{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":6.115,"endTime":7.435,"body":"Welcome to Dev Interrupted."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":7.495,"endTime":9.015,"body":"I'm your host, Andrew Zigler."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":9.342,"endTime":10.977,"body":"And I'm"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":9.342,"endTime":10.977,"body":"your host, Ben Lloyd Pearson."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":11.365,"endTime":14.215,"body":"This week we have"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":11.365,"endTime":14.215,"body":"the scoop on another AI mandate"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":14.275,"endTime":18.085,"body":"making waves in the industry, and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":14.275,"endTime":18.085,"body":"a new competitor in the language"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":18.085,"endTime":22.345,"body":"learning space, along with some major"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":18.085,"endTime":22.345,"body":"restructuring and workforce changes at"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":22.345,"endTime":24.205,"body":"some pretty recognizable tech companies."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":24.655,"endTime":27.625,"body":"But Ben, I'd say our first story,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":24.655,"endTime":27.625,"body":"well, maybe it's more like a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":27.625,"endTime":29.605,"body":"social story, not a new story."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":29.755,"endTime":30.625,"body":"What's going on with you?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":31.086,"endTime":33.666,"body":"Yeah, I wonder if"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":31.086,"endTime":33.666,"body":"it's a representation of things to come."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":33.666,"endTime":38.716,"body":"So I, I had a post on LinkedIn about fake"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":33.666,"endTime":38.716,"body":"accounts on the platform, and it attracted"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":38.716,"endTime":40.696,"body":"an AI bot that I interacted with."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":40.696,"endTime":41.991,"body":"It was actually kind of cool."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":42.36,"endTime":42.98,"body":"Oh, weird."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":43.341,"endTime":43.631,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":44.626,"endTime":47.116,"body":"So, yeah, I mean, it just, it just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":44.626,"endTime":47.116,"body":"started when like someone pointed"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":47.116,"endTime":48.916,"body":"a mean comment directed at me."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":49.181,"endTime":51.821,"body":"And which, you know, I brushed those"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":49.181,"endTime":51.821,"body":"things off, but I looked at their profile"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":51.821,"endTime":53.351,"body":"and like immediately got suspicious."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":53.381,"endTime":56.401,"body":"'cause it had some telltale"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":53.381,"endTime":56.401,"body":"signs of being a fake account."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":56.681,"endTime":59.261,"body":"the biggest one being that they"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":56.681,"endTime":59.261,"body":"just use a stock photo, which I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":59.261,"endTime":62.381,"body":"mean like, it's 2025 if you're gonna"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":59.261,"endTime":62.381,"body":"fake an account, at least get an AI"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":62.381,"endTime":64.391,"body":"generated profile picture, you know?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":64.605,"endTime":64.825,"body":"Ooh."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":64.83,"endTime":65.12,"body":"Ooh."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":65.12,"endTime":66.05,"body":"That, that's bespoke."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":66.05,"endTime":69.47,"body":"So this account had a stock"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":66.05,"endTime":69.47,"body":"photo as its profile image, not"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":69.5,"endTime":70.79,"body":"something that's AI gen. Yes."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":70.79,"endTime":71.51,"body":"Vintage."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":71.51,"endTime":72.2,"body":"Vintage."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":72.29,"endTime":72.725,"body":"I love that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":72.856,"endTime":73.666,"body":"fake accounts."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":74.315,"endTime":74.605,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":74.746,"endTime":77.236,"body":"but, but you know, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":74.746,"endTime":77.236,"body":"made a post just like reflecting on this,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":77.236,"endTime":80.496,"body":"I was like, wow, this is kind of weird,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":77.236,"endTime":80.496,"body":"that somebody would, use this account."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":80.559,"endTime":82.449,"body":"looks like they put effort into"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":80.559,"endTime":82.449,"body":"making it 'cause it had like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":82.449,"endTime":84.239,"body":"300 connections and whatnot."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":84.239,"endTime":86.219,"body":"and it looked like it was a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":84.239,"endTime":86.219,"body":"human behind it and not ai."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":87.254,"endTime":92.654,"body":"But in the comment section on that post,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":87.254,"endTime":92.654,"body":"there was this AI sales rep that showed up"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":92.654,"endTime":94.994,"body":"to call out the behavior of fake accounts."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":95.384,"endTime":97.944,"body":"And I honestly found it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":95.384,"endTime":97.944,"body":"to be hilarious because it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":97.944,"endTime":100.462,"body":"self-identified as being AI powered."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":100.462,"endTime":105.082,"body":"like this is a GPT generated"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":100.462,"endTime":105.082,"body":"comment and was calling out the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":105.082,"endTime":106.822,"body":"practice of using fake accounts."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":106.822,"endTime":108.322,"body":"Like it was really kind of incredible."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":108.666,"endTime":110.746,"body":"very meta, and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":108.666,"endTime":110.746,"body":"this was happening on LinkedIn."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":111.407,"endTime":111.647,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":111.647,"endTime":114.287,"body":"And I'm like, I'm sitting there"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":111.647,"endTime":114.287,"body":"just like wondering like, are we"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":114.386,"endTime":114.506,"body":"I."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":115.217,"endTime":118.967,"body":"entering a future"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":115.217,"endTime":118.967,"body":"where AI is inserted into every facet"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":118.967,"endTime":120.947,"body":"of our lives, whether we like it or not."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":121.367,"endTime":124.637,"body":"Like so far, with this one bot,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":121.367,"endTime":124.637,"body":"I'm okay with it because it was"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":124.637,"endTime":127.967,"body":"like this positive experience, but"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":124.637,"endTime":127.967,"body":"you know, I still withhold my, the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":127.967,"endTime":129.647,"body":"right to change my mind on that one."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":130.476,"endTime":133.416,"body":"Yeah, I think this is a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":130.476,"endTime":133.416,"body":"good call to action for the real humans"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":133.416,"endTime":134.916,"body":"listening to us now on the podcast."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":135.006,"endTime":136.026,"body":"Go interact with Ben."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":136.026,"endTime":139.536,"body":"That way he doesn't get buried underneath"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":136.026,"endTime":139.536,"body":"the hoard of robots on LinkedIn, please,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":139.681,"endTime":143.646,"body":"we're, we're sharing cool stuff on there"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":139.681,"endTime":143.646,"body":"every week, and, we need other humans, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":143.646,"endTime":147.036,"body":"know, here hand in hand with us to help"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":143.646,"endTime":147.036,"body":"build real good content for the world."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":147.297,"endTime":149.427,"body":"They're gonna see"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":147.297,"endTime":149.427,"body":"that I'm someone that will comment back"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":149.427,"endTime":152.097,"body":"and engage with them, and then other"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":149.427,"endTime":152.097,"body":"ones are gonna show up, and that's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":152.097,"endTime":155.517,"body":"all my fee's gonna become if I don't"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":152.097,"endTime":155.517,"body":"get more humans involved with this."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":155.986,"endTime":159.076,"body":"Yeah, I think that's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":155.986,"endTime":159.076,"body":"definitely, sadly sometimes where things"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":159.076,"endTime":161.836,"body":"are going, but that's the value of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":159.076,"endTime":161.836,"body":"a good, authentic connection, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":161.836,"endTime":164.086,"body":"When you find someone you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":161.836,"endTime":164.086,"body":"really jive with online and just"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":164.086,"endTime":165.136,"body":"sharing cool stuff with them."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":165.136,"endTime":167.326,"body":"That's what I love about things"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":165.136,"endTime":167.326,"body":"like LinkedIn, just finding other"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":167.326,"endTime":168.436,"body":"people to nerd out about with."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":168.972,"endTime":169.302,"body":"yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":169.302,"endTime":169.872,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":169.872,"endTime":173.442,"body":"So, so that's my, my personal"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":169.872,"endTime":173.442,"body":"AI news for the week."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":173.442,"endTime":176.519,"body":"So let, let's talk about this,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":173.442,"endTime":176.519,"body":"AI mandate that you brought up."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":177.323,"endTime":177.653,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":177.653,"endTime":180.023,"body":"So I opened up with another"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":177.653,"endTime":180.023,"body":"AI mandate, making a bit of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":180.023,"endTime":181.343,"body":"a splash in the tech world."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":181.343,"endTime":183.273,"body":"Uh, this latest one is from Duolingo."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":183.273,"endTime":185.856,"body":"Um, other companies, you know,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":183.273,"endTime":185.856,"body":"we've been covering on the pod."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":185.916,"endTime":188.166,"body":"You know, we've been talking"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":185.916,"endTime":188.166,"body":"about Shopify's mandate."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":188.196,"endTime":190.926,"body":"Duolingo is very similar in regards to,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":191.246,"endTime":194.486,"body":"Changing how they structure the work"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":191.246,"endTime":194.486,"body":"that they assign to their employees,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":194.486,"endTime":196.286,"body":"particularly their contract employees."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":196.286,"endTime":199.766,"body":"And if it's a work or a job that can"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":196.286,"endTime":199.766,"body":"be done with ai, they're going to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":199.766,"endTime":204.056,"body":"pursue technology and routes to better"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":199.766,"endTime":204.056,"body":"get that kind of process online."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":204.056,"endTime":207.333,"body":"Uh, this represents, shifts that we're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":204.056,"endTime":207.333,"body":"seeing everywhere across the industry."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":207.483,"endTime":209.883,"body":"Some companies are being quiet"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":207.483,"endTime":209.883,"body":"about it, some companies are"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":209.883,"endTime":212.853,"body":"being fully open, having mandates"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":209.883,"endTime":212.853,"body":"about how they're restructuring."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":213.108,"endTime":214.128,"body":"The way to work."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":214.218,"endTime":216.408,"body":"So if you even checked out"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":214.218,"endTime":216.408,"body":"the latest one from Duolingo,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":216.408,"endTime":217.638,"body":"it's definitely worth a read."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":217.757,"endTime":221.687,"body":"Duolingo has massive impact on"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":217.757,"endTime":221.687,"body":"language learners across the world."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":221.687,"endTime":226.377,"body":"It's almost impossible for anyone to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":221.687,"endTime":226.377,"body":"not know what Duolingo is because it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":226.377,"endTime":227.637,"body":"teaches folks that communicate in."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":227.842,"endTime":229.852,"body":"You know, multiple languages."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":229.852,"endTime":232.192,"body":"it's also a really effective"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":229.852,"endTime":232.192,"body":"learning tool in general."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":232.192,"endTime":234.712,"body":"They have great practice,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":232.192,"endTime":234.712,"body":"great user experience."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":234.712,"endTime":238.766,"body":"And so here's another company, um,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":234.712,"endTime":238.766,"body":"that's large with a lot of consumers,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":238.766,"endTime":243.026,"body":"a lot of daily active users on their"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":238.766,"endTime":243.026,"body":"applications, making the call for AI"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":243.026,"endTime":247.533,"body":"powered, workflows within their company"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":243.026,"endTime":247.533,"body":"to get ahead, in the space that they."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":247.818,"endTime":250.218,"body":"Already have a lot of control on."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":250.305,"endTime":254.804,"body":"Ben, did you hear about the new, uh,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":250.305,"endTime":254.804,"body":"the new AI language learning app that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":254.809,"endTime":256.589,"body":"that hit the world from Google recently?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":257.02,"endTime":259.21,"body":"Yeah, well, I was"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":257.02,"endTime":259.21,"body":"gonna say, it kind of surprises me, like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":259.21,"endTime":262.27,"body":"it almost feels like Duolingo is a little"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":259.21,"endTime":262.27,"body":"late to the game on this one because"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":262.449,"endTime":262.529,"body":"Hmm."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":262.69,"endTime":265.48,"body":"about linguistic"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":262.69,"endTime":265.48,"body":"apps, like the apps that focus"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":265.48,"endTime":267.375,"body":"on like linguistic like services."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":267.61,"endTime":270.97,"body":"You know, like that's kind of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":267.61,"endTime":270.97,"body":"what GPTs are specialized at."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":271.33,"endTime":273.97,"body":"And yeah, this story about Google,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":271.33,"endTime":273.97,"body":"like what's going on there?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":273.97,"endTime":274.66,"body":"'cause maybe there's some"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":274.874,"endTime":274.904,"body":"I."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":275.17,"endTime":276.1,"body":"pressure here as well."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":276.124,"endTime":278.104,"body":"Yeah, there's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":276.124,"endTime":278.104,"body":"this new tool, from Google."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":278.104,"endTime":281.104,"body":"I don't even want to call it a product"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":278.104,"endTime":281.104,"body":"because it's really like an experimental"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":281.104,"endTime":282.629,"body":"lab feature you can go play with."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":282.629,"endTime":285.869,"body":"in one of Google's product labs, uh,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":282.629,"endTime":285.869,"body":"it's called little Language Lessons and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":285.869,"endTime":290.129,"body":"it uses generative AI to make practicing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":285.869,"endTime":290.129,"body":"languages really easy and personal."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":290.265,"endTime":293.695,"body":"it's a collection of like bite-sized"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":290.265,"endTime":293.695,"body":"learning experiences, that are built"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":293.695,"endTime":298.315,"body":"using Gemini models, powered, by Google"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":293.695,"endTime":298.315,"body":"and each experiment explores a different"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":298.315,"endTime":300.755,"body":"way, that AI can support real world."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":300.99,"endTime":301.649,"body":"Learning."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":301.649,"endTime":304.119,"body":"Um, I really like the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":301.649,"endTime":304.119,"body":"little language lessons."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":304.169,"endTime":305.489,"body":"I went and I played around with it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":305.639,"endTime":308.939,"body":"It's really effective and personalized,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":305.639,"endTime":308.939,"body":"but the best part about it is that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":308.939,"endTime":312.539,"body":"they deliver these experiments"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":308.939,"endTime":312.539,"body":"into your whole Google experience."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":312.539,"endTime":315.414,"body":"And so, it, it really goes to show"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":312.539,"endTime":315.414,"body":"that when you're on a platform."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":315.804,"endTime":320.874,"body":"As of wide reaching as Google, the idea"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":315.804,"endTime":320.874,"body":"of embedding everyday learning experiences"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":320.874,"endTime":324.416,"body":"into that is just, uh, there's so"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":320.874,"endTime":324.416,"body":"much potential for people to build new"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":324.416,"endTime":326.516,"body":"skills in ways that they haven't before."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":326.816,"endTime":331.506,"body":"It actually, reminded me of very"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":326.816,"endTime":331.506,"body":"recently, Dev Interrupted was invited."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":331.506,"endTime":335.343,"body":"As some of y'all noted Atlassian team,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":331.506,"endTime":335.343,"body":"uh, the closing keynote there, um, I"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":335.343,"endTime":340.593,"body":"listened to Sal Khan, the CEO, founder of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":335.343,"endTime":340.593,"body":"Khan Academy, iconic Learning Institute"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":340.593,"endTime":343.383,"body":"for People online, as well as Ben Gomez."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":343.383,"endTime":346.223,"body":"Ben's, Google's, SVP of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":343.383,"endTime":346.223,"body":"Learning and Development."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":346.223,"endTime":350.093,"body":"And they talked extensively about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":346.223,"endTime":350.093,"body":"how the future of learning is gonna"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":350.093,"endTime":354.203,"body":"be with AI powered assistance that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":350.093,"endTime":354.203,"body":"can bring lessons to where you are."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":354.859,"endTime":358.609,"body":"seeing this phrase"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":354.859,"endTime":358.609,"body":"like all over social media recently about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":358.609,"endTime":363.439,"body":"like how AI won't replace you, but people"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":358.609,"endTime":363.439,"body":"using AI will, and I feel like it's,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":363.589,"endTime":367.219,"body":"it's a little overused at this point, but"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":363.589,"endTime":367.219,"body":"the interesting part about this story is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":367.219,"endTime":371.809,"body":"how it actually kind of almost refutes"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":367.219,"endTime":371.809,"body":"that statement because here we have an"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":371.809,"endTime":373.509,"body":"entrenched, service provider, Duolingo."