Today's episode delves into Cassie's remarkable journey, rich with themes of faith, adversity, and transformation. From her strict religious upbringing in a rural community to liberating experiences in South Korea, Cassie's story navigates identity, love, and spirituality with vivid clarity. We accompany Cassie through vulnerable moments, from tumultuous relationships to confronting personal struggles with alcohol and depression. Her courage to break toxic ties showcases the power of hitting rock bottom and making tough but necessary decisions. Through music, faith, and embracing authenticity, Cassie's narrative offers hope amidst life's challenges. She shares how her crisis led to profound personal growth, highlighting the importance of seeking support from groups like ACA and Al-Anon. Cassie's journey culminates in a heartfelt exploration of gospel's healing power and her dedication to spreading its message, demonstrating the redemptive strength found in understanding God's unconditional love. This episode celebrates the emergence of hope, love, and purpose in the aftermath of life's storms.
0:00 - Transformative Stories of Faith
8:13 - Growing Up in a Rural Community
13:23 - Navigating Religious Rules and Personal Growth
32:14 - Identity Crisis and Dating Strategy
36:56 - Semester Abroad and Relationship Troubles
50:00 - Navigating Unhealthy Relationships
55:46 - Life Crisis and Relationship Struggles
1:02:42 - Camp Experience and Relationship Challenges
1:11:07 - Toxic Relationship Escape for Fresh Start
1:21:15 - Unexpected Love Story in the Mountains
1:30:34 - Unconventional Relationship Journey
1:47:26 - Journey From Dysfunction to Freedom
2:04:53 - Healing and Freedom Through the Gospel
💰 DONATE & SUPPORT our Ministry: lovereality.org/give
📷 FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/riyoung31/
📚 LEARN more at our site: lovereality.org
Today's episode delves into Cassie's remarkable journey, rich with themes of faith, adversity, and transformation. From her strict religious upbringing in a rural community to liberating experiences in South Korea, Cassie's story navigates identity, love, and spirituality with vivid clarity. We accompany Cassie through vulnerable moments, from tumultuous relationships to confronting personal struggles with alcohol and depression. Her courage to break toxic ties showcases the power of hitting rock bottom and making tough but necessary decisions. Through music, faith, and embracing authenticity, Cassie's narrative offers hope amidst life's challenges. She shares how her crisis led to profound personal growth, highlighting the importance of seeking support from groups like ACA and Al-Anon. Cassie's journey culminates in a heartfelt exploration of gospel's healing power and her dedication to spreading its message, demonstrating the redemptive strength found in understanding God's unconditional love. This episode celebrates the emergence of hope, love, and purpose in the aftermath of life's storms.
0:00 - Transformative Stories of Faith
8:13 - Growing Up in a Rural Community
13:23 - Navigating Religious Rules and Personal Growth
32:14 - Identity Crisis and Dating Strategy
36:56 - Semester Abroad and Relationship Troubles
50:00 - Navigating Unhealthy Relationships
55:46 - Life Crisis and Relationship Struggles
1:02:42 - Camp Experience and Relationship Challenges
1:11:07 - Toxic Relationship Escape for Fresh Start
1:21:15 - Unexpected Love Story in the Mountains
1:30:34 - Unconventional Relationship Journey
1:47:26 - Journey From Dysfunction to Freedom
2:04:53 - Healing and Freedom Through the Gospel
💰 DONATE & SUPPORT our Ministry: lovereality.org/give
📷 FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/riyoung31/
📚 LEARN more at our site: lovereality.org
The world doesn't think that the gospel can change your life, but we know that it can and that's why we want you to hear these stories, stories of transformation, stories of freedom, people getting free from sin and healed from sin because of Jesus. This is death to life.
Speaker 2:I was clear when I said we were broken up and I care about you as a human, but not as a friend and he was like he didn't know how to take that and I just didn't take the bait and he hung up the throne and like I just I could not, like I had had a period away from that at this point. That was super hard, but because I was addicted to it in a way, to be honest, I was addicted to the crazy and now that I had had a few weeks away from that I was. I've had the clarity of mind to be like I know what I said, I'm out. That was tough. I didn't know how to deal with this, so I started drinking. This is a story I keep getting worse.
Speaker 1:Yo, yo, yo yo. Welcome to the Death to Life podcast. I'm Richard Young. This week's episode is with Cassie, and Cassie has a story. I didn't. I asked her to record this thing years ago and she was like nah, son, I'm not trying to record with you. No, it wasn't like that. It was sensitive. And this story is so powerful because it just shows, when we don't feel safe because of the lies of the enemy, what we end up doing. And her life lived is amazing. She is a blessing, she is a testimony, and this story is powerful. So let's go in. This is Cassie. Buckle up, strap in love y'all, appreciate y'all. Okay, cassie, as you think about where your story starts, a little background, guys, cassie and I just recorded like four minutes and I hadn't pressed record because I'm a dummy. But as we're thinking about where you start, where does this whole thing start with you?
Speaker 2:So I think that for me, like my story starts at the beginning, right, I am privileged to say that I grew up knowing God. It's some capacity, my whole life, and that's a really cool place to be. But also there was a lot of me misunderstanding God, whether that's, you know, my own interpretation or my circumstances, or the influence of others, it's whatever. But even amidst the death of my story, it's really cool because God shows up so much for me and it was really cool writing out my stories, nerdy note cards and like just seeing, even amidst the deception that I was living in, how God was present. God was talking to me and in the times that I was willing to listen, that I could see him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that the one of the words that comes to my mind the most when I'm recording these episodes and I hear all of the blunders that God turns to wonders is the word merciful. Like he, we've done so much foolishness not believed, live in unbelief. Like Jesus is, like I'm him, I'm the way, I'm the truth, I'm the life, and we look for other things and yet through all of that, he is merciful and loving and patient, and I've seen that in so so many stories. So I don't doubt that it's going to be a part of your story.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I guess just to process my story a little bit. I am inspired to share my story because I've heard so many stories other people have shared that have really inspired me, and I remember when you first asked me to share my podcast, my story was in I think it was in 2021, when y'all came and stayed at my house when you were doing an event, there was like four episodes out and I was like Cassie, we need you to be episode seven and you were like no, yeah, it's like whoa.
Speaker 2:And enough people have broken the ice before me now, and I've seen the power of stories being shared, so one of the lives that I have believed in my life is that nobody is listening and nobody cares. And so here I am, sharing my story in a delicate way, because there are a lot of people in my life whom I love that do not yet live in freedom, and I have found that when you tell stories of death to life, sometimes the people who hear them, who their heart, might not quite be there yet, it can feel offensive, and so I'm going to try really hard today to tell my side of the story, and only my side of the story, and a few things have been purposely phrased delicately as to like protect identities of others, and also I just I respect their privacy. I want to hear their story on this podcast someday, so just know that if there's something here that you're like there's ambiguity.
Speaker 1:I shouldn't be like now who is that person, what's their middle name. I should probably just be like okay For sure, All right, Okay.
Speaker 2:I mean. But also, if you heard this podcast and you're like, ooh, being in a serious relationship with an addict is part of my story, like, just reach out to me. I'm happy to talk to people one on one in ways that I don't feel like it's fair to share publicly, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Totally Good preface.
Speaker 2:So I'll start when I am born early in my life, so setting the stage of like who I am. I grew up with like a not very traditional I don't know like. I didn't grow up in a suburb, I grew up on a farm.
Speaker 1:Which Dakota was it? Because I just heard that soul that's North Dakota. Is it North Dakota?
Speaker 2:So I went to church in Wapen and North Dakota. Our farm was actually in Minnesota, just like 30 miles south of Wapen, and it was just like the church my grandparents had gone to. So that's the church we always went to and just kind of how it shaped up. But yeah, I like it was rural, not rural like Wyoming is rural. That's where I live now. It's not like that, but like I went to public school my whole career and the graduating class that I graduated with was seven.
Speaker 1:Okay, seven, seven In the Wapeten High School, or was this a?
Speaker 2:So this was 30 miles south of there in Campbell Minnesota. My teachers were mostly great, the kids I went to school with like I just didn't have much of a social life, like I knew between kids Strange With both of the kids in your class.
Speaker 1:That would be strange.
Speaker 2:For sure. I mean, and like it's interesting because, like I don't know, I just I always kind of beat to my own drum, like whatever the other kids were into. Peer pressure did not have much of an effect on me. I was just like, oh, that's what you're doing, okay, like it just didn't like.
Speaker 1:Are you a contrarian?
Speaker 2:A little bit.
Speaker 1:I would say that yeah, when I first met you I was a tad nervous about around you. Because I thought, if I said something you would be like no, it's actually the opposite of that. And so I was like, oh and my old affirmation. I was like I need to be careful around Cassie. You were a little intense back in 2021. Maybe that, maybe I was wrong.
Speaker 2:I'm still probably a little intense, to be fair. Just a little, that's um, I don't think I'm contrarian just to be contrarian, but I also will not agree with you just to smooth things over.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you told me stuff. Now all this is coming back. I don't know if this is part of your story, but when I was like talking to you about the podcast, you were like I probably don't like you, richard. I don't remember if it was exactly like. No, you said you hated the way I interviewed and that actually helped me because I talked to and I'm doing it right now. I talked a lot during the interview, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah, we were at Bernice's house talking about this and you're like, I just met you. You probably won't be honest with me. I was like you don't know me very well, so here we are, but yeah, start with that.
Speaker 1:We were talking about a small school, small class, a little bit contrarian. No peer pressure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I didn't have a lot of friends. We had, like other kids my age, at church. We did stuff with them on Sabbaths. My grandparents lived next door on the same like farm set as us. I spent a lot of time with them and they were really religious, very Adventist. I don't know what generation they were, but what does that mean?
Speaker 1:How does that manifest how Adventist they were?
Speaker 2:Is it just like health reform, or yeah, like they were super into the Ellen White stuff writings, some of the writings about health reform, and really into Daniel and Revelation and like very, very law keeping, very focused on law. So like I remember I don't know how young old I was, probably upper elementary school I would like paint my nails and go over there and like I would hear about it Big time. Not good, but you know how I was living in sin and making poor choices and that's like really intense for an elementary school kid to be getting a lecture like that.
Speaker 1:I'm sure.
Speaker 2:And I also. I was at People Pleaser and so that was just hard on me because I was like how I hear like change who I am to go over here to make her happy? It was always my grandma. My grandpa was the one sneaking me M&M's under the table.
Speaker 1:That's the difference I thought he was like painting your nails under the table. He was like I don't care.
Speaker 2:We can no, no, no, no, not quite at that level. So like I would tag along with them to a lot of things, like our church would do evangelistic series and I would tag along Cool and just kind of like, you know, attending, being present. I think I've always tended on the serious side, even as a child, and so like when I went to these Daniel and Revelation meetings as a 10 year old, I was listening Okay, like I might have been coloring on the bottom of my shoes, but I was listening. And so early in life, here God is someone who I do things for and he sets the rules and I'm supposed to figure out the game and follow it and then you were good at following.
