Death to Life podcast
A podcast that tells the stories of people that used to be one way, and now are completely different, and the thing that happened in between was Jesus.
Death to Life podcast
#189 Journey of Faith: Bernice's Transformative Story of Love, Community, and Spiritual Awakening
Bernice Benabe takes us on an unforgettable journey through her transformative life story on the Death to Life podcast. As the youngest daughter in a tightly-knit Seventh-day Adventist family in Puerto Rico, Bernice's world was shaped by the warmth of her community and the constraints of tradition. Yet, it was these very foundations that set the stage for her profound spiritual awakening. Through unexpected encounters and pivotal decisions, Bernice's narrative unfolds with moments of spiritual enlightenment and personal growth, encouraging us to embrace the unknown with open hearts.
The tale of Bernice meeting Jose at a youth gathering is more than just a love story; it's a testament to faith overcoming the odds. Despite their cultural differences and the challenges of military life, their shared spiritual journey strengthened their bond and led to a new understanding of community and love.
As Bernice's story evolves, it touches on broader themes, like questioning conservative beliefs and discovering new spiritual landscapes. From engaging with diverse church communities to forming deep-rooted friendships, her path was shaped by the embrace of unexpected spiritual opportunities. Highlighted by her time in Puerto Rico, where personal and family transformations took center stage, Bernice's experiences underscore the significance of community and spiritual connection. Her journey is a compelling reminder of the strength found in unity and the endless possibilities when one remains open to love and faith.
Chapters:
14:46 - Love Found in Unexpected Places
19:36 - Navigating Early Marriage and Family Life
29:38 - Navigating Lifestyle Changes and Family Dynamics
41:06 - Navigating Church Controversies and Changes
49:55 - Spiritual Growth Through Community and Study
59:51 - Discovering New Spiritual Perspectives
1:16:16 - Deepening Faith Through Community Engagement
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The world doesn't think that the gospel can change your life, but we know that it can and that's why we want you to hear these stories, stories of transformation, stories of freedom, people getting free from sin and healed from sin because of Jesus. This is Death to Life.
Speaker 2:So the one I remember. I was on the treadmill, I was just walking with him and watching the thing on YouTube and when he said the problem with the prodigal son is we always focus on the fact that he was prodigal, when he, the whole time he was son. He was always son. I yelled, I was on the train, I was like, yes, that's it. We're always children, always children. It was just out loud and I was.
Speaker 1:I just couldn't get enough yo, my name is richard young and this is the Death to Life podcast, and today's episode is with my friend, t Benny that's what we call her on the internets. Her name is Bernice Benabe and she has been a blessing in our lives for so long and this podcast has been a long time coming. And she gets to tell a beautiful story of what it's like to grow up in the church, know God is good and then, yet, receiving the gospel, it gets that much sweeter. So you're going to love this episode because we all love D Benny and you're going to be blessed by it. So let's jump into the episode, buckle up, strap in Love y'all, appreciate y'all. Okay, t-benny, we have been circling this podcast episode. Oh, how long has it been? About three years. Let me ask you this when you received the gospel, was the Death to Life podcast already out? Yes, oh, okay. We're going on our fourth year of the Death to Life podcast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it wasn't the fourth year for me, it was 2021. Okay yeah, that's when.
Speaker 1:I heard it 2021. Okay, yeah, when I heard it. Okay, so this thing came out in October of 2020. Okay, and so, yeah, about three years, and normally I you know how I start this thing. Where are you taking us? You're from the island of Puerto Rico. Is that where you were born?
Speaker 2:That is right. Puerto Rico Long time ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what was that like Tell us about your folks, where you were from and what was your background spiritually.
Speaker 2:I did grow up was born in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. My parents, I think they became Adventist as teens, maybe early teens, and then yeah, so I'm the youngest of three children, three girls, and there's quite a difference in age between my sisters and I. My oldest sister was nine years older than me and then six, so I was definitely an unexpected baby from what I've heard, heard and yeah, but it was good. It wasn't perfect, for sure, but I don't think it was definitely culturally more conservative because of the culture, but not not terribly strict, I would say, at least not for me, and my sisters do tell me that's because I was the youngest, so that it was harder for them.
Speaker 1:What does that mean? When you say culturally conservative, give me an example what was something that you wanted to do or that you just knew you couldn't.
Speaker 2:I knew that we're a jury or we didn't go to parties, we didn't eat certain foods, certain pork or whatever. In that sense it was conservative. We didn't spend a lot of time with people who were Adventist. We did with our neighbors and things like that. I did go to Adventist schools but the one good thing though I have to say I did spend time with my friends that were in Adventist, but it wasn't like a lot of time. Most of our time was with church. It's busy all day long. Sabbath in our culture we went to church Sunday night, wednesday night, friday night, sabbath mornings, and then there was either choir, bystanders or something. In the afternoons it was a whole day event on Sabbath and that sense that was quite different to the church in the United States once I moved here that we only saw people really one week to the next, one time a week. I did miss that once I moved to the United States.
Speaker 1:When I was younger, I remember distinctly being afraid of people who weren't Christian, even people who weren't Adventist. I just remember these people aren't Christian, they're all evil. And then these people who are christian that aren't adventist, they like. I remember being leery of them. Did you have that same feeling growing up?
Speaker 2:I did not. I did not at all. I just knew that when somebody asked, can you come to my party? We have a party this weekend or whatever, I can't. And usually usually the reason was the church doesn't allow it. I didn't really have a reason. But I did go to day school. So in Puerto Rico specifically, a lot of people put their children in private schools, whether they're Adventist or not. So I had lots of classmates that weren't Adventist. So I did have friends who weren't Adventist and we had a really close relationship with our neighbors. There was a neighbor that we used to babysit for and I would spend a lot of time at her house and it was okay with my parents. I didn't feel weird about it at all, but I just knew there were certain things I just didn't do because the church didn't allow it. So that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:It's a good excuse when you don't want to do something, and then if you do want to do it, it doesn't feel good. For sure. So who was God growing up?
Speaker 2:What was the picture that you had of him? I don't know that I had thought that through. I just knew he was in heaven and what people say when you hear from the pulpit Jesus loves you. And sang all the songs and I loved all the hanging out with people and all the youth group things and all of that and I love. And I did remember praying, but it was just like you always praying for your food or praying before you go to bed, always praying for your food or praying before you go to bed. Yeah, so it wasn't anything specific.
Speaker 2:Probably in high school is probably when it was more. I remember being at a week of prayer that they did in school, at school, and I remember there was an illustration. I can't remember the exact illustration, but there was an illustration with a mirror and it really made an impression on me. And I remember going home and that night I was just like praying and really feeling like I needed to get to know God more and stuff like that. But I had faith. But I wasn't like doing lots of different things and I was very involved with church. I was in the choir and parfum days. I like to help and do all kinds of things.
Speaker 1:At what point did you start thinking about if you had salvation or if you were going to be saved? And when you did think about it, did it come out good? Were you like yeah, I'm in. Or were you like I still got some work to do?
Speaker 2:There was always something. There was always something more. I don't think that I can pinpoint a time. I just always felt that I didn't believe Jesus was coming soon, and they definitely put that fear in our heads at school with all kinds of videos that we watched of last day events and things like that. And I remember thinking, praying. That kind of prayer of I hope I'm ready, but I was there was never like assurance. I never felt like I'm in. There's always something else, but I never also was not.
Speaker 2:I was also not somebody who was constantly concerned about it Like I was. It wasn't in the front of my head I must do this or I must do that, or I must ask for forgiveness for this or for that. I just but I also wasn't somebody who was in a lot of trouble, like I had friends and I did things, but it wasn't like I had issues with things, that I was like, oh, I shouldn't be doing this type thing. I don't know, and maybe it may be it's because there's certain things, even in my own family life, that I was able to. Somehow my brain, I feel like, compartmentalizes. Is that right? How do you say it? Is that right how you say it, and if I'm in this situation, then I'm focused on just that one situation and it just. Once I'm out of it, then it just leaves my mind. Maybe that's why I don't know, but I wasn't like thinking every day I must do this. I just knew that when people ask I can't do that I go to church All my parents say I can't, or whatever.