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":374.474,"endTime":378.974,"body":"In this space, and then a major company"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":374.474,"endTime":378.974,"body":"like Google, literally deploying an"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":379.004,"endTime":384.014,"body":"AI service that could theoretically"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":379.004,"endTime":384.014,"body":"wipe out this company altogether."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":384.074,"endTime":387.704,"body":"You know, so I, I kind of get the,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":384.074,"endTime":387.704,"body":"the pressure that they are probably"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":387.704,"endTime":392.474,"body":"feeling at Duolingo given this new"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":387.704,"endTime":392.474,"body":"competitive, offering from Google."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":392.883,"endTime":397.413,"body":"I've been expecting AI to disrupt"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":392.883,"endTime":397.413,"body":"education practices basically since I've"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":397.413,"endTime":399.093,"body":"got my hands on it for the first time."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":399.433,"endTime":401.833,"body":"And, you know, I've got a young kid"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":399.433,"endTime":401.833,"body":"that's starting to get into the public"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":401.833,"endTime":405.603,"body":"education system, and I have started to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":401.833,"endTime":405.603,"body":"think recently, how different it's gonna"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":405.603,"endTime":411.156,"body":"be for my kids because we are gonna have"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":405.603,"endTime":411.156,"body":"these opportunities for personalized"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":411.216,"endTime":413.976,"body":"AI or personalized education from ai."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":413.976,"endTime":417.576,"body":"And I think, like, this doesn't stop"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":413.976,"endTime":417.576,"body":"at, for school aged children either,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":417.626,"endTime":422.906,"body":"AI can be such a powerful tool to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":417.626,"endTime":422.906,"body":"learn quickly you don't fall into like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":422.906,"endTime":427.368,"body":"many of the pitfalls that, tend to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":422.906,"endTime":427.368,"body":"make some people lazy with its use."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":427.608,"endTime":430.908,"body":"but you know, with that said,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":427.608,"endTime":430.908,"body":"Google has had some very public"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":430.908,"endTime":433.458,"body":"flops in the AI space and."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":433.753,"endTime":437.203,"body":"not to mention how often or how"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":433.753,"endTime":437.203,"body":"frequently they launch a product only"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":437.203,"endTime":439.273,"body":"to kill it off like a year later."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":439.543,"endTime":442.303,"body":"So, you know, I'm gonna withhold judgment"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":439.543,"endTime":442.303,"body":"on what's act, who's actually gonna"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":442.303,"endTime":446.943,"body":"prevail here until we have a better,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":442.303,"endTime":446.943,"body":"sense of the effectiveness of this survey."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":447.003,"endTime":449.883,"body":"But, you know, Andrew, I'm almost"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":447.003,"endTime":449.883,"body":"wondering like, is there this emerging"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":449.883,"endTime":456.963,"body":"trend of B2C companies being the ones that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":449.883,"endTime":456.963,"body":"are the most at threat from AI disruption?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":457.273,"endTime":459.371,"body":"simply becausemaybe maybe"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":457.273,"endTime":459.371,"body":"there's less of a moat."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":459.821,"endTime":463.001,"body":"That can be, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":459.821,"endTime":463.001,"body":"eaten away by AI services."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":463.451,"endTime":464.561,"body":"I think it's a good theory."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":464.611,"endTime":468.481,"body":"ultimately when you're B2C, uh,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":464.611,"endTime":468.481,"body":"you're dealing with a lot of potential"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":468.481,"endTime":470.371,"body":"consumers or buyers of your product."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":470.371,"endTime":474.571,"body":"So the risks you can take, um, are a lot"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":470.371,"endTime":474.571,"body":"different compared to like a B2B space"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":474.571,"endTime":479.071,"body":"where you are typically more incentivized"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":474.571,"endTime":479.071,"body":"to build a highly specialized and durable"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":479.071,"endTime":483.764,"body":"tool that another business could run"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":479.071,"endTime":483.764,"body":"and scale with Oftentimes an individual"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":483.764,"endTime":487.844,"body":"consumer doesn't care a lot about scale"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":483.764,"endTime":487.844,"body":"or even longevity as long as it solves"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":487.844,"endTime":491.889,"body":"the problem or Amuses them for the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":487.844,"endTime":491.889,"body":"immediate thing they're trying to do."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":492.159,"endTime":495.789,"body":"It's a whole different market space,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":492.159,"endTime":495.789,"body":"so they're allowed to iterate a lot"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":495.789,"endTime":499.509,"body":"faster, and if anything, I think we're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":495.789,"endTime":499.509,"body":"just seeing trends that will eventually"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":499.509,"endTime":502.089,"body":"make their way more into B2B practices."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":502.59,"endTime":505.32,"body":"let's take a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":502.59,"endTime":505.32,"body":"step now into the, the big corporate"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":505.32,"endTime":508.535,"body":"tech world where we've got some"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":505.32,"endTime":508.535,"body":"stories about major restructuring"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":508.673,"endTime":509.033,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":509.033,"endTime":512.273,"body":"So we're talking about a,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":509.033,"endTime":512.273,"body":"a recent shakeup at Intel."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":512.273,"endTime":515.003,"body":"if you've been following the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":512.273,"endTime":515.003,"body":"news, they've had a new CEO."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":515.003,"endTime":517.343,"body":"They've had a lot of internal"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":515.003,"endTime":517.343,"body":"restructurings and changes"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":517.343,"endTime":521.503,"body":"recently, Intel, notably being"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":517.343,"endTime":521.503,"body":"one of America's, chip foundries."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":521.503,"endTime":524.008,"body":"It has plays a very pivotal role and."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":524.233,"endTime":528.623,"body":"America being able to, produce chips"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":524.233,"endTime":528.623,"body":"at scale as well as have its own kind"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":528.623,"endTime":530.843,"body":"of chip manufacturing, processes."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":530.969,"endTime":533.849,"body":"there's a lot of things at stake"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":530.969,"endTime":533.849,"body":"both for the business and just"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":533.849,"endTime":535.439,"body":"for the country in general."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":535.439,"endTime":538.479,"body":"A lot of people feel about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":535.439,"endTime":538.479,"body":"the intel, news, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":538.479,"endTime":541.394,"body":"Which is why it gets so heavily"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":538.479,"endTime":541.394,"body":"reported on, and people are so deeply"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":541.394,"endTime":544.154,"body":"invested in the moves that Intel makes."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":544.354,"endTime":548.161,"body":"a lot of this actually is structured most"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":544.354,"endTime":548.161,"body":"recently around, like sweeping measures"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":548.161,"endTime":551.671,"body":"that have been announced in Intel,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":548.161,"endTime":551.671,"body":"including some number of layoffs, the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":551.671,"endTime":555.841,"body":"company restructuring, getting rid of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":551.671,"endTime":555.841,"body":"some of its non-core products, and also"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":555.841,"endTime":558.331,"body":"expanding its return to office mandate."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":558.351,"endTime":561.321,"body":"this is something we've been seeing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":558.351,"endTime":561.321,"body":"pop up more and more in the tech"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":561.321,"endTime":565.976,"body":"industry, um, even similarly, just the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":561.321,"endTime":565.976,"body":"moment ago, we talked about Google."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":566.136,"endTime":570.276,"body":"Google is also telling many of their"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":566.136,"endTime":570.276,"body":"remote workers to come back to office"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":570.306,"endTime":574.476,"body":"three days a week, or they'll be losing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":570.306,"endTime":574.476,"body":"their job, you know, by the middle of of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":574.476,"endTime":577.806,"body":"summer they're putting their foot down"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":574.476,"endTime":577.806,"body":"and ultimately saying that in-person"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":577.806,"endTime":582.936,"body":"collaboration is an important part of how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":577.806,"endTime":582.936,"body":"they innovate and solve complex problems."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":583.296,"endTime":585.906,"body":"That's not the first time, of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":583.296,"endTime":585.906,"body":"course, that we've heard, industry"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":585.906,"endTime":590.086,"body":"leaders, CEOs, and executives talk"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":585.906,"endTime":590.086,"body":"about the return to office mandate."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":590.774,"endTime":593.294,"body":"this is a battle"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":590.774,"endTime":593.294,"body":"that's continuing to wage between"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":593.294,"endTime":595.634,"body":"tech workers and, and their employers."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":596.024,"endTime":599.264,"body":"But you know, the, the thing that really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":596.024,"endTime":599.264,"body":"stuck out to me about this intel story"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":599.264,"endTime":603.944,"body":"was their focus on, reducing layers of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":599.264,"endTime":603.944,"body":"middle management within the organization."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":603.974,"endTime":606.959,"body":"Like the CEO mentioned, there's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":603.974,"endTime":606.959,"body":"sometimes as many as eight or"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":606.959,"endTime":611.789,"body":"more layers of hierarchy within an"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":606.959,"endTime":611.789,"body":"organization inside of Intel, which"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":611.789,"endTime":613.679,"body":"is pretty extreme, I feel like."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":613.895,"endTime":617.015,"body":"as someone who has previously worked"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":613.895,"endTime":617.015,"body":"the big corporate tech life, I've"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":617.015,"endTime":621.075,"body":"actually seen companies, that are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":617.015,"endTime":621.075,"body":"like this and how it actually can put"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":621.075,"endTime":622.635,"body":"them in a situation where they're."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":622.825,"endTime":624.325,"body":"Ill-equipped to move quickly."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":624.695,"endTime":628.715,"body":"there are lots of managers, not a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":624.695,"endTime":628.715,"body":"whole lot of doers by comparison."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":629.515,"endTime":633.205,"body":"my advice, and I think this advice is a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":629.515,"endTime":633.205,"body":"little more important in this day and age"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":633.235,"endTime":636.305,"body":"is that you can never stop being a doer."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":636.435,"endTime":639.975,"body":"even if your job is strictly to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":636.435,"endTime":639.975,"body":"manage people, you should always"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":639.975,"endTime":642.975,"body":"have something in your professional"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":639.975,"endTime":642.975,"body":"life where you are the individual"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":642.975,"endTime":644.235,"body":"contributor that's producing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":644.285,"endTime":647.525,"body":"Like I think in this AI future"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":644.285,"endTime":647.525,"body":"that we're all entering into."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":648.34,"endTime":653.38,"body":"anyone who is purely a manager is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":648.34,"endTime":653.38,"body":"probably in a tenuous position."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":653.38,"endTime":656.62,"body":"Like I, I don't want to say that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":653.38,"endTime":656.62,"body":"AI is gonna take their job because,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":656.68,"endTime":658.8,"body":"you know, nobody really knows."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":658.8,"endTime":664.054,"body":"But, I think the future is gonna"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":658.8,"endTime":664.054,"body":"value people who can create versus"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":664.054,"endTime":666.064,"body":"those who can, you know, manage."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":666.667,"endTime":670.027,"body":"also just one final point, like,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":666.667,"endTime":670.027,"body":"man, don't do return to office."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":670.057,"endTime":673.537,"body":"Like, it, it just, I don't,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":670.057,"endTime":673.537,"body":"I'm not convinced at works."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":673.537,"endTime":676.987,"body":"You're, you're really putting a lot"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":673.537,"endTime":676.987,"body":"of pressure on your employees and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":676.987,"endTime":680.797,"body":"particularly considering that like you,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":676.987,"endTime":680.797,"body":"you know, just put, just think of a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":680.797,"endTime":684.517,"body":"person who might have to, who got hired"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":680.797,"endTime":684.517,"body":"remote and might have to relocate."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":684.757,"endTime":688.687,"body":"To an office, like they don't really have"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":684.757,"endTime":688.687,"body":"a whole lot of guarantees that their job"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":688.687,"endTime":690.697,"body":"is gonna be there in six to 12 months."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":690.697,"endTime":694.502,"body":"these companies have a long history"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":690.697,"endTime":694.502,"body":"of laying people off on regular basis."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":694.532,"endTime":697.922,"body":"There's, there's no guarantee that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":694.532,"endTime":697.922,"body":"moving to an office is gonna guarantee"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":698.012,"endTime":699.482,"body":"your employment for the long term."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":700.116,"endTime":702.576,"body":"Yeah, it goes"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":700.116,"endTime":702.576,"body":"beyond being a bit of a bummer."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":702.606,"endTime":706.326,"body":"There's actually a lot of research"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":702.606,"endTime":706.326,"body":"We've also covered on Dev Interrupted"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":706.596,"endTime":710.742,"body":"about these returns to office"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":706.596,"endTime":710.742,"body":"mandates affect company morale."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":710.742,"endTime":715.482,"body":"employee productivity, employee health"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":710.742,"endTime":715.482,"body":"and mental wellbeing, but also more"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":715.482,"endTime":720.042,"body":"importantly, it goes counter often to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":715.482,"endTime":720.042,"body":"the thesis that executives charge in with"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":720.042,"endTime":725.892,"body":"about, it's an important way of innovating"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":720.042,"endTime":725.892,"body":"and solve complex problems when in truth,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":725.892,"endTime":732.372,"body":"the best way to solve complex problems"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":725.892,"endTime":732.372,"body":"and innovate is to give people the space"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":732.372,"endTime":733.962,"body":"that they need to do their best work."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":734.612,"endTime":737.796,"body":"That often doesn't align perfectly"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":734.612,"endTime":737.796,"body":"with, being in the office."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":737.796,"endTime":741.35,"body":"So, if you are, in a company that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":737.796,"endTime":741.35,"body":"has returned to office mandate, or"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":741.35,"endTime":745.26,"body":"if you're balancing hybrid schedule,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":741.35,"endTime":745.26,"body":"or otherwise having to change how you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":745.26,"endTime":747.015,"body":"work, reach out to us on LinkedIn."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":747.1,"endTime":749.84,"body":"We're always talking with folks"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":747.1,"endTime":749.84,"body":"about how their tech world is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":749.84,"endTime":751.01,"body":"kind of moving around them."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":751.28,"endTime":754.34,"body":"We'd love to hear about how it's impacting"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":751.28,"endTime":754.34,"body":"you and hear your side of the story too."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":754.861,"endTime":758.551,"body":"and my final point on"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":754.861,"endTime":758.551,"body":"this is, we've covered today how so many"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":758.551,"endTime":761.341,"body":"companies are being disrupted by this ai."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":762.011,"endTime":766.211,"body":"if you're losing your best employees"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":762.011,"endTime":766.211,"body":"because you're forcing them to relocate to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":766.241,"endTime":769.831,"body":"keep their job, you're just increasing the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":766.241,"endTime":769.831,"body":"odds that they're gonna go someplace else"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":769.831,"endTime":774.371,"body":"and disrupt you, now is the time to have"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":769.831,"endTime":774.371,"body":"really talented people working for you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":774.371,"endTime":778.831,"body":"so that as AI disrupts you or as"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":774.371,"endTime":778.831,"body":"it disrupts your workflows, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":778.831,"endTime":782.791,"body":"have the right people in the right"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":778.831,"endTime":782.791,"body":"places to be impactful with it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":782.841,"endTime":784.461,"body":"So, Andrew, tell us about our guest today."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":785.24,"endTime":788.57,"body":"Yes, in just a moment,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":785.24,"endTime":788.57,"body":"we're bringing Lee Robinson, the VP of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":788.57,"endTime":791.36,"body":"Product at Vercel, onto the podcast."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":791.36,"endTime":791.865,"body":"Stick around."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":793.581,"endTime":794.809,"body":"What's after copilot?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":795.139,"endTime":798.409,"body":"Join LinearB for a live workshop,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":795.139,"endTime":798.409,"body":"exploring the next frontier"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":798.409,"endTime":799.969,"body":"of AI in software development."