Embark on an emotional journey with my brother Matthew, whose childhood in Cambodia's Killing Fields led to sanctuary in a Thai refugee camp. Inspired by a movie about Jesus, his story of hope and faith resonates with our Buddhist family's transformation. We explore the pitfalls of legalism, the power of grace, and celebrate the profound impact of encountering God's unyielding grace. This narrative of redemption offers hope and invites listeners to join us in embracing faith and salvation.
*This description was generated by AI.
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0:00 - Stories of Transformation and Freedom
13:06 - Witnessed Through Kindness and Personal Growth
22:14 - Discovering a New Level of Faith
28:23 - Twisted Beliefs and Harmful Behavior
39:51 - Transformative Power of Faith and Grace
51:08 - Struggling With Legalism and Jealousy
1:00:09 - Meaning of Sin and Being Dead
1:08:47 - Impacts of Faith and Church Community
1:20:47 - Growth and Transformation Through the Gospel
1:32:01 - Freedom Through Christ's Righteousness and Grace
1:41:21 - Salvation and the Power of Gospel
Embark on an emotional journey with my brother Matthew, whose childhood in Cambodia's Killing Fields led to sanctuary in a Thai refugee camp. Inspired by a movie about Jesus, his story of hope and faith resonates with our Buddhist family's transformation. We explore the pitfalls of legalism, the power of grace, and celebrate the profound impact of encountering God's unyielding grace. This narrative of redemption offers hope and invites listeners to join us in embracing faith and salvation.
*This description was generated by AI.
💰 DONATE & SUPPORT our Ministry: lovereality.org/give
👍 LIKE us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/alovereality
📷 FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/riyoung31/
📚 LEARN more at our site: lovereality.org
0:00 - Stories of Transformation and Freedom
13:06 - Witnessed Through Kindness and Personal Growth
22:14 - Discovering a New Level of Faith
28:23 - Twisted Beliefs and Harmful Behavior
39:51 - Transformative Power of Faith and Grace
51:08 - Struggling With Legalism and Jealousy
1:00:09 - Meaning of Sin and Being Dead
1:08:47 - Impacts of Faith and Church Community
1:20:47 - Growth and Transformation Through the Gospel
1:32:01 - Freedom Through Christ's Righteousness and Grace
1:41:21 - Salvation and the Power of Gospel
The world doesn't think that the gospel can change your life, but we know that it can and that's why we want you to hear these stories, stories of transformation, stories of freedom, people getting free from sin and healed from sin because of Jesus. This is death to life.
Speaker 2:I see Pauline walking from the back of the church. She's in like some workout clothes or whatever. Looks like she just gotten back from the gym or whatever and she sits down and she listens, right. So after the service concludes, I will go up to her and I approach her and I start to berate her for being late to the service. I told her about how it's important that we take our commitment seriously, how this is an important revival. We need to respect the time, respect the preacher's time. This is God's time. And as I'm going, she starts to tear up and she starts to cry, right there in front of me. And at that moment, when she starts to cry, instead of feeling compassion for her, I felt this. I finally reached her, I got through to her.
Speaker 1:Yo, welcome to the death to life podcast. My name is Richard Young, I will be your host and today's episode is with my brother, matthew, and I met Matthew this last summer in Pasadena, california, where I stayed at his house. And man, this guy is generous, he's smart and he has a story to tell. And his story, similar to many of our stories, involves a background where we didn't quite understand the truth. And then the truth in, comes in and it sets us free. And warning, there is some legalism in here. I just want to say that ahead of time, watch out, watch out. But then there's also some gospel in here, so watch out for that. But this is Matthew, my brother. I'm going to be watching the Super Bowl with him in a week and a half. This is my guy. Listen to this story and be blessed, buckle up, strap in Love y'all, appreciate y'all. So, matthew, dr, matthew Chan, where does the story start, man, when it comes to spiritual things in your life, where would you pinpoint the beginning of all this? The?
Speaker 2:beginning, huh. So I suppose, if we were to start at the beginning, it should start with the people, I guess, through whom that God brought me into this world, which is my parents. I was born in a refugee camp in Thailand, actually, and the reason why my family ended up in a refugee camp in Thailand was because they were trying to escape Cambodia because of the political unrest that was going on in that country in the late 70s, and that deserves a whole other conversation in itself. But anyway, so I was there, I was born in this refugee camp. What, do you know, have your parents described?
Speaker 1:this situation. I don't know if all refugee camps are the same or if there's some nicer than others. Yeah, yeah, that's a good question.
Speaker 2:Actually, I'll just briefly tell you a story. My father was tortured in ways that he hasn't even been in. He hasn't even told us about to this day. So I don't know all the details of that story other than that my mom at one point didn't even recognize him. He had come back from being tortured in a concentration camp and he had been gone for months and she had almost given up all hope. And so towards her walks this gaunt figure looking emaciated and really, really just awful, and this guy tries to hug her and she runs away not realizing that it was actually her husband who had just come back from a concentration camp after being tortured for months with his peers, most of whom did not survive. So this is the environment, that into which I was born, or out of which I was born, I should say, because by the time they left Cambodia things were getting a little bit better and they ended up in this refugee camp in Thailand. And the refugee camp was actually set up and run by two entities, the Roman Catholic Church and the Red Cross, the US Red Cross. So if you ask my parents what was it like there, they would tell you that it was heaven compared to what it was like in the killing fields of Cambodia. So actually my brother, he's old enough to remember that those were quote unquote, the good times being in that refugee camp. So I was born in that, I was born from some really bad times into a refugee camp. That sounds bad in itself, but compared to where they were before it was like Disneyland, right, wow yeah.
Speaker 1:Were they spiritual people?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So that actually brings me to the next part of the story, which is how my family was introduced to God in an interesting way in the refugee camp which was run by the Catholic Church. And actually, surprisingly, I just found, I recently found out that one of my physician colleagues, a good friend, she's a little bit older than me but she actually was serving in that very refugee camp during the time that I was born. Oh, wow. She's a Seventh Day Adventist physician, wow. And so we're trying to put two and two together to see if any of our families paths crossed during that time. But I just think it's amazing that God was there during the very nascent stages of my life in a way that I look back on and say, wow, he was always there. So in this environment, during this time where my family was waiting to be sponsored into America, we were waiting in the refugee camp, and then my brother he's run around the place playing he catches a glimpse of a television and that was like oh wow, a television, right, but what they were playing caught his attention and that was a movie about Jesus. Hmm. He had no idea who Jesus was. My family was Buddhist. He was what was the other time he was probably nine, eight or nine years old. But that movie about Jesus, for some reason it captivated him. He was my oldest brother, he's 10 years older than me. It captivated him and it put a seed in his heart. It put a seed in his heart that God later watered and really caused the conversion of the rest of my family, including my parents. So it was in that little refugee camp where God put a seed in the heart of my oldest brother in this environment to kind of bring us to a knowledge of who God is. There was no conversion experience or further knowledge of God beyond that little clip of a movie that he saw, other than to say that he experienced some visuals and audio of a guy who preached and taught and healed and eventually died on the cross. So this concept of a God coming down to save lost humanity, that was introduced to him through movie, but then it stayed dormant for a long time. It was dormant. So finally, after I was born, about 11 months later, we were finally sponsored by some extended family that were already in America to come to America and we landed in Long Beach, california, right here in Southern California, the LBC, the LBC, that's right. Yes, as a matter of fact, I grew up in what perhaps some may call in the modern vernacular, the hood. Have you ever been there? I've driven by.
Speaker 1:I don't like to stop. Actually, that's where I grew up. I grew up in East Side.
Speaker 2:Long Beach not the safest part of town Gunshots quite frequently throughout the night. I think there was some drive-by shootings not too far from where we lived. So that's where we grew up, in a home that we rented and then eventually my parents bought a home on the other side, around the block, and that's where it all started for me in America. And it's interesting because I went to public school during this time and I remember my dad, mom and dad. They were working. They were just trying to survive in America. My father was actually a dentist in Cambodia, but your dental license in Cambodia means nothing in America, right? So he had to get by with cutting grass and fixing swimming pools and cleaning homes. My mom did the same. My mom worked in some sweatshops. So they were super busy, working hard, trying to make ends meet, and at the same time they were trying to get an education as well. They both went to Long Beach Community College. They got their associates of art degree and then they ended up working for LA County for a number of years and recently retired. So that's kind of the environment that I grew up in. And I remember when I was very young, in first grade, going to this public school. My parents said oh, you're in first grade, now you could walk yourself to school and walk home. Mind you, I'm six years old.
Speaker 1:In Long Beach, in Long Beach. It's not like Kansas.
