{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":6.054,"endTime":8.064,"body":"So welcome"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":6.054,"endTime":8.064,"body":"to Dev Interrupted."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":8.364,"endTime":9.884,"body":"I'm your host, Andrew Zigler."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":10.522,"endTime":12.262,"body":"And I'm"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":10.522,"endTime":12.262,"body":"your host Ben Lloyd Pearson."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":13.329,"endTime":16.119,"body":"This week we're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":13.329,"endTime":16.119,"body":"talking about how AI can talk to each"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":16.119,"endTime":21.579,"body":"other now, how it can use tools, and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":16.119,"endTime":21.579,"body":"ultimately the cost of politeness."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":21.969,"endTime":24.279,"body":"Well, as"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":21.969,"endTime":24.279,"body":"someone who considers myself"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":24.279,"endTime":26.349,"body":"a polite person, I wanna start"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":26.349,"endTime":26.739,"body":"there."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":26.94,"endTime":30.42,"body":"Okay, so this was a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":26.94,"endTime":30.42,"body":"story this week where people really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":30.42,"endTime":35.8,"body":"broke down the cost of saying things"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":30.42,"endTime":35.8,"body":"like, please, and thank you to ChatGPT."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":36.15,"endTime":39.27,"body":"And in this case, it was really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":36.15,"endTime":39.27,"body":"going deeper at the cost of, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":39.27,"endTime":43.56,"body":"know, saying those words requires"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":39.27,"endTime":43.56,"body":"the LLM to process them, just"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":43.56,"endTime":44.97,"body":"like any other part of your query."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":45.34,"endTime":50.38,"body":"Which ultimately uses more electricity,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":45.34,"endTime":50.38,"body":"affects more of the environment and people"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":50.38,"endTime":56.23,"body":"were even quantifying it in terms of spend"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":50.38,"endTime":56.23,"body":"saying that being polite to ChatGPT costs"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":56.24,"endTime":58.91,"body":"the platform tens of millions of dollars."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":58.95,"endTime":61.46,"body":"What do you think of this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":58.95,"endTime":61.46,"body":"kind of a polite madness?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":62.32,"endTime":65.333,"body":"well first of all, what"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":62.32,"endTime":65.333,"body":"if being polite gets you better answers"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":65.333,"endTime":67.103,"body":"and you don't have to do a second prompt?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":67.163,"endTime":70.433,"body":"Well, then suddenly it becomes"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":67.163,"endTime":70.433,"body":"an energy saver, does it not?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":71.5,"endTime":72.91,"body":"I"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":71.5,"endTime":72.91,"body":"completely agree with that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":73.0,"endTime":77.71,"body":"really the breakaway here is people were"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":73.0,"endTime":77.71,"body":"arguing that, saying Please, and thank"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":77.71,"endTime":82.36,"body":"you, is a powerful way of expressing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":77.71,"endTime":82.36,"body":"your meaning as part of your request."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":82.55,"endTime":86.96,"body":"and it also helps make the LLM understand"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":82.55,"endTime":86.96,"body":"the importance of what you're doing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":86.96,"endTime":88.58,"body":"compared to other parts of your request."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":88.61,"endTime":90.41,"body":"Ultimately, those words"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":88.61,"endTime":90.41,"body":"have function, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":90.44,"endTime":93.62,"body":"It's like we say them to each other and we"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":90.44,"endTime":93.62,"body":"think that we might, they might be empty."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":93.95,"endTime":97.13,"body":"Maybe we don't need to say them to a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":93.95,"endTime":97.13,"body":"machine, but semantically they're playing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":97.13,"endTime":99.8,"body":"a role in a lot of people's requests."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":99.8,"endTime":100.73,"body":"But you know what, Ben?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":100.76,"endTime":106.34,"body":"The one where maybe I agree with maybe"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":100.76,"endTime":106.34,"body":"we could get rid of it, is, uh, ending"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":106.34,"endTime":108.41,"body":"the chat session with just a thank you."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":108.533,"endTime":109.553,"body":"I'm not sure what that does."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":109.793,"endTime":110.483,"body":"Do you do that?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":110.706,"endTime":111.486,"body":"extra prompt."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":111.696,"endTime":116.136,"body":"So, you know, I used to be polite"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":111.696,"endTime":116.136,"body":"with, uh, with my AI models, but."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":116.608,"endTime":121.318,"body":"I've come to think that they probably"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":116.608,"endTime":121.318,"body":"appreciate brevity over politeness."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":121.318,"endTime":124.138,"body":"You know, they have a natural tendency"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":121.318,"endTime":124.138,"body":"to be pretty polite, so I think they"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":124.138,"endTime":125.243,"body":"just kind of want to get to the point,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":125.983,"endTime":128.503,"body":"yeah, it's something"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":125.983,"endTime":128.503,"body":"I do commonly in scenarios where I"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":128.503,"endTime":132.993,"body":"get results that I do or don't like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":128.503,"endTime":132.993,"body":"from an LLM, is I ask it to basically"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":133.263,"endTime":137.193,"body":"export, the instructions or the tone"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":133.263,"endTime":137.193,"body":"or the, concept of this conversation"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":137.193,"endTime":138.813,"body":"so I could share it with another LLM."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":139.023,"endTime":142.953,"body":"And those kinds of, um, kind of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":139.023,"endTime":142.953,"body":"like plug and play prompt things are"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":142.953,"endTime":146.236,"body":"always very brief, because the LLM"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":142.953,"endTime":146.236,"body":"knows that's talking to another LLM."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":146.236,"endTime":148.456,"body":"It doesn't really need"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":146.236,"endTime":148.456,"body":"to be all that polite."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":148.779,"endTime":149.879,"body":"Yeah, and I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":148.779,"endTime":149.879,"body":"mean, speaking of which we've"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":149.879,"endTime":154.019,"body":"covered on here, how, how AI chooses"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":149.879,"endTime":154.019,"body":"more efficient languages when"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":154.019,"endTime":156.209,"body":"it's speaking to other AI bots."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":156.209,"endTime":158.729,"body":"You know, the, the human language"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":156.209,"endTime":158.729,"body":"is actually kind of inefficient."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":158.934,"endTime":161.964,"body":"when it comes to conveying meaning, but,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":158.934,"endTime":161.964,"body":"you know, ultimately I think it's kind of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":162.039,"endTime":166.767,"body":"a, waste of, thought to think about the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":162.039,"endTime":166.767,"body":"energy usage of stuff like this, you know?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":167.047,"endTime":169.987,"body":"for one, like these things always"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":167.047,"endTime":169.987,"body":"become more efficient over time."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":169.987,"endTime":173.604,"body":"Like we're already seeing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":169.987,"endTime":173.604,"body":"massive, efficiency gains with ai."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":173.844,"endTime":175.104,"body":"That's only gonna continue."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":175.104,"endTime":178.104,"body":"And then we're gonna get to a point"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":175.104,"endTime":178.104,"body":"where the, models that people use"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":178.104,"endTime":180.744,"body":"day to day, like maybe there's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":178.104,"endTime":180.744,"body":"gonna be some extreme ones that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":180.979,"endTime":183.679,"body":"Take a ton of energy to run,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":180.979,"endTime":183.679,"body":"but the ones that we use day to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":183.679,"endTime":186.739,"body":"today are probably gonna be very"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":183.679,"endTime":186.739,"body":"efficient and pretty cheap to run."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":186.949,"endTime":191.179,"body":"but you know, if, if, if you wanna be"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":186.949,"endTime":191.179,"body":"polite, I think it's a good habit to have."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":191.179,"endTime":192.409,"body":"So just do it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":192.499,"endTime":198.109,"body":"Um, It's probably more efficient to speak"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":192.499,"endTime":198.109,"body":"to AI and emojis anyways, so if you're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":198.109,"endTime":201.799,"body":"not speaking in emojis, then you're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":198.109,"endTime":201.799,"body":"already not as efficient as you can be."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":202.279,"endTime":204.199,"body":"But, you know, make a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":202.279,"endTime":204.199,"body":"habit of being polite."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":204.199,"endTime":207.769,"body":"Just don't expect that you're gonna"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":204.199,"endTime":207.769,"body":"like, save the climate from doing so."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":208.541,"endTime":209.141,"body":"Completely."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":209.709,"endTime":209.919,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":209.919,"endTime":212.765,"body":"So let, let's talk about the,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":209.919,"endTime":212.765,"body":"uh, AI talking to each other."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":212.765,"endTime":213.905,"body":"What's our story on that one?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":214.676,"endTime":216.536,"body":"you know, we were"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":214.676,"endTime":216.536,"body":"talking just a moment ago about how we"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":216.536,"endTime":221.096,"body":"communicate with AI and how we can be"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":216.536,"endTime":221.096,"body":"polite or not well, new on the scene."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":221.391,"endTime":223.581,"body":"From Google, if you're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":221.391,"endTime":223.581,"body":"listening to this at Google."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":223.581,"endTime":227.661,"body":"Next they announced the agent to agent"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":223.581,"endTime":227.661,"body":"protocol, which is a new protocol that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":227.661,"endTime":233.854,"body":"allows an an AI agent and AI tool to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":227.661,"endTime":233.854,"body":"call out to another ai, in a structured,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":233.854,"endTime":238.474,"body":"repeatable way that allows then"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":233.854,"endTime":238.474,"body":"developers to build these interactions."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":238.494,"endTime":239.244,"body":"Scale."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":239.464,"endTime":242.344,"body":"it's similar to other things that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":239.464,"endTime":242.344,"body":"have come onto the ecosystem lately"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":242.344,"endTime":244.864,"body":"that we're gonna talk about a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":242.344,"endTime":244.864,"body":"little bit more in just a moment."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":245.134,"endTime":249.164,"body":"But, agent to agent protocol or a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":245.134,"endTime":249.164,"body":"to a protocol, if you've seen this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":249.164,"endTime":250.934,"body":"come across your feed or in news."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":251.154,"endTime":254.064,"body":"really just to break this down for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":251.154,"endTime":254.064,"body":"you, it's kind of like the idea"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":254.064,"endTime":258.864,"body":"of your LLM in a local tool or in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":254.064,"endTime":258.864,"body":"your client being able to call out"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":258.894,"endTime":261.204,"body":"almost like a, an an AI call center."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":261.224,"endTime":264.794,"body":"Where there's another AI agent"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":261.224,"endTime":264.794,"body":"somewhere that can provide more in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":264.794,"endTime":269.144,"body":"depth information related to the tool"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":264.794,"endTime":269.144,"body":"or the process that you're doing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":269.264,"endTime":273.694,"body":"So for example, if you have a local"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":269.264,"endTime":273.694,"body":"tool, that has an ai, built into it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":273.844,"endTime":277.894,"body":"and it needs to access maybe cloud"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":273.844,"endTime":277.894,"body":"data information on a third party"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":277.894,"endTime":282.574,"body":"service or otherwise interact with"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":277.894,"endTime":282.574,"body":"another AI workflow somewhere, it could"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":282.574,"endTime":287.794,"body":"use a to a, to have a structured and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":282.574,"endTime":287.794,"body":"repeatable conversation that both sides."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":287.804,"endTime":288.824,"body":"Can understand."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":288.824,"endTime":294.014,"body":"And so this opens a really, a whole new"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":288.824,"endTime":294.014,"body":"paradigm for how software developers"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":294.104,"endTime":297.794,"body":"should be thinking about building"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":294.104,"endTime":297.794,"body":"their products for LLM consumption."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":297.897,"endTime":300.507,"body":"Uh, it's really showing that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":297.897,"endTime":300.507,"body":"developers are not the only people"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":300.507,"endTime":301.887,"body":"that are gonna be using your tools."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":302.077,"endTime":305.537,"body":"and there's more dimensions in which"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":302.077,"endTime":305.537,"body":"AI will be, acting in their behalf."