTime":99.135,"body":"sentiment that, AI really is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":99.255,"endTime":101.595,"body":"fundamentally disrupting knowledge work."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":101.955,"endTime":104.565,"body":"And, you know, like many skills,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":101.955,"endTime":104.565,"body":"I think this is a muscle, like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":104.565,"endTime":105.825,"body":"you need to develop it over time."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":106.545,"endTime":110.475,"body":"really need to work with it regularly"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":106.545,"endTime":110.475,"body":"in your workflow so that you normalize"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":110.475,"endTime":112.365,"body":"and habitualize the practice."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":112.365,"endTime":115.512,"body":"And the harsh truth is that like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":112.365,"endTime":115.512,"body":"if you're not doing that today,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":115.512,"endTime":119.592,"body":"then you're risking being replaced"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":115.512,"endTime":119.592,"body":"by others who are doing that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":119.985,"endTime":123.825,"body":"I'm not even just talking about your"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":119.985,"endTime":123.825,"body":"job, like competition is thinking"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":123.825,"endTime":127.005,"body":"about these types of things and they"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":123.825,"endTime":127.005,"body":"may already be taking action on it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":127.405,"endTime":131.059,"body":"but I also wanna point out that this kind"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":127.405,"endTime":131.059,"body":"of highlights the disconnect between like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":131.089,"endTime":135.199,"body":"executives and individual contributors"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":131.089,"endTime":135.199,"body":"that we talked about last week."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":135.229,"endTime":136.129,"body":"how do you prove a negative?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":136.129,"endTime":138.709,"body":"Like how do you prove"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":136.129,"endTime":138.709,"body":"that AI can't do the job?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":138.799,"endTime":139.189,"body":"You know?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":139.629,"endTime":142.589,"body":"like Lutke mentioned, they gave"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":139.629,"endTime":142.589,"body":"their employees a chat bot."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":142.689,"endTime":146.459,"body":"and you know, we've discussed on"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":142.689,"endTime":146.459,"body":"multiple occasions, how chat really is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":146.459,"endTime":148.839,"body":"not the best interface for these ai."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":149.113,"endTime":149.403,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":149.545,"endTime":150.565,"body":"and if"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":149.545,"endTime":150.565,"body":"that's all you're doing then"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":150.565,"endTime":151.765,"body":"like that's, that's not enough."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":151.765,"endTime":153.655,"body":"Like you need to be giving your employees."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":154.085,"endTime":156.335,"body":"a lot more support, a lot"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":154.085,"endTime":156.335,"body":"more tooling than that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":156.335,"endTime":159.395,"body":"And, you know, I'm not saying that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":156.335,"endTime":159.395,"body":"Shopify is not, 'cause I just, what"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":159.395,"endTime":162.875,"body":"I'm seeing from them, I actually think"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":159.395,"endTime":162.875,"body":"that they have done a pretty good job,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":163.065,"endTime":165.315,"body":"incorporating AI into their workflows."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":165.685,"endTime":167.875,"body":"but it's gotta be more"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":165.685,"endTime":167.875,"body":"than, than a chat bot."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":168.359,"endTime":171.059,"body":"Yeah, I, I see we're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":168.359,"endTime":171.059,"body":"speculating about it in the same way."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":171.059,"endTime":173.939,"body":"So, you know, we'd love to have"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":171.059,"endTime":173.939,"body":"someone from Shopify maybe in the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":173.939,"endTime":177.359,"body":"future, come on and tell us about,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":173.939,"endTime":177.359,"body":"hey, ai, AI is transforming them."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":177.639,"endTime":181.249,"body":"I think there's a story there for sure,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":177.639,"endTime":181.249,"body":"that we could all possibly learn from."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":182.1,"endTime":182.31,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":182.31,"endTime":185.749,"body":"And I wanna take a moment just real"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":182.31,"endTime":185.749,"body":"quick to plug a personality quiz."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":185.749,"endTime":188.119,"body":"We published, around AI collaboration."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":188.119,"endTime":192.879,"body":"So if you've ever wondered how effective"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":188.119,"endTime":192.879,"body":"have I been at, at adopting AI in using"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":192.879,"endTime":195.814,"body":"the new generation of tools, we have"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":192.879,"endTime":195.814,"body":"this really cool quiz that we'll put"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":196.089,"endTime":197.439,"body":"in the show notes that you can take."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":197.659,"endTime":199.609,"body":"it takes just a couple"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":197.659,"endTime":199.609,"body":"of minutes to find out."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":199.802,"endTime":202.802,"body":"but we've already started to find"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":199.802,"endTime":202.802,"body":"some really interesting things from"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":202.802,"endTime":204.302,"body":"some of our early respondents on this."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":204.302,"endTime":211.352,"body":"specifically 79% of our respondents so"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":204.302,"endTime":211.352,"body":"far are still in the AI newbie category."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":211.352,"endTime":212.792,"body":"So this is a category of people"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":212.926,"endTime":213.146,"body":"Huh."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":213.362,"endTime":216.662,"body":"have barely"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":213.362,"endTime":216.662,"body":"gotten AI into their workflows,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":216.932,"endTime":218.282,"body":"and I think this is the norm."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":218.282,"endTime":222.222,"body":"So don't feel like you're like completely"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":218.282,"endTime":222.222,"body":"left behind if you haven't, adopted ai."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":223.072,"endTime":225.512,"body":"it's kind of interesting to see"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":223.072,"endTime":225.512,"body":"some of the adoption, patterns that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":225.583,"endTime":226.873,"body":"are emerging from this as well."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":226.873,"endTime":232.253,"body":"Like, the people who are being successful"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":226.873,"endTime":232.253,"body":"are finding some repeatable, generation"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":232.253,"endTime":236.033,"body":"type activities, like generating code,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":232.253,"endTime":236.033,"body":"generating docs, generating tests,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":236.333,"endTime":240.263,"body":"like they're getting success with those"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":236.333,"endTime":240.263,"body":"before trying to move on to other things"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":240.263,"endTime":242.303,"body":"within the software delivery lifecycle."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":242.633,"endTime":245.513,"body":"'cause to be frank, we've seen quite"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":242.633,"endTime":245.513,"body":"a few of the categories within this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":245.513,"endTime":248.273,"body":"quiz that nobody or practically nobody."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":248.513,"endTime":252.773,"body":"Is using AI for it yet, even like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":248.513,"endTime":252.773,"body":"in collaboration, like AI just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":252.773,"endTime":256.283,"body":"hasn't even shown up in those"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":252.773,"endTime":256.283,"body":"parts of their workflow yet."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":256.283,"endTime":259.403,"body":"So if you wanna know where you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":256.283,"endTime":259.403,"body":"stand on this journey, head over"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":259.403,"endTime":260.603,"body":"to the show notes, take that quiz."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":260.603,"endTime":261.533,"body":"It's really fun."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":261.533,"endTime":264.593,"body":"It can teach you something about yourself"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":261.533,"endTime":264.593,"body":"and help you understand where you are."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":264.974,"endTime":266.024,"body":"So what's our next story, Andrew?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":266.643,"endTime":268.653,"body":"Oh, well the next"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":266.643,"endTime":268.653,"body":"one I'm really excited to talk about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":268.683,"endTime":271.353,"body":"this is, uh, something that's really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":268.683,"endTime":271.353,"body":"near and dear to me, and this is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":271.353,"endTime":275.499,"body":"talking about how Anthropic is kind"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":271.353,"endTime":275.499,"body":"of, um, turning the table on how,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":275.539,"endTime":280.829,"body":"students engage with ai, and how it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":275.539,"endTime":280.829,"body":"can unlock opportunities for learning."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":280.829,"endTime":284.681,"body":"So Claude just uh, rolled out a new"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":280.829,"endTime":284.681,"body":"learning mode, that kind of put students."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":285.161,"endTime":287.171,"body":"In the position of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":285.161,"endTime":287.171,"body":"doing the hard thinking."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":287.481,"endTime":292.351,"body":"this goes back to how education has always"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":287.481,"endTime":292.351,"body":"worked is that it's always best if you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":292.351,"endTime":296.791,"body":"get that personalized hands-on attention"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":292.351,"endTime":296.791,"body":"that's tailored for you and what you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":296.791,"endTime":300.751,"body":"are interested in, that's always going"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":296.791,"endTime":300.751,"body":"to do better and engage a student more."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":300.901,"endTime":301.951,"body":"So that really highlights."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":302.091,"endTime":304.911,"body":"This opportunity that's sitting"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":302.091,"endTime":304.911,"body":"right in front of us with ai."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":305.211,"endTime":308.661,"body":"And you know, as a former classroom"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":305.211,"endTime":308.661,"body":"teacher, I actually see a lot of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":308.661,"endTime":312.601,"body":"potential and I'm really thrilled,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":308.661,"endTime":312.601,"body":"that major players in the AI space"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":312.601,"endTime":315.781,"body":"are taking this seriously and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":312.601,"endTime":315.781,"body":"thinking about, hey, how this can"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":315.781,"endTime":318.631,"body":"transform education for our future."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":318.901,"endTime":320.371,"body":"I think every student would."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":320.616,"endTime":321.576,"body":"Benefit from it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":321.846,"endTime":325.121,"body":"And you know, it even goes back"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":321.846,"endTime":325.121,"body":"to a talk that I heard last week."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":325.311,"endTime":328.551,"body":"this was our Atlassian team, which we're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":325.311,"endTime":328.551,"body":"gonna talk about a little more later."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":328.741,"endTime":333.601,"body":"I listened to a talk by Sal Khan of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":328.741,"endTime":333.601,"body":"Khan Academy and Ben Gomez, the, SVP"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":333.601,"endTime":335.671,"body":"of Learning and Education at Google."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":335.941,"endTime":340.321,"body":"So these are two great minds that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":335.941,"endTime":340.321,"body":"have built education giants that help"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":340.321,"endTime":344.821,"body":"prepare people for the world and educate"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":340.321,"endTime":344.821,"body":"them and equip them with real skills."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":344.941,"endTime":348.481,"body":"And they're seeing the value"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":344.941,"endTime":348.481,"body":"in using ai exactly like."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":348.486,"endTime":353.766,"body":"This to build products and to build"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":348.486,"endTime":353.766,"body":"educational experiences that speak"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":353.766,"endTime":355.266,"body":"to the student on their level."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":355.346,"endTime":357.926,"body":"you know, if you have a student"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":355.346,"endTime":357.926,"body":"and you ask them, oh, you know, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":357.926,"endTime":361.556,"body":"want to be a doctor, here's why you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":357.926,"endTime":361.556,"body":"should still care about literature."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":361.776,"endTime":365.946,"body":"A great teacher can make those connections"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":361.776,"endTime":365.946,"body":"for the student and help them have a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":365.946,"endTime":370.116,"body":"well-rounded education or, you know,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":365.946,"endTime":370.116,"body":"you want to be a Formula One driver."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":370.266,"endTime":374.796,"body":"Here's why you should really care"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":370.266,"endTime":374.796,"body":"about physics, Like what better way"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":374.796,"endTime":379.086,"body":"to engage a student and make them"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":374.796,"endTime":379.086,"body":"really care about the subject matter."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":379.622,"endTime":381.332,"body":"Yeah, and I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":379.622,"endTime":381.332,"body":"love, I love how this story sort of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":381.332,"endTime":385.112,"body":"flips the script on, I think how a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":381.332,"endTime":385.112,"body":"lot of people have normalized ai."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":385.172,"endTime":389.432,"body":"Like today, AI is used a lot, or when"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":385.172,"endTime":389.432,"body":"it's used a lot of the times, it just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":389.432,"endTime":392.642,"body":"reinforces whatever you feed into"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":389.432,"endTime":392.642,"body":"it, you know, whatever you tell it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":392.642,"endTime":394.172,"body":"to tell you, it will tell you that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":394.592,"endTime":398.042,"body":"And they sort of flip the script"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":394.592,"endTime":398.042,"body":"and use it to challenge you now,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":398.042,"endTime":399.692,"body":"which I think is a really critical."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":399.787,"endTime":400.987,"body":"way to use AI."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":401.396,"endTime":401.756,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":401.827,"endTime":403.567,"body":"mention like this,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":401.827,"endTime":403.567,"body":"this is really cool 'cause it, it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":403.567,"endTime":406.417,"body":"actually, the geek in me loves this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":403.567,"endTime":406.417,"body":"'cause it brings us like one step"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":406.417,"endTime":410.677,"body":"closer to the education system that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":406.417,"endTime":410.677,"body":"they have in the book Enders game where"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":410.831,"endTime":412.271,"body":"Yes, yes,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":412.597,"endTime":416.317,"body":"with like AI that,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":412.597,"endTime":416.317,"body":"that like adapts to them and like teaches"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":416.317,"endTime":418.087,"body":"them what they need to know individually."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":418.087,"endTime":419.677,"body":"Like, that's like, that's brilliant to me."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":419.677,"endTime":420.277,"body":"I love that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":420.911,"endTime":421.421,"body":"yes."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":421.421,"endTime":422.621,"body":"I thought the same exact thing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":422.621,"endTime":425.231,"body":"Actually, just having that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":422.621,"endTime":425.231,"body":"personalized attention, that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":425.231,"endTime":428.116,"body":"personalized tutor, is gonna give"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":425.231,"endTime":428.116,"body":"you so much of a leg up in life."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":428.636,"endTime":429.056,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":429.106,"endTime":431.786,"body":"and I feel like really what"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":429.106,"endTime":431.786,"body":"this is showing us is we've only"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":431.786,"endTime":435.456,"body":"scratched the surface on how AI is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":431.786,"endTime":435.456,"body":"gonna change, the world around us."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":435.799,"endTime":437.929,"body":"there's been a lot of disruptions from ai."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":437.929,"endTime":441.379,"body":"Like we've seen this with like how it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":437.929,"endTime":441.379,"body":"disrupting a lot of creative fields."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":441.799,"endTime":444.589,"body":"Um, but what happens when those people"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":441.799,"endTime":444.589,"body":"start getting access to this stuff that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":444.589,"endTime":448.459,"body":"like, just revolutionizes how they can"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":444.589,"endTime":448.459,"body":"work, You know, an education system where"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":448.459,"endTime":450.079,"body":"everyone's got a tutor in their pocket."