Summary: In this emotionally charged episode, we delve into Joyce's past, shaped by a conservative Hispanic church upbringing with a pastor father and a supportive mother. Navigating the maze of religious expectations, Joyce shares a compelling narrative of her quest for validation, often conflicting with her parents' wishes and impacting her self-worth and relationships, particularly her marriage. The story takes a poignant turn as Joyce recounts her painful encounter with infidelity, guilt, and the subsequent struggle to reclaim her identity in faith. Through the depths of despair, she emerges with a liberating truth about her identity in Christ, showcasing the transformative power of faith. Joyce's journey is a rollercoaster of emotions, from spiraling into darkness to ascending towards breakthrough moments. As the episode concludes, Joyce opens up about her profound transformation, battling self-loathing to embracing the truth and living in God's fullness. Her relentless pursuit of self-discovery culminates in a powerful tale of rediscovery, revival, and redemption, inviting listeners to join in this inspiring journey.
View more resources on our website
Timestamps:
0:00 - Religious Rules and Expectations
14:18 - Shame, Validation, and Self-Acceptance
18:50 - Effects of Negative Comments on Self-Worth
23:16 - Struggling With Identity and Relationships
34:48 - Emotional Struggles in Marriage Dynamics
47:03 - Identity Struggles and Loss of Purpose
50:32 - Struggling With Guilt and Infidelity
1:01:07 - Rediscovering Identity and Freedom in Faith
1:16:16 - Overcoming Lies, Sharing Truths
1:27:30 - Discovering the Holy Spirit's Guidance
1:32:53 - Living in the Fullness of God
1:36:05 - Message of Self-Worth and God's Love
Keywords: Faith, Identity, Redemption, Struggle, Spiritual Awakening, Resilience.
Summary: In this emotionally charged episode, we delve into Joyce's past, shaped by a conservative Hispanic church upbringing with a pastor father and a supportive mother. Navigating the maze of religious expectations, Joyce shares a compelling narrative of her quest for validation, often conflicting with her parents' wishes and impacting her self-worth and relationships, particularly her marriage. The story takes a poignant turn as Joyce recounts her painful encounter with infidelity, guilt, and the subsequent struggle to reclaim her identity in faith. Through the depths of despair, she emerges with a liberating truth about her identity in Christ, showcasing the transformative power of faith. Joyce's journey is a rollercoaster of emotions, from spiraling into darkness to ascending towards breakthrough moments. As the episode concludes, Joyce opens up about her profound transformation, battling self-loathing to embracing the truth and living in God's fullness. Her relentless pursuit of self-discovery culminates in a powerful tale of rediscovery, revival, and redemption, inviting listeners to join in this inspiring journey.
View more resources on our website
Timestamps:
0:00 - Religious Rules and Expectations
14:18 - Shame, Validation, and Self-Acceptance
18:50 - Effects of Negative Comments on Self-Worth
23:16 - Struggling With Identity and Relationships
34:48 - Emotional Struggles in Marriage Dynamics
47:03 - Identity Struggles and Loss of Purpose
50:32 - Struggling With Guilt and Infidelity
1:01:07 - Rediscovering Identity and Freedom in Faith
1:16:16 - Overcoming Lies, Sharing Truths
1:27:30 - Discovering the Holy Spirit's Guidance
1:32:53 - Living in the Fullness of God
1:36:05 - Message of Self-Worth and God's Love
Keywords: Faith, Identity, Redemption, Struggle, Spiritual Awakening, Resilience.
Are we starting the podcast now? or oh, we've been on the podcast, my brother Yo. Welcome to the Death to Life podcast. My name is Richard Young and before we get into today's podcast, I want to tell you about a gospel presentation that I want to give you early access to and on this podcast. I'm sure you've heard us talk about the love reality tour or love reality, and it is the vehicle that brought me a better, a crazy better understanding of the gospel and kind of what started me on the journey with this podcast. And before, if you wanted to, to really understand this whole thing, there was like 10 hours of sermons from my guy, jonathan, and in these last couple months, last several months, we have really tried to get it down to it's in much, it's much more digestible. You don't have to sit there for 10 hours and there's been so much time and money spent to make this program that I'm going to give you a little early access to. So, if you, if you want and this is kind of what I've been hyping up on as I've been talking about this the last couple weeks but I want you to take this number and you just text it hello or whatever, and it'll just jumpstart everything. It's 808-204-4372. That's 808-204-4372. Text hello to this number or just anything, and it'll jumpstart you on this journey. We'll send you a YouTube link and you watch. It's like a seven minute video of just an introduction to the gospel. So jump on that and we'd like your feedback. We're rolling this out kind of a little bit at a time and if you text back your feedback on the video, we would really, really really appreciate that. Just to the number that I just gave you so last time 808-204-4372. Man, I'd love for you. If you have questions about this, feel free to text me or direct message me on wherever you. However, you can get ahold of me and we'll do this thing. So I'm really really, really excited about this. But onto today's podcast. Man, this I want to urge you. Man, I want this thing to go viral. I want people to hear this message. This is Joyce and her testimony is unlike any other that I have heard. Her honesty is crazy. This podcast is. It runs through all the emotions and I just love it. I'm excited to listen to it again, but it's Joyce and I just take it in, buckle up, strap in. I appreciate you guys Love y'all. Here's the podcast.
Speaker 3:Yo Richard, are you about to do the podcast?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So I saw a very hardworking pastor and preacher who wanted to make sure that not only his flock was good but that his family was saved. I saw that dynamic coming from him. And then I saw the dynamic from my mom of someone who was very supportive of that preacher, who also wanted her children to be saved but was willing to do anything to support my father's ministry and then also being part of some ministry at church. So I saw a team for sure, until my dad moved up into administration and telepastoring but then started working for the conference and then for the union, and then it was less of a team and more of what they call an active independence. And so what I had seen is this great team that was very affectionate, and I was seeing this beautiful example of what it would look like when two people are for each other. Eventually, as their lives started to, they started to act more independently of each other. It became less that and more do what we have to do for the kids. But we're not necessarily cohesive as a couple, and then it turned into no, actually we don't really like each other very much. I'm hurting you, you're hurting me. We're both very hurt people. We continue to hurt each other, and then, eventually, they decided that it would be best if they were separate and divorced.
Speaker 1:So how old were you when that happened?
Speaker 3:I. What it was between the age of 13 and 16 is when the separation and the divorce took place. So very formative years for me.
Speaker 1:Mercy. So before that, when you you mentioned, your dad wanted to make sure his family was saved. How do you feel like he went about that?
Speaker 3:So that's such a great question. He did everything he could to instill in us all of the the right practices and habits on how to ensure that you, your kids, are not quote unquote lost, like they don't miss out on heaven. So everything from the regular having us in church three days a week, but also devotional every morning, and having us in Christian schools anytime where we felt, or he felt, like one of our actions or behaviors or decisions might lead to us missing out one day. So anytime he saw anything that scared him, he would make sure to you know, I mean he's you grew up in a certain era where it was pretty standard to, to you know, not spare the rod, but it was very much a. It was teaching us as much as he could about God and about the law and about the church and how we're supposed to like, act and live as Christians. But then also like if something were to happen, if we were to do something that scared him, and to thinking like, oh no, they might lose out, and he'd also make sure that we knew that we were scared of what was on the opposite side of that decision, if that makes sense. So there was, you know.
Speaker 1:Oh, that makes sense because Fear beast. In some ways I don't want to diss my family or my culture, but in some ways I think we have a similar culture because we're both Hispanic, Are you? You're 100% Dominican, or what?
Speaker 3:I am 100% Dominican.
Speaker 1:And I feel like the culture of the, the Hispanic church there's, it's conservative obviously and discipline is a huge thing to to have discipline, and it's all good intentions and it's all from a great heart. How did you, how did you, take to that?
Speaker 3:So as a kid I loved rules, like absolutely love them, because I liked having something that would tell me if you do these things you're good and if you don't do these things you're bad, or if you do the opposite of these things you're bad. And so I didn't mind the fact that there were some very strict and often stern expectations of me, but I only didn't mind them because I felt safe. I felt safe because I felt saved by the rules and by the laws that were put in place and so so as a child I didn't really think much of it, I didn't mind it. I grew older, into college years and into adulthood I realized that the safety I was finding in that structure mostly just made me still feel like I had to then earn my right standing in my family or in society or with God. So it worked until it didn't, because I was learning how to navigate my whole like value system and value assessments on myself and on other people based on whether or not they follow this set of rules. And so the intent and the heart of what my father, my parents, desired for me still to this day I appreciated. I do so. I know that they were what my dad ultimately always wanted for us was like he just wanted his kids to be in heaven. So I will always see that intent over any of the decisions he made, even if now, looking back, I could say like, hey, like, that probably wasn't the best angle to take, not for me at least. He's. I'm one of five children on the youngest, so we're all different, so there may be an oath for me for sure, developing my understanding of value through what I was able to do to earn it definitely messed me up for most of my adulthood. Yeah, until I met Jesus and he takes me.