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":306.265,"endTime":308.755,"body":"and Google is a, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":306.265,"endTime":308.755,"body":"know, they, they have a long history"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":308.755,"endTime":312.715,"body":"of establishing these sort of like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":308.755,"endTime":312.715,"body":"industry standard organizations and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":312.715,"endTime":314.605,"body":"practices in open source projects."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":314.605,"endTime":314.905,"body":"So."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":315.26,"endTime":319.96,"body":"in very familiar hands, when it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":315.26,"endTime":319.96,"body":"comes to like a new protocol that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":319.96,"endTime":321.43,"body":"we really need for this space."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":321.59,"endTime":324.72,"body":"and they brought in some really big"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":321.59,"endTime":324.72,"body":"companies, like we're seeing OpenAI,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":324.74,"endTime":328.26,"body":"Hugging Face, Vercel those companies"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":324.74,"endTime":328.26,"body":"already in the loop, there's I think like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":328.26,"endTime":330.09,"body":"almost 50 of them are a part of this."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":330.645,"endTime":334.865,"body":"But I think what we really need to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":330.645,"endTime":334.865,"body":"think about here is that, AI is gonna"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":334.865,"endTime":339.785,"body":"fundamentally consume content and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":334.865,"endTime":339.785,"body":"resources differently from humans."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":339.815,"endTime":343.745,"body":"Like we have built the information"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":339.815,"endTime":343.745,"body":"aid to make it easier for humans"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":343.745,"endTime":347.465,"body":"to absorb information, process"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":343.745,"endTime":347.465,"body":"it, and do something with it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":347.945,"endTime":352.075,"body":"like you mentioned, human communication"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":347.945,"endTime":352.075,"body":"patterns often aren't the best"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":352.255,"endTime":354.555,"body":"for a AI to AI interactions."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":354.605,"endTime":358.525,"body":"You even think about like an"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":354.605,"endTime":358.525,"body":"API, for example, we built APIs"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":358.525,"endTime":361.975,"body":"for human developers to write"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":358.525,"endTime":361.975,"body":"code to interact with them."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":362.285,"endTime":366.205,"body":"some of those conventions will"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":362.285,"endTime":366.205,"body":"stay the same for ai, but, many of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":366.205,"endTime":367.795,"body":"them I think are likely to change."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":368.585,"endTime":371.975,"body":"which kind of gets into this, world"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":368.585,"endTime":371.975,"body":"that we're also seeing pop up a lot,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":371.975,"endTime":374.325,"body":"like the model control protocol."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":374.325,"endTime":377.535,"body":"Is that MCP, is that,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":374.325,"endTime":377.535,"body":"the correct terminology?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":378.267,"endTime":379.857,"body":"Oh, the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":378.267,"endTime":379.857,"body":"model context protocol."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":379.95,"endTime":380.575,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":380.575,"endTime":381.145,"body":"That's the one."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":381.145,"endTime":381.475,"body":"Sorry."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":381.475,"endTime":381.775,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":382.195,"endTime":385.615,"body":"Uh, you know, so like designing APIs"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":382.195,"endTime":385.615,"body":"and systems that are for machine"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":385.615,"endTime":387.875,"body":"consumption, which is pretty interesting."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":387.875,"endTime":391.745,"body":"So, and we're hearing more of this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":387.875,"endTime":391.745,"body":"concept of agent experience that's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":391.775,"endTime":394.855,"body":"heating up and, you know, it's just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":391.775,"endTime":394.855,"body":"another step along that journey."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":394.945,"endTime":398.305,"body":"You know, I think this is what"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":394.945,"endTime":398.305,"body":"we all kind of expected that AI"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":398.305,"endTime":399.745,"body":"maturity was gonna look like."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":400.461,"endTime":402.801,"body":"it's really an evolving"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":400.461,"endTime":402.801,"body":"space, and this is even just one"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":402.801,"endTime":404.241,"body":"of the new things on the scene."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":404.241,"endTime":407.007,"body":"You know, there's other tools,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":404.241,"endTime":407.007,"body":"other plays at, at force here"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":407.067,"endTime":408.512,"body":"with what an LLM can use."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":409.405,"endTime":412.165,"body":"Yeah, and, and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":409.405,"endTime":412.165,"body":"of course I already showed a little"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":412.165,"endTime":417.765,"body":"bit of my, naivete around this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":412.165,"endTime":417.765,"body":"subject, but Andrew, I don't know"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":417.795,"endTime":423.18,"body":"why I need an MCP server and at this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":417.795,"endTime":423.18,"body":"point, I'm kind of afraid to ask."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":423.387,"endTime":426.465,"body":"I've been told that you might be able"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":423.387,"endTime":426.465,"body":"to explain that to me with this, this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":426.465,"endTime":427.965,"body":"last article that we've got today."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":428.927,"endTime":431.807,"body":"Well, if you're asking"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":428.927,"endTime":431.807,"body":"yourself if you need one, well, I'm here"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":431.807,"endTime":433.577,"body":"to tell you that you need a lot of them."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":433.847,"endTime":437.777,"body":"MCP servers are really gonna be"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":433.847,"endTime":437.777,"body":"the future of how you can get"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":437.777,"endTime":440.807,"body":"more out of the applications"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":437.777,"endTime":440.807,"body":"and the tools that you're using."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":441.347,"endTime":445.907,"body":"Really just in simplest terms,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":441.347,"endTime":445.907,"body":"an MCP allows you to communicate"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":445.907,"endTime":449.707,"body":"in natural language, into an"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":445.907,"endTime":449.707,"body":"application's actual process."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":449.707,"endTime":454.724,"body":"And what this means is, for example,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":449.707,"endTime":454.724,"body":"being able to talk  to applications that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":454.784,"endTime":460.394,"body":"don't have, traditionally accessible"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":454.784,"endTime":460.394,"body":"workflows or experiences for its users."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":460.614,"endTime":463.354,"body":"and it's unlocking a lot of potential"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":460.614,"endTime":463.354,"body":"for people to get more outta the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":463.354,"endTime":465.004,"body":"applications that they use every day."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":465.274,"endTime":469.57,"body":"An example of a really great one from"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":465.274,"endTime":469.57,"body":"an article, that was out by, Andreessen"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":469.57,"endTime":472.24,"body":"Horowitz about MCP and its impact."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":472.43,"endTime":476.03,"body":"one of the things to showcase"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":472.43,"endTime":476.03,"body":"there was a blender MCP server."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":476.05,"endTime":480.55,"body":"Which I found very great and compelling"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":476.05,"endTime":480.55,"body":"for showing how it would allow you to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":480.55,"endTime":485.71,"body":"talk to an LLM Talk to Claude to talk"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":480.55,"endTime":485.71,"body":"to ChatGPT, and then give it structured"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":485.71,"endTime":491.14,"body":"repeatable tools that it can use to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":485.71,"endTime":491.14,"body":"apply your language to an application."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":491.14,"endTime":495.855,"body":"So being able to talk to Blender"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":491.14,"endTime":495.855,"body":"effectively is what MCP will give you."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":495.855,"endTime":498.615,"body":"Being able to talk directly to your"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":495.855,"endTime":498.615,"body":"applications without having to click"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":498.615,"endTime":501.915,"body":"a thousand buttons, without having"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":498.615,"endTime":501.915,"body":"to do that long intensive Google"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":501.915,"endTime":505.515,"body":"search without having to go to ChatGPT"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":501.915,"endTime":505.515,"body":"and ask it, Hey, how do I do this?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":505.755,"endTime":510.435,"body":"Now you can tell ChatGPT to do it and it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":505.755,"endTime":510.435,"body":"be able to make those tool calls for you."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":510.745,"endTime":518.13,"body":"And it does that with MCP servers,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":510.745,"endTime":518.13,"body":"MCP servers expose functionality APIs"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":518.13,"endTime":521.07,"body":"and services to be consumed by LLMs."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":521.41,"endTime":526.21,"body":"this opens up an entire ecosystem where"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":521.41,"endTime":526.21,"body":"developers are thinking and reimagining"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":526.36,"endTime":530.05,"body":"how their tools and products are to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":526.36,"endTime":530.05,"body":"be consumed by this new, kind of like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":530.05,"endTime":532.9,"body":"really legion of, of, of consumers."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":533.1,"endTime":535.68,"body":"as you're gonna learn from our"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":533.1,"endTime":535.68,"body":"guests, these consumers are, Calling"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":535.68,"endTime":539.82,"body":"these tools at a massive scale and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":535.68,"endTime":539.82,"body":"there's a huge call to action to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":539.82,"endTime":541.77,"body":"build and supply these types of tools."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":542.43,"endTime":544.805,"body":"So does that kind of clear"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":542.43,"endTime":544.805,"body":"up what MCP is for you?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":545.383,"endTime":549.313,"body":"yeah, actually it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":545.383,"endTime":549.313,"body":"clears it up very well, and I think what"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":549.313,"endTime":552.403,"body":"you're describing is vibe, productivity."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":553.172,"endTime":556.277,"body":"It is not too, far"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":553.172,"endTime":556.277,"body":"off, you know, uh, it really, it takes"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":556.277,"endTime":559.967,"body":"it one step further because you can"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":556.277,"endTime":559.967,"body":"even connect things like MCP servers"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":560.027,"endTime":564.407,"body":"to your maybe traditional, if you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":560.027,"endTime":564.407,"body":"can call it that vibe coding client,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":564.467,"endTime":567.107,"body":"so you could connect MCP servers."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":567.267,"endTime":571.887,"body":"To cursor, to add that tool calling"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":567.267,"endTime":571.887,"body":"to your vibe coding experience."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":571.977,"endTime":577.587,"body":"So, for example, something I did of this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":571.977,"endTime":577.587,"body":"recently hacking around in Cursor and, um,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":577.647,"endTime":583.237,"body":"what I was building a Telenet server and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":577.647,"endTime":583.237,"body":"I, I used an MCP Telenet protocol, server."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":583.852,"endTime":586.732,"body":"Within a cursor so that I would be"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":583.852,"endTime":586.732,"body":"able to talk to its own application."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":586.912,"endTime":590.392,"body":"So now I could talk to Cursor,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":586.912,"endTime":590.392,"body":"it could build and we could"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":590.392,"endTime":591.622,"body":"iterate through it together."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":591.652,"endTime":595.792,"body":"And then it had the functionality"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":591.652,"endTime":595.792,"body":"to call and launch its own server"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":595.852,"endTime":599.602,"body":"and then talk to it over Telnet and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":595.852,"endTime":599.602,"body":"figure out if it was working or if"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":599.602,"endTime":602.572,"body":"it was broken, or if it needed to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":599.602,"endTime":602.572,"body":"iterate in a different direction."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":602.572,"endTime":604.552,"body":"So that's a fully closed feedback loop."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":604.612,"endTime":609.622,"body":"I could practically observe that as a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":604.612,"endTime":609.622,"body":"developer, um, with very little influence."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":609.652,"endTime":613.372,"body":"So, uh, it really opens up a whole"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":609.652,"endTime":613.372,"body":"new world of thinking and using."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":613.75,"endTime":617.23,"body":"yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":613.75,"endTime":617.23,"body":"definitely feel the, so what I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":617.23,"endTime":618.7,"body":"think I've taken away from this."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":618.94,"endTime":622.24,"body":"we're entering a rapidly, entering"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":618.94,"endTime":622.24,"body":"a future where natural language"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":622.24,"endTime":626.02,"body":"is gonna become a pretty common"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":622.24,"endTime":626.02,"body":"interface to a lot of different tools."