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":450.079,"endTime":453.379,"body":"that's an extraordinary thing to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":450.079,"endTime":453.379,"body":"think about I think there's a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":453.379,"endTime":457.844,"body":"applications that we're gonna see emerge,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":453.379,"endTime":457.844,"body":"like therapy, personal health, nutrition."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":458.534,"endTime":461.704,"body":"I think really the thing to take"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":458.534,"endTime":461.704,"body":"away from this is that, we hear a lot"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":461.704,"endTime":466.564,"body":"about how junior devs are maybe in a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":461.704,"endTime":466.564,"body":"tough spot because AI is really, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":466.564,"endTime":469.444,"body":"know, more of a force multiplier for"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":466.564,"endTime":469.444,"body":"people who are experts, for people"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":469.444,"endTime":470.764,"body":"who have been around for a while."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":471.094,"endTime":474.934,"body":"And if a junior Dev is just sort of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":471.094,"endTime":474.934,"body":"blindly using AI and not using it to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":474.934,"endTime":479.174,"body":"challenge themselves, then there's a real"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":474.934,"endTime":479.174,"body":"risk that, they're going to just not learn"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":479.174,"endTime":483.114,"body":"the right skills, the right knowledge"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":479.174,"endTime":483.114,"body":"to level up to that senior level."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":483.114,"endTime":485.874,"body":"So, yeah, I think it's just a great"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":483.114,"endTime":485.874,"body":"example of like, if you're using"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":485.874,"endTime":489.144,"body":"ai, especially if you're newer to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":485.874,"endTime":489.144,"body":"the field that you're working in."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":489.489,"endTime":490.689,"body":"Challenge yourself with it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":490.689,"endTime":493.179,"body":"Don't, don't just use"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":490.689,"endTime":493.179,"body":"it to, to move faster."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":493.179,"endTime":494.979,"body":"Use it to get smarter as well."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":495.478,"endTime":495.838,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":495.868,"endTime":498.028,"body":"Ben, have you ever heard of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":495.868,"endTime":498.028,"body":"like rubber duck programming?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":498.459,"endTime":499.149,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":499.678,"endTime":503.118,"body":"Yeah, I think that is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":499.678,"endTime":503.118,"body":"the real practice, here that developers"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":503.118,"endTime":506.268,"body":"should be bringing to their tools,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":503.118,"endTime":506.268,"body":"asking those questions along the way,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":506.268,"endTime":509.832,"body":"and, just trying to reflect upon what"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":506.268,"endTime":509.832,"body":"they're putting in action and make sure"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":509.832,"endTime":511.182,"body":"that they understand what's going on."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":511.553,"endTime":511.853,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":511.853,"endTime":514.163,"body":"Well, now your rubber duck"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":511.853,"endTime":514.163,"body":"speaks back to you with whatever"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":514.212,"endTime":514.632,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":514.943,"endTime":516.323,"body":"you tell it to use."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":516.956,"endTime":517.406,"body":"All right, cool."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":517.406,"endTime":518.611,"body":"So what's our, what's our next story?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":518.992,"endTime":519.322,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":519.322,"endTime":520.852,"body":"So this is a fun one."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":520.852,"endTime":522.322,"body":"Comes right from Bill Gates blog."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":522.622,"endTime":525.982,"body":"It's, uh, a little bit of a deep"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":522.622,"endTime":525.982,"body":"dive into Microsoft's, history."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":526.192,"endTime":529.222,"body":"Looking at the original source"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":526.192,"endTime":529.222,"body":"code for, um, you know, the very"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":529.222,"endTime":531.832,"body":"first Microsoft to hit the market,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":529.222,"endTime":531.832,"body":"the very first personal computer."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":532.132,"endTime":534.842,"body":"This was actually a huge"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":532.132,"endTime":534.842,"body":"I. Mathematical feat."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":535.112,"endTime":538.892,"body":"Um, it actually, for me, what found"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":535.112,"endTime":538.892,"body":"so fascinating about this article,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":538.892,"endTime":542.792,"body":"which you should go read, it literally"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":538.892,"endTime":542.792,"body":"has the source code in the article."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":543.032,"endTime":546.362,"body":"How cool is that on adopt"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":543.032,"endTime":546.362,"body":"matrix simulated printout?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":546.618,"endTime":550.278,"body":"what this really reminded me of is how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":546.618,"endTime":550.278,"body":"much of the foundation in our field"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":550.278,"endTime":554.268,"body":"and technology and computer science"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":550.278,"endTime":554.268,"body":"has been laid by all these mathematical"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":554.268,"endTime":558.378,"body":"geniuses before us, and how there"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":554.268,"endTime":558.378,"body":"were these insurmountable problems."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":558.493,"endTime":563.533,"body":"Early on in computer engineering that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":558.493,"endTime":563.533,"body":"were solved by brilliant minds applying"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":563.533,"endTime":568.123,"body":"math and physics, sometimes even"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":563.533,"endTime":568.123,"body":"theoretical ones in order to create a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":568.423,"endTime":573.073,"body":"basically trick a rock into thinking"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":568.423,"endTime":573.073,"body":"like, what an incredible achievement."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":573.313,"endTime":576.193,"body":"And so this is a fun throwback on"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":573.313,"endTime":576.193,"body":"some of the ancient history around"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":576.193,"endTime":577.933,"body":"computing, personal computing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":577.933,"endTime":579.823,"body":"I really recommend folks"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":577.933,"endTime":579.823,"body":"check that one out."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":580.564,"endTime":580.774,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":580.774,"endTime":583.564,"body":"Tricking a rock into thinking"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":580.774,"endTime":583.564,"body":"is one of my favorite metaphors"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":583.564,"endTime":585.214,"body":"of all time for computing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":586.178,"endTime":586.398,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":586.594,"endTime":589.181,"body":"yeah, so, I wanted"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":586.594,"endTime":589.181,"body":"to include this article just because"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":589.181,"endTime":591.131,"body":"it's such a cool piece of work."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":591.161,"endTime":596.201,"body":"You know, there's ASCI art, there's dot"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":591.161,"endTime":596.201,"body":"matrix printer designs, there's these"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":596.201,"endTime":599.621,"body":"cool animations, and of course there's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":596.201,"endTime":599.621,"body":"some really great tech history, so."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":600.431,"endTime":604.391,"body":"definitely need to go check it out just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":600.431,"endTime":604.391,"body":"to experience like this really cool like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":604.391,"endTime":607.961,"body":"50th anniversary content from Microsoft."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":608.668,"endTime":611.158,"body":"So Andrew, I heard you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":608.668,"endTime":611.158,"body":"were on the road last week."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":611.248,"endTime":611.668,"body":"How did that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":611.742,"endTime":615.852,"body":"Oh yes, Dev"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":611.742,"endTime":615.852,"body":"Interrupted is certainly going places."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":615.882,"endTime":619.542,"body":"Last week I was at Atlassian teams,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":615.882,"endTime":619.542,"body":"part of the press group there."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":619.852,"endTime":622.822,"body":"I got to go behind the scenes on"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":619.852,"endTime":622.822,"body":"all of their major announcements."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":622.822,"endTime":626.672,"body":"I. Dev Interrupted, met with, many"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":622.822,"endTime":626.672,"body":"leadership folks that were at Atlassian."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":626.732,"endTime":629.762,"body":"They took really great care of our"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":626.732,"endTime":629.762,"body":"listeners and informing us about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":629.762,"endTime":632.162,"body":"the big changes that are happening"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":629.762,"endTime":632.162,"body":"in the Atlassian ecosystem,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":632.492,"endTime":634.312,"body":"including their release of Rovo."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":634.328,"endTime":638.928,"body":"more importantly, what I learned"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":634.328,"endTime":638.928,"body":"while I was there is How quickly our"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":638.928,"endTime":642.018,"body":"field really is changing, but how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":638.928,"endTime":642.018,"body":"collaboratively everyone is coming"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":642.018,"endTime":644.838,"body":"together to discuss real world solutions."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":645.078,"endTime":647.778,"body":"And Atlassian is no stranger to anybody."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":647.838,"endTime":652.218,"body":"This is a household name for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":647.838,"endTime":652.218,"body":"all engineers, has a huge impact"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":652.218,"endTime":655.848,"body":"on the engineering ecosystem"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":652.218,"endTime":655.848,"body":"and how we build our tools."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":656.058,"endTime":660.078,"body":"So for Dev Interrupted to have the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":656.058,"endTime":660.078,"body":"chance to go behind the scenes,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":660.318,"endTime":664.308,"body":"understand how things are getting made"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":660.318,"endTime":664.308,"body":"and why those decisions are happening."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":664.478,"endTime":666.008,"body":"Was really transformative."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":666.168,"endTime":670.618,"body":"and it really speaks to, the conversations"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":666.168,"endTime":670.618,"body":"that we're having here on the show every"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":670.618,"endTime":672.358,"body":"single week and why they're so important."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":673.208,"endTime":673.478,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":673.483,"endTime":677.201,"body":"And, and I, just wanna point out that,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":673.483,"endTime":677.201,"body":"we're working with more companies like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":677.231,"endTime":681.791,"body":"Atlassian, like AWS to just get the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":677.231,"endTime":681.791,"body":"word out about really cool engineering"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":681.791,"endTime":683.321,"body":"stuff that's happening out there."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":683.771,"endTime":684.491,"body":"Uh, you know, if you're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":684.58,"endTime":684.7,"body":"I."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":684.821,"endTime":687.251,"body":"listening to this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":684.821,"endTime":687.251,"body":"right now and you're like, I have a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":687.251,"endTime":690.281,"body":"really cool engineering thing that I've"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":687.251,"endTime":690.281,"body":"done that I would love to share with the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":690.281,"endTime":692.421,"body":"world, Dev Interrupted is here for you."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":692.421,"endTime":696.681,"body":"Like, either on this podcast or in our"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":692.421,"endTime":696.681,"body":"substack newsletter or even on social"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":696.681,"endTime":698.661,"body":"media, you know, so just reach out to us."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":699.031,"endTime":702.391,"body":"but speaking of, of on the road, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":699.031,"endTime":702.391,"body":"will also be on the road next month."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":702.451,"endTime":707.171,"body":"if you're gonna be in Miami at the Code"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":702.451,"endTime":707.171,"body":"Remix Summit, in early May, or at the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":707.171,"endTime":711.371,"body":"Developer Week Leadership Summit in San"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":707.171,"endTime":711.371,"body":"Francisco at the end of May, hit me up."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":711.401,"endTime":713.501,"body":"Let me know and let's meet up and chat."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":713.501,"endTime":715.421,"body":"I always love meeting"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":713.501,"endTime":715.421,"body":"people from the community."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":715.786,"endTime":717.226,"body":"And, you know, Dev Interrupted."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":717.286,"endTime":719.146,"body":"We, we want to do as"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":717.286,"endTime":719.146,"body":"much of this as possible."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":719.146,"endTime":723.046,"body":"So we're out there meeting new people,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":719.146,"endTime":723.046,"body":"getting fresh ideas, getting new stories."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":723.766,"endTime":724.786,"body":"so keep an eye out for us."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":724.786,"endTime":727.556,"body":"We, we really, want to use"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":724.786,"endTime":727.556,"body":"these as opportunities to,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":727.616,"endTime":728.696,"body":"to engage with our community."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":728.696,"endTime":728.726,"body":"I."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":729.213,"endTime":731.163,"body":"Oh yes, we're gonna"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":729.213,"endTime":731.163,"body":"be on the road and conference"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":731.163,"endTime":732.363,"body":"season is just picking up."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":732.753,"endTime":738.093,"body":"Uh, and you may remember our recent"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":732.753,"endTime":738.093,"body":"guest as well, um, Adnan Ijaz from AWS."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":738.213,"endTime":742.443,"body":"He came on the podcast and talked"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":738.213,"endTime":742.443,"body":"with us about how Amazon is working"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":742.443,"endTime":746.393,"body":"with, agents, AI agents to transform"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":742.443,"endTime":746.393,"body":"workflows and applications."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":746.823,"endTime":750.963,"body":"they sent us a special video message"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":746.823,"endTime":750.963,"body":"to you, the Dev Interrupted listeners"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":750.963,"endTime":754.743,"body":"about changes coming from Amazon Q"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":750.963,"endTime":754.743,"body":"and opportunities for you to take"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":754.743,"endTime":756.813,"body":"advantage of in your own native language."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":756.813,"endTime":761.253,"body":"And so if you're curious about what that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":756.813,"endTime":761.253,"body":"means, definitely be sure to check out"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":761.253,"endTime":763.863,"body":"Dev Interrupted in places like LinkedIn."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":763.983,"endTime":765.333,"body":"You'll be sure not to miss it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":765.603,"endTime":767.463,"body":"Because if you're just listening"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":765.603,"endTime":767.463,"body":"to this podcast, you're only"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":767.463,"endTime":768.783,"body":"getting a part of the story."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":769.023,"endTime":772.483,"body":"You know, we're going on the road to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":769.023,"endTime":772.483,"body":"conferences and we're posting lots of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":772.483,"endTime":776.863,"body":"things on LinkedIn and covering all of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":772.483,"endTime":776.863,"body":"these news topics on substack as well."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":777.013,"endTime":780.823,"body":"So, like Ben said, please join our"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":777.013,"endTime":780.823,"body":"conversation, become part of the Dev"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":780.823,"endTime":782.953,"body":"Interrupted network, and come meet us."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":782.953,"endTime":784.303,"body":"You know, we'd love to engage with you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":784.744,"endTime":784.924,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":784.929,"endTime":788.254,"body":"I, I almost feel like this podcast is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":784.929,"endTime":788.254,"body":"like, it's like a filtered version of all"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":788.254,"endTime":790.024,"body":"the things that we want to talk about."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":790.084,"endTime":790.264,"body":"You know?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":790.539,"endTime":791.344,"body":"We, we only"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":791.353,"endTime":792.883,"body":"filtered or unfiltered."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":792.943,"endTime":794.173,"body":"You know, they can decide."