Speaker 2:Okay, not at all, not at all. So I remember one day I was walking home from school and this kid comes up to me and just literally says I don't like you, you're ugly, and I'm like okay. So, and I'm walking by myself and he just cold cocks me in the face, just punches me right in the nose. Oh, wow. And my nose starts bleeding. I'm like, oh, what was that? And then he runs away and this other kid and his mom saw that I was walking home alone with blood coming out of my face, so they took me in and they gave me some paper to wipe my face off, walk me the rest of the home. And my mom asked me what happened. I said, oh, some kid punched me in the face. So, okay, go get cleaned up and it's time for dinner. Rough times, rough times, but good times In the hand house. Yeah, yeah, it was awesome. But I had some amazing parents. I still have amazing parents, praise God. My dad just turned 80 and the gift they gave me was number one, they stayed married through some really rough times. And number two, they were kind of your typical Asian parents but at the same time they weren't. You know, they never really checked my report card, but they did have this expectation that we were supposed to do well in school. So excelling academically was kind of implicit in the Chan household, but it wasn't like they were helicopter parents by any means. So you know, I'm very grateful for kind of the upbringing that I had. So it was good. That's beautiful, that's beautiful.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, so yeah. When does your idea of God start to form?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it starts to form quite early because eventually a Seventh-day Adventist family heard about all these refugees coming from Cambodia and she decides to take us all in and she was just. You know, the story of Cambodian refugees being displaced out of their country because of political reasons kind of touched her heart and she decided to grab a bunch of us, a bunch of families, and just sort of adopt us, if you will. And they helped us to form a Cambodian church group because she wanted to introduce God to us. And it was great because she really got close to my parents, or my parents got close to her. She employed my mom and dad and she taught me and my brothers everything about American culture. She talked to us about God, she took us to Disneyland and it was just like, wow, america is awesome, god is awesome, church is fun, we have gym night, we have Christmas programs, we have fun Sabbath schools, and so she took us in and just introduced us into not just the American way of life but really what Christianity was all about. And she did it with such kindness, with such grace, it was beautiful and it was an amazing thing and to this day my brother will look back and say you know, and God bless him. God bless him. They're both resting in Christ right now. But this couple that took us in, my brother would say that they witnessed to us not with doctrine or theology. They witnessed to us through kindness. I mean just pure kindness, love, generosity, without a thought to themselves. They just took us in stinky, dirty refugee Cambodian family. They just took us in and treated us as if we were their own. So it was beautiful. So that was our introduction into a Christian worldview and it was great. It was really beautiful. How beautiful is that?
Speaker 1:What are their names?
Speaker 2:Robert and Judith Heider. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Praise the Lord for the Heiders man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, praise God for the Heiders. You know I was just having a conversation with their daughter recently about the impact that their family had on our family and their daughter is a physician inspired both me and my brother to go into medicine and their daughter, who's still a practicing physician out in Loma Linda her husband recently passed away and we were there and we were just reminiscing about how it was not for her parents None of who you see right now would be possible. Right. You know, it was just amazing. They put a seed in our hearts that God watered and to this day continues to grow. But I would say that perhaps the most impactful or transformational thing that she did for me personally was that Judith Heider sponsored me to go to a seventh-day Adventist school from fourth grade to eighth grade, so she took care of my tuition where she helped at least, and so that was really really cool too, because I came from this, you know, really rough public school and I transitioned into this private school and, even more so, I was immersed into Christianity, adventism. I learned a lot about, you know, the various doctrines that I kind of imbibed and, you know, applied in my own life, and so it was good and there was just a joy that we all started to experience because of this new thing, being in this new country and knowing God on this level. So it was really, it was really cool, that's beautiful man, yeah, so you keep growing.
Speaker 1:Who was God to you? Who was God to you as you were growing up? Yeah, high school years, who's God?
Speaker 2:That's a good question. So as I went into high school, I was a pretty tame kid, you know, and didn't really get into any trouble. But coming out of a very small Adventist school, going into a public high school now you know, there was no public high, private high school within reasonable distance for our family or anything that my parents could afford. And by then I think I had already made up in my mind what I wanted to do as far as a career was, and I wanted to accomplish certain things with, you know, getting into a certain college and so forth. So I really wanted to go to a school that would kind of really prepare me for that. So we ended up going. I ended up going to a large public school nearby our home. We had moved from Long Beach to Cerritos by then and I didn't really get into any trouble, but I was really struggling with my identity, just like most adolescents probably do. At that stage. Obviously I don't really know who I was and I think, since you asked the question, it was probably because, although I knew about God, I didn't know God on a personal level, right. So freshman year was super awkward, right. I had no idea what was going on. I survived, I think, by the skin of my teeth. Sophomore came around. I decided you know well, why don't I try to become a break dancer? You know, remember housing. Oh, I want to be a house.
Speaker 1:So I do remember that you weren't popping locking, you were housing. Is that what it was?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, you know, and that I failed miserably at that. It just that just really was not something that I could identify with by any stretch of anybody's imagination. I tried sports for a little bit. Really, I was too short to be on the basketball team and I wasn't good at no sight. I joined the tennis team. I made JV. That was pretty cool. So, but eventually I just decided to go back to my comfort zone in high school, which was basically academics and just getting ready for college. But then during, I want to say maybe, the beginning of my junior year going to, yeah, the beginning of my junior year 1997, two things happened that I think, brought me to an encounter with God, or at least two things happened that changed my life forever. That would change my life forever. So I was at church and I was in Sabbath school and the person leading out in the class, who still is a good friend of mine, his name is Tony, and this brother was a former gang member, a former drug addict, he was part of Playboy, gangster, pbg, whatever it was. But he had an amazing story of his own and he was just so involved with the youth and I was one of the youth in his class and he was teaching Sabbath school that day and he was teaching about the investigative judgment and I don't think I understood anything he was saying that day, but all of a sudden I just kind of grabbed onto certain things that he was saying about judgment was given in favor to the saints and things like we don't have to be afraid of the judgment and things like. Jesus stands in our place and Jesus is also our advocate. He's also the judge himself, so the whole system is in our favor. All these and I didn't really quite understand it. I just knew that there was a judgment going on and that I don't really have anything to worry about, but I didn't have any peace about it per se. It still wasn't really clicking in my mind. I went home that night terrified, nonetheless just terrified. I was like whoa, I didn't understand anything during staff school. There's something about a judgment. I don't really know what it means that Jesus sits in my place. I don't really know what it means that that judgment is really given in my favor. All I know is that I haven't really been taking my relationship with God very seriously and it's time to get serious. So I started to take God very seriously and I was excited about it. I was very excited about this new chapter that I was opening up in my life. I was 17 years old and I started to have this really rock solid devotional life. I started studying our Sabbath school lesson. I even started to lead out more in church and doing things like. I even started to teach some classes myself as a young teenager and I was genuinely super excited about the Bible and I wasn't Anymore interested in trying to be cool, you know, at school it was just I kind of started to develop an identity and I shaped that identity around Around being a Christian right and it was awesome. I remember just feeling very light and happy being this carefree young kid that kind of had a foundation in Christ. And I didn't quite If you were to ask me at that moment, like how do you know? What does that mean? I don't know if I would have been able to articulate it in a way that that made any real tangible sense, but I just I just felt it. It was awesome, it was good and I guess, looking back, I can say that was my first love, right there, you know. So that was the first thing that started to change my life. Was I start to take the Bible? I started to say God a lot more seriously. The second thing that happened was short after that I guess you could say conversion experience. I, I met a girl, and, and, and I'm gonna change your life that will change your life yeah. Yeah. I met a girl that never really had like a relationship prior to her. Maybe she's like a couple things, a couple flings Before her, but nothing serious.
Speaker 1:And so I met this girl and by flings you mean not like how the world says a fling, like you may have, you know, held a girl's hand once.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, well, I guess you can. I had a girlfriend for about a month, right, I mean right, we did more than hold hands, but nothing, nothing, nothing worth mentioning beyond, you know. And I had another and the other relationship last maybe two weeks right, I mean what in high school, that this I don't know how to you, I didn't know how to manage relationships back then, but, but this girl was, was different. Because I think she was different because, number one, I started to become different myself and I was looking for something different and she was the girl that I knew as as a, as a young teenager. I knew I was gonna be with the rest of my life and I don't know how I knew that. I don't know what made me think that way. She, she felt the same way and we both fell hard and we both fell fast and it was awesome. I loved it. Yeah, it was great. It was like an incredible feeling, right, and and that was sort of like my claim to fame in school. By then I was able to leverage something that could give me some social capital of school. Right, I was dating a college girl. So I was a senior in high school, she was a, she was a freshman in college. So and it was cool because you know she integrated well with all my friends at church because we all kind of knew each other from from other church activities. We had a lot of fun. So I was dating this college girl and you know, 26 years later I still feel like I'm dating that same college. Let's go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she is, she Cambodian as well, totally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah so, but that makes my kids totally American.
Speaker 1:So so those two things happen right as you're kind of going into to college.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, going to college.
Speaker 1:Was God happy with you at this point in your life? Um like in your mind. We know yeah.
Speaker 2:So in my 17, 18 year old mind, I don't think I ever asked the question whether God was happy with me. I can tell you I was very happy with God and I I never recalled feeling any guilt, condemnation or shame per se, even though my brothers try to Inflict a little bit that on me because, you know, they were trying to raise me and I and I had certain moments of rebellion, you know, staying out too late with my friends or whatever, but I was never really vexed with any of the major struggles that perhaps some of my peers were like. I remember organizing a camping trip With some of my senior classmates and we were at camping and the last night, I mean, they were just totally getting wasted, getting high, and I just had no problem not partaking in any of that. It was just not my thing. It was just I, like I said, I just was this tame little kid that just Floated through life and here I was enjoying this newfound relationship with God and with Tina. So so, yeah, so, as far as whether I thought God was happy with me, um, that's a good question, I think. I think I can tell you the answer now, you know, because whatever God says about his son, christ. He says about me and he told Jesus that he is well pleased with him. So, yes, I do believe God is very much content with me, and I can tell you my 17 year old self, if I were to go back in time and tell him I was a hey, god is very happy with you and it has nothing to do with how you're behaving right now, but I think I was very happy with God at that moment. But things changed and that's because of that's called foreshadowing in the business.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So what happened?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I started college and it was great. I got accepted into the second college of my choice. I'm still bitter about that. By the way, ucla Cares about.