Speaker 1:Well, let's talk about your how you got and maybe this is hard to remember, but how you got your value back then was your value in that you were being a good daughter and a good obedient girl, or what was your value?
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely, I mean I was. I was like the ultimate pick me girl I don't know if you're familiar with that term, but like someone who overtly or maybe not even overtly like is doing the right thing, so that on the outside, I am chosen because I am these good things, but also behind closed doors, I'm still wanting to be chosen for, like you know, offering parts of me to people that have no business having it, in the hopes that they would also choose me too. So there was always two sides of me, and there often is a people like me who are perfectionist. There's a side that we show and there's a side that we don't show, and so it's easy to hide, it's easy to experience shame. It's easy to have really high highs where you do meet your expectation of yourself or maybe what other people expect of you, and then, but those thoughts and that high is typically very soon replaced by a low of but you're not really that great, like there's all these things you don't do right, there's all these things that you should do. So it was always living between these two places of I'm good. No, I'm actually not that good. Let me try harder.
Speaker 1:So give me an example of of that, the shame, or that I'm not that good, like you were going along and things were cool as a kid and then, oh, maybe, maybe, that isn't true. What's an example of that? Sorry, you said again like an example of when you were kid and the shame like your value got shook by oh, maybe I'm not that good Like things were going cool, but then it wasn't going cool.
Speaker 3:That's a great question. So the first one that popped my head was so because I had already, from way too early, started to believe that I would. I would rather be loved and I would rather be adored and chosen than to be me, which led me to then feel like being me is actually not worthy of being loved or chosen or desired. So because of that, from a young age I already started to seek that affirmation from from boys. So when I was about 11 or 12 years old, I kissed my first boy, which for young girls like oh my gosh, but for me so feel like a boy wanted to kiss me, meant even a lot more and meant like OK, you are worthy and deserving of this person's affection and love. And so that happened. But somehow probably because you know I'm the pastor's daughter and the news gets around, so you're exciting for some people the news got back to my parents and it was a really big to do and so they sat me down. I remember I walked into my living room and my parents sat me down and they were really upset that, you know, the pastor's daughter was in. Her story was being gossiped about by the adults in the church and it was being shared and they were embarrassed and I think they felt shame as well. And that was also put on me, because I think the idea in the moment was, yeah, we can shame her and so never doing this again. Then again we'll save her, she won't continue to make these decisions that might lead her to missing out on heaven or salvation and so, but in the moment, I was terrified, completely embarrassed and again an ashamed that people were talking about me in that way, and so from that moment on, it didn't stop me from making those decisions. I actually continue to make decisions like that because rules and the law does not transform like what I thought was my identity. It never does that. It actually does the opposite. What it maybe want to do was just to hide what I was doing, and so then I started to share less and less with my parents or lie about what I was doing, instead of actually being honest and maybe having a conversation about why I felt the need to seek that validation from guys. So yeah, so that was definitely. I actually haven't told that story in forever, but that was something that is very vivid to me now and I think helped to form this idea of hide all the things that you're not proud of, but keep doing them, and then only show the things that make you or that allow you to be perceived as perfect or good.
Speaker 1:So in the moment where your parents are talking to you in the living room and you're feeling like super embarrassed and ashamed, did you feel like at that moment you would try, and then later on you're like I need this affirmation too much. Or were you like these people don't know what they're talking about and I'm going to do whatever I want?
Speaker 3:It definitely wasn't. These people don't know what they're talking about. Because I wanted to do what they wanted me to do with them, because I wanted to trust them enough to say I don't need this right. But I didn't really understand what it meant for me in that moment to desire that validation and so, even though I wanted to, again, I wanted to be a good girl more than anything. I wanted to be seen as a good girl more than anything, and I wanted to follow the rules in one of my parents, to be proud of me and to love me. But there was still this strong pull towards people will like you more if you do this. So and that pull was stronger than the desire to be good was the desire? The desire to be chosen was stronger than the desire to be good.
Speaker 1:This is so sad, I know. There's a really good ending to the story, I promise I know, but it's just like oh my gosh, yeah, because you just wanted to be Okay. You said you wanted this thing. You want to be.
Speaker 3:I wanted to be like, desired and chosen, more than I wanted to be me, and and then that inevitably for me led to Deciding that me was not worthy to be then chosen and desired.
Speaker 1:And so I've heard you say this before, but then it was your body that was. That was the thing that was gonna get you to be desired from what I understand. Yeah, before.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for sure, there were a lot of ways, but that was one of the main ones.
Speaker 1:So how did that? How did that work? How did it? Did it pay off? Did you like? I Know this. I don't want to queue you up for that story, but this story of those mean kids.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, it's important.
Speaker 1:That's so yeah.
Speaker 3:Go, go into that, it's important, yeah, and I'll tell you, this is one of the things that like through, like freedom. I love how spirit reveals these things to you, but for the longest time I wondered why the enemy would come at me with just the same lie, like it wouldn't manifest in different ways, but the same lie over and over again. And it finally hit me a while back that when I am so hyper focused on Myself and what people think of me, I am very selfish. I am just the most selfish person because I can only see my own Moment and emotion and experience. And so when I become that selfish because I'm so focused on do people like me, do they not? Do they see me as good or not? It keeps me from loving other people hard, and so he would so much rather me stay in that lie. And I say that to say that that's why it's the story is important. It happened so long ago, but I was so young and it's it stayed with me. And I think that's one of those moments were, you know, the enemy was like alright, like this, here you go, like this is what we're gonna build on for the rest of your life, and it wasn't until I, you know, hit that moment with the truth that I was actually released from the chains of believing those same lies. But but yeah, so the story you're referring to is that when I was around the same age around 10, 11 years old I had some friends who were just a little bit older than me in church maybe 12, 13, 14 and they had been having a conversation when I wasn't there for it about the bodies of the girls that were around my age and they were assigning them Value, like monetary value, and that you were worth a certain amount If you looked a certain way, if they considered you beautiful, they considered you Developed in a certain way, and so they already started saying you know, this girl is really rich and wealthy and this girl is not so rich, she's poor because she's, you know, whatever, not as cute, not as, not as developed. And then I just came back from like lunch one Saturday afternoon and walked into this conversation and one of the boys who I think I might have even had a crush on, you know, previously, which probably magnified it even more walked up to me and was like you are the beggar who begs the beggars. And I didn't know what that meant at the time, because I just walked into this conversation and then I I Eventually the girl explained to me, because I asked them, like, what is he talking about? So they explained to me what it meant and I just remember bursting into tears and my girlfriends came over and they did their very best to comfort me and encourage me and, you know, speak negative things about him, you know to try to to support me in that moment and make sure they knew they were on my side. But at that moment I think that was the very first time I actually Got something wrong with me, like I was perfectly fine, happy, go, lucky girl, no care in the world, assuming I was Perfectly fine. And then this moment made me feel like, oh, I'm not okay, okay, so what can I now do to make sure that I am okay, that I'm chosen by someone like him or by him, or that I am now seen as valuable? And then it became this whole trek to Now prove that I'm not a beggar, that I am not Poor, that I am a fourth. It's kind of spiral that a control from there.
Speaker 1:And so you're. So, as you're growing older and you're, like you say, 13 to 16, and your parents are struggling with this thing, did you know it was having an effect on you at that time, or was it later that you were able to look back? Talk to me about, about that.
Speaker 3:No, I did not know and in the moment, or like during that age range that you're referring to, I thought I was acting completely appropriately for a girl, my age, having the correct desires and acting based off of the correct things, or like I had no idea that what I was doing was reinforcing the lie over and over and over again, as I, even at a young age you know, we, you know when you're little you have boyfriends, but you don't really. You're not dating. You know, but at 12, 13, all the way through high school, always with boyfriends, always dating, always spending that time, but I did not feel I would feel like this will reactions when things were asked of me and Required of me that felt like we're outside of my comfort zone, what I wanted to do, but even still, I still believe like this is what it takes. This is, this is the kind of thing I need to offer these guys. This is the type of relationship they want, and I can't deal with the pain of a Breakup or them not wanting me, and especially, this is the time my parents divorced as well. So for me in these moments it was like things are really hard at home. My siblings, for the most part were older and out of the house, and so for a lot of us it was just me and my parents even though I had four older siblings and In those moments it just felt impossible to sit in what was going on at home. And so I clung to these moments where someone could say to me you know, I want you, even though what it typically was tied to I only want you because this is what you can offer me. So I did.