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":794.704,"endTime":795.094,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":795.424,"endTime":797.254,"body":"Maybe we just go back and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":795.424,"endTime":797.254,"body":"forth between the two."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":797.254,"endTime":797.644,"body":"I don't know."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":798.48,"endTime":799.98,"body":"So tell us about our"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":798.48,"endTime":799.98,"body":"guests this week, Andrew."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":800.614,"endTime":801.364,"body":"Oh, I'm excited."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":801.584,"endTime":805.094,"body":"We're bringing cybersecurity"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":801.584,"endTime":805.094,"body":"expert Tanya Janca on the pod."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":805.544,"endTime":810.554,"body":"Tanya's work makes our world"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":805.544,"endTime":810.554,"body":"safer, cooler, and more purple."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":812.283,"endTime":814.053,"body":"Ready"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":812.283,"endTime":814.053,"body":"to move beyond copilot."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":814.303,"endTime":819.063,"body":"Join LinearB for a 35 minute workshop that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":814.303,"endTime":819.063,"body":"explores how top engineering teams are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":819.063,"endTime":823.743,"body":"transforming their workflows with Agentic"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":819.063,"endTime":823.743,"body":"ai, we'll show you how to go from passive"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":823.743,"endTime":829.181,"body":"assistance to full AI orchestration"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":823.743,"endTime":829.181,"body":"beyond the IDE and into real impact."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":829.721,"endTime":832.421,"body":"Discover your place on the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":829.721,"endTime":832.421,"body":"AI collaboration matrix."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":832.451,"endTime":835.631,"body":"Uncover the next initiative that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":832.451,"endTime":835.631,"body":"could change how your team works."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":835.841,"endTime":839.351,"body":"Don't miss your chance to learn from the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":835.841,"endTime":839.351,"body":"leaders at the forefront of AI maturity."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":839.771,"endTime":842.681,"body":"The workshop takes place"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":839.771,"endTime":842.681,"body":"on May 14th and 15th."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":842.951,"endTime":845.831,"body":"Reserve your spot and step"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":842.951,"endTime":845.831,"body":"into the future of engineering."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":848.812,"endTime":852.012,"body":"Today we're tackling one of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":848.812,"endTime":852.012,"body":"the biggest gaps in software engineering."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":852.157,"endTime":856.387,"body":"And that's, security isn't"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":852.157,"endTime":856.387,"body":"a product, it's a practice."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":856.687,"endTime":862.417,"body":"Yet too many teams treat security"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":856.687,"endTime":862.417,"body":"as a box to check or a tool to adopt"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":862.657,"endTime":864.157,"body":"instead of a skillset to build."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":864.607,"endTime":868.477,"body":"And when it comes to securing software,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":864.607,"endTime":868.477,"body":"most developers feel like they're playing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":868.477,"endTime":870.397,"body":"catch up instead of setting the rules."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":871.097,"endTime":873.797,"body":"And joining me today is Tanya Janca, AKA."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":873.797,"endTime":874.787,"body":"She Hacks purple."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":875.087,"endTime":879.527,"body":"She's the bestselling author of Alice"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":875.087,"endTime":879.527,"body":"and Bob Learn Application Security."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":879.587,"endTime":885.347,"body":"And most recently, Alice and Bob learned"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":879.587,"endTime":885.347,"body":"secure coding over her 28 year IT career."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":885.347,"endTime":889.787,"body":"Tanya has won countless awards"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":885.347,"endTime":889.787,"body":"including oasp lifetime distinguished"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":889.787,"endTime":891.587,"body":"member and Hacker of the year."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":891.917,"endTime":893.177,"body":"She's spoken at conferences."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":893.367,"endTime":898.14,"body":"All over the world, before her tech"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":893.367,"endTime":898.14,"body":"career, Tanya was also a musician and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":898.14,"endTime":902.04,"body":"performer, but she's really done it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":898.14,"endTime":902.04,"body":"all in the world of cyber, including"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":902.04,"endTime":906.96,"body":"counter terrorism and leading security"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":902.04,"endTime":906.96,"body":"for the 52nd Canadian general election."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":907.26,"endTime":909.6,"body":"So we're really excited to have you today."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":909.6,"endTime":910.08,"body":"Tanya."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":910.08,"endTime":911.04,"body":"Welcome to the show."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":911.994,"endTime":912.474,"body":"Oh my gosh."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":912.474,"endTime":914.064,"body":"Thank you so much for having me, Andrew."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":914.064,"endTime":914.964,"body":"I've been looking forward to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":915.125,"endTime":915.245,"body":"I."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":915.354,"endTime":915.894,"body":"months."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":916.485,"endTime":917.985,"body":"We've been looking"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":916.485,"endTime":917.985,"body":"forward to having you here"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":917.985,"endTime":919.545,"body":"tapping into some of your wisdom."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":919.845,"endTime":920.805,"body":"You know, and Dev Interrupted."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":920.805,"endTime":923.175,"body":"We talk a lot about the skills"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":920.805,"endTime":923.175,"body":"and the things that people"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":923.175,"endTime":925.665,"body":"need to be paying attention to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":923.175,"endTime":925.665,"body":"right now in the world of tech."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":925.915,"endTime":928.945,"body":"and nothing is more important than"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":925.915,"endTime":928.945,"body":"security, and I don't feel like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":928.945,"endTime":932.125,"body":"security always gets as much attention"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":928.945,"endTime":932.125,"body":"and time from everyone as it needs."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":932.125,"endTime":935.875,"body":"And I'm sure you as a security"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":932.125,"endTime":935.875,"body":"professional, security expert,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":936.265,"endTime":938.155,"body":"very much feel that same way."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":938.365,"endTime":942.33,"body":"So, um, I wanna start by, by kind of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":938.365,"endTime":942.33,"body":"addressing a recent talk that you gave."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":942.55,"endTime":946.5,"body":"this was about how Shift left"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":942.55,"endTime":946.5,"body":"doesn't mean anything, anymore."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":946.677,"endTime":949.197,"body":"you know, what did Shift left ever mean?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":950.087,"endTime":955.127,"body":"So shift left was supposed"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":950.087,"endTime":955.127,"body":"to mean starting security earlier"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":955.127,"endTime":956.957,"body":"in the system development lifecycle."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":956.987,"endTime":959.837,"body":"So when I was a Dev."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":960.182,"endTime":967.862,"body":"Security was I wanna go live on"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":960.182,"endTime":967.862,"body":"Thursday, so Tuesday I'm at like the"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":967.862,"endTime":971.222,"body":"cab meeting then security says no."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":971.552,"endTime":972.962,"body":"And I'm like, why?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":973.352,"endTime":976.622,"body":"And they're like, you didn't do this thing"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":973.352,"endTime":976.622,"body":"we never told you you were supposed to do."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":977.342,"endTime":981.062,"body":"I'm like, my deadline's"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":977.342,"endTime":981.062,"body":"Thursday so I'm going live."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":981.122,"endTime":983.822,"body":"So I'll just try to do that"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":981.122,"endTime":983.822,"body":"between Tuesday and Thursday and"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":983.822,"endTime":985.832,"body":"you'll just get what I can do."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":986.687,"endTime":988.157,"body":"they're like, that's not good enough."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":988.187,"endTime":990.257,"body":"And then I would usually"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":988.187,"endTime":990.257,"body":"go to prod anyway."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":991.057,"endTime":995.767,"body":"it was, I ran this stupid tool,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":991.057,"endTime":995.767,"body":"'cause the tools were really"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":995.767,"endTime":1000.117,"body":"stupid then like 2011 and 20 12, 20"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":995.767,"endTime":1000.117,"body":"third, they were not very mature."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1000.987,"endTime":1005.307,"body":"So I ran this tool and it"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1000.987,"endTime":1005.307,"body":"found this one thing and I'm"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1005.307,"endTime":1006.897,"body":"like, I'll fix that one thing."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1007.317,"endTime":1011.987,"body":"Then it became, and they would say"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1007.317,"endTime":1011.987,"body":"that right when I wanted to go to prod."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1012.372,"endTime":1012.582,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1012.582,"endTime":1013.602,"body":"It was always at the end."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1013.902,"endTime":1017.652,"body":"So then they're like, oh, we hired a"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1013.902,"endTime":1017.652,"body":"pen tester and this person's gonna come"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1017.652,"endTime":1023.442,"body":"in your baby's super ugly, then we're"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1017.652,"endTime":1023.442,"body":"gonna tell you you're a crappy Dev."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1023.742,"endTime":1024.792,"body":"You did a bad job."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1024.792,"endTime":1026.952,"body":"And it's like, well, how was"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1024.792,"endTime":1026.952,"body":"I supposed to do a get job?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1027.582,"endTime":1031.692,"body":"And so when you look at the SDLC, like on"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1027.582,"endTime":1031.692,"body":"a piece of paper, so assuming waterfall."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1032.592,"endTime":1035.232,"body":"Or water fail, depending"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1032.592,"endTime":1035.232,"body":"upon how you pronounce it."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1035.999,"endTime":1040.679,"body":"but like, so not the eternity symbol for"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1035.999,"endTime":1040.679,"body":"DevOps, but if you write it from, you"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1040.679,"endTime":1044.849,"body":"know, left to right, like anglophones"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1040.679,"endTime":1044.849,"body":"and francophones, et cetera, right?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1045.869,"endTime":1052.589,"body":"If you look at it earlier, so you know,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1045.869,"endTime":1052.589,"body":"coding comes before release, coding's"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1052.679,"endTime":1055.169,"body":"after, let's say requirements gathering."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1055.499,"endTime":1058.469,"body":"So the further left on the page,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1055.499,"endTime":1058.469,"body":"you are, the earlier you are."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1058.469,"endTime":1058.484,"body":"Her."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1059.204,"endTime":1064.484,"body":"so some marketing person or some person"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1059.204,"endTime":1064.484,"body":"thought it would be smart to come"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1064.484,"endTime":1067.994,"body":"up with shift left, push"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1064.484,"endTime":1067.994,"body":"left, which I think is stupid."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1068.114,"endTime":1071.054,"body":"I think it should have been,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1068.114,"endTime":1071.054,"body":"let's start security earlier."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1071.234,"endTime":1073.404,"body":"But that didn't catch on."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1074.044,"endTime":1074.394,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1074.424,"endTime":1078.134,"body":"they came up with this idea of shifting"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1074.424,"endTime":1078.134,"body":"left and lots of marketing people"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1078.134,"endTime":1080.444,"body":"were like, yeah, let's use that."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1080.714,"endTime":1086.744,"body":"But what they used it for was, if you"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1080.714,"endTime":1086.744,"body":"buy our product, have shifted left."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1087.719,"endTime":1090.779,"body":"If you stick our product in your ci,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1087.719,"endTime":1090.779,"body":"the devs will magically fix everything"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1090.779,"endTime":1091.859,"body":"and you'll totally be secure."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1091.889,"endTime":1093.359,"body":"And you don't have to"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1091.889,"endTime":1093.359,"body":"do any other security."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1093.359,"endTime":1093.809,"body":"Don't worry."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1093.809,"endTime":1094.899,"body":"No effort required."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1095.599,"endTime":1100.499,"body":"Not true.. Um, and so as a result,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1095.599,"endTime":1100.499,"body":"a lot of security teams have been"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1100.499,"endTime":1102.869,"body":"very like, frustrated with tools"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1100.499,"endTime":1102.869,"body":"they bought because they're like,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1102.899,"endTime":1105.689,"body":"I was told I could just press three"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1102.899,"endTime":1105.689,"body":"buttons and life would be grand."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1106.469,"endTime":1108.449,"body":"And it turns out security's"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1106.469,"endTime":1108.449,"body":"a lot harder than that."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1109.079,"endTime":1112.319,"body":"And then they're like, oh, and"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1109.079,"endTime":1112.319,"body":"now we have a backlog with 40,000"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1112.319,"endTime":1116.279,"body":"random things that it found, and"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1112.319,"endTime":1116.279,"body":"no one has time to fix all of it."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1116.604,"endTime":1119.274,"body":", it's been ruined to not"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1116.604,"endTime":1119.274,"body":"mean something anymore."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1119.274,"endTime":1122.964,"body":"But basically we, but we did shift"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1119.274,"endTime":1122.964,"body":"left as an industry, like there's"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1122.964,"endTime":1125.904,"body":"very few companies now that are"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1122.964,"endTime":1125.904,"body":"just pen testing at the end."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1126.084,"endTime":1130.164,"body":"It is much, much more common to"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1126.084,"endTime":1130.164,"body":"actually give developers some"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1130.164,"endTime":1133.284,"body":"security tools, actually have some"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1130.164,"endTime":1133.284,"body":"sort of security requirements, have"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1133.284,"endTime":1134.904,"body":"some sort of architecture review."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1135.144,"endTime":1136.464,"body":"those things are happening now."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1136.464,"endTime":1140.424,"body":"Like they did not when I was at Dev,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1136.464,"endTime":1140.424,"body":"'cause I've been doing security."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1141.009,"endTime":1145.179,"body":"So I did security for a year"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1141.009,"endTime":1145.179,"body":"and a half between 2007, 2008."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1145.179,"endTime":1147.249,"body":"Then I switched back to Deving"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1145.179,"endTime":1147.249,"body":"because counterterrorism"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1147.339,"endTime":1149.289,"body":"terrorism, it's really scary."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1149.769,"endTime":1151.599,"body":"and I was like, I don't want"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1149.769,"endTime":1151.599,"body":"a job that gives me nightmares"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1151.599,"endTime":1153.939,"body":"all day, night, not all day."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1154.102,"endTime":1158.782,"body":"and so then I switched back"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1154.102,"endTime":1158.782,"body":"again in like 2014 full-time."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1158.782,"endTime":1165.916,"body":"And like, I think 2013, I was,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1158.782,"endTime":1165.916,"body":"like switching over and like"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1165.916,"endTime":1167.476,"body":"it's just, it's improved a lot."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1167.476,"endTime":1168.436,"body":"It did help."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1168.916,"endTime":1170.086,"body":"But we're not done, Andrew."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1170.583,"endTime":1172.688,"body":"Yeah, and and what"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1170.583,"endTime":1172.688,"body":"you're describing to the initial."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1173.353,"endTime":1175.813,"body":"way that you encounter security,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1173.353,"endTime":1175.813,"body":"you go through security view."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1175.813,"endTime":1178.573,"body":"It's like a, an obstacle at the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1175.813,"endTime":1178.573,"body":"end, like you felt you were done."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1178.573,"endTime":1178.813,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1178.813,"endTime":1180.073,"body":"Well, I'm gonna ship to prod."