Speaker 1:I know, you know, I know cares Westwood not a big deal. Yeah, no tradition.
Speaker 2:That's right, yeah, so I ended up at UC Irvine, which is better anyway, because it was closer to the beach and I love being by the ocean, so that was good. So, I started my mascot at UC Irvine. That was the anteater. Yo, that's right.
Speaker 1:Eaters, let's go.
Speaker 2:So I started school there and it was just so much fun. I had a friend from church that went with me to school and we were meeting all sorts of new friends. We were experiencing this newfound freedom of being college students. I decided to go to pre-med and it was. It was great, right? However I shouldn't say however, because it just sounds so negative, right. So there is this. So eventually, early on that fall quarter, there was an event going on at our church. We had invited a guest speaker and his team to come and put on a revival series, right? So he puts on this revival series at our church and I start to attend, and I think this was a very gifted speaker. By the way, he had a team of young adults and teens that were accompanying him. They were helping out with the program and you know, I'd never heard preaching like that before and the appeals that he was making, I mean, they were epic. Right. And the main theme Excuse me, the main theme was what they referred to as present truth, right? So if you use that phrase, I guess you float that phrase around current adventism. Most people will probably have different things To say about that. It probably means different things to different people, depending on who you ask, but I think I would say in general, for most people it probably represents this idea of conservative adventism, even though I don't necessarily subscribe to that sort of language. That was kind of the the nomenclature maybe that one would describe to this to this team that came out and and presented their Revival series to us. And what was interesting to me about this this series was there was preaching that I'd never heard before, and he was talking about things like health reform, dress reform, avoiding worldliness and obedience to the law and Understanding prophecy and the mark of the beast and the National Sunday Law and all these different things. And I'm sitting there Just completely enamored by all this and I'm just soaking it all up.
Speaker 3:I loved it, right, I felt like what do you know about it?
Speaker 2:I just love that. It was new, it was fresh, and he was hitting it hard the way he presented it and all of a sudden I felt like, oh so this is what Christianity, this is what true adventism looks like. We need to have these reforms. We need to look a certain way, talk a certain way, dress a certain way, eat in certain way and and understand prophecy in a certain context, and know where we are along the prophetic timeline in this stage in Earth's history, and so forth. And we got to do all these things because this is what is expected of us, right? So it was, it was, it was incredible, it was. It was this incredible experience that I was going through and it and at that time I would tell you that my walk with God was being taken to a whole nother level, right. So my friends got baptized, some were getting rebaptized, and you know it's funny. I was just thinking about this today as I was preparing for this, for this podcast. I was thinking about some of the taglines that the preacher and his team would would say to us during the presentations. You know, there was one talk about health reform. Right, he was saying something to the effect of you know God made apples. He made all the fruits, he made apples. But why you got to go make apple pie. Well, what was the apple not good enough? The way he made it Right. Yeah. Right, and then and then, and there was this one thing about eating meat. Like what you need to get your protein from meat, you want protein from from meat. Don't don't you realize that that snake venom is 75 protein? You just want to poison your body so oh wow, this is intense. Yeah, and and, and, then, and. Then there's this one that I remember very clearly to this day is very interesting. It says milk doesn't. What is it milk doesn't do about it? Good right, so in fact, the the milk from from cows is is poisoned with all sorts of bacteria because of Endemic mastitis that that a bunch of cows have. And so, and I'll remember, I'll never forget to see he motions his hand as if he's drinking a jug of milk, saying it's like, it's like drinking a bottle of pus and blood when you're drinking milk and you're taking a milk and guess what? You bought it, I loved it.
Speaker 1:I was like what is it about that? That that made you feel good.
Speaker 2:I, you know I, I guess I'll say it now. It made me feel good because I could use that, or I could leverage that, to put myself in a position over somebody else.
Speaker 1:You didn't know that. That's why you loved it, did you?
Speaker 2:know, I know that now. I know that now. But looking and this is how I know now, because I look I'm looking back I I had done a few things. Let me give you an example. So I loved our church youth group and one of the reasons why I love church so much was because of our youth group. We had a lot of fun together, it was great. And so the one night during this revival series, one of the girls in our group her name was Paulina, and Paulina, if you're out there listening, I'm sorry and I and I say that with all sincerity I really am sorry, because that night I did not represent Christ to you in any way, shape or form. That is not the god of heaven, that is not the god we serve. So that there was one night. We're sitting there, I'm listening to the message he had just started preaching by maybe five, ten minutes into the sermon, I see Paulina walking from the back of the church. She's in like some workout clothes or whatever. Looks like she just gotten back from the gym or whatever, and she sits down and she listens right. And I just look back and Something inside me was like annoyed, right, I was annoyed like why is she late? You know, doesn't she realize what's going on? So after the service concludes, I will go up to her and I approach her and I start to berate her for being late to the service. I mean, I was just giving it to her and I told her about how it's important that we take our commitment seriously, how this is an important revival. We need to respect the time, respect the preacher's time. This is God's time. And as I'm going as I'm, as I think at the moment, I think I'm waxing eloquently she starts to tear up and she starts to cry, right there in front of me and and at that moment, when she starts to cry, instead of feeling compassion for her, I felt this. I finally reached her, I got through to her. Right.
Speaker 1:That's so sad, bro. Have you seen this? Just it just popped into this mind. This, this image of this, this pastor went viral. He's on youtube. Yeah and he's talking about how these kids weren't taken, got seriously enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah and like this kid, like we'll just call him timmy. Timmy wasn't being serious and the pastor's, like I, punched timmy in the chest, because sometimes that's what you need To get things right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did it.
Speaker 1:I punched him. I don't know if you've seen that clip.
Speaker 2:I haven't seen it, but it's, it's terrible.
Speaker 1:I'll find it instead of to you and we'll. We'll cry and laugh together. Yeah yeah, man, like this criticism, I was gonna say did she come back for any of the meetings, do you remember?
Speaker 2:dude, she left the church, man. Yeah, she left Eventually right. And then I think I think you know I'm not gonna say that that all of that was me I mean, there's no, there's any number of reasons why people leave the church or leave god, um but um, that was a reflection. Looking back, that was a reflection of the twisted, distorted view I had of our heavenly father. You treat people the way you think God treats you.
Speaker 1:So this distortion is kind of just taking place, yeah, during these meetings.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah I was. I was thinking really hard about, okay, how did this evolve, how did this come out? And I was thinking about my childhood, I think, my upbringing, you know maybe maybe there's some elements of Of the way my parents raised me that started, that gave me some sort of predilection to be able to grab onto this message. I don't know, maybe I was just Innocently misled or just completely naive and and this seemed really good and right because I'd never heard before and and no one told me otherwise, I don't know, but I grabbed onto it and I ran with it and I I really hurt someone that night and, um, and that's, that's not what god does. That's not how love behaves by any stretch of the imagination.
Speaker 1:When you found, like I don't know, she didn't probably make an announcement and say, hey, I'm leaving the church, but when it kind of after months of her not seeing her or her not being around, what did you think about her Not showing up to church anymore, do you?
Speaker 2:remember Um, I, I, I think I started to feel. Initially I felt like Um, oh, there it is again, um, I thought I had her. Now she's slipping away, right. But then, as I grew and matured you know years, a few months, maybe years after that Um, I realized that what I did was completely wrong. Um, and I think I did talk to a few people about that night afterwards and and sort of um Kind of lamented how I behaved and and kind of apologized for it because it was in view of at least two or three other people. Um, and I tried to placate the situation by bringing up some scripture and and so on and so forth. But you know, at the end of the day, on the moment she was brought to tears, I mean the, the deed was done.
Speaker 1:I think that's better than how I probably would have felt, I think when, when I was younger Probably like early 30s, late 20s I was like, uh, if people leave it's because they're weak. And so if someone left, I'm like, well, they just told on themselves they're weak. Yeah and uh, because I'm strong, I'm never gonna leave. Yet there's stuff going on in my life that I wasn't gonna advertise, or anything like that, but that condescending mindset Wouldn't allow me to be like, oh you know, I would, I would just look down on him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah cool. I'd never do that, though that wasn't me.
Speaker 1:You're wild.
Speaker 4:Richard.
Speaker 2:Maybe Jesus. Bro, no, I, uh, I think in the moment, as I was feeling, you know, I think, but in retrospect and hindsight I I see that I was the one who was being weak and and not compassionate, um, and so, and so this, this whole legalistic mindset, really, um, started to take shape during this time period and and it bled over into my relationship with Tina Um wait.
Speaker 1:Before you go there. Before you go there, just real quick question. How do you remember how you believed um salvation worked? You know, because I'm sure this brother was I. I mean, was he preaching it like you do this for salvation, or was he just preaching like this is how we must live to be different? Or did it all bleed together like it normally does?