Speaker 1:I had no understanding of what the lie I was reinforcing in my own life, until later on when I was met, to the end of myself pretty much so Is it all kind of comp, compartmentalized, like you have church over here and your dad is still a pastor and he's like God loves you, and then you have, like your practical real life. That's saying Feeding you these lies, like the enemy is feeding you these lies. Did those crisscross at all? Did it? Did your value ever come, or was it just? This is this and this is this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they did not cross over and I think that maybe is Part of why it lasted as long as it did. I didn't. I didn't really know how those two things were connected. I didn't know how value and identity were connected to what I understood about God or how he saw me. So I had been hearing my whole life Jesus loves you. Of course I was born into this thing, hearing my whole life things about being free from sin or being free from sin, or I think so that affects. But no, I did not connect the two of them at all in my in my head, in my life my relationships were one thing and God was a whole other thing, although I still considered myself like for sure. I loved God, I was a believer, but I I definitely did not know much about who he was and his character and how he saw me. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Wow, so you get out of high school. Sounds like you had several relationships that had some success and then, ultimately, at the end, did not, and you're moving on to college. How do you feel like as you're moving into college, where, as you're growing up, with some of these things being left in the past a little bit, or how do you feel your mindset is was going into this different stage of your life?
Speaker 3:Um, I think it's just got worse for sure, as I grew older and then was now on my own and independent and no longer had to Take the same precautions as I did when I was living under my dad's roof. And so, as now a girl becoming an adult, I had multiple opportunities to feed into my perfectionism In being in leadership positions in college, which I did and I loved, but again, because I didn't have the truth of who I was, it just further deeply ingrained, like you're doing this to be loved and to be admired, and then plenty of opportunity to give into moments of Allowing Someone to dehumanize me or Allowing myself to be in those spaces where someone only sees me as what I can offer. So those moments actually only happened more often as I got older and even in, you know, in growing older and and spending more time in the Bible and Spending more time in Bible classes in college, as they require you to do those two things. Those two parts of me were still very separate. I couldn't see myself in the gospel, I couldn't see myself in the narrative, and so I could not connect the two. It was God and Jesus over here and my relationships over here. I didn't know how they were intertwined at all, did you feel?
Speaker 1:Like guilt from these relationships. Did that somehow tie it back to God and Jesus, or was it pretty much I've got to do what I have to do over here to feel like I have value? So there's not as much guilt. I definitely felt plenty of guilt and shame for sure.
Speaker 3:But I thought that that's what I needed to feel to like never do it again. So I guess, in that way, yeah, it did tie it back to God and that I was pretty sure that God was, you know, looking down at those moments and saying like that's not okay, but I believed it wasn't okay. But I believed it wasn't okay mostly because it was what I was told not to do, meaning like it was it wasn't from a space of God. Looking down and saying, like my daughter, like baby face my family called the baby face. Like you, you don't need to do that. Like if you only knew how I see you and the value I've imparted to you, like you wouldn't need to do that. But I wasn't seeing in that way. I was seeing as, like these are the rules, you broke them, so go ahead and experience shame and guilt so that that will bring you back to not doing it again. As it wasn't. It wasn't like, oh, this loving father loving me, back into this understanding. It was very much like don't make him angry, like don't make him be mad at you, so stop doing those things.
Speaker 1:So similar to the moment in the living room where your parents are just like you kiss the 1112 year the kid and there's room about you. The shame and guilt didn't stop you then and the shame and guilt that now you're feeling and you think maybe it's from God is not really curbing the desire to feel valued. Is that what I'm hearing you say?
Speaker 3:No, it was not, and that sounds really mean when you put it down like man. Guilt and shame didn't even get you to stop. No, it didn't like. That's how strongly I believe that that's where I found my value, like the selfishness in me was willing to like, hurt people, like when I was I think that I can say this now as a completely free person in Jesus and like complete evidence of a transform heart, because when I was in high school and in college, I'm pretty sure I cheated on almost every boyfriend I had, because every moment where I felt like this is over, I had to find someone else to take their place. That is where my need for validation, those were the lengths, the depths of my selfishness. And so, yeah, hearing you say that I'm like man, that's really selfish. But it's true, I was really selfish Because, even though it was coming from a space of I don't feel enough, like it was coming from this deep hurt of there's something wrong with me. It was pushing me to this place of desperation where I would then actually hurt other people to make myself feel good and then I would hide it. And so I was living multiple lives. Multiple lives, it seemed like to the like, unknown to anyone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm not saying it to make you like it's bad. I think the point of it is that guilt and shame is never effective. It never is, and if it, if God used guilt and shame to change us, he would be working against himself like it's never effective. It is in a moment, in the moment, like I was talking with my family about this and we were talking about raising kids and how shaming somebody in the moment is very effective. Like my son's name is John John. If I'm like John John, how could you? He will stop right then and he'll feel bad and later that will turn into resentment. It will not actually effectively change him. It will stop him in that moment. So you're sitting in the living room and in that moment you're like, yeah, I don't want to do this thing, or you cheat on your boyfriend and you feel guilt about it and you're like, yeah, I know that this isn't the right way, but that guilt and the shame never changes somebody and story after story of I felt like part of my story is one day I was going to feel bad enough to finally stop something. No, like that's not how it works. Like people just get exposed and like who is the mayor? Or the guy running for mayor in New York City and his wife was on Hillary's staff and he got it's Anthony Weiner. He got exposed literally for sending pictures and the embarrassment was epic proportions, and then later on he did it again like that. What so? My point isn't, man, you are selfish, joyce. My point is that enemy was trying to give you that. It was never God right.
Speaker 3:Yeah for sure, definitely. And my thing was, I used to think that I was going to grow out of it, like I was going to grow out of the need to do that, the need to lie, the need to move on, the need to have someone backfill, but I'd never grew out of that. Because it's not. It was like, yeah, we'll get to that.
Speaker 1:So now you're in college and, like you're having success at the beginning of relationships and 100% failure towards the end of relationships, like because unless you end up getting married and staying with the person forever, your relationships usually end in a in a breakup right. I mean it's like 100% of the time they would yeah so that's what's going on. How are you adding that up? What were you taking from all of that as you're moving through? What was it saying about yourself?
Speaker 3:It was only just reinforcing the pattern, reinforcing the lie, reinforcing the desire to self-medicate because of the high that I was getting from finding my validation from those relationships. So it was. It wasn't like I was. I mean, I was probably learning things going from one relationship to another, but it was really just mostly like okay, that one didn't go, well, let's go to the next one, like that's just, that's final one that works right, final one that sticks. And I didn't really know at the time like what it would look like when you find someone that you're ready to marry or whatever. But I just figured that eventually, like most of the people who've gone before me, I would eventually find someone that I wanted to be with, enough that I was compatible with enough, that I loved enough to to settle down and marry and, like I said, eventually grow out of what I was doing before. But you can't, you can't grow out of that kind of thing. You have to, you have to get a whole new thing.
Speaker 1:So when did you and I don't know this part of your story when did you meet your first husband?
Speaker 3:then, I met him in one of my last years of school. I was 20 years old.
Speaker 1:You're 20 years old, yeah.
Speaker 3:I was 20 years old, in college, and I had met him and I had been just coming out of another relationship and but what made me feel like okay, he's the one, was like a lot of like you know, levels of compatibility and things that I was looking for but mostly just came back to. You know, this is a man that affirms this desire to be wanted, affirms this desire to be loved, to be chosen, and on top of that, you know, it seems like we're pretty compatible. So, like he must be it, he must be the one. But yeah.
Speaker 1:So yeah, say as much or as little as you want about how that went.
Speaker 3:The relationship, yeah, oh, okay. So yeah, in in my limited understanding of my own limiting beliefs about myself and about God, it was perfect. We didn't have very many issues until the towards the end we had gotten engaged. And then there was this limbo situation of like will, they won't, they, are they still going to get married or they're not, because he was doing a lot of like new things with work and I felt very not desired and so I was like, well, I guess we'll just not get married. But eventually he's like, no, no, no, I do want to marry you. And then we spent a year and a half or so engaged and then eventually got married and but for the most part it seemed yeah, it seemed pretty perfect. I don't remember it being something where I ever necessarily doubted that that he was the one, that there were any red flags or anything like that in our relationship. I mean, we feel like we wouldn't last or anything like that. It seemed like, honestly, just seem like this is the way it's supposed to go. This is the way you know the fairy tale you meet, you fall in love, you get married. That's kind of how it went for us.