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":626.515,"endTime":629.515,"body":"So think about any tool that you use out"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":626.515,"endTime":629.515,"body":"there, you're probably gonna start having"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":629.515,"endTime":632.135,"body":"a conversation with it, before too long."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":632.135,"endTime":634.835,"body":"And I think blender's a great example"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":632.135,"endTime":634.835,"body":"'cause that is such an amazing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":634.835,"endTime":640.685,"body":"application, but has such a steep learning"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":634.835,"endTime":640.685,"body":"curve that if you can use AI and natural"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":640.685,"endTime":644.405,"body":"language to get around that, I don't"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":640.685,"endTime":644.405,"body":"know how much this would help a seasoned"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":644.405,"endTime":648.695,"body":"blender veteran, for example, but someone"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":644.405,"endTime":648.695,"body":"who's new to it and needs to learn it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":648.725,"endTime":652.055,"body":"Like I could absolutely see this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":648.725,"endTime":652.055,"body":"being a massive, massive benefit."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":652.549,"endTime":654.439,"body":"it really levels"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":652.549,"endTime":654.439,"body":"the playing field for everybody"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":654.499,"endTime":658.819,"body":"with creativity and determination"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":654.499,"endTime":658.819,"body":"to be able to enact change in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":658.819,"endTime":659.869,"body":"ways that they haven't before."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":660.362,"endTime":660.662,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":660.662,"endTime":663.182,"body":"And if I'm not mistaken, I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":660.662,"endTime":663.182,"body":"we have a guest today that is gonna"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":663.182,"endTime":667.562,"body":"talk about MCP servers for the first"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":663.182,"endTime":667.562,"body":"time in Dev Interrupted history."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":667.562,"endTime":669.182,"body":"Why don't you tell us about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":667.562,"endTime":669.182,"body":"who we have today, Andrew?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":669.859,"endTime":670.369,"body":"Oh yes."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":670.399,"endTime":674.862,"body":"So our guest today, his name is Sagar"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":670.399,"endTime":674.862,"body":"Batchu, and he's going to really reorient"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":674.862,"endTime":678.042,"body":"you about how you think about your APIs"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":674.862,"endTime":678.042,"body":"and your tools because if you think that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":678.042,"endTime":682.182,"body":"your API problem is just some bad docs"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":678.042,"endTime":682.182,"body":"or clunky endpoints, well, I'm sorry, but"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":682.182,"endTime":687.132,"body":"the whole field has changed and Sagar's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":682.182,"endTime":687.132,"body":"gonna break that down for us and show how."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":687.517,"endTime":691.087,"body":"You and your team can take best advantage"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":687.517,"endTime":691.087,"body":"of it because it turns out that the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":691.087,"endTime":695.767,"body":"real problem with your API design is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":691.087,"endTime":695.767,"body":"probably in your org chart, so stay tuned."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":698.506,"endTime":701.741,"body":"The future of developer"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":698.506,"endTime":701.741,"body":"productivity is here and it's AI driven."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":702.271,"endTime":706.261,"body":"Join LinearB B this week for a 30"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":702.271,"endTime":706.261,"body":"minute demo showcasing groundbreaking"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":706.291,"endTime":708.511,"body":"AI powered productivity features."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":708.751,"endTime":713.131,"body":"You'll see live examples of AI code"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":708.751,"endTime":713.131,"body":"reviews, automated PR descriptions,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":713.161,"endTime":714.811,"body":"and smart iteration summaries."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":714.971,"endTime":717.741,"body":"Plus get all of your questions"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":714.971,"endTime":717.741,"body":"answered in a live Q\u0026A."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":718.211,"endTime":720.851,"body":"Don't miss your chance to see"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":718.211,"endTime":720.851,"body":"how AI is transforming the way"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":720.851,"endTime":722.231,"body":"your engineering team works."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":722.351,"endTime":723.521,"body":"Save your spot today."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":726.193,"endTime":730.363,"body":"Today we're discussing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":726.193,"endTime":730.363,"body":"how building APIs isn't just a technical"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":730.363,"endTime":732.889,"body":"problem, it's an organizational challenge."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":733.219,"endTime":736.279,"body":"And to break this down for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":733.219,"endTime":736.279,"body":"us, we have Sagar Batchu,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":736.579,"endTime":738.739,"body":"co-founder and CEO of Speakeasy."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":738.889,"endTime":743.389,"body":"He spent years scaling enterprise"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":738.889,"endTime":743.389,"body":"APIs, tackling developer experience"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":743.389,"endTime":748.309,"body":"challenges, and now he's solving the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":743.389,"endTime":748.309,"body":"messy reality of API adoption at scale."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":748.839,"endTime":750.049,"body":"Sagar, welcome to the show."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":750.649,"endTime":751.939,"body":"Andrew,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":750.649,"endTime":751.939,"body":"thanks so much for having me"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":752.155,"endTime":754.525,"body":"Yeah, it's great to have"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":752.155,"endTime":754.525,"body":"you and we're really excited to dig in."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":754.575,"endTime":757.555,"body":"APIs are, something that's been"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":754.575,"endTime":757.555,"body":"around for a long time, but"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":757.555,"endTime":759.085,"body":"they're constantly evolving."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":759.265,"endTime":762.475,"body":"They're fickle monsters for sure,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":759.265,"endTime":762.475,"body":"and the definitions for what makes"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":762.475,"endTime":765.57,"body":"something an API and what makes it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":762.475,"endTime":765.57,"body":"successful seem to keep shifting."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":765.57,"endTime":769.14,"body":"So I'm really excited to dig into"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":765.57,"endTime":769.14,"body":"this conversation, tap into some"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":769.14,"endTime":771.75,"body":"of your wisdom and what you're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":769.14,"endTime":771.75,"body":"seeing out there in the field."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":772.24,"endTime":773.98,"body":"I wanna start though"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":772.24,"endTime":773.98,"body":"by setting the stakes."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":774.04,"endTime":777.71,"body":"You know, again, for our listeners, if"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":774.04,"endTime":777.71,"body":"you're a company with an API product,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":777.71,"endTime":782.42,"body":"you probably want to be the next Stripe"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":777.71,"endTime":782.42,"body":"or Twilio, and you want to killer API."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":783.265,"endTime":786.145,"body":"You want a developer friendly"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":783.265,"endTime":786.145,"body":"experience and you want that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":786.145,"endTime":788.545,"body":"sweet, sweet self-serve adoption."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":788.545,"endTime":792.205,"body":"You want it to be easy and you want"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":788.545,"endTime":792.205,"body":"it to be frictionless for people"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":792.205,"endTime":794.815,"body":"to actually integrate your API into"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":792.205,"endTime":794.815,"body":"what they're building and using."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":795.355,"endTime":800.485,"body":"But even API first companies can"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":795.355,"endTime":800.485,"body":"struggle to make APIs a priority."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":800.965,"endTime":805.825,"body":"So Sagar, where do you see"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":800.965,"endTime":805.825,"body":"successful APIs begin in a company?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":806.609,"endTime":807.929,"body":"Yeah, it's a great question."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":807.929,"endTime":811.679,"body":"Andrew and I wholeheartedly"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":807.929,"endTime":811.679,"body":"agree with this idea that APIs"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":811.679,"endTime":815.189,"body":"are more an organizational"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":811.679,"endTime":815.189,"body":"problem than a technical one."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":815.569,"endTime":819.059,"body":"The technology of running an"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":815.569,"endTime":819.059,"body":"API is largely commoditized."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":819.469,"endTime":823.909,"body":"but what makes running great API comes"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":819.469,"endTime":823.909,"body":"down to how a company's set up to,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":824.329,"endTime":828.319,"body":"bring that API to market, to evolve"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":824.329,"endTime":828.319,"body":"it, to design it, to serve customers."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":828.719,"endTime":831.689,"body":"so I think it really starts"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":828.719,"endTime":831.689,"body":"internally with the, with the"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":832.139,"endTime":833.909,"body":"sense of excellence, right?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":833.909,"endTime":837.089,"body":"Wanting to put out the best API"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":833.909,"endTime":837.089,"body":"out there for your business."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":837.399,"endTime":841.897,"body":"I think for most companies, APIs"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":837.399,"endTime":841.897,"body":"are actually, a post product"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":841.897,"endTime":844.447,"body":"market fit problem In that"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":844.627,"endTime":846.909,"body":"you have to figure out"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":844.627,"endTime":846.909,"body":"what your business does."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":846.909,"endTime":850.258,"body":"What super power does"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":846.909,"endTime":850.258,"body":"your business give users."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":850.358,"endTime":853.713,"body":"whether they're developers or"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":850.358,"endTime":853.713,"body":"consumers or, you know, whatever"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":853.713,"endTime":855.483,"body":"part, whatever user out there."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":855.853,"endTime":858.703,"body":"once you figure that out, an"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":855.853,"endTime":858.703,"body":"API can be a massive accelerant."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":858.703,"endTime":863.203,"body":"It can be a differentiator, it can be"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":858.703,"endTime":863.203,"body":"a go-to market it can be a developer"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":863.203,"endTime":865.613,"body":"tool, kind of an ecosystem enabler."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":865.613,"endTime":869.023,"body":"And I think because of that, it's,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":865.613,"endTime":869.023,"body":"it's really a post PMF question."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":869.743,"endTime":870.698,"body":"So I think obviously you."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":872.768,"endTime":877.158,"body":"Once you do, I'm sure every founder,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":872.768,"endTime":877.158,"body":"every business owner will say they want"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":878.088,"endTime":879.978,"body":"their product or business be the best."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":880.038,"endTime":882.618,"body":"And I think in APIs"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":880.038,"endTime":882.618,"body":"different, it's a product."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":883.008,"endTime":885.768,"body":"And so I think it starts with the"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":883.008,"endTime":885.768,"body":"center of excellence around that."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":885.768,"endTime":888.228,"body":"Internally, very similar"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":885.768,"endTime":888.228,"body":"to, you know, how."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":889.043,"endTime":890.123,"body":"Products are very visual."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":890.123,"endTime":894.563,"body":"Like some of the best apps we use, like"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":890.123,"endTime":894.563,"body":"social platform apps, they have huge"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":894.563,"endTime":899.213,"body":"design teams internally that kind of"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":894.563,"endTime":899.213,"body":"obsess over every micro interaction,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":899.483,"endTime":902.153,"body":"every component in the user experience."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":902.723,"endTime":906.623,"body":"You know, like the stories of designers"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":902.723,"endTime":906.623,"body":"from Airbnb and Instagram and how they're"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":906.623,"endTime":908.483,"body":"kind of best designers in industry."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":908.963,"endTime":910.583,"body":"Um, I think API design is similar."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":910.583,"endTime":915.023,"body":"Like if you want the best designed"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":910.583,"endTime":915.023,"body":"API, you need people who know what"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":915.023,"endTime":919.283,"body":"that looks like, who have a pulse"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":915.023,"endTime":919.283,"body":"on the ecosystem of API development."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":919.829,"endTime":924.119,"body":"what makes APIs maybe a more challenging"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":919.829,"endTime":924.119,"body":"than usual experience sometimes"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":924.119,"endTime":928.289,"body":"I think is or underappreciated,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":924.119,"endTime":928.289,"body":"is that once you put an API out"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":928.289,"endTime":930.119,"body":"there, it's very hard to roll back."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":930.464,"endTime":933.104,"body":"It's very, there's kind of"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":930.464,"endTime":933.104,"body":"this saying around APIs that"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":933.404,"endTime":934.994,"body":"all APIs are stuck on V one."