Speaker 2:I think. I think, if you were to ask me at that time, um, I would say that we are definitely saved because Jesus died on the cross for us. And then comes the word, the big B word, but? But this is what God expects of us. Mm-hmm. And you better get it together. You better get it done, because if you don't, you know, then someone's gonna get a hurting right. So, so, that probably was my paradigm at that moment. Um, you know, and because I don't it? That's a good question, because I, if I were to get into that, if, if I were to go back and ask myself, I think that's probably what I would say, you know, but the reality was this. I mean, my reformation, what was it? It was just a tool for me to put myself in a position above other people. Right, as long as I was doing this reform or that reform, and you weren't, I had something to say about it. So, instead of like, asking people to be more like Jesus, I wanted them to conform to or emulate my own behavior, right, um, and so there's, there's huge danger in that, and you know, and we don't have to go into all that but there's, there was no joy, first of all, in that, and then, and then Tina got a good dose of it as well. You know, um, we, we went through this journey during that time where she was watching, because we had a long distance relationship. So she lived in Loma Linda, I was in Long Beach. She didn't go to my church, she went to Loma Linda church and every night after every meeting, we would be on the phone and I would tell her about what the pastor was saying and I was breaking it down chapter and verse to her and she was super gracious man, I mean, she would just listen and she was like, oh wow, okay, cool, cool, cool. And I think we were just so like I can't drink milk around this guy, I know I actually gave her a hard time about eating ketchup, right, ketchup, because of oil or vinegar or whatever, I have no idea, I don't remember. Maybe it's just too, too flavorful, okay, it tastes too good. If you do eat it, you better not like it Right, right, um, and so I even started reading spirit of prophecy to her over the phone, like we would have, like you know, over the phone worship and things like that. And she was super gracious, man, I, I, I didn't really know how yeah, she's totally the best, right. So, um, I didn't really know how she was really processing all of this Um, but she was like just she was, she was rolling with it to a degree. She we never really fought about and we were only 18, 19 years old at the time, we never really fought about it and and she actually invited me and my friends to go to her church one time and put on a whole thing and and we each gave a testimony and we were like, just um, we were feeling like the Holy Spirit was moving. We were talking about the bible and about um, commitment and and being fully dedicated. So, and she, she actually wanted us to speak to her young people, the rest of her young, uh, young adult group at them at that time and, um, it was great, you know, we, we, we did that and she actually was very grateful and she, she saw the change in the transformation, although temporary, in a lot of my friends, um, and she felt like, okay, hey, I'll roll with this. So she was very gracious. Um, I don't know if she really Like avoided the things that I was trying to avoid as far as ketchup and milk, but she was still there with me for the ride and I think, um, you'll have to ask her one day what she thought of it, as she was watching it. You know, having your front row seat of this whole experience, um, I just remember her just being super gracious and and not judging me for being judgmental of others, yeah, yeah man, I'm just.
Speaker 1:I'm thinking about this idea of trying to convince people to be dedicated to God. Yeah, yeah and the gospel is not it is the declaration that you have been brought from death to life or from darkness to light, like it's the declaration that this has happened in Jesus Christ. Yeah, and then your participation in the gospel is that you're walking in the truth of who you are. When we preach this to people, we literally don't have to tell them to show up to church or to show up to gather with the saints. Yeah, they like want to be with the saints, they want to be encouraged. In truth, it's crazy. And it's not because we're preaching, hey, I haven't seen you at that Bible study or I haven't seen you at church, it's because there's life there. And when people miss out like I just had a girl message me last night she's like man, I've been missing these things and I just I want to go back. I need that encouragement again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:How different is that than trying to convince somebody to dedicate themselves? They won't be able to do it. You can't convince somebody to love God, right you?
Speaker 2:can't. You can't because when you're trying to convince people to love God or return tithe to God or glorify God in their body, they're not going to do it because they don't know who God is yet. Yeah, if you don't show them who God is, if you don't show them what love looks like in the form of Jesus Christ, why would you want to surrender your heart to someone that you don't really know? And if we're up there behind the pulpit yelling at people to behave a certain way, to be obedient, because you will need to love God, because this is how you show your love for God, that's not going to fall in a good place, that's not going to do anything transformative, because what transforms us, it is the kindness of God that brings us all to repentance. And so what I was doing was I was just living a life under the law, and I wanted to bring other people into that same miserable existence that I was in. And the way I thought I could do that was to guilt, trip them into conformity. And so, as I looked at others, if they didn't believe what I believed or lived in the standards that I lived in, they were less than right I was totally regarding others in the flesh. That's how I looked at people, that's how I related to people, and it was terrible and I pray it's God.
Speaker 1:Somebody showed up who is more dedicated than you. I would be competitive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I'm going to talk about that in a little bit. But yeah, I would be competitive. It wouldn't be inspirational, it would be like a one-up I would try to one-up that person, maybe that person would try to one-up me. It would just be that sort of dynamic.
Speaker 1:Soon enough. You guys aren't eating anything. You're just drinking water all day just looking at each other like, huh, are you going to eat something? Because that probably got sugar in it.
Speaker 2:Is your water reverse osmosis filtered or not?
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, you were in a belt. I got suspenders on player. What's up now? Ella White says that anyway. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't know if she says about that, Sorry. I'm not going to but check this out, yeah, but check this out Right. So do any of these things? Are any of these things bad in and of themselves, right? I mean, that's the question, of course not. Of course not. But the reality is this you will do these things that are good for you, that are good for others. You will behave a certain way, not because someone told you to, not because you're trying to avoid condemnation, not because you're trying to check off a list. You're doing those things because it is in your very nature to live out the righteousness that Christ put in you. Yeah, right, I mean, it is who you are. Now there is a new creature that resides in this place, and here you are living out the righteousness that he has put in you, and you can't do that unless you are made aware that it is there for you, that it was put there in you by Christ. Right, and so the message in my mind was so twisted because all I was doing was painting a picture of God that was so distorted, because it was painted in my mind in a distorted fashion, but I forgot to mention this that preacher who preached. That was in the year 1999. He came back to our church in 2004. He actually repented and apologized for the series that he did.
Speaker 1:Praise the Lord, man he actually said I mean why? Like was he just like man. I came off kind of harsh, like what did he say?
Speaker 2:He said something to the effect of I wasn't there for the entire service because I missed, because I was late.
Speaker 1:So I was like man, take the plank out of your own eye, my friend, before going to sweet Paulina. God bless you, Paulina.
Speaker 2:If you're out there. God loves you, paulina, he just totally loves you. He loved you that night, he loves you today. All right, but yeah, so he actually said that he painted the wrong picture of God when he was here five years prior. Oh, wow. And he said that he came back. He's going back from church to church to repaint that picture of God, and we were his next stop. I was blown away. Were you like wait I?
Speaker 1:like that picture in 1999. Like what are you trying to change?
Speaker 2:No, but by then I had sort of disabused my mind of that entire viewpoint and I was like, wow, this guy came back and it just kind of affirmed that stage of the journey that I was on at that moment. But it was just incredible to see that whole turnaround in his life and him coming back and, just number one, he was preaching with much more smiles on his face. I saw a skip in his step that I didn't see five years prior and it was just an incredible transformation in his own life and he came and wanted to share that with us. So that was cool. Praise the Lord man, yeah, yeah. So, when did this competitive thing happen.
Speaker 1:I don't want you to miss that.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah Well, I mean I think before we go there, because that started up later on in med school, but before we go there, I just want to kind of share how legalism just doesn't work. A false flat on his face, right A false flat on his face, and here's the reason why. So that was like first quarter of my freshman year in college, right? So winter quarter comes, the guy leaves, the series is over, you know, and a lot of us had gotten baptized. I wasn't one of those, but a lot of my friends were baptized and rebaptized and we were just trying to, you know, live this thing out and some people kind of regressed and I started to relax a little bit. But in some ways I still had that conviction and I still wanted to be kind of that heavy hitter. But as the school year was wrapping up, just nine months after the revival series, I had a roommate in my apartment and you know there was a box in his closet that was right there, in plain sight, and it was a box full of VHS tapes.
Speaker 1:I know it's on those VHS tapes.
Speaker 2:And since you already know, so there was, you know, some questionable material, some explicit content on these VHS tapes. And for those of you who don't know what VHS stands for actually I don't even know what it stands for, but I just know it- there are videos at the turn of the century. Right. And so here I am, right, just on the heels of this revival, just nine months after the fact and I'm trying to live out this life that was, you know, impressed upon me and here right in front of me was placed a box full of tapes and lo and behold, there's a VCR of the TV right there. Even how we say, like, this stuff is very accessible to kids these days, and back in the day, you and I had to go out and really kind of seek after it. Sure, well, the devil made it very easy that day, right, he put it right in front of me and I literally had no power to resist. Now, this is interesting to me because, looking back and I was thinking about this, this was not something that I struggled with. I had no addiction to it, I never really started out, this wasn't something that I participated in before, that much right, it was just sometimes I'd seen it, and you know my friends, whatever and it just wasn't a struggle for me. Right. But for some reason, right then and there, at that moment, knowing what I knew and trying to live the life that I was trying to live, I literally had no power to resist, even though I knew in my heart is of hearts, what David says in the book of Psalms. I shall put no wicked thing before my eyes. I knew that text, I knew what this represented, yet I had no power to resist, none whatsoever.
Speaker 1:I think there comes a point in time. I remember being in college, my freshman year, and there were these guys who had all that stuff and they didn't care, like it wasn't a big deal to them. They would like play it in the room where other dudes were in the room. And I'm like yo y'all. I came from a like a day school so I wasn't used to guys like this. But that same thing. One night I was literally crawling into their room to steal it so I could take it back to my room and one of the guys was awake and it was like so stupid, I'm crawling in the dark through the room to get to this stash and the guy's like Richard, just ask me I'll let you borrow it, and so much, so much. Shame man. I was like ha ha, ha, ha ha ha, I wasn't doing that and I left. So much shame.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I'm just wrestling with that shame for probably like weeks and months, Like what's wrong with you, Richard? What's wrong with you? You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I hear you, you know that is so true, right? So for me I didn't know what happened. So it just was almost like I want to use the word inevitable, right. It was almost as if that moment was unavoidable, inevitable. It was like a natural consequence of this distorted view that I had. And I read something in Desire of Ages, recently actually, and she says that the principle that man can save himself by his own works lay at the foundation of every heathen religion. So she talks about this principle of legalism, salvation by works, and she says this wherever this principle is held, men have no barrier against sin. That's wild. If you and I operate or relate to God in the legalistic fashion, trying to gain favor with God through our own merit, there is no barrier against sin. In my effort to stop sinning, to not sin using my own strength, there is no barrier against sin. I'm undermining my own efforts by trying to achieve, attain my own righteousness. It's incredible.