Speaker 1:It's so interesting. I was hanging out with a bunch of people this weekend and as I look back on my relationship and they're looking back at you know their different relationships Like there were so many red flags for me in my relationship. Like I said to somebody this week, if Natalie and I had only figured out how to get along, we knew that we would be able to get married, like just be in the same room together for like longer than 30 minutes, but we were crazy about each other, just crazy about each other, and so we're just like man if we could just figure out how to be nice to each other, then this thing might be a thing. And that I hear you're like, you're like no, everything was cool, everything was. And so it makes me like, makes me second guess all the compatibility, it makes me second guess all of the. Yeah, I had a friend and this is before I was married and like I was always asking my married friends like yo, what's the key, bro? Like how'd you know, how did you do that? Yeah, and this guy was one of my better friends and he was like Richard, you have to have something in common with your, with your wife. And he was like, really like what? He was like, yeah, my wife and I play tennis, we go jogging, we do such and such, and I'm sitting there like yo, natalie, and I don't know, we don't have anything in common. Like we just like we both like movies. Is that a thing, as I'm coming to realize? Like the thing that we needed in common was being in Christ and we, we both believed God loved us and we love God. You know air quoting that thing Because our hearts like always wanted it, but yeah, we didn't, we didn't know. And so hearing you or you're saying, yeah, it was all good, Like you were engaged for you know an amount of time, but the day you got married you're looking at this thing and you're like, yeah, we're good, Like feeling good, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for like five seconds. Because life got really real right after marriage or right after the wedding. Because so all these things that I was hoping I would grow out of or eventually stop doing, stop wanting, desiring they hadn't gone anywhere, I hadn't replaced any of the lies with the truth, and so marriage honestly got pretty difficult, even from the first year. From the first year, I think, we were both kind of like oh, is this it? Oh, no, like we're not. Compatibility go like why isn't this working? And so all the self protective measures I had taken before still, you know rose up again in my life, because that's what I had always done, and so could you get moments.
Speaker 1:Could you get practical with that for a second, like I wanted to like? You don't have to give me every detail, but like in your first year, what are some of the lies? That you're married now and you thought that you know this wouldn't be happening or you wouldn't have this thought, but it's still there. Can you give me an example of something like that?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I felt in my marriage like I was not a desirable person, and so in those moments I thought marriage was going to cure me of that, that I would get married and, because someone chose me forever, I would never question again if I am desirable. And that is not what happened. I continued to question if I was desirable, except at this point, it's just, with only one person in front of me, but I still. I still did not believe that I was worthy of affection or intimacy, because I still had those same questions even in my marriage. And so, and any actions that he took not even I would never, ever put any like blame or anything on the actions or his actions or behaviors but if anything even remotely reminds me or made me feel or I took to mean, you know, oh no, like you're not, you're not that great, nobody wants you I would take it there. Because that's the thing with these lies is like it's a narrative that you keep reinforcing, and I remember learning this like your, your brain, your brain, doesn't always know when things are real or when they're just a fantasy, when they're just a narrative, a story that you've actually created or that someone else has fed you. It's not even real. And so even stories and narratives that you keep replaying in your mind, like I'm not desirable, I'm not someone people want to be around, whatever it is, you'll start to believe that. And any, any narrative, any actual, real story that doesn't fit that narrative, you'll make it fit. So, even in a moment where I'm like, oh, he does love me, he does want to be around me, he does want to hold my hand, I would make it. You know something else, for the moment it would be great and I believed it. And then in the next moment, I'm like, yeah, but he's probably never going to do that again, like this is just a one time thing. And then every other story that even remotely fits within the narrative you've already created, it is just like I said, it fits right in, it's just magnified. So, um, yeah, let me sense.
Speaker 1:So in many ways you were seeing him through how you saw yourself.
Speaker 3:Definitely. Yeah, I was. I was seeing everybody that way.
Speaker 1:If he did something to make you feel undesired, maybe he wasn't because he didn't desire you, it just felt that way. It just reinforced this thing. Oh yeah, that's true about me. Because he did that and you couldn't give him the benefit of the doubt that maybe he wasn't doing that, did you? Were you angry at him for not making you feel a certain way?
Speaker 3:Definitely yeah. At first, you know, in the first year or two of marriage, you're not trying to rock the boat too much, so I wasn't as vocal about it, but eventually I was for sure I would let him know how I felt about the things he did and I would ask him to, you know, change certain things about himself or his personality so that I would feel then desired. It's so crazy, Like I just was so desperate again to be chosen that I was like, completely like in those moments, even this is, you know, this is the real. Again I can see this as a free person. I'm not ashamed that girl's dead. But even any moment where I felt like, okay, you know he doesn't want you, I would then fantasize about a scenario where someone would and like sometimes it was a real person that I knew, sometimes it was just this idea of a person. But always going back to this is what your life could be like if you knew 100% of the time that you were loved and that you didn't have to do anything to earn that love. And I would always go back to those thoughts over and over again, which is really dangerous to romanticize and fantasize about other you know people or things, in an effort to then feel something that you do not feel in your own relationship, or just feel something period, that you know, something that's a burden, a human being that's never supposed to be like. It hit me so hard, actually not too long ago, recently, how I had been so desperate for that my whole life, when God had chosen me, like God so desperately wanted to be close and tight with me, that he sent Jesus so that, through the Holy Spirit, we would never be separated ever again, that we could be completely united. And so I'm here, spending my whole life like somebody want me to desire me, to use me. I want to, I want to know without a shadow of a doubt. And then here is Jesus, the whole time, like I came to this earth and I died for you. That's how close I wanted to keep you. Like choice, you have no idea I wanted there to be nothing between us. The ultimate affection, the ultimate intimacy was always there for me to believe and to trust, and I just had no clue. It was like there was a filter, avail completely over my whole life that kept me from seeing that what I had so desperately desired was always available to me and it would be on someone who could take it, on someone that would never be anything other than someone who chose me and wanted to keep me close. So it's that's why it's it's it's such a burden for me to share my story, my testimony, especially with girls, because I know that life. I know the life of romanticizing relationships with men that you don't even know, in the hopes of it meeting something about you. I know that life of of doing things to prove you know that you should be picked and chosen and what that means and how it just, completely, like blinds you to what is actually real and true, which is that there is a God who loves you so deeply that he, straight up, like became man, like sent Jesus so he could be here on earth with us, so that we could finally understand how much he wants us and chooses us every single day. Like we're not just oh yeah, like they're good enough, like we are just completely stunningly adequate to him, like you are completely enough outside of anything you do, and because of Jesus, you've been made ridiculously righteous. So forget any idea of trying to earn. Improve this narrative in your mind. Like let go of all the other narratives, be free from those things. This is the truth. I love you. I have set you free to now move in and live from love, and it'll shake and shift every, every filter, every veil gone when you see yourself in Christ in the way that he's always meant for you to see yourself.
Speaker 1:Mercy. So you're? You're living in these lies, You're. You don't know where to place blame. You're blaming others, but the heaviest blame is on yourself for not being enough. What? What happened next?