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":935.294,"endTime":939.464,"body":"It's very hard to evolve them because you,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":935.294,"endTime":939.464,"body":"you're basically putting something out"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":939.464,"endTime":943.154,"body":"there that other businesses will build on"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":939.464,"endTime":943.154,"body":"top of, and so it becomes a dependency."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":943.544,"endTime":947.414,"body":"And so change management is a very"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":943.544,"endTime":947.414,"body":"difficult concept for these businesses."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":947.871,"endTime":950.661,"body":"so yeah, long-winded way of saying, I"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":947.871,"endTime":950.661,"body":"think it, it really starts the center of"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":950.661,"endTime":955.161,"body":"excellence, making sure someone internally"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":950.661,"endTime":955.161,"body":"owns how the API looks and feels."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":955.281,"endTime":957.381,"body":"and I think that's a"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":955.281,"endTime":957.381,"body":"really good place to start."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":958.112,"endTime":960.242,"body":"you make a really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":958.112,"endTime":960.242,"body":"good point, drawing some parallels"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":960.242,"endTime":964.622,"body":"between teams that care a lot about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":960.242,"endTime":964.622,"body":"design or about the user experience."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":964.622,"endTime":968.372,"body":"Investing resources into that,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":964.622,"endTime":968.372,"body":"putting, uh, time and energy"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":968.372,"endTime":969.662,"body":"into those teams to actually."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":970.122,"endTime":971.652,"body":"Prop up that experience."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":971.652,"endTime":976.102,"body":"And so within a company, if a company"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":971.652,"endTime":976.102,"body":"is building, an API that they're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":976.102,"endTime":980.292,"body":"going to serve to, their customers"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":976.102,"endTime":980.292,"body":"or to their end users, is there a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":980.292,"endTime":984.072,"body":"specific place in the company where"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":980.292,"endTime":984.072,"body":"you see that most successfully start?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":984.072,"endTime":987.732,"body":"Is that something that maybe is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":984.072,"endTime":987.732,"body":"democratized between a bunch of teams"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":987.732,"endTime":989.282,"body":"or is it, is it siloed in one place?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":989.967,"endTime":992.997,"body":"I think when you're small,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":989.967,"endTime":992.997,"body":"it's good to just have a single owner."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":993.027,"endTime":997.587,"body":"And if you're a small business with"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":993.027,"endTime":997.587,"body":"a small API, just one API, then"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":997.617,"endTime":1000.927,"body":"yeah, I think you just need one"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":997.617,"endTime":1000.927,"body":"team owning it, end to end from"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1000.927,"endTime":1005.722,"body":"design to deployment to, developer"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1000.927,"endTime":1005.722,"body":"tooling and the ongoing maintenance."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1006.862,"endTime":1010.732,"body":"But once you get to scale, we find"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1006.862,"endTime":1010.732,"body":"that individual products have their"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1010.732,"endTime":1014.922,"body":"own a. this is where like Conway's"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1010.732,"endTime":1014.922,"body":"law becomes really applicable, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1015.118,"endTime":1015.418,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1015.912,"endTime":1020.112,"body":"Conway's Law being that"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1015.912,"endTime":1020.112,"body":"kind of states we end up shipping"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1020.112,"endTime":1023.832,"body":"product that looks like our business,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1020.112,"endTime":1023.832,"body":"uh, than what the customer wants."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1023.832,"endTime":1026.502,"body":"If you have five teams, your"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1023.832,"endTime":1026.502,"body":"a p is gonna look like it was"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1026.502,"endTime":1028.272,"body":"designed by five different people."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1028.582,"endTime":1033.626,"body":"I think what you wanna do to avoid, in"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1028.582,"endTime":1033.626,"body":"my opinion, is, enable your teams to a"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1037.526,"endTime":1037.946,"body":"enable."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1041.266,"endTime":1042.016,"body":"To production."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1042.016,"endTime":1045.436,"body":"I think it's important to have"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1042.016,"endTime":1045.436,"body":"a single API owner sometimes."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1045.436,"endTime":1047.686,"body":"This is called an API"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1045.436,"endTime":1047.686,"body":"platform team at a company."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1048.076,"endTime":1052.036,"body":"Larger ones who ensure kind"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1048.076,"endTime":1052.036,"body":"of a governance of standards."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1052.396,"endTime":1057.046,"body":"They, they play the role of governance,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1052.396,"endTime":1057.046,"body":"of standards across all the APIs, and so"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1057.646,"endTime":1060.586,"body":"internally it's five teams developing a P."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1060.826,"endTime":1064.516,"body":"But externally from the customer's point"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1060.826,"endTime":1064.516,"body":"of view, it looks like this one person"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1067.096,"endTime":1067.756,"body":"organizational."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1070.396,"endTime":1072.376,"body":"If you're a small company,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1070.396,"endTime":1072.376,"body":"it's a simple problem."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1072.376,"endTime":1074.536,"body":"Don't try to distribute"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1072.376,"endTime":1074.536,"body":"it, distribute the problem."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1074.806,"endTime":1078.346,"body":"If you're a big company, just"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1074.806,"endTime":1078.346,"body":"make sure there's a kind of last"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1078.346,"endTime":1082.966,"body":"mile gate in place to ensure a,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1078.346,"endTime":1082.966,"body":"a consistent design experience."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1083.612,"endTime":1085.792,"body":"Just like how you'd"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1083.612,"endTime":1085.792,"body":"have like a product manager that's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1085.792,"endTime":1090.022,"body":"in charge at the very end, you know,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1085.792,"endTime":1090.022,"body":"someone, a sole owner of what is gonna"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1090.022,"endTime":1094.242,"body":"be used By the end user or whoever's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1090.022,"endTime":1094.242,"body":"gonna be consuming your application."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1094.242,"endTime":1094.542,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1094.542,"endTime":1097.812,"body":"And that person, their job is to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1094.542,"endTime":1097.812,"body":"liaison between all the different"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1097.812,"endTime":1100.242,"body":"teams and all the different assets"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1097.812,"endTime":1100.242,"body":"and all the different needs to make"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1100.242,"endTime":1102.552,"body":"sure it is a cohesive experience."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1102.822,"endTime":1103.812,"body":"You know, what you're calling out with."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1103.812,"endTime":1105.972,"body":"APIs is really top of mind for me too."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1105.972,"endTime":1110.292,"body":"I think of all the best APIs I've used"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1105.972,"endTime":1110.292,"body":"and even if like they had a huge varieties"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1110.292,"endTime":1113.965,"body":"of stuff that they could do, or like a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1110.292,"endTime":1113.965,"body":"lot of different endpoints that maybe"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1113.965,"endTime":1115.705,"body":"are very different from each other."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1115.765,"endTime":1118.165,"body":"At the end of the day, they all"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1115.765,"endTime":1118.165,"body":"kind of still have the same shape."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1118.37,"endTime":1122.42,"body":"Them smell at least the successful ones"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1118.37,"endTime":1122.42,"body":"that, that I use and that get sticky."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1122.67,"endTime":1126.54,"body":"so it makes sense that you'd have"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1122.67,"endTime":1126.54,"body":"one person or one team kind of owning"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1126.54,"endTime":1128.25,"body":"it before it goes out the door."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1128.49,"endTime":1132.39,"body":"And that's like for, that's like how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1128.49,"endTime":1132.39,"body":"an API first company would like adopt"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1132.39,"endTime":1136.32,"body":"that would, would think and would"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1132.39,"endTime":1136.32,"body":"organize themselves with that mentality."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1136.62,"endTime":1140.37,"body":"but does any, any of this matter,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1136.62,"endTime":1140.37,"body":"if you're not an API first company,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1140.37,"endTime":1145.14,"body":"if you're maybe building internal"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1140.37,"endTime":1145.14,"body":"or self-serve APIs, does, does"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1145.14,"endTime":1146.46,"body":"this become less important?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1147.179,"endTime":1152.094,"body":"Yeah, that's a, that's"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1147.179,"endTime":1152.094,"body":"a. APIs a, little bit like a, like"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1152.094,"endTime":1157.074,"body":"the iceberg effect where you have the"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1152.094,"endTime":1157.074,"body":"majority of APIs actually internal."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1157.449,"endTime":1161.469,"body":"And so like below the, the waterline"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1157.449,"endTime":1161.469,"body":"is actually all those millions"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1161.469,"endTime":1163.359,"body":"of internal APIs we don't see."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1163.359,"endTime":1168.339,"body":"And then the ones above the waterline"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1163.359,"endTime":1168.339,"body":"are like the few first businesses"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1168.339,"endTime":1170.649,"body":"that also have external facing APIs."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1170.689,"endTime":1174.439,"body":"most of it is actually an internal"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1170.689,"endTime":1174.439,"body":"problem with the internal case."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1174.439,"endTime":1177.809,"body":"Like sure, there isn't as much of"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1174.439,"endTime":1177.809,"body":"a. I think you're somewhat more"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1177.809,"endTime":1183.059,"body":"inoculated from inconsistencies because"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1177.809,"endTime":1183.059,"body":"the, the user is fundamentally more"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1183.059,"endTime":1185.039,"body":"tolerant being an internal user."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1185.496,"endTime":1188.406,"body":"however, I think designing with"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1185.496,"endTime":1188.406,"body":"the same principles in place"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1188.796,"endTime":1190.236,"body":"will lead to a good outcome."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1190.786,"endTime":1193.036,"body":"but internally the problems"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1190.786,"endTime":1193.036,"body":"we see are less about."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1193.906,"endTime":1197.986,"body":"Consistency, quality and governance"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1193.906,"endTime":1197.986,"body":"and more around discoverability"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1198.016,"endTime":1202.746,"body":"access and development speed or,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1198.016,"endTime":1202.746,"body":"you know, ease of development."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1203.436,"endTime":1207.456,"body":"so I think for companies focus"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1203.436,"endTime":1207.456,"body":"on this as an internal problem."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1207.456,"endTime":1211.156,"body":"I would actually start by saying the"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1207.456,"endTime":1211.156,"body":"first step really comes down to like"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1211.156,"endTime":1214.816,"body":"discovery and cataloging and making"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1211.156,"endTime":1214.816,"body":"sure you have the tools in place"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1214.866,"endTime":1216.546,"body":"to know all the APIs that you have."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1217.381,"endTime":1220.381,"body":"I'm talking really big companies with,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1217.381,"endTime":1220.381,"body":"you know, hundreds of product teams,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1220.681,"endTime":1224.924,"body":"the few that we work with where yeah,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1220.681,"endTime":1224.924,"body":"they have incredible number of internal"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1224.924,"endTime":1228.974,"body":"APIs and they've done such a good job"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1224.924,"endTime":1228.974,"body":"enabling their teams to build new ones"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1228.974,"endTime":1231.344,"body":"that, like they spawn left and right."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1231.404,"endTime":1235.327,"body":"And so they need kind of a structure or"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1231.404,"endTime":1235.327,"body":"methodology around keeping track of them."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1235.597,"endTime":1238.391,"body":"It can be done through tooling and"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1235.597,"endTime":1238.391,"body":"automation of course, but, it's a"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1238.391,"endTime":1239.621,"body":"slightly different flavor of the."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1241.095,"endTime":1244.785,"body":"when you are a large"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1241.095,"endTime":1244.785,"body":"company or a small company and then"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1245.185,"endTime":1249.105,"body":"suddenly you need something like,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1245.185,"endTime":1249.105,"body":"that's easy to scale or serve to your"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1249.105,"endTime":1252.945,"body":"developer teams, then that's kind of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1249.105,"endTime":1252.945,"body":"where an API might come into the mix."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1253.005,"endTime":1255.562,"body":"So in, in your experience in the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1253.005,"endTime":1255.562,"body":"teams that you've worked with,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1255.562,"endTime":1257.272,"body":"are there scenarios where maybe."