Speaker 2:I think I think I was for the most part and I wasn't contrary, in that it wasn't like tell me the rules so I can break it. It was like I just want to be successful and make you happy, so tell me the rules. But the problem was that there was different sets of rules and according to different people.
Speaker 1:Oh, for sure it does.
Speaker 2:So at a young age that was like hard to rectify. In my mind it's fine, I like understand it now as an adult, but as a kid there wasn't always consistency there. And then so fast forwarding a little bit middle middle to high school this is really like where I came into the awareness that alcohol had a huge impact on my family life. And the crazy part about alcoholism is it doesn't just affect the alcohol, it all alcoholic, it affects everybody Absolutely. And kind of an interesting component of that too that I realized in my adult life is like the extreme religious legalism that my grandparents lived under also exhibits a lot of the same properties of alcoholism and so like for those people.
Speaker 1:What are the common components there?
Speaker 2:So maybe the easiest part is, if somebody's curious, google the laundry list of adult children, of alcoholics and dysfunctional families. There's a list of 14 traits and people who grow up in extremely legalistic households often identify with that list just as well as people who grew up in alcoholic homes, and it's like it's just the enemy's method of deception. You know, like I'm not a counselor so I can't speak to it super articulately, but it's just like a lot of those same addictive traits that make a person tend to abuse alcohol or drugs, like it's a hard flip and then it's like, oh well, we can overcome this here, let me overcome this and I'm going to follow this list so well that it's like the new drug, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:So I developed some coping mechanisms to deal with this. I mentioned I was a people pleaser. I really tried to control the mood of the room around me and if I couldn't control it I would escape it entirely. And so, as a result of these, I really leaned into school. So, like you know, middle high school school is getting more serious now and the roles were really clear there. I knew how to play the game, I knew how to succeed at the game and I really, to be fair, loved learning. I loved studying and, like the seriousness that I mentioned, like a lot of kids take piano. My parents never had to tell me to practice the piano. When I took lessons for years and years, it was like I would do the successful thing at school and then I would come home and I would practice my piano because I knew that's how I would be successful and just like, just stay the course, you just do the thing. And like the rules were clear. It was a good way to like check out, tell me something Absolutely. And the other interesting thing-.
Speaker 1:Autopilot for you was just rule following and then escaping when it felt too too much.
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure, and my threshold for too much is higher than a lot of people's. I will try real hard before I bail. But school, so like the academic part, check, I got involved in everything, which is funny because I still don't feel like I had much of a social life, even though I was in track cross country band, jazz band, choir, competitive speech, national honor society, student council like the resume was crazy. I was in everything and being in a small school was a blessing and a curse because it allowed me to do all of the things. It was like, oh, you have play practice from four to five, oh, great, we'll just do practice for music after that. And like everybody was willing to work with everybody's schedule so I could just pack it Crazy, crazy full.
Speaker 2:And I got so much praise for all of this stuff because I could work hard, was good at it and you know, like my parents would show up, my grandparents would show up, people at school would show up and it was like not like I felt like their praise was necessarily important. But it really felt good to be, to feel like I was being successful, but underneath that was driven by. I never felt good enough. I had to look good, because I wasn't actually good.
Speaker 2:So, I was in all this stuff but kept home and all this other stuff separate, didn't invite friends home. I didn't want that collision of stuff kind of around the same middle school, early high school time my brother was getting in a lot of trouble. So I'm an older brother and that was really impactful on me, just like the relationship between him and my parents was rough and he was doing some things, getting kicked out of Union and like just it was just a really hard time for me as a kid like watching all this happen. What's your brother's name? Wayne?
Speaker 1:I'm trying to think did I go to school with him?
Speaker 2:He would have been there in 2004.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure, we went to school together. It's probably in a yearbook down here.
Speaker 2:Do you know Justin Whitey?
Speaker 1:Sounds familiar.
Speaker 2:He lasted longer, but he was like good friends with my brother. It's good friends.
Speaker 1:So during this time, God is who?
Speaker 2:So during this time I'm so focused on all this other stuff but I'm like, oh, gotta maintain the spiritual life. That's my responsibility. Gotta be on top of that too. And so I would go to church because I was supposed to and I would lead music because I was supposed to and God was someone I should pursue. I think it's the best way to put it. I read my Bible through often, like I would do the yearly reading plans as a high school student, and like, read it through in a year and, man, I remember getting behind. And so, like Saturday afternoon I would have to read like 20 chapters, sometimes get caught back up.
Speaker 1:Was God happy with you? Did you consider his pleasure with you?
Speaker 2:I don't think I was ever focused on that. Like in the background, I was trying to be successful, trying to get the accolades. But I think it was that lie that I mentioned at the beginning of like nobody's listening, like nobody cares, and so I have to seek God because God is not seeking me. I was also super into the purity culture movement back then, and so you kissed dating. Goodbye that book. I did, yeah.
Speaker 1:It wasn't that one specifically.
Speaker 2:It was Eric and Leslie Ludi, and I can't remember the name of their book series, but they had several of them Same thing and I was super into that and I was super into that. I was super into that and I was super into that and I had somebody in my life of whom I valued their opinion a lot. Be like, oh, that doesn't seem healthy, but they said it not from a way. It was like from a personal experience, way of kind of being, like it felt like they were like pushing me to like do the opposite, like be physical, date, whatever. It was weird. It was weird and that walked into my life between my sophomore and junior year of high school. And this is like a crazy shift in my life Because I started dating this guy and I will share his name because he's fairly anonymous other than this His name is Brian and I started dating this guy and and all of this stuff, all this purity culture stuff, faded so quick once I got into a relationship as a junior in high school.
Speaker 1:Purity culture is real easy when you're single, huh.
Speaker 2:For sure, for sure. And it was interesting for me at a personal level because this guy he was not a rule follower, he was not a people pleaser, he was not trying to excel. He had gone to my high school and had graduated and he moved away. So he lived like two hours away from me, went to college at St Cloud State, and so it was like our life was super separate. But it was like the high school look him on the phone with you all the time and like people in my high school class were so glad when I started dating this guy because they were like you actually talk now, like you actually have a personality, like I was so shut down before, like just tell me the rules of all of them. And when I started dating this guy who was very opposite of me, it maybe was good for me in that respect because I was like just a little more like, oh please, I have options besides following the rule, and so I don't know how tons of much I want to share about this part of my life. But dating this guy older than me, a lot of things happened that shouldn't have happened and I had convinced myself in my mind like well, but I'm going to marry this guy anyway, so it's fine, and so purity culture in the trash, all this other stuff.
Speaker 2:2008, I graduate from high school and I follow him to St Cloud State because, a I didn't know what I wanted to do, b I knew I had to get out of the house and, c my mom and dad were like you have got to go to college and I applied at Union. My mom really wanted me to go there. She had gone there, I just wasn't. I didn't want to move that far away from home and also my boyfriend wasn't there. So I go to St Cloud State. I feel like at this point too, I'm kind of leaving this legalistic view of God kind of in the rear view as a bit of a self-preservation measure, because now I'm so invested in this relationship that it has to work and so God has to fit into this box to make it work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the legalistic view of God is that, like you have an angel following you around writing down all the things that you've done wrong and you've got to say you're sorry and confess to him and repent. When the relationship took over and you maybe made decisions that you wouldn't have made before, how did like? Was that just a way of being able to live, like, if I believe what I used to believe? That's going to be tough for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like there was some of that Like it just didn't fit, but it also didn't. It didn't take on a merciful view either, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:What do you mean? A merciful view?
Speaker 2:Like I think in the moments that I stopped to ponder God, like I remember a few really moving experiences like at camp meetings and stuff like that, where they would do like communion with us youth and stuff, and I would just be like following my eyes out, confessing things and talking about my life. And you know, I'm going to draw closer to God now. This is, this is my chance. But it was still like I realized in those moments like God had mercy and wanted a relationship with me, but then, as soon as I went back to real life, I had no idea how to apply that and carry that with me.
Speaker 1:Yeah it's. You get there and it's like try harder, be convicted that what you were doing is wrong, but then there's no answer for it outside of trying harder, and then I guess it's relationship, the pump relationship, and so you start reading your Bible, but when you don't understand it, or it's boring, and then that'll last a couple of days, and then you're back in the hamster wheel of whatever you were doing right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like this view. It's interesting because it's like other relationships would impact my view of God, but then my view of God would also impact my view of other relationships.
Speaker 2:So like I had to work hard for God's approval, I had to work hard to get noticed and so like that's how what I took into my dating relationship, too, was like I had to put forth this effort, I had to keep it going. It's super unhealthy and when I started college there, things quickly turned into a dumpster fire, like this guy whom I had been dating for two years at this point, had literally been living a double life, like he had separate Facebooks for all of his college friends and like then my corner, and he was like addicted to gambling, drinking like crazy, out partying with the peeps sleeping around. It was a complete nightmare and I was sowing deception and denial. I was like I have to make this work. How can I turn this guy around?
Speaker 1:How soon did you find out? Like did you just get there and like the gambling or the sleeping around was just made very obvious.
Speaker 2:In hindsight, yeah, it was made very obvious, but in short sight it lasted about a semester of me just like putting the blinders on and being like, oh, he has a roommate. All of this alcohol in here is clearly his roommates, because, as far as I was concerned, he didn't drink but he didn't eat pork.
Speaker 1:He didn't, you know, he he checked out the box, he didn't eat pork. You thought he was like a, like a.
Speaker 2:Yeah, an activist, or I didn't inform him of the truth and he was on board. Oh, ok, that is what I believed and just like crazy. So it's like this semester of up and down and crazy making I will call it. And then it was like Christmas break is when we started the whole like breakup, get back together cycle and we did this up and down, and up and down, and up and down until May. And in May he moved in to an apartment with a girl. I was like dang, that's weird.
Speaker 2:And this girl was engaged to one of his other friends and at some point she was like, hey, let's go hang out. And I was like, oh, ok, and praise the Lord, praise the Lord for this lady. Because she was like, why are you even dating this? And was like, how long have you been dating? And like started asking me questions and she's like, oh, he's been doing X, y and Z the whole time. I've known him for the last two and a half years and I was like I couldn't ignore it, like I could no longer ignore it when this. And I was like, yeah, but he's different now. And she's like, no, he had a girl at the apartment yesterday and I was like it was just like the biggest nightmare, and I remember it was like two weeks before this, I went to Perkins and St Cloud of my parents and, as a last attempt to control the situation, I told my dad I think I'm going to move in with him and my dad who I can count on one hand the number of times he's ever given me serious advice in my life, and so when he gives me advice, I listen I told my dad this and he was like I don't think that's a good idea.