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":800.359,"endTime":804.829,"body":"Learn how enterprise teams are going from"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":800.359,"endTime":804.829,"body":"assistive tools to agentic AI to boost"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":804.829,"endTime":809.269,"body":"productivity, orchestrate workflows,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":804.829,"endTime":809.269,"body":"and improve business impact Andrew"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":809.269,"endTime":813.209,"body":"Zigler will host some of the biggest"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":809.269,"endTime":813.209,"body":"names in AI as they dive into real"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":813.209,"endTime":815.609,"body":"world stories and new frameworks for AI"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":815.609,"endTime":816.719,"body":"first engineering."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":816.828,"endTime":819.182,"body":"Head over the show notes"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":816.828,"endTime":819.182,"body":"to reserve your spot today."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":823.248,"endTime":825.288,"body":"hey everyone, if"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":823.248,"endTime":825.288,"body":"you've been listening, joining"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":825.288,"endTime":827.358,"body":"us today is Lee Robinson."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":827.388,"endTime":829.178,"body":"He's the VP of Product at Vercel."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":829.578,"endTime":832.728,"body":"Vercel is the company behind"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":829.578,"endTime":832.728,"body":"Next.js and so much more"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":832.728,"endTime":834.258,"body":"that's powering the modern web."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":834.678,"endTime":837.798,"body":"And if you've been a long time"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":834.678,"endTime":837.798,"body":"listener, you'll remember something"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":837.798,"endTime":841.968,"body":"that Vercel CTO, Malte Ubl said"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":837.798,"endTime":841.968,"body":"on the show back in October."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":842.208,"endTime":848.228,"body":"He said, iteration velocity solves all"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":842.208,"endTime":848.228,"body":"known software problems, but here's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":848.228,"endTime":851.648,"body":"the thing, velocity only matters"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":848.228,"endTime":851.648,"body":"if your team can keep up with it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":852.408,"endTime":856.878,"body":"Shipping fast isn't just a systems"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":852.408,"endTime":856.878,"body":"problem, it's a people's challenge."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":856.968,"endTime":860.448,"body":"And that's why I am really excited"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":856.968,"endTime":860.448,"body":"to have Lee here today because Lee's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":860.448,"endTime":864.438,"body":"been at the forefront of building not"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":860.448,"endTime":864.438,"body":"just great developer tools, but also"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":864.438,"endTime":868.878,"body":"rethinking what a modern engineering"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":864.438,"endTime":868.878,"body":"team looks like in an AI driven era."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":869.238,"endTime":871.818,"body":"And he's not just doing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":869.238,"endTime":871.818,"body":"it, he's teaching it too."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":872.298,"endTime":875.358,"body":"I'm a big fan of how Lee educates"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":872.298,"endTime":875.358,"body":"his audience on YouTube, so be"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":875.358,"endTime":876.468,"body":"sure to check him out there."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":876.648,"endTime":878.088,"body":"And Lee, welcome to the show."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":878.687,"endTime":879.662,"body":"Thank you for having me."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":879.722,"endTime":880.652,"body":"Looking forward to talking."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":881.388,"endTime":883.428,"body":"Yeah, let's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":881.388,"endTime":883.428,"body":"dive right in on, on some of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":883.428,"endTime":884.388,"body":"the things that you're seeing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":884.448,"endTime":887.058,"body":"I wanna start with, something you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":884.448,"endTime":887.058,"body":"mentioned to me that was really thought"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":887.058,"endTime":892.248,"body":"provoking about, uh, how you're shifting"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":887.058,"endTime":892.248,"body":"from a traditional front end backend"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":892.248,"endTime":895.128,"body":"role division and how you think about."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":895.268,"endTime":896.648,"body":"How teams work together."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":896.948,"endTime":900.718,"body":"And instead, you're finding yourself,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":896.948,"endTime":900.718,"body":"evolving into thinking about a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":900.778,"endTime":905.008,"body":"product-focused engineer, someone who does"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":900.778,"endTime":905.008,"body":"maybe a little bit of all of those things."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":905.157,"endTime":905.577,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":905.608,"endTime":909.678,"body":"does this product,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":905.608,"endTime":909.678,"body":"perspective mean for you at Vercel?"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":910.24,"endTime":913.553,"body":"I'll go back a little"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":910.24,"endTime":913.553,"body":"bit to when frontend engineering"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":913.553,"endTime":919.703,"body":"started to become more popular at the"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":913.553,"endTime":919.703,"body":"time, 10 plus years ago, 15 years ago,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":920.093,"endTime":925.208,"body":"frontend engineering wasn't really, I."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":920.093,"endTime":925.208,"body":"Honestly thought of as the same level"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":925.208,"endTime":930.638,"body":"of caliber of difficulty as backend"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":925.208,"endTime":930.638,"body":"engineering or infrastructure engineering."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":930.848,"endTime":935.468,"body":"It was web developers who wanted to"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":930.848,"endTime":935.468,"body":"write their HTML and their CSS, and"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":935.768,"endTime":940.148,"body":"they weren't really building the"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":935.768,"endTime":940.148,"body":"applications, Over time, I think as"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":940.148,"endTime":943.928,"body":"more and more complex applications on"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":940.148,"endTime":943.928,"body":"the web started to get built, a lot"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":943.928,"endTime":947.468,"body":"of engineers realized, wow, the front"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":943.928,"endTime":947.468,"body":"end is actually pretty difficult."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":947.468,"endTime":949.928,"body":"There's a lot of things we need"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":947.468,"endTime":949.928,"body":"to consider when building these"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":949.928,"endTime":955.008,"body":"very, stateful, interactive"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":949.928,"endTime":955.008,"body":"complex, fast web applications."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":955.248,"endTime":958.608,"body":"And to do that, a lot of"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":955.248,"endTime":958.608,"body":"people wanted to specialize so."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":959.298,"endTime":961.038,"body":"Let's call it 2010."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":961.458,"endTime":965.658,"body":"I think we started to see a lot more"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":961.458,"endTime":965.658,"body":"specialization around, I want to be"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":965.658,"endTime":969.738,"body":"a senior, you know, software engineer"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":965.658,"endTime":969.738,"body":"focused on backend, and I want to be"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":969.738,"endTime":972.918,"body":"a senior software engineer focused"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":969.738,"endTime":972.918,"body":"on the front end and working with"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":972.918,"endTime":978.858,"body":"JavaScript or TypeScript or more than"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":972.918,"endTime":978.858,"body":"just a web developer or a web designer."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":979.578,"endTime":983.598,"body":"And over time, what started to happen was."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":984.333,"endTime":988.473,"body":"I saw teams put up these walls"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":984.333,"endTime":988.473,"body":"between where the front end was and"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":988.473,"endTime":992.943,"body":"where the back end was, and it's a"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":988.473,"endTime":992.943,"body":"little decoupled from the reality of"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":992.943,"endTime":994.623,"body":"how software actually gets shipped."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":995.388,"endTime":998.448,"body":"not like you just build something"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":995.388,"endTime":998.448,"body":"on the back end and throw it over"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":998.448,"endTime":1001.328,"body":"to the front end, and then it"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":998.448,"endTime":1001.328,"body":"just magically gets implemented."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1001.538,"endTime":1003.218,"body":"You often have to go back and forth."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1003.398,"endTime":1005.708,"body":"Maybe the API contract looks"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1003.398,"endTime":1005.708,"body":"a little bit different and"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1005.708,"endTime":1007.298,"body":"you need to make some changes."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1007.538,"endTime":1009.848,"body":"Maybe you needed a bit more data."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1010.205,"endTime":1013.325,"body":"it's really a lot more fluid"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1010.205,"endTime":1013.325,"body":"between the different parts"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1013.355,"endTime":1015.425,"body":"of the client and the server."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1015.815,"endTime":1021.335,"body":"And in that world it makes a lot more"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1015.815,"endTime":1021.335,"body":"sense to think about features and products"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1021.545,"endTime":1023.435,"body":"more holistically, more end to end."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1024.32,"endTime":1029.09,"body":"So throughout the 2010s, what I"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1024.32,"endTime":1029.09,"body":"started to see a lot of was more"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1029.09,"endTime":1033.71,"body":"people making the distinction of"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1029.09,"endTime":1033.71,"body":"product and platform engineers."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1034.34,"endTime":1037.55,"body":"A product engineer doesn't"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1034.34,"endTime":1037.55,"body":"think about necessarily the"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1037.55,"endTime":1039.26,"body":"front end or backend split."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1039.59,"endTime":1044.06,"body":"They think about everything that"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1039.59,"endTime":1044.06,"body":"it takes to ship a feature and"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1044.12,"endTime":1046.13,"body":"deliver customer value end to end."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1046.505,"endTime":1048.005,"body":"Across the entire product."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1048.395,"endTime":1052.325,"body":"Much more common at a startup because"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1048.395,"endTime":1052.325,"body":"you kind of have no choice but to"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1052.325,"endTime":1054.995,"body":"be a product engineer For some of"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1052.325,"endTime":1054.995,"body":"those early developers, you're, you"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1054.995,"endTime":1058.685,"body":"know, you're doing many different"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1054.995,"endTime":1058.685,"body":"things, but increasingly I saw product"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1058.685,"endTime":1063.22,"body":"engineering being a more prominent"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1058.685,"endTime":1063.22,"body":"specialization as companies got larger."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1063.53,"endTime":1066.89,"body":"Because there was this split between,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1063.53,"endTime":1066.89,"body":"I work on features end to end on"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1066.89,"endTime":1069.86,"body":"the product across the front and"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1066.89,"endTime":1069.86,"body":"the back end, and then other folks"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1069.86,"endTime":1074.93,"body":"who kind of self-selected into the"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1069.86,"endTime":1074.93,"body":"DevOps or infrastructure type worlds."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1075.23,"endTime":1081.01,"body":"And so I. I saw that shift happening"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1075.23,"endTime":1081.01,"body":"in the 2010s, then enter the 2020s,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1081.16,"endTime":1082.99,"body":"and we saw the AI revolution, right?"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1083.08,"endTime":1087.31,"body":"We saw ChatGPT we saw all these"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1083.08,"endTime":1087.31,"body":"new AI models, and increasingly"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1087.31,"endTime":1091.45,"body":"what mattered more than ever"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1087.31,"endTime":1091.45,"body":"was the product code, right?"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1091.54,"endTime":1094.24,"body":"It didn't really matter if you run"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1091.54,"endTime":1094.24,"body":"an engineer or backend engineer."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1094.3,"endTime":1097.24,"body":"All of a sudden, if you're kind of,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1094.3,"endTime":1097.24,"body":"if you're an amazing backend engineer,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1097.27,"endTime":1098.8,"body":"you're maybe not as great at front end."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1099.01,"endTime":1100.96,"body":"You're terrible at CSS, that's fine."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1101.11,"endTime":1102.64,"body":"I just work with an AI model."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1102.64,"endTime":1105.085,"body":"It helps me make pretty"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1102.64,"endTime":1105.085,"body":"decent looking front ends."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1105.085,"endTime":1108.985,"body":"It helps me understand how they work"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1105.085,"endTime":1108.985,"body":"and I can actually deliver value"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1109.195,"endTime":1113.215,"body":"to my customers, to the product"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1109.195,"endTime":1113.215,"body":"across the entire spectrum of"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1113.215,"endTime":1115.435,"body":"code on the client and the server."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1115.465,"endTime":1120.175,"body":"So in an AI first era product"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1115.465,"endTime":1120.175,"body":"engineering is more important than ever."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1120.295,"endTime":1120.835,"body":"Dare I say."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1120.835,"endTime":1122.875,"body":"It's basically the only thing left."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1122.905,"endTime":1126.445,"body":"When you're working with ai, you"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1122.905,"endTime":1126.445,"body":"have to think about the entire"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1126.445,"endTime":1127.48,"body":"experience from end to end."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1128.0,"endTime":1128.75,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1128.81,"endTime":1131.48,"body":"That's really insightful and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1128.81,"endTime":1131.48,"body":"there's actually a lot in there"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1131.54,"endTime":1132.808,"body":"that's really good to unpack."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1132.858,"endTime":1135.618,"body":"I think it's good to zoom out and look"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1132.858,"endTime":1135.618,"body":"at this timeline that you've given us."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1135.618,"endTime":1138.498,"body":"'cause it's really helpful for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1135.618,"endTime":1138.498,"body":"understanding how that's evolved."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1138.808,"endTime":1142.048,"body":"my background in tech and kind of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1138.808,"endTime":1142.048,"body":"how I got started in it is in web."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1142.048,"endTime":1143.138,"body":"Dev and web design."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1143.138,"endTime":1147.368,"body":"So like I know this evolution in the 2010s"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1143.138,"endTime":1147.368,"body":"that you're talking about, it was when"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1147.368,"endTime":1149.078,"body":"I was learning a lot of my skill stack."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1149.288,"endTime":1153.678,"body":"And that was something that I noticed"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1149.288,"endTime":1153.678,"body":"immediately is like you described,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1153.678,"endTime":1156.948,"body":"you have the people who just want to,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1153.678,"endTime":1156.948,"body":"write their HTL and CSS and you had"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1156.948,"endTime":1160.308,"body":"the people who wanted to interact with"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1156.948,"endTime":1160.308,"body":"the server and it didn't really feel"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1160.338,"endTime":1161.718,"body":"like those worlds were going to meet."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1161.748,"endTime":1163.098,"body":"But over time."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1163.363,"endTime":1166.903,"body":"All of those walls fell down,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1163.363,"endTime":1166.903,"body":"but they started to fall down"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1167.053,"endTime":1169.093,"body":"long before AI got on the scene."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1169.093,"endTime":1172.663,"body":"This isn't AI coming in and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1169.093,"endTime":1172.663,"body":"turning something else upside down."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1172.903,"endTime":1176.023,"body":"This is a natural evolution of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1172.903,"endTime":1176.023,"body":"how like web technologies evolved"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1176.023,"endTime":1178.693,"body":"because more of the things that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1176.023,"endTime":1178.693,"body":"you used to have to confine to a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1178.693,"endTime":1181.303,"body":"server got brought into the browser."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1181.453,"endTime":1184.543,"body":"You were able to write them as apps"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1181.453,"endTime":1184.543,"body":"and they were able to live alongside"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1184.543,"endTime":1189.223,"body":"the design and the HTML, and that kind"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1184.543,"endTime":1189.223,"body":"of opened up this whole new paradigm."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1189.223,"endTime":1191.563,"body":"You started to see like the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1189.223,"endTime":1191.563,"body":"full stack engineers, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1191.563,"endTime":1192.583,"body":"You see people kind of."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1192.898,"endTime":1194.488,"body":"Combine both of these things."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1194.488,"endTime":1199.678,"body":"But now you have the opportunity to go"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1194.488,"endTime":1199.678,"body":"really deep on your specialization and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1199.678,"endTime":1203.788,"body":"have the thing that really you love"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1199.678,"endTime":1203.788,"body":"and that like draws you to what you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1204.028,"endTime":1205.798,"body":"are are doing in software development."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1205.798,"endTime":1208.138,"body":"'cause every developer, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1205.798,"endTime":1208.138,"body":"know, at the end of the day,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1208.138,"endTime":1209.068,"body":"they wanna write good code."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1209.068,"endTime":1211.148,"body":"They want to ship their product,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1209.068,"endTime":1211.148,"body":"they wanna make something great."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1211.418,"endTime":1215.808,"body":"And when you're using a tool"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1211.418,"endTime":1215.808,"body":"like this, like AI to augment."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1215.883,"endTime":1218.973,"body":"The parts that you don't know or"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1215.883,"endTime":1218.973,"body":"that you're not good at now, suddenly"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1218.973,"endTime":1222.543,"body":"you can fly because you can focus"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1218.973,"endTime":1222.543,"body":"on the things you're great at."