{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":6.115,"endTime":7.405,"body":"Welcome to Dev Interrupted."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":7.555,"endTime":8.885,"body":"I'm your host, Andrew Zigler."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":9.412,"endTime":11.177,"body":"And I am"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":9.412,"endTime":11.177,"body":"your host, Ben Lloyd Pearson."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":11.935,"endTime":14.755,"body":"In this week's news"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":11.935,"endTime":14.755,"body":"Roundup, we're talking about how the work"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":14.755,"endTime":19.855,"body":"culture in big tech is shifting away from"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":14.755,"endTime":19.855,"body":"cushy benefits and into survival mode."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":20.605,"endTime":23.995,"body":"we're also talking about why outdated"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":20.605,"endTime":23.995,"body":"technology is at the heart of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":23.995,"endTime":28.925,"body":"problems at Newark Airport and how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":23.995,"endTime":28.925,"body":"AI is now transforming Washington."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":29.115,"endTime":30.495,"body":"What do you wanna dig into first, Ben?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":31.372,"endTime":34.732,"body":"Well, as somebody"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":31.372,"endTime":34.732,"body":"who always dreamed of having a big cushy"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":34.732,"endTime":38.422,"body":"job but for some reason has never had"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":34.732,"endTime":38.422,"body":"one, i I, I want to talk about that one."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":38.422,"endTime":42.142,"body":"But maybe we can talk about the, the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":38.422,"endTime":42.142,"body":"FAA first and what's happening there."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":42.172,"endTime":45.387,"body":"'cause that seems to be a lot more"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":42.172,"endTime":45.387,"body":"top of mind for people right now."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":45.875,"endTime":46.745,"body":"Yeah, you bet."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":46.775,"endTime":49.778,"body":"So this has been an interesting one,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":46.775,"endTime":49.778,"body":"the, if you've been paying attention to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":49.808,"endTime":54.188,"body":"the news recently, there's been a lot of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":49.808,"endTime":54.188,"body":"problems happening at Newark Airport with"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":54.188,"endTime":58.628,"body":"radar outages, technology problems, and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":54.188,"endTime":58.628,"body":"we're talking about an airport, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":58.718,"endTime":62.358,"body":"Planes with people going in and out of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":58.718,"endTime":62.358,"body":"the sky at a time when, there's already"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":62.358,"endTime":66.258,"body":"a lot of anxiety around flying just"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":62.358,"endTime":66.258,"body":"because of recent snafus with planes."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":66.728,"endTime":70.168,"body":"All across the world, but especially"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":66.728,"endTime":70.168,"body":"here in American airports."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":70.168,"endTime":74.698,"body":"And so at its core, this is a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":70.168,"endTime":74.698,"body":"story about the FAA having to,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":74.798,"endTime":78.308,"body":"reapproach their technology with"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":74.798,"endTime":78.308,"body":"some rather unorthodox solutions."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":78.308,"endTime":82.718,"body":"Some of them, which include buying"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":78.308,"endTime":82.718,"body":"parts off of eBay because the equipment"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":82.718,"endTime":87.008,"body":"they have on hand is so old and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":82.718,"endTime":87.008,"body":"the stuff they have to replace it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":87.008,"endTime":89.198,"body":"with, is that difficult to source?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":89.248,"endTime":92.135,"body":"I don't think this comes as a shock"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":89.248,"endTime":92.135,"body":"to anybody, legacy systems are."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":92.555,"endTime":97.055,"body":"All across the government in all parts"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":92.555,"endTime":97.055,"body":"of the things that power are every day."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":97.245,"endTime":100.185,"body":"they're written in ancient languages"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":97.245,"endTime":100.185,"body":"like COBOL that only people"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":100.185,"endTime":101.805,"body":"over the age of 60 even know."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":102.045,"endTime":106.435,"body":"And it really kind of sets us up for,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":102.045,"endTime":106.435,"body":"we have these like brittle systems"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":106.435,"endTime":110.815,"body":"or at least outdated systems, systems"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":106.435,"endTime":110.815,"body":"that, ran on technology of yesterday."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":111.025,"endTime":114.775,"body":"But as we know, today's technology"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":111.025,"endTime":114.775,"body":"world is moving so fast."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":114.775,"endTime":119.255,"body":"so you can imagine how much quicker"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":114.775,"endTime":119.255,"body":"these things are becoming antiquated."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":119.515,"endTime":122.215,"body":"This is a high stake situation"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":119.515,"endTime":122.215,"body":"because we're talking about planes"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":122.215,"endTime":123.595,"body":"that go in and outta the sky."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":123.805,"endTime":127.705,"body":"No one wants to be on a plane wondering"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":123.805,"endTime":127.705,"body":"if the COBOL programming powering the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":127.705,"endTime":131.815,"body":"radar at their air traffic control tower"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":127.705,"endTime":131.815,"body":"at their airport is gonna work that day."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":132.045,"endTime":133.515,"body":"but ultimately these things are."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":133.76,"endTime":135.47,"body":"strapped under bureaucracy."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":135.69,"endTime":140.6,"body":"this isn't a surprise to anybody that,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":135.69,"endTime":140.6,"body":"at its core, it's a, a, a human problem."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":140.75,"endTime":142.61,"body":"So, Ben, what do you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":140.75,"endTime":142.61,"body":"think about the story?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":143.342,"endTime":143.642,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":143.642,"endTime":148.262,"body":"You know, we, we take a lot of technology"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":143.642,"endTime":148.262,"body":"for granted, especially like stuff"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":148.262,"endTime":153.632,"body":"like flying in an airplane, which has"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":148.262,"endTime":153.632,"body":"become so commonplace and such a norm."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":154.002,"endTime":157.074,"body":"in fact, I mean, I was even on a,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":154.002,"endTime":157.074,"body":"plane just last week to go to the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":157.104,"endTime":161.514,"body":"code remix summit, and I was thinking"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":157.104,"endTime":161.514,"body":"about this story the entire time as"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":161.514,"endTime":164.184,"body":"I was getting on and off airplanes."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":164.554,"endTime":166.414,"body":"you know, I was very conscious of like."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":166.663,"endTime":170.203,"body":"For probably the first time in a while"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":166.663,"endTime":170.203,"body":"with flying, I was very conscious of like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":170.233,"endTime":174.613,"body":"all of the little things that went into"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":170.233,"endTime":174.613,"body":"making sure that that me and everyone else"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":174.613,"endTime":176.653,"body":"gets safely from one place to another."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":177.194,"endTime":179.774,"body":"and it kind of puts things into"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":177.194,"endTime":179.774,"body":"perspective when like there are delays"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":179.774,"endTime":181.484,"body":"and people get frustrated and like,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":181.854,"endTime":184.494,"body":"upset with the airline and all"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":181.854,"endTime":184.494,"body":"of that stuff, but you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":184.494,"endTime":187.584,"body":"that's just a fact of having like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":184.494,"endTime":187.584,"body":"these high stakes environments."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":188.057,"endTime":188.347,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":189.054,"endTime":190.794,"body":"but speaking of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":189.054,"endTime":190.794,"body":"code remix, you know, one of the things"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":190.794,"endTime":194.664,"body":"that came up in discussion a lot there,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":190.794,"endTime":194.664,"body":"was how like software engineering as a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":194.664,"endTime":199.614,"body":"whole really is in its infancy compared"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":194.664,"endTime":199.614,"body":"to most other engineering professions"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":199.664,"endTime":203.454,"body":"Think about how long, architecture"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":199.664,"endTime":203.454,"body":"as a practice has been around like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":203.484,"endTime":206.724,"body":"at least hundreds of years and maybe"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":203.484,"endTime":206.724,"body":"even arguably thousands of years."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":206.724,"endTime":209.244,"body":"Like, I'm not an expert on this,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":206.724,"endTime":209.244,"body":"but you know, people have been"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":209.244,"endTime":210.624,"body":"building stuff for a long time."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":211.332,"endTime":213.107,"body":"The Romans would"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":211.332,"endTime":213.107,"body":"have something to say then."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":213.184,"endTime":213.784,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":213.874,"endTime":214.144,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":214.707,"endTime":217.667,"body":"so, and, and the, the issue I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":214.707,"endTime":217.667,"body":"think is that the software industry"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":217.667,"endTime":222.107,"body":"is now dealing with this complex"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":217.667,"endTime":222.107,"body":"reality of legacy systems that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":222.107,"endTime":224.867,"body":"are well beyond their end of life."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":225.177,"endTime":229.547,"body":"in an industry that is relatively new on"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":225.177,"endTime":229.547,"body":"the, the grand timescale of, of humanity."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":229.977,"endTime":233.787,"body":"and then on top of things, it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":229.977,"endTime":233.787,"body":"like rapidly being disrupted by ai."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":233.847,"endTime":238.077,"body":"Like At code remix, you know, one of the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":233.847,"endTime":238.077,"body":"biggest topics was app modernization and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":238.077,"endTime":242.967,"body":"I, I actually learned a few things on this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":238.077,"endTime":242.967,"body":"topic, and a big takeaway was that, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":242.967,"endTime":247.017,"body":"know, when you're migrating from these"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":242.967,"endTime":247.017,"body":"legacy systems, there's this like complex"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":247.017,"endTime":251.307,"body":"interaction of these like deterministic"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":247.017,"endTime":251.307,"body":"and probabilistic systems that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":251.692,"endTime":254.032,"body":"It can be really hard to unwire sometimes."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":254.032,"endTime":258.262,"body":"So like for flights, like on the,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":254.032,"endTime":258.262,"body":"the deterministic side, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":258.262,"endTime":262.072,"body":"you gotta track the data and the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":258.262,"endTime":262.072,"body":"location for all these planes in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":262.072,"endTime":264.472,"body":"real time to avoid collisions, right?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":264.472,"endTime":266.842,"body":"Like either things are colliding"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":264.472,"endTime":266.842,"body":"or they're not colliding."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":266.842,"endTime":269.272,"body":"Like there's only two,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":266.842,"endTime":269.272,"body":"two situations there."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":269.882,"endTime":272.822,"body":"But then there's also all these"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":269.882,"endTime":272.822,"body":"probabilistic elements like weather"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":272.822,"endTime":276.752,"body":"and schedule changes, like you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":272.822,"endTime":276.752,"body":"have to proactively and reactively"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":276.752,"endTime":279.062,"body":"adapt to, to dynamic environments."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":279.542,"endTime":281.762,"body":"And you know, a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":279.542,"endTime":281.762,"body":"challenges that modernization"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":281.762,"endTime":283.772,"body":"faces is largely deterministic."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":283.822,"endTime":289.132,"body":"this was a, a, um, a sentiment that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":283.822,"endTime":289.132,"body":"was echoed by a recent guest, Animesh"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":289.132,"endTime":293.012,"body":"Mishra from Diffblue, which was"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":289.132,"endTime":293.012,"body":"also like to bring this full circle."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":293.012,"endTime":295.442,"body":"They were also a code remix"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":293.012,"endTime":295.442,"body":"sponsor, which is really cool"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":295.442,"endTime":296.732,"body":"to see their tech partnership."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":297.189,"endTime":301.599,"body":"but, you know, air Traffic Control is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":297.189,"endTime":301.599,"body":"dealing with all of these typical software"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":301.599,"endTime":306.924,"body":"issues, but then this whole layer of added"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":301.599,"endTime":306.924,"body":"complexity of both federal regulations"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":306.924,"endTime":311.954,"body":"and outdated infrastructure that, we"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":306.924,"endTime":311.954,"body":"need coordinated investment into this."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":312.099,"endTime":315.233,"body":"So let's, let's keep this,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":312.099,"endTime":315.233,"body":"technology in the federal US"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":315.233,"endTime":318.238,"body":"federal government train going,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":315.233,"endTime":318.238,"body":"Andrew, what, what's our next story?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":318.638,"endTime":322.128,"body":"So, we're talking about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":318.638,"endTime":322.128,"body":"how, this isn't news to anybody, how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":322.248,"endTime":325.938,"body":"technology and, and such as being"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":322.248,"endTime":325.938,"body":"overthrown, in the US government,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":325.938,"endTime":330.318,"body":"and this has to go back obviously to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":325.938,"endTime":330.318,"body":"the core of DOGE and, and its mandate"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":330.318,"endTime":335.843,"body":"or its goals to, overhaul technology"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":330.318,"endTime":335.843,"body":"within the government and agencies"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":335.843,"endTime":340.253,"body":"are now putting in place top-down AI"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":335.843,"endTime":340.253,"body":"initiatives to achieve those goals."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":340.253,"endTime":344.153,"body":"And if you work in software engineering"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":340.253,"endTime":344.153,"body":"like many of our listeners do, this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":344.183,"endTime":345.473,"body":"probably sounds really familiar."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":345.473,"endTime":349.193,"body":"We're all in this environment where"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":345.473,"endTime":349.193,"body":"we get these top-down AI initiatives,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":349.273,"endTime":349.563,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":349.676,"endTime":351.421,"body":"Now, when"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":349.676,"endTime":351.421,"body":"we're talking about."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":351.859,"endTime":355.849,"body":"the government trying to overhaul"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":351.859,"endTime":355.849,"body":"traditional programs with ai, we're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":355.849,"endTime":359.669,"body":"talking mostly about, replacing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":355.849,"endTime":359.669,"body":"bureaucratic workers, middle"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":359.669,"endTime":364.059,"body":"management workers, we might think"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":359.669,"endTime":364.059,"body":"of at the IRS or otherwise with a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":364.059,"endTime":367.239,"body":"automated systems powered by AI Now."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":367.669,"endTime":371.689,"body":"This is obviously a very, um, a, a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":367.669,"endTime":371.689,"body":"appealing thing for many to explore,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":371.689,"endTime":375.079,"body":"just like how it is in software"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":371.689,"endTime":375.079,"body":"engineering, because when you have"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":375.079,"endTime":379.159,"body":"a hammer like ai, everything kind"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":375.079,"endTime":379.159,"body":"of does start to look like a nail."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":379.309,"endTime":382.099,"body":"You want to try to take it and apply"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":379.309,"endTime":382.099,"body":"it to all sorts of new problems."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":382.099,"endTime":385.999,"body":"So in a world where, uh, or either in a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":382.099,"endTime":385.999,"body":"place like, you know, government where"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":385.999,"endTime":389.929,"body":"you have a lot of antiquated and, uh,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":385.999,"endTime":389.929,"body":"legacy problems, it's really appealing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":389.929,"endTime":391.369,"body":"to try to take this new tech to it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":391.369,"endTime":395.779,"body":"But it obviously is a highly nuanced issue"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":391.369,"endTime":395.779,"body":"because again, the stakes are so high."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":395.959,"endTime":400.039,"body":"We're talking about systems that power"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":395.959,"endTime":400.039,"body":"our world, that allow people to get access"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":400.039,"endTime":404.959,"body":"to healthcare, to benefits, to money"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":400.039,"endTime":404.959,"body":"that they're entitled to from various"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":404.959,"endTime":408.739,"body":"programs, things that actually might"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":404.959,"endTime":408.739,"body":"keep people alive in many circumstances."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":408.739,"endTime":414.012,"body":"So the stakes for, uh, implementing this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":408.739,"endTime":414.012,"body":"are way, way, way higher than most of us"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":414.012,"endTime":415.992,"body":"ever deal with in software engineering."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":416.322,"endTime":419.392,"body":"Something that this story reminded"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":416.322,"endTime":419.392,"body":"me of, of coming in and trying to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":419.392,"endTime":422.512,"body":"replace people in old systems with ai."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":422.512,"endTime":427.012,"body":"It reminded me of like the, the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":422.512,"endTime":427.012,"body":"Klarna ai, um, memo that, that that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":427.012,"endTime":430.362,"body":"was, came out in recent weeks, recent"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":427.012,"endTime":430.362,"body":"months about, replacing customer"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":430.362,"endTime":432.132,"body":"service representatives with ai."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":432.472,"endTime":435.952,"body":"And in like the past week or so,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":432.472,"endTime":435.952,"body":"they've quietly been putting back"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":435.952,"endTime":440.752,"body":"up job postings for customer service"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":435.952,"endTime":440.752,"body":"reps and walking back those statements"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":440.752,"endTime":442.462,"body":"about replacing people with ai."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":442.462,"endTime":445.912,"body":"And it goes to show that, Klarna might"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":442.462,"endTime":445.912,"body":"have learned something in that process"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":445.912,"endTime":450.502,"body":"that you can't fully replace those"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":445.912,"endTime":450.502,"body":"systems with something like AI technology."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":450.712,"endTime":453.952,"body":"Um, that sometimes problems do"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":450.712,"endTime":453.952,"body":"ultimately need to be handled by people."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":454.162,"endTime":456.652,"body":"Just maybe the skills that the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":454.162,"endTime":456.652,"body":"people are using are evolving."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":456.892,"endTime":457.132,"body":"So."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":457.627,"endTime":461.797,"body":"This is a highly nuanced issue, and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":457.627,"endTime":461.797,"body":"it's not news to anybody, uh, but it is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":461.797,"endTime":465.907,"body":"kind of a, a new development in terms"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":461.797,"endTime":465.907,"body":"of putting top-down AI initiatives in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":466.099,"endTime":469.069,"body":"Yeah, so I think, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":466.099,"endTime":469.069,"body":"the big story here is that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":469.069,"endTime":472.969,"body":"these top down AI initiatives appear to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":469.069,"endTime":472.969,"body":"be coming for the government as well."