Matt Pranka “Stop Looking For Tactical Ozempic”

We sit down with Matt Pranka to talk night vision as a real capability for law enforcement and SWAT, not a gear flex. The thread that ties it all together is simple: hard skills built through honest training create calm decisions when real fights unfold at full speed.
• night vision training built around application and shooting fundamentals
• positive identification limits at distance under white light and IR
• offsets, lasers, illuminators, and repeating reps to expose errors
• dry fire and efficient practice for busy officers and instructors
• separating real training from social media content and empty “systems”
• CQB mindset differences between winning the fight and trying not to lose
• why patrol shootings happen fast and why speed must be trained
• debriefs that focus on what went wrong and how to move forward
• setting training conditions that allow mistakes early and reduce defects later
• process-driven improvement over shortcuts and “easy button” promises
• the gap between basic qualifications and real operational readiness

If you would like to train with TTPOA, here is the training link: https://ttpoa.org/advanced-training

TTPOA Partnerships:

Jorge Pastore Foundation 

Law Enforcement training is essential for preparing officers to effectively and safely perform their duties. Everyone benefits from training, and by providing greater access to meaningful tactical training, we improve the lives of officers and the safety of our community. JPF was founded to honor the sacrifice of Officer Jorge Pastore and his passion for training.  We are proud to provide foundation-sponsored classes at no or low cost to law enforcement officers in various areas, including firearms training, defensive tactics & wellness.  In addition, we provide funding to officers seeking training outside of the central Texas area when approved by their department or association. 

https://www.jpastorefoundation.com/

The American Warrior Association

The American Warrior Association (AWA) is a faith-driven, research-based nonprofit dedicated to healing moral injury among service members, veterans, first responders, and their families. We provide faith-based healing, practical support, and comprehensive wellness programs to foster lasting resilience and spiritual strength.

https://www.awa-usa.org/programs/explore-awa-programs

Transcript

Welcome To The TTPOA Podcast

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Welcome to the TTPOA podcast, the podcast for swan officers, military, and all first responders. We'll be talking training, tactics, and leadership with the best subject matter experts around.

SPEAKER_04 0:17

All right, folks. Welcome back to another edition of the TTPOA podcast. Welcome to the Backyard Honky Tonk. Matt Smith, how are you doing today, man? Well, sir, how about yourself? Good. I got to clarify which Matt I'm talking about right now. So it's been a while since we've done some podcasts. And from y'all's point of view, but from ours, it's not. Feels like the conference was just a few weeks ago, and we did a lot back then. So now we're back in the mothership of the uh Backyard Honky Tonks. So a nice, beautiful uh Sunday evening. So enjoying joining your weekend.

SPEAKER_03 0:50

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_04 0:51

All right. So uh this handsome man we have across from us on my couch is no other than the notorious uh Matt Pranka, man. How you doing?

SPEAKER_01 0:59

I'm good.

SPEAKER_04 1:00

Welcome back to Texas.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Well good to be here.

SPEAKER_04 1:03

Came back, and man, you got your uh Texas Road show on the road right now?

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Yep, yep. I'll be here for already been here for a week and another couple weeks of training and classes.

SPEAKER_04 1:16

You got some red ass arms?

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Yeah, I keep coming in June. I don't yeah. I I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:22

The very first time you came was in August, man. It's hot. Yeah, you were miserable.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

One of these times I'm gonna figure out when it's it's cooler. March and April.

SPEAKER_03 1:32

Everything else is wet and cold or hot. That's pretty much it for us. March and April. That's funny.

SPEAKER_04 1:38

Yeah, that first class we had, we shot a rifle class, and man, it was so miserable hot. Yeah, we'd come back here, jump in the pool. He was burnoush ring. He's like, Man, I feel like I'm training on the sun. It's like, yeah, you kind of are in August.

SPEAKER_03 1:51

Now the humidity is just brutal. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:53

So well, you had a good week last week, though. You were an indoor 70-something degree range.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

It was perfect over at Fort Worth with Dallas. So we got to train inside for night vision. It was got here the first day. It was real rainy and looked the forecast like it was going to be rainy for four days. Like, oh man.

SPEAKER_05 2:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

And yeah, Fort Worth, Chansey hooked it up.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Let us into the range at night. Good thing it was a night night class. They were they were booked, but we we were able to sneak in there and get it all done. It was good.

SPEAKER_04 2:23

Yeah, he's good, man. In the factory, he's wanting guys to train, wanting guys to get better, and he'll do anything he can. And I'll the way it should be. So look at y'all, Dallas helping or Fort Worth helping Dallas guys. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:35

Yeah, well, and we had already reached out to them and had a couple of them in the class with some Irving guys, you know, to come in, and we didn't know we were going to end up needing that, but it worked out that you know that some Fort Worth guys in there. But we know we've had you guys out there, y'all have had us just paying it forward because not everybody has the ability to bring in somebody like him. You know, so we did that, and uh obviously we we're you're always never gonna never have everybody in town. We had guys already going on vacations and stuff, so we had some spots. Yeah, so we already had him coming in, so we threw those guys in there, and it was great. And you know, I knew most of the guys anyway, so it was really cool. That's good. We had the two Fort Worth and two Irving guys with my rotation, and it was it was great. We had a good time with them.

What Night Vision Training Should Be

SPEAKER_04 3:11

Well, good, man. Well, let's talk about that class because you're gonna be tomorrow and Tuesday, you're gonna be working with our team on night vision and stuff. So let's kind of get into that and then we'll just see where it goes from there. So when I talked to you about coming and doing a night vision class, you said how you're already working with Dallas and stuff like that. So tell me kind of what's your philosophy is as far as teaching Ellie with the night vision and that capability and what that looks like. Because I think it's we talked about this a little different than kind of military sometimes.

Positive ID Limits Under Night Vision

SPEAKER_01 3:39

It is, and I I think for me, I fo I try to focus the training on on the application, the shooting piece of it. You know, I'm not don't come in and try to I'm not the guy to go to that hey, how like you want to build a set of nods or understand exactly how it works. I want to want to focus on you know the application of skill with these things and how it enhances us on the shooting side, and then also from a training standpoint, training with them, it just it's you know, training at night during the day, I believe. The shooting piece of it is the same. It's just how we pay attention to the mistakes that we make and the cues that we have to pay attention to and things we have to do differently. Yeah, you know, they're very similar, but some things are unique, you know, whether it's starting on the Viz Lasers, white light, IR, and then going back and forth. For all that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:27

So we were also talking about kind of PID, what that looks like of in our world. You want to kind of how do you how do you approach that with law enforcement?

SPEAKER_01 4:36

So you know, with in the in the indoor range, we do the best way I think is to for guys to see it. You know, we'll do an actual demo where hey, let's put a guy, you know, we started off at at the 50 meter, 50 meter range or kind of diagonal, so a little bit more than 50 meters. And you know, Chris Palmer was out helping me with the course, and he was walking around and and kept changing objects in his hand, you know, and his his back to us. It's all done, super safe, but we are illuminating him and and showing, hey, look, like you can't tell what someone's holding at that distance, yeah, not under white light, not under the IR laser with the flood. So getting guys to understand, like there it's a huge like kind of force multiplier and it's a huge advantage for officers to have this capability, but it it's it's also presenting another series of challenges where if you don't have the guy shooting at you, you have to positively identify, and then it starts that whole discussion am I actually in danger because it's 50 yards, he doesn't know I'm here, yeah, right? Is it a credible threat? And then all of those things, and that's why for me, anytime I do classes like this, where inevitably you're going to start talking about like the the tactics piece and the legal part. I always have like Chris Palmer comes out, teaches with me, 26-year Phoenix cop, and he is able to speak to all of those things. For me, I can't, I've never been a cop, will never be a cop. Right? My area of expertise, you know, comes coming from my time in the military, and some things translate, but focusing on training, inevitably those discussions start about application, and Chris is there to answer the mail and all that stuff.

Offsets And Switching To IR

SPEAKER_04 6:18

No, that that's good that you recognize that because some guys don't, and they'll give you their military spin on it, and you're like, dude, I've been to classes, I'm like, what are you talking about, man? Like you can't do that here. Like, that's not gonna work. That's not gonna fly. So I'm glad you recognize that. Because that is a and even within states, man. I mean, there's some states you're like, I'm shocked with what guys can't do in some states. That is just what we do all the time here. So even within that and the law enforcement, it's still confusing and stuff. So what'd you get out of it, Matt? You were in the class, man, for two days. I got dirty guns out of it.

SPEAKER_03 6:55

That was great. And as to his point, you know, we had uh the first two days was the other crew, the other side of the house from us, and the last two days was us. And uh so we came in and we started all over again on uh Thursday, and some of the stuff that he was talking about, like you knew it was it was understood, but you're getting a that's where why you bring somebody like him in, you're getting a perspective. Like in his you know, in his history, his background, and his knowledge, this is how this pertains, this is how this works, here's my thoughts on this. And it's it's not like the laser works differently for him versus somebody else. Yeah. But he's explaining to you why this does this or why that doesn't do that, and being able to do that. And again, he had Chris there answering some questions. But here's the thing like if you if you are deploying with those and you're waiting on Chris to come in and tell you these things, you're already behind the curve anyway. He was just highlighting things, just to hey, think food for thought thinks about this. And so, as you know, we've had people bring this up about with like the advanced HR trying to implement night vision, and the guy shows up and he they're literally in the bag from L3, still in the plastic, and he's never taken them out of the bag. And he's like, How do I put these on? I was like, Man, this is not this is gonna be a long this is gonna be a long thing. So you if you're going to the going to this class with him, not knowing how to turn them on or not understanding some of that, it's gonna be a little bit harder for you. You're gonna be kind of behind. So this was a but it was you know, it was it was tailor-made for us, you know, the guys that reached out to him asking to do this, he set it up for us. It was great. We had you know, two days. We had some Viz stuff, white light, just explaining the offsets, and depending, you have a mall, you have a D-ball or a peck, or in his case an in-gow, each one of those devices is a little bit different to where the illuminator is and all this. So understanding all the offsets, you know, and how that corresponds to you know what you're seeing and all that. So it was it was it was great, you know, lots of different you know, shooting evolutions with white lights and vis lasers into the IR. But everything that we did, I think, Matt, we we did with Viz Laser, we turned right around and did it with IR, right? So it was yeah, it was just repeating it, and you're okay. I they've done it under white light where they're safe now. I'm watching them do this, and you would see where I was shooting lower every time.

SPEAKER_05 9:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:02

I kept shooting low.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

So I think there's a lot that guys can can pick up on the the training side, like in that in the indoor range, right, or at dust training with the with the Viz Laser, because you still have you know normal, your natural field of view, right? Your ability to focus, you know, add depth at different tar is is much, much easier. And then you you just add another like close off the field of view, you know, focal plane is different, and that just adds a modifier, but it's still the same things we're paying attention to over and over. And shooting is the shooting, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:38

Yeah. Well, it's so dark in there. I mean, that thing is dark, and so you don't have um your light or your your illuminator on, I mean, you can't see five feet in front of you unless there's somebody has like a helmet light or something. So what it does is if you're if you're watching your dot is very clear because there is no peripheral. I mean, even just moving between targets that when he put them up, like we knew had a generalized idea where they were. Yeah, say 15-25 yards. And yet you still would find yourself because it is so dark in there, you're using that illuminator and you're and you just watch guys, their eye, their head would just move their illuminator because you you're just happy, you know, as opposed to you know, so it it it high it highlights what either you're doing it right or wrong, you'll see it real quick. And he would just uh stand by us and go, You're doing this wrong, you're doing that wrong, whatever. You know, that can't it's it's easier to see for him.

SPEAKER_04 10:24

So we're good. Well, you'll have a nice uh mosquitoes and snakes and all kinds of stuff where we're gonna be training the next two days. So perfect. Yeah. So we won't spoil you with air conditioning and and and like good toilets. We'll be a portageon and stuff, so we'll be right back.

SPEAKER_03 10:42

Spare no expense.

Making Time To Train While Busy

SPEAKER_04 10:43

Yeah, yeah. So you've been busy, man. You've been uh doing all kinds of stuff. Man, you're always training, man. That's what I like about you. You're not just one that just Hey, I want you to do it this way, do it this way, because this is the way I say it. You you're always exploring and you're always uh pushing the limits to see where you are. And and I appreciate that. So what does that look like for you? Because you're so busy.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

How do you maintain that training schedule and and just being able to do things one thing that I've learned by by being that busy is is how I rely on dry fire, you know, the efficiency of training, like when I have time to train, or I'm not wasting time doing it. Little things, you know, what uh I'll go if I go shoot pistol, like I am fortunate enough now, like I can I can have everything loaded and go out and have you know 500 rounds of pistol to where I'm not wasting time doing that, especially when I'm you know balancing, you know, when I'm at home, I want to give the family as much as I can, but still there's this under underlying, I don't know, drive for me where I'm like, I'm I need to keep getting better. I'm watching all these guys that I associate with get better and better and better. And you know, that train keeps going. And I think it you've got to focus, you know, especially as an instructor or somebody that's going to convey ideas, you you have to one continue to develop yourself. Yeah, you know, speaking with a guy today, I was like, you know, so much of my training now is me trying to disprove things that I know to be true to myself to see if they need to be, you know, re-evaluated and evolved. You know, in terms of how I how I approach like you know, predictive shooting as a training tool and reactive shooting, you know, if and it's all done where am I still doing the right thing performance-wise? Can I get more performance out of myself in terms of shooting? And then how can I make the explanations of this stuff simpler?