Speaker 1:So what was the plan? That you were going to find a nice young man on the island, or what was your aspirations?
Speaker 2:Actually, my oldest sister was super influential in my life. Like I said, she was nine years older than me but she was the one that always wanted to do things with me or, if there was, if she had friends over, she include me. If we had a birthday party and she was planning and she was inviting and she was taking me places and, unlike my other sister who didn't want anything to do with her younger sister other sister who didn't want anything to do with her younger sister tagging along with her and that kind of stuff, when she got married, she as the oldest, she got married and she moved to the United States. Before she got married she went to Andrews University. And this is what I remember when I actually thought that it's different in the way people believe. For me, the way we did church and the way we believe was what everybody did, because that was all I knew as far as our church. But then when my sister came to the United States and we went to visit her and then there were signs that she was doing things differently, that we weren't doing it at home, then my dad was very concerned and he was like I had never heard the term conservative and liberal before and until she went to the United States. The most people over there are very liberal, but we used to travel a lot.
Speaker 2:My parents were both teachers and my dad loved to travel and it's something my mom, but I think it was more of a passion of my dad and several summers we would just pack all our things and go with another family and we would fly to Miami.
Speaker 2:My dad would buy a car Back then this was in the 70s so he would buy a station wagon there's a very long station wagon and there'll be 10 of us in there and we would travel around the United States for four, five, six weeks camping, a lot of camping and visiting all the sites and amusement parks and all the science places, because my dad was a science teacher. So I learned through that to love travel and to love the United States and to love the English language. So that really helped me in a number of ways. So then, once I was in high school, my sister was already married and living in the United States my older sister. That's what I wanted to do. I knew I wanted to go to college in the United States and that's just what I was going to do and my dad said, no way, my older two sisters just became other people when they went to the United States, to these Adventist colleges, these liberal Adventist colleges.
Speaker 1:What did he not like about how they turned out from these colleges?
Speaker 2:You know the makeup. You know people wear makeup, really colorful makeup and things like that. That was really his main thing Because, to be honest with you, he was a very quiet person. He was super quiet.
Speaker 2:My mom was definitely more of the disciplinarian of the home and the only time my dad ever said anything to me about you can't do this was when I bought a red lipstick. That was the only time in my life. He never said you can't do this, you can't do that. I had this red lipstick and he picked it up and he says you can't do this, you can't do that. And so when that was the only time, and so when my sisters were and I brought more of my older sister to have this makeup and whatever these people are crazy. This is so liberal. Anyway, he said I wasn't going and I said, yeah, at some point I will, but I wasn't old enough yet to get to college. So that was my original plan and then it became my sister is in North Carolina, that's where she was living at the time and I'm going to go live with her and go to college over there and, I don't know, find somebody over there. But then I met Jose.
Speaker 1:Where did you meet Jose.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's an interesting story. We had a really close neighbor friend that we used to babysit for my oldest sister first, and then she went to college and then, anyway, I ended up babysitting for her and she was a really great family friend. She is still and so she there was in our neighborhood. There were a lot of teenagers and she was very concerned about what they were doing on the streets and stuff like that, and so they used to go to this little Catholic chapel. That was a house in the neighborhood that they turned into a Catholic chapel, and she wanted to have a little thing for the youth on Thursday night. And she said I would love for you to come to that, because Catholics don't really sing and they don't do a lot of youth things back then. Anyway, I don't know what they do now, and so I would love for you to come and teach us some songs, because I know your church, you sing. And I said, oh, my mom's never going to let me go to a Catholic church. There's no way that's not happening. And so she says, maybe, anyway. So then I talked to my mom. Absolutely, those were her first words no, you're not going over there. And I said she just wants me to teach them some corritos, the songs and whatever. And she let me go just one time. And Jose was there.
Speaker 2:How old were you? I was 17. 17. I was in my senior year of high school, which this is the other interesting thing I wasn't going to come. I was when I planned this I was going to go to the United States for college. And then my junior year I went with a good friend. We were going to go to the United States for that last year of high school so that we could get residency and then get college cheaper, and, and so that was the plan and I had told my friend I'm not coming back next year. And so it didn't work out, because the main reason we were going was because my friend had a boyfriend in the United States but they broke up, so then she didn't want to go, and then I was like well, I'm not going by myself. So I did go to high school by my senior year, and that January was when I met Jose All of my senior year of high school.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I met him there. Of course he was an Adventist, he would. He had some evangelical type background, but he wasn't attending church or anything like that, and I invited him. It was like January, but then it was later when I invited him. And I invited him it was like January, but then it was later when I invited him. And the Spanish culture, catholicism, is very influential. So even in our churches, in Adventist churches, we have weeks of prayer during Holy Week, so there's all the events for Holy Week and then there is all these church things happening. So I invited him to that and he came and you know he kept coming and revelation seminars and all the things, and that was pretty much it we get. We were married about two years later, so I was pretty young you were 19, how old?
Speaker 1:How old was he?
Speaker 2:Oh, 25. 25.
Speaker 1:He knew the place to be. He was 20, 23. Now, if you had a 17-year-old daughter and they were dating a 23-year-old guy, maybe you might be a little weary about that, but not back then in good old Puerto Rico. Okay, did he become Adventist before you guys got married?
Speaker 2:Yes, that was a requirement. I'm going to tell you what that's. When I actually started praying, it was when we started spending more time together and he was coming to church and he had his own quite story to tell his testimony. But I was praying because I was like I'm not sure this is the person because she's not Adventist. So I'm just praying for guidance and praying for miracles or for God to just remove him from my life. This wasn't it.
Speaker 2:But and I really it was interesting because, no, my parents didn't say anything about the age difference or the fact that he was an Adventist. They invited him to things, to events with the family that I was surprised that they invited him to, and so it's like maybe they're okay with it, but they really weren't. They just weren't saying anything. So, anyway, that was that, and so we got married and he was joining the Air Force. So then I actually got both finding somebody. He became an Adventist. He actually got baptized Long story he got baptized, he joined the military, the Air Force, we got married legally and then he left to go into basic training and we didn't see each other for eight months.
Speaker 1:Where was his basic training?
Speaker 2:You see, Sorry, Texas, San Antonio Texas.
Speaker 1:So what was the plan? Where were you guys going to live when he got?
Speaker 2:back Wherever the Air Force sent him. And so the Air Force you feel paperwork and he had chosen places on the east because that's where my sister lived. She was still in North Carolina at the time and his sister was in Tennessee in the Memphis area and we were like we'd like to be closer to family. So that's the only people we actually know in the United States at that time. So he chose places in that area. But the Air Force he always jokes they read that it said South, we wanted to be South, so they sent us to South Dakota.
Speaker 1:Yes, so you were married for how long before he left?
Speaker 2:Oh, nine days. Nine days, okay, but we were married legally. We were married legally, richard.
Speaker 1:You were married in the eyes of the Lord at a certain time.
Speaker 2:No, we weren't married in the eyes of the Lord according to my mother. Married in the eyes of the Lord. According to my mother, we were married legally and it was just the paper so that he got more money in the military. As a married person I got some benefits while he was gone, but the church wedding took part in December, so this was April and then it took part in December. So that was the eight months that we were apart and that's why he was doing training and school for the military, and so he came in December and then we got married in December in the church and according to my parents, this was the real wedding Anyway.
Speaker 1:Your mom did not consider you married in those nine days before he left.
Speaker 2:No, and there was no consummation of marriage. No, poor guy, she would have died man.