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":473.219,"endTime":475.949,"body":"Both in Doge, but also the IRS."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":476.299,"endTime":481.549,"body":"I totally get the desire to like,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":476.299,"endTime":481.549,"body":"apply AI to a bunch of situations,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":481.549,"endTime":484.939,"body":"like, particularly at the IRSI"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":481.549,"endTime":484.939,"body":"could see why they would want to do"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":484.939,"endTime":488.462,"body":"this, but, uh, neither one of these"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":484.939,"endTime":488.462,"body":"organizations is being very transparent"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":488.462,"endTime":489.722,"body":"about how they're applying it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":489.752,"endTime":492.422,"body":"And my concern is that there's,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":489.752,"endTime":492.422,"body":"there's a right way to do"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":492.422,"endTime":493.472,"body":"it and there's a wrong way."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":493.772,"endTime":498.182,"body":"Like the right way is to use it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":493.772,"endTime":498.182,"body":"for these probabilistic challenges,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":498.182,"endTime":499.442,"body":"like I mentioned earlier."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":499.802,"endTime":504.722,"body":"So like for example, the IRS might want"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":499.802,"endTime":504.722,"body":"to use AI to like feed it some, some"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":504.722,"endTime":510.692,"body":"filtered data sets, uh, and then use AI"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":504.722,"endTime":510.692,"body":"to like predict unusual or suspicious"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":510.692,"endTime":512.912,"body":"behaviors like probabilistic detection."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":512.912,"endTime":516.132,"body":"Like that is generally, a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":512.912,"endTime":516.132,"body":"good application for ai."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":516.522,"endTime":518.862,"body":"But then there's also the wrong"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":516.522,"endTime":518.862,"body":"way when you try to like apply it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":518.862,"endTime":520.512,"body":"to like deterministic challenges."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":520.512,"endTime":524.412,"body":"Like I don't want AI trying to determine"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":520.512,"endTime":524.412,"body":"how much I owe for taxes every year."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":524.742,"endTime":527.142,"body":"And I don't think anyone listening"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":524.742,"endTime":527.142,"body":"to this would want that either."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":527.731,"endTime":532.261,"body":"So, you know, I hope more of the former"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":527.731,"endTime":532.261,"body":"is happening rather than the latter."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":532.711,"endTime":535.111,"body":"But I think when you really think"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":532.711,"endTime":535.111,"body":"about it, like there's a deeper"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":535.111,"endTime":538.591,"body":"story here that ties both the last"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":535.111,"endTime":538.591,"body":"story and this story together in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":538.591,"endTime":542.556,"body":"that there really is just a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":538.591,"endTime":542.556,"body":"software infrastructure that is aging."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":542.916,"endTime":546.486,"body":"Particularly like I imagine the US federal"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":542.916,"endTime":546.486,"body":"government is not the only government"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":546.486,"endTime":547.986,"body":"in the world that's facing this."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":548.386,"endTime":552.016,"body":"but it is, does seem particularly"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":548.386,"endTime":552.016,"body":"acute within the United States."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":552.366,"endTime":555.906,"body":"and we're just lacking like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":552.366,"endTime":555.906,"body":"coordinated modernization programs."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":555.906,"endTime":556.236,"body":"Like,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":556.314,"endTime":556.604,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":556.746,"endTime":559.396,"body":"know, I, I'm, I'm"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":556.746,"endTime":559.396,"body":"thinking back to like, we had the,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":559.396,"endTime":563.466,"body":"civilian Conservation Corps back"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":559.396,"endTime":563.466,"body":"during the depression where, you had"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":563.466,"endTime":566.436,"body":"young people that would get paid and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":563.466,"endTime":566.436,"body":"they would have housing just to go"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":566.436,"endTime":568.146,"body":"out and build things for the public."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":568.146,"endTime":572.076,"body":"when I found out about this, I was"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":568.146,"endTime":572.076,"body":"hiking in, in a state park and stopped"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":572.076,"endTime":575.046,"body":"in a shelter and like read this plaque"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":572.076,"endTime":575.046,"body":"that explained that people that were"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":575.046,"endTime":578.316,"body":"there a hundred years before me built"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":575.046,"endTime":578.316,"body":"this thing so that I could enjoy it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":578.454,"endTime":579.774,"body":"almost a hundred years later."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":580.194,"endTime":582.984,"body":"And we don't really have very"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":580.194,"endTime":582.984,"body":"many practices like that today,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":582.984,"endTime":584.394,"body":"particularly not for software."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":584.394,"endTime":588.804,"body":"Like, you know, there's no like AmeriCorps"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":584.394,"endTime":588.804,"body":"for software that I'm aware of at least."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":589.282,"endTime":593.332,"body":"And I would fully support like some"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":589.282,"endTime":593.332,"body":"sort of initiative to, to do things"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":593.332,"endTime":598.582,"body":"like that, to help our government and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":593.332,"endTime":598.582,"body":"our public sector, like modernize."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":598.642,"endTime":601.252,"body":"And you know, the truth is there's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":598.642,"endTime":601.252,"body":"just so many opportunities out there."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":601.252,"endTime":604.402,"body":"Like there's more opportunities"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":601.252,"endTime":604.402,"body":"than there are people like solving"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":604.402,"endTime":606.082,"body":"those, those challenges today."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":606.592,"endTime":608.542,"body":"And you know, I'm, I'm aware"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":606.592,"endTime":608.542,"body":"that like, you know, this has"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":608.542,"endTime":610.192,"body":"been a little US heavy so far."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":610.192,"endTime":612.772,"body":"Like we have a lot of listeners"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":610.192,"endTime":612.772,"body":"that aren't in the US."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":613.107,"endTime":617.877,"body":"And I imagine some of those governments"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":613.107,"endTime":617.877,"body":"have really figured out how to modernize"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":617.877,"endTime":621.177,"body":"technology versus like, there's probably"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":617.877,"endTime":621.177,"body":"plenty of others that also have not."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":621.604,"endTime":623.614,"body":"if you've seen really cool"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":621.604,"endTime":623.614,"body":"things where you live, like we"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":623.614,"endTime":624.424,"body":"would love to hear about it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":624.424,"endTime":626.224,"body":"Like, come share it with us on Substack."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":626.254,"endTime":628.528,"body":"Like, if you're hearing this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":626.254,"endTime":628.528,"body":"podcast, there's already a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":628.528,"endTime":629.848,"body":"newsletter out for this today."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":629.848,"endTime":633.298,"body":"Go out there and comment on it and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":629.848,"endTime":633.298,"body":"share some interesting stories about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":633.568,"endTime":636.658,"body":"what your government is doing to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":633.568,"endTime":636.658,"body":"handle this modernization problem."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":637.271,"endTime":640.521,"body":"Yeah, really great"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":637.271,"endTime":640.521,"body":"coverage and I completely agree."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":640.641,"endTime":643.191,"body":"And Ben, do you wanna tell us a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":640.641,"endTime":643.191,"body":"little bit more about our last news"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":643.191,"endTime":646.911,"body":"story of the day, talking about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":643.191,"endTime":646.911,"body":"layoffs that have hit Microsoft?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":647.188,"endTime":647.578,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":647.608,"endTime":650.308,"body":"Yet another week, yet"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":647.608,"endTime":650.308,"body":"another round of layoffs."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":650.368,"endTime":653.753,"body":"I mean, it just feels to me like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":650.368,"endTime":653.753,"body":"this is Microsoft announcing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":653.826,"endTime":655.296,"body":"just their annual layoffs."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":655.696,"endTime":657.736,"body":"this year it was 3% of the workforce."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":657.736,"endTime":660.226,"body":"I think that was somewhere"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":657.736,"endTime":660.226,"body":"around six or 7,000 people."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":660.86,"endTime":665.5,"body":"again, it looks like the typical big"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":660.86,"endTime":665.5,"body":"tech layoff, not really based on like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":665.5,"endTime":668.14,"body":"performance or like strategic value."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":668.14,"endTime":669.91,"body":"It just kind of hits across the board."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":669.91,"endTime":673.12,"body":"it's basically just a, a ham"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":669.91,"endTime":673.12,"body":"fisted, cut across everything."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":673.12,"endTime":675.01,"body":"Like at least that's the way"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":673.12,"endTime":675.01,"body":"it looks to me on the outside."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":675.01,"endTime":677.585,"body":"I'm not saying that's exactly what it is."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":678.261,"endTime":681.261,"body":"you know, of course I empathize like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":678.261,"endTime":681.261,"body":"it, it really sucks to be one of those"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":681.261,"endTime":685.491,"body":"workers that wakes up one day and finds"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":681.261,"endTime":685.491,"body":"out that your, your job doesn't exist."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":685.491,"endTime":688.731,"body":"And it's kind of the become"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":685.491,"endTime":688.731,"body":"this, this unfortunate reality"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":688.791,"endTime":691.071,"body":"of working in big technology."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":691.701,"endTime":695.151,"body":"But we're also seeing other companies"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":691.701,"endTime":695.151,"body":"like, not necessarily layoff right"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":695.151,"endTime":698.691,"body":"now, but like Amazon just announced"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":695.151,"endTime":698.691,"body":"some new pay structure that."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":699.211,"endTime":703.201,"body":"the way they try to position is that it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":699.211,"endTime":703.201,"body":"will consistently favor high performing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":703.201,"endTime":707.401,"body":"employees at the expense of what they"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":703.201,"endTime":707.401,"body":"designate as low performing employees."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":707.851,"endTime":710.911,"body":"Uh, and of course, if you know anything"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":707.851,"endTime":710.911,"body":"about Amazon, they have a very, they"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":710.911,"endTime":714.901,"body":"have a habit of like, effectively"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":710.911,"endTime":714.901,"body":"stack ranking a lot of their employees."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":715.201,"endTime":718.338,"body":"Um, I don't know if it's, strict"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":715.201,"endTime":718.338,"body":"stack ranking, but it certainly"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":718.338,"endTime":719.928,"body":"looks a lot, a lot like it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":720.543,"endTime":723.583,"body":"But I kind of get the sense that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":720.543,"endTime":723.583,"body":"big tech is losing their luster."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":723.643,"endTime":725.598,"body":"Like what do you think about that, Andrew?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":726.398,"endTime":729.128,"body":"I think that the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":726.398,"endTime":729.128,"body":"perception of these like cushy tech"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":729.128,"endTime":733.088,"body":"jobs with the benefits has definitely"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":729.128,"endTime":733.088,"body":"been eroded, since the pandemic,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":733.088,"endTime":734.558,"body":"maybe even a little bit before."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":734.855,"endTime":735.145,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":735.968,"endTime":737.438,"body":"there was a time maybe"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":737.49,"endTime":737.52,"body":"I."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":737.648,"endTime":740.918,"body":"like a decade ago where"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":737.648,"endTime":740.918,"body":"those jobs were seen as places where"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":740.918,"endTime":744.208,"body":"you could build that expertise and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":740.918,"endTime":744.208,"body":"get paid really well and work in a."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":744.233,"endTime":748.533,"body":"Big office with lots of benefits and just"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":744.233,"endTime":748.533,"body":"have, may, maybe you don't have that work"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":748.533,"endTime":752.493,"body":"life balance that other industries do, but"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":748.533,"endTime":752.493,"body":"because you were showered in all of these"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":752.523,"endTime":754.023,"body":"amazing benefits that other industries."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":754.613,"endTime":758.003,"body":"Did not have, it became a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":754.613,"endTime":758.003,"body":"unique haven where people really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":758.003,"endTime":759.713,"body":"strived to kind of achieve it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":759.923,"endTime":760.313,"body":"But"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":760.67,"endTime":760.96,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":761.153,"endTime":764.903,"body":"the wake of all of these"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":761.153,"endTime":764.903,"body":"layoffs and return the office mandates,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":764.903,"endTime":769.283,"body":"which are kind of like soft layoffs and,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":764.903,"endTime":769.283,"body":"and everything in between, along with of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":769.283,"endTime":773.423,"body":"course the pandemic, the shuttering of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":769.283,"endTime":773.423,"body":"a lot of those offices, the, the closing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":773.423,"endTime":776.693,"body":"of a lot of like the food catering and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":773.423,"endTime":776.693,"body":"like the free drinks or whatever the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":776.693,"endTime":782.223,"body":"case, like all of those shiny things"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":776.693,"endTime":782.223,"body":"that made tech so cool to race to, to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":782.223,"endTime":786.533,"body":"try to be in these big, companies like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":782.223,"endTime":786.533,"body":"a fang or something they kind of eroded."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":786.563,"endTime":789.633,"body":"And what, what's happened is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":786.563,"endTime":789.633,"body":"in that decade, you know, time,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":789.633,"endTime":790.293,"body":"doesn't time doesn't stop."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":790.533,"endTime":792.723,"body":"So you have new folks"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":790.533,"endTime":792.723,"body":"entering the workforce."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":792.773,"endTime":796.583,"body":"You have Gen Z now entering the workforce,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":792.773,"endTime":796.583,"body":"and they have an entirely different"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":796.583,"endTime":801.473,"body":"perception about careers and traditional"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":796.583,"endTime":801.473,"body":"jobs than other generations do."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":801.733,"endTime":804.433,"body":"you know, this new wave of Gen Z"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":801.733,"endTime":804.433,"body":"workers, they don't see traditional"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":804.433,"endTime":808.813,"body":"careers in tech as those safe havens,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":804.433,"endTime":808.813,"body":"and they don't see it as a safe bet"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":808.813,"endTime":810.913,"body":"for their skills or their career."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":811.123,"endTime":813.433,"body":"In fact, the best thing that they"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":811.123,"endTime":813.433,"body":"think they can do for themselves,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":813.433,"endTime":817.093,"body":"which I agree, is to build their"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":813.433,"endTime":817.093,"body":"own expertise and their own brand,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":817.093,"endTime":818.863,"body":"because you can never lay yourself off."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":819.103,"endTime":819.883,"body":"And so."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":820.138,"endTime":825.058,"body":"I think that that is like an ultimately a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":820.138,"endTime":825.058,"body":"mindset shift for how people are entering"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":825.058,"endTime":828.568,"body":"the tech world, and it's something that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":825.058,"endTime":828.568,"body":"leaders need to consider when they think"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":828.568,"endTime":831.718,"body":"about their job postings or going out"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":828.568,"endTime":831.718,"body":"there and trying to bring in new folks"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":831.718,"endTime":834.598,"body":"that there's not this defacto Oh, cool."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":834.598,"endTime":836.998,"body":"It's software engineering"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":834.598,"endTime":836.998,"body":"appeal to it anymore."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":837.298,"endTime":840.508,"body":"and especially if you're in an"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":837.298,"endTime":840.508,"body":"environment where layoffs are frequent"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":840.718,"endTime":843.274,"body":"or possible, there are anxieties."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":843.434,"endTime":846.014,"body":"involved with that too, that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":843.434,"endTime":846.014,"body":"are important to address."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":846.224,"endTime":850.004,"body":"Don't just let it be this elephant"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":846.224,"endTime":850.004,"body":"in the room that no one talks about."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":850.526,"endTime":852.996,"body":"Yeah, you made a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":850.526,"endTime":852.996,"body":"good point about these traditionally"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":852.996,"endTime":856.946,"body":"being viewed as like A career builder,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":852.996,"endTime":856.946,"body":"a resume builder, and I wonder if"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":856.946,"endTime":860.516,"body":"the fact that they've had more than a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":856.946,"endTime":860.516,"body":"decade at this point of that sort of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":860.516,"endTime":864.771,"body":"status, if maybe they've attracted like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":860.516,"endTime":864.771,"body":"the wrong types of people, like people"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":864.771,"endTime":868.891,"body":"who aren't there because they want to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":864.771,"endTime":868.891,"body":"work at Microsoft or at at Amazon or"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":868.891,"endTime":872.491,"body":"Google, but people that just wanna work"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":868.891,"endTime":872.491,"body":"there so that they can get to the next."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":872.501,"endTime":877.011,"body":"Gig that will pay them more, give them"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":872.501,"endTime":877.011,"body":"more recognition or, or whatever have you."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":877.671,"endTime":880.918,"body":"But I also feel like we're in a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":877.671,"endTime":880.918,"body":"period where I. and this comes in"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":880.918,"endTime":884.308,"body":"cycles, but right now we're going"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":880.918,"endTime":884.308,"body":"through a period of everyone being"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":884.308,"endTime":888.658,"body":"focused heavily on efficiency"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":884.308,"endTime":888.658,"body":"rather than like trying to grow."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":888.658,"endTime":891.508,"body":"Like it's, it's growth through"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":888.658,"endTime":891.508,"body":"efficiency rather than just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":891.508,"endTime":892.978,"body":"growing through growth, you know?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":893.391,"endTime":893.481,"body":"right."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":893.608,"endTime":895.648,"body":"and I wonder"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":893.608,"endTime":895.648,"body":"how much of this also is like."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":896.068,"endTime":900.118,"body":"Just the writing on the wall,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":896.068,"endTime":900.118,"body":"that that like AI driven teams are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":900.178,"endTime":904.918,"body":"going to scale at a much faster"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":900.178,"endTime":904.918,"body":"rate than human driven teams."