SPEAKER_03 12:43

Is that an internal checks and balances, or is it a balance of internal and then the external people asking you?

SPEAKER_01 12:52

I think it I think part of it, you know, it's obvious it starts internally, you know, and then I I have uh you know a great group of guys that I rely on for training that I'll freely share information with to as like a check, like, hey, am I is this right? Is this does this make sense? This is what I'm seeing, this is what I'm seeing in my training, this is what I'm thinking, you know, everything from you know Ben's uh non-stop 24 hours a day resource of just hitting them up and sharing information and ideas, and then you know, Mike and kind of the the group of guys that I like will we'll discuss shooting. And it's all guys that I know they're putting in more work than I am, right? And then that's an external motivator where I gotta you're getting better. Why I gotta do more, you know? And it's like this it's like you ever gone on like a distance run with somebody, like, hey, let's just go for a little run. And if you get within their eyesight, and then pretty soon you're in a race, right? And that's where I think that that external motivator yeah, it is a competitive nature. I mean, everybody like in this little group are all competitive shooters, they're all competitive people and competitive personalities that want to, you know, test themselves, you know, test themselves against other people, and in so it it is like a external motivation and a driving force for this.

SPEAKER_03 14:15

Well, there's the most competitive games draw the most competitive people. Yeah, and I think it's very true in that regard.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think you know, the like the business you're in, the business I was in, it's that's just that is competition shooting at its best, you know. Oh, yeah. And and you want to win, you know, because winning means that you you're doing everything right, you're you get to go home every night, you get to continue to go on to our and be the one that they call for the hardest, you know, most challenging tasks. Yeah, absolutely.

Content Versus Training In Real Life

SPEAKER_04 14:44

Well, I think too, people that don't know you had conversations with you or been to a class with you, and just know you from Instagram, they have a different perception of actually who you who you truly are. You're I think you're mr I think you're mis misunderstood a lot. Like it's not just shooting that you train. There's other things that you train besides just that. Everybody just sees that because that's what you're putting out, because that's what your your company is mainly about. So they don't even understand some of the other stuff that you're even doing as well, you know.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

Yeah, I think for me it's that the the outward perception is is what from a training standpoint with things that that I valued, you know, throughout my career, that I still value, that that made me better, that that make me here able to talk, and yeah those are the things that I want to promote, you know. I want to promote guys, you know, internally motivated guys, take your your own development serious and start train train these hard skills, right? This is the easiest thing to talk about.

SPEAKER_05 15:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

You know, I'm not I don't get off on like discussing like a lot of the other things that I'm training at, you know, for my own development, you know, personally, professionally. Like those are all things that I'm doing, and I don't think a lot of that stuff needs or I would say I don't feel like I would have the the the right um skill level to sit there and start talking about that stuff like I'm an expert at you know and that's one of the problems with the way people are now absorbing content and you know the the demand signal is now feeding into like content creators that are just talking and and making stuff just to make it.

SPEAKER_04 16:28

You you you you posted, I think it was yesterday or the day before, and I I'll probably butcher it, but it was basically it was someone else's I think dry fire video and you shared on your story, and it was basically the same thing about content. People create content and then this is actually training. I mean, I and I like that because that guy posted it to show his training and his progression in the training, not for just hey, I want content just so I can have more followers and all that kind of stuff. And there's a big difference in that.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

Yeah, I see gu I see tons of guys like that that are, and I think that is I forget his name. I'd like to say it, but but I've watched him, yeah, right. It's on as I'll I'll find it. Yeah, but I've watched him from four years ago, like first answering messages, and I always tell everyone, like, people that reach out to me, you know, my enthusiasm for your development is gonna match your commitment. Yeah, if I see you working, like that motivates. I'll give you whatever information if I don't know that if I don't know it, I'll I will uh you know, I'll find I'll find the answer. I'll I'll hook you up with the guy that does that. And I see it, I see that as like the most you know beneficial thing for guys to guys that want to learn. It's not, oh, you need to you need to sign up with this class or here, get into my you know, paid subscription thing, and that's where the answers are gonna be. And I just put teasers out here. Like I I want guys to get better, I want them to train. Yeah, and the the the there's so much information out there, you know, part of the barrier to to having guys develop their hard skills and overdevelop it is one, you got to sift through what's right, what meets you, what's right for you, what's right for your application, what you need it to do, what's real and what's not real, yeah. Right, that's becoming harder and harder now to see like what is content and what's actual training.

SPEAKER_04 18:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

And then other than that, once you're and you really don't need to sift through those barriers, that barrier too hard, as or defeat that barrier too hard, as long as you're willing to work. Yeah. And that's the biggest way. Just start doing something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:31

No, and you told me that I mean early on when we in in our in in this meeting, and uh man, you you you've hold you've held true to that with me. There's never been any time that I've asked a question, we've had conversations at three in the morning because you're somewhere and I'm you know up at the whatever. Man, you've always been accessible. So I I do appreciate that. Like a couple years ago, you set up the tier one cops, and it's all just cops and you, and man, there's fucking discussions on all kinds of shit on that deal, man. But there's a lot of learning that goes on, there's a lot of information sharing. I mean, those guys shot that match uh this weekend, and there were several guys on that group, and everybody was like, hey man, how do we do better? How do we do this? And that's that community within the in that community that that that you're responsible for starting that in the law enforcement.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Culture in a culture, yeah. And we talked about this at the end of the course. It's like it's the worst advice that I give as someone who runs a training company, yeah, is getting team, you know, intact teams to recognize like you possess all of the experience, all of the knowledge, and everything to train yourself. Yeah. Right? In absence of anyone from the outside. Right? You no one knows your business and what you need more, and then figuring out, you know, where like that's why I like goals rather than standards. Right? Keep set a goal, meet it, push on, keep going, you know, because in terms of the skills, you know, we use that analogy. Like, there's there's never a boxer that's like, I'm too fast and I punch too hard.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Right? You're not gonna go find that guy. Yeah, it's never gonna be a negative thing. Yeah. Speed and speed and accuracy and power, right? That's never gonna be a negative thing. Yeah.

unknown 20:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

So I think in terms of hard skills, like that's why I emphasize like focus on the hard skills. Over you'll you will never hit an endpoint. Yeah, you'll just keep continue to overdevelop them.

SPEAKER_03 20:27

And I I think you being in your position where you see just this wide variety of people, whether it be content creators or or dudes that truly just want to get better, and everything in between, right? There's just these not going to these they build these little empires where they they do not want anything said differently, or if you say something that they agree with, then they jump onto it, like, oh, well, he agrees with me or whatever. And I and I think you probably, you know, I don't know, is that a challenge to sort that out? Because like, or do you like I know it uh right away what this guy's after, or I know he's trying to draw me off sides, or you know, how how much is that challenge to that? Because I'm sure you probably get a lot of either videos or requests, or hey, what are your thoughts on this? You know, and it's it's probably a juggling act, you're trying to help them, but at the same time, we talked about a little bit earlier before we got on, is like you're trying to be just direct with them because we don't have time to do this, and then they they push back.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they'll they'll a hundred percent push back, or and it is that right, that's a good uh way to say it, right? Like they're trying to draw you off sides, and yeah, hey, but you ask me my opinion, that's my opinion. Like, let's first and foremost, let's not forget who contacted who. Yeah, oh yeah, right. I've had that conversation before and and there's a there's a lot of people like that. Like, yeah, let's let's not ever forget who's paying attention to who's doing what, right? I'm not I'm looking at a very small group of guys in terms of curriculum development and training development and in evolution, right? I'm not paying attention to the vast majority of anybody as like something that I want to emulate or do. So that's that's one thing, you know, that's easy to sift through, you know, because over the over the last five years, you know, we hear more and more people now using the same words that that myself, that Ben, that Juan have used for years. Yeah. Right. And it's good. It's like I believe that that's right. You know, but also don't get tied to it. It may change.

unknown 22:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

Something may be different, you know, as we figure some figure another thing out. The explanations keep getting shorter. You know, you'd think you I know you've you've got to train with Huanzik before. I mean the way that his brain works about training and shooting, it's just like for me it's like you can I got to do it in like short doses. It's like I listen to what you say, following what you're doing, you know, and now it's like I need to go sit somewhere and unpack this and make sure that I understand it because he understands it just at a completely different level the same way you know that Ben does the same way that Joel does. And they all explain things a little bit differently.

SPEAKER_04 23:07

That that that is the nice thing is like when I had uh Sean out a couple months ago we did the podcast with him and uh we kind of talked about some of the same stuff and and just sidebars and conversations we'd have I'm like man you know what what you're saying I've heard it but the way your your twist on it I really like that it really resonated with me or you added more to it that I'm like oh I really get that now or it reaffirms what I already knew which is also a good thing too. So I do appreciate instructors and and it is like yeah well yeah here's here's who who I grew up you know watching and and and learning from and I've just taken it and made it my own but it's still relatable and it's still practical and it and and it still goes back to the work that he was putting in or any of these instructors are putting in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

Because if you don't man it it you you see it and Sean Sean's a you know the a a perfect example right of a law enforcement guy high level competition grant man and he can he explains it well from everything I've heard watching him talk online. I've never never trained with him in person. But the other thing he can stand there and deliver it. Yeah right like without a doubt like this is like at a very high level demonstrate it and and I think it I don't think his he's doing that like he can he can only do that with the things that he wants to teach. No. Those high level guys like you put them on anything yeah and you that you're going to see performance.

SPEAKER_04 24:40

And and I think that's where and and it this is not a so if anybody's listening online like oh Brandon is just you know kissing his ass. It's not because I truly know you and we've had a lot of conversations. And I think that's where a lot of people see the persona on Instagram oh you're in you're calling out no there's a lot of dudes you don't call out because they're doing the right way. It might not be the exactly the way you might present it or you but they're not being just all about their business and selling a bunch of bullshit and and just being just dicks about some stuff. And I for me I appreciate that like like we said hey directness sometimes doesn't fly well with a lot of people especially if you call them on their bullshit. And I think that's important.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

I think the a lot of that gets you know I've never thought when I when I started my company that I would have other grown alpha type men call me toxic. Yeah it was I was like that just wasn't even a word that was in in my you know there's but that became it becomes like a buzzword right it's that's toxic leadership. Yeah. Now that's just what leadership looks like when you look up at from the bottom sometimes. Yeah.

unknown 25:54

Yeah.

CQB Debates And The Need For Speed

SPEAKER_03 25:54

Well would it be safe to say and you know I think everybody has their own perspectives of it. If we sat down we talked about let's just say CQB which is the most biggest you know Pandora's box you can open right talking about religion. Yeah absolutely yeah and with all three of us it like if we talked about it for two straight hours there's going to be some things we disagree on or have a different perspective on. But it's not like I'm gonna sit there and go, well I'm gonna discount anything you say now because I don't agree with it. And that's the problem that I see and it's not just it's I think and and I then CQB like I know people that go Matt I don't even want to talk about CQB because they the fight that it in that in it's ensuing after that and it is brutal and then they come and they ask or they come to a class and Brandon and I have talked about this at great lengths like like like to your point remember you signed up for this class like you know chose us or selected whatever and we're giving and I lead off like look I'm not here to talk about what you do back home. Like that's not my mission. I don't know and I don't care not to say what you're doing is wrong. We're here to show you our perspective not the way it's a way it's the way that we do it here's what we're showing you. I think any good student should be able to walk in there for two or three days and do exactly what you asked us to do. I mean like I there I never thought for a second with the two days with you well I don't agree with that so I'm gonna do my own thing. No I I think any good student you should do that and hear what they have to say and then I can compare notes and go, hey, here's a reason why I don't agree with her I don't know but if I just discount it and don't do it you know does that make sense and so I I I think you're you know I'm sure because of your position you're probably seeing even more of that and they're pushing back and you're like well then why did you ask?

SPEAKER_01 27:37

I think there people you know the the CQB debate it's brutal I get more more hate mail gatekeeping dude I'm not a proponent of the Second Amendment because I'm not out there training you know everyone you know that wants to do an open enrollment CQB course. And it's it's like you know my belief on the training training anything right in CQB is the prime thing. If if I am if it's a requirement for me to run a hundred meters in 11 seconds I am never going to train to do it in 15 or 20 yeah right I'm going to be going fast and hard all the time and that's what people don't don't understand. Like I am a huge proponent of training dynamic points of domination CQB from my experience that is the hardest thing to execute it's the hardest thing to be very precise at right you have to have the best shooting skill to do it you have to have the best communication stuff you have to have the best conceptualization understanding of what that tactic of CQB is to execute that. And then if there's a time where you need to be slow right and you need to be methodical and you need to be quiet you have that skill set because but everyone's well no then we just run into our death I mean that just means like then you don't even have the right brain like you're not thinking when you when you go onto a you just shut it off and like I'm just going to go on full auto pilot autopilot mode and do what I've what I've always done in the shoe house. Yeah. No it's like we're talking about the training piece of it not once have I ever like talked about an application like you know you tell guys like hey what you're doing in the doorway is not safe for these reasons right and this this is the history of that TTP this is where it comes from in the military but the wall stop bullets and we did it at night. Yeah like you can take that information believe it or not but I know one thing that everyone that I know who does CQB as a profession their number one the number one thing that they're thinking about is dominating the target. Yeah everyone that does CQB as an enthusiast their number one thing they're thinking about is their own safety. Yeah and it's not a safe thing right so right off the bat like we're not having the same conversation yeah right you want to be safe and I'm telling you that this business is not safe and there's nothing you can do you can execute it perfectly you can do everything right charges are like everything is perfect and still lose. Yeah because it's the nature of that business.