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1222.723,"endTime":1226.465,"body":"You can get that kind of, uh, support"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1222.723,"endTime":1226.465,"body":"that you would need from like a team."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1226.645,"endTime":1231.385,"body":"But then alongside it, the tooling that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1226.645,"endTime":1231.385,"body":"you're building your website with has"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1231.385,"endTime":1232.765,"body":"evolved and caught up with you too."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1233.005,"endTime":1236.465,"body":"So, now if you wanna do it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1233.005,"endTime":1236.465,"body":"all on the server, you can."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1236.465,"endTime":1238.685,"body":"If you want to do it all"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1236.465,"endTime":1238.685,"body":"in the website, you can."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1238.685,"endTime":1240.455,"body":"You just pick where you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1238.685,"endTime":1240.455,"body":"want to go and you build it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1241.068,"endTime":1246.138,"body":", Do you think that based upon this, that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1241.068,"endTime":1246.138,"body":"teams will evolve to, instead of being"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1246.348,"endTime":1250.578,"body":"backend and front end and DevOps teams"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1246.348,"endTime":1250.578,"body":"and platform teams and all these like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1250.578,"endTime":1254.718,"body":"different kind of specialized teams"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1250.578,"endTime":1254.718,"body":"into just being a cohort of maybe like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1254.718,"endTime":1260.148,"body":"more product oriented engineers who take"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1254.718,"endTime":1260.148,"body":"roles and responsibilities as needed?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1260.148,"endTime":1263.658,"body":"Do you see more of like a, it's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1260.148,"endTime":1263.658,"body":"like a communal group of developers"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1263.658,"endTime":1266.208,"body":"rather than everyone kind of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1263.658,"endTime":1266.208,"body":"has their, their work silo."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1266.682,"endTime":1269.262,"body":"So, I will first"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1266.682,"endTime":1269.262,"body":"caveat with saying there will"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1269.262,"endTime":1273.227,"body":"always be specialists There's always"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1269.262,"endTime":1273.227,"body":"gonna be that person who is the."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1273.942,"endTime":1278.622,"body":"Absolute master of infrastructure,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1273.942,"endTime":1278.622,"body":"master of frontend master of backend,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1278.892,"endTime":1283.362,"body":"uh, amazing product manager, amazing"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1278.892,"endTime":1283.362,"body":"designer, you know, a 100x designer."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1283.512,"endTime":1287.082,"body":"Those people will always exist and"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1283.512,"endTime":1287.082,"body":"they're going to be more powerful"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1287.082,"endTime":1289.642,"body":"than ever with AI enhanced tooling."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1290.252,"endTime":1295.092,"body":"However, I think across, you know, one"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1290.252,"endTime":1295.092,"body":"to five person startups all the way up"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1295.092,"endTime":1299.172,"body":"to kind of growing SMB companies, small"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1295.092,"endTime":1299.172,"body":"to medium sized businesses, all the"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1299.172,"endTime":1300.822,"body":"way up to like very large enterprises."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1300.972,"endTime":1304.812,"body":"I think the makeup of how the"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1300.972,"endTime":1304.812,"body":"team is structured is changing"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1304.812,"endTime":1306.432,"body":"a lot because of AI tools."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1306.792,"endTime":1310.892,"body":"for context, one of the, the products"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1306.792,"endTime":1310.892,"body":"that Vercel builds is called v0.dev."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1311.212,"endTime":1313.462,"body":"It's a product that helps you build."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1313.837,"endTime":1315.967,"body":"Applications completely with ai."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1315.997,"endTime":1319.777,"body":"So you might call that an agent, depending"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1315.997,"endTime":1319.777,"body":"on what your definition of that is."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1319.777,"endTime":1323.917,"body":"But you write in, you know, I want to"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1319.777,"endTime":1323.917,"body":"build an app that does x. It generates"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1323.917,"endTime":1327.367,"body":"the code and it helps you make something"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1323.917,"endTime":1327.367,"body":"that's quality, that works well, that"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1327.367,"endTime":1332.657,"body":"has a nice design, great ux, and you"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1327.367,"endTime":1332.657,"body":"can just iterate on it by writing"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1332.657,"endTime":1334.307,"body":"in the chat and asking questions."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1334.457,"endTime":1337.127,"body":"And what we've found from"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1334.457,"endTime":1337.127,"body":"talking to a lot of the."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1337.297,"endTime":1340.327,"body":"millions of people who use"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1337.297,"endTime":1340.327,"body":"this product now is they're not"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1340.507,"endTime":1342.847,"body":"traditional developers, right?"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1342.937,"endTime":1346.327,"body":"A lot of the people who are starting"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1342.937,"endTime":1346.327,"body":"to use these tools, V zero is not"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1346.327,"endTime":1348.877,"body":"the only one, are product managers,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1349.418,"endTime":1349.638,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1350.587,"endTime":1354.907,"body":"designers,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1350.587,"endTime":1354.907,"body":"founders, people, tech adjacent."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1355.027,"endTime":1355.267,"body":"Maybe"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1355.268,"endTime":1355.688,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1355.807,"endTime":1358.417,"body":"have a, a"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1355.807,"endTime":1358.417,"body":"normal job working in tech."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1359.137,"endTime":1363.867,"body":"There are people who are, sometimes"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1359.137,"endTime":1363.867,"body":"technical, or interested in becoming."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1364.217,"endTime":1369.017,"body":"Even more technical, wanting to learn how"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1364.217,"endTime":1369.017,"body":"to really create and build products and."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1369.457,"endTime":1375.307,"body":"These AI tools are giving them the power"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1369.457,"endTime":1375.307,"body":"that they didn't have before to not only"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1375.427,"endTime":1379.687,"body":"generate and build apps, but really ask"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1375.427,"endTime":1379.687,"body":"questions to understand how it works."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1379.897,"endTime":1383.887,"body":"Because that's often one of the trickiest"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1379.897,"endTime":1383.887,"body":"parts is like, yes, maybe you could use"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1383.887,"endTime":1388.867,"body":"the no code tools of the past that took a"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1383.887,"endTime":1388.867,"body":"spreadsheet and generated some UI from it."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1389.137,"endTime":1391.657,"body":"But one, you didn't really"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1389.137,"endTime":1391.657,"body":"understand how it worked."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1391.657,"endTime":1393.907,"body":"It was kind of a black box and two."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1394.282,"endTime":1397.942,"body":"It was hard to get that fine grain"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1394.282,"endTime":1397.942,"body":"customization when you wanted to like"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1397.942,"endTime":1402.022,"body":"eject out and do something a little off"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1397.942,"endTime":1402.022,"body":"the beaten path, like there maybe wasn't"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1402.022,"endTime":1403.972,"body":"a switch or a toggle for it in the ui."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1404.455,"endTime":1409.825,"body":"I give that backstory to say I've"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1404.455,"endTime":1409.825,"body":"been fortunate enough to talk to many"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1409.825,"endTime":1414.325,"body":"teams now, ours as well internally,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1409.825,"endTime":1414.325,"body":"who are going through this shift of"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1414.505,"endTime":1420.025,"body":"what does the world look like you"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1414.505,"endTime":1420.025,"body":"have these type of tools and you know"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1420.265,"endTime":1423.355,"body":"that they're just going to get better,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1420.265,"endTime":1423.355,"body":"they're the worst they'll ever be."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1423.595,"endTime":1424.795,"body":"In a year."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1424.795,"endTime":1426.145,"body":"It will be 10 times better."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1426.235,"endTime":1428.305,"body":"In five years, it will be"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1426.235,"endTime":1428.305,"body":"a hundred times better."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1428.665,"endTime":1432.955,"body":"So what do you do as you start to think"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1428.665,"endTime":1432.955,"body":"about not only how you structure your team"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1432.955,"endTime":1437.065,"body":"right now, but how you plan for the next"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1432.955,"endTime":1437.065,"body":"year and five years down the road, how"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1437.065,"endTime":1438.985,"body":"you think about your career long term."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1439.465,"endTime":1444.695,"body":"And on one hand, as an individual,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1439.465,"endTime":1444.695,"body":"I can empathize a lot with people's"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1444.695,"endTime":1449.29,"body":"anxiety over this because it's a little"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1444.695,"endTime":1449.29,"body":"bit of a soul searching exercise if"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1449.29,"endTime":1452.135,"body":"your identity has been tied up in."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1452.81,"endTime":1454.1,"body":"I write code."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1454.49,"endTime":1455.75,"body":"I'm a front and engineer."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1455.96,"endTime":1459.13,"body":"I really like building,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1455.96,"endTime":1459.13,"body":"pretty pixels on the screen."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1459.37,"endTime":1465.13,"body":"It's a little bit of a strange feeling"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1459.37,"endTime":1465.13,"body":"to know that AIs are getting very"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1465.13,"endTime":1466.69,"body":"good at doing that type of work."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1466.69,"endTime":1468.49,"body":"Like, weren't they supposed"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1466.69,"endTime":1468.49,"body":"to fold my laundry?"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1468.49,"endTime":1470.14,"body":"Like, why are they doing my job?"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1471.19,"endTime":1475.78,"body":"Um, and I think what it"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1471.19,"endTime":1475.78,"body":"has done is it has both."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1476.545,"endTime":1480.265,"body":"Raise the floor and the ceiling"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1476.545,"endTime":1480.265,"body":"for the type and the quality of"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1480.265,"endTime":1481.975,"body":"applications that people can build."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1482.545,"endTime":1489.015,"body":"But what it's also done is it's kind"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1482.545,"endTime":1489.015,"body":"of normalized the ceiling of what"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1489.015,"endTime":1493.825,"body":"people across developers, marketers,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1489.015,"endTime":1493.825,"body":"product managers, any of these type"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1493.825,"endTime":1497.335,"body":"of folks, it's leveled the playing"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1493.825,"endTime":1497.335,"body":"field of what they can create."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1497.785,"endTime":1500.245,"body":"So for example, I'm a product manager."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1501.205,"endTime":1502.525,"body":"I have a very good product sense."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1502.525,"endTime":1503.755,"body":"I talk to customers."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1503.875,"endTime":1504.865,"body":"I know what they want."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1504.865,"endTime":1506.185,"body":"I have these ideas in my head."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1507.085,"endTime":1509.005,"body":"actually, I thought about"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1507.085,"endTime":1509.005,"body":"learning to code in college."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1509.005,"endTime":1511.735,"body":"I took that one class on Python"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1509.005,"endTime":1511.735,"body":"and then I kind of gave up on it,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1511.785,"endTime":1513.135,"body":"I would love to build more apps."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1513.135,"endTime":1515.595,"body":"Maybe I prototyped some stuff"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1513.135,"endTime":1515.595,"body":"in Figma, but you know, I don't"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1515.595,"endTime":1516.855,"body":"really spend a lot of time on it."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1516.885,"endTime":1518.685,"body":"'cause I'm trying to be"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1516.885,"endTime":1518.685,"body":"a great product manager."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1518.835,"endTime":1520.095,"body":"I have great product sets."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1520.995,"endTime":1524.415,"body":"these AI tools come along"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1520.995,"endTime":1524.415,"body":"and all of a sudden the like."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1524.73,"endTime":1529.2,"body":"Wire frame or napkin drawn ideas"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1524.73,"endTime":1529.2,"body":"that I hand off to my Dev team."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1529.32,"endTime":1532.71,"body":"I'm actually building functional"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1529.32,"endTime":1532.71,"body":"working prototypes that you can"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1532.71,"endTime":1534.3,"body":"click around and try in the browser."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1534.3,"endTime":1534.66,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1534.66,"endTime":1535.71,"body":"They're not, perfect."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1535.92,"endTime":1538.92,"body":"We might not actually ship"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1535.92,"endTime":1538.92,"body":"that code, but it's real."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1539.265,"endTime":1543.885,"body":"That's kind of this gateway to"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1539.265,"endTime":1543.885,"body":"actually, I can build my ideas."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1544.065,"endTime":1547.995,"body":"I can just take this nebulous"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1544.065,"endTime":1547.995,"body":"thing in my head and turn it"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1547.995,"endTime":1549.615,"body":"into real working software."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1549.985,"endTime":1553.105,"body":"I have a blog post on my site called"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1549.985,"endTime":1553.105,"body":"Personal Software where if you"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1553.105,"endTime":1558.625,"body":"extrapolate this out over a longer time"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1553.105,"endTime":1558.625,"body":"period, I do think we'll enter a world"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1558.625,"endTime":1563.595,"body":"where if you are so inclined to want"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1558.625,"endTime":1563.595,"body":"to create your own software for any."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1564.155,"endTime":1565.055,"body":"anything really."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1565.465,"endTime":1569.56,"body":"If you wanna make your own app for recipes"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1565.465,"endTime":1569.56,"body":"for your meals, because you're wanting to"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1569.56,"endTime":1573.1,"body":"become a chef, you're wanting to make your"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1569.56,"endTime":1573.1,"body":"own music player that's, perfectly tuned"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1573.1,"endTime":1577.18,"body":"to exactly the music you listen to and the"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1573.1,"endTime":1577.18,"body":"features you want, you can just build it."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1577.42,"endTime":1581.51,"body":"And you might not have ever written a"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1577.42,"endTime":1581.51,"body":"line of code before and that's fine."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1581.93,"endTime":1587.6,"body":"So all of that context to say the"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1581.93,"endTime":1587.6,"body":"makeup of the teams is then shifting"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1587.69,"endTime":1589.43,"body":"to where you see more and more people."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1589.73,"endTime":1595.43,"body":"Who maybe focus a bit less on the"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1589.73,"endTime":1595.43,"body":"code as their full-time effort,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1595.49,"endTime":1599.81,"body":"and they're more of an architect"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1595.49,"endTime":1599.81,"body":"or a planner or a product thinker."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1600.39,"endTime":1602.54,"body":"They're much closer to"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1600.39,"endTime":1602.54,"body":"the customer experience."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1602.57,"endTime":1606.38,"body":"They're much closer to the product"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1602.57,"endTime":1606.38,"body":"experience on delivering actual value"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1606.38,"endTime":1608.3,"body":"to people who are giving them money."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1608.75,"endTime":1613.1,"body":"And I think over the long term"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1608.75,"endTime":1613.1,"body":"it will change even further the,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1613.34,"endTime":1614.57,"body":"the way these teams operate."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1615.168,"endTime":1616.338,"body":"There's so"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1615.168,"endTime":1616.338,"body":"much good stuff in there."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1616.368,"endTime":1620.028,"body":"I wanna unpack some of it because you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1616.368,"endTime":1620.028,"body":"covered a lot of really great points"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1620.028,"endTime":1623.898,"body":"that I really identify with that I'm"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1620.028,"endTime":1623.898,"body":"also seeing as well when I talk with"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1623.898,"endTime":1627.508,"body":"people, when I interact with folks"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1623.898,"endTime":1627.508,"body":"that are adjacent to tech especially,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1627.538,"endTime":1630.238,"body":"and how they approach the tools and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1627.538,"endTime":1630.238,"body":"what they can create, it's actually"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1630.238,"endTime":1634.808,"body":"quite profound what someone can build"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1630.238,"endTime":1634.808,"body":"with little to no technical knowledge."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1634.808,"endTime":1638.258,"body":"and then what impresses me even"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1634.808,"endTime":1638.258,"body":"more as like a former teacher, like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1638.258,"endTime":1639.758,"body":"being in a classroom is I was like."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1640.015,"endTime":1640.375,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1640.375,"endTime":1642.77,"body":"It's, it's really hard to, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1640.375,"endTime":1642.77,"body":"know, I, I maybe couldn't teach my"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1642.77,"endTime":1646.76,"body":"grandma Python very well, but I could"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1642.77,"endTime":1646.76,"body":"probably teach my grandma what makes"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1646.76,"endTime":1649.97,"body":"a good product and what makes a bad"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1646.76,"endTime":1649.97,"body":"one, and how to iterate through it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1650.09,"endTime":1650.48,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1650.78,"endTime":1653.12,"body":"She can cook a recipe in the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1650.78,"endTime":1653.12,"body":"same way that I could explain to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1653.12,"endTime":1656.69,"body":"her how you make something good,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1653.12,"endTime":1656.69,"body":"and that's a huge unlock, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1656.69,"endTime":1658.97,"body":"It's like now suddenly you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1656.69,"endTime":1658.97,"body":"have this whole field of."