Speaker 2:And I was like OK, and so like, fast forward two weeks. I'm having a conversation with this girl and I'm like my dad is right, this is not a good idea. And so I broke up with this guy in late May 2009 and my life blows up, totally blows up, because my identity has been wrapped up in this. You're like 19 years old, I'm 19 years old, not even I'm 18. Am I 19? No, I'm 19. You're right, I'm 19. And I was he?
Speaker 1:did he take it hard, or was he just like, ok, oh no?
Speaker 2:No, no, no he. He was completely stringing me along the whole time, like I was just one of the girls you know and I was like the safety net. Yeah, so I break up with him and I stayed in St Cloud that summer and was like working at the college during some advising stuff, and so naturally I started dating three guys at the same time.
Speaker 1:Naturally, as you do. You're a heartbreaking nightmare.
Speaker 2:But, to be fair, it was also my strategy to eat because I did not make a lot of money and I was a college student and said as nicely as possible, guys are suckers, and so who's buying me dinner tonight? You know what I'm saying. And so there was like this really unhealthy relationship mentality what can I get from you? Because you have nothing to give me. Clearly, and the three guys knew about each other. I wasn't going to do them dirty. I told them each other. But this is not a good strategy. I don't recommend it to anyone.
Speaker 1:OK, so if you're listening, jot that down. After a devastating breakup to then start staying three guys so that you can eat, not the move.
Speaker 2:It's not. It's not the move. Just eat ramen, it's fine. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's a lot less drama and heartache. So the fall comes and I leave the country. I go study abroad. And this is cool because this were a big, big place where God shows up, where I was like, look God, I have made a mess of my life. And there was also bitterness mixed in with this, because I was involved in the purity movement and I started dating this guy. And why, all of a sudden, did everything blow up in my face? God, this is your fault. That was like my attitude. I have been faithful and you have not. And what a not, what a not good place to be.
Speaker 2:And I think when I left the country, I was like, ok, I am going to be a good person and I'm going to listen to God's voice and I have had a relationship with God in the past. And so like, let's find that. And I also still carried with me some of the like well, I should be going to church on Sabbath and I shouldn't be drinking, and like, some of that was still sticking. And so the beginning of me studying abroad it was crazy. I went to South Korea and I did not even know how to say hello in Korean. When I was, I was reading a how to speak Korean book on the plane on the way over there, like.
Speaker 2:Which was terrible. How was that? So this is the day before smartphones. Okay, I was still in the flip phone era and I was reading this book and I was like I don't know how to pronounce any of this, none of this, and I really needed a smartphone. So I had some audio.
Speaker 1:How do you say hello in Korean?
Speaker 2:I'm young.
Speaker 1:I'm young. Yeah, I've heard that from Korean shows that my parents watch. Yeah. So on the way there, you're like I'm young, but you see it spelled, you can't say it Exactly.
Speaker 2:Exactly Like the. They call it. The Romanization, like the translation from the Korean letters to the English letters like makes no sense, like it does not help me pronounce things, until I like spent a semester learning Korean and and then I'm like, oh yeah, I can like read the English word and know how, there, you should pronounce it in Korean. I still wouldn't know that if I hadn't actually learned what Korean letters sound like.
Speaker 1:It's a hard language if we're being fair.
Speaker 2:It's very different than English, for sure.
Speaker 1:Mercy, so you were there for a year.
Speaker 2:A semester.
Speaker 1:OK.
Speaker 2:But I was totally out of my element there, which was really positive, and I felt really safe on campus. It was like in a small town of 250,000 people. It was like on the outskirts of this and like I would just like take my guitar and go play outside at night in the dark and I would never do that in St Cloud sketchy, you know, but like Like a hit by a hockey player in St Cloud.
Speaker 1:You got oh show yeah.
Speaker 2:So I would just like go and purposely spend time with God outside, and I also tried to connect with a couple Adventist churches early on when I was there. But like the Adventist churches were 100 percent Korean speaking and the people trying to take me were also 100 percent Korean speaking, and so me the first month I was there was like I don't know how to say anything to you, and so I kind of gave that up because I was like this is crazy.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I also went to a Christian university there, interestingly enough. So, like the, the public private system is very different there than in the United States, and so it was a public university, but it was Christian is the best way to explain it. And so, like I would go to Sunday church with my friends there because they had to go to get their required worship credits.
Speaker 1:Did they speak English?
Speaker 2:at church. No, it was all in Korean, but like I would recognize some of the songs, like some of the worship songs they would sing were like Ones that I would recognize.
Speaker 2:the tune like mighty to save and like Korean yeah exactly, but it was like a really good opportunity for me to practice Korean, because I was like, well, I know the song and how it sits and you have the words on the screen in Korean, and so then I'd be like trying to sing along in Korean and it was like really good practice. Even though I wasn't, you know, positive, it was like still a worshipful experience, and so it's cool. Cool.
Speaker 2:And like funny, funny enough, I still the Bible I use and still like a Korean English Bible and so it's funny because, like going to church, like there's words that are said a lot like Jesus and God and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:And so like Jesus in Korean Um Caristo. Oh, like Christ.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um. So like there's some of those things and it's funny because, like, when you learn to read Korean, korean is like um, it's letters, and then they build all the letters together into syllables and usually it's three all loop together. But when you get towards, like Caristo, it's like spelled out in what's called conglish, that it's just like you can tell this wasn't a real Korean word and we just turned it into a Korean word because to make the syllables fit.
Speaker 1:Um, like, like Spanish Dodgers in Spanish is Dodgers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's. It's very much like this, like same with pizza Like we couldn't translate it. There was no equivalent Um, but like God, there was. Like Hananim is like an actual Korean word, um. But I like learned some of these words from going to church because I'm like please sing that a lot.
Speaker 2:Oh, he's saying that a lot, so that's kind of cool, that is cool, um, but it was a good like, it was a good reset for me. Um, there was this one time I think it was like the first week I was there that the rest of the it was before the Korean students even arrived like just the American students were there doing orientation and I was like Friday night and all of my cohort was like going out to the bar and I was like, oh, I just, I just can't. I just can't do that. I'm not about the peer pressure life and it's Friday night. I feel like I need to go spend some time with God. So I grabbed my guitar and I go to this really cool amphitheater on campus that overlooks a lake and the lake is gorgeous. But the Koreans told us don't swim in it, you'll get AIDS. And I was like what? I don't even think you understand what that means.
Speaker 1:So I'm not swimming in it, but I don't understand. That's not possible.
Speaker 2:But right, right, um, so it it was beautiful, but not very clean. Um, but I'm like, sitting here overlooking this lake, it's beautiful, I'm playing some worship songs, just chilling, and this family comes and sets up a picnic at the bottom and they have these two super cute little kids. And, okay, I'm naturally kind of like brownish blonde. I have my hair dyed like bleach blonde, which is really you really stand out in Korea, and, um, so these kids are just like playing over at their picnic and they get a little closer, and they get a little closer and they get a little closer and pretty soon they are like touching my hair and my guitar, like kids do no boundaries, and it was a little weird. Um, but also I was like, and this family like, they speak no English, I speak no Korean, they invite me to their picnic and I was like this is so sweet and I prayed like dear God, I'm terrified of Korean food.
Speaker 2:I've only been here four days and I can tell you it's spicy and there's always meat and I don't know how to deal. You know, like I didn't when I got there and I learned by the end that you just eat the kimchi. Okay, you tell him you like it and, to be fair, I do like it much better now, but it was weird at the beginning. I'm like I don't know what this is. Um, yeah, when I went over there, I didn't even know what kimchi was. That's how ignorant I was. Um crazy, anyway.
Speaker 2:So I have this picnic with them and then they're like encouraging me to play some more music for them, and the crazy thing about this picnic is is there's no meat and I can actually eat it. It's not ridiculously spicy, and I was like that's weird. And so they encouraged me I start playing guitar and I was like trying to think of something they would know, and so I kept like trying different songs and I finally picked Amazing Grace. And I start playing Amazing Grace and they get so excited and start singing along in Korean and I just like started crying. I was like okay, god, I'm yours, I'll listen. Like you sent this family here for a reason tonight and I accept. Um, so that's one of those cool times that God shows up in one of the crappiest times of my life, where I'm having this like quarter life crisis and like who am I? And he's like it doesn't matter, I have Amazing Grace.
Speaker 2:That's also yeah, so, anyway, I, I live my semester abroad. Um, mostly, mostly, it's great Midlife crisis kind of continues. I go back to St Claude State in spring of 2010. And one of those guys that I was dating the previous summer well, one of them asks me to be his girlfriend and I break up with him. Awkward, yeah, weird. In I have been talking to him while I'm abroad and like, awkward, and then the other guy has a very different strategy. The other guy, one of the other guys, while I was gone, has started attending my local Adventist church and has made friends with most of my friends, and so when I come back, it's really hard to not engage with this person because he's everywhere. Um, and I think this is a dangerous thing a little bit, because sometimes we're like, oh, he really, he really like tried to like the things you did and involved himself in your like, how romantic. Um, and there's a line between romantic and soccer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Um delicate, delicate.
Speaker 2:And I didn't realize this. Um, all I realized was it was really hard to now live my life. He got a lock of my hair.
Speaker 1:How sweet he made a little doll out of me.
Speaker 2:And it like it was crazy. Um, because even like walking into this and him being like, oh, everything is fine, I've been this super saint while you're gone, I find out before we even officially start dating. Like he was sleeping around while I was gone too and I'm like good grief, dude, like, why do I like? Why do I even take the bait on any of this stuff? But I do. Um, so he's not being honest from the jump. Same.
Speaker 2:As you know, the last guy, Um, and I used to tell this story very differently. I used to tell the story about these two crazy relationships that I had that these guys were bad humans, and I don't believe that anymore. I believe these humans are humans living in intense deception and I pray that they can get out of that because life will be so much better. On the other side, because they didn't do those things to me it had nothing to do with me ever, like it was just how they were living their lives and I was a casualty of it. Um, but like trigger alert, the next section of the story gets much worse, much, much worse, before it gets better.
Speaker 2:Um, so this guy starts to be the hero. Um, example one it's really icy. Um, we both go to church. I pull into church and as I'm pulling in the approach, I like slide off the road. The person who had gotten there before me had done the same thing and had just gotten pulled out of the ditch, and so I am like, oh crap, the next person who comes is going to nail me too. Who's the next person that comes? This guy, he nailed me with his shuck.
Speaker 2:Okay whatever, um, except he's like oh, no, no, I did the damage and so I am going to drive you around town. And I was like I don't need to go anywhere. And he's like, no, no, where do you need to go, I'll take you anywhere. And proceeds to like drive me around for the next two weeks, also wants to do the body work on my car, so it takes longer, so he has to drive me around longer, but he's the hero because he's helping. Um.
Speaker 2:There's a book called the gift of fear that, if anybody wants to read this, I read this as part of counseling many years later and I was like, oh, my goodness, like these things that this guy did felt a little weird because they were stalker, yeah, like um.