SPEAKER_03 30:19

It sure is well go ahead no go ahead man I was going to say is are you there to win or are you there not to lose? And I think it's like prevent defense and all on football you know they get in that they get in that shell defense and they just march right down the field and as opposed to what maybe got them there putting pressure you know being aggressive being proactive you may have sacked quarterback and solved this but nope you stood back let them just dictate to you went right down the field and they scored and you just lost the damn game. Yeah I think it's I think that's very robust to parallel and we see it all the time people coming in talking and believe me we make our mistakes we are not perfect by any means my God we make mistakes and we've m we will continue to make them however we try to make them at full speed and we're trying to be speed is your security and we run again we talk about this I have very fortunate in my career to run a lot of warrants a lot of operations and great 90% of them have been in a dynamic fashion and I'm here to tell you like I can't imagine doing it any other way. And people go well that's Matt because you've only been trained that way. No I've been trained in a lot of different disciplines but I'm here to tell you after all these years I'm still in believe a big believer in this and here's the reasons and the data behind it but then they'll argue with you about it and I'm like I'm sorry I I I that's your opinion you're m absolutely entitled to it but it's not going to change my perspective. And then they like you said they lash out well you're just you know you're gatekeeping. That's a good term to use or you're you know you're trying to prohibit them like where is the benefit of me keeping you from doing that. Yeah I'm not gonna there's nothing for me to do that but yeah you see it and it's uh it's it's a it's a conundrum that you just can't get out of almost with some of those people the other one I don't I that that drives me nuts is someone will will put out a video in the public sphere right or they're they're making a training video or something and then you comment on it.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

And that comment is direct and not positive and not supporting yeah you know it's not like oh you fucking piece of shit but it's it's not supporting their idea or their concept and then somehow that's a negative well you don't understand the context. Well I also didn't make the video man you did and I read the write up and I watched it and then this is what I see. So if there's more context that's up to the creator of that video to put that out and but I'm going off of what I heard you say the message what I saw and and then this is my view. And they're like and it always defaults to where like you know we're just not going to acknowledge that you you take like well we're just we're morally above it or what whatever. We're blocking you Matt we're blocking you're blocked. Whatever that's the bit the best one yeah just block me please it it's better.

SPEAKER_04 32:53

Well I think too like going back to the whole CQB deal I think there's there's there's teams or there's guys that have the philosophy of this is a defensive mindset or there's other guys and I think we're all on this side it's an offensive we're being aggressive pushing the offense we we are going after you we're trying to clear as much space as we can and we're trying to take this house or whatever structure down as fast and efficiently as we can and that's the offensive mindset. And where other teams are like let's play defense let's do this I'm like man you give anybody enough time to do stuff and they'll they'll they'll wreck your world up man they'll do all kinds of stuff especially in your house for four hours you give them 45 seconds I mean always talk about you know just split times 20 20 split times that's five rounds in a second okay so one second is five rounds so now we got two seconds now there's ten rounds like just if you start just doing that math you realize how uh efficient you better be on things and how one thing can lead to now that's one second here and then this is three more seconds here and now you've given someone 42 seconds that's a lot of damn rounds someone could do or a lot of things that they can cover. And I don't think people really understand that sometimes it's just well if we don't do this they won't well how do you know this?

SPEAKER_01 34:16

There that's the you know it's when you when you start having these discussions about CQP you're talking about kind of three different threat levels. Right? You're you're you're talking about a real threat right things that we've seen right the most likely course of action and most dangerous course of action right those are threats that we've seen we those are things we know exist. Yeah then there's this the perceived threat well what if this well what if this and then there's those straight theoretical threats and a lot of that stuff comes out in like four something well you know now you got to look at the angles it's like you you there's four of us we can't cover all the angles yeah right it's 360 degree world like you cannot cover the and then also it's like well what about this guy is three rooms deep shooting through a tiny and that's how he's he's hitting the team yeah then we're all gonna get stacked there. But also now show me that guy in reality. Yeah right and and inevitably someone well this one time no when have you experienced it on this team right never okay let's talk about what you have experienced and then let's talk about let's train to the most you know we understand the most likely course of action of the adversary let's talk about the most dangerous thing that the most dangerous thing that any suspect or adversary can do is they want to fight inside the room. Right? So what are we doing to prevent that? Right? And that's then you start to see well the right answer in my opinion is always going to be I want to fight this at full speed. I want to steal time away so I'm doing things faster than his perceived you know real time you know real life speed and and how I always explain that you think if you are if you are in your driveway and you're sitting there and then all of a sudden you like shit I left my wallet in my bedroom right which is a lot of people I'm sure you've seen it retreat right from what I've seen they retreat back deep into the house they go to a bedroom and they usually all stand in one thing where they can see the doorway and they're deciding what do they want to do. The the real you know real life speed is that guy opens his doorway quickly walks back to his room gets his wallet and leaves he can conceptualize how long it took to get back there. If I can do anything faster than what he conceptualizes as real life speed I'm stealing that time. Yeah and I'm putting him off balance and I'm giving myself the advantage right where I've I've already lost surprise it it's the first thing you lose on any assault once you go in there you either give it up willingly like knocking an announce or it you give it up unwillingly where it's just a byproduct of of the the the techniques that you're using. When I do that I I lose that that principle I give that one up I have to leverage the other two right speed is the next one right it's the next one that we're gonna leverage and it's also the next one that we're gonna lose right if he wants to fight and it becomes a true barricade we're gonna lose the ability to go fast. And then we leverage you know it's violence of action I think we were talking about this earlier if I had my way back in the 80s I probably would make that initiative right because it's not violence of action to means initiative right initiative gaining devices. Yes things that I can employ different strategies right that I can employ to regain that initiative. Sometimes time is that yeah it's a barricade right we're gonna not pursue bullets are coming out of the doorway I'm not saying ever that we're gonna run through that door but we pull back and now time is what we're using to gain you know surprise back again. Yeah you know and I think Chris says it the best we say like law enforcement is you know a million and oh in waiting guys out there's not a burglar anywhere that's still in the building. Yeah you know and then you just but but understanding that you know to conceptualize CQB differently than what I think what what gets put out you know in terms of on YouTube or you know social media and I think there's also it's a big it's a big consideration for departments for individuals to look at is am I taking my training in developing the way that I'm doing business based off of something that I saw on social media or something that I saw on YouTube that I haven't experienced firsthand. Yeah and that's I think that's a that's a dangerous thing right like I know I get I I was hired by Dallas to come here you know and a a large part of that is be because of people's perception or understanding thinking what I used to do in the military. Right? There's so there was some level of research that hey this is what I'm gonna do. Yeah or we're gonna hire him because of this because of skills that we believe he has to come and convey this information but that level of scrutiny for hiring like me doesn't apply when people are you researching like who's talking on this video like where does this information come from or are you looking for that are you looking at this video as information or are you just bored and absorbing content? Yeah both of those are equally as bad. No they are right because it starts to it starts to mess with your the way that you perceive reality the you know that's fucking what social media what Instagram is designed to do.

SPEAKER_03 39:45

Yeah yeah well I think as a professional in any business if you're doing your job the right way and you care and you're putting in great effort to be really good at it whether you're the greatest or not that's that's not the point. You're trying really hard to be great. It is kind of like we talked about the other day if it's a good plan it'll stand up to scrutiny. You may be able to come in and go hey maybe we ought to do this and then if you are a professional like you know what that's a good idea Matt let's change that. Or like hey I thought about that but here's the reason why I don't want to do it because of ABC 123. Like okay fine I think good good pros can do that in any business but what happens is in my opinion what I see is that they they they ask a pro or what they perceive to be a pro, your opinion or this. And then when it goes where it doesn't line up or it's not what and I I think and Barry and I talk about this I think there's the it's broken down into a couple groups. One you have guys who just simply just do not understand what they're asking and like they don't have a concept of operations because they've never done it. Doesn't mean they may not have been able to do it but because of the SOPs or their command will allow them to do certain things so they don't have a reference to a like a dynamic entry and all this. Or you have two group that just they're not capable. Like they do not possess the skills to do this and nobody's ever told them or they refuse to listen to it. Or the ones that just don't care what anybody else says they go I'm building these little empires I want to stay here I don't make a decision that's based on promotability or sustainability. I want to stay here forever and I want to be this guy and I I see that group working in and out and I think that's what you're talking about to some of them. Does that make sense?

Leadership Support And Agency Reality

SPEAKER_01 41:18

Yeah yeah the the you know the people build walls around like ways of thinking yeah and the hardest thing for them they build it over time and it's thick and it's big and it's tall and the hardest thing for them to do is when you come in and present something that you know to be true right and then you try to hey you've got to take part of this wall down. They're like I've been building this for 30 years I can't take this wall down. Yeah. Right? It's and that's and then you can't you can't affect that then good luck. You know it's but like I know I know from you know just like everywhere in the military though all the lessons that they learned doctrinally were were paid for in blood they yep you know we do business a certain way because of loss for that not because of wins. So every time we lose it's looking hey are is what we're doing right? Yeah is this the best thing or does something need to change?

SPEAKER_03 42:11

Has the battlefield changed that fast to where now what we're doing is no longer effective do you think leadership or lack of leadership in a lot of those places is a reason why you see it could be everybody did everything okay just it was just that one off where we did everything right and it still went bad for us which can happen or they feel like because something went bad we have to change something because I have to show that I'm doing my job.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

Yeah yeah no I think that is and and you know it's it's hard it's hard for me to speak about like the leadership part in LE or like well this is what I think but but it does make sense to me that it it is lack of lead to stand up and say hey I support like I would love it just to see police chiefs rather than you know everyone's guilty of whatever and the worst thing is like no I support what my officers did and this is right because of this way and then actually have those stars on your collar flex them use them for what they're supposed to be and stand up for for dudes doing things right because I think the vast majority of guys are you know from the LEO side are are doing it all right. Right. But they're also very very apprehensive about what's going to happen to them if they do it wrong. And that's driving decision making processes and that's driving trickles down bad outcomes you know because they're like I don't or I know if I do this I'm I'm I could potentially lose my job because no one supports me.

SPEAKER_05 43:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

Right? And it's and there's all of those factors in there. So I think it is it it does make sense to me that that it it does become a leadership issue but again I abandoned the uh the idea years ago that any of these organizations are going to change. Yeah. It's the the best thing you can do is change individual individual officers at the lowest level, the end users, and set them up for success the best way that you can. Because you know Trojan horse it kind of.

SPEAKER_02 44:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

Yeah. Yeah. Until you until you you get, you know, chiefs of police and commanders that are not political, right? And they're also not so far disconnected.

SPEAKER_04 44:24

And that's not happening.

SPEAKER_01 44:25

And removed. And I think there there's there should be, right, Lair? There should be some sort of requirement. Like if you if you are going to be a commander of the you need these experience levels. Yeah. Yeah. Right? It's not it's not you just promote the first time it's available every time.

SPEAKER_03 44:40

It sends you there to get experiences. Like it's a little late in the game.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:44

Well, having been there where I've seen a lot of change in command, good ones and bad ones. And the ones that were, you know, the best ones were obviously the ones that have been there that had done, you know, small team tactics, you know, they don't see the grand picture of, you know, 3,000 officers. They see the 30 right here. And uh the ones that do that, they can break break it down to a micro level, are usually the most successful. And they're also the ones that are competent. They go, hey, what do you believe? What do y'all? And they they show up for training, they know what you're capable of. So when you say something on the radio and go, hey, we need to do ABC 123, they're like, Yeah, let's do that, or that's approved, or whatever, because they they trust that because they they were there. There's one time we had Mark Villarrell, who's now a two-star chief with us, he was he came over to SWAT right after I did, and we ran wars together, and he came back as our lieutenant. He was there as our major. And so when he was working the CP and you would say, Hey, we need to do this, he 100% knew exactly what you were saying. He he knew in his mind and he could see that overlay, that conceptual operations. Absolutely, it's approved, go get that done. And it was it just streamlined our process, and while he was there, it was like it was like a heyday for us because it was so nice having that guy because he could he could run interference with the stuff that didn't people didn't didn't need to get involved with, and at the same time, he spoke your language and he understood that and it's you know and he's done it really well. And so, and it been on the other side where he didn't have that, it's it's hard, it's uh it's a hard push.