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1180.073,"endTime":1180.763,"body":"I'm gonna push it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1180.763,"endTime":1182.293,"body":"Like, I think it's good to go."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1182.323,"endTime":1184.033,"body":"My team thinks it's good to go."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1184.273,"endTime":1188.473,"body":"And then your act like the security team"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1184.273,"endTime":1188.473,"body":"feels like a blocker then at that point."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1188.473,"endTime":1191.513,"body":"So it's like, it sets"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1188.473,"endTime":1191.513,"body":"up this antagonistic."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1191.543,"endTime":1194.993,"body":"Relationship between the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1191.543,"endTime":1194.993,"body":"developers and the security team."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1195.263,"endTime":1198.353,"body":"And if the developer doesn't prioritize"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1195.263,"endTime":1198.353,"body":"that, then they see it as like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1198.353,"endTime":1203.063,"body":"this extraneous step as opposed to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1198.353,"endTime":1203.063,"body":"something that's core to building,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1203.153,"endTime":1205.193,"body":"you know, good usable software."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1205.193,"endTime":1209.153,"body":"So, what you're highlighting is, is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1205.193,"endTime":1209.153,"body":"really interesting to me how, it becomes"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1209.153,"endTime":1213.453,"body":"like a, like a marketing hype problem,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1209.153,"endTime":1213.453,"body":"a marketing, situation where they"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1213.453,"endTime":1215.833,"body":"take this concept, and they move it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1216.073,"endTime":1221.467,"body":"so when you talking about how companies"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1216.073,"endTime":1221.467,"body":"now they do security practices."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1221.567,"endTime":1222.317,"body":"Earlier."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1222.597,"endTime":1226.737,"body":"Like how do they actually move"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1222.597,"endTime":1226.737,"body":"it earlier in the process without"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1226.737,"endTime":1228.092,"body":"falling victim to like hype?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1228.816,"endTime":1230.436,"body":"Oh, such a"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1228.816,"endTime":1230.436,"body":"good question, Andrew."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1230.436,"endTime":1230.826,"body":"So."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1231.019,"endTime":1233.299,"body":"I wrote two books essentially"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1231.019,"endTime":1233.299,"body":"about this, Right."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1233.449,"endTime":1235.849,"body":"Because I'm very, very excited about this."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1235.969,"endTime":1240.529,"body":"'cause when I was the Dev lead and it"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1235.969,"endTime":1240.529,"body":"was just so abrasive and so crappy,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1240.529,"endTime":1244.519,"body":"it was such a crappy situation I"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1240.529,"endTime":1244.519,"body":"felt like of us knocking along."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1245.119,"endTime":1249.979,"body":"so the way we can start earlier, so first"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1245.119,"endTime":1249.979,"body":"of all, if we start earlier, it's better."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1250.219,"endTime":1251.209,"body":"We will save money."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1251.299,"endTime":1252.829,"body":"We will have less conflict."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1253.144,"endTime":1255.814,"body":"We will build better software,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1253.144,"endTime":1255.814,"body":"period, like hands down."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1255.814,"endTime":1256.594,"body":"We really will."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1256.924,"endTime":1262.617,"body":"And so what I like to do so I meet"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1256.924,"endTime":1262.617,"body":"with companies, and I have been doing"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1262.617,"endTime":1266.457,"body":"this, I guess since late 2018 through"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1262.617,"endTime":1266.457,"body":"this company called Ions Research."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1266.457,"endTime":1270.837,"body":"And then sometimes I do it just on"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1266.457,"endTime":1270.837,"body":"the side, but with companies and we"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1270.837,"endTime":1273.597,"body":"look at their program and I'm like, so"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1270.837,"endTime":1273.597,"body":"what are the strengths of your team?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1273.912,"endTime":1276.792,"body":"So if you have someone that's awesome"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1273.912,"endTime":1276.792,"body":"at threat modeling, it makes sense that"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1276.822,"endTime":1278.502,"body":"maybe you wanna add that to your program."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1278.742,"endTime":1281.442,"body":"But if you have some, like no"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1278.742,"endTime":1281.442,"body":"one with any of those skills,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1281.712,"endTime":1283.092,"body":"that might be my last choice."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1283.152,"endTime":1284.022,"body":"Does that make sense?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1284.292,"endTime":1288.372,"body":"And so it's like what are our strengths"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1284.292,"endTime":1288.372,"body":"and what do we think we can support?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1288.672,"endTime":1291.612,"body":"And I try to start with"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1288.672,"endTime":1291.612,"body":"the easiest things first."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1291.612,"endTime":1295.932,"body":"So as an example, so let's say"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1291.612,"endTime":1295.932,"body":"you're building web apps and APIs."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1296.322,"endTime":1299.172,"body":"And then you're doing like"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1296.322,"endTime":1299.172,"body":"one team's doing web sockets."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1299.322,"endTime":1299.712,"body":"Cool."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1300.162,"endTime":1300.522,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1300.522,"endTime":1305.502,"body":"So from now on I'm gonna make a"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1300.522,"endTime":1305.502,"body":"list of requirements for every"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1305.502,"endTime":1308.802,"body":"new project that does those"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1305.502,"endTime":1308.802,"body":"things like security requirements."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1308.802,"endTime":1310.182,"body":"So you're gonna build an API."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1310.272,"endTime":1310.662,"body":"Cool."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1311.082,"endTime":1312.462,"body":"We use this API gateway."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1312.732,"endTime":1314.442,"body":"These are the settings we expect."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1314.652,"endTime":1317.742,"body":"This is where you can find a document"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1314.652,"endTime":1317.742,"body":"that will show you all those things."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1318.492,"endTime":1322.392,"body":"We expect this, we expect that, and"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1318.492,"endTime":1322.392,"body":"it's super clear from the beginning."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1322.512,"endTime":1324.312,"body":"So they design it in from the beginning."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1324.657,"endTime":1328.647,"body":"And they know how much work they need"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1324.657,"endTime":1328.647,"body":"to do instead of us springing surprise"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1328.647,"endTime":1331.107,"body":"work on them later, which no one likes."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1331.767,"endTime":1332.117,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1332.991,"endTime":1337.161,"body":"having a list"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1332.991,"endTime":1337.161,"body":"of requirements and concise."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1337.841,"endTime":1341.435,"body":"easy to understand,  technical advice."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1341.585,"endTime":1343.445,"body":"So like you're gonna do a web socket."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1343.445,"endTime":1343.745,"body":"Cool."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1343.745,"endTime":1347.405,"body":"Here's like some advice that"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1343.745,"endTime":1347.405,"body":"we need you to follow when you"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1347.405,"endTime":1349.055,"body":"build or maintain a web socket."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1349.055,"endTime":1353.915,"body":"For us, starting with requirements,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1349.055,"endTime":1353.915,"body":"to me is key because with those"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1353.915,"endTime":1359.735,"body":"requirements you can say, we expect"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1353.915,"endTime":1359.735,"body":"you to scan it with these two tools"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1360.215,"endTime":1363.605,"body":"and then remediate anything that's"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1360.215,"endTime":1363.605,"body":"higher, medium before you go to prod."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1364.04,"endTime":1368.39,"body":"You can scan it in your IDE, you can"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1364.04,"endTime":1368.39,"body":"scan it at the CLI, you can scan it."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1368.39,"endTime":1371.06,"body":"When you check your code in,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1368.39,"endTime":1371.06,"body":"you can scan it in the ci,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1371.69,"endTime":1373.16,"body":"whatever it is that you want."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1373.31,"endTime":1377.21,"body":"But when it gets to me, it better"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1373.31,"endTime":1377.21,"body":"have passed those things or I'm"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1377.21,"endTime":1380.84,"body":"gonna embarrass you and be like,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1377.21,"endTime":1380.84,"body":"your, your baby's not that pretty."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1381.92,"endTime":1382.22,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1382.22,"endTime":1387.95,"body":"So then you've given them control because"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1382.22,"endTime":1387.95,"body":"I am a control freak like I really am."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1388.32,"endTime":1392.58,"body":"and they're, I hated that I was"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1388.32,"endTime":1392.58,"body":"not allowed the testing tool."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1393.315,"endTime":1394.695,"body":"And I was like, how am I supposed to pass?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1394.695,"endTime":1396.045,"body":"If you haven't let me see the tool."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1396.345,"endTime":1398.385,"body":"I need to run it myself, fix everything."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1398.415,"endTime":1399.255,"body":"Then you may see it."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1399.675,"endTime":1401.175,"body":"And they thought I was insane."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1401.175,"endTime":1403.155,"body":"They're like, why would we"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1401.175,"endTime":1403.155,"body":"let you touch our tools?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1403.215,"endTime":1404.115,"body":"I'm like, they're forever."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1404.145,"endTime":1406.335,"body":"They're, they're our tools."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1406.335,"endTime":1407.595,"body":"We're we're one team."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1407.595,"endTime":1408.615,"body":"Dude, we are not enemies."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1408.645,"endTime":1409.725,"body":"We are on the same team."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1409.946,"endTime":1412.146,"body":"Right, we're working"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1409.946,"endTime":1412.146,"body":"towards the same end result."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1412.146,"endTime":1415.626,"body":"it's smart how you call out,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1412.146,"endTime":1415.626,"body":"acknowledging what your team can do."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1415.626,"endTime":1419.196,"body":"What do you have the skillset for, and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1415.626,"endTime":1419.196,"body":"what do you have the bandwidth for?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1419.256,"endTime":1422.626,"body":"It goes back to a tool that maybe"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1419.256,"endTime":1422.626,"body":"like you end up with a big backlog,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1422.656,"endTime":1427.036,"body":"like a pile of stuff to do instead of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1422.656,"endTime":1427.036,"body":"addressing them earlier in the process."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1427.086,"endTime":1428.436,"body":"that sounds to me like."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1428.786,"endTime":1433.346,"body":"When you try to like start a habit and,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1428.786,"endTime":1433.346,"body":"your habit is to just put everything in a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1433.346,"endTime":1435.506,"body":"bucket or in a list to deal with it later."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1435.586,"endTime":1439.516,"body":"how are you actually gonna build a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1435.586,"endTime":1439.516,"body":"skill if you're not doing it every day?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1439.516,"endTime":1443.176,"body":"If you're not integrating into your life,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1439.516,"endTime":1443.176,"body":"if you wanna work out, you know, if you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1443.176,"endTime":1447.076,"body":"want to get into shape, you know, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1443.176,"endTime":1447.076,"body":"need to like do your little bit every"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1447.076,"endTime":1448.726,"body":"day or as much as often as you can."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1448.726,"endTime":1451.726,"body":"You can't do it all at the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1448.726,"endTime":1451.726,"body":"end or you can't be like, oh."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1451.921,"endTime":1453.181,"body":"I'm going to do it later."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1453.181,"endTime":1454.591,"body":"It's gonna go in my backlog."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1454.621,"endTime":1454.921,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1454.921,"endTime":1458.521,"body":"And it's like, so you're really calling"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1454.921,"endTime":1458.521,"body":"out how it's about acknowledging"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1458.521,"endTime":1461.341,"body":"and accepting where your team's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1458.521,"endTime":1461.341,"body":"at and what your skills are."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1461.517,"endTime":1464.217,"body":"it sounds like a bit, kind of what you're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1461.517,"endTime":1464.217,"body":"keying us in on is, almost like building"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1464.217,"endTime":1466.107,"body":"like a little internal security library."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1466.127,"endTime":1467.717,"body":"Like we use web sockets."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1467.747,"endTime":1471.377,"body":"These are the basic security"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1467.747,"endTime":1471.377,"body":"things that, that we expect"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1471.377,"endTime":1472.727,"body":"when people build web sockets."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1472.727,"endTime":1477.617,"body":"And then that's where shift left starts to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1472.727,"endTime":1477.617,"body":"actually happen within your organization."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1477.617,"endTime":1482.227,"body":"'cause now your product managers, your"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1477.617,"endTime":1482.227,"body":"team leads, they can design that into"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1482.257,"endTime":1483.817,"body":"what they're building upfront, right?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1484.635,"endTime":1488.091,"body":"and if you're really"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1484.635,"endTime":1488.091,"body":"lucky, this with companies before, like"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1488.091,"endTime":1491.821,"body":"where I worked full time so it's like,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1488.091,"endTime":1491.821,"body":"here's our secure coding guideline."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1492.176,"endTime":1493.538,"body":"you're gonna build a a web app."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1493.928,"endTime":1496.508,"body":"I'm especially thinking of Java"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1493.928,"endTime":1496.508,"body":"'cause I worked at this one place"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1496.508,"endTime":1498.638,"body":"where we had 2000 Java apps."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1499.058,"endTime":1499.598,"body":"Um, and,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1499.669,"endTime":1500.449,"body":"Oh my gosh."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1500.918,"endTime":1504.068,"body":"here's, you know, number"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1500.918,"endTime":1504.068,"body":"one, we wanna validate all the inputs."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1504.068,"endTime":1505.748,"body":"And so then you could click that link."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1506.468,"endTime":1511.088,"body":"then me and the devs had made"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1506.468,"endTime":1511.088,"body":"a wiki page like all different"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1511.088,"endTime":1513.818,"body":"examples in Java of like, this is"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1511.088,"endTime":1513.818,"body":"how you validate a phone number."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1513.818,"endTime":1514.658,"body":"This is how you validate."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1514.658,"endTime":1516.338,"body":"This is just like, reuse the code."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1516.593,"endTime":1517.583,"body":"Do not rate your own."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1517.583,"endTime":1518.303,"body":"This has been tested."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1518.303,"endTime":1519.143,"body":"Just use this."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1519.353,"endTime":1522.143,"body":"And we tried to do that for"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1519.353,"endTime":1522.143,"body":"all of the examples we could."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1522.923,"endTime":1524.813,"body":"And so we made it so it"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1522.923,"endTime":1524.813,"body":"was like really easy."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1524.813,"endTime":1526.253,"body":"It's like I'm designing a web app."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1526.253,"endTime":1530.243,"body":"You go here, I'm designing an api"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1526.253,"endTime":1530.243,"body":"go there and like I find you get,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1530.303,"endTime":1533.153,"body":"so you know the expression, like"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1530.303,"endTime":1533.153,"body":"you get more bees with honey."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1533.543,"endTime":1540.263,"body":"I find you get more devs with concise,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1533.543,"endTime":1540.263,"body":"short, actionable advice instead of like"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1540.563,"endTime":1543.053,"body":"vague crap that sometimes I see like."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1543.473,"endTime":1545.093,"body":"Session ID should be ephemeral."