{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":6.124,"endTime":7.834,"body":"Welcome to Dev Interrupted."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":8.164,"endTime":9.644,"body":"I'm your host, Andrew Zigler."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":9.958,"endTime":11.728,"body":"And I'm"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":9.958,"endTime":11.728,"body":"your host, Ben Lloyd Pearson."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":12.207,"endTime":14.877,"body":"This week we're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":12.207,"endTime":14.877,"body":"talking about open AI's acquisition"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":14.877,"endTime":18.647,"body":"of Windsurf and a new competitor"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":14.877,"endTime":18.647,"body":"to Star Link's satellite internet."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":19.307,"endTime":22.637,"body":"We're also discussing the growing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":19.307,"endTime":22.637,"body":"divide between contributors and managers"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":22.637,"endTime":27.527,"body":"during AI adoption and how folks like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":22.637,"endTime":27.527,"body":"you and me can avoid skill atrophy."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":28.157,"endTime":30.947,"body":"But Ben, we gotta start by"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":28.157,"endTime":30.947,"body":"talking about Windsurf, right?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":31.758,"endTime":33.768,"body":"Yeah, I mean, as"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":31.758,"endTime":33.768,"body":"much as I identify with that skill"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":33.768,"endTime":37.728,"body":"atrophy in the age of ai, we can hold"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":33.768,"endTime":37.728,"body":"off on that one for a moment and talk"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":37.728,"endTime":39.228,"body":"about this big news with Windsurf."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":39.927,"endTime":40.167,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":40.167,"endTime":44.22,"body":"So, um, it's been all over the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":40.167,"endTime":44.22,"body":"news about OpenAI, buying Windsurf"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":44.22,"endTime":46.727,"body":"for a $3 billion valuation."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":46.777,"endTime":51.813,"body":"windsurf is a, a coding assistant tool"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":46.777,"endTime":51.813,"body":"with an IDE, that allows a user to do"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":51.813,"endTime":54.303,"body":"agentic workflows, to build software."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":54.433,"endTime":57.433,"body":"this is, commonly used in a lot of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":54.433,"endTime":57.433,"body":"different environments right now"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":57.433,"endTime":59.203,"body":"by folks experimenting with ai."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":59.453,"endTime":62.688,"body":"you may recognize it as a,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":59.453,"endTime":62.688,"body":"leading competitor to Cursor."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":62.688,"endTime":67.128,"body":"the deal which hasn't closed yet would"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":62.688,"endTime":67.128,"body":"be open AI's largest acquisition to date."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":67.128,"endTime":71.248,"body":"And as you know, OpenAI is not"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":67.128,"endTime":71.248,"body":"shy about its acquisitions."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":71.498,"endTime":75.548,"body":"in the past it bought search and,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":71.498,"endTime":75.548,"body":"database analytics startup rock set."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":75.828,"endTime":80.468,"body":"it's also tried to buy the leading,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":75.828,"endTime":80.468,"body":"Agentic coding, IDE cursor."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":80.563,"endTime":82.033,"body":"Before in the past."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":82.253,"endTime":87.563,"body":"so open AI making this move now acquiring"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":82.253,"endTime":87.563,"body":"Windsurf, getting a stake in the game,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":87.813,"endTime":92.873,"body":"for agentic AI and coding, kind of an"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":87.813,"endTime":92.873,"body":"exciting, development in the space."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":92.873,"endTime":93.923,"body":"Ben, what do you think about it?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":94.429,"endTime":96.799,"body":"you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":94.429,"endTime":96.799,"body":"I'm happy to see competition,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":96.929,"endTime":98.729,"body":"in any tooling in general."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":98.729,"endTime":101.359,"body":"I think it, it's one of the things that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":98.729,"endTime":101.359,"body":"really sets American tech companies"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":101.359,"endTime":103.099,"body":"apart is just how competitive it is."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":103.449,"endTime":105.189,"body":"this I really think is a simple one."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":105.239,"endTime":110.639,"body":"OpenAI, they're just trying to build"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":105.239,"endTime":110.639,"body":"a moat and they have a lot of money."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":111.114,"endTime":114.804,"body":"And in fact, I think this is their attempt"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":111.114,"endTime":114.804,"body":"to buy a moat rather than build it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":114.804,"endTime":115.614,"body":"As a matter of fact."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":116.504,"endTime":118.334,"body":"specifically in the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":116.504,"endTime":118.334,"body":"software development space."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":118.334,"endTime":122.724,"body":"So you mentioned Cursor, it's obvious"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":118.334,"endTime":122.724,"body":"they couldn't get cursor to sell to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":122.724,"endTime":124.464,"body":"them, so they went to the next one."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":124.784,"endTime":129.701,"body":"cursor being like the fastest growing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":124.784,"endTime":129.701,"body":"company in history, based on revenue,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":130.131,"endTime":133.251,"body":"it's gonna be some stiff competition,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":130.131,"endTime":133.251,"body":"I think, in both directions."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":133.311,"endTime":137.511,"body":"You know, neither one of these companies"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":133.311,"endTime":137.511,"body":"really has a strong moat yet, even though."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":137.941,"endTime":142.801,"body":"I think we are getting to the stage now"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":137.941,"endTime":142.801,"body":"where the leaders are starting to sort"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":142.801,"endTime":145.351,"body":"of establish the norms of this space."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":145.351,"endTime":149.131,"body":"You know, when, when I personally,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":145.351,"endTime":149.131,"body":"when I think about agentic coding,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":149.131,"endTime":152.481,"body":"I think about cursor rules and a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":149.131,"endTime":152.481,"body":"lot of the features that they've"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":152.63,"endTime":153.05,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":153.171,"endTime":154.041,"body":"platform and."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":154.516,"endTime":157.909,"body":"you know, everyone's gonna have"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":154.516,"endTime":157.909,"body":"their take on how that stuff should"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":157.909,"endTime":160.849,"body":"work, but right now, cursor's the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":157.909,"endTime":160.849,"body":"one that's out there, sort of leading"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":160.849,"endTime":163.189,"body":"the definitions around all of this."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":163.189,"endTime":166.519,"body":"But with that said, I've, I've heard a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":163.189,"endTime":166.519,"body":"lot of positive things about Windsurf."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":166.569,"endTime":168.639,"body":"I'm gonna have to check"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":166.569,"endTime":168.639,"body":"it out at some point."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":168.709,"endTime":170.759,"body":"I know some people that have"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":168.709,"endTime":170.759,"body":"tried it and have really liked"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":170.759,"endTime":172.349,"body":"it, even people who know cursor."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":172.649,"endTime":175.429,"body":"So, you know, it's just something"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":172.649,"endTime":175.429,"body":"interesting to check out and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":175.479,"endTime":177.484,"body":"I like that we have a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":175.479,"endTime":177.484,"body":"competition in this space."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":178.473,"endTime":180.453,"body":"I totally agree that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":178.473,"endTime":180.453,"body":"the competition has only created"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":180.453,"endTime":181.923,"body":"a better ecosystem of tools."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":182.093,"endTime":183.763,"body":"Um, I've actually tried out windsurf."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":183.763,"endTime":184.723,"body":"I had a lot of luck with it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":184.723,"endTime":186.3,"body":"I think it's a really nice tool."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":186.3,"endTime":189.42,"body":"so I think that there's space for,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":186.3,"endTime":189.42,"body":"you know, multiple players in this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":189.42,"endTime":192.6,"body":"game to create a really great new"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":189.42,"endTime":192.6,"body":"future of development workspaces."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":192.6,"endTime":194.19,"body":"So I'm excited to see what happens."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":195.181,"endTime":195.541,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":195.541,"endTime":200.706,"body":"And from surfing the wind here on earth"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":195.541,"endTime":200.706,"body":"to surfing the solar winds up in space,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":200.836,"endTime":203.915,"body":"let's talk about what Amazon has done week"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":204.389,"endTime":205.979,"body":"wow, what a transition."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":205.979,"endTime":208.349,"body":"So let me launch this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":205.979,"endTime":208.349,"body":"story into orbit for you."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":208.649,"endTime":214.379,"body":"Amazon has launched its first Kuiper"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":208.649,"endTime":214.379,"body":"internet satellites taking on starlink"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":214.379,"endTime":215.999,"body":"in the satellite internet space."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":216.529,"endTime":220.169,"body":"Kuiper, you know, you might"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":216.529,"endTime":220.169,"body":"read it as K-U-I-P-E-R."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":220.359,"endTime":223.209,"body":"it's a Dutch word related to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":220.359,"endTime":223.209,"body":"copper, and it's the name that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":223.209,"endTime":227.229,"body":"Amazon has picked to describe its"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":223.209,"endTime":227.229,"body":"new satellite internet network."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":227.529,"endTime":230.679,"body":"in this space, you know, we all think"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":227.529,"endTime":230.679,"body":"of starlink as the incumbent and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":230.679,"endTime":234.639,"body":"has the predominant mind share when"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":230.679,"endTime":234.639,"body":"people think about satellite internet."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":234.669,"endTime":239.019,"body":"But Amazon is now taking on"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":234.669,"endTime":239.019,"body":"that space and that industry"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":239.079,"endTime":240.939,"body":"head on with their own offering."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":241.239,"endTime":244.509,"body":"And Ben, have you, uh, had any experiences"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":241.239,"endTime":244.509,"body":"with satellite internet before?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":245.02,"endTime":245.23,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":245.23,"endTime":248.06,"body":"Well first of all, I, I'm very"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":245.23,"endTime":248.06,"body":"familiar with the word Kuiper"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":248.08,"endTime":251.26,"body":"because of my 4-year-old who's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":248.08,"endTime":251.26,"body":"obsessed with the solar systems."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":251.89,"endTime":255.16,"body":"I do actually like the name, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":251.89,"endTime":255.16,"body":"for anyone who doesn't know Kuiper, we're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":255.16,"endTime":256.75,"body":"all the cool dwarf planets hang out."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":257.177,"endTime":260.204,"body":"But you know, personally, on one"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":257.177,"endTime":260.204,"body":"hand I'm, just hopeful that we're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":260.204,"endTime":264.384,"body":"not headed towards, the world in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":260.204,"endTime":264.384,"body":"Wally, the animated movie where"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":264.384,"endTime":268.134,"body":"our atmosphere is just littered"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":264.384,"endTime":268.134,"body":"with space junk all over the place."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":268.56,"endTime":271.74,"body":"I like found myself wondering today,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":268.56,"endTime":271.74,"body":"when did we decide to just like, let"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":271.74,"endTime":276.38,"body":"corporations fill up low earth orbit"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":271.74,"endTime":276.38,"body":"with all of these space boats, I don't"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":276.38,"endTime":278.42,"body":"remember that decision ever being made."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":279.38,"endTime":283.02,"body":"Uh, but with that said, more data"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":279.38,"endTime":283.02,"body":"connectivity is a good thing over the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":283.02,"endTime":288.12,"body":"long term, and rural areas really stand"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":283.02,"endTime":288.12,"body":"to benefit the most from this, areas"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":288.12,"endTime":289.98,"body":"that have been left behind by a lot."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":290.335,"endTime":294.175,"body":"Of the benefits of the internet age,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":290.335,"endTime":294.175,"body":"whether that's in the developed world"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":294.175,"endTime":296.005,"body":"or even in the underdeveloped world."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":296.325,"endTime":298.335,"body":"you know, I've already mentioned"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":296.325,"endTime":298.335,"body":"my opinions on competition."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":298.335,"endTime":302.295,"body":"Like I think competition is good"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":298.335,"endTime":302.295,"body":"for services like this, within"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":302.295,"endTime":305.355,"body":"some reason, like there should"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":302.295,"endTime":305.355,"body":"probably be some regulations"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":305.355,"endTime":307.665,"body":"over the use of low Earth orbit."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":307.975,"endTime":312.389,"body":"but I, I've also found myself wondering,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":307.975,"endTime":312.389,"body":"with all the recent antitrust things"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":312.389,"endTime":316.642,"body":"that have been coming down the pipeline,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":312.389,"endTime":316.642,"body":"specifically in the US federal courts."