Speaker 1:I guess you could just call it an engagement. But you're married. That's what it felt like. Probably we're engaged to be married, even though in the books here in puerto rico we are actually army. So you moved to south dakota. What year did you guys get married? 84, 84, and you were living just a state away. How long did you live in south dakota? Five and a half years, yeah, I was born in South Dakota. I was right underneath you in Omaha. You should have waved. That's what I lived there, 1985, I think through 90 or 91. Yeah, the plan was he's going to be in the Air Force. What about you? Did you guys start having kids right away? I feel like you started having kids right away because, doing the math, you're married at 84 and your kids are. Yeah, which is which one's the oldest one? Not, and she's in my class?
Speaker 1:right, she's in o2 she is l4 oh yeah, okay, so she was born she and joe in the same class yeah, so she was born in 85 or 86. Okay, 85. Yes, so that was your full-time gig. You didn't need to go to college in the United States. Full-time gig.
Speaker 2:I started and it was in that sense. My mom was strict. In that sense she was a strict person. She was a strict person in the sense of yeah, of yeah. She was strict anyway, but she I, because I was under age, okay, in puerto rico all the time I don't know whether it is in the united states now or if it was that way any ever because I was under 21, in order for me to get married, I needed to have a witness in this marriage, and she was my witness, my mom. So first she told me no. She said no, you're not getting married, you're too young. My dad never said a word, but he wasn't happy about it.
Speaker 1:You can get married, but if you're wearing that lipstick, I'm calling it off.
Speaker 2:But so he never said anything about that. While, yeah, right before this marriage happened, my mom said no. And then later she came around because my sister said what's the point of you saying no if they want to be together? And blah, blah, blah. So she said OK, but then she said I'll go and I'll sign, but you need to finish college before you have any children. That was her thing. You need to finish college before you have any children.
Speaker 2:I said, sure, I really wasn't planning on having children so quickly. So I went and I enrolled in college. But this is the one thing that happened at the time Birth control was the pill and in Puerto Rico back then you could go to the pharmacy and just ask for it. You didn't have to have a prescription, they just gave it to you. Then I moved to the United States and I ran out and I went to the pharmacy and that's not how things worked here. So I had to wait to have an appointment and get a prescription and I got pregnant in that time and she wasn't happy when I told him at all it was actually, what were you going to go to college to do?
Speaker 1:What were you going to? What was it? What were you going to?
Speaker 2:I actually wanted to do something in business. That was my plan. I like numbers and stuff like that and that's what I started to do. It was really hard because I came from the island. I actually moved.
Speaker 2:We moved December 26th from 85 degrees in Puerto Rico and it was like South Dakota 30, maybe in South Dakota Rapid was like South Dakota 30, maybe in South Dakota Rapid City, south Dakota, tiny little airport that you had to walk from the airplane to the terminal. I had a headache for two weeks and it was just my body trying to adjust to this weather. So anyway, it was probably it was December. It was February when I told her when I found out I was pregnant and so she wasn't happy with me.
Speaker 1:So I'm guessing, early on in your marriage you're probably the stronger spiritual person because of your background in Adventism, if I'm wrong. But if you're setting the culture for the family? But if you're setting the culture for the family, what did you have in mind? I guess the truth is, most of the time we just are like our parents because that's what we know, and you're having these three girls You're from a family of three girls Did you pretty much want to have a conservative, pretty strict Adventist home? What were you thinking?
Speaker 2:This is the thing, richard. I don't think that way. I don't think ahead. I don't have plans. These people plan their life.
Speaker 2:The only thing I knew that I wanted to do when I was in high school was I wanted to be 21. By 21, when I got married because my oldest sister was 21. I wanted to have four children, because I came from three and it wasn't fun. I think four would have been better. That's what I thought. So that's the only thing I knew.
Speaker 2:I wasn't planning in church. I wasn't planning. I was raising kids, but obviously we were going to go to church. That wasn't an option. Not going to church, sabbath keeping super important. Those are maybe the kinds of things that are super important. I was to a point where because that wasn't Jose's background, right so sometimes if you needed something suddenly or whatever, he had no problem going to the store to get it and I would be just mortified. I was sure I was going to get lost if I went to the store to get it and I would be just mortified. I was sure I was going to get lost if I went to the store and sell it, so stuff like that. I knew that's what I wanted to do and I did, but I wasn't like planning, I just did things and it wasn't great, it was really. It was rocky in the beginning, for sure, not so much because of church stuff necessarily, but just busy. I was 23 by the time my youngest was born, so but when I turned 23, I had three children.
Speaker 1:Mercy. I wasn't married till. I was 24.
Speaker 2:So it was busy. It was just busy, but it was. I enjoyed it, though I really love taking care of the kid. And then he had. When Jasmine was seven months old she's the youngest he had a what do they call it a remote assignment that he went to Alaska and he was there for 15 months.
Speaker 4:Hold on, did it go up there.
Speaker 2:No, it was just me with the kid For 15 months. Yes, so I did go to Puerto Rico for two months while he was gone and my mom and my dad came. They had just retired as teachers, so they came. My dad came with me when I came back from Puerto Rico in those two months and then my mom came. She was the one that wasn't retired yet, so she came for another month or so at one point. So it was rough, but I had to stay because I was so young. That's probably why I can't say I had a plan. Who has a plan at 19? I guess there's people that do. But I was just living life. I just this came up. Okay, I'll deal with this whatever came up, and I just dealt as it came.
Speaker 1:I think I asked that because of I know that you guys used to go to those little camp meetings with our friends, the Reigns, and so I'm wondering like when did that come into play? Is that later?
Speaker 2:on in your life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, much later and maybe not much later. So we were in South Dakota for the five and a half years, so say it was gone. The last year we were there had all kinds of different things, I have to say, because of our age difference and probably because of the way I was raised, where my mom always directed things in the family and whatever, and I was more in a sense like my dad, more of the passive person. I it was easy for me to just do, I know, being super confident even in my English or whatever. I pretty much just was a little codependent with Jose at the beginning and then so when he left for that period of time I just blossomed in a sense. So it was good for me because it was like I went back to what I was in high school, in the sense that I could do my things, because at home nobody was really doing things for me necessarily, but I wasn't having to do much anyway. I wasn't taking care of finances or any of that. So once he was gone I was doing everything. I was taking care of the kids, I was doing everything, and so it was very good for me in that sense. I felt like that's when I really grew up, and so then we moved from there.
Speaker 2:He got stationed in Little Rock, arkansas, or outside of Little Rock, and we lived on base there, and so my oldest like I said, my oldest sister was my guide. I remember she became very conservative in her beliefs and so she would come, I remember, and then she became a vegetarian, because we weren't growing up, we didn't eat a lot of meat but we weren't vegetarians, and so I remember she would come visit and she would bring her own food to our house, and so she will, but she was very nice about it, so she will prepare things for us to taste it. Well, I learned about this and try this, and she wasn't very condemning or anything like that. And when we moved to ark she had moved to Puerto Rico. Her husband is originally from North Carolina and so they had moved to Puerto Rico and she was homeschooling and therefore I went to homeschool. My sister was really my idol, and so she was very conservative.
Speaker 2:She decided she wanted her kids in a self-supporting school, and so they moved to Arkansas after we were there, and so they she was working at a self-supporting school there, about two hours from where we lived lived. So then we were there every, maybe every other weekend or whatever. So that was the influence and the self-supporting school, and she invited us to a camp meeting. So we went, and we never went to a camp meeting where the rings were at, because this was before the rings were part of this group, but the people that were part of that that they'd come to the school to preach a few times, and so that's where I met them and, yeah, we went to several of those. We went to Heartland College one summer for a camp meeting. There was then one group in Wichita, kansas I don't know if you've ever heard of them. I forgot their name Steps to Life or something like that. Anyway, they had some self-supporting ministry earlier that we went to at Camp Medi. So that's when that happened.