SPEAKER_01 46:05

Yeah, it's I mean it's it's common sense, right? You see it in the military, and I get it, law enforcement is you know, pseudo mil pseudo-military type organization or paramilitary type organization, but infantry officers run infantry battalions, supply officers don't run supply uh infantry battalions, yeah, right, because you don't have the experience in that world to do it. Yeah you know, and that's the thing. It's like you to take command of you you should be an expert at what you're taking command of. Right. Right. And I think that usually isn't the case. Yeah. Or or or when guys are like in the LE world, that's the exception and not the rule. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:46

Yeah, but that our lieutenant now, Lieutenant Taylor, he was there as a troop. He he left, got promoted, and is there as a sergeant, he's back as our lieutenant. So he's done it as a troop, sergeant, and now the lieutenant level. So it's so nice now having those guys in somewhat the last few years back-to-back command. Yeah, it's rare. And for us, that didn't happen. So I've been like you're just we're just waiting for it to go bad again because you've been so we've been so spoiled the last few years that it's it's nice.

SPEAKER_01 47:10

Yeah, it's hard too, because you get what I've noticed, you know, just like any the right, the right guy that becomes a SWAT officer that works hard and is working at it, he doesn't want to not be on the team. No, we don't promote very many people. And there's some guys you're like, hey man, like you've been here, I need you to go get promoted and leave and come back. Yeah, I need to fill these positions, right? And I think in terms of like a talent management, you know, that doesn't happen because also it's like I think people would look at that like, dude, I'm crushing it on SWAT. Like I want to stay here for 30 years and be a SWAT officer. I don't want to do this. Want to go, you know, from what I you go be a sergeant, you know, get promoted to sergeant, and then you go somewhere else, you're like, I'm not on the team anymore. How how is the team even functioning when I'm not here? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:58

You know, yeah. And that's that's that's one of our biggest downfalls for in the SWAT community because you're right. I don't I don't want to not do this fun shit. I don't, you know, I don't want to do this. I'm just as bad. I haven't done it. Yeah, I don't want to set set and watch y'all and do all that. That's not fun to me. So that that is that is that is a hard dust, is what he's saying. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, man, why do I want to, you know, I I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 48:25

Well, you need the right people to promote too. Yeah. Just because you're a good SWAT officer doesn't mean you're gonna make a good commander, too. So that's true, too. There's good there's good SWAT guys, they're not good instructors, you know, and vice versa. So it's it there it's a it's a right recipe, you know, to do it the right way. And I said with the couple guys that have done it with us, they've done it right. And I'm thankful for those guys because not everybody's suited, it's cut out to like I wouldn't want to work in HQ. Like I just I don't blend, you know, there. So I just don't want to do it. So I wouldn't I wouldn't want to go. But there's guys that can juggle it. They're better, they're more well-rounded than I am.

SPEAKER_01 48:56

I'll say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's you know, it's it's one of the things what when I was you know in the military, it's like living, living in an out station, living on a base, doing missions all the time, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_05 49:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:11

And then there was a there there comes a time where it's like you do it, you're about to do a rotation where you gotta go and now you gotta work in some headquarters or an embassy as a liaison. You're like, I don't want to do this. Like, I don't this is and the whole time you're thinking, just don't talk, don't say what you're thinking. Like, and that's always a good like say it once to yourself, find a trusted agent, say it to him, and they'll generally be like, don't say that. No, that's that's every day he told you, do not say that either. Yeah, no, yeah, no, once to yourself, come say it to me. Like, yeah, it's okay to say that.

SPEAKER_03 49:45

I was thinking the same thing. We showed up Thursday in Fort Worth. I'm like, say it to yourself and don't say anything out loud. Please, God, let's get through these next two days without doing anything crazy.

Why Patrol Shootings Are So Fast

SPEAKER_04 49:53

So Well, we're all 49-year-old angry men right now, so you know, we're all we're all about to hit 50. I think I'm the oldest one, right? Because I'm in June. So uh in the yard behind me. So I'm the I'm the old guy here of the 49-year-old club here. So some days I feel like I'm it's the miles, yeah. Yeah, some days I feel like I'm 89. I'm like, damn, dude. And stuff. So what do you see? You're you're heavily involved in in the in the police world, and and ask a lot of these guys the same question, and and and I think I'll get the same answer. But what are you seeing with these police shootings that you're like, man, if they'd only worked on this or they'd only done that, what do what do you I what do you what's what's kind of your thought process on that when you see some of these body cam videos?

SPEAKER_01 50:38

From the ones that I see, you know, they're all they're all consistent, they all have a common theme. Right? There's one thing that I that I would say 99% of all body cam patrol officer shootings that I see have in common is they're all fast.

SPEAKER_04 50:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

Right? They all unfold quickly, and the shooting takes place at at paces where I think for most officers, that's the first time they've ever shot at that pace. So what I where I you know it's hard to say, well, what if he did this that or did that? Like it's it's horrible to sit in armchair quarterback that stuff. But what I do say is like this is why these skills I believe are important. Yeah, right. This is why we're training because here's the outcome, right? Now is I remember I posted one where it was like a murder suspect carrying a kid with a you know, turns around, has a gun on, and the officer starts shooting.

SPEAKER_03 51:35

Was that the one with one hand?

SPEAKER_01 51:36

Yeah, and he's running away shooting, not with a classy bridge or something, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:40

That is crazy.

SPEAKER_01 51:41

And obviously, it's like everybody, you know, in the initial comments of that are like, well done, that's amazing, or whatever. It's like, wait a minute. Yeah, they do. You know, and I put that thing into an editor, and I'm like, So find out the backstory, like this is like you just approach the situation incorrectly. Like that guy already killed the wife or the mom, and now he has the like you are in an HR situation, you just don't know you are, yeah, right now. And then when he he whips around and pulls a pistol out, so you would think, you know, from that presentation, at a minimum, you should be at the same time.

SPEAKER_05 52:18

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 52:19

Like I would think murder suspect or whatever, you approach it with the gun out. So you know, gun out already ready, giving him commands, right? And then the blind fire shooting on low percentage shots, it's like you just hope and luck was your primary engagement strategy with that, and it worked out. You got away with it, but but when you look at it, like this is this is almost every bad situation all wrapped up into one incident that just happens to be filmed in very, very good video.

Winning With Honest Team Debriefs

SPEAKER_04 52:48

Yeah. And I think that's where like when you said that out of some thoughts came to my head. I'm like, okay, you're talking with this guy, you're you know, you're the chief of police of that department. Like, you don't want to just kick the guy in the dick. Hey, man, good for you that you were willing to fire the gun to shoot this guy, that you were brave enough to go after this guy. All those good things. Hey, good job. But here's some things that we need to learn because I don't think this is the best way to shoot at someone, especially holding hostage and stuff like that. And and then learn from that way. I think that's where we lose it as like you were saying, well, you're you're disrespecting my shooting or or this or that, or you're you're being a bre like, no man, we're we're seeing some things that are just not good. It just was good in this situation because of luck. And that is not hard way to make a living doing that. Yeah, we're not training that way. I mean, there you you can go watch an NFL game, and there's been teams that won because of a luck play, of a fumble, or or just crazy stuff. They didn't plan, they didn't practice that way. It just happened. Did they win? Yeah. Hey, did they win a Super Bowl? Yeah, or were they whatever they get? Yeah, they won. But I guarantee you when they go back and watch film, they're not going, hey man, next time we're gonna do the exact same thing. It's not gonna happen that way. And I think that's where cops in particular, we have our egos and we get butthurt because someone can, hey, what did you think about this? Or man, this is wasn't the best thing.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

That's one of the things I think that you know, teams and even you know, post shoot groups of officers need to do need to be better at is how they like hot wash things. Like I think you could probably even do, you know, an instruction on like, hey, this is how you debrief. Yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_04 54:38

This is how you Well, well, I think we're gonna do one of the we we talked about that on podcast doing a train up on debriefs and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 54:44

Yeah, like I think you know you you go through everything, but it's you're you can hotwash by exception, but what a lot of times what happens is it's a recount of and and I'm sure you've seen it, right? Some individuals will just recount all of the good shit that they did. Right? And hey, this went well. It's like, okay, let's talk about what could have been better.

SPEAKER_05 55:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:07

Right? Let's do that. Let's talk about what went wrong because it all didn't go right. No, you know, it almost never does. And then and then look at like, is this something that needs to change? Where was it a deficiency? Or like, hey, did we did we dodge it, literally dodge a bullet on this one? Yeah, right. We got lucky, we got away with it, but let's, you know, let's talk, have a quick discussion about this can't be the norm. We need to get back on track with this is how we do business. Yeah. And then when you walk out of there, it's it's fine in debriefs, right? To argue, to fight, to have that. It's like, hey, we're done, cool. It's all out now, it's all on the table. We're we're a team again. We walk outside the door and we're united again.

SPEAKER_05 55:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:46

Right. And it and don't carry that, you know. It's a I say I would say it for years, you know, disciplining my kids, where it's like, this happened, right? The punishment was carried out, like it's over.

SPEAKER_05 55:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:59

Right. I don't now the big thing now is how do we move forward from this? How are we gonna learn from this? Like, what are we gonna do better so that we're not back here in the kitchen with the spoon again?

SPEAKER_04 56:11

I think for two, for like when we got into law enforcement and we were on SWAT, man, we didn't have body cameras. So all those debriefs were things that you had to remember or someone else saw. Now, when you have a debrief and you're watching everybody's body camera, man, there's there's absolutely no hiding anything, like, because you see everything. And so I think that is even a better tool to even use to go, hey man, like we're watching this video, and and you if you don't call yourself out and you're not bringing up your own shortcomings on this, because there's no perfect run. I've never seen a perfect run. I mean, there's always something that we could have done differently, or or this change, or shit. We always we'd have known this, we'd have done, we'd have planned this differently because we had no idea, or whatever the case may be. But uh, I think that's that's a big failure for us in law enforcement a lot of times.

SPEAKER_01 56:58

One of the things I've seen, you know, in in units I've been in the right guys, you know, and it it's it's not a debriefs start big, right? Lots of people in the room, debrief all the players, then it strips away. Right now we're the air elements and everything are out. Let's just the guys that were on the target on the ground.

SPEAKER_02 57:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:18

Debrief that, right? The intel side, and then those guys leave. Right. And it gets down to where now this is just the operational element, right? The troop or the team that that went into the building, and then the the leadership for that. And that's where that's the time in my mind where I've seen when when it's the right guys that are doing it, right? They're racing to stand up, hey man, this is what happened. Like shit that we'd be on big targets where I didn't even realize there was like a major incident, and one guys own it, and like this is what it did, or whatever. And and almost to a man, you know, that guy is like, you know, I completely think, you know, if I need to step away or whatever, if it's so grave and you're like, no, it's a mistake, and you owned it. We we make mistakes, the pace that we're training, the pace that we're doing this, right? And there's no covering up, it's all open up there, and and it's the right dudes. You don't really need to beat that dead horse. He's gonna do it all himself. Yeah, he's gonna hold himself really, really accountable for that and be pissed off, and it's gonna affect him. And then as as good teammates, our job is to now bring him back to zero, right? Reset, like, hey, it's over, stop living. Yeah, I know. I just shut the fuck up, man. Like we're past it, you're past it. Now we got to go forward. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:37

And and and it's hard because I all of us are, you know, we mess up and you're like, damn it, man, I knew better than do that. And and and and it is a hard thing to to reset, but you you're right. Like, we had Matt come out a couple weeks ago, uh, it was my practice. So I was like, hey man, I want you to come out, evaluate us. Because I hate, you know, when it's your practice, you're like, well, shit, I'm setting everything up. I don't get to run with the guys. And I think it's good to have outside people come in and and and evaluate that. And that that was one of those things, too. I like the like what you said, Matt. It's like, hey man, what I'm doing being the instructor, it's easy. You're doing the hard part because you're the ones that are doing this and doing that. I know what I set up, I know what I'm looking for and everything. Like, you don't know, you have no idea when you come in there. But I think that's a good thing. And and and it it is good to to have outside people come in and evaluate you to give a perspective that maybe you don't have, or to give you some things that go, hey, what about this? And then as a team, go, hey, yeah, you know what? This is where we need to work on. This is where we did pretty good, this is where we didn't do very well, this is where, hey, you know what, guys, there's all skill set levels here. Hey, we know where we need to work with some of these guys with some of these guys have it, some of them don't, and they need to be trained up to it. So I I think that's another part of just as a team evaluating things like that, you know. That that that's important. So I do appreciate that because you did it in a really good way, man. Like, hey, I don't I have no emotional attachment because this is not my team. And I think that's a good way to look at it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:03

Well, Don, I appreciate it, and I appreciate you know y'all asking me to do it. Again, it's not hard to set up runs. I mean, that that's easy, you know, it to be able to bring up, you know, certain things and all that. But the good part about it was is that you know, and I knew vast majority of you guys I know pretty well. Yeah. So I can say, hey, Brandon, what about this, that? And everybody just just talk, like, hey, it's a very matter-of fact. And it it goes to your level of professionalism as a team to have somebody come in that's willing, you know, or that you're willing to let come in and see you uh potentially at your worst. Like you're gonna be you're gonna get exposed. And believe me, if you set up runs for Dallas Watt, 10 runs, there's gonna be one of them where we're like, man, that was a total bomb. Like we should all just be kicked out of here. That's how bad that run was. Or whatever. But that's fine because and I think you know, ask Matt about this. When you have confidence in what you're doing, you've put in the effort, you've trained, and you not to sound pompous, but they're like, look, I know I worked hard to try to really do this. I think we're capable of doing this. We can we can absorb that hit, hear what you have to say, take it in, conceptualize it. And I think good teams can do that almost on the fly. Like, we can do that, and you can go over and set up another run real quick. Like, okay, we screw that up, Brandon. Don't ever F and do that again. Don't do this, do that. You know, that's a piece of sh, you know, whatever. Like, okay, copy that. Just re-rack this thing, score in there and get it done. Okay, good job, everybody. You know, that was that that's what that's what it's supposed to look like. And then you don't rest on that one either. Here comes the next run. Here comes the next run. And I see what people uh have to do is that they've turned into what maybe I was saying, you know, we have a bad run. Well, then they they chilled up. Like I don't want to, I don't want anybody to impert, you know, and penetrate my my suit of armor because we messed up. Well, if you if you haven't messed up, I tell people, then you haven't run enough ops. Because you will, because I'm here to tell you, I run my share of them, and I still like, man, I was a little too far left on that, or a little more right, or I was slow, or I was a little ahead. Or how did I not see that? And when you have a large team and a lot of a lot of experienced guys, there's very little that doesn't get noticed. You know, guys pick up on stuff and you're just almost waiting for somebody to come around and go, that's on me. You know, like, yeah, I saw that, you know, whatever. And you're just but like your point, hey, you owned it and all that, because don't think we but at the same time, I've done it. That's how I know you're doing it wrong, because I've done it wrong. That makes sense.