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1659.37,"endTime":1660.99,"body":"we call them whatever you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1659.37,"endTime":1660.99,"body":"want, but some people will call"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1660.99,"endTime":1662.4,"body":"'em like citizen developers."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1662.4,"endTime":1665.82,"body":"I think it's just like the new norm"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1662.4,"endTime":1665.82,"body":"of access to technology, of being"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1665.82,"endTime":1669.79,"body":"able to go to something like you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1665.82,"endTime":1669.79,"body":"described of like V zero, and type"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1669.79,"endTime":1671.2,"body":"in a concepting and get it back."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1671.23,"endTime":1672.34,"body":"I liked how you framed it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1672.34,"endTime":1673.51,"body":"I liked how you defined it as."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1673.77,"endTime":1674.82,"body":"Personal software."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1674.955,"endTime":1677.985,"body":"the term I've been using and we've"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1674.955,"endTime":1677.985,"body":"been kind of talking about a bit"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1677.985,"endTime":1681.615,"body":"on Dev Interrupted, is disposable"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1677.985,"endTime":1681.615,"body":"software of like, you just almost"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1681.615,"endTime":1683.325,"body":"need it for a one-off purpose."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1683.325,"endTime":1685.635,"body":"Or the idea of something before that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1685.635,"endTime":1690.135,"body":"Like, oh, you know, you do it once and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1685.635,"endTime":1690.135,"body":"it's a little annoying, you do it twice"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1690.135,"endTime":1692.145,"body":"and now you're like repeating yourself."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1692.175,"endTime":1692.715,"body":"Do it three times."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1692.715,"endTime":1693.735,"body":"Now I need to automate it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1693.915,"endTime":1697.185,"body":"Well, maybe this would be what you'd"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1693.915,"endTime":1697.185,"body":"build around, like time number two."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1697.215,"endTime":1698.775,"body":"You're like, I did it the first time."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1698.985,"endTime":1700.095,"body":"I kind of knew what I need."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1700.27,"endTime":1703.93,"body":"If I could just build this little"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1700.27,"endTime":1703.93,"body":"eject like tool or toy to like just"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1703.99,"endTime":1705.49,"body":"do it when I need it on demand."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1705.49,"endTime":1706.45,"body":"Now I don't have to think about like."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1707.035,"endTime":1707.725,"body":"Automating it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1707.755,"endTime":1709.015,"body":"Maybe this isn't worth automating."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1709.225,"endTime":1712.915,"body":"Um, I, I'm wondering too about how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1709.225,"endTime":1712.915,"body":"do you see teams and stuff take"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1712.915,"endTime":1716.345,"body":"advantage of things like automation,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1712.915,"endTime":1716.345,"body":"to improve their productivity"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1716.375,"endTime":1717.845,"body":"and their developer experience?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1718.085,"endTime":1721.655,"body":"'cause I can't think of something that's,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1718.085,"endTime":1721.655,"body":"has a faster shipping timeline that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1721.655,"endTime":1725.965,"body":"has a, better workflows and pipelines"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1721.655,"endTime":1725.965,"body":"than web Dev, which has always been on"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1725.965,"endTime":1727.615,"body":"the front line of those kinds of tools."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1727.795,"endTime":1728.275,"body":"So like what?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1728.305,"endTime":1729.355,"body":"What kind of things are you seeing?"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1729.764,"endTime":1729.944,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1729.944,"endTime":1734.334,"body":"I think for a lot of the, people who"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1729.944,"endTime":1734.334,"body":"just have an idea but they don't know"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1734.334,"endTime":1738.564,"body":"how to build it, there's always been"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1734.334,"endTime":1738.564,"body":"this like long running meme or joke"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1738.564,"endTime":1743.814,"body":"of, have that friend who's the idea"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1738.564,"endTime":1743.814,"body":"guy and they're like, I have an app."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1743.874,"endTime":1745.734,"body":"I need, I need a guy to build my app."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1745.734,"endTime":1746.094,"body":"Like, can you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1746.27,"endTime":1746.49,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1746.514,"endTime":1746.784,"body":"app?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1747.44,"endTime":1747.98,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1747.98,"endTime":1749.21,"body":"You took this right out of my mouth."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1749.694,"endTime":1749.874,"body":"because,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1750.02,"endTime":1751.52,"body":"made this same joke."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1751.52,"endTime":1752.36,"body":"It's so good."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1752.48,"endTime":1752.84,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1752.911,"endTime":1755.911,"body":"I, I think that for,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1752.911,"endTime":1755.911,"body":"I, I believe the kids are calling"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1755.911,"endTime":1760.238,"body":"them Normies, for the general,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1755.911,"endTime":1760.238,"body":"population for most people."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1760.338,"endTime":1760.788,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1760.912,"endTime":1763.072,"body":"they go to the app"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1760.912,"endTime":1763.072,"body":"store and they download apps."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1763.272,"endTime":1765.762,"body":"they use a lot of websites too,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1763.272,"endTime":1765.762,"body":"but I think a lot of people"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1765.762,"endTime":1770.172,"body":"are exposed to their phones and"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1765.762,"endTime":1770.172,"body":"downloading an app on their phone."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1770.172,"endTime":1771.342,"body":"They download Instagram or whatever."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1772.122,"endTime":1774.672,"body":"for these people they"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1772.122,"endTime":1774.672,"body":"thinking, I have this idea."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1774.672,"endTime":1778.842,"body":"I wanna build an app, or I want"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1774.672,"endTime":1778.842,"body":"to build a product based on that."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1779.652,"endTime":1783.372,"body":"They don't really know exactly"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1779.652,"endTime":1783.372,"body":"how to go from A to B, like"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1783.552,"endTime":1785.142,"body":"draw the rest of the owl meme."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1785.202,"endTime":1786.942,"body":"Like, okay, I think I know what I need to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1787.128,"endTime":1787.418,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1787.482,"endTime":1789.462,"body":"to talk to"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1787.482,"endTime":1789.462,"body":"somebody to actually get it done."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1791.267,"endTime":1797.477,"body":"I think what these tools are doing is"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1791.267,"endTime":1797.477,"body":"they're allowing people to actually take"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1797.477,"endTime":1801.857,"body":"that first step and just try something"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1797.477,"endTime":1801.857,"body":"out, and maybe it's not perfect."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1802.337,"endTime":1806.267,"body":"Maybe it's, you know, still needs some"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1802.337,"endTime":1806.267,"body":"work, but they've got something that"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1806.267,"endTime":1808.517,"body":"they can then iterate and build from."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1808.877,"endTime":1813.227,"body":"I know at least for myself, whenever"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1808.877,"endTime":1813.227,"body":"I'm learning something new, it's the,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1814.007,"endTime":1818.027,"body":"like, when, you know, there's this really"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1814.007,"endTime":1818.027,"body":"complex and difficult and daunting task."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1818.447,"endTime":1822.497,"body":"It's very easy to get stuck in"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1818.447,"endTime":1822.497,"body":"knowing I've got a lot of stuff to do."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1822.497,"endTime":1824.357,"body":"How am I actually gonna get to the end?"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1824.597,"endTime":1828.527,"body":"And the only way for me personally"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1824.597,"endTime":1828.527,"body":"is like making very small incremental"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1828.527,"endTime":1832.337,"body":"steps and then having some kind of"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1828.527,"endTime":1832.337,"body":"reward system along the way where"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1832.337,"endTime":1834.107,"body":"I'm like, oh wow, okay, awesome."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1834.107,"endTime":1835.187,"body":"Like, I, I did it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1835.773,"endTime":1836.063,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1836.087,"endTime":1836.717,"body":"works."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1837.437,"endTime":1841.657,"body":"as a personal anecdote, when I was"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1837.437,"endTime":1841.657,"body":"learning to program, somewhere along the"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1841.657,"endTime":1843.937,"body":"way I started to get into app development."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1843.997,"endTime":1845.857,"body":"'cause I thought, this"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1843.997,"endTime":1845.857,"body":"seems really interesting."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1845.857,"endTime":1846.847,"body":"I'll, I'll learn how to do it."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1847.612,"endTime":1858.322,"body":"And the speed from Idea to published app"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1847.612,"endTime":1858.322,"body":"was just so incredibly slow that it really"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1858.652,"endTime":1863.602,"body":"just took all the wind outta my sails"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1858.652,"endTime":1863.602,"body":"for wanting to build app development."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1863.887,"endTime":1869.497,"body":"Not only was it very hard for me to come"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1863.887,"endTime":1869.497,"body":"up with ideas and then turn it into code"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1869.497,"endTime":1873.577,"body":"and iterate on the idea and then actually"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1869.497,"endTime":1873.577,"body":"get it distributed on the App store."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1873.697,"endTime":1878.257,"body":"But then once it got out there, I was"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1873.697,"endTime":1878.257,"body":"like beholden to the strange Apple rules."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1878.527,"endTime":1881.557,"body":"and if you made a mistake, now"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1878.527,"endTime":1881.557,"body":"you had to push a new version and"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1881.557,"endTime":1882.937,"body":"that version had to get updated."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1882.937,"endTime":1885.397,"body":"And it was like, oh my gosh,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1882.937,"endTime":1885.397,"body":"this is just, this is a lot."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1885.787,"endTime":1886.957,"body":"And it really made me."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1888.007,"endTime":1891.637,"body":"Like re fall in love with the"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1888.007,"endTime":1891.637,"body":"simplicity of the open web."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1891.817,"endTime":1894.037,"body":"Anybody can just publish stuff."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1894.067,"endTime":1896.137,"body":"You don't need permission from anybody."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1896.407,"endTime":1899.977,"body":"Anyone around the world can buy a"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1896.407,"endTime":1899.977,"body":"server and put their site online."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1900.187,"endTime":1903.727,"body":"They can upload files to A CDN and"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1900.187,"endTime":1903.727,"body":"distribute it around the world."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1903.787,"endTime":1908.137,"body":"They can use a service like Vercel, it's"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1903.787,"endTime":1908.137,"body":"got a free tier, and get a site online."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1908.257,"endTime":1912.457,"body":"They can use a tool like v0 or"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1908.257,"endTime":1912.457,"body":"others and just type in their idea."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1912.457,"endTime":1914.647,"body":"Click a button to deploy"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1912.457,"endTime":1914.647,"body":"to Vercel and it's live."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1915.037,"endTime":1920.742,"body":"And I think that of tool will really"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1915.037,"endTime":1920.742,"body":"democratize the power of the open web,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1920.922,"endTime":1924.012,"body":"which is that anybody can build any"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1920.922,"endTime":1924.012,"body":"idea without having to ask anybody."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1924.215,"endTime":1927.275,"body":"That's what gets me really excited I"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1924.215,"endTime":1927.275,"body":"think about this next generation of tools."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1927.948,"endTime":1929.178,"body":"You really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1927.948,"endTime":1929.178,"body":"couldn't have said it better."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1929.208,"endTime":1933.288,"body":"I also really like the idea of now"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1929.208,"endTime":1933.288,"body":"the ideas guy and they have everything"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1933.288,"endTime":1935.268,"body":"they need to execute their idea."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1935.488,"endTime":1937.558,"body":"and I'm sure you'll see a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1935.488,"endTime":1937.558,"body":"lot of interesting, fun ones."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1937.558,"endTime":1937.588,"body":"I."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":1937.657,"endTime":1938.507,"body":"link to v0,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1939.448,"endTime":1940.618,"body":"Yeah, precisely."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1940.618,"endTime":1942.784,"body":"It's like, yeah, it's,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1940.618,"endTime":1942.784,"body":"it's his dream come true."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1943.004,"endTime":1946.894,"body":"and so along the way, you know,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1943.004,"endTime":1946.894,"body":"there are those obvious wins, about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1946.894,"endTime":1950.594,"body":"the building, but also when teams"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1946.894,"endTime":1950.594,"body":"are working and they're deploying,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1950.814,"endTime":1952.014,"body":"you called out a really good."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1952.186,"endTime":1953.776,"body":"key differentiator of the open web."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1953.776,"endTime":1956.236,"body":"But what I like about it too is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1953.776,"endTime":1956.236,"body":"that, anyone can build on it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1956.236,"endTime":1957.196,"body":"You can get on there fast."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1957.196,"endTime":1958.456,"body":"it's not a closed garden."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1958.456,"endTime":1960.443,"body":"You don't have to be"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1958.456,"endTime":1960.443,"body":"beholden to someone else."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1960.493,"endTime":1963.173,"body":"and so that really levels the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1960.493,"endTime":1963.173,"body":"playing field, but that also"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1963.173,"endTime":1965.033,"body":"allows for really rapid iteration."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1965.063,"endTime":1968.123,"body":"You know, you pointed out how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1965.063,"endTime":1968.123,"body":"there's like so much tooling and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1968.123,"endTime":1969.733,"body":"so much, opportunity available."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1969.733,"endTime":1973.738,"body":"Specifically to take advantage of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1969.733,"endTime":1973.738,"body":"these AI tools on an interface like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1973.738,"endTime":1977.458,"body":"the web, because it's evolving at"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1973.738,"endTime":1977.458,"body":"light speed, it's evolving as fast"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1977.458,"endTime":1978.748,"body":"as people can upload stuff to it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1978.748,"endTime":1984.938,"body":"So, along the way the fundamentals"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1978.748,"endTime":1984.938,"body":"become even more important because now"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1984.938,"endTime":1988.338,"body":"you've built this like, this one-off"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1984.938,"endTime":1988.338,"body":"app and you've ejected it and you have"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1988.338,"endTime":1990.948,"body":"your proof of concept as you said, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1988.338,"endTime":1990.948,"body":"know, you're like tinkering with it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1990.948,"endTime":1991.541,"body":"It works."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1991.541,"endTime":1993.251,"body":"but now you need to take it from."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1993.686,"endTime":1996.926,"body":"80 to 90, and then you need to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1993.686,"endTime":1996.926,"body":"take it from 90 to a hundred."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1996.926,"endTime":2001.246,"body":"And those are two very"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1996.926,"endTime":2001.246,"body":"different, like leaps and bounds"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2001.246,"endTime":2002.716,"body":"in the development process."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2002.966,"endTime":2007.346,"body":"and for hobbyists or citizen developers,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2002.966,"endTime":2007.346,"body":"you know, they've never taken"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2007.346,"endTime":2009.356,"body":"anything from 80 to 90 to 90 to 100."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2009.356,"endTime":2011.186,"body":"That's a whole new territory for them."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2011.186,"endTime":2012.686,"body":"they've been focused on zero to one."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2012.701,"endTime":2013.571,"body":"This whole time."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2013.601,"endTime":2017.681,"body":"And so when you talk about that, what"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2013.601,"endTime":2017.681,"body":"kind of opportunities and games do you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2017.681,"endTime":2022.941,"body":"see for teams that are taking things"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2017.681,"endTime":2022.941,"body":"from 80 to 90, 90 to 100, 99 to a 100,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2022.961,"endTime":2029.434,"body":"you know, are there, specific kind of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2022.961,"endTime":2029.434,"body":"tools or orchestration or ways that teams"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2029.494,"endTime":2032.991,"body":"like, talk about what they're doing week"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2029.494,"endTime":2032.991,"body":"to week that you see really kind of like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2032.991,"endTime":2034.881,"body":"shine in terms of high performing teams?"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2035.482,"endTime":2040.892,"body":"Yeah, so my personal"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2035.482,"endTime":2040.892,"body":"experience is that, AI tools and"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2040.892,"endTime":2045.372,"body":"especially around code generation, are"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2040.892,"endTime":2045.372,"body":"very helpful from going from zero to"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2045.372,"endTime":2049.367,"body":"one or from zero to 50% In your analogy."