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":317.122,"endTime":322.572,"body":"how long until Amazon becomes under the,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":317.122,"endTime":322.572,"body":"the microscope, for the seemingly vertical"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":322.572,"endTime":324.582,"body":"monopoly that they're beginning to create."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":325.229,"endTime":327.599,"body":"It's definitely"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":325.229,"endTime":327.599,"body":"an interesting competition space."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":328.169,"endTime":333.089,"body":"The idea of the world being enmeshed"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":328.169,"endTime":333.089,"body":"in all of these internet services."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":333.339,"endTime":337.209,"body":"internet reaching the far flings of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":333.339,"endTime":337.209,"body":"the earth and people in rural areas."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":337.209,"endTime":341.889,"body":"Having access to really fast speeds like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":337.209,"endTime":341.889,"body":"that can be really transformative for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":341.889,"endTime":343.539,"body":"a lot of people in a lot of situations."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":343.539,"endTime":347.259,"body":"It could even go as far as to save"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":343.539,"endTime":347.259,"body":"lives or educate people for the future."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":347.259,"endTime":350.689,"body":"So, on the overall, I think it's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":347.259,"endTime":350.689,"body":"going to be a great development for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":350.689,"endTime":353.359,"body":"people, but I agree with you that as"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":350.689,"endTime":353.359,"body":"we launch more things in the orbit, we"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":353.359,"endTime":356.599,"body":"should think about, how we're going to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":353.359,"endTime":356.599,"body":"actually maintain this long term, and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":356.599,"endTime":358.159,"body":"how things are gonna go into orbit."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":358.159,"endTime":362.029,"body":"So if, if you are listening to this and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":358.159,"endTime":362.029,"body":"you have any insights on things entering"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":362.029,"endTime":365.299,"body":"and coming outta low orbit and uh, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":362.029,"endTime":365.299,"body":"want to connect us with somebody who's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":365.299,"endTime":368.749,"body":"maybe even launching things into that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":365.299,"endTime":368.749,"body":"space, we'd love to learn more about."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":368.954,"endTime":372.464,"body":"Those decisions and how things get sent"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":368.954,"endTime":372.464,"body":"up into the sky, because that's a pretty"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":372.464,"endTime":375.494,"body":"cool application of engineering and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":372.464,"endTime":375.494,"body":"there's a lot of technology behind it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":376.055,"endTime":378.845,"body":"Yeah, there, we've"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":376.055,"endTime":378.845,"body":"long held the belief on this show, many"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":378.845,"endTime":383.105,"body":"of us here, that we would love to have"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":378.845,"endTime":383.105,"body":"somebody who has either been in space or"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":383.105,"endTime":386.999,"body":"sent things to space on our show which,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":383.105,"endTime":386.999,"body":"we've talked to people who have been"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":386.999,"endTime":389.369,"body":"adjacent to launching things into space."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":389.419,"endTime":391.909,"body":"but if you are out there as"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":389.419,"endTime":391.909,"body":"somebody who is doing this,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":391.909,"endTime":393.079,"body":"we would love to talk to you."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":393.305,"endTime":396.575,"body":"let's get onto the story about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":393.305,"endTime":396.575,"body":"atrophy in the age of ai."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":396.575,"endTime":401.135,"body":"As somebody who often feels like I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":396.575,"endTime":401.135,"body":"am maybe starting to become dumbed"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":401.135,"endTime":403.295,"body":"down because of my GPT usage."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":403.849,"endTime":407.609,"body":"This article, was full"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":403.849,"endTime":407.609,"body":"of advice and actions you can take to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":407.609,"endTime":410.429,"body":"avoid skill atrophy in the age of ai."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":410.709,"endTime":414.249,"body":"it dives into the reality of critical"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":410.709,"endTime":414.249,"body":"thinking decay and frequent users of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":414.249,"endTime":418.244,"body":"AI tools and folks who are using this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":414.249,"endTime":418.244,"body":"on a day-to-day basis, they're probably"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":418.244,"endTime":420.554,"body":"familiar with this, uh, kind of mentality."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":420.554,"endTime":425.234,"body":"So I really encourage you to check out"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":420.554,"endTime":425.234,"body":"this article on Substack by Addy Osmani."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":425.234,"endTime":427.824,"body":"We're going to include"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":425.234,"endTime":427.824,"body":"it in our news, roundup."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":427.824,"endTime":431.164,"body":"and some things that really stood"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":427.824,"endTime":431.164,"body":"out to me, was about making sure"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":431.164,"endTime":434.434,"body":"you throw yourself into the pit of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":431.164,"endTime":434.434,"body":"cognitive thinking on a regular basis,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":434.434,"endTime":435.838,"body":"and you fight through that struggle."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":435.838,"endTime":439.378,"body":"Um, it gave you a lot of great"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":435.838,"endTime":439.378,"body":"ways to reinject yourself into"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":439.378,"endTime":442.708,"body":"these situations that you might"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":439.378,"endTime":442.708,"body":"be guarding yourself from with ai."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":442.733,"endTime":444.473,"body":"Prevent you from developing skills."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":444.773,"endTime":447.203,"body":"And Ben, what kind of stood out to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":444.773,"endTime":447.203,"body":"you as you read through this article?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":447.909,"endTime":450.239,"body":"Yeah, so,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":447.909,"endTime":450.239,"body":"just a personal anecdote."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":450.239,"endTime":454.529,"body":"Last week I did a little, like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":450.239,"endTime":454.529,"body":"the most like artisanal content"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":454.529,"endTime":456.479,"body":"crafting that I've done in a while."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":456.509,"endTime":460.589,"body":"You know, as somebody who has definitely"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":456.509,"endTime":460.589,"body":"adopted AI for a lot of my workflows."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":460.854,"endTime":462.474,"body":"and that was to prepare a conference talk."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":462.474,"endTime":466.074,"body":"I'm, I'm going to just real quick, I'm"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":462.474,"endTime":466.074,"body":"gonna plug an event that I'm at this week."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":466.374,"endTime":470.214,"body":"Um, I'm in Miami at the Code Remix"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":466.374,"endTime":470.214,"body":"Summit, so if, if you're there, come"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":470.214,"endTime":474.474,"body":"hit me up and let's meet and chat about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":470.214,"endTime":474.474,"body":"AI or anything else under the sun."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":474.994,"endTime":479.944,"body":"I've tried to be more intentional about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":474.994,"endTime":479.944,"body":"this, like, artisanal work, so to speak."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":480.204,"endTime":483.414,"body":"at least like on some sort of regular"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":480.204,"endTime":483.414,"body":"basis, like, you know, once a week"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":483.414,"endTime":488.364,"body":"if I can do something myself without"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":483.414,"endTime":488.364,"body":"making ai the, driving force behind"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":488.364,"endTime":491.514,"body":"it, Another example is, is just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":488.364,"endTime":491.514,"body":"reading articles all the way through."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":491.514,"endTime":494.964,"body":"Like I feel like this has been a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":491.514,"endTime":494.964,"body":"trend really since the internet era."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":494.964,"endTime":498.804,"body":"Like our attention spans have gotten"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":494.964,"endTime":498.804,"body":"so short that it's hard to stay focused"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":498.804,"endTime":502.239,"body":"when you have like a long, in depth"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":498.804,"endTime":502.239,"body":"article and actually read it to the end."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":502.239,"endTime":507.039,"body":"So I read this article all the way to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":502.239,"endTime":507.039,"body":"the end and have been more intentional"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":507.069,"endTime":508.929,"body":"about making sure that I'm doing that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":509.222,"endTime":512.569,"body":"and there were two signs of Overreliance"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":509.222,"endTime":512.569,"body":"in this article that really stood"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":512.569,"endTime":517.365,"body":"out to me because I, I felt them,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":512.569,"endTime":517.365,"body":"the first is like debugging despair."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":517.395,"endTime":521.535,"body":"Like if you're the kind of person that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":517.395,"endTime":521.535,"body":"is just skipping reading error logs"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":521.535,"endTime":526.225,"body":"now and just automatically pasting them"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":521.535,"endTime":526.225,"body":"straight into ai, it could be a sign"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":526.225,"endTime":528.235,"body":"that you're overlying on these tools."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":528.565,"endTime":530.815,"body":"And trust me, I'm super"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":528.565,"endTime":530.815,"body":"guilty of this like."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":531.125,"endTime":535.025,"body":"I've done it plenty of times, but I've"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":531.125,"endTime":535.025,"body":"also recognized how limited it is at"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":535.025,"endTime":537.695,"body":"its ability to do a root cause analysis."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":537.695,"endTime":540.365,"body":"So I never let it just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":537.695,"endTime":540.365,"body":"be the only analysis."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":540.695,"endTime":545.885,"body":"I sometimes let it be the first analysis"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":540.695,"endTime":545.885,"body":"or if I get stuck, help me get unstuck."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":545.935,"endTime":548.155,"body":"But, you know, the sad part is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":545.935,"endTime":548.155,"body":"there's actually a tool I just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":548.155,"endTime":551.335,"body":"have been trying out in the last"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":548.155,"endTime":551.335,"body":"week, a brand new AI powered tool."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":551.335,"endTime":552.935,"body":"And I really like it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":552.935,"endTime":557.205,"body":"But the thing that kind of stinks about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":552.935,"endTime":557.205,"body":"it is it, is like entirely built around"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":557.205,"endTime":559.665,"body":"this concept of like one shot copilot."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":559.665,"endTime":560.18,"body":"Like you,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":560.235,"endTime":560.595,"body":"Mm."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":560.866,"endTime":563.086,"body":"what to do"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":560.866,"endTime":563.086,"body":"and if it doesn't do it, you just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":563.326,"endTime":566.656,"body":"click the button that says fix"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":563.326,"endTime":566.656,"body":"the error until it goes away."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":567.36,"endTime":567.72,"body":"Yeah, no."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":567.72,"endTime":571.86,"body":"I don't wanna be in a situation where I'm"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":567.72,"endTime":571.86,"body":"unable to get my hands on the terminal"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":571.86,"endTime":575.7,"body":"and do the debugging with it, or all"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":571.86,"endTime":575.7,"body":"I can do is just roll the dice on it,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":575.7,"endTime":577.5,"body":"hopefully generating the right command."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":577.59,"endTime":579.69,"body":"That sounds tortuous."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":579.871,"endTime":580.531,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":580.531,"endTime":583.711,"body":"I mean the irony is it you click"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":580.531,"endTime":583.711,"body":"that button enough and some, it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":583.741,"endTime":585.601,"body":"often gets there, you know, it often"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":585.705,"endTime":589.395,"body":"It can, but oftentimes,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":585.705,"endTime":589.395,"body":"and I'm sure folks who've maybe been"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":589.395,"endTime":593.26,"body":"experimenting with this, sometimes it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":589.395,"endTime":593.26,"body":"creates really strange work arounds"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":593.26,"endTime":596.88,"body":"I've had situations where my application"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":593.26,"endTime":596.88,"body":"was giving errors and in trying to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":596.88,"endTime":600.99,"body":"troubleshoot it, it would just change"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":596.88,"endTime":600.99,"body":"arbitrary parameters or things about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":600.99,"endTime":605.73,"body":"the environment to make the error go"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":600.99,"endTime":605.73,"body":"away or seem less critical than it was."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":606.04,"endTime":609.52,"body":"so it's always a good call out to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":606.04,"endTime":609.52,"body":"understand the, patterns that your"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":609.52,"endTime":614.05,"body":"AI is using to solve problems and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":609.52,"endTime":614.05,"body":"that you understand what's going on."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":614.156,"endTime":616.976,"body":"and I mean, even"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":614.156,"endTime":616.976,"body":"cursor can do can have the problem that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":616.976,"endTime":618.871,"body":"you describe like quite frequently."