Training Conditions That Allow Mistakes

SPEAKER_01 1:02:19

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I also think how you, you know, how you set conditions for training are really important, especially when when we're talking about, you know, tactics training, right? Like to me, I don't I think there's there needs to be times where we're almost welcoming failure because we're we're we are training hard, we're training realistically, right? It can't, if it's always zero sum, you know, we we're not willing to accept defects, then the outcome is gonna be skewed, right? Like you said, when the guy shields up, like I just don't want to see anyone make me a mistake. So he's gonna be hesitant, he's gonna be, you know, you'll see him guys position themselves in the house where they are not gonna be the ones making decisions up front or or pushing the fight. So it's like, look, like I was always under it. If I want mistakes to happen in the house, right? I want to see them. I want you, I want you to make a mistake and see it. That's the only way that people learn. That's why we're out here training.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:21

Now, when we're there as a team, it's like, yep, make mistakes, own them. Now, if you keep making the same mistake over and over, we've got to have a discussion about that. But in terms of the pace we're training, how we're pushing it, what we're trying to develop in terms of all of this hard skills on you know, introduced into a TTP, then think mistakes are gonna happen. But we make those mistakes in the house so we don't make them on real objectives. Then when you get the troop together and it's more than one team, like, all right, guys, like now we're now we're demonstrating in our little bit bigger group that we that we can you know perform this at a very high level. We're building confidence in us. More importantly, we're building trust and confidence with the other teams that when we're coming into our side, they know we're not gonna fuck up and we're gonna do our piece of this. Yeah, right? Mistakes will still happen, but then it's team internal, you know, teams taking care of themselves. Then you come together with three other troops. Now we're doing something in terms of like a capability or a readiness exercise. That is when it's like now we're showing the commanders what this force can actually do at speed, no fail, zero defect, right? And we that's where we don't want to see the same mistakes, or we're not we're not necessarily willing to have those things be okay. But you paved that road earlier by making those mistakes.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:44

By making them I think that's where people they don't see the end game. Like you will you will you will do this before I was watching a video is you know, Mike Trout, he's a he's a great baseball player, plays for the Angels. He's a generational talent, and he was out there and he was telling the D M B, he goes, put it right here. I'm having trouble hitting this ball. And he was having those his pitchers like throw the ball at a certain dist you know, a certain spot because he wanted to work on it. Like you know, he's like he's considered one of the best of all time, or the uh of this generation. And yet there he is out working on that little thing because he knew, and that that's that's why he's great. That's why great. Obviously, he has talent. He's in the major leagues, he's there, he has ability that most of us don't possess, but yet there he is out there going even that much further, you know, and that's the reason why he's one of the best.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:30

And that's you see that where guys training, you know, on their own, right? And I I see it with a lot of different officers. The departments aren't gonna get you there, your team's not gonna get you there. Right. You can't rely on just when that training set up. And I'm sure even as a full time team, right? You're the first thing that's gonna get cut is training. Absolutely. Right? Because operational stuff takes priority. You know, you're not gonna if you if you have a if you have a thing like, hey, we're gonna either cut out training or we're gonna cut out this administrative requirement. Training's gone. Yep, yep. Because we got to make the machine run and all of that. So you rely heavily on, you know, just like guys, you know, maintaining their physical readiness and their physical shape, you rely heavily on that guys are doing at least some amount of work, whatever that looks like, whether it's hard skill work, I think even three or four guys talking, sitting around, you know, drinking a beer and then conceptualizing and discussing and debriefing stuff. Or or now what if in, hey, this is what I do. This is this is my piece of this assault. This is what I saw.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:34

Yeah. My crew had you for two days. You're not gonna make elite warriors in two days, right? You're you're you're you're trying to give us data points and things to you know and you know, objectives to work on. Like, hey, it's but yet if if we never revisit what you told us, are we gonna be any better? We had you for those two days. No. A year from now you come back, we don't do any of them. It was it was just a waste of time and ammo, right? But that that's just like anything. Whether it be a debrief or a hot wash on some training, like with when I was doing with those guys, or doing training, we're like you take that, we're all running little notes, and we had you know, had a little stinno paddle back of bacon notes down. And what was funny is some guys wrote down some almost the exact same thing, like, oh, what you had said, we wrote that down as something to go back and revisit later. And that I think that's what you know, what I can uh consider professionals. You're going to do that. You're gonna take that in and we're gonna sit down next week. You already talked about it, we're gonna sit down next week, we're gonna have a good hour or two talking about the la last week with you, and how do we take those things, good, bad, and indifferent, advance that going forward, because that that's what you're supposed to do. No, no class you ever go into will will make you a master of anything.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:42

No, and I think there's also the you know, from what I've the competitive guys that that we would bring in that have the ability to shoot with, you know, and that's e I mean, we would have five days with a guy where you're shooting individuals shooting 7,000 rounds in five days. Like it's a lot of shooting, you know, to ramp it up. But even then, like no one is getting appreciably better during that training. You're you're working on things and concepts that now you're able to take with your team or with yourself and try to implement those in your own training and figure out how what works, how do you mold it to fit you know your need. But I I I I believe that firmly, like no one gets appreciably better in a two or three-day course. No, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:28

Well, there's been things that I've heard since I first started my shooting journey of that I'm just now catching or understanding. Like, well, I've heard that, but I heard it from this person's perspective because they worked on it and they got to the level where they the light bulb came on for them. So they were able to tell me about this in this training, but I didn't understand it like I do now. Man, I I see that a lot just within within my training of, oh man, that light bulb finally came on. Okay, so now I gotta work on this next light bulb to come on. There's there's always these light bulb moments that that you continue to have uh with that.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:10

And I I think we a big takeaway that for courses, at least the way that I do course, is I want guys to it's like you're pushing them over a cliff, right? They're just they're gonna start rolling and rolling and rolling, they're gonna pick up speed. Yeah, but at some point you're setting conditions where exploration, like self-exploration of what you're doing is how you train. Right? It's I can tell you the words, this is what I have, what I did, this is what I found worked for me, right? And and those are, I would say, like that's a value level of one. Yeah, right. Understanding like this was how I trained, right? That's way more valuable. Right? It doesn't matter, we're all gonna hold the gun differently, we're all gonna have different ideas about that. You try to bring that stuff out in terms of exploration. I think you know, me and Ben both call it we do awareness exercises, right? This you're not gonna ever train this again. Yeah, right. You may take it and go visit it, but this is an exercise we do to show you, you know, have you understand your connection to the rifle and how how you should change it or if you should change it.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:19

Right. Because I think that's one of the those awareness drills that we've been doing is the biggest thing I see, the benefit is that guys are doing and they and then they're like, I didn't even realize I was doing that.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:32

Or with the rifle, it's like almost across the board, like everyone's like, I'm holding the gun too fucking tight. Like I am just muscling this thing around and I don't need to.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:42

Right. And then you tie that into you know the vision discussions about what we're doing and where you're looking, visual control, visual discipline, and all of that stuff. And it but it keeps going back to like this awareness thing. Like, are you aware of what's happening and when it's happening?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:57

And that's the that's the real important thing that I think in a course that you can cue cue people into is when the mistake happens, they felt it. Yeah. And now you keep making that mistake, but now you at least you felt it, you know how to fix it.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:12

Yeah. Well, I think I I called you up the other day and we were talking, and you're like, hey man, next time you do this, just when the red is hit hits the brown, just just go. Try to get in the four second range and go fast, and you'll start figuring it out. And I'm like, okay, I remember that. And sure enough, man, I did it the last time I was training. I'm like, holy shit, man. And then I was able to, quote, slow it down to shoot my vision, and I was like, damn, man, that was fast. That was wow. I I had no, but I then I started understanding the whole time sequence. It was just plain playing in the background, but I understood it. I felt it and I knew it. And I was like, okay, that's what I texted. I was like, man, maybe you know what you're doing, man, after all. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:01

I'll tell you, that's the that's like the it's the simplest thing. Like everybody stresses about the 40-yard line at CQB warm-up. Yeah. And it's like, you want to not stress about it, force yourself to shoot it in four seconds. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:14

Like it's it's completely doable, right? I demo it all the time. Yeah. It's like, but that becomes okay, you know you can move it. The work on training is can you get acceptable hits? Can you shoot 50% alphas? Right. I'll take two Charlie, two Charlie, drop to the prone, two alpha, two alpha, all day long in four seconds. Yeah. Hit factor wise, it works out great. And then when you shoot it under the part time, six seconds is like you'll be able to shoot that thing, and then you checked your mag, your gun's slung, and you're relaxing when you hear the second beep go off. Yeah. Like it's just it's that it's the whole premise. Like, you want to get really good at driving 150 miles an hour, drive 200. Yeah. You just got to force set conditions in your own training where it's okay for it to not be perfect, and it's it's for the sake of exploration, and you're pushing it, you should be uncomfortable, I think.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:03

Yeah. Did you have something you want? I think there's a segue and something I was going to bring. Uh no, go ahead, man. Well, you're talking about the 150, 200 miles an hour, and this we and I were talking about this going back to like the the shootings, like you know, uh you were talking about the data points and all that. And and I get asked that a lot, like, well, what was the like was it daytime, was it nighttime, was it all these they're looking for all these little you know, nuances or factors that come into play. And I'm like, we run them from early morning to late night and everything in between, like the vast majority of them are during the daytime, just because that's just the way the world works, but we've done it at all times. And what happens is is that they're looking for like you said, well, if if you can do it f fast at 6 30 at night when it's getting dark, you know, in the in the in the winter time, or you can do it at 10 a.m., should it really matter? It's kind of like no. It it I guess what I'm trying to say is that when you s when you hear people ask, well, the the par times, or you know, how you how that relates to being a being able to do an entry and doing an operation, like if you're training at a certain speed or an acceptable level, like it all just kind of turns into to gray, right? Like you're just you're all that stuff works itself, I guess it works itself out because you're doing all these things right, all that superfluo stuff just kind of fades away, I guess. Does that make sense most like you, man? Wow. I looked that up right before I came over. Brain on Matt. Well, it took me like over an hour to get it in. Yeah. But does that make you know? It does.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:35

And it's it's the it's the train, you know, the training, experience it in training, right? And you're at a very high level and you're able to perform, right? And it's you've developed that skill. And then when you apply, introduce that into any technique or TTP or your actual like application or your job, it just runs in the background. Right. You just you're not having to think about it.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:58

All these apps are running the background. And I think that's because people are looking for that that that golden key to unlock everything that makes the operation. And it's like it's not if it was, it is somebody would have already made it and sold out. Like it would have happened.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:12

Everybody wants the the fucking ozembic of training, right? Like, what can I try to do? I like going to the gym, but I I'm not gonna eat right, right? And I you you see it all the time. It's like I want to be, I want to shoot fast and be good at all these tactics. It's like, okay, it's you got to go to the range and work on it, right? It's the shooting part is the diet, the working out is, you know, or the going to the gym, that's the tactic side of it. But it's what you do when you're not doing that that feeds into it. Yeah, and I don't I don't think there there is no easy button, and there's also there's no secret anything. No.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:53

It's the day-to-day grind, right? That's what it is. And you know, we have a lot a lot of people reach out about to us or the command about dynamic and running warrants and the the rate of success. And it's like, do you think that just happened? Like one day we went in there and just picked it up with the quartermaster and said, Hey, this is how we're gonna do things. Like, that was going on when I got there. It was going on when the guys that were the senior guys when I got there, they were doing that for a long time. Like that, it it is baked in all those years of the range and the shoot house and you know, and debriefs and running ops. All that is baked in. Like, you cannot pick it up on Instagram or a three-day class. And people look for that. And Brandon and I have had these discussions, the guys will come to the classes. They're like, Matt, how do I get my our team to be able to run this? I was like, you should not be running this. You know, not for I think I thought you and I talked about this in the training. You you're a 12-month out, you know, at the minimum. Like, if you decided today and had approval, do this. But they don't want that. It's it's it's like, well, I want and like, look, I I I appreciate the enthusiasm, but you have to be realistic. Even if you were switched on, ready to go, and you could do it, does not mean everybody else is. But they hate on you when you say that because you're like, well, I'm like you asked, I'm trying to help you, I'm telling you, because if you do this and you go out and screw it up, you will never get it back. You'll you'll and you'll ruin it for everybody.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:10