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":904.918,"endTime":909.088,"body":"Like if you're relying on increasing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":904.918,"endTime":909.088,"body":"human head count to to scale, like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":909.088,"endTime":912.388,"body":"that's not nearly as, it's not gonna"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":909.088,"endTime":912.388,"body":"be nearly as impactful as teams that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":912.388,"endTime":914.338,"body":"can use AI to scale their efforts."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":914.848,"endTime":917.788,"body":"You know, small teams have always had"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":914.848,"endTime":917.788,"body":"this advantage of being more nimble"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":917.818,"endTime":921.178,"body":"than the large corporations, but they've"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":917.818,"endTime":921.178,"body":"never had the advantage of being able"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":921.178,"endTime":923.878,"body":"to move faster than the big companies."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":924.148,"endTime":927.718,"body":"And AI is kind of leveling the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":924.148,"endTime":927.718,"body":"playing field on that to some extent."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":927.768,"endTime":931.878,"body":"we've already seen how some companies"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":927.768,"endTime":931.878,"body":"are refusing to hire new roles."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":931.948,"endTime":934.828,"body":"if it's a job that could"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":931.948,"endTime":934.828,"body":"be automated through ai."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":935.133,"endTime":937.923,"body":"and maybe I'm just biased 'cause,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":935.133,"endTime":937.923,"body":"'cause I work for a small company,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":937.923,"endTime":940.443,"body":"but it, it really does feel like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":937.923,"endTime":940.443,"body":"small companies have the biggest"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":940.443,"endTime":943.113,"body":"potential for growth in the AI era."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":943.113,"endTime":946.573,"body":"And maybe we're seeing big tech"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":943.113,"endTime":946.573,"body":"respond to that by trying to make"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":946.573,"endTime":949.003,"body":"their teams smaller and more nimble."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":949.696,"endTime":950.776,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":951.613,"endTime":952.873,"body":"So Andrew,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":951.613,"endTime":952.873,"body":"who's our guest today."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":953.656,"endTime":954.886,"body":"Yeah, in just a moment."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":954.946,"endTime":959.146,"body":"Ben and I both are sitting down with"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":954.946,"endTime":959.146,"body":"Kelly Vaughn of Zapier and we're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":959.146,"endTime":962.956,"body":"talking about life after burnout"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":959.146,"endTime":962.956,"body":"and putting the breaks on ambition."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":963.136,"endTime":964.156,"body":"You don't wanna miss this one."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":965.507,"endTime":966.947,"body":"Are your"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":965.507,"endTime":966.947,"body":"code reviews slowing you down?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":967.337,"endTime":970.907,"body":"With LinearB automations, you can"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":967.337,"endTime":970.907,"body":"transform the way Engineering teams"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":970.907,"endTime":975.444,"body":"review code with automatic AI powered"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":970.907,"endTime":975.444,"body":"PR descriptions and code reviews."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":975.474,"endTime":978.654,"body":"Your developers get instant"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":975.474,"endTime":978.654,"body":"feedback on every poll request."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":979.194,"endTime":982.164,"body":"Combine that with smart AI"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":979.194,"endTime":982.164,"body":"orchestration and you can cut the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":982.164,"endTime":984.354,"body":"noise and boost your productivity."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":985.034,"endTime":988.949,"body":"LinearB AI flags bugs, suggests"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":985.034,"endTime":988.949,"body":"improvements, and keeps your"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":988.949,"endTime":992.159,"body":"team focused on what really"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":988.949,"endTime":992.159,"body":"matters building great software."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":992.579,"endTime":997.05,"body":"What's really cool is LinearB outperformed"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":992.579,"endTime":997.05,"body":"GitHub copilot in a recent head-to-head"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":997.05,"endTime":1001.76,"body":"With ikea's software engineering team,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":997.05,"endTime":1001.76,"body":"LinearB provides better context to where"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1001.76,"endTime":1004.01,"body":"reviews with more robust orchestration."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1004.34,"endTime":1007.67,"body":"Head over to LinearB.io to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1004.34,"endTime":1007.67,"body":"learn more about incorporating"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1007.7,"endTime":1009.26,"body":"AI into your code reviews."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1010.788,"endTime":1014.328,"body":"So we're back at Dev Interrupted"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1010.788,"endTime":1014.328,"body":"with a veteran, Kelly Vaughn, senior"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1014.328,"endTime":1017.748,"body":"engineering manager at Zapier,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1014.328,"endTime":1017.748,"body":"and author of the Modern Leader"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1017.748,"endTime":1019.548,"body":"and after burnout newsletters."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1019.818,"endTime":1021.828,"body":"Kelly, it's been such a long time."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1021.828,"endTime":1022.729,"body":"Welcome back to the show."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1023.391,"endTime":1026.151,"body":"Thank you so"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1023.391,"endTime":1026.151,"body":"much, and I'm going to start"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1026.151,"endTime":1027.711,"body":"you off with a little lesson."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1028.293,"endTime":1028.513,"body":"Oh."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1028.611,"endTime":1032.301,"body":"pronunciation of the company"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1028.611,"endTime":1032.301,"body":"is Zapier, and you can always remember."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1032.301,"endTime":1033.921,"body":"Remember that Zapier makes you happier."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1034.533,"endTime":1035.043,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1035.133,"endTime":1037.293,"body":"Calling me out right at"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1035.133,"endTime":1037.293,"body":"the start of the episode."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1037.611,"endTime":1038.481,"body":"This is a new title."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1038.481,"endTime":1041.901,"body":"Every time I've been on here, I, I"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1038.481,"endTime":1041.901,"body":"had my director of engineering title"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1041.901,"endTime":1043.551,"body":"at Spot AI, so this is all new."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1043.698,"endTime":1044.868,"body":"I had to squeeze that one in there."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1045.66,"endTime":1047.4,"body":"All right,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1045.66,"endTime":1047.4,"body":"well, we'll, I'll do my best to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1047.4,"endTime":1048.57,"body":"get it right the rest of the show."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1048.57,"endTime":1049.59,"body":"I can't make promises."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1049.978,"endTime":1050.668,"body":"So, yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1050.668,"endTime":1053.008,"body":"So, well, to kick things off, like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1050.668,"endTime":1053.008,"body":"formally, I wanna congratulate"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1053.008,"endTime":1054.118,"body":"you for this new position."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1054.212,"endTime":1056.042,"body":"Andrew and I are both"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1054.212,"endTime":1056.042,"body":"big fans of the company."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1056.042,"endTime":1057.662,"body":"We've both used it for quite a while."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1057.962,"endTime":1059.162,"body":"Uh, sounds like you have as well."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1059.162,"endTime":1060.152,"body":"So that, that's pretty awesome."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1060.152,"endTime":1062.312,"body":"And we will maybe dive a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1060.152,"endTime":1062.312,"body":"little bit into your work."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1062.556,"endTime":1066.316,"body":"but first, if you've been following the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1062.556,"endTime":1066.316,"body":"show for a few years, you might remember"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1066.316,"endTime":1070.516,"body":"that Kelly is a trained therapist"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1066.316,"endTime":1070.516,"body":"and because of this background, we've"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1070.606,"endTime":1075.346,"body":"always appreciated your insight on"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1070.606,"endTime":1075.346,"body":"the more human aspects of engineering."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1075.676,"endTime":1079.576,"body":"And in fact, your episode from 2022,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1075.676,"endTime":1079.576,"body":"which was titled Treating Devs like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1079.576,"endTime":1083.206,"body":"Human Beings, is actually one of our"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1079.576,"endTime":1083.206,"body":"most popular episodes of all time."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1083.206,"endTime":1086.476,"body":"So it's clearly a subject that our"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1083.206,"endTime":1086.476,"body":"audience like really cares about."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1086.836,"endTime":1088.486,"body":"And is"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1086.836,"endTime":1088.486,"body":"popular for a reason."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1088.486,"endTime":1091.186,"body":"You know, topics like burnout, which"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1088.486,"endTime":1091.186,"body":"is what we're gonna cover today."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1091.426,"endTime":1094.876,"body":"They've always resonated really deeply"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1091.426,"endTime":1094.876,"body":"with a Dev Interrupted audience."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1095.326,"endTime":1098.986,"body":"But what makes today's conversation"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1095.326,"endTime":1098.986,"body":"a little different is that it's not"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1098.986,"endTime":1103.606,"body":"about recognizing burnout on your team"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1098.986,"endTime":1103.606,"body":"or in someone that you manage and that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1103.606,"endTime":1108.556,"body":"capacity, but it's about recognizing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1103.606,"endTime":1108.556,"body":"burnout in yourself and seeing burnout"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1108.556,"endTime":1110.206,"body":"when you look in the mirror ultimately."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1110.386,"endTime":1112.726,"body":"And Kelly, you wrote"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1110.386,"endTime":1112.726,"body":"about this in a blog post."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1113.121,"endTime":1116.091,"body":"Uh, about burnout and leaving"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1113.121,"endTime":1116.091,"body":"your previous job, and it's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1116.391,"endTime":1117.801,"body":"an incredibly candid post."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1118.041,"endTime":1120.231,"body":"We definitely encourage those"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1118.041,"endTime":1120.231,"body":"listening to go check it out."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1120.231,"endTime":1123.171,"body":"We're gonna have links to it and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1120.231,"endTime":1123.171,"body":"we'll be discussing it today."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1123.381,"endTime":1126.841,"body":"And we wanted to have you on the show"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1123.381,"endTime":1126.841,"body":"to, see what would motivate you to be"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1126.841,"endTime":1130.231,"body":"so open and candid about this experience"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1126.841,"endTime":1130.231,"body":"and what we can all learn from it."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1130.531,"endTime":1134.221,"body":"and allows us to ask a broader question,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1130.531,"endTime":1134.221,"body":"you know, and, and the excitement"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1134.221,"endTime":1135.511,"body":"in the, in the hype around ai."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1135.511,"endTime":1140.011,"body":"Are we forgetting to address"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1135.511,"endTime":1140.011,"body":"fundamental age old human challenges?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1140.346,"endTime":1143.256,"body":"Within our teams and cultures,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1140.346,"endTime":1143.256,"body":"AKA, are we moving so fast?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1143.256,"endTime":1144.426,"body":"We're forgetting the basics."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1144.771,"endTime":1145.071,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1145.101,"endTime":1145.941,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1145.941,"endTime":1150.561,"body":"And I'm excited to talk about this because"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1145.941,"endTime":1150.561,"body":"as you said, we had a conversation about"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1150.561,"endTime":1155.271,"body":"it back in 2022, and as somebody who, as"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1150.561,"endTime":1155.271,"body":"a trained therapist, I'm very familiar"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1155.271,"endTime":1157.701,"body":"with the signs of burnout, and yet."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1157.866,"endTime":1159.666,"body":"I fell victim to it myself."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1160.116,"endTime":1162.936,"body":"And it also goes to show that"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1160.116,"endTime":1162.936,"body":"even therapists need therapists"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1163.146,"endTime":1167.256,"body":"because we all need that third"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1163.146,"endTime":1167.256,"body":"party to remind us what's going on."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1167.256,"endTime":1169.47,"body":"So yeah, I'm, I'm super excited"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1167.256,"endTime":1169.47,"body":"to dig into this with you."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1170.224,"endTime":1172.804,"body":"one thing I wanted"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1170.224,"endTime":1172.804,"body":"to kick off with is, you shared a quote"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1172.804,"endTime":1176.312,"body":"about millennials who are climbing"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1172.804,"endTime":1176.312,"body":"the corporate ladder in their twenties"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1176.312,"endTime":1179.852,"body":"only to start climbing back down for"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1176.312,"endTime":1179.852,"body":"various reason in their thirties."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1179.852,"endTime":1184.362,"body":"So, how does this reflect the pressures"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1179.852,"endTime":1184.362,"body":"that you've observed or even experienced"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1184.362,"endTime":1185.532,"body":"within the engineering world?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1185.772,"endTime":1188.382,"body":"And, you know, particularly, I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1185.772,"endTime":1188.382,"body":"you might have some, some things to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1188.382,"endTime":1192.772,"body":"say around this, 10x engineer, like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1188.382,"endTime":1192.772,"body":"ideal statement that we have out there."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1193.06,"endTime":1194.52,"body":"Yeah, I love this quote."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1194.52,"endTime":1198.12,"body":"it forever will live rent free in"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1194.52,"endTime":1198.12,"body":"my head at this point just because"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1198.12,"endTime":1200.09,"body":"it's, it's very much where I'm at."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1200.09,"endTime":1203.87,"body":"You know, when you're in your twenties,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1200.09,"endTime":1203.87,"body":"you're promised all these great things."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1203.87,"endTime":1207.47,"body":"If you, if you work really hard, we can"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1203.87,"endTime":1207.47,"body":"go into a whole nother episode on all the"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1207.47,"endTime":1208.85,"body":"millennial promises that we've been made."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1209.27,"endTime":1212.33,"body":"but, you know, you, you"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1209.27,"endTime":1212.33,"body":"work really hard to."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1213.025,"endTime":1217.725,"body":"progress in your career and we grew"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1213.025,"endTime":1217.725,"body":"up and air quoting grew up there at a"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1217.725,"endTime":1220.875,"body":"time when the market was responding."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1220.875,"endTime":1225.745,"body":"So, positively to us getting"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1220.875,"endTime":1225.745,"body":"into engineering and the venture"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1225.745,"endTime":1227.065,"body":"money that was available."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1227.375,"endTime":1230.285,"body":"a ton of companies were hiring really"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1227.375,"endTime":1230.285,"body":"fast, which means people were moving"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1230.285,"endTime":1234.755,"body":"up really quickly and you saw all"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1230.285,"endTime":1234.755,"body":"these opportunities to, you know."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1235.08,"endTime":1239.34,"body":"Continue to grow in your own career,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1235.08,"endTime":1239.34,"body":"and as you continue to move up, you"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1239.34,"endTime":1243.93,"body":"kind of lose sight of where you came"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1239.34,"endTime":1243.93,"body":"from because you're moving so incredibly"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1243.93,"endTime":1247.26,"body":"quickly on this train that you"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1243.93,"endTime":1247.26,"body":"really need to hop off at some point."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1247.5,"endTime":1250.41,"body":"We don't take enough time to reflect"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1247.5,"endTime":1250.41,"body":"on where we've been and how we got"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1250.41,"endTime":1254.79,"body":"to where we are today, and we often"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1250.41,"endTime":1254.79,"body":"equate a lot of these things to skill."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1255.017,"endTime":1257.657,"body":"You know that I am very good at"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1255.017,"endTime":1257.657,"body":"my job and therefore I'm earning"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1257.657,"endTime":1262.667,"body":"these, these promotions and pay"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1257.657,"endTime":1262.667,"body":"raises and larger scopes of work."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1262.967,"endTime":1266.087,"body":"And in a way that is true, but"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1262.967,"endTime":1266.087,"body":"there's also a lot of luck that got"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1266.087,"endTime":1267.677,"body":"us to where we are today as well."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1267.737,"endTime":1268.397,"body":"And so."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1268.872,"endTime":1272.372,"body":"You know, now that we're in our"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1268.872,"endTime":1272.372,"body":"thirties and you know, of the varying"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1272.372,"endTime":1276.572,"body":"range for, for millennials, we've hit"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1272.372,"endTime":1276.572,"body":"this wall starting with the pandemic"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1276.572,"endTime":1281.012,"body":"and we're starting to see a very"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1276.572,"endTime":1281.012,"body":"different world in engineering where"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1281.282,"endTime":1282.902,"body":"we've been moving at lightning speed."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1282.902,"endTime":1286.822,"body":"Speed this entire time while the con,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1282.902,"endTime":1286.822,"body":"you know, the world continues to move"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1286.822,"endTime":1291.202,"body":"rapidly, especially in this age of ai,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1286.822,"endTime":1291.202,"body":"that we feel the need to keep up this"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1291.202,"endTime":1293.782,"body":"pace that is just impossible to do."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1293.992,"endTime":1298.372,"body":"We want to run, we want to run really"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1293.992,"endTime":1298.372,"body":"fast and continue to run forever."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1298.552,"endTime":1301.612,"body":"And it's just your, you can"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1298.552,"endTime":1301.612,"body":"only handle so much of that."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1301.612,"endTime":1307.847,"body":"I am, picking back up on running after"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1301.612,"endTime":1307.847,"body":"an injury that I had last year, and I, I"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1307.847,"endTime":1311.787,"body":"have to start trading for, I'm choosing"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1307.847,"endTime":1311.787,"body":"to, start trading for my first marathon."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1311.817,"endTime":1314.967,"body":"I'm running Detroit this year and"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1311.817,"endTime":1314.967,"body":"I've run half marathons before, but"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1314.967,"endTime":1318.327,"body":"because of this, this injury, I'm"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1314.967,"endTime":1318.327,"body":"basically starting from zero again, or"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1318.327,"endTime":1319.827,"body":"it feels like I'm starting from zero."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1320.097,"endTime":1324.327,"body":"So you have to intentionally slow"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1320.097,"endTime":1324.327,"body":"down in order to speed back up again."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1324.327,"endTime":1327.357,"body":"And we are now moving into this"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1324.327,"endTime":1327.357,"body":"phase where we are also having"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1327.357,"endTime":1328.817,"body":"to intentionally slow down."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1329.027,"endTime":1332.567,"body":"Remember who we are as a company or"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1329.027,"endTime":1332.567,"body":"who we are as engineers and figure"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1332.567,"endTime":1335.717,"body":"out, you know, what is actually"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1332.567,"endTime":1335.717,"body":"gonna get us to where we want to be"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1335.717,"endTime":1337.402,"body":"and what do we want to do as well."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1338.734,"endTime":1340.384,"body":"Yeah, it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1338.734,"endTime":1340.384,"body":"actually reminds me of, one of my"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1340.384,"endTime":1342.364,"body":"favorite songs from The White Stripes."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1342.364,"endTime":1343.474,"body":"Just a random shout out."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1343.474,"endTime":1348.171,"body":"But, it's about how we all get started"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1343.474,"endTime":1348.171,"body":"out in little rooms, with few resources."