Speaker 3:So I am trying to find my identity in anything that I can like, hold on to, and so within our marriage is. This is my early 20th. I married at 24. I think so, from 24 to 30, pretty much. It's, you know, working. It's been eventually starting a gym and starting this community and really falling in love with being a trainer and coaching and finding all this purpose and identity there. It's still in finding, you know, purpose and identity in my marriage, even though it wasn't always the greatest, even though it did. We also went the same way as my parents and started actively being independent from each other. I was okay because I still had like the gym, like it was my baby, and so if something was going on in one aspect of my life or my marriage, it was cool because I had this dream job of mine, investing in these people day in and day out, and but everything that I had then found my identity and eventually was stripped through. You know a series of events that happened over the course of about maybe six to nine months. We ended up selling our gym to a partner that we took on, and it was something that I didn't. I didn't want, I didn't desire that. It was against my will, it felt in the moment. So all these people that I had poured into my baby, my gym, I was no longer able to. I lost my dream job. You know, my, my people, my tribe, my fitness was wrapped up in their two. That spent four years, you know, getting stronger and getting fit in a way that, like I had spent so much of my life like not feeling beautiful. And so then I found fitness and I was actually something I thought I was cured of. That was like I've always hated my body, but now I found fitness and now I'm, I'm lifting, and now my confidence is actually in what my body is capable of. This is so great and I remember I used to actually share the story over and over again and actually resonated with a lot of women where you shift your focus from what you look like to what your body is capable of. In the gym you can lift heavy and like all this stuff. That seemingly sounds really perfect and great and beautiful, but I was still a very performance based. It was still like because you're strong and your fit and you compete, you know now you are good. So once we lost our gym, I could not like even touch a barbell without experiencing incredible anxiety because I thought that who I, this picture of myself I built up, was just completely lost and gone and know whatever, see me as the girl I used to be. So we have, you know, fitness competitor identity completely smashed. We have identity as owner, coach, trainer smashed. We have moving outside of my community and we moved to California at that point, not being around my tribe, the people who I was accustomed to building me up because they were incredibly supportive and affirming as well. And then we're getting to the space where both of us are with feel broken, both of us feel damaged, both of us feel like we don't know where to go. And so also in our marriage, things started to get really hard because now neither of us have anything that our identities were tied to. So the only that we can do is either sit in our hurt and our pain as we like, try to grapple with what to do next, or find one of those things you used to self medicaid with and try to feel better about where you're at and in effort to make it through. I didn't see option number three at the time at all. There was like a glimpse of freedom. I was reading this book called the search for significance and that was Holy Spirit for sure, because I don't even remember who told me to read that book, but because I was struggling so much with anxiety and depression at the time, someone recommended that I read it, and that's when I first started to read things like you are deeply loved and completely forgiven and fully pleasing to God. And I remember writing it all over this little whiteboard I had and putting in my phone and actually started repeating it to myself daily because I really wanted to believe it, but I wasn't letting it hit over land that was still so focused on. It was like this and that I'll read this over and over again and start to understand what it means to not find my identity in those things. But I still need this other thing on the side, because it's the only way I can feel good. And so, as I said, like marriage gets really tough and the lies I used to believe of myself just became magnified as I no longer had other things to tether me to the affirmations I used to receive. So I started to do what I used to do and fantasize about a life outside of my marriage where I would be chosen forever, and one act of desperation to another to fulfill that desire to be loved and wanted led me to stepping outside of my marriage completely and being unfaithful to my husband and cheating on him, which led to complete devastation and destruction and unimaginable pain from everyone involved. But that was where I just completely got to the end of myself, because before that again, I had no idea how each step and each thought was taking me closer and closer to actually being someone capable of doing what I had done, like I had to learn. I learned in those moments how, like your thoughts that aren't even always your thoughts, not every thought that you have is yours, but the thoughts I was having because I was believing them, even though they weren't from my father in heaven he would never say those things about me I let those thoughts become emotions and then I let those emotions become actions. I didn't take the thoughts captive at all. I didn't know how, I didn't know what to speak over them, and I have been so obsessive with being this person that I wanted to be that it led me to making a decision knowingly. That's the thing with guilt and shame, like you said. Like it didn't, it didn't keep me from it and, at this point, the rules that I love so much as a kid that kept me safe. The rules didn't keep me from it, because my understanding of what my heart was, you know, my understanding of who God was it, made me feel like this is the only way I have to then prove this and earn this, even if this means, in the process you hurt people and in the moment you don't know, in the moment you're so blinded by this desire for intimacy that you do it just to ease the pain. And so, yeah, it was a ridiculously difficult time in my life, but all of the lies I used to believe led me up to that point, one moment at a time.
Speaker 1:So, in thinking that this would make you feel a certain way, or make you feel like you're going to the well because you're thirsty and you want to drink. And then you realize, like how soon afterward did you realize, yo, the water's gone bad, like this was bitter, like this was a huge mistake. How long afterwards?
Speaker 3:Oh, immediately, like the next day, for sure. So even in the middle of it, when it was just text messages here and there, I remember having this very visceral moment in my car with God, where I knew that I was leaning into that drug. I remember bawling my eyes out, begging, crying out to God, please stop me. I knew what I could because I had done it before, so I knew where I was leading and I was like God, I don't want to have these desires for someone else who's not my husband. Please stop me. You have to stop me, I can't. Because it felt like in the moment you can see the cliff and you have every desire to not go over the cliff but also simultaneously like no, I have to see what's on the other side of that. I just have to. It's such a weird space to be in, but again, it's that veil, it's that filter that just completely enveloped me. But in the midst of it I was already having those moments of like and I even reached out to a couple of family members to tell them not the whole truth, but a little bit of the truth enough so that they could also try and stop me. But because I didn't give them the whole truth. They didn't really know what to say to me to try to get to stop me. But as soon as it happened, immediately I felt all of the guilt and all of the shame and all of the condemnation and all of the like. Oh my goodness, what did I just do? I immediately moved to try to cover it up, like I wish I could say that as soon as it happened I was like I gotta tell my husband. But that's not what happened. It was an immediate move. How can I keep this quiet from everybody in my life until I die? Because as soon as anybody knows this, I will be a cheater forever. Because I was one of those people who thought it's so weird. I was one of those people who thought always once a cheater, always a cheater, and I didn't necessarily apply that or assign that to myself, even though I knew that I wasn't being completely honest in my relationships up until I got married. But the way that I viewed other people, it was also the way that I viewed myself, and it works the other way too. The way that I view myself is the way I view other people, which is why it's so important that you know who you are in Christ, that you know how God sees you and where he positions, in, places you, because then you can extend that same value and beauty to the other person. I only see people in value and beauty now, and that was not the case before. I would see them the way that I saw myself, which is the way that I thought God saw me, and so I'm remarried now to a wonderful man, and Will, and I have yet to have a conversation of what are you going to do to make sure you don't cheat Again.
Speaker 1:We haven't had a conversation about Hold on I want to get to that, but this idea that you thought once a cheater, always a cheater, but it was separate from you. How did yeah. Talk about that a little bit, just a little more like you're, you still saw yourself as no, I'm making it, just explain, I don't want to put words in your mouth. Explain how you saw that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, I think I just, yeah, I wanted to see myself as good, so hard that I didn't necessarily I didn't apply that title to myself until that moment. So, even though I hadn't been honest in my relationships, I think I had justified it, because the guy maybe didn't treat me that great, or maybe he did make me feel uncomfortable and asked me to do things I didn't want to do, whereas in this moment I had to take full ownership of what I had done. There was no, I wasn't even sympathizing with myself anymore, whereas maybe before I was and then this time I was not. So I had seen everyone else, for the most part, once a cheater, always a cheater, and once I had fully stepped into that title that I had given myself, I then believed the same thing about me. So if I cheated, if I am a cheater, I am now always a cheater and must do everything within my power to make sure I never cheat again.
Speaker 1:So when you go immediately to hide, it was your long range plan, just like I'm going to the grave with this and I can just erase it. What was your game plan with that?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So the perfectionist in me was willing to live in shame for the rest of my life if it meant that I would not hurt anybody else more than I already had, and if it meant that I didn't have to be seen as a evil, cheating, conniving, toxic, all these things that I would have never wanted to label myself with. I was just sure they were coming my way, and so that was what motivated the hiding. I was like I don't want to hurt him any more than I already have by doing what I had done, and I also would really rather not everyone know what I did. So my plan was to take it to the grave.
Speaker 1:So how did that plan work out?
Speaker 3:It did not, because very soon afterwards he discovered he went through my phone and saw some notes that I had written. That made it very clear that I had definitely done something, and once he confronted me with it, I told him everything. But that was about a week or two after it actually happened. So, yes, the information came to light and it was not because I disclosed it, it was because it was found out, which of course makes it worse. You read all kinds of books about infidelity. When you have been unfaithful, the only thing to talk about is if you tell them, usually it's a lot more likely they'll stay with you. But if they find out on their own, they will probably not statistically. And so in that moment even I was like okay, so let's okay, we're going to pack on the shame and the guilt, because that's the only posture I can take right now. I have nothing. I have nothing, I have no value. All like. The best thing I can do is to beg and grovel and plead and convince this man that I do love him, that I did not mean to hurt him, that I'll never do it again, but all these things still not having an understanding of who I was and so they came from a very just another place of desperation. Like he didn't believe me in the moment either, and I don't blame him, because at that point in time I was moving in desperation, at all times. I was moving in desperation towards that moment where I wasn't faithful and I moved in desperation toward trying to keep my husband from leaving me. And he recognized that immediately and so he promptly left and from that point on it was sitting in this space of what do I do now with this life that I have dropped a bomb on? You know now I'm a cheater, I'm guilty of this. Let me move into now what I thought I needed to do at the time, which was okay. There's therapy, there's verbal therapy, let's try that. But then it's also like girl, like beg and plead, like promise your whole, everything you've never wanted to do before, everything you, you know, everything he's wanted you to do that you've never like promised your entire life. Beg and plead, and then do the exact same thing with God Beg and plead for forgiveness until your knees are bloody, like every day. Confess it over and over and over again, ask for forgiveness, repent over and over and over again. This is your lot in life. Accept it, this is just who you are now. Move in that way and maybe, maybe, just maybe, god will forgive you and so will your husband. But in the meantime, keep going through that whole cycle of shame and guilt, condemnation, until you feel somebody forgives you God or your husband.