Speaker 1:So you were vibing with the self-supporting ministry kind of people Still are to this day Love self-supporting ministries, yeah, Of course I do and I support them. Yeah, praise the Lord, thank you. Yeah, praise the Lord, thank you. So would you say? So the kids, raising the kids would you say that was one of the hardest things you've ever done. How was navigating them all the way up through high school and into college?
Speaker 2:I don't think it was one of the hardest things. It was probably one of the most enjoyable parts of my life. I did homeschool I'm not sure I mean when I talked to them. I know they had some good experiences through it. But from Little Rock we went up to Vermont. So while we were in Little Rock is where we met, when we met Lombards, oh yeah, they were there only one year and that was the best year, I think, because for them, for our girls, because we were able, we would go over there once a week and spend a day, a whole day, with them.
Speaker 2:You guys just clicked with them because they're yeah they had the kids about the same age not exactly, but the girls were about the same age, like Lauren and and Nadja, and we were there in Arkansas for five years and they were there for one year I think it was 93 and but it was a real blessing for me in the sense of that one year Jose was gone on military tours twice to Africa. For one time was three months, the next time was four months. So it was nice for me to have a place, just a friend. I made a new friend and they had kids and the kids could hang out and she was homeschooling and I wanted to homeschool. I hadn't quite started yet, it's not just really young at the time, but I was, it was probably that year and so she was really a good guide and helped her to navigate the homeschooling. You don't need to do these or whatever. It was just a really good connection and she actually told me about Yara Young and she shared the book that book.
Speaker 1:Oh no, it's Sabbath again and I'm not ready.
Speaker 2:That's a book my mom wrote for me, right here in my bookcase. Still, I got it in here somewhere too. But you know what? That book was huge for me because I was always okay because of the way I was raised. Yes, we my mom wanted a clean house all the time and but, lucky for us, our grandmother lived with us and she didn't work, so she didn't clean and my mom worked. My parents both worked, but but my grandmother lived there, so I was trained. I guess I grew up with the training of you wanting to have everything clean and in order before sabbath. Right, and so I did, and I actually I can't say that I ever did consciously, that I ever did something specifically because I must. I actually enjoy it. I enjoy what I was doing. I enjoy it. That thing sure is dusty house too. It's clean. It's almost time let's get this done.
Speaker 1:That must be a generational thing that is lost on my generation, because my mom and we're talking about this book. My mom wrote oh no, it's happening again and I'm not ready. My mom loves to clean, loves it. She eats it up. She's oh, it's time to clean that. I do not have that. I don't think my wife has it. Our house is clean sometimes by the grace of God. But that book was super helpful. I just met somebody the other day and they found out that it was my mom who wrote the book and they're like that book changed my life and was like such a blessing. She had an earmark all over the place. She's like when your mom comes, I need to meet her.
Speaker 2:And so I'm glad that book was a blessing to a lot of people that my mom was yeah, I can't say that I love to clean, but I like things to be clean, and there's no way to have them clean if you don't clean it right or you pay somebody to come clean. So anyway, so that helped me organize it better and anyway. So that was that connection with Lombards and your mom's book, and so that was that connection with Lombards and your mom's book, and so that was huge. That was probably the biggest thing of my whole Christian experience was probably the Sabbath and diet for sure you know the way we ate and then, of course, the influence of my sister about eating healthy, and not only her.
Speaker 2:I remember I don't know how old I was, I don't know early teens. Maybe somebody must have come to our church in Puerto Rico to give some sort of health talk. Because things started to change in my house. Like my dad was eating peanut butter I've never heard of peanut butter before and he was stuck like that and he was buying like the brown bread and he was the brown bread.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when I was like what's going on, they started talking about it. I was like, okay, sure, and I think that's part of it, my personality too. I tend to be more of a rule follower, but it does need to make some sense to me. Just because you said it doesn't mean I'm going to do it, but if it makes sense, okay, I'm not going to necessarily fight it, so anyway, so that's how the main thing in my house and I think I was definitely strict with the food at the house, but I don't know, and that's something you could probably ask the children, the girls they probably have a different view of it, as I did. To me it was just like this is healthy and I just have it here. And are we not eating between meals? Are we drinking lots of water or whatever. It was just part. It wasn't like for me, it wasn't like something I was check marking ever. It was just like I learned it. So I must do it. So this, just I think it's just part of my personality.
Speaker 1:So at this point, spiritual life I'm hearing a lot of keeping the Sabbath. I'm hearing a lot of we need to live by a health message, the healthy lifestyle. Was the assurance? Still not there. Was your picture of God? Still, it's not really about God, even it's we need to live this way. Do you remember how you were thinking about it?
Speaker 2:For sure. Sure, at one point more, when we were in Arkansas and the influence of all the camp meetings and self-supporting messages and a lot of criticism for sure, a lot of judgment, a lot of being judgmental you started being judgmental. I always felt that I've never been somebody to share a lot about my life because I didn't want people to judge it one way or another and I felt like churches. Always there was some sort of judging. Always I never felt like it was comfortable to be open with people about stuff, and I even try to be open with one particular friend about one thing and they stopped me and I was like then I guess I don't need to share that either. So, but within these circles there's a lot of judgment because that we must eat this way, we must dress this way, we must not do these things, we must tell the world I.
Speaker 2:This is when I was actually learning more and more in these circles and listening more to all the counsel and all the rules, rules I had never heard even growing up. I started hearing more about them at this time and it was very strict at this self-supporting school and the girls didn't wear pants for any reason, really, and I was there. I wasn't working there, but I was there a lot. My sister wasn't like that, so she would allow her kids at the house to not necessarily be that strict, but anyway it was that kind of influence. And then I don't know if you remember, if you were old enough for what was going on this there was this celebration movement going on oh, we were afraid of it.
Speaker 1:I remember distinctly hearing that's a celebration church. When we were living in atlanta there was a church we our church was more in the city and there was this church like north of town and it was a celebration church and we're like what does mean? Like they might have a guitar or I think. I don't know if drums were all the way in yet, but if there were drums like whoa unto the, who have drums on your platform, like it was yeah, that was the word.
Speaker 2:The celebration church Is that what was going on in your area in the 90s and there was all these videos against them, against the self-supporting ministries putting videos against it, because it's what we see now, against reality, people putting videos about it. And anyway, there were all these videos and we would sit down and watch them. And then they were talking about all these things and how this person's preaching over there and they're making motions with their hands that look like anvil eggs, and how there's Jesuits behind every tree and how they all these different things. So I was like some of it wasn't making sense to me, to be honest with you, but at the same time, the people that were showing them to me, I trusted them. So they must know. They must know better than I do. Or a pastor, even at our church where we were going in Liver Rock, oh, he was praying and he said, blah, blah, blah. Oh, this is celebration or this is from the canon.
Speaker 1:What was the problem, what was the big problem with celebration?
Speaker 2:I don't even know what the problem was.
Speaker 1:I think I don't know what the problem was.
Speaker 2:I think I don't know what the problem was, to be honest with you. What I remember is that we needed to be a very pure church, we needed to live sinless, infiltrating the church and changing it. So I think what the specific problem was I couldn't tell you, but it was changing something. So then this was the culture that I was participating in the 90s, early 90s I remember my parents not really being fans and so I wasn't a fan.