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1348.171,"endTime":1348.741,"body":"Not a lot."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1348.801,"endTime":1352.851,"body":"available to us and it's really just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1348.801,"endTime":1352.851,"body":"us with our own capabilities and, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1352.851,"endTime":1356.631,"body":"know, as you level up, you get bigger and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1352.851,"endTime":1356.631,"body":"bigger rooms with more resources and more"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1356.631,"endTime":1360.651,"body":"capabilities, and it can be really helpful"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1356.631,"endTime":1360.651,"body":"to just stop for a moment and think like,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1360.651,"endTime":1362.571,"body":"how did I get started in that little room?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1362.571,"endTime":1365.211,"body":"And like, what can I"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1362.571,"endTime":1365.211,"body":"learn to apply to today?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1365.689,"endTime":1368.029,"body":"Yeah, and it's not"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1365.689,"endTime":1368.029,"body":"only like, how did I get started,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1368.029,"endTime":1370.849,"body":"but am I, is what I'm doing"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1368.029,"endTime":1370.849,"body":"today what I want to be doing?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1371.239,"endTime":1374.869,"body":"Because you know, you blink and suddenly"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1371.239,"endTime":1374.869,"body":"you're taking on more responsibility"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1374.869,"endTime":1376.399,"body":"that you never really wanted."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1376.639,"endTime":1379.489,"body":"That feels almost like a left"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1376.639,"endTime":1379.489,"body":"turn from your original career."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1379.489,"endTime":1381.469,"body":"And in some cases that's fine."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1381.469,"endTime":1384.559,"body":"People change careers all the time, but"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1381.469,"endTime":1384.559,"body":"you do need to sit down and reflect,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1384.559,"endTime":1386.209,"body":"is this actually what you want to do?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1386.549,"endTime":1388.919,"body":"by the time I left Spot, I was overseeing."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1389.134,"endTime":1391.744,"body":"engineering for our video"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1389.134,"endTime":1391.744,"body":"management system product."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1391.804,"endTime":1393.784,"body":"I was overseeing product"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1391.804,"endTime":1393.784,"body":"for that same product."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1393.994,"endTime":1398.374,"body":"I was also our head of IT and I was also"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1393.994,"endTime":1398.374,"body":"overseeing security in GRC doing all of"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1398.374,"endTime":1402.754,"body":"our SOC two and HIPAA audits, all of our"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1398.374,"endTime":1402.754,"body":"security reviews for enterprise customers."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1402.754,"endTime":1405.754,"body":"I was going on site with"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1402.754,"endTime":1405.754,"body":"customers to close deals and."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1406.854,"endTime":1409.524,"body":"When I started as a director"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1406.854,"endTime":1409.524,"body":"of engineering, obviously"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1409.584,"endTime":1411.834,"body":"this is a lot broader scope."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1411.864,"endTime":1415.914,"body":"This is four different jobs in one, and"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1411.864,"endTime":1415.914,"body":"so that is really what gave me pause"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1415.914,"endTime":1419.304,"body":"and like, am I actually doing what it,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1415.914,"endTime":1419.304,"body":"like what do I want to do with my life?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1419.304,"endTime":1420.804,"body":"Who do I want to be when I grow up?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1420.954,"endTime":1422.604,"body":"Because I don't think it's four people."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1423.185,"endTime":1425.195,"body":"It hits a certain part,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1423.185,"endTime":1425.195,"body":"especially when you start growing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1425.195,"endTime":1428.315,"body":"in skills and responsibilities and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1425.195,"endTime":1428.315,"body":"as you're saying, like you're moving"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1428.315,"endTime":1431.495,"body":"faster and faster, taking advantage"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1428.315,"endTime":1431.495,"body":"of like this Lightspeed opportunity"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1431.495,"endTime":1434.195,"body":"in front of you, you'd be silly not"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1431.495,"endTime":1434.195,"body":"to jump into that jet stream and just"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1434.195,"endTime":1436.205,"body":"kind of see where it could take you."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1436.205,"endTime":1439.665,"body":"But the further you go down"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1436.205,"endTime":1439.665,"body":"that, and the more you accumulate"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1439.725,"endTime":1442.565,"body":"in terms of experiences and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1439.725,"endTime":1442.565,"body":"responsibilities, the more doors."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1442.6,"endTime":1448.36,"body":"That actually close on you, and that if"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1442.6,"endTime":1448.36,"body":"those doors are closing in those doors"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1448.36,"endTime":1452.29,"body":"or doors that you wanted to go through,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1448.36,"endTime":1452.29,"body":"then now you're having to shift course."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1452.29,"endTime":1454.63,"body":"And it's because of just the things"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1452.29,"endTime":1454.63,"body":"that you're doing, not because of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1454.63,"endTime":1456.67,"body":"the aspirations that you've set."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1456.67,"endTime":1460.64,"body":"And this is how I think folks get on"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1456.67,"endTime":1460.64,"body":"these like, in a, in a train mindset"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1460.64,"endTime":1462.175,"body":"of like, I'm going as fast as I can."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1462.175,"endTime":1463.975,"body":"I'm accumulating all of these experiences."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1463.975,"endTime":1465.835,"body":"I'm gonna build, build, build,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1463.975,"endTime":1465.835,"body":"and do all these things."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1465.835,"endTime":1467.725,"body":"And then before you know,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1465.835,"endTime":1467.725,"body":"it, just like you described,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1468.085,"endTime":1469.435,"body":"you're doing like four jobs."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1469.435,"endTime":1470.335,"body":"Like I relate with that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1470.75,"endTime":1471.41,"body":"So much."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1471.41,"endTime":1474.59,"body":"Like I, I've had a job I've done before"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1471.41,"endTime":1474.59,"body":"where you start doing one thing really"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1474.59,"endTime":1478.88,"body":"well and then everyone recognizes and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1474.59,"endTime":1478.88,"body":"sees how good you are at that one thing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1478.88,"endTime":1480.77,"body":"They must be good at a lot"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1478.88,"endTime":1480.77,"body":"of other things, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1480.77,"endTime":1481.16,"body":"And then you"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1481.165,"endTime":1481.385,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1481.43,"endTime":1483.35,"body":"getting more"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1481.43,"endTime":1483.35,"body":"responsibilities and you're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1483.35,"endTime":1484.25,"body":"like, oh, this is great."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1484.25,"endTime":1487.13,"body":"I'm gonna cut my teeth on this and on"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1484.25,"endTime":1487.13,"body":"this, I'm gonna know how to do this."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1487.13,"endTime":1489.74,"body":"and a lot of times it's so great,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1487.13,"endTime":1489.74,"body":"it gets you way ahead of other"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1489.74,"endTime":1493.44,"body":"people, but for yourself, it closes"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1489.74,"endTime":1493.44,"body":"doors on maybe things you would've"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1493.44,"endTime":1495.33,"body":"rather been spending your time on"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1495.672,"endTime":1496.392,"body":"exactly."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1496.392,"endTime":1501.072,"body":"And, and to add onto that, I"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1496.392,"endTime":1501.072,"body":"think we fear those closing doors."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1501.202,"endTime":1505.042,"body":"Every time we say yes to something,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1501.202,"endTime":1505.042,"body":"we're saying no to many other things"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1505.042,"endTime":1506.932,"body":"because you can only take on so much."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1507.167,"endTime":1507.457,"body":"yeah."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1507.832,"endTime":1508.942,"body":"we fear what."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1509.312,"endTime":1512.222,"body":"Those nos are, or what"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1509.312,"endTime":1512.222,"body":"those nos could have been."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1512.522,"endTime":1516.212,"body":"And we get so single track on what"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1512.522,"endTime":1516.212,"body":"we're thinking about and where we"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1516.212,"endTime":1519.572,"body":"want to go, yet we're always thinking"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1516.212,"endTime":1519.572,"body":"about what we're missing out on."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1519.762,"endTime":1524.202,"body":"and this is why, you know, taking that"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1519.762,"endTime":1524.202,"body":"moment to pause and sit back for a"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1524.202,"endTime":1528.972,"body":"second allows you to reflect on which"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1524.202,"endTime":1528.972,"body":"doors have closed, which doors do I"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1528.972,"endTime":1532.692,"body":"wish had opened in the past that I could"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1528.972,"endTime":1532.692,"body":"have gone through, and which ones am I"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1532.692,"endTime":1537.482,"body":"grateful that I did go down, you know,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1532.692,"endTime":1537.482,"body":"like, I'm a recovering entrepreneur."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1537.482,"endTime":1541.082,"body":"As I say, I have a lot of"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1537.482,"endTime":1541.082,"body":"experience running companies."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1541.412,"endTime":1545.132,"body":"I am now working for somebody"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1541.412,"endTime":1545.132,"body":"else's company, and while I don't"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1545.132,"endTime":1548.582,"body":"have aspirations to start my own"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1545.132,"endTime":1548.582,"body":"company anytime soon, it's possible"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1548.582,"endTime":1549.632,"body":"that it might in the future."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1549.782,"endTime":1554.342,"body":"There is so much I learned from that"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1549.782,"endTime":1554.342,"body":"journey that I take into my everyday work"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1554.342,"endTime":1559.322,"body":"working for somebody else, and that is a"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1554.342,"endTime":1559.322,"body":"huge value add for me as an employee as"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1559.322,"endTime":1563.162,"body":"well, to really understand the business"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1559.322,"endTime":1563.162,"body":"and customer side of things, even if"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1563.162,"endTime":1564.812,"body":"it's not a core part of my job today."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1565.232,"endTime":1567.812,"body":"I wanna ask too, in that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1565.232,"endTime":1567.812,"body":"environment where you, you know, Ben"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1567.812,"endTime":1571.336,"body":"defined about like the 10x engineering"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1567.812,"endTime":1571.336,"body":"culture, in that environment, there's a"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1571.336,"endTime":1573.226,"body":"lot of external and internal pressures."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1573.226,"endTime":1575.866,"body":"You and I have talked a bit about now"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1573.226,"endTime":1575.866,"body":"about like those internal pressures of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1575.866,"endTime":1580.071,"body":"like, I'm gonna go as fast as I can, but"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1575.866,"endTime":1580.071,"body":"zooming in on those external pressure"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1580.101,"endTime":1583.221,"body":"pressures, those things that happen in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1580.101,"endTime":1583.221,"body":"our environment, in the organization that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1583.221,"endTime":1588.891,"body":"we're in, you know, what kind of demands"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1583.221,"endTime":1588.891,"body":"or norms around this 10x engineer culture"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1590.151,"endTime":1593.971,"body":"drives towards that burnout that you saw"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1590.151,"endTime":1593.971,"body":"in yourself and that others' experience."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":1594.441,"endTime":1594.541,"body":"I."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1594.566,"endTime":1597.116,"body":"think what we're"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1594.566,"endTime":1597.116,"body":"seeing today with AI is a"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1597.116,"endTime":1599.786,"body":"massive, massive example of this."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1600.036,"endTime":1601.836,"body":"I saw it at my previous company."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1601.836,"endTime":1603.966,"body":"I can see it in my current company."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1603.966,"endTime":1607.506,"body":"And it's not a flaw necessarily,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1603.966,"endTime":1607.506,"body":"but it's just, you know,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1607.506,"endTime":1608.766,"body":"it's part of the hype train."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1608.816,"endTime":1611.546,"body":"there are so many really cool"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1608.816,"endTime":1611.546,"body":"things that we can do with ai."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1611.546,"endTime":1614.306,"body":"It is still nascent all things considered."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1614.366,"endTime":1617.366,"body":"You know, when you look back at how"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1614.366,"endTime":1617.366,"body":"long HTML has been a thing, and we're"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1617.366,"endTime":1621.056,"body":"learning so much as we go, but it also"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1617.366,"endTime":1621.056,"body":"means that if you're not continuously"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1621.056,"endTime":1622.766,"body":"learning, you're falling behind."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1623.156,"endTime":1627.326,"body":"And it's easy to fall into that trap to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1623.156,"endTime":1627.326,"body":"say, well, I have to learn everything"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1627.326,"endTime":1630.726,"body":"available to me, and I have to keep up"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1627.326,"endTime":1630.726,"body":"with whatever, is trending in the market."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1630.726,"endTime":1633.426,"body":"You know, understanding MCP, for example."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1633.636,"endTime":1634.926,"body":"What in the world is that?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1634.926,"endTime":1636.181,"body":"Do I need to learn this?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1636.181,"endTime":1637.951,"body":"Is this actually beneficial for me?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1637.981,"endTime":1639.661,"body":"I think it's pretty cool personally."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1639.851,"endTime":1644.441,"body":"and Zapier's, MCP little plug there is"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1639.851,"endTime":1644.441,"body":"also really cool that we have something"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1644.441,"endTime":1646.571,"body":"actually official at the company as well."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1646.821,"endTime":1648.771,"body":"but these kinds of things"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1646.821,"endTime":1648.771,"body":"can fall into a trap."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1648.801,"endTime":1651.921,"body":"And, and you can also see it, when"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1648.801,"endTime":1651.921,"body":"you're looking from the outside looking"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1651.921,"endTime":1654.591,"body":"in, this can affect your own job."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1655.116,"endTime":1658.806,"body":"Because you can feel like you're suddenly"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1655.116,"endTime":1658.806,"body":"having to pivot again and again and again."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1658.866,"endTime":1660.456,"body":"Like what is actually on the roadmap?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1660.606,"endTime":1662.466,"body":"What is gonna be most"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1660.606,"endTime":1662.466,"body":"important to our customers?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1662.466,"endTime":1664.026,"body":"What are customers asking for?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1664.266,"endTime":1667.296,"body":"And customers, especially your early"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1664.266,"endTime":1667.296,"body":"adopters, they're always gonna be"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1667.296,"endTime":1668.586,"body":"like, oh, well I heard about this."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1668.586,"endTime":1670.026,"body":"Are you doing anything with this?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1670.266,"endTime":1673.206,"body":"And somebody might be like,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1670.266,"endTime":1673.206,"body":"oh yes, we absolutely are."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1673.206,"endTime":1675.546,"body":"When we had absolutely no"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1673.206,"endTime":1675.546,"body":"plans to do that, and suddenly."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1675.811,"endTime":1680.911,"body":"You are having to adapt your work and"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1675.811,"endTime":1680.911,"body":"you can leverage AI for your day to day."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1680.911,"endTime":1684.811,"body":"And I highly encourage everybody to find"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1680.911,"endTime":1684.811,"body":"ways to leverage AI for your day to day."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1684.991,"endTime":1689.281,"body":"But when it becomes all encompassing"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1684.991,"endTime":1689.281,"body":"as like this is now your culture as"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1689.281,"endTime":1694.231,"body":"a company, it can feel like you are"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1689.281,"endTime":1694.231,"body":"moving at a 10x pace and you need that"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1694.231,"endTime":1698.806,"body":"time to slow down because I think we've"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1694.231,"endTime":1698.806,"body":"all experienced that, the faster you"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1698.806,"endTime":1701.356,"body":"move with whatever you're building,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1698.806,"endTime":1701.356,"body":"especially on the engineering side"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1701.356,"endTime":1705.196,"body":"of things, you start to have to make"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1701.356,"endTime":1705.196,"body":"intentional trade-offs, and typically"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1705.316,"endTime":1707.566,"body":"the first thing to go is test coverage."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1707.716,"endTime":1711.926,"body":"I've seen this again and again and again,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1707.716,"endTime":1711.926,"body":"And so if you are trying to build a"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1711.926,"endTime":1717.566,"body":"product that is supposed to continuously"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1711.926,"endTime":1717.566,"body":"support a large number of customers, and"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1717.566,"endTime":1722.576,"body":"you're starting to reduce test coverage in"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1717.566,"endTime":1722.576,"body":"favor of building faster, you're going to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1722.576,"endTime":1724.286,"body":"start to feel the ripple effects of that."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1724.556,"endTime":1729.656,"body":"And it is very demoralizing as an"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1724.556,"endTime":1729.656,"body":"engineering team to constantly hear"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1729.656,"endTime":1732.776,"body":"about the complaints of, this doesn't"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1729.656,"endTime":1732.776,"body":"work and this doesn't work, and this is"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1732.776,"endTime":1734.246,"body":"broken, and this looks kind of funny."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1734.486,"endTime":1736.196,"body":"When are you gonna spend"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1734.486,"endTime":1736.196,"body":"time working on this?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1736.196,"endTime":1739.371,"body":"When you're getting a lot of"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1736.196,"endTime":1739.371,"body":"top-down pressure to continue to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1739.371,"endTime":1743.481,"body":"build the next thing, and that"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1739.371,"endTime":1743.481,"body":"is how people end up burning out."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1744.316,"endTime":1747.766,"body":"whenever I unlock"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1744.316,"endTime":1747.766,"body":"like a new workflow with ai, like, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1747.766,"endTime":1750.316,"body":"know, I'm guilty of this, the first"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1747.766,"endTime":1750.316,"body":"thing that comes to mind is like, how"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1750.316,"endTime":1754.786,"body":"can I now move as quickly as possible"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1750.316,"endTime":1754.786,"body":"with this workflow that I've unlocked?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1754.786,"endTime":1756.886,"body":"And you know, the problem is that if"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1754.786,"endTime":1756.886,"body":"you're going in the wrong direction,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1756.886,"endTime":1760.546,"body":"all you're doing is bad things, even"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1756.886,"endTime":1760.546,"body":"faster than you've ever been capable"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1760.619,"endTime":1763.484,"body":"Yes, exactly."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1763.731,"endTime":1765.646,"body":"but, and I also"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1763.731,"endTime":1765.646,"body":"think it's really helpful when you can."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1766.056,"endTime":1769.356,"body":"you know, as somebody who kind of"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1766.056,"endTime":1769.356,"body":"views myself, and I think Andrew's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1769.356,"endTime":1772.326,"body":"kind of in the same boat, and maybe"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1769.356,"endTime":1772.326,"body":"you are as well, Kelly, but I, I view"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1772.326,"endTime":1775.626,"body":"myself as someone who's kind of on"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1772.326,"endTime":1775.626,"body":"the, ahead of the curve on AI adoption."