Speaker 1:That reminds me of Romans 6, 14, where he says sin will have no power over you because you are not under the law, you're under grace. But also the truth of it is this if you are under the law, you are not under grace. So there it like. I'm sure that's where Sister White got this from there's no power of God, there's no favor of God for you to. Grace works through righteousness, right. If you are under the law, you don't have that. You're in the flesh. If you're in the flesh, you're under the law. If you're under the law, you're in the flesh and you're not under grace in any of those. And so what power do you have to resist? Only your willpower.
Speaker 2:And if you don't?
Speaker 1:have the best willpower that day you're toast.
Speaker 2:That's right. No, so true, it's so true. And so, in that particular moment of Failure about her failure at least that's how I perceived it at that moment Then came. Then came the guilt, the condemnation, the shame, right. Mm-hmm and you know there's there's more to that whole story. But in the end I started to really feel like there was something seriously wrong With this religion of mine, or there was something seriously wrong with me, right?
Speaker 1:So the reality is I thought there was something wrong with me. I'm like the religions cool. I'm, yeah, messed up, but yeah, yeah you actually started questioning your religion.
Speaker 2:I did. I started questioning both like myself and religion. I don't really think I questioned God. I just think that, you know, because I had a conviction in my mind. I did have a conviction that life shouldn't look like this, but that conviction never really translated to anything tangible in my life, right? So it was just a very confusing time in my life. I didn't really know God. I knew about him and I thought I knew what he expected and I thought I knew how salvation worked, but I Failed in so many different ways. And then came this guilt and condemnation and shame and that cycle just kept repeating itself. And it was. It was a, it was a terrible place to be and it was it. You know, for a young, for a young person coming up, it was hard for sure for sure. Yeah, yeah, but anyway. So going going back to the story, if, if I were to kind of recount the rest of my college days, I just started to focus more on my academics, I think I relaxed a little bit, I did maintain a pretty strong devotional life. I kept reading the Bible. I even joined the Bible Club at school. It was formed by a Non-denominational group, I think I just joined so I could argue certain theological points with them.
Speaker 1:You don't go to heaven when you die people.
Speaker 2:Yes, right, right, it's that it's Sabbath, it's right. Yeah, you better hear me out. So you know, I stayed involved at church, right, I gave Bible studies. I even taught Sabbath school. So this was college. Right, I seem to start preaching. So I started preaching my first sermon in college and I even did a couple series like Revival series at our church during college. Those are pretty cool. I calm down a lot from from that whole Legalistic mindset and I grew up a little bit matured and I became less condemned me of my girlfriend at the time. So it was good things. Things were kind of moving, things are kind of calming down. I felt like, okay, I'm just gonna focus on my academics, getting into medical school, and things were, you know, carrying on rather rather swell, I guess. And then I finally got into medical school and it was good to be back in Adventist education, right. So I started to rub shoulders with other young believers and and I finally recognized, wow, there's a lot of people out there who are a lot smarter than me, but they were, you know, pretty cool and really fun to hang out with. But then there was this one classmate that I had and for some reason he felt the need to attach himself to me In a way that I guess, looking back, probably wasn't the most healthy Friendship for me at the time. He was very competitive academically and I that didn't really go well with me because I don't perform well Academically. When I know that there's someone like trying to compete with me academically, I just want to do well for the sake of doing well. I don't need to have someone Breeding down my neck to to tell him what my latest scores were and all that. But it still got to me right. So he's super competitive in me. He made me feel inferior and that's hard to really interfere with my sense of self-worth, because Every time I had a score that was less than his, oh, he would let me know about it, right, and that really started to impact my studies. And so there was this unhealthy dynamic between me and him already to begin with. But then I tolerated it because I guess for the most part he was still a good friend on some level, right, mm-hmm. But then eventually we became involved on this. We became involved in this campus ministry and this ministry set up revival and Evangelistic series every year on the Loma Leading University campus and we brought him in a lot of good speakers. The student body was always invited. It was actually pretty awesome and as he and I were getting involved and Mingling with other people on the ministry team, I started to notice that he started to change right. He was being born again, again, and so there was this Revival going on and some serious reformation in his life, right, and as I'm watching him go through this, it actually reminded me of my own revival back in college, my own Reformation, I just say, when I was in college. And you know, it was more, probably more, reform than true revival. And as I watched that in him and I saw a lot of the things that he was going through Echo back to kind of what I was going through during college, I couldn't stand it. I Couldn't stand to hear his testimony. I couldn't stand to be around it when he talked about it, when he talked about God, talk about Christ. So I was questioning. I was questioning myself again, because why was I reacting this way to this man's transformation? Shouldn't I be happy for him? Shouldn't I be rejoicing the fact that God was doing a work in him? But I was very spiteful because Either I was jealous that God wasn't doing the same work in me, or upset the fact that the work that I thought he was doing Me wasn't sustained, like I didn't have those reforms as much anymore, and I think it ultimately boiled down to the fact that I was still regarding others in the flesh because there was this competitive spirit between us and I wasn't allow anyone else to to be more quote-unquote spiritual than I was right and he was getting a Lot of attention for it. He was, he was giving us testimony in different forms in different venues and I was, I was coveting that and they, and it wasn't good, it wasn't healthy, and so again it just goes back to the fact of that. I think I think I didn't really have that true heartfelt transformation that would allow me to really really look at people, not regarding them in the flesh but seeing them through the eyes of grace and of love.
Speaker 1:Hmm.
Speaker 2:I was lacking in that.
Speaker 1:Now, did you know that that was being revealed to you, or did you just like? I don't like this.
Speaker 2:I just knew I didn't like it. And I don't think and that's why I look back on it right now it's because I just sucked it up, right, it sucked it up and I moved on and I didn't really address why I was feeling that way. I just knew that I was feeling that way and I didn't like it, and I guess, looking back right now, I can say that it was probably a missed opportunity for some real soul searching, right. So so you know, I just kind of had to dismiss it and I and I tolerated it for for the time and then, and then eventually we got to the stage in medical school where we're doing rotations and so we're in the clinics who are in the wards, and we're spending less time together in the classroom setting. So I didn't really have to to see him as much, and so I was able to distance myself from feeling that that angst, that conviction, right, and I kind of went on my own way and and things just kind of settled in that way, right. But but then this happened, which I think was the beginning of something that blossomed into To kind of perhaps where I am today. This was during the third year of medical school in 2006, the Loma Linda University Church was the. Every year during January, february. They put on this thing called winter Wednesdays, and winter Wednesdays is basically like a Wednesday night prayer meeting, but they also do like Bible studies classes and all sorts of different things and you have this, this whole menu, just to select from. You can do a mom's group, you could do a men's group could do youth, you could do this. I chose Tina and I chose to go to Dr Ivan Blazen on. Remember this guy. He was a, he was a one of the professors in the school of theology alone, linda, and he actually taught the medical students Some classes as far as dealing dealing with your patients, using Christ in the clinical encounter, and so forth. So Ivan Blazen was teaching a class on winter Wednesdays and the name of his class believe or not was called from death to life let's go and I was intrigued by that because, you know, I just and it was a catchy title, right? Speaking of catchy titles, right?
Speaker 1:good, good title for a podcast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:just take out the word from yeah yeah they used to actually be called from death to life with Richard young for like two episodes, but keep going. That's yeah, yeah, so.
Speaker 2:So, tina, I started going to winter Wednesdays and we sit down in Ivan Blazen's class and he goes through Romans 5, 6 and 7, right, and I'm sitting there thinking that, oh yeah, I know this stuff, I know the gospel, right, let's see what he has to say. And he starts to define sin. And it's very interesting because he started to find sin based on the text. Sin is much more Than something that we do. Hmm right, sin is not a primarily behavioral problem. Right, it's not that there's something wrong that I'm doing, there's something wrong with me, right, and more over. Remember, in the text talked about sin Worse, of the effect of sin being a ruling power. Right, there was this, it was his overbearing power that kind of ruled over us, and and then he uses the word prison as well. Sin was a prison and and all of a sudden I start to understand a little bit more about this thing and it finally kind of clicked in my mind a little bit that, okay, sin is not just behavior. Because if all you see sin as is behavior, what are you gonna do to try to rectify the sin problem? You're gonna change your behavior. Mm-hmm right, and, and that's barely scratching the surface. And so, all of a sudden, I'm starting to see the problem in in the proper context, and, and more lights being shed on this thing. And, and then he used the phrase that that I started to use from that point up until now, these two words that Paul uses repeatedly, as you're very familiar, throughout all of his epistles in the New Testament. He uses the phrase in Christ, in Christ. So he starts to Recapitulate this phrase throughout the study and, and and he's saying that when you, when you are in Christ, you're dead to sin, the body of sin is brought to nothing. And so here I am, sitting there, I'm listening to Tina, and my mind is just being opened up, opened up to this idea of being dead to sin. Like what does that even mean, being dead to sin? It sounded really cool and he was explaining it in a way that I think I understood, but it certainly started something inside me and I'll never forget it the. The discussion in the class kind of gets a little animated, not not between me and him, but between him and another person in the audience. This person asked him okay, okay, I get it, but how can you be it be dead to sin? Or he asked this way, I think he said are you still dead to sin if you're committing a sin? And then he asked another question about what about character perfection? Right? So I've emblazoned he's, if you, if you see him, he's like this really older gentleman, white hair, but very well put together and just super clean, cut. And you know, and he's very eloquent with his words and and he, and in response to that question he answers it something to the effect of Actually he answers the question by asking another question. Sure he goes is our character perfection the result of our own behavior or is it gift? Right? And and then we just, we just contemplating that question, and then he goes on. And then another person asked the question well, what about Roman 7, about you know, the thing that I want to do, I don't do, the thing I don't want to do I do. I mean, clearly there's a struggle there in our, in our Christian walk. How can you be dead to sin if sin is still trying to get you to do the things that you don't want to do? And Then he responds by saying well, if you read Roman 7, at the end of it he asks the question who shall deliver me from this body of death? So whatever is going on in Roman 7, it is something from which you and I can be delivered from. And Then he goes to say and then I use this phrase to this day he says the experience of that man at Roman 7, that is not the normative Christian experience.