Speaker 1:I I'm a mama's boy and whatever my mom and dad would say and my dad didn't really talk too much about it but if my mom was like, nah, that's not cool, then I was like, yeah, why are? Why are people doing that and thinking about the times? No, internet, everything's just. You learn about the church through the magazines that you're getting, like the Review and Herald that comes to your home once a month or something like that. Spectrum was an actual magazine that came to your house. It wasn't an online website and, yeah, it was like a nerve wracking time, like leery of things and being worried about it, but we were super conservative, super super conservative and we didn't want any of that devil music in our church or whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when I was, when we were in Arkansas, I there was the store Mardell. I don't know if you've heard of Mardell.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, oh yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:Anyway, I had never heard of a store like that, so we had Mardell and there was. I love music, I've always loved music, and so I had started. Of course, this is when I started In South Dakota. I didn't do much, I mean, I was too busy with the kids. They were very little. Then we moved to my Dell and I thought this is the best thing in the world because everything that was Christian and whatever. And so I remember buying some of the cassette tapes of the kids music and it was great the Donut man and I can't remember what the other one was Salty and Colby Salty and all of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then it was great, and then one day my sister told me that it wasn't good. It just, this music just wasn't good, and I was like we must get rid of it all of it. I remember we, we had made copies though, of these cassette tapes so that we could put them in both cars, and yeah, so both I had, but the originals were gone, sandy patty, all of that was gone. And so then we, I have to say I made one comment about something of my pastor to julie, and actually it was she gave me really wise words and she said that she didn't really want to discuss the pastor, and I was like, maybe she didn't mean it, it hit my head, so she didn't say those particular words, but it was good.
Speaker 2:And so they left, and we were there a couple more years, and then we left and I actually wanted to go wherever Lombards were, and they went to Maine, and there was no Air Force base in Maine at the time, it was just in research or whatever. And so we were like, so how can we get up there? So Jose actually joined the recruiting squadron, so then you could go wherever to recruit, and there were no openings in Maine, but there was openings in Vermont, so we moved to Vermont and so we were about four hours from our friends now and it was a tiny little church. We went over there and it was pretty conservative, but it had, considering that it was small, small. There were at least four families with children just the exact same age as ours, so it was a great time for them and and, and then one of the families in particular wasn't as conservative as there is, or maybe two of them were not as conservative as the church in general. So so I actually learned a lot just from them, just from being there, and I think that experience of that church started opening my eyes to other things. My sister was in there and I'm painting her like she was a great person, loved her to death she, but she was a huge influence in my life. So what she said, I definitely took it almost as law almost every time and we I started listening to things, and then we had a small group that was the big thing you know by, and that was 95, 96, maybe, and the big thing then was spiritual gifts, and so everybody was talking about spiritual gifts and thing then was spiritual gifts, and so everybody was talking about spiritual gifts, and then there was spiritual gifts assessments and things like that.
Speaker 2:I wasn't into that. I never was into that, because I've never really been into those tests that tell you what you are or not are, because I'm like I can see I have tendencies for this or whatever. But I always I remember saying in one of those groups why are we limiting the Holy Spirit? Can't he do whatever he wants? So I remember thinking. So I think, to be honest with you, that's the first time that I felt like maybe I'm thinking outside of the box and so that started my trajectory into looking at different things and then just going back a little bit to, or a while back.
Speaker 2:When we were in South Dakota that year that Jose was gone. There was some big controversy in the church, Like something was happening in Hawaii at the time that people weren't happy about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Do you remember what it was?
Speaker 2:It was something to do with tithe money. So it was something to do with tithe money and this was, I don't know, 1999, 89, 89. Because I said it was going 89 to 90. And I remember this one guy got up there and he was an elder of the church and he got up and he started talking about it and he started people were passing tracks. So he was like, and so people were upset that this man was passing these tracks, but one made it to my hand and so I I went home and I read the whole thing and that's actually when I started questioning, to be honest with you, to really question what do I really believe? Because before that I just believed whatever my parents and my sister said and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then when I got this little track about what was going on and what we should do and we shouldn't do with our money, and blah, blah, blah and what they're doing with their money and whatever it just said, what do I really believe about it? And I started doing more studying.
Speaker 2:And then, anyway, now in Vermont, we were only there a little over two years in Vermont. Then Jose was sent to recruit to Puerto Rico, so we went back to Puerto Rico for four years and I was still homeschooling and that was a really rough move for the girls. They had wonderful music teachers and good friends in Vermont. I think Nadia was ready to go to school and it just didn't happen. And then we went to Puerto Rico. That was. It wasn't a good community for us there as far as the church, the language and all of that for them.
Speaker 1:And was it hard because the girls in Spanish wasn't as good, or that was hard.
Speaker 2:But I also raised them pretty conservative in the sense of the way they dressed and whatever. And in Puerto Rico kids, like at eight, they're wearing the latest fashion and I wasn't doing that. So I was more like we're still wearing our dress in the church, and I think that was hard. Not the community of friends, not a decent homeschool group. They had a wonderful piano teacher in Vermont and it was really hard to find a good teacher in Puerto Rico. We did find one towards the end of our stay there, but it was a hard move for them.
Speaker 2:I think it was a good move for us as a family in the fact that the chaplain of the base we were living in, the Navy base, the chaplain was Adventist and so we became friends with them and he one day asked me if I had, because once I went to school while I was pregnant with Nadja, but then when I got pregnant with Felicia, it was too much. So I went one semester and then I quit, and so he encouraged me to go back to school while we were there on that base. He said the school's right here, you can just walk to it. So I did, and so I finished my degree while we were in Puerto Rico.
Speaker 1:And was it your degree?
Speaker 2:in Spanish education A business.
Speaker 2:Oh okay, so business, so anyway. But while we were there homeschooling, there was a little group of homeschoolers but we didn't go too much because our girls were the oldest ones and there was a lot of really young kids but we did a few things with them. But one of the moms called me one day. This was we had been in Puerto Rico three years. This was the third year. Starting the third year, we were there and she said we have this group of moms that meets a woman some of them were single that meets at the chapel and we have a women's Bible study every Wednesday. I think it was Wednesday morning. And so she the reason she contacted me was not to invite me to Bible study. It was to see, since my girls were older, if they could babysit the little ones Do this Bible study. We know you're homeschooled too. The girls. We could pay them and then you could have. We know your homeschool too, and the girls, we could pay them and then you could have. It's a couple of hours and you can have some time for yourself. And I said, oh, let me think about it. That sounds good. And it was really close really.
Speaker 2:The chapel really close, everything on base was really close to our house and but then I asked them what they were studying and they told me the name of the book, which is called the Friendships of Women, and I had read that book when we were in Vermont and I loved it. And I think my sister was also starting to move away from all the self-supporting stuff too, because she recommended this book and this is not an Adventist author and there was another book she recommended to me and I was like, so anyway, so I love this book. So when she told me that's what they were studying, I said yeah, the girls can babysit and I'll go. And that was huge for my spiritual growth because I was the only Adventist in this group.
Speaker 2:There was like 30 women there and I was the only Adventist, and I was the only Adventist and I saw people relating to each other in a way that I've never seen in my church, in any of the churches I had been part of, like they love each other, talk about things and people pray with each other. I've never seen that and up to that point, all I had seen was a lot of judgment, and so there was not judgment going on in the school and also, we know, at least in the circles I had been. A lot of people that are in Adventist don't know a lot of the Bible. They don't know a lot of stories. I feel like Adventists know a lot of stories because maybe it's out of school. I don't know.
Speaker 1:We know a lot of those for sure, like we can tell you stories.
Speaker 2:So I just remember, every time I opened my mouth about something, they were like oh, and I was like in my head, they don't know that. I thought everybody knew that type thing. And I remember they decided that. So I had a great time, I made some good friends there and I was like that's really, when I thought there are people outside of our denominations who are going to heaven, because before that I wasn't sure that was going to happen. And I remember they were having a retreat for a weekend and they invited me and I was like I don't in my head I know where to go because I don't know it's going to be over sabbath. What are they going to do with sabbath? And I can't be there? They're going to do stuff on sabbath that I can't do right so then I asked them so oh yeah, what's the schedule?