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1257.632,"endTime":1260.692,"body":"One day a company wakes up and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1257.632,"endTime":1260.692,"body":"they're like, oh, we really need"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1260.692,"endTime":1262.672,"body":"to organize around an internal API."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1262.672,"endTime":1267.112,"body":"We need to provide something in an API"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1262.672,"endTime":1267.112,"body":"like way for our developers to be using."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1267.502,"endTime":1270.292,"body":"or is that a problem that's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1267.502,"endTime":1270.292,"body":"kind of native to the company?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1270.352,"endTime":1272.902,"body":"Like when you founded that company,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1270.352,"endTime":1272.902,"body":"you already knew that that was"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1272.902,"endTime":1274.312,"body":"the problem you were gonna solve."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1274.592,"endTime":1276.692,"body":"versus it's something"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1274.592,"endTime":1276.692,"body":"that just pops up one day."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1277.377,"endTime":1280.124,"body":"a large number"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1277.377,"endTime":1280.124,"body":"of companies we see, like, they"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1280.124,"endTime":1281.684,"body":"don't realize that this is coming."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1281.684,"endTime":1283.394,"body":"Like they don't realize this is an issue."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1283.777,"endTime":1288.937,"body":"I think what happens is they"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1283.777,"endTime":1288.937,"body":"hit PMF and they start scaling."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1288.937,"endTime":1292.514,"body":"And when you talk to founders who"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1288.937,"endTime":1292.514,"body":"have hit PMF, they come under such"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1292.514,"endTime":1296.744,"body":"pressure to start scaling the business"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1292.514,"endTime":1296.744,"body":"and there's like incredible demands."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1296.744,"endTime":1301.394,"body":"so I don't think they necessarily always"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1296.744,"endTime":1301.394,"body":"foresee the road how the API could"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1301.394,"endTime":1303.224,"body":"become messy or difficult to work with."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1303.584,"endTime":1303.944,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1303.98,"endTime":1304.22,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1304.814,"endTime":1306.271,"body":"it's, you"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1304.814,"endTime":1306.271,"body":"can't blame anyone, right?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1306.271,"endTime":1309.751,"body":"Because they're kind of focused on growth"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1306.271,"endTime":1309.751,"body":"and everything else kind of comes second."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1310.157,"endTime":1315.917,"body":"but there are steps you can take upfront"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1310.157,"endTime":1315.917,"body":"to actually ensure that long term."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1316.772,"endTime":1320.522,"body":"As you grow the API design"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1316.772,"endTime":1320.522,"body":"and API usage doesn't suffer."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1321.062,"endTime":1324.452,"body":"and it comes down to simple things"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1321.062,"endTime":1324.452,"body":"like adopting standards of development."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1324.972,"endTime":1328.572,"body":"if you're a REST developer, open API is"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1324.972,"endTime":1328.572,"body":"a great standard and kind of gives you"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1328.572,"endTime":1333.552,"body":"this escape patch into the rest of the"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1328.572,"endTime":1333.552,"body":"ecosystem, however big or small you are."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1333.822,"endTime":1335.802,"body":"So things like that you"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1333.822,"endTime":1335.802,"body":"can adopt from early on."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1336.548,"endTime":1339.324,"body":"Something that keeps"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1336.548,"endTime":1339.324,"body":"sticking out to me and, and what you've"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1339.324,"endTime":1344.154,"body":"described is just how important that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1339.324,"endTime":1344.154,"body":"ownership must be for the API within"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1344.154,"endTime":1348.004,"body":"a company or the API strategy, and how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1344.154,"endTime":1348.004,"body":"important it is that if it's something"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1348.004,"endTime":1351.254,"body":"that, is going to be saving your"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1348.004,"endTime":1351.254,"body":"developers' time or you're gonna be"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1351.254,"endTime":1354.374,"body":"serving as a product, how you have to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1351.254,"endTime":1354.374,"body":"structure around it and how you have"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1354.374,"endTime":1356.654,"body":"to strive for a level of excellence."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1357.104,"endTime":1361.394,"body":"Because when I think of internal APIs"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1357.104,"endTime":1361.394,"body":"in my experiences, I often think of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1361.394,"endTime":1365.384,"body":"like, you know, internal developer"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1361.394,"endTime":1365.384,"body":"portal or, or something where a bunch of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1365.384,"endTime":1369.074,"body":"teams would have self-serve versions of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1365.384,"endTime":1369.074,"body":"something they're building for each other."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1369.326,"endTime":1373.196,"body":"it always ends up in this weird no man's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1369.326,"endTime":1373.196,"body":"land where it's kind of like part of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1373.196,"endTime":1376.526,"body":"the infrastructure or infrastructure"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1373.196,"endTime":1376.526,"body":"team as part of the product team."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1376.526,"endTime":1377.456,"body":"In some regards."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1377.756,"endTime":1379.496,"body":"Some of the engineering team owns it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1379.766,"endTime":1382.016,"body":"So exactly what you've"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1379.766,"endTime":1382.016,"body":"described kind of happens."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1382.016,"endTime":1383.126,"body":"You get like this, uh."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1383.436,"endTime":1386.236,"body":"Sprawl, API sprawl of a bunch"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1383.436,"endTime":1386.236,"body":"of different approaches of a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1386.236,"endTime":1387.796,"body":"bunch of different solutions."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1388.076,"endTime":1391.586,"body":"one really great takeaway so far"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1388.076,"endTime":1391.586,"body":"is about unifying the ownership"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1391.616,"endTime":1393.806,"body":"of the API into one place."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1393.996,"endTime":1395.766,"body":"that way it can be leveraged effectively."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1396.066,"endTime":1400.866,"body":"And even if your company is not like, an"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1396.066,"endTime":1400.866,"body":"API first, you're serving an API as its"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1400.866,"endTime":1403.926,"body":"first bread and butter, you have to be"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1400.866,"endTime":1403.926,"body":"able to organize yourself around solving"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1403.926,"endTime":1405.866,"body":"those problems, for when they do come up."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1406.196,"endTime":1408.236,"body":"And I'm wondering what are the."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1408.291,"endTime":1412.531,"body":"successful, habits or practices that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1408.291,"endTime":1412.531,"body":"you see engineering teams that do"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1412.531,"endTime":1415.321,"body":"manage to achieve that excellence"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1412.531,"endTime":1415.321,"body":"and strive for that excellence?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1415.321,"endTime":1418.621,"body":"Is there like a common theme that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1415.321,"endTime":1418.621,"body":"you see between them besides just"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1418.711,"endTime":1420.121,"body":"caring a lot about their APIs?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1421.704,"endTime":1423.414,"body":"Caring about your APIs?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1423.414,"endTime":1426.714,"body":"The way that it manifests is"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1423.414,"endTime":1426.714,"body":"understanding customer usage."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1426.904,"endTime":1430.444,"body":"if you were a designer and you were"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1426.904,"endTime":1430.444,"body":"designing a ui, you probably look"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1430.444,"endTime":1434.574,"body":"at things like session recordings"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1430.444,"endTime":1434.574,"body":"and there's suite of tools on like"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1434.574,"endTime":1438.174,"body":"tracking how customers are moving on"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1434.574,"endTime":1438.174,"body":"your screen, doing user interviews."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1438.534,"endTime":1439.914,"body":"I think API is no different."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1440.134,"endTime":1443.864,"body":"the way it manifests slightly, the"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1440.134,"endTime":1443.864,"body":"metrics you look for different,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1443.864,"endTime":1445.124,"body":"you, you probably wanna track."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1445.514,"endTime":1448.034,"body":"Which parts of the a p are"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1445.514,"endTime":1448.034,"body":"getting used the most versus"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1448.034,"endTime":1449.774,"body":"the least, like error rates."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1450.114,"endTime":1453.744,"body":"there's a great metric I like to call"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1450.114,"endTime":1453.744,"body":"time to 200, which is the time to"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1453.744,"endTime":1455.604,"body":"your first successful call as a user."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1456.107,"endTime":1458.267,"body":"you probably want to track"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1456.107,"endTime":1458.267,"body":"that over time as well."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1458.267,"endTime":1459.977,"body":"Like always should be trending down."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1460.464,"endTime":1463.944,"body":"really caring about it comes down"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1460.464,"endTime":1463.944,"body":"to the design, but also comes down"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1463.944,"endTime":1465.684,"body":"to like monitoring in real time and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1466.33,"endTime":1466.99,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1467.064,"endTime":1467.994,"body":"based, based on that."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1467.994,"endTime":1468.294,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1468.79,"endTime":1471.76,"body":"There's a lot of importance"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1468.79,"endTime":1471.76,"body":"in measuring to understanding the,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1471.76,"endTime":1475.03,"body":"the vernacular, the language of the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1471.76,"endTime":1475.03,"body":"goals that you're striving for times."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1475.03,"endTime":1479.29,"body":"Time to first 200 is a great"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1475.03,"endTime":1479.29,"body":"example because you can look at"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1479.29,"endTime":1480.61,"body":"someone's journey along the way."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1480.61,"endTime":1481.72,"body":"It takes them longer."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1481.9,"endTime":1486.19,"body":"Over time, you, your users, get to their"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1481.9,"endTime":1486.19,"body":"first successful call faster and faster."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1486.22,"endTime":1488.74,"body":"You can look at the, the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1486.22,"endTime":1488.74,"body":"factors that play into that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1489.15,"endTime":1492.51,"body":"Then you can iterate over time because"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1489.15,"endTime":1492.51,"body":"API is, you know, they're just like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1492.51,"endTime":1494.16,"body":"any other type of software development."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1494.46,"endTime":1497.78,"body":"You can measure it, you can put,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1494.46,"endTime":1497.78,"body":"actions in place to improve it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1497.97,"endTime":1499.47,"body":"and then you can track it over time."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1499.78,"endTime":1502.27,"body":"APIs, you know, the ones that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1499.78,"endTime":1502.27,"body":"we've discussed so far, that's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1502.27,"endTime":1505.93,"body":"a very traditional format"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1502.27,"endTime":1505.93,"body":"of how APIs have been built."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1506.315,"endTime":1507.275,"body":"And consumed."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1507.335,"endTime":1509.915,"body":"But you know, there's definitely a little"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1507.335,"endTime":1509.915,"body":"bit of an elephant in the room around"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1509.945,"endTime":1515.315,"body":"APIs right now with LLMs and especially"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1509.945,"endTime":1515.315,"body":"Ag Agentic AI coming onto the scene."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1515.565,"endTime":1518.655,"body":"because we're living in a world"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1515.565,"endTime":1518.655,"body":"where these tools, what makes"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1518.655,"endTime":1522.555,"body":"these, uh, LLMs so powerful to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1518.655,"endTime":1522.555,"body":"work with is their ability to do."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1522.565,"endTime":1526.405,"body":"Tool usage and to call out"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1522.565,"endTime":1526.405,"body":"to things like these APIs."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1526.615,"endTime":1530.315,"body":"So suddenly, now you have like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1526.615,"endTime":1530.315,"body":"a split user base, you know?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1530.315,"endTime":1530.585,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1530.645,"endTime":1535.355,"body":"Time the 200 that you've been measuring"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1530.645,"endTime":1535.355,"body":"might have always represented a human,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1535.535,"endTime":1539.585,"body":"but now that there's a, there's maybe"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1535.535,"endTime":1539.585,"body":"even a machine in the mix that is using"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1539.585,"endTime":1544.265,"body":"your API like how a developer once"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1539.585,"endTime":1544.265,"body":"would, uh, so that kind of rewrite."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1544.51,"endTime":1547.68,"body":"I think the playbook for everything"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1544.51,"endTime":1547.68,"body":"about like, you know, beautiful"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1547.68,"endTime":1552.24,"body":"documentation, interactive"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1547.68,"endTime":1552.24,"body":"sandboxes, the developer experience."