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2050.187,"endTime":2056.637,"body":"From the 80% to a 100%, it's a little"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2050.187,"endTime":2056.637,"body":"more difficult because at that point"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2056.637,"endTime":2060.417,"body":"you need to have more of an opinion"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2056.637,"endTime":2060.417,"body":"about what exactly you're trying to"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2060.417,"endTime":2061.797,"body":"build and what you need to get done."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2062.517,"endTime":2068.667,"body":"At that point, it's more of a consultant"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2062.517,"endTime":2068.667,"body":"that you're asking questions to versus"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2068.727,"endTime":2071.367,"body":"the actual implementer of the idea."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2071.787,"endTime":2076.557,"body":"So I think especially for larger teams"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2071.787,"endTime":2076.557,"body":"who are working on more of the 80 to 90%."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2076.557,"endTime":2077.307,"body":"It's mostly done."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2077.307,"endTime":2080.007,"body":"We just have to like"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2077.307,"endTime":2080.007,"body":"add the polish on top."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2080.797,"endTime":2085.567,"body":"the biggest unlock of AI, honestly is"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2080.797,"endTime":2085.567,"body":"just automating the simple, repetitive"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2085.567,"endTime":2089.677,"body":"things that maybe would've taken an"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2085.567,"endTime":2089.677,"body":"hour that now you can get done in five"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2089.677,"endTime":2093.307,"body":"minutes and then you free up that time"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2089.677,"endTime":2093.307,"body":"to go back and do other work that is"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2093.307,"endTime":2095.797,"body":"furthering actually building the product."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2096.157,"endTime":2099.217,"body":"One of the things that we talk"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2096.157,"endTime":2099.217,"body":"about with v0 a lot is this idea"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2099.217,"endTime":2102.637,"body":"of code last so different than."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2102.967,"endTime":2105.157,"body":"A no code or low code tool."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2105.397,"endTime":2108.667,"body":"Code last is yes, we"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2105.397,"endTime":2108.667,"body":"still care about the code."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2108.817,"endTime":2112.747,"body":"We still want to have high quality"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2108.817,"endTime":2112.747,"body":"code that works and compiles"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2112.747,"endTime":2116.107,"body":"and uses the latest tools and"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2112.747,"endTime":2116.107,"body":"is accessible and performant."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2116.497,"endTime":2120.217,"body":"It's just not the first and foremost"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2116.497,"endTime":2120.217,"body":"thing that you're concerned about when"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2120.217,"endTime":2121.687,"body":"you're trying to build a great product."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2121.897,"endTime":2125.827,"body":"It's make it work, make it right and,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2121.897,"endTime":2125.827,"body":"and then make it fast and making it"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2125.827,"endTime":2128.137,"body":"work is a lot of iterations first."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2128.467,"endTime":2129.097,"body":"So."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2129.592,"endTime":2134.602,"body":"I think if you apply that same kind of"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2129.592,"endTime":2134.602,"body":"code, less code last mentality to the"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2134.602,"endTime":2138.472,"body":"entire software development lifecycle,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2134.602,"endTime":2138.472,"body":"yes, you're still gonna write code, it's"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2138.472,"endTime":2141.172,"body":"still gonna have code review, you're"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2138.472,"endTime":2141.172,"body":"still gonna work together on teams."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2141.172,"endTime":2143.152,"body":"Like none of that stuff really goes away."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2143.422,"endTime":2145.462,"body":"It's just your relationship"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2143.422,"endTime":2145.462,"body":"with the code is"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2145.462,"endTime":2146.782,"body":"changing a bit more."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2147.492,"endTime":2147.852,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2147.912,"endTime":2150.012,"body":"Instead of it being the thing you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2147.912,"endTime":2150.012,"body":"have to do first and then really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2150.012,"endTime":2153.522,"body":"lay down a thick foundation with,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2150.012,"endTime":2153.522,"body":"it's now just another ingredient."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2153.867,"endTime":2154.287,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2154.582,"endTime":2155.882,"body":"And there's also different."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2156.657,"endTime":2158.547,"body":"You know, caveats always apply."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2158.637,"endTime":2164.877,"body":"If you're working on mission critical"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2158.637,"endTime":2164.877,"body":"production software that handles payments,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2164.877,"endTime":2168.537,"body":"like you're probably not vibe coding out"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2164.877,"endTime":2168.537,"body":"AI generated code there, you're probably"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2168.578,"endTime":2169.428,"body":"hopefully not."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2169.707,"endTime":2172.137,"body":"particular about"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2169.707,"endTime":2172.137,"body":"the code that gets shipped."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2172.167,"endTime":2175.437,"body":"You have multiple reviews, you"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2172.167,"endTime":2175.437,"body":"have lots of processes in place."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2175.587,"endTime":2179.237,"body":"You have testing, you have, multiple"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2175.587,"endTime":2179.237,"body":"stages where you're validating"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2179.237,"endTime":2180.887,"body":"changes before it actually goes live."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2181.277,"endTime":2182.477,"body":"But I think."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2183.227,"endTime":2186.797,"body":"Often when I talk to people about"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2183.227,"endTime":2186.797,"body":"this, they think there's some kind"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2186.797,"endTime":2192.137,"body":"of inherent, like either or of"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2186.797,"endTime":2192.137,"body":"either you can use AI or you can't."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2192.467,"endTime":2195.797,"body":"And what I found is even in"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2192.467,"endTime":2195.797,"body":"those mission critical production"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2195.797,"endTime":2199.507,"body":"workflows, AI can still help me"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2195.797,"endTime":2199.507,"body":"generate a bunch of unit tests."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2199.627,"endTime":2202.567,"body":"I'm still gonna validate and make"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2199.627,"endTime":2202.567,"body":"sure the tests are right, but it's"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2202.567,"endTime":2205.957,"body":"helping me just move quicker on what"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2202.567,"endTime":2205.957,"body":"I already know that I need to do."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2206.437,"endTime":2211.912,"body":"Now, the biggest objection of AI generated"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2206.437,"endTime":2211.912,"body":"tools in general that I do strongly agree"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2211.912,"endTime":2217.042,"body":"with that I don't think anybody has really"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2211.912,"endTime":2217.042,"body":"figured out is what do you do about the"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2217.372,"endTime":2221.992,"body":"newer, I don't even know if I would call"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2217.372,"endTime":2221.992,"body":"them developers, but the people who are"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2221.992,"endTime":2228.622,"body":"just getting into learning how to output"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2221.992,"endTime":2228.622,"body":"code, how do you help them get over the"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2228.712,"endTime":2234.202,"body":"compiler errors, the stack traces, the"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2228.712,"endTime":2234.202,"body":"debugging, like, I don't know if that's"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2234.232,"endTime":2238.192,"body":"what you were thinking in terms of the"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2234.232,"endTime":2238.192,"body":"80 to 90%, but like the rest of the job."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2238.252,"endTime":2241.402,"body":"I think the tooling there"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2238.252,"endTime":2241.402,"body":"in the ecosystem is still."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2241.592,"endTime":2242.642,"body":"Super early."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2242.702,"endTime":2243.512,"body":"I have confidence."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2243.567,"endTime":2244.467,"body":"it will get better."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2244.467,"endTime":2246.237,"body":"We will get tools that make that easier."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2246.357,"endTime":2248.067,"body":"It's just not, we're not there yet."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2249.028,"endTime":2249.448,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2249.548,"endTime":2253.568,"body":"it's like solving those harder problems"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2249.548,"endTime":2253.568,"body":"are almost more like dealing with AI"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2253.568,"endTime":2257.288,"body":"as in a consultant level, you're posing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2253.568,"endTime":2257.288,"body":"a high level thesis about what you've"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2257.288,"endTime":2258.608,"body":"built and about what it could do."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2258.608,"endTime":2261.683,"body":"And then really taking a deeper"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2258.608,"endTime":2261.683,"body":"look at are there changes we"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2261.683,"endTime":2263.018,"body":"need to make to account for that?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2263.148,"endTime":2265.828,"body":"is this infrastructure really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2263.148,"endTime":2265.828,"body":"going to, accommodate it?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2266.048,"endTime":2267.488,"body":"it's like you're asking a, a different."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2267.583,"endTime":2268.843,"body":"level of questions."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2268.843,"endTime":2272.863,"body":"And like you said, that tooling is still"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2268.843,"endTime":2272.863,"body":"early, people are still figuring it out."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2272.863,"endTime":2275.863,"body":"But what's important is that zero"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2272.863,"endTime":2275.863,"body":"to one is getting lightning fast"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2275.863,"endTime":2278.773,"body":"as you're, as you're calling out,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2275.863,"endTime":2278.773,"body":"which is opening a lot of doors."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2278.891,"endTime":2282.101,"body":"And another topic I just wanna touch"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2278.891,"endTime":2282.101,"body":"on because I know this is really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2282.101,"endTime":2283.831,"body":"top of mind for you, is about."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2283.841,"endTime":2287.951,"body":"You know, opening roles right now and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2283.841,"endTime":2287.951,"body":"hiring engineers and actually building"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2287.951,"endTime":2291.561,"body":"out, engineering teams, these product"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2287.951,"endTime":2291.561,"body":"engineers, as you put it earlier, in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2291.561,"endTime":2294.811,"body":"our conversation, and, and something"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2291.561,"endTime":2294.811,"body":"you called out to me in our chat is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2294.811,"endTime":2297.631,"body":"that you recently opened a role that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2294.811,"endTime":2297.631,"body":"got like over a thousand applicants."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2297.631,"endTime":2300.372,"body":"Like you're flooded with people"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2297.631,"endTime":2300.372,"body":"who wanted to work at Vercel,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2300.391,"endTime":2301.411,"body":"which, you know, makes sense."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2301.411,"endTime":2304.831,"body":"Vercel's a, a, a global name"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2301.411,"endTime":2304.831,"body":"in terms of its presence."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2304.831,"endTime":2307.061,"body":"And, I wanted to un, I wanted to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2304.831,"endTime":2307.061,"body":"kind of like, dig into that a little"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2307.061,"endTime":2308.681,"body":"bit, learn about your experience."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2308.901,"endTime":2311.631,"body":"what are like some early ways"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2308.901,"endTime":2311.631,"body":"you're re-approaching the hiring"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2311.631,"endTime":2313.401,"body":"process in like an AI era."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2313.988,"endTime":2319.478,"body":"So my biggest AI"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2313.988,"endTime":2319.478,"body":"hot take that, it spans across"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2319.478,"endTime":2321.698,"body":"multiple different categories."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2322.628,"endTime":2328.478,"body":"The best practices from pre AI still"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2322.628,"endTime":2328.478,"body":"matter, and they're actually more"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2328.478,"endTime":2331.448,"body":"important than ever in a post AI world."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2331.828,"endTime":2333.658,"body":"So, me explain."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2333.928,"endTime":2334.108,"body":"With"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2334.509,"endTime":2334.629,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2334.918,"endTime":2338.218,"body":"before ai, it"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2334.918,"endTime":2338.218,"body":"was really like referrals were"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2338.218,"endTime":2340.048,"body":"your best source of candidates."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2340.078,"endTime":2341.008,"body":"They always were."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2341.038,"endTime":2343.588,"body":"That was your highest, you"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2341.038,"endTime":2343.588,"body":"know, highest quality pipeline"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2343.588,"endTime":2345.238,"body":"versus just inbound applicants."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2346.348,"endTime":2347.248,"body":"still true."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2347.368,"endTime":2349.978,"body":"It's actually more true"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2347.368,"endTime":2349.978,"body":"now than ever before."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2350.248,"endTime":2354.028,"body":"And hiring is one category where,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2350.248,"endTime":2354.028,"body":"where it works, but that also applies"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2354.028,"endTime":2357.688,"body":"across so many different things that"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2354.028,"endTime":2357.688,"body":"I've just been reusing that for."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2358.048,"endTime":2360.748,"body":"I don't know, 15 different"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2358.048,"endTime":2360.748,"body":"categories, but yeah."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2360.748,"endTime":2363.978,"body":"Let's talk about hiring because it"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2360.748,"endTime":2363.978,"body":"is very interesting how the landscape"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2363.978,"endTime":2366.048,"body":"has changed a lot simultaneously."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2366.048,"endTime":2367.038,"body":"A couple things have happened."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2367.038,"endTime":2370.308,"body":"One, AI tools make it super easy to."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2371.253,"endTime":2373.833,"body":"Apply to just thousands of jobs."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2373.893,"endTime":2376.803,"body":"Like of course before you could"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2373.893,"endTime":2376.803,"body":"go through and click apply and,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2376.863,"endTime":2379.983,"body":"you know, connect your LinkedIn"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2376.863,"endTime":2379.983,"body":"and submit a job application."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2379.983,"endTime":2380.913,"body":"And that was great."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2380.913,"endTime":2384.873,"body":"But you were still limited by human"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2380.913,"endTime":2384.873,"body":"throughput, AI automation, browser"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2384.873,"endTime":2388.663,"body":"automation, using an IDE to like create"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2384.873,"endTime":2388.663,"body":"a little script that does it like"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2388.813,"endTime":2392.113,"body":"much more accessible now, which means"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2388.813,"endTime":2392.113,"body":"that you do see people, especially"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2392.113,"endTime":2396.613,"body":"for technical roles, that spam apply"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2392.113,"endTime":2396.613,"body":"to thousands and thousands of roles."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2396.963,"endTime":2397.653,"body":"which."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2398.478,"endTime":2405.018,"body":"On one hand, on like a human level, I can"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2398.478,"endTime":2405.018,"body":"empathize with wanting a job and wanting"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2405.018,"endTime":2407.298,"body":"to do whatever it takes to get that job."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2407.958,"endTime":2415.128,"body":"think my advice to people if they"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2407.958,"endTime":2415.128,"body":"were in that situation is, I think you"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2415.128,"endTime":2419.118,"body":"have the right feeling, but that's not"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2415.128,"endTime":2419.118,"body":"the right solution to that feeling."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2419.398,"endTime":2421.228,"body":"the spray and pray approach,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2421.679,"endTime":2421.969,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2422.338,"endTime":2423.898,"body":"what I would recommend is."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2424.533,"endTime":2430.233,"body":"For those people, what I've found"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2424.533,"endTime":2430.233,"body":"and the type of cold emails or cold,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2430.453,"endTime":2435.553,"body":"outbound to me that I get, that I, I feel"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2430.453,"endTime":2435.553,"body":"more interested in and more likely to"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2435.553,"endTime":2442.123,"body":"respond to that I've seen work for other"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2435.553,"endTime":2442.123,"body":"people is very personalized, concise,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2443.803,"endTime":2446.743,"body":"interesting content, and you can't."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2447.343,"endTime":2449.893,"body":"Really use AI to send that."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2449.953,"endTime":2453.373,"body":"You can maybe use AI to help you"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2449.953,"endTime":2453.373,"body":"refine it and edit it and give you"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2453.373,"endTime":2458.983,"body":"ideas, but ultimately what I want to"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2453.373,"endTime":2458.983,"body":"know is that this person really cares."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2458.983,"endTime":2464.803,"body":"They took time to craft"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2458.983,"endTime":2464.803,"body":"something intentional thoughtful."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2465.808,"endTime":2468.718,"body":"Ideally have brought something"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2465.808,"endTime":2468.718,"body":"to the table that has a hook."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2468.718,"endTime":2469.858,"body":"it's got my interest."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2469.858,"endTime":2473.488,"body":"I'm like, wow, look at this"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2469.858,"endTime":2473.488,"body":"thing that this person built."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2474.378,"endTime":2477.138,"body":"they didn't try to send a 25 page memo."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2477.168,"endTime":2478.488,"body":"They said, Hey, I built this thing."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2478.728,"endTime":2481.608,"body":"You might find it very interesting"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2478.728,"endTime":2481.608,"body":"if you wanna hire people"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2481.608,"endTime":2483.018,"body":"who build things like this."