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1545.273,"endTime":1548.003,"body":"I don't know how to code that like that."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1548.003,"endTime":1549.323,"body":"Like that means shortlived."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1549.353,"endTime":1553.373,"body":"So the first time I saw that, which"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1549.353,"endTime":1553.373,"body":"was from a security team, I had"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1553.373,"endTime":1554.873,"body":"to look up what ephemeral meant."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1554.873,"endTime":1557.303,"body":"And I'm like, shortlived,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1554.873,"endTime":1557.303,"body":"I can't code shortlived."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1557.783,"endTime":1562.523,"body":"What if I think Shortlived is 20 days and"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1557.783,"endTime":1562.523,"body":"you think Shortlived is 20 minutes, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1564.109,"endTime":1564.919,"body":"Totally."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1565.043,"endTime":1566.003,"body":"you to be specific."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1566.003,"endTime":1567.503,"body":"And they're like, well,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1566.003,"endTime":1567.503,"body":"we don't know how long."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1567.503,"endTime":1569.693,"body":"And I'm like, well then I guess"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1567.503,"endTime":1569.693,"body":"this requirement doesn't exist."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1569.693,"endTime":1570.083,"body":"Go away."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1570.683,"endTime":1575.813,"body":"Right, like, if you can, so like whenever"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1570.683,"endTime":1575.813,"body":"someone's like, we're gonna write a policy"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1575.813,"endTime":1578.513,"body":"and it's gonna be like 400 pages, I'm"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1575.813,"endTime":1578.513,"body":"like, cool, no one's gonna read that."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1578.993,"endTime":1581.813,"body":"I'm gonna write a summary that's"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1578.993,"endTime":1581.813,"body":"half a page and be like, please,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1582.293,"endTime":1583.433,"body":"please read this half page."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1583.433,"endTime":1587.963,"body":"And then I would hold little"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1583.433,"endTime":1587.963,"body":"workshops where I'd have as"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1587.963,"endTime":1589.463,"body":"many people as I could convince."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1589.748,"endTime":1593.228,"body":"Come and then I would"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1589.748,"endTime":1593.228,"body":"teach them the thing."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1593.438,"endTime":1597.608,"body":"So I'm like, okay, so this is why"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1593.438,"endTime":1597.608,"body":"APIs need protection and like, here"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1597.608,"endTime":1599.798,"body":"are the things we want you to do"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1597.608,"endTime":1599.798,"body":"and why we want you to do them."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1599.798,"endTime":1600.698,"body":"This is how you do this."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1600.698,"endTime":1603.688,"body":"This is how you do that, And so that's"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1600.698,"endTime":1603.688,"body":"actually how I got into training."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1603.958,"endTime":1607.558,"body":"It was like I just kept doing"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1603.958,"endTime":1607.558,"body":"talks at work all the time."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1607.768,"endTime":1610.798,"body":"And then I got hired to"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1607.768,"endTime":1610.798,"body":"be the trainer at work."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1611.278,"endTime":1614.818,"body":"And then other people were"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1611.278,"endTime":1614.818,"body":"like, you like come train, like."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1615.148,"endTime":1615.928,"body":"Where we work."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1615.928,"endTime":1617.278,"body":"And I was like, do you have money?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1617.308,"endTime":1618.148,"body":"I like money."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1618.148,"endTime":1619.468,"body":"That sounds so appealing."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1619.768,"endTime":1623.188,"body":"and like when I joined gra I assumed"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1619.768,"endTime":1623.188,"body":"all of that would stop, but people still"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1623.188,"endTime":1624.628,"body":"call me and I'm like, this is so great."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1624.955,"endTime":1628.705,"body":"So if, if you are listening,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1624.955,"endTime":1628.705,"body":"first of all, like shameless"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1628.705,"endTime":1630.205,"body":"self-promotion, if you buy my book."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1631.18,"endTime":1635.14,"body":"You can take that information and"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1631.18,"endTime":1635.14,"body":"turn it into guidance for your office."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1635.14,"endTime":1635.92,"body":"That's why I wrote it."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1636.31,"endTime":1639.31,"body":"And so like I have this whole"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1636.31,"endTime":1639.31,"body":"section on Java whole section"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1639.31,"endTime":1641.08,"body":"on Python, et cetera, right?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1641.08,"endTime":1646.11,"body":"So like take that make a guideline"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1641.08,"endTime":1646.11,"body":"or make a standard and then show"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1646.11,"endTime":1649.2,"body":"them how, train them be like,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1646.11,"endTime":1649.2,"body":"this is, this is a good example."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1649.2,"endTime":1650.25,"body":"This is a bad example."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1650.25,"endTime":1651.45,"body":"This is why this is bad."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1651.63,"endTime":1652.86,"body":"This is why this is good."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1653.07,"endTime":1654.66,"body":"Here's a cheat sheet on how to do this."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1654.66,"endTime":1656.58,"body":"I tried to make the book"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1654.66,"endTime":1656.58,"body":"as easy as possible."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1656.58,"endTime":1659.82,"body":"I. It twice as long as my first"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1656.58,"endTime":1659.82,"body":"book and like there's only so much"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1659.82,"endTime":1663.51,"body":"my publisher will tolerate from"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1659.82,"endTime":1663.51,"body":"me, I couldn't just go on forever."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1663.51,"endTime":1663.81,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1663.81,"endTime":1665.25,"body":"But I'm doing the best I can."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1665.413,"endTime":1668.523,"body":"I made it speci like, and at"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1665.413,"endTime":1668.523,"body":"the end of the chapter I'm like,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1668.613,"endTime":1672.423,"body":"turn one of these into a secure"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1668.613,"endTime":1672.423,"body":"coding guideline where you work."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1672.573,"endTime":1676.173,"body":"You have my permission literally"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1672.573,"endTime":1676.173,"body":"in writing to steal my work and use"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1676.289,"endTime":1679.739,"body":"Steal it, take it,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1676.289,"endTime":1679.739,"body":"use it, remix it, please apply it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1679.739,"endTime":1680.519,"body":"Don't just read it."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1680.619,"endTime":1680.949,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1681.335,"endTime":1683.105,"body":"the key"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1681.335,"endTime":1683.105,"body":"ingredient here is training."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1683.135,"endTime":1686.725,"body":"and that's like the secret ingredient I"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1683.135,"endTime":1686.725,"body":"think, to having a really successful team"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1686.905,"endTime":1690.265,"body":"where that's has security practices is you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1686.905,"endTime":1690.265,"body":"have to have an active training process."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1690.265,"endTime":1694.855,"body":"You have to have an active conversation at"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1690.265,"endTime":1694.855,"body":"all times about how to apply these things."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1695.065,"endTime":1696.625,"body":"And you gotta have good examples."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1696.953,"endTime":1699.893,"body":"Going back a little bit about your"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1696.953,"endTime":1699.893,"body":"experience, training and teaching."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1699.893,"endTime":1703.523,"body":"You know, you've built an entire"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1699.893,"endTime":1703.523,"body":"program, entire platform to help people,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1703.683,"endTime":1705.633,"body":"build better, more secure software."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1705.913,"endTime":1709.763,"body":"and I'm wondering along the way,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1705.913,"endTime":1709.763,"body":"what do you think is the biggest"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1709.763,"endTime":1713.453,"body":"misconception that developers"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1709.763,"endTime":1713.453,"body":"always have about security?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1714.129,"endTime":1716.859,"body":"So sometimes I run"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1714.129,"endTime":1716.859,"body":"into developers where they're"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1716.859,"endTime":1719.289,"body":"like, not really a big deal."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1719.319,"endTime":1720.999,"body":"It's not as bad as you say."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1721.749,"endTime":1726.039,"body":"And then I'll show them some"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1721.749,"endTime":1726.039,"body":"exploits, then I almost always bring"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1726.039,"endTime":1731.009,"body":"them to the side of, gosh, it turns"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1726.039,"endTime":1731.009,"body":"out security is important, I need"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1731.009,"endTime":1732.719,"body":"to have them give me that chance."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1733.069,"endTime":1736.759,"body":"I find generally, so I hope"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1733.069,"endTime":1736.759,"body":"this does not sound awful."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1736.759,"endTime":1741.659,"body":"No one writes me hate mail, but I find"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1736.759,"endTime":1741.659,"body":"newer developers so not necessarily"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1741.679,"endTime":1746.179,"body":"younger, but newer people who have"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1741.679,"endTime":1746.179,"body":"become a developer more recently tend"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1746.179,"endTime":1749.149,"body":"to prioritize security a bit more"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1746.179,"endTime":1749.149,"body":"and take it a bit more seriously."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1749.959,"endTime":1753.109,"body":"Whereas ones that have been doing"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1749.959,"endTime":1753.109,"body":"it like 20, 25 years are like,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1753.169,"endTime":1757.296,"body":"you're overreacting because they're"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1753.169,"endTime":1757.296,"body":"thinking of the whole 25 year career"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1757.296,"endTime":1758.316,"body":"they've had, and they're like, what?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1758.316,"endTime":1760.656,"body":"We've had two breaches in"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1758.316,"endTime":1760.656,"body":"25 years, we're doing fine."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1760.656,"endTime":1763.026,"body":"It's like, yeah, but when was"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1760.656,"endTime":1763.026,"body":"this year and when was last year?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1763.506,"endTime":1766.206,"body":"Like because attacks are just happening."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1767.136,"endTime":1774.096,"body":"So much more often so, and the attacks"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1767.136,"endTime":1774.096,"body":"are happening are so much worse in"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1774.096,"endTime":1779.262,"body":"damage, and so as a result, some"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1774.096,"endTime":1779.262,"body":"of them aren't taking it seriously,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1779.262,"endTime":1780.552,"body":"but I'd say most of them are."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1780.552,"endTime":1780.912,"body":"Now."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1781.122,"endTime":1785.472,"body":"I would also say the other problem is"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1781.122,"endTime":1785.472,"body":"that they're like, listen, I have a"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1785.472,"endTime":1791.082,"body":"deadline Friday, and boss was like, this"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1785.472,"endTime":1791.082,"body":"feature goes out Friday or we all die."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1791.922,"endTime":1795.012,"body":"so I have to do that and I'll"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1791.922,"endTime":1795.012,"body":"totally do security next week."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1795.492,"endTime":1798.252,"body":"But then their manager gives"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1795.492,"endTime":1798.252,"body":"them another drop dead deadline,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1798.608,"endTime":1798.968,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1799.002,"endTime":1801.252,"body":"another one and another"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1799.002,"endTime":1801.252,"body":"one, and the devs sort of like,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1801.492,"endTime":1802.992,"body":"here's a rock, here's a hard place."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1802.992,"endTime":1804.672,"body":"And then there's the Dev getting squished."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1805.062,"endTime":1807.132,"body":"And that's not their fault."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1807.762,"endTime":1810.522,"body":"so it's really hard if like that's"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1807.762,"endTime":1810.522,"body":"what your manager's doing to you,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1810.792,"endTime":1813.732,"body":"because as a person that isn't the"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1810.792,"endTime":1813.732,"body":"boss, you can't be like, listen,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1813.732,"endTime":1814.992,"body":"your priorities are all wrong."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1815.474,"endTime":1815.924,"body":"Well,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1816.138,"endTime":1816.468,"body":"is gonna"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1816.584,"endTime":1818.654,"body":"well, maybe I, I'll,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1816.584,"endTime":1818.654,"body":"I'll challenge you a bit on that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1818.654,"endTime":1821.354,"body":"Maybe, maybe, let's say you're in a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1818.654,"endTime":1821.354,"body":"development team that you don't think"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1821.354,"endTime":1823.484,"body":"prioritizes security as much as it should."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1823.814,"endTime":1827.264,"body":"What are maybe some tactics that you've"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1823.814,"endTime":1827.264,"body":"seen a successful developer use to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1827.264,"endTime":1829.994,"body":"take that back to their team, their"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1827.264,"endTime":1829.994,"body":"manager, their leadership, and be like,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1829.994,"endTime":1831.914,"body":"we have to take this more seriously."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1833.043,"endTime":1835.773,"body":"Okay, so this is what I"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1833.043,"endTime":1835.773,"body":"did when I a Dev because I was really"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1835.773,"endTime":1839.553,"body":"concerned, and this is probably how"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1835.773,"endTime":1839.553,"body":"I ended up on the security team."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1840.333,"endTime":1841.653,"body":"so I would ask questions."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1841.653,"endTime":1842.913,"body":"I'm like, what if this happens?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1842.913,"endTime":1845.283,"body":"Then everyone would be like,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1842.913,"endTime":1845.283,"body":"you're overreacting, Tanya."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1845.328,"endTime":1845.448,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1846.468,"endTime":1850.158,"body":"so when I was doing the top secret"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1846.468,"endTime":1850.158,"body":"counter-terrorism stuff, there was a"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1850.158,"endTime":1852.978,"body":"thing that happened that I would love to"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1850.158,"endTime":1852.978,"body":"tell you about by I'm not allowed because"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1852.978,"endTime":1857.248,"body":"non-disclosure agreements slash go to"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1852.978,"endTime":1857.248,"body":"jail, in Canada, they're not like, you"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1857.248,"endTime":1859.948,"body":"know, I would tell you, but I'd have to"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1857.248,"endTime":1859.948,"body":"kill you, they're like I would tell you."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1859.948,"endTime":1862.228,"body":"But then you have to go"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1859.948,"endTime":1862.228,"body":"to jail for 20 years."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1863.248,"endTime":1865.108,"body":"I tell you, but then"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1863.248,"endTime":1865.108,"body":"you can't have any more maple syrup."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1866.777,"endTime":1869.177,"body":"not to sound prejudice,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1866.777,"endTime":1869.177,"body":"but I just don't think I'd like jail."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1869.868,"endTime":1870.018,"body":"No."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1870.018,"endTime":1870.588,"body":"Probably not."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1870.618,"endTime":1872.298,"body":"There's not a lot of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1870.618,"endTime":1872.298,"body":"purple in jail, Tanya."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1872.692,"endTime":1874.582,"body":"It sounds so, so sucky."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1875.002,"endTime":1878.692,"body":"So but basically like some of"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1875.002,"endTime":1878.692,"body":"them were doing a thing that"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1878.962,"endTime":1882.712,"body":"did not follow the policy and so"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1878.962,"endTime":1882.712,"body":"I was like, you can't do this."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1882.712,"endTime":1885.652,"body":"Like, it's not a movie Tanya,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1882.712,"endTime":1885.652,"body":"you're like overreacting,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1885.682,"endTime":1886.642,"body":"blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1887.392,"endTime":1891.112,"body":"So I phoned Ciis, which is like the"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1887.392,"endTime":1891.112,"body":"CIA for Canada and told on them,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1891.948,"endTime":1893.988,"body":"So you just went"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1891.948,"endTime":1893.988,"body":"straight to the straight to the top."