Speaker 1:How long were you on that train?
Speaker 3:Weeks, for sure, possibly a couple months Now God, in his infinite mercy, sent a couple really great friends of mine my way that, actually only a few days after my husband had left, called me up and started to speak everlasting life over me in a way I had never. I had never received it. I can't say I'd never heard it, because so much of what they were sharing was in the Bible. But I had never received it because I hadn't seen myself in the gospel and so it was just so outside of me. And now I'm sitting in this moment where, like, god didn't need me to be here ever. God would never place us in a situation where now she'll learn her lesson. No, like he didn't put me there, but he totally used it. That moment where God was like, okay, you don't have the things that you used to find your identity in. So now you were quiet enough to listen to what I have to say about you. But even in those first moments when I was first hearing the things like you are a daughter and you are holy and you have the Holy Spirit, you've been made righteous. God has no longer counting your sins against you. Hearing that over and over again, like it took me a while to actually believe it, and so it was almost like the truth was working its way through all of the layers of lies that I had created, and so I had decided to really dig into this stuff and to start to understand how God saw me and what he wanted me to know about who I am now, and it took a little while. It took probably a couple months to actually wake up to the reality of who I am in Christ and then to start walking that out. But many, many very intense but equally romantic moments happened between me and Jesus on the floor of whoever's house I was in, who was housing me, because I had to move out of our apartment since I could no longer afford it on my own, and so I was pretty much couch hopping for a few months and claiming the resurrection power of the Holy Spirit for the first time in my life and really sitting there agonizing, crying over tears of joy over these truths that I was discovering about God seeing me as pleasing to him and, at the same time, agonizing over this cannot be true, this can't be real. Like so. It was a weird space of. I want to believe this so deeply, but how can I when I've done this? It's just a lot of layers to work through. Eventually, the lies that were no match for the truth, and I was able to awaken to that new reality of mine, which is that when I look at the cross now, I see love there and I see this man who chose me. And the moment where I read in Isaiah, where he looks at us and says you're mine, that was that moment again, that deep desire for intimacy that I believe is God in us. God given, that deep desire for intimacy could only be satisfied through the one who created me. And in that moment where he said to me what I had wanted every other man to say to me you're mine, I choose you. I heard Jesus say that to me and it was a wrap. It was like the lies just one by one started to completely disintegrate and any change I had tied to those started to just disappear, one at a time. And again, that led to many, many romantic moments with God and experiencing intimacy with him for the first time in my life.
Speaker 1:It sounds like this happened pretty quickly, like from this dark desperation, like the marriage is being over, it's over and your friends come. And how soon did they come in contact with you and what was the first thing that you had to unlearn? That they were, that they were telling you.
Speaker 3:Good question, so my friends contacted me.
Speaker 1:Are they friends? I feel like I might have them as mutual friends.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the first thing, you know, eddie and Jela go to Nejo. Yeah, you're right. So they actually knew like Spirit had stirred them up instead of called Joyce up, like they didn't even know what was going on, mercy, they just felt like, yeah, they Spirit was like call them up. And so they had called up my husband and talked to him and then they had called me up next because they knew they know that both of us and I want to say that was honestly, I mean just a couple of days, because he yeah, it was actually my 30th birthday is when he left, and so that's why it's stuck in my memory and he called me on the night that I was going out to celebrate with some friends. So, yeah, it was literally maybe two or three days after my husband had left. They called me up and I remember, like yesterday I was sitting on a couch in a blanket, just like completely in this hole, and the two things I remember the most clearly from what they were telling me is that I was a daughter and I was, and that I shouldn't continue to refer myself, refer to myself as a cheater, like not to refer to myself as something that God had already freed me from and the reason why it was so hard for me to understand in a moment because I'm like how? I mean, I just did it, I'm not free from this thing. It literally just happened so to not call myself a cheater because I'm free from it, like that's wrong, that doesn't make any sense. And what they were trying to, you know, teach me in that moment, to get me to understand, was that I'm only like a slave to it because I think that I am. I only feel like I'm a cheater because I think that I'm a cheater. I only feel like I'm capable of doing that again because I think that I am those things and I would just believe that, because of what was accomplished at the cross, I had been freed from sin, I had been freed from any desire. That is contrary to my original intent, what God intended for me and my life, like moving through his love, through this world, and all of that like it was. If I believed that I had been set free from those things, then I could live that way. But I refused to believe it because it seemed wrong, it seemed false. So they had told me that you're a daughter. Don't refer to yourself as something that God has freed you from. And then they also, you know, had asked me intentionally, like you know, have you confessed this? Yes, I've confessed it to my husband. I confess it to God many times. And I already started to go into like I'm really hoping God will forgive me, and that was the next thing they addressed with me. They were like hey, like God does not need you to continually ask for forgiveness over and over and over again, you were forgiven a very long time ago. Like this is you live, forgiven now, right? And so also something I was very unfamiliar with was that, like my status as a forgiven human being, so because of their history, I don't know if you knew very much about them.
Speaker 1:Did it hit harder for you or were you more skeptical?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it hit way harder for me for sure because I didn't know their history. I had known them since college, so we had known each other for years and years at that point, and then we ended up also in Michigan at the same time and so we were very much involved in each other's lives. So I knew their story, I knew what they were going through, and that was probably my first encounter of like what it looked like to see people living free in Jesus. I remember thinking to myself watching you know them walk in this freedom and I'm like I don't get it, like I don't know how they can feel so confident in that they're going to be okay when everything in their life is seemingly falling apart. Like how do they do it? And it was that testimony that I think kept me open to. I don't know that I believe what they're saying right now. I don't know that it's true about me, but look what God did in their lives. Like if he can do that there, then he can restore whatever you know, this big, huge mess that I made. He can do that. It just I believed that much, but it was the truths that I had to allow to wash over me continuously. Those are the ones that it took me a little bit longer to be able to live out.
Speaker 1:So I know what they said to you that your daughter, that you are forgiven. What is the first thing that you actually believed and then became kind of a bedrock for this to jump off.
Speaker 3:So the first thing that I believed was that I was loved and fully pleasing to God, because for me, living my life in a very performance based way, that was the truth that like shattered all the other truths the fact that I didn't need to earn or prove myself to God, that I could just be like I worked so hard. It's exhausting to every day be anxious because you're not sure how your behavior and your talk is being, or your speech is being, perceived. It's exhausting. So the idea that I could live pleasing to God in every moment of my life, knowing that I will always be loved by him and that because of Jesus and because of my faith and trust in Jesus, I have been made righteous, it's crazy. It's like I believe so hard that if I did these things, I would be right with God and with man and with people around me. And so I'm trying so hard not to mess up and do selfish things and to be more loving, to be more, you know, a peacemaker, all these things, trying really hard to be those things and then failing miserably at them because of how hard I was trying to earn them, and then now living in this new reality of no, I've been freed from sin. I trust that. I believe I've been made righteous, I trust that. So now I live and move from love, I'm no longer wondering, questioning will I be loving today? No, because the one who lives in me is love and you know. Going back to this question we mentioned previously earlier, like this idea of you know, are you ever like, how do you know you're not going to cheat again? Like, how do you, how do you, how do you safeguard that? Like, what do you do to make sure? Did you go to therapy? Did you do the work, the mental, the self work? Like, did you get that done? Because, like, watch out, you might do it again. But it's crazy, like when you are completely, when you know you're completely loved abundantly, like we all are by God, you love that same way and love only esteems someone else's value as equal to yours. So, in love, because I can see someone else and love them completely, like I said, see value and beauty before I see anything else, see them as a son and daughter before I see them as anything else, or I don't even see them as anything else. Because of that and my trust in what God has said about me and them. I can live my life not concerned with whether or not I'm going to hurt someone again in that way or cheat on my husband or anything like that, because I've been set free by love and that's the only way I know how to move now. So the language of you know, making sure I don't do it again, the language of that sin and that deception, I just don't speak it anymore. It's gone. I speak my father's mother tongue and his tongue is of love and I speak that all the time. And so this whole idea of like, try not to sin anymore, be super sin conscious, that's just. That's not the way that we have to live. It's not the way to live anymore. I know that because I live in love. I'm not worried anymore about falling to those old patterns and behaviors because it's contrary to what my father has said about me and about them. So why would I want to position them or myself in that way? I know better now. When you know better, you do better.
Speaker 1:So, in these few short weeks after this whole thing has fallen apart, you're starting to get established in the finished work of Jesus. It's getting more and more established. Were lies still coming, and what did you do? As if they were? How did you deal with it?