You won't. Yeah. You want you want to build, you want to build a 10,000 square foot house, but you want to build it on sand. Put the money, put the time, put the you gotta build the foundation, right? That cement's gotta cure. It's gotta be hard before you start, before you put the first board up on it. Yeah, and people don't see that, right? Because that is not one, it's not the answer. Like, from a training industry perspective, like that doesn't hard work does not sell. Like, what's your product? Like, hey, you you guys need to work your ass off on this.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:44

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:44

That's that's how you're gonna get better. No, no, no, no. I want you to tell me how to get better. Yeah, yeah. You gotta work. Yeah, it's gonna take a lot of effort, right? And it's gonna take resources to do, and it's gonna take you know, your own time and your your own effort are the two biggest resources. Then you're gonna have to find a little bit of ammo somewhere to shoot to kind of test all this stuff. Yeah, but I've seen I've seen guys evolve, you know, over the last couple years, you know, one guy specifically that I talk with all the time, and he is working his ass off. And he did it, he was having a hard time joining a club, couldn't even find a range to shoot in Pennsylvania. And I'm still watching his video after video, and he'd send them to me, and I would like, hey, think about this, think about this. And then he's he's taking his concealment stuff and he's applying it to boxing. He's like, you know, high-level, got some boxing, high-level boxing training. So he already has hands, he already understands about training and isolation, he already understands about suffering, right? And he applies all that to this gun stuff. Before he shot his first live round at his club, right? He already had a year of skin, and people are like, How the hell did you get so good? And it's like, work, right? That was it. There was no secret, right? And you you watch his first video and watch a video now, and it's like he's doing the same thing, he's just he's executing it where it's technically near perfect at very, very high aggression and performance levels. Like, but he did that by by consistent, constant work, right? And he dove into it and he he kind of submitted to hey, this is the process, right? I'm not outcome focused, I'm process focused, and now I have to be excited about the process. And none of that as a as a product for a training company or training industry sells well, you know, it's like no, I need I need to know the science words for why I'm not doing well, right? I need to learn that to go to do it better, and I and what I've learned is at the at the highest level, like when we're training, we are not having scientific discussions about how to get better. No. At least, you know, I never have in my career, and we continue, we don't have it, you know. It's like we work on things, we work at we deal in concepts and deal in principles, and and then grind on those things. It's not like it's not it's not a natural ability, right? I've I had for years, I said, well, you just you can naturally pull the trigger faster. It's like, well, you notice how when you come into work at seven o'clock, I've I'm already here every single day because I'm doing a lot of shit that you don't see. Yeah, that you yeah, right, that I'm doing it in isolation by myself. It's it's my thing that I'm doing, right? And then you're seeing the result of it, and you're telling me that this is a natural skill.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:40

Yeah.

Process Over Hacks In Skill Building

SPEAKER_01 1:20:40

No, this is this is 10 hours a week of consistent work that I'm trying to crush, and and that's what it takes. Yeah. You know, but and and and to be honest with you, like the reality of the situation is that like police officers or people who carry guns for a living do not need to possess really high level of skill to solve their problems with that tool, right? Either operation or whatever. I think you know, if if the average it like if the if the average cop shooter could be a B class shooter, right, in terms of you have to have some sort of classification on it in people know USPSA, a B class shooter, they would all look like rock stars.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:24

Yeah. It would be a game changer.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:27

It would be, right? And it's and it's very easy to achieve, you know, for civilians with with very, very little work. Yeah. Right? But they have to have they have to be one, they have to have the desire to want to improve, right? It's just like getting into shape. If you don't want to get in shape, no, no amount of world-class programming and you know supplements will make will make it work.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:50

Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:51

Yeah, there's not you know, you can't take your sormelin pill and be on TRT and and all of that shit, and then you're just somehow gonna get jacked. Yeah, it's at some point you need to start working, right? And then you have to work super hard at it, right? You have to be uncomfortable for most of the time that that you're doing it. And and shooting's no different. It's guys know this, like SWAT guys know this from physical training.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:16

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:16

But they don't apply the same metric to shooting. And and to me, that's always been that's always been odd. Like when you try to draw the like, why don't you treat it the same way? I I think it just it goes to tactics too.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:29

And we did this another discussion, is that it's like they want it to be prescribed to them. Nope, yeah, I was supposed to go here because the last run, Matt, you don't need to go here. Well, that was fine because the suspect was here or the hostages there. And then when you change it on them, and then when you critique them or say, hey, there's probably a better way of doing this, they get, you know, because they do want the easy button. They want, you know, something to it is like, I'm sorry, you will not you will not get any better if you're looking for a preconceived flight path on how to solve the problem inside this house. It will not happen. Yep, that's what they want, and that's what you're seeing this training. Not to, here's another segue, this is what you're seeing, some of these training groups and these guys getting out of the mill or whatever, that they're they're just they're imprinting these flight paths on these guys, like just do this every time, and it'll work out for you. And like, it will not work out and you I can show you the room that that will not work. Yeah, and they're like, oh no, no. I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:23

I think it's it I call it Rolodex training. Yeah, right? It's like, well, this is how I handle this situation. They write that down, they put in the Rolodex. And then they're and then they're like, oh, well, what if this? Oh, you do that. This is the answer for that. This is the answer for that. So you don't understand the concept of what we're trying to do inside this room. You don't understand the the the tactic that we're using, right? And where the outcome needs to be because there's a lot of different, you know, I get it, efficiency, the the shortest path between two points is a straight line. Right. But there's a lot of different ways to get to those two points based off variables that present themselves, but you have to understand like what the what are we, you know, conceptualize, like what are we trying to do, right? How do we dominate this room? How do we win this fight? Yeah, and and that's the real understanding of it that you can't give someone the answer to.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:15

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:16

It goes into like it's it's reps, it's time under tension, it's seeing many, many situations, right? And just there's no one answer. Like, I I would say for for most situations that I've seen in CQB, there's not just one answer.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:31

There's there's several different forms of that because you you watch like a team run and they run the quote the same tactic, and three teams can do the same scenario three different ways, and they're all they all can be right. The way they ran. Well, one guy he did this, and that so that way this guy did this, or this guy did this, and it worked out because they were well, they were within their TTP of doing it. But no one was sitting there saying, Hey man, you've got to do it this way every single time. You know, or e even planning things. We uh we were talking earlier last week on the phone, and and you were saying you're working with some guys, and you're like, hey, we started out working, we wanted to do perfect like schoolhouse CQB. And then we bumped it up to now we're doing this and we're running faster, but we're working on there was a method to the madness, and and it's it's the same kind of thing. Like when you do CQB on a live hit, it's not gonna be picture perfect, it's not gonna be perfect.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:26

No, it's not, and there there's there's too many variables in there. But when we like like I focus on the training side of it, and that's where it's like I can I can talk to you about how to be technically perfect, yeah, and why we're hard on, you know, exactly where your point is, you know, exactly the distance, how much off the wall, how these sectors of fires look. And then when we're running, you know, you know, with that team, we were doing dry ones, and I'm harping on like I know, I know you think it doesn't matter to be one foot over to the left, but that's not technically perfect. There's no stress now, there's no shoe, there's nothing. So I need to see technical perfection. I need to see everyone understands where you're coming up in this room, that's how the fields of fire interlock, it's why this becomes as safe as it can be, and it's how it's why this is a team event and not just one guy going in there because we're all supporting each other, but it relies heavily that everyone is doing their piece, right? And and the first step I think is you have to be technically perfect. Like you there's there's no disputing that. And then once you're technically perfect, now we can start to add aggression in it, right? We we can start to add variables in there because I know you can execute it technically perfect, so now I need to see it, you do it at speed. Um and then the conversations like with the whole dynamic thing, a lot of people are have a misunderstanding that dynamic CQB is running, yeah, or has it really anything to do with how fast the individual is moving? Yeah, and I believe it's how fast everyone is going from tas to task to task with no delay.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:12

Yeah, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:12

The efficiency that's the dynamic piece of it. You know, it's is I'll you you demo you do any training, like I'll go to do CQB training, and it's it always starts with a discussion, right? What do you want to get out of this? Right? If they're like, well, we want to learn points of dime, you got to call someone else. Right? There's you you're I'm not the dude to do an overhaul of your tactic. How I like to train you know, CQB with teams is what what what do you use, right? You'd be surprised how many teams you come into that don't know how to articulate what they're doing.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:46

Oh, yeah, no, we've seen it. And then what what they tell you is not even what they are actually doing. Yes. Because it's a it's a catchphrase, right? It's out there. How many times we talked about that? And Brandon I'll be sitting back and looking like what they said they run strong wall or point, whatever they whatever they want to use. They don't like that's not even close to that. No. It's some kind of you know bastardized hybrid version of it that somebody that that somebody that copied it and cut and paste, and I'm like, you know, and then y'all ask different teams or this or different guys in the same team, and they'll give me totally different answers. I'm like, well, there's no way you're gonna win successfully over the long haul because you and Brandon are speaking two different languages on the same team. Yeah, on the same team.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:24

Yeah, and it's that makes sense. Yeah. It I I always get put up where they're like, Do you know how to do this? Like, I know how to do all the CQB. Like, that's it by definition for me, that's what being an expert at something is. Yeah. Right? You don't think it's not, you know, organizations I've worked at are we didn't do, you know, limb pen as what's taught, but you don't think we didn't look at it?

SPEAKER_05 1:28:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:49

And try, like, guys can't execute it. Holly aware of what it is. Yeah, yeah. It's like strongwall, we 100% can do that at speed with any doorway procedure you want, and it can teach you back what it is. Like, that is what having a PhD in this shit really is for 30 years, you know? It's like you're not gonna bring something to me where it's like, no, I've never even heard of that. Yeah, yeah, right. But what what happens is is guys will see a real flash picture of something, right? Step center is one that's that is very, very like the explanation of what that is is it's a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy, right? And they're like, Well, this is what so-and-so unit does. I don't think so. I don't think you have the understanding. And also, how you're explaining this is wrong. That's not what what you're what you're saying and what you're doing are two different things, and also what you're doing is not what came out of range 37 10 years ago, which they even understood this shit was confusing as hell. We're not gonna teach this anymore, right? And they removed it from from from what they teach. And it's it's that thing. It's a copy of a copy of a copy, and then the guys that are promoting this and that are the loudest about it are the ones with the least experience. Yeah, you know, and it's it's not it's not mill dudes doing it. Yeah, right. It's coming from like former law enforcement guys, you know, and there's you know, for whatever there's I always look at like, hey, you are now running a training company, you were a cop for five or six years, right? You're on SWAT team for a couple years, and now you're running a training company, like there's a story there.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:35

Yeah, you you always that's always a big red flag. I'm like, so yeah, you're on the SWAT team for two or three years, and now you retired. Quote, you're I'm like, man, there is more to that story, and more times than not, there are. Like, you got kicked off the team, you left the department because you're gonna get fired. Some other crazy bullshit like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:53

It's also like I don't I honestly don't give a shit about people's backgrounds, and I don't think people should care about mine, right? It's I think what what what I'm the most is what can you actually do? Right? If you're if you're gonna do you're doing shit shooting and training content, or this is what you're doing, but what I see is low skill level. Yeah. Like at what point, you know, why can't what you're selling be like a demonstration of how well you've trained yourself?