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1894.018,"endTime":1895.548,"body":"You know, you, you had a great example."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1895.548,"endTime":1896.478,"body":"You were ignored."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1896.478,"endTime":1899.388,"body":"And it goes back to what you were"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1896.478,"endTime":1899.388,"body":"even saying too about like when"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1899.388,"endTime":1901.938,"body":"nowadays, when there's a security"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1899.388,"endTime":1901.938,"body":"breach, there's security problem."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1901.938,"endTime":1906.468,"body":"It's major, it's big, there's big"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1901.938,"endTime":1906.468,"body":"losses, financial losses, security"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1906.468,"endTime":1909.413,"body":"like privacy losses, IP losses."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1909.873,"endTime":1913.168,"body":"And so, the stakes are"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1909.873,"endTime":1913.168,"body":"really, really high."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1913.168,"endTime":1915.808,"body":"And in your case, you had to escalate"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1913.168,"endTime":1915.808,"body":"it all the way to like a bureau"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1916.052,"endTime":1916.232,"body":"yeah,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1916.588,"endTime":1917.668,"body":"of investigation."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1917.792,"endTime":1920.162,"body":"to them about it and they"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1917.792,"endTime":1920.162,"body":"wouldn't do anything, and my boss was"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1920.162,"endTime":1921.602,"body":"like, you're just so overreacting."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1921.602,"endTime":1925.682,"body":"And I'm like, I can't be"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1921.602,"endTime":1925.682,"body":"responsible for this, but not"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1925.682,"endTime":1927.302,"body":"have the authority to change this."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1928.082,"endTime":1928.412,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1928.412,"endTime":1934.252,"body":"And so then CSIS came and so I was like"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1928.412,"endTime":1934.252,"body":"about to go into the top secret building"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1934.252,"endTime":1935.272,"body":"and they're like, could you hold the door?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1935.272,"endTime":1936.892,"body":"I'm like, are you effing kidding?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1936.892,"endTime":1937.132,"body":"No."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1937.132,"endTime":1938.632,"body":"This is a top secret building."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1938.722,"endTime":1940.102,"body":"Can I please see your badges?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1940.305,"endTime":1940.965,"body":"And they're like, no."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1940.965,"endTime":1945.045,"body":"And I was like a real"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1940.965,"endTime":1945.045,"body":"not nice person about it."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1945.045,"endTime":1947.145,"body":"Like, I was like, what are you doing?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1947.145,"endTime":1948.165,"body":"Like, get away from this building."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1948.165,"endTime":1949.305,"body":"How do you even know where it is?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1949.455,"endTime":1949.995,"body":"Because it was like."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1950.295,"endTime":1952.845,"body":"So we have like several stories"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1950.295,"endTime":1952.845,"body":"underground, like, we're like"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1952.845,"endTime":1955.695,"body":"really intense as you would imagine,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1952.845,"endTime":1955.695,"body":"for like counter-terrorism stuff,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1955.951,"endTime":1956.301,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1956.385,"endTime":1959.175,"body":"I was just like, and"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1956.385,"endTime":1959.175,"body":"they had like gotten partway into"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1959.175,"endTime":1961.845,"body":"the building and we're trying"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1959.175,"endTime":1961.845,"body":"to get into the top secret area."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1961.845,"endTime":1963.765,"body":"And I was like, I'm"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1961.845,"endTime":1963.765,"body":"calling security on you."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1963.765,"endTime":1965.385,"body":"FYI like, show yourself out."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1965.385,"endTime":1966.645,"body":"Don't let the door hit your butt."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1967.095,"endTime":1968.515,"body":"and they're like, whoa, whoa."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1968.545,"endTime":1970.045,"body":"Like, we're just like these nice ladies."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1970.045,"endTime":1971.845,"body":"I was like, now scat."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1972.245,"endTime":1973.775,"body":"and so I didn't know it was ceases."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1974.06,"endTime":1976.61,"body":"And so then I called security and was"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1974.06,"endTime":1976.61,"body":"like, Oh my gosh, like some people"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1976.61,"endTime":1979.413,"body":"got partway in and they were trying"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1976.61,"endTime":1979.413,"body":"to do this then lunchtime happened"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1979.413,"endTime":1982.173,"body":"and then I come back from lunch and"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1979.413,"endTime":1982.173,"body":"they're like, oh, we're having like"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1982.173,"endTime":1983.733,"body":"an all, like, all of, all of us."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1983.733,"endTime":1984.573,"body":"Like, stop what you're doing."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1984.573,"endTime":1985.743,"body":"We're having the special meeting."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1985.743,"endTime":1986.793,"body":"And it was the three women."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1986.793,"endTime":1989.853,"body":"And I was like, and"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1986.793,"endTime":1989.853,"body":"they're like, we're cis."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1990.603,"endTime":1992.133,"body":"And they're like, and"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1990.603,"endTime":1992.133,"body":"we wanna call her out."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":1992.403,"endTime":1993.963,"body":"She's the only one that didn't let us in."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1994.786,"endTime":1995.686,"body":"That's too funny."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1995.856,"endTime":1999.786,"body":"that's a really fascinating story about,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1995.856,"endTime":1999.786,"body":"and it's even funny to think about the,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1999.786,"endTime":2001.136,"body":"uh, building being way underground."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2001.136,"endTime":2003.476,"body":"Like that just sounds like,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2001.136,"endTime":2003.476,"body":"oh, of course it's top secret."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2003.476,"endTime":2005.606,"body":"It's like way underground, but"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2003.476,"endTime":2005.606,"body":"you've been in these environments"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2005.606,"endTime":2008.886,"body":"that are highly secure, that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2005.606,"endTime":2008.886,"body":"are, secure from top to bottom."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2008.886,"endTime":2009.546,"body":"And so it sounds like."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2009.666,"endTime":2012.403,"body":"you have this mindset about, um, security."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2012.403,"endTime":2014.713,"body":"It's not just something you're coding,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2012.403,"endTime":2014.713,"body":"it's something you think about."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2014.713,"endTime":2017.923,"body":"It's how you think, it's how you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2014.713,"endTime":2017.923,"body":"act, it's how you breathe, and you've"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2017.923,"endTime":2020.083,"body":"made it part of who you are, Tanya."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2020.083,"endTime":2025.303,"body":"And so if someone else wants"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2020.083,"endTime":2025.303,"body":"to be more security minded."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2025.543,"endTime":2028.903,"body":"All in all, you know, there's obviously"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2025.543,"endTime":2028.903,"body":"lots of ways they can get started."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2028.903,"endTime":2031.423,"body":"They could read your book, they"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2028.903,"endTime":2031.423,"body":"can check out your courses."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2031.763,"endTime":2034.373,"body":"but ultimately, I think it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2031.763,"endTime":2034.373,"body":"comes down to habits, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2034.533,"endTime":2037.773,"body":"what are successful little things"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2034.533,"endTime":2037.773,"body":"that you could be doing every day?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2038.103,"endTime":2041.983,"body":"And our listeners, you know, a lot"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2038.103,"endTime":2041.983,"body":"of them, they're engineering leaders."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2041.983,"endTime":2043.453,"body":"They're, they're in charge of teams."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2043.573,"endTime":2046.273,"body":"They're trying to figure out"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2043.573,"endTime":2046.273,"body":"how to navigate their teams."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2046.273,"endTime":2049.153,"body":"Right now, there's a lot of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2046.273,"endTime":2049.153,"body":"hype, there's a lot of security"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2049.153,"endTime":2050.533,"body":"concerns too, that come with."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2050.778,"endTime":2051.918,"body":"Those hypes."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2052.158,"endTime":2057.728,"body":"So I wanna ask you, you know, in today's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2052.158,"endTime":2057.728,"body":"kind of like fast paced world, there's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2057.728,"endTime":2059.738,"body":"a lot of AI stuff too coming out."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2059.898,"endTime":2065.278,"body":"what are the things that you are,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2059.898,"endTime":2065.278,"body":"doing to stay proactive about security?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2066.278,"endTime":2070.11,"body":"something that I did when"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2066.278,"endTime":2070.11,"body":"I was a developer that I don't do now."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2070.14,"endTime":2073.02,"body":"'cause I have a very weird, like"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2070.14,"endTime":2073.02,"body":"I do developer relations like you,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2073.24,"endTime":2077.41,"body":"basically I talked to my boss and I"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2073.24,"endTime":2077.41,"body":"was like, listen, don't wanna take like"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2077.41,"endTime":2079.24,"body":"a few days off and go on a training."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2079.27,"endTime":2080.77,"body":"I don't feel like I have time for that."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2080.83,"endTime":2084.49,"body":"Can I have a two hour block of time week?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2085.045,"endTime":2089.545,"body":"And assuming I've gotten my other"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2085.045,"endTime":2089.545,"body":"tasks done, I do self training."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2090.355,"endTime":2093.615,"body":"And the first boss I asked"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2090.355,"endTime":2093.615,"body":"said, yeah, that sounds great."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2095.025,"endTime":2098.625,"body":"another boss was like, actually,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2095.025,"endTime":2098.625,"body":"we really need coverage from five"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2098.625,"endTime":2100.035,"body":"till six for incident response."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2100.035,"endTime":2102.765,"body":"So if you will stay from five till six."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2103.545,"endTime":2107.145,"body":"You can use that hour always for this,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2103.545,"endTime":2107.145,"body":"unless there's an incident, which by the"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2107.145,"endTime":2111.885,"body":"way, ended up only being about one week"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2107.145,"endTime":2111.885,"body":"a month because they were on fire anyway."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2112.035,"endTime":2113.265,"body":"Like they were literally on fire."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2113.265,"endTime":2114.405,"body":"I almost never got to use it,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2114.446,"endTime":2116.186,"body":"Of course, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2114.446,"endTime":2116.186,"body":"they have a, they have a standing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2116.186,"endTime":2119.096,"body":"incident response time for you to fill."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2119.242,"endTime":2122.242,"body":"But I, but I managed"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2119.242,"endTime":2122.242,"body":"to do three university courses"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2122.598,"endTime":2122.888,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2123.052,"endTime":2126.652,"body":"throughout like that"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2123.052,"endTime":2126.652,"body":"year, like by doing correspondence"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2126.652,"endTime":2130.882,"body":"during that one hour where we"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2126.652,"endTime":2130.882,"body":"just needed coverage and so."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2131.257,"endTime":2133.567,"body":"If you can have like a"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2131.257,"endTime":2133.567,"body":"regular learning block."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2133.627,"endTime":2136.687,"body":"For me personally, I"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2133.627,"endTime":2136.687,"body":"find that super helpful."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2136.867,"endTime":2140.947,"body":"So that basically like if everything's"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2136.867,"endTime":2140.947,"body":"just super wild that week and I just,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2140.947,"endTime":2146.017,"body":"I do feel overwhelmed, I can just roll"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2140.947,"endTime":2146.017,"body":"over that block and catch up on things."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2146.347,"endTime":2150.247,"body":"But if not, then it's like, it's"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2146.347,"endTime":2150.247,"body":"so cool to see yourself progress"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2150.547,"endTime":2155.042,"body":"through different courses and stuff"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2150.547,"endTime":2155.042,"body":"At the end, we'll give the free link"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2155.042,"endTime":2157.142,"body":"to my free online academy, right?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2157.142,"endTime":2158.492,"body":"Like you can take courses there."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2158.522,"endTime":2163.952,"body":"There are so many amazing content"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2158.522,"endTime":2163.952,"body":"creators are releasing things"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2163.952,"endTime":2168.302,"body":"for free or almost free that I"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2163.952,"endTime":2168.302,"body":"recommend like you search and try."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2168.302,"endTime":2171.842,"body":"Like when I was first learning, there"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2168.302,"endTime":2171.842,"body":"was not very much, but now Andrew,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2171.842,"endTime":2176.697,"body":"it's so rich find some content creators"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2171.842,"endTime":2176.697,"body":"you really like and then just absorb"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2176.847,"endTime":2178.347,"body":"everything that person's ever done."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2179.247,"endTime":2183.837,"body":"I'm a huge fan of, like, I find an"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2179.247,"endTime":2183.837,"body":"author, I read 100% of their books."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2184.143,"endTime":2184.853,"body":"Yes, me too."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2185.873,"endTime":2188.783,"body":"Yeah, you find someone that you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2185.873,"endTime":2188.783,"body":"really identify with, really vibe"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2188.783,"endTime":2192.353,"body":"with that like is writing to you,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2188.783,"endTime":2192.353,"body":"you know, making stuff for you."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2192.633,"endTime":2194.073,"body":"and you'll read everything they'll write."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2194.111,"endTime":2194.921,"body":"that's a really good call out."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2194.921,"endTime":2198.711,"body":"I love the idea of, of focusing on,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2194.921,"endTime":2198.711,"body":"individuals with security practices, with"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2198.711,"endTime":2204.091,"body":"security skills, and setting aside, of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2198.711,"endTime":2204.091,"body":"course the time for yourself to ingest"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2204.091,"endTime":2206.191,"body":"those to work on those week after week."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2206.531,"endTime":2208.961,"body":"it sounds like a good takeaway too,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2206.531,"endTime":2208.961,"body":"as if like you're a leader in charge"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2208.961,"endTime":2210.731,"body":"of a team to help maybe carve out."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2210.746,"endTime":2213.566,"body":"That time proactively for your developers."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2213.566,"endTime":2217.986,"body":"if you want them to be doing it, maybe"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2213.566,"endTime":2217.986,"body":"suggest, a block of time on a regular"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2217.986,"endTime":2221.346,"body":"basis where they're going through and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2217.986,"endTime":2221.346,"body":"doing things like security training."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2221.346,"endTime":2221.646,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2222.72,"endTime":2224.76,"body":"That's actually"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2222.72,"endTime":2224.76,"body":"what I did with my deaf teams."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2225.186,"endTime":2225.576,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2225.78,"endTime":2231.96,"body":"so I, I was like, okay,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2225.78,"endTime":2231.96,"body":"so I'm the CISO now 10 until noon"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2232.08,"endTime":2234.875,"body":"every Thursday is US learning block."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2235.543,"endTime":2238.003,"body":"so one guy was trying to learn"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2235.543,"endTime":2238.003,"body":"French as a second language so"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2238.003,"endTime":2240.523,"body":"he could get a promotion because"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2238.003,"endTime":2240.523,"body":"that's a whole thing in Canada."