Speaker 3:Yes, the lies were definitely still coming Because, like I said, I believe the enemy would rather, I mean, he didn't have to work really hard. I'd been believing those lies for a long time, so they just kind of came back, because they were a narrative I had built in my own mind. But yeah, he'd rather me be really selfish and continue to be focused on myself instead of on loving other people. Well, and so the lies did come back, but now I knew what to do. Now I didn't let those thoughts land. I would take them captive with the only thing that works, which is the truth. And the more I spoke that truth over my own life and reached out to other people around me who also knew what truth to speak over me in those moments, the more that became the new narrative it was then. This is my default setting. My default setting is that I expect these things from God. I expect this out of like from myself, because this is what has been spoken over me that I am free from sin, that I am someone who loves first and always, that I am someone who sees other people by their value and not by the things that they do, and so, and then I am forgiven all those beautiful, beautiful things that were being spoken over me. I also learned how to speak them over myself.
Speaker 1:Wow. So, as you kept on becoming established in this whole thing, what, what, what, what, what was happening Like, yeah, so how about in your work life? As you're moving past this, you're being established in true truth. So how did what you believe about your, your work life and your perfectionism like how did it affect that?
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, so my perfectionism just disappeared. It's crazy, like something that I had. Just I told myself, like your perfectionist is just who you are. This is your personality. You'll always be this. It started to disappear because so I'm actually at this point in a new job. So I actually started a new job a month before my husband left, before I cheated and I was like I didn't have a whole other thing. It's like I didn't have any family in California. I had a few friends. New job, a tough job, my first year as a personal trainer, and I was just, like you know, having to learn all these new things. And so I was in the beginning, you know, hiding those parts of myself. But when I tell you that, the moment God pulled me from hide these vulnerable you know parts of you, hide these parts that aren't, you know, as pretty as everything else. And he pulled me out of that and was like no, you're free. Like you know, don't worry about defending that girl. Like she's dead now, like you have a transformed heart. So here's what I needed to do I need you to share and you to testify, and that is exactly what happened. So, in my field of work, I was in a big, huge jam like 12,000 members, plenty of opportunities to meet people. I'm in many moments. First they were coming from moments of like despair because I was showing up to work even though I had just been crying in my car and we're someone to be like are you okay? What's wrong? And I would just tell them everything. There was no more. Even in the moments where I was still having a hard time believing the truth, I was already shame, had already been like starting to get pulled from me, like God was already removing that shame. Because even then I was like, yes, I'm crying and this is, this is why this is what I did. And then as soon as I stopped, you know, moving from the space of woe is me look at all the things that I lost and moving to this place of I'm okay, my heart is good, I live in abundance, god is with me and will never leave me. Then it just became like opportunities to testify to his goodness and his faithfulness. So at work, I was getting so many awesome opportunities to share what God had done in my life and honestly, it was pretty cool for me to. As evidence of my transformation was that I was sharing what I would consider to have been the worst thing I've ever done. Daily with strangers and coworkers that I see every day, and I had no concern over what they thought of me or what I had done, because in that moment, I needed them to know what God had done, like I wanted to, and I remember writing this in a journal and just reading it yesterday actually how, in those moments, I was like God, I want to give you the platform I need you to. I want you to get the glory from this. Like, look what you did with my life, look where you took me from. So, at work, it was awesome to be able to get that chance to show people like, look what he did. Like yeah, yeah, that's, that's what happened. This is my story and, yeah, that was crazy and terrible and hard. But look at what Jesus did and how I am just completely alive and him, and that was pretty cool.
Speaker 1:We're, I feel like that's everybody's story who receives this thing. It's like, yeah, we get super extra Like and we're just like sharing stuff that old, old selves would like want to hide in a treasure chest under the sea and nobody ever open it. And now we're just like you know what I did? I did this thing and people, but that's not the real story. The real story is how he saved me from it, and people are just like what are? why are you telling me this? And then the ones who need it, they grab onto it Because they're hiding it. You know they're hiding whatever they've done. Yeah. Did you get like a mixed bag of reactions Like what was, what were some of the reactions you were getting?
Speaker 3:I mean not to my face. For the most part, people were like either, like it would start with surprise, shock and awe. They're like I can't believe she's telling me this right now. Okay, this is happening, I can't believe this. And then it would turn to like whoa, she's just like not that person anymore and it's not her own place of like. You know your husband, forgive you, I forgive you, I love you because you're you. It was like they were seeing that too, like they were seeing their own, like for those that actually knew me my coworkers they had love for me already, so they were able to see me in that way as well, but they were also seeing that like I wasn't living in shame and I think that was stirring something in them. They're like we don't really know how she does this, but it's beautiful. Like we don't really know much about this Jesus she's talking about, but man, if he's real, like he's legit, because she's not the same person she was before. And so for the most part, it was met with thank you for sharing, like it's amazing how far you've gone or how, like, where you came from and where you are now. It was also met with a lot of questions for share, because it's LA, and so there's a lot of spiritual people, but not necessarily very many religious people, and we would connect on even those moments where they would think to their spiritual journey and figuring out what truth is for them. And then I would say like, hey, like I had a similar experience. It was the Holy Spirit. Like this is what he did in my life. He's the one who knocked down one lie at a time. Like my friend would come up to me. She's super spiritual and she says something like you know, nothing is ever really lost right, like anything that you don't have it's just because it's not for you. And it'd be like, yeah, like that's really true, and like I could see that on an Instagram post. And I'm like, let me tell you why that's true for me, because I don't live in lack and I believe that every good and perfect thing comes from God, and I believe that I lack no good thing and I live from this place of abundant love and peace and joy, all the fruits of the spirit. So, yes, I agree too, but for me it's living in the spirit. Or, as for her, it was, you know, along a different journey, but to me it just proved that, like, the spirit is moving and working and there are those who are learning very similar truths as I am, they just don't know that it's Jesus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, mercy, I was really aware. They just don't know that it's Jesus. So then you're okay. So you're, you're is firmly established. You're moving. I want to stop at a certain point, probably around Portland is where I want to stop. But is something that? Is there something that happened up till then? Any more truth that was revealed, that you're just like hmm, Tell me about that restaurant. That's the story.
Speaker 3:The coffee shop.
Speaker 1:That's what I said.