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1552.58,"endTime":1556.7,"body":"what has been your perspective, as"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1552.58,"endTime":1556.7,"body":"like an API expert, someone building"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1556.7,"endTime":1560.76,"body":"an API company, that you've been"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1556.7,"endTime":1560.76,"body":"seeing as LLMs come on the scene"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1560.76,"endTime":1562.59,"body":"of these as these API callers."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1563.165,"endTime":1566.465,"body":"What's really interesting,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1563.165,"endTime":1566.465,"body":"and I think you alluded to is like as,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1566.615,"endTime":1571.295,"body":"as these new interfaces come online,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1566.615,"endTime":1571.295,"body":"there's an even more of a demand to"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1571.295,"endTime":1573.635,"body":"actually do the traditional things well."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1573.665,"endTime":1573.905,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1574.145,"endTime":1580.325,"body":"Even more because one way to like if look"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1574.145,"endTime":1580.325,"body":"at it from outside in is there's just more"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1580.325,"endTime":1584.765,"body":"API consumers now and there's more API"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1580.325,"endTime":1584.765,"body":"calls and there's gonna be more usage."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1584.765,"endTime":1587.005,"body":"And so you want to prioritize."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1587.005,"endTime":1590.54,"body":"the things People have always said you"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1587.005,"endTime":1590.54,"body":"should prioritize their own design."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1590.54,"endTime":1593.81,"body":"Like have an API spec, make sure it's"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1590.54,"endTime":1593.81,"body":"maintained, make sure it's accurate."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1594.23,"endTime":1598.13,"body":"Those things only further become"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1594.23,"endTime":1598.13,"body":"more important when the integrators"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1598.13,"endTime":1601.55,"body":"are not just humans, but also"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1598.13,"endTime":1601.55,"body":"agentic workflows probably doing"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1601.61,"endTime":1606.34,"body":"10 times as many API calls as, the"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1601.61,"endTime":1606.34,"body":"standard static integration would do."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1606.34,"endTime":1606.79,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1607.526,"endTime":1607.826,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1607.826,"endTime":1608.966,"body":"10 times as many."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1609.446,"endTime":1611.156,"body":"You think that would be the scale you see?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1612.655,"endTime":1613.015,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1613.075,"endTime":1613.945,"body":"But you know, I"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1614.006,"endTime":1614.486,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1614.605,"endTime":1616.41,"body":"it is order"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1614.605,"endTime":1616.41,"body":"of magnitude change."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1617.831,"endTime":1618.341,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1618.621,"endTime":1621.801,"body":"I like the idea of, of just zooming out"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1618.621,"endTime":1621.801,"body":"and just being like, there's more demand."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1621.981,"endTime":1626.301,"body":"You have more users, but you have to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1621.981,"endTime":1626.301,"body":"stick with the traditional core basics"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1626.301,"endTime":1628.311,"body":"of what makes your API successful."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1628.311,"endTime":1630.231,"body":"All of those original things stay true."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1630.511,"endTime":1634.126,"body":"I think that's been a universal takeaway"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1630.511,"endTime":1634.126,"body":"in software engineering that a lot"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1634.126,"endTime":1636.571,"body":"of, leaders have been learning along"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1634.126,"endTime":1636.571,"body":"the way is that all of those things"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1636.571,"endTime":1638.521,"body":"that did matter, they still matter."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1638.641,"endTime":1641.101,"body":"And in fact, in some cases"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1638.641,"endTime":1641.101,"body":"they matter even more."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1641.321,"endTime":1643.631,"body":"because when you scale those fundamentals."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1643.646,"endTime":1645.896,"body":"They become even more impactful."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1646.286,"endTime":1649.343,"body":"so, you, you throw the number"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1646.286,"endTime":1649.343,"body":"just like 10 x obviously that's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1649.348,"endTime":1651.868,"body":"just an idea of their API usage."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1652.118,"endTime":1653.468,"body":"I guess also looking at how I."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1653.713,"endTime":1655.873,"body":"APIs are used and adopted."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1655.873,"endTime":1659.743,"body":"Like I think of my own perspective,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1655.873,"endTime":1659.743,"body":"as like a developer who's used a lot"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1659.743,"endTime":1664.493,"body":"of APIs, and has also created a lot"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1659.743,"endTime":1664.493,"body":"of resources for folks to use APIs."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1664.743,"endTime":1668.223,"body":"is that a lot of that boils down to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1664.743,"endTime":1668.223,"body":"having that really delightful developer"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1668.223,"endTime":1673.203,"body":"experience that self-starting as that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1668.223,"endTime":1673.203,"body":"really easy to use documentation."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1673.353,"endTime":1676.233,"body":"Maybe it has the spec that you can"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1673.353,"endTime":1676.233,"body":"play with right on the website, right."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1676.233,"endTime":1677.073,"body":"We're all familiar with."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1677.078,"endTime":1681.308,"body":"These ways of reducing friction"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1677.078,"endTime":1681.308,"body":"to that first successful API call."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1681.638,"endTime":1686.078,"body":"but when you are now maybe building"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1681.638,"endTime":1686.078,"body":"at scale for LLMs that are gonna call"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1686.078,"endTime":1689.738,"body":"your APIs 10 times, maybe they don't"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1686.078,"endTime":1689.738,"body":"care about that developer experience."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1689.738,"endTime":1693.068,"body":"Is that what you've seen or is it a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1689.738,"endTime":1693.068,"body":"different kind of developer experience?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1693.615,"endTime":1697.722,"body":"the industry's already"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1693.615,"endTime":1697.722,"body":"kind of gravitating to terms like agent"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1697.722,"endTime":1700.572,"body":"experience ax instead of dx and um,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1700.693,"endTime":1701.348,"body":"interesting."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1701.742,"endTime":1703.332,"body":"Yeah, it's funny,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1701.742,"endTime":1703.332,"body":"you know, there's lot people"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1703.332,"endTime":1706.302,"body":"love these buzzwords and kind of"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1703.332,"endTime":1706.302,"body":"marketing stuff that comes from it."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1706.662,"endTime":1709.812,"body":"What I would say is when I double"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1706.662,"endTime":1709.812,"body":"click on it, it does come down to"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1709.812,"endTime":1711.252,"body":"actually a lot of the same things."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1711.252,"endTime":1712.812,"body":"Not, not all, but."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1714.012,"endTime":1718.662,"body":"Down to how good of a grasp"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1714.012,"endTime":1718.662,"body":"you have a, I recommend."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1720.882,"endTime":1722.622,"body":"More isn't better actually."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1722.622,"endTime":1725.742,"body":"I think companies that have"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1722.622,"endTime":1725.742,"body":"APIs, the smaller and simpler and"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1725.742,"endTime":1727.932,"body":"clearer your API is the better."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1727.932,"endTime":1732.102,"body":"Like the truth is that people"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1727.932,"endTime":1732.102,"body":"probably don't want to do everything"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1732.132,"endTime":1733.632,"body":"with your product programmatically."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1734.179,"endTime":1736.729,"body":"know, most of the usage is probably"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1734.179,"endTime":1736.729,"body":"still gonna be through like the UI"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1737.149,"endTime":1738.979,"body":"or like whatever else you expose."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1739.419,"endTime":1743.139,"body":"the API often serves one or two use"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1739.419,"endTime":1743.139,"body":"cases really well, like something"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1743.139,"endTime":1744.339,"body":"that should be programmatic."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1744.876,"endTime":1746.796,"body":"so I always like start by."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1747.046,"endTime":1751.996,"body":"Asking customers they bring us an"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1747.046,"endTime":1751.996,"body":"API spec and we make these SDKs"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1751.996,"endTime":1754.816,"body":"and other tools from them, do you"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1751.996,"endTime":1754.816,"body":"wanna expose everything in the spec?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1754.816,"endTime":1755.056,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1755.056,"endTime":1759.736,"body":"Do you just wanna start with one or"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1755.056,"endTime":1759.736,"body":"two or three operations in the spec?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1759.736,"endTime":1763.336,"body":"Like if you're a payments company, do"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1759.736,"endTime":1763.336,"body":"you just wanna start with create payment,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1763.756,"endTime":1767.056,"body":"like create payment, get payment, delete"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1763.756,"endTime":1767.056,"body":"payment, update payment, like that?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1767.056,"endTime":1767.501,"body":"That's it."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1767.686,"endTime":1770.776,"body":"And then do you want to expand"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1767.686,"endTime":1770.776,"body":"outwards from there instead of like"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1770.776,"endTime":1773.446,"body":"dumping, you know, operations customer?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1774.932,"endTime":1775.592,"body":"and what happens?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1775.592,"endTime":1778.432,"body":"I think there is like, you, you do"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1775.592,"endTime":1778.432,"body":"that and suddenly you may have a"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1778.432,"endTime":1782.362,"body":"hundred operations, you're exposed"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1778.432,"endTime":1782.362,"body":"to get 90% of the usage and then,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1783.382,"endTime":1785.542,"body":"90 get like 10% of the usage."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1785.572,"endTime":1787.582,"body":"But you can't get rid"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1785.572,"endTime":1787.582,"body":"of those 90 now, right?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1787.582,"endTime":1791.482,"body":"'cause there's usage, but it's not"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1787.582,"endTime":1791.482,"body":"really a game changer for anyone."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1791.482,"endTime":1792.112,"body":"And so you've put"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1792.398,"endTime":1792.728,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1792.892,"endTime":1793.282,"body":"spot."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1793.959,"endTime":1797.619,"body":"I always tell 'em to start small and"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1793.959,"endTime":1797.619,"body":"with agents, I think it's even more true."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1797.649,"endTime":1799.449,"body":"Like context is really important."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1799.539,"endTime":1803.109,"body":"The context you can provide these"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1799.539,"endTime":1803.109,"body":"models and, and agentic workflows."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1803.109,"endTime":1807.669,"body":"So the simpler API is the better"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1803.109,"endTime":1807.669,"body":"documented described examples,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1807.669,"endTime":1809.499,"body":"like it's all compounding in value."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1809.979,"endTime":1813.159,"body":"I've done experiments now with"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1809.979,"endTime":1813.159,"body":"a lot of APIs where like just."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1813.789,"endTime":1820.779,"body":"To an a p spec into, Claude or some other,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1813.789,"endTime":1820.779,"body":"and using it is okay, uh, or into even my"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1820.779,"endTime":1826.479,"body":"IDE, is okay, but if I, instead of that"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1820.779,"endTime":1826.479,"body":"actually give it, a documentation site."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1826.659,"endTime":1831.589,"body":"Good examples, maybe an SDK with"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1826.659,"endTime":1831.589,"body":"like prebuilt, valid examples."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1831.679,"endTime":1832.279,"body":"It flies"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1832.339,"endTime":1834.679,"body":"all of a sudden, like it"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1832.339,"endTime":1834.679,"body":"goes from being a fun."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1835.169,"endTime":1838.184,"body":"little Tool fun little like demo"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1835.169,"endTime":1838.184,"body":"to actually, oh my God, this could"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1838.344,"endTime":1839.924,"body":"10x my day-to-day productivity."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1839.924,"endTime":1844.074,"body":"So, in this new world"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1839.924,"endTime":1844.074,"body":"context matters, a lot more."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1845.064,"endTime":1849.054,"body":"and so yeah, I, I would start,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1845.064,"endTime":1849.054,"body":"yeah, start with small, simple APIs."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1849.444,"endTime":1852.684,"body":"Don't try to like expose your whole"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1849.444,"endTime":1852.684,"body":"product to the world through an API,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1852.684,"endTime":1855.954,"body":"and then the stuff that is exposed,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1852.684,"endTime":1855.954,"body":"make sure it's thoroughly documented,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1855.954,"endTime":1857.694,"body":"the examples, all of that good stuff."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1858.405,"endTime":1861.025,"body":"There's also a, a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1858.405,"endTime":1861.025,"body":"new idea on the scene, that I know"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1861.025,"endTime":1865.285,"body":"you've been thinking a lot about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1861.025,"endTime":1865.285,"body":"with, MCP or model context protocol."