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1775.626,"endTime":1778.146,"body":"Like I've really embraced it"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1775.626,"endTime":1778.146,"body":"in a lot of different ways."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1778.462,"endTime":1781.722,"body":"I also find it's really helpful to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1778.462,"endTime":1781.722,"body":"share learnings with other people"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1781.722,"endTime":1786.382,"body":"because, it helps you put yourself"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1781.722,"endTime":1786.382,"body":"relatively speaking where you are."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1786.717,"endTime":1789.087,"body":"In, like, you know, everyone's"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1786.717,"endTime":1789.087,"body":"trying to stay ahead and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1789.087,"endTime":1790.467,"body":"learn the next greatest thing."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1790.517,"endTime":1793.367,"body":"it helps you understand, relatively"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1790.517,"endTime":1793.367,"body":"speaking, where you are compared to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1793.367,"endTime":1797.627,"body":"everyone else because the reality is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1793.367,"endTime":1797.627,"body":"that the vast majority of the world is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1797.627,"endTime":1800.057,"body":"still extremely early to this stuff."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1800.057,"endTime":1803.657,"body":"So like you might feel this pressure,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1800.057,"endTime":1803.657,"body":"like maybe you're a high performer"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1803.657,"endTime":1807.587,"body":"that feels this pressure to work"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1803.657,"endTime":1807.587,"body":"as quickly as possible using AI"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1807.587,"endTime":1810.377,"body":"because you think someone else is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1807.587,"endTime":1810.377,"body":"gonna catch up to you if you don't."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1810.377,"endTime":1813.732,"body":"But the reality might be that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1810.377,"endTime":1813.732,"body":"you're actually like doing extremely"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1813.732,"endTime":1814.962,"body":"well and it's like just, keep."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1815.772,"endTime":1819.482,"body":"the course and maintain quality and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1815.772,"endTime":1819.482,"body":"keep doing the right thing and just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1819.482,"endTime":1821.117,"body":"gradually augment your workflows."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1821.72,"endTime":1826.43,"body":"Exactly if you try to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1821.72,"endTime":1826.43,"body":"completely revamp your entire workflow."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1826.43,"endTime":1828.2,"body":"This goes for any building, any habit."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1828.2,"endTime":1829.31,"body":"Honestly, if you try."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1829.55,"endTime":1832.4,"body":"To change too much at once, it's"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1829.55,"endTime":1832.4,"body":"not going to be sustainable."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1832.67,"endTime":1833.6,"body":"Try something."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1833.69,"endTime":1835.58,"body":"See if it's actually helpful for you."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1835.58,"endTime":1839.0,"body":"Run a tiny experiment on that and"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1835.58,"endTime":1839.0,"body":"if it doesn't work, then pivot."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1839.3,"endTime":1841.85,"body":"If it works, then great, you"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1839.3,"endTime":1841.85,"body":"can now try something new."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1842.24,"endTime":1845.87,"body":"But if you try to keep up with"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1842.24,"endTime":1845.87,"body":"everybody else or choose like one"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1845.87,"endTime":1847.34,"body":"specific person that you're like."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1847.68,"endTime":1851.7,"body":"Air quotes competing with, to know"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1847.68,"endTime":1851.7,"body":"as much as they know when you don't"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1851.7,"endTime":1855.39,"body":"know why they're learning or how"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1851.7,"endTime":1855.39,"body":"much time they're able to dedicate"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1855.39,"endTime":1858.99,"body":"towards learning or how it affects"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1855.39,"endTime":1858.99,"body":"their life, their career, their job."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1859.2,"endTime":1861.3,"body":"You know, you're not going"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1859.2,"endTime":1861.3,"body":"to be on the same footing."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1861.3,"endTime":1863.13,"body":"There's always going to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1861.3,"endTime":1863.13,"body":"be differences there."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1863.13,"endTime":1867.627,"body":"If I were to, poll my, group of friends"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1863.13,"endTime":1867.627,"body":"and ask them how they're using AI in"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1867.627,"endTime":1870.747,"body":"their day to day, they'll be like,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1867.627,"endTime":1870.747,"body":"I'm not, or maybe they're like, oh"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1870.747,"endTime":1874.107,"body":"yeah, I occasionally chat with ChatGPT"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1870.747,"endTime":1874.107,"body":"and like, that's the extent of it."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1874.352,"endTime":1874.772,"body":"Like this."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1874.832,"endTime":1876.092,"body":"It's all relative."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1876.149,"endTime":1877.829,"body":"I had to help"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1876.149,"endTime":1877.829,"body":"me plan on my trip to France."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1877.919,"endTime":1878.189,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1878.552,"endTime":1879.032,"body":"Oh man."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1879.032,"endTime":1883.772,"body":"It actually used it for our last trip to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1879.032,"endTime":1883.772,"body":"France when we went to Leon and it planned"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1884.102,"endTime":1890.832,"body":"some fantastic like side trips for us to,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1884.102,"endTime":1890.832,"body":"the, the home of Michelin, for example."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1890.832,"endTime":1894.432,"body":"It found an amazing restaurant that"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1890.832,"endTime":1894.432,"body":"I swear is going to be a Michelin"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1894.432,"endTime":1896.952,"body":"guide restaurant or a Michelin"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1894.432,"endTime":1896.952,"body":"starred restaurant at some point."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1897.162,"endTime":1899.922,"body":"Yeah, I mean, ChatGPT's great for travel."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1900.329,"endTime":1903.765,"body":"let's, double down"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1900.329,"endTime":1903.765,"body":"on this AI stuff because I, I mean, if"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1903.765,"endTime":1906.645,"body":"you're a list regular listener of this"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1903.765,"endTime":1906.645,"body":"show, you know, practically every week"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1906.645,"endTime":1907.875,"body":"at this point we're talking about it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1907.875,"endTime":1910.905,"body":"'cause it seems to be impacting"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1907.875,"endTime":1910.905,"body":"all facets of software development."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1911.305,"endTime":1914.565,"body":"let's think specifically like,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1911.305,"endTime":1914.565,"body":"as teams are adopting AI."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1914.85,"endTime":1918.27,"body":"you know, I think the people who are"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1914.85,"endTime":1918.27,"body":"probably gonna be under a lot of pressure"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1918.27,"endTime":1921.99,"body":"in this environment are like your high"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1918.27,"endTime":1921.99,"body":"performers within your organization."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1922.42,"endTime":1926.99,"body":"what are some of the, traditional"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1922.42,"endTime":1926.99,"body":"signs of burnout that managers"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1926.99,"endTime":1928.52,"body":"should be on the lookout for?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1928.52,"endTime":1931.1,"body":"And how do you think"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1928.52,"endTime":1931.1,"body":"ai like, impacts that?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1932.103,"endTime":1934.233,"body":"I look for"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1932.103,"endTime":1934.233,"body":"slip in quality of work."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1934.263,"endTime":1937.113,"body":"First off, like what's going on"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1934.263,"endTime":1937.113,"body":"so we can have a conversation."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1937.363,"endTime":1941.673,"body":"I look for behaviors like how"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1937.363,"endTime":1941.673,"body":"are you showing up to meetings?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1941.673,"endTime":1942.843,"body":"Are you showing up to meetings?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1942.843,"endTime":1945.993,"body":"How has your communication style changed"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1942.843,"endTime":1945.993,"body":"If people start to become a little bit"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1945.993,"endTime":1949.783,"body":"more cynical, that is usually a cue"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1945.993,"endTime":1949.783,"body":"to me that they might, I, you know, I."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1950.268,"endTime":1951.888,"body":"Appreciate skepticism."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1952.158,"endTime":1954.918,"body":"being cynical is a, taking it"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1952.158,"endTime":1954.918,"body":"to a whole different level."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1955.188,"endTime":1959.628,"body":"And when they start to cross over that,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1955.188,"endTime":1959.628,"body":"that line in into cynicism, that's when"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1959.628,"endTime":1962.178,"body":"I'm like, okay, something's going on here."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1962.428,"endTime":1965.788,"body":"and you know, I will ask them"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1962.428,"endTime":1965.788,"body":"like, what has changed recently?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1965.788,"endTime":1967.828,"body":"Your workflows, your workload?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1968.038,"endTime":1969.343,"body":"How are you actually,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1969.773,"endTime":1971.753,"body":"completing your work these days?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1971.753,"endTime":1976.433,"body":"I've noticed some people who were early"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1971.753,"endTime":1976.433,"body":"adopters of using Cursor for example,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1976.733,"endTime":1980.573,"body":"their code quality actually decreased"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1976.733,"endTime":1980.573,"body":"because they felt that they had to move"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1980.573,"endTime":1985.163,"body":"so fast that they were becoming wholly"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1980.573,"endTime":1985.163,"body":"reliant on it, and they were shipping"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1985.403,"endTime":1987.743,"body":"less than stellar quality of code."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1987.863,"endTime":1989.193,"body":"And it happens sometimes."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1989.193,"endTime":1989.453,"body":"When you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1989.453,"endTime":1991.695,"body":"mentioned the slip"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1989.453,"endTime":1991.695,"body":"in quality, I was like, doesn't that"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":1991.695,"endTime":1994.285,"body":"just naturally happen when you adopt ai?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1994.848,"endTime":1995.328,"body":"It."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1995.388,"endTime":1997.188,"body":"That's where the skepticism is important."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1997.578,"endTime":2000.593,"body":"Like it's going to help me,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":1997.578,"endTime":2000.593,"body":"but how well will it help me?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2001.223,"endTime":2004.463,"body":"so then obviously you're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2001.223,"endTime":2004.463,"body":"incentivized by these tools and these"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2004.463,"endTime":2005.993,"body":"environments to move really fast."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2005.993,"endTime":2008.573,"body":"Sometimes in some cases ship"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2005.993,"endTime":2008.573,"body":"less than stellar stuff."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2008.573,"endTime":2009.833,"body":"I think that's the pressure."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2009.983,"endTime":2012.893,"body":"A lot of engineers, especially those"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2009.983,"endTime":2012.893,"body":"that pursue excellence are feeling"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2012.893,"endTime":2015.903,"body":"right now, they want to, you know,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2012.893,"endTime":2015.903,"body":"hold onto their process because their"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2015.903,"endTime":2019.323,"body":"process delivers really excellent"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2015.903,"endTime":2019.323,"body":"results that frankly go above what."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2019.588,"endTime":2023.278,"body":"AI can typically deliver if"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2019.588,"endTime":2023.278,"body":"they're highly specialized or"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2023.278,"endTime":2024.748,"body":"have a lot of domain knowledge."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2025.078,"endTime":2030.808,"body":"And so is there advice that you would give"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2025.078,"endTime":2030.808,"body":"like a leader or a team about creating"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2030.808,"endTime":2035.288,"body":"this environment where, people are all"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2030.808,"endTime":2035.288,"body":"on the same team and aligned about how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2035.288,"endTime":2039.668,"body":"they're gonna be using the tools, but"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2035.288,"endTime":2039.668,"body":"also those holdouts are kind of getting"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2039.668,"endTime":2044.678,"body":"educated about like, this is what I need"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2039.668,"endTime":2044.678,"body":"to do to level up my workflow so it works"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2044.708,"endTime":2047.198,"body":"for me without burning everybody out, you"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2047.468,"endTime":2047.748,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2048.018,"endTime":2048.288,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2048.558,"endTime":2051.948,"body":"I think if there is a, if there's"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2048.558,"endTime":2051.948,"body":"pressure from the business to adopt"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2051.948,"endTime":2056.028,"body":"AI in your everyday, that needs to be"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2051.948,"endTime":2056.028,"body":"made clear, first and foremost from a"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2056.028,"endTime":2058.248,"body":"leadership perspective and, and how you."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2058.248,"endTime":2062.748,"body":"want your team to adopt ai, I think"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2058.248,"endTime":2062.748,"body":"it's also really beneficial for you"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2062.748,"endTime":2066.648,"body":"to all sit down and just knowledge"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2062.748,"endTime":2066.648,"body":"share of how you're leveraging ai."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2066.648,"endTime":2069.408,"body":"And it doesn't necessarily just"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2066.648,"endTime":2069.408,"body":"have to be on your team, especially"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2069.408,"endTime":2070.788,"body":"if it's like a company directive."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2070.848,"endTime":2075.078,"body":"Make this an open channel of communication"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2070.848,"endTime":2075.078,"body":"because whatever you are doing with"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2075.078,"endTime":2079.068,"body":"AI and engineering, somebody from"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2075.078,"endTime":2079.068,"body":"support or somebody from sales will"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2079.068,"endTime":2080.388,"body":"be able to get an idea from that."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2080.623,"endTime":2082.423,"body":"And apply that to their own day to day."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2082.513,"endTime":2085.153,"body":"So the more that you can discuss"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2082.513,"endTime":2085.153,"body":"it, the more you're creating an open"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2085.153,"endTime":2086.803,"body":"forum of what works and what doesn't."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2086.983,"endTime":2091.213,"body":"And it'll also help bring along"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2086.983,"endTime":2091.213,"body":"those who don't have that same level"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2091.213,"endTime":2095.923,"body":"of trust in AI who are used to that"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2091.213,"endTime":2095.923,"body":"very high level of excellence, for"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2095.923,"endTime":2098.623,"body":"example, that they're like, well,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2095.923,"endTime":2098.623,"body":"I can do this better on my own."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2098.953,"endTime":2103.583,"body":"If you have some other high performer"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2098.953,"endTime":2103.583,"body":"saying, Hey, I am also very much"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2103.583,"endTime":2105.263,"body":"on the same, same boat as you."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2105.293,"endTime":2109.493,"body":"However, here is how I'm using AI to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2105.293,"endTime":2109.493,"body":"help augment what I'm doing where I still"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2109.493,"endTime":2111.953,"body":"feel like I am in control of my destiny."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2112.253,"endTime":2114.996,"body":"And then you can, you can kind of"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2112.253,"endTime":2114.996,"body":"create some like mentorship and"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2114.996,"endTime":2118.386,"body":"some coaching opportunities in"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2114.996,"endTime":2118.386,"body":"there to bring everybody along."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2118.576,"endTime":2121.576,"body":"I would also get a pulse check on"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2118.576,"endTime":2121.576,"body":"how the company or your team is"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2121.576,"endTime":2123.346,"body":"feeling about adopting AI as well."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2123.466,"endTime":2126.406,"body":"And just do that regularly, like"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2123.466,"endTime":2126.406,"body":"every two weeks or so, especially"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2126.406,"endTime":2127.816,"body":"at the rate, AI is moving."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2127.816,"endTime":2129.736,"body":"Like, what cool thing"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2127.816,"endTime":2129.736,"body":"did you learn about ai?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2129.736,"endTime":2131.956,"body":"How are you feeling about"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2129.736,"endTime":2131.956,"body":"adding AI into your workflows"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2131.956,"endTime":2133.246,"body":"For this particular reason?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2133.426,"endTime":2137.416,"body":"And you can also kind of see, and I'm"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2133.426,"endTime":2137.416,"body":"sure if we were to look back at the"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2137.416,"endTime":2141.556,"body":"past two, three months of AI adoption"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2137.416,"endTime":2141.556,"body":"within an organization, you'll see"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2141.556,"endTime":2144.706,"body":"more and more and more folks finding"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2141.556,"endTime":2144.706,"body":"opportunities to adopt AI beyond"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2144.706,"endTime":2146.866,"body":"just like asking chat GPT questions."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2147.591,"endTime":2148.221,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2148.654,"endTime":2151.144,"body":"and I love your,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2148.654,"endTime":2151.144,"body":"your idea of cross pollinating,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2151.144,"endTime":2152.584,"body":"even outside of engineering."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2152.614,"endTime":2155.126,"body":"'cause I mean, we are really at"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2152.614,"endTime":2155.126,"body":"a, state right now where we're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2155.126,"endTime":2156.956,"body":"all fundamentally learning."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2157.212,"endTime":2161.352,"body":"basic capabilities, like in the long"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2157.212,"endTime":2161.352,"body":"term, like we'll look back on now and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2161.352,"endTime":2166.122,"body":"look at what we're learning as a pretty"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2161.352,"endTime":2166.122,"body":"basic fundamental capability of using ai."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2166.122,"endTime":2168.042,"body":"Like there's gonna be so"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2166.122,"endTime":2168.042,"body":"much more down the road"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2168.475,"endTime":2173.095,"body":"Exactly, and I love"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2168.475,"endTime":2173.095,"body":"AI agents because they're leveling"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2173.095,"endTime":2177.115,"body":"the playing field in a way, because"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2173.095,"endTime":2177.115,"body":"you don't have to be a developer"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2177.175,"endTime":2179.575,"body":"to get the full extent out of ai."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2179.845,"endTime":2184.615,"body":"And I have never seen in my entire"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2179.845,"endTime":2184.615,"body":"professional career something so"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2184.615,"endTime":2187.255,"body":"substantial in this market where."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2187.475,"endTime":2190.925,"body":"Somebody in sales who is"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2187.475,"endTime":2190.925,"body":"non-technical can take just as"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2190.925,"endTime":2193.145,"body":"much advantage of AI as I can."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2193.385,"endTime":2197.225,"body":"Now, you know, building your"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2193.385,"endTime":2197.225,"body":"own mc, uh, MCP server might be"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2197.225,"endTime":2198.425,"body":"a whole different conversation."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2198.425,"endTime":2201.905,"body":"That is still a fairly technical"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2198.425,"endTime":2201.905,"body":"thing, but you're still able to take"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2201.905,"endTime":2205.855,"body":"a lot of advantage through, the open"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2201.905,"endTime":2205.855,"body":"network that Claude has created, for"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2205.855,"endTime":2207.925,"body":"example, that they recently launched."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2208.225,"endTime":2211.435,"body":"And you don't have to know"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2208.225,"endTime":2211.435,"body":"how to code to do any of this."