Speaker 2:So anyway, that book changed my life because it opened me up to realize this really could have been so much worse, because these are behaviors of like dangerous people, um, and and thankfully my story doesn't end as dangerously as it could have but crazy Um, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then there was like there's other examples of being the hero, but we will, we will expedite this, and by this point in my life, one of those coping mechanisms that I have developed is you ignore what is in front of you. You have to survive, so you ignore it Like um and I say this with emotion because there's a few examples that I don't feel like I can share on the interwebs Um, that I'm just like this was blatant and I knew it was crap and I went with it and it took me a long time to find in my mind why I did that. And like, release God of accountability when I was like I'm sorry, god, that was a survival mechanism that I had to use and that, like I legitimately believe it was the best tool I had in some of those really crappy situations that I'm like I couldn't get out.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we were talking about that. In order to survive, you had to ignore what was in front of you. What was the survival? Was it just? What was the lie that was keeping you in like, oh, blinders on Um, Are you trying to say it without saying like? Yeah hurting somebody. Can you say I am all the way.
Speaker 2:I think there's a couple components, but, um, like for one of them, like at this point in my life, uh, it was. I don't know if it was a lie, so much as safety. Hmm.
Speaker 2:Um, because I think I knew in the back of my head that his behavior was not healthy, or safe, so that safety would come by not triggering this person. Yeah, and so it was like an extreme form of gotta smooth it over, keep the peace, control the room at the expense of myself and, like also in some of the earlier situations in my life, like, um, you can't get out, so what's the point of going with it anyway? Hmm.
Speaker 2:And maybe that's why I'm a little more contrary and now in my life, because I wasn't. I didn't feel like I was allowed to be in my earlier life, not like I had to keep the peace so much, so like you weren't going to know who I was. It was a wall I hid behind.
Speaker 1:So you're a little more contrary now, because you actually have safety. Yeah, hmm, that's awesome. So you're dealing with all of this. What happens? What happens next?
Speaker 2:So I'm going to fast forward a little to summer 2011. This guy that I'm dating has um, I have no idea why, Do not remember why, but he didn't have his own computer, electronic devices, whatever. Again, still no smartphones in our lives. And so he starts borrowing my computer and we're taking summer school. You know where this is headed.
Speaker 1:Why are all these viruses on my computer? I have no idea.
Speaker 2:It's like you were there. So he starts borrowing my computer in the evenings to complete his schoolwork.
Speaker 1:And when you put quotes around it, that's what he said. That's not schoolwork.
Speaker 2:I. This goes on for several weeks and then, for some reason, I look up my internet history and I was like I don't lie, what the heck? And there was always a reason. Oh, I left it in the living room and my roommate must have done it.
Speaker 1:Fair enough.
Speaker 2:Okay, don't let your roommate use my computer. Um, this happens. We fight, blah, blah, blah. For a while until I'm friendly, like, okay, whatever, I will solve the problem. You just don't get to borrow my computer anymore. You can use the school computers, because this doesn't happen when the computer sees at my house. And so this is like one of those big examples of me completely calling out his garbage and him completely confessing nothing, nothing. And like I am not an idiot, I understand what's going on, but I just can't make myself get out of this, even though there's like a monkey waving a big red flag, you know.
Speaker 1:It's not in your best interest at that time for you to actually see it in your opinion Like you're like, I don't want to actually know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, I think it was that. And the crazy part of this is like people from the outside who talked, okay. So a lot of like my church people that I went to were like oh, he's so good to you, oh, he loves you so much, and meanwhile the relationship is horrible the whole time. Apple so dysfunctional, like just insane, like things that should be sweet were not like oh, he would walk every day from his apartment to mine to escort me to my class, okay, and then he would be there to meet me after class and I tutored in the tutor lab. And he would sit in the tutor lab while I was tutoring and I'm like do you not do anything for yourself? You just literally escort me around.
Speaker 2:It's not like oh, you're cute, let me walk you to class. It was every day, and so it was like stuff that from the outside, people would like tell me was super cute and lovey. And I was like, oh, I should believe this, it looks good. Which is crazy, because later two of my best friends from college, when I finally broke up with this dude, were like how do you know? I was awful. And I was like can nobody else talk?
Speaker 1:Would you have been able to hear them?
Speaker 2:And that's the thing I was I listening? I don't know that I was listening because it felt like survival, to stay Right, and I was very used to that feeling and so, unless the ship was not only on fire but also sinking, I just couldn't get out without felt. And this goes on a long time. So I date this dude until fast forward to spring 2013. So I've been with him off and on 2019, 2009, 2010. And then 11 to 13 was probably more solid, and during this time I've been like up and down depressed, suicidal, like mentally not in a good place at all, because I'm completely living with these survival mechanisms and living this lie of like my life looks good, so I got to keep it up, even though I'm miserable. Miserable is like not even a good word.
Speaker 1:It's when you, when you, were considering hurting yourself. The main reason was because then you wouldn't have to deal with what's going on in your life.
Speaker 2:For sure it would be a way out. Where is that?
Speaker 2:So Spring 2013,. This guy gets arrested. And it's weird because, you know, he's escorting me to class, he's everywhere all the time and I'm like what is like? Why isn't he answering his phone? What's going on? And it's like, you know, late that evening or something, that he finally contacts me, and I think it was a Facebook message. I was like what in the world? So like, again, still no smartphone in my life. And so I'm like on my computer and see this message and I'm like what in the world? And it was like hey, we need to talk. I'm like where are you? Why don't you just call me? And he's like I'm at the library, meet me here. What in the world?
Speaker 2:And this is when the ship is definitely on fire and sinking and I'm getting the lifeboat ready, but not for just me. Okay, like I'm taking him with me and he, uh he tells me a story and to this day, I don't know how honest any of this is, because of valid reasons that I feel like I've already touched on. Um, but he said that the cops had arrived at his house that morning and they had confiscated all electronics in the apartment and that someone in the apartment was being accused of, uh, doing something with children on I w w w dot, I shouldn't be herecom and that he seemed to have been framed, but all his roommates got all their stuff back but he didn't, and he was released from holding. But um, there were some things going on.
Speaker 1:That's all he's saying, that somebody put some some kid stuff on his computer. Not that he was doing the stuff, but somebody put the stuff on the computer was okay.
Speaker 2:That it was on there.
Speaker 1:Right Jared Fogle type stuff.
Speaker 2:And, uh, we had some really good friends um drive down from Brainerd and spend the next evening with us, because it was like a really emotional, crazy time, Just like what's going to happen. I remember, see, this is a point where I'm like certain to be like you haven't been honest with me and what is going on Like this is a big deal and the crazy thing about all of this. So I don't know a lot, right Cause he wasn't super honest, but it starts like kind of dissipating over time. So like they have compensated, all the things, launched the investigation, but he's released and, um, things are quiet for a while. We had a friend who um recommended he get a really good lawyer, and so I remember going to Minneapolis with him to a lawyer who specialized in that, and we met with the lawyers together and then one of the shaking things was the lawyers made me step out and they're like we need to talk to you, she needs to leave, and I was like, excuse me, and that was another one of those moments where I was like I hold no weight here and I don't remember quite what time of year that was, but it was cold or snow on the ground in Minneapolis and I remember sitting outside and like that's pretty low, Um, and again things just kind of dissipate.
Speaker 2:But I remember calling the friend who had given him that advice to get a good lawyer. I called that. I called him. I was like I think I can do this anymore, Like he's not honest and I don't know the truth and I don't think he'll tell it to me. And I had. Well, I appreciate this advice and this human.
Speaker 2:Um, it doesn't work out that great immediately, Um, I had accepted a job at North Star camp for the summer and this person is like hey, look, you're going to be tied up at camp for the summer. Why don't you just like use that as a good relationship break and you use that time to think and evaluate and, in the fall, you you can make a better decision after you've had some space. It's good advice. I appreciate him being like you've been in a relationship for four years, Don't make any rash decisions. But also me not being honest with him and telling him this has been crap since the inception, you know, Um, and so I leave for North Star camp and I'm old at this point.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm 23. I've been in college a long time, not because I'm failing anything, but because I don't know what I want to do. I'm finishing my major and I'm taking classes like crazy. So I'm 23 when I start working at North Star camp the oldest by far and so I feel like I stick out like a sore thumb. I'm more mature and more serious.
Speaker 1:What position were you? Were you like girls director or something like that?
Speaker 2:So it's I had no camp experience, was the thing, and so I can't be a director of any.
Speaker 1:How did you, how did you get to work at North Star?
Speaker 2:So, um, I have good friends, jamie and Colton Wethrow, who had worked there for years and years and years, and they put in a good word with the director for me, like, hey, you should hire this girl. She's cool and it's funny because I had applied before and never got in the time of day because I felt like it was like I didn't know anybody and I went to a public university so they don't want me. And also, frankly, I make way less money working at camp because people who at least go to Adventist universities get like the matching whatever, and so I'm getting paid Like I could. Previous, I had been like working as a janitor and making more, or working, uh, working for my dad on the farm, like I could make way more money. Like, literally in between camp and school, I went home, worked for him for two weeks and made like what I did the whole summer in Orser. So it was like also an argument of like I'm a starving college student, I need money.
Speaker 2:And this was like a year where I was like no, no, I really want this experience and it's like the it was. I knew it was going to be the last summer of my college experience because I was graduating in December 2013. And so I was like this, is it after I get a job in the real world? I'm not coming back to this. And so, like, snagged the school position and they, um, jeff hired me to be the climbing director and counselor or something. And it was hilarious Cause I got there, helped set up the climbing wall, and then he's like, oh you like horses, we'll just touch you with the barn. And so I ended up counseling and working at the barn, which was great, um, also really hard on my back, but that's neither here nor there.
Speaker 2:Right, um, that's a part of the story that doesn't get emphasis in the podcast. Uh, so I'm working at camp this guy that I'm really trying to break up with at this point, honestly, and I had said, hey, I'm going to camp, this is a great time, um, I won't have time, like, we're just going to take a break over the summer, reevaluate in the fall. It was a hard conversation. Um, he doesn't listen. Okay, we know this. This is the pattern. Um, I don't want to hang out with you turns into make friends with all the friends, et cetera. So he starts showing up at camp while I'm working there and he offers to help out with things, but I certainly didn't have the boundaries and I didn't have the mental wherewithal to like tell the camp director, I don't want this guy being here. He shouldn't be here.
Speaker 1:There's like a guilty feeling, probably right. Uh, guilty about in what, like I would imagine that you feel guilty that you don't want him to be there. Yeah, like if you ever like been with you're describing this been with somebody and you know you don't want to be with them, but you haven't broken up with them. So when you feel bad about it, you also feel bad, that you feel bad about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because, like, remember, I'm the one who's supposed to make it happen, and so now he's trying to make it happen and I should really accept this gift because he really wants to hang on to it. Yeah, so there's like some, some guilt there. Um, that's like I've positioned myself. The enemy has positioned me in a way of just like you should want this, why aren't you accepting this? And, um, the summer was super tough.