Speaker 2:and and she said and I was like you know what, I'm just going to go. And I went and it was so fun and it was just we were just like doing crafts, like it was a great Sabbath anyway, and but it was really good for me. It was really good for me. And then we did several more studies because we did that that friendships that women was maybe like four or five weeks, and then they did, did we? And we ended up extended our stay in puerto rican. Instead of three years we were supposed to be there only three years, so then jose had one more year, so we ended up being there four. So I went through their bible study every time for another whole year and I went to another retreat with them and so kind of brought in your horizons a little bit.
Speaker 2:It kind of opened up a little bit Huge, huge, and we were studying, doing Bible studies from like Beth Moore, and that was like some of the things I would read in there. I was like what, really? I've never heard it this way, so it was really eye-opening for me. Anyway, and then from there we came to Colorado 2001.
Speaker 1:anyway, and then from there we came to colorado 2001 was he still in the?
Speaker 2:what branch of the military is he in at that point? Still in the air force? Air force, yeah. When did he retire from the air force 2004?
Speaker 1:right as they're gonna go to college, as naja is gonna go to college yes, naja graduated from college 2004 or high school right for high school high school.
Speaker 2:Yes, sorry, yeah, high school 2004 and I started working 2004, full-time, yeah, anyway. So, yeah, we came here. Jose left recruiting and so we came here and that was another totally different churches on the east and churches on the West. In my opinion, here, in my experience, I should say they are very different the way church happens. So we were used to the more traditional when we were in Arkansas and even Vermont. Very traditional you sing, you sit down, you whatever, and then over here nobody's in the pulpit, there's more praise music. That was all new to me at that time. But they had an amazing youth group, which is why we picked that church.
Speaker 2:So many people the same age as the girls, but most of them were going to Campion Academy once, because that's yeah, we were in Colorado Springs at the time and so then Nadja wanted to go to Campion. We did a homeschool group here for a year, two years in Colorado Springs, one year with Nadja, and then she went to Campion and then the next year all of them went to Campion, all three of them. So that's when I went to work, because it's an expensive school, right, but it was a great experience at the church. We had a really good time and I've always been involved in church. I like to participate, I help or lead Bible what do you call it?
Speaker 2:Vacation Bible schools and things like that, or helping create a world when the girls were little. But then when we moved to, when we were in the church in Colorado Springs one time the pastor the new pastor. It was soon after we got there that we had a new pastor, because they were in transition. When we got there, she invited us to her house for a Bible study, for a woman's Bible study, and they were studying Beth Moore and I was like what? At the Adventist church. Yeah.
Speaker 2:They're studying Beth Moore, but it was great. I liked it so much and I think all of those things just kept, like you said, expanding. Okay, there's more to this than what I've only heard most of my life.
Speaker 1:Okay, we're going to take a real quick break from the episode and I'm going to bring in my friend, Stephanie. Stephanie, what's up today?
Speaker 4:How are you doing? Hi, rich, I'm good. How are you?
Speaker 1:I'm doing real awesome. How long has it been since you've been rocking with Freedom From Sin, the gospel?
Speaker 4:I would say about 10 months 10 months, not that long.
Speaker 1:What would you say that understanding your freedom has done in changing the way you live your life?
Speaker 4:What would you say that understanding your freedom has done in changing the way you live your life. Every single thing, pretty much everything. Everything the way I breathe, the way I create myself, the way I feel, everything. I honestly don't know one thing.
Speaker 1:But you've dedicated time, money, energy to getting this message to go forward. You want more people to hear it. Why is that so important to you?
Speaker 4:Oh, my world. I think people just need to know how good this news are for them, and I know I am so much. I am very blessed by it and I would like to give that opportunity for people to even give that option, right To even say, oh, this is for me, or this is not for me.
Speaker 1:This, guys we operate based on y'all donating, giving to the ministry. Every single dollar goes to getting this message out there and partner with us. We want to keep spreading this message that Jesus has actually accomplished something through his death, burial and resurrection. Go to loverealityorg, slash give and, yeah, partner with us and let's keep this thing going forward. Thanks so much for joining, stephanie.
Speaker 4:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:All right, let's get back to the episode, so I want to fast forward a little bit. The kids go through, they're getting married, they're growing up, they're doing their thing. Tell me about what was going on 2020, 2021, when we ran across you, and how you came across this thing and how you took it at first this thing and how you took it at first.
Speaker 2:We left Colorado Springs in 2016. We moved here to Castle Rock and we're in a small church plant enjoying it. 2020 hits. That was a mess for all of us everywhere. A lot of division in the church over it happened everywhere. Math no math. Vaccine no vaccine, vaccine, sit here, don't sit here, whatever.
Speaker 1:And so then 2020 we're not sure if we really shown very bright during that time. I'm not sure if we were doing very awesome.
Speaker 2:It seemed like just people getting mad at each other and division yeah, not at all, and I don't think it's healed much for some people, but for sure. But so 2021, we went, Nadja and her husband Joe. They lived in Lincoln for a long time After she graduated from high school. They moved to Lincoln in 2004. And she was there for until two years ago really. And so, 2021, we went to visit that summer, like we usually do, and we were driving. No, before we went to visit, she called me on the phone. We were just talking, and she said, out of the blue, she just says Mom, do you know that the Bible doesn't call us sinners? We're not sinners, Something like that. I was like I didn't tell her, I don't agree with you. And I think I quoted a verse from the Old Testament that I can't even remember now what it was, but something about everybody's real sin, or whatever, Anyway. And so she's like no, you should listen. She used to be a pastor at the time. I guess he had preached about it herald.
Speaker 2:yeah, and she was going to send me the link, and I think she did send me the link, but I never got to the link. And then, soon after that, we went and visited them and in person, and so then when we on our way back, she didn't say anything when we were there, but I can't remember. Anyway, when we are on our way back seven hours, we have a drive back. She she sent me a text and she said I think you enjoyed it, something like that, and it was a link to Jonathan Leonardo's episode on the death of life podcast. And so I said we have seven hours to go home. We want to listen.
Speaker 1:Hop it in.
Speaker 2:So we started it and I was like wow, I mean, it just made sense to me, it just made sense.
Speaker 1:Had you ever heard Jonathan preach before or knew anything about him?
Speaker 2:I didn't know who he was. None of that, because he was at Campion before that.
Speaker 1:But you guys, your kids, have been long gone from there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he did a wave one at Campion. Yeah, and I wish I had heard about it, and so there was that. He was somewhere else too, in Denver, and I didn't hear about it before that. Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but actually that weekend she had sent when we left her house. I don't know if it was the weekend or not, but we had spent a weekend there. We were at church and I always go to Criterol with the kids because they were little, so I think it might've been James at Criterol at the time. So I sat there in Criterol and next to me sat this very tall lady and then he was not there next to her, and so they. Then she starts talking to me and she asked me about my family or whatever. And she said, oh, you're not this mom. And I said, yeah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then she said, do you have any other kids?
Speaker 2:And talking through Criteral, and she said and I said, yeah, I have a daughter who is in. I have two more daughters, one, it's in in alaska, and she said I only know one person in alaska and her name, and his name is tim matthew and it's felicia. And I was like, oh, yeah, that is my daughter. So of all the people she knows a lot, because she's like, wow, what a small world. And then she said something else and then and I said, yeah, and then I have a youngest daughter and in denver and I guess she hadn't made the connection that I can't remember between Nadja and Jocelyn yet, but she had been talking to Jocelyn through Flora had introduced them anyway. And so I said Jocelyn, you're Jocelyn's mom, I've been talking to her on the phone, so anyway, she knew my family and so she would make that, we'd make that little connection.
Speaker 2:So then when I started listening to this podcast and then there's Richard Young. He was the host and I was like Richard Young. But I remember Richard Young in college. I didn't know you much at all, I just had seen you and I had heard about you and you were impressed. I was so impressed. I was like what's going?