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2240.983,"endTime":2244.043,"body":"Like another guy was like perfecting"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2240.983,"endTime":2244.043,"body":"his threat modeling skills,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2244.133,"endTime":2247.163,"body":"And I was like, if someone books a"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2244.133,"endTime":2247.163,"body":"meeting during that time, I'm gonna"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2247.163,"endTime":2249.653,"body":"come and be like, frowny face Tanya."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2250.823,"endTime":2251.693,"body":"Disappointing."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2252.143,"endTime":2255.203,"body":"Like, look at you just like"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2252.143,"endTime":2255.203,"body":"your mom when you're a teenager."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2255.323,"endTime":2256.253,"body":"I'm giving you that look."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2256.854,"endTime":2258.454,"body":"Yeah, the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2256.854,"endTime":2258.454,"body":"classroom teacher vibe."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2258.503,"endTime":2258.833,"body":"well."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2259.064,"endTime":2259.784,"body":"it does work well."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2259.784,"endTime":2262.064,"body":"I mean, you have to obviously"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2259.784,"endTime":2262.064,"body":"carve out the time you have to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2262.064,"endTime":2263.264,"body":"make it important for your team."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2263.264,"endTime":2266.204,"body":"And then when things come across"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2263.264,"endTime":2266.204,"body":"the way and you have to be there for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2266.204,"endTime":2268.004,"body":"them and stick up for their time."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2268.004,"endTime":2271.894,"body":"And it goes back to even what you said"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2268.004,"endTime":2271.894,"body":"about, the developer who, gets all the way"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2271.894,"endTime":2274.984,"body":"to the finish line and they're like, oh,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2271.894,"endTime":2274.984,"body":"I'll do that last security, but next week."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2274.984,"endTime":2278.014,"body":"But then next week, you know, a whole"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2274.984,"endTime":2278.014,"body":"other new plate's gonna drop on them"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2278.014,"endTime":2279.544,"body":"and they gotta do all this other stuff."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2279.824,"endTime":2281.774,"body":"so, you know, it's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2279.824,"endTime":2281.774,"body":"important that when we're."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2282.324,"endTime":2285.834,"body":"Managing a team, and we have a whole"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2282.324,"endTime":2285.834,"body":"bunch of moving parts that we still"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2285.834,"endTime":2290.844,"body":"take the time to upskill, to pause, to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2285.834,"endTime":2290.844,"body":"reflect, and to learn on what we're doing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2291.064,"endTime":2294.287,"body":"Another question I have for you, this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2291.064,"endTime":2294.287,"body":"is a, this is another one about, um,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2294.297,"endTime":2296.757,"body":"kind of like hype and AI specifically."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2296.894,"endTime":2300.074,"body":"I think about like when I am"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2296.894,"endTime":2300.074,"body":"trying to figure out a question."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2300.104,"endTime":2303.974,"body":"As a developer, this has been a big"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2300.104,"endTime":2303.974,"body":"disrupt Now where it's like in the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2303.974,"endTime":2306.944,"body":"olden days, right, the olden days"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2303.974,"endTime":2306.944,"body":"being like two, three years ago, if"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2306.944,"endTime":2308.384,"body":"you had a question, you'd go and you'd."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2308.399,"endTime":2311.249,"body":"Google it, and you'd probably end"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2308.399,"endTime":2311.249,"body":"up on stack overflow looking at"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2311.249,"endTime":2315.419,"body":"somebody's not totally relevant"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2311.249,"endTime":2315.419,"body":"example for what you're doing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2315.469,"endTime":2316.939,"body":"but maybe it's relevant enough, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2317.069,"endTime":2319.799,"body":"and you can maybe put the pieces"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2317.069,"endTime":2319.799,"body":"together, go between them."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2320.049,"endTime":2322.959,"body":"this is kind of like how developers"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2320.049,"endTime":2322.959,"body":"historically have struggled through"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2322.959,"endTime":2327.399,"body":"learning and have, gotten through like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2322.959,"endTime":2327.399,"body":"programming problems as a group, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2327.399,"endTime":2330.009,"body":"Or, or going to search for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2327.399,"endTime":2330.009,"body":"how someone's done it before."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2330.064,"endTime":2334.964,"body":"Nowadays, what's more common is you're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2330.064,"endTime":2334.964,"body":"seeing like a interrogative with an ai."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2334.964,"endTime":2337.154,"body":"You're working with AI code"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2334.964,"endTime":2337.154,"body":"assistant, you're getting things"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2337.159,"endTime":2338.519,"body":"that it's suggesting back to you."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2338.519,"endTime":2341.039,"body":"Maybe you're never even going"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2338.519,"endTime":2341.039,"body":"to hit Google, you're never"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2341.039,"endTime":2342.509,"body":"going to stack overflow anymore."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2342.509,"endTime":2344.189,"body":"You're working in a more closed loop."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2344.589,"endTime":2347.509,"body":"do you, work that way"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2344.589,"endTime":2347.509,"body":"as a security person?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2347.509,"endTime":2349.459,"body":"What do you think about that practice?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2349.609,"endTime":2352.519,"body":"Kind of curious to get in your head"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2349.609,"endTime":2352.519,"body":"as a security minded person, how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2352.579,"endTime":2355.849,"body":"you're reflecting on folks that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2352.579,"endTime":2355.849,"body":"are using AI generated code now."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2356.646,"endTime":2361.881,"body":"So I literally rate before"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2356.646,"endTime":2361.881,"body":"we recorded this, gave a talk about that."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2362.211,"endTime":2367.151,"body":"And so I'm just gonna tell you old"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2362.211,"endTime":2367.151,"body":"answers, . So risks to using ai when"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2367.151,"endTime":2371.651,"body":"you software, like when you develop"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2367.151,"endTime":2371.651,"body":"software, are, so shadow ai, that means"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2371.651,"endTime":2376.361,"body":"like using AI that's not approved, Whether"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2371.651,"endTime":2376.361,"body":"it means like actually connecting it"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2376.361,"endTime":2380.051,"body":"to your app or it means like feeding"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2376.361,"endTime":2380.051,"body":"stuff into it that you shouldn't, or any"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2380.051,"endTime":2381.371,"body":"sort of like, we don't have a license."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2381.371,"endTime":2381.821,"body":"What are you doing?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2381.821,"endTime":2382.961,"body":"You're not supposed to use that one."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2383.321,"endTime":2384.311,"body":"This is the approved one."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2384.311,"endTime":2384.881,"body":"Use that one."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2385.151,"endTime":2385.541,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2385.781,"endTime":2388.241,"body":"So shadow ai, so please"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2385.781,"endTime":2388.241,"body":"don't do shadow ai."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2388.788,"endTime":2391.098,"body":"don't give it decision making abilities."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2391.563,"endTime":2396.363,"body":"For anything that is not irreversible,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2391.563,"endTime":2396.363,"body":"such as giving a refund permanently"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2396.363,"endTime":2400.713,"body":"banning someone, any sort of"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2396.363,"endTime":2400.713,"body":"transaction that is final, right?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2401.433,"endTime":2405.033,"body":"There should be another"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2401.433,"endTime":2405.033,"body":"secondary thing that checks"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2405.033,"endTime":2408.303,"body":"policy that is not the same ai."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2408.363,"endTime":2410.883,"body":"'cause you can't have AI check itself."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2411.363,"endTime":2414.483,"body":"You need to have something else,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2411.363,"endTime":2414.483,"body":"check it and validate that."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2414.823,"endTime":2418.123,"body":"not giving the AI agency, so"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2414.823,"endTime":2418.123,"body":"don't let it control itself."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2419.053,"endTime":2423.133,"body":"All of this, like Terminator movies,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2419.053,"endTime":2423.133,"body":"like all of that was just like, we"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2423.133,"endTime":2424.723,"body":"gave it agency and look what happened."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2424.933,"endTime":2426.193,"body":"Now, do I think that's gonna happen?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2426.193,"endTime":2426.403,"body":"No."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2426.403,"endTime":2427.903,"body":"But do I think bad things would happen?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2427.903,"endTime":2428.383,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2428.503,"endTime":2432.298,"body":"I don't think there'll be any Arnold"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2428.503,"endTime":2432.298,"body":"Schwarzenegger, robots from the future,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2432.534,"endTime":2433.069,"body":"Hopefully not"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2433.258,"endTime":2434.308,"body":"that it won't go well."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2434.908,"endTime":2436.708,"body":"we should not feed it sensitive data."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2436.708,"endTime":2440.518,"body":"And sometimes sensitive data is your"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2436.708,"endTime":2440.518,"body":"code, you should check if you're"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2440.518,"endTime":2443.008,"body":"allowed to feed code into the AI or not"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2443.789,"endTime":2444.959,"body":"When it writes code."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2444.989,"endTime":2448.679,"body":"So this is the one you asked about"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2444.989,"endTime":2448.679,"body":"and the most important one, it is very"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2448.679,"endTime":2453.989,"body":"important when it writes code that you"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2448.679,"endTime":2453.989,"body":"understand fully what the code does."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2455.099,"endTime":2459.119,"body":"And that you review it for any security"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2455.099,"endTime":2459.119,"body":"issues and run a, like a stack analysis"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2459.119,"endTime":2463.239,"body":"and a software composition analysis"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2459.119,"endTime":2463.239,"body":"type of tool on it to ensure that"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2463.239,"endTime":2466.269,"body":"for sure safe to add to your code."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2466.509,"endTime":2469.989,"body":"So just like you shouldn't copy and"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2466.509,"endTime":2469.989,"body":"paste anything from Stack Overflow"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2469.989,"endTime":2472.209,"body":"without understanding what you have done."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2472.659,"endTime":2472.929,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2472.929,"endTime":2476.319,"body":"And so if we do that and then we"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2472.929,"endTime":2476.319,"body":"run all the regular tests that"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2476.319,"endTime":2478.029,"body":"we would, we should be okay."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2478.269,"endTime":2482.789,"body":"The one thing that I wanna add to"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2478.269,"endTime":2482.789,"body":"that is that, Copyright and licensing."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2482.999,"endTime":2487.229,"body":"So if you ask it to like, it's like,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2482.999,"endTime":2487.229,"body":"oh, I need a function that does this"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2487.229,"endTime":2492.179,"body":"type of derivative, that's not gonna be"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2487.229,"endTime":2492.179,"body":"copywritten because math is math, right?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2492.179,"endTime":2494.159,"body":"Like someone can't copyright all of math."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2494.999,"endTime":2499.169,"body":"if you're like, I want you to make a"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2494.999,"endTime":2499.169,"body":"game that's like Frogger, except for"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2499.199,"endTime":2503.879,"body":"don't name it Frogger, you're gonna"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2499.199,"endTime":2503.879,"body":"end up in potential copyright issues."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2503.879,"endTime":2506.669,"body":"So you need, like, if you're"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2503.879,"endTime":2506.669,"body":"having it create an entire app for"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2506.669,"endTime":2508.889,"body":"you, you need to, first of all."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2509.234,"endTime":2510.674,"body":"Ask legal if that's okay."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2511.124,"endTime":2515.384,"body":"Ask legal if the copyright belongs to you"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2511.124,"endTime":2515.384,"body":"or if it actually belongs to the ai or"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2515.384,"endTime":2516.974,"body":"if it actually belongs to someone else."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2517.214,"endTime":2520.364,"body":"Like if it's creating an entire system"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2517.214,"endTime":2520.364,"body":"for you, you need to be careful."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2520.944,"endTime":2528.979,"body":"And so it's very important to be not"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2520.944,"endTime":2528.979,"body":"stealing others' work, which I'm not gonna"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2528.979,"endTime":2530.449,"body":"comment on how they train their models."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2530.779,"endTime":2534.409,"body":"No comment on that, but we are not"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2530.779,"endTime":2534.409,"body":"going to steal other people's work."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2534.509,"endTime":2538.829,"body":"the last thing is just like, no matter"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2534.509,"endTime":2538.829,"body":"what you ask it to do, like no matter"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2538.829,"endTime":2541.019,"body":"what, always validate that it's true."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2541.379,"endTime":2545.039,"body":"'cause it is wrong a lot and it acts"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2541.379,"endTime":2545.039,"body":"just as confident when it's wrong."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2545.235,"endTime":2547.9,"body":"Oh yes, the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2545.235,"endTime":2547.9,"body":"fake confidence is the killer."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2548.169,"endTime":2550.809,"body":"Like if it gives you"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2548.169,"endTime":2550.809,"body":"references, check the references."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2550.809,"endTime":2552.249,"body":"Half the time they don't exist."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2552.59,"endTime":2552.86,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2553.059,"endTime":2553.419,"body":"ask."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2554.199,"endTime":2557.439,"body":"sorts of things, and it's"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2554.199,"endTime":2557.439,"body":"like, yeah, here, here's 10"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2557.439,"endTime":2558.819,"body":"examples and blah, blah, blah."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2558.819,"endTime":2561.939,"body":"And then like eight of them, or"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2558.819,"endTime":2561.939,"body":"sometimes even 10 of them, don't exist."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2562.743,"endTime":2565.893,"body":"assume that it is a teenager"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2562.743,"endTime":2565.893,"body":"that has showed up really late"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2565.893,"endTime":2567.303,"body":"at night and smells like booze."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2568.094,"endTime":2568.184,"body":"Mm."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2568.323,"endTime":2570.843,"body":"maybe you don't"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2568.323,"endTime":2570.843,"body":"trust everything they say is true"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2571.139,"endTime":2572.039,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2572.073,"endTime":2572.673,"body":"were doing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2572.879,"endTime":2573.359,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2573.359,"endTime":2575.699,"body":"You maybe have to apply a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2573.359,"endTime":2575.699,"body":"little bit of skepticism."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2575.759,"endTime":2579.329,"body":"This is maybe what I would expect"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2575.759,"endTime":2579.329,"body":"from your perspective on it For sure."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2579.329,"endTime":2580.619,"body":"Especially when it comes to security."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2580.779,"endTime":2584.499,"body":"I would imagine that it knows a lot about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2580.779,"endTime":2584.499,"body":"security, but could have as many kind"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2584.499,"endTime":2586.239,"body":"of like, things that it misses as well."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2586.549,"endTime":2589.429,"body":"I say I, for those that are"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2586.549,"endTime":2589.429,"body":"listening, Tanya is shaking"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2589.429,"endTime":2591.349,"body":"her head vigorously at me."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2591.499,"endTime":2594.109,"body":"So I, I assume in your mind"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2591.499,"endTime":2594.109,"body":"that you don't think AI really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2594.109,"endTime":2595.429,"body":"knows anything about security."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2596.198,"endTime":2597.908,"body":"It is not that"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2596.198,"endTime":2597.908,"body":"it doesn't know anything."