Speaker 2:I like had conversations with this guy on the phone too, and I remember just like being so emotionally bothered like my counseling girls director would like have to give me an hour off and I'd be like I just am sick of dealing with this dude. Like he's calling me, telling me it's supposed to be a benign catch up, whatever, but then it's just like, oh yeah, I bought a computer and I'm like, oh, I know where this heads, and like just stuff that it's like me still focusing on the behavior and not the heart and also not getting myself out of this. Um, but a good thing about summer 2013 is I meet Brent Lernit, my now husband, and this is a crazy experience where God shows up because I had had this horrible conversation with this dude. I'm in tears and I it's wreck time. They're like playing, capture the flag out on the field and I walk out there just like I got to reset, gonna go play with the kids, it's going to be good.
Speaker 2:And I see this guy, brent, and I hear the Holy Spirit. I didn't know it at the time, but it's the Holy Spirit and he was like you're going to marry that guy someday? Oh wow. And I was like what? I've only talked to that guy twice Like he works with the boats. I don't even like boats.
Speaker 1:I can't marry him. I don't like boats.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, and so I hear this voice and it's so precipitous because it's like like I'm in this rough time of how do I get out of this awful relationship and God is like let me give you a glimpse ahead in the story and I can't say it gets better yet. Um, brent got really sick and was in the hospital that summer and I remember like going to visit him and felt like I should go visit him and like so I take a couple hours off camp on a Saturday, like drive in and visit him at the hospital and I just like remember crying and being like why do I even have this emotional connection to this dude? Like Brent is not an emotional dude and we haven't been connected.
Speaker 2:And I know, but like I had no idea, okay, there was like this bizarre connection even then, um, and yeah. So it was like a kind of a weird deal, but I like couldn't see beyond where I was at, um, every buddy and I'm not saying this to say that your story isn't original.
Speaker 1:But everybody knows the person that comes to camp that's dating somebody that's far away. And everybody at the camp knows that they shouldn't be dating that person, even if they've never met them, just because they seem much happier there without that person, for sure. And then they see like that little connection.
Speaker 2:But there was no connection like between me and Brent, like we literally didn't talk, and so nobody suspected it at all. There was none of that. And so, anyway, key of N's, I go back to St Claude State. I'm student teaching this fall. I'm living with this guy's sister who might have been dating for a while.
Speaker 2:And this is like, uh, this is a tough period where this guy who's been trying to be Mr Hero again all summer, showing up saying hey, um, he starts doing the up and down thing. Well, I don't know if I really want to be with you now, but forever, yeah, but not now. And I'm like what in the heck? I have been with you through so much garbage, I know. And like, like it gave me the clarity of mind almost. And I'm living with his sister and I'm pulling my eyes out one afternoon and she comes home and she's like dude, what's up? And like your brother is awful, here's what he's doing. And she was like, why are you even with him? Like he's my brother, so I'm kind of stuck with him, but you're not.
Speaker 2:And I was ready to hear that, okay, and I was like I'm not, I'm not, and um, I called him later that day and broke up with him.
Speaker 1:Praise. God.
Speaker 2:Praise the Lord, um it. When I called him, it was the shortest conversation of my life. It was a 30 second phone call. He was like, oh, okay, we hung up the phone. He was not like the first relationship where he was like, okay, whatever, thanks, this was crazy. Like he started that I don't think he took it seriously. When he was like, okay, you're sure we broke up. Like he started blowing up my phone, trying to find me at classes, super stock remote.
Speaker 2:Praise the Lord that I'm living with his sister right now, because I think it's the only reason he was not showing up at my house, because that would have been too embarrassing to like let his family know, like what was going on. And I finally was like, look, if you don't leave me alone, I am filing a restraining order and he's already in legal trouble right now, yeah. And so he's like, oh, shoot, I just can't. And so he leaves me alone for a blissful three weeks. And I remember driving. I was driving back to St Cloud from where I was student teaching, and he calls me and I was like I haven't heard from him in a while. Maybe I shouldn't answer this, but for some reason I answer it and he calls me and he's like, hey, I don't even remember exactly what he said, but basically the authorities have decided how they're going to pursue this case and they're going for it and his court date is blah, blah, blah. And I was like responding like oh, okay, and he's like very short whatever.
Speaker 2:And he's like all right, you're not going to show up, Are you not going to help? And I was like I was clear when I said we were broken up and I care about you as a human, but not as a friend. And he was like he didn't know how to take that and I just didn't take the bait and he hung up the phone and I could not, like I had had a period away from that at this point. That was super hard, but because I was addicted to it in a way, to be honest, I was addicted to the crazy and now that I had had a few weeks away from that, I've had the clarity of mind to be like I know what I said, I'm out. And that was tough. I didn't know how to deal with this, so I started drinking. Why does the story keep getting worse?
Speaker 1:I know will help this alcohol.
Speaker 2:I had mentioned before, alcoholism had been a problem in my family and it's not like isolated, like it's a long a generational thing, I feel in my soul, and so I thought I'd give it a go.
Speaker 1:And so.
Speaker 2:I started drinking. I started drinking a lot. I started dating this guy, so I graduated in December 2013. I moved out of his sister's house that had been Is this the last we hear of the dude? Almost.
Speaker 1:Okay, because I do want to find out what happens. Like is he in prison right now? Like I do want to know what happened with that guy, which brings me that I just this is an aside, I want to just say this to anybody who's listening this is my number one dating advice. I give this dating advice all the time and I feel like it's the most effective dating advice, and that is this breakup, like.
Speaker 2:I'm on TV right here, yeah.
Speaker 1:Break up if it's not going well right now, like y'all aren't married, it's like what? What? What the sister said, like marriage can be tough and it will be that much tougher if you're not getting along when you're not married. So, yes, there are probably, you know, some exceptions to that rule, but it is the rule. Breaking up is the move. Several people that I've said break up ended up getting married because it like they figured it out after they broke up Tyler and Morgan, one of them. Stuff will happen later in their relationship, but anyway, back to the story. Keep going, sorry about that.
Speaker 2:So I move out of his sister's house and I had just graduated, and so I'm like I have no plans. I cannot move back in with my parents because I know where that goes. And so I am so grateful that some friends of mine that I had met Alicia working at camp in summer 2023. She lives in West Minneapolis and she's like, hey, you could, I, you could. I don't know how this came about, but she offered for me to come live there with her and her mom, and so that's my plan I move into her house on New Year's Eve and I start living with them. I only live with them for a few months.
Speaker 2:This is, I think, the worst out of control period of my life. I start, this guy tries to follow into my life. He starts making friends with Alicia. He starts trying to go to churches in the area that he thinks I'm going to be at the really good friends that I have that I've been talking to to try to help me through this time. He he befriends them and to try to get them to talk to me, to get me back with him. Yeah, and I am not playing this game again. And so I start dating a guy who is a decent human, but totally all we do together is drink. Okay, but he buys my drinks. So again we have this pattern of but I get my stuff for free.
Speaker 2:And solid Such a bad plan, not advice. Okay, so I'm basically using this guy to get the other X guy off my back and it kind of works, but also not 100%.
Speaker 2:And also in this time I'm like I have got to get out of here. Why this guy keeps following me, how can I get out of here? And somewhere along the lines I figure out that he's like not supposed to leave the state or something because of the litigation stuff, and so I'm like I'm going to get out of state and so I backstreet. I love mountains. I grew up in the flatlands of Minnesota but me and my parents would go snowboarding and skiing in the mountains Montana, colorado, oregon, all that stuff unlike winter breaks when I was in college. And I was like you know what I got to get out of here? I'm just going to try to find a job somewhere along way away from here.
Speaker 2:So I started applying for teaching positions in Colorado, montana, wyoming, whatever, all the places with mountains and I get job interview and so in March I go out to Leadville, colorado. I interview for a middle school math position. They offer me the position the next day and accept it, and they're like how soon can you start? Do you want to come out now? And I was like, oh dang, I don't think I can like just move immediately, which maybe I could have to be honest, but I didn't want to.
Speaker 2:So I signed up to start teaching August 2014 in Leadville and like, very quickly, my life in Minneapolis is like like it's going okay with this guy, but it's not a relationship really, it's just chilling, whatever and I moved back in with my parents because now I'm like I have an end date and so I only lived at like Alicia's house for like I don't know three or four months and moved back to my parents. I start substitute teaching. I teach summer school in Breckenridge, minnesota still kind of dating this guy in Minneapolis. We're like back and forth, going to visit each other there's a Breckenridge Minnesota.
Speaker 1:Indeed, there is Yep, it's probably not like the ski resort town in Colorado.
Speaker 2:You take it down a few notches and yeah, yeah, but to be fair, the school district is lovely. I love the children of rural Minnesota. Like that's where I grew up. They're super chill culturally. I know how to handle them. I like I taught summer school there. Okay, so I have the kids who were not successful in real school and now let's give them to miss A and I had a lovely time with those kids. Okay, like I can, I can chill with them, but still, just like in this super rough, pivotal time of life.
Speaker 2:And I remember having a conversation with the guy that I'm dating at the time where he was like, oh well, but you'll go teach for a year in Colorado and then you'll come back. And I was like, oh, I don't know if I'm coming back, like you must understand. And we broke up very shortly thereafter, cause I was just like, well, I'm not doing the distance thing with you. Like I literally know that our connection is drinking and we just don't have that much in common and I don't want to live this life anymore. Like I'm not going to go into how dark that was, but like in AA they talk about alcoholism as a spiritual disease and I 100% believe that, like we're looking, like I'm looking for something, like I'm looking for drinking to erase something, to fill something, and it doesn't do that. It doesn't do it effectively, but it is addictive for some folks and yeah. So, anyway, I moved to Colorado. I'm super angry with God at this point. I am exploring other avenues Buddhism different gods.
Speaker 1:Okay, like for sure yeah.
Speaker 2:And all the things. They all are the same. Everybody is the same and like just so much bitterness. Like God, why did you lead me down this awful path? Why do I have so much pain and guilt in my life of, like you know, doing things with these guys that I shouldn't and then feeling shame about it and just like repeating these cycles over and over? On my way to Colorado, I volunteer at North Star Camp for a week and my dear friend Lindsay Parsons says lover hey, real lives in Colorado.
Speaker 2:You should talk to him. He doesn't live in Colorado, but I sit across from him at lunch and I'm like, hey, what's? He said you lived in Colorado. And he was like no, I actually live in Utah. And I was like, oh well, those are right next to each other. That's close, close ish. And I'm moving to Colorado not knowing a soul out there. And I was like, well, hey, I'm moving to Leadville. I don't know how far it is, but you should come snowboard with me. And he was like yeah, yeah, that's good. He didn't know where Leadville was, but he knew where Copper Mountain was. And he's like, hey, that sounds legit. So he says he'll come. We exchange phone numbers. He completely forgets about it.