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2483.288,"endTime":2489.018,"body":"Like sure, there is no shortage of"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2483.288,"endTime":2489.018,"body":"hiring to be done for great builders."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2489.288,"endTime":2491.028,"body":"If you can build great products."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2491.478,"endTime":2495.048,"body":"you're gonna have a great time and getting"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2491.478,"endTime":2495.048,"body":"employed at a bunch of different places,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2495.228,"endTime":2500.178,"body":"especially if you sweat the details and"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2495.228,"endTime":2500.178,"body":"you really care about making something"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2500.178,"endTime":2504.468,"body":"that's, you know, not just good but great,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2500.178,"endTime":2504.468,"body":"and not just great, but exceptional."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2505.008,"endTime":2506.538,"body":"so that would be my advice for that."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2507.055,"endTime":2511.135,"body":"the other thing is that I often"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2507.055,"endTime":2511.135,"body":"see, even if maybe you don't"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2511.225,"endTime":2512.635,"body":"apply to a thousand jobs with ai."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2513.355,"endTime":2518.59,"body":"Maybe only applying to 10, but you're"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2513.355,"endTime":2518.59,"body":"using AI to like generate your cover"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2518.59,"endTime":2521.56,"body":"letter or generate and update your resume."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2522.16,"endTime":2528.94,"body":"for a hiring manager who's looking at tens"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2522.16,"endTime":2528.94,"body":"or hundreds or thousands of resumes, who's"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2528.94,"endTime":2533.35,"body":"also using tools that are helping them"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2528.94,"endTime":2533.35,"body":"kind of refine and focus in on the highest"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2533.35,"endTime":2536.41,"body":"quality ones, it is alarmingly obvious."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2536.44,"endTime":2537.55,"body":"If you've used ai,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2538.571,"endTime":2538.861,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2539.2,"endTime":2541.93,"body":"if you just take the"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2539.2,"endTime":2541.93,"body":"output and you don't really change it."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2542.311,"endTime":2547.438,"body":"There's an increasing number of signals"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2542.311,"endTime":2547.438,"body":"that I'm sure will only go up that say,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2547.468,"endTime":2549.358,"body":"okay, this is probably AI generated."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2549.448,"endTime":2553.528,"body":"It started with delve, you know,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2549.448,"endTime":2553.528,"body":"ChatGPT would output the word"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2553.528,"endTime":2555.148,"body":"delve every five sentences."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2555.298,"endTime":2556.048,"body":"Apparently now"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2556.048,"endTime":2556.268,"body":"it's"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2556.358,"endTime":2557.698,"body":"em Dashes."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2557.698,"endTime":2557.938,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2558.084,"endTime":2558.654,"body":"Oh yes."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2558.714,"endTime":2560.074,"body":"It was always em dashes"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2560.713,"endTime":2563.383,"body":"So that, that one"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2560.713,"endTime":2563.383,"body":"I'm a little sad about because"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2563.383,"endTime":2564.823,"body":"I kind of like them and now"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2565.074,"endTime":2565.524,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2565.633,"endTime":2566.773,"body":"an AI when I use 'em."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2566.873,"endTime":2567.293,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2567.402,"endTime":2569.742,"body":"kind of be aware of the"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2567.402,"endTime":2569.742,"body":"zeitgeist there and what's changing?"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2569.922,"endTime":2574.562,"body":"There's more words to, what you"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2569.922,"endTime":2574.562,"body":"really want is, again, a consultant."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2574.982,"endTime":2577.772,"body":"You can use AI to say, critique my resume."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2578.222,"endTime":2578.742,"body":"critique"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2578.762,"endTime":2580.232,"body":"my cover letter, critique my"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2580.232,"endTime":2580.692,"body":"outbound"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2580.692,"endTime":2581.882,"body":"email"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2580.692,"endTime":2581.882,"body":"What could I do better?"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2581.882,"endTime":2583.192,"body":"Could I make it more concise?"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2583.812,"endTime":2585.782,"body":"Is there any confusing"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2583.812,"endTime":2585.782,"body":"spelling or grammar?"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2585.782,"endTime":2588.422,"body":"Especially if you're don't have"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2585.782,"endTime":2588.422,"body":"English as a, you know, first"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2588.422,"endTime":2589.802,"body":"language, if it's English as a second"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2589.802,"endTime":2590.272,"body":"language"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2590.652,"endTime":2593.412,"body":"you can use that"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2590.652,"endTime":2593.412,"body":"to help refine and curate."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2593.892,"endTime":2598.782,"body":"But if you just take the raw output"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2593.892,"endTime":2598.782,"body":"from an AI model and send it over, your"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2598.782,"endTime":2600.282,"body":"application will probably get passed."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2600.834,"endTime":2603.084,"body":"Yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2600.834,"endTime":2603.084,"body":"that's the key takeaway here."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2603.134,"endTime":2606.734,"body":"it's such a useful tool for kinda"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2603.134,"endTime":2606.734,"body":"like, almost like rubber ducking your"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2606.734,"endTime":2608.594,"body":"resume or whatever you're making."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2608.804,"endTime":2612.014,"body":"Like you could tell it to take the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2608.804,"endTime":2612.014,"body":"role of the person that you're going"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2612.014,"endTime":2615.484,"body":"to send it to and ask, the kind of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2612.014,"endTime":2615.484,"body":"questions that they might ask you,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2615.484,"endTime":2617.344,"body":"and it kind of helps you refine."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2617.614,"endTime":2620.134,"body":"It's useful to use a tool like that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2617.614,"endTime":2620.134,"body":"in what you've called out almost like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2620.134,"endTime":2623.824,"body":"A private loop in order to iterate"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2620.134,"endTime":2623.824,"body":"and get that really good version"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2623.824,"endTime":2625.084,"body":"of yourself that you can share."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2625.314,"endTime":2628.254,"body":"I like how you called out too, that,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2625.314,"endTime":2628.254,"body":"the things that mattered most in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2628.254,"endTime":2630.084,"body":"hiring, they matter even more now."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2630.084,"endTime":2631.074,"body":"I completely agree."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2631.224,"endTime":2635.154,"body":"When I get a message, I can tell when"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2631.224,"endTime":2635.154,"body":"it's AI generated versus when it's not."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2635.304,"endTime":2637.884,"body":"I can tell when it's a short, sweet,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2635.304,"endTime":2637.884,"body":"personal message from someone."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2637.884,"endTime":2640.374,"body":"Some, something that I like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2637.884,"endTime":2640.374,"body":"to do is even if I'm going to."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2640.624,"endTime":2643.904,"body":"Use, an LLM to help me like craft"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2640.624,"endTime":2643.904,"body":"a message or prepare something."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2643.904,"endTime":2646.334,"body":"I love to go in and then"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2643.904,"endTime":2646.334,"body":"like wreck it as a human."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2646.334,"endTime":2649.064,"body":"Like let's put some lowercase letters"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2646.334,"endTime":2649.064,"body":"at the front of some of these sentences."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2649.164,"endTime":2650.664,"body":"why does this, I need to be capitalized?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2650.714,"endTime":2652.844,"body":"Uh, sign it off with a funny"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2650.714,"endTime":2652.844,"body":"thing and drop a few emojis in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2652.844,"endTime":2654.314,"body":"it that the LLM wouldn't use."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2654.314,"endTime":2656.954,"body":"not an emoji that corresponds"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2654.314,"endTime":2656.954,"body":"with a word it loves, but"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2656.954,"endTime":2658.124,"body":"like one of those obscure ones"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2658.364,"endTime":2667.034,"body":"my take here is if"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2658.364,"endTime":2667.034,"body":"the best use of AI is, if I actually"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2667.394,"endTime":2670.514,"body":"thought that it was written by"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2667.394,"endTime":2670.514,"body":"a human, but it actually was ai."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2671.755,"endTime":2672.175,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2672.229,"endTime":2677.539,"body":"if you have figured out"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2672.229,"endTime":2677.539,"body":"your AI curation loop and your edit loop,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2677.629,"endTime":2682.579,"body":"where let's say 80% of the content was AI"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2677.629,"endTime":2682.579,"body":"generated, but you still brought your own"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2682.579,"endTime":2687.439,"body":"taste and curation and structure that, if"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2682.579,"endTime":2687.439,"body":"you wanna use AI for that, that's great."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2687.619,"endTime":2689.909,"body":"But from my perspective,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2687.619,"endTime":2689.909,"body":"it still looks like a human"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2689.909,"endTime":2691.649,"body":"crafted it, it's very concise."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2691.775,"endTime":2692.015,"body":"You know,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2692.212,"endTime":2692.569,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2692.873,"endTime":2693.803,"body":"is super intentional."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2693.803,"endTime":2696.443,"body":"You've sweated every single"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2693.803,"endTime":2696.443,"body":"word in the sentence."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2696.743,"endTime":2698.303,"body":"that's the ideal case for me."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2698.603,"endTime":2700.943,"body":"Like I, I still use AI"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2698.603,"endTime":2700.943,"body":"to help with my writing."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2701.223,"endTime":2703.833,"body":"and it's great at helping"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2701.223,"endTime":2703.833,"body":"pick things apart."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2703.953,"endTime":2707.103,"body":"And I love, and I, I continue to"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2703.953,"endTime":2707.103,"body":"take advantage of AI for that."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2707.313,"endTime":2710.788,"body":"It's just you're not done just"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2707.313,"endTime":2710.788,"body":"when you have the first output."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2711.974,"endTime":2712.934,"body":"Yes, exactly."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2713.174,"endTime":2713.954,"body":"I think that's the key thing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2713.954,"endTime":2715.964,"body":"You gotta keep it iterating"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2713.954,"endTime":2715.964,"body":"and you have to make it yours."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2716.024,"endTime":2717.974,"body":"Um, it's a tool, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2718.024,"endTime":2719.304,"body":"you can't send it right off the tool."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2719.304,"endTime":2720.864,"body":"You need to put your personal stamp on it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2721.194,"endTime":2724.614,"body":"And when you talk about sweating the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2721.194,"endTime":2724.614,"body":"details, I think that's really important."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2724.884,"endTime":2726.564,"body":"Like, what are some key things that that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2726.594,"endTime":2727.884,"body":"Make a candidate stand out."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2727.884,"endTime":2730.524,"body":"Once they get past this, like, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2727.884,"endTime":2730.524,"body":"know, they, they're through the door."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2730.524,"endTime":2731.744,"body":"They've got your attention."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2731.984,"endTime":2735.614,"body":"What then about their skillset"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2731.984,"endTime":2735.614,"body":"nowadays really stands out to you."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2736.758,"endTime":2741.288,"body":"Yeah, so for my role"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2736.758,"endTime":2741.288,"body":"specifically, I'm focused on our"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2741.288,"endTime":2743.718,"body":"developer experience teams at Vercel."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2744.303,"endTime":2750.373,"body":"And it's kind of more of a, a niched"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2744.303,"endTime":2750.373,"body":"role than a general generalist engineer."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2750.523,"endTime":2755.093,"body":"So I can talk about what's worked well"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2750.523,"endTime":2755.093,"body":"for my roles, for developer experience."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2755.093,"endTime":2759.083,"body":"There's really three parts that I focus"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2755.093,"endTime":2759.083,"body":"on growing our developer community,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2759.203,"endTime":2762.143,"body":"teaching all the developers in the"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2759.203,"endTime":2762.143,"body":"community through education, and then"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2762.143,"endTime":2766.313,"body":"documenting how our systems work, whether"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2762.143,"endTime":2766.313,"body":"that's API reference or just tutorials."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2766.658,"endTime":2774.908,"body":"the type of engineers who work on those"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2766.658,"endTime":2774.908,"body":"type of teams generally have some public"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2775.298,"endTime":2779.528,"body":"track record of their work, and if"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2775.298,"endTime":2779.528,"body":"they don't, it's usually a red flag."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2779.578,"endTime":2780.988,"body":"So my advice to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2781.134,"endTime":2781.135,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2781.468,"endTime":2785.188,"body":"looking to get into this"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2781.468,"endTime":2785.188,"body":"type of work is you should work in public."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2785.248,"endTime":2788.668,"body":"You should share what you're doing"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2785.248,"endTime":2788.668,"body":"online, whether that's code you're"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2788.668,"endTime":2793.118,"body":"writing, whether that's articles"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2788.668,"endTime":2793.118,"body":"that you've crafted, videos you've"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2793.118,"endTime":2797.998,"body":"made, ideas that you have, V zero"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2793.118,"endTime":2797.998,"body":"generations and apps that you shipped."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2798.478,"endTime":2799.468,"body":"All of that is great."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2799.828,"endTime":2803.518,"body":"What it does is, I get a resume"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2799.828,"endTime":2803.518,"body":"and I'm like, oh, this person seems"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2803.518,"endTime":2807.508,"body":"interesting, I will go Google their"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2803.518,"endTime":2807.508,"body":"name or I will click on their portfolio"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2807.508,"endTime":2809.698,"body":"link that they include in their resume."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2810.088,"endTime":2814.198,"body":"in the ideal case, I go out to their"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2810.088,"endTime":2814.198,"body":"portfolio, I learn a bit more about them."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2814.318,"endTime":2816.748,"body":"I read some of the things"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2814.318,"endTime":2816.748,"body":"that they've added to their"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2816.748,"endTime":2818.248,"body":"blog or some of their posts."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2818.308,"endTime":2821.258,"body":"Maybe they have a newsletter and I"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2818.308,"endTime":2821.258,"body":"read that, they have a link to the"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2821.258,"endTime":2822.908,"body":"code or the apps that they've built."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2822.908,"endTime":2825.008,"body":"I'll go look at the code"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2822.908,"endTime":2825.008,"body":"or I'll go try the apps."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2825.218,"endTime":2827.828,"body":"If I try out one of the apps,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2825.218,"endTime":2827.828,"body":"like a side project and."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2828.173,"endTime":2829.703,"body":"It just feels really good."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2829.703,"endTime":2831.623,"body":"Like it's so super high quality."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2831.623,"endTime":2835.223,"body":"The design is nice, like the, they've"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2831.623,"endTime":2835.223,"body":"added these little details that"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2835.523,"endTime":2839.273,"body":"nobody would do unless they really"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2835.523,"endTime":2839.273,"body":"cared about making something special."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2840.053,"endTime":2841.373,"body":"get interested, I get excited."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2841.373,"endTime":2844.313,"body":"I'm like, okay, this person really"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2841.373,"endTime":2844.313,"body":"cares about what they're doing."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2844.313,"endTime":2845.273,"body":"They care about the craft."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2845.273,"endTime":2848.213,"body":"They care about, you know,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2845.273,"endTime":2848.213,"body":"making something that stands out."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2848.873,"endTime":2851.933,"body":"And they're bringing the"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2848.873,"endTime":2851.933,"body":"world along for that journey."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2851.933,"endTime":2855.383,"body":"They're making a name for"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2851.933,"endTime":2855.383,"body":"themselves on the internet archive."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2855.613,"endTime":2860.113,"body":"that is a much higher signal for"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2855.613,"endTime":2860.113,"body":"me than a specific employer or a"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2860.113,"endTime":2862.753,"body":"specific bullet point on a resume."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2863.353,"endTime":2872.233,"body":"And honestly, like I've, seen good and bad"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2863.353,"endTime":2872.233,"body":"from the biggest tech cos to the smallest"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2872.233,"endTime":2873.973,"body":"startups and everywhere in between."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2874.183,"endTime":2877.863,"body":"So It's hard to index on"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2874.183,"endTime":2877.863,"body":"a specific employer name."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2878.193,"endTime":2882.993,"body":"Generally, at least for myself,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2878.193,"endTime":2882.993,"body":"I'm biased more towards like"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2882.993,"endTime":2885.303,"body":"small to medium sized companies."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2885.513,"endTime":2889.143,"body":"I just find that, there's nothing"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2885.513,"endTime":2889.143,"body":"necessarily wrong with working"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2889.143,"endTime":2891.243,"body":"at like the major tech companies."