Speaker 1:I've been blazing my boy.
Speaker 2:Oh, he's dope right, so he goes. That is not the normative Christian experience. And I've read Roman 7s before right, and I have always Used that the way most people use it as an excuse for the struggle that we have with sin and our perpetual sinning. Right, see, there it is like a Paul says that things that we want to do we don't do. We will never Be able to do what we want to do because the thing that we want to do is not what God wants us to do. But he is saying that is not the normative Christian experience and that stuck with me. That's put. That puts such an impression on my heart. That puts such an impression on my mind that it started to To take some root at that moment and I started to really really see the gospel in the way that I never seen before. So fast forward, probably a year or two later, right, I start to give a Bible study to some new believers at the Long Beach Church. I'm just about to graduate from medical medical school. This is my senior year in medical school. I'm about to be shipped off. I, you know, the Navy sponsored me through medical school, so I was gonna go to the Navy and do my internal medicine residency and so forth. So I have like a few months left at my home church, this church that I love, this church that has blessed me so much, and so I'm teaching a class to some new believers there, and the pastor asked me to do it, and and we're having a good time, and I get to the part where I want to talk about being dead to sin, romans chapter 6, and I talk using the language that I learned from Ivan Blazin, and so somebody in the audience brings up Ezekiel 1824. I'll just read a little bit I've written down here. It says but but if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and Commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed. They will die. And so the reason why this guy brings up this text to me because I'm preaching dead to sin, dead to sin. Sin has no power over us. So in Christ you're not condemned, you're dead to sin. And he goes ah, yes, true, but look what Ezekiel 1824 says you can be dead to sin, but the moment you turn away from your righteousness and you commit a sin, you're none of your righteousness will ever be remembered and you will die right. And then he brings up Moses striking the rock instead of speaking to it. And Moses was kept out of the promise land because of that one sin, right so here I am.
Speaker 1:I'm Sabbath everybody.
Speaker 2:Exactly right. I'm closing in prayer now. You thought you were free. We'll take the load of that. Take a look at that, right, here's some chains, yeah, right. So here I am, I'm 27, 26 years old and I'm just trying to kind of get this modicum of truth kind of spreading in my mind, right, and he's challenging me, this older elder in the church is challenging me, right, and I'm feeling completely intimidated here, totally intimidated by this guy. I didn't really have a good answer at that moment. I don't feel like I had the wherewithal to answer him sufficiently at that time, but I simply responded to him this way he says, yes, moses was kept out of Canaan because of that one sin. Then I asked him a question but where is Moses today? Where's Moses today? He just, he laughed and walked away. He laughed and walked away. It's too much grace for him, I guess I don't know. Yeah, mercy. So I'm trying to figure this thing out, right. So the journey, my journey, is starting to be laced with this veneer of truth, right, this little embryonic trace of righteousness by faith. And you know, I just kept on this journey. I just kept on this journey through the residency and starting my first job and I'm starting to learn this thing as I'm going to, you know, when we move to LA and going to church there, and so the seeds of righteousness by faith and the gospel were planted around that time. And then the rest of my adult life is pretty basic. You know, I continue to have this really awesome marriage with my wife and she's not only my life partner but you know, she's my partner in ministry and we have we've been blessed with this family three amazing kids and we're involved in church. I, you know I'm doing more preaching, I'm doing more teaching and I'm putting more elements of the gospel as I understood it into everything that I'm doing, into all the teaching and preaching that I'm doing. And I guess you could say I was generally a decent human being, right, so I didn't ever get involved. I didn't get involved in anything really bad and stuff, and I'm preaching and teaching. People appreciate it. You know the work that I was doing.
Speaker 1:But then you think it during that time was like your main. If I want to hear Matthew Chan preach, what am I going to walk away with? Like that guy's hitting on this, what were you hitting on?
Speaker 2:I think I probably had some new ideas, new perspectives about just stories in the Bible, like I would take like the value of dry bones right. I would take that and apply that in a way where you know you and I can become dry bones. You know God breathed life into you and you know it's God's Holy Spirit that does it work. And so I just had, like you know, different messages that had a fresh take on things that were otherwise familiar. I guess it was kind of some was academic, some was kind of more flashy.
Speaker 1:You know you want to people to think like here. Don't just read the word, think about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's a good way of putting it. I really I felt like I was digging deep and I hit on topics that I felt comfortable talking about and things that I wasn't comfortable talking about. I just avoid it. You know, yeah, but then you don't really know what you don't know, right?
Speaker 1:That's what they say, right yeah and you don't know what.
Speaker 2:You don't know until you start going to the Pasadena church.
Speaker 1:Shout out to the Pasadena church.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love the church. They have been a church, amazing church, right. So Tina and I we were going to a different church for many years after we had moved to LA, moved to Pasadena, and we were going to a church up in La Crescenta, which is about maybe 15, 20 minutes away, and we love that church because it gave us a spiritual family. It gave us a network of friends that we still are staying in touch with today. Our kids played together, we went camping together, we did all these good things. So I had a really cool spiritual family. But that church started to go in a different direction and it no longer felt that it was really a good fit for our family and so we started to look for a new church and we started to do this for a while actually, and we were visiting various other churches and nothing really clicked until one day, in July 2019, I stepped into the Pasadena church with Tina and we sit and we were like, okay, let's transfer a membership. We had made up our minds pretty much after the first Sabbath that we were there. People were nice, sermon was good. They had structured kids program, which was very important to us because of our three kids. They had Pathfinders, which was awesome and so. So it was cool. So Pasadena became our new home. I quickly learned that there were some real Bible scholars at this church. I mean some ridiculously serious students of the word, and you know some of them already, right People, yeah, my people, right. So I'm like, wow, this is cool. And for the first time, instead of feeling competitive with these folks, I felt challenged in a very good way. I was inspired and I enjoyed just hanging out and talking about the Bible and talking about God and learning from these guys. It was awesome, right. So I joined those men's group and, long story short, all we talked about in the men's group was the Gospel. It was a righteousness by faith, and we had this text thread. We were going on and on just getting into the weeds, right, creating great controversies out of minutiae. You know, it was fun, right, it was cool.
Speaker 1:What did you guys decide about righteousness by faith? What was the bottom line of?
Speaker 2:it. So I think we all agree that definitely, christ was our righteousness. And I think some would probably lean towards, okay, yes, christ is our righteousness, but you still got to get it done. Yeah, there's always the butter. You still got to get it done and make sure that you don't lose that righteousness, whereas others were probably leaning towards look, in Christ, there's no condemnation. You can walk in the Spirit and still make mistakes, and God will still keep you in the palm of His hand, and so forth. And we were just going back and forth, right, yeah, and it was fun. It was more of an academic exercise for me, and then I started to get new light as we got deeper into the weeds, if you will, and it was cool. But then all of a sudden, this guy comes to our church to do a week of prayer. He was a pretty young guy, like, literally, he was. He is a young guy.