Speaker 2:I moved to Leadville it's fine Knowing my husband. Now I'm like checks out, but I move there, I don't know anybody and I'm lonely. Yo like my. I get hooked up with a roommate in Leadville and she is not outdoorsy at all and like her idea of a hike is like a half a mile along the lake or something, and then let's go back and drink some hot cocoa. And I was like I mean, we're gonna hike. We might as well like hike all day right.
Speaker 1:You know like we're going to go to a 14er.
Speaker 2:For sure. And so I invited Brent out. Like I texted him like hey, I know Snow hasn't fallen yet, but you just want to come hang out. And he was like, oh yeah, sure. And so he starts oh, that's right.
Speaker 1:You see your text message.
Speaker 2:Oh, to be fair, I think he was in a really rough spot, just like he talked about in his podcast, like workaholic and stuff. And so when I'm like, hey, you want to come adventure? He was like, oh, it sounds like a good break from work, let's do it. And so he starts coming and he would sleep on the couch in our living room and it was hilarious because my roommate was like he's really weird, how do you know this guy? And I was like I've worked with him at JM, I don't know him that well.
Speaker 1:It's really sketchy. I'm not sure why I'm texting him.
Speaker 2:It's a little sketchy and I like obviously had remembered this pivotal 2013 moment about God saying I was going to marry this guy, but I was like, whatever, I'm not going to get that much.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to give it too much weight. And I was also like God, I am mad at you and I have to do this by myself and I have made really, really serious mistakes in past relationships and so if you want this to work out, you work it out. I'm not pursuing this guy, I just want a hiking buddy. But also, still, I'd be okay if something worked out Ridiculous.
Speaker 2:But Brent and I were like hanging out for weekends, I don't know a handful of times, and Brent was really hard to read. He was not like other guys, like he was not putting the moves on at all, he was not flirting at all, couldn't figure this dude out. And so I was like I guess totally in the friend box, like, okay, this cool. And so at the end of October I go to visit him. He lives near Moab, utah, and his parents were also working on the same campus as him at the time and it was really funny because we did all the things. He took me dirt biking, he took me rock climbing, we went hiking all the things. And his dad made a comment about like, oh well, she'll never have to come back because you already did all the things. And I was like oh awkward, okay, we a Sunday morning.
Speaker 1:Read the room. Dad, I'm trying to date this chick.
Speaker 2:But his dad didn't know either, because Brent can't read that guy. So we hike up Periott Mesa. That's like over a day's dark academy, and it's an aggressive hike. Okay, I'm into aggressive hiking, but there were like drop offs where you could die, and there were parts where I was not in super good shape at the time, like I could hike a lot, but that was it.
Speaker 2:And there were parts that were vertical where you'd have to like rock climb up sections, but without ropes, and I would be like I can't do it. And Brent would like hold my hand and just like pull me up like I was a child. And so I'm like we get to the top of this Mesa and my partner is like literally at one point I gave him my phone and I was like here's the code to unlock my phone. If I die, please call my mom and tell her. Oh my God, we get to the top of this Mesa and Brent asks me to be his girlfriend and I was like what I very much had myself in the friend box at this point. I didn't say that.
Speaker 3:What I really said was I'll have to think about it.
Speaker 1:It's like so you're telling me there's a chance.
Speaker 2:No, it was the most awkward hike down. It took us like two hours to hike down that thing and get back to the car.
Speaker 1:And I was like, will you help me here? And he doesn't reach down his hand to help. He's like good luck, I would have helped you.
Speaker 2:But I, like I was literally just like hey, you don't know me, you don't know what I've done in my life, you don't want me. Like I am not who you think I am. And I had this impression of him Like you are, mr Perfect, you have never done these stupid things in your lives and, to my knowledge, he had never dated anyone seriously in his life. And I'm like look, I am like on a super different page of bad girl. Okay, so if you knew me, you wouldn't want me. And I found in my car and I drove home and I got home at like I don't know 11pm or something, texted him on the way home. I had this come to Jesus moment where God was like don't you think he should decide that? And so I texted him and I was like hey, if the offer is still valid, I'm willing to accept.
Speaker 1:If the offer is still valid.
Speaker 2:I don't think I slept a wink last night, but he that night. But he texted me in the morning and was like, yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 1:Thumbs up.
Speaker 2:We had the most bizarre dating relationship compared to other relationships I'd been in. We were both working adults at this point and I was in a very different place and we didn't really talk that much Like we would just be like, hey, when are you coming out next? Great and like.
Speaker 1:So, like during the week, you talk like two or three times or less than that.
Speaker 2:Less than that. And then Thanksgiving we were like hey, you have a week off, I have a week off, let's road trip to Minnesota. So we started like doing these epic road trips together, right off the genre and spending lots of time together in that way. Yeah, like in between it wasn't a ton of talking. And somewhere in this year Brent is having a rough year and I have kind of decided like to come back to Christianity.
Speaker 2:I go to the church in Leadville at this point it's like a half a dozen people. It's lovely we show up Sabbath morning. It's like hey, cassie plays piano, she can lead some hymns. Hey, do you want to do offering? Call is super, my jam Super chill. Um, and just like these people loved me well and I'm grateful to have, like in college, to even amidst all this crazy, at St Cloud, my church in St Cloud, I had some people there who loved me so well and so that's like hard to walk away from. Like you can argue theology, what else? But if somebody loves well, like it speaks for itself. So Brent was having kind of a crisis and was just like I was able to share with him. Look, this is why I left. I explored some other avenues. This is why I came back and even living tree freedom, I was, like you know, speaking words of life in a way that I was like, wow, that's really cool.
Speaker 2:This school year, while Brent and I are dating and adventuring, I'm sick the whole time. So it's like I'm either adventuring with Brent working or puking my guts out. Like my doctor told me, you need to quit your job, it's way too stressful. And so spring 2015 comes, and actually I was. I was gonna quit my job in January, wasn't even gonna finish the first year, and my dear friend was like you can't quit your first teaching position. She talked me out of it. She met me at the coffee shop at 5 am to talk me out of resigning at 8 am. And I did write my resignation in February, effective for the next school year. But I was shopping for jobs and Brent and I had been dating I don't know six, seven months at this point and we had a very serious conversation and I was like, look, I've done this distance thing with the guys before, didn't work out well, they're all liars, basically. And so if you wanna be serious, we need to Be the same guy.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I was like, look, I need to move, I need to switch jobs. He was ready to have a change too. And so we he told me you pick a good school district that you wanna teach in, you figure that out and I'll move to where you are. So I do.
Speaker 2:I moved to Bailey, colorado. I accepted teaching position there, which is super cool, god shows up again. Like Bailey is a weird rural place, like an hour Southwest to Denver metro and there's nowhere to live out there. Like you can't rent things, there's just not much there. And so the school district seemed great. The pay was garbage, but it seemed like a really good fit for me. And one of the people in my interview committee reached out to me cause it had been like I don't know two weeks since they'd offered me the position and I was like I love it, but I think I have to turn it down cause I can't find a place to live. And I had been praying about this. Like God, I can't, I'm not commuting from Denver, that's insane. And so she reaches out and she's like oh well, I'll rent you a room. I was like what? And so that that prayer was answered.
Speaker 2:Brent has his own cool finding a place to live. Story on that same thing, where it's like I personally thought we were going to break up because he said he was moving there and it just wasn't, it wasn't happening. And he's like I'm trying to find a place to live, but I can't find a place and I'm like, well, I understand, but also, if God wants to work this out, he will. And so some church members at the church I had been going to for a couple of months, like Brent, reached out to the pastor and he like blasted the church and they're like, oh, we don't rent rooms to people, but we saw your request and we felt the Holy Spirit be like you need to rent to this guy. And so Brent finally moved there and I was like, oh okay, maybe this is actually a thing.
Speaker 1:Maybe the Holy Spirit was right. You know, back at North Star camp when they told me we were going to get married.
Speaker 2:I know right, super crazy. But also I was like thankful in some ways that I was not in that pushing spot anymore, or I was like gotta make it happen, gotta make it happen. So, yeah, I feel like a lot of the rest of the story about me and Brent is not that exciting. We got married in July 2016. I'm still teaching at the same school and Brent gets a call to interview for a camp director position and that felt like a run pull for me because it was at like I knew Brent had worked at North Star camp for many years, but this was the first time he told me hey, I know I'm an auto mechanic, but I really am passionate about camp ministry and if I ever have the opportunity to do that, I would. And so he gets asked to interview for this and I'm like I did not sign up to be married to somebody who works for the church. That's a different level and I was not on board. He says no, we pray about it. We talk about it. I pray about it okay, in quotes, but I hard no, not open to it.
Speaker 2:Salt 17,. We moved color of springs for me to go to graduate school. That was always a dream of mine. Our marriage was in a rough spot. So we've been married a year. We always joked about like, oh, people that can't hang curtains together because they can't get along. We're not. Life at our marriage is great. Like we were under deception for a bit that our marriage was great even though it was trash. We are both really financially tight and so we move to Colorado Springs and get a roommate to make ends meet because I don't make much money. I'm, I have a full ride to graduate school but, like you know, he doesn't make much, I don't make much.
Speaker 2:That was an awful situation to grad school. Academically it was mostly fine, but it was one of those things where, like, I was not as advertised and I really felt like God orchestrated me going there, me getting in the classes that were inspiring to me that I needed to have a jump, to change careers. I really liked teaching, but I was also I'm really high, strong and I missed the mental challenge. So I mean, like I taught everything from seventh grade math through BC calculus in three years of teaching and like, as soon as I've gone through it, the challenge is over and I just need that like mental grit to get through things more than just like I love the relationships with kids and stuff, but I just like wanted something a little more intellectual and so I was like I want to try to actuarial route. So that was like what graduate school was a great stepping point into and the department chair, who was like the advisor for graduate students, was awful.
Speaker 2:Like to this day I still feel like I need to write a report because there was harassment going on, there was discrimination against women going on. I would go to his office for help and he would literally tell me you're too stupid, I don't want to explain this to you. And then a male colleague would step in, ask the same question and get a brilliant answer and I'm like this is insane and like his behavior was so triggering. If you go and ratemyprofessorscom, you can look this guy up and some of the reviews are so very honest about that. None of them are mine, but I just I just like I remember sitting on my beautifully sunny front step in Monument, colorado, having the depressed and suicidal feelings that I had not felt since back in my undergrad when I was dating this guy, and I had this realization that I got out of that and I can get out of this, and that was like when I felt like God was starting to make me open to quitting school.
Speaker 2:And that was really hard because I am not a quitter and it still took me a minute to fully come to that. But I was taking a class from this person and I dropped the class the next day. It was like it's not worth my mental health. I can't do this. I don't know what that means for the rest of my graduate school, but I can't do this. And so I finished the year. I was taking actuarial exams.
Speaker 2:At this point I started applying for a job like crazy, because you don't need a graduate degree to be an actuary.