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2891.633,"endTime":2895.473,"body":"It's just often I think when you"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2891.633,"endTime":2895.473,"body":"go there, you get indoctrinated"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2895.473,"endTime":2900.213,"body":"into this way of working that is"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2895.473,"endTime":2900.213,"body":"sometimes hard to eject out of."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2900.859,"endTime":2901.079,"body":"Mm."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2901.158,"endTime":2904.158,"body":"when I interview folks who"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2901.158,"endTime":2904.158,"body":"spent, you know, a decent chunk of time"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2904.158,"endTime":2909.058,"body":"at the Googles or Metas of the world,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2904.158,"endTime":2909.058,"body":"I'm trying to understand, are you excited"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2909.058,"endTime":2914.378,"body":"about and interested in going into the"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2909.058,"endTime":2914.378,"body":"world of you have, a 10th of the team size"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2914.378,"endTime":2918.518,"body":"and you don't have that dedicated internal"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2914.378,"endTime":2918.518,"body":"tool that's very, very powerful that,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2918.568,"endTime":2920.008,"body":"a team of hundreds of engineers built."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2920.058,"endTime":2921.198,"body":"You don't have that anymore."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2921.948,"endTime":2923.718,"body":"you still excited about doing that?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2924.219,"endTime":2924.509,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2924.618,"endTime":2926.118,"body":"more on"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2924.618,"endTime":2926.118,"body":"the like content side."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2926.118,"endTime":2926.478,"body":"It's like."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2926.883,"endTime":2930.663,"body":"There, there isn't a video editor,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2926.883,"endTime":2930.663,"body":"you know, there isn't another person"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2930.663,"endTime":2932.163,"body":"coming to do this work for you."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2932.163,"endTime":2934.233,"body":"it's you, you're kind"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2932.163,"endTime":2934.233,"body":"of doing it end to end."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2934.233,"endTime":2936.303,"body":"Are you excited by that"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":2934.233,"endTime":2936.303,"body":"or is that kind of scary?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2937.078,"endTime":2939.958,"body":"so the journey that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2937.078,"endTime":2939.958,"body":"you've described, I really relate to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2939.958,"endTime":2942.958,"body":"it 'cause it's kind of like matches"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2939.958,"endTime":2942.958,"body":"my own journey of coming into tech."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2943.065,"endTime":2946.965,"body":"I had a totally non-traditional journey"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2943.065,"endTime":2946.965,"body":"and I started by building in the open"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2947.025,"endTime":2948.855,"body":"and building an open source communities."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2949.135,"endTime":2951.895,"body":"just kind of hacking around"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2949.135,"endTime":2951.895,"body":"with things and sharing it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2951.925,"endTime":2955.315,"body":"And over time you build a collection of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2951.925,"endTime":2955.315,"body":"stuff that's very personalized to you."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2955.315,"endTime":2958.225,"body":"And even maybe it's not, none of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2955.315,"endTime":2958.225,"body":"it's complete and none of it's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2958.225,"endTime":2959.545,"body":"even really all that great, but."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2959.615,"endTime":2963.315,"body":"All of it showcases over time your"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2959.615,"endTime":2963.315,"body":"ability to build skills, to be"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2963.315,"endTime":2964.905,"body":"fascinated by a problem, try to learn it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2964.905,"endTime":2967.485,"body":"I still remember in the first"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2964.905,"endTime":2967.485,"body":"interview that I managed to make all"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2967.485,"endTime":2969.615,"body":"the way through to the CEO round."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2969.615,"endTime":2974.12,"body":"And when I was like really interviewing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2969.615,"endTime":2974.12,"body":"to get into tech, I, I remember going into"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2974.12,"endTime":2978.652,"body":"the call and the CEO had opened up one"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2974.12,"endTime":2978.652,"body":"of the games I had made, like in phaser"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2978.682,"endTime":2981.652,"body":"or something, and was playing it and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2978.682,"endTime":2981.652,"body":"was like asking me questions about it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2981.652,"endTime":2983.422,"body":"And that was his interview"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2981.652,"endTime":2983.422,"body":"and I got that job."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2983.422,"endTime":2987.122,"body":"And so, I really can't stress enough"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2983.422,"endTime":2987.122,"body":"the importance of building in the open"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2987.122,"endTime":2988.821,"body":"about just building vulnerably too."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2988.881,"endTime":2991.461,"body":"Don't feel like you have to hold"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2988.881,"endTime":2991.461,"body":"onto it until it's like perfectly"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2991.461,"endTime":2995.031,"body":"mastered and ready to share, because"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2991.461,"endTime":2995.031,"body":"that, I promise you, as a developer"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2995.031,"endTime":2996.471,"body":"now, that will never happen."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2996.681,"endTime":2997.821,"body":"You need to share it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2997.821,"endTime":2999.771,"body":"and that's how you can really showcase."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2999.786,"endTime":3000.566,"body":"Those skills."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3000.666,"endTime":3003.756,"body":"so everything that you've, kind of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3000.666,"endTime":3003.756,"body":"highlighted about what makes them stand"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3003.756,"endTime":3005.376,"body":"out, that really resonates with me."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3005.499,"endTime":3006.399,"body":"really great call out."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3006.649,"endTime":3010.129,"body":"and so to wrap things up, I,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3006.649,"endTime":3010.129,"body":"I wanted to ask too about, for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3010.129,"endTime":3013.319,"body":"people already, on your team are"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3010.129,"endTime":3013.319,"body":"already kind of using these tools."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3013.482,"endTime":3014.112,"body":"what are some."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3014.367,"endTime":3017.887,"body":"ways that Vercel is thinking about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3014.367,"endTime":3017.887,"body":"upskilling and coaching people that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3017.887,"endTime":3021.547,"body":"are already within an organization"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3017.887,"endTime":3021.547,"body":"to succeed in an AI driven world."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3021.552,"endTime":3024.937,"body":"You, you referenced those engineers"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3021.552,"endTime":3024.937,"body":"that are used to being in the big orgs"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3024.937,"endTime":3026.197,"body":"and having a whole bunch of tooling."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3026.287,"endTime":3029.527,"body":"The same thing can be true within any"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3026.287,"endTime":3029.527,"body":"org that's been around for a while."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3029.527,"endTime":3031.327,"body":"People get used to the way of things."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3031.597,"endTime":3034.687,"body":"So how do you shake things up in Vercel"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3031.597,"endTime":3034.687,"body":"and get people excited about learning?"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3035.213,"endTime":3035.573,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3035.603,"endTime":3038.418,"body":"One of the things we talk a lot"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3035.603,"endTime":3038.418,"body":"about internally at Vercel and,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3038.453,"endTime":3043.163,"body":"and sometimes externally, is this"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3038.453,"endTime":3043.163,"body":"motto of you can just ship things."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3044.058,"endTime":3048.138,"body":"really what we mean by it is you have"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3044.058,"endTime":3048.138,"body":"the agency to control your destiny."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3048.468,"endTime":3050.628,"body":"And that doesn't mean that"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3048.468,"endTime":3050.628,"body":"you have to be a developer."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3050.748,"endTime":3052.278,"body":"It can be anyone at the company."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3052.458,"endTime":3056.268,"body":"You can just ship that blog"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3052.458,"endTime":3056.268,"body":"post about how our system works."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3056.268,"endTime":3060.768,"body":"You can just ship that prototype of an"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3056.268,"endTime":3060.768,"body":"idea for a new product we want to build."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3060.978,"endTime":3064.518,"body":"You can just ship this explainer"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3060.978,"endTime":3064.518,"body":"video talking about how one of our,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3064.668,"endTime":3066.558,"body":"you know, framework APIs works."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3066.558,"endTime":3070.218,"body":"Like you have the agency and the control"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3066.558,"endTime":3070.218,"body":"to actually go and do these things."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3070.398,"endTime":3072.738,"body":"You just have to have the"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3070.398,"endTime":3072.738,"body":"kind of intrinsic motivation"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3072.738,"endTime":3073.998,"body":"to get up and go do it."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3074.238,"endTime":3077.898,"body":"So a, a lot of what I think adapting for."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3078.213,"endTime":3083.493,"body":"A world with extremely powerful AI robots"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3078.213,"endTime":3083.493,"body":"who can just have all of this knowledge"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3083.493,"endTime":3089.373,"body":"of the world easily accessible, is"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3083.493,"endTime":3089.373,"body":"recognizing that what separates you apart"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3089.373,"endTime":3097.413,"body":"from everyone else is your commitment"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3089.373,"endTime":3097.413,"body":"and motivation and relentless pursuit"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3097.413,"endTime":3099.308,"body":"of excellence showing up every day."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3100.263,"endTime":3104.913,"body":"1% better, reflecting on what"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3100.263,"endTime":3104.913,"body":"was good, what was not good."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3105.123,"endTime":3109.923,"body":"Being very truth seeking and feedback"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3105.123,"endTime":3109.923,"body":"to understand, okay, what was, what"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3109.923,"endTime":3111.753,"body":"did I actually not do very well here?"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3111.753,"endTime":3113.133,"body":"And like, please be honest with me."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3113.193,"endTime":3114.813,"body":"And AI is, is great for that too."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3114.813,"endTime":3115.143,"body":"It will"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3115.314,"endTime":3115.554,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3115.563,"endTime":3117.333,"body":"roast you"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3115.563,"endTime":3117.333,"body":"and give you feedback."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3117.643,"endTime":3122.143,"body":"and then taking that, like having"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3117.643,"endTime":3122.143,"body":"this, you know, positive, constructive,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3122.143,"endTime":3125.773,"body":"optimistic view of getting better"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3122.143,"endTime":3125.773,"body":"and, and going into the future"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3125.773,"endTime":3128.533,"body":"and trying to just be a little"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3125.773,"endTime":3128.533,"body":"bit better version of yourself."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3128.833,"endTime":3130.153,"body":"Than you were the day before."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3130.603,"endTime":3133.423,"body":"The way I, I like to think"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3130.603,"endTime":3133.423,"body":"about it is not necessarily a,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3134.323,"endTime":3137.863,"body":"competition, even though competition"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3134.323,"endTime":3137.863,"body":"is sometimes helpful for people."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3137.953,"endTime":3144.413,"body":"For me, it's, it's mostly self, and"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3137.953,"endTime":3144.413,"body":"inward looking where my goal is that"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3144.413,"endTime":3149.993,"body":"the next piece of content that I put"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3144.413,"endTime":3149.993,"body":"out, whether it's a blog code, tutorial,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3149.993,"endTime":3153.743,"body":"video, whatever, the next thing that"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3149.993,"endTime":3153.743,"body":"I put out should be my best work ever."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3154.433,"endTime":3157.013,"body":"And the one after that should"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3154.433,"endTime":3157.013,"body":"be the best one I've ever made."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3157.013,"endTime":3157.673,"body":"I. And after"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3157.739,"endTime":3157.959,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3158.213,"endTime":3159.563,"body":"the best one I've ever made."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3159.623,"endTime":3159.843,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3159.917,"endTime":3160.907,"body":"audacious goal."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3161.087,"endTime":3162.167,"body":"It doesn't always happen."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3162.227,"endTime":3165.347,"body":"Sometimes I miss the mark and I,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3162.227,"endTime":3165.347,"body":"I don't do as well, or sometimes I"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3165.347,"endTime":3167.927,"body":"just accept there was a time crunch"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3165.347,"endTime":3167.927,"body":"and I wanna get this thing out"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3167.927,"endTime":3170.837,"body":"and, you know, I'm happy with the"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3167.927,"endTime":3170.837,"body":"quality given the time constraints."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3171.077,"endTime":3174.077,"body":"But that goal, that vision"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3171.077,"endTime":3174.077,"body":"is still what I want."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3174.077,"endTime":3180.137,"body":"I want to continue to produce stuff that"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3174.077,"endTime":3180.137,"body":"I'm proud of, as if nobody was looking"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3180.137,"endTime":3181.997,"body":"as if I was just doing it for myself."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3182.057,"endTime":3185.657,"body":"Would I rewatch and be like,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3182.057,"endTime":3185.657,"body":"damn, am really happy with that."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3186.137,"endTime":3190.847,"body":"I think if you apply that to everything"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3186.137,"endTime":3190.847,"body":"across engineers, product managers,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3190.847,"endTime":3196.387,"body":"designers, product marketers, anyone else"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3190.847,"endTime":3196.387,"body":"who works on technical products, you can"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3196.387,"endTime":3200.137,"body":"build great teams who are really motivated"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3196.387,"endTime":3200.137,"body":"in building things they care about."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3200.317,"endTime":3201.727,"body":"It starts with caring, I think."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3201.755,"endTime":3202.145,"body":"Love it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3202.175,"endTime":3204.465,"body":"I love, I love your obsession with"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3202.175,"endTime":3204.465,"body":"building and, for going for the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3204.465,"endTime":3206.775,"body":"details and for iterating in the open."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3206.919,"endTime":3207.339,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3207.405,"endTime":3209.175,"body":"has been a really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3207.405,"endTime":3209.175,"body":"eye-opening conversation for me."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3209.175,"endTime":3209.955,"body":"A lot of fun."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3210.015,"endTime":3211.605,"body":"There's been so much in here to unpack."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3211.605,"endTime":3213.761,"body":"You know, Lee, we're gonna have to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3211.605,"endTime":3213.761,"body":"have you back on here in the future"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3213.761,"endTime":3216.891,"body":"to kind of check in on how things"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3213.761,"endTime":3216.891,"body":"are evolving because, even now I'm"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3216.891,"endTime":3218.461,"body":"like, I'm gonna go heck around in v0."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3218.481,"endTime":3219.501,"body":"I'm quite interested."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3219.651,"endTime":3221.841,"body":"But, uh, just to wrap things up."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3221.846,"endTime":3224.696,"body":"I I also wanted to ask, you know,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3221.846,"endTime":3224.696,"body":"where can people go to follow"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3224.696,"endTime":3227.401,"body":"you, learn more about your work"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3224.696,"endTime":3227.401,"body":"and what's going on at Vercel?"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3228.105,"endTime":3228.465,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3228.465,"endTime":3233.385,"body":"Uh, for all things Lee, uh, leerob.com,"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3228.465,"endTime":3233.385,"body":"it's got links to all of my stuff."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3233.575,"endTime":3234.455,"body":"and Vercel.com."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3234.475,"endTime":3239.065,"body":"If you wanna learn more about Vercel"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3234.475,"endTime":3239.065,"body":"v0.dev, if you want to become a vibe"},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3239.065,"endTime":3240.895,"body":"coder and just build your next idea."},{"speaker":"Lee Robinson","startTime":3240.895,"endTime":3242.42,"body":"Um, yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3243.706,"endTime":3244.216,"body":"Amazing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3244.216,"endTime":3246.196,"body":"Well, we'll put those in the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3244.216,"endTime":3246.196,"body":"show notes for our listeners."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3246.196,"endTime":3248.836,"body":"And hey, if you, if you've been"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3246.196,"endTime":3248.836,"body":"listening and you made it this far,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3248.836,"endTime":3250.816,"body":"then clearly you loved this episode."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3250.816,"endTime":3251.686,"body":"I did too."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3251.746,"endTime":3252.676,"body":"It was a lot of fun."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3252.976,"endTime":3256.906,"body":"So be sure to check out the conversation"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3252.976,"endTime":3256.906,"body":"on Substack with our newsletter"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3256.906,"endTime":3258.226,"body":"if you're not already reading it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3258.226,"endTime":3259.726,"body":"We publish this every Tuesday."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3259.726,"endTime":3262.336,"body":"and Lee and I are also gonna"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3259.726,"endTime":3262.336,"body":"continue the conversation online."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3262.336,"endTime":3265.536,"body":"We're both on LinkedIn, so"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3262.336,"endTime":3265.536,"body":"please ping us, reach out to us."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3265.566,"endTime":3267.456,"body":"We'd love to hear what you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3265.566,"endTime":3267.456,"body":"thought about today's chat."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3267.58,"endTime":3268.42,"body":"Until next time."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3268.57,"endTime":3269.62,"body":"That's it for this week's."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3269.62,"endTime":3270.58,"body":"Dev Interrupted."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3270.79,"endTime":3271.3,"body":"See ya."}]}