Speaker 1:So let me say this Shout out to Pastor Byron. Yeah yeah, I get invited out there and he's like you can stay at my crib and I'm like, say, less man, I just want to be with people. I want to you know, anytime. I feel like if I'm going to be at somebody's house, I'm like, well, they're kind of hostage to me talking to them. And then he's like I have cats and I'm like I cannot stay at your house. And then he's like, okay, I'll set it up, we'll hook it up, and you give me a call one day and this is just my first impression of you. We're on the phone and I'm like man, this is. I think you mentioned that you were Dr Matthew Chan, or I don't think you were like trying to, but I was like what a wonderful, sincere professional. Like this guy sounds super friendly. I hope he's not. Like I hope I don't mess him up. Like I hope I hope I don't, because I know that what we preach when we go just starting in Roman six freedom from sin I know how people get triggered. And so I'm like I hope, I hope it's cool. And I'm like and then you said that you weren't going to be there the first night. And so I'm like, oh so the first time I'm going to see this guy is at church. And so this is all in my mind and I'm like I hope I don't mess this guy up. So that's what I was thinking. After I got off the phone with you I was like what a wonderful sounds like a wonderful person. That that's what I was thinking.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, just want to actually get up there. No, that's cool. I appreciate that, and you know, for me, I'm here talking to you asking UK dietary preferences, what times you're fly, you know I have a room for prayer for you, this and that you're just going through all the pleasantries. And then I remember and this was what was really cool was because you said two things. The first thing you said to me was you actually asked me. You asked something about me. I think you asked where am I from, or what do I do, or something you asked about me like really early on in the conversation, like you had this genuine interest about this guy that was going to host you during the, the week of prayer, and that was to me, that's super cool. I can't tell you how refreshing it is when someone asks about me not that I like talking about myself, because clearly I don't, which is why I'm even hesitant to do this right now but when someone asks what do you do, where are you from, tell me about your life, that tells me something about you. So I was right away taken in by that. And the second thing you said to me was this message changed my life. I was like oh, what is this guy about? He's friendly, he's cool, he's asking about me, so I don't think he's self absorbed, right. And then I finally meet him, right. But then and on top of that, he has this genuine relationship with God. That changed who. He was Right. And so I walked away from that conversation really intrigued and I was like, okay, this is going to be cool Now. Mind you, I didn't know anything about this podcast, I just heard about it from Byron. He says hey, this is a guy who hosts death to life, and I think I had checked out a video or two, maybe a few clips of it, and then, and then there was this whole thing about love, reality. That that I didn't know about either either, only through Byron, like in passing, but I didn't know that there was a connection at all. So, anyway. So so you come right, and I wasn't there the first night. You were here because we were out of town. So the first time I was going to see you was when you were up there preaching at our church and I'm sitting there right, and there's a whole backstory to why Tina said this, but we won't have time to go into that. So we're sitting there listening to you and I'm like, okay, okay, okay, this is good. You know, freedom from sin, this is good. And then Tina nudges me and she's like what did she say? She said something to the effect of like are your ears burning right now? Or I think she was trying to ask me, like Is this message bothering you, right? And there's the reason why she asked that, because I think there was someone was trying to poison the well before we drank of it, right? And and I think she caught wind of that. And so I think she was primed and I was a little bit primed in a way, kind of like biased, biased against the message already without even hearing it, but I didn't allow myself to really really get biased, right.
Speaker 1:Because I was staying at my house.
Speaker 2:I got sure, exactly right. So I didn't, I didn't imbibe all the things that were preliminarily sent out about Richard Young, let me just put it that way. Okay, and I intentionally kind of kept it at arms length and kind of distance myself from that whole, from that whole thing. So I'm sitting there and she's nudging me and and she's like she asked me Okay, so how's this landing? And then I say no, this is good, like why would you even ask that this is good, right, and so? And so, long story short, the time that I spend with this Richard Young guy, like the first time we had any amount of time together.
Speaker 1:We get into what an hour long conversation. I don't even know what longer than two hours.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Two hours.
Speaker 1:The first one it must have been and it seemed like to me the whole time you were agreeing with me. I may have said, oh, you know I wouldn't say it like that, but I wasn't trying to correct you in your own home like hey, I'm staying in the guest bedroom and you should think about it like this. But I know we talked and talked, and talked, but there was I think one night we got into something like deeper. Oh, it was about the law. Yeah yeah, when we started talking about the law and I was like what's your relationship to the law? And I think it's before I preached about the law. That we started. Do you like? In that week I'll let you tell the story, what was kind of unfolding in your mind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So long story short, the pieces were finally coming together, and I think we're not for the journey I had just come through, because I do believe that God was grooming me over the years to receive this message, and that light just went off on my head today as I was thinking about it. I was like, okay, what am I gonna say in this podcast? Because the reality was it was a slow transition and this speaks to the mercy and the grace of God. Man, let me tell you, he will reveal to you only what you can handle at that moment, and that is nothing to be ashamed of. That is nothing to be ashamed of because that is something to be excited about, because God wants to reveal truth to you in a way that will sit well with you and allow for more transformation and to bring you closer to Him. And if the word not for the grace of God and His patience and His longsuffering, our interactions that week would have been totally different. Let me tell you, it would have been totally different If you were to stay at Matthew Chan's house 10, 15 years before that. I think the interaction would have been very, very different and I would not have gleaned as much as I did, because it took a lot of time. I'm a slow learner. It took a lot of time for me to soften up and to be ready to receive this message, and so, as you and I were talking, I remember very clearly it must have been the first or the second night, maybe the first two nights after our conversations and after your messages. I actually had trouble sleeping because I was trying to rationalize in my mind or trying to come up with a way to make you wrong.
Speaker 1:And I never would have guessed that man you were, so it seemed like agreeable.
Speaker 2:I was agreeable because I was agreeable, but then when I sat down and thought about it I was like no, I can't give it to you what was the thing that I was gonna be wrong about?
Speaker 1:or you were trying to figure out how I could be wrong.
Speaker 2:Let me actually rephrase it. I don't think even you think it was you being wrong. Let me rephrase it this way you actually brought up stuff and passages and texts and linked them together in a way that I didn't know about or I didn't come up with on my own, having read those same passages for decades, and I think that's what bothered me, so it was like a little pride, a little pride, a little pride, yeah, a little residue of pride that I was struggling with. And then those first two nights I was thinking wait a second, why am I resisting good news? Why am I resisting good news? I mean, it clearly had nothing to do with the news itself, because the news was good, that I have been set free from sin and that I am dead to sin. The old man has been crucified. What's so harmful about that? And it couldn't have been the messenger because, remember, you and I have had this conversation on the phone. I walked away intrigued and I started to like you already just from that first conversations. It wasn't really the messenger, it really was just me, just slowly, slowly having to believe in something that was external to me but that was also given to me to internalize. I don't know if that makes any sense, but it was something that I didn't come up with, and so I really had to let go of that control or that desire for being the progenitor of my salvation, so to speak. So it was an interesting phenomenon, but I praise God because it dissipated very quickly, very, very quickly. I think by Sunday or Monday I was like Tina and I were like, oh, we're all in, this is good, this is good news. And then and we just had so much fun having you over and going to the messages and it was just really good- Okay, we're gonna take a real quick break.
Speaker 1:Right now I'm gonna bring on my brother TJ TJ. How long you been rocking with the gospel, my guy.
Speaker 4:Since March of 2023.
Speaker 1:March of 2023?.
Speaker 4:March of 2023.
Speaker 1:That is not that long ago. No, it's not even a year. What has this gospel done to change your life?
Speaker 4:It's really had a profound and powerful impact on every aspect of my life and I can honestly say that each day is a new unveiling of all of the ways that God wants to speak to me and bless me. And it's been really beautiful man, Absolutely beautiful and freeing.
Speaker 1:Man, you have given your hard earned scrilla time influence to keep this ministry, this gospel, going. Why is that important to you?
Speaker 4:It's the pure gospel and that means everything to me. I have grown up in church, I've been to a lot of different churches, I have spent time in a number of different denominations and I've talked to a lot of different people. And the thread that is connecting all of these different experiences, all these different churches, all these different people, is a hungering and a thirsting after that good, good gospel. And what I've experienced is that a lot of churches, a lot of preachers, for whatever reason, aren't delivering on the goods. And it's been my experience that Love Reality is so hyper focused on just getting that good gospel out there that I wanna do whatever I can to support that and make sure that that message goes to as many people as possible.
Speaker 1:Man alive and we're gonna have you on here. Everybody keep your ears peeled for Brother TJ coming on the podcast when who's to say when? But if you wanna partner with Love Reality, go to loverealityorg slash give, loverealityorg slash give. And every dollar goes towards keeping this thing going, moving it forward into 2024 and into the future. So loverealityorg slash give. Thanks so much, tj. I appreciate you, man.
Speaker 4:I appreciate you and in Christ, by faith, you are free from sin. That radio voice let's go.
Speaker 2:So I think I was resistant for those reasons, but really not that much because, again, god was grooming me all those years to receive the message and it was powerful man, it just literally kind of made me. I said this to a bunch of people at church. I felt a hundred pounds lighter. I really did, because I understood the message of freedom being set free for freedom's sake, being set free to live the life that you were made to live, being free to finally no longer regard people in the flesh, being free to enjoy relationships because that other person has also been set free, that other person has also been forgiven by God and as much as I have been forgiven by God, and so we regard others no longer in the flesh and we see everyone with the good that Christ has put in them. And it's just so liberating to finally see the best in people and to hope the best for people. And I just felt lighter. And then my relationship started to change and the way I looked at people changed and the way I saw God changed and it was just, it was incredible, right. So this idea of freedom, I just felt lighter, you know, and it was powerful.
Speaker 1:Man, what I remember is those first couple nights and I'm always people don't think I'm aware because I kind of bulldoze, like even if there's kind of awkwardness in a conversation.
Speaker 2:I am aware.
Speaker 1:I just don't care a lot of the time, like I'm like, so I'm kind of watching your wife, tina, and seeing if she's uncomfortable, but then I see like she seems to be curious and I'll let her tell her own story. But you and I were just going back and forth and we're just talking and I'm like, oh, I'm getting excited. Now, man, you're, you know, we're talking about this thing and it's so exciting to me because, like I said, it's changed my life. And so it seemed like every night we were kind of wrapping up some kind of deep theological question, like well, if we're free from sin, why do we sin, and what is temptation and what is actually our relationship to the law? And I think God was just blessing our interactions. And I really felt by Saturday afternoon because I think, I mean, by the time this podcast comes out, arnold's would have already been out. You saw, maybe, what was going on with Arnold and Sharon and all of this stuff. And that night that we all got together at your house with John and everyone was there. And this is after like a thing at the church that it felt like a little kind of a little weird, like people were pushing back and it just felt like a tense moment. But that night I was just like I'm about to leave the next day and I just felt like you guys were my family.