Speaker 2:It was just a good stepping point for me and, long story short, I didn't. This guy was also in charge of my funding for graduate school, and so he pulled my funding for the next year and I was like I'm not paying for this next year, the classes are not gonna help me get where I want to go, and so I didn't go back, which also meant I didn't have a job, because I was also teaching for the university as part of this whole thing, and so now I'm not in school, unemployed, can't seem to get a job, have sent out a hundred applications and nothing. And in the same time we go on vacation to Moab. We like to camp a lot then and we are in Moab in June, absolutely melting, and Bright gets a call to apply for this camp position again and I felt like that time he didn't ask my opinion as much. Our marriage was in a really bad spot and you guys just weren't getting along because of all the stress or just not getting along because you really did like trying to figure out marriage.
Speaker 1:I think we were both living in a lot of lies and I think we were both living in a lot of lies.
Speaker 2:I think we were both living in a lot of lies, and so that's like just a. It's just a recipe for disaster.
Speaker 1:Recipe for disaster.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and like the reason before that Brent had said no, I can't do the camp thing right now is because Cassie had already agreed to teach here this year. So we just can't operate our life. Well, cassie's not teaching anymore, she's not in graduate school anymore, she's got nothing going on, and so her opinion, whatever those opinions are no more. And so, anyway, he interviews and he accepts and he starts his gig in Wyoming. And our marriage gets worse. Our marriage gets way, way, way worse at this point because he's working for the church now. So he has great justification to be gone speaking at churches all the time on weekends. And oh, I'm new at the office gotta drive up to Denver every day to be in the office. So on a day when he's not working a lot, he's gone 13 hours and I'm unemployed right now. So I leave, I go to Minnesota to farm, for my dad isn't farming anymore at this point. His hired guy is farming. I go to Minnesota to farm for his hired guy. Meanwhile I'm still applying for jobs like crazy, because I'm like I know this isn't a destination really and I have a talk with God at this point and I'm like maybe you don't want me to switch careers, maybe teaching is where I belong. And so I was like I'm a I'm a fantastic teacher. And so I was like I know I can get baller recommendations. So I like reached out to the district I used to teach at and he wrote me an amazing recommendation. He's like I literally just filled a position this week Otherwise I would have given it to you and I got a teaching job, teaching at Eric Academy High School in North Colorado Springs. A teacher had quit very unexpectedly and they're like how soon can you be here? When can you start? And like they literally didn't even get off the phone. I like I told them I'm in Minnesota, I can't be in there in person to interview, but I'll do a remote interview. And they were like perfect, got it. And they offered me the position on the spot before we even hung up. And so I'm like okay, this is the next thing. So I book it back to Colorado, start teaching high school.
Speaker 2:The day I start actually teaching students in October of 2019, 2018, 2018, I get a request to interview for an actual, real position. And I felt pretty conflicted about this because I was like wait a minute, god. Like I thought you were turning the ship back to teaching and so like it was crazy interview for this actual real position, get the actual real position, and I'm like this is what I've been trying to do, though, and I am so grateful that God put me in that teaching position for a few months, because I did ultimately decide to leave, and I gave them two months notice and I said I'll get you to semester time, but this is really what I want to do, and they were very grateful for my time there, but it was such a healing time with the students, because I was in such a bad place, so depressed, so purposeless and like open to what God has for me, but also not hearing the life that he's speaking over me, and that was crazy. I start my actual position in January. Our marriage is like total trash, because now I'm commuting to Denver too, and we don't ride together most days. By the way, that's what I'm commuting for Colorado Springs to Denver on the road all the time, whatever.
Speaker 2:I finally, in March of 19, I told one of my best friends on this earth what was going on Like my marriage is at the bottom. This is awful. I'm emotionally out of control, don't know what to do with myself and she told me that she had gone to these meetings called Adult Children of Alcoholics and Disfunctional Families and I told her that I was going to be a good friend of the Disfunctional Families and that it had really helped her. And it kind of sounded like I was dealing with some of the same things and I was like that doesn't make sense. Like her dad was an alcoholic but he quit drinking before she was even born. So like how could she have these problems? And also I hadn't, like I had dealt with all these addicts and stuff, but like I don't live with them anymore. So like how could it possibly affect me? And she encouraged me to read those 14 traits of Adult Children of Alcoholics and see how many identified with. 13 of 14 were me.
Speaker 1:Solid amount yeah.
Speaker 2:And she's like, yeah, the first time I read this list I was like not everybody feels like this, and so she picked the healthiest person she could think of and asked them to read through the list and identify with them. And this girl's like maybe one. And I was like other people don't struggle with these things, and that's not to say other people don't, but it's like not everybody does, Like these are things that people rooted in.
Speaker 1:You can give me an example of one.
Speaker 2:Oh sure, here I got the list, yo. One of them is para-alcoholics are reactors rather than actors. Another one is we're addicted to excitement, me Like, if I'm not engaged in a crazy relationship, that's a little exciting. Then it's like addicted to adventure Gotta do the rock climbing, gotta do the hiking, gotta do the skiing, whatever the adrenaline sports. We became isolated and afraid of people and authority figures. We became approval seekers and lost our identity in the process. We were frightened by angry people and any personal criticism. We either became alcoholics, marry them or both, or find another compulsive personality, such as a workaholic, to fulfill our sick abandonment needs. We live life from the viewpoint of victims and we are attracted by the weaknesses and our love and friendship and relationships. Anyway, the list goes on.
Speaker 2:It's pretty depressing, but when I was ready to be honest with myself, I was like, dang, this is pretty close to home. And so I started going to ACA meetings in Colorado Springs and my group down there was amazing. But I also realized that there was like a lot more trauma in a lot of these experiences than I had really like that I could relate to. And so when we moved in 2019, so we bought a house in Denver and then we were back and forth between Denver and Wyoming but we were no longer tied to Colorado Springs. So when I moved I switched from the ACA fellowship into the Allen-On fellowship, which is like a more general approach to like people who have been impacted by somebody's addiction and that approach like fit me much better because it wasn't focused on like the trauma of childhood so much that some other folks in ACA experienced, but I found so much healing.
Speaker 2:I know that early in the love reality stuff and this was like something that was off putting to me. When I first got hooked up with love reality was like there was talk about like oh, 12 step programs, you don't need those. And I was like this is my lifeline and it's cool. So I still have a sponsor and I was talking with her the other day and it was really cool Cause I was like, hey, let me be honest, I haven't been working the 12 steps. I've just been taking all that time and I have been spending it with God instead. And she was like oh well, that's step 11. Like maintaining our conscious contact with the God of our understanding, the step 11. And she's like that's what the program is Like. The program quiets your behaviors in a way that you can finally listen to what God is telling you and doing in your life. Praise God.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, like God used that so so much to like make me willing to listen in ways that I hadn't been before, even when God is talking and showing up in my life all the time. Like I just had no capacity to listen and then I was just stuck in survival mode and could finally be like like God telling me it's time to listen, you're okay, like you're not in those situations anymore. What can you do? And like the one trade, I read that we are victims. We live life from a viewpoint of victims. So it's like I can't get out because I'm a victim. This is all done to me. I don't have the power to change my situation and sometimes I don't, but like I'm an adult now and I can make my own decisions and if my marriage is truly trash and I'm being abused, I should get out. But I'm not Okay, like different.
Speaker 2:So, february 2020, love reality comes to life. Source in West Denver, right there house. I'm super bitter about it because it's just another work thing that Brent wants to go to, to be honest, and I'm like we were gonna hang out Wednesday, but now you're going to this meeting, okay, whatever, and he's like you can come and I'm like, yeah, but thanks for inviting me to your work stuff. You know like not super into it, so I do come a few times. But you know, arms crossed, attitude of bitterness, but I heard some things there and praise God for the COVID lockdowns. Might offend a few people there, but hey love, reality went online. So I have just heard it in February 2020 at life source, kind of listening. I hear it again in like March 2020 after lockdowns and I was like, okay, I'm intrigued by what I heard. So I'm kind of introverted and if I'm going to go to a revival series every day, it's going to be when I don't have to put on real pants.
Speaker 1:I would like to go to a no pants revival meeting.
Speaker 2:Like.
Speaker 1:I don't have to leave my house.
Speaker 2:I don't have to cut dinner short. I can just chill on my couch and listen to what you have to say. But I also was like I'm not multi-tapping during the meetings. I'm going to listen. This is very hard for me, but I'm going to do it. And both times, back to back months, I hear and I'm going to take you there.
Speaker 2:I was in Romans five and it's this Adam, adam and Christ contrasted passage of Romans five that like it was the beginning of freedom for me and I was willing to listen. At this point, because of my experience, my Eleanor work and after February 2020, when Brent heard the message at LifeSource, like he started reacting and like like reacting differently to me and like I could tell. I couldn't put my finger on it, but I could tell that something was different. So I was definitely willing to listen and I was like I'm going to listen. So I was definitely willing to listen. And when I heard it's Romans five, 12 is where it starts.
Speaker 2:When Adam sin, sin entered the world. Adam sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned and then jumping down to 15, but there's a great difference between Adam's sin and God's gracious gift for the sin of this one man, adam, brought death to many, but even greater is God's wonderful grace and his gift forgiveness to many through this other man, jesus Christ. And then jumping down to 18, yes, adam's one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ's act of righteousness bring a right relationship with God and new life for everyone. And like I had never heard before that like I remember high school I've read the Bible through cover to cover multiple times, so I've read this, but I've never heard this that like sin had nothing to do with me and Christ's redemption really had nothing to do with me. And like I had grown up with this. Like your sin hung Jesus on the cross that's what I heard.
Speaker 2:And so, like all those sins that I had done, that I was holding against myself, like I was responsible and that is why I had to follow the law and control the environment around me, because it was up to me. And I heard such freedom in this that I was like, just like how alcoholism has impacted my family for generations, sin has impacted my family for generations and it has nothing to do with me or my parents or my grandparents or my great-great-grandparents. It came from before us, but it affects us. I participated in sin, because that is the lineage that has happened and Christ said no more, no more. And it's like, oh, like not to say I'm not responsible for what I've done, but like this whole capital S sin thing I was always struggling to buy into why am I such a bad person?
Speaker 2:Well, at the same time believing, I'm a bad person and I was like I don't have to live that way anymore and that, like guilt and shame that I carried, just like it evaporated and like sure, the enemy still kept trying to bring that back. Well, you did blah, blah, blah. Yeah, sure I did. Dead Cassie did do that. That's true. I think, after this 2020 pivotal moment, I did keep living in some of that like up and down, like struggling between what I've grown up with believing and what I'm trying to cling to in the new. Like going to church was super triggering for a while because I wouldn't go there and hear the gospel and I would just sit there and be angry because I was like Don't you see what it says?