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2597.908,"endTime":2600.038,"body":"It's that it's like"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2597.908,"endTime":2600.038,"body":"wrong, like half the time."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2600.476,"endTime":2604.166,"body":"when I was researching my book, I was"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2600.476,"endTime":2604.166,"body":"like, oh, this is gonna be so great."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2604.496,"endTime":2607.076,"body":"I'm so excited to use AI to"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2604.496,"endTime":2607.076,"body":"help me research my book."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2607.076,"endTime":2611.338,"body":"And then, I am a self-proclaimed"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2607.076,"endTime":2611.338,"body":"expert at Secure Coding."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2611.668,"endTime":2612.598,"body":"And so here I am."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2612.598,"endTime":2615.628,"body":"I'm like, you know, give me like"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2612.598,"endTime":2615.628,"body":"top security tips for JavaScript."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2615.628,"endTime":2618.328,"body":"And I was like, wrong, wrong, wrong."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2620.514,"endTime":2621.894,"body":"One after another."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2622.798,"endTime":2623.098,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2623.098,"endTime":2624.778,"body":"So like two of them are like."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2625.093,"endTime":2626.383,"body":"Okay, these two are good."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2626.383,"endTime":2628.123,"body":"These two are not fricking JavaScript."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2628.853,"endTime":2633.023,"body":"these, like these, these four,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2628.853,"endTime":2633.023,"body":"like don't tell a Dev that Please."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2633.303,"endTime":2635.973,"body":"And of course"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2633.303,"endTime":2635.973,"body":"the LM was like, so like eager"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2635.973,"endTime":2636.993,"body":"to and happy and to help."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2636.993,"endTime":2638.883,"body":"And it was so proud of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2636.993,"endTime":2638.883,"body":"what it generated for you."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2638.883,"endTime":2641.793,"body":"And it knew that, that was like the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2638.883,"endTime":2641.793,"body":"standup list of the 10 best things that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2641.793,"endTime":2643.353,"body":"you wanted to see right in that moment."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2643.353,"endTime":2644.913,"body":"And it, and it used its full confidence."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2644.918,"endTime":2647.653,"body":"And, and that can be the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2644.918,"endTime":2647.653,"body":"danger, with security, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2647.653,"endTime":2648.193,"body":"Because."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2648.468,"endTime":2651.588,"body":"you have to have full confidence"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2648.468,"endTime":2651.588,"body":"yourself in, in what you're putting out."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2651.588,"endTime":2652.758,"body":"It goes back to the ownership."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2652.788,"endTime":2653.988,"body":"It's like that's where"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2652.788,"endTime":2653.988,"body":"ownership comes from."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2653.988,"endTime":2657.138,"body":"You have confidence in what you're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2653.988,"endTime":2657.138,"body":"making and what you're doing, so you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2657.138,"endTime":2661.038,"body":"can't let the LLM erode your confidence,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2657.138,"endTime":2661.038,"body":"I think is the takeaway there."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2661.799,"endTime":2664.259,"body":"when I create training,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2661.799,"endTime":2664.259,"body":"I create bad code, better code."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2664.259,"endTime":2664.919,"body":"Great code."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2665.804,"endTime":2670.304,"body":"so like the bad code, so like we learn"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2665.804,"endTime":2670.304,"body":"about input validation for example,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2670.394,"endTime":2675.464,"body":"and then bad code is like there's none"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2670.394,"endTime":2675.464,"body":"or it's implemented super bad, right?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2675.464,"endTime":2676.244,"body":"And then better code."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2676.244,"endTime":2680.174,"body":"So we're doing some that's cool and"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2676.244,"endTime":2680.174,"body":"then great code and I have like all"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2680.174,"endTime":2683.864,"body":"sorts of security on it and it's"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2680.174,"endTime":2683.864,"body":"just like so hardened and awesome."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2684.494,"endTime":2687.41,"body":"And so when I create"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2684.494,"endTime":2687.41,"body":"bad code, I just ask the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2687.421,"endTime":2687.641,"body":"Ah,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2687.71,"endTime":2687.86,"body":"to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2687.916,"endTime":2690.196,"body":"you just use it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2687.916,"endTime":2690.196,"body":"to go from zero to one, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2690.196,"endTime":2692.176,"body":"And then that's the bad code example."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2692.63,"endTime":2694.22,"body":"What I would say is bad code."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2694.22,"endTime":2697.19,"body":"It's almost always, in my"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2694.22,"endTime":2697.19,"body":"opinion, nowhere near good enough."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2697.636,"endTime":2697.856,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2698.06,"endTime":2699.02,"body":"I'm like, great, thanks."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2699.02,"endTime":2701.15,"body":"And then when I ask it to"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2699.02,"endTime":2701.15,"body":"create better code, I'll be"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2701.15,"endTime":2702.41,"body":"like, implement this, add this."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2702.41,"endTime":2704.69,"body":"And then I'm just like,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2702.41,"endTime":2704.69,"body":"no, no, I disagree."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2704.69,"endTime":2707.0,"body":"I'm adding, I'm adding No, no,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2704.69,"endTime":2707.0,"body":"delete that, blah, blah, blah."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2707.33,"endTime":2711.05,"body":"And So I usually have to create the"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2707.33,"endTime":2711.05,"body":"better code in great code all myself."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2711.65,"endTime":2715.32,"body":"I'm trying to figure out how I can like"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2711.65,"endTime":2715.32,"body":"get the ais to like learn more, because"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2715.32,"endTime":2717.51,"body":"they have to train on giant models."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2718.005,"endTime":2719.595,"body":"So anyway, I'm working on this problem."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2719.595,"endTime":2721.305,"body":"I'm trying to help everyone, but I'm not,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2722.051,"endTime":2722.951,"body":"So stay, stay tuned."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2722.951,"endTime":2723.431,"body":"Everyone."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2723.431,"endTime":2724.511,"body":"Tanya's on the case."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2724.511,"endTime":2727.121,"body":"She's gonna make sure that these"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2724.511,"endTime":2727.121,"body":"LLMs get a little more secure."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2727.121,"endTime":2730.061,"body":"this has been a, this has been a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2727.121,"endTime":2730.061,"body":"really great, kind of like a, I"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2730.061,"endTime":2731.561,"body":"think capstones of the conversation."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2731.561,"endTime":2733.901,"body":"'cause we've talked about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2731.561,"endTime":2733.901,"body":"misconceptions in security."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2733.901,"endTime":2737.981,"body":"We've talked about habits that, that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2733.901,"endTime":2737.981,"body":"successful security practitioners use."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2738.191,"endTime":2742.061,"body":"We've talked about how your background"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2738.191,"endTime":2742.061,"body":"has kind of, really shaped and evolved."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2742.061,"endTime":2746.381,"body":"How you view security, how you teach it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2742.061,"endTime":2746.381,"body":"as well, and, and why it's so important"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2746.381,"endTime":2748.216,"body":"to have it as a. Teaching practice."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2748.276,"endTime":2750.966,"body":"like many things we have"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2748.276,"endTime":2750.966,"body":"on Dev Interrupted, what we"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2750.966,"endTime":2752.586,"body":"discussed today is a skill."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2752.586,"endTime":2754.086,"body":"Security is a skill."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2754.206,"endTime":2759.076,"body":"And so like any skill, you can build"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2754.206,"endTime":2759.076,"body":"it, you can practice it, you can bake it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2759.076,"endTime":2760.786,"body":"into what you and your team are doing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2761.116,"endTime":2763.546,"body":"And so I want to just, uh,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2761.116,"endTime":2763.546,"body":"before we end here, you know,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2763.596,"endTime":2764.886,"body":"you talked a bit about your book."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2765.066,"endTime":2765.876,"body":"congratulations."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2765.876,"endTime":2768.186,"body":"First off, writing a book"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2765.876,"endTime":2768.186,"body":"is amazing and you did it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2768.196,"endTime":2769.156,"body":"Twice now."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2769.246,"endTime":2771.376,"body":"And so, more kudos to you."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2771.376,"endTime":2773.026,"body":"That's like an incredible accomplishment."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2773.246,"endTime":2775.586,"body":"if folks, you know, wanted to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2773.246,"endTime":2775.586,"body":"learn more about your writing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2775.586,"endTime":2778.646,"body":"or your book, where could they"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2775.586,"endTime":2778.646,"body":"go to, uh, see more about Tanya?"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2780.03,"endTime":2785.003,"body":"If you go to she"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2780.03,"endTime":2785.003,"body":"hacks purple.ca, there's all sorts"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2785.024,"endTime":2785.144,"body":"I."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2785.573,"endTime":2787.853,"body":"about my books"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2785.573,"endTime":2787.853,"body":"and where you can get them."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2788.513,"endTime":2793.293,"body":"There's also, my newsletter is available"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2788.513,"endTime":2793.293,"body":"there, and so a special weird thing"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2793.293,"endTime":2795.573,"body":"about my books is that I do free lessons."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2796.803,"endTime":2800.193,"body":"I did it for the first book and it was"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2796.803,"endTime":2800.193,"body":"just so fun and such a smashing success"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2800.193,"endTime":2801.723,"body":"and like obviously for the second book."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2801.773,"endTime":2805.373,"body":"And so either like April, may, or June,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2801.773,"endTime":2805.373,"body":"I'm gonna start doing a lesson every"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2805.373,"endTime":2806.843,"body":"month on every chapter of the book."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2806.843,"endTime":2807.623,"body":"And it's free."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2807.893,"endTime":2810.488,"body":"I'm gonna stream it on YouTube, but"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2807.893,"endTime":2810.488,"body":"if you wanna invite, you gotta join"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2810.488,"endTime":2812.033,"body":"the newsletter, which is also free."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2812.843,"endTime":2813.533,"body":"is not free."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2813.803,"endTime":2814.793,"body":"Please don't pirate it."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2815.603,"endTime":2816.743,"body":"Um, I."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2816.743,"endTime":2821.123,"body":"actually found out recently that my last"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2816.743,"endTime":2821.123,"body":"book was being pirated a few months ago."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2822.083,"endTime":2825.113,"body":"and it was actually malware"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2822.083,"endTime":2825.113,"body":"that then attacked your"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2825.214,"endTime":2827.194,"body":"Oh no, of course."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2827.603,"endTime":2829.193,"body":"that was"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2827.603,"endTime":2829.193,"body":"not me, just to be clear."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2829.497,"endTime":2831.687,"body":"Clearing the air,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2829.497,"endTime":2831.687,"body":"everybody, that was not Tanya."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2832.066,"endTime":2834.436,"body":"Was not Tanya,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2832.066,"endTime":2834.436,"body":"but also please don't pirate."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2834.946,"endTime":2838.226,"body":"Um, I worked so hard,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2834.946,"endTime":2838.226,"body":"but the rest is free."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2838.226,"endTime":2840.176,"body":"And so I would love it"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2838.226,"endTime":2840.176,"body":"if people would come."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2840.176,"endTime":2842.876,"body":"I'm gonna have a bunch of experts"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2840.176,"endTime":2842.876,"body":"on with me for every single chapter."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2842.876,"endTime":2845.246,"body":"We're gonna answer all the questions"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2842.876,"endTime":2845.246,"body":"at the back of the book, discuss"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2845.246,"endTime":2848.546,"body":"all the topics, and then answer all"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2845.246,"endTime":2848.546,"body":"the questions that the audience has."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2848.996,"endTime":2851.936,"body":"And then we're gonna save all of those"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2848.996,"endTime":2851.936,"body":"to YouTube, just like the last book,"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2852.086,"endTime":2855.086,"body":"so that if you miss one, it'll be"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2852.086,"endTime":2855.086,"body":"there for you whenever you are ready."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2855.652,"endTime":2856.102,"body":"Great."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2856.102,"endTime":2859.162,"body":"Well, it sounds like going back to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2856.102,"endTime":2859.162,"body":"having a security practice within your"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2859.162,"endTime":2862.582,"body":"team, carving out time, making it an"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2859.162,"endTime":2862.582,"body":"important practice, sounds like this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2862.582,"endTime":2866.902,"body":"is a, a great resource, for folks to go"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2862.582,"endTime":2866.902,"body":"and dig into as that regular practice."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2867.122,"endTime":2869.462,"body":"So we'll definitely include"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2867.122,"endTime":2869.462,"body":"it in our newsletter."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2869.652,"endTime":2871.662,"body":"it'll be in our show notes"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2869.652,"endTime":2871.662,"body":"as well for our listeners."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2871.997,"endTime":2873.377,"body":"so definitely be sure to check it out."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2873.467,"endTime":2875.507,"body":"And to you, our listener."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2875.557,"endTime":2878.979,"body":"thank you so much for joining"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2875.557,"endTime":2878.979,"body":"us, Be sure to follow the links"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2878.979,"endTime":2880.479,"body":"that are in our newsletter."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2880.479,"endTime":2882.069,"body":"Subscribe if you haven't already."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2882.219,"endTime":2884.259,"body":"Also, please reach out to us on socials."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2884.259,"endTime":2886.239,"body":"You know, Tanya and myself"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2884.259,"endTime":2886.239,"body":"are both on LinkedIn."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2886.239,"endTime":2891.129,"body":"We'd love to continue this conversation,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2886.239,"endTime":2891.129,"body":"get your take, hear your questions on"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2891.129,"endTime":2895.359,"body":"what we covered today, and definitely"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2891.129,"endTime":2895.359,"body":"be sure to check out her book as well."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2895.629,"endTime":2897.759,"body":"And thank you so much,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2895.629,"endTime":2897.759,"body":"Tanya, for joining us today."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2898.648,"endTime":2900.078,"body":"Thank you"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2898.648,"endTime":2900.078,"body":"so much for having me."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2900.078,"endTime":2902.208,"body":"I just realized we never"},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2900.078,"endTime":2902.208,"body":"said the name of the book."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2902.508,"endTime":2904.488,"body":"It's Alice and Bob Learn Secure Coding."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2904.829,"endTime":2906.689,"body":"No, that that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2904.829,"endTime":2906.689,"body":"sound, that's very relatable."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2906.689,"endTime":2907.109,"body":"That's me."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2907.139,"endTime":2908.639,"body":"You get all the way to the end"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2907.139,"endTime":2908.639,"body":"and you're like, wait, I didn't"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2908.639,"endTime":2909.839,"body":"even say the name of the book."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2909.989,"endTime":2911.039,"body":"The name of the book."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2911.039,"endTime":2915.029,"body":"Everyone is Alice and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2911.039,"endTime":2915.029,"body":"Bob Learn Secure Coding."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2915.179,"endTime":2918.029,"body":"So be sure to go check it out"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2915.179,"endTime":2918.029,"body":"and it'll be in our show notes."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2918.089,"endTime":2919.049,"body":"And thanks for listening."},{"speaker":"Tanya Janca","startTime":2919.588,"endTime":2920.008,"body":"Thank you."}]}