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2212.432,"endTime":2214.412,"body":"Yeah, actually"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2212.432,"endTime":2214.412,"body":"Andrew and I have been talking about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2214.412,"endTime":2216.652,"body":"this concept of disposable code more"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2216.985,"endTime":2217.205,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2217.252,"endTime":2220.432,"body":"Like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2217.252,"endTime":2220.432,"body":"non-technical people particularly"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2220.492,"endTime":2223.612,"body":"would never think to solve their"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2220.492,"endTime":2223.612,"body":"problems with code in the past."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2223.612,"endTime":2226.862,"body":"But today, it actually does make"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2223.612,"endTime":2226.862,"body":"a lot more sense to maybe ask."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2227.212,"endTime":2229.142,"body":"ChatGPT to write some python to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2229.35,"endTime":2229.84,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2230.012,"endTime":2230.882,"body":"and then just run it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2230.882,"endTime":2233.462,"body":"You know, you don't, you're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2230.882,"endTime":2233.462,"body":"not deploying it to production."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2233.462,"endTime":2234.902,"body":"You just need to solve a problem,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2235.085,"endTime":2235.745,"body":"Yeah, it is."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2235.745,"endTime":2238.115,"body":"It is making rapid"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2235.745,"endTime":2238.115,"body":"prototyping truly rapid."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2238.49,"endTime":2239.21,"body":"And I love that."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2239.21,"endTime":2241.28,"body":"So long as you don't take"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2239.21,"endTime":2241.28,"body":"that prototype and immediately"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2241.49,"endTime":2242.84,"body":"ship it to production, because"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2243.062,"endTime":2243.422,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2243.5,"endTime":2244.805,"body":"that is where"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2243.5,"endTime":2244.805,"body":"we start to get issues."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2245.395,"endTime":2247.225,"body":"user"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2245.395,"endTime":2247.225,"body":"information and financial, yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2247.884,"endTime":2249.984,"body":"You know, in, in, in"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2247.884,"endTime":2249.984,"body":"this conversation, we can kind of divide"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2249.984,"endTime":2251.724,"body":"it almost into like a hero's journey."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2251.724,"endTime":2254.874,"body":"Like we talked a bit in, in the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2251.724,"endTime":2254.874,"body":"beginning about being in this lightning"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2254.874,"endTime":2257.904,"body":"fast culture and learning fast and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2254.874,"endTime":2257.904,"body":"moving quick, and then climbing"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2257.904,"endTime":2260.094,"body":"up a career ladder and ultimately."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2260.169,"endTime":2261.189,"body":"Burning out, right?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2261.189,"endTime":2265.679,"body":"But now we're in that part of the journey"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2261.189,"endTime":2265.679,"body":"where you're after the burnout, you've had"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2265.679,"endTime":2269.519,"body":"all the benefit of being able to reflect"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2265.679,"endTime":2269.519,"body":"back on that experience, understand"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2269.519,"endTime":2274.226,"body":"how that happened to you, someone who's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2269.519,"endTime":2274.226,"body":"very trained in in recognizing this."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2274.476,"endTime":2278.106,"body":"and in doing so, you're able to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2274.476,"endTime":2278.106,"body":"unlock a lot of learnings that I think"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2278.106,"endTime":2280.331,"body":"everyone can take a lot of note from."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2280.331,"endTime":2284.351,"body":"and we definitely want to dive into"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2280.331,"endTime":2284.351,"body":"them here, but I wanna start actually"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2284.531,"endTime":2290.651,"body":"by, going back to that moment, because"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2284.531,"endTime":2290.651,"body":"you described a burnout not being"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2290.651,"endTime":2293.171,"body":"sudden, but like a slow realization."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2293.171,"endTime":2296.921,"body":"So going back into that, that haze"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2293.171,"endTime":2296.921,"body":"of time where burnout was starting to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2296.921,"endTime":2302.231,"body":"really set in on you, can you walk us"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2296.921,"endTime":2302.231,"body":"through where you were at when that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2302.261,"endTime":2306.641,"body":"awareness started to dawn on you and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2302.261,"endTime":2306.641,"body":"you, it wasn't something temporary."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2306.821,"endTime":2310.031,"body":"Yeah, it's really"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2306.821,"endTime":2310.031,"body":"fascinating to be, you know, reflecting"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2310.031,"endTime":2313.511,"body":"in my own experience because it"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2310.031,"endTime":2313.511,"body":"was probably over the course of six"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2313.511,"endTime":2315.941,"body":"months, like it was not a short window."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2316.211,"endTime":2320.171,"body":"And if I reflect back then my husband."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2320.261,"endTime":2322.571,"body":"Called it out way before I ever did."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2322.601,"endTime":2324.401,"body":"And he's like, are you okay?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2324.401,"endTime":2325.301,"body":"And I'm like, yeah, I'm fine."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2325.481,"endTime":2326.411,"body":"Everything's fine."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2326.651,"endTime":2329.201,"body":"This is just a stressful moment"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2326.651,"endTime":2329.201,"body":"right now and we'll get through it."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2329.501,"endTime":2333.461,"body":"And that stressful moment continued"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2329.501,"endTime":2333.461,"body":"month after month after month"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2333.461,"endTime":2337.181,"body":"and the way the stress presented"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2333.461,"endTime":2337.181,"body":"itself changed over time as well."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2337.491,"endTime":2341.151,"body":"you know, from feeling extremely"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2337.491,"endTime":2341.151,"body":"bored in my work and feeling"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2341.151,"endTime":2342.501,"body":"like lost of what am I doing?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2342.501,"endTime":2346.191,"body":"Like who am I as a person, as a"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2342.501,"endTime":2346.191,"body":"manager, what am I doing here to being."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2346.656,"endTime":2351.096,"body":"So totally overwhelmed with the amount"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2346.656,"endTime":2351.096,"body":"of work that was suddenly on my plate."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2351.396,"endTime":2353.316,"body":"So that piece of it changed."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2353.316,"endTime":2358.366,"body":"But what didn't change is my,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2353.316,"endTime":2358.366,"body":"sleep started to decrease."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2358.366,"endTime":2361.936,"body":"Like the amount I slept started to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2358.366,"endTime":2361.936,"body":"decrease the amount, like the quality"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2361.936,"endTime":2363.556,"body":"of sleep I was getting was decreasing."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2364.006,"endTime":2365.146,"body":"Little physical things."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2365.146,"endTime":2367.006,"body":"My resting heart rate started to increase."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2367.006,"endTime":2371.026,"body":"I have a naturally low resting"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2367.006,"endTime":2371.026,"body":"heart rate, and it was 10 over."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2371.026,"endTime":2375.256,"body":"What it typically is, I, I usually"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2371.026,"endTime":2375.256,"body":"sit in the fifties and my resting"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2375.256,"endTime":2378.286,"body":"heart rate was like constantly"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2375.256,"endTime":2378.286,"body":"in like the sixties, seventies."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2378.676,"endTime":2382.126,"body":"I would take the weekend off, take"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2378.676,"endTime":2382.126,"body":"the weekend off air quotes there."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2383.731,"endTime":2386.671,"body":"And I would be stressing"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2383.731,"endTime":2386.671,"body":"about work the entire time."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2386.671,"endTime":2390.151,"body":"Like all the things that I didn't"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2386.671,"endTime":2390.151,"body":"get through, or in the time when"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2390.151,"endTime":2393.181,"body":"I felt extremely bored or, or"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2390.151,"endTime":2393.181,"body":"just like lost in my career."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2393.181,"endTime":2394.741,"body":"Like, what should I be doing?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2395.101,"endTime":2398.731,"body":"And I started having more conversations"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2395.101,"endTime":2398.731,"body":"with, you know, with individuals at the"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2398.731,"endTime":2400.651,"body":"company, with my husband, with my friend."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2400.901,"endTime":2403.541,"body":"but one of the things that really"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2400.901,"endTime":2403.541,"body":"stood out to me in this process"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2403.541,"endTime":2406.871,"body":"is I noticed how unhappy I was."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2407.276,"endTime":2411.656,"body":"And I started to notice that"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2407.276,"endTime":2411.656,"body":"my mood was changing at work."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2411.686,"endTime":2414.686,"body":"I was no longer bought into the"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2411.686,"endTime":2414.686,"body":"mission that we were building."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2414.896,"endTime":2418.406,"body":"I was starting to pick things apart"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2414.896,"endTime":2418.406,"body":"of like, why are we doing this?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2418.406,"endTime":2421.496,"body":"This seems like a really bad"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2418.406,"endTime":2421.496,"body":"idea when normally I would"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2421.496,"endTime":2423.086,"body":"question it as anybody should."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2423.086,"endTime":2424.856,"body":"Again, healthy dose of skepticism."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2425.096,"endTime":2430.166,"body":"But I was, I was leaning more from that"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2425.096,"endTime":2430.166,"body":"skepticism side into cynicism and that"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2430.166,"endTime":2432.026,"body":"was a really big cue for me that like."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2432.211,"endTime":2434.371,"body":"I'm not even happy with"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2432.211,"endTime":2434.371,"body":"what I'm doing anymore."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2434.641,"endTime":2439.211,"body":"And now that I've left the company,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2434.641,"endTime":2439.211,"body":"I'm still very much team Spot."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2439.211,"endTime":2442.151,"body":"And I do believe that what they're"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2439.211,"endTime":2442.151,"body":"building is going to be fantastic"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2442.151,"endTime":2446.441,"body":"and, and I am cheering them all like"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2442.151,"endTime":2446.441,"body":"on along the sidelines and actually"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2446.741,"endTime":2451.841,"body":"physically removing myself from the"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2446.741,"endTime":2451.841,"body":"company help me rebuild that respect"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2451.841,"endTime":2453.221,"body":"for what the company was building."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2453.851,"endTime":2456.461,"body":"And that was a very"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2453.851,"endTime":2456.461,"body":"fascinating finding for me."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2457.271,"endTime":2459.731,"body":"I've actually been"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2457.271,"endTime":2459.731,"body":"in that same exact shoe before."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2459.761,"endTime":2462.791,"body":"The way you call it out about"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2459.761,"endTime":2462.791,"body":"how it evolves into cynicism, my"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2462.791,"endTime":2464.981,"body":"personality, I really relate with that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2464.981,"endTime":2467.321,"body":"'cause that's exactly how"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2464.981,"endTime":2467.321,"body":"I see it in myself too."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2467.321,"endTime":2468.281,"body":"I get cynical."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2468.581,"endTime":2471.431,"body":"That doesn't just happen in burnout, that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2468.581,"endTime":2471.431,"body":"happens in anything in my life where it"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2471.431,"endTime":2473.531,"body":"starts to go beyond what I want it to be."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2473.831,"endTime":2476.931,"body":"but when you remove yourself though, and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2473.831,"endTime":2476.931,"body":"you're able to kind of like take that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2477.151,"endTime":2479.221,"body":"That taste outta your mouth about it."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2479.491,"endTime":2479.791,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2480.276,"endTime":2481.946,"body":"you start"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2480.276,"endTime":2481.946,"body":"to feel a lot better."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2481.946,"endTime":2484.646,"body":"Not in a reminiscent way, not"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2481.946,"endTime":2484.646,"body":"like I want to go back their way,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2484.856,"endTime":2485.276,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2485.426,"endTime":2486.386,"body":"calling you back there."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2486.386,"endTime":2489.673,"body":"But the respect that you have for"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2486.386,"endTime":2489.673,"body":"what you were building and what your"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2489.673,"endTime":2492.043,"body":"coworkers were doing, it returns to you."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2492.043,"endTime":2495.208,"body":"And when that happens, it does"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2492.043,"endTime":2495.208,"body":"help you feel a little more human"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2495.208,"endTime":2499.093,"body":"again, because that cynicism"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2495.208,"endTime":2499.093,"body":"pit that you get in is not fun."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2499.563,"endTime":2502.343,"body":"Exactly, and, I called"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2499.563,"endTime":2502.343,"body":"this out in that blog post that"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2502.343,"endTime":2506.003,"body":"I had written that I felt like a"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2502.343,"endTime":2506.003,"body":"shell of a human, and there were a"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2506.003,"endTime":2508.793,"body":"lot of other health related things"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2506.003,"endTime":2508.793,"body":"that were going on at the same time."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2508.793,"endTime":2513.328,"body":"I. Um, and I was seeing a number of"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2508.793,"endTime":2513.328,"body":"doctors to get some diagnoses that I've"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2513.328,"endTime":2515.308,"body":"been waiting on for a very long time."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2515.624,"endTime":2519.554,"body":"and so I know that was also"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2515.624,"endTime":2519.554,"body":"contributing to it, but it was showing"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2519.554,"endTime":2522.794,"body":"up physically, like the stress was"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2519.554,"endTime":2522.794,"body":"showing up physically in my body in"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2522.794,"endTime":2524.414,"body":"ways that I never would've imagined."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2524.714,"endTime":2529.064,"body":"I can count on my two hands how many"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2524.714,"endTime":2529.064,"body":"times I have felt hungry this year."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2529.724,"endTime":2533.594,"body":"It's that kind of thing that"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2529.724,"endTime":2533.594,"body":"you never actually think about"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2533.864,"endTime":2535.334,"body":"and suddenly you're like, oh."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2535.489,"endTime":2540.799,"body":"I actually kind of feel a little bit"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2535.489,"endTime":2540.799,"body":"hungry and No, no, nor air quotes."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2540.859,"endTime":2541.849,"body":"I'm doing a lot of air quotes today."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2541.849,"endTime":2542.209,"body":"It's great."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2542.449,"endTime":2545.449,"body":"Uh, no normal person would"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2542.449,"endTime":2545.449,"body":"even give that any thought."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2545.449,"endTime":2547.459,"body":"Or they might be like, I'm"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2545.449,"endTime":2547.459,"body":"hungry, I'm gonna go get a snack."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2547.489,"endTime":2548.749,"body":"Meanwhile, I'm like, I'm hungry."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2548.749,"endTime":2549.649,"body":"Whoa, I'm hungry."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2549.649,"endTime":2550.399,"body":"This is cool."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2550.429,"endTime":2551.329,"body":"How exciting."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2551.504,"endTime":2551.654,"body":"I'm"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2551.719,"endTime":2551.959,"body":"it's,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2551.984,"endTime":2553.244,"body":"human experience of"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2553.399,"endTime":2554.359,"body":"I'm human again."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2554.624,"endTime":2556.304,"body":"bodily driven experience."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2556.549,"endTime":2557.509,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2557.644,"endTime":2558.874,"body":"Kelly, I"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2557.644,"endTime":2558.874,"body":"think we're the same person."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2558.874,"endTime":2560.584,"body":"I only eat when other people are around."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2560.584,"endTime":2562.414,"body":"I need a schedule of"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2560.584,"endTime":2562.414,"body":"people to make me eat."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2562.414,"endTime":2564.094,"body":"'cause I don't, like, I don't"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2562.414,"endTime":2564.094,"body":"get the hunger thing to pull."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2564.094,"endTime":2566.014,"body":"I like I, some people get"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2564.094,"endTime":2566.014,"body":"hangry and then they got a."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2566.074,"endTime":2567.244,"body":"Stop everything and go eat."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2567.244,"endTime":2567.994,"body":"I'm not, I'm not"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2568.004,"endTime":2568.754,"body":"I'm not that."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2568.964,"endTime":2569.354,"body":"No,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2569.374,"endTime":2569.944,"body":"a foodie."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2569.944,"endTime":2573.364,"body":"I love my food, but like I can"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2569.944,"endTime":2573.364,"body":"easily forget to eat and that's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2573.364,"endTime":2574.774,"body":"my own problem to deal with."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2574.774,"endTime":2578.224,"body":"But like when those little moments, you"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2574.774,"endTime":2578.224,"body":"know, when you could cheer on like, woo,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2578.564,"endTime":2579.524,"body":"exactly."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2579.814,"endTime":2581.134,"body":"It makes"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2579.814,"endTime":2581.134,"body":"you feel like a human."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2581.384,"endTime":2581.744,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":2581.794,"endTime":2582.124,"body":"with you."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2582.479,"endTime":2585.689,"body":"I've been working with"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2582.479,"endTime":2585.689,"body":"a dietician, uh, since December,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2585.779,"endTime":2589.439,"body":"and she taught me about mechanical"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2585.779,"endTime":2589.439,"body":"eating and how important it is for,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2589.439,"endTime":2592.679,"body":"especially those of us, like I am"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2589.439,"endTime":2592.679,"body":"being treated for an eating disorder."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2592.679,"endTime":2594.269,"body":"So that is one part of this."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2594.389,"endTime":2598.829,"body":"But for those of us who are very"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2594.389,"endTime":2598.829,"body":"sedentary, but also very like sitting"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2598.829,"endTime":2601.649,"body":"on a desk all day thinking about our"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2598.829,"endTime":2601.649,"body":"work in a very high stress environment."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2602.179,"endTime":2605.569,"body":"one of the first things your body will"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2602.179,"endTime":2605.569,"body":"do is start to shut down certain signals"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2605.569,"endTime":2610.249,"body":"to like save memory, like your battery"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2605.569,"endTime":2610.249,"body":"is running low on your laptop or your"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2610.249,"endTime":2612.199,"body":"phone background processes, stop running."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2612.349,"endTime":2615.679,"body":"One of those background processes"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2612.349,"endTime":2615.679,"body":"that stops running is those hunger"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2615.679,"endTime":2620.899,"body":"fullness cues, and I, I'm doing what's"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2615.679,"endTime":2620.899,"body":"called mechanical eating, which is"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2620.899,"endTime":2623.809,"body":"basically I eat on a very set schedule."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2623.959,"endTime":2628.219,"body":"I don't feel hungry, but I know"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2623.959,"endTime":2628.219,"body":"my body is wanting food because."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2628.714,"endTime":2633.784,"body":"While it needs energy somehow,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2628.714,"endTime":2633.784,"body":"and I am now starting to get those"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2633.784,"endTime":2636.119,"body":"hunger cues back because it's"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2633.784,"endTime":2636.119,"body":"learning that it's actually safe."