Speaker 2:And over time, god has worked on me to be like, hey, that is what it says, but I wasn't ready to see it till I was ready to see it. And when they are ready to see it, they will see it, and I can be impatient with that, but God is patient and so he has given me that patience and so I can be patient with others. Another so like I know that I came to life in 2020 because by early 21, this was the first time Brent and I had really talked seriously about being parents and if we wanted to have a kid. And up until this point in my life, I was like, how long kids, like why do I want to bring kids into this? Like not just speaking from, like my marriage isn't good, but like like this whole world, this whole situation, like life isn't good and like the experience of that. It just like it was like finally put on our hearts that it was like children could on my heart, that children could be a good thing, and like there could be joy in that. And then, by summer 2021, I'm going to take you to Philippians next, because this is the other one that really smacked me in the face.
Speaker 2:I was on Bible study with Eddie on a Saturday morning and some of these things in my past, I realized I was still holding against these people and we were reading in Philippians 3, 12 to 14 is where it is, but verse 14, but 13 says forgetting the past and looking forward to what lies ahead. And this is, you know, a common verse. I'd heard hundreds of times probably and I didn't talk much on Bible studies, but I probably looked uncomfortable because Eddie says what are you thinking? And I was like I'm just supposed to forget the past? Just gone, just forgotten, and like this was another moment to me, I've like just let it go Like it had nothing to do with you.
Speaker 2:Couple months later my friends Matt might have visited and it was the most beautiful day at Noel Spring Ranch. It was like cold and it had like frosted, like the freezing frost all over the Aspen's and the Aspen's were still golden and it was just magic up there, still somewhat foggy. We walked down to the meadow with these friends of ours and Mida was sharing how she had come to peace with not being able to have kids and since the beginning of the year, like with us kind of wanting kids now and trying and it had having been a while and not conceiving, like her testimony to me was so big in so many ways. And after she left, I had a conversation with God and said I am okay with this. However, it turned out because I don't understand and that's okay, and we got pregnant with Travis that month and I was too late on that. Travis, unfortunately, was at her funeral, but I never got to tell her how much she inspired me and my faith.
Speaker 2:But I guess, just kind of to bring that home, like God is so good and has like shown up in so many ways and I used to remember, like when I first hooked up with love reality, there were so many of these stories that were instant, like I was three from X, y and Z, right away, and even after I experienced some of those layers of freedom, like I have so many walls built up to keep me safe throughout my life, that like the walls fell down in layers and I really believe that God did it in that way because he knew I could handle that, like what I was willing to let go, he was willing to not even take. God didn't take it, he threw it into the bottom of the sea.
Speaker 1:Okay, we are going to take a quick break from the episode and I'm going to bring in my brother, justin Koo. Justin, how's it going, man?
Speaker 4:Oh man, it is going good. Better than I can hear your voice.
Speaker 1:Oh man, good to see you. Good to see you. It's been a while since you've had an appearance on the Death of Life podcast. I think it was the last Bible draft we had. We need to do another one. But I have a question for you, my friend how long has it been since you've been on the good good? Have you had that good gospel in your life? How long has it been now?
Speaker 4:Oh man, it's hard for me to remember. I get the years mixed up, but I think it's somewhere around five years now, five years and just real quick.
Speaker 1:has the gospel done anything to change your life?
Speaker 4:The gospel has done quite a bit to change my life. One might say it has changed my entire life. And just in case you're wondering because you're scared about embracing the gospel, it has only changed my life for the better.
Speaker 1:There's no bad news in the good news. Is that what he's trying to say? It turns out, the good news is good good news. Okay, you have donated of your time, finances, energy to keep this thing going Like you had a whole, like you were doing ministry, but it was a whole different type thing. Why is this message, the message that you are free from and dead to sin so important that you would, that you put so much energy toward it?
Speaker 4:getting out there, man if our lives aren't about testifying about what God has done through us and in us, but most importantly for us, then what are we doing? And so I don't know. I'll just say that I'm completely sold out to sharing the good news in any way, shape or form that we possibly can, and I'm a firm believer that the message changes people's lives, and so if the message comes by way of glow tracks and knocking on doors, or if it comes by way of open air preaching or starting a church, or through posting content on the internet, I'm all in on doing so, and I just know that my life has been changed by this ministry, and I'm so excited to be able to throw my influence, my hard earned doubloons, as they say. I'm just happy to support, because now, if it changed my life, then there's the hopefulness that one more post, one more story, one more podcast can have the same effect for someone else out there.
Speaker 1:Amen. And if you are listening and you're like man, I want to put some energy, some power behind this message. You can go to loverealityorg slash give and every dollar that you donate goes towards this message getting out there, whether it's a podcast, whether it is a Bible study, whether it is Internet Church, you know we're just trying to get this out there. So, loverealityorg slash give. Thank you so much, justin, appreciate you coming on Right back at you, rich.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when I first met you, it wasn't just there was an edge, because there was some anger, and the anger comes honestly, because there was a lot of hurt and all of these things that were supposed to provide the answer didn't Like getting married didn't provide the answer. It became more of a problem. And then when we were over there and I think we did a Bible study that morning, eddie was on the phone downstairs and you and I and Brent were just talking upstairs and I didn't know your story, but I was wanting to know and she just seems really, really hurt, seems really really hurt. What is it that was able to take the hurt and say, no, you're, you're good.
Speaker 2:I think that there's a verse that it says God's kindness jasms to repentance, and so I think it's been that, just like the love of others and like hearing others' stories and that like I don't even know these people Most of them like it's really interesting when you know people and you can look them up and be like, oh, I'm going to have to send this. But I mean like I just got into the podcast and started listening to these people's stories and hearing bits of my own story in them and them coming to life, and like realizing there's no agenda, like go like Galatians 5 1 is for freedom, that crisis that is free. Like like he's not looking for something from you, he doesn't want anything from me. It's not what I can do for him, I'm not a security blanket, he has nothing to gain and and so it's just. It's just kind of been that kindness over time and even like, as I've been growing in freedom, there have been things like God put on my heart several months ago, like praying.
Speaker 2:I was praying for healing from resentment because I was like I feel like I've forgiven these people, but why do I still hold some of this in my heart? And I was praying about it and praying about it and praying about it, and I'm OK now with not having all the answers. Like there's people in my past that I'm like I just care, like I don't hold a candle for reconciliation. I don't ever hold a candle for a conversation again, because I mean some of those people. If they never experience freedom, they're like, they're so dishonest. Without like, like you can't talk to them. There's a Megan Trainor song that talks about like if you're lips are moving, you're lying, it's that. But like I no longer need that.
Speaker 2:But in this praying for healing from resentment, god gave me a conversation with someone that just like opened my eyes and I was able to say, yeah, I used to really resent you guys for that, but I don't anymore. And like it rolled off my tongue. I don't say things, ok, that I Like I don't see things that are untrue. If it came out of my mouth, it's because there's, I'm believing it. And it rolled out of my mouth so easily and I like it almost surprised me that I was like, oh, I've forgiven them. And it was like, like I suppose a lie, that I had been believing that I'm praying about how to release this, and God's like stop it, like just let it go. Like you you've already let it go. Don't, don't let it hold you back anymore.
Speaker 1:As you consider. How did this understanding of Like you're not the reason why sin was in your life and You're also not the reason why you've been set free from sin? How did that affect your marriage?
Speaker 2:It made me take things so much less personally. So like when Right would engage in behaviors where he was trying to check out and be busy, I think like around the same time to where he's living in freedom and coming into freedom and learning To live a different way. Like he's also realizing some of these things that he used to do are not healthy and like the combination of that. He's like realizing it's unhealthy, but I'm just like whatever it like, it's your, it's your deal. I backed off largely on that.
Speaker 2:And like Letting go of some of the micromanagey things that I was doing, like that was pretty quick and Just like I was allowed to have fun with my husband and experience him without the pressure, like In our early dating where it was like we're just hanging out, we're just going for hikes, we just like to do things together. Like I can do that now because there isn't all this pressure on the relationship To do these things, to Be perfect in these ways, to look good from the outside, whatever. Like it just um, it took a lot of the pressure off. And also like the Thinking about things more as a long game where I'm like we don't have to solve this tonight, like if we're in disagreement about something Like we both know that God will bring us to a place of, if not agreement, truce, you know like, and it's just. Every decision is not a big deal.
Speaker 1:So if you could, let's do it this way If you run into somebody who's had a similar background With alcoholism and you see they're manifesting a lot of the same Things that were present in your life, and you get to put your arm around them and say, babe, I gotta tell you something. What would you say To someone who's listening right now that perhaps is in that same situation?
Speaker 2:I would tell them that when they're ready to hear it, that they're ready to hear it, that they're ready to hear it and you don't have to Earn that love or prove that love or seek that love, you don't have to look for validation and Just I mean, like that life when I was in that dark deception and I was like I don't know if I would have heard it or even like, yeah, yeah, that's, I know that. But it's different to know that and to know that and I just, I just pray that there, when they get an opportunity to speak into someone's life, that, like the whole, I know the Holy Spirit will do the work. But it's like Like Ephesians 5a for once you're in darkness, but now you are light. Like you are light, like stop trying to be light, just you are it. And if, if your life doesn't feel like that, it's because something's wrong. You're not living Like he meant.
Speaker 1:So I've told this story, I don't know dozens of times, but I think you were here At the church in Denver and it was after potluck and we're all just sitting around and Jonathan just is like going for it. He doesn't have like I'm speaking on one topic, he's just like going for it. And this older lady, she comes to the front and I'm sitting at the front and there's tears in her eyes and she's just like. I think I believe this. What do I do now? And I just said Just be loved for a little bit yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Because we're so used to trying to do something, but so many people don't love because they're incapable of loving. They want to love, but they're incapable of loving, and it's because they don't know who they actually are, and so they're trying to become something or somebody. Yeah and Cassie, you are that thing, and I am that thing because of the graciousness and mercy of Jesus Christ, the righteous right. Yeah. Who, while we were enemies, did this for us. Yeah, and so we just get to be ourselves in him yeah. So that's, good news. The best.
Speaker 1:Thank you for telling your story. You had me tearing up.
Speaker 2:Me too.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:You're welcome. Thanks for it.
Speaker 1:Man. I love that story. I love her heart and her fervor for the gospel. If you have been in a position where somebody has hurt you and you're holding on to resentment, then this is for you, father in heaven, I know that this is killing me, holding the bitterness inside, and you have forgiven me. I've been made clean, I've been made new, and so this bitterness that I'm dealing with, this bitterness that I'm allowing, thank you for taking it from me by forgiving me and making me new, so that, now that this is true, I'm not going to be able to hold anything back from anybody Any kind of forgiveness, any kind of release. Thank you for doing it in me, because you love me so much. I pray these things in Jesus's name. What am I going to tell you? Go back and listen to Brent's episode on the death of life podcast. Go listen to it and send this episode to people that you love, that you want them to know the truth. Let's get the podcast out. Let's get it going. So send this one out. Love y'all, appreciate y'all.