Speaker 1:on. You were impressed to stay away from me. You knew my parents from.
Speaker 2:I didn't know your parents. You knew about them, I never met them. Yeah, I knew about them, I never met them. But the one time I did see you I think Julie and Ken were in Lincoln that weekend too it must have been a parent weekend or something and that's when I made the connection that everybody know each other. And anyways, she said I listened to the podcast. I can't. I've listened to the podcast at least three times, Just that one episode.
Speaker 1:Jonathan's episode. Yes, it's one of my favorites. I need to listen to it again. I love it so much.
Speaker 2:It really is and he is so genuine and he's so heartfelt and it all just made sense to me. And but we were like, wow, jose, and I didn't even really say much about it, we were just listening. And then somehow, I don't know, then I scroll after it was over, just scroll to see what else was on there, and I saw a name that I recognized and it was troy beans. So there was some episode with a special guest, troy beans where I saw at least that's the one I listened to next and I was like what this is, that one's just sex is.
Speaker 2:The whole thing is about sex and I was like, why are they talking about? We went from jonathan through this, but anyway we got home, and then that it must have been close to sabbath by the time we get home, like on the, a Thursday or Friday maybe, and so that Sabbath we went to our church and Jose was the elder in charge, so he was up there, whatever, making his call, and then he said some things and then he said and then he said we were visiting our daughter and we were driving, and then we heard this podcast and we heard this message and he said a few things. He didn't mention names or the name, nothing. And he some of the things that stood out to him about the, the message that Jonathan has said on the podcast. And after church this couple comes to us and they went to him and he said were you talking about Jonathan Leonardo, cause he never said the name? And he says, yes, do you know? Yes, the only reason I'm still at church is because of Jonathan Leonardo, and it was Matt Maida Teller.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, anyway. So they were really excited. They said we've been trying to get them over here to Colorado and I said really, that sounds really interesting, I'm interested. And that was like in the summer, like I said. And then in August our daughter said mom Jonathan's coming to Denver he's actually coming to see his girlfriend, but but, but they put a little thing together so we could have some meetings. They will have some meetings. So if you want to come in and say, oh, I'm coming for sure, and so that was my introduction to the whole then people would come in. Jayla came to us and was like what is your relationship to St? I've never heard that before. And I was like what?
Speaker 1:That weekend that was that was Jonathan was already married at that time, I know, but we didn't know that Nobody knew that Jonathan was married. I remember that Sabbath distinctly. I remember he I don't know were you at his sermon or did you just come for the afternoon. I was there the whole time, every time he spoke, he preached hard during the 11 o'clock hour and the whole sermon was did he actually do it? Did Jesus actually free us? From sin.
Speaker 1:And then we were in the little chapel and I remember seeing I was sitting on the right side, near the front, and you guys were over on the left side, middle, and Russell was doing music and Sarah was doing music and this is when I have this conversation with Sarah. So much stuff happened that day and I remember going over and meeting you guys like for the first time and yo, we know some of the same people but I really wanted to know is this stuff kind of landing for you guys? What do you think? And I don't know what? I remember you were obviously polite and nice and you weren't going to be like, ah, I disagree with some of this stuff, but what was starting to really land or what were you considering at that point? After hearing him that whole day, just go for it.
Speaker 2:Everything was landing, everything was making sense, everything was feeling like why isn't anybody else talking about this? Why the freedom from sin? For sure. But I have to say before that, before we even went to that meeting, once I heard that podcast, then I researched, jonathan, right, I went to YouTube and I found some things.
Speaker 2:And there was the thing at whatever that church is in Oregon yeah, pbc, and so I remember I was on it. Then I started listening to the whole thing and, of course, probably the first one is the first one the prodigal son.
Speaker 1:First one is it's Romans 6, and then is the prodigal son, is the second one.
Speaker 2:So the one I remember I was on the treadmill, I was just walking and watching the thing on the anyway YouTube, and when he said the problem with the prodigal son is we always focus on the fact that he was prodigal, when he, the whole time he was son. He was always son. I yelled. I was on the train, I was like yes, that's it. We're always children, always children. It was just out loud and I just couldn't get enough. I just was watching and then we went to this thing and that particular message on sabbath really hit me, because he was saying we always say and I'm paraphrasing and I can't remember exactly how we said it, but it was like we're sinners in need of a Savior, but do you have a Savior? Do we have a Savior? And so that really struck me. That really struck me. Yes, that was the whole purpose. He came, he is our Savior, so I do have a Savior. So therefore, he saved me and I'm His daughter Always, no matter what. And so that was really probably the most important part for me.
Speaker 2:To start was identity for sure. Identity to me, and I think that's one of the I love reality and all the things. I go to, as many things as I can go, but I think the best thing that love reality has going for them is showing people their identity. Who you are in Christ changes the way you look at everything else in your life. It changed everything the way I look at it.
Speaker 2:In my life, things aren't. I've never been a downer over things, necessarily. That I can't remember. Anyway. I've always been pretty positive. I always wanted to learn, I always wanted to know more about things, but when things happen, I sometimes I could take it more personal. Okay, maybe I need to just back off from this or not do that or not say this or not say that, and yes, we still need to be careful about things like that. But knowing that my identity is not. It's not my kids, it's not Jose, it's not the church I go to, it's not my friends they are an amazing part of my life, but they are not who I am or who defines me or who I live for, as much as I love every single one of them. That, for me, was huge and I think I heard a lot of that weekend.
Speaker 1:At this point that weekend there was some controversy over love reality. There was Harold getting going to a different church. I had, I don't think, my podcast where I explained all this stuff had been out yet. That didn't come out for a year but there was stuff with Eddie and all that stuff. When you heard about this controversy, that didn't slow you down at all. You were like this doesn't make sense.
Speaker 2:I really didn't know about it right away to begin with, and I and I knew there was things happening with harold, but I wasn't. I didn't really I can't say that I knew at that time everything that was happening with harold and so, no, I didn't, it didn't bother me at all. I think maybe because I had been with controversial groups before, it didn't bother me at all what I, what they, but it didn't bother me. As far as I need to be careful, I should say that it's not like I was okay, I need to be aware of. It was more like that's really sad that they're coming after these people, because then soon after that then I heard other things, like then somebody said something about the group I can't remember if it was to me or to Jose or to what and then so we Googled or whatever it was, and then that whole article came from what happens, things that had happened in Lincoln.
Speaker 2:But when we read it we were like we've watched all these sermons, we were over there for a whole weekend. This is not what they're saying. I never heard them say what these people are saying on this article. So that cleared it up really for me. But yes, I did look it up in the sense of I did go back and I read the verses that Jonathan was pointing out to you. It wasn't like I was blind Okay, sure, whatever. But I think lines. Okay, sure, whatever. But I think just having more of an open mind through all the process of the, the non-denominational bible studies and that kind of stuff, just really helped me be more open I think that weekend I'm not sure if it was that weekend that we, like all of us pretty much just clicked with your family specifically.
Speaker 1:And we came back what? Five months later? And we stayed at your house for the whole week and all of us got sick Christian myself, Eddie, Jayla, Jonathan, Tiffany was already living in town and we went to the Castle Rock Church and we were there for a whole week and we were up almost every night talking about these things and it just felt. It felt like you had always been like a part of us, it always. It just felt like you were family immediately, you and Jose and I don't know. That week week, man, a lot of stuff happened that week did you just feel? What did you feel as it felt since that August or September? Then we went to Denver. You guys were pretty much family and ever since then you've just been rocking with us. What do you feel like you were growing in? That week we did Jonathan's second podcast in your dining room that's his more theological one and it just felt, man, like you guys were all the way in, like you were just receiving all this stuff. What do you feel like you were growing in personally?