Speaker 3:The coffee shop, the prayer I was like wait, is there a restaurant? Yeah, yeah. So after you know I'm one of all these truths, I asked my friends if I could be a part of this awesome ministry, love Reality tour that we're just going around speaking life and speaking truth and just like pure, unadulterated gospel over everyone. And I was like this is the stuff I've been learning, like I want to come to this thing. And so I went out to a Love Reality tour event before we were still meeting in churches all over the world and there were things called churches, and people met at them. Yeah, we were there for like 10 days, crazy, yeah. So I went and I'm like this thing is so. I mean, if it's real, it's crazy, like this is so good, it's way too good. And then seeing it, like you know, in front of my eyes, it was crazy, because I'm still like at the moment, like I was free, but like I was, there's some stuff I was unpacking, but then I was there to also speak life. So it was amazing how, even in that moment, like Spirit was like you, like I used to believe so hard, is one of those lies that manifested. I used to believe so hard that nothing to say, like no one wanted to listen to me, like no one ever want to hear what Joyce has to say. And even this moment, I'm like, oh my gosh, like I get to be here and just testify of the Spirit and testify of his love for us and testify of my freedom, and I'm like that's enough and it just reinforces, like if you don't ever say anything of any other value ever again to anybody, you can still tell Jesus or people that Jesus died for them and that he loves them, and like that's enough, like if they know that they're good, if they believe that and trust that they're good. So I'm having all these moments where Spirit's like yeah, you're good, I need you here. Like you're not just, you're not an option, right, like I have believed so long, you're an option. And then Jesus is saying you're not an option. In fact, like I need you here, you are essential. Like there is a incredible need for your contribution to the kingdom of God, and this is you here to do that. So that's an aside, but it was really cool how God was like I love you and I'm breaking down these lies. But also let me affirm this one truth that you've been learning and show you that, like this is this how it plays out in your life. So I'm going to. So we went to this coffee shop in between and we're talking about that same thing. Like okay, guys, I need to make sure I don't cheat again, because you know I'm loving this freedom thing that I'm learning about. I want to do this, I want to live this way, but how do I ensure that I don't hurt someone like that again? And so I pretty much was asking, like are there any books that I need to read on this? Should I go back to therapy? Is that the best idea? And my friends, jonathan and Eddie, you know we're both like, yeah, like you could do therapy. It's helpful to have, you know, unbiased opinions, someone there to speak good things. But also like, did you know that the spirit can actually reveal those things to you? Like, reveal to you why you believed that thing, reveal to you what you believed and then also lead you into all of the truth about what you should now, you know, walk into and believe. And I'm like, okay, that sounds awesome. I am someone who lived most of my life until recently not knowing what the Holy Spirit does or really who he is, what it is, anything like that. And so I'm like man, I really I want this to be true, I want to hear from the Holy Spirit, I want him to tell me stuff that sounds amazing. And so, you know, jonathan is like, well, let's pray about it, let's pray for it right now. And I'm like, okay, still sitting in this light, small little space I had given, for maybe you're not that free, or like maybe you're not that transformed, and thinking like, oh man, if the Holy Spirit doesn't say anything to me, like they're going to think this is fake, I'm a fraud Like this is terrible. What if he doesn't speak already, applying this pressure, which is another lie? He just knocked down with his foot. But so Jonathan is praying and we're in this coffee shop it's all busy, we don't care, we're praying and he's praying that the Holy Spirit revealed to me who I am, the lie, even why I believe that lie. Right, and we're praying and I'm like, okay, god, you know, please say something. He says amen, we open our eyes, and the moment I open my eyes is when this memory comes back to me, completely downloaded and recalled. It could only have been the spirit, because it was a story I shared about the church situation when I was a young girl and they were assigning our values from the way that we looked, and I hadn't thought of that story in like 20 years. And then all of a sudden just came out of nowhere and I knew in the moment that that's where the lie had originated, which I thought was pretty dope, that the spirit loves me that much that he's like Joyce wants to know this information. She doesn't need to know. It's not that she's free, but she wants to know it and I'm going to tell her. That's where the lie originated. And then he also revealed what the lie was, which is that I was not worthy of intimacy or love unless I performed for it. I have to look a certain way, I have to say certain things, I have to do things with myself, with my body, in order to garner that intimacy and to earn it and prove it. So that's the lie, joyce. That's the lie that you can confess now. And here's the truth. You've never had to earn or prove anything with us. This whole thing you've been doing was trying to prove your worth. In every room and space you try to enter and take up space in, and you're like you have to prove that. No, god is saying to you you don't have anything to prove anymore. This life is your victory lap. This is how you live, like from overwhelming victory. It's crazy. So I compete and cross fit and most of the time you show up to a competition, competition, and you don't really know who's going to be there. But you assume that there are people who are pretty much as fit as you, or fitter or stronger in certain areas maybe you're stronger and others. But you assume, like I have to work super hard so that if my goal is to win this competition I win. But he was teaching me that like living from that overwhelming victory that Paul talks about. It's like walking into a competition and knowing you had already won. Like how do you act? Like you're not afraid, fear is gone from, like you are completely confident in who you are. Because why would I be afraid? I already won, I'm going to podium, guys, I know this for sure. And so you go into it just to be you. You just allow things to be what they are. You're not trying to prove a thing anymore, and that's what he was calling me into live from there, live like that. And so, once all of that was revealed in that prayer and so from the Holy Spirit. And so, first of all, it was really cool to hear all that. And second, I'm like, oh my gosh, I heard from the Holy Spirit. He's super real and super dope and he loves me and I love him, like it. Just, it was this cool. It was an amazing thing to now have this relationship with, with the spirit. Even it was really new for me, but I liked it.
Speaker 1:No, that's that's crazy. That's that's so beautiful. What, what time? What, when was that? What year was that? Was that 2019 fall?
Speaker 3:That was in 2000, and what?
Speaker 1:year are we at now. We're in 21.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that was 2019. April 2019.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I got maybe two more questions for you. Has the as time has gone by, has this been it was at a spiritual high, or is that a mountain top experience? Or what has been going on just with you and your understanding of the of the gospel since then?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm going to start. I've already cried like four times in a crack and I have been living out the most beautiful romance of my life, like when I think, when I process that, like I have been completely filled, like this whole concept of like the fullness of God, like you being living in that fullness is so crazy to me, but like that's the best way I can describe it. Like every day, somehow I get more full, like there's no, it's not, like a spiritual high and then it's gone and you're down again and you relearn some lessons and you, you know, get back to and I even I used to think that that's what it was, even after I had started learning about this freedom, because I remember one time I was still believing the lie that I was fraudulent. It was that the imposter syndrome that is in of itself a lie, to the point where I actually would hide from my friends and from the people I was doing ministry with, because I felt like nobody wants to hear what I have to say. And so even in that moment, I was actually talking to Jonathan about it, because he called me. He's like what's going on? Like we haven't where have you been, and I'm like I just have to hit the reset button, like I have to start over, because you know this isn't the other and he's like you know, I said a reset button and just just believe what you know about yourself. Right Like, there's no reset, you're still free. Like you're not. You're not like hanging out in and out of spirit. Right Like so. And once, once that hit me and I forgot it, I was like, yeah, that's true, and so I completely believe and live this way now that, like I am just, I'm always completely loved and aware of that love. And it just every day that I think that it can't get any sweeter and the gospel can't get any better. And you know, I can't possibly understand another depth of God's love. For me, it still continues to happen, like the more I read the Bible, the more I spend time in secret place and I just allow God to talk to me, my father speak to me, and spirit is leading me into truth and like it keeps getting better every day, like it's wild and I'd never, I had never known that life. I thought my Christianity was an effort to convince God I was good enough to stay and to get myself into heaven, and that's what I thought being a believer was you to get myself up there. And then I'm like, but that's not what it is, it's being who he says you are. And like, go out and tell everybody about it now, because you can't stop talking about it, but be who you are. That is it. So there's no high. I just. I just live in this continual like oh my gosh, god is so good and he's so faithful, and I have to tell someone about it. I just have to.
Speaker 1:All right, and this is a good way to say way to my final question Tell somebody about it. You have either a time machine to go back to Joyce at age 15, or, if you'd rather, talk to a 15 year old, through college age girl now, and I want, I want the message that you're going to give to that girl. What's the message?
Speaker 3:The message is that Hebrews 10 says that you've been made perfect, so trust that you are complete and whole. You no longer have to prove your worth, your value, to anyone. You are ridiculously righteous through your belief and trust in Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and God's love has just outrun anything and everything. You could possibly do, any lie you could believe about yourself. His love for you has outrun all of that. So believe who you are In Christ Jesus, believe what has been accomplished at the cross and that you have been so loved and chosen and desired by Jesus that it's going to ruin you. For anything else that is a counterfeit version of that, for anything else that even tries to come close, it never will. You have been effectively ruined for every man you thought you would be into. God's love for you knows no end, and when you believe that, you will then live like it.
Speaker 1:Marcy. Well, joyce, I think we're going to have to have you on again. We'll talk about that later. But your testimony, I mean all of these testimonies are from death to life. There are. I mean, we were dead in our transgressions and we have been raised in newness of life, but yours is just as powerful, for it's just. It's just different and we are blessed to hear it and I know people are going to be blessed. You're a testimony. So thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:I can't wait for the rest of the story, but we're going to have to. In Jesus' name, I'll be back.
Speaker 3:You let me know, alright, thanks, so much, joyce.
Speaker 1:Love you, appreciate you. I'm curious. Love you Unlike you, Jesus I.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna go shoot. Can't stop till we make it to the moon. It's too late, can't stop it. It's a boom. Know, I cannot wait till you approve. I got people with me on the other side. Spirit on me too bright. I see they tryna ride. Coming out for the night yeah, this that come alive. Coming out for the fight? Yeah, we stay alive. Hey, stay alive. Hey, hey, put your hands down, we ain't coming questions. Yeah, we been down. Creed, I am a don is wash the hands now. Went from thinking broke to living rich now, hey, bustin' with the twos you watch me slide now she look kinda bougie and she bad now. Hey, mama think I made it easy brawl now, hey, hey.
Speaker 4:Hey holla, when you ready, come and see me Working all day, working all night.
Speaker 2:Do it for the kids and for my city. I can not fall out of the light. Spirit on me. Once you come down, all the demons let them know. Outside us we been around Pony bogeys. They ain't go Lookin' at me. What do you see? Shoot the shot. Kod only talk holy things. I'm a prince. That's where I came 23,. Check the rings F-O-G on my feet, on my soul. Jesus Christ set me free. Only motivation on me. Now it's heavenly. Lot of people tryna drain me Utterest energy. I talk to God, told me people's not my enemies. I'm cut in ties with the spirits. Tryna play with me. Hey, finna, go shoot. Can't stop till we make it to the moon. It's too late. Can't stop it, it's a boom. No, I cannot wait till you approve. I got people with me on the other side. Spirit on me, too bright. I see they tryna ride Coming out for the night. Yeah, this that come alive. Coming out for the fight. Yeah, we stay alive. We stay alive. Hey, hey, hey, hey. You.