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":619.257,"endTime":621.627,"body":"The, the other thing that really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":619.257,"endTime":621.627,"body":"stuck out to me as a sign of over"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":621.627,"endTime":625.677,"body":"Alliance is losing your ability to do"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":621.627,"endTime":625.677,"body":"architecture and big picture thinking."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":626.037,"endTime":630.147,"body":"So that's like if you're like accepting"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":626.037,"endTime":630.147,"body":"code without really understanding"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":630.147,"endTime":634.257,"body":"the long term sustainability"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":630.147,"endTime":634.257,"body":"and quality risks of that code."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":635.007,"endTime":638.187,"body":"and you know, personally, I've been"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":635.007,"endTime":638.187,"body":"kind of operating onto this theory"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":638.187,"endTime":641.547,"body":"that, you know, a lot of the frameworks"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":638.187,"endTime":641.547,"body":"that have been built for software"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":641.547,"endTime":645.517,"body":"development, we're designed to reduce"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":641.547,"endTime":645.517,"body":"human complexity, like it was designed"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":645.517,"endTime":650.197,"body":"to help humans navigate the difficulties"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":645.517,"endTime":650.197,"body":"of creating software, but we're actually"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":650.197,"endTime":653.707,"body":"entering an era where AI can just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":650.197,"endTime":653.707,"body":"abstract away all of that complexity."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":653.707,"endTime":655.507,"body":"So how much do we actually need?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":655.507,"endTime":658.237,"body":"Like all of these, JavaScript"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":655.507,"endTime":658.237,"body":"frameworks, for example."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":658.537,"endTime":660.307,"body":"So I've gone way back to the basics."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":660.307,"endTime":665.377,"body":"I'm like working back in like HTML, CSS,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":660.307,"endTime":665.377,"body":"vanilla JavaScript, and just seeing."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":665.692,"endTime":671.422,"body":"What I can do to orchestrate and control"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":665.692,"endTime":671.422,"body":"these agentic AI services so what I'm"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":671.422,"endTime":675.202,"body":"kind of getting at is if you can feed"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":671.422,"endTime":675.202,"body":"it strong architecture, like help it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":675.202,"endTime":679.522,"body":"make the right decisions, it can be"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":675.202,"endTime":679.522,"body":"a lot more effective at whatever code"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":679.522,"endTime":683.009,"body":"you need without the use of all these"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":679.522,"endTime":683.009,"body":"dependencies and extra frameworks."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":683.009,"endTime":684.879,"body":"But, we'll see how this experiment goes."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":684.879,"endTime":687.879,"body":"I actually don't know if it will"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":684.879,"endTime":687.879,"body":"be successful in the long term."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":688.52,"endTime":691.55,"body":"Well, one of the best ways"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":688.52,"endTime":691.55,"body":"to get to, a good, solid architecture or"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":691.55,"endTime":696.68,"body":"something that is a high quality document"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":691.55,"endTime":696.68,"body":"that you and a tool can work off of is,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":696.96,"endTime":699.99,"body":"really understanding the fundamentals, one"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":696.96,"endTime":699.99,"body":"of the standout pieces for me from this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":699.99,"endTime":705.326,"body":"article was not using AI to achieve those"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":699.99,"endTime":705.326,"body":"fundamentals, because struggle is good."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":705.666,"endTime":708.306,"body":"and this was a really good reminder"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":705.666,"endTime":708.306,"body":"to me and I think folks who will"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":708.306,"endTime":713.616,"body":"read it, that frustration is a key"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":708.306,"endTime":713.616,"body":"part of learning and frustration is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":713.616,"endTime":717.006,"body":"what enables you to remember, make"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":713.616,"endTime":717.006,"body":"connections that are important."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":717.171,"endTime":721.311,"body":"But also think of solutions and problems"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":717.171,"endTime":721.311,"body":"that maybe you're not anticipating yet."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":721.311,"endTime":723.861,"body":"And humans are still way"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":721.311,"endTime":723.861,"body":"better at this than agents."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":723.861,"endTime":727.731,"body":"So you have to take that role"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":723.861,"endTime":727.731,"body":"when you partner with a tool"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":727.731,"endTime":729.451,"body":"to, do your work in this way."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":729.701,"endTime":734.461,"body":"But speaking of frustration, another"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":729.701,"endTime":734.461,"body":"story recovering is the growing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":734.461,"endTime":738.481,"body":"divide between developers and their"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":734.461,"endTime":738.481,"body":"bosses over how generative AI is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":738.481,"endTime":740.611,"body":"adopted within their organizations."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":740.961,"endTime":743.031,"body":"We're really loving this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":740.961,"endTime":743.031,"body":"piece from Jen Riggins."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":743.091,"endTime":746.608,"body":"It was on LeadDev, uh, in the recent"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":743.091,"endTime":746.608,"body":"week about frustrating divides"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":746.608,"endTime":750.748,"body":"between developers and leaders"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":746.608,"endTime":750.748,"body":"during AI adoption at organizations."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":750.988,"endTime":755.728,"body":"And it arrives at this by taking a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":750.988,"endTime":755.728,"body":"close look at a survey of over 2000"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":755.728,"endTime":758.098,"body":"IT managers and developers last year."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":758.098,"endTime":762.558,"body":"and in the survey leaders listed"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":758.098,"endTime":762.558,"body":"AI is the most important technical"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":762.558,"endTime":766.488,"body":"factor in improving developer"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":762.558,"endTime":766.488,"body":"productivity and satisfaction, and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":766.488,"endTime":771.198,"body":"that's a, a huge surge in mind Share"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":766.488,"endTime":771.198,"body":"for that, that leadership audience."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":771.528,"endTime":776.413,"body":"Meanwhile, only a third of developers"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":771.528,"endTime":776.413,"body":"reported experience seeing any"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":776.413,"endTime":778.843,"body":"significant AI productivity gains."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":778.993,"endTime":783.763,"body":"And so what this survey really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":778.993,"endTime":783.763,"body":"highlights is the divide still between"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":783.763,"endTime":789.223,"body":"leaders and doers on how AI is actually"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":783.763,"endTime":789.223,"body":"impacting their work every day."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":789.493,"endTime":792.918,"body":"And this is a cumulative piece that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":789.493,"endTime":792.918,"body":"has, quotes from folks all across the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":792.918,"endTime":797.038,"body":"developer experience and productivity"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":792.918,"endTime":797.038,"body":"space that speak about this commonly."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":797.038,"endTime":800.388,"body":"It also has a quote from"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":797.038,"endTime":800.388,"body":"yours, truly, in the article."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":800.388,"endTime":802.938,"body":"I really recommend you check it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":800.388,"endTime":802.938,"body":"out because there's so much cool"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":802.938,"endTime":806.448,"body":"advice in there from smart people"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":802.938,"endTime":806.448,"body":"that are talking about this."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":806.628,"endTime":808.338,"body":"And so, Ben, what stood out for you?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":808.776,"endTime":811.012,"body":"first of all, I, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":808.776,"endTime":811.012,"body":"think there are a few quotes from you and,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":811.012,"endTime":814.172,"body":"and it's really great to see that you're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":811.012,"endTime":814.172,"body":"getting the opportunity to take what we're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":814.172,"endTime":818.302,"body":"learning from our community and share"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":814.172,"endTime":818.302,"body":"it with audiences like over at LeadDev."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":818.422,"endTime":820.522,"body":"because, you know, I'm, I'm"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":818.422,"endTime":820.522,"body":"a huge fan of them, that they"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":820.522,"endTime":821.902,"body":"do great work over there, so."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":821.902,"endTime":823.942,"body":"we love being able to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":821.902,"endTime":823.942,"body":"share knowledge over there."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":824.387,"endTime":828.931,"body":"But I think Ori Keren said it best"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":824.387,"endTime":828.931,"body":"when he came on, Dev Interrupted when"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":828.931,"endTime":832.821,"body":"he said that developer productivity"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":828.931,"endTime":832.821,"body":"is going to decline this year."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":833.091,"endTime":836.541,"body":"And I think upper management is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":833.091,"endTime":836.541,"body":"just going to have to accept that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":836.601,"endTime":840.651,"body":"Like there's a lot of disruption that's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":836.601,"endTime":840.651,"body":"happening just across all of knowledge"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":840.651,"endTime":842.871,"body":"work, not just software development."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":843.231,"endTime":848.721,"body":"And there's a lot of adaptation that is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":843.231,"endTime":848.721,"body":"taking place right now to respond to these"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":848.721,"endTime":855.826,"body":"disruptions and adaptation, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":848.721,"endTime":855.826,"body":"rethinking how you accomplish your work."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":856.196,"endTime":860.426,"body":"that all detracts from what"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":856.196,"endTime":860.426,"body":"would conventionally be viewed"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":860.426,"endTime":863.486,"body":"as like productive work for,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":860.426,"endTime":863.486,"body":"for lack of a better phrase."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":863.816,"endTime":867.356,"body":"You know, you're not able to focus"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":863.816,"endTime":867.356,"body":"on shipping new features and,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":867.656,"endTime":871.346,"body":"and moving faster when you're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":867.656,"endTime":871.346,"body":"just legitimately trying to, to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":871.346,"endTime":873.896,"body":"redesign how you complete your work."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":874.091,"endTime":878.711,"body":"But I think there's a couple of traits"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":874.091,"endTime":878.711,"body":"that I'm seeing from organizations who"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":878.711,"endTime":881.501,"body":"are leading the charge with AI adoption."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":881.841,"endTime":886.491,"body":"the first is that they provide really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":881.841,"endTime":886.491,"body":"clear guardrails around AI usage."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":886.841,"endTime":889.151,"body":"that's training on how to properly use it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":889.151,"endTime":893.171,"body":"That's guidance and resources that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":889.151,"endTime":893.171,"body":"help provide context to models that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":893.402,"endTime":896.252,"body":"that make them do the right"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":893.402,"endTime":896.252,"body":"thing rather than hallucinating"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":896.252,"endTime":897.692,"body":"security vulnerabilities."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":898.272,"endTime":899.202,"body":"so that's the first thing."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":899.202,"endTime":904.272,"body":"The second thing is they're giving space"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":899.202,"endTime":904.272,"body":"for early adopters to experiment and share"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":904.272,"endTime":906.072,"body":"learnings with the rest of the company."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":906.402,"endTime":909.432,"body":"So at, at just about any company"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":906.402,"endTime":909.432,"body":"out there, you've probably got a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":909.432,"endTime":913.527,"body":"small percent of your developers"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":909.432,"endTime":913.527,"body":"who like to use new technology."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":913.527,"endTime":914.787,"body":"They like to experiment."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":914.787,"endTime":916.857,"body":"They like to find new ways to do things."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":917.097,"endTime":919.857,"body":"They need to have the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":917.097,"endTime":919.857,"body":"tools to let them do that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":919.857,"endTime":924.417,"body":"And then the, the space to experiment"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":919.857,"endTime":924.417,"body":"and the channels to share those learnings"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":924.417,"endTime":926.577,"body":"back with the rest of the organization."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":927.327,"endTime":931.817,"body":"Developers wanna reap the benefits"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":927.327,"endTime":931.817,"body":"of ai, but the technology just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":931.817,"endTime":933.977,"body":"isn't there for all use cases yet."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":933.977,"endTime":937.547,"body":"So you wanna let the, the people"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":933.977,"endTime":937.547,"body":"who can benefit from it benefit"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":937.547,"endTime":941.597,"body":"today while teaching the people"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":937.547,"endTime":941.597,"body":"who are gonna benefit tomorrow."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":941.627,"endTime":942.887,"body":"You know what to expect."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":943.187,"endTime":946.667,"body":"So, you know, expect productivity"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":943.187,"endTime":946.667,"body":"losses from this disruption is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":946.667,"endTime":947.777,"body":"the point that I'm trying to make."