SPEAKER_05 1:31:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:25

Like that's right. That I think that's the best marketing thing. It's not a video, it's like this is my system and this is what I can do. Right? Yeah, and and it's and there's all different levels to the shit.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:37

Right for sure. Well, going back to we're talking about kind of schoolhouse perfect CQB, when you set up a f a couple of runs for us, and uh one of the runs, one of my new guys went to the left, and he should have he should have taken that door, but he stopped short of it. And then another guy did it, and both of them were were newer guys, and then I watched a couple other runs, same run, and it was our senior guys, and they took care of the door, shot the uh the uh bad guy, and stuff. But it goes back to when we were talking about these new guys, they were wanting to run perfect CQB and a hostage rescue environment training scenario. I'm like, that's we're not doing that. The guy's like, we're not doing that. Like this is totally different now. We're we you should know the rules, and now we're getting outside of these rules because man, we're having to do this. But it was funny watching that and then talking with the guys, and that was one of the things like, hey, Matt, what was one of the big takeaways? He's like, hey man, you know, some of these guys are just sticking with this is what I was told to do, and like so now we're having to discuss this with these new guys, like, hey, this is when we're giving you the permission to let's go. Don't wait on us. Like this is this has to do that.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:48

Well, they want black and white, this is nothing against you, especially the new guy. Hey, I was a new guy, I screwed plenty of stuff up, and they're like, You're an idiot. What are you doing? You know, and I have people moving me around like I've done it. Yep. But at the same time, that's the reason why I know that's wrong because I've been on the I've been that guy. And I think that to your point, Matt, that's where that's where the experience comes from. You know, like you you know people don't care about what's your background, but like we we one one of the one of the things we talked we we wrote up about the HR training is is like, look, you know, there are a lot of people out there that are promoting that they can teach you to hostage rescue or go over stuff with you. Be careful about where you spend your money and who you bring in, because I I not to name names, but I was I was asked to go to observe a class. A guy was brought in who's a meal guy, just not to pick on meal guys, but anyway, he was just putting this thing out. And like within two hours, everybody in that class was like, This is the worst class I've ever been to. And the guy put himself off as at really knowing a lot of this stuff. And what happened was is people would ask him just legitimate questions, like, hey, how does this compare to this? What's your thoughts on this? And he would just go like, well, just that's just dumb, just don't do that. Like, yeah, people will not take that answer very long. Right, yeah, and uh and if they're and if they're have any inkling of what they're talking about, they should you you probably have an idea of like how that how does that dovetail into what I'm talking about here or like here, because you've seen, like you said, I can run any CQB you want. The reason why I don't run that is because I know it's not good or I know it has limited applications or whatever. That's the reason, not that you don't know how to do it, and I think that's they don't they don't differentiate between those two. Yeah, you know what I mean? And I said, and so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:21

Yeah, I think too, there's a you know, it's I can I can make a video, I can sit here on a pot, and uh I can be whatever I want to be. It's the internet. Yeah, you know what I'm like I am an expert at this. Yeah. And then now when you're you're standing with actual bona fide gun professionals that do it for a living, yeah, right, it's like you better have like all your ducks in a row, right? You better have the experience that you're promoting that you have, because again, like the questions were like the the first two days we're working, there are guys that you know Joe was asking, he was asking phenomenal questions about stuff because of things that he wanted to talk about, things that I probably never would have talked about in the course, you know, and it's training ideas and concepts, and it's the same, you know. You you you better be able to speak to it, you better be up, but you I speak to that stuff about my first hand, first person experience in my own training journey and what I've done. So it's like when I'm if I miss dismiss something where it's like, no, that's stupid, yeah. Okay, I'm gonna say that, but I'm going to explain it as to why this is, for instance, why this has happened. This is my first hand actual experience with this, and these were the pitfalls, and these were the outcomes, and that's why I don't think it's good.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:48

Right. And a lot of guys, I don't think they can do that on the the training side of it.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:53

Yeah, absolutely. Well well, going back to them, you dig you to your point, you had a couple guys, the newer guys didn't snap on that, you know, that doorway, and that when we had some issues. And then the next couple runs, the guys, same run, different crew, didn't have any idea there's all organic to them. They all did it just right. And so it was the same team, different guys doing different things. So it's not like you go, because if you just took a flash picture of the first two runs, like, well, these guys are screwed up, they don't have any idea what they're doing, they're they're shit, they're all this. Yeah, but then you watch the next two runs, the guys did it exactly what they're supposed to do. So it it is not a a team you know failing, it is at the in on an individual level, this guy was unaware of what that scenario is. And that's where I think that a lot of teams don't come in and go, hey, you here's the reason why ABC 123, and because I think was it Dever was the first one that came in and got it, or was it Sean? Sean. I think Sean. Yeah, Sean. Sean the first one came in and he did that, and I'm like, here's the reason why it worked here. Yep, y'all haven't y'all came in the same room, same scenario, nothing changed. Here's where it here's where it went wrong for y'all and went right for him, and did this. And it was almost everybody like, oh, it was just you know, like that light went off. But the guys that can't cross-reference those, yeah, yeah, you know, and that's what I think a lot of guys are getting because they're hungry for attend they're not hunching, they're hungry for it for for for help. They're getting it, but it's not the right kind of help, and then they get they're left unfulfilled, and so they're reaching out and it's like eating Chinese food. You just can't get enough, yeah. You're hungry 20 minutes later. You're like, damn. I'm going to use that in the next class. I'm going to steal that one. So that's pretty good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:32

But and you and you're real big too, Matt, when with CQB, that hey, the the shooting should already be there. I believe you're real big on that. And accountability and shooting and and and paper targets. Hey, we need to be accountable for the shit. It's five yards away. Come on.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:49

Yeah, it's it's gotta run. Guys, that that needs to be like on autopilot for for officers, for guys that are that have that as a as a requirement for their profession. Like, you need to realize like this this fight is gonna be fast as shit.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:04

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:05

It's gonna, it's it's measured in fractions of a second.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:08

You know, and you've and then in terms of delivery, think of the rifle, the confined space, everyone's around. You have to be absolutely perfect with where these rounds go.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:19

Right? You can't you can't be clearing towards teams or drywall walls and send an errant shot or even send a shot through not the you know, the thickest part of the of the target where you want, right? You gotta make them go where you want them to go. Because as we all know, just like bullets going through glass, bullets hit anything, they do weird things. Yeah, they do. They go in arms and they come out 90 degrees and go into the opposing corner. It's why we, you know, there's so much effort put into the at probably the rounds that you shoot, what you're taking into the house in terms of the right penetration, and this is gonna get us the effects, and then that level or you know, commitment to developing skill and understanding and trust that you have, where now I can have an officer standing here, an officer standing, you know, in the opposing corner with a suspect sort of in the middle. And I know that they're gonna get it done.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:15

Right. And it's that's why I think it's like we you look at that, that'd be like the absolute worst case of something, you know. In reality, I think that problem gets solved much, much sooner than that. But that's the absolute worst case, which is why you see it with newer guys, you know, they're they go in, they're they're they're thinking about where they're supposed to stand, they're thinking about the technique, the procedural things that they have to do, and then all of that's running. Now they're stressing out to take this four-foot shot on the move on a photographic target with a Sims rifle. It's like we got to go back, like we're we're cart before the horse a little bit.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:55

You know, we gotta go back to the range, we got to do things on the range to get you comfortable operating at a really high level. And then most importantly, what I'm a big believer in, I've got to tie in what happens on the range with what I want to happen in the house. Right. If those two things are disconnected in terms of speed, performance, accuracy, right? I'm not doing the best thing for training. And then, and then the only real discussion is like, well, what's the best thing? I mean, that's you get as creative as you want, you know. I tell everybody, like, I believe in daylight, you know, CQB training distances are 20, 30, and 40 meters, yards, whatever. Yeah. Yeah, I what they say, we we shoot in yards, but we brag in meters. I'll remember that thing. But but those are my mind, that's where I'm stressing foundational skills where I'm shooting three yards, five yards, or five, seven, and ten-yard pace at 20 and 30 and 40. And because now I'm actually stressing fundamentals, it's gonna look different. The training is gonna be harder, but I'm trying to tie cause and effect together, build awareness on on what I'm doing at very high levels of speed. Yeah, so when I come up to five, you know, we all know shooting a rifle at five yards, I really don't have to do anything well.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:16

You know, I don't have to have a good connection. I don't the it's the bullets aren't really gonna go much outside of the scorable zone.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:23

But if you go back to 20 and now you shoot that, shoot that five yard pace at 20 in terms of doubles or bills drill or triples or any type of engagement sequence, now you start to see I better, I gotta do everything right.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:38

Right? I've got to have the vision under control. I've got to be disciplined. I have to have the right connection. Yeah, I have to let the gun do its thing. I need to not influence it unduly with you know applying pressure while I'm in the shoot. Like all of those things.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:53

Or do the cool Instagram, I'm coming in and you know, button hooking hooking left and got my gun off my shoulder and do that at 40 yards and to me, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:04

That's the guy that, right? You're you're in a bar, you're pushing, you guys sign the social contract, we're gonna go out and fight. Yeah. Right? The guy that comes in with the gun over his shoulder is the guy that goes out into the parking lot and pushes me. We're past this, bud. Yeah. Like, yeah, we please do that. Right? You've created a scene now that I will exploit and just feed you my will for the next 30 or 40 seconds. Like, and that's the thing. Like, if I'm if you go, you're you're entering that room, right? I'm always entering a room, rounding a corner, anything where I think I'm chasing somebody, I expect that guy is going to be standing on the other side. Yeah, yeah. You right? So be ready for it. And and just and then just backwards plan it. Like, what's the best way to be ready? Right, and I get it, guys will say, Well, you know, you could shoot at this distance like that. Yeah, can you discriminate at that distance that at that speed? Right? The the gun is collapsed. There's there's no other place where we do that, and I and I have yet to see anybody on the range taking shots with the gun over their shoulder. No, it it it to practice it. And I know for me, like like shooting a pistol from the hip, and it's not for for for sake of not ever trying this extensively, but I am horrible at it. Right? I cannot hit some dudes can just dunce plate racks like Terren Butler from the hip. I'm like, nope. Yeah, not me. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:30

Well, I would just say in the training that we do and have a lot of guys coming in from out of town wanting to treat, you know, would it be the TTPOA, advanced squad, whatever, or our HR. I'm always amazed, and I lead off of this, like how okay, you've been on the team year, two years. How often have you done a car bean class or a hostage rescue class or an intro? And almost almost none of them ever do, you know, or never have. And they're just like, well, I they haven't sent me to it. And so, like, okay, how long have you been on SWAT? I've been there for a year. Okay, what class did you go through? What have you been through? What training? I went through basic SWAT, and because I'm a gas guy, I went through a 40-millimeter gas lethal three-day school. Okay. And so in a year's time, what have you gone through? Basic SWAT and then a 40 millimeter three-day gas left lethal school. Check the boxes. Check the box. But yeah, you work for department A, but department B had the basic SWAT school, so you went through with them and you did their CQB or whatever it is, you know, whatever the training is, and yet you go back and integrate with your guys. And they're like, I have never been through a week, because in fact for us, we have a three-day car bean class just for SWAT guys, and they come over after they're selected. And they're like, Well, no, I went through patrol rifle on the department. Like, we don't have a car being, we don't have any kind of performance or advanced, I hate to use the word advanced, but you know what I mean, something other than the basic. And they're like, no. And so then you have guys, I've been there uh we had a guy from a department, he had been on the SWAT team for 18 years. That was his first documented hostage rescue training he's ever been to in 18 years. I believe it. Yeah, you and it's and you see in every time we do this, I'm like, why am I still surprised by this? But the last class we did, other than the uh the guys that applied with us that were wanting to go through it because they want to get selected, get a chance to be seen by us, everybody, 100% of the out of town guys had never been through an HR school, and yet some of them have been on their team seven, eight years. And it's the same guys that never go seek out the cut your butt, but the butt the training, they're not seeking anything out, and so they're just man, they're just so far behind the curve.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:29

I see it with with with tons of cops where they're you know, SWAT, not you know, patrol, it's it's like, hey, what are you what are you doing to get better with your pistol? What are you doing to get better with your rifle? Yeah, and if that sentence starts with we well, we shoot. Or they they have a shoot that you're wrong. Yeah, what are you doing? Yeah, right. You're like, hey, I'm trying to drive fire two times a week. Good. That's a good start.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:55

Right? One time a week. One time for ten minutes.

unknown 1:45:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:58

You know what I mean? Just get up, do ten minutes of not something, right? Or do it while you're watching TV. Right. That will be if you're a patrol guy, like right, level three holster, just index learn to index from the draw. Yeah, that's yeah, right. That's the critical skill that you that you need, right? You learn to get that gun out, you know, in as close to a second and a half from a level three holster as you can, with the dot or sights arriving at what you're looking at lined up.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:29

Right. Or dot in the center of the window. If you do that, you are light years ahead of where you are not doing that for the engagement that you will have.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:38

Right. When it presents itself, that is going to be a piece of it, right? So learn that one skill.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:44

Yeah. Well, I think now with the technology the way it is, and all these body cameras getting out so fast, it's probably always been there. It's just we haven't had uh the influx of uh information videos that we have now. But there's every week it seems like there's an HR patrol situation that someone is shooting, someone that's a hostage, and it's patrol base that's doing it. It's not uh SWAT teams that are doing it. I mean, so it this is not just for SWAT, it's for anybody who's carried a gun, especially working the streets. Man, you don't know what what when test days come and you have no idea. And I'm seeing this. I mean, that they had the one the other day that just came out. Guy had iron sights. Oh, the the woman holding the woman a hell yeah knife. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, one shot dropped a guy, did what he's supposed to do. It was a chick. Yeah, it was a woman, oh yeah, that was a female. Woman holding a woman, yeah, that's right. Yeah, it's up and that guy. I mean, I don't know what his skill set is and and all that. But I I wish I knew more about that. That would be interesting to see what these guys that are doing, that are doing the good shoots, and then ones that are spraying and praying.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:51

I mean, if you if you watch that guy in that situation and his his demeanor, right, his confidence, the way that he's moving, the way he's holding the gun, how he's prioritizing what he should be doing, right? He's not on the radio, you know, not on the fucking radio.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:08

Not on the radio, gosh.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:09

All of that stuff, you know, would leave to believe like that dude is doing some training on his own. Yeah. Whether, you know, hard skills-wise, I don't know what it looks like, you know, because it's it's it's it's one shot, yeah. But the ability with confidence to deliver there, with composure, right? That's a guy that we we talked about this, you know, in the class. If you're overdeveloped hard skills, in my opinion, like when you look at application, equals confidence. Confidence equals guys being patient to let the situation evolve or devolve to a point where they're absolutely right because they know that anything that happens, they can handle it. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And there's there's there's no there's no downside to it.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:57

Well, our guy uh from Washington State, what's his name though? Chris Mutt. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you watch his video where he shot that guy from 80-something yards, cool comp, sets his coffee cup up, gets at, gets in the back, gets his rifle out, bam, shoots, and and that was 168 yards.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:14

Is that what 100?