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1865.555,"endTime":1869.605,"body":"And this is what allows an LLLM to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1865.555,"endTime":1869.605,"body":"work directly with tools and with APIs."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1870.055,"endTime":1873.355,"body":"I'd love to hear from your"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1870.055,"endTime":1873.355,"body":"perspective what you think about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1873.355,"endTime":1877.245,"body":"this, how you're seeing it impact,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1873.355,"endTime":1877.245,"body":"workflows, and kind of what a."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1877.31,"endTime":1880.1,"body":"You know, you, you think people in, in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1877.31,"endTime":1880.1,"body":"software leadership should be paying"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1880.1,"endTime":1881.66,"body":"attention to right now with MCP."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1882.614,"endTime":1886.544,"body":"I think the really"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1882.614,"endTime":1886.544,"body":"interesting thing with MCP, and you're"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1886.544,"endTime":1889.984,"body":"right, it's kind of become really hot"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1886.544,"endTime":1889.984,"body":"and just come to the forefront is since"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1889.984,"endTime":1893.644,"body":"we started working with these LLMs, like"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1889.984,"endTime":1893.644,"body":"the thing that everyone has been excited"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1893.644,"endTime":1897.724,"body":"about is how I. How easy it's to use"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1893.644,"endTime":1897.724,"body":"them and get this magical experience."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1898.024,"endTime":1899.824,"body":"But the big gap has been determinism."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1899.884,"endTime":1904.204,"body":"Like how do you ensure that the stuff"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1899.884,"endTime":1904.204,"body":"that it gives you is always accurate?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1904.264,"endTime":1906.304,"body":"It's relevant, it's consistent."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1906.754,"endTime":1910.294,"body":"And I think agentic tools like MCP"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1906.754,"endTime":1910.294,"body":"are really the gateway into this."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1910.294,"endTime":1914.824,"body":"I think it makes, it takes LLMS"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1910.294,"endTime":1914.824,"body":"and, agents more broadly from"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1914.824,"endTime":1919.514,"body":"being, discovery and search tools"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1914.824,"endTime":1919.514,"body":"to actually being operational tools."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1920.144,"endTime":1923.224,"body":"With MCP in particular, for those"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1920.144,"endTime":1923.224,"body":"of you who are not familiar with it,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1923.224,"endTime":1928.204,"body":"it basically is a protocol, a schema"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1923.224,"endTime":1928.204,"body":"that defines the resources of an API"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1928.384,"endTime":1932.044,"body":"an agent has access to, or an LLM"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1928.384,"endTime":1932.044,"body":"has access to and calling that API."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1932.411,"endTime":1935.531,"body":"it's like a level of indirection"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1932.411,"endTime":1935.531,"body":"above an API spec with a little"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1935.531,"endTime":1939.594,"body":"bit of extra, concepts that"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1935.531,"endTime":1939.594,"body":"allow for access control, and."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1945.571,"endTime":1950.846,"body":"With this what we're seeing is people are"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1945.571,"endTime":1950.846,"body":"creating MCP servers for different APIs"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1951.236,"endTime":1952.766,"body":"and then they add it to their clients."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1952.766,"endTime":1957.656,"body":"A client in this case is actually like"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1952.766,"endTime":1957.656,"body":"your cloud, desktop or cursor, IDE, and"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1957.656,"endTime":1961.436,"body":"suddenly they have access to that API the"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1957.656,"endTime":1961.436,"body":"cool thing is they're not even prompt."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1961.886,"endTime":1964.076,"body":"They're not even saying,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1961.886,"endTime":1964.076,"body":"please use this tool."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1964.644,"endTime":1966.624,"body":"you just continue with"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1964.644,"endTime":1966.624,"body":"what you wanted to do."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1966.674,"endTime":1969.614,"body":"there's enough context in these"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1966.674,"endTime":1969.614,"body":"tools that the LLMS agents actually"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1969.614,"endTime":1971.204,"body":"decide when to use the tools."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1972.044,"endTime":1974.924,"body":"actually, like automatic"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1972.044,"endTime":1974.924,"body":"decisioning that's happening."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1975.394,"endTime":1980.584,"body":"I was able to, create an MCP server"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1975.394,"endTime":1980.584,"body":"for our GitHub and Slack, and then"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1980.914,"endTime":1984.304,"body":"suddenly I'm able to ask questions"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1980.914,"endTime":1984.304,"body":"like how many GitHub issues have."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1984.549,"endTime":1985.689,"body":"Customers opened."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1985.689,"endTime":1986.529,"body":"What's the latest issue?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1986.529,"endTime":1987.549,"body":"What's the highest priority one?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1987.549,"endTime":1993.159,"body":"Like it cloud goes from being my,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1987.549,"endTime":1993.159,"body":"you know, of l that I use for search"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1993.159,"endTime":1996.639,"body":"and, and knowledge and all of that"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1993.159,"endTime":1996.639,"body":"to actually doing operational work."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1997.006,"endTime":2000.546,"body":"which is like a huge leap in"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":1997.006,"endTime":2000.546,"body":"how useful AI could be for us."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2001.016,"endTime":2004.886,"body":"So, yeah, I think, I think as a"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2001.016,"endTime":2004.886,"body":"leader I would actually start by,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2004.886,"endTime":2008.276,"body":"even before investing in the stuff"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2004.886,"endTime":2008.276,"body":"for your product, investing, for your"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2008.276,"endTime":2011.866,"body":"productivity of your team, I think"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2008.276,"endTime":2011.866,"body":"people should be playing with these"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2011.866,"endTime":2015.826,"body":"things and kind of the use case are"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2011.866,"endTime":2015.826,"body":"gonna evolve as, as people get creative."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2015.826,"endTime":2019.721,"body":"But I think identifying an internal"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2015.826,"endTime":2019.721,"body":"workflow, something that you probably"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2020.171,"endTime":2024.011,"body":"tool up yourself or use another SaaS"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2020.171,"endTime":2024.011,"body":"product to kind of orchestrate for you."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2024.341,"endTime":2027.521,"body":"I think you could actually just do"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2024.341,"endTime":2027.521,"body":"a lot of that through having the"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2027.521,"endTime":2029.921,"body":"right MCP servers for the right APIs."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2030.321,"endTime":2032.481,"body":"and that's something we're really"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2030.321,"endTime":2032.481,"body":"excited as well to kind of get"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2032.481,"endTime":2034.311,"body":"into in, see we can help enable."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2034.692,"endTime":2037.252,"body":"Yeah, and that's a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2034.692,"endTime":2037.252,"body":"really great call out too, that, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2037.252,"endTime":2041.452,"body":"know, paying attention to your internal"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2037.252,"endTime":2041.452,"body":"developers, your developer productivity,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2041.452,"endTime":2045.352,"body":"measuring and understanding how people are"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2041.452,"endTime":2045.352,"body":"working and, and consuming these tools."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2045.692,"endTime":2047.047,"body":"It kind of makes me think of that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2047.077,"endTime":2050.227,"body":"MCP is kind of like the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2047.077,"endTime":2050.227,"body":"developer experience for the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2050.327,"endTime":2052.547,"body":"LLLM, for these agents to use."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2052.797,"endTime":2055.947,"body":"is providing that last mile that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2052.797,"endTime":2055.947,"body":"is helpful for it to be able to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2055.947,"endTime":2058.837,"body":"make the context to decide when"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2055.947,"endTime":2058.837,"body":"to use it, when you're already"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2058.837,"endTime":2060.427,"body":"just natively using the tool."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2060.457,"endTime":2062.287,"body":"So does that mean that all APIs."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2063.132,"endTime":2066.972,"body":"That are going to be popularly consumed"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2063.132,"endTime":2066.972,"body":"by developers should be going the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2066.972,"endTime":2069.042,"body":"direction of being available that way?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2069.042,"endTime":2072.742,"body":"Or is that something that, like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2069.042,"endTime":2072.742,"body":"how, how do you decide as a company"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2072.742,"endTime":2076.058,"body":"or someone with an API that it's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2072.742,"endTime":2076.058,"body":"like, we should be implementing MCP?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2076.108,"endTime":2077.218,"body":"we should follow this track."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2078.047,"endTime":2081.417,"body":"Yeah, luckily"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2078.047,"endTime":2081.417,"body":"implementing MCP is reasonably"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2081.437,"endTime":2085.257,"body":"easy, and I think products like"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2081.437,"endTime":2085.257,"body":"ours, our own actually make it a lot"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2085.257,"endTime":2087.747,"body":"easier to get into this ecosystem."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2088.047,"endTime":2092.627,"body":"I think if your API or product"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2088.047,"endTime":2092.627,"body":"has, any value in terms of,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2092.927,"endTime":2094.637,"body":"day-to-day operational use, right?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2094.637,"endTime":2095.627,"body":"Things that you want."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2096.286,"endTime":2098.296,"body":"Like, let's even take a"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2096.286,"endTime":2098.296,"body":"simple example, right?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2098.326,"endTime":2102.076,"body":"Like, I think it's pretty"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2098.326,"endTime":2102.076,"body":"intuitive for most users today."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2102.506,"endTime":2105.866,"body":"they will probably have this idea"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2102.506,"endTime":2105.866,"body":"of like, I wish I could kind of dump"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2105.866,"endTime":2110.576,"body":"all my personal notes into this LLLM"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2105.866,"endTime":2110.576,"body":"and all my Apple Notes and to do"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2110.576,"endTime":2113.996,"body":"and tasks and have it become kind"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2110.576,"endTime":2113.996,"body":"of a store and memory of this stuff."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2114.356,"endTime":2118.046,"body":"Like I think that that is one of the more"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2114.356,"endTime":2118.046,"body":"early intuitive use cases people have."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2118.579,"endTime":2121.159,"body":"that's actually possible"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2118.579,"endTime":2121.159,"body":"now because of MCP."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2121.589,"endTime":2125.699,"body":"a lot of task note taking products"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2121.589,"endTime":2125.699,"body":"have APIs and so you can actually"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2125.699,"endTime":2128.939,"body":"create a tool that allows your"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2125.699,"endTime":2128.939,"body":"LLM to interface with that."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2129.179,"endTime":2132.279,"body":"And so now the idea of task note taking."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2132.279,"endTime":2135.409,"body":"Memory is no longer like"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2132.279,"endTime":2135.409,"body":"an operational task."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2135.409,"endTime":2138.649,"body":"You just have to, know, talk in"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2135.409,"endTime":2138.649,"body":"natural language to the LLM and"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2138.649,"endTime":2141.529,"body":"it will automatically update all"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2138.649,"endTime":2141.529,"body":"of these tasks and notes for you."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2142.129,"endTime":2145.729,"body":"I think there's like anything in"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2142.129,"endTime":2145.729,"body":"your API that's stateful, it's a"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2145.729,"endTime":2148.129,"body":"really exciting thing to explore."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2148.519,"endTime":2151.959,"body":"and also I would say, lighthouse"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2148.519,"endTime":2151.959,"body":"companies should just try this out, right?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2151.959,"endTime":2157.779,"body":"See, it's much like an SDK or putting"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2151.959,"endTime":2157.779,"body":"an a p out there in the first place."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2157.779,"endTime":2159.669,"body":"You have a hunch of what"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2157.779,"endTime":2159.669,"body":"it's gonna be used for."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2159.669,"endTime":2165.189,"body":"But sure the best API ecosystems didn't"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2159.669,"endTime":2165.189,"body":"start knowing that the API was gonna"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2165.189,"endTime":2166.839,"body":"get used in all these different ways."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2167.284,"endTime":2170.374,"body":"I would put it out then kind"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2167.284,"endTime":2170.374,"body":"of trust users to see what are"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2170.374,"endTime":2171.634,"body":"the interesting workflows that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2172.855,"endTime":2174.505,"body":"we started"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2172.855,"endTime":2174.505,"body":"by talking about API first."