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":948.027,"endTime":951.477,"body":"And just be ready to reap the productivity"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":948.027,"endTime":951.477,"body":"gains that are around the corner."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":951.507,"endTime":954.987,"body":"Like they're starting to show up"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":951.507,"endTime":954.987,"body":"today, um, but they really just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":954.987,"endTime":956.487,"body":"haven't fully manifested yet."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":956.487,"endTime":959.127,"body":"So get your organization"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":956.487,"endTime":959.127,"body":"ready for that future."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":959.505,"endTime":959.685,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":959.685,"endTime":961.695,"body":"So Andrew, who do we"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":959.685,"endTime":961.695,"body":"have on the show today?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":961.927,"endTime":965.617,"body":"Yes, in just a moment,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":961.927,"endTime":965.617,"body":"we're bringing JJ Tang of Rootly on the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":965.617,"endTime":970.327,"body":"pod to talk about creating an engineering"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":965.617,"endTime":970.327,"body":"culture built on customer empathy."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":970.537,"endTime":971.042,"body":"Stick around."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":973.249,"endTime":974.179,"body":"Beyond copilot."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":974.359,"endTime":978.649,"body":"What's next for AI in software development"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":974.359,"endTime":978.649,"body":"is happening on June 4th and fifth."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":978.76,"endTime":982.3,"body":"Join us for a live 35 minute"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":978.76,"endTime":982.3,"body":"panel featuring past podcasts."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":982.3,"endTime":987.61,"body":"Guests from Adnan Ijaz from Amazon Q"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":982.3,"endTime":987.61,"body":"and Birgitta Bockeler from ThoughtWorks,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":987.7,"endTime":989.32,"body":"alongside experts from LinearB."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":989.71,"endTime":992.77,"body":"We'll explore how leading teams"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":989.71,"endTime":992.77,"body":"are going beyond copilot to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":992.77,"endTime":994.63,"body":"experiment with a agentic ai."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":994.745,"endTime":999.63,"body":"Measure real impact and drive"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":994.745,"endTime":999.63,"body":"meaningful DevEx gains registrants."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":999.63,"endTime":1003.56,"body":"Get the full recording plus early"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":999.63,"endTime":1003.56,"body":"access to the DevEx Guide to AI"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1003.56,"endTime":1007.34,"body":"driven software development, packed"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1003.56,"endTime":1007.34,"body":"with tools, prompts, and insights"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1007.34,"endTime":1009.83,"body":"from the 2025 AI developer survey."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1010.28,"endTime":1013.28,"body":"Reserve your spot today and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1010.28,"endTime":1013.28,"body":"stay ahead of the AI curve."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1015.083,"endTime":1018.753,"body":"Hey everyone, for those"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1015.083,"endTime":1018.753,"body":"of us just joining us, today we're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1018.753,"endTime":1020.823,"body":"joined by JJ Tang on the podcast."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1020.823,"endTime":1024.573,"body":"He's the co-founder and CEO"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1020.823,"endTime":1024.573,"body":"of Rootly, and today we're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1024.573,"endTime":1026.053,"body":"tackling some really cool stuff."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1026.113,"endTime":1031.153,"body":"'Cause JJ is at the forefront of incident"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1026.113,"endTime":1031.153,"body":"response automation, helping teams turn"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1031.153,"endTime":1035.843,"body":"chaos into reliability, more importantly,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1031.153,"endTime":1035.843,"body":"the work that he does at Rootly."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1035.843,"endTime":1039.473,"body":"It helps make our world a safer place by"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1035.843,"endTime":1039.473,"body":"automating incident response for things"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1039.473,"endTime":1041.333,"body":"like mission critical infrastructure."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1041.65,"endTime":1044.59,"body":"And today we're gonna dive"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1041.65,"endTime":1044.59,"body":"into how leaders can build with"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1044.59,"endTime":1047.285,"body":"shiny new things like AI safely."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1047.358,"endTime":1053.598,"body":"why customer empathy is kind of an"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1047.358,"endTime":1053.598,"body":"underrated engineering skill and how teams"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1053.598,"endTime":1057.138,"body":"can go beyond just reactive reliability."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1057.318,"endTime":1058.693,"body":"So JJ, welcome to the show."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1059.92,"endTime":1061.21,"body":"Thank you so much for having me."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1061.3,"endTime":1061.85,"body":"After see"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1061.85,"endTime":1062.0,"body":"all"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1062.02,"endTime":1064.72,"body":"the amazing guests you've"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1062.02,"endTime":1064.72,"body":"had, I feel very special to be here."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1065.638,"endTime":1067.455,"body":"Oh no, totally"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1065.638,"endTime":1067.455,"body":"the honors on our end."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1067.455,"endTime":1069.195,"body":"It's really great to have"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1067.455,"endTime":1069.195,"body":"your perspective here."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1069.445,"endTime":1072.025,"body":"like I said, I'm real excited"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1069.445,"endTime":1072.025,"body":"about the topic, so let's just"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1072.025,"endTime":1073.405,"body":"go ahead and jump right on in."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1073.662,"endTime":1075.402,"body":"Right now a lot of companies."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1075.407,"endTime":1078.587,"body":"They find themselves rushing to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1075.407,"endTime":1078.587,"body":"integrate new things and maybe"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1078.587,"endTime":1080.077,"body":"they're not stopping to fully."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1080.077,"endTime":1084.847,"body":"Consider things like reliability,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1080.077,"endTime":1084.847,"body":"trust or usability at scale."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1085.177,"endTime":1089.507,"body":"And JJ, I know you're always thinking"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1085.177,"endTime":1089.507,"body":"about building safely, and not just fast."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1089.537,"endTime":1093.137,"body":"That goes for all things, not just"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1089.537,"endTime":1093.137,"body":"shiny new things with AI in them."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1093.423,"endTime":1097.923,"body":"what are some of the common pitfalls"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1093.423,"endTime":1097.923,"body":"engineering leaders face or fall"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1097.923,"endTime":1100.623,"body":"into when integrating new stuff?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1101.193,"endTime":1103.263,"body":"And how do you think they can avoid them?"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1103.91,"endTime":1104.81,"body":"That's a great question."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1105.25,"endTime":1109.09,"body":"We serve some of the most"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1105.25,"endTime":1109.09,"body":"mission critical businesses."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1109.09,"endTime":1113.33,"body":"We work with companies, such as"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1109.09,"endTime":1113.33,"body":"Dropbox, all the way to Nvidia, but"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1113.33,"endTime":1118.64,"body":"we also have customers, for example,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1113.33,"endTime":1118.64,"body":"in the Nordics, like 911 call centers."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1118.8,"endTime":1124.06,"body":"we work with nuclear energy plants and gas"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1118.8,"endTime":1124.06,"body":"stations, and, we cover the entire gamut."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1124.06,"endTime":1128.98,"body":"So for us to be reliable and secure as"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1124.06,"endTime":1128.98,"body":"a platform becomes incredibly important."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1129.1,"endTime":1131.255,"body":"And one of the principles"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1129.1,"endTime":1131.255,"body":"that we have from engineering."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1131.705,"endTime":1134.975,"body":"Standpoint is we understand we"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1131.705,"endTime":1134.975,"body":"are in the business of doing"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1135.005,"endTime":1136.745,"body":"the boring things, right?"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1137.435,"endTime":1141.125,"body":"When we started building our on-call"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1137.435,"endTime":1141.125,"body":"product, the first thing that we said,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1141.155,"endTime":1143.705,"body":"this has to be immensely reliable."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1143.895,"endTime":1147.585,"body":"so we developed this multi-cloud"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1143.895,"endTime":1147.585,"body":"architecture that no one else in the"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1147.585,"endTime":1150.525,"body":"industry had and what felt like overkill."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1150.525,"endTime":1155.805,"body":"You know, we never really had to use"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1150.525,"endTime":1155.805,"body":"it in, in the purpose that it was built"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1155.805,"endTime":1157.965,"body":"for, but it inspired a lot of trust."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1157.965,"endTime":1162.235,"body":"So I think there's this aspect"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1157.965,"endTime":1162.235,"body":"of functional reliability, and"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1162.235,"endTime":1164.335,"body":"also perceived reliability."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1164.335,"endTime":1166.642,"body":"That also becomes, quite important."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1166.702,"endTime":1172.472,"body":"When we thought about building with"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1166.702,"endTime":1172.472,"body":"ai, we said, privacy and safety"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1172.652,"endTime":1177.272,"body":"becomes the most important thing I"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1172.652,"endTime":1177.272,"body":"think in this world in particular"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1177.272,"endTime":1179.007,"body":"with ai as companies are adopting it."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1179.762,"endTime":1184.112,"body":"If you are a vendor that is building AI"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1179.762,"endTime":1184.112,"body":"into your tooling, you have to understand"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1184.112,"endTime":1187.572,"body":"a lot of the customers that you're"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1184.112,"endTime":1187.572,"body":"selling to and you're serving and that"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1187.572,"endTime":1191.456,"body":"you're caring for are also venturing"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1187.572,"endTime":1191.456,"body":"down this path, at the same time."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1191.576,"endTime":1195.296,"body":"And if both of you view AI as this"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1191.576,"endTime":1195.296,"body":"mysterious black box, neither of"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1195.296,"endTime":1197.176,"body":"you are gonna trust, each other."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1197.176,"endTime":1201.466,"body":"And so I think the onus is on the"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1197.176,"endTime":1201.466,"body":"vendor to be incredibly smart with it."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1201.896,"endTime":1204.356,"body":"The recommendation and"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1201.896,"endTime":1204.356,"body":"the thing that we found."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1205.256,"endTime":1209.193,"body":"To be helpful for us is,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1205.256,"endTime":1209.193,"body":"integrating and building AI into"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1209.193,"endTime":1211.463,"body":"your product is the easy part."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1211.503,"endTime":1216.003,"body":"I think truly understand, understanding"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1211.503,"endTime":1216.003,"body":"the power and also the dangers and"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1216.003,"endTime":1220.778,"body":"pitfalls of AI is the other piece we"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1216.003,"endTime":1220.778,"body":"spend a lot of time on, and so I. Us as"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1220.778,"endTime":1223.868,"body":"a business, we experiment constantly."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1223.928,"endTime":1229.958,"body":"We've developed our own rootly AI lab"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1223.928,"endTime":1229.958,"body":"specifically to tinker right on the"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1229.958,"endTime":1233.078,"body":"bleeding edge of what these technologies"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1229.958,"endTime":1233.078,"body":"can do and what they can't do."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1233.448,"endTime":1237.168,"body":"from there we've been able to"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1233.448,"endTime":1237.168,"body":"formulate our own guardrails and truly"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1237.168,"endTime":1239.748,"body":"understand, what the capabilities are."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1239.748,"endTime":1244.698,"body":"Then conveying that in a truthful and"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1239.748,"endTime":1244.698,"body":"trusted way back to our customer, I think"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1244.698,"endTime":1247.848,"body":"inspires a lot of trust and also for us."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1248.313,"endTime":1253.703,"body":"Then suddenly safety and, privacy"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1248.313,"endTime":1253.703,"body":"becomes a core differentiator"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1253.703,"endTime":1255.203,"body":"that we, that we love."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1255.233,"endTime":1258.953,"body":"And you know, your mileage may"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1255.233,"endTime":1258.953,"body":"vary and I think that's how you go"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1258.953,"endTime":1262.613,"body":"from being this bolt-on AI product."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1262.613,"endTime":1265.463,"body":"Maybe it's a wrapper"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1262.613,"endTime":1265.463,"body":"for some organizations."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1265.463,"endTime":1270.473,"body":"There's nothing wrong with that either"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1265.463,"endTime":1270.473,"body":"to being this AI native company that"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1270.473,"endTime":1273.093,"body":"truly understands, what it's capable of."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1274.236,"endTime":1274.716,"body":"Totally."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1274.716,"endTime":1277.806,"body":"It's more about like having the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1274.716,"endTime":1277.806,"body":"transparency of understanding"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1277.806,"endTime":1281.586,"body":"its impact and what it's supposed"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1277.806,"endTime":1281.586,"body":"to do, what it can do, what goes"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1281.586,"endTime":1283.266,"body":"into it, what comes out of it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1283.716,"endTime":1286.386,"body":"And you know, during that process"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1283.716,"endTime":1286.386,"body":"it's like there's a lot of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1286.386,"endTime":1287.706,"body":"alignment that has to happen."