Speaker 2:Like.
Speaker 1:I really felt that God had just blessed and it felt like for me, like not only like did you believe this, but like you were like no, the gospel is my life. Like I felt like you're like no, yeah, this is it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it was deep, definitely, I think. As that week transpired, I think there were things that happened that that if it happened to someone else who hadn't been transformed by this message, we would have seen a different outcome. And, as they say, the proof is in the pudding. How you dealt with that little bit of angst that perhaps you felt, how you dealt with that could only have happened because of Christ in you. Does that make sense? That that's the only way that could have happened? Because when you're transformed by the gospel and Christ is in you and he has filled every nook and cranny of your existence and he fulfills every need for affirmation that you have, he fulfills all the holes in your heart, he makes you completely and totally whole, you live a different type of life. You live a life that doesn't require any of that to come from anybody else, right? And so I think that was testament to the power of this message, because it was manifested in your life. And, man, let me, let me, if it's okay, let me just share a couple of verses. Okay, is that all right?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, man.
Speaker 2:You don't mind me sharing a couple of Bible verses.
Speaker 1:Oh, the Bible Is that okay, yeah, so. Well, okay, we have some time.
Speaker 2:Let me just read some texts that came out of me that week and that I still read to this day, kind of going back to it, just to refresh how powerful this message is right. So, second Corinthians, chapter three, it says now, if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters of stone, came with glory so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of his glory, transitory though it was, will not the ministry of this spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness? So I mean, anyone who's ever read the New Testament has probably read that text. And so, reading it now through this new lens of the gospel and reading it through this lens of freedom, what was happening to me? I realized something I had a relationship with the law, but not the law giver right. And so what this text is saying is the law was good because it describes it in glory. It says it caused the face of Moses to shine in glory, but it clarifies that the purpose of the law was to show me my need of Christ, because it has no power to save. There's no righteousness that I can derive from the law whatsoever. But when Christ came, when faith came, guess what? The glory that comes from a life in the spirit. It far outshines the glory of the law. Does that mean that the law is gone? No, I mean, at night you see the stars, but when the sun rises the stars disappear. But does that mean the stars are gone? Of course not. It's just because of the son of righteousness has risen and it outshines those stars. You can't see them anymore. And so the idea of being in Christ and the righteousness that he puts in your heart, guess what? It far exceeds what was written on those two tablets of stone. And so that spoke to me. I mean, that was just new revelation to me. Right, that all of a sudden there was a righteousness that comes apart from the law that Christ puts in me, that far exceeds what was written on those two tablets of stone. Because we believe that the law is a transcript of God's character. Right and so. But if the law is God's character, then that's it, that's the standard. But the Bible says otherwise. It says no, there is glory that is to come that far outshines, and that glory comes from Christ. And so when I understood that and I grasped that. I was like, wow, I had a relationship with the law, I had a relationship with standards, I had a relationship with all expectations, but I did not have a relationship with the law giver. And if you don't have a relationship with the law giver, if he is not in you, there's no hope of you ever meeting the standards of the law. But when he is in you, guess what? Not only do you live a life in agreement with the law, the law has nothing to say to you. Just like as in 1 Timothy, chapter one, verse eight, right, the law was not laid down for the righteous right. The law doesn't have anything to say about you because you have now exceeded its requirements in Christ.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Romans three says you fulfilled the law.
Speaker 2:Amen, amen. So all of a sudden, I started to see people through the eyes of Christ. I see them just as forgiven as I had been forgiven, right. And in 2 Corinthians was it five? It says that Christ is, or God is, reconciling the world to himself and he doesn't hold their trespasses against them. I mean, that's so powerful to know that God approaches people not holding a grudge against them. Right, it's so liberating to finally see the best in people, like I said earlier, because if God is not holding something against them, why would I who am I to hold something against them? Right, and so it gives you this power to live an unaffended life. Right, I was at a conference just recently, a medical conference, an Adventist medical conference, and they had this really cool thing about forgiveness, about the importance of forgiving others. You gotta let go because it's good for your mental health, it's good for your cardiovascular health, right? All these different things of why we should forgive, and I thought that was cool, that's really cool. But when you become the righteousness of God, everything changes. Why? Because, all of a sudden, you aren't offended to begin with, right, those various slights that used to vex you, like you know, do you say that you know you push my buttons. Well, guess what? When you're in Christ, you don't have any buttons. Those buttons that used to get pushed, they're gone, and so it's almost as like it's not. I'm not trying to say you don't have to forgive, but the forgiveness is already there because you weren't necessarily offended to begin with, and so how you relate to others, how I started to relate to people, changed. How I related to my kids changed. I'm much more patient with my kids. I'm much more patient with the people at work. I mean the relationship that I had with my wife, which was already amazing, which was great. God blesses with a really good marriage. I mean it's taken to a whole nother level now, and it's just been an experience that I can only attribute to the power and the mercy and the grace of God.
Speaker 1:Praise the Lord man. As I'm thinking about this, as we're wrapping this up, I'm thinking about and I was that week I was kind of pushing a little bit. I didn't want to push too hard about old Matthew, but as we think about old Matthew, the old Matthew 506. Wanted to be successful. There was probably a little ambition that probably went over the line and it was. You know, in Philippians 2 says have no selfish ambition. There was a lot of healthy ambition in Old Matthew but there was some selfish ambition in there as well. And I kind of pushed you a little bit. And then, as you're talking about this legalistic mindset that you had, old Matthew had, if you were able to run across this Old Matthew who was a little selfish but didn't want anybody to know, couldn't really understand it himself and wanted to kind of show others. This is the way to live, but not by, like how Paul says, emulate me as I emulate Christ. It was more like look at me and how holy I am. If you got to and this is a tougher one because most of the deaths of life like you're pulling Sharon aside and you're telling your no, you are value. If you get to talk to this dude. What would you try to encourage him with?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good question. I knew you were going to ask this question.
Speaker 3:If you've listened to one death of life podcast, you know it's coming.
Speaker 2:You know I'll answer that question. But before I answer that question, I want to say a couple more things. Do it. I don't want to come across as me no longer suffering temptation, right. So none of this means that I'm no longer tempted, right, I'm still tempted to think certain things about people you know. Perhaps tempted to take an unholy glance at someone, right, Tempted to lose my patience with my kids or my colleagues or my wife, right. And I even think that the temptations now are coming much more frequently and perhaps even with more fierceness. Right. But here's the difference. And then we'll get to what I would say to old Matthew. The difference is this See, before, especially during my most legalistic years, back in college, I think I literally had no power to resist. Sinning was just natural, right, there was no barrier, it was inevitable. But now, as someone who has died to sin, as someone who I can say with the uttermost confidence, someone who has passed over from death to life, sin has no power over me, and I praise God for that. And I realize that now. And so these temptations, like when you see them and they're pitted against this immeasurable power, this, this illimitable power of the grace of God, these temptations. They literally shrink into nothingness, right. Wow. So every thought now is held captive to the obedience of Christ, and so that's the difference Whereas temptation was just kind of like an open door through which I would easily walk, now it has no power over me because of Christ, that work in me and when you realize that you are dead to sin and that it has no power over you, then you see it in its rightful place, which is sin is just a lie, it's deceit, it's. It makes you, it's trying to make you think that it's big and powerful and irresistible. But what's truth? The truth is, he that is in me is greater than he that is in the world.
Speaker 1:What.
Speaker 2:So that's true. Let's go. And so this is what I would do. This is what I would say to old Matthew. I will go back and say this and I'll tell you why I never had assurance of salvation in all the years of being a Christian. I don't think that if you were to go back and ask me, matthew, are you saved? I will not be able to give you a definitive answer. Today. I can give you a resounding yes. So I will go back and I will tell old Matthew this. I will tell him that your salvation is rooted in an objective, verifiable historical fact, and that is this Christ died, he rose again and you are free. The deed is done, run with it. That's what I would say. It's done.
Speaker 1:Let's go, man, you guys don't have goosebumps right now. If you're not listening to this and you want to run through a wall and tell somebody, hey, god has not counted your trespasses against you. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God for our sake. He became sin even though he knew no sin, so that you might become the righteous of the God of Christ. If you don't feel like doing that right now, start the podcast over and listen to it again. Oh man, that is, that's powerful, and I just see it in your life lived. I see, yeah, I never knew old Matthew. Unfortunately. I did God rest his soul, but new Matthew man, you are a powerful minister of the gospel man and you get to do it for your wife, for your kids, for your community, and it is a testimony to me and I've been blessed by it, man. So thank you so much for being a city on a hill, because I see your good works and I'm glorifying God because of them. So thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you and praise God.
Speaker 1:Amen, man, in thinking about Matthew's story and the things that we grow up with that keep us believing a certain thing If your past, if your background, has been a background that has led you to not be able to understand how free this is, that salvation is a gift, than this prayer is for you. Father, allow me to see your word through the lens of what Jesus Christ has done. Do not allow me to go any further, reading this, reading these scriptures, without seeing it through the lens of your finished work at the cross. If there's something I need to unlearn, show me that thing so that I can see things through truth. I believe you'll do it, because I'm praying in Jesus's name. Guys, we love you to be a part of the Love Reality Gospel community online. Check it out on Facebook Love Reality Gospel Community. We are chopping it up on there every single day, talking about your love, not your love, god's love and what you can receive in him. So, yeah, check out the Love Reality Gospel Community. It is a blessing.