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2637.354,"endTime":2641.824,"body":"It can actually start to, you know, say,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2637.354,"endTime":2641.824,"body":"okay, I know I'm going to get food, so"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2641.824,"endTime":2644.674,"body":"therefore I'm just giving you a hint like,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2641.824,"endTime":2644.674,"body":"Hey, it's probably time that we need to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2644.674,"endTime":2647.074,"body":"eat and that that is recovery for me."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2647.284,"endTime":2649.504,"body":"And it's not just like the"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2647.284,"endTime":2649.504,"body":"eating disorder recovery."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2649.504,"endTime":2653.164,"body":"It is recovery from stress, which"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2649.504,"endTime":2653.164,"body":"I think is one of the coolest"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2653.164,"endTime":2654.754,"body":"things to actually watch happen."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2654.844,"endTime":2656.054,"body":"Requires a lot of patience."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2656.224,"endTime":2658.504,"body":"It has been four, almost"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2656.224,"endTime":2658.504,"body":"five months in the making."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2658.864,"endTime":2660.214,"body":"Now we're getting to that point."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2660.274,"endTime":2662.344,"body":"But it is so cool to actually see now."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2663.251,"endTime":2663.946,"body":"Y you are."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2663.946,"endTime":2666.406,"body":"I feel like I'm learning so"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2663.946,"endTime":2666.406,"body":"much about myself right now."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2667.366,"endTime":2672.076,"body":"but one thing that really resonates with"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2667.366,"endTime":2672.076,"body":"me is, how this settled in as a gradient"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2672.106,"endTime":2676.066,"body":"that sort of culminated in this like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2672.106,"endTime":2676.066,"body":"sudden realization that you were unhappy"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2676.066,"endTime":2678.016,"body":"and that something needed to be changed."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2678.566,"endTime":2679.286,"body":"you know, you mentioned."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2679.736,"endTime":2683.156,"body":"in one of your blog articles about"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2679.736,"endTime":2683.156,"body":"how as this gradient was happening,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2683.156,"endTime":2686.826,"body":"you were trying to implement"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2683.156,"endTime":2686.826,"body":"these temporary fixes to solve it."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2686.826,"endTime":2689.376,"body":"Like you're offloading meetings,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2686.826,"endTime":2689.376,"body":"you're setting new boundaries with"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2689.376,"endTime":2692.586,"body":"people, but at the end of the day,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2689.376,"endTime":2692.586,"body":"you ultimately concluded that like"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2692.586,"endTime":2696.405,"body":"you just needed some change because"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2692.586,"endTime":2696.405,"body":"some real change because this gradient"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2696.405,"endTime":2697.44,"body":"wasn't really working for you."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2697.44,"endTime":2701.4,"body":"So, why do you think it was that those"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2697.44,"endTime":2701.4,"body":"initial boundary setting attempts"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2701.4,"endTime":2703.53,"body":"weren't enough for your situation?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2703.819,"endTime":2704.659,"body":"I was too far gone."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2705.519,"endTime":2708.639,"body":"I think, you know, if you catch"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2705.519,"endTime":2708.639,"body":"the signals early enough and you're"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2708.639,"endTime":2712.269,"body":"like, Hey, I actually haven't taken a"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2708.639,"endTime":2712.269,"body":"vacation in months, it's probably time"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2712.269,"endTime":2713.739,"body":"for me to take some time off work."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2713.949,"endTime":2716.229,"body":"That can actually be"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2713.949,"endTime":2716.229,"body":"really healing for people."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2716.709,"endTime":2721.929,"body":"For me, it had been, you know, I went"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2716.709,"endTime":2721.929,"body":"on a vacation back in October of last"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2721.929,"endTime":2726.429,"body":"year, and due to some specific work"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2721.929,"endTime":2726.429,"body":"situations, I ended up being on my"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2726.429,"endTime":2728.529,"body":"laptop 9 out of the 10 days that I was"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2728.829,"endTime":2729.279,"body":"off."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2729.549,"endTime":2733.389,"body":"And even for like five, 10 minutes,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2729.549,"endTime":2733.389,"body":"but I never actually truly disconnected"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2733.659,"endTime":2737.859,"body":"and reflecting back on that, like I"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2733.659,"endTime":2737.859,"body":"never, I have not had a proper, like,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2737.889,"endTime":2740.559,"body":"unplugged vacation in a very long time."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2740.869,"endTime":2742.549,"body":"and that was part of the problem."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2742.549,"endTime":2745.789,"body":"And so, you know, I, I talked"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2742.549,"endTime":2745.789,"body":"to a number of folks afterwards"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2745.789,"endTime":2746.719,"body":"and they're like, are you sure?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2746.719,"endTime":2749.719,"body":"I took 10 days off between leaving"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2746.719,"endTime":2749.719,"body":"Spot and starting at Zapier,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2749.989,"endTime":2753.019,"body":"and a lot of people were like,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2749.989,"endTime":2753.019,"body":"are you sure 10 days is enough?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2753.204,"endTime":2758.364,"body":"And for most people, I would say like"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2753.204,"endTime":2758.364,"body":"take as much time off as you can."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2758.394,"endTime":2762.524,"body":"I have bills to pay for one thing and"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2758.394,"endTime":2762.524,"body":"second, this is just what I want to do."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2762.524,"endTime":2765.794,"body":"But for me, it wasn't the amount"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2762.524,"endTime":2765.794,"body":"of time off that I needed, it was"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2765.794,"endTime":2767.594,"body":"the physical change of environment."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2768.014,"endTime":2769.184,"body":"That I knew I needed."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2769.454,"endTime":2772.814,"body":"And you know, to be honest,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2769.454,"endTime":2772.814,"body":"I took those 10 days off."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2772.814,"endTime":2775.514,"body":"I have two weeks of onboarding"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2772.814,"endTime":2775.514,"body":"that I just completed, and now I'm"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2775.514,"endTime":2776.774,"body":"going on vacation for two weeks."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2776.774,"endTime":2778.814,"body":"So if you really think about it,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2776.774,"endTime":2778.814,"body":"it's like five and a half weeks."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2779.024,"endTime":2782.714,"body":"So yes, it's not a for a formal 10 days"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2779.024,"endTime":2782.714,"body":"off, I'm just getting paid for four of"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2782.714,"endTime":2784.784,"body":"those out, four of those five weeks."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2785.551,"endTime":2785.851,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2785.851,"endTime":2788.386,"body":"And, you mentioned earlier how"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2785.851,"endTime":2788.386,"body":"you still believe in the mission"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2788.386,"endTime":2790.786,"body":"of Spot and you still think what"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2788.386,"endTime":2790.786,"body":"they're doing is really awesome."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2791.146,"endTime":2791.776,"body":"And I agree with you."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2791.776,"endTime":2793.396,"body":"I've seen, I've seen their advertisements."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2793.416,"endTime":2794.646,"body":"Super cool product."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2794.646,"endTime":2794.946,"body":"I'm really"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2795.139,"endTime":2795.469,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2795.726,"endTime":2797.406,"body":"by what"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2795.726,"endTime":2797.406,"body":"y'all were building over there."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2797.646,"endTime":2801.11,"body":"so, you made this decision to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2797.646,"endTime":2801.11,"body":"leave a role where you were pretty"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2801.11,"endTime":2805.47,"body":"influential, you cared really deeply"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2801.11,"endTime":2805.47,"body":"about the mission, and you were"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2805.47,"endTime":2807.3,"body":"solving some difficult challenges."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2807.36,"endTime":2812.37,"body":"So what was the process of finally"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2807.36,"endTime":2812.37,"body":"deciding that you had to put yourself"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2812.37,"endTime":2816.27,"body":"first over this company that you"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2812.37,"endTime":2816.27,"body":"had grown pretty attached to?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2817.228,"endTime":2820.807,"body":"One of the things, my"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2817.228,"endTime":2820.807,"body":"dietician told me, I was talking to her"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2820.807,"endTime":2822.517,"body":"and she could tell how stressed I was."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2822.517,"endTime":2825.517,"body":"And you know, we've obviously been"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2822.517,"endTime":2825.517,"body":"talking for months about it at this point."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2825.517,"endTime":2830.407,"body":"And she just told me point blank, you are"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2825.517,"endTime":2830.407,"body":"never going to recover if you do not fix"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2830.407,"endTime":2831.967,"body":"the environment that is stressing you out."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2832.507,"endTime":2837.757,"body":"And to be told that it's like, oh,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2832.507,"endTime":2837.757,"body":"oh, okay, I guess this is actually"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2837.757,"endTime":2840.637,"body":"my responsibility and nobody's"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2837.757,"endTime":2840.637,"body":"gonna magically fix this for me."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2840.967,"endTime":2841.777,"body":"And."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2842.092,"endTime":2846.592,"body":"That same week I was having a conversation"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2842.092,"endTime":2846.592,"body":"with my best friend and there was"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2846.592,"endTime":2849.982,"body":"something that she had wanted me to do"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2846.592,"endTime":2849.982,"body":"and I completely dropped the ball on it."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2850.042,"endTime":2851.722,"body":"And I felt awful about that."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2851.972,"endTime":2855.412,"body":"and that, like, I was supposed to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2851.972,"endTime":2855.412,"body":"attend an event that I ended up"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2855.412,"endTime":2857.182,"body":"backing out of at the very last minute."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2857.242,"endTime":2860.182,"body":"And one thing she said to me was"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2857.242,"endTime":2860.182,"body":"like, I just want my best friend back."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2860.392,"endTime":2861.982,"body":"Like, you are, you are not yourself."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2862.012,"endTime":2866.232,"body":"And you know, my best friend can talk"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2862.012,"endTime":2866.232,"body":"to me however she wants because we, I"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2866.232,"endTime":2870.462,"body":"hope she could always be that direct"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2866.232,"endTime":2870.462,"body":"with me and to have my dietician call"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2870.462,"endTime":2873.822,"body":"me out and my best friend call me out,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2870.462,"endTime":2873.822,"body":"in that same week I was like, okay."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2874.272,"endTime":2877.122,"body":"Somebody needed to kind of give"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2874.272,"endTime":2877.122,"body":"me that swift kick to say, you"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2877.122,"endTime":2879.852,"body":"are responsible for this change"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2877.122,"endTime":2879.852,"body":"and you need to make this change."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2880.254,"endTime":2881.874,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2880.254,"endTime":2881.874,"body":"that's, that's, that's big."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2881.874,"endTime":2882.954,"body":"That's a big call out."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2882.954,"endTime":2885.084,"body":"Imagine that that hit pretty hard."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2885.234,"endTime":2885.532,"body":"So."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2885.72,"endTime":2885.99,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2886.04,"endTime":2891.38,"body":"I'm grateful to have a network and"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2886.04,"endTime":2891.38,"body":"have the relationships available to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2891.38,"endTime":2895.7,"body":"me to, tell me as it is and call me"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2891.38,"endTime":2895.7,"body":"out when I need to be called out."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2895.73,"endTime":2901.1,"body":"As I said, like my husband noticed"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2895.73,"endTime":2901.1,"body":"my change, my, my, my downward slope,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2901.55,"endTime":2905.87,"body":"months before I did, and you know,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2901.55,"endTime":2905.87,"body":"when you're so close to it, this goes"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2905.87,"endTime":2907.16,"body":"for anything that you do in your life."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2907.31,"endTime":2909.44,"body":"You know, when you're so close to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2907.31,"endTime":2909.44,"body":"something, you're the last person"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2909.44,"endTime":2913.845,"body":"to notice a change and it helps"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2909.44,"endTime":2913.845,"body":"to have those external factors of"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2913.845,"endTime":2916.685,"body":"somebody who can, keep you in check."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2917.429,"endTime":2919.769,"body":"and through all"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2917.429,"endTime":2919.769,"body":"this journey, you've started a new"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2919.829,"endTime":2923.339,"body":"newsletter that's a little bit more"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2919.829,"endTime":2923.339,"body":"personal than your last one, I would say."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2923.649,"endTime":2927.459,"body":"what was the motivation behind wanting"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2923.649,"endTime":2927.459,"body":"to share this journey so openly?"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2927.489,"endTime":2929.139,"body":"Because, I mean, it is"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2927.489,"endTime":2929.139,"body":"a vulnerable journey."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2929.139,"endTime":2932.769,"body":"You're talking about personal"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2929.139,"endTime":2932.769,"body":"health and deeply personal issues."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2933.149,"endTime":2935.219,"body":"why did you start this and"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2933.149,"endTime":2935.219,"body":"what are you hoping that other"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":2935.219,"endTime":2936.209,"body":"people would gain from it?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2937.092,"endTime":2942.012,"body":"When I published the blog"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2937.092,"endTime":2942.012,"body":"post on, or I guess the newsletter."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2942.012,"endTime":2946.182,"body":"On the modern leader on quitting"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2942.012,"endTime":2946.182,"body":"and burnout, and just talking about"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2946.242,"endTime":2951.527,"body":"my experience through that, the"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2946.242,"endTime":2951.527,"body":"number of, people who've reached"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2951.527,"endTime":2955.667,"body":"out to me to say, I am going through"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2951.527,"endTime":2955.667,"body":"something very, like very similar."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2955.667,"endTime":2960.497,"body":"And it wasn't until I read what you wrote"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2955.667,"endTime":2960.497,"body":"that you defined the problem for me."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2960.917,"endTime":2966.247,"body":"And it happens so often and we"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2960.917,"endTime":2966.247,"body":"are in such a, such a state right"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2966.247,"endTime":2968.377,"body":"now, and kind of going back to the"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2966.247,"endTime":2968.377,"body":"beginning of our conversation where"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2968.377,"endTime":2972.517,"body":"we are moving at lightning speed"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2968.377,"endTime":2972.517,"body":"and the job market is not great."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2972.517,"endTime":2976.837,"body":"Like we know that it's not great, and"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2972.517,"endTime":2976.837,"body":"so we do fear leaving as well, but"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2976.837,"endTime":2979.057,"body":"we can only handle so much of this."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2979.257,"endTime":2982.737,"body":"and when you're so deep in the"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2979.257,"endTime":2982.737,"body":"weeds of something as, as I said,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2982.737,"endTime":2985.707,"body":"like you don't typically notice,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2982.737,"endTime":2985.707,"body":"you're the last person to find out."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2985.857,"endTime":2987.957,"body":"And the number of people who"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2985.857,"endTime":2987.957,"body":"reached out to me saying like"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2987.957,"endTime":2989.667,"body":"this resonated with me so much."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2990.217,"endTime":2993.877,"body":"I have always been the type of"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2990.217,"endTime":2993.877,"body":"person who openly shares my journey"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2993.877,"endTime":2997.267,"body":"on, on whatever it is that I'm"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2993.877,"endTime":2997.267,"body":"thinking about or going through."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2997.307,"endTime":3000.487,"body":"this is a very heavy topic,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":2997.307,"endTime":3000.487,"body":"but I think it's a necessary"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3000.487,"endTime":3002.827,"body":"topic for people to understand."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3002.827,"endTime":3005.677,"body":"this is not an uncommon thing."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3005.947,"endTime":3009.397,"body":"This is something that a lot of"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3005.947,"endTime":3009.397,"body":"people go through very quietly."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3009.712,"endTime":3012.682,"body":"And there is an, there"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3009.712,"endTime":3012.682,"body":"is another side to it."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3012.712,"endTime":3015.922,"body":"There is a way out of it, but"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3012.712,"endTime":3015.922,"body":"sometimes you just need somebody"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3015.922,"endTime":3019.792,"body":"to hold your hand and say, you're"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3015.922,"endTime":3019.792,"body":"going through it and it sucks."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3019.792,"endTime":3022.132,"body":"And this is what it, it's gonna"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3019.792,"endTime":3022.132,"body":"look like on the other side."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3022.132,"endTime":3024.862,"body":"And this is everything that"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3022.132,"endTime":3024.862,"body":"I'm thinking about as I'm"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3024.862,"endTime":3027.622,"body":"continuing to process this myself."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3027.782,"endTime":3030.992,"body":"I am feeling infinitely"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3027.782,"endTime":3030.992,"body":"better than I did, you know?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3031.562,"endTime":3032.642,"body":"Weeks ago."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3032.942,"endTime":3036.392,"body":"But even then, like I still"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3032.942,"endTime":3036.392,"body":"have my bad days and I'm gonna"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3036.392,"endTime":3037.952,"body":"continue to have my bad days."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3038.012,"endTime":3039.812,"body":"And that's why I wanna journal about it."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3040.052,"endTime":3042.302,"body":"And I'm treating After"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3040.052,"endTime":3042.302,"body":"Burnout like a journal."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3042.512,"endTime":3045.932,"body":"Now my actual journal has"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3042.512,"endTime":3045.932,"body":"very different phrasing in it,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3046.802,"endTime":3048.422,"body":"which we are not sharing those."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3048.692,"endTime":3050.782,"body":"Um, so I am cleaning"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3048.692,"endTime":3050.782,"body":"things up a little bit."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3051.062,"endTime":3055.982,"body":"Uh, but, I want you to get a real look"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3051.062,"endTime":3055.982,"body":"into the day to day of what it looks"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3055.982,"endTime":3058.112,"body":"like to be recovering from burnout."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3058.112,"endTime":3059.462,"body":"And that is also why."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3060.212,"endTime":3062.912,"body":"I'm not following like a typical"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3060.212,"endTime":3062.912,"body":"publishing schedule for this."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3062.912,"endTime":3066.662,"body":"Like when I have a thought, I publish"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3062.912,"endTime":3066.662,"body":"it and you know, it might get annoying"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3066.662,"endTime":3069.032,"body":"at some point when you receive three"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3066.662,"endTime":3069.032,"body":"emails from me in a week, but it's"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3069.032,"endTime":3071.342,"body":"a very brain active week that week."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3071.342,"endTime":3072.722,"body":"So we'll see how it goes."