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1287.836,"endTime":1292.066,"body":"How do you think that engineering"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1287.836,"endTime":1292.066,"body":"teams can ensure that the solutions"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1292.066,"endTime":1296.236,"body":"and, you know, shiny new stuff that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1292.066,"endTime":1296.236,"body":"they're using, it actually aligns with"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1296.236,"endTime":1299.086,"body":"their business objectives and it has a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1299.131,"endTime":1300.631,"body":"measurable impact."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1300.881,"endTime":1303.93,"body":"is there a, a pattern that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1300.881,"endTime":1303.93,"body":"you see successful teams kind"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1303.93,"endTime":1305.55,"body":"of follow to achieve this?"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1306.157,"endTime":1310.382,"body":"I think for individual"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1306.157,"endTime":1310.382,"body":"teams it has to be sustained effort."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1310.382,"endTime":1314.522,"body":"I think when you view AI as"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1310.382,"endTime":1314.522,"body":"just a singular feature of your"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1314.522,"endTime":1317.812,"body":"product, then you go back to"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1314.522,"endTime":1317.812,"body":"doing what you were doing before"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1318.365,"endTime":1318.495,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1318.495,"endTime":1318.575,"body":"The"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1318.598,"endTime":1322.365,"body":"peaks and valleys become"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1318.598,"endTime":1322.365,"body":"either very high or very deep and"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1322.365,"endTime":1327.465,"body":"can be quite jarring sometimes what"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1322.365,"endTime":1327.465,"body":"we've done, to ensure that we're"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1327.465,"endTime":1329.295,"body":"constantly thinking this AI first."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1330.195,"endTime":1336.135,"body":"Mindset and how we build sustainably over"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1330.195,"endTime":1336.135,"body":"time and, in intelligent ways through"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1336.135,"endTime":1341.265,"body":"our product is every leader of every"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1336.135,"endTime":1341.265,"body":"function inside of our business we have a"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1341.265,"endTime":1345.345,"body":"biweekly meeting where everyone presents"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1341.265,"endTime":1345.345,"body":"new AI tools that they've been using."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1345.735,"endTime":1348.435,"body":"I would say 80% of them fall short."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1348.485,"endTime":1352.985,"body":"we tried some, automated PR"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1348.485,"endTime":1352.985,"body":"review tools, some QA tools."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1352.985,"endTime":1356.435,"body":"We tried some on the rev ops"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1352.985,"endTime":1356.435,"body":"side that unfortunately didn't"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1356.465,"endTime":1357.605,"body":"work out, but had a lot of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1357.968,"endTime":1359.708,"body":"You just have"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1357.968,"endTime":1359.708,"body":"your proof of concept, just the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1359.708,"endTime":1361.568,"body":"prototype, flexing out the idea."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1362.135,"endTime":1362.675,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1362.675,"endTime":1365.825,"body":"and what that did for us"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1362.675,"endTime":1365.825,"body":"culturally was really important."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1366.155,"endTime":1369.005,"body":"It forced leaders to"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1366.155,"endTime":1369.005,"body":"think in this mindset."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1369.005,"endTime":1373.775,"body":"It also forced us to explore what the"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1369.005,"endTime":1373.775,"body":"latest and greatest was out there,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1373.775,"endTime":1379.055,"body":"and that naturally propagated itself"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1373.775,"endTime":1379.055,"body":"through the rest of the organization."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1379.055,"endTime":1382.415,"body":"So when people talk about AI"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1379.055,"endTime":1382.415,"body":"now, it doesn't feel like a novel"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1382.415,"endTime":1384.755,"body":"concept as if we did two years ago"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1384.755,"endTime":1388.835,"body":"it just feels like a natural"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1384.755,"endTime":1388.835,"body":"extension of our day-to-day workflow."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1388.865,"endTime":1391.775,"body":"I don't think we've gone as far"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1388.865,"endTime":1391.775,"body":"as, you know, maybe Shopify."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1391.775,"endTime":1395.561,"body":"I know they came out with a, a memo"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1391.775,"endTime":1395.561,"body":"recently saying, Hey, you're not allowed"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1395.561,"endTime":1399.131,"body":"to request for head count unless you can"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1395.561,"endTime":1399.131,"body":"prove that AI agents can't do your job."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1399.311,"endTime":1399.731,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1399.803,"endTime":1402.785,"body":"are there yet as a"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1399.803,"endTime":1402.785,"body":"business, but maybe one day."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1403.403,"endTime":1404.783,"body":"Yeah, we"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1403.403,"endTime":1404.783,"body":"talked about that memo."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1404.853,"endTime":1408.123,"body":"on a recent episode actually and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1404.853,"endTime":1408.123,"body":"the picture you're painting here"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1408.123,"endTime":1410.613,"body":"is really helpful because you're,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1408.123,"endTime":1410.613,"body":"you're showing how creating that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1410.613,"endTime":1413.943,"body":"culture of learning, creating that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1410.613,"endTime":1413.943,"body":"space for innovation in a company"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1413.943,"endTime":1416.763,"body":"helps normalize using it as a tool."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1416.763,"endTime":1419.523,"body":"And building understanding of it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1416.763,"endTime":1419.523,"body":"even goes back to your first point"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1419.523,"endTime":1423.193,"body":"about, having the transparency and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1419.523,"endTime":1423.193,"body":"the reliability in what you're doing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1423.373,"endTime":1426.863,"body":"Part of that is, making sure everyone's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1423.373,"endTime":1426.863,"body":"equipped with knowledge and you're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1426.863,"endTime":1429.098,"body":"giving them the space to experiment."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1429.301,"endTime":1432.421,"body":"In that world where they have the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1429.301,"endTime":1432.421,"body":"space to experiment and they're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1432.421,"endTime":1436.361,"body":"trying new things, they're growing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1432.421,"endTime":1436.361,"body":"as a company, it kind of then starts"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1436.361,"endTime":1440.291,"body":"the butt up against maybe traditional"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1436.361,"endTime":1440.291,"body":"ways that people ship products."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1440.321,"endTime":1444.161,"body":"And I wanted to ask about how traditional"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1440.321,"endTime":1444.161,"body":"incident response has, you know,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1444.221,"endTime":1445.811,"body":"typically always been a reactive."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1446.081,"endTime":1450.551,"body":"Process for teams, you know, they wait"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1446.081,"endTime":1450.551,"body":"for something bad to happen and then"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1450.551,"endTime":1453.731,"body":"they get out the fire extinguisher and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1450.551,"endTime":1453.731,"body":"they go find the fire and put it out."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1453.835,"endTime":1456.145,"body":"But Rootly changes that model."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1456.24,"endTime":1459.986,"body":"I want us to understand a little more"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1456.24,"endTime":1459.986,"body":"about how, from your perspective, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1459.986,"endTime":1464.786,"body":"know, what are the key differences between"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1459.986,"endTime":1464.786,"body":"a proactive and a reactive reliability"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1464.786,"endTime":1466.976,"body":"practice, and what does it mean?"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1467.648,"endTime":1470.138,"body":"Yeah, I think that's a"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1467.648,"endTime":1470.138,"body":"perfect way of characterizing it."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1470.198,"endTime":1472.212,"body":"Either it's proactive or reactive."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1472.212,"endTime":1478.102,"body":"And I think it's actually with the"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1472.212,"endTime":1478.102,"body":"unlock of LLMs, can we truly be more"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1478.592,"endTime":1483.192,"body":"proactive now you know, we built a very"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1478.592,"endTime":1483.192,"body":"successful on-call business incident"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1483.192,"endTime":1487.842,"body":"response business that is primarily geared"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1483.192,"endTime":1487.842,"body":"towards helping humans become faster and"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1487.842,"endTime":1490.272,"body":"more consistent at resolving incidents."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1490.272,"endTime":1494.202,"body":"And, you know, the maturity curve where"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1490.272,"endTime":1494.202,"body":"most customers are, that is what they"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1494.202,"endTime":1499.932,"body":"need, but what the future holds with"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1494.202,"endTime":1499.932,"body":"LLMs becomes really interesting because"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1500.182,"endTime":1501.982,"body":"the work that if you think about."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1502.867,"endTime":1506.767,"body":"Your smartest SRE your hardest"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1502.867,"endTime":1506.767,"body":"working, your most, you know, the"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1506.767,"endTime":1511.987,"body":"SRE that's making, 700k a year that"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1506.767,"endTime":1511.987,"body":"has, 20 years of domain knowledge."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1512.287,"endTime":1516.737,"body":"Their ability to recognize patterns,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1512.287,"endTime":1516.737,"body":"their ability to, sift through large"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1516.737,"endTime":1520.667,"body":"amounts of data that are relevant for"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1516.737,"endTime":1520.667,"body":"your business is incredibly powerful."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1520.667,"endTime":1524.777,"body":"And that tribal knowledge is really"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1520.667,"endTime":1524.777,"body":"unlocked by sometimes no one else."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1524.777,"endTime":1528.617,"body":"And this hero mentality starts developing"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1524.777,"endTime":1528.617,"body":"and they start getting burned out."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1529.607,"endTime":1533.027,"body":"And with LLMs, what we can do now is"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1529.607,"endTime":1533.027,"body":"harness everything that they can do,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1533.507,"endTime":1538.577,"body":"then replicate it across hundreds"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1533.507,"endTime":1538.577,"body":"of agents that can simultaneously"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1538.577,"endTime":1539.927,"body":"then do the work for you."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1540.257,"endTime":1545.987,"body":"So the way that we're solving for this"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1540.257,"endTime":1545.987,"body":"right now is imagine when an alert"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1545.987,"endTime":1550.75,"body":"fires the first things that you will"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1545.987,"endTime":1550.75,"body":"do is you will go check, you know,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1550.75,"endTime":1555.34,"body":"maybe your logs in telemetry and traces"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1550.75,"endTime":1555.34,"body":"and synthetics and check Datadog."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1555.34,"endTime":1560.74,"body":"You check sentry check, you know, your"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1555.34,"endTime":1560.74,"body":"GitHub you maybe try to mentally correlate"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1560.77,"endTime":1564.73,"body":"what were some of the past incidents"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1560.77,"endTime":1564.73,"body":"that were occurring and what we're"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1564.73,"endTime":1568.75,"body":"able to do with our agents is, well, we"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1564.73,"endTime":1568.75,"body":"can sift through large amounts of data"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1569.02,"endTime":1574.15,"body":"instantaneously before that you, you even"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1569.02,"endTime":1574.15,"body":"have time to flip open your laptop and"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1574.15,"endTime":1577.06,"body":"tell you what the probable root causes."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1577.24,"endTime":1582.67,"body":"And where this starts becoming powerful"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1577.24,"endTime":1582.67,"body":"is the complexity of incidents is"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1582.7,"endTime":1584.8,"body":"only going to increase over time."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1585.76,"endTime":1587.74,"body":"I am sure you guys see it all the time."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1587.74,"endTime":1591.52,"body":"The adoption of coding assistance"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1587.74,"endTime":1591.52,"body":"has been through to the roof."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1591.55,"endTime":1592.2,"body":"You know Cursor,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1592.25,"endTime":1592.5,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1592.57,"endTime":1595.45,"body":"You know, is one of the fastest"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1592.57,"endTime":1595.45,"body":"companies to reach a hundred million."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1595.785,"endTime":1595.945,"body":"Everyone."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1596.68,"endTime":1597.43,"body":"Uses copilot."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1597.43,"endTime":1601.97,"body":"I was recently in London with a private"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1597.43,"endTime":1601.97,"body":"equity firm, and they have strict board"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1601.97,"endTime":1604.31,"body":"level mandates to adopt coding assistance."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1604.31,"endTime":1605.27,"body":"'cause they view it as"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1605.288,"endTime":1605.378,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1605.54,"endTime":1609.51,"body":"if we can get 5% more"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1605.54,"endTime":1609.51,"body":"developer productivity, then why"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1609.51,"endTime":1612.18,"body":"wouldn't we do it across, you"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1609.51,"endTime":1612.18,"body":"know, we have a million developers."