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2174.505,"endTime":2177.145,"body":"Is there gonna be an MCP"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2174.505,"endTime":2177.145,"body":"first company one day?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2177.485,"endTime":2181.855,"body":"how does that modify, the future you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2177.485,"endTime":2181.855,"body":"think, from the teams that you're seeing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2181.905,"endTime":2183.435,"body":"that are combining these technologies?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2185.219,"endTime":2188.729,"body":"most of the disruption, I"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2185.219,"endTime":2188.729,"body":"think is actually on the consumer side,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2189.27,"endTime":2189.66,"body":"Hmm."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2190.049,"endTime":2191.909,"body":"of the problem"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2190.049,"endTime":2191.909,"body":"and on the producer side."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2192.311,"endTime":2195.161,"body":"Producers have to keep building"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2192.311,"endTime":2195.161,"body":"APIs, making them better,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2195.161,"endTime":2196.361,"body":"making them accessible."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2196.841,"endTime":2200.801,"body":"I think consumers suddenly have at"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2196.841,"endTime":2200.801,"body":"their fingertips a very powerful"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2200.801,"endTime":2204.051,"body":"set of tools for integration and"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2200.801,"endTime":2204.051,"body":"even before integration, I would say"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2204.051,"endTime":2207.981,"body":"for like discovery and testing and"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2204.051,"endTime":2207.981,"body":"understanding how to work with APIs."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2208.401,"endTime":2212.811,"body":"I think as it becomes more"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2208.401,"endTime":2212.811,"body":"deterministic over time, see actual live"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2212.811,"endTime":2214.781,"body":"integrations run off of these tools."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2214.961,"endTime":2216.071,"body":"so yeah, I think, um."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2217.646,"endTime":2218.846,"body":"APIs?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2218.846,"endTime":2219.626,"body":"I don't, I don't know."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2219.626,"endTime":2222.206,"body":"I think it really depends"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2219.626,"endTime":2222.206,"body":"on how usage evolves."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2222.836,"endTime":2226.256,"body":"but I think, yeah, there's more disruption"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2222.836,"endTime":2226.256,"body":"to be on the consumer side of l."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2227.939,"endTime":2231.029,"body":"what about like with"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2227.939,"endTime":2231.029,"body":"what y'all are building at speakeasy?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2231.189,"endTime":2233.199,"body":"is there something kind of like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2231.189,"endTime":2233.199,"body":"top of mind that you think that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2233.199,"endTime":2234.789,"body":"the future's really moving towards?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2235.51,"endTime":2238.85,"body":"what I will say"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2235.51,"endTime":2238.85,"body":"is that we are in day zero, like"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2238.91,"endTime":2241.64,"body":"innings minus one of this process."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2242.091,"endTime":2242.421,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2243.02,"endTime":2245.6,"body":"I think people"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2243.02,"endTime":2245.6,"body":"sometimes under appreciate how."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2246.21,"endTime":2249.15,"body":"Important APIs are to our,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2246.21,"endTime":2249.15,"body":"like daily life, right?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2249.15,"endTime":2253.255,"body":"And so, you know, if APIs start"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2249.15,"endTime":2253.255,"body":"functioning incorrectly, your"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2253.405,"endTime":2254.755,"body":"banking system doesn't work,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2254.951,"endTime":2255.071,"body":"I."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2255.385,"endTime":2256.345,"body":"systems don't work."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2256.345,"endTime":2261.145,"body":"Like everything we do is an API call,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2256.345,"endTime":2261.145,"body":"like your DoorDash order, whatever it is."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2261.265,"endTime":2266.855,"body":"and so I think the changes are gonna"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2261.265,"endTime":2266.855,"body":"start more to be honest on the like."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2267.266,"endTime":2269.906,"body":"what I would call,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2267.266,"endTime":2269.906,"body":"exploratory side, right?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2270.026,"endTime":2271.286,"body":"It's gonna be experimental."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2271.286,"endTime":2273.536,"body":"It's gonna start with like,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2271.286,"endTime":2273.536,"body":"people trying stuff out."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2274.466,"endTime":2277.916,"body":"The really big breakthroughs, I"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2274.466,"endTime":2277.916,"body":"think is gonna come when there are"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2278.036,"endTime":2280.496,"body":"actual operational changes, right?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2280.496,"endTime":2285.046,"body":"So when like real systems, real"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2280.496,"endTime":2285.046,"body":"teams actually start doing things"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2285.046,"endTime":2287.806,"body":"differently because of the evolution of."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2288.196,"endTime":2291.556,"body":"How a, so I think we're very, very early."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2291.686,"endTime":2293.491,"body":"and I'm to see it evolve."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2294.536,"endTime":2297.836,"body":"In terms of what we are doing, like"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2294.536,"endTime":2297.836,"body":"Speakeasy's mission has always been to"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2297.836,"endTime":2302.156,"body":"provide really the modern tool chain for"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2297.836,"endTime":2302.156,"body":"API development, all the way from kind"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2302.156,"endTime":2305.336,"body":"of design to distribution of the NAPI."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2305.736,"endTime":2308.436,"body":"and so we work a lot with"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2305.736,"endTime":2308.436,"body":"API producers, however."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2308.656,"endTime":2310.906,"body":"There's been such an"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2308.656,"endTime":2310.906,"body":"explosion in this world."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2310.906,"endTime":2314.236,"body":"We've kind of quickly added"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2310.906,"endTime":2314.236,"body":"agentic tooling support."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2314.236,"endTime":2318.436,"body":"We generate MCP servers off the, just"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2314.236,"endTime":2318.436,"body":"off of your API spec for you now, so"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2318.796,"endTime":2320.086,"body":"we're getting involved in that way."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2320.086,"endTime":2324.526,"body":"And then also probably take us towards"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2320.086,"endTime":2324.526,"body":"really more work around agentic tooling,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2324.526,"endTime":2328.816,"body":"hosting the tools, running them,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2324.526,"endTime":2328.816,"body":"providing evaluation, toolkits on top."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2328.816,"endTime":2331.821,"body":"So yeah, we, we wanna help"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2328.816,"endTime":2331.821,"body":"people have the best APIs, which."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2332.691,"endTime":2337.641,"body":"You know, as you lightly pointed out,"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2332.691,"endTime":2337.641,"body":"is also gonna include having the now, so"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2338.421,"endTime":2340.671,"body":"expansion of our mandate and our mission."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2341.122,"endTime":2341.362,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2341.362,"endTime":2343.732,"body":"And it's about bringing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2341.362,"endTime":2343.732,"body":"the tools to the end users."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2343.732,"endTime":2344.992,"body":"That's a really good"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2343.732,"endTime":2344.992,"body":"call out that you made."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2344.992,"endTime":2347.782,"body":"Is that like a lot of the work to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2344.992,"endTime":2347.782,"body":"be done, a lot of the change that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2347.782,"endTime":2351.892,"body":"will happen is gonna happen on that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2347.782,"endTime":2351.892,"body":"exploratory side, on the user adoption"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2351.892,"endTime":2355.272,"body":"side and the ways that they can"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2351.892,"endTime":2355.272,"body":"interact with these types of tools."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2355.876,"endTime":2357.601,"body":"I. Well, you know, Sagar this has been"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2355.876,"endTime":2357.601,"body":"a really fascinating to kind of get"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2357.601,"endTime":2360.931,"body":"in your head and learn a little bit"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2357.601,"endTime":2360.931,"body":"of how you think about APIs and with"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2360.981,"endTime":2362.721,"body":"the MCP coming on the scene as well."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2362.721,"endTime":2365.961,"body":"And it's been really interesting to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2362.721,"endTime":2365.961,"body":"get a glimpse at the challenges and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2365.991,"endTime":2368.851,"body":"opportunities, that face these kind"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2365.991,"endTime":2368.851,"body":"of companies that are building these"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2368.851,"endTime":2372.991,"body":"internally or serving them to customers,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2368.851,"endTime":2372.991,"body":"how they're prioritizing things like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2372.991,"endTime":2377.591,"body":"developer productivity and excellence"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2372.991,"endTime":2377.591,"body":"and how that impacts, their end result."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2377.591,"endTime":2379.376,"body":"And really, like you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2377.591,"endTime":2379.376,"body":"said in the beginning."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2379.661,"endTime":2383.951,"body":"it boils down to Conway's Law and that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2379.661,"endTime":2383.951,"body":"you need to structure how your company"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2383.951,"endTime":2387.981,"body":"is around what it's producing, that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2383.951,"endTime":2387.981,"body":"your company's structure reflects what"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2387.981,"endTime":2390.231,"body":"you ultimately put out into the market."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2390.511,"endTime":2393.361,"body":"so in order to get that product market"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2390.511,"endTime":2393.361,"body":"fit, in order to create that really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2393.361,"endTime":2396.691,"body":"delightful experience for your users,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2393.361,"endTime":2396.691,"body":"you gotta match where your users"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2396.691,"endTime":2398.371,"body":"are and what they're looking for."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2398.651,"endTime":2399.471,"body":"and Sagar."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2399.491,"endTime":2402.311,"body":"I'm also curious where can people"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2399.491,"endTime":2402.311,"body":"learn a little bit about speakeasy"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2402.311,"endTime":2403.361,"body":"and what y'all are building?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2403.361,"endTime":2406.031,"body":"If, you know, after this conversation,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2403.361,"endTime":2406.031,"body":"folks wanted to go learn more?"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2406.525,"endTime":2407.545,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2407.545,"endTime":2409.195,"body":"I love ending it on Conway's Law."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2409.375,"endTime":2412.075,"body":"It, determines so much of"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2409.375,"endTime":2412.075,"body":"what I think businesses do."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2412.258,"endTime":2415.862,"body":"to learn a little bit more about"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2412.258,"endTime":2415.862,"body":"speakeasy, you can find us@speakeasy.com."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2416.232,"endTime":2420.202,"body":"we also very active, on LinkedIn"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2416.232,"endTime":2420.202,"body":"accounts, so on x at speakeasy"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2420.202,"endTime":2426.862,"body":"Dev and on, uh, LinkedIn speak a."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2420.202,"endTime":2426.862,"body":"we're also very reachable team."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2426.862,"endTime":2430.282,"body":"We have, you know, slack"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2426.862,"endTime":2430.282,"body":"spaces linked on our website."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2430.282,"endTime":2431.872,"body":"Come and chat with us anytime."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2431.942,"endTime":2434.492,"body":"We have a kind of change log"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2431.942,"endTime":2434.492,"body":"that tracks our progress."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2434.582,"endTime":2437.702,"body":"Um, doing a lot of work, agentic"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2434.582,"endTime":2437.702,"body":"tools, and if you're looking to"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2437.702,"endTime":2442.442,"body":"adopt in your own business or just"},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2437.702,"endTime":2442.442,"body":"looking to try it out, let us know."},{"speaker":"Sagar Batchu","startTime":2442.442,"endTime":2442.712,"body":"We can."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2444.193,"endTime":2444.753,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2444.873,"endTime":2447.123,"body":"So we'll get all of that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2444.873,"endTime":2447.123,"body":"included in our show notes."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2447.123,"endTime":2449.493,"body":"So if you've been listening and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2447.123,"endTime":2449.493,"body":"this has caught your interest,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2449.493,"endTime":2450.873,"body":"definitely be sure to check that out."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2451.093,"endTime":2452.863,"body":"thank you so much for joining us this far."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2452.885,"endTime":2456.195,"body":"Please check us out on Substack,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2452.885,"endTime":2456.195,"body":"and also reach out to us."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2456.235,"endTime":2457.155,"body":"Sagar and myself."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2457.155,"endTime":2457.635,"body":"Were both on LinkedIn."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2458.25,"endTime":2459.66,"body":"We'd love to hear from you."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2459.82,"endTime":2462.04,"body":"so definitely please give"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2459.82,"endTime":2462.04,"body":"us a ping on socials."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2462.26,"endTime":2465.54,"body":"that's it for this week's Dev"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2462.26,"endTime":2465.54,"body":"Interrupted, and we'll see you next time."}]}