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3072.722,"endTime":3076.112,"body":"I'm about 30 days into publishing at"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3072.722,"endTime":3076.112,"body":"this point, which is wild to think"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3076.112,"endTime":3077.012,"body":"that it's already been that long."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3077.494,"endTime":3077.614,"body":"I."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3077.797,"endTime":3078.277,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3078.427,"endTime":3081.607,"body":"It sounds like a cool journey that we'll"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3078.427,"endTime":3081.607,"body":"definitely be staying tuned for is we,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3081.607,"endTime":3085.502,"body":"we learn a little bit more about your"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3081.607,"endTime":3085.502,"body":"after burnout experience and something"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3085.502,"endTime":3090.562,"body":"that you've shared as a really powerful"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3085.502,"endTime":3090.562,"body":"takeaway as part of that is that it's okay"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3090.592,"endTime":3093.822,"body":"to outgrow a version of yourself that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3094.172,"endTime":3098.047,"body":"once Fit or once was like your"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3094.172,"endTime":3098.047,"body":"entire identity, it's perfectly fine."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3098.047,"endTime":3102.497,"body":"to completely shed that and become"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3098.047,"endTime":3102.497,"body":"someone new of those experiences."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3102.497,"endTime":3103.487,"body":"And I'm curious to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3103.487,"endTime":3107.197,"body":"know, based on the things you've"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3103.487,"endTime":3107.197,"body":"shared and how you're have this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3107.197,"endTime":3111.205,"body":"healthy outlook for your new role,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3107.197,"endTime":3111.205,"body":"how's your definition of ambition"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3111.205,"endTime":3113.82,"body":"and success shifted for you already?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3114.62,"endTime":3118.05,"body":"That is a really good"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3114.62,"endTime":3118.05,"body":"question, and I'm actually writing a, a"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3118.05,"endTime":3122.34,"body":"newsletter right now, like a longer form"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3118.05,"endTime":3122.34,"body":"blog post for paid subscribers right"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3122.82,"endTime":3125.79,"body":"now on grieving that loss of ambition"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3126.18,"endTime":3129.96,"body":"because I am still ambitious and I'm"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3126.18,"endTime":3129.96,"body":"always going to be ambitious because"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3129.96,"endTime":3134.58,"body":"this is who I am as a person, but how"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3129.96,"endTime":3134.58,"body":"I'm approaching ambition is different."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3134.58,"endTime":3138.75,"body":"This time I'm going in with a lot"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3134.58,"endTime":3138.75,"body":"more caution, and I'm going in"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3138.93,"endTime":3143.07,"body":"making sure that I'm keeping an"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3138.93,"endTime":3143.07,"body":"appropriate pace to my ambition."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3143.15,"endTime":3147.58,"body":"I'm talking to a coach right now"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3143.15,"endTime":3147.58,"body":"actually about this, I don't wanna end"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3147.58,"endTime":3150.94,"body":"up in the same position where I get"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3147.58,"endTime":3150.94,"body":"super, super excited about something"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3150.94,"endTime":3152.62,"body":"and suddenly have four jobs again."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3153.01,"endTime":3158.92,"body":"Um, that I want to balance that work-life"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3153.01,"endTime":3158.92,"body":"balance with my ambition, and I'm in the"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3158.92,"endTime":3161.29,"body":"process of redefining what that is for me."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3161.495,"endTime":3161.915,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3162.25,"endTime":3165.22,"body":"one of the things that"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3162.25,"endTime":3165.22,"body":"my coach asked me to do is write down."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3165.465,"endTime":3169.755,"body":"Every time I just feel that urge to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3165.465,"endTime":3169.755,"body":"like push a little bit more or like"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3169.815,"endTime":3173.385,"body":"take on this extra project or do"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3169.815,"endTime":3173.385,"body":"this extra thing that's not actually"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3173.385,"endTime":3177.615,"body":"part of my job description, just to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3173.385,"endTime":3177.615,"body":"show how frequently it's happening."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3177.665,"endTime":3181.865,"body":"So I can start to control that and I"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3177.665,"endTime":3181.865,"body":"can take that and say, all right, these"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3181.865,"endTime":3183.125,"body":"are the things that I'm thinking about."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3183.125,"endTime":3186.965,"body":"Let me put them in a, uh, like"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3183.125,"endTime":3186.965,"body":"into doist in like a little"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3186.965,"endTime":3188.555,"body":"note section or something."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3188.705,"endTime":3191.375,"body":"And if at some point I wanna"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3188.705,"endTime":3191.375,"body":"pull out of the bucket and act"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3191.375,"endTime":3192.725,"body":"on one of those things, great."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3192.905,"endTime":3197.165,"body":"But I no longer feel that need for"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3192.905,"endTime":3197.165,"body":"immediacy to immediately jump on that."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3197.465,"endTime":3201.845,"body":"And, you know, I'm learning to be happy"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3197.465,"endTime":3201.845,"body":"in the role that I have right now, and"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3201.845,"endTime":3203.945,"body":"that is a very new experience for me."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3204.445,"endTime":3207.085,"body":"Yeah, that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3204.445,"endTime":3207.085,"body":"impulse to prove yourself,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3207.185,"endTime":3207.785,"body":"Yes,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3207.895,"endTime":3208.675,"body":"in check."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3208.735,"endTime":3212.185,"body":"It's like I do that too, where it's"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3208.735,"endTime":3212.185,"body":"like that's how you end up in four jobs."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3212.185,"endTime":3215.995,"body":"It's because Andrew, you felt like"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3212.185,"endTime":3215.995,"body":"you had to prove to people that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3215.995,"endTime":3217.525,"body":"you could do four different jobs."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3217.525,"endTime":3219.595,"body":"It's like you wrote your"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3217.525,"endTime":3219.595,"body":"own fate with this one."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3219.665,"endTime":3220.595,"body":"exactly."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3220.705,"endTime":3222.715,"body":"be your own best ally."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3222.745,"endTime":3226.765,"body":"If you wouldn't give the person that"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3222.745,"endTime":3226.765,"body":"you work for the advice to go chase this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3226.825,"endTime":3230.785,"body":"unrelated thing to what they do every"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3226.825,"endTime":3230.785,"body":"day, then why would you go do it yourself?"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3230.845,"endTime":3230.935,"body":"You"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3230.945,"endTime":3233.895,"body":"Exactly, and that"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3230.945,"endTime":3233.895,"body":"is one of the biggest takeaways"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3233.895,"endTime":3234.945,"body":"I had from this as well."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3234.945,"endTime":3239.635,"body":"You know, I can spend all day"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3234.945,"endTime":3239.635,"body":"blaming my previous company for"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3239.635,"endTime":3243.725,"body":"giving me that, amount of work"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3239.635,"endTime":3243.725,"body":"to try to handle concurrently."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3244.37,"endTime":3248.15,"body":"I need to take responsibility for the"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3244.37,"endTime":3248.15,"body":"fact that I opened those doors and I"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3248.15,"endTime":3254.66,"body":"said, yes, give me these things to do,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3248.15,"endTime":3254.66,"body":"and I am responsible for my own future."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3254.69,"endTime":3258.05,"body":"It is not somebody else's"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3254.69,"endTime":3258.05,"body":"responsibility to choose that for me."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3258.05,"endTime":3263.21,"body":"And so knowing that about myself, that"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3258.05,"endTime":3263.21,"body":"I like opening these doors, I might"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3263.24,"endTime":3267.11,"body":"need to just like, you know, put a chair"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3263.24,"endTime":3267.11,"body":"under the doorknob so I can't open the"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3267.11,"endTime":3270.7,"body":"door or something like that, just to,"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3267.11,"endTime":3270.7,"body":"you know, prevent myself from, feeling"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3270.7,"endTime":3272.47,"body":"that urge to open more doors again."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3273.165,"endTime":3273.385,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3273.891,"endTime":3275.781,"body":"what you're"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3273.891,"endTime":3275.781,"body":"really kind of describing from my"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3275.781,"endTime":3279.651,"body":"perspective is like this idea of being"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3275.781,"endTime":3279.651,"body":"present in the current moment, being"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3279.651,"endTime":3282.081,"body":"conscious of your current situation."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3282.501,"endTime":3285.351,"body":"So I, you know, we might have some"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3282.501,"endTime":3285.351,"body":"listeners out there that are listening to"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3285.351,"endTime":3288.501,"body":"this right now, and they are themselves"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3285.351,"endTime":3288.501,"body":"are being present and conscious."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3288.816,"endTime":3292.506,"body":"And after listening to this or"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3288.816,"endTime":3292.506,"body":"thinking, wow, I might actually need"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3292.506,"endTime":3294.156,"body":"to create some change in my life."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3294.606,"endTime":3297.696,"body":"So let, let's talk about like the"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3294.606,"endTime":3297.696,"body":"transition that you've had coming"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3297.746,"endTime":3301.436,"body":"out of this burnout and how you've"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3297.746,"endTime":3301.436,"body":"started to rethink your priorities."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3301.436,"endTime":3305.216,"body":"So as you were considering your"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3301.436,"endTime":3305.216,"body":"next move out of spot and ultimately"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3305.216,"endTime":3307.736,"body":"leading to Zapier, excuse me, Zapier."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3307.939,"endTime":3309.109,"body":"Hey, you're learning."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3309.739,"endTime":3310.509,"body":"good job Ben."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3311.311,"endTime":3315.031,"body":"So what were the key"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3311.311,"endTime":3315.031,"body":"non-negotiable things that you looked"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3315.031,"endTime":3318.391,"body":"for in companies specifically around"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3315.031,"endTime":3318.391,"body":"like the culture and your role, just"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3318.391,"endTime":3321.541,"body":"to make sure that it was gonna be a"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3318.391,"endTime":3321.541,"body":"long-term, sustainable place for you?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3322.354,"endTime":3324.994,"body":"So when I was"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3322.354,"endTime":3324.994,"body":"thinking about what I wanted, some"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3324.994,"endTime":3327.244,"body":"of them are deeply personal to me."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3327.304,"endTime":3330.484,"body":"Um, I wanted to work for one"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3327.304,"endTime":3330.484,"body":"of two types of companies."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3330.514,"endTime":3332.134,"body":"One was fully remote."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3332.524,"endTime":3333.634,"body":"Remote by default."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3333.634,"endTime":3334.654,"body":"No offices."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3334.804,"endTime":3339.064,"body":"Not like a hybrid in-office, plus"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3334.804,"endTime":3339.064,"body":"remote model, or they had to have an"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3339.064,"endTime":3340.864,"body":"office in Atlanta that I could go to."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3341.224,"endTime":3345.424,"body":"I'm a very social person and so I"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3341.224,"endTime":3345.424,"body":"need to have that social connection."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3345.559,"endTime":3349.054,"body":"And a company that is remote by default"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3345.559,"endTime":3349.054,"body":"is going to intentionally create"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3349.054,"endTime":3352.594,"body":"that connection in a different way"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3349.054,"endTime":3352.594,"body":"that a company that has like a hybrid"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3352.594,"endTime":3354.364,"body":"model or an in-office model would."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3354.676,"endTime":3354.796,"body":"I"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3354.994,"endTime":3358.384,"body":"That was, that was"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3354.994,"endTime":3358.384,"body":"number one for me because part of"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3358.384,"endTime":3361.954,"body":"what contributed to the burnout"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3358.384,"endTime":3361.954,"body":"was also the feeling of loneliness"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3362.024,"endTime":3365.534,"body":"and feeling that isolation, and I"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3362.024,"endTime":3365.534,"body":"did not want to have that again."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3366.044,"endTime":3370.154,"body":"Number two is I am very passionate"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3366.044,"endTime":3370.154,"body":"about engineering leadership."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3370.404,"endTime":3372.564,"body":"I want to continue down that journey."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3372.564,"endTime":3376.374,"body":"There's a lot that I can learn still"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3372.564,"endTime":3376.374,"body":"from where I am today, and I've"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3376.374,"endTime":3380.214,"body":"taken a very roundabout way to get to"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3376.374,"endTime":3380.214,"body":"where I am today given my educational"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3380.214,"endTime":3384.577,"body":"background and, teaching myself how"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3380.214,"endTime":3384.577,"body":"to code versus the traditional, go"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3384.577,"endTime":3387.877,"body":"to school for computer science, get"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3384.577,"endTime":3387.877,"body":"your first job as an IC and move up."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3387.907,"endTime":3392.047,"body":"I went from teach myself how to code at 11"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3387.907,"endTime":3392.047,"body":"to go to grad school or undergrad and grad"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3392.047,"endTime":3396.762,"body":"school for something totally different"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3392.047,"endTime":3396.762,"body":"to, freelancing to running my own company."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3396.792,"endTime":3401.442,"body":"And then I finally took my first"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3396.792,"endTime":3401.442,"body":"air quotes real job in 2022 when I"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3401.442,"endTime":3402.672,"body":"started working for somebody else."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3402.672,"endTime":3404.892,"body":"So very, very different"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3402.672,"endTime":3404.892,"body":"path that I took there."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3405.072,"endTime":3408.702,"body":"So part of that wanted to, I wanted"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3405.072,"endTime":3408.702,"body":"to understand like how can I continue"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3408.702,"endTime":3410.172,"body":"to grow as an engineering leader?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3410.412,"endTime":3413.712,"body":"And one thing that I had never"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3410.412,"endTime":3413.712,"body":"experienced before was working at"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3413.712,"endTime":3418.962,"body":"a larger company, and I don't mean"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3413.712,"endTime":3418.962,"body":"like a Microsoft, like a 10,000 plus."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3419.262,"endTime":3420.602,"body":"You know, employees."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3420.842,"endTime":3423.722,"body":"The largest company I had worked"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3420.842,"endTime":3423.722,"body":"for was a hundred person company."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3423.932,"endTime":3427.982,"body":"Like there was a lot of room"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3423.932,"endTime":3427.982,"body":"for growth there, and in Zapier"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3427.982,"endTime":3429.902,"body":"hit that like perfect size."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3430.082,"endTime":3434.162,"body":"That gives me an opportunity to see things"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3430.082,"endTime":3434.162,"body":"at scale where I don't know everybody at"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3434.162,"endTime":3437.762,"body":"the company or everything that's going"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3434.162,"endTime":3437.762,"body":"on, and it's not my job to anymore."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3438.107,"endTime":3442.427,"body":"That is a skill that I need to learn, and"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3438.107,"endTime":3442.427,"body":"I know that about myself, but how can I"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3442.427,"endTime":3447.947,"body":"now contribute to a larger organization"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3442.427,"endTime":3447.947,"body":"where I'm playing a very critical role"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3448.157,"endTime":3453.407,"body":"in my zone and it's kind of forcing me"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3448.157,"endTime":3453.407,"body":"to kind of stay in my swim lane as well."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3453.407,"endTime":3453.437,"body":"I."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3453.767,"endTime":3456.977,"body":"Kelly, thank"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3453.767,"endTime":3456.977,"body":"you so much for joining us today."},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3457.247,"endTime":3461.002,"body":"Where can our listeners go to learn"},{"speaker":"Ben Lloyd Pearson","startTime":3457.247,"endTime":3461.002,"body":"more about you and to follow your work?"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3462.02,"endTime":3466.16,"body":"So my personal website"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3462.02,"endTime":3466.16,"body":"is KV, as in Victor, LL y.com."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3466.35,"endTime":3468.21,"body":"you can find most of my links on there."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3468.24,"endTime":3471.03,"body":"I have not linked after burnout on"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3468.24,"endTime":3471.03,"body":"there yet, so I need to do that."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3471.03,"endTime":3473.04,"body":"But that is@afterburnout.co."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3473.23,"endTime":3474.79,"body":"my other newsletter is Modern Leader is."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3476.053,"endTime":3476.593,"body":"Amazing."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3476.593,"endTime":3480.073,"body":"So we'll make sure that we include the"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3476.593,"endTime":3480.073,"body":"links to Kelly's newsletters in our show"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3480.073,"endTime":3482.323,"body":"notes, and it'll also be on Substack."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3482.323,"endTime":3485.263,"body":"Be sure to check out our"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3482.323,"endTime":3485.263,"body":"publication on Substack as well."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3485.441,"endTime":3486.611,"body":"we're recommending that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3486.626,"endTime":3488.666,"body":"You know the publications and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3486.626,"endTime":3488.666,"body":"they're recommending us as well."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3488.666,"endTime":3489.896,"body":"So both of them are connected."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3489.896,"endTime":3491.426,"body":"They're easy to find from each other."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3491.726,"endTime":3493.556,"body":"Be sure to follow these conversations."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3493.556,"endTime":3497.606,"body":"And I'm certainly gonna be reading along"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3493.556,"endTime":3497.606,"body":"on Kelly's After Burnout journey, and"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3497.606,"endTime":3499.466,"body":"I know that there's more ahead for her."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3499.736,"endTime":3503.806,"body":"And if you're listening, to this"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3499.736,"endTime":3503.806,"body":"episode and you got this far and you're"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3503.806,"endTime":3508.186,"body":"somehow not already subscribed to"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3503.806,"endTime":3508.186,"body":"Dev Interrupted, please do me a favor"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3508.186,"endTime":3509.626,"body":"before you leave and go fix that."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3509.846,"endTime":3514.661,"body":"you can join almost 20,000 engineers,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3509.846,"endTime":3514.661,"body":"and engineering leaders over on"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3514.661,"endTime":3520.211,"body":"Substack as well at Dev Interrupted dot"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3514.661,"endTime":3520.211,"body":"substack.com because each week we cover"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3520.211,"endTime":3522.341,"body":"the latest news in engineering and tech."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3522.341,"endTime":3525.941,"body":"We write deep dives and articles"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3522.341,"endTime":3525.941,"body":"related to our guests like Kelly today,"},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3525.941,"endTime":3527.441,"body":"and we cover so much cool research."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3527.441,"endTime":3529.241,"body":"and thanks again, Kelly for joining us."},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3529.386,"endTime":3531.006,"body":"Thank you so"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3529.386,"endTime":3531.006,"body":"much for having me again, as"},{"speaker":"Kelly Vaughn","startTime":3531.006,"endTime":3531.906,"body":"always, it's been a great time."},{"speaker":"Andrew Zigler","startTime":3532.661,"endTime":3533.711,"body":"See you next week y'all."}]}