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1612.18,"endTime":1614.52,"body":"That's a huge money save them."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1614.79,"endTime":1617.76,"body":"But with these coding assistance"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1614.79,"endTime":1617.76,"body":"and, you know, if people are"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1617.76,"endTime":1622.56,"body":"vibe coding into production right"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1617.76,"endTime":1622.56,"body":"now, are new system dependencies."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1622.955,"endTime":1626.495,"body":"That introduce problems and"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1622.955,"endTime":1626.495,"body":"errors and incidents that we"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1626.765,"endTime":1628.955,"body":"did not necessarily anticipate."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1629.515,"endTime":1634.325,"body":"And even Your smartest SRE, that L7 SRE"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1629.515,"endTime":1634.325,"body":"that we were talking about before does"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1634.325,"endTime":1636.125,"body":"not know those changes are occurring."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1636.575,"endTime":1642.055,"body":"So on the other hand, you need a"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1636.575,"endTime":1642.055,"body":"new wave of machines to help debug"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1642.055,"endTime":1643.585,"body":"what other machines have done."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1643.645,"endTime":1643.945,"body":"So you're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1643.945,"endTime":1644.585,"body":"fighting"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1645.115,"endTime":1647.645,"body":"the trend on,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1645.115,"endTime":1647.645,"body":"both sides effectively."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1647.945,"endTime":1652.685,"body":"And that's where you can get, you know,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1647.945,"endTime":1652.685,"body":"not only necessitate the need, but where"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1652.775,"endTime":1654.905,"body":"proactivity then becomes important."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1654.955,"endTime":1658.795,"body":"What systems like ours will be able to"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1654.955,"endTime":1658.795,"body":"do is actually determine whether or not"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1658.795,"endTime":1664.305,"body":"a human needs to be, involved, and the"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1658.795,"endTime":1664.305,"body":"future of that becomes really exciting."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1664.305,"endTime":1668.745,"body":"On one hand, you're identifying what"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1664.305,"endTime":1668.745,"body":"the issue is, on the other hand, you're"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1668.745,"endTime":1672.855,"body":"able to identify what the right fix is,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1668.745,"endTime":1672.855,"body":"then deploying the right fix, then all"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1672.855,"endTime":1678.545,"body":"the way, shifting left into the point"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1672.855,"endTime":1678.545,"body":"of pushing your code into production,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1678.545,"endTime":1683.345,"body":"you can emulate what the impact could"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1678.545,"endTime":1683.345,"body":"be before you even make that change,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1683.375,"endTime":1686.345,"body":"I might be able to say to you, Andrew,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1683.375,"endTime":1686.345,"body":"hey, I maybe I wouldn't do that."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1686.345,"endTime":1689.405,"body":"That seems really dangerous"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1686.345,"endTime":1689.405,"body":"because of this and this reason."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1689.993,"endTime":1692.483,"body":"Yeah, it's like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1689.993,"endTime":1692.483,"body":"predictive impact in a way."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1692.513,"endTime":1696.983,"body":"And what you're saying is really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1692.513,"endTime":1696.983,"body":"interesting and it actually threads"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1696.983,"endTime":1701.123,"body":"through something I've been hearing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1696.983,"endTime":1701.123,"body":"from recent guests on the podcast."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1701.123,"endTime":1704.963,"body":"It's actually quite interesting how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1701.123,"endTime":1704.963,"body":"this narrative compounds itself."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1705.203,"endTime":1708.773,"body":"So to connect them, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1705.203,"endTime":1708.773,"body":"know, we had a recent guest."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1709.118,"endTime":1713.348,"body":"Tanya Janka, she's a cybersecurity"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1709.118,"endTime":1713.348,"body":"expert and she really expressed"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1713.348,"endTime":1717.208,"body":"how, cyber attacks and incidents are"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1713.348,"endTime":1717.208,"body":"only gonna get more and more worse."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1717.238,"endTime":1719.308,"body":"They get exponentially worse every year."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1719.308,"endTime":1724.298,"body":"With the introduction of AI and agents and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1719.308,"endTime":1724.298,"body":"this kind of thing at scale, that risk is."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1724.353,"endTime":1727.803,"body":"Even higher, you know, these"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1724.353,"endTime":1727.803,"body":"fundamentals become even more important."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1728.103,"endTime":1730.773,"body":"And we spoke with another recent guest."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1730.993,"endTime":1736.173,"body":"Sagar Batchu talked about API consumption"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1730.993,"endTime":1736.173,"body":"in the future and about how it's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1736.173,"endTime":1740.823,"body":"gonna be 10 x as much as it was the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1736.173,"endTime":1740.823,"body":"day before and how like overnight,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1740.823,"endTime":1745.293,"body":"LLM, consumers of services and tools"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1740.823,"endTime":1745.293,"body":"are going to break infrastructure and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1745.293,"endTime":1748.473,"body":"are going to have profound impacts"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1745.293,"endTime":1748.473,"body":"on how we've built these things."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1748.713,"endTime":1754.413,"body":"And now here we are at the culmination"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1748.713,"endTime":1754.413,"body":"of that in that you have to fight that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1754.473,"endTime":1758.073,"body":"big fire, like those thousand fires"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1754.473,"endTime":1758.073,"body":"that are happening with something that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1758.073,"endTime":1761.703,"body":"can predict where the fire thousand"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1758.073,"endTime":1761.703,"body":"fires are going to happen and how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1761.703,"endTime":1763.443,"body":"you can minimize the impact of that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1763.713,"endTime":1769.143,"body":"So if you're taking advantage of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1763.713,"endTime":1769.143,"body":"all of the benefits of an LLM and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1769.143,"endTime":1772.803,"body":"ai, you also have to take advantage"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1769.143,"endTime":1772.803,"body":"of all of the protections that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1772.803,"endTime":1775.083,"body":"you need in that environment."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1775.183,"endTime":1779.003,"body":"does that kind of, thread through on"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1775.183,"endTime":1779.003,"body":"how y'all are thinking about it too?"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1779.772,"endTime":1780.402,"body":"Yeah, totally."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1780.402,"endTime":1784.662,"body":"I, I think it opens up a, you know,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1780.402,"endTime":1784.662,"body":"selfishly for us, a whole new market"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1784.662,"endTime":1787.402,"body":"of, productivity that can occur."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1787.432,"endTime":1791.842,"body":"'cause a whole new class of incidents"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1787.432,"endTime":1791.842,"body":"will start existing and I think,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1791.902,"endTime":1795.502,"body":"you know, the TAM that LLMs will"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1791.902,"endTime":1795.502,"body":"open up for other software companies"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1795.502,"endTime":1797.752,"body":"will also be quite enormous."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1797.752,"endTime":1801.412,"body":"But, with the good comes the bad to"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1797.752,"endTime":1801.412,"body":"a certain extent, but I think the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1801.535,"endTime":1801.835,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1801.922,"endTime":1805.132,"body":"positive is still there"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1801.922,"endTime":1805.132,"body":"for most companies and for the"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1805.132,"endTime":1806.962,"body":"space and category as a whole."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1807.46,"endTime":1807.79,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1808.09,"endTime":1812.043,"body":"And let's talk about the steps of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1808.09,"endTime":1812.043,"body":"getting to this, proactive model."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1812.103,"endTime":1815.193,"body":"And I think a lot of it comes"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1812.103,"endTime":1815.193,"body":"down to cross team collaboration."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1815.643,"endTime":1818.973,"body":"I'm wondering, you know, what's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1815.643,"endTime":1818.973,"body":"your perspective on how you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1818.973,"endTime":1823.383,"body":"see successful teams interact"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1818.973,"endTime":1823.383,"body":"between, engineering, product,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1823.383,"endTime":1825.898,"body":"leadership, how do they work best?"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1826.793,"endTime":1832.583,"body":"I can probably share this"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1826.793,"endTime":1832.583,"body":"best or characterize this best."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1832.583,"endTime":1835.343,"body":"There are a few examples that"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1832.583,"endTime":1835.343,"body":"we found particularly helpful."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1835.763,"endTime":1841.013,"body":"I think over time the definition"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1835.763,"endTime":1841.013,"body":"of roles and functions will change."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1841.193,"endTime":1842.363,"body":"There's a few things that we've done."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1843.233,"endTime":1847.373,"body":"One introduction was the concept"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1843.233,"endTime":1847.373,"body":"of an AI engineer, a generalist"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1847.373,"endTime":1849.533,"body":"AI engineer that we hired."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1849.863,"endTime":1858.503,"body":"And this person's job is to find"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1849.863,"endTime":1858.503,"body":"effectively areas of opportunity"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1858.503,"endTime":1864.833,"body":"where agents can do the work of team"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1858.503,"endTime":1864.833,"body":"and also be the cultural influence"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1864.833,"endTime":1869.303,"body":"for how other teams can think about"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1864.833,"endTime":1869.303,"body":"adopting and using AI as well."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1869.303,"endTime":1873.478,"body":"So one of the things that we did"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1869.303,"endTime":1873.478,"body":"was we had a, 15 person team of"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1873.478,"endTime":1875.878,"body":"BDRs that we had hired in Denver."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1876.238,"endTime":1880.498,"body":"And one of the things that we were"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1876.238,"endTime":1880.498,"body":"able to do with an AI engineer was"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1880.558,"endTime":1886.678,"body":"entirely automate how we prospect"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1880.558,"endTime":1886.678,"body":"by using tools like Clay and Claude."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1887.743,"endTime":1890.953,"body":"And merging them together with a"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1887.743,"endTime":1890.953,"body":"few other things that we're doing."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1890.983,"endTime":1894.733,"body":"This person did not have a traditional,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1890.983,"endTime":1894.733,"body":"you know, computer science background"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1894.763,"endTime":1898.453,"body":"and now we're going function by function"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1894.763,"endTime":1898.453,"body":"and finding the opportunities of"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1898.453,"endTime":1900.493,"body":"where this automation can now exist."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1900.493,"endTime":1904.873,"body":"We're finding a lot in our own"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1900.493,"endTime":1904.873,"body":"reconciliation processes on"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1904.873,"endTime":1907.073,"body":"the rev ops, side of the house."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1907.223,"endTime":1912.293,"body":"We are finding it a lot on the"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1907.223,"endTime":1912.293,"body":"support side of the house as well."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1912.713,"endTime":1917.228,"body":"And so I think this concept of where"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1912.713,"endTime":1917.228,"body":"traditionally when we started as a"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1917.228,"endTime":1922.958,"body":"company, engineers felt they were,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1917.228,"endTime":1922.958,"body":"maybe they had a role definition of"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1922.958,"endTime":1927.398,"body":"just, Hey, my job is to execute on these"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1922.958,"endTime":1927.398,"body":"tickets, and then I go home and do that."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1928.178,"endTime":1930.338,"body":"lines are becoming more"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1928.178,"endTime":1930.338,"body":"blurred and we're very much"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1930.526,"endTime":1930.746,"body":"Mm."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1931.478,"endTime":1934.718,"body":"We're letting the role of"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1931.478,"endTime":1934.718,"body":"everyone here to be more blurred."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1935.078,"endTime":1941.048,"body":"Um, Adam, who is our head of marketing, is"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1935.078,"endTime":1941.048,"body":"running a lot of our self-serve business."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1941.338,"endTime":1945.388,"body":"to ensure that's in a good spot because"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1941.338,"endTime":1945.388,"body":"he has a ton of experience there."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1945.388,"endTime":1948.698,"body":"And that might not be, the role"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1945.388,"endTime":1948.698,"body":"of any other header marketing,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1948.698,"endTime":1951.048,"body":"but we're totally, fine with that."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1951.108,"endTime":1956.118,"body":"And I think adopting that mentality"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1951.108,"endTime":1956.118,"body":"becomes incredibly important."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1956.118,"endTime":1959.238,"body":"And it has changed how we"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1956.118,"endTime":1959.238,"body":"interview people as well."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1959.238,"endTime":1964.178,"body":"We don't want to see them as you're"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1959.238,"endTime":1964.178,"body":"only a specialist in a particular area."