Speaker 2:I was seeing. I had to say that weekend in in denver, when tellers were talking to jonathan about coming to casserole because they're the ones that pretty much planned it I said I remember saying to jonathan you need to come. When you come, you have a place to stay so you can definitely stay with us Anyway. So that was amazing for me because I was actually I had been struggling with relationships, not struggling within relationships, but like not having close friends. That's what I felt and I have to say that. Then just the whole talks, all the talks were just very inspiring to me and just growing in in my assurance of salvation for sure, and growing in that that. But then also watching you guys, how you were talking to each other, communicating, expressing emotions and what happened tonight and this person and and we pray with that and then praying and singing it was.
Speaker 2:It was a totally different type of church for me. It was a total, in church as in community, which is what the people are, the church is the people right, and how we relate to each other. It was more like it was family. It was like everybody was part of this. It was people of one mind, one purpose, like what are you reading Acts at the beginning of Acts right, not the whole book, but the beginning of Acts.
Speaker 2:And so that was huge for me because I actually I was actually craving that. I was craving belonging and being part of a family, and so I remember expressing that. And the next when I expressed that because I was was that one. I was just blown away by the way. You guys were talking about the experience of the night after preaching and you were praying for certain people and you were singing and I just remember getting started crying and the next words out of jonathan's mouth was like we're going to idaho in a, you guys are coming with it, and I don't know if you remember that because you didn't go to Idaho.
Speaker 1:I didn't know I was FOMO and I wanted to go so bad.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we went that weekend. That was great. I think that's what I was drawing was like I was seeing that there's the possibility. There was not just I have assurance of salvation. That there's the possibility. There was not just I have assurance of salvation. I know who I am in Christ. I was seeing a group of people that will be vulnerable with each other but also accountable to each other, and that, to me, is just. The whole relationship was really important to me Because, like I said before, that before 2020, let's just put it that way Before 2020, I was the person who would invite who would have the women's Bible studies at my house. I would get all the books. I would invite all the people. They would come here, we'll eat. And then 2020 happened and nobody was going anywhere, and so I was craving that quite a bit, and so to just have you guys here and watch that it just really filled my soul.
Speaker 1:Man, now you're making me miss being on tour and making me. I haven't seen Jonathan in person in a couple of years. It's been a long time.
Speaker 1:I see him every other day Like we FaceTime almost if not every day every other day, like we FaceTime almost if not every day every other day but I haven't seen him in person and just going out there and doing ministry and loving people. And, yeah, I think one of the things that ties this group together is that we do have this one purpose we desperately want people to understand that they're free from sin, that they are safe, that they are forgiven, that they have every spiritual blessing now, and so that spirit ties us together in a way, like in a deep way, and so when people believe this and that their lives like when they grab onto it, man, there's nothing else that we want to see and I guess you can see it on the after party at internet church or on the Bible study. We, we desperately want people to receive this. Um, since that weekend in January or whatever if that was 2022 or whatever you have, you guys have just been a part of our community, and not just a part of our community, but a part of our church on the inside, like you've been family to us.
Speaker 1:What do you just see? Like why is this feel like? Now we're in like the mid roll where I'm like why is this so important to you? But I'm like, seriously, why do you guys still show up to everything and want to support and be a part of this, like this gospel? It seems it has changed your life Like we don't see, because we didn't know you when you were young kids and doing stupid stuff and not knowing how to live. We met you after your kids are all married, but yet this thing has still changed your lives, it seems. Why is this so important? And explain that to me.
Speaker 2:In the world we live, with all the crazy things that happen all around you. To know that Jesus, he's got you, god's on your side, he's going to take care of us no matter what. To know that his spirit lives in us. To know and that's one of the things that I was thinking earlier the Bible cover to cover. I've started many times, but I've never read it cover to cover.
Speaker 2:But I've read quite a bit of it and I've read a lot of the epistles and I remember and I'm thinking, oh, this is beautiful, blah, blah, blah. But then there's so many verses that I hear over and over again. At the beginning, when I started going to the Bible studies Because Jocelyn was then pivotal, youngest into yeah, this is Bible study of this day, and she would send me the links, and so then I was like what, this is happening all the time? So I go in and go, if it's a what? Just to read all of those verses through that lens of my identity in Christ as his child, as his daughter, as the person. If there was only one person that Jesus would have died for, he would have right, he would have died just for me.
Speaker 2:Just looking at those verses and thinking, okay, like, like, for example and I don't have the whole verse but just like when people talking about free from sin and people get stuck in that, and I honestly at the beginning first heard it, I was like what exactly does that mean? And then I felt, maybe I automatically thought, if you're free from it, then you're not doing it, you're not sinning, you're not committing that particular sin anymore. But that's not really even what it means, right? And I was thinking more of sinless. And then just the verses as far as the east is from the west. I have removed your transgressions from you. I have read that verse, I don't know how many times. I've never thought of it like he actually had as really, as far as the east is from the west that's what he said or consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God. I have read that. Okay, but what does that really mean? I've never thought of it like.
Speaker 2:It's really my thoughts and my mind, what I need to keep connected in the sense of, like the renewing of our mind, the changing of habits, those habits that we've had for all of our lives, that keep us in bondage. Our thoughts can keep us in bondage and and for me, every time I join a bible study or I see, like at the after party, somebody's light bulb come on, that's just wonderful, that's just that just feeds my soul and I want more and more people to hear it, because I don't, I still, till this day, I don't, at least in the churches I have been to, I don't hear it. I don't. It's not the main thing. It's. The main thing is what we must do and not what Jesus has done. So that's really why we, I think, stick around and, of course, for community. I love all the people. I love to see all the faces.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you probably see the Love Reality community people more than you see the local church, because the local church you just go to once a week. We're on here almost every night, if not every other night. Where am I gonna try to take you back? Let's go back to arkansas, where it feels pretty, pretty judgmental and your mindset is just focused on how you're going to keep the Sabbath and how you're going to stay away from that evil chicken. I don't know If you got to minister to yourself, if you got to see this lady with these three kids and just trying to figure it out and you got to pour life into you. What would you say to old Bernice?
Speaker 2:just start to relax about what other people say or think about you Because that's also, I think, huge in our culture and love. Love people differently. Just love them instead of judge them. One of the examples that just came to my mind was I was teaching federal and then helpers changed. Like there's a different person that was going to be my assistant or helper or whatever you call it, and she was wearing a lot of makeup and I was really concerned, Not for her, I was really concerned because the kids are watching this person with makeup. What kind of example. That's terrible. And so just relax. Jesus looks at the heart and in the way that you are judged, you're judging. You'll be judged. Just love people and Jesus loves you so you can love others. That's what I would say.
Speaker 1:You've certainly loved us. You are like a pillar of our community and it's people like you and Jose that make this thing happen. You're a blessing. When we've been leading up to this podcast in these last couple weeks you were trying to tell me, but I knew you have and I know you have an amazing story and you're just a blessing to us and a testimony to us. So thank you so much for coming on here and sharing your heart with us.
Speaker 2:You're a blessing to me every day.
Speaker 1:Praise the Lord. Thank you, man I love. I feel like she's my aunt, literally, because we have such a similar background. And just finding out that the gospel is so good and having that change your life, even when your life is going good, it's just a blessing. If that's where you're at, you want to know how is this better than what I have? This prayer is for you, father Open my eyes and reveal to me what the gospel really is. What is the inheritance that I have with the saints? What is the inheritance that I have with the saints? I want to see it and believe it and receive it, and I pray these things in Jesus' name, amen.
Speaker 1:If you want to hang out with us, you want to hang out with T-Benny on Internet Church. We do it every other Friday night. Go to loverealityorg, check out the Internet Church Circle, sign up for that. We will send you a link. It is a party. The after party is awesome and we just vibe out in the spirit and people are getting free from and they're seeing that sin has no power over them. Join us. It's a blast. Love y'all, appreciate y'all. Bye.