SPEAKER_04 1:49:15

Oh, damn.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:15

168 yards. I've seen that video. Unmagnified shot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:19

So he came to Matt's class right before that. That's how I met him. Yep. And then he's come to other classes. Then he started bringing guys down from the to the conference and training here.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:28

From Tacoma.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:28

And then you look at his training pedigree, he's trained with a lot of guys and he put work in. It's like it wasn't just by accident, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:36

No, he yeah, it's he's yeah, he's good, he's well practiced, he's he's into it, he's he's putting forth a significant amount of effort on his own, you know, in terms of time, right? I get it. I I believe like the departments are resourcing it, but I even think in one of them he either won or or we he was comp to slack. Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:00

Uh-huh. And then his department was still gonna pay. Yeah. So he was like, give that to another guy. Yeah, he did. Like, I'm still coming, you know. And it's like it's just it's all the right thing, right? Good dude and what dudes are doing.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:14

Yeah, I hooked him up with stuff, and I'm like, dude, that's that's the right attitude to have. And and that's that that that's the guys that, like you said, that's the guys that are that are changing law enforcement in the in the better. You know, I I I have a passion. You know, I think this podcast, for to me, the way I look at it, it's not just shooting the shit. Yes, that's part of it. But there is to me, this is a training tool. It's a valuable tool for guys to understand that maybe have never heard any of this stuff. Okay, let me let me let me go down my own journey and stuff. I I think it's important. That's why TTOA is so important to me because we're we're pushing guys to challenge themselves. And if you don't want to jump on the train, hey man, someone else is sorry, man. Maybe you'll come around the next time the train comes back to your station. Maybe you will, maybe you won't. That ain't my issue. I'm giving you what I'm what I feel like I should be giving you as a as a member of this of this association.

SPEAKER_03 1:51:06

Well, uh, you know, we we can bad rap guys, but there are a lot of good dudes out there really trying to. We had three guys from Anchorage, Alaska come to the HR class because they wanted to come down and hear what it was all about. That's a that's a long haul from there to here. And to do it, you know, and then we had a guy free from Minneapolis, had the two guys from uh Canada come down when I did the deal in San Antonio for James. Yeah, they can't because they wanted they couldn't get into class because they couldn't ever get signed up, so they came down there all the way to San Antonio just to hear what we had to say. I mean, that's effort. Yeah. You know, that's not the department didn't make them do that. You know, they got approval for it, but those guys wanted to come down, they hit me up, they go, hey, can we come down and go to your aid? I'm like, dude, you absolutely can come down to our class whenever you're ready. They go, and the problem was the department wouldn't let them sign up until they got approval. Well, by the time that class is already full. Yeah. So we like we we just kind of held on to two spots for them on the side and got them into a class we did down in San Antonio. They came all the way from wherever it was in uh in uh Canada, all the way to San Antonio to hang out with us for the for the week and do some training. It was great, and they're really good dudes, and they're they you can tell they have been trained and had a higher level, but they were seeking out other opinions and stuff like that. And that's what makes it worthwhile right there to see guys that want to come in and not that they're trying to hear what you have to say, but they're just they're trying to develop those better skills. You know, that was really cool, you know. And I say now and all that. But uh I was like, what's the weather like up there? They're like, it's cold. It was February. I was like, I cannot imagine being up there, like it's really cold back. We're down in San Antonio, it was like in the 50s, and they were like, This is perfect. I'm like, yeah, it was good.

Conference Plans And Training War Stories

SPEAKER_04 1:52:32

So yeah, no, it's it, it's yeah. No. Conference next year. I think you already committed to it, right? We talked about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:41

Yeah, yes. The yeah, the dates you sent me. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so this one I'll be able to come to.

SPEAKER_04 1:52:47

Yeah, we'll be out there. I'm I'm excited for that. We got some things that we were we were talking about doing and stuff, so I'm excited. I think some we haven't we haven't announced it yet, but Matt kind of knows what we were talking about earlier as far as what the instructor's gonna be able to do. So I think it's gonna be exciting.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:02

Yeah, I think it's I'm excited for it. Yeah. I gotta figure out what you want me to teach. Do you want I I was thinking of like a a tactical doorway kinesthetic kata class, you know, just it'll be like one day, 12 hours. Yes. All talking. Yeah. In kit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:26

In kit's the you know, just by hour, just see me people just falling out. Just, you know, we'll have Adam there, or Chris rather, uh videoing the whole thing. Yeah. No. Well, when we were at the conference when I was doing my class, the I saw the ambulance pull up, and I was like, oh my god, what happened? That was the staccato class, the guy that, you know, that yeah, like Lieutenant Dan walked in and goes, It's none of us. It's not TTBOA guy. Yeah, it's like, thank God. You know, and uh when the they had uh that injury in one of the ranges, and we saw the ambulance, and you know, when you're on the live fire, you're gonna see the ambulance pulling in with the lights, you're like, oh my gosh, what happened? And I walked down and talked to Lieutenant Dan, and he's like, Nope, you're good. It's it's it's it's none of us. Y'all just carry on, just be careful. Like, they good.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:05

So it's you never know what you're gonna get on the T T BO. The one the one year I came, we were out there teaching. Yeah. Then all of a sudden, half the damn cops left. You're like, whatever. Like, there's an active shooter like three miles away. And then one guy comes back, he's like, I can't take the course anymore. I'm on like the lead. Like, what happened? Well, I'd shot that dude.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:27

Well, two years ago, he was here with us, he and Ben, we had to leave go do an HR, missed half the day of training, and then the second day this this this year we we were late getting there because of stuff. So it cut it happens, you know, it comes up, you know, it's just what it is. So but uh that's funny. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:42

I mean, that's the it's the the good and the bad part, right? About it's always the gamble. I mean, even if would have completely fallen apart, like you guys are out all all day, like we still I still would have trained the Irving guys and the Fort Worth guys, and then there's open days here would be like how about this day, like at the end of the trip, we'll just do you know, it's it's never gonna like cancel training because of real work. If anything, we're just gonna shoot on the range and wait till you come back and then be like, what happened? Yeah. Let me know. Yeah. Can I can I get a uniform? Yeah, right, right. I know.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:20

But we could have used another body or two, you know. We're always well well, we've had br we've you know, we've had ops where we've used Garland. We've used Irving, because even Dallas, we run out of people. And we had a deal a couple years ago. Long story short, they're bringing a lot of dope in this barn, they're putting it out there under IR at night, and we didn't have enough people. So we had to brand and drove the APC for them and came in there and we came in there under nods, you know, did a soft breathe. That was a fun job. It was and but then they turned in and had to go clear this big building. But like, like almost every piece of equipment and skill that you needed was on that one op. Yeah. You had APC, you had air, we had uh aerial platform guys that don't be an overwatch on us with that. We had guys coming in, you know, through the back, you know, 40 of the whole property, sneaking in, using cover of foliage. That's not usually what Dallas PD does, but we're having to do that. And we used every almost every piece of kit and gear and tactic and utilization of everything on one op, you know, and we still ended up having to have Garland come out and do that. And it was a really good deal. But like you just never know that we actually waited tonight to do that. Like, hey, we can do this at night, and it was just like, you know, having the confidence and miability to do that and having guys that you can trust to bring in, it was a really good deal. And uh that was that was that was a good deal. That was that was a good idea.

SPEAKER_04 1:56:33

And especially you think in Dallas, you're like, well, where would place like I was thinking, where the fuck are we going? Yeah, southeast of it. Yeah, sure. I was like, I had no idea. The city limits too, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:42

I was like, I had no idea this city. It was the very bottom corner that still is not really built up back that way. But yeah, that was a good deal.

Texas Size Toll Roads And Wrap-Up

SPEAKER_01 1:56:49

So Dallas is the city, like the first the last year when I came driving around, I was like putting an address or something, and like it's like, oh, you'll arrive in an hour and 50 minutes. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no. I'm going still in Dallas. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's an hour and 50 minutes. Yeah. Good luck. Yeah, yeah. It's gonna cost you eight bucks. Yeah, it's only 15 miles.

SPEAKER_03 1:57:13

Why is it taking so much? Yeah, the day he goes, What is that with all y'all's toll roads? I was like, We pay for everything, you know. It's uh I've leaving downtown Dallas. Coming here has been over two hours many times. Yeah, you know, it's not that far of a drive, but it is, it's the it is it's crazy. It's just gotten worse.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:28

You know, the toll stuff is like you have to pay to go pick someone up from the airport. I'm like, no, no, no, I'm not parking.

SPEAKER_04 1:57:34

We don't care. I know. I don't know any other airport that does that, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:37

I really don't. Well, I I think the total that's it's awesome. Everyone's like, come to Texas, no state taxes. Yeah, yeah, there's other shit. Yeah, there's a lot of other shit.

SPEAKER_03 1:57:45

We're gonna get ours, yeah. For sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:57:48

For sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:48

Yeah. So two years ago in the August, I came here, right? We were here for 30, 35 days. Yeah, y'all were here for a long time in Denver. And man, when I got home with the total added up, I had like$310 worth of tolls.

SPEAKER_03 1:58:03

I lost money on that trip.

SPEAKER_01 1:58:04

I never went through one toll booth. And then, you know, believe it or not, the the system that you have to re it's not very intuitive on how to register for. Imagine that. Or even how to pay the tolls. Yeah. And then I'm like, then it's then the late fees come. You're like, well, can I pay it on nope? Get online. And you get online, like, I don't think this is the site.

SPEAKER_03 1:58:26

No, they had the algorithm made just right where you get it. Yeah, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:30

If you live in Dallas and you don't have a toll tag, man, I don't know how people do it. You gotta have a toll tag. Yeah. No, it's uh so well, Matt, you got anything else, man, before we wrap this up? No, no, this was great. Well, I appreciate you what you do for for law enforcement and the passion that you have, and and you and you give a shit, and you're always dude. I can't imagine how busy you are offline. I know you know we've talked about that, just how many people hit you up. So keep it up, man. I I I do appreciate the friend you've been to us and and to me in our community and always pushing us to be better. So I appreciate that, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:04

I really do. It's my pleasure. You know, it's an honor to come here, and I love shooting with you guys, and TTPOA classes are easy. Yeah. Right. It's uh you guys handle everything, right? It's like show up, yeah, and then I like driving out here. It's always been good guys. I think the for me it's you know, I kind of get in line with people based off like the culture of training that they do, right? As somebody who's interested in training, and you see it in you see it in Texas, I see it a lot in Arizona, you know, parts of California where guys are really into you know working, doing the work and getting better. So I to me it's uh it's an honor to come here and be able to you know try to contribute to that in whatever way I can. Well, I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_04 1:59:49

Like you said, when I I I had an owner out here, we were eating Mexican food one day, and I was like, hey man, I've been trying to get prank out here. He goes, Really? You want him? Called you up, hey man, and all of a sudden I'm talking to you on the phone again, and and and so man, it it's been a good friendship since then I so I I appreciate it, man. So my pleasure. Look forward to look forward to more stuff.

SPEAKER_01 2:00:09

I gotta figure out Texas so damn big, like I have to get down south. Yeah. I wanted to get down to Houston right now, but I know Corpus Christi.

SPEAKER_04 2:00:18

Yeah, it's like Yeah, that's a hell eight-hour drive, seven-hour drive.

SPEAKER_03 2:00:22

You will see driving, go down to Houston, yeah. You'll find yeah. Oh, yeah. I've been yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:00:26

I think you ought to go to El Paso too. Drive to El Paso from here, man. That'll be a fun drive.

SPEAKER_03 2:00:32

That is a hike. That's like what day ten hours or something like that. Yeah, it is all day.

SPEAKER_01 2:00:36

You're still in the state. That's the state. That's like I thought, you know, I was oh, Corpus Christi and Houston, it's in the same area.

SPEAKER_05 2:00:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:00:44

The guy's like, hey, are you coming down to Corpus Christi? I'm like, I think I'm coming to Houston. He's like, Yeah, but are you coming down to Corpus Christi? And I had to get like the maps out. I'm like, no. Can you guys come up to Dallas? Yeah. Yeah. That's a long way. Yeah. It's so big, you know.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:58

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:00:59

It is. But I mean, what anytime I run basic SWAT, advanced SWAT, or the HR school, man, they'll have guys from all over those, all over those border towns.

SPEAKER_03 2:01:06

Oh, we get a ton of them, border town corpus, that whole thing. They love it up here. They do. Every time we have a ton of those guys. But anyway. But no, Matt, thank you for your service for everything you've done. And I appreciate you know being available to us and everything. Enjoy having you up. So thank you very much. My pleasure.

Final Thanks And Train Hard

SPEAKER_04 2:01:21

All right, boys and girls. This is going to cut we're going to cut this off here and stay tuned for our next podcast, and y'all go train hard.