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1964.178,"endTime":1968.993,"body":"We wanna see that you can be smart"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1964.178,"endTime":1968.993,"body":"be a generalist in many other areas"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1968.993,"endTime":1970.823,"body":"if you had to be flexed towards it."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1971.243,"endTime":1977.363,"body":"Then also culturally, we've done things"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1971.243,"endTime":1977.363,"body":"to allow everyone in the organization,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1977.363,"endTime":1980.573,"body":"not just customer success and not"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1977.363,"endTime":1980.573,"body":"just sales and not just support"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1980.963,"endTime":1983.033,"body":"to be much closer to the customer."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1983.34,"endTime":1987.84,"body":"The tangible examples I can give is every"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1983.34,"endTime":1987.84,"body":"single customer of ours has a shared"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1987.84,"endTime":1994.348,"body":"Slack channel or teams channel with us"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1987.84,"endTime":1994.348,"body":"and all of our engineers can access it."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1994.408,"endTime":1997.558,"body":"Sometimes they're working on a feature"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1994.408,"endTime":1997.558,"body":"request for a particular customer."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1997.798,"endTime":2000.588,"body":"They're in there directly with the"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":1997.798,"endTime":2000.588,"body":"CTO of that customer going back and"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2000.588,"endTime":2002.358,"body":"forth on, Hey, does this look good?"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2002.358,"endTime":2003.588,"body":"What would you change?"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2003.778,"endTime":2008.308,"body":"here's how we're thinking about the next"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2003.778,"endTime":2008.308,"body":"iteration of it and getting feedback."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2008.968,"endTime":2016.138,"body":"And that takes a lot of time to"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2008.968,"endTime":2016.138,"body":"deliberately codify, I would say."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2017.293,"endTime":2022.423,"body":"One of the things in the early days of"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2017.293,"endTime":2022.423,"body":"our business that we did was there's this"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2022.423,"endTime":2026.353,"body":"tendency to just start creating dashboards"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2022.423,"endTime":2026.353,"body":"for the sake of creating dashboards,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2026.353,"endTime":2030.703,"body":"and, and I never really understood that."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2030.907,"endTime":2034.087,"body":"I remember we went through this"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2030.907,"endTime":2034.087,"body":"process of creating these product"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2034.147,"endTime":2036.847,"body":"metric dashboards that measured."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2037.927,"endTime":2041.107,"body":"If you became a Rootly customer in the"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2037.927,"endTime":2041.107,"body":"early days, you would get a health score"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2041.107,"endTime":2044.607,"body":"depending on your activity in the platform"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2041.107,"endTime":2044.607,"body":"and a whole bunch of other factors."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2044.607,"endTime":2048.447,"body":"You got summarized into this number"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2044.607,"endTime":2048.447,"body":"and this number felt weird to me for"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2048.447,"endTime":2054.627,"body":"the longest time because it ultimately"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2048.447,"endTime":2054.627,"body":"distilled the uniqueness of you as a"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2054.627,"endTime":2059.067,"body":"customer, the challenges and pains that"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2054.627,"endTime":2059.067,"body":"you felt as a human into this number."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2059.907,"endTime":2061.077,"body":"Okay, you're a seven outta 10."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2061.077,"endTime":2062.637,"body":"What does that really mean?"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2062.667,"endTime":2065.067,"body":"So we went through and we deleted."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2065.367,"endTime":2070.677,"body":"Every single dashboard, every single"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2065.367,"endTime":2070.677,"body":"product measurement tool we had, and"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2070.677,"endTime":2075.747,"body":"we said the only way we are going"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2070.677,"endTime":2075.747,"body":"to learn from customers is we are"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2075.747,"endTime":2076.947,"body":"going to get on the phone with them."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2077.712,"endTime":2081.582,"body":"And we don't care if you're a $2,000"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2077.712,"endTime":2081.582,"body":"customer or you're $2 million customer"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2081.792,"endTime":2085.272,"body":"for us, we're gonna get on the phone with"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2081.792,"endTime":2085.272,"body":"you and we're gonna uniquely understand"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2085.362,"endTime":2087.252,"body":"what is working and what is not working."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2087.882,"endTime":2089.772,"body":"And that culturally has set."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2089.802,"endTime":2093.642,"body":"Now we have a bunch of dashboards for what"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2089.802,"endTime":2093.642,"body":"it's worth, that culturally has set the"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2093.642,"endTime":2098.352,"body":"stage for us to be incredibly customer"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2093.642,"endTime":2098.352,"body":"centric, to be close to customers,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2098.352,"endTime":2102.822,"body":"engineers interacting with them has"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2098.352,"endTime":2102.822,"body":"changed how we hire, how we evaluate."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2103.542,"endTime":2104.412,"body":"All of that."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2104.442,"endTime":2110.587,"body":"so I think to answer your question,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2104.442,"endTime":2110.587,"body":"a lot of it has to come tops down."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2110.587,"endTime":2114.817,"body":"A lot of it you have to think through"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2110.587,"endTime":2114.817,"body":"systematically and codify, and you have"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2114.817,"endTime":2119.197,"body":"to find these pockets of where people"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2114.817,"endTime":2119.197,"body":"can really carry the culture and the"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2119.197,"endTime":2124.297,"body":"behaviors that you want as a business"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2119.197,"endTime":2124.297,"body":"that amplify that the best that you can."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2124.727,"endTime":2127.997,"body":"And oftentimes we get it wrong too,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2124.727,"endTime":2127.997,"body":"that we've done many, many things"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2128.327,"endTime":2129.977,"body":"where we said, this is the right move."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2129.977,"endTime":2131.897,"body":"Then two weeks later we said"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2129.977,"endTime":2131.897,"body":"that was the wrong move."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2132.65,"endTime":2133.97,"body":"It's an iterative process"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2133.97,"endTime":2136.81,"body":"and I like this culture that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2133.97,"endTime":2136.81,"body":"you're building that focuses on a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2136.81,"endTime":2140.69,"body":"customer obsession that really gets"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2136.81,"endTime":2140.69,"body":"close to understanding problems."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2140.69,"endTime":2145.652,"body":"And I wanna talk about how that impacts"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2140.69,"endTime":2145.652,"body":"engineering, you know, for Rootly and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2145.652,"endTime":2147.932,"body":"how customer empathy plays a role there."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2147.982,"endTime":2151.832,"body":"'cause you know, I think it's very"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2147.982,"endTime":2151.832,"body":"typical, for engineers, engineering"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2151.832,"endTime":2155.822,"body":"leaders to focus specifically on the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2151.832,"endTime":2155.822,"body":"technical problems and forget about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2155.822,"endTime":2158.192,"body":"that connection to an end customer."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2158.462,"endTime":2162.212,"body":"So what is customer empathy"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2158.462,"endTime":2162.212,"body":"in that kind of engineering"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2162.212,"endTime":2164.102,"body":"environment look like to you?"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2164.712,"endTime":2164.922,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2164.922,"endTime":2168.972,"body":"The thing to say there are downsides"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2164.922,"endTime":2168.972,"body":"of being two customer centric."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2169.092,"endTime":2173.232,"body":"There are really great engineers"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2169.092,"endTime":2173.232,"body":"that have passed on us because of it."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2173.862,"endTime":2175.782,"body":"They don't want to be on"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2173.862,"endTime":2175.782,"body":"the phone with the customer."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2175.782,"endTime":2178.392,"body":"They don't want to be interacting"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2175.782,"endTime":2178.392,"body":"with the customer every day."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2178.392,"endTime":2182.992,"body":"They prefer to do hardcore engineering"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2178.392,"endTime":2182.992,"body":"and process and system design stuff."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2182.992,"endTime":2185.812,"body":"And I think we've made that trade off."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2185.942,"endTime":2191.848,"body":"because know, when you're, when you're"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2185.942,"endTime":2191.848,"body":"not a Salesforce sized company or an"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2191.848,"endTime":2196.708,"body":"Instacart sized company, you don't"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2191.848,"endTime":2196.708,"body":"have the luxury of a really good"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2196.708,"endTime":2199.048,"body":"decision maker in, in every turn."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2199.198,"endTime":2203.278,"body":"I think we rely a lot on, we"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2199.198,"endTime":2203.278,"body":"never AB test, we always rely on"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2203.278,"endTime":2207.118,"body":"our intuition and instincts to"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2203.278,"endTime":2207.118,"body":"make the right call in a product."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2207.148,"endTime":2212.038,"body":"We'd much rather delete what we"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2207.148,"endTime":2212.038,"body":"wrote and be wrong than to run"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2212.038,"endTime":2214.108,"body":"a long, drawn out experiment."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2214.108,"endTime":2220.498,"body":"I think that for us, culturally"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2214.108,"endTime":2220.498,"body":"has remained true and because of"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2220.498,"endTime":2221.698,"body":"all of those things that we do."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2223.678,"endTime":2228.448,"body":"Being incredibly customer centric"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2223.678,"endTime":2228.448,"body":"is important because we do not trust"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2228.448,"endTime":2233.608,"body":"someone's opinion unless you can advocate"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2228.448,"endTime":2233.608,"body":"and be somewhat the voice for the"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2233.608,"endTime":2238.668,"body":"customer, because then you don't have"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2233.608,"endTime":2238.668,"body":"someone in that room making that decision"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2238.668,"endTime":2240.198,"body":"that does have the customer empathy."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2240.558,"endTime":2245.122,"body":"We'll override your decision most"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2240.558,"endTime":2245.122,"body":"of the time because of it, and that"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2245.122,"endTime":2251.397,"body":"becomes incredibly important to us as"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2245.122,"endTime":2251.397,"body":"well because we want to make, we want"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2251.427,"endTime":2254.677,"body":"all engineers to not just engineers."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2254.677,"endTime":2257.617,"body":"We want them to make product decisions."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2258.095,"endTime":2258.515,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2258.605,"endTime":2260.855,"body":"You want them to be"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2258.605,"endTime":2260.855,"body":"product engineers, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2260.855,"endTime":2263.375,"body":"And it's serving an end"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2260.855,"endTime":2263.375,"body":"goal and end customer."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2264.607,"endTime":2270.187,"body":"Exactly, and so that's something"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2264.607,"endTime":2270.187,"body":"that we found works, at least for us."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2270.247,"endTime":2273.037,"body":"We'll see if it works"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2270.247,"endTime":2273.037,"body":"in the next five years."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2273.517,"endTime":2276.607,"body":"But for now, we're"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2273.517,"endTime":2276.607,"body":"continuing down the track."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2276.747,"endTime":2279.417,"body":"if you ever sign up to be a"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2276.747,"endTime":2279.417,"body":"Rootly customer, a lot of what you"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2279.417,"endTime":2282.237,"body":"interface with is actually with"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2279.417,"endTime":2282.237,"body":"engineers on our, on our team."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2283.245,"endTime":2283.845,"body":"That's cool."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2283.845,"endTime":2287.535,"body":"And I'm wondering for engineering"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2283.845,"endTime":2287.535,"body":"leaders who maybe listening to this and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2287.535,"endTime":2290.265,"body":"thinking maybe I wanna try this practice."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2290.545,"endTime":2294.085,"body":"What are some habits that, or"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2290.545,"endTime":2294.085,"body":"some key things that they could"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2294.085,"endTime":2297.265,"body":"put in place for their own team"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2294.085,"endTime":2297.265,"body":"to build that customer obsession?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2297.265,"endTime":2297.925,"body":"That customer empathy."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2298.554,"endTime":2300.079,"body":"I think that's"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2298.554,"endTime":2300.079,"body":"an engineering leader."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2300.834,"endTime":2304.104,"body":"The first thing that you want to"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2300.834,"endTime":2304.104,"body":"do, and where we really started"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2304.104,"endTime":2310.344,"body":"was consistently sharing the"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2304.104,"endTime":2310.344,"body":"context into what they're building."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2310.464,"endTime":2314.964,"body":"Oftentimes, engineers will get locked"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2310.464,"endTime":2314.964,"body":"into a particular work stream or a"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2314.964,"endTime":2319.839,"body":"particular feature without understanding"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2314.964,"endTime":2319.839,"body":"the larger picture, because oftentimes"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2319.839,"endTime":2323.529,"body":"I think we rely on, oh, well product"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2319.839,"endTime":2323.529,"body":"that's product's job to, you know,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2323.529,"endTime":2326.559,"body":"have the overall holistic picture."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2326.559,"endTime":2327.729,"body":"Does it work for this startup?"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2327.729,"endTime":2329.259,"body":"Does it also work for this enterprise?"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2329.259,"endTime":2329.979,"body":"Is it important?"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2329.979,"endTime":2330.879,"body":"Is it revenue driving?"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2330.879,"endTime":2331.809,"body":"Is it a nice to have?"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2331.809,"endTime":2334.539,"body":"Is it, you know, closing"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2331.809,"endTime":2334.539,"body":"a competitive gap?"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2334.539,"endTime":2338.204,"body":"All of that nuance often gets lost."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2339.459,"endTime":2341.579,"body":"It doesn't translate to what engineers do."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2341.609,"endTime":2343.379,"body":"I would ensure that context exists."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2343.379,"endTime":2346.019,"body":"It's not as noisy as you think it is."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2346.019,"endTime":2349.469,"body":"In fact, it's incredibly"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2346.019,"endTime":2349.469,"body":"motivating in good ways, and"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2349.469,"endTime":2351.519,"body":"also sometimes not in good ways."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2351.549,"endTime":2354.839,"body":"You know, you might work on something in"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2351.549,"endTime":2354.839,"body":"particular for a customer and you don't"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2354.839,"endTime":2358.259,"body":"end up winning that customer and then,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2354.839,"endTime":2358.259,"body":"you know, it doesn't feel too, too great."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2358.259,"endTime":2361.949,"body":"But you know, when you do and"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2358.259,"endTime":2361.949,"body":"it, you can see your work map"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2361.949,"endTime":2363.599,"body":"directly to these outcomes."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2364.529,"endTime":2367.979,"body":"It triggers something in your mind"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2364.529,"endTime":2367.979,"body":"where, Hey, I really like that feeling."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2368.249,"endTime":2369.389,"body":"I wanna do more of it."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2370.199,"endTime":2373.259,"body":"All of our engineering leaders,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2370.199,"endTime":2373.259,"body":"we have a weekly sales meeting."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2373.319,"endTime":2375.239,"body":"Our engineering leaders are part of that."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2375.299,"endTime":2379.259,"body":"So they can distill that to their"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2375.299,"endTime":2379.259,"body":"team and we post it publicly,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2379.259,"endTime":2380.759,"body":"we share it in our all hands."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2381.099,"endTime":2385.384,"body":"There's not a single engineer"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2381.099,"endTime":2385.384,"body":"that works at Rootly does that,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2385.384,"endTime":2387.664,"body":"doesn't understand where we are"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2387.664,"endTime":2393.154,"body":"revenue and customer wise,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2387.664,"endTime":2393.154,"body":"more than an AE here as well."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2393.534,"endTime":2395.654,"body":"in everything you've"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2393.534,"endTime":2395.654,"body":"guided through today, There's so many"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2395.654,"endTime":2399.794,"body":"interesting new things to consider"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2395.654,"endTime":2399.794,"body":"in the world of incident response."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2399.794,"endTime":2403.66,"body":"And when we think about incident"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2399.794,"endTime":2403.66,"body":"response, it's a, it's table"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2403.66,"endTime":2405.19,"body":"stakes for everywhere, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2405.19,"endTime":2408.9,"body":"Especially large infrastructure,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2405.19,"endTime":2408.9,"body":"critical infrastructure things that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2408.9,"endTime":2412.5,"body":"when they go down, it's not just"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2408.9,"endTime":2412.5,"body":"like, oh, you can't order pizza."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2412.54,"endTime":2417.34,"body":"there are services that can life and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2412.54,"endTime":2417.34,"body":"limb can be on the line and provide"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2417.34,"endTime":2419.32,"body":"key services and key scenarios."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2419.32,"endTime":2422.83,"body":"So, something I've learned in having"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2419.32,"endTime":2422.83,"body":"these conversations is that founders,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2422.83,"endTime":2427.84,"body":"they sit on these very unique precipices"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2422.83,"endTime":2427.84,"body":"and they have a very far vantage into"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2427.84,"endTime":2430.09,"body":"how things are moving and evolving."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2430.48,"endTime":2435.87,"body":"I wanted to ask you in our chat, what"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2430.48,"endTime":2435.87,"body":"would you think is the, the future?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2436.09,"endTime":2437.38,"body":"Of incident management."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2437.38,"endTime":2440.84,"body":"From where you are seeing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2437.38,"endTime":2440.84,"body":"it now, in charge of Rootly,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2440.96,"endTime":2442.43,"body":"where do you see it all going?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2442.43,"endTime":2446.89,"body":"Are there, interesting or even scary"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2442.43,"endTime":2446.89,"body":"or kind of like things that keep you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2446.89,"endTime":2449.08,"body":"up at night, kind of curious to know."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2449.493,"endTime":2451.083,"body":"Yeah, the lucky"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2449.493,"endTime":2451.083,"body":"position we get to be"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2451.083,"endTime":2451.353,"body":"in"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2451.353,"endTime":2454.023,"body":"as as a business is no"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2451.353,"endTime":2454.023,"body":"matter how good a company gets"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2454.023,"endTime":2457.053,"body":"at their incident management,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2454.023,"endTime":2457.053,"body":"they always still have incidents."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2457.353,"endTime":2461.433,"body":"So we have this fortunate problem where"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2457.353,"endTime":2461.433,"body":"we never run outta supply necessarily,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2461.433,"endTime":2463.023,"body":"and it's a challenge that affects."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2463.483,"endTime":2467.353,"body":"All verticals and businesses, and I"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2463.483,"endTime":2467.353,"body":"often joke with their customers, they"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2467.353,"endTime":2470.203,"body":"get on the phone with me and then"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2467.353,"endTime":2470.203,"body":"tell me how bad their incidents are"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2470.203,"endTime":2471.703,"body":"and how many they've been having."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2471.763,"endTime":2474.373,"body":"And I tell 'em, I say, well, that's"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2471.763,"endTime":2474.373,"body":"great because that means I can,"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2475.213,"endTime":2479.373,"body":"find a way to help you make that a"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2475.213,"endTime":2479.373,"body":"little bit better at the very least."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2479.373,"endTime":2483.663,"body":"And it, I think it ties into a lot"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2479.373,"endTime":2483.663,"body":"of what we, um, what you called out"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2483.663,"endTime":2487.923,"body":"previously and the world is just"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2483.663,"endTime":2487.923,"body":"going to get more complex, more"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2487.923,"endTime":2490.533,"body":"sophisticated tools will naturally evolve."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2490.533,"endTime":2495.273,"body":"I think there'll be a new class of"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2490.533,"endTime":2495.273,"body":"tools, a new way of with agents."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2495.273,"endTime":2498.033,"body":"There'll be agents that go"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2495.273,"endTime":2498.033,"body":"rogue and do the wrong thing."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2498.033,"endTime":2501.363,"body":"And those need to be detected"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2498.033,"endTime":2501.363,"body":"and created as incidents."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2501.363,"endTime":2502.863,"body":"And do humans resolve those?"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2502.863,"endTime":2504.843,"body":"Do agents resolve those?"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2504.843,"endTime":2508.803,"body":"I think it's all to be define still."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2509.283,"endTime":2514.383,"body":"I think the complexity in this landscape"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2509.283,"endTime":2514.383,"body":"will change, and I think for us, the"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2514.383,"endTime":2517.683,"body":"work smart humans will always exist."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2517.833,"endTime":2524.643,"body":"We will always be the copilot"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2517.833,"endTime":2524.643,"body":"to them in many ways, and their"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2524.643,"endTime":2529.653,"body":"work will shift to become this"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2524.643,"endTime":2529.653,"body":"new category of impactful things."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2529.653,"endTime":2533.493,"body":"They're not gonna be on this category"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2529.653,"endTime":2533.493,"body":"of like updating Jira tickets and"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2533.493,"endTime":2536.113,"body":"writing status page updates anymore."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2536.313,"endTime":2540.363,"body":"Their brain is best harnessed to use"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2536.313,"endTime":2540.363,"body":"elsewhere, and maybe that's using"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2540.363,"endTime":2547.173,"body":"other agents to help agents so the"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2540.363,"endTime":2547.173,"body":"world will get more, more proactively"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2547.503,"endTime":2549.483,"body":"reliable as well because of it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2550.213,"endTime":2550.933,"body":"Fascinating."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2551.233,"endTime":2553.813,"body":"Well, you've given me a lot"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2551.233,"endTime":2553.813,"body":"to really think about here,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2553.813,"endTime":2555.133,"body":"about where it's all going."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2555.183,"endTime":2559.713,"body":"But before we wrap up, I wanted to ask,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2555.183,"endTime":2559.713,"body":"you know, where can folks go to learn more"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2559.713,"endTime":2561.198,"body":"about you and what you're doing at Rootly?"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2561.78,"endTime":2563.79,"body":"Yeah, I post a lot on LinkedIn."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2563.79,"endTime":2566.82,"body":"Uh, mom likes every"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2563.79,"endTime":2566.82,"body":"single one of those posts."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2567.12,"endTime":2568.65,"body":"I think they're somewhat interesting."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2568.65,"endTime":2572.85,"body":"I talk a lot about AI and how we build"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2568.65,"endTime":2572.85,"body":"the company and a lot of the things that"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2572.85,"endTime":2575.01,"body":"we're doing on the incident response side."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2575.01,"endTime":2577.86,"body":"I try to share quite a few"},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2575.01,"endTime":2577.86,"body":"photos of my dog as much"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2578.133,"endTime":2579.093,"body":"Oh, I love that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2579.093,"endTime":2580.743,"body":"I love dog picks on LinkedIn."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2580.773,"endTime":2582.063,"body":"I'll definitely go check that out."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2582.293,"endTime":2586.013,"body":"you know, link Dev Interrupted and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2582.293,"endTime":2586.013,"body":"we post a lot on LinkedIn too, so"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2586.013,"endTime":2587.273,"body":"we'll have to continue the chat there."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2587.273,"endTime":2589.313,"body":"And if you are listening to this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2587.273,"endTime":2589.313,"body":"and have some thoughts about what"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2589.313,"endTime":2592.073,"body":"we talked about today, please, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2589.313,"endTime":2592.073,"body":"know, and jump in, let us know."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2592.073,"endTime":2594.996,"body":"You're gonna be seeing this all"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2592.073,"endTime":2594.996,"body":"over, LinkedIn if you follow us."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2595.026,"endTime":2598.386,"body":"and, you know, based on your"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2595.026,"endTime":2598.386,"body":"predictions of what's gonna happen"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2598.386,"endTime":2601.686,"body":"in the future, you know, JJ, maybe we"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2598.386,"endTime":2601.686,"body":"can have you back as like an update"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2601.836,"endTime":2605.496,"body":"on the, the status quo of, of incident"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2601.836,"endTime":2605.496,"body":"management, of incident response."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2605.496,"endTime":2606.666,"body":"So you can see what's evolving."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2606.946,"endTime":2608.056,"body":"'cause I think it's quickly moving."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2609.268,"endTime":2609.838,"body":"I would love that."},{"speaker":"JJ Tang","startTime":2609.838,"endTime":2610.928,"body":"Thank you so much for having me."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2611.626,"endTime":2612.256,"body":"Of course."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2612.336,"endTime":2614.466,"body":"if you made it this far, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2612.336,"endTime":2614.466,"body":"know, our loyal listener."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2614.736,"endTime":2615.846,"body":"First off, thank you."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2616.176,"endTime":2616.716,"body":"Second off."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2616.716,"endTime":2620.436,"body":"You clearly really liked it, so be"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2616.716,"endTime":2620.436,"body":"sure to subscribe to the podcast."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2620.586,"endTime":2623.436,"body":"If you're only listening to this,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2620.586,"endTime":2623.436,"body":"be sure to check out our substack as"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2623.436,"endTime":2625.326,"body":"well and what we post on LinkedIn."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2625.519,"endTime":2628.099,"body":"And that's it for this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2625.519,"endTime":2628.099,"body":"week's Dev